Glenn has done an excellent job over the last two days explaining why it makes no sense for Democratic senators to withhold judgment on Sen. Feingold's censure resolution pending the completion of an investigation that 1) is not going to happen, and 2) could not possibly yield any additional facts that are relevant to determining the legality of the President's warrantless surveillance program(s).
The problem here is that the administration's defenders have conflated policy analysis with legal analysis, and most Democrats are either unable or unwilling to point out the difference. Indeed, the Jeff Goldsteins of the world readily declare the NSA program to be good policy while, at the same time, insisting that "we DO NOT have enough information to make an informed judgment about the program's legality." In other words, we must remain agnostic about the legality of the program pending further investigation, but we do not need further investigation to know that the program is good and effective and does not unreasonably infringe on our civil liberties.
It is impossible to understate just how incoherent and ass backwards this position is. Policy analysis is much more fact-intensive than legal analysis. To know whether or not something is good policy you generally need to know ALL the facts. That's just the nature of policy analysis. One small detail can turn an otherwise good policy into a spectacularly bad one.
The same is not at all true of legal analysis, which relies almost entirely on public documents (statutes, published opinions, the Constitution, etc.). Determining whether an activity runs afoul of the law only requires knowing a few legally significant facts. The remaining details may augment or diminish the extent of the wrongdoing, but they do not bear on the legality of the conduct at issue. As both Glenn and I have explained ad nauseum, the facts necessary to evaluate the legality of the NSA program are not even in dispute. The administration has admitted that the type of surveillance it is conducting requires a warrant under FISA, and it has admitted that warrants were not obtained. The rest is purely a matter of law. As Glenn explained the other day:
[A]ll of the facts relevant to the question of whether the President broke the law (the only issue raised by the Feingold Resolution) are already known, and for that reason it is illogical to claim that an investigation is needed before that question can be answered. Put simply, we don't know the scope and extent of the President's illegal eavesdropping, but we do know that the eavesdropping he ordered was illegal.
But while the censure debate is ripe for discussion, the greater policy debate is most certainly not. We don't know how the program works, what technology or processes it employs, how effective it is, what safeguards or oversight (if any) are in place, or whether there has been any abuse. All of these facts are highly relevant to any policy analysis of the program and can only be determined through further investigation.
Nevertheless, the same Republicans who claim that Russ Feingold's legal pronouncements are uninformed and premature are unwilling to investigate this program and appear determined to press ahead with legislation that would render it legal (at least going forward).
Before long, Democrats (and Republicans) in the House and Senate will be forced to vote on this legislation, which, if passed, will gut the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, a law that has governed the surveillance of Americans for almost 28 years and has been fine-tuned by Congress on numerous occasions (most recently two weeks ago). Between now and the time that bill comes up for a vote, there will be no Congressional investigation, no further fact-finding. Indeed, for most members of Congress, there will not even be a classified briefing. Our representatives and senators will be asked to legislate in the dark, to make a policy judgment about a program of which they know virtually nothing--except, of course, that it's currently illegal.
When that day comes--and it will--what do Democratic Senators plan to do? They won't know any more about the program than they know now, and they will be expected to make a policy judgment, not a legal one. They'll be expected to vote "yay" or "nay" on a bill called the Terrorist Surveillance Act of 2006. Do they really think that if they just lay low and remain agnostic, this issue will go away? Do they think they'll be able to punt on this issue indefinitely?
This battle cannot be avoided (nor should it be). Democrats can either choose to set the terms of the debate by going on the offensive and supporting Feingold's resolution, or they can once again allow the GOP to define the debate. Instead of a debate over censure we can have a debate over the Terrorist Surveillance Act of 2006.
As the minority party in Congress, the only weapon the Democrats have is symbolism. Feingold's censure resolution offers a platform for Democrats to frame the upcoming debate, to explain to America that President Bush broke the law and that his own party has refused to investigate it. It is an opportunity to put the administration on the defensive. If the GOP then moves ahead with an attempt to legalize the President's conduct, the Democrats will have already made it clear to the public why they cannot support such a bill. Their opposition will seem principled and consistent. The Terrorist Surveillance Act will look like what it is, a piece of cover-your-ass legislation introduced only after the President had been caught red-handed breaking the law.
If the Democrats wait until the DeWine bill comes to the floor to speak up, they will once again come across as indecisive and weak. They will allow the administration to frame this issue as one of terrorism policy, as opposed to presidential law-breaking.
This issue is not going to go away. The context in which it plays out is entirely up to Democrats in the Senate.
An excellent post AL which goes right to the heart of the reason why it is so important for the Dems to finally stand up and take a stand. It is getting to be an old refrain here that they need to do so if they want to end their reign as the minority party. I don't know what it will take to get them to take action but posts such as yours are definitely a step in the right direction.
ReplyDeleteBush went to Cleveland and asked, "does anybody work here in this town?" He should have skipped the trip. This question should be asked in Washington.
ReplyDeleteBut while the censure debate is ripe for discussion, the greater policy debate is most certainly not. We don't know how the program works, what technology or processes it employs, how effective it is, what safeguards or oversight (if any) are in place, or whether there has been any abuse. All of these facts are highly relevant to any policy analysis of the program and can only be determined through further investigation.
ReplyDeleteThis information, if it were ever revealed, would render the NSA surveillance program useless, as it would give our mortal enemies the tools they need to circumvent it. It would be akin to revealing the to the Wehrmacht that we broke the Enigma codes during WWII.
The effect of destroying the NSA program will be to provide an avenue for our enemies to maintain command and control capabilities beyond the reach of our military counter-intelligence forces. If this is your motive, it is treasonous. If it is not, perhaps you would care to explain how you are not giving aid and comfort to our mortal enemies by calling for the disclosure of the "technology and processes" that underly the NSA surveillance program?
'When that day comes -- and it will -- what do Democratic Senators plan to do?'
ReplyDeleteYou know, for bright people, you and Glenn are often not so bright.
Democratic Senators will vote "yea" to gutting FISA, "yea" to making warrantless searches legal, "yea" to institutionalizing the policy -- and Democratic Senators will defend their votes in terms that will be difficult to distinguish from those of the 'Bush-supporters.'
Democratic Senators will proclaim that the policy is a good policy, even though they will have no evidence.
The Democrats ought to do this, the Democrats might do that -- why bother?
ReplyDeleteFor all Feingold's heroism, does anyone actually expect the piss-weak Democrats to suddenly find their integrity and start thinking about anything other than their own careers?
For all Feingold's heroism, does anyone actually expect the piss-weak Democrats to suddenly find their integrity and start thinking about anything other than their own careers?
ReplyDeleteActually, the reason that the Democrats will not pursue this destructive and insane crusade is because most of them are patriots who know that the censure of our president during wartime would give immeasurable aid to our enemies while our troops are in the field of battle.
It simply is not going to happen.
jao,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your commment. It's insightful as always. But I think you overstate the "colorability" of the inherent authority argument. There is no case law or constitutional text which supports that argument, and as you point out, the administration itself clearly doesn't believe the argument has any chance of flying in court.
Secondly, I agree that, ideally, it would be nice to know how the administration's legal thinking evolved before voting on censure. It would be nice to have copies of the administration's internal legal opinions and memos. But that's not going to happen. There is not going to be any further investigation and requests for those memos have been repeatedly denied.
I view censure as a means to an end. As a way of, hopefully, pressuring the GOP to begin investigating this issue. Or, at the very least, laying the political groundwork for eventual opposition to the "Terrorist Surveilance Act."
Frankly, I don't see what other options the Democrats have at this point. They have no other cards to play.
'Frankly, I don't see what other options the Democrats have at this point. They have no other cards to play.'
ReplyDeleteYou've just got to be kidding!
The Democrats will play their 'we approve/endorse/legalize/hide behind the President's actions card.'
Great post - I hope to God that this is printed out and sent, individually by mail, to every single Democratic Congressman/woman.
ReplyDeleteBravo.
ReplyDeleteBush right now has zero credibility. I for one do not take it for granted that Bush has broken the law. A more plausible explanation is that he has told yet another lie for political purposes.
ReplyDeleteA more important matter for the Senate is to investigate the matter to determine if Bush is lying or in fact broke the law.
It has to be emphasized: simply stated, if censure is premature and should await further investigation, what possible justification is there to go forward with any legislation - DeWine, Specter, whatever - until there is further investigation? It is legislating in the dark, as AL put it.
ReplyDeleteOne more thing: Anonymous said, the censure of our president during wartime would give immeasurable aid to our enemies while our troops are in the field of battle.
Did Anonymous plagiarize that from Ben Domenech?
owenz said...
ReplyDeleteDid everyone get a load of Bush's signing statement for the Patriot Act?
A.L. posted over at his own website about the hypocracy of Bush on the one hand flouting the FISA law but championing the Patriot Act (which updates FISA, the same law he is flouting). I am sure A.L. will have an opinion on the signing statement issue.
”To know whether or not something is good policy you generally need to know ALL the facts. That's just the nature of policy analysis. One small detail can turn an otherwise good policy into a spectacularly bad one.”
ReplyDeleteWell, one not-so-small detail we do know should give everyone pause. As a result of NSA surveillance, thousands of investgative hours by FBI agents were wasted running down blind alleys and dead ends. In important ways the NSA program the administration contrived in response to 9/11 seems to magnify the problem that allowed 9/11 to happen, a failure of intelliegnece and law enforcemment to separate the wheat from the chaffe.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0117-01.htm
Bush quietly attached a signing statement to the US Patriot Act.
ReplyDeleteSee Andrew Sullivan's blog w/ link to the Boston Globe article:
http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/03/king_george_wat.html
At 12:17pm an anonymous stated: "the censure of our president during wartime would give immeasurable aid to our enemies while our troops are in the field of battle."
ReplyDeletePerhaps the commentator would care to explain how a nonbinding resolution by the Senate that simply states the President knowingly ignored a US statute (something the President himself has publically but has not yet explained), said resolution in no way, shape or form impedes or impairs his position as Commander-in-Chief, nor which calls for any legal sanction of the man or his Office...
How EXACTLY does that give "immeasurable aid and comfort" to our undefined enemy?
And let me anticipate the immediate response of "it undermines his authority". NEWS FLASH: the President and his staff have ALREADY DONE THAT! He's virtually a laughing stock both here and abroad, his Administration a demonstrated collection of barely competent cronies and confidence men, and his capacity to govern the country virtually nill.
Calling him on his law-breaking does nothing to his public standing other than confirming what pretty much everyone who has been paying attention the last six years already knows.
So, please tell us how this censure gives "aid and comfort" to an enemy you can't even define or identify?
So, please tell us how this censure gives "aid and comfort" to an enemy you can't even define or identify?
ReplyDeleteThere are two enemy factions we are currently fighting in Iraq and elsewhere. The first, whom we are fighting on multiple fronts, including Iraq, are the al Qaeda soldiers and their Islamic fascist comrades located throughout the world. The second, whom we are fighting largely on Iraqi soil, are the Sunni Baathist remnants drawn from the old Republican Guard and the notorious Fedayeen Saddam brigades.
I simply don't believe that you don't understand how the formal censure of our president by Congress will give immeasurable aid and comfort to both sets of our enemies. I'm quite convinced, actually, after reading other comments of yours in this and other threads, that you would be more than pleased to see this actually happen. I think you ardently hope for the defeat of the United States in this war because, if for no other reason, it will bring about the disgrace and humiliation of a man for whom you have a intensely pathological hatred, i.e., the president, George Bush.
...shut the fuck up...
ReplyDeleteGetting a little testy, are we?
Actually declaring war would be of immeasurable aid to our soldiers in the field, and would deal a blow to our "enemies".
ReplyDeleteOf course, to declare war, the administration would actually have to know, and say, who it is they are declaring war on!
Are you confused as to whom we're fighting in this war?
And why the scare quotes around the word enemies? Are you suggesting that the men we're fighting are not our enemies? Or are you suggesting that we are the enemy?
I can't take comments like this seriously.
ReplyDeleteYes, I believe you.
anonymous -
ReplyDeleteIf you can't actually *answer* the question, just say so.
Its rather rude to evacuate your bowls in public. Not to mention unhygenic.
Or were those rude noise you were making your effort at insulting me? They really did a number on you in Room 201, didn't they?
Its rather rude to evacuate your bowls in public. Not to mention unhygenic (sic).
ReplyDeleteThis is yet another example of using scatological references as an insult technique. This seems to be a phenomenon exclusive to the left - using defecation and urination similes to cast aspersions on an online opponent.
It is strange how often it is used in this blog.
annonymous -
ReplyDeleteAgain, if you can't answer the question, just say so.
I'm wasting my time, aren't I?
So are you a John Bircher?
ReplyDeleteNo, I am not. I am a long time conservative activist and writer who enjoys jousting in leftist blogs. If I were to give myself a label I would be proud to be known as a Robert Bartley conservative.
Again, if you can't answer the question, just say so.
ReplyDeleteIf I thought you were serious about having a dialogue, I would address your questions. But I think it's clear you're only interested in exchanging insults, and that is a truly boring exercise.
Bartley's just as hysterical.
ReplyDeleteRobert Bartley is dead. He died on December 10, 2003.
annonymous -
ReplyDeleteAll you have replied with is empty, discredited talking points and excuses, not an actual position that addresses the question put to you. Worse, you actively try to dodge the question itself as if it is beneath you.
Again, if you can't actually answer the question, just say so.
I won't hold my breath.
Doesn't make his editorials any less hysterical, today.
ReplyDeleteBob Bartley was a brilliant, funny, and deeply learned man who was as far from "hysterical" as it is possible for a human to be. I challenge you to post a link to a single editorial of his that can in any way be characterized as "hysterical."
heartily agree with Senators DeWine and Specter that what's needed is more laws.
ReplyDeleteI expect that a modified version of the DeWine bill will be signed into law within the next few weeks. It will completely revamp the FISA law to conform to modern technolgical realities, and it will remove any lingering legal uncertainties regarding the president's authority to conduct warrantless surveillance of our mortal enemies.
Trudy Lieberman's 1996 CJR piece attacking the WSJ editorial page is well-done, well-researched, and worth reading. I enjoyed it and I image Bob Bartley did as well. Even so, I don't think it supports your contention that the WSJ editorials are "hysterical."
ReplyDeleteBob Bartley loved the fray as much as anyone. He could deliver a hard punch in the ring and did so often, but he could take a punch too. He had no glass jaw. I'd like to see if the WSJ every responded to her piece, as I have never seen it before, so I'll do a little research to find out. If they did, I'll post a link here.
So why waste time passing another law?
ReplyDeleteBecause that's what Congress does. They are behind the eight ball in this controversy and need to save face. The DeWine bill is a face-saving measure that will have no effect whatsoever on our current policy...but it will give our inept and impotent national legislature something to do besides recklessly spending our tax money on bridges to nowhere.
Again, could you explain who these mortal enemies are?
I've done this already in a previous comment. You've read it. Why are you asking again?
Now, if your definition of "mortal enemies" is US citizens inside this country, and you're too much of a coward about the spooky Islamofascists among us to uphold the Bill of Rights...
There are undoubtedly al Qaeda operatives in this country working to do great damage to us if they are given the opportunity. They get their marching orders from the al Qaeda leadership abroad. We need to listen to what they are saying to one another. That is why this program is so vital to our national security. If nothing else, the program will make it far more difficult for al Qaeda to exercise command and control than they otherwise would if the program wasn't in place. That alone is worth the price we pay in the slight diminution of our civil liberties...much like that which we surrender at airports when we are searched without warrants.
Granted, FISA allows for retroactive warrants in the case of domestic wiretapping, but that's just way too much hard paperwork for this administration, isn't it?
It's more complicated than that. I've never been able to comprehend why you're so obsessed with having some obscure judge wave his wand over a surveillance operation weeks after it has taken place. Does this action somehow make you feel more secure in your person and effects? It makes absolutely no sense.
Either that, or he's a fucking liar.
ReplyDeleteAnother explanation is that he was trying to lull our enemies into a false sense of security.
Perhaps if you weren't filled with such hatred for the president you might consider alternative explanations to your simplistic views on this very important issue.
Conservatives will never succeed in distancing their failed ideology from Bush. His biography blends all the threads of modern conservatism that is really a marriage of corporate interests and theocracy. He’s a mediocre man born into wealth, who never had to prove himself in a meritocracy and found religion. Through the network of his family name Bush became President and launched a war that appealed to corporatists and theocrats alike. How much more conservative can one be?
ReplyDeleteConservatives like to portray their ideology as a celebration of self-made men with optimism. In reality though, the poster boy for conservatism is not Ronald Reagan. It’s George W. Bush – a man with wealth he didn’t earn honestly who believes the apocalypse is just around the corner.
Read, Lancing the Boil, in the Intrepid Liberal Journal.
Because no independent oversight whatsoever leaves my Constitutional rights so much more secure than "some obscure judge" with his magic wand.
ReplyDeleteOn the battlefield there isn't any "independent oversight." Most people, including 95% of the Senate and House, consider this program vital to national security, part of the battle against al Qaeda. They want it to continue in its present form, and are going to work together to effectuate that outcome.
Your sneering sarcasm notwithstanding, your objections to the program have nothing to do with the political and military exigencies that underlie this debate.
We're at war, and there isn't any law on the battlefield. Most Americans understand this...some here apparently do not.
Law enforcement agencies (Feds only?) can arrest and imprison american citizens indefinitely without charging citizens with any crime merely by labeling them 'enemy combatants'
ReplyDeleteOn the battlefield, sure...would you have it any other way?
Law enforcement agencies (presumably all levels, not just the feds) can listen in on the phone conversations of citizens without applying for a warrant.
No one has proposed this, no one will propose this and there is no such policy in effect. This is silly paranoia.
Law enforcement agencies can torture, well, anyone, legally.
Again, this does not occur and will never occur in this country under any circumstances.
The executive claims by writing a 'signing statement' the executive need not follow laws passed by congress.
This has always been common practice in the United States and every single president has, in various circumstances, carried out the practice from time to time.
Well, if the terrorists hate us for our freedoms, the terrorists just lost a boatload of reasons to hate us...
Oh come on. How absurd. Your freedom hasn't been compromised in the smallest degree. All you need not do is have a conversation with a fellow from al Qaeda. If you don't do that you can be sure anyone listening to your telephone is doing so under a warrant issued by a judge who declares there is probable cause that you're committing a crime.
anonymous:
ReplyDelete[thor likes pizza]: Well, if the terrorists hate us for our freedoms, the terrorists just lost a boatload of reasons to hate us...
Oh come on. How absurd. Your freedom hasn't been compromised in the smallest degree. All you need not do is have a conversation with a fellow from al Qaeda. If you don't do that you can be sure anyone listening to your telephone is doing so under a warrant issued by a judge who declares there is probable cause that you're committing a crime.
As I've pointed out way too many times here and elsewhere (and as the RW trolls keep ignoring), this is simply untrue. If you're calling al Qaeda overseas, they can record your conversation without a warrant. If they want to tap your other calls (i.e., they want to make you the "target" and put the tap on your MDN/MSISDN), then they need to get a warrant.
But watch, "anonymous" the trolll here will ignore this fact once again..... Of course he'll ignore it; he can't refute it (cuz it's true), and it interferes with the "talking points" he's been tasked to propagate....
Cheers,
AL says: “One small detail can turn an otherwise good policy into a spectacularly bad one.”
ReplyDeleteLet us step away from the tired facts of NSA, but keep the same rules, and consider: We are in the hallway of an old downtown office building and there is a problem. A young political protester has tried to drop a stink-bomb over the transom (it is an OLD office building) and has caught his backpack strap on the transom and is strangling. An erstwhile conservative visitor to the hallway sees that the young “ demonstrator” is in danger of asphyxiation. He sees a fire axe behind glass. There is a sign that (correctly) says : “For Fire Use Only”. Breaking the glass and using the axe other than for a fire is a misdemeanor. The conservative breaks the glass, grabs the axe and, with one stroke, frees the demonstrator, who runs off after complaining about the harm to his backpack strap.
A group of liberals gathers. Knowing that the conservative is a conservative, one large liberal straight-arms him against the wall and whips out a copy of the law making the use of the axe a misdemeanor and announces: “I have called 911 and the police are on the way. We liberals have had all the law-breaking we are going to put up with from you conservatives. Your *ss is going to jail and we’ll have your job too. “ The conservative replies: “You are right, I had a knife and I could have easily used it instead of the axe. Please, oh please, don’t hurt me.”.
Yeah, right. A real conservative would say something like “OK, I broke the law. I’d do it again to save a life. What is the matter with you whackos?” End of story.
What’s the point of this story? Well, as much as the liberals wish to crucify the conservative, however this little play works out, in the real world the conservative is not going to jail and will not lose his job. Might he be hailed as a hero?. I never said that.
Yet, the following will all be true: that “he broke the law”, “we are a nation of laws”, “he admitted it”, “the law is for a good purpose”(having an axe when a fire breaks out), etc. And etc. Doesn’t matter. AL is correct. The small detail of the saving of a life that would otherwise be lost turns the situation into something other than a simple “was a law broken”.
What those braying about the NSA “scandal” fail to realize is that the jury (Democratic Senators and the general public) are only too aware of that small detail. And guess what? They are saying: “Break the glass to save my *ss”.
It ain’t rocket science.
Does the roof have to fall on you? So get a grip. Hang in there on getting more investigation. Maybe some venal use of the surveillance can be found. THEN, get excited.
As I've pointed out way too many times here and elsewhere (and as the RW trolls keep ignoring), this is simply untrue. If you're calling al Qaeda overseas, they can record your conversation without a warrant. If they want to tap your other calls (i.e., they want to make you the "target" and put the tap on your MDN/MSISDN), then they need to get a warrant.
ReplyDeleteThat's exactly what I wrote. What's your beef?
Anonomous troll:
ReplyDeleteIt's not complicated. The terrorists win when we dismantle our system of government based on fear of what they will do to us if we dont. You're wasting your time here.
(Hat tip to a commenter also designated "Anonymous" on a previous thread who used pretty much the same language that I borrowed from above.)
Ive noticed that trolls are dealt with on other boards by not giving them as much attention. Trolls have but one purpose - to disrupt the discussion. Time spent dealing with trolls is time not spent hashing this stuff out. "Anonymous" is here because somebody feels threatened by the discussion here. Which tells me the discussion is all the more necessary. Thanks, troll. Im ignoring you now so dont bother replying. Bu-bye.
Most trolls distinguish themselves by repetition of arguments, ad hominem attacks such as "you are objectively pro-terrorist" and similar garbage. I guess it takes something of a trained eye to recognize a troll at first blush but sometimes they have their calling card right out front.
For anyone who has the time I recently found this useful resource on trolls:
http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html
/na-dir/net-abuse-faq/troll-faq.html
Probably Ben D's newly revealed playbook lays out the strategy of all trolls.
ReplyDeleteSomeone should run "who know that the censure of our president during wartime would give immeasurable aid to our enemies while our troops are in the field of battle" against old John Birch pamphlets to see if that's exactly where it's lifted from.
Trolls enjoy playing games, and always give you clues to amuse themselves.