I haven't blogged about the raging blogosphere controversy arising out of the hiring by WashingtonPost.com of former Redstate.org blogger and Republican operative Ben Domenech because I have not had much to say about it. I thought the hiring reflects some highly questionable editorial judgment, given that Domenech's writings are trite, rage-fueled rants filled with mindless talking points which one can find anywhere -- he aspires to be some sort of juvenile online Rush Limbaugh -- but WashingtonPost.com has the right to associate itself with that level of writing and analysis if it wants. And while there are some journalistic issues raised by the supposed need for "balance," others have discussed that issue thoroughly.
But now that it has been conclusively demonstrated that Domenech is guilty of a long pattern of repeated, deliberate and extensive acts of outright plagiarism -- routinely lifting paragraph after paragraph verbatim from other people's articles when purporting to write his own -- this little episode does now illustrate a significant dynamic worth commenting upon. Most Bush supporters have no behavioral standards of any kind and will defend any behavior at all -- no matter how venal or corrupt -- as long as it's engaged in by a fellow Bush supporter. Allegiance to the Bush movement outweighs every other attribute, and renders acceptable, even justifiable, even the most dishonest and reprehensible conduct.
Plagiarism is a serious and destructive offense. It has nothing to do with political views or ideology. Copying someone else's writing and claiming it as your own is deceitful, fraudulent and wrong. It is stealing. And Domenech is clearly guilty of that -- deliberately and repeatedly.
But Domenech loves George Bush and works as a Republican operative. He worked for Sen. Jon Cornyn, was a RedState regular, and edited Michelle Malkin's book. So behavioral standards don't apply to him. By definition, nothing that he does can be wrong -- certainly not that wrong -- because he's a person at his core who is incapable of doing anything truly blameworthy, and the proof of that is that he is a Bush supporter. As a result, in the face of this truly disturbing and facially conclusive evidence that Domenech is a serial plagiarist, his comrades at RedState are searching around desperately for some rationale to defend and justify his conduct, literally insisting that there is nothing wrong with overt acts of deliberate plagiarism.
I first began writing about the NSA scandal when -- almost immediately after the New York Times had disclosed the program, literally the day after -- I began reading in the blogosphere all sorts of twisted, plainly uninformed "legal" justifications from Bush followers as to why the eavesdropping the NSA was engaged in actually has nothing to do with FISA, how it's not even the type of eavesdropping covered by FISA.
There was one particular "legal theory" created by a Bush follower who deliberately misquoted FISA in order to create a facially false claim as to why FISA does not require warrants for the type of eavesdropping Bush ordered -- a justification that was instantaneously disseminated far and wide by Bush lovers such as Instapundit, a law professor, whose only desire was to find some justification for Bush's behavior before having any idea if the behavior was justifiable. That justification was never even raised by the Administration and was quickly discarded once revealed as fraudulent, but the speed and disregard for the truth which characterized its instantaneous adoption was truly amazing.
What was so striking in that case was how immediately these defenses were concocted and spread like some aggressive virus. Bush followers had no interest in knowing whether the Commander-in-Chief broke the law. Their sole interest was in hunting around desperately to find some explanation as to why he did nothing wrong -- before knowing if he actually did. He is George Bush, and he therefore can do nothing improper, or if he did, it is for good reasons and therefore should be defended. And that ethical shield extends to all Bush followers.
That same standardless, ethics-free mindset is thus painfully apparent with Domenech's plagiarism. Domenech is a Republican operative, Malkin editor, and Bush supporter. He is inherently ethical, and any charges that he has done anything improper are to be rejected regardless of the evidence and without even waiting to consider it.
RedState's Leon Wolf initiated the defense-at-all-costs of Domenech by first claiming that he was only 16 or 17 years old when these offenses were committed and this outright, extensive plagiaraism was merely an innocent and understandable matter of not being "fluent in APA guidelines for blockquoting and attribution." Once it was revealed that some of this plagiarism was actually quite recent, when Domenech was in college (he's now 24), Wolf shifted his defense to the only thing he had left -- an outright justification of plagriaism. Wolf explained that he recently read a book and:
Since I've read that book, I've been chewing a lot of the ideas in my head, and I'm sure if you read over my posts from the last month, you'll find me saying things that are on the surface very similar, and it's possible that I may have even used some identical turns of phrase (although this certainly was not intentional and I didn't have a copy of the book in front of me while writing any of the aforementioned posts.) That's not plagiarism, that's being influenced.
All the same, Ben can answer for himself on these issues. I stand by my original comment in this thread, however (I think it's number three), and will continue to do so even if someone produces a videotape of Ben doing everything they've accused him of - because none of what he did in his teenage years, even if we grant that it is all true - will diminish from the truth and strength of what he is doing now.
There are now posts up at RedState entitled "We Must Defend" and "We Must Attack," insisting that Domenech did nothing wrong and demanding that Bush followers defend him regardless of whether he did. The former actually claims that all of this seems like plagiarism "only because permissions obtained and judgments made offline were not reflected online by an out dated and out of business campus newspaper"-- as though all of the magazines and journals in which his plagarized articles appear, including magazines such as National Review, really did arrange permission with all of the authors from whom Domenech stole but simply forgot to include that permission. They resort to every excuse, every justification, every false defense in order to shield their comrades, or, like Michelle Malkin and Powerline, who were eager to defend and praise Domenech before he stood revealed as a serial plagiarist, they say nothing.
It is a base, tribal mentality where group allegiance cleanses any and all wrongdoing and immunizes the individual from any accusations of wrongdoing. We have seen this play out over and over with every Bush scandal, where no conduct is too extreme and too facially wrong to be beyond their willingness to defend it away and justify it. If you support George Bush, you can do anything -- including stealing, like Domenech did repeatedly and extensively -- and still be defended, because your allegiance to the Leader means that anything you do is good, right and justifiable. That is the mentality that has been governing our country for five years now, and it is vividly apparent with this tawdry debacle.
UPDATE: Pro-Bush blogger Patterico commendably comments on the Domenech scandal, admitting that, at the very least, it is an "embarrassment." He also says he is "suspicious" about RedState's facially ridiculous defense of Domenech that the newspapers simply forgot to include all of the permissions they obtained for Domenech to lift all of that material. And he points out:
We all talked up the fact that this guy was getting a blog on the WaPo. This is a genuine issue, and it should be discussed on conservative blogs.
We'll see if his fellow pro-Bush bloggers heed his invitation for this discussion.
UPDATE II: Credit where it's due - other right-wing bloggers have now condemned Domenech's plagiarism, including Political Pit Bull and Confederate Yankee. Dan Riehl says that "if the facts are as they appear - Ben Domenech has to go. And the sooner the better." Riehl adds:
If the plagiarism allegations are true and RedState and other notable right wing bloggers stand behind Domenech - it won't be because of principle. It'll simply be a classic example of cronyism and connections getting in the way of the truth.
Indeed. How much longer can Red State go without retracting their false claims in defense of him and acknowledge that their founder is a serial plagiarist? How much longer can bloggers like Malkin and Powerline who defended Domenech remain silent about this, particularly Malkin, who called Domenech "[m]y very smart and talented editor, Ben Domenech, of Regnery Publishing."
UPDATE III: I think we also need to be hearing quite soon from Hugh Hewitt, since Domenech also edited his latest book. Hewitt says about him:
Domenech is a superb writer/reporter and very well wired on all things conservative. He's also coming to his job from Regnery, where he has just finished editing my new book.
This strikes me as a very significant story now. The founder of RedState and Regnery editor (who, among others, edited the latest books of Michelle Malkin and Hugh Hewitt) is a serial plagiarist, and Red State is issuing factually false defenses to justify his behavior.
Domenech has been skyrocketed up the movement ladder quickly because his father is a well-connected Bush loyalist and he has obviously learned the art of limitless and ethics-free political warfare. In many ways, he's a poster child for the Bush movement. And the fact that WashingtonPost.com hired him to be one of their in-house bloggers in response to right-wing pressure, while his allies defend even his most indefensible conduct, is quite a case study of so many significant things.
UPDATE IV: Michelle Malkin steps up with a commendably forthright post condemning the serial plagiarism of her book editor and opining:
I certainly understand the impulse on the Right to rally around Domenech. But I can't ignore the plain evidence. And the charges can't be dismissed as "lies" or jealousy attributed to Ben's age.The bottom line is: I know it when I see it. And, painfully, Domenech's detractors, are right. He should own up to it and step down.
She closes, however, on a sour note:
Then, the Left should cease its sick gloating and leave him and his family alone.
The pro-Bush blogosphere has built a name for itself by viciously swarming around vulnerable people and trying to end their careers. Ask Dan Rather. Or Eason Jordan, whose career death Malkin celebrated here:
The MSM calls it a lynch mob. I call it a truth squad.
The likes of Powerline, Instapundit, Capitan Ed ("I think we all can take some justified satisfaction with our small part in changing the world tonight."), and Hugh Hewitt all engaged in an orgy of self-congratulations over their tireless, and ultimately successful, efforts to destroy Jordan's career. And we can now undoubtedly look forward to some more pious intoning from that same corner about the horror of lynch mobs and feeding frenzies and the like.
Well, are any of us even remotely surprised by this?
ReplyDeleteAnother fine example of the media's aggressive program of affirmative action for wingnuts. The great irony is that the more conservatives the 'afraid to be called liberal' media brings in to mollify charges of bias, the more voices there are making that charge. It's a vicious cycle and they don't seem to catch on.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who still thinks conservatives want balance, fairness, objectivity or anything short of a completely one sided propaganda stream really has not been paying any attention at all for many years. As the emperor himself said, you are either with them or you are against them. There is no such thing as objective reality to a conservative. It's an irrelevant, obsolete and even immoral concept.
You call this behavior 'tribal,' and what we've seen, over the past ten(ish) years is the emergence, or at least refinement, of a new ethnicity.
ReplyDeleteEthnicity, of course, is not static: ethnic identities emerge, change, and fade all the time. ('Palestinian' is a good example.) The American Right has transformed from a political philosophy into an ethnic identity: this is why blame is so important, to identify and degrade an 'other', against which they can self-define. The key to Fox News's success (for example) isn't that they are right-wing, it's that they allow viewers to abdicate all individual responsibility by placing blame on the hated other, whether it be liberals or child-molesters.
I think any person with an intact sense of ethnicity known the awful sense of personal queasiness or even pain when a member of their ethnicity is attacked. Jews, blacks, Koreans, whatever: to the degree we're embedded in our ethnic identity, we react defensively to criticism of the group. Perhaps once we develop a certain level of maturity, we can separate the criticism of an individual (OJ Simpson, Perle and Wolfowitz) from criticism of the group, but that's still pretty tough. And most of the American Right has yet to achieve that level.
There's no reason to be amazed by the right's 'casting out' of anyone who criticizes Bush (their most visible co-ethnic) or their inability to admit the failings of a member of the tribe. Those would be astounding if the right were merely a political movement, with policy goals--but it's nothing of the kind.
A rational person might imagine that one could publish an insulting cartoon of Mohammed without sparking violent riots--but that person doesn't understand the power of ethnic identity. A rational person might imagine one could criticize the president for breaking the law (and there's a word for people who break the law: criminal)--but again, that person doesn't understand the power of ethnic identity.
To criticize the President, or his supporters, is a personal insult, and causes real pain to his supporters. That's how a vigorous (yet defensive, and very frightened) ethnicity functions. There's nothing strange here. Regrettable, yes. But not strange.
We like to argue about the genius-or-otherwise of Karl Rove. Far as I can tell, this is the sum total of his 'genius': he understands that he's fighting an ethnic battle, not a political one. The 'truth' of John Kerry's military service (or any truth, really) matters only politically, not ethnically. When dealing with ethnic conflict any excuse functions as well as the truth--even a transparent excuse. What's important is not to reveal truth, but strengthen identity.
Gussie
dread scott: I would actually go a bit further: Anyone who still thinks the corporate media want balance, fairness, objectivity or anything short of a functionally one sided propaganda stream really has not been paying any attention at all for many years.
ReplyDeleteOK, that might overstate things a bit ... but not much.
Isn't this similar to the right's attack on "bleeding heart" liberals? Liberals were accused of dismissing any bad behavior because a person was poor or a minority. Now the right uses one's belief in Bush or, for that matter, one's religious beliefs,as a reason to look past any bad behavior. Somehow I think giving a poor person the benefit of the doubt is a little more understandable than looking the other way for some priviledged college educated kid.
ReplyDeleteYes, the Washington Post has a right to associate itself with a “juvenile online Rush Limbaugh” but the real question is why would they? The answer: fear. They did it in an effort to shield themselves from the on-coming onslaught from Bush operatives as to why they are undermining the troops. Their response: hire a true Bush cultist.
ReplyDeleteBut hiring young Ben (whose teen-age mistakes that are dismissed as irrelevant are a mere four years ago) will not begin to stop or stifle the attacks against them from the propaganda machine, and as Joe Conason points out, it will only serve to “damage its credibility substantially.”
In short, whenever the mainstream media tries to accommodate the Bush cult – they lose. This phenomena happens to the press and the Democratic Party and it’s a lesson they seem to have a hard time learning.
Glenn writes, “If you support George Bush, you can do anything -- including stealing..” well, that applies to lots of other things besides words too. Corruption is rampant – even epidemic within this administration
That’s why Republicans cannot allow Democrats to take control of either house, because to do so would result in investigations into the chronic crimes the administration has committed and continues to engage in. As Kevin Drum points out today, the real fear of the cult is subpoenas, “If they lose the ability to block Democrats from conducting genuine investigations backed by the subpoena power of Congress, the jig is up. And they know it.”
In the meantime, they’ll have their Limbaughs openly calling for the expulsion from the country of anyone who speaks out against the cult.
Here’s the man who gets a big hug from Bush at the White House Christmas Party, and who our president refers to as a “national treasure”:
Wouldn't it be great if anybody who speaks out against this country, to kick them out of the country? Anybody that threatens this country, kick 'em out. We'd get rid of Michael Moore, we'd get rid of half the Democratic Party if we would just import that law. That would be fabulous. The Supreme Court ought to look into this. Absolutely brilliant idea out there.
That’s what the cult does. That’s what they’ll continue to do, no matter how much they are accommodated. Appeasement is not the answer. And, unfortunately, the Washington Post just demonstrated just how true that is.
Good points. A lot of today's fake conservatives have a fake libertarian streak too. They want the laws to be very strict and they want punishments to be severe, but they also think that laws only apply to bad people, and they're hurt and angry when they're expected to obey the law themselves.
ReplyDeleteThey also see debate as a contest like basketball, so if one thing doesn't work, they try another. Ideas are like strategies and tactics, and you keep running them by until you find one that works.
In basketball, that's cool. If the inside game doesn't work, they try the outside game, if the fast break doesn't work they slow the game down.
With ideas, however, every time you use an idea you theoretically commit to it. So if you end up saying "We don't know whether he really did it or not, but he probably didn't, but if he did do it it wasn't illegal anyway, and if it was illegal then the law was unconstitutional, and anyway it's no big deal really, and Clinton did it too, and maybe we should change the law just to be on the safe side...." -- at a certain point people understand that you're just trying a succession of tactics without really caring much whether anything you say is valid.
Or some people, anyway. Actually, Republican hacks can be pretty successful with this kind of swarming tactic, especially when the media have abdicated their critical function.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"You call this behavior 'tribal,' and what we've seen, over the past ten(ish) years is the emergence, or at least refinement, of a new ethnicity."
I like your post and the points made. I liken what is going on though more to a cultist behavior rather than being tribal or ethnic.
Cultists are inherently more intolerent and defensive than even tribal or ethnic groups IMO.
Shameless justifications of outrageous behavior? Attacking those who point out the obvious misdeeds? Self-aggrandizing statements? There is a flavor of the sociopathic or criminal in the behavior of the right wing. Maybe the most useful analogy is to a criminal mob.
ReplyDeleteWe saw this propensity to justify lying and deceit in the recent Fitzmiller case in Pennsylvania. There, it has been shown that people who opposed the teaching of evolution in the schools lied and perjured themselves on the stand. Their reasoning, no doubt, is that anything done in the name of (Xtian) truth is justifiable.
ReplyDeleteI suggest that these acts are part of a larger, religiously based ideology. It goes back at least to Pat Robertson, who wrote then that the religious right should run "stealth" candidates. These would run under the radar of the press and the public, hiding their true agendas. Once in office, they would then implement that agenda behind the scenes.
This strategy is part of the campaign recently outlined by Kevin Phillips in his book on conservative Xtians and their political machinations to take over democratic political processes.
This group believes that they are morally and ethically pure because of their faith in Jesus. Much like Lenin's professional revolutionary, they believe that they must take over the government and thereby lead the less motivated, deluded masses into the promised land.
To call them "tribal" is perhaps Glenn's way of capturing the emotional and psychological depth of the phenomenon. To characterize it in such a way does seem to reveal the irrational elements, but it does not capture the more orchestrated and strategicly planned aspects of the movement.
It's fascinating to see their changing justifications. My favorite is the Henry Hyde defense: "It was a youthful indescretion."
ReplyDeleteSo how long will the Washington Post
let the bleeding continue?
Everything you said is right on the money. Another part of this is that any criticism, however justified and supported by unconstestable facts (or, in the case of NSA, even admissions) is painted as shrill liberal whining. They cannot win the debate on the substance of the argument, so they contort it into a battle of identities, as you rightly point out.
ReplyDeleteThey cannot win the debate on the substance of the argument, so they contort it into a battle of identities, as you rightly point out.
ReplyDeleteThis is what Richard Sennett has called the personalizing of politics. It's a consequence of the loss of the public sphere and the tendency in modern life to insulate and retreat into the security of private affairs.
Youthful indiscresion? Just a kid? Didn't know?
ReplyDeleteDid this "kid" not have to write a report in school at anytime and learn what the grade would be when they just copied word for word out of the book? I remember going through this lesson as early as 4th grade.
I remember my class being upset that one student got an A because her parents let her cut up the National Geographic! No one cuts up the National Geographic.
Why do you refer to him as Leon Hess (he posts as Leon H Wolf, which I believe is his real name)?
ReplyDeleteAs a professor, I would point out that plagiarism is not just a question of getting permissions, but the passing off of other people's work as your own. That is, not providing attribution. Getting permissions for each paragraph you quote is not necessary as long as you attribute your quotes properly. Colleges have very clear statements about this in their student handbooks (ours has several pages along with examples of what is plagiarism). If conservatives are trying to shift the debate to the difficulty of getting permissions then that is a red herring.
ReplyDeleteWhile Bush supporters (or at least politicians and bloggers, I think the public is less knee-jerk) are very good at supporting each other at all costs (because they've long realized it's an effective political strategy, imho), I think the practice of circling the wagons is not unique to them, so Glenn's implication that it is typical of Bushies is incomplete. He needs to say somethig like we all do it but the Bushies are past masters at it.
I never thought that American conservatives would be the ones to bring back Stalinism.
ReplyDeleteHow convenient for him to be an editor, he'll be able to plagarize other people's work before it is published.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you refer to him as Leon Hess (he posts as Leon H Wolf, which I believe is his real name)?
ReplyDeleteThat was completely an accident, which I just corrected. Leon Hess was the owner of the New York Jets. Who knows how those wires got crossed? Some things are best left unexamined.
If you are keeping tabs, Don Surber knocked down the Domenech hire even before the accusations of plagiarism came up and is collecting posts about him in his latest post. And he uses the same template as you.
ReplyDeleteDivorced one like Bush said...
ReplyDelete"Youthful indiscresion? Just a kid? Didn't know?
Did this "kid" not have to write a report in school at anytime and learn what the grade would be when they just copied word for word out of the book? I remember going through this lesson as early as 4th grade."
Remember that this kid was home-schooled. Quite possibly his teacher didn't think plagiarism was any big deal.
LOL on Glenn's reference to "his comrades at RedState".
Plagiarism is a serious and destructive offense. It has nothing to do with political views or ideology. Copying someone else's writing and claiming it as your own is deceitful, fraudulent and wrong. It is stealing. And Domenech is clearly guilty of that -- deliberately and repeatedly.
ReplyDeleteI agree. I have very little sympathy for the ongoing series of fabrications and lies being put out by the NYT, CBS News and other major media outlets. I am certainly not going to cut any slack for one of my fellow conservatives.
However, apart from this gotchya, what are you proposing be done, if anything, as a result of this plagiarism?
Are you suggesting that this is grounds to silence this person's blog?
Would you suggest the same for the NYT, CBS and the AP?
I personally will just look at this person's writing with less credence than before.
Indeed, you are crazy if you don't take everything you read in the press and the blogosphere with a healthy dose of skepticism.
If anyone is looking for evidence that home-schooling and Republican upbringing breed anti-social, deviant, behavior, look no further than Ben Domenech.
ReplyDeleteWay OT but a great op-ed by Madelaine Albright in todays la times http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-albright24mar24,0,5251258.story?coll=la-home-commentary
ReplyDeleteBen D. is not the problem, he is the symptom. Digby does a good job at expounding this today:
ReplyDeleteDigby
The WP.com is obviously looking at becoming the online version of Fox News. Brady is the reason for this. Not to mention that the GOP is trying to position people like Ben in outlets that give him credibility for the upcoming blitz on Immigration.
Blogger outrage isn't going to stop this. The money flow rules all.
For more insight into how Box Turtle Ben's hiring was a total, mindless sop to the GOP overlords, see talkingpointsmemo. Josh has chronicled the connections between the senior Mr. Box Turtle, the Interior Department and Abramoff.
ReplyDeleteI've always heard what a small town Washington is, but man... It's truly remarkable how this generation of GOOPers are the new Tammany Hall.
bart:
ReplyDeleteAre you suggesting that this is grounds to silence this person's blog?
Of course. It isn't his personal blog. It is the WP.com's blog.
Ben can write whatever he wants. But if the WP.com doesn't want to be associated with a thief, then they shouldn't keep him on the payroll.
This is self-evident.
Would you suggest the same for the NYT, CBS and the AP?
When they start to plagiarize, then the reporters should be punished.
Gasp! They have!!
Naturally the Right Wingers will defend him.
ReplyDeleteThis is the old Soviet logic. The Party and the Great Leader can do no wrong. Detractors are traitors; critics are against their country--The inside enemy must be put down as forcefully as the outside enemies, our very survival depends on it--those who are against me are enemies, etc. etc.--will they soon demand punishment?
The same twisted personality traits return to the same twisted mental patterns to rationalize the world.
The real problem is why so many people want to be taken into the fold.
And I thought the venality, dishonesty and outright despicability of those who continue to defend Bush couldn't become anymore obvious. And these people, many of them anyways, actually pretend to be Christians?!? What's it going to take America?
ReplyDeletea blogger that steals the work of others? well, sure it happens more than we admit...
ReplyDeleteAll good points, but the main thing is that this mans integrity and racist attitudes are coming out.
The evidence of this will not go away (ARCHIVE EVETRYTHING IF YOU CAN PLEASE). Perhaps someone can set up a dedicated Web page to fully document problems in the past and anything that comes up in the future.
Any one blogger is fooling themselves if they think the masses are following them. Consider yourself lucky if you can sell T-shirts.
Sure, raise hell, but in the end, whether or not he is forced out of the project is not that huge a deal -- his ability to sway people's attention has been GREATLY reduced.
He will be nudged out eventually, when WP can save face.
Glen -- OT, but relevant to the NSA/Feingold issues, so you may want to discuss this in a future essay:
ReplyDeleteBUSH SHUNS PATRIOT ACT REQUIREMENT
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/03/24/bush_shuns_patriot_act_requirement/
In addendum to law, he says oversight rules are not binding
By Charlie Savage, Globe Staff | March 24, 2006
WASHINGTON -- When President Bush signed the reauthorization of the USA Patriot Act this month, he included an addendum saying that he did not feel obliged to obey requirements that he inform Congress about how the FBI was using the act's expanded police powers.
The bill contained several oversight provisions intended to make sure the FBI did not abuse the special terrorism-related powers to search homes and secretly seize papers. The provisions require Justice Department officials to keep closer track of how often the FBI uses the new powers and in what type of situations. Under the law, the administration would have to provide the information to Congress by certain dates.
Bush signed the bill with fanfare at a White House ceremony March 9, calling it ''a piece of legislation that's vital to win the war on terror and to protect the American people." But after the reporters and guests had left, the White House quietly issued a ''signing statement," an official document in which a president lays out his interpretation of a new law.
In the statement, Bush said that he did not consider himself bound to tell Congress how the Patriot Act powers were being used and that, despite the law's requirements, he could withhold the information if he decided that disclosure would ''impair foreign relations, national security, the deliberative process of the executive, or the performance of the executive's constitutional duties."
Bush wrote: ''The executive branch shall construe the provisions . . . that call for furnishing information to entities outside the executive branch . . . in a manner consistent with the president's constitutional authority to supervise the unitary executive branch and to withhold information . . . "
ggr
ReplyDeletea clear and calm analysis of this incident. your style of writing is much appreciated.
i have watched the protective, justificatory efforts of right wing writers, not only on the web logs but in the washington post, new york times, etc.
occasionally i tangle with one of these but i recognize i am playing a fool's gamey since fact, clear reasoning, and intellectual honesty are only occasionally evident first priorities.
my conclusion is that there is some central psychological connection between the types of folks who support the current "conservative" (actually extremely radical) republican party
and loyalty.
i do not intend this as merely a snide comment on the order of "these folks are just nuts".
i am describing (i hope) a psychological-political phenomenon.
in my observation, the loyalty of these folks to politicans and ideas they support is really quite extraordinary and trumps all other values, as the defense of domenesch suggests.
i don't think this fierce loyalty can be explained by money or fawning or desire to associate -
though i don't doubt that many "conservative" voices in the main stream media probably write and say what they do in order to derive financial benefit from their loyal commentary.
but many voices commenting on web sites like this one or in personal conversations in neighborhoods and families, seem to have nothing at all to gain by their loyalty other than satisfaction of some sort.
yet they are loyal before all else.
sometimes i wonder if these folks look at politics like they look at their favorite football team, or, given the season, basketball team.
"my team right or wrong, but my team."
thus, smashing a guy into the rails in a hockey came is just "hard checking". driving a quarterback to the turf on an injured shoulder is just playing tough defense, and if your team's pitcher throws spitballs and gets away with it, well, he's one clever competitior.
but when the players on the other team do this, then the invective streams out.
i also wonder whether those media figures who lead the right wing crowd (actually "mob" is more like it) would change their verbal and wrtitten comments if there was not
a demand from these intensely loyal "little guys" for the type of commentary we hear from limbaugh, o'reilly, tierney, krauthammer, et al.
if any reader-commenters here in the web log world have citations or insights on the special relationship some folks evince between loyalty and political party/political ideas, i would love to read them.
God Is My Codependent said...
ReplyDelete"I never thought that American conservatives would be the ones to bring back Stalinism."
One of the "Hard Corps" older guys (60s) I work with admires Franco and gets livid anytime there's criticism of Bush. When he heard that the ANWAR bill got blocked in the Senate, he said, “No more mister nice guy. You know, Uncle Joe (Stalin) wouldn’t stand for this crap. He knew how to take care of people like this.” Nice.
John Emerson said...
"They also see debate as a contest like basketball, so if one thing doesn't work, they try another."
Politics is a little like basketball. Bush supporters just expect to own the referees and fix the outcome. If you criticize Bush but fail to also include information that they believe undermines your position, they holler about your lack of objectivity and fairness (that they feel no compunction about lacking themselves). If you've been legitimately fouled, I explain, maybe you get a free throw. But you don't expect me to shoot it for you too!
Zack quoted Rush Limbaugh:
ReplyDelete"Wouldn't it be great if anybody who speaks out against this country, to kick them out of the country? Anybody that threatens this country, kick 'em out. We'd get rid of Michael Moore, we'd get rid of half the Democratic Party if we would just import that law. That would be fabulous. The Supreme Court ought to look into this. Absolutely brilliant idea out there."
By "speaks out against this county", I would assume that Rush means "president Bush". He certainly didn't hold that stance when Clinton was in office because he lambasted Clinton every time I heard him, which admittedly was not that often. I wish those who held one position when Clinton was President ("Rule of Law", "loyal opposition", etc.) would hold to the same standards while Bush is President.
BTW, what do they think is "fair and balanced", Fox News? They're obviously uninterested in any kind of balance, but want to continue bashing the "liberal media". The only thing that would make them happy, of course, is that all media spew the conservative agenda. They have no interset in true objectivity.
Keep in mind yesterday several commentators (on a completely different thread) spoke admirably about how William Buckley supposedly 'purged' anti-Semitism from the National Review and the Conservative Movement. Ignoring the dubiousness of such an assertion, the fact the Right now uses such terminology as a matter of reflex or second thought should give you an idea of how far they've slid in recent times.
ReplyDeleteBart said:
ReplyDelete"I agree. I have very little sympathy for the ongoing series of fabrications and lies being put out by the NYT, CBS News and other major media outlets. I am certainly not going to cut any slack for one of my fellow conservatives."
What fabrications and lies Bart? That is a serious charge so point to one please that has been put out by a major media outlet.
"However, apart from this gotchya, what are you proposing be done, if anything, as a result of this plagiarism?
Are you suggesting that this is grounds to silence this person's blog?"
You purport to be a lawyer Bart. Surely you should know that plagiarism is subject to civil lawsuit.
"Would you suggest the same for the NYT, CBS and the AP?"
Yes I would think a civil lawsuit appropriate if they were found to be plagiarising someone elses work
I think the practice of circling the wagons is not unique to them, so Glenn's implication that it is typical of Bushies is incomplete. He needs to say somethig like we all do it but the Bushies are past masters at it.
ReplyDeleteI think you’re missing Glenn’s point completely. He’s saying that whatever conservatives do can be justified as long as they support Bush. He is talking about the general extremism we are witnessing among cult supporters – anything goes – in terms of rhetoric and behavior.
Is Jane Hamsher no different than Ann Coulter (as a confused John Cole implies today)?
Really, there is no comparison. This isn’t about circling the wagons when attacked, it’s about the basic behavior that caused the wagons to be circled in the first place.
Did bart actually post an entire comment that had no prevarications nor misrepresentations and (the horror!) actually made some sense? LOL.
ReplyDeleteNext we'll have mon/atia suggesting that arbitrary police home invasions and the ritual sacrifice of women on the altar of blastocyst worship are bad ideas.
The liberal project lives!
But seriously. Everbody counts in the battle here. Which is about the Constitution.
This may seem like a non-sequiter, but this reminds me of the Rather/60 Minutes forgery business.
ReplyDeleteIt was the wingnuts who rapidly identified the forgery of the documents (and that speed has left me suspicious of the source), but the moonbats (fair is fair--if I'm gonna say "wingnuts"...) very quickly recognized, accepted and supported the very clear evidence that the material was forged.
I can't decide whether actually being concerned about the truth is an advantage or disadvantage in today's political atmosphere. For the last five years, flat out, transparent lies repeated over and over again have been the best plan for obtaining and exercising power.
This is just one more illustration.
Since Glenn brought this issue into rpominence on his blog, I thought his readers might wish to know the status of the Mearsheimer/Walt article on the pro-Israel lobby. Harvard has now caved in to pressure and removed its logo from the footnoted version of the study. They've also changed their disclaimer, which effectively ostracizes the authors from its academic fold. See Helena Cobban's posting on this action by Harvard
ReplyDeleteOff topic but IMO important enough to post here this morning.
ReplyDeleteWe just came off the Dubai port scandal and now this:
Excerpted from:
Today: March 24, 2006 at 7:10:56 PST
U.S. to Contract Foreign Co. to Scan Cargo
By TED BRIDIS and JOHN SOLOMON
ASSOCIATED PRESS
WASHINGTON (AP) -
0323dv-port-security One of Americans' favorite beach destinations, the Bahamas, is getting a new U.S. arrival - sophisticated equipment to detect radioactive materials in shipping cargo. But U.S. customs agents won't be on site to supervise the machine's use as a nuclear safeguard for the American shoreline that is just 65 miles away from Freeport. Under an unusual arrangement, a Hong Kong company will help operate the detector.
The Bush administration says it is finalizing a no-bid contract with Hutchison Whampoa Ltd. It acknowledged the deal is the first time a foreign company will be involved in running a radiation detector at an overseas port without American customs agents present.
Its billionaire chairman, Li Ka-Shing, has substantial business ties to China's government that have raised U.S. concerns over the years.
"Li Ka-Shing is pretty close to a lot of senior leaders of the Chinese government and the Chinese Communist Party," said Larry M. Wortzel, head of a U.S. government commission that studies China security and economic issues.
"One can conceive legitimate security concerns and would hope either the Homeland Security Department or the intelligence services of the United States work very hard to satisfy those concerns," Wortzel said.
A U.S. military intelligence report, once marked "secret," cited Hutchison in 1999 as a potential risk for smuggling arms and other prohibited materials into the United States from the Bahamas.
Hutchison's port operations in the Bahamas and Panama "could provide a conduit for illegal shipments of technology or prohibited items from the West to the PRC (People's Republic of China), or facilitate the movement of arms and other prohibited items into the Americas," the now-declassified assessment said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/23/AR2006032301991.html
ReplyDeleteHere's Howard Kurtz. He's got 16 paragraphs about the controversy over inflamartory posts and only 1 that mentions the plagiarism (and it seriously downplays the extent of it.)
It seem the WaPo just can't stop shooting itself in the foot repeatedly.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5353
ReplyDeleteMore condemnation from wingnut bloggers.
He is George Bush, and he therefore can do nothing improper, or if he did, it is for good reasons and therefore should be defended.
ReplyDeleteThe King may be deceived by corrupt, incompetent or venal Ministers, the King-in-His-Person may be mistaken, for example, about whether his cravat complements his trousers, but the King-in-His-Majesty by definition cannot err.
Throw away your Federalist Papers and get a good translation of Bossuet.
Party like it's 1699!
It was encouraging to see that many rabid redstaters were eager to jump into the ocean of contradictions to try to save this rapidly sinking stone. I'm sorry to see that some have the sense or instinct to hold back.
ReplyDeleteI hope somebody is taking notes. This parade of intellectual and ethical bankruptcy won't be worth much if we can't remember to quote these folks the next time they want to offer an opinion on anything.
C'mon, Glenn. I'm by no means a Bush fan or a conservative, but this is the kind of tar-with-the-same-brush behavior I'd expect from Powerline.
ReplyDeleteJust go look at polls which breakdown responses by political affiliation. Those who support George Bush almost across the Board side with him on every scandal involving wrongdoing - from the NSA lawbreaking to pre-war claims that turned out to be false to uncovering a covert CIA operative. Bush supporters virtually always - and, in many cases, always - instinctively defend what he does without regard to whether it's defensible.
Every political movement has its defining attributes and one of the predominant attributes of the Bush movement is the belief that whatever he does is beyond ethical reproach. I watched that happen when the NSA scandal was first revealed - most of them rushed to side with him and defend his behavior as proper before they had any idea what the issues are.
That doesn't mean that every Bush supporter believes that, and I didn't say they did. But it is an overriding attribute and there is polling data and episodes like these which continuously provides the empirical basis for that claim.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletejay: I think there is indeed evidence to show that most people will defend their poltiical views, even when contradictory evidence appears. A recent study shows that people only hear what they want to when it comes to their political opinions. They filter out everything else. Indeed, you yourself seem to support this view in your remarks about Clinton supporters.
ReplyDeleteThis phenomenon could simply be an example of what the philosopher Schopenhauer wrote about in his essay on the principles of argumentation. He notes there the propensity for people to win an argument at any cost--just to win. In general, most people are not disposed to anything resembling evidentiary truth. They just want to be right.
Your comments, and Scopenhauer's, relegate this phenomenon to simple human nature. What I have suggested is that it is not just an eccentric foible of human idiosynchrosy. What we are seeing with the conservatives and the Bushites is a conscious, rational programme to manipulate, deflect, and twist facts to fit overall strategic aims.
That is why I had some concenrs about Glenn's use of the term "tribal." That term puts the calculating nature of this phenomenon to protect the President at all costs too far in the background.
Gris Lobo said...
ReplyDeleteBart said:
"What fabrications and lies Bart? That is a serious charge so point to one please that has been put out by a major media outlet.
Dan Rather's use of forged documents to slander Preident Bush during the election.
The NYT false identification of the alleged hooded abu Ghraib prisoner without bothering to check out his story.
The NYT false story about a "Katrina survivor" without bothering to check out this con artist's background.
The recent AP story alleging that they found a Iraqi tape with Saddam denying that he ever had WMD. In fact,the rest of the tape discusses how Iraq's reports of WMD did not jive with the much larger WMD supplies which they reported.
There is a cottage industry on the blogosphere outing media lies. This current bruhaha over the Red State blogger is just one example.
celo said...
ReplyDeletebart: Are you suggesting that this is grounds to silence this person's blog?
Of course. It isn't his personal blog. It is the WP.com's blog. Ben can write whatever he wants. But if the WP.com doesn't want to be associated with a thief, then they shouldn't keep him on the payroll. This is self-evident.
Bart: Would you suggest the same for the NYT, CBS and the AP?
When they start to plagiarize, then the reporters should be punished. Gasp! They have!!
Really?
I don't recall Rather being fired for using forged documents. Indeed, he was toasted at subsequent press awards dinners for this lying.
I don't recall the NYT firing or even scolding anyone anyone involved in the false stories about the "Abu Ghraib prisoner" and the "Katrina survivor."
What is good for the goose party is good for the gander party.
I might take all this high outrage of the lefty blogosphere more seriously if I saw anything like it before during Rather-gate. Instead, they repeated the Rather-gate lie for weeks after it was exposed.
Those who toss stones...
It appears that Michelle Malkin has, surprisingly, condemned Ben's plagiarism and urges the right-wing blogosphere to resist the temptation to defend him at all costs.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't have thought she'd have it in her.
The argument that he was young and didn't know better cracks me up. He's a writer/editor by profession, for crying out loud. And it's pretty obvious he decided on this profession years ago. So, basically, the wingnuts are arguing that he shouldn't be held accountable for one of the major tenets of his own profession? That's like saying a 24yo economist shouldn't be held accountable for cheating his way through high school math and college econ courses.
ReplyDeleteMalkin has now cut Benji loose as well.
ReplyDeleteAh Benji, we hardly knew ye.
Glenn, you are touching a live wire with this post, now take the next logical step. These folks do not believe they can do any wrong. They do not believe Bush can do anything wrong because they are godlike. This is the form of narcissism cultivated by Karl Rove and to find its genesis please read: Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer. He identifies this trait perfectly as applied to the followers of Mormon fundamentalism. Krakauer's website information about this books is at http://www.randomhouse.com/features/krakauer/index.html.
ReplyDeleteWho would best understand the power of this brand of propaganda than Rove, a Utah Mormon? I do not know if he is of the "fundamentalist" persuasion, but I guarantee he is familiar with the mindset that can engender that groupthink.
A blurb from Krakauer's book follows.
Krakauer takes readers inside isolated communities in the American West, Canada, and Mexico, where some forty-thousand Mormon Fundamentalists believe the mainstream Mormon Church went unforgivably astray when it renounced polygamy. Defying both civil authorities and the Mormon establishment in Salt Lake City, the leaders of these outlaw sects are zealots who answer only to God. Marrying prodigiously and with virtual impunity (the leader of the largest fundamentalist church took seventy-five "plural wives," several of whom were wed to him when they were fourteen or fifteen and he was in his eighties), fundamentalist prophets exercise absolute control over the lives of their followers, and preach that any day now the world will be swept clean in a hurricane of fire, sparing only their most obedient adherents.
Weaving the story of the Lafferty brothers and their fanatical brethren with a clear-eyed look at Mormonism's violent past, Krakauer examines the underbelly of the most successful homegrown faith in the United States, and finds a distinctly American brand of religious extremism. The result is vintage Krakauer, an utterly compelling work of nonfiction that illuminates an otherwise confounding realm of human behavior.
I cant help noticing that no new post have gone up on his blog since 2:00 PM yesterday.
ReplyDeleteI suspect he's toast.
While certainly not all Bush supporters exhibit cult or even tribal behavior that seems to justify anything, it certainly is widespread on many popular blogs and websites, and Red State is no exception.
ReplyDeleteI think a perfect example of such extreme views can be found in their reaction to the release of the Christian Peace activists. This Red State post is called Wasted Effort and the reaction is “Whoo-freakin-pee.”
In other words, all these hard-core-Bush-supporting-Christians support for Christians stops immediately if the those Christians are for “peace” and oppose Bush on the war.
A typical comment: The only peace they support is the right of terrorists to be left in peace. The only evil they see is the United States and Israel.
I am actually saddened that people expended effort on rescuing them.
This is the sort of site it is Red State is. The Washington Post had to know that. Just as “Pajama Media” knew what kind of site Little Green Footballs was when it teamed up with them.
Here’s a couple of their commentators on the same subject:
These are not Christians. They are pinko agitators and RoP sympathizers. Send them back. Or weigh them down and drop them over the ocean.
Bunch of ingrates Then again if you had more than a passing acquaintance with Christiantity rather than the touchy feely BS that passes for "Christian" expressions of faith, you might find that your enemies that you denigrate saved your imbecilic asses. If it were up to me I would have your fellow travelers in the shithole where they were found, be thankful that the coalition forces are more Christian than I am.
Peace pussiesI don't question their patriotism...I just don't belive they have any.
Don’t support Bush – then you are not a Christian, or a patriot. In this sort of cult, tribal mentality, support of Bush is a prerequisite to being a Christian. Scary.
...Rove, a Utah Mormon?...
ReplyDeleteKarl Rove is not a Mormon.
Excuse me while I give attribution:
ReplyDelete"he has obviously learned the art of limitless and ethics-free political warfare"
ha, ha, ha...
Oh, the juicy hypocrisy of it all. And, such an important illustration of the inherent media problems progressives face.
The republican sound machine is extremely effective and corrupt at its core. The Post will hopefully learn something from this mess.
Perhaps a similar story of cronyism, allowing a (former) Republican operative to avoid/delay trial (maybe it isn't, but it is an interesting read): OC Weekly
ReplyDeleteNeed to add fabrication to list.Fabrication to defend Bush's trifecta: 4 years ago, Domenech may have committed "major ethical breach" by fabricating a quote by Tim Russert to get Bush out of a political jam, whether Bush warned public during 2000 campaign that "despite his commitment to a balanced budget, he might permit federal deficits in time of 'war, recession, or national emergency.'"
ReplyDeletehttp://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2006/03/24/domenech_blog/
Patriot Daily: News of the day, just a click away!
Bart:
ReplyDeleteDan Rather's use of forged documents to slander Preident Bush during the election.
The NYT false identification of the alleged hooded abu Ghraib prisoner without bothering to check out his story.
The NYT false story about a "Katrina survivor" without bothering to check out this con artist's background.
The recent AP story alleging that they found a Iraqi tape with Saddam denying that he ever had WMD. In fact,the rest of the tape discusses how Iraq's reports of WMD did not jive with the much larger WMD supplies which they reported.
Wow, you must be really losing it.
Who here is accusing Ben of being wrong and calling for a retraction/correction?
Pay attention, please. Stop putting up strawmen.
Rather and CBS explained their error and apologized. Rather's career ended because of it. You want to attribute malice where there is no evidence of any. And you forget that the documents were only a small part of a larger story, which was proven correct.
The Hooded Prisoner story has been clarified, explained, corrected by the NYT.
That is how journalism works. You try hard. When you fail, you address it, correct it, and try to fix what caused the problem.
But you just want to see malice.
and on, and on.....
All you can show is that the NYT makes mistakes. But then they correct it.
But, nobody is saying that Ben just made mistakes. He plagiarized. He lied. He stole. He is a racist. He has no journalistic credentials.
Do try to keep up, and stop boring us all with your stories on the history of journalistic mistakes.
What you want to compare Ben with is are the cases of plagiarism found in the Post and the Times' history, and what was done about it. And if you can find cases where they didn't address plagiarism, then you'll have a case.
Until then, you are making everyone in this forum dumber.
Lets all get down on our hands and knees to look for Bart's IQ. While we are down here, Bart, read up on what the issue really is.
Hey Glenn - remember all that discussion about whether or not Bush would follow any legislation that required him to subject his programs to any type of over-site?
ReplyDeleteWell I think that question is answered here (I hope you all have seen this):
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/03/24/bush_shuns_patriot_act_requirement/
If this man is not stopped, one way or the other and I mean right now, America is DEAD.
My own take on the "Ben" matter is quite different. I personally think the guy couldn't write for shit, which is evident if you read his non-plagiarized opinion columns for his student newspaper. So, to puff up his cred he stole stuff. Presumably being lazy had something to do with it.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, don't be too quick to condemn us for our lack of comments on the controversy with Ben. Some, like myself, are waiting to see if he addresses it today. If he does not, I'll publicly add my name to those on the right who are asking for his resignation...
ReplyDeleteAnd by address it, I mean substantively and convincingly...
Sorry I hope this works...
ReplyDeletelink
Bart said:
ReplyDelete"Dan Rather's use of forged documents to slander Preident Bush during the election.
The NYT false identification of the alleged hooded abu Ghraib prisoner without bothering to check out his story.
The NYT false story about a "Katrina survivor" without bothering to check out this con artist's background.
The recent AP story alleging that they found a Iraqi tape with Saddam denying that he ever had WMD. In fact,the rest of the tape discusses how Iraq's reports of WMD did not jive with the much larger WMD supplies which they reported.
There is a cottage industry on the blogosphere outing media lies. This current bruhaha over the Red State blogger is just one example."
Do you have any links or the titles of the stories? The only one I may be even faintly familiar with is one about documents concerning George Bush's National Guard service in which there were some documents that were purported to be false. Is that one of the ones you are talking about?
Our issues are not actually with the character defects of anyone -- it is the larger system that elevates these people to enable a repulsive agenda.
ReplyDeleteI just pray that someday we will decide to blog about the actual OUTCOMES of this agenda and how it FUNCTIONS and agree to look past the parade of personalities thant allow the justice to continue.
Not saying glenn or anyone is wrong -- all great points here. Just saying that positive change will require more than dumping on the obvious.
In fact, some believe one reason we see such striking incompetence and corruption is because these folks provide the perfect cover for the entire repug/neocon agenda.
They cannot win the debate on the substance of the argument, so they contort it into a battle of identities
ReplyDeleteSpot on -- the character defects of the gang that gets paraded in front of us provides the cover,
And really, is anyone ready to proclaim that theft of 2000 election, exploiting 9/11 for political gain/profit, enron/worldcom, a war of conquest based on lies, treason, war crimes, crimes against humanity, chimpy's self-proclaimation to be a "war president" will being AWOL from TANG, swiftboating, theft of 2004 election, Social Security Bamboozle tour, medicare, out of control fiscal policy, theft of BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars, culture of corruption, abramhoff, phone jamming......
I could go on and on...
Would any of this have been OK as long as they were "honest" and "competent" about it?
Obviously not...
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteOne device I've found useful for communicating about blog-post-updates to readers is to have a subtitle line like "Updates: N", where N is the number of updates.
This device makes it easy for you the blogger to update the subtitle, using a simple template. This device also is useful to the reader, providing the information to her at a glance whether or not there is something new to THEM.
"Most Bush supporters"? It sure feels that way, but I'm sure you have no quantitative data backing that up.
ReplyDeleteSurely the fact that we are talking about a pResident with historically high unpopularity, even among the lying liars that have overstated his support all along mean something...
Remember, today, chimpy's base actually represents a shrinking minority of Americans -- so just what do you think this gang does not see that the rest of America does?
Please, get a grip...
This parade of intellectual and ethical bankruptcy won't be worth much if we can't remember to quote these folks the next time they want to offer an opinion on anything.
ReplyDeleteExactly -- that is why it may be fun for redstate to keep this lying liar onboard. Not saying its good, just that we can continually hammer this moron...
Karl Rove is not a Mormon.
ReplyDeleteDid someone simply misread or miskey the word, "MORON!"
IMHO, rove is not the genius that everyone talks about him being -- it is easy to look smart with you are singing infront of the mighty wurlitzer and those that "catapult the propaganda" are dutifully playing thier roles.
This was not coordinated by the chimperor, cheney, or rove...
I can look like a great shoplifter too if I have the help of the cashier...
Mr. Greenwald: Your post today is a defining moment. You begin by recklessly charging that the “Bush Movement” (whatever that is, it could range from every citizen of these United States of America to only Karl Rove – but we understand who you mean, sort of) has no standards. You then rage on, pirouetting righteously through a cacocophonous collation of crap:
ReplyDelete”Bush supporters have no behavioral standards of any kind and will defend any behavior at all -- no matter how venal or corrupt -- as long as it's engaged in by a fellow Bush supporter. Allegiance to the Bush movement outweighs every other attribute, and renders acceptable, even justifiable, even the most dishonest and reprehensible conduct... By definition, nothing that he does can be wrong -- certainly not that wrong -- because he's a person at his core who is incapable of doing anything truly blameworthy, and the proof of that is that he is a Bush supporter...that ethical shield extends to all Bush followers”
You conclude with [my emphasis]:
”. If you support George Bush, you can do anything -- including stealing, like Domenech did repeatedly and extensively -- and still be defended, because your allegiance to the Leader means that anything you do is good, right and justifiable. That is the mentality that ... is vividly apparent with this tawdry debacle.”
However, as THE TRUTH plays out, you must eat major crow. Your whole crock dumps on your head as you are forced to recognize that your wild charges are absolutely baseless. To your credit, you fess up like a man.
Beginning with: “Pro-Bush blogger Patterico commendably comments... Credit where it's due - other right-wing bloggers have now condemned Domenech's plagiarism, including Political Pit Bull and Confederate Yankee... Michelle Malkin steps up with a commendably forthright post...”
Intelligent readers must ask themselves: “If Mr. Greenwald can be so sure of himself and so eloquent in his bombastic assurance that he is correct in his baseless charges against his opponents in this matter, what other matters has he similarly bloviated upon that might, in point of fact, consist of the same odiferous material?” Demonizing opponents does no service to the political process of our great nation.
Note: Mark and save the initial portion of Mr. Greenwald’s post as an excellent example of opponent-demonizing for next encyclopedia.
Celo
ReplyDeleteLOL, thanks for replying to Bart. I wasn't up on most of the stories he quoted. You were right on the money with your reply.
DAMN!!!!
ReplyDeleteBen Domenech Resigns
In the past 24 hours, we learned of allegations that Ben Domenech plagiarized material that appeared under his byline in various publications prior to washingtonpost.com contracting with him to write a blog that launched Tuesday.
An investigation into these allegations was ongoing, and in the interim, Domenech has resigned, effective immediately.
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/washpostblog/2006/03/ben_domenech_resigns.html
We would have had a great year with this moron at the helm...
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteKarl Rove is not a Mormon.
Did someone simply misread or miskey the word, "MORON!"
ROFLMAO
Glenn wrote:-- but WashingtonPost.com has the right to associate itself with that level of writing and analysis if it wants.
ReplyDeleteThis may well have referred to the Los Angeles Times after Editorial Page Editor, Andres Martinez degraded the paper substantially when hiring on Jonah Goldberg. In yesterday's column, Goldberg referred to WH reporter, Helen Thomas as a "thespian carbuncle of bile" and described Joe Wilson as "and his very important hair."
The loosening of civility in our society is alarming. Whether insulting Helen Thomas' personal appearance, denigrating one's intelligence or ambitions by the color of their skin or telling someone to "fuck off" in our halls of our government, the spiral of descent is damaging our country and our ability to honest, productive discourse.
And a followup note to the commenters in the claque who initially jumped in bawling about the lack of ethics on the right. Here you have a perfect opportunity to learn some truth. Go to the links in Mr. Greenwald’s post. See what real Wingers say about a real issue. One that is black and white compared to most of the issues we must tussle with today. Liberals have owned the WaPo and the hiring of a Winger was a light at the end of the tunnel for Wingers. You can imagine their disappointment . Some may even, if they are like you, accuse the WaPo of setting this whole thing up, knowing how it would play out, as a way of saying: “See what happens when you try to hire Wingers.” Say, you know what....? Nah.
ReplyDeleteAnyways, here is a chance for the Wingers to step up to the plate. If they do, then perhaps it is time that you lay off the demonization a little, huh? It would be good for America.
Well, it looks like this topic is dead.
ReplyDeleteNow we return to your regularly scheduled program:
SCANDAL CENSURE IMPEACHMENT SCANDAL OH MY THE SKY IS FALLING....
AYEEE!!!!
However, as THE TRUTH plays out, you must eat major crow. Your whole crock dumps on your head as you are forced to recognize that your wild charges are absolutely baseless. To your credit, you fess up like a man.
ReplyDeleteRed State vigorously defended Domenech's plagriarism, lied about it, and are still claiming he did nothing wrong. Red State is one of the few blogs anywhere with a quasi-official relationship with the Republican Party and their behavior, by itself, justifies the post.
There are some pro-Bush bloggers who condemned it, and I posted the ones who did. But I hardly see how that disproves what I said. Most Bush followers will reflexively defend fellow Bush followers without knowing or caring if the accusations are true. There are countless examples where that is true.
Here, some of them condemned the conduct, likely because it was just too extreme to deny and too embarrassing to defend, and because in the scheme of things, Domenech is unimportant and can be thrown overboard for the good of the movement. But I agree that those who condemened him are to be commended and I commended them.
notherbob2 said...
ReplyDeleteDemonizing opponents does no service to the political process of our great nation.
Perhaps I misunderstood what you were trying to say here but...er...umm... it does (provide a service) if those being "demonized" are, in fact, demons.
Is it even possible to "demonize" demons? I say no. I believe doing so is sometimes referred to as "telling the truth" or "calling a spade a spade."
I went to Red State and read their comments. These folks do, did, continue to and will always lie and defend (unless caught, and sometimes in spite of being caught, in their web of lies), the indefensible.
Again, perhaps I misunderstood you, but it seems to me that you are suggesting that we "play nice" and ignore obvious truth in the name of civil political discourse.
Am I wrong here?
Perhaps a better response to notherbob2 (who I'm happy to see is still around) is a tiny challenge for the commentator/contrarian:
ReplyDeleteRather than hyperbolic 'you're gonna eat crow' declarations, please prove your point. Provide examples where there has a been a collective and overwhelming outcry or critique on the Right towards any action or policy undertaken by the current Administration.
Yes, I'm talking directly to you, notherbob2. Prove to us that the Right actually holds some manner of 'ethics' and is willing to stand up to the Administration.
Myself? I won't hold my breath.
Red State is one of the few blogs anywhere with a quasi-official relationship with the Republican Party and their behavior, by itself, justifies the post.
ReplyDeleteI’ve been condemning the Washington Post for hiring someone so extreme, but if they want to hire someone totally supportive of Bush that does it with “attitude” (as a counterpart to Froomkin) don’t they have to hire someone just like Ben sans plagiarism?
Maybe Ben’s extreme views say more about today’s Republican Party (“Red State is the web’s leading Republican community blog”) than it does about the Washington Post’s decision to hire him.
Forget the plagiarism, is Domenech really the equivalent to Froomkin? Is Froomkin’s snark pretty much the same as Ben’s use of racist code words and a woman’s funeral to label her a “communist”?
If so, I think that Glenn is right that this post was totally justified.
As for the accusations and insistence that Glenn “lay off the demonization” because it would be “good for America” - that is obviously not a message well-received over there at Red State where some of them are wondering if Michelle Malkin is a moonbat.
Why are conservatives willing to accept the evidence of plagiarism and cast Ben out while at the same time not accept the equally obvious evidence that Bush violated FISA?
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that the tipping point for Ben Domenech's firing seemed to be when people could say, "Even conservative bloggers are criticizing..." Since when does the credibility for turning an issue into something major rest with the ConservaBorg? Why can't the facts just speak for themselves?
It's the same thing with the eavesdropping scandal. Just the indisputable fact that Bush broke the law isn't enough. In order to turn this into a scandal, we apparently have to rely on Republicans to decide it is a big deal. Why can't the facts speak for themselves?
I wonder what would've happened with the Domenech thing if the conservatives had held the proverbial line as the Red Staters were pleading this morning? What if this had turned into a technical, lawyerly argument over what is and isn't proper attribution, etc.? Would the Post have gone ahead and fired the guy, or would they have tried to continue to brazen it out?
I want to know who gave permission for conservatives to control the nature of the public discourse in the traditional media. Crap, it's disgusting.
celo said...
ReplyDeleteBart:Dan Rather's use of forged documents to slander Preident Bush during the election.
Pay attention, please. Stop putting up strawmen.
Rather and CBS explained their error and apologized. Rather's career ended because of it. You want to attribute malice where there is no evidence of any. And you forget that the documents were only a small part of a larger story, which was proven correct.
Ben Domenech resigned within 24 hours of this story breaking. In contrast, Rather and CBS defended these obvious forgeries for days after it was learned that their own experts would not verify them and the source was a Bush hating hack in Texas. It was only after CBS News had become a complete laughing stock and their ratings tanked that management pressured Rather to retire the anchor seat. They never admitted to posting forged documents.
BTW, the forgeries didn't prove any larger story. You are repeating the CBS non-apology "apology."
The Hooded Prisoner story has been clarified, explained, corrected by the NYT. That is how journalism works. You try hard. When you fail, you address it, correct it, and try to fix what caused the problem.
Try hard?!? Please...
The only thing the NYT has been "trying hard" at achieving is taking down the Bush Administration. They have completely scrapped basic journalism 101 fact checking and multiple source verification of stories.
Saying I'm sorry after being repeatedly caught is not "trying hard" to fix the problem. The sheer volume of "errors" by the NYT over the past few years has gone beyond embarrassing. It has become the stuff of routine ridicule in the conservative media and blogosphere.
Observer said...
ReplyDeleteWhy are conservatives willing to accept the evidence of plagiarism and cast Ben out while at the same time not accept the equally obvious evidence that Bush violated FISA?
Easily because we have the basic cognitive ability to distinguish perfectly legal and necessary behavior from wrongdoing, even amongst our own.
The real question is why you cannot tell the difference. You see everything through a political prism and it all boils down to...
Bush, Elephants and Conservatives = BAD
This whole thing disturbs me, mostly in that everyone seems to be losing sight of the human aspects here. Ben Domenech’s career is over, at age 24. The rest of the crew at Redstate, what little I know of them, seem to be friends of his – unless I am mistaken, they are all about the same age. So, it is unreasonable to expect a bunch of co-blogging friends to represent the reaction of the entire GOP blogosphere wrt conceding plagiarism, and condemning it and Domenech.
ReplyDeleteIt would be pretty foul human beings whose personal loyalty gave way so easily that in the initial stages of a blogswarm, they were immediately willing to abandon their friend. In some ways, I find their strained, incredible defenses more commendable than any other thing they could have done. Much easier, by far, for Malkin or Dan Riehl to condemn Domenech.
But then I always feel pity for people in these kinds of situations (except for Dan Rather). I did for Eason Jordan, Jayson Blair, Stephen Glass and that fellow whose name I can’t spell who wrote the bogus book about gun ownership in colonial America, literally making up probate records that don’t exist. They shouldn’t have done what they did. The liars and plagiarizers especially commit serious intellectual crimes. But there is something very distasteful about taking any pleasure in their humiliation.
Bart, Celo didn't say the CBS documents "proved" the larger story...he simply pointed out that Bush's desertion from the National Guard had been proven elsewhere even without them. CBS was wrong to rely on documents which could not be verified, and they were wrong to hang their whole story on them, as the story didn't require them.
ReplyDeleteAs to your assertions that Bush's NSA wiretapping is "legal and necessary" (as opposed to Domenich's plagiarism), what have you to offer to support this other than your assertion? How do we know it was necessary? And, as Glenn has pointed out, the facts speak plainly: it is illegal.
I guess not all you conservatives (sic) have much "basic cognitive ability" after all.
As for the NY Times, it's quite amusing to hear the former employer of Judy Miller accused of trying every way possible to "take down" Bush when they significatnly aided and abetted his war efforts through her promulgation of baseless pro-war propaganda. Aside from their editorial and op-ed pages, the Times is a conservative organ and has hardly been anti-Bush.
To Bart -
ReplyDelete"Easily because we have the basic cognitive ability to distinguish perfectly legal and necessary behavior from wrongdoing, even amongst our own."
Bart, you're an attorney. You, of literally everyone who comments here beyond Glenn himself, should be able to appreciate and comprehend the underlying issue here:
The President *broke* the law, knowingly and deliberately and HAS ADMITTED HE DID SO.
You can argue FISA is unconstitutional all you want, but there has been NO RULING FROM ANY COURT OF LAW AT ANY LEVEL OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT THE STATUTE ACTUALLY IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL! Until such a ruling is made, FISA IS THE LAW OF THE LAND AND MUST BE OBEYED BY THE PRESIDENT.
How is it you can't accept that? How is it a person who swore to act as faithful officer of the Court can openly advocate, even excuse, knowing and deliberate contempt for the rule of law by a nationally elected officer?
notherbob2,
ReplyDeleteThe benefit of being abused when you are wrong is that you are supported when correct.
You begin by recklessly charging that the “Bush Movement” (whatever that is, it could range from every citizen of these United States of America to only Karl Rove – but we understand who you mean, sort of) has no standards.
The desire to move specifics into generalities is motivated by factors that include:
1) Laziness- Sometimes generalities are used when the writer has not done any real research. Wingnuts really means the "right", which really means republicans, which really means a republican member of the Senate Judiciary committee, which really means Mike DeWine. Even in the era of google it is much quicker just to say the wingnuts than to do any actual research.
2) Embarrassing Opponents - Other times these words are used when the specific details of what you mean are more or less irrelevant. It seems much more important sounding to proclaim "the left says this and that" when what you really mean is some guy wearing a phish t-shirt in the quad before lunch. Of course a "debate" with someone who goes by the name "the grim reefer" is not nearly as romantic as an epic battle between left and right.
3) Purposeful propaganda - Still more often these words are used as "mirror words." These are words that have no definition when spoken but have a very strong meaning when heard. The advantage of these words to propagandist and artists alike is obvious. Minimal commitment to ideas or logic on the spoken end and maximum emotional effect to the listener. All under the guise of "rational and reasoned debate."
I think Glenn is a pretty damn good researcher so I have a hard time calling this lazy research on his behalf. Maybe it's because I am an optimist but I lean towards number two. Although, I have seen enough posts like this that I certainly will not write off number three.
Motivations aside, generalities are the enemy of truth. As the lens is defocused into ambiguity, everything becomes true and yet false at the same time. A scene of trees and summer foliage slowly turns to nebulous green blobs until the panorama becomes a picture-less gray wall devoid of detail and meaning. Reality now has become a canvas for the wide brush and limited palette of the so called house painters.
There will once again be time for the frivolity of art and propaganda but to talk about stadiums and chalk lines when the ball has been taken away seems absurd on its face.
hypathia,
ReplyDeleteIt's a nice thought to be generous, but then, generosity of spirit only goes so far toward someone who, a day after her funeral, called Coretta Scott King a communist. Someone who has gotten all the breaks in life, yet approvingly posts sanctimonious piffle about punishing those who haven't. I don't feel sorry for the guy and my only hope is, now that he knows what it's like to be in a difficult situation, he may grow from the expereience, but that's certainly a distant hope, if one is to judge by professional 'victims' like Ollie North and Jeff Gannon.
Moreover, unlike you (I assume), I knew Jayson Blair a little and he was a fucking asshole. He completely screwed over friends of mine (who he claimed friendship with) and he went out with the grace of a bomb. Just because he was severely troubled doesn't mean he wasn't a jerk all by himself.
Perhaps OT, but well within a dialog of repug/neocon hypocracy
ReplyDeleteLobbyist Abramoff gets subpoenaed in Boulis murder case
Fallen super-lobbyist Jack Abramoff and his former business partner soon will be subpoenaed by defense attorneys to give sworn statements in the Konstantinos "Gus" Boulis murder case.
The attorney for murder suspect Anthony "Big Tony" Moscatiello filed paperwork this week asking to question Abramoff and Long Island businessman Adam Kidan about the SunCruz Casino founder's gangland-style slaying. Broward Circuit Judge Michael Kaplan granted the request Thursday after prosecutors agreed to it.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-cboulis24mar24,0,4547612.story?coll=sfla-news-broward
That should play well with the "culture of life" crowd, huh?
This whole thing disturbs me, mostly in that everyone seems to be losing sight of the human aspects here. Ben Domenech’s career is over, at age 24.
ReplyDeleteOh, please. Young Ben will go on to a stellar career at FEMA, or in one of the Bush supporting companies currently looting the Federal treasury in Iraq, or perhaps he’ll write copy for that Lincoln company currently subverting the Iraqi press by paying for their positive propaganda to be put in newspapers – a practice that is not only dishonest, but counterproductive.
With his Bush-supporting-Dad’s connections he’ll make plenty of money, more than I can ever imagine. I’m not worried about this little jerk, I’m worried about what’s become of the Republican Party and my country.
You want human aspects? Read the posts (and comments) over there at Red State hoping for the deaths of those who disagree with Bush (they’re not hard to find). These are “pretty foul human beings” to begin with, and if they don’t have a high-profile venue to spew their hatred, racism, and deceptions that’s a good thing.
That’s not schadenfreude, it’s common sense.
bart:
ReplyDeleteBen Domenech resigned within 24 hours of this story breaking.
Good for the WP.com. He should have.
In contrast, Rather and CBS defended these obvious forgeries for days after it was learned that their own experts would not verify them and the source was a Bush hating hack in Texas. It was only after CBS News had become a complete laughing stock and their ratings tanked that management pressured Rather to retire the anchor seat. They never admitted to posting forged documents.
That's because you are not paying attention. They even apologized. But you probably get all your news from RedState, so you wouldn't get anything that opposes your worldview.
Boring....
BTW, the forgeries didn't prove any larger story. You are repeating the CBS non-apology "apology."
Except they did. You just don't know anything. But it's ok. Nobody here expects you to.
Go back to play with the little kids now.
WOW, our "copy and paste" troll is inserting mindless talking points at a furious pace - atleast considering this is no longer an issue...
ReplyDeleteHE RESIGNED, STUPID
Just goes to show you the real intention of the trolls...
I hope people realize that they also look stupid when they respond to obvious talking points that are inserted into the discussion without any real thought by the poster as to how they actually apply.
bart:
ReplyDeleteThe only thing the NYT has been "trying hard" at achieving is taking down the Bush Administration. They have completely scrapped basic journalism 101 fact checking and multiple source verification of stories.
Saying I'm sorry after being repeatedly caught is not "trying hard" to fix the problem. The sheer volume of "errors" by the NYT over the past few years has gone beyond embarrassing. It has become the stuff of routine ridicule in the conservative media and blogosphere.
Wow. For such a statement you probably have looked carefully at the issue. Or is this "truthiness" working again? "It feeeels like it it right, so I'm going to go with it!!"
How about you provide us all with a count of NYT errors without corrections and compare them with other periods and other publications.
Hmmm...methinks you are just spouting what you think has to be true.
Hint: facts aren't partisan.
Ben/Augustine has a post up at Redstate.It would seem what he claims about PJ O'Rourke could simply be checked with O'Rourke, and what if he says Ben is telling the truth? Further, Ben says he wrote the article from which he supposedly plagiarized the movie review in NRO, something that should be proveable. And he offers an explanation regarding the movie review examples from his college paper, which it would seem likely, is amenable to some checking.
ReplyDeleteIn sum, what if there has been an injustice in this blogswarm? Calling Coretta Scott King a Communist should not be punishable by career-destroying charges of intellectual felonies, unless those charges are true.
Mark Coffey and others who have waited to hear both sides have done the right thing, even if it turns out that all the charges of plagiarism are true.
Ben Domenech’s career is over, at age 24.
ReplyDeleteOh boo hoo.....
A lying liar, racist, and wingnut was finally held accountable for is behavior -- actions that most young adults in his profession would have known better than to have engaged here.
yeah, right, he is a victem...
What about the 100,000 innocent iraqis that have been murdered for a lie? how about our 2,400 dead soldiers or the 10,000s of thousands wounded?
What about the careers of journalists that have some integrity and have their careers ruined because they thought their job was to tell the truth.
The entire chimpanzee agenda is enabled by a mindset that destroying people is part of the game.
And you want to express sorrow for this one idiot wingnut that couldn't even watch his own p's and q's while cheerleading for the administration?
you are just sick...
ganderatthegoosestep,
ReplyDeleteI have to disagree with you regarding generalities. I do think that it is necessary to be carefull when applying conclusions based on generalities to specific examples. But a discussion that aims to avoid any generality will never go very far. You can't talk politics, religion, science, sports, etc if you don't engage in some sort of generalization.
As long as it is recognized for what it is, and that, as a generalizatin, it won't apply universally.
What I find terrible is the strawman argument that an exception to the general argument disproves the argument. I belive the adage goes the opposite way.
One can say that the Republican Party is corrupt based on current events. But one cannot argue that the argument is wrong because not every single member of the GOP has been engaging in corruption.
I'm curious...
ReplyDeleteHow many people here demanded that Dan Rather resign or that CBS fire him?
If so, how long after the forgery story broke on the blogosphere?
Hepatia,
ReplyDeleteIn sum, what if there has been an injustice in this blogswarm?
The instances of plagiarism should be investigated by the WP.com staff. I think everyone here would have been happy if they simply said "we are lookig into it and will get back to you". Don't forget, though, that it was Ben who resigned. He could have remained at his position if he thought he would be vindicated.
Heck, he is still free to prove himself right.
Zack writes: You want human aspects? Read the posts (and comments) over there at Red State hoping for the deaths of those who disagree with Bush (they’re not hard to find). These are “pretty foul human beings” to begin with, and if they don’t have a high-profile venue to spew their hatred, racism, and deceptions that’s a good thing.
ReplyDeleteOne can find filth and foulness in the comments everywhere online, except where heavy moderation goes on. Only last nite here I was told I am a "monster" lacking a soul who makes someone "sick." (Not intending to raise that up to perpetuate the argument -- the person apologized and I accept that.) Are we to now impute that to Glenn?
As a writer, Domenech is less than mediocre. I find many of his views repulsive. But I don't care who the pundit or blogger is, or what their thought crimes are. A concerted camapign to destroy is bad enough, but coupled with a frenzied rush to judgment, it is just wrong.
Domenech says he received permission from P.J. O'Rourke. If so, it was stupid not to secure that in writing, and I cannot fathom even a college paper editor not insisting on it if s/he knew the prose was borrowed. But I still await to hear what O'Rourkle has to say.
There are reasons for courts, trials, rules of evidence and juries -- they have to do with determining truth and guilt in a fair process. A conviction by 24-48 hr blogswarm is literally unAmerican and unfair. Even if the target is Ben Domenech.
bart:
ReplyDeleteHow many people here demanded that Dan Rather resign or that CBS fire him?
After the documents proved to be forged, I wanted him to issue a correction and possibly an apology. I don't think he knew they were forged, but he should have been more careful.
But the documents were just a small part of the whole story, and not even an important part. It's just that people tend to forget all the other evidence.
Calling Coretta Scott King a Communist should not be punishable by career-destroying charges of intellectual felonies, unless those charges are true.
ReplyDeleteUh, I have NO idea how you thought I linked the two. That he called King a commie (funny, I remember you complaining about the politicization of the funeral...it might have been someone else) isn't necessarily a punishable offense, but in any event, that's not what I said. I said that he deserved no sympathy for the trouble he made for himself because of such stupid and ungenerous statements he made toward others. Get it? Karma? No?
And, sure, O'Rourke thing could have happened (but then why wasn't that cited in the paper?) and his editors could have, repeatedly, replaced his copy with the stuff from Salon, the Washington Post and every other thing, but you'd have to be generous to the point of obtuseness to consider it plausible.
anon claims: And you want to express sorrow for this one idiot wingnut that couldn't even watch his own p's and q's while cheerleading for the administration?
ReplyDeleteyou are just sick...
Well, that's twice in two days I've been called "sick" here.
If it is a sign of illness to feel sorry for human beings who destroy their careers, then that's me. If one is mentally deranged because she thinks a calm hearing of both sides to a charge should be given before one forms a judgment, then I belong in a padded cell.
Maybe Ben Domenech's exculpatory post is mostly or completely lies. I don't know yet, and until I do, I'm reserving opinion. Even tho he is Ben Domenech. Because as night follows day, this won't be the last trial by blogswarm, and it is a sword that does not respect ideologies. Everyone with an online or otherwise public profile has a stake in fairness in this matter -- or maybe it is a sign of my illness that I think that.
"...we have the basic cognitive ability to distinguish perfectly legal and necessary behavior from wrongdoing, even amongst our own"
ReplyDeleteWell, I'll have to take your word for it Bart-o because your posts certainly don't indicate this.
celo said...
ReplyDeletebart: How many people here demanded that Dan Rather resign or that CBS fire him?
After the documents proved to be forged, I wanted him to issue a correction and possibly an apology. I don't think he knew they were forged, but he should have been more careful.
One in the NO column...
I said that he deserved no sympathy for the trouble he made for himself because of such stupid and ungenerous statements he made toward others. Get it? Karma? No?
ReplyDeleteHe's 24 yrs old. The thought of being held responsible for some of the things I said and wrote at that age is much less than appealing.
Further, everybody who spends any significant amount of time posting online, is going to say at least one, and likely several, things they'd die to retract. I'd wager that is true of many of us here, and would not be shocked if it is even true of our host.
The right blogosphere still and constanly refers to "'screw 'em' Kos." As I understand it, Kos deleted that comment, but many won't let him forget it, and I confess to finding it repulsive. But I wouldn't justify lack of sympathy for him by invoking "karma" if a blog frenzy developed that held potential to destroy his writing career.
In sum, what if there has been an injustice in this blogswarm?
ReplyDeleteOh, good grief.
I read Ben/Augustine’s post – it’s pathetic, and the idea that I should somehow now give him the benefit of a doubt is preposterous.
He has an obtuse defense of one instance of plagiarism, and dismisses the others as irrelevant because he was just a teenager. Why should I believe anything this little creep has to say, let alone believe it over what Glenn Greenwald has said?
In his post, Ben takes solace that people like Glenn were bashing him instead of America. Well, isn’t that lovely.
Then he goes on to say, “it is simply my word against the liberal blogosphere on these examples. It becomes a matter of who you believe.”
Well, I believe Glenn Greenwald and the liberal blogosphere (which now apparently includes Malkin and at least a few other hard-core Bush-supporters).
Sorry, but the evidence against him is overwhelming, and it’s not “who you believe” it’s what the facts are, and they are well-documented, even if you don’t want to believe them.
Like Ben, his remaining supporters are losing all credibility. Why they still attach themselves this sinking ship is simply beyond me. I’m flabbergasted.
Ben claims he is “not a partisan”
Gee, let’s give him the benefit of the doubt shall we?
human beings who destroy their careers, then that's me
ReplyDeleteuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
and how do you feel about people that destroy the lives of other, innocent people?
I keep saying that this is not about Ben.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't.
.
If it is a sign of illness to feel sorry for human beings who destroy their careers, then that's me.
ReplyDeleteBen's post is not even an attempt at self-defense. He defends an item here, an item there. But the only reason I posted - after 3 days of silence about the whole issue - was because the evidence of plagriarism was so overwhelming - one could just see paragraph after paragraph that he lifted wholesale - that there was no doubt that he did it, and there still is none.
I agree there is some mean-spiritedness about this, but I understand exactly why that is. There are some partisans on both sides who are incredibly mean-spirited in how they engage in their partisan warfare, and Ben - whether because of age, temperment or a whole host of factors - is one of those Bush supporters who is filled with all kinds of rage and hatred and contempt for people with whom he disagrees - he talks about how he hates Dan Fromkin and then lists the other people he hates just as much - he says federal judges are WORSE THAN KKK members - he calls Coretta Scott King a Communist on her funeral. That behavior requires an ugly and hateful personality.
None of that should disqualify him from writing. But the plargiarism should. And when something like this happens to someone who has demonstrated a rage-fueled personality filled with contmept for people and which shows no empathy for others, it is very hard to feel sorry for them.
Even more so, the people he allies himself with literally get off on destroying people's careers. Ben himself has wallowed in the misery of people like Jayson Blair and Stephen Glass in pious posts he has written. His political mentors reached a revolting climax when CNN finally axed Eason Jordan after a couple of decades. Not everybody is deserving of sympathy.
Finally, the idea that his career is over is pure hyperbole. Go look at Red State - they are still vigorously defending him. His daddy is some Bush loyalist, and partisan loyalists like him always land on their feet. Lewis Libby is employed at a neoconservative think tank. Elliot Abrhams is employed in the Bush Administration. So was John Poindexter. Not even felonies are enough to cause loylists to be cast out of the Bush movement. Surely a little plagiarism on behalf of The Cause will be nothing more than a small hiccup.
ReplyDeleteIn his post, Ben takes solace that people like Glenn were bashing him instead of America. Well, isn’t that lovely.
I have the reflexives of a defense attorney -- tho I've seldom been one and most of my experience is civil. It doesn't matter to me if the person being subjected to mob attack regarding fraud and dishonesty is a Communist or a Bircher. The phenomenon itself appalls me, and I don't expect it to always, or even usually, produce just results.
If what Domenech says about his editor inserting the text from other sources is true, that editor is out there somewhere. So are others who were on that paper's staff and who would know whether such practices actually occurred.
P.J.O'Rourke is also yet to be heard from.
Domenech may be guilty as charged. But it is too soon to know that with the degree of certainty I require before making that judgment.
jay: I agree with your comment that you'd be surprised if the WH wasn't doing everything it could to support the President. That falls under the rubric of human nature to win the argument at any cost that I mentioned.
ReplyDeleteThe support of President Bush at all costs, however, goes deeper than this. It is seen in such propaganda as that found in the film, Faith in the White House and similar works. Here you have a man whose main claim to office is his religious faith.
I also mentioned before examples of the same religious faction perjuring themselves in court to support their case against evolution. Seemingly, when you have the truth, you don't need to tell the truth.
On this conspiracy of the religious right to take control of the government, see a review of Kevin Phillips' book. Phillips, an actual architect of the strategy by those religionsts, now sees their pretensions to power as a serious threats to American democracy. According to the NYTimes reviewer:
He [Phillips] also suggests that the president and other members of his administration may actually believe these things themselves, that religious belief is the basis of policy, not just a tactic for selling it to the public. [my emphasis]
Pat Robertson and Ralph Reed used demonstrably deceptive methods to get candidates into office. According the TheocracyWatch website:
In 1990, Pat Robertson laid out his key organizing principle in his book The Millennium:
"With the apathy that exists today, a well organized minority can influence the selection of candidates to an astonishing degree."
With these examples in mind, I therefore think that lying and deception are part of a conscious strategy. This rises to a level above and beyond simple human nature to win an argument or even the typical political reaction to support the candidate.
He's 24 yrs old. The thought of being held responsible for some of the things I said and wrote at that age is much less than appealing.
ReplyDelete--Hypatia
I feel the same about some things I said and wrote then. None of them were plagiarized, however. And no one was offering me positions at one of the most prestigious newspapers in the country on the basis of them.
Leaving aside the fact that there's pretty clear evidence he was still at it when he published in the National Review, writing for a college newspaper is an important step in building a career in journalism and PR. It's part of your professional portfolio. You don't get a pass on it when it turns out you were stealing a lot of the stuff in there.
This just is one of the nastiest things to get caught doing. He got caught in a very public way, to his misfortune. But that high-profile position was given to him on the basis of a past record that included this stuff.
"does it seem that Michelle is slowly falling into the moonbat pit she so recently wrote about? "
ReplyDeleteWatch out. Michelle Malkin is no longer quite right enough.
Who knew?
National Review certainly doesn't seem to find Ben's defenses persuasive:
ReplyDeleteA MESSAGE TO OUR READERS [The Editors]
As the previous links on the matter mention, at least one of the pieces Ben Domenech is accused of having plagiarized was a movie review for National Review Online. A side-by-side comparison to another review of the same film speaks for itself. There is no excuse for plagiarism and we apologize to our readers and to Steve Murray of the Cox News Service from whose piece the language was lifted. With some evidence of possible problems with other pieces, we're also looking into other articles he wrote for NRO.
HYPATIA - There are countless instances of plagiarism beyond the PJ O'Rourke instance and the couple Ben discussed. There is one after the next that he says nothing about. He doesn't really even deny having plagiarized.
NR link fixed
ReplyDeleteDomenech may be guilty as charged. But it is too soon to know that with the degree of certainty I require before making that judgment.
ReplyDeleteThere used to be a phenomenon in the online world called the "pile on,” in which the denizens of a discussion forum would gang up on a fellow member with a collective viciousness that was amazing to behold. It often got very ugly. The goal was to drive someone out of the forum, and it rarely failed. What we've seen in the last couple days regarding young Mr. Demenech is an example of this on a much larger scale, the result of which has been the destruction of a young man's reputation and the loss of a very prestigious and exciting opportunity. I suspect he'll recover over time, but I also suspect there will be permanent scars that will never fade away.
The left has had a small victory. In the end, however, it will be a pyrrhic one. The memories of these things tend to linger, and the Domenech supporters won’t soon forget what happened here.
HYPATIA - There are countless instances of plagiarism beyond the PJ O'Rourke instance and the couple Ben discussed.
ReplyDeleteCountless?
The Rovian machine was involved in creating false documents concerning truthful information. CBS was setup and took the bait...
ReplyDeleteI'll bet folding money that you also believe it was the Mossad that brought down the twin towers on 9/11 so the US would go to war against Saddam Hussein.
Glen;
ReplyDeleteYou made false claims about severl members of the blogsphere - M. Malking, in particular - in the body of your post. You should really consider linking to your updates from the appropriate points in the body. It would be the decent thing to do.
Jay: What is interesting about the
ReplyDeleteBushites is that he successfully joined the religious right with a predominantly areligious coalition of thinkers known as neocons. This group hopes to implement the political ideas and programs of Leo Strauss.
Among many other ideas, Strauss is known for his advocacy of the Platonic notion of the Noble Lie. Strauss' former student, Shadia Drury, has written extensively about Strauss and the neocons. In this interview, Drury remarks extensively on the use of lies to further political goals, as practiced by the neocons.
For those who might be interested in these things, this practice resembles the notion of taqqiya, as Czeslaw Milosz explained it in his book, The Captive Mind.
You made false claims about severl members of the blogsphere - M. Malking, in particular - in the body of your post.
ReplyDeleteI didn't make a single false claim about anyone. I said that Malkin hadn't commented and, at the time I wrote that, she hadn't. She commented afterwards, and I added an update as soon as I saw it.
Bart -
ReplyDeleteAs you're declining to answer the prior question put to directly, please explain exactly how a respected news anchor quoting a collection of documents that prove to be forgeries, but which *don't* disprove the story itself, said anchor and network go on to publically admit the error and apologize, is the moral or legal equivalent of a writer claiming to be a reporter who in fact proven to be a serial plagiarist, yet he refuses to either admit this or apologize to those those he had stolen from?
One shows simply poor research or judgment, the latter outright criminal behavior. One would think an attorney would be able to appreciate the difference.
I'll bet folding money that you also believe it was the Mossad that brought down the twin towers on 9/11 so the US would go to war against Saddam Hussein.
ReplyDeleteAnd why would you do that? Are you seriously implying that claims that Bush didn't fulfill his national guard service are on the same plane as Al-Jazeera fantasies about 9/11?
Do you really think someone is likely to find one of those as plausible as the other based on the evidence?
anonymous said: The left has had a small victory. In the end, however, it will be a pyrrhic one. The memories of these things tend to linger, and the Domenech supporters won’t soon forget what happened here.
ReplyDeleteAnd what? It's not like 'conservatives' have been the least bit civil or reasonable about anything before this. When someone is already hitting you with everything they have all the time there is no point in being intimidated by threats. Your only choice is to fight back or not. Liberals, progressives, Democrats, gays, blacks, muslims, immigrants and anyone else who falls short of goose-stepping in line with the cult or seems like a safe enough group to target is the subject of eliminationist hate rhetoric every day under the guise of patriotism and traditional American values. It's neither and it's about time more people stood up and weren't afraid to say so.
Worry not for Ben. He still has a promising career as a high class escort and a White House correspondent ahead of him.
ReplyDeleteWorry not for Ben. He still has a promising career as a high class escort and a White House correspondent ahead of him.
ReplyDeleteMalkin et al are so responsible! I expect they'll be first in line to replace this guy at the Post.
ReplyDeleteReminds me of all those loyal Republicans lining up to demonstrate their born-again independence from the Bush administration.
He still has a promising career as a high class escort and a White House correspondent ahead of him.
ReplyDeleteYou mean as a male prostitute ala gannon/guckert?
He could also probalby blog at americablog...
Here's how Ben signs off:
ReplyDeleteTo my friends: thank you for your support. To my enemies: I take enormous solace in the fact that you spent this week bashing me, instead of America.
Isn't that great when a racist, lying liar gets caught plagiarizing and then proclaims that he is a "martyr" for the country instead of accepting the "personal responsibility" that he and the neocons proclaim everyone that disagrees with them should have.
To all the morons that “feel sorry” for this one – LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The statement issued by NRO is compelling; they wouldn't have done that if they had not undertaken an investigation and found any proffered explanations wholly insufficient. So, it it does seem almost certain that Domenech has committed intellectual felonies for which he is justly held accountable.
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, I dislike all the celebrations, and do not buy that this won't punish Domenech, and neither does anyone who is celebrating, or they wouldn't be doing it. It is his self-inflicted misfortune that is precisely what is causing all the glee.
Ugly, all that.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteBart -
As you're declining to answer the prior question put to directly, please explain exactly how a respected news anchor quoting a collection of documents that prove to be forgeries, but which *don't* disprove the story itself, said anchor and network go on to publically admit the error and apologize, is the moral or legal equivalent of a writer claiming to be a reporter who in fact proven to be a serial plagiarist, yet he refuses to either admit this or apologize to those those he had stolen from?
Talk about a run on question...
1) How is Rather "respected." He is a Dem partisan who headlined Dem fundraisers.
2) What "collection" of documents? The forgeries consisted of a couple of alleged memos. There was NO OTHER evidence that Lt Bush's CO ever held these opinions about Bush.
3) Rather and Mapes knew or should have known well before publication that these documents were not genuine and they violated basic journalistic ethics in offering them as genuine.
The source of the documents was a single and well known anti-Bush Partisan. CBS could not find a second source because the family of the CO denied the allegations.
The document "experts" which CBS consulted would not confirm the legitimacy of the forgeries. This is no surprise since it took less than 24 hours for non expert bloggers to spot the forgeries.
The timing of the report just before the election stinks. Mapes had been working on this story since 2001.
No reputable journalist without an agenda would have published these documents. At best, this is negligent misrepresentation. More likely given the bias of the reporters, this was a deliberate slander of the President and a fraud on the viewers of CBS News.
Comparing slander and plagiarism is apples and oranges. However, I would observe that slander is a deliberate attempt to harm another while plagiarism is stealing for personal gain.
The fact that no one here called for the immediate firing of Dan Rather while riding their high horses about this blogger says all that needs to be said about the non-partisan (sic) purity of their motives.
Judy Miller changed more for me than 9/11 ever did.
ReplyDeleteThat and any persons career that is built even partially on blatant lies and theft, and on ones fealties, and on the political position of ones Daddy is a career deserving of contempt (For all the seriousness of Rather's mistakes, his career was at least built on merit and achievement, and the way his professional denouement unfolded was tragic IMO), whether that person be 24 years old or 54 years old.
You think I'm going to feel pity if Dubya, the poster-child for meritless ascension, gets his comeuppance? Gimme a break.
S'long Ben. I hardly knew ye' and for that I'm more than thankful.
_____________________
The Schiavo circus gives me all the ammunition I need to know the (somewhat over-generalized but still appropriate) so-called "Bush movement" has utterly appalling, disgusting, "behavioral standards".
This particular episode is small potatos, comparatively speaking.
Hey Bart,
ReplyDeletePosse Comitatus Act. Bush said it prevented him from using the military to save lives in New Orleans. How can this be?
Bart -
ReplyDelete"Comparing slander and plagiarism is apples and oranges."
Bravo. That's what I was hoping to hear. You *are* able to tell the difference.
"However, I would observe that slander is a deliberate attempt to harm another while plagiarism is stealing for personal gain."
Fair comment. Slander has, after all, long been a key part of the Bush Administration and its fellow's rhetorical arsenal. Witness Mr. Bush's first campaign for governor of Texas.
Do you really think someone is likely to find one of those as plausible as the other based on the evidence?
ReplyDeleteNo one, really, gives a tinker's damn that George Bush didn't attend a few training sessions at the end of his TANG service 35 years ago. His political opponents tried twice to tar and feather him with these allegations, but what happened? Bush won the presidency twice, a feat not common in American history.
Aren't you getting awfully tired of dragging that dead horse around?
cynic librarian:
ReplyDeletere:shaia drury interview.
wow. fascinating.
straus sounds like the playwrite of the strum und drang drama that some of our exceedingly romantic neo-cons seem to love to see themselves as actors in.
unfortunately,
allowing influential and bureaucratically powerful neo-cons to act out their poltical fantasies does not seem like a good receipe for a sensibly managed foreign policy.
anonymous -
ReplyDelete"No one, really, gives a tinker's damn that George Bush didn't attend a few training sessions at the end of his TANG service 35 years ago."
Given what this tells of Mr. Bush's character and his attitude towards national service, one would think conservatives would take great issue with this.
But that would involve his vocal supporters actually holding actual principles, wouldn't it?
hypatia, i'm with you. gloating over another's misfortune is ugly. two wrongs don't make a right...
ReplyDeleteWhen specifically addressed, I usually do my best to respond. First Pendragon, you are correct that I am, in effect, a contrarian. When I like what I read I say to myself “That’s really good...” and go on . It is only things that I disagree with that move me to write. Second, I pointed out that Mr. Greenwald was actually eating crow, not going to be eating crow. There is a qualitative difference. Third, my post made no claims about anyone other than Mr. Greenwald. The point was simply that he was demonizing and I cited his own evidence to that effect. I believe that my comment is called “putting a face on it.” I added nothing, just offered a way to consider the information.
ReplyDeleteWhy would that open me to a challenge like yours? If there never was even one instance of Wingers “collectively and overwhelmingly” crying out or critiquing the Administration, would that make Mr. Greenwald right? Is it your belief that the left has ever “collectively and overwhelmingly” cried out about the Administration? You are just being a troll.
Mr. Greenwald proved something with the updates to his post. That was my point. What part of that don’t you understand?
Glenn wrote: He doesn't really even deny having plagiarized.
ReplyDeleteSound familiar?
Hypatia, I understand your feelings; I don't have it in me to kick someone who's down even when there is proof. But I don't think this is so much about that as it is about being sick to death of all the lies and lawbreaking and getting away with it because you're one of the cool kids.
And Domenech, an adult with responsibilities, has done the predictable and exactly what he's been trained to do - if you're caught, turn it around to those who've called you on it.
orion: sturm und drang indeed. they're the american version of the Romantic nihilists.
ReplyDeleteNot sure if you were talking about me or not, but I still see no problem with my theory concerning FISA and "Bush-think."
ReplyDeleteI'm not a Bush supporter, quite the contrary, and I think Bush supports violating the Constitution because he'd rather do that than screw up as big as 9/11 again. He'd rather not take any risks, and ignore the laws, than anything else. This is likely the meme behind the oft-repeated "Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety" trade-off quote generally attributed to Franklin. (see: here for one theory on the origin of the quote).
FISA rules are designed around the idea that one of the parties is an agent of a foreign power per 1804(a)(4).
Let's say for a second that we have no information to that effect. Then no application under FISA could be made, so it is not the applicable law. Ergo (perhaps) nothing applies except the Constitution, therefore all they need to do is define "reasonable" in a way that makes the 4th amendment amenable to their efforts, just as General Hayden did.
I also have a recent post on how what Bush has done is basically passing secret laws, a post which I hope everyone likes.
And my favorite 4th Amendment case is still Boyd vs US, 116 U.S. 616 (1886).
celo,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your reply.
You said:
But a discussion that aims to avoid any generality will never go very far. You can't talk politics, religion, science, sports, etc if you don't engage in some sort of generalization.
I will agree completely with this statement but only because I believe the current state of "talk" in these areas is indistinguishable from the cacophony of a bustling summer pond. It is entertaining and amusing if viewed as the music of some strange primal mating ritual but it is lacking content.
I will plagiarize your line and modify it to read.
You can't do politics, religion, science, sports, etc if you don't engage in some sort of specifics.
One can say that the Republican Party is corrupt based on current events. But one cannot argue that the argument is wrong because not every single member of the GOP has been engaging in corruption.
This is a wonderful example to look at. Specifics are not being avoided in the statement, they are only being applied to the definition of a group. The idea of creating an almost talmudic definition of a large group in painstaking detail so that broad sweeping statements of generalities can be made true is a corruption of reason.
But I don't disagree with what you are saying.
hypatia
ReplyDeleteyou tsk, tsk comments about "people" (presumably pointing a finger of diapprobrium at web logs critical of domenech and the the wapoop)
taking glee in domenech's dismissal for serial plagiarism
suggest a kindly, thoughtful personality sensitive to the hurts of others, in this case a young man whose only sin was that he loved other people's writing more than.
your comment
"ugly, all that."
put me in the mind of some ugly comments appended to a post of glen greenwald's ("learning from dear leader")regarding cindy shehan's arrest at the state of the union speech in early feb 06.
quote #1:
"Finally, Cindy Sheehan is, in fact, a liar. She lied about not sending anti-Semitic email. If anyone challenges me on this I'll track it down -- but her explanation was truly absurd, involving people supposedly doctoring her emails. She is a media whore, and getting arrested and thereby back in the news is what she now lives for. I believe she argued with the Capitol Police and invited her arrest -- not because she is anti-Bush, but because she is Cindy Sheehan.
9:14 PM"
quote #2:
"[Cindy brought her son back last night. "I will fight for you", he whispered to her heart. "Thank you for standing for me".] -hypatia citation
Make. Me. Vomit.
And yes, I have the moral authority to judge her. Her son did not feel that way. Being true to one's dead son is pretty supremely important. I have been with mine.
11:26 PM"
the author?
have you guessed?
hypatia.
these were parts of two of the 20+ comments you made to that post.
my inference comparing your comment here about domenech matter and your copmments about the sheehan matter:
like many right-wingers you like to give the appearance of being even handed, fair, and kind
but, by some quirk of fate, your fairness, kindness, and tolerance always seems to be reserved for those on your political team
and the insensitive, mean-spirited, condemnatory comments for those on your opponents' political team.
in short,
like many right wing commentators, you choose to cloak your systematic prejucidice in the soft verbal mantel of even-handedness.
deceptive, that
and ugly.
Glenn Greenwald said: Surely a little plagiarism on behalf of The Cause
ReplyDeleteWhile I'm not familiar with everything he is accused of plagiarizing, perhaps the lack of defense for him from some conservatives is precisely because his transgressions were not on behalf of the Cause. Fabrication, bigotry, hate spewing and even plagiarism would likely be defended to the end and then some if they were in the service of the Dear Leader and the Glorious Party. Cutting and pasting movie reviews isn't exactly something easy to turn into acts of heroic patriotism like Ollie North's taking one for the Gipper.
like many right wing commentators, you choose to cloak your systematic prejucidice in the soft verbal mantel of even-handedness.
ReplyDeletedeceptive, that
and ugly.
I'm not a right-winger. Further, and as I said, I actually do possess the moral authority to judge the manner in which Cindy Sheehan trades on her son's death. (And now that my identity is known, I can announce that there are those here and elsewhere in the blogosphere who are fully aware that I buried a 19-yr-old son.) She has put him, his death and her reaction to it all squarely at issue, counting on people feeling constrained by her status as bereaved mother to cause them not to criticize what she says. Well, I respect her grief, and empathize with it -- but I do not respect how she exploits it for political purposes. If her bereaved status is thought to immunize her, well, that immunity doesn't apply to me.
Moreover, I despise much that Ben Domenech advocates, from his views on gays to his creationism. But I didn't care for Eason Jordan or Stephen Glass, either, yet I felt terribly sorry for them, because fighting about politics (which is what Sheehan has more than opted to do) is one thing; but destroying one's life, and others taking pleasure in that, is another. (And I really don't think Jordan's faux pas should have cost him his job.)
As is known, I've been asked to do some guest blogging here. Among the topics I proposed to Glenn, and which he agreed to, was that I viciously lampoon another young Ben -- Shapiro. A right-wing jackass who wants both that Bush critics be tried for sedition, and a return to the prudery of Anthony Comstock. He's literally a professional virgin. That could have been fun -- and I would have been far from nice -- but I decided it was too lacking in gravitas for this site. But it is certainly fair to engage in political attacks on political players wrt their political positions, and I am more than willing to do that.
Ben Domenech, like Stephen Glass, committed an indefensible intellectual sin and their differing politics have nothing to do with that. Their failing was a human one, and it precludes any serious writing career ever again. They've made themselves pariahs in the world of intellectual and political discourse, a world they both love. It is a human tragedy that transcends ideology. And I think it is ugly to relish the suffering that fallible human beings inflict on themselves -- it is morally akin to the crowds who used to pitch pennies at the lunatics in Bedlam for fun and amusement.
I spend quite a bit of time tracking down potential plagiarism in my students' writing. I never comfront them about it unless I am absolutley poisitive, and even then I give them the opportunity to change their papers. Once, I had a student actually plagiarize my own writing and turn it in to me as her own work. To top it off, when I pointed it out to her, she argued about it intensely. The situation with this young man reminded me of that disconcerting experience.
ReplyDeleteReading the comments in this thread reminded my of some comments that I read in the early days of this blog, too. I'm glad that orion went to the trouble to go back and locate some of hypatia's remarks. I distinctly remember one very tedious discussion hypatia had over several threads regarding Michael Moore. I had hope that having had to deal with bart that hypatia might referain from acting the same way. To quote one very entertaining blog, "Sadly, No!"
Jeff Golstein’s post on young Ben is a classic! it manages to distill the very essence of “Bush Worship” (as applied to Ben) in a single sentence:
ReplyDeleteOn the charges of plagiarism, I’ll accept Ben’s explanation—whatever it is—because I also found him to be quite a forthright gentleman, which means that I expect he will admit to any wrongdoing.
Isn’t that precisely what the cult believes about Bush? Won’t they accept his explanation whatever it is on Iraq, Katrina (and everything else) and expect that he’ll admit to any wrongdoing? Isn’t that exactly what were seeing on the NSA issue?
Isn’t that what it’s all about? Accepting their explanations, their facts, their excuses and their distortions knowing full well that they would never do anything wrong – and even if they had -- they would acknowledge their guilt.
Faith. You must have faith. They can’t be guilty, because if they were, they would have told us.
When you’re in a cult. You must believe. Above all else, you must believe. Believe.
I distinctly remember one very tedious discussion hypatia had over several threads regarding Michael Moore.
ReplyDeleteEvery word I have ever written about Michael Moore pertains to his political views as expressed in his writing and in his films. If he's experienced any tragedies, or brought any misfortune on himself that is unrelated to ideology, you would never see me taking any pleasure in that.
Ever.
Not. Ever.
I've written here and elsewhere that I thought it was abominable when Rush Limbaugh called the adolescent Chelsea Clinton a "dog." That's well outside the bounds of political hardball, and is an inhuman thing to do. Further, and as I have also written, I canceled my subscription to a conservative magazine that destroyed itself by becoming obsessed with Bill and Hillary Clinton's sex lives, and which published sheerly vile things about them. That is also well outside the bounds of harsh political antics.
Do you people really not see that politics are not everything? That human beings as such should suspend those disagreements when we are afflicted with human misfortune?
ganderatthegoosestep: Just for my peace of mind, perhaps you can clarify why what you say Glenn is doing is different from engaging in a deductive argument? That is, he defines the major premise, gives an instance in the minor, and infers the conclusion.
ReplyDeleteDo you people really not see that politics are not everything?
ReplyDeleteNo, for the most part they do not. They see no humanity in their political opponents - in fact they hate them - and this imposes an oppression on the spirit that is easy to recognize. Hatred is a corrosive and destructive emotion, and its effect is evident despite the victim's attempt to conceal it. Like gluttony, it is not a secret vice.
hypatia:
ReplyDeletemy compliments.
your comment immediately above contained more precise, more direct writing than i have observed in others of your comments.
whether you are in fact a right winger or not is known only to you and those who know you well.
for me, i go by your writing, not your declarations.
if a commenter in her comments -in this case hypatia -- quacks like a right winger and waddles like a right winger than she may reasonably be characterized as a right winger. ["I actually do possess the moral authority to judge the manner in which cindy sheehan trades on her son's death."]
my evident skepticism about your claim is based on the observation that many right wingers deny their true affiliation when writing web log comments -
call it the original "peter" principle -
it is a tactic emmployed to give their comments more "credibility"!
and it is the other side of the coin to dismissing someone's comments because of their political affiliation - a tactic one sees employed in the right-wing media all the time.
and no,
emphatically no,
you do not,
repeat, DO NOT,
have the "moral authority" to judge the manner in which sheehan "trades on her son's death" in the iraq war.
that you would have the arrogance to lay a moral claim to judging sheehan says a lot about you.
i don't know if sheehan is using her son's death or not.
how is it that you know that with such certainty that you could write that sheehan is "trading on her son's death" in combat?
the comment strikes me as viciously judgemental in the manner of right wing "moralists".
one very hard question that the conjunction of your comments in february and here beg asking:
as for mother sheehan "using" dead son's, have you used your's for argumentative advantage?
if so, angry comments directed to others will not asuage either your hurt or your guilt.
now back to dear young ben:
your para #2 above beginning:
"moreover i despise much that ben domenech advocates..." could have showed up in your comments.
so too
your para#4:
ben domenech, like stephen glass, committed an indefensible intellectual sin....".
now this comment raises an interesting point:
i have no idea who ben glass is or what he did, but given that i've pegged you as a disguised right winger, my guess is that he is not part of your political team.
why?
because it is a consistent right wing arguing tactic to "accept" criticism of one's own right wing kin
and then turn imediately around and point the finger of contempt, scorn, misconduct, etc., at an individual on the opposite political "team" who is "known" to be "equally guilty".
this is a version of the the childhood "you're one too" argument.
as for your comment that you would not "lampoon another young ben -- shapiro."
because why?
because?
""... i decided it was too lacking in gravitas for this site."
i think yhou intended for readers to think you were restraining yourself out of kindness to young ben shapiro.
but your own words indicate it was your reputation and your ego that decided the matter for you ("lacking in gravitias"), not any intended kindness for shapiro.
you're welcome to your physchological and intellectual world
but it is not one i ever want to live in
Hypatia said...
ReplyDeleteDo you people really not see that politics are not everything? That human beings as such should suspend those disagreements when we are afflicted with human misfortune?
This is simply more "civil discourse" bullshit. A constantly hypocritical call from the right for civility in discourse when they are unwilling to show any themselves. But you go ahead and keep fighting those fights that need fighting there Hypatia - I am sure you make Rodney King very proud.
It is absurd.
As for your "politics are not everything" comment...
At this point politics is the only thing. That is, since neither the truth nor the law seem to matter in the damned least anymore.
I tried to link to this article earlier in a post but the Boston Globe has since put a reg. required on it. So here is an excerpt (from the Indy Star) - you read it and tell me politics isn't what we should be concerned about today. Ok?
President Bush shuns Patriot Act requirement
Bush signed the bill with fanfare at a White House ceremony March 9. But after the reporters and guests had left, the White House quietly issued a "signing statement," an official document in which a president lays out his interpretation of a new law.
In the statement, Bush said he did not consider himself bound to tell Congress how the Patriot Act powers were being used and that, despite the law's requirements, he could withhold the information if he decided that disclosure would "impair foreign relations, national security, the deliberative process of the executive, or the performance of the executive's constitutional duties."
Thursday, Sen. Patrick J. Leahy, D-Vt., said Bush's statement represented "nothing short of a radical effort to manipulate the constitutional separation of powers and evade accountability and responsibility for following the law."
Hello again King George.
We fiddle and chase after a lying, racist blogger and the WaPo that hired him(neither of whom give two shits about America or the American people) while our country is being laid to waste by criminals.
as for your comment that you would not "lampoon another young ben -- shapiro."
ReplyDeletebecause why?
because?
""... i decided it was too lacking in gravitas for this site."
i think yhou intended for readers to think you were restraining yourself out of kindness to young ben shapiro.
Glenn Greenwald reads his comments section. I am telling you, he and I had an email exchange in which I declared emphatic contempt for Ben Shapiro's political views (contempt which I also expressed here in comments), cited a Radley Balko smackdown of Shapiro over at Reason online, and proposed to do a savaging of Shapiro's sick views on sex and sedition. (I've been a Reason subscriber for over 20 years.) But I was concerned that I'd look unserious at a blog consumed with the NSA scandal, Feingold's censure resolution & etc. So I reconsidered whether I really wanted to write a post that would have had a lot of sexual content and humor, and am about to instead put up a post with another reader of this blog on a very serious issue.
Now. If that is all a lie, Glenn can say so.
He won't, because it isn't.
I don't think you've been here long; I have been commenting at this site nearly since its inception, and anyone familiar with the full set of my views as demonstrated over the last nearly 5 months, would see that I am a libertarian, and not a conservative.
Last week over at Blogs for Bush I was repeatedly called a moonbat, and here you are, insisting I'm a rightwinger. The fact is, I'm a libertarian, and both left and right have reason to find me objectionable, and do.
As for this: one very hard question that the conjunction of your comments in february and here beg asking:
as for mother sheehan "using" dead son's, have you used your's for argumentative advantage?
Yes, when mooting Sheehan's.
But that is all about politics. And I continue to insist that decent human beings suspend politics when other human beings fall victim to their own frailties.
And finally, if you do not know who Stephen Glass is, or how he embarrassed The New Republic, well, where have you been? They even made a relatively successful movie about it.
RH writes: This is simply more "civil discourse" bullshit. A constantly hypocritical call from the right for civility in discourse when they are unwilling to show any themselves. But you go ahead and keep fighting those fights that need fighting there Hypatia - I am sure you make Rodney King very proud.
ReplyDeleteIt is absurd.
That would all be a fine and fair accusation if I didn't lambaste the right for its sins against civil discourse; in fact, I have done so too many times to count, and in many venues. Only a few days ago at Obsidian Wings I supported hilzoy in her criticisms of the grotesque and perverted rantings Jeff Goldstein issued regarding Digby's co-blogger, tristero.
I do despise incivility, if that means gratuitous and vicious attacks on a person that are unrelated to political positions they have taken.
Re: Shapiro.
ReplyDeleteSomeone could and should do a serious post about him, or more specifically, the idea that dissent can equal treason.
Over at Blogs for Bush, Mark Noonan, in the comments section of a post about how dissent is ok but treason isn't (which in practice translates from the Newspeak back into dissent is treason) wrote as an example of acceptable dissent:
This is why I say it is ok for someone to, say, complain that we didn't have enough troops when we went in - but the follow up must be an argument for sending more troops now, not demands that we pull out
That just leaps out at you doesn't it? Political orthodoxy, to be legally enforced.
gloating over another's misfortune is ugly.
ReplyDelete"Misfortune"? Misfortune is when you're innocently going about your business and the oblivious, amoral universe inflicts some bad thing on you.
The boy plagiarized. He profited from his plagiarism. As I posted above, your publications for a college newspaper are part of your portfolio. Nothing that has happened to him was the result of people looking at things that should have been out of bounds.
As for the "ugliness": what I see is people taking him as an emblem or icon of right wing perfidy. We have witnessed a huge amount of end-justifies-the-means behavior among Bushites and movement conservatives in general. "Rat-fucking" other candidates is okay because they're on a mission from God and their enemies are evil and the librul media are against them and blah blah blah.
So here's a nice clear-cut instance where you can say, wait a minute, jack, this kind of thing is NOT okay no matter what grand crusade you think you're on. And we want to use that to stand as a concrete, unambiguous instance of the larger phenomenon we've been outraged by lo these many years.
Is this somehow unfair to Ben? I hardly think so. He has, after all, identified himself with that movement and offered himself as a prototype of it. Now he is indeed playing that part, just not the way he wanted to. I don't see any great unfairness. He earned everything that's happening to him, fair and square.
Hume's Ghost quoting Mark Noonan:This is why I say it is ok for someone to, say, complain that we didn't have enough troops when we went in - but the follow up must be an argument for sending more troops now, not demands that we pull out
ReplyDeleteMark Noonan holds authoritarian, illiberal views that are conventionally described as fascist. Last week I spent (probably wasted) several days over there explaining why Feingold's censure motion was justified, and why it is outrageous to equate it with "aiding the enemy."
But he and most of his minions over there are the most hopeless of the Bush worshippers. There is no penetrating their adoration with reason, fact or appeals to law and such quaint notions as individual liberty.
I continue to insist that decent human beings suspend politics when other human beings fall victim to their own frailties.
ReplyDeleteMy daughter is a drug addict. I think I'm fairly well schooled in dealing with a young person falling victim to her own frailties. I guess where I have trouble seeing Domenech in this light is the term "victim." Up until now, he hasn't been a "victim" of his own plagiarism, he's been a beneficiary of it. My daughter, on the other hand, has certainly been a victim of her heroin addiction. It hasn't earned her any accolades or jobs at prestigious publications. It's pretty much royally fucked up her life in fact. And she doesn't go around looking for compassion--she accepts that no one else is responsible and that moral choice is part of where she is, even if there is a biological, hereditary component as well.
This guy wasn't a secret sufferer of some disease called plagiarism. He did what he did knowing it was wrong (at least I hope he was this morally aware and not some kind of sociopath) and profiting from it, all the while holding himself up as a moral paragon and offering harsh judgments about others.
I hope this experience makes HIM more compassionate toward "other human beings [who] fall victim to their own frailties." From reading his stuff I'd say it's certainly a lesson he needs to learn, and he certainly wasn't going to learn it by continuing to get away with and profit from these dishonest acts. I'm sorry he got himself into a situation where he had to learn this lesson--if he does--so publically, but that's his own fault. I don't know whether it's "ugly" to take satisfaction in seeing a moralistic bully get his own sins exposed, but I can think of worthier targets for my compassion.
In an interview with the LATimes, as reported by RAWStory, Retired Command Sergeant Major Eric Haney's (a founer of the military's Delta Force), says:
ReplyDeleteQ: What's your assessment of the war in Iraq?
A: Utter debacle. But it had to be from the very first. The reasons were wrong. The reasons of this administration for taking this nation to war were not what they stated. (Army Gen.) Tommy Franks was brow-beaten and ... pursued warfare that he knew strategically was wrong in the long term. That's why he retired immediately afterward. His own staff could tell him what was going to happen afterward.
We have fomented civil war in Iraq. We have probably fomented internecine war in the Muslim world between the Shias and the Sunnis, and I think Bush may well have started the third world war, all for their own personal policies. [my emphasis]
His comments do lead you to woner who "their own personal policies" refers to. As I have suggested in previous comments, these people would be the neocon/religious right coalition now running the WH and Congress.
hypatia:
ReplyDeleteyour comments at 12:54 am are quite defensive, though in one instance remarkably honest.
beginning at the end of your comment,
"where have i been?"
answer
here. right where i have always been.
i have no needs to fulfill by playing games with other commenters.
i am unmoved by suggestions that i am not with it ("where have you been")
because
they are true.
i am not with it.
as for movies, i'm not very fond of american movies; french seem more human.
with regard to your first para about your communications with glenn greenwald,
i personally don't give a damn who you did or did not talk with. you can talk with the devil, vishnu, yawheh, or ggr. it's all
the same to me.
what i do care about is that
you evaded the heart of my comment about sharpiro --which was that your decison not to write about him was based, not on your concerns for shapiro, but on your concerns for "gravitas", which i interpret to be your egotistical concerns.
the business about whether "it is a lie" is just a typical hypatia red herring.
as for your being a "libertarian"
i don't give a rat's ass what label you apply to yourself
as i said earlier
if a commenter writes like a right winger and waddles like a right winger
then
it seems reasonable to call that commenter a right winger.
and you clearly are a right winger
unhappy?
ok, i'll modify the label
right winger - libertarian mutation variant.
furthermore, your effort to garner bona fides doesn't impress me. i dont care if you did or did not subscribe to "reason".
what i do observe and care about is your writings at this site and
they all look like and smell like right wing.
as for your comment about using your son in the service of countering sheehan,
that seemed like an honest comment.
but your succeeding comments ("But it is all about politics....") strikes me as self-exculpatory blather.
again i say
i would not want to be an inhabitant of your intellectual and pyschological world.
"Hypatia" said...
ReplyDeleteAnd I think it is ugly to relish the suffering that fallible human beings inflict on themselves -- it is morally akin to the crowds who used to pitch pennies at the lunatics in Bedlam for fun and amusement.
Nonsense. Pre-meditated lying and theft are not forms of insanity.
And little Ben is not "misfortunate" any more than Ken Lay, Jack Abramoff and "Duke" Cunningham are. They are all what is called guilty.
Justice served is sweet and should be relished, for it isn't always so forthcoming.
Hypatia, you have come around a bit (from your first days on this blog's comment threads), I must give you credit. However, early on you did give Glenn a run for his money and trolled in your own way. You must remember. I do. Glenn *sigh*-ed at your repeated red herrings, but he was always very patient with you. He even let you post on his blog. Funny how you backed off the P.J. standard only after Glenn quieted you. You two have some sort of relationship going on, but Hypatia, I think you may not have the upper hand you imagine.
ReplyDeleteSince you referenced my comment specifically, I'll just say, no you didn't. Oh, and I'll refer you to the archives of this very site. If you want me to go drag all that '05 nonsense up, I will. Otherwise own up to what you said, the hoops you tried to make Glenn jump through and how, with grace and kindness, he treated you fairly and without judgment.
Lastly, I remember on another recent thread that you were identifying trolls. You were one once. You aren't any long because of Glenn.
"Ben Domenech’s career is over, at age 24."
ReplyDeleteIt's lovely -- and predictabie -- hypatia, that you have so much concern for this rich connected incompetent twit. Oh what life of woe he faces. NOT.
you evaded the heart of my comment about sharpiro --which was that your decison not to write about him was based, not on your concerns for shapiro, but on your concerns for "gravitas", which i interpret to be your egotistical concerns.
ReplyDeleteWell, yes. Glenn had already written a serious post that included discussion of Shapiro's wretched views on what constitutes sedition. So that field had been tilled. You, however, had claimed I was some sort of defender of all people right-wing, and that is absurd. A person who adores right-wingers doesn't ponder adding Shapiro's views on sex (he's written a whole silly book expounding them) to the mix in a post lampooning him, which I did ponder doing, but which I also reconsidered because my "ego" said I didn't want to be the only person posting here who veered off into sex-laden territory.
You add, again: i would not want to be an inhabitant of your intellectual and pyschological world.
You do not even know what that is. You've laid a plastic template over me marked "right-wing." That may make the world easier for you to navigate, but it will not allow you to see some people as they really are.
" Ben/Augustine has a post up at Redstate.It would seem what he claims about PJ O'Rourke could simply be checked with O'Rourke, and what if he says Ben is telling the truth? Further, Ben says he wrote the article from which he supposedly plagiarized the movie review in NRO, something that should be proveable. And he offers an explanation regarding the movie review examples from his college paper, which it would seem likely, is amenable to some checking."
ReplyDeleteHypatia, you are a blithering idiot for finding Domenech's BS credible -- as Glenn accurately noted, his plagiarism was PROVEN. That Domenech BS that you swallowed was so transparent that even Domenech and RedState had to stand down from it, now offering apologies and "contrition" for his "obfuscation". And if you think any of that is genuine and not just damage control, that just further demonstrates your blitheringness.
orionATL said... @ 2:38am
ReplyDeleteHear, hear.
"Well, that's twice in two days I've been called "sick" here."
ReplyDeleteFacts are facts.
bart said...
ReplyDelete"I'm curious...
How many people here demanded that Dan Rather resign or that CBS fire him?
If so, how long after the forgery story broke on the blogosphere?"
As pointed out earlier, that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Plagiarism is a world away from unknowingly (as far as we can tell) forged documents. Can you write one post without making a fool of yourself?
"Did bart actually post an entire comment that had no prevarications nor misrepresentations and (the horror!) actually made some sense? LOL."
Nope, still waiting for that. Maybe it would alleviate my nightmare of bart defending me in a murder trial.
Domenech may be guilty as charged. But it is too soon to know that with the degree of certainty I require before making that judgment.
ReplyDeleteSee Hypatia lie. Domenech was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. But Hypatia, a thoroughly intellectually dishonest being, is intent on an ideological attack on the left blogosphere, and so uses this event as an opportunity to bring make a charge of "piling on". This, of course, is an utterly ad hominem charge. The question is not how many people noted Domenech's plagiarism, but whether their observations were accurate. And they obviously and clearly were.
Daphne says: Since you referenced my comment specifically, I'll just say, no you didn't. Oh, and I'll refer you to the archives of this very site. If you want me to go drag all that '05 nonsense up, I will. Otherwise own up to what you said, the hoops you tried to make Glenn jump through and how, with grace and kindness, he treated you fairly and without judgment.
ReplyDeleteLastly, I remember on another recent thread that you were identifying trolls. You were one once. You aren't any long because of Glenn.
I have no clue what you are talking about. Or what you mean by the "'05 nonsense."
But I do know I have never been a troll here, or anywhere else. And I damn sure know that nobody "makes" Glenn Greenwald "jump through hoops," that the notion is risible, and I certainly never "tried" to have him do that.
As for this: You two have some sort of relationship going on, but Hypatia, I think you may not have the upper hand you imagine.
On more levels than you can imagine, that is improbable and funny.
As you may have noticed, after the NYT reported the illegal NSA program, this site became predominantly concerned with that. Someone of my political bent is going to be as galvanized by those revelations as most everyone else here is. Whatever areas of disagreement I may have had with many here prior to that, fell into background at that point, and it really is that simple.
"Hypatia" said...
ReplyDeleteThe statement issued by NRO is compelling; they wouldn't have done that if they had not undertaken an investigation and found any proffered explanations wholly insufficient.
You have argument from authority up the butt, Hypatia. The "proffered explanations" were "wholly insufficient" on their face; but you take a statement from NRO as more compelling than the facts. What a clown.
Hypatia, you are a blithering idiot for finding Domenech's BS credible...
ReplyDeleteShe didn't find it "credible," she simply gave the kid the benefit of the doubt, a human emotion that would appear beyond the limited reach of your crabbed personality.
It's unseemly to gloat over the fallen, but hey, you've got your victory, and nothing is more important. A young man's indiscretions have brought him down. He's humiliated and disgraced. He'll never get paid to write for a living again, which was certainly his dream and his life's ambition.
Too bad it wasn't George Bush, eh?
I had hope that having had to deal with bart that hypatia might referain from acting the same way. To quote one very entertaining blog, "Sadly, No!"
ReplyDeleteHypatia is a thoroughly intellectually dishonest specimen, that she often challenges folks like Bush and Bart notwithstanding. We shouldn't play the game of being uncritical toward people just because we perceive them to be political allies.
ReplyDeleteHypatia, you are a blithering idiot for finding Domenech's BS credible -- as Glenn accurately noted, his plagiarism was PROVEN. That Domenech BS that you swallowed was so transparent that even Domenech and RedState had to stand down from it, now offering apologies and "contrition" for his "obfuscation". And if you think any of that is genuine and not just damage control, that just further demonstrates your blitheringness.
I didn't say it was credible; I said I wanted to see what the various sources he referenced had to say about his claims. You are wrong if you think that concern was driven by any sense of affinity for his views. I disagree with almost everything he put up during his brief time at WaPo.
As a human being, I dislike mobs attacking ANYONE on grounds of alleged venality. It isn't ideological for me, as hard as that may be for some to understand. It is a deeply felt, utterly visceral part of my psyche, and I don't apologize for it. Mme. LaFarge is not my model for justice.
I'm not a conservative, in part because I've never been a "law and order" type in the day-to-day criminal law context. My strong reflex is to dislike prosecutors, and side with the defense.
Human beings manage to screw themselves up in a huge variety of ways, and I have a great deal of empathy for that, much more than Ben Domenech has every demonstrated. As I keep saying, not everything is political. My reaction here has not been.
She didn't find it "credible," she simply gave the kid the benefit of the doubt
ReplyDeleteYou've managed to contradict yourself in a single phrase. Perhaps you should consult a dictionary as to the meaning of "credible".
a human emotion
Giving the benefit of the doubt is not "a human emotion".
it's unseemly to gloat over the fallen
I have done no gloating, I have merely pointed out that Domenech was a PROVEN plagiarist and Hypatia was dishonest to deny it, as she was dishonest to paint him as a victim. He plagiarized, he was caught, he lied about it, he has now admitted it. Those are the facts. That his "career is over" is not a fact, and any "suffering" on his part is a direct consequence of his own actions, and entirely deserved.
I didn't say it was credible
ReplyDeleteI didn't say you said it was credible. Are you THAT stupid? I said you found it credible -- and you did. But his statements were lies on their face.
You are wrong if you think that concern was driven by any sense of affinity for his views.
I didn't say or imply that you have any affinity for his views. Are you THAT stupid that you can't read and comprehend plain English?
As a human being, I dislike mobs attacking ANYONE on grounds of alleged venality.
ReplyDeleteYou are SUCH a dishonest ass. Domenech was PROVEN to be a PLAGIARIST. There was no "mob", there was a collection of intelligent people presenting evidence. He wasn't "attacked", he was CHARGED. It wasn't "venality", it was PLAGIARISM. And it wasn't just "alleged", it was DEMONSTRATED.
I have done no gloating...
ReplyDeleteNo, of course not. You're a paragon of rectitude, positively dripping with the milk of human kindness. You're just stating the facts in a dispassionate frame of mind, observing the events of the day objectively, with truth being your only goal.
I find this statement at RedState striking:
ReplyDeleteCertainly it may seem strange today to describe him as a "man of principle." But those who know Ben -- and all of us on the RS leadership team do -- know that he is passionate in his beliefs.
This says a great deal -- that they equate being passionate in one's beliefs with being principled. Quite amazing, that. And the whole article in which that statement is embedded illustrates it -- a thoroughly impassioned but unprincipled rant.
I have done no gloating...
ReplyDeleteNo, of course not. You're a paragon of rectitude, positively dripping with the milk of human kindness. You're just stating the facts in a dispassionate frame of mind, observing the events of the day objectively, with truth being your only goal.
Even if I'm none of those, that still doesn't make me a gloater.
Moron.
Zack:
ReplyDeleteAre you certain that these types of outrageous "comments" about the Christian Peacemakers (who actually sound very Jesus-like to me)are in fact written by Bushco wingbats?
Maybe. What if they are, however, written by neo-cons, in an attempt to influence the opinion and arouse the emotions of Bushco wingbats?
I suspect the latter is more likely.
If so, it would speak more directly to the tactics which certain people use to manipulate and thus control, rather than to the cult-like suspension of reason of those who follow their lead.
Dave writes: She didn't find it "credible," she simply gave the kid the benefit of the doubt, a human emotion that would appear beyond the limited reach of your crabbed personality.
ReplyDeletePlease. Don't. Help. Me.
Look, I've known who you were since your first, pre-Gedaliya posts, and I'm not alone in that knowledge. This isn't the place for reconvening and revisiting the clashing worldviews and ancient enmities you alluded to upthread. You were and are a rock-ribbed Republican, and that is never going to be compatible with the milieu here, any more than I was compatible with the arch-conservative Republican venue.
I don't want your support, ok? In my strong opinion, you and everyone would be best served if you would not continue here. And of course, Glenn has imposed a posting limit you have now repeatedly violated, and a person who respected property rights would abide by that.
"I dislike all the celebrations ... Ugly, all that."
ReplyDeleteHear, hear.
Are you just idiots, or what? There haven't been any "celebrations". People disgusted at Domenech and the WaPo are still disgusted, and are commenting on Jim Brady's statement that they are still searching for a "conservative blogger", but one with "journalism credentials". No one sees the demonstration that Domenech is a plagiarist as any sort of victory -- it just further confirms the depths of the garbage we are up against.
Hypatia, what of your PJ caveat? Don't you need to hear from him in order to make your decision?
ReplyDeleteWhat up with that? Have you heard from the man? Up thread I thought that was the standard by which you might judge the matter.
Or was it that Glenn tapped you down?
The folks at redstate are vera'fogivin'. You should pay it a visit and see what crap is there.
ReplyDeleteHypatia, what of your PJ caveat? Don't you need to hear from him in order to make your decision?
ReplyDeleteThe NRO statement rendered that irrelevant. No matter what O'Rourke might say, NRO has already said he committed plagiarism at least there.
Don't be surprised, Daphne, of being accused of "gloating" for presenting facts and logic that result in someone else being cast a bad light. Poor Hypatia is just a "victim" of having a head full of BS; we should all feel sorry for her.
ReplyDeleteNRO has already said he committed plagiarism at least there.
ReplyDeleteAnd if NRO said it, it must be true. Of course, that the charge of plagiarism had been demonstrated in black and white isn't so important to Hypatia. People who take something that, by definition, is plagiarism as plagiarism are just a "mob" who are "attacking" the plagiarist with "allegations" of "venality" -- a characterization that shows Hypatia's generous humanity.
BTW, let's see what NRO actually said. Emphasis added:
ReplyDeleteAs the previous links on the matter mention, at least one of the pieces Ben Domenech is accused of having plagiarized was a movie review for National Review Online. A side-by-side comparison to another review of the same film speaks for itself.
Hypatia. Intellectually. Dishonest. Jackass.
And just as a reminder, Hypatia wrote:
ReplyDeleteThe statement issued by NRO is compelling; they wouldn't have done that if they had not undertaken an investigation and found any proffered explanations wholly insufficient.
But NRO said nothing about undertaking an investigation. They said that the text speaks for itself. The two reviews, in and of themselves, are "compelling" evidence of plagiarism -- compelling to any intellectually honest person -- and NRO simply noted that. But it's NRO's statement of the obvious, rather than the obvious itself, that Hypatia considers "compelling" -- by way of her fantasizing an "investigation" for which there is no evidence, and for which there was no need, because " A side-by-side comparison to another review of the same film speaks for itself."
Sheesh.
glenn,
ReplyDeletegood work.. points well made on 'others' pre-and-post Domenech.
this news not quite right here, but very much yr cuppa. John Dean has a close look into Specter's mind. Says 'an thoughtful and intelligent possibility' there. Links at:-
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20060324.html
More on Hypatia's pathetic intellectual dishonesty: at 1:58 pm Friday, hours before Hypatia blathered on here, John Podhoretz posted this at NRO:
ReplyDeleteNO EXCUSES [John Podhoretz]
I don't know Ben Domenech, but I've always found him impressive. The evidence of his plagiarism, however, is overwhelming, and there can be no excuses for these intellectual felonies. He needs to come clean and take his punishment like a man.
More recently, at 8:27pm, NRO posted numerous instances of Domenech's plagiarism at NRO. This consists entirely of textual comparisons, not "an investigation" into "any proffered explanation". As they note:
You get the idea. Put alongside other pieces that we're looking at and that have been linked to elsewhere in the blogosphere, it's hard not to conclude there was something amiss.
Yes, it takes very hard work indeed not to conclude that.
Finally, on the question of P.J. O'Rourke, while it is patently absurd on its face that he would have given Domenech permission to use his words without attribution, which not only would give a clear appearance of plagiarism, but in fact would be plagiarism by any definition I can find, the NYT reports:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/25/business/25post.html
Contacted at his home in New Hampshire, Mr. O'Rourke said that he had never heard of Mr. Domenech and did not recall meeting him.
"I wouldn't want to swear in a court of law that I never met the guy, Mr. O'Rourke said of Mr. Domenech, "but I didn't give him permission to use my words under his byline, no."
DUH. Only an incredibly stupid or intellectually dishonest person could have imagined him doing so.
I have no sympathy for Domenech. Seriously, how goddam difficult is it to actually write your own stuff? Hell, I could do that way before I had a BA to back it up. It most clearly shows that Ben's lazy above all other sins he probably committed. Laziness? In the establishment media? Surely not!
ReplyDeleteHmmm, maybe that's another reason why he was hired.
truth machine, I have read this blog from almost the beginning. I started from home to check back when hypatia started up, but my dial up is slow . . .
ReplyDeleteHypatia started as a troll and now that Hypatia is on the right side on one point, then all is forgiven and Hyatia can lord it over any and all that comment.
I rarely comment. However, Hypatia's condescension is very nearly intolerable to me.
It's a good thing that I am truly fair minded and don't make Glenn repeat his arguments, nor do I rail until he weighs in to make me stop.
I appreciate his work, and act when he advocates.
Hypatia, while having his ear, insists upon being as stubborn as w himself.
And therein lies my doubt.
Hypatia said:The NRO statement rendered that irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteI might argue that Glenn's singling you out might have made you give up the PJ argument.
You live with yourself.
I would feel much less inclined to judge Mr. Domenech if he had ever been inclined to refrain from judging others. In his Red State writings, he presents himself as a redeemed servant of Jesus Christ, living a holy life...and a humble one at that. He did not show Christ's mercy to the victims of Katrina, nor to anyone else outside his pale of acceptable behavior, nor did he ever write in a way that demonstrates a grasp of the Sermon on the Mount, but he continued to claim that holiness while raining down simple vileness. This is what Jesus warned about: you will be judged by the standard you use on others. What you measure out to others will be measured out to you.
ReplyDeleteHe knows what's in the gospels. Furthermore, he knows - or certainly should - what the book of Acts says about Ananias and his wife. He has no excuse. If he had ever shown a speck of the charity that is Christ's, then I might be willing to cut him some slack. As it is? Nope.