Thursday, March 30, 2006

What the FISA judges really said

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By Anonymous Liberal

(updated below)
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Yesterday the Washington Times published an article with the headline: "FISA judges say Bush within law." The article, by Brian DeBose, reported:

A panel of former Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court judges yesterday told members of the Senate Judiciary Committee that President Bush did not act illegally when he created by executive order a wiretapping program conducted by the National Security Agency (NSA).

Bush's defenders wasted no time jumping to the conclusion that Bush had been vindicated and all this talk of FISA and illegality was utter nonsense. One small problem: the article is complete and utter rubbish. Even some of Bush's chief apologists sensed something was amiss; a New York Times article by Eric Lichtblau provided an entirely different account of the hearing.

Five former judges on the nation's most secretive court, including one who resigned in apparent protest over President Bush's domestic eavesdropping, urged Congress on Tuesday to give the court a formal role in overseeing the surveillance program.

In a rare glimpse into the inner workings of the secretive court, known as the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, several former judges who served on the panel also voiced skepticism at a Senate hearing about the president's constitutional authority to order wiretapping on Americans without a court order.

They also suggested that the program could imperil criminal prosecutions that grew out of the wiretaps.

But both Hinderaker and Goldstein were pretty sure that the transcript, which neither of them had read, would vindicate DeBose and embarrass Lichtblau.

I've now read through the transcript, and not surprisingly, it's clear that Lichtblau was awake during the hearing and DeBose was, well, very confused.

He's not the only one, though. Hindrocket now claims to have read through the transcript as well and has cranked out a post entitled "Verdict: The New York Times Blew the Story." He claims that the New York Times "badly misled its readers" and that the Washington Times story "was fair, but arguably overstated."

Okay, let's review the facts. The transcript of the hearing--which is very long--is only available via subscription, so you're going to have to take my word for now. A total of five judges testified in person, and one submitted written testimony. All of the judges made it crystal clear that they had no intention of opining on the legality of the NSA program ("we will not be testifying today with regard to the present program implemented by President Bush"). The judges were there to testify about FISA and about the merits of Sen. Specter's proposed legislation to amend FISA.

The bulk of the testimony by the judges was in praise of FISA and in praise of Specter's proposed bill (which is clearly why Specter called them to testify in the first place). Although the judges were careful not to opine about the NSA program specifically, it was clear from their testimony that they believe further Congressional authorization is necessary and desirable and that the judiciary has an important and indispensable role to play in overseeing domestic surveillance.

Their agenda, to the extent they had one, was to lobby for the continued relevance of the FISA court. If the DeWine bill passes, the FISA court will be utterly marginalized. These judges realize that some sort of legislation is likely to be passed, and they'd undoubtedly prefer something along the lines of Specter's bill, which would at least require the court to approve surveillance on a program-wide level.

I can assure you, though, that at no point did any of the judges come anywhere close to saying that the president "did not act illegally" or that he acted "within the law" when he authorized the NSA warrantless surveillance program. So the Washington Times story is complete rubbish. It could not possibly be more misleading.

As for Lichtblau's article, the line that seems to have provoked the strongest reaction from the right-wing blogs is his statement that "several former judges who served on the panel also voiced skepticism at a Senate hearing about the president's constitutional authority to order wiretapping on Americans without a court order." John Hinderaker says that this sentence "is simply wrong" and that he "can't find a single line in more than 100 pages of transcript that supports Lichtblau's reporting." Steven Spruiell of the NRO Media Blog echoes this sentiment: "the transcript I read indicates that the exact opposite is true."

Well, maybe I can help them out. Though the judges were very diplomatic in their choice of words, there is still plenty of support for Lichtblau's statement in the transcript. For instance, Judge Robertson's written testimony (which Specter read aloud) states: "Seeking judicial approval for government activities that implicate constitutional guarantees is, of course, the American way."

Judge Brotman said:

FISA has worked and worked well. It is a necessary court and its orders reflect the balance to which I have made reference. It has no ax to grind, this court. Judicial review provides confidence to the citizens of our country to know that a court has looked on what is being sought. Times change. Methodology changes. Equipment changes.

Processes change. All these things can be and should be accommodated with the FISA Court.

Judge Stafford said:

As I approach my 75th birthday, it remains my belief that our nation is really held together by a couple pieces of paper -- the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution -- and the belief of the American people that our system of government works. FISA was created by Congress to clarify that the president had the authority to conduct foreign intelligence surveillance, but that the president would do so through a court composed of judges who had been nominated for lifetime appointments by a president and confirmed by the Senate as provided in Article III of the Constitution. This arrangement seems to have worked well for everyone.

The testimony of Magistrate Judge Allan Kornblum, whom Hinderaker and DeBose quote extensively, was a bit hard to follow, but even he said some things that support Lichtblau's assertion:

The presidential authority that is being used today is being used unilaterally. I think all of the judges agree with me that when the president operates unilaterally, his power is at its lowest ebb, as has been mentioned in judicial decisions.

This is, of course, the holding of Youngstown and a principle which Hinderaker has refused to acknowledge as being relevant to this issue. Kornblum explains further:

But when Congress passes a law, such as one authorizing the surveillance program targeting communications networks -- when the Congress does that and the judiciary has a role in overseeing it, well then the executive branch's authority is at its maximum. What that means is they can do things, I believe, under an amended FISA statute that they cannot do now.

This is as clear a statement as any that the president cannot simply do whatever he feels is necessary, regardless of what the law says. Earlier in his testimony, Kornblum observed:

I also want to emphasize that the real success of the FISA statute is that it's proven indisputably that intelligence and counterintelligence activities are fully
enhanced by the rule of law and, in fact, are fully compatible with the rule of law.

And:

I would also reiterate that the president doesn't have a carte blanche, that the courts are the arm of government that determines what the president's constitutional authority is.

One last thing before I go. In reading through the transcript, I noticed that Sen. Specter opened the proceedings by telling the panel:

Before you begin your testimony, it is our practice to swear in witnesses, so I'd ask you all to rise.

So now it's the committee's practice, huh? Funny how things change.

UPDATE (by Glenn): As I point out in my Comment here, the claims by The Washington Times, predictably parroted by Powerline and company, are based on several transparent myths that one can believe only if one has a complete lack of understanding as to how our system of government works.

Intellectually bankrupt Bush apologists have long been propagating the myth that once it's established that the President would have a certain power in the absence of a Congressional statute (such as the power to engage in warrantless eavesdropping for foreign intelligence purposes), then it necessarily means that the power can never be limited by Congress. But our entire system of government -- and the entire point of Youngstown -- is that a President may have the right to act in a certain area in the absence of a Congressional statute, but once Congress regulates in that area, then the President can't exercise that power in a way that violates the law.

Anyone who says: "the President has the right to do X under the Constitution and therefore Congress can never regulate it" just has no idea how our system of Government works.

No need to take my word for it. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales even explained these basic precepts -- slowly enough so that they should be understood by everyone -- when he testified before the Judiciary Committee:

GONZALES: Well, the fact that the president, again, may have inherent authority doesn't mean that Congress has no authority in a particular area. And when we look at the words of the Constitution, and there are clear grants of authority to the Congress in a time of war.

And so if we're talking about competing constitutional interests, that's when you get into, sort of, the third part of the Jackson analysis.

Let's repeat what Gonzales said for those unwilling or -- in the case of Powerline -- unable to process it: "the fact that the president, again, may have inherent authority doesn't mean that Congress has no authority in a particular area."

That's 8th Grade civics. The three branches of Government share responsibility for the functions of Government. So the fact that the President can engage in surveillance to defend the Nation doesn't mean that Congress can't regulate how that power is used against American citizens on American soil. FISA was in place and adhered to by every Presidential Administration - Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton. Nobody ever suggested it was unconstitutional -- including the Bush Administration -- until they got caught violating it and needed an excuse.

Moreover, these judges who testified made as clear as they could make it that they were not there to testify as to the legality of the NSA program. Anyone who thinks they did does not understand how the judiciary works.

Judges don't run around freely opining on legal disputes. And these judges weren't purporting to do that, as they made clear. What they did instead was what judges do in these circumstances - spout general propositions of law which, in this case, as A.L. demonstrated, support the conclusion that the President does not have the right to violate the law.

198 comments:

  1. Anonymous8:22 AM

    An explanation for:

    Before you begin your testimony, it is our practice to swear in witnesses, so I'd ask you all to rise.

    The Kings emissaries are not "witnesses". When they speak, they speak with the full force and authority of the King.

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  2. Anonymous9:09 AM

    Bart, what you said: "No, the only grossly wrong report on this hearing was by New York Times reporter Eric Lichtblau, who co-authored the original NYT article which disclosed the NSA Program..."

    The jury is still out, but if it is true that Lichtblau is the author of the original [allegedly criminal] report, I think that I must change sides. The NYT version is full of it. Final answer.

    jao, [and AL] crank up the spin machine.

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  3. I was just wondering, where are the other press accounts of this story? Why are there just two reporters with totally conflicting versions reporting it? Who else has reported this story?

    Also, a theme going through all of the right wing blogs is that Lichtblau (and the New York Times) can’t be trusted on this issue at all because, as Ed Morrisey insists “that undermines the whole premise of his book – and can’t be tolerated.”

    But the opposite is also true. Powerline and their allies are waging a war against the New York Times with hopes of getting the reporters who broke this story charged with treason (or at the very least intimidating the media into reporting Bush-friendly versions of events).

    This war, waged by Powerline and their cohorts, entitles them to their own version of the “facts” and no matter what the judges said, they are going to conclude that the New York Times is lying to protect itself and its reporters from criminal charges.

    This post by Hindraker is just another shot in this war against the Times, and it really doesn’t matter what the judges said, he’s creating his own “reality.”

    The facts be damned, full speed ahead.

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  4. Anonymous9:32 AM

    Get a grip, Zack. The truth may fall either way, but to knee-jerk into flinging up your right arm and shouting "zeig NYT" is a bit premature, don't you think? Yes, there is an editor, but...

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  5. Thanks for this. I was reading Memeorandum and the Powerline articles, certain they were misrepresenting something, especially since they cite a Moonie Times article as their source. Given Hinderacker's known tendencies for selective and misleading quotations, I was concerned when I couldn't get to the full transcript.

    The bottom line here is that people who were frightened by 9/11 continue to defend a President who has cynically used that event to subvert constitutional processes for his political ends. Cheney/Bush want to have an executive with unfettered power. While there can be a proper give and take over the extent of the branches powers over each other, as the framers intended, this Administration has gone far beyond that. Any serious student of American constitutional and political history can see Yoo's theories for the unsupported claptrap they are. Have they reached the constitutional breaking point of high crimes and misdemeanors? From what I have seen over the past few months, the Administration's continued assertion that it is unrestrained by laws duly enacted by Congress and signed by the President has brought us to that point. The FISA judges' testimony is another line in a bill of impeachment: has the President ignored the Constitution by (1) establishing the program without Congressional or judicial oversight and (2) his insistence that neither of the other branches has any right to oversee the programs? I'm certainly hearing enough from their testimony to say that it supports those questions being asked in a serious and open mannner (not that that's happened yet), and enough has been said all around to have the House pass a bill of impeachment.

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  6. Anonymous9:47 AM

    &ArchiveDaC-SPAN has full video. Scroll down to "Senate Hearing to Examine NSA's Surveillance Authority".

    Halperin's statement to the Committee can be read here. Check the site often, they may have transcripts later.

    Also there is a fantastic resource on NSA/FISA scandal to be found here.

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  7. The truth may fall either way, but to knee-jerk into flinging up your right arm and shouting "zeig NYT" is a bit premature, don't you think?

    My point is that Powerline doesn’t believe that the truth can fall either way, they believe that New York Times reporters are intentionally lying to protect themselves from criminal charges.

    Also, there are plenty of quotes (A.L. provided a few) that show that the judges have not totally agreed that Bush can do whatever he wants regardless of the laws, quite the contrary.

    Those quotes totally undermine the theme (among some right-wing blogs) that this is a total victory for Bush, and that the FISA judges agree with what he has done.

    I see nothing in either Powerline or the Washington Times that proves that the New York Times was intentionally deceptive in its reporting on this subject. Nothing.

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  8. Anonymous10:10 AM

    Glenn:

    Powerline and Goldstein are not even worthy of serious consideration simply ridicule.

    You make a mistake to address them in serious fashion.

    Volokh, Kerr, Whelan? Definitely.

    But Assrocket and Goldstein? Please.

    Armando at daily kos.

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  9. Anonymous10:27 AM

    Wasn't Glenn at one time confident that Specter's bill was bad and would not pass?

    How does Glenn (or you A.L.) feel about Specter's bill and its prospects today?

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  10. Anonymous10:30 AM

    Wouldn't it be fair to characterize passage of EITHER the DeWine or the Specter bills as a victory for Bush -- especially if there is no censure for Bush's extra-legal actions?

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  11. Anonymous11:20 AM

    I appreciate Glenn's comparative analysis of the NYT and WT articles; and I agree with his conclusion. But I simply do not understand how he could have left out of the mix the NYT's quotation from Judge Harold A. Baker: "the president ignores it at the president's peril."

    To me, this goes to the crux of the conflicting characterizations. If Baker said it, then the NYT take is indisputably accurate.

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  12. Anonymous11:21 AM

    LOL,

    The FISA Court of Review judges and now the foremost FISA expert judges have acknowledged Bush's inherent powers and yet a poster calls them half-baked legal analysis and boilerplate answers.

    There is plenty of caselaw. The vast majority of the FISA judges interviewed obviously have no inclination to stretch Youngstown as far as you do to eliminate inherent powers.

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  13. Anonymous11:22 AM

    "Magic Bullet" Specter to the rescue -- he bailed out the lying liars after jfk was killed and you can bet he will put on a "grand show" and cover this up too.

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  14. Anonymous11:36 AM

    Anonymous said...

    Wouldn't it be fair to characterize passage of EITHER the DeWine or the Specter bills as a victory for Bush -- especially if there is no censure for Bush's extra-legal actions?

    In the sense that a convicted murderer has his death penalty commuted to life in prison without the possibility of parole the answer to your question is yes.

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  15. Anonymous11:42 AM

    Wouldn't it be fair to characterize passage of EITHER the DeWine or the Specter bills as a victory for Bush -- especially if there is no censure for Bush's extra-legal actions?

    There will be no censure. The Senate will endorse the president's NSA surveillance program with Patriot Act sized majorities, and Russ Feingold will emerge as the standard bearer of the fever swamp wing of the Democratic Party.

    All-in-all a win for everyone concerned.

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  16. Anonymous11:48 AM

    this business of picking and choosing who to swear in

    really bothers me.

    gonzales should have been sworn in.

    specter's decision not to swear him in could only mean that gonzales was expected to lie,

    o.k.

    to tread warily around the truth.

    or to refuse to testify

    or to take the fifth.


    the corruption of custom and process

    that the republican radicals are bringing to government is more troubling to me than the money corruption.

    we have always had crooked politiicans

    but, too,

    we have always had long-established customs and procedures,

    sort of the political equivalent of stare decisis

    for conducting our public busnesss.

    those customs and processes are being ignored and eroded by decisions like specter's

    to swear some in one day and not to swear others in another day.


    and this is not the first time the republcian radicals in congress have done that

    recall the oil executives.



    specter's and other radical's

    (yeah , i know, you think specter is a "moderate". you're wrong.

    he is a de facto radical.)

    really is

    a slippery slope

    becasue customs and processes depend on continuously given interpersonal consent.

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  17. Anonymous11:54 AM

    Are there one or two "anonymouses" here? I think that everyone should be required to have an identity, just so the argument can be followed.

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  18. Anonymous11:55 AM

    From anonymous at 11:42AM:

    "There will be no censure. The Senate will endorse the president's NSA surveillance program with Patriot Act sized majorities, and Russ Feingold will emerge as the standard bearer of the fever swamp wing of the Democratic Party."

    I grant censure is very, very unlikely right now. The Senate bill will likely pass (though I have yet to hear about a corresponding measure from the House), though by what margins we have yet to see.

    As for Senator Feingold, well, if he's representative of some 'fever swamp', I suspect many of the commentators here are there with him (those that actually respect the Rule of Law, expect our elected officials to obey it, and are willing to call them on it when they break it, that is).

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  19. From here

    'I am very wary of inherent authority'' claimed by presidents, testified U.S. Magistrate Judge Allan Kornblum. ''It sounds very much like King George.''

    I was a bit weary of the Washington Times article when I saw this.

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  20. Anonymous12:12 PM

    If I'm not mistaken, the Washington Post----yes, posted the transcript from the Gonzales hearing. Why can't they or the NY Times or the Washington Times (or somebody else who can pay for the transcription from the video--doesn't Media Matters spend a lot of money on transcription services?--) post the transcript?

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  21. Anonymous12:15 PM

    Anonymous said...

    There will be no censure. The Senate will endorse the president's NSA surveillance program with Patriot Act sized majorities, and Russ Feingold will emerge as the standard bearer of the fever swamp wing of the Democratic Party.

    All-in-all a win for everyone concerned.

    It would be far more accurate to claim it as a win for the third of the population that still support Bush. That hardly includes everyone, in fact it doesn't even include a majority.

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  22. From the AP article:

    The judges stressed that they were not offering their views on the NSA operation, which they said they knew nothing about.

    Yet, doesn’t the Washington Times (Powerline etc.) claim that not only did they offer their views, but pronounced Bush’s actions within the law?

    A panel of former Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court judges yesterday told members of the Senate Judiciary Committee that President Bush did not act illegally when he created by executive order a wiretapping program conducted by the National Security Agency (NSA).

    So now we have AP contradicting the Washington Times too. It sure looks that way.

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  23. It is undisputed and the courts have universally held that the President has the Article II power to direct and conduct warrantless intelligence gathering.

    The issue is whether FISA can limit or eliminate that power.

    Kris avoided answering that question before the committee, but gave several areas of plenary Article II power which he believes Congress may not infringe. That review of the law basically gutted the expansive view of the Youngstown case claiming that Congress may pass legislation which limits or eliminates any presidential Article II power.

    Although they tried, the judges could not avoid the question entirely. This is the closest Q&A between the senators and the judges which addresses the effect of FISA on the President's Article II power:

    Judge Kornblum: Presidential authority to conduct wireless [ warrantless?] surveillance in the United States I believe exists, but it is not the President's job to determine what that authority is. It is the job of the judiciary. *** The President's intelligence authorities come from three brief elements in Article II....As you know, in Article I, Section 8, Congress has enumerated powers as well as the power to legislate all enactments necessary and proper to their specific authorities, and I believe that is what the President has, similar authority to take executive action necessary and proper to carry out his enumerated responsibilities of which today we are only talking about surveillance of Americans. ***

    Senator Feinstein: Now I want to clear something up. Judge Kornblum spoke about Congress's power to pass laws to allow the President to carry out domestic electronic surveillance, and we know that FISA is the exclusive means of so doing. Is such a law, that provides both the authority and the rules for carrying out that authority, are those rules then binding on the President?

    Judge Kornblum: No President has ever agreed to that. ***


    Senator Feinstein: What do you think as a Judge?

    Judge Kornblum: I think--as a Magistrate Judge, not a District Judge, that a President would be remiss in exercising his Constitutional authority to say that, "I surrender all of my power to a statute," and, frankly, I doubt that Congress, in a statute, can take away the President's authority, not his inherent authority, but his necessary and proper authority.

    Senator Feinstein: I would like to go down the line if I could. *** Judge Baker?

    Judge Baker: No, I do not believe that a President would say that.

    Senator Feinstein: No. I am talking about FISA, and is a President bound by the rules and regulations of FISA?

    Judge Baker: If it is held constitutional and it is passed, I suppose, just like everyone else, he is under the law too.

    ***

    Senator Feinstein: Judge?

    Judge Stafford: Everyone is bound by the law, but I do not believe, with all due respect, that even an act of Congress can limit the President's power under the Necessary and Proper Clause under the Constitution.

    ***

    Chairman Specter: I think the thrust of what you are saying is the President is bound by statute like everyone else unless it impinges on his constitutional authority, and a statute cannot take away the President's constitutional authority. Anybody disagree with that?

    [No response.]

    Chairman Specter: Everybody agrees with that.


    In contrast, the quotes presented by AL, without the context of the questions asked by the senators, all appear to argue that FISA merely enhances the Article II power which the President already possesses.

    What is clear is not a single one of these judges claimed that the President acted illegally in the exercise of his Article II power by conducting intelligence gathering without FISA warrants. Indeed, the above testimony by the FISA judges to the Senate when combined with the dicta of the FISA court of review in In re Sealed Case indicates that the FISA courts would not so find.

    AL and most of the folks here make a great deal out of the fact that the FISA judges did not opine to the Senate that the President was innocent of some crime. This wrongfully assumes that the President or anyone else accused of a crime is guilty until proven innocent. As anyone with a basic knowledge of our criminal justices system knows, the burden of proving a crime is on the accusers and the accused is assumed to be innocent until proven guilty.

    To date, the accusers against Mr. Bush have presented no judicial precedent, dicta or testimony to indicate that the President's exercise of his Article II authority is somehow illegal. Instead, Mr. Bush appears to have all of the judicial precedent, dicta and now testimony from the courts on his side.

    As to which paper - the NYT of the WT - framed this testimony most erroneously, the NYT wins hands down. In fact, New York Times reporter Eric Lichtblau flat out misled when he told NYT readers that judges "voice[d] skepticism about the president's constitutional authority." The colloquy between the Senate and the judges above pretty much puts the lie to Mr. Lichtblau's claim.

    However, AL attempts to throw a lifeline to Mr. Lichtblau's drowning credibility in the form of statements by two judges. Neither save poor Mr. Lichtblau from his deceit.

    Judge Brotman said:

    FISA has worked and worked well. It is a necessary court and its orders reflect the balance to which I have made reference. It has no ax to grind, this court. Judicial review provides confidence to the citizens of our country to know that a court has looked on what is being sought. Times change. Methodology changes. Equipment changes.

    Processes change. All these things can be and should be accommodated with the FISA Court.


    Judge Brotman makes no statement whatsoever in this quote which can be fairly held to "voice skepticism about the president's constitutional authority." He merely praises the work of his own FISA court.

    Next, Judge Stafford said:

    As I approach my 75th birthday, it remains my belief that our nation is really held together by a couple pieces of paper -- the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution -- and the belief of the American people that our system of government works. FISA was created by Congress to clarify that the president had the authority to conduct foreign intelligence surveillance, but that the president would do so through a court composed of judges who had been nominated for lifetime appointments by a president and confirmed by the Senate as provided in Article III of the Constitution. This arrangement seems to have worked well for everyone.

    Once again, Judge Stafford makes no statement whatsoever in this quote which can be fairly held to "voice skepticism about the president's constitutional authority." Indeed, he notes that Congress ratified that authority through FISA and he agreed with Judge Brotman that the FISA court "seems to have worked well for everyone." There is no comment here on whether FISA can constitutionally limit or eliminate the President's Article II authority.

    Mr. Lichtblau has a personal ax to grind in making his misrepresentation. He coauthored with James Risen the NYT article which disclosed the NSA Program to the enemy. Therefore, with the specter of an Espionage Act indictment hovering over him, Mr. Lichtblau has much to lose if this program is found to be perfectly legal.

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  26. Great post by A.L. In response to some of the comments here:

    (1) I didn't write this post - A.L. did.

    (2) I never said Specter's bill wouldn't pass, only that the White House would never support it. I still think that's true, and believe events have borne it out. If Specter's bill does pass, I think it will be because Democrats support it.

    (3) As usual, intellectually bankrupt apologists like Powerline propagate the myth that once it's established that the President would have a certain power in the absence of a Congressional statute, it necessarily means that the power can never be limited by Congress.

    Our entire system of government - and the entire point of Youngstown -- is that a President can have the right to act in a certain area in the absence of a Congressional statute, but once Congress regulates in that area, the President can't violate

    Anyone who says "the President has the right to do X under the Constitution and therefore Congress can never regulate it" just has no idea how our system of Government works.

    Gonzales even explained this when he testified to the Judiciary Committee:

    GONZALES: Well, the fact that the president, again, may have inherent authority doesn't mean that Congress has no authority in a particular area. And when we look at the words of the Constitution, and there are clear grants of authority to the Congress in a time of war.

    And so if we're talking about competing constitutional interests, that's when you get into, sort of, the third part of the Jackson analysis.


    Let's repeat what Gonzales said for those unwilling or unable to process it: "the fact that the president, again, may have inherent authority doesn't mean that Congress has no authority in a particular area."

    That's 8th Grade civics. The three branches of government share responsibility for the functions of Government. So the fact that the President can engage in surveillance to defend the Nation doesn't mean that Congress can't regulate how that power is used against American citizens on American soil.

    (4) These judges who testified made as clear as they could make it that they were NOT there to tesitfy as to the legality of the NSA program. Anyone who thinks they did does not understand how the judiciary works. Judges don't run around freely opining on legal disputes. And these judges weren't purporting to do that, as they made clear.

    (5) I love the hypocrisy of Bush apologists who have been claiming all along that nobody can know if the NSA program is legal unless they've been briefed on it. Now they want to act like the statements of these judges, who have't been briefed on it, are dispositive of the legality issues.

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  27. Left out, the actual quote on which the Washington Times story is based (from Kornblum, who helped draft FISA):

    "If a court refuses a FISA application and there is not sufficient time for the president to go to the court of review, the president can under executive order act unilaterally, which he is doing now. I think that the president would be remiss exercising his constitutional authority by giving all of that power over to a statute."

    Game, set, match.

    It's over

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  28. Anonymous12:31 PM

    Isn't all this flapdoodle over microdissecting what the judges may have meant a bit off the main concern? That is, what are constitutional the limits on executive power? Bush's signing statement on the Patriot Act said "The executive branch shall construe the provisions...that call for furnishing information to entities outside the executive branch...in a manner consistent with the president's constitutional authority to suprvise the unitary executive branch and to withhold information..." and that the president alone has the power to decide what would "impair foreign relations, national security, the deliberative process of the executive, or the performance of the executive's constitutional duties."
    What could possibly be construed as not falling under that umbrella? Bush has made it clear that he is not bound by any act of Congress, by any rule of the judiciay, or, indeed, by any act he may have signed into law. Yet no one seems to be asking what the limits of the executive are, and how those limits can be given force. Diddling with the FISA statute is really just a cynical joke until those first questions are answered.

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  29. At the UChicago Law School blog, you'll find an audio file of a debate between Richard Posner of the Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and Geoffrey Stone, Harry Kalven, Jr. Distinguished Service Professor of Law on Presidential power in the so-called Age of Terror.

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  30. "If a court refuses a FISA application and there is not sufficient time for the president to go to the court of review, the president can under executive order act unilaterally, which he is doing now.”

    When did FISA refuse one of Bush’s applications on this program? Bush didn’t even tell them about this program – they said they knew nothing about it.

    Sufficient time? Bush had years to bring this before FISA for review – he didn’t do it.

    This isn't over.

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  31. Anonymous12:44 PM

    Glenn said:

    "Our entire system of government - and the entire point of Youngstown -- is that a President can have the right to act in a certain area in the absence of a Congressional statute, but once Congress regulates in that area, the President can't violate"

    How many FISA judge experts is it going to take before you admit you are dead wrong on this issue?

    That's now at least a half dozen that have told you that the Youngstown case does not mean what you keep claiming.







    And you accuse Bush supporters of being a cult, when you are blinded by partisanship.

    ReplyDelete
  32. "If a court refuses a FISA application and there is not sufficient time for the president to go to the court of review, the president can under executive order act unilaterally, which he is doing now. I think that the president would be remiss exercising his constitutional authority by giving all of that power over to a statute."

    Game, set, match.


    Don, please. First, this is the opinion of one magistrate judge (he wasn't even a FISA judge). Second, he's not saying what you think he's saying. He's responding to a hypothetical where the President submits a program application (under Specter's proposed bill) and the FISA court rejects it. When asked what the president should do under those circumstance, he said the president should appeal the decision to the FISA Court of Review. When the hypothetical was pressed even further (by suggesting there was no time for an appeal), he suggested that the president could act unilaterally in an emergency, and the courts could sort it out later.

    No one is arguing with that. But the Bush administration is asserting that it has the power to disregard a law indefinitely, at the administration's discretion.

    In short, the present constitutional crisis is nothing at all like the hypothetical Kornblum was responding to.

    ReplyDelete
  33. The Washington Times article even follows that statement (about not turning power over to a statute with) with

    The judges, however, said Mr. Bush's choice to ignore established law regarding foreign intelligence gathering was made "at his own peril," because ultimately he will have to answer to Congress and the Supreme Court if the surveillance was found not to be in the best interests of national security

    Obivously, if the judges believed in the inherent unchecked authority of the President they would not be cautioning that he would be in danger of being rebuked by the Legislative and Judicial branches.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anonymous1:04 PM

    bart said...

    It is undisputed and the courts have universally held that the President has the Article II power to direct and conduct warrantless intelligence gathering.

    The issue is whether FISA can limit or eliminate that power


    Courts have held the President has authority to gather intelligence abroad without warrant.

    Courts have not held that the President has plenary authoirty to wiretap Americans on American soil without a warrant.

    Not only does it not fall under the "Commander in Chief" title--he's commander in chief of the armed forces, not the civilians--but the people specifically enacted the Fourth Amendment to protect against just that, and enacted, through Congress, the FISA law.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Anonymous1:05 PM

    From Bart at 12:24PM:

    "It is undisputed and the courts have universally held that the President has the Article II power to direct and conduct warrantless intelligence gathering."

    A most bold and excellent assertion. Now, back it up with at least one actual ruling and we can treat it more seriously than just hot air.

    "The issue is whether FISA can limit or eliminate that power."

    An interesting viewpoint of the issue at hand. Not one most would agree with, granted, but still a viewpoint all the same.

    "AL and most of the folks here make a great deal out of the fact that the FISA judges did not opine to the Senate that the President was innocent of some crime. This wrongfully assumes that the President or anyone else accused of a crime is guilty until proven innocent."

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the President already admitted quite publicly that (a) this program does indeed fall under the provisions governed by FISA, and (b) no effort was made to obtain the warrants to conduct surveillance by this program from the FISA Court?

    I welcome ANY correction on these point, btw.

    I can and do agree to the Presumption of Innocence, but how then to hold the same when an actual admission of law-breaking (setting aside questions of the Constitutionality of the statute in question for a moment) has been made to the public by the Chief Executive himself? Do we presume 'temporary insanity' (a terrifying thought) or simply accept the Nixon argument?

    "To date, the accusers against Mr. Bush have presented no judicial precedent, dicta or testimony to indicate that the President's exercise of his Article II authority is somehow illegal."

    Unless I'm much mistaken, to date we haven't been faced with a President who has sought to make use of powers not specifically spelled out under Article II that could well infringe upon the rest of the Constitution or the US Code. Indeed, I don't believe the argument has even been made in Court anywhere or at any level that FISA is an unconstitutional infringement upon the President's powers as enumerated.

    I'm going to leave discussion of Mr. Lichtblau's motives and the Espionage Act aside for the moment and again pose the question to Bart:

    How can you, as a sworn Officer of the Court, accept and even excuse the admission of law-breaking by the highest office in the land? I'm honestly not able to wrap my head around that one.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Anonymous1:07 PM

    With all this back and forth - with all this discussion about what the judges said or did not say it amazes me that there are people out there that want the President of the United States (any President not just the current one) to have unlimited powers. The powers of a king. Absolute power. Because that is what this boils down to and to not recognize the slippery slop aspect of the argument is idiotic to say the least. All the Bush apologists here are really advocating for unchecked Executive power. They are willing to parse words and parse the law to any extent necessary to achieve the goal of absolute Executive power. It is truly amazing to me. I can not fathom it. Does the very prospect of that not frighten anyone?

    As for the Judges - Does anyone really and truly believe that a judge, any judge, believes that the Executive should have unchecked power? Wouldn't that, by definition, marginalize the judiciary to such an extent as to make them almost superfluous?

    It seems to me it is about "winning" to these people. Winning now and damn the future. The view is so myopic. We already have a Legislature that has abdicated their oversite and thus their representative responsibilities. Given that do we really want a Judiciary in the same vein? Think about this a moment folks. Think about what some are arguing for here. See the forest for the trees and ask yourself what you really want here. Do we really want to kill off our system of checks and balances that have served us well these past 200+ years? Because in the final analysis that is what some are advocating for with every twist of the knife.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Anonymous1:10 PM

    From anonymous at 12:44PM:

    "How many FISA judge experts is it going to take before you admit you are dead wrong on this issue?

    "That's now at least a half dozen that have told you that the Youngstown case does not mean what you keep claiming."

    Actually, I haven't seen one say anything of the sort. If anything, all the experts that have spoken on the issue make at least the tacit admission the President's authority is subject to review and limitation (as per 'Youngstown'). As yet, the Administration hasn't made a direct challenge against FISA; merely ignored the statute and let its proxies do the arguing in non-Court venues.

    Please provide quotes and citations backing up your assertion.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Zack said...

    I was just wondering, where are the other press accounts of this story? Why are there just two reporters with totally conflicting versions reporting it? Who else has reported this story?


    The actual testimony does not fit their preconception of Bush guilt, so they ignore it just like they are ignoring the couple dozen translations of captured Iraqi intelligence documents which describe Saddam's connections with terrorism in general and al Qaeda in particular.

    Both the WT and the NYT have axes to grind for and against Bush, which is why they are covering this.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Anonymous1:20 PM

    The Rocket knows all. He has no agenda, none whatsoever. Or not.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Anonymous1:24 PM

    From Bart at 1:16PM:

    "The actual testimony does not fit their preconception of Bush guilt, so they ignore it just like they are ignoring the couple dozen translations of captured Iraqi intelligence documents which describe Saddam's connections with terrorism in general and al Qaeda in particular."

    That's one viewpoint. Another would be that what was being argued was frankly arcane and the panelists declined to come out with a definitive answer one way or the other (as tends to happen with complex issues like this). "Former FISA Judges Argue Technical Points of Law But Decline to Endorse or Condemn NSA Program" doesn't make particularly juicy copy, does it?

    And wasn't it established that 'document dump' from a week or so back was largely rubbish that was already public knowledge? The only 'new' stuff there was an Iraqi intelligence service memo that bemoaned its lack of HUMIT assets and agents.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Anonymous1:26 PM

    ...it amazes me that there are people out there that want the President of the United States (any President not just the current one) to have unlimited powers.

    Not a single commentator in this blog, nor a single newspaper or magazine writer or columnist of even minor notoriety, nor any U.S. elected public official at any level of government, nor anyone in academia down to the elementary school level, nor any judge in the federal or state courts, or any other person who isn't in a mental institution, wants the the president of the United States to have "unlimited powers."

    Where did you come up with that loony notion?

    ReplyDelete
  42. Hume's Ghost said...

    AP reported: 'I am very wary of inherent authority'' claimed by presidents, testified U.S. Magistrate Judge Allan Kornblum. ''It sounds very much like King George.''

    I was a bit weary of the Washington Times article when I saw this.


    I would be very wary of cherry picked passages from testimony without the predicate questions and the rest of the judge's answer. AP, just like the NYT and most likely intentionally, gives us no context to judge this quote.

    ReplyDelete
  43. In another empirical factoid bolstering Greenwald's assertion that the Bushites will stop at nothing to advance their warped agenda, Norman Podhoretz suggests that recently released captive, Jill Carroll, is suffering from psychological trauma when she reports on the good treatment she received at the hands of her captors.

    These Bushites will stop at nothing to paint the insurgents, terrorists, etc. as animals, unworthy of every human considertaion. It should be noted that Carroll is simply carrying through on her desire to report on the human angle of both sides of this "war." She took extraordinary risks to get out the story that the MSM in general refused or were incapable of reporting. That insurgents or others fighting the US occupation could conceivably be exhibiting human motives is, of course, anathema to a US regime that hopes to portray its opponents--domestic and foreign--as subhuman.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Anonymous1:32 PM

    Mister President, tell it to the judge.

    I see absolutely no value (and in fact I see real harm) in requiring the president of the United States to get permission from some unelected, obscure judge before he can make battlefield-type decisions regarding the surveillance of our mortal enemies during wartime.

    I believe most of our congressmen and senators feel the same way and thus will vote (very soon) to ensure that the president can carry on his NSA program umimpeded by either meddling grandstanders in the Congress or by opponents of the war who are using this issue in an attempt to constrain the president from exercising his commander-in-chief responsibilities.

    ReplyDelete
  45. DonSurber said...

    Left out, the actual quote on which the Washington Times story is based (from Kornblum, who helped draft FISA):

    "If a court refuses a FISA application and there is not sufficient time for the president to go to the court of review, the president can under executive order act unilaterally, which he is doing now. I think that the president would be remiss exercising his constitutional authority by giving all of that power over to a statute."


    This has already been spun here as some sort of emergency Presidential power with does not apply absent the extreme circumstances of the hypothetical question which preceded this answer.

    However, there is no such thing as "emergency" presidential powers any more than the President's powers as CiC are limited to wartime.

    Either the President has the Article II power or he does not.

    Either FISA limits or eliminates the President's Article II power or it does not.

    If, as the Judge opines, the President my exercise his Article II power without a FISA warrant in an emergency, he can do it any other time as well.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Judge Stafford: "Everyone is bound by the law, but I do not believe, with all due respect, that even an act of Congress can limit the President's power under the Necessary and Proper Clause under the Constitution."

    Someone want to tell Stafford that the "Necessary and Proper" clause is in Article I?

    One could argue that there must (for prudential reasons) be an implicit "necessary and proper" codicil WRT the performance of the president's constitutionally authorised duties. In fact, seeing as the president's role is executive and administrative, rather than legislative, requiring continual action and performance, one might even go so far as to say that the president not only has the "necessary and proper" power to do her/his job but also the mandatory duty to do so, and that if (s)he ignores or shirks this duty, (s)he should be impeached. But that job is (amongst other things) to carry out the laws of the country as duly passed. If the president were to refuse to enforce the civil rights laws, (s)he should rightly be punished or removed.

    The crux of the matter here is whether the president may ignore the laws of the country in performing her/his duty. The obvious answer is no (see above). While FISA is still good law, the president must obey it (or be held responsible for breaking it). And until someone can show where in the Constitution the president is given unchecked authority to wiretap, FISA will survive. Congress writes the rules, the president must obey them and carry them out.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  47. Anonymous said...

    bart said...It is undisputed and the courts have universally held that the President has the Article II power to direct and conduct warrantless intelligence gathering. The issue is whether FISA can limit or eliminate that power

    Courts have held the President has authority to gather intelligence abroad without warrant.

    Courts have not held that the President has plenary authoirty to wiretap Americans on American soil without a warrant.


    This is an incorrect statement of the law. The courts have universally held that the President has the Article II power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States, whether they be American citizens or aliens. These courts further held that this power is an exception to the Fourth Amendment warrant requirement.

    ReplyDelete
  48. I applaud your positive move in the right direction. The next step is to actively encourage Democrats (and Republicans, too) to support Specter and work with him in drafting the bill. Biden said yesterday he would do that.

    I also didn't say I support Specter's bill -- only that I think Democrats will support it but the White House won't.

    To be perfectly honest, as long as they don't give the President immunity from future investigation and prosecution, I don't really care how FISA is amended. How could any rationale person care about that?

    The President has said over and over - people in this very thread are saying over and over - that the President's eavesdropping powers - even as applied to U.S. citizens on U.S. soil -- cannot be limited by Congress. If the President wants to eavesdrop in violation of FISA, he claims he has the power to do that and he will do it.

    Under these circumstances, it is unbelievable folly to pretend that it matters what FISA says. With respect, Jao, it strikes me as a little pitiful not to take heed of what the President is saying. He is spitting on this law and saying that it has no effect, and yet Congressmen are pretending that their laws still matter and spending all this energy and exerting all this angst struggling over the wording of a law that won't make the slightest difference.

    As long as we have a President who is telling you to your face that he cannot be restricted in any way by FISA, sitting around debating what FISA should say is an exercise in abject and really sad futility.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anonymous1:41 PM

    From anonymous:

    "I see absolutely no value (and in fact I see real harm) in requiring the president of the United States to get permission from some unelected, obscure judge before he can make battlefield-type decisions regarding the surveillance of our mortal enemies during wartime."

    Good. Something we agree on.

    Except (a) this program was reportedly on domestic, not foreign, targets and had unspecified parameters, and (b) we aren't at war.

    I've frankly lost count of the number of times both points have been asserted here. Exactly what about either point do you not comprehend or argue against?

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anonymous1:46 PM

    In light of Bart's quote:

    Judge Kornblum: I think--as a Magistrate Judge, not a District Judge, that a President would be remiss in exercising his Constitutional authority to say that, "I surrender all of my power to a statute," and, frankly, I doubt that Congress, in a statute, can take away the President's authority, not his inherent authority, but his necessary and proper authority.
    Can someone explain to me the difference between inherent authority and "necessary and proper" authority?

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous1:47 PM

    From Bart at 1:38PM:

    "This is an incorrect statement of the law. The courts have universally held that the President has the Article II power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States, whether they be American citizens or aliens. These courts further held that this power is an exception to the Fourth Amendment warrant requirement."

    Again, which Courts and when? Please provide at least one citation to show you're living in the same reality as the rest of us.

    ReplyDelete
  52. yankeependragon said...

    "It is undisputed and the courts have universally held that the President has the Article II power to direct and conduct warrantless intelligence gathering."

    A most bold and excellent assertion. Now, back it up with at least one actual ruling and we can treat it more seriously than just hot air.


    My friend, you are not new here and you have had the opportunity to read nearly a dozen posts of mine setting forth this precedent. However, for those here who are new, here goes one more time.

    See, e.g., United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1144 (1982); United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 890 (1977); United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3d Cir. 1974) (en banc), cert. denied, 419 U.S. 881 (1974); United States v. Brown, 484 F.2d 418 (5th Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 916 (1974). See also In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717, 742 (Foreign Intel. Surv. Ct. of Rev. 2002).

    Bart: "AL and most of the folks here make a great deal out of the fact that the FISA judges did not opine to the Senate that the President was innocent of some crime. This wrongfully assumes that the President or anyone else accused of a crime is guilty until proven innocent."

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the President already admitted quite publicly that (a) this program does indeed fall under the provisions governed by FISA, and (b) no effort was made to obtain the warrants to conduct surveillance by this program from the FISA Court?


    This is irrelevant if FISA does not constitutionally limit or eliminate the President's Article II power. That appears to be the prevailing sentiment among the testifying judges and not a single one of these judge's indicated otherwise.

    "To date, the accusers against Mr. Bush have presented no judicial precedent, dicta or testimony to indicate that the President's exercise of his Article II authority is somehow illegal."

    I'm going to leave discussion of Mr. Lichtblau's motives and the Espionage Act aside for the moment

    Good idea. His reporting is undefendable.

    How can you, as a sworn Officer of the Court, accept and even excuse the admission of law-breaking by the highest office in the land? I'm honestly not able to wrap my head around that one.

    An honest one cannot, although many did in the case of Mr. Clinton's perjuries.

    However, I repeat once again, the President is well within the Constitution to conduct intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the US and, to the best of our knowledge from everyone who is supposed to be aware of the NSA Program, that is exactly what Mr. Bush is doing.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous1:49 PM

    Anonymous said...
    Not a single commentator in this blog, nor a single newspaper or magazine writer or columnist of even minor notoriety, nor any U.S. elected public official at any level of government, nor anyone in academia down to the elementary school level, nor any judge in the federal or state courts, or any other person who isn't in a mental institution, wants the the president of the United States to have "unlimited powers."

    Where did you come up with that loony notion?
    1:26 PM


    No? I beg to differ. I agree that there are those out there that support BushCo that do not think they are advocating for unlimited Executive power but, in the end analysis, that is precisely what they are advocating. If you support BushCo then by definition you support his presidential unitary powers theory. It is what he is striving for. It is his goal. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain all the different ways in which he is attacking our established system of checks and balances. If a reasonably well educated person, that has truly been following all of his doings from the start, can not see it by now then they never will. Or rather perhaps they will one day when, if he is successful in his goal, his or his successor's tyranny reaches their doorstep.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Arne Langsetmo said...

    Judge Stafford: "Everyone is bound by the law, but I do not believe, with all due respect, that even an act of Congress can limit the President's power under the Necessary and Proper Clause under the Constitution."

    Someone want to tell Stafford that the "Necessary and Proper" clause is in Article I?


    Good catch! I was wondering what the hell the esteemed judge was talking about as well.

    My guess is that he is confusing Necessary and Proper with the term "plenary power." Kris' memo gives a much better description of this distinction.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous2:03 PM

    From Bart at 1:49PM:

    "See, e.g., United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1144 (1982); United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 890 (1977); United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3d Cir. 1974) (en banc), cert. denied, 419 U.S. 881 (1974); United States v. Brown, 484 F.2d 418 (5th Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 916 (1974). See also In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717, 742 (Foreign Intel. Surv. Ct. of Rev. 2002)."

    Er, Bart, correct me if I'm wrong but don't all those cases (to a one) deal strictly with surveillance against foreign targets and don't directly address/challenge FISA or domestic intel gathering procedures?

    I welcome any correction here.

    You answer re: a sworn Officer of the Court excusing this mess:

    "An honest one cannot, although many did in the case of Mr. Clinton's perjuries."

    Thank you for your honesty. I believe however that it is one of the Canons of Bar (I'm uncertain of its exact title, but you get the idea) that an attorney must also 'be a zealous advocate' for their client. President Clinton's attorneys were precisely that, and ultimately I don't believe President Clinton was in actual violation of the US Code beyond perjury on a private matter (the laws of taste are another matter entirely).

    At the very least, you are honest in your opinions on this issue.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Anonymous2:07 PM

    This is as clear a statement as any that the president cannot simply do whatever he feels is necessary, regardless of what the law says.

    Excellent! Now demolish the next strawman.

    Tom Maguire

    ReplyDelete
  57. celo said...

    Can someone explain to me the difference between inherent authority and "necessary and proper" authority?


    We are getting into legal semantics here which have been confused by the courts and lawyers who use them.

    "Inherent power" means a specific power which is implied by the grant of a general power. For example, Article II makes the President the Commander in Chief of the military but does not expressly enumerate all the specific powers that grant of title assumes. Courts have held that warrantless intelligence gathering on foreign groups and their agents in the US is such a specific power inherent in the grant of the title CiC.

    You will have to ask the judges what they meant by "necessary and proper authority." My guess is that they meant "plenary power," which means absolute authority over a subject matter area which is not shared with the other two branches. For example, Congress has plenary power over enacting spending bills. Neither the President nor the Courts may enact spending bills.

    The question which we are debating is whether the President's Article II inherent power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering on foreign groups and their agents in the US is a plenary power which Congress may not limit with FISA or is it a shared power with Congress which Congress may regulate.

    The judges using the term "necessary and proper authority" appear to believe that this power is plenary. However, they were not clear and this is not a binding legal opinion.

    Indeed, they should not even be opining at all on this subject before a Senate committee considering a bill which would have them render a legal decision on this question.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Anonymous2:09 PM

    Bart said,"However, I repeat once again, the President is well within the Constitution to conduct intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the US and, to the best of our knowledge from everyone who is supposed to be aware of the NSA Program, that is exactly what Mr. Bush is doing."

    Well, there's the rub..."to the best of our knowledge" is no knowledge at all. We, the people, and our representatives in Congress, know virtually nothing of who has been wiretapped, under what circumstances, and to what ends. All we have are assurances without substance, a "just trust us" plea from an administration which--even if our Constitution was not written on the assumption that the government is NEVER to "just be trusted"--has demonstrated that it is incompetent, dishonest, and absolutely not to be trusted under any circumstances.

    That Bart or anyone can at this late date still feel, or counsel, trust in the good intentions, probity, competence, and self-restraint of this administration boggles the mind.

    ReplyDelete
  59. yankeependragon said...

    From Bart at 1:49PM:

    "See, e.g., United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1144 (1982); United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 890 (1977); United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3d Cir. 1974) (en banc), cert. denied, 419 U.S. 881 (1974); United States v. Brown, 484 F.2d 418 (5th Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 916 (1974). See also In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717, 742 (Foreign Intel. Surv. Ct. of Rev. 2002)."

    Er, Bart, correct me if I'm wrong but don't all those cases (to a one) deal strictly with surveillance against foreign targets and don't directly address/challenge FISA or domestic intel gathering procedures?


    They all hold what I posted that they held: The President has the Article II power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States and that the 4th Amendment makes an exception for this type of intelligence gathering.

    I did not say anything about FISA. Whether FISA may limit or eliminate this Article II power is a separate issue.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Anonymous2:20 PM

    I've been putting up some more video snips today of the FISA Surveillance Hearing-on CanOFun. Will look for those specific examples to add for video confirmation.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Getting these issues before a court, where the President has had little success selling his theories of exclusive executive power, and which he ultimately is afraid to defy, is absolutely critical.

    Jao - Originally, Specter said he was going to introduce legislation requiring the FISA court to rule on the legality and constitutionality of the warrantless NSA program. I favored THAT proposal. I want courts to rule on the legality of the President's conduct, and they will. But Specter's current legislation does NOT require that - it only requires the FISA court to oversee the program going forward - but I favor any proposal to submit the question of whether the President broke the law to judicial review.

    What I do not care about is whether the standards for government eavesdropping under FISA change, or what the Congressional or judicial oversight requirements are, because as long as George Bush is in office, they don't matter. He has said so himself, repeatedly.

    Finally, it's possible to see things differently than you see them without being driven by whatever venal and self-interested motives you - for whatever reasons - always feel compelled to attribute to me.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Anonymous2:40 PM

    From Bart at 2:13PM:

    "They all hold what I posted that they held: The President has the Article II power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States and that the 4th Amendment makes an exception for this type of intelligence gathering.

    "I did not say anything about FISA. Whether FISA may limit or eliminate this Article II power is a separate issue."

    I see where the confusion lies now, and belive you are indeed correct, basically affirming the President can initiate surveillance against such targets without needing to first get a warrant. Similarly FISA is not dealt with under any of these.

    The problem, and one I don't think you've actually addressed yet, is that we aren't talking about a clear-cut case here where American citizens are avowed members of Al Qaeda or any other organization or group; its rather anologous to claiming all Catholics (even non-practicing ones) are in fact agents of the Vatican. Similarly, given Al Qaeda is a network and not a formal organization, its not as if it has established and verifiable membership. Simply claiming someone talking on a phone in western Wisconsin, say, to another someone in Karachi who is known to be a graduate from a Masra that is believed to be a front for one of Al Qaeda's recruiting cells doesn't strike me as a terribly convincing argument for targeting the speaker in Wisconsin for surveillance.

    In fact, we aren't sure exactly what standards of evidence or probable cause are being applied to select domestic targets under this program. Even if (and this is a mighty big 'if') the program is very carefully targeted and its intentions good, the lack of verifiable and defendable standards should leave even the most zealous advocate nervous.

    What is known is that the President has admitted that (a) this program falls under the FISA framework and (b) the provisions of FISA have not been obeyed by the Administration. THAT is the real issue at hand, and the cases you cite don't address that issue and no one has argued otherwise.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Anonymous2:46 PM

    is the law in his circuit. In most of the circuits, the law is clear that the President has the authority to do warrantless surveillance if it is to collect foreign intelligence and it is targeting foreign powers or agents. If the facts support that, then the district judge could make that finding and admit the evidence, just as they did in Truong-Humphrey.

    No court has ever held that the President can engage in warrantless eavesdropping IN THE FACE OF A STATUTE MAKING IT A CRIMINAL OFFENSE.

    All of the cases the Judge is referring to which held that the President has authority to engage in warrantless surviellance - such as Truong-Humphrey - were PRIOR to the time FISA was enacted.

    Therefore, these cases don't stand for the proposition that the President has the right to violate FISA, and the Judge didn't say they do.

    Can't you Bush lovers keep up with even the most elementary parts of the story?

    ReplyDelete
  64. yankeependragon said...

    The problem, and one I don't think you've actually addressed yet, is that we aren't talking about a clear-cut case here where American citizens are avowed members of Al Qaeda or any other organization or group; its rather anologous to claiming all Catholics (even non-practicing ones) are in fact agents of the Vatican. Similarly, given Al Qaeda is a network and not a formal organization, its not as if it has established and verifiable membership. Simply claiming someone talking on a phone in western Wisconsin, say, to another someone in Karachi who is known to be a graduate from a Masra that is believed to be a front for one of Al Qaeda's recruiting cells doesn't strike me as a terribly convincing argument for targeting the speaker in Wisconsin for surveillance.

    According to the leaker and the WH, it appears that the NSA is monitoring international calls between the US and a foreign country where one end is a telephone number captured from al Qaeda. The common sense assumption is that one or both parties to such a call may either be al Qaeda or one of its agents. However, you don't have probable cause to know that is true until you listen in.

    In fact, we aren't sure exactly what standards of evidence or probable cause are being applied to select domestic targets under this program. Even if (and this is a mighty big 'if') the program is very carefully targeted and its intentions good, the lack of verifiable and defendable standards should leave even the most zealous advocate nervous.

    I'm sorry, but I would be nervous if the President failed to immediately start monitoring telephone calls using numbers captured from al Qaeda. The threat to the privacy of American citizens is minimal even without any additional safeguards at all. We are talking about a couple thousand numbers at most out of tens of millions in the US alone.

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  65. Ace said...

    Judge Kornblum: To be admissible, the evidence would have had to have been lawfully seized or lawfully obtained and the standard that the district judge would use is that, depending upon where this is, is the law in his circuit. In most of the circuits, the law is clear that the President has the authority to do warrantless surveillance if it is to collect foreign intelligence and it is targeting foreign powers or agents. If the facts support that, then the district judge could make that finding and admit the evidence, just as they did in Truong-Humphrey.


    That is a correct statement of the law. I just reread Truong and posted on it a couple days ago.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Anonymous3:01 PM

    Now was that post FISA?

    Yes.


    It's called "dicta," moron. Look it up. And the HOLDING of that decision is that FISA is constitutional.

    The court wasn't deciding whether a President has the right to engage in warrantless surveillance in the face of a statute prohibiting it. No court has ever said the President has the power to break the law. The case didn't overturn Youngstown. It was a throwaway line of dicta that doesn't even address the issue.

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  67. Anonymous3:02 PM

    As a reminder, neither Glenn, Liberal Anonymous or our commenters know the full scope of the NSA activities. True, reasonable, relevant legislation can only be accomplished with a full investigation.

    Til then, let's play dressup.

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  68. It should be noted that much of what is going on here seems like a blind person talking in the dark to him or herself. The darkness comes from the fact that no one, except the NSA and associated agnecies, know what it is that the NSA does in its so-called eavesdropping program.

    In an analysis of the technology involved in this program and its associated programs, Wired magazine writes the following:

    Data mining can work. It helps Visa keep the costs of fraud down, just as it helps Amazon alert me to books I might want to buy and Google show me advertising I'm more likely to be interested in. But these are all instances where the cost of false positives is low (a phone call from a Visa operator or an uninteresting ad) in systems that have value even if there is a high number of false negatives.

    Finding terrorism plots is not a problem that lends itself to data mining. It's a needle-in-a-haystack problem, and throwing more hay on the pile doesn't make that problem any easier. We'd be far better off putting people in charge of investigating potential plots and letting them direct the computers, instead of putting the computers in charge and letting them decide who should be investigated.
    [my emphasis]

    ReplyDelete
  69. Anonymous3:13 PM

    I agree that there are those out there that support BushCo that do not think they are advocating for unlimited Executive power but, in the end analysis, that is precisely what they are advocating.

    I get it. We "BushCo Supporters" really don't know how we feel - we must be mind-numbed robots. Glad we have the "educated" like you to set us straight.

    If you support BushCo then by definition you support his presidential unitary powers theory. It is what he is striving for.

    Wow. That's pretty good. You not only know exactly how we THINK we feel, you know exactly what the president's feelings are. Dionne Warwick's got nothing on you.

    I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain all the different ways in which he is attacking our established system of checks and balances.

    Kind of hard to do when you can't think of a single example. Just give me one example of a right you had during the Clinton administration, that you don't have now.

    If a reasonably well educated person, that has truly been following all of his doings from the start, can not see it by now then they never will.

    2 Bachelor's degrees here, and I follow the news on a daily basis. These "doings" are not happening. Just because you fellow echo-chamber compatriots make the same complaints, it doesn't make them true.

    TV (Harry)

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  70. PS Speaking of legislative responsibilities: It seems that few if anyone disagrees with Congress' right to oversee and fund these programs. Considering the implications in the Wired article I just alluded to, it seems that Congress should at least question whether the taxpayer is funding a boondoggle that doesn't do what its managers say it does.

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  71. Anonymous3:19 PM

    True, reasonable, relevant legislation can only be accomplished with a full investigation.

    Are you suggesting that the NSA should publicly reveal how it conducts its counter-espionage and counter-terrorism operations against our mortal enemies?

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  72. As the tech reporters at Defense Tech have suggested, if the terrorists are so stupid that they don't already know what tricks the NSA is using, then there's even less we have to worry about than Bushco would have us think.

    As an isntance of what the NSA might be doing, see their links to a a two-part article on how these programs use the telecommunications companies to accomplish their ends.

    Given the fact that the terrorists probably know most of this, you have to ask the question, "who then is the object of this surveillance?" I know, that sounds like a rhetorical question, since it seems that one of the only answers to it is us.

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  73. Anonymous3:32 PM

    Yeah, because supporting the exercise of constitutional powers (which in this instance have been and are being reviewed by Congress) supports "unlimited" powers.

    If yóu don't believe in unlimited Presidential powers, then answer this - if the President decides that engaging in any of the following behavior is necessary and desirable to combat terrorism, what possible limits exist on his power?

    * Warrantless physical searches of Americans' homes

    * Detention on U.S. soil of Americans in prison without charging them with a crime

    * Use of torture to interrogate American citizens suspected of terrorism

    * The assassination of U.S. citizens on U.S. soil who the President decrees to be an "enemy combatant"

    * Cancellation of the 2008 election on the ground that national security will be harmed by such an election?

    By every theory cited by the Administration to justify breaking the law with eavesdropping on Americans, all of these measures would be within the President's power, even if Congress passed laws banning them. If you disagree, what limits would prevent him from doing these things?

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  74. the cynic librarian said...

    In an analysis of the technology involved in this program and its associated programs, Wired magazine writes the following:

    Data mining can work. It helps Visa keep the costs of fraud down, just as it helps Amazon alert me to books I might want to buy and Google show me advertising I'm more likely to be interested in. But these are all instances where the cost of false positives is low (a phone call from a Visa operator or an uninteresting ad) in systems that have value even if there is a high number of false negatives.

    Finding terrorism plots is not a problem that lends itself to data mining. It's a needle-in-a-haystack problem, and throwing more hay on the pile doesn't make that problem any easier. We'd be far better off putting people in charge of investigating potential plots and letting them direct the computers, instead of putting the computers in charge and letting them decide who should be investigated.


    Wired might want to speak with the officers involved in the Able Danger program who identified both the Atta 9/11 cell and the attack on the Cole beforehand by mining publicly available data.

    According to the WP, the NSA Program identifies an average of ten targets in the US each year where follow up investigation has found probable cause to get FISA warrants for criminal investigations.

    Sounds like Wired is disconnected on this issue.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Bart: The NYTimes has reported, based on info from FBI sources, that no tangible suspects have been identified and found potentially liable for terrorist acts via the NSA program(s).

    ReplyDelete
  76. Anonymous3:40 PM

    I read Powerline's analysis and found it maddening. Thank you for calling them to task.

    But even then, am I missing something?

    The issue (and the lede of the Washington Times piece) is what the FIVE FORMER FISA JUDGES said (or didn't say).

    Judge Kornblum's testimony (the only judge quoted in the Washington Times) may have some relevance, but HE'S NOT ONE OF THE FIVE FORMER FISA JUDGES.

    Am I correct in this? They were Baker, Brotman, Keenan, Stafford, and (by letter) Robertson. Not Kornblum.

    So can we start with the premise that the Washington Times wrote an article about what the "former FISA judges said", and the only quote came from a magistrate judge who never served on the FISA Court?

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  77. Anonymous3:44 PM

    Um, there have been no "theories" cited.

    That is your first lie.


    "Ace's" participation here is starting to make sense. He's a moron who knows nothing about the eavesdropping scandal.

    Ever heard of the Yoo Memorandum and the theory of executive power it sets forth - which is the official position of the Executive branch and the theory cited by the Administration in every political controversy from Padilla to torture to the NSA? Here is a part of what it says:

    In both the War Powers Resolution and the Joint Resolution, Congress has recognized the President's authority to use force in circumstances such as those created by the September 11 incidents. Neither statute, however, can place any limits on the President's determinations as to any terrorist threat, the amount of military force to be used in response, or the method, timing, and nature of the response. These decisions, under our Constitution, are for the President alone to make.

    That's a theory, idiot. A highly controversial and radical one. Now that you know it exists, why don't you go and answer Elisa's question - what possible limits can be placed on the President's power to do any of the things she asked you about? Are those things legallly within the President's power?

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  78. Anonymous3:44 PM

    if the terrorists are so stupid that they don't already know what tricks the NSA is using, then there's even less we have to worry about than Bushco would have us think.

    The terrorists may indeed know that we are listening, but they don't know enough of the technical details to completely evade or impede our efforts. This necessarily disrupts their command-and-control capabilities, which increases our security. Furthermore, if our net is wide enough, we will (now and then) be able to jump one step ahead and intercept communications that they calculate are beyond our reach.

    These efforts will remain fruitful unless war opponents succeed in constraining the CINC’s ability to conduct these operations, an eventuality looking increasingly unlikely with each passing day.

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  79. Anonymous3:45 PM

    And GEN Hayden flatly said this wasn't true.

    So who do you believe?


    I believe The General, of course. The Military never lies about anything. Just like the Commander-in-Chief.

    Salute El Presidentde! Viva Bush!!!

    No need to do an investigation. The General Has Spoken!

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  80. Ace: Ummm... let's see, the choice here is between a life-time bureaucrat trying to save his job and his favorite boondoggle versus FBI agents who have to actually track down the dead-ends this boondoggle provides... tough choice. Perhaps it's even a false dilemma.

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  81. anon: How do you know? Since you seem to believe that the terrorists don't know and that the program(s) are secret, then you're merely pissing in the dark like everyone else. But, I have suggested that the Wired article and the Defense Tech links give us a pretty good idea of what's happening. So, if all these poeple can figure it out, why not some terrorist with an MS in software engineering?

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  82. It's interesting that with the huge nothing that we know about about this NSA program and its successes or failures, there is one source of information that no one in Congress seems to want to interrogate: the whistleblower who served (among others) as the NYTimes' source for their story on this program.

    Granted, he has not been able to divulge everything he knows because he is prohibited by law from speaking in public. What he has said, beyond the information provided in the NYTimes article, is that the NSA has broken several laws with regard to domestic surveillance. My questions is why Specter hasn't called this guy in to face questions.

    Since Specter et al. acknowledge that they're pissing in the dark as to the specifics of the NSA program(s), why not call in this guy who has intimate knowledge of the program(s)? Perhaps some of you lawyer types can enlighten me about what law would keep this guy from appearing before Congress in a closed session and divulging what he does know per illegal activities.

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  83. Anonymous4:13 PM

    ken ashford,

    Allan Kornblum is the legal advisor for the FISA Court.
    He is one of the foremost experts
    on FISA.

    He's not Judge Judy.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Anonymous4:14 PM

    How do you know? Since you seem to believe that the terrorists don't know and that the program(s) are secret...

    I assume the terrorists are aware we are listening, but I am quite sure they are not aware of the scope, extent, or technical means we employ to listen. This means that if they are to remain secure they must avoid all means of electronic communication. This necessarily constrains and impedes their activities, which I am sure even you'll agree is an unqualified good thing.

    The programs are definitely secret, but they are less secret than they used to be, thanks to the NY Times. I hope (along with Bart and others), that the Times is someday held accountable for this action and is punished according to law.

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  85. ace: I'm sure you can see the difference between generality and hard fact. The life-time buraeucrat employs generality and obfuscation and refuses to provide concrete examples of where and when his boondoggle stopped or trapped terrorists. The FBI agents provide hard fact that each lead provided by the NSA led to dead-ends. I don't know about you, but I'll take hard-nosed fact over generalities and govt. jingoism spoken in obvious self-interest every time.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Anonymous4:30 PM

    glenn greenwald said...

    To be perfectly honest, as long as they don't give the President immunity from future investigation and prosecution, I don't really care how FISA is amended. How could any rationale person care about that?

    Wow.
    Do you really believe it is irrelevant if we shred the constitution as long as GW somehow is punished?

    I am misinterpreting this statement? Are you assuming Bush will be president forever?

    jao,
    I am just going to cut and paste because any attempt to rewrite this would only diminish its power. I am only going to make one change in the hope I can still get a job with the WP.

    I'm afraid that does sums up your position rather neatly. It is a position that belies your symbiotic relationship with Bush and Congress -- the more outrageous things they do, the more that enables you to write outraged blog articles and such.

    Unfortunately, despite such petulant and defeatist rhetoric, the substantive laws passed by Congress actually do matter. Getting these issues before a court, where the President has had little success selling his theories of exclusive executive power, and which he ultimately is afraid to defy, is absolutely critical.

    But when your grandchildren ask, "Where were you when {Specter}, DeWine and Cheney gutted FISA and cut out the courts?" you can say, "I really didn't care, but in not caring I was very righteous. Read my book and see for yourself."


    Damn well said.
    -----
    Hospitals overflow
    with singers, embittered and pissed.
    Dead-ringers for men whose whereabouts should not be known
    or be missed.

    No failed revolts,
    no plot from the inside
    could contend with the prospect or trend towards being discovered before our time.
With upwards of thirty songs
    all about women and children
    whose lives will come second to mine.
    --
    Destroyer

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  87. anon said: ... but I am quite sure they are not aware of the scope, extent, or technical means we employ to listen.

    How can you be so cock-sure of anything in this mess? If there's one thing that's obvious, it's that nothing is as it appears. As I noted, if our guys (at Defense Tech and Wired) can figure out the general framework of these programs, so can a terrorist with a Master's degree (or higher) in electronic or software engineering.

    But, again, this is all pissing in the dark--the guvment is asking us to trust IT. Only fools trust a bureaucrat and his/her ardor for their pet projects.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous4:33 PM

    From Ace at 3:38PM:

    "Secondly you have no evidence what so ever the law was "broken" "

    My left eye, literally, started twitching when I read this.

    Can Ace please explain how the President pubically admitting that this program (a) legally falls under FISA but (b) there was no application for warrants for the surveillance done as required by the statute in question DOES NOT CONSTITUTE EVIDENCE THAT THE ADMINISTRATION BROKE THE LAW?

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  89. Anonymous4:34 PM

    However, I repeat once again, the President is well within the Constitution to conduct intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the US and, to the best of our knowledge from everyone who is supposed to be aware of the NSA Program, that is exactly what Mr. Bush is doing.

    This is so disingenuous it is probably not worth arguing with, but given that this canard has been widely disseminated by GOP-ers let's try.

    a) the executive is not only within its rights to conduct intelligence gathering against foreigners and their agents in the US, it is their obligation. This doesn't imply they can do it W/O warrants.

    b) FISA permits (50, § 1820) warrantless surveillance of "foreign powers" for up to 1 year. Note only "foreign powers", agents of them are not included. Also there must be "no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party".

    c) Excluding a 45 day period immediately after the declaration of war, everything else requires a WARRANT.

    Is this too complicated for GOP-ers out there to comprehend?

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  90. I stand corrected. The NYDaily News broke the story that NSA leads led nowhere:

    Taps found clues, not Al Qaeda, FBI chief says

    WASHINGTON - The National Security Agency's secret domestic spying hasn't nabbed any Al Qaeda agents in the U.S. since the Sept. 11 attacks, FBI Director Robert Mueller told Congress yesterday.

    Mueller told the Senate Intelligence Committee that his agents get "a number of leads from the NSA," but he made it clear Osama Bin Laden's henchmen weren't at the end of the trail.

    "I can say leads from that program have been valuable in identifying would-be terrorists in the United States, individuals who were providing material support to terrorists," Mueller testified.

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  91. Anonymous4:40 PM

    (first note)

    I agree with Glen, all this is pointless as long as shrubies keep claiming basically unlimited powers. Why bother? That's why I think courts need to proclaim on limits of presidential powers. And not any two bit district level court. The Supreme Court itself.

    (second note)

    If GOP-ers out there think either Specter or DeWine will get Bush off the hook, they are wrong, the Constitution explicitly prohibits passing ex post facto laws. Bush broke the law as it existed at the time of breaking and nothing Specter/DeWine does can change that. Bush is toast, legally speaking, unless some court says that FISA is unconstitutional.

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  92. ace said: You are ignoring facts because they don't fit your worldview.

    Who's ignoring facts when you have the evidence, provided by an FBI official, that the NSA program simply hasn't panned out? Talk about wanting to believe what you want to... and for what? An agenda of jingoistic bureaucrats who think that surveilling their own countrymen serves a greater purpose.

    On Hayden: I know these guys. I've worked with them. When they leave their cushy bureaucratic jobs in the Pentagon or elsewhere, they're hired for six-figure salaries at defense contractors. Don't tell me they have no self-interest in seeing their favorite projects well-funded and running.

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  93. the cynic librarian said...

    Bart: The NYTimes has reported, based on info from FBI sources, that no tangible suspects have been identified and found potentially liable for terrorist acts via the NSA program(s).


    We have no idea who the NYT's unnamed source or sources were for that story.

    Also, given the bias with which the NYT blew the cover for the NSA Program, its stated fear of being prosecuted for that story, its blatant misrepresentations of the testimony given to Congress and its retracted stories concerning Abu Ghraib and Katrina, I don't trust the NYT as far as I can spit to report the facts of this case accurately.

    I'll stick with the WP, which is hardly a Bush newspaper.

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  94. Anonymous5:00 PM

    Bart said:

    "like they are ignoring the couple dozen translations of captured Iraqi intelligence documents which describe Saddam's connections with terrorism in general and al Qaeda in particular."

    Do you have a link or a copy of these so-called documents proving Sadam's links to terrorism and Al Qaida? I don't think you do, because if they existed the Bush admin would be shouting it from the rooftops proclaiming that they had in fact been right all along. For a man who's poll numbers are lower than a snakes belly in a rut in a dirt road information like that would seem to be particularly helpful.

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  95. jao said: But Tice insists he never has told anything classified to anyone. If the Intelligence committees actually investigated, they probably would seek to interview him in secret to ascertain if there is anything there.

    Tice has not divulged anything secret because he fears arrest and imprisonment. He has, however, said that he knows that the NSA broke specific laws in its surveillance program.

    According to news reports:

    Russell “Russ” Tice, a former employee of the National Security Agency (NSA) who specialized in “special access programs,” has admitted to ABC News that he was one of the sources the New York Times used in its December 2005 investigstion into the NSA’s spy activity against Americans.

    He alleges that some of NSA’s secret operations were run in violation of the law. He has agreed to testify before Congress about the legality of intelligence programs run by both the Department of Defense and the National Security Agency that they say are an effort to monitor the activities of terrorists.
    [my emphasis]

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  96. Anonymous5:03 PM

    I see absolutely no value (and in fact I see real harm) in requiring the president of the United States to get permission from some unelected, obscure judge before he can make battlefield-type decisions regarding the surveillance of our mortal enemies during wartime.

    I find this comment really hilarious. Bush (our "president" only if you use the term loosely) has absolutely no battlefield experience and neither do his top advisors, including his vice president and his Secretary of Defense.

    His decisions on matters of life and death to Americans, from his failure to respond to repeated warnings in the summer of 2001, including CIA briefings and warnings from his frustrated counter-terrorism expert, Richard Clarke - to his bored response to clear warnings about the damage Katrina might wreak - to his failure in Iraq to protect the people we were supposedly liberating (for example, posting guards at the Oil Ministry but not at museums, libraries, hospitals and schools) - I just find it mind-boggling that anyone still trusts this guy to protect us physically, let alone to defend our Constitution.

    The Clinton team DID prevent several terrorist attacks by taking warnings seriously: including plans to blow up the Holland Tunnel, the Lincoln Tunnel, the Space Needle in Seattle, the Boston airport, the L.A.X. airport, and several others. They never made much of a fuss about any of this at the time; they never made political hay of it; they were doing their job. All this without assuming extraordinary powers, limiting the civil rights of Americans, torturing Arab taxi cab drivers, or circumventing FISA.

    Why would you trust Bush with greater power than any president before him? He has been mishadling the power he has. He looks and acts as if he is drunk on power.

    I'm just sort of curious what about the guy after this five-year history inspires confidence in anyone - right or left. Look at how afraid he is to bring fresh blood and ideas into his White House - he doesn't seem to have the confidence in his own ability to weigh options - like a prince too immature to have assumed the powers of a king, he needs the guardian advisors he's used to, the ones who promised when he agreed to run for president that they'd get him through the hard parts.

    I have nothing against dyslexics, I just don't think a fellow who can't read well and can't think logically and has a short attention span and needs an earpiece to get through debates and press conferences should be president of the United States, let alone be granted "wartime powers" in a war with no end. Political philosophy aside, he's simply not competent. He looks to a science fiction writer for advice about global warning. It will take generations to undo the damage he has done to our economy, our world reputation, our environment.

    The history books will be so crystal clear about all this.

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  97. the cynic librarian said...

    I stand corrected. The NYDaily News broke the story that NSA leads led nowhere:

    Taps found clues, not Al Qaeda, FBI chief says

    WASHINGTON - The National Security Agency's secret domestic spying hasn't nabbed any Al Qaeda agents in the U.S. since the Sept. 11 attacks, FBI Director Robert Mueller told Congress yesterday.

    Mueller told the Senate Intelligence Committee that his agents get "a number of leads from the NSA," but he made it clear Osama Bin Laden's henchmen weren't at the end of the trail.

    "I can say leads from that program have been valuable in identifying would-be terrorists in the United States, individuals who were providing material support to terrorists," Mueller testified.


    Huh?

    Does anyone else see the disconnect between the statement of the reporter: "he made it clear Osama Bin Laden's henchmen weren't at the end of the trail" and the actual quote from the Director: "Mueller told the Senate Intelligence Committee that his agents get "a number of leads from the NSA..."I can say leads from that program have been valuable in identifying would-be terrorists in the United States, individuals who were providing material support to terrorists,"

    If "would be terrorists" (ie those who are caught before they commit terrorist acts) and their terrorist supporters are not al Qaeda "henchmen," that term has no meaning.

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  98. Anonymous5:13 PM

    agree with Glen, all this is pointless as long as shrubies keep claiming basically unlimited powers.

    What is a "basically" unlimited power? Is that something akin to a "jumbo shrimp"?

    ReplyDelete
  99. ace: now we're in Russ Tice - diagnosed bi-polar - territory.

    As far as I know--but perhaps you have better info--bi-polar syndrome has no relationship to whether a person can tell the difference between turth and fiction. You're aware, no doubt, that Pres. Lincoln probably suffered from a variety of bi-polar syndrome.

    Your argument, of course, exemplifies your ad hominem argument from start to finish.

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  100. Anonymous5:21 PM

    If "would be terrorists" (ie those who are caught before they commit terrorist acts) and their terrorist supporters are not al Qaeda "henchmen," that term has no meaning.

    There is another canard at work here. The NSA program is not promulgated only to uncover enemy agents, it is also effective (and perhaps most effective) at disrupting enemy command and control by preventing the enemy from using electronic means of communication. This alone makes the program worth the minimum price we pay in the diminution of our civil liberties, a price I calculate at no worse than having your bags searched at airports without the benefit of either a warrant or even probable cause.

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  101. At a certain point, the constitution only means what a majority of Supreme Court justices want it to mean.

    "Necessary and Proper" is exactly such a key phrase. What is necessary? Can something be necessary and yet improper?

    How could any president ever demonstrate that warrantless wiretapping of Americans was necessary to the security of the US? That would involve proving it averted attacks. Like proving bigfoot doesn't exist. Hard to show the attacks that didn't happen because of the surveilance, especially if the surveilance itself meant terrorists were discouraged from even trying anything.

    However, not all meaning is fluid and while the constitution cannot ever be an ironclad document subject to only 1 interpretation (or else no one could claim the 2nd ammendment somehow translates into a general right to bear arms, against the clear face of the text which goes out of its way to point out "well regulated militia") there are meanings which are clearly invalid.

    "Necessary and Proper" alone could be stretched (implausibly) into saying the President can do anything in the name of national security at his sole discretion of what is needed, but when you have a subsequent amendment, in this case the 4th, denying the government the right to warrantless surveilance, you know clearly this is a wall. The people spoke: Necessary and Proper, yes, but warrantless spying: NO. NEVER.

    So to the Bush defenders I ask: What if Bush decides that gun ownership is a threat to national security and the government now has the right to arbitrarily strip citizens of their firearms. Will you be first in line at the police station to turn your guns in?

    If you think it's absurd that Bush might ever do that, what if President Feingold did it?

    After all, you are arguing that the Article II trumps Amendment 4. If it trumps 1 amendment, it trumps them all. Perhaps slavery is necessary and proper for security too!

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  102. Anonymous5:35 PM

    From Ace at 4:39PM:

    "Bush Derangement Syndrome symptom number 46."

    No such thing, save in the minds of those no longer willing or able to think independently of WH talking points.

    And the question at hand, just to be clear, isn't how many FISA warrants have been granted since 2001.

    The question is whether or not the President is indeed bound to obey the provisions of FISA when conducting surveillance on domestic targets. There are side-issues of whether it is some kind of infringement on the President's Constitutional authority or not, but the underlying issue remains the more fundamental question.

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  103. I don't give a rat's ass about the efficacy of the program. Whether it catches Osama himself, or Jimmy Hoffa's killers.

    It's fucking illegal. A plain text reading of the statute and constitution shows that. Yes, some trumped up specialized readings show it could be legal, but where there are two interpretations, occam's razor and common sense says pick the plain one.

    Say the phrase:
    "I never said he stole the money"
    but emphasize a different word, each time you say it. Notice how the meaning of the phrase changes.

    "I never said he stole the money" (someone said it)

    "I never said he stole the money" (he acquired it legally)

    etc etc.

    But at the end of the day, no reading or interpretation of that phrase can be constued to mean "the loch ness monster likes poetry at sunset" which about the level of convolution Bush apologists are making to stretch the applicable laws and constitutional passages into some semblance of NSA wiretap legality.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Anonymous5:47 PM

    Elisa said...@ 3:32 PM

    Don't bother Elisa. You could could correctly bring up the big picture issues, screaming from the top of your lungs until you were blue in the face, and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to them. Ace and his Anon friend are precisely the type of folks I was referring to. Which is why, upon reading my initial post, they think to themselves "hey! he is talking about me!" They know themselves. They know I was referring to them even though I have no idea who they are and have never met them. They proclaim their allegiance to Bush and ideology, regardless of the truth, every time they type a post.

    The bottom line is that they refuse to see the bigger picture here. They can't see the forest because they are too busy arguing about every tree. They don't want to hear about the issues you brought up (issues I made a conscious decision not to spell out) because they want to "win" this battle (whatever the battle of the day happens to be).

    In their efforts at never acknowledging anything beyond this particular "fight" they show that their beliefs and arguments lack true consideration in regards to what is best for the country in the long run.

    BushCo loyalists (or perhaps I should say Royalists) will ridicule, parse, obfuscate, and even outright lie if they think the case calls for it and all in order to "win" a perceived battle for their "side." That is all they truly care about. They never stop to consider that if they continue to "win" each of these "battles" that we will ultimately end up with a King instead of a President. Or maybe they do realize this and that is the end result they want. They seem to be claiming that that is not their wont but their comments contradict this.

    In short don't bother trying to help them see - they don't want to.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous5:48 PM

    Well, AL, this is an interesting post with an amazing discussion accompanying it. I reference the following:

    The judges, however, said Mr. Bush's choice to ignore established law regarding foreign intelligence gathering was made "at his own peril,".....

    When I read the: "At his peril" portion of Baker's testimony I come away with a different take. I realize that many assume the judge was referencing "peril" in the context of impeachment or other punitive proceedings. I'm not so sure that was his point. Afterall, there was Judge Robertson's resignation from the FISA court the day after the NSA story broke.

    Below I will quote directly from the old standard Black's Law Dictionary for the benefit of that acerbic wit and great intellectual Anonymous poster among us with two (2) Bachelor's degrees.

    Black's: "Fruit-of-the-poisoneous-tree doctine. In criminal procedure, the rule that evidence derived from an illegal search, arrest, or interrogation is inadmissible because the evidence (the "fruit") was tainted by the illegality (the "poisoneous true"); under this doctrine, for example, a murder weapon is inadmissible if the map showing its location and used to find it was seized during an illegal search."

    Perhaps, the "peril" referenced in the testimony before Specter's committee was a reference to the perilous position the government would find itself in if say, the Supremes ruled that the warrently surveillance program was unconstitutional. It would then follow that all evidence gleaned using warrantless surveillance would be inadmissible against those charged with crimes based upon the illegally obtained evidence. (Et viola! Open wide the jail house doors.)

    Now we have seen over the past few weeks and months how wonderfully incompetent and inept DOJ has been in cases like Moussawi, Hamdan, Padillo, etc. To say that a majority of the Court expressed skeptism this past week during the Hamdan hearing, is an understatement. Might they also view with equal skeptism (Scalia, Scalito, and Thomas notwithingstanding) a scheme that rest on the willful and acknowledged violation of statute (FISA) based on an untested Unitary Executive Theory?

    Peril or Risk?

    And on a wholly unrelated matter:

    Bart, dear Bart of the LSAT study guides said:

    Both the WT and the NYT have axes to grind for and against Bush, which is why they are covering this. interests of national security.

    Would that "WT" be the Washington Times?

    Let's face it Bart, Bush is simply a victim in the War against Christians. That war is similar in style and rhetorical flavor to the WAAAAAR on Terraaaa.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Anonymous5:49 PM

    Boy, the arguments just get sillier and sillier with time.

    If Bush wished to claim that FISA is an unconstitutional check on his powers, then he would immediately have filed a petition with the courts to overturn it. The fact that he hasn't is prima facie evidence that, like all the other Presidents who have been elected since the law was created, it is believed to be the law of the land. Indeed, when questioned on this matter, the Attorney General admitted that the Executive not only has used the FISA law, but sought to have Congress alter the law rather than attempt to overturn it, further proof of my contention.

    However, this is really a sideshow to the real question, which is the fact that Bush did not uphold the law, he attempted to end run around it by concealing the program from the FISA court despite later claims that the nature of the program fit under FISA law, by the very description of the program by the Attorney General under Congressional testimony.

    Arguments about Truong are a red herring - that case involved a person who was NOT a US citizen, therefore it does not apply to the question of surveillance without warrants on US citizens. The only way to clarify the law would be to prosecute a US citizen on the basis of this evidence to determine it's legality. That's not happening, either.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Anonymous6:00 PM

    I don't give a rat's ass about the efficacy of the program. Whether it catches Osama himself...

    Well, this is why no one pays attention to you, represents you in Congress, or is willing to advance your agenda.

    You are among only a small fringe group of leftist self-haters in this regard. There are many adults posting in this blog who have grave reservations regarding the NSA program, but do so out of good faith, i.e., they are willing to admit that the program may be effective, but their concerns regarding civil liberties compel them to advocate that the program be overseen by federal judges in one forum or another. The do care passionately whether or not Osama bin Laden is apprehended and brought to justice, and do wish to prevent an attack on this nation that could result in the mass murder of our fellow citizens. Among those individuals and those who support the president a constructive debate can occur. With individuals such as yourself, who (most probably) wish to see the United States defeated in this war, constructive debate is impossible.

    No wonder you’re so angry. Being alone, isolated, disrespected and disregarded must engender deep feelings of self-loathing.

    I feel sorry for you.

    ReplyDelete
  108. ace: Tice disputes that diagnosis. I doubt that a paranoid psychotic is as fully functioning as Tice seems to be. Granted, this is a disuputed question, but I imagine that the information he provided for the book, the Inside the Puzzle Palace, would be receiving more rebuttal than it is if he were simply spouting paranoid delusions. On the other hand, what else would you expect the government to do when their survival is threatened by a whistle-blower?

    Another point you make: Is believing in anonymous sources--vetted by seasoned reporters--ad hominem? You have a strange definition of ad hominem. Again, you can attack the messenger, but without fully dealing with the message you're simply adding a new, dishonest, twist to ad hominem.

    BTW those cases you cite have yet to go to trial, so we'll have to see how real the evidence is about whether the NSA is right even with regard to the NSA uncovering the support network for al-Qaeda in the US.

    As far as the efficacy of the NSA in general, there's always the question why they did not uncover the plot to attack on 911 in the first place. Their track record using all this secret technology is moderate at best. Where were they when Pakistan and India almost came to nuclear war, catching the administration by surprise?

    The current NSA program's efficacy has indeed brought into question by the FBI:

    F.B.I. officials repeatedly complained to the spy agency that the unfiltered information was swamping investigators. The spy agency was collecting much of the data by eavesdropping on some Americans' international communications and conducting computer searches of phone and Internet traffic. Some F.B.I. officials and prosecutors also thought the checks, which sometimes involved interviews by agents, were pointless intrusions on Americans' privacy.

    As the bureau was running down those leads, its director, Robert S. Mueller III, raised concerns about the legal rationale for a program of eavesdropping without warrants, one government official said. Mr. Mueller asked senior administration officials about "whether the program had a proper legal foundation," but deferred to Justice Department legal opinions, the official said.

    President Bush has characterized the eavesdropping program as a "vital tool" against terrorism; Vice President Dick Cheney has said it has saved "thousands of lives."

    But the results of the program look very different to some officials charged with tracking terrorism in the United States. More than a dozen current and former law enforcement and counterterrorism officials, including some in the small circle who knew of the secret program and how it played out at the F.B.I., said the torrent of tips led them to few potential terrorists inside the country they did not know of from other sources and diverted agents from counterterrorism work they viewed as more productive.

    "We'd chase a number, find it's a schoolteacher with no indication they've ever been involved in international terrorism - case closed," said one former F.B.I. official, who was aware of the program and the data it generated for the bureau. "After you get a thousand numbers and not one is turning up anything, you get some frustration."


    This quote should also answer Bart's questions.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anonymous6:04 PM

    Hi everyone. Haven't read the lead post or comments yet, but just had to print the story below, because it shows how completely corrupt Scalia is, resorting to lies and cover-ups when caught in a moment that expresses his true, arrogant nature.

    Photographer: Herald got it right
    By Marie Szaniszlo
    Thursday, March 30, 2006 - Updated: 09:39 AM EST

    Amid a growing national controversy about the gesture U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia made Sunday at the Cathedral of the Holy Cross, the freelance photographer who captured the moment has come forward with the picture.

    (Picture of Scalia’s flick-off)

    “It’s inaccurate and deceptive of him to say there was no vulgarity in the moment,” said Peter Smith, the Boston University assistant photojournalism professor who made the shot.

    Despite Scalia’s insistence that the Sicilian gesture was not offensive and had been incorrectly characterized by the Herald as obscene, the photographer said the newspaper “got the story right.”

    Smith said the jurist “immediately knew he’d made a mistake, and said, ‘You’re not going to print that, are you?’ ”

    Scalia’s office yesterday referred questions regarding the flap to Supreme Court spokeswoman Kathy Arberg, who said a letter Scalia sent Tuesday to the Herald defending his gesture at the cathedral “speaks for itself.”

    “He has no further comment,” Arberg said.

    Smith was working as a freelance photographer for the Boston archdiocese’s weekly newspaper at a special Mass for lawyers Sunday when a Herald reporter asked the justice how he responds to critics who might question his impartiality as a judge given his public worship.

    “The judge paused for a second, then looked directly into my lens and said, ‘To my critics, I say, ‘Vaffanculo,’ ” punctuating the comment by flicking his right hand out from under his chin, Smith said.

    The Italian phrase means “(expletive) you.”


    Yesterday, Herald reporter Laurel J. Sweet agreed with Smith’s account, but said she did not hear Scalia utter the obscenity.

    In his letter, Scalia denied his gesture was obscene and claimed he explained its meaning to Sweet, a point both she and Smith dispute.

    Scalia went on to cite Luigi Barzini’s book, “The Italians,” which describes a seemingly different gesture - “the extended fingers of one hand moving slowly back and forth under the raised chin” - and its meaning - “ ‘I couldn’t care less.


    Is this how he twists facts, and twists the Constitution, to get to his inhumane SC decisions? Our Constitution is not an inhumane document, which is what infuriates me.

    The lies. The cover-ups. The inhumanity. The accusations against others rather than accepting blame for their own actions. They are all so adept at that, aren't they?

    He is a DISGRACE, and should be removed from the Court, before he helps trash. our whole cherished system of government. He's a one man terror squad.

    Others who are as outraged by this arrogant, disdainful, dangerous man as I am should go to Huffington Post and to the article referenced there, to read more about this controversy.

    Scalia's public behaviour in the last few weeks is very illuminative. It shines a light into his soul, except the light comes up empty.

    Meanwhile, a good friend of mine who is a Zionist just called to tell me there's a rumor sweeping Wall Street, and I think he said it came over the Dow Jones wire, that Iran had "started war games" and we were preparing to "retaliate."

    Did anyone hear anything about that?

    ReplyDelete
  110. Anonymous6:10 PM

    anonymous writes:

    Allan Kornblum is the legal advisor for the FISA Court.
    He is one of the foremost experts
    on FISA.

    He's not Judge Judy.


    Well, I don't know what that means -- "legal advisor for the FISA Court". Courts have judges and clerks -- what's a "legal advisor"?

    But even granting everything you say, my point wasn't to question Judge Kornblum's espertise.

    My point was that the Washington Times presented him as one of the five former FISA judges, and he clearly is not.

    Therefore, right out of the box (before we even get to AL's analysis), the Washington Times article is misleading.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Dan: I agree that it's illegal. I see the fact that it's largely ineffective as a way to shut it down. Since Congress seems incapable of seeing that it's against the law, maybe they'll lsiten to the fact that the NSA's pissing tax dollars down a rat hole. I know most everyday people do not have the time nor inclination to listen to the arcane permutations of constituional theory. They do have an ear for waste and fraud and their well-earned dollars paying for $10,000 toilet seats. You could say that the NSA program is a multi-billion dollar version of Microsoft Access!

    ReplyDelete
  112. Anonymous6:13 PM

    Admin. Spends $1.62B On PR, Ads, "Bush Admin.'s Propaganda Effort Is Unprecedented"...
    Insight Magazine | March 29, 2006 at 11:00 PM

    The Bush administration, amid record budget deficits, has been spending huge amounts on advertising and public relations contracts to counter a hostile media environment.

    The administration spent $1.62 billion on advertising and public relations contracts over two and a half years. Most of the money was spent by the Defense Department amid its efforts to recruit soldiers for the war in Afghanistan and Iraq.


    One and a half BILLION dollars to plant disinformation, mostly. Read the whole article on Huffington Post.

    Those who tell the truth and act morally don't have to spend one cent to spread disinformation. Democrats say they want to eliminate tax cuts, but don't say a peep that most of the money paid in taxes is completely wasted, going into the pockets of cronies, starting and fighting lunatic wars, and spreading disinformation.

    Wonder how many Katrina victims could have been helped with that 1.62 billion wasted on lies?

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous6:44 PM

    OK. This story is a must read. Please go to Huffington Post and read it immediately. It has LOTS of new facts in it you don't know yet.

    Bush Warned Repeatedly Iraq Intelligence False Before Pre-War State Of Union...


    AP/Charles Dharapak

    Rove Concealed Evidence, All “About Getting Past The Election”...


    This is the clearest grounds for impeachment that I can think of. Any American who believes what is in this story (I imagine its veracity will soon be proven) is an immoral human being if he does not cry out for impeachment.

    THESE ARE WAR CRIMES. Does nobody care anymore about human beings whose lives were taken from them? Their families?
    Do people think they are the only ones who care about their families?

    I AM TALKING ABOUT HUMAN LIVES.

    HUMAN LIVES.

    Why isn't everyone talking about human lives?

    You know, when I first heard the stories that BushCo was behind 9/11, I was secure in my belief that it could not be true as outlined (I had my own theory, and still do) because I was secure in my belief that the Government of the United States could never, never, never, never murder its own citizens.

    In Sweden, one of the things which made Scalia explode was the question of whether Bush lied about our reasons for going into the war. He exploded, and practically called the questioner a madman. "You are saying the President LIED?" he shouted, and went on ranting about what a presposterous, insane suggestion that was.

    But we now see that it's almost indisputably true that Bush, Condi, et al, including Rove, deliberately lied, and it's a lie that has now cost, according to best estimates, upwards of 150,000 human lives. For no reason. To feed the war machine. To amuse a delusion madman duped by neocon assassins.

    Do you all see why I am so outraged? Please go read the story.

    ITMFA!

    The Democrats who are not calling out for impeachment should hang their heads in SHAME. There is no other word for it. In many ways they are worse than the Republicans, many of whom have been deceived with lies or are blinded by party loyalty. But the elected Democratic officials know the truth, and say nothing.

    I am in a state of shock at how little the Devil has to pay these days in exchange for a person's soul.

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous6:50 PM

    In July 2004, when the Intelligence Committee released a 511-page report on its investigation of prewar intelligence by the CIA and other agencies, Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill., said in his own "Additional Views" to the report, "Concurrent with the production of a National Intelligence Estimate is the production of a one-page President's Summary of the NIE. A one-page President's Summary was completed and disseminated for the October 2002 NIE ... though there is no mention of this fact in [this] report. These one-page NIE summaries are ... written exclusively for the president and senior policy makers and are therefore tailored for that audience."

    Durbin concluded, "In determining what the president was told about the contents of the NIE dealing with Iraq's weapons of mass destruction -- qualifiers and all -- there is nothing clearer than this single page."

    ReplyDelete
  115. Anonymous6:52 PM

    What the Bush apologists simply can't address is that the administration's actions don't back up their obfuscating arguments. They keep wondering if FISA is unconstitutional. If it is, and it was such a great hindrance as well, then why did Bush update it several times instead of working to have it scrapped? He's got both houses of Congress and enough friends on the SCOTUS that after 9/11 he certainly could have made that case! Surely you noted that Gonzales also claimed that they were working within FISA by using the "except by statute" phrase. Know where that phrase came from? The criminal penalties section. In other words, nobody was making the case that the law didn't apply in general, or that it was unconstitutional, they were claiming that because of the AUMF they were exempt from criminal penalities. And if we accept the clearly implied constitutionality from the government actions, then Article II doesn't matter. They accepted it as law, and in doing so accepted any constraints it placed on inherent power.

    The Administration gave credence to FISA through the updates and praise, and through Gonzales' testimony. They put all their eggs in the AUMF basket, and all the spinning in the world isn't going to get you out of that legal quicksand.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Anonymous6:56 PM

    Why isn't everyone talking about human lives?

    Did you TALK ABOUT HUMAN LIVES when Saddam was murdering tens of thousands and shoveling their mutilated bodies into mass graves?

    No? I didn't think so.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Anonymous7:02 PM

    They put all their eggs in the AUMF basket, and all the spinning in the world isn't going to get you out of that legal quicksand.

    Spot on. We struggle to find words to describe the rank incompetent mixed with dangerous arrogance that is BushCo: Delusional, inept, ideologically blind, irresponsible, stupid.

    ReplyDelete
  118. anon @ 6:56pm: I thought about exactly these questions when the Pres. mentioned them yesterday in his speech. Then I recalled:

    1) The US looked the other way when Hussein was gassing Kurds; indeed, dear old Don Rumsfeld was caught on film for posterity shaking hands with Saddam several days after the massacre.

    2) The US backed Hussein with weapons and intelligence in his war with Iran, wherein millions of Iraqi and Iranian lives were lost.

    3) There's some basis to the idea that the US was instrumental in bringing to power in the first place.

    4) The US told the Shiites that it would support them if they rose up against Saddam after Iraq I. They did, the US didn't. Saddam took out his vengeance. One might plausibly say the US was complicit in that massacre because it did not live up to its side of the bargain.

    5) The US was complicit in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of lives through its imposed economic sanctions against Iraq.

    ReplyDelete
  119. ace: According to Wikipedia:

    On May 17, 2002, the court rebuffed then-Attorney General John Ashcroft, releasing an opinion that alleged that FBI and Justice Department officials had "supplied erroneous information to the court in more than 75 applications for search warrants and wiretaps, including one signed by then-FBI Director Louis J. Freeh".[2] Whether this rebuke is related to the court starting to require modification of drastically more requests in 2003 is unknown.

    On December 16, 2005, the New York Times reported that the Bush administration had been conducting surveillance against U.S. citizens without the knowledge of the FISC since 2002.[3] On December 20, 2005, Judge James Robertson resigned his position with the FISC, apparently in protest of the secret surveillance.[4] The government's apparent circumvention of the FISC may also be related to the increase in court-ordered modifications to warrant requests.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Anonymous7:11 PM

    Apparently, when the present Right Wing hears that the Devil called someone and made an offer for her soul and she turned him down, they conclude she is mentally unstable.

    John Podhoretz Attacks Jill Carroll
    Today, Christian Science Monitor reporter Jill Carroll released after three months of being held in captivity in Iraq by kidnappers. The National Review’s John Podhoretz responded by attacking her mental state:

    "It’s wonderful that she’s free, but after watching someone who was a hostage for three months say on television she was well-treated because she wasn’t beaten or killed — while being dressed in the garb of a modest Muslim woman rather than the non-Muslim woman she actually is — I expect there will be some Stockholm Syndrome talk in the coming days."

    This is a day that we should celebrate Jill Carroll’s courage. She put herself in danger to try to give the world a more accurate picture of Iraq. It is totally inappropriate to assume that her description of how she was treated is motivated by anything other than a desire to tell the truth.

    Podhoretz owes Jill Carroll an apology.

    UPDATE: Andrew Sullivan agrees JPod was out of line.

    UPDATE II: Right-wing author and blogger Orrin Judd says Carroll’s comments prove “she was a willing participant” in her own kidnapping.

    UPDATE III: Powerline’s John Hinderaker joins in: “…I want to register a small protest against her statement, widely quoted in the press, that she was ‘well treated’ by her captors. This is a sentiment that one often hears from people who have been released by kidnappers; one gets the sense that the victims are grateful–understandably, perhaps–to the terrorists for letting them go.”


    Neocons, we hardly knew ye. But we sure do now.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous7:24 PM

    I see absolutely no value (and in fact I see real harm) in requiring the president of the United States to get permission from some unelected, obscure judge before he can make battlefield-type decisions regarding the surveillance of our mortal enemies during wartime.

    It's ridiculous to claim that Bush is using this program to make "battlefield-type decisions regarding the surveillance of our mortal enemies during wartime" when he was authorizing warrentless covert domestic surveillance prior to 9/11.

    "Jeffrey Smith, the former General Counsel for the CIA under the Clinton administration, also weighed in on the controversy Wednesday. Smith said he wants to testify at hearings that Bush overstepped his authority and broke the law. His own legal opinion on the spy program was included in a 14-page letter to the House Select Committee on Intelligence that said that President Bush does not have the legal authority to order the NSA to spy on American citizens, aides to Congressman John Conyers said Wednesday evening.

    "It is not credible that the 2001 authorization to use force provides authority for the president to ignore the requirements of FISA," Smith wrote, adding that if President Bush's executive order authorizing a covert domestic surveillance operation is upheld as legal "it would be a dramatic expansion of presidential authority affecting the rights of our fellow citizens that undermines the checks and balances of our system, which lie at the very heart of the Constitution."

    "Still, one thing that appears to be indisputable is that the NSA surveillance began well before 9/11 and months before President Bush claims Congress gave him the power to use military force against terrorist threats, which Bush says is why he believed he had the legal right to bypass the judicial process.

    "According to the online magazine Slate, an unnamed official in the telecom industry said NSA's "efforts to obtain call details go back to early 2001, predating the 9/11 attacks and the president's now celebrated secret executive order. The source reports that the NSA approached U.S. carriers and asked for their cooperation in a 'data-mining' operation, which might eventually cull 'millions' of individual calls and e-mails."

    Bush Authorized Domestic Spying Before 9/11

    ReplyDelete
  122. EWO:

    Why do refuse to link? You’ve been asked repeatedly. It’s not hard, but it is considerate for those who have already read the article you are copying and pasting. I appreciate your enthusiasm and often find your articles of interest. But please link to them with a brief excerpt telling what the article is about. For example, your last post could have read:

    Think Progress has an interesting post about how some neo-cons are attacking Jill Carroll.

    See one sentence! Please give it a try. Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Anonymous7:30 PM

    Sex-Ed Class Becomes
    Latest School Battleground

    Some Parents and States
    Object to Restrictions Linked
    To Federal Abstinence Funds
    By ELIZABETH BERNSTEIN
    March 30, 2006; Page D1

    A push to promote sexual abstinence in teens -- backed by a steady increase in federal funding -- is starting to affect the way sex ed is taught in the U.S.

    In middle schools and high schools across the country, sex-ed classes that discuss birth control as a way to prevent pregnancy and sexual diseases are increasingly being replaced or supplemented by curricula that promote abstinence until marriage and discuss contraceptives primarily in terms of their failure rates....

    Earlier this month, Rhode Island's Department of Education instructed all school districts to refrain from using a federally funded abstinence curriculum in public schools. A spokesman for the department said officials were concerned because the program included "medically inaccurate information" as well as possible religious instruction.

    The expansion of abstinence programs has been propelled by a steady increase in government funding. The funding started ramping up under the Clinton administration. Since 1998, the federal government has spent about $890 million on abstinence programs, including sex-ed courses taught in schools (as well as pregnancy crisis centers and government agencies). But the bulk of it -- $779 million -- has been spent since President George W. Bush took office in 2001. The government is slated to spend $176 million on abstinence programs this year -- up from nearly $167 million last year and $82 million in 2001.


    Am I really asleep and having a particularly horrible nightmare? It can't all be real, can it?

    But the Democrats are right, of course. We should eliminate all tax cuts so we can get more money to put into the abstinence programs and buy more PR ads to spread more disinformation.

    ReplyDelete
  124. So if the NSA program isn't really about catching terrorists, then who are they targeting? According to Think Progress, there's significant evidence that they target the administration's enemies and journalists. Indeed, Ace's beloved Gen. Hayden actually refused to answer a direct question about whether critics of the admin are targets of the NSA spy program(s):

    Multiple news reports have shown that the program was used to spy on thousands of innocent Americans with no ties to al Qaeda, and the Bush administration has been caught spying on political opponents on multiple occassions.

    Bush officials cannot be allowed to spin this question. The burden is on them to show that the program has not been used to spy on journalists or political opponents.

    UPDATE: Via MyDD, Hayden has dodged this question before:

    Gen. Michael Hayden refused to answer question about spying on political enemies at National Press Club. At a public appearance, Bush’s pointman in the Office of National Intelligence was asked if the NSA was wiretapping Bush’s political enemies. When Hayden dodged the question, the questioner repeated, “No, I asked, are you targeting us and people who politically oppose the Bush government, the Bush administration? Not a fishing net, but are you targeting specifically political opponents of the Bush administration?” Hayden looked at the questioner, and after a silence called on a different questioner. (Hayden National Press Club remarks, 1/23/06) (video) (audio)

    ReplyDelete
  125. Anonymous7:38 PM

    From anonymous at 6:56PM:

    "Did you TALK ABOUT HUMAN LIVES when Saddam was murdering tens of thousands and shoveling their mutilated bodies into mass graves?

    "No? I didn't think so."

    And precisely what cast of characters empowered, armed, abetted, and even encouraged (through silence and subtle pressure) him to do those things?

    Are you sure you want to get into an arguement about moral culpability here? *Especially aobut *this*?

    ReplyDelete
  126. Anonymous7:41 PM

    Well, the FISC of review clearly said FISA can not encroach on his power, right?

    Do you kids want to spend the next 200 posts arguing over the definition of "encroach"?


    Simplistic, faulty reasoning. Presidential power in any particular area not expressly written out in the Constitution is not a binary. This is the same logic that's used in the false argument, 'If you oppose the NSA program, then you want the President to never spy on Al-Qaeda'. It's a disengenuous argument, false on it's face, because there are more options than 1 or 0.

    In this case, it's been determined that the Executive branch has some power of wiretapping. It's not and never has been absolute and has always been subject to outside checks from the other two branches. As jao so rightly points out, if the President is right, he can easily challenge FISA in court. He refuses to do so, which is a bit of evidence in and of itself.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Anonymous7:41 PM

    From the "WIN AT ANY COST" file.

    See the problem? See it Kos?

    Robert L. Borosage

    Bio

    03.30.2006
    Dems' Real Security Agenda: Highlight the Difference, Not the Dodge (8 comments )
    READ MORE: Iraq, 2006, George W. Bush
    The Real Security Agenda just published by Democrats will disappoint much of the Democratic base. It doesn't propose immediate withdrawal on Iraq; it doesn't put forth a clear timetable. It accepts much of the military definition of security championed by the administration.

    But activists should embrace it; not denounce it. Democrats do pledge -- however incoherently since they have no power now -- to make 2006 a year of transition in Iraq.

    They pledge to redeploy the troops and have Iraqis take over running their own country. This is stark contrast with the Bush promise that the troops will be there till at least 2009. Democrats pledge a drive for energy independence. This a stark contrast with the Republican addiction to oil, that has included lavishing billions on subsidies for oil producers over last year, while consolidating a base structure in the oil regions.

    We should highlight -- even exaggerate -- these fundamental differences. Bush wants troops to stay in the midst of the civil war. Democrats want them out. Bush will increase our dependence on foreign oil. Dems pledge energy independence.

    By highlighting the difference, activists can help cement Democrats to a withdrawal posture, and help frame the choice this fall. In 2004, Democrats like Hillary Clinton and John Kerry were calling for more troops in Iraq. Now mugged by reality, Dems are calling for "redeployment." Don't focus on the timidity; highlight the contrast with the president. That poses the choice for the country -- and locks Democrats into a clear position.


    Uh, ok Karl, I understand the instructions. Good strategy, as usual.

    ReplyDelete
  128. Ace:

    Then why would any court recognize an exception to the warrant equirement of the Fourth Amendment prior to FISA's enactment in the area of warrantless electronic surveillance on the part of the Executive, if this is a "plain text" reading of the constitution?

    Oh, clever boy. But did anyone challenge this provision of FISA, or these clearly emergency related extra powers? I'm not going to argue such powers shouldn't exist, but I also don't see how they're constitutional. I will say they're common sense. Are you saying because some violations of the fourth amendment have heretofor been allowed, all violations are ok? Slippery slope much?

    What president would challenge his right to use warrantless surveilance in times of emergency? None.

    How do you know it's "illegal"?

    What evidence do you have of this?

    Oh, you're an angry, ignorant leftist, that's how.

    Funny how you "know" but this gentleman doesn't, huh?


    That's your defence? We can't prove it's illegal so it must be legal? Wow, you really set the standard pretty low for a President there bub. Whatever they can get away with! Oh, and silly us, all the details are classified.

    So Bush just needs to break the law, and classify all details of said law-breaking and you're satisfied.

    Oops, except that the program exists, and administration officials admit it involves wiretapping Americans, and they have no warrants. I don't have a specific name of a person wiretapped, nor do I need one. The perpetrator admits the crime.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous7:49 PM

    "They did?

    When?

    Where?"

    Gonzales did. That was his "we're working within FISA" argument. It all hinges on the AUMF, by his own testimony he gives no suggestion that FISA is unconstitutional, simply that the AUMF is the "statute" that makes it legal. Did you not see his testimony, then or since?

    ReplyDelete
  130. Well, this is why no one pays attention to you, represents you in Congress, or is willing to advance your agenda.

    Anon,

    You can't be stupid enough to take that statement completely literally? Of course I care that attempts to catch terrorists work...when they are legal.

    Lest you accuse me of backpedalling, since this program is illegal, I don't care if it is effective. It is illegal and must stop. Its perpetrators have committed felonies and must be prosecuted. Full stop.

    The law is worth more to me than 100 Osama's. If you would rather support any government program so long as it protects you, no matter what laws it breaks, that meets the definition of a fascist.

    Too bad I can't say there's no one representing fascists in congress or advancing their agenda though. Hint: Their party uses an elephant as its symbol.

    Thanks for the online psychiatric assessment, you and Dr. Frist should go into practice together.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Anonymous7:50 PM

    anon, 1:26 pm -

    Not a single commentator in this blog, nor a single newspaper or magazine writer or columnist of even minor notoriety, nor any U.S. elected public official at any level of government, nor anyone in academia down to the elementary school level, nor any judge in the federal or state courts, or any other person who isn't in a mental institution, wants the the president of the United States to have "unlimited powers."

    Where did you come up with that loony notion?


    How about in a President who wants to claim Article II powers in "war"time so he can ignore statutes that infringe on his nominally inherent but in increasingly practical terms plenary authority to allegedly defend the nation for starters? Y'know, pesky, unimportant statutes like the fourth, fifth and sixth amendments is all.

    That and a war against an abstracted noun for seconds. But y'know what? I can picture it now. Just like VE day and then VJ day there'll be someday, some hopefully not far away day when we will be able to celebrate VT day with ticker tape and parades and servicepeople kissing strangers in the streets and marching bands and flowing champagn... I mean sparkling wine and great gosh-a-mighty will that be a SWELL day, won't it? And THEN all this angry, ugly bickering about article II powers and inherent/plenary authority will simply float away on the lightest of breezes because that's what people do with excess power; they instantly and magnanimously surrender it under no compunction or duress. Always. I mean, that's just human nature. Can't you just picture it? Can't you?





    Not.

    We have a "war" against an abstraction practiced by stateless actors. You give me a rational, tangible and universal victory benchmark (I'll even give you huge bonus marks if you can prove limiting American civil liberties will somehow affect this end) and I'll cede the notion Bush (or his masters) is not some power-mad freak.

    ReplyDelete
  132. ace: again, always attacking the messenger (Wikipedia) rather than the message. Take a look at the sources, you twit. I imagine you can't since your one-track Bush idolization hears only angels when he speaks and sings his ode to war.

    As far as Hayden is concerned: Silence speaks volumes. I mean, if someone accuses you of an absurdity then what harm is there in saying no? What operational details would that reveal? It's a binary question demanding a pretty simple yes/no answer. His silence or refusal speaks in such a context.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anonymous7:52 PM

    Feingold asks Watergate figure to testify on censure resolution
    Associated Press
    WASHINGTON - Sen. Russ Feingold has called on Watergate's John Dean to testify at a hearing Friday on the Wisconsin Democrat's resolution to censure President Bush.

    Dean, a one-time White House counsel under President Nixon, testified before the Senate committee investigating the events that eventually led to Nixon's impeachment.

    He recently wrote a column comparing Bush's conduct to that of Nixon's, saying both authorized warrantless wiretapping and broke the law.


    I am just so proud of Feingold, and impressed with his sagacity.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Ace,

    A prominent conservative once remarked:

    "I am particularly pleased when my opponents resort to personal attacks, it means they haven't any political ones left to make"

    Thanks for admitting defeat with your unending string of ad-hominems.

    I have made my points, you have failed to refute them. I have brought you to water, though you refuse to drink. The program is clearly illegal: Wiretapping was done by the admission of the admin, FISA law requires warrants for such activity, no warrants were sought.

    You rely on cyclic premises. No one can prove the program is illegal because republican congress blocks all investigation of the program. Sorry, that won't stand. This isn't a court of law, it's a matter of running a state, and the onus is on the administration to prove their actions are above board, not on us to prove they are not.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Anonymous7:59 PM

    Did you TALK ABOUT HUMAN LIVES when Saddam was murdering tens of thousands and shoveling their mutilated bodies into mass graves?

    A better question is whether Donald Rumsfeld talked about human lives when he met with Saddam in 1984 as an emissary of the Reagan administration, after the U.N. had concluded that Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous8:05 PM

    It's good to know that Condolezza Rice recognizes the vital importance of separation of powers, at least in Russia. On Wednesday, she told attendees at the Annual Meeting of the American Society of International Law:

    "In terms of how democracy is moving in Russia and this transition in this great and complicated place, that there does seem to be a centralization of power and authority in the executive branch in the Kremlin. And what we've said to the Russians is that it's generally understood that if you have too much concentration of power in the executive, without countervailing authorities and power in either a legislature that is truly independent or a judiciary that is truly independent, then you are setting up the conditions for authoritarianism. It is not to say that Russia today is necessarily in that situation. But I think one thing that the Founding Fathers in the United States understood was that separation of powers was a guarantee against whoever might hold the executive power of the presidency because it could, in fact, overreach and then you would have countervailing."

    [from transcript at http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0603/S00555.htm]

    According to 2006 issue 77 of Johnson's Russia List, the AP reports:

    "Jose Alvarez, president-elect of the group, responded: 'I was very encouraged to hear the secretary praise separation of powers. There is concern about this much closer to home.'

    "The crowd of legal scholars and lawyers broke into applause.

    "'Some positions the U.S. government is now taking before our own courts suggest the executive regards himself as above the law,' Alvarez said later, referring to some legal positions taken by the Bush administration
    after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001."

    ReplyDelete
  137. Ace: Duh... you reported that FISC somehow supported Bush's NSA program. As the Wiki article shows, FISC showed a growing discomfort with this very program. What, are you going bats, not even remembering your own assertions?

    ReplyDelete
  138. Anonymous8:09 PM

    He did not say this.

    Why did he spend all that time talking about the history & precedent's then?

    Why didn't he just should AUMF!

    ???

    You're welcome to read the DOJ arguments here


    You obviously can't read. That PDF states clearly that he considers Section II to cover his legality and specifically mentions the AUMF.

    Because communications intelligence
    activities constitute, to use the language of Hamdi, a fundamental incident of waging war, the
    AUMF clearly und unmistakeably authorizes such activities directed against the communications of
    our enemy.


    Since you've proven to have only the least of tenuous grasps on the facts of the talking points you parrot, it's fairly obvious that further 'argument' with you is pointless, much like assaulting a third grader for lunch money.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Anonymous8:11 PM

    "He did not say this."

    I watched the testimony, indeed he pointed to section 109 of the FISA code to show how they were working with FISA. And you yourself might want to read your own link:

    "The AUMF satisfies section 109's requirement for statutory authorization of electronic surveillance"

    "Accordingly, any ambiguity as to whether the AUMF is a statute that satisfies the
    requirements of FISA and allows electronic surveillance in the conflict with a1 Qaeda without
    complying with FISA procedures must be resolved in favor ofan interpretation that is consistent
    with the President's long-recognized authority."

    So, why are they making any effort to comply with FISA requirements if Article II means everything and therefore FISA is unconstitutional?

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous8:14 PM

    EWO,

    I read Waas' article. It is laid out very well but in a way it is just more of the same. We already know that BushCo lied to the American public by manufacturing (most likely unprovable) and fixing (fact) the intel around their determination to go to war. We already have the Downing Street Memos and the more recent British memos telling us that BushCo conspired to take us to war.

    One of the things I now wonder about is if, after our one party system sweeps this lawlessness under the rug, other nations will go to the UN and attempt to bring war crimes charges against BushCo. We have no more credibility. We just have teeth.. rotten and weak though they may be now. What is to stop China from taking the lead and rallying the rest of the world around the idea of war crimes trials? Our consumerism most likely. Who would China sell all that shit to?

    I am not sure what else there is to say really. I have no idea how BushCo apologists live with themselves. If their continued support of BushCo wasn't so fundamentally evil it would be hilarious. But it isn't hilarious - this isn't about supporting a guy because his enemies are trying to take him down because he lied about a blow job.

    This is heartbreaking. America has become the evil it supposedly loathes in others.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Anonymous8:15 PM

    We have a "war" against an abstraction practiced by stateless actors.

    The 135,000 men and women in Iraq and the 20,000 or so men and women in Afghanistan will certainly take issue with your use of scare quotes around the word war.

    I suggest that the next time you see a soldier, marine or airman in an airport or just walking around your neighborhood that you not tell him that his comrades died in an "abstraction." You may find yourself suddenly sitting on your ass with a rapidly blackening eye.

    ReplyDelete
  142. Anonymous8:25 PM

    "Yep, all the eggs in that basket I tell you..."

    But the "statute" reference he's talking about comes from the criminal penalties section of the AUMF. If Article II is universally overriding, then why does the criminal penalties section of the FISA law have any bearing on anything? According to you, it seems his inherent power doesn't need to be supplemented, because it can't be "encroached" upon. You can't have it both ways.

    By arguing that the Administration is working with FISA, he is giving credibility to that law. By his own testimony, the AUMF is the only thing that makes the program legal, "by statute".

    ReplyDelete
  143. The growing quandary that Bush idol worshippers face is the utter defeat of that idol's image of being a virtuous man. Bush ran on a platform that he was more virtuous than Clinton. Yet, his own unvirtuous behavior far outstrips Clinton's sexual pecadillo.

    In his study of virture, Aristotle notes that there are two main categories of virtues--the emotional and the intellectual. A perfectly virtuous person will exhibit all of these virtues at all times in all circumstances and in the right degree.

    Clinton's sexual indiscretion falls under the vice of continence; it's a virtuous failing with regard to the balance that a virtuous person is supposed to exhibit between the emotional and the intellectual.

    Bush's vices, however, fall under the category of the intellectual virtues. While few, if any human, can approach the ideal set out by Aristotle, it seems beyond question that intellectual vices far outweigh the emotional vices.

    The intellectual virtues include theoretical and pragamtic elements. The theoretical is not simply the kind of exercise that Einstein might practise. It also includes holding to truthfulness and awareness of what truth means and entails. Bush's failings in this regard continue to come to light. The perception by the everyday Joan that Bush is a liar undermines his appeal to this virtue.

    Another aspect of virtue is the practical, also called prudence. Bush's miscalculations and mismangement of the so-called "war" against terror have demolished any notion that he is a prudent person. He lacks, therefore, both of the most improtant virtues that a leader must exhibit.

    One can sense the growing despair of the Bushites as more and more of Bush's failures in prudence and truthfulness come to light. In attacking the Reps, the Dems should not simply, therefore, dwell on Bush's prudential vices. They should also show his glaring intellectual failures--which is, I think, what Feingold and others do by calling the President on his duplicity with regard to the NSA program(s).

    The question the Dems should pose to the voter is the following: how and why do you continue to support a man whose truthfulness and prudence have been shown to be negligible? Your support for his vices must reflect back on your own failures in these virtues.

    ReplyDelete
  144. Anonymous8:37 PM

    You see the problem here? John Dean was an insider, a high level Republican when he broke with his President over illegal actions. He had courage.

    The present Democrats have none. They are said to be "cautious." I didn't know coward was spelled cautious.

    Dean's testimony will be somewhat more historic in nature. According to the Senate Library, the man who before joining the Nixon administration served as Chief Minority Counsel to the House Judiciary Committee, has not testified before Congress since 1974, the year that his former boss resigned in order to avoid impeachment.

    For Feingold's Senate colleagues - defensive Republicans and cautious Democrats alike --- the testimony of Fein and Dean may come as a shock to the system. These veterans of Republican administrations past offer little quarter when it comes to the presidential wrongdoing of the moment.


    Hey, why is it Real Republicans, like Bruce Fein, John Dean and Paul Craig Roberts, who are willing to deliver shocks to the system?

    Will the REAL honorable Democrats please stand up? I'm waiting.....

    ReplyDelete
  145. Anonymous8:40 PM

    Or, as Georgia accurately points out at Daily Kos:

    Let's see. We have Nixon's former lawyer saying this program is "worse than Watergate." Reagan's Deputy AG will testify that the President violated the Constitution. And yet Democrats don't want to sign on to censure for fear of appearing partisan. By the way, why aren't the Democrats calling for an end to this program? If they are still ambivalent as to the program's legality and want to play the prudent politician (an absurd position, given the evidence thus far), they should demand the program be halted pending the investigation, and that the President use the FISA court process instead. After all, every day this program is in existence is a day the 4th Amendment and FISA are violated.

    ReplyDelete
  146. The last sentence of the comment on Bush's vices should read:

    The question the Dems should pose to the voter is the following: how and why do the Republicans continue to support a man whose truthfulness and prudence have been shown to be negligible? Their support for his vices must reflect back on their own failures in these virtues.

    ReplyDelete
  147. Anonymous8:47 PM

    Cynic Librarian:The question the Dems should pose to the voter is the following: how and why do you continue to support a man whose truthfulness and prudence have been shown to be negligible? Your support for his vices must reflect back on your own failures in these virtues.

    Well, you're right, but I'm not so sure that this way of putting it will appeal to many Americans outside of those who have taken a solid humanities course at St. Johns College, or Reed, or Chicago...I'm not sure the average American has heard of Aristotle, let alone would be able to absorb such an argument!

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous8:53 PM

    Ace said... @ 8:18pm

    Ace - there would never be enough "evidence" to satisfy you so why should I bother. Another reason why I don't bother is that you seem to have a brain (demented though it may be) and a pair of eyes - why don't you do the right thing, crawl out of your hole, greet the sunshine and read a legitimate news story once in awhile? Oh wait those are written by the leftist media and thus could not possibly be relating facts.

    Ok I give up.

    Keep that trolling up though Ace... Bart and notherbob2 need a friend.

    ReplyDelete
  149. Anonymous8:55 PM

    wow. i can't believe "ace" isn't dismissed outright as a troll. granted, i'm a newbie here, but based on the intellectual quality of argument, why bother even answering him? he's a dc lobbyist for christ's sake, don't you think he might have a horse in this race?

    ReplyDelete
  150. Anonymous9:02 PM

    I am so mad Glenn isn't triplets. I would give anything to read his own analysis of the recent Hamdan oral arguments. Oh well, maybe after the book comes out....

    ReplyDelete
  151. Glenn:

    Intellectually bankrupt Bush apologists have long been propagating the myth that once it's established that the President would have a certain power in the absence of a Congressional statute (such as the power to engage in warrantless eavesdropping for foreign intelligence purposes), then it necessarily means that the power can never be limited by Congress. But our entire system of government -- and the entire point of Youngstown -- is that a President may have the right to act in a certain area in the absence of a Congressional statute, but once Congress regulates in that area, then the President can't exercise that power in a way that violates the law.

    In essence, you appear to be saying that there is not a single Presidential power which is plenary and all can be limited or eliminated by an act of Congress.

    If I am reading you correctly then your theory is not supported by Youngstown and was just rejected by both Kris and the judges who recently testified before the Senate.

    Jackson in Youngstown created a balancing test when the Constitution gives both Congress and the President powers over a subject matter area, which in that case was government seizure of property. By definition, if the Constitution only gives the President the power over a subject matter area, there is nothing to balance and Youngstown does not apply.

    In his written statement to the Senate to which you linked previously, Kris spends a couple pages reviewing Presidential powers which he believes are plenary and not subject to infringement by Congress.

    In their testimony, the judges recognized that there were areas of presidential Article II power which Congress could not infringe and two of them strongly implied that intelligence gathering was just such a power.

    Our system of government is based on a seperation of powers where each branch exercises plenary powers. The fact that the President may exercise his plenary power to gather intelligence without Congressional interference doesn't make him a king any more than Congress' exercise of their plenary power of the purse makes them a collection of emperors.

    Your radical theory of unlimited Congressional power to enact statutes which can nullify Article II (and presumably Article III) powers makes a mockery of the separation of powers and a nullity of the other two branches.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Anonymous9:09 PM

    Quotable
    Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.
    – Alexander Hamilton

    ReplyDelete
  153. Anonymous9:20 PM

    I am kind of mystified by the responses here to Ace. He is obviously a troll. Let him rant and rave. You have better things to do with your time than to treat his posts as worthy of a reasoned response.

    On the other hand, I sometimes get the feeling that he's been sent here by his law professor at Liberty U. to test out possible legal arguments defending the wiretaps. He's probably been assigned a paper and you guys are writing it for him. Why not make him do his own legal rsearch?

    ReplyDelete
  154. Anonymous9:30 PM

    Ace,

    This is the only post I will address to you. Glenn is busy on his book and can't be expected to walk around with a pooper scooper. Please leave on your own will before he has to waste valuable time and delete you into oblivion, where you belong.

    Your attempts at humor (i.e., every word you write) are not funny enough to warrant their taking up bandwidth.

    ReplyDelete
  155. Anonymous9:32 PM

    note the shrill tone as ace frantically copies and pastes his talking points

    ReplyDelete
  156. Anonymous9:34 PM

    RH said...
    Anonymous said... @ 8:15

    As a former Marine that served during the first gulf war I suggest you shove it up your ass.


    Anon, I realized after I went on this tirade that you may not have even deserved it. I am not sure which "anon" you are but either way I want to apologize for that post. What "the troops" think and how they are represented is a big deal to me as I used to be one of them and I don't like them being used in political arguments.

    Anyway - I lost my cool. If I knew how to take down a post I would take that one down. Again, my apologies.

    ReplyDelete
  157. Anonymous10:22 PM

    I quote:
    'Not a single [person] wants the the president of the United States to have "unlimited powers." Where did you come up with that loony notion?'

    Hmm, let's see. The President has claimed the right to kidnap an American citizen and lock him up indefinitely without trial, without ever showing any evidence to any court. (Jose Padilla). He has claimed the right to torture people (signing statement on the McCain bill, memos.) He has claimed the right to simply disregard FISA -- not to even apply for a warrant in cases covered by FISA -- for four consecutive years. He has done so while declining Congressional offers to change FISA. He has claimed the right to keep his actions in doing so secret from everyone, including Congress. He claims that his "inherent authority" extends to the right to break into the home of any American citizen and take stuff from it, without requesting a warrant (memos).

    Please, name some power he doesn't claim he has. He claims he has the power to do anything "necessary for national security" -- but he also claims that he alone gets to decide what is necessary for national security, and that neither Congress nor the courts has the right to tell him that he's wrong, or even the right to know what he's doing. This adds up to claiming that he has the power to do anything.

    Please pay attention. Bush really has claimed dictatorial powers, although he's surrounded his claims with masses of bloviation to confuse people.

    ReplyDelete
  158. Anonymous10:41 PM

    Brabantino:

    Read the DOJ White Paper for your answer.

    http://files.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/nsa/dojnsa11906wp.pdf

    The administration claims FISA is unconstitutional under multiple circumstances. They used FISA as a tool and rejects the notion it is the only tool as unconstitutional.

    ReplyDelete
  159. Anonymous10:54 PM

    jao,

    Thanks not only for your reply, but for your links and your persistence in keeping the Specter and DeWine bills on everyone's mind. Although my previous very long post from the last thread goes into some of my thoughts and I hope to post the conclusion to that farcical tome tonight, you have given me an opportunity to summarize my ideas.

    First, I have no worry about the DeWine bill because I believe it is blatantly unconstitutional. If the Supreme Court is going to allow the wholesale removal of the warrant requirement from the constitution, then it has been "game over" since before I was born. Any quibbles about the details of the FISA court will quickly become nonsensical prayers to a god who has taken the phone off the hook. Please do not misunderstand, I don't want this bill to pass and I despise constitutional Russian Roulette.

    Second, I must confess I have a visceral distrust of Arlen Specter. I have watched this man repeatedly use the external appearance of a sincere, if not hurried, competent, professional legislator looking out for the people and constitution, to do nothing but the work of the devil himself.

    Me = Charlie Brown. Arlen Specter = Lucy. Football = Hope.

    Please color your perception of my words accordingly. Here is my unsubstantiated thesis.

    - Arlen Specter is lying when he say he does not know the details of "The Program."

    - Specter's bill is not an attempt to bring "The Program" under judicial review, it is an attempt to legalize it.

    - Specter's bill is an accurate description of the program itself.

    - The bill would not only legalize data mining under "The Program", but the bill attempts to pull certain aspects of data mining out of the FISA jurisdiction entirely.

    The constitutional issues I think the bill raises are huge.

    - The bill would take the FISA court, which has had a very limited purpose, and pull it much closer to becoming a secret and classified parallel court system.

    - The point you raise about approval of a program instead of target-specific warrants, is very apt.

    - Is data mining, of any kind, possible with our current interpretation of the fourth amendment?

    - Does the constitution allow software, that does nothing except exactly what the NSA tells it to do, to provide evidence for more intrusive eavesdropping?

    These are issues we need to debate out in the open, not have decided by a secret court in rulings we will never see.

    I do ask you to re-listen the exchange between Specter and Morton Halperin at the beginning of the second session. I would be open to any interpretation that does not end with either Specter having not read the bill, lying about what the bill does, or drifting into insanity.

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous11:08 PM

    jao:

    What's happening to you jao? You have the capacity to use reason, but you seem to not employ that capacity more and more often.

    Read what Glenn wrote, and your response once more. Can't you see how your response totally misses what Glenn is saying? Worse, having failed to get Glenn's point, you indulge in some surprisingly ridiculous accusations against him.

    I would have thought those type of wild, silly, off-the-mark accusations were beneath you. I guess they aren't.

    You write: My motives are clear.

    Yes, increasingly so. I personally believe that in a tiny part of your heart and mind, you actually realize the folly of having bought the whole confirmthem.com, Federalist Society playbook.

    But that upsets your personal Universe, so rather than think through the entire implications of what you have now noticed, you want to limit it: tell it to a judge. In your mind, that preserves order, and allows you to make sense of your own Universe which in fact is simply not sensible.

    What judge?

    Scalito?

    You cannot put a bandaid on a large, mortal wound. And looking around for a bandaid is a further waste of effort, increasing the possibility that the patient will die.

    rh: You write in response to anon:

    As a former Marine that served during the first gulf war I suggest you shove it up your ass.

    Please stop, rh, making me fall even more in love with you than I already am. It's becoming a distraction to me :)

    ReplyDelete
  161. Anonymous11:28 PM

    Anon, I realized after I went on this tirade that you may not have even deserved it.

    Whether or not I deserved it is up for others to decide, but it takes real character to write a comment such as you have, and I appreciate it, and I expect others do as well. It is a rare event in the rough-and-tumble world of online debate for someone to say "sorry, I got momentarily carried away."

    Bravo to you sir. You are a man of character.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous11:29 PM

    "The administration claims FISA is unconstitutional under multiple circumstances. They used FISA as a tool and rejects the notion it is the only tool as unconstitutional."

    The link returned an error. That position is still nonsensical, of course. This law is not a tool that the Administration can use or not use at it sees fit. It's a law that it has to abide by. Otherwise, it has no value at all if they can just pick and choose when they comply with it. Why would it be a "useful tool" if they didn't have to deal with it at all? It's a means of oversight for surveillance, if they can do the surveillance without it then it's not useful in the least!

    And again, if it's unconstitutional in any way, it makes no sense to modify it if the changes don't fix the problem. If this was really a concern, they could have modified it appropriately or scrapped it. Yet they didn't. It's only when they get caught violating it that suddenly it's unconstitutional. Funny how that goes, isn't it?

    ReplyDelete
  163. Anonymous12:32 AM

    Ace,

    Don't you have a frat party to be running off to? No need to respond -- I've got your number.

    ReplyDelete
  164. Anonymous12:34 AM

    From rh at 9:34PM:

    "Anon, I realized after I went on this tirade that you may not have even deserved it. I am not sure which "anon" you are but either way I want to apologize for that post."

    Actually, I think that comment from 'anonymous' deserved every bit of bile that could be directed at it.

    Look, no-one here denies our armed forces are presently engaged in combat in various distant parts of the globe. Often of late our servicemen and women are called upon to perform under conditions most of us can only imagine in our nightmares. That is the nature and reality of our current circumstances.

    But to say we are at war immediately invites the question: at war with who? Wars, if they are to mean anything, are fought against a specific enemy, with a realistic strategy aimed at a clear goal.

    Instead, our armed forces are committed to an undeclared 'war' not against a clear enemy, but rather against a tactic of combat. Their lives are being spent in Iraq and Afghanistan and who-knows-where-else to accomplish...what exactly? Neither the Pentagon nor the Administration have put forth actual, concrete objectives or voiced a coherent strategy to accomplish anything.

    Our soldiers are dying every day, and our leaders and elected officials offer nothing but empty platitudes to tell us why. To claim otherwise, or to attack those that raise this point, is worthy only of Limbaugh, O'Reilly and their ilk.

    rh continued:

    "What "the troops" think and how they are represented is a big deal to me as I used to be one of them and I don't like them being used in political arguments."

    I think we all agree here as well, although we should distinguish between criticising the mission upon which they are sent versus using the troops as mere props for scoring cheap political points. The former shows respect for the lives and sacrifices our soldiers so they are not used cheaply, the latter reduces them and the rest of us.

    ReplyDelete
  165. Anonymous12:41 AM

    From Brabantio at 11:29PM:

    "The link returned an error."

    Don't bother with the WH 'white paper' on FISA. It was little more than a press release cobbling together a series of nonsensicle positions, not a serious argument against the statute or its applicability here.

    And I agree with your points here as well. If it really is unconstitutional (which I have yet to hear a serious, persuasive argument for), it should be overturned. If it isn't, then the question should be are modifications even necessary in the first place.

    The fact the Administration is avoiding brining this to the SCOTUS speaks volumes.

    Oh, and Ace? Provided you're still out there, acquaint yourself with the notion of "Judicial Review" before offering further comment.

    ReplyDelete
  166. Anonymous12:50 AM

    Look, no-one here denies our armed forces are presently engaged in combat in various distant parts of the globe.

    But to say we are at war immediately invites the question: at war with who (sic)?

    We are at war with al Qaeda (in both Afghanistan and Iraq), and two factions of the revanchist Sunni Baathists: ex-Republican Guard units and the Fedayeen Saddam. How you can be confused about this is simply mystifying.

    Neither the Pentagon nor the Administration have put forth actual, concrete objectives or voiced a coherent strategy to accomplish anything.

    Absolute rubbish. Our goal is to establish a viable democratic government in Iraq, capable of defending itself against both its foreign and domestic enemies. We are well on our way to accomplishing this goal.

    Our soldiers are dying every day, and our leaders and elected officials offer nothing but empty platitudes to tell us why.

    Nonsense. You're simply not listening, or you are listening and are siding with our enemies.

    ReplyDelete
  167. Anonymous2:39 AM

    Anonymous said... 12:50AM

    This is a parody troll post correct?

    ReplyDelete
  168. Brambling, Hopefully, you read the revision. I do imagine, though, that the neocon gentlemen will understand it just fine--those for whom my comments on dear old Ari were meant.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Anonymous3:59 AM

    Here is the roster for tomorrow.

    Robert F. Turner - War College, Hover Institute on War, Pentagon, academic pretenses, military "intelectual" establishment. bio

    Bruce Fein - "Conservative constitutional analyst", Reagan DoJ lawyer, publishes sometimes with Moonies, known to be critical of the NSA program.

    Lee Casey - DoJ during Regan, Panama Bush administrations, right wing Washington lawyer, a feature on NRO. Titles of some pieces: "The Yassin assassination [by Israel] was perfectly lawful." "The Alarmingly Undemocratic Drift of the European Union". Attacked the International Committee of the Red Cross for what he sees as bias in its treatment of the United States. Etc. bio

    (Casey and Turner are active with Federalist Society)


    John R. Schmidt, DoJ 1994-1997 (Responsible for Civil, Antitrust, Civil Rights, Environment and Tax Divisions), recipient of "International Association of Chiefs of Police Award for Outstanding Contribution to Law Enforcement". Pro NSA. bio

    and John Dean.

    3:2 -- looks like GOP-ers, internal security establishment are running scared.

    ReplyDelete
  170. Anonymous5:56 AM

    Anonymous said...

    Kind of hard to do when you can't think of a single example. Just give me one example of a right you had during the Clinton administration, that you don't have now.

    No problem:

    Amendment VI
    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously
    ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of
    Counsel for his defence.

    See Padilla and Hamdi vs U.S.

    Just to name one

    ReplyDelete
  171. Anonymous6:28 AM

    Ace said...

    As long as we have a President who is telling you to your face that he cannot be restricted in any way by FISA

    Mind pointing out where the President said that?



    No problem:


    By Lisa Rein
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Monday, January 2, 2006; Page A02

    President Bush today mounted his third defense in two weeks of his secret domestic spying program, calling his order authorizing warrantless eavesdropping on U.S. citizens a limited, legal program that Americans understand is protecting their security.

    Taking questions from reporters after a brief stop at an Army hospital in San Antonio to visit wounded troops, the president acknowledged concerns that monitoring overseas telephone calls and e-mails of citizens with suspected ties to terrorism may violate civil liberties. But he called his directive to the National Security Agency (NSA) after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks "vital and necessary" to protect the country.

    ReplyDelete
  172. Anonymous9:53 AM

    Ace said...

    See Padilla and Hamdi vs U.S.

    Just to name one


    Er, so it's your suggestion you have the right to a federal court proceeding as an enemy combatant?

    Padilla is an American citizen arrested at a U.S. airport and held for three years with no charges being filed. Why don't you explain how that makes him an enemy combatant.

    ReplyDelete
  173. Anonymous9:58 AM

    Ace said...

    Um, mind pointing out the sentence where it says "I'm not bound by FISA" because I don't see it there.

    Thanks in advance.

    Unless you have some type of learning disability that prevents you from understanding what you read you would know that the information you requested is in those two paragraphs.

    ReplyDelete
  174. Anonymous9:59 AM

    "isn't it funny that not one person has ret to reply to the claims the Clinton Admin made in regard to executive authority?"

    No, because it has no bearing on anything. Nobody takes Clinton administration action as gospel, unlike Bush supporters today. If Clinton violated FISA, or overreached authority, then he was wrong too. Too bad you impeached him for the wrong thing then.

    ReplyDelete
  175. Anonymous10:05 AM

    Ace said...

    I leave you with this.

    You hypocrites uttered not one word in protest when the Clinton Admin made these arguments absent a war declaration:

    Let me start with a general proposition that I believe to be uncontroversial: there are circumstances in which the President may appropriately decline to enforce a statute that he views as unconstitutional.

    You obviosly suffer from a learning disability. What you just wrote is completely different what Bush has done.

    There is a large difference between declining to enforce a statute and circumventing one because it's inconvenient, substituting what you want to do instead. Get it?

    ReplyDelete
  176. Anonymous10:08 AM

    ace said:

    MORON:

    "I'm not bound by FISA" is nowhere there.

    Stop saying it is, shit-for-brains.

    Name calling: the last refuge of those who have no legitimate reply

    ReplyDelete
  177. Anonymous10:12 AM

    "This isn't a response to their legal arguments."

    Did Clinton violate Congressional law using that rationale? It may make a minor difference.

    If they claimed that they could, then the legal argument is the same as what's been said about Bush:Inherent power applies in the absence of law, it doesn't mean Congress can't write a law regarding that topic at all. If that's what they're really arguing, I would dispute that just as vehemently as I dispute it for Bush. That's why it's irrelevant. Even if Clinton did the exact same thing, I would say it was wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  178. Anonymous10:13 AM

    ace said:

    Why are they still getting FISA warrants?

    Your too easy. They do still get FISA warrants. The claim they make is that Bush has the power to ignore the FISA court when it suits him.

    ReplyDelete
  179. Anonymous10:16 AM

    ace said:

    BTW, there is no difference between declining to enforce it for any reason and "circumventing" it in the end is there?

    Yes there is and if you can't see it that isn't my pronlem.

    ReplyDelete
  180. Anonymous10:18 AM

    From anonymous at 12:50PM:

    "We are at war with al Qaeda (in both Afghanistan and Iraq), and two factions of the revanchist Sunni Baathists: ex-Republican Guard units and the Fedayeen Saddam. How you can be confused about this is simply mystifying."

    What's actually mystifying is your assertion here. 'Al Qaeda' is neither a country, formal organization, nor ethinicity. Its a loose network of individuals, some of them organized into cells, fueled by a witch's brew of ideologies, religious inspirations, and economic resentments that are spread quite literally across the planet. I'd like to know how you make war on a network of fellow travellers, the vast majority of whom likely don't know and have never met one another, who work towards no real common goal beyond striking out at what they individually consider 'evil'.

    Your analysis of what makes up the Iraqi insurgency would be a bit more convincing if you factored in how Sunni, Shi'a, and Kurds are presently as busy targetting each other as they are our troops. This mess has advanced beyond simple resentment against our forces and is now a slow-burn civil war (even if no-one in the Administration has the moral courage to admit this).

    If we follow your logic here, we should actually be mounting invasions of Columbia, Panama and points south to decimate the various drug cartels operating there (the whole 'War on Drugs' remember) and these networks of supplies and distributors are every bit as insidious as Al Qaeda.

    Iraq is even simplier: we just kill everyone there and raze that country to the bedrock, thereby ensuring we never have any problems from them again.

    Please note: I am NOT EVEN REMOTELY SERIOUS ABOUT EITHER OF THESE OPTIONS. This is however where your assertions logically lead.

    You continue by saying:

    "Absolute rubbish. Our goal is to establish a viable democratic government in Iraq, capable of defending itself against both its foreign and domestic enemies. We are well on our way to accomplishing this goal."

    And a bang-up job we're doing of it: two elections have been held, yes, which have merely convened a government that is increasingly aligned with Iran both politically and philosophically. The country's infrastruction and economy are still in ruins. All quality of life indicators - from infant mortality to the quality of schools - have bottomed out. Sectarian violence is escalating daily.

    Those issues aside, wasn't the original justification for the invasion in 2003 (and let's not be coy, that's exactly what it was) the 'fact' Hussein's regime represented a clear and present danger to American national security? Specifically the WMD programs he was supposedly pursuing and his supposed (not to mention long discredited) 'ties' to bin Laden and 9/11?

    If the mission changed at some point, it would certainly be nice of our leaders to tell us that, as opposed to showboating aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln and declaring "Mission Accomplished". It would be even nicer if they put forth an actual *plan* to accomplish this new, still-unspecified objective. But then, that would require actual leadership, wouldn't it?

    Anonymous concludes with:

    "Nonsense. You're simply not listening, or you are listening and are siding with our enemies."

    You really shouldn't refer to yourself in this manner. One might get the idea you were talking to someone else.

    ReplyDelete
  181. Anonymous10:19 AM

    "You have not one shred of evidence Bush violated FISA."

    Really? How is it that the law requires warrants, yet they've run this program for years without the knowledge of the FISA court? How is that not a violation?

    What are you talking about?

    ReplyDelete
  182. Anonymous10:24 AM

    ace said:

    Um, because he wanted to launch a dirty bomb attack.

    See, like it or not, the President has the authority to deem him an enemy combatant.

    Fails to answer the question as to why he was never charged. Just held for three years. Nobody has a problem with arresting someone who plans to make a dirty bomb. Just charge them with it take it to court prove your case and lock him up. With Padilla they left several steps out there and just locked him up for a indeterminate amount of time with no charges. In fact they never charged him with it even after his release.

    ReplyDelete
  183. Anonymous10:35 AM

    From Ace at 9:57AM:

    "Um, because he wanted to launch a dirty bomb attack.

    "See, like it or not, the President has the authority to deem him an enemy combatant.

    "That is a fact."

    Well, I see Ace is back on the proverbial attack. Guess we're in for a very vocal day here.

    If memory serves, the case against Padilla and his alleged plot is reportedly so thin (to the point of being nothing but hearsay) that the government is desperately trying to avoid bringing this to trial.

    As to the President's authority to declare someone an 'enemy combatant', this gets into all sorts of legal and ethical issues vis-a-vis the 'wartime powers' of POTUS. Yes, President Bush has asserted he can do so and needs no Congressional or Judicial authorization. As yet, I don't believe there has been a specific Court ruling at any federal level on this issue one way or the other.

    As always, I welcome any correction on this.

    The trouble however is that Padilla is a US citizen who was arrested on US soil for a 'crime' that hadn't been committed yet and which has yet to be adequately shown in either documentation or evidence. The President has asserted he can simply declare Mr. Padilla, and therefore logically *anyone*, an 'enemy combatant' and hold them indefinitely without regard to either civil liberties or legal rights.

    A frequent refrain here has been the continued assertion of "innocent until proven guilty", which in Padilla's case has apparently been completely discarded. What is to stop the same from happening to other person or persons within US borders who simply hold a contrary position to the Administrations?

    Ace concludes with:

    "Your silly hysteria over this fact is irrelevant."

    The only hysteria I see here is coming from you.

    ReplyDelete
  184. Anonymous10:49 AM

    ace said:

    Yes, and this is a real "logical" supposition because I guess they don't feel like it on Tuesdays & Thursdays, but do the rest of the week.

    Or something.


    By John W. Dean
    FindLaw

    Friday 24 March 2006

    President George Bush continues to openly and defiantly ignore the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) - the 1978 statute prohibiting electronic inspection of Americans' telephone and email communications with people outside the United States without a court-authorized warrant.

    Bush's position is that he does not need Congressional approval for his measures. Even he does not claim that Congress gave him express power to undertake them, but he does claim that Congress indirectly approved such measures when it authorized the use of force to go after those involved in the 9/11 terror attacks on the United States. He also argues that, in any event, approval was not necessary - for he argues that he has such authority under Article II of the Constitution, as the chief executive, and Commander in Chief, charged with faithfully executing the laws of the land and protecting the Constitution.

    Fox News
    Gonzales Defends NSA Wiretaps
    Tuesday, February 07, 2006

    "We are continuously looking at ways we can work with the FISA court in being more efficient, more effective in fighting the War on Terror," Gonzales said, repeatedly stressing that FISA is still being used and that its use actually increased 18 percent from 2004-2005.


    Gonzales and other administration officials argue that going through the FISA court would have been too cumbersome and slow; critics counter that even the FISA court allows an emergency, warrantless search so long as the government gets after-the-fact approval. But that still requires mountains of paperwork, signatures and time lost, Gonzales said.

    ReplyDelete
  185. Anonymous11:02 AM

    As for Clinton, I disliked him too. I disliked the fact that he approved the sale of high technology to the Chinese such as super computers and encryption technology. But most of all I disliked him for allowing the transfer of missle booster separation technology to the Chinese making them now capable of reaching the U.S. with nuclear warheads.

    What is sad is the fact that the Republicans were incharge of both houses of congress and they did nothing about it. Nope they waited to get him for lying about getting an extra-marital bj in th wjite House. As I said sad.

    ReplyDelete
  186. Anonymous12:39 PM

    Let's see.

    In one corner, we have Ace, who believes "Youngstown is practically meaningless here," loudly shouting that we should pay more attention to the nonbinding dicta of a lower court decree (re: sealed case) than to an actual U.S. Supreme Court decision regarding the power of Congress vis-a-vis the President. In the other corner we have people like University of Chicago Law Professor Geoffrey Stone who (joined by other law scholars) writes:

    "As Justice Frankfurter stated in rejecting a similar argument by President Truman when he sought to defend the seizure of the steel mills during the Korean War on the basis of implied congressional authorization: "It is one thing to draw an intention of Congress from general language and to say that Congress would have explicitly written what is inferred, where Congress has not addressed itself to a specific situation. It is quite impossible, however, when Congress did specifically address itself to a problem, as Congress did to that of seizure, to find secreted in the interstices of legislation the very grant of power which Congress consciously withheld. To find authority so explicitly withheld is ... to disrespect the whole legislative process and the constitutional division of authority between President and Congress." Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U.S. 579, 609 (1952) (Frankfurter, J., concurring)."

    Hmmmmmmmm. A University of Chicago Law Professor vs. A University of Pittsburgh idiot.

    No offense, Ace, but I'll go with the University of Chicago Law Professor.

    ReplyDelete
  187. Anonymous1:29 PM

    "You Bush critics seem to be contending that if the NSA is simply monitoring international calls by targeting terrorists in say Pakistan, FISA has been violated."

    Who said that? And who says that the NSA program is monitoring purely international calls?

    ReplyDelete
  188. gris lobo:

    As for Clinton, I disliked him too. I disliked the fact that he approved the sale of high technology to the Chinese such as super computers and encryption technology. But most of all I disliked him for allowing the transfer of missle booster separation technology to the Chinese making them now capable of reaching the U.S. with nuclear warheads.

    This is a pile of nonsense (and a retread of just more fear-mongering and unfounded slime attacks by the Republicans [like Dana Rohrabacher] on Clinton ... see a pattern emerging?).

    I wrote about it here and here and here a long time ago.

    Sorry to see you drag up this old stinking canard again.

    BTW, the "supercomputer" and "advanced telecom" stuff was similar c***; nowadays, what was a export-controlled "super-computer" is not much different from what I send throug the X-ray machine at the airport.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  189. Anonymous1:35 PM

    "As I said, FISA applies to targeting known US persons on US soil."

    What's your contention here, that if the NSA claims that the target is foreign, there doesn't have to be any oversight to make sure no U.S. persons privacy is being violated? That's quite bizarre. Couldn't they use that rationale to spy on political opponents making domestic calls, since no outsider is ever going to have to approve it? Doesn't that seem like a bit of a problem, if that's the case?

    ReplyDelete
  190. Anonymous1:45 PM

    "Let me guess, they're lying, right?"

    Well why is it that if the group is so "limited" that they couldn't have gone through FISA? Surely if it's a small number of cases and there's such good evidence to support a warrant, going through FISA either beforehand or retroactively if necessary should be a breeze. That doesn't exactly mesh with Bush's comment that he couldn't do this through FISA.

    ReplyDelete
  191. Anonymous1:51 PM

    "Um, read the statute, specifically the portion I quoted for you"

    Yes, I did. Any call that's intercepted knowing one party is a U.S. person is "targeting" both people. Are you suggesting that such invasions of privacy are accidental and therefore don't count, or what?

    And the guy who calls everyone else "cowards" cuts and runs...

    ReplyDelete
  192. Anonymous7:56 PM

    Bart--

    "If, as the Judge opines, the President my exercise his Article II power without a FISA warrant in an emergency, he can do it any other time as well."

    But on this reading, wouldn't the judge's statement be a little silly? If the executive can override the FISA court's findings whenever he wants, why on earth did he help draft legislation giving the court any authority at all?

    What he must have meant was, the executive _can_ act unilaterally, but as he noted earlier his power is then at it's "lowest ebb". David Shaughnessey's comment (the very second in this comments section, in fact) is the correct interpretation here. You and ace should both go back and re-read it, especially where he says:

    "From my perspective, all Judge Kornblum is saying is that, ultimately, the president is responsible for the safety of the American people. If the law breaks down or is rendered inadequate on some emergency basis, then the president should be excused for erring on the side of the security of the American people. But if, as happened here, the president does break the law, he better be damn sure that there is a very good reason for doing so . . . every time he does it. It's like ensuring that the reasons for a preemptive war are valid before the war starts."

    I think this issue has been talked to death at this point, and the Kris memo is the final word--there are conflicting powers at work here, and only the details of the matter will determine the legitimacy of FISA and the President's actions--and that this will be determined in a court of law.

    ace--

    You're missing the point about Truong. It may have been decided after FISA, but was about a pre-FISA case. The point of In Re: Sealed seems to have been that the president has the power of surveillance, and that FISA could not encroach on it. But we must read this very carefully: it does not say that FISA encroached on that power and therefore is unconsitutional. That decision has not yet been made--and that is the very question at hand. *Does* FISA in fact try to encroach on the executive's powers? That question, in spite of all the cases that have come before, has not in fact been answered. Either way.

    As for Konblum's other comments about the president's authority, I think he must have been speaking in general terms--since the legislation he himself apparently helped draft specifically limits the executive to one year of warrantless surveillance (and besides, the debate is actually about al-Qaeda's status as a terrorist organization, which is treated differently in FISA than others.)

    Jackson's opinion in that airline case is interesting, but I think it just ultimately begs the same question as everything else: what if the executives foreign affairs powers conflict with those of Congress--who has the upper hand? And the courts are held to have a power to review such questions. The FISA court was not created in order to decide what was and was not a matter of foreign affairs. It was created to decide what was and was not a permissible search.

    Though I admit it would be interesting if FISA were found unconstitutional not on the grounds of Congressional oversight, but rather on the nature of the FISA court itself.

    ReplyDelete
  193. Brabantio:

    [Ace]: "As I said, FISA applies to targeting known US persons on US soil."

    What's your contention here, that if the NSA claims that the target is foreign, there doesn't have to be any oversight to make sure no U.S. persons privacy is being violated? That's quite bizarre....

    Not really. For Title III warrants (i.e., domenstic criminal wiretaps), your calls can also be recorded without a warrant on you ... if you call a person on whom a warrant has been obtained for a wiretap. The "target" is that person; but the gummint isn't limited to listening to only him calling himself; any calls to which he is a party are also subhect to tap. This is "logical" in a way; they really need both sides of the conversation for the wiretap to be of any use. But I'd note that this means the "target" is the foreign person. If the NSA were to "target" a "U.S. person" (that is, put a tap on all their calls, or set the trace triggers for that person's number), the FISA would apply.

    ... Couldn't they use that rationale to spy on political opponents making domestic calls, since no outsider is ever going to have to approve it?...

    Well, it is true is some strange sense that there's no "crime" is there's no one that catches you doing it. Yes, they could target people domestically even political opponents (and I wouldn't put it past the Dubya maladministration to do so), but it woul din fact be illegal (and perhaps that's why they want no oversight).

    ... Doesn't that seem like a bit of a problem, if that's the case?

    Yes. It certainly would be.

    FWIW, "Ace" here is tryng to muddle the issues:

    [Ace]: You Bush critics seem to be contending that if the NSA is simply monitoring international calls by targeting terrorists in say Pakistan, FISA has been violated.

    Oh, bulltwaddley, "Ace". If fact, it's the Republican "spin masters" that have been pushing this meme, claiming that the Democrats don't want such snoops to be done. This is nonsense; it's simply not true! No one thinks that we shouldn't snoop al Qaeda when we get the chance; people like Glenn and many others simply say that when we do our snoops, we ought to follow the laws!

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  194. "Ace" (quoting something from somewhere):

    officials who have been granted anonymity in describing the program because it is classified say the agency’s recent domestic eavesdropping is focused on a limited group of people. Americans come to the program’s attention only if they have received a call or e-mail message from a person overseas who is already suspected to be a member of certain terrorist groups or linked somehow to a member of such groups. And the agency still gets a warrant to intercept their calls or e-mail messages to other people in the United States.

    The calls to known (or suspected) al Qaeda outside the U.S. are not covered by FISA. Domestic calls are covered by FISA (or by the domestic criminal wiretap statutes). These latter call require warrants. But the Dubya maladministration has said that they've done taps outside of FISA and without getting warrants. If it is the first category of calls, this is unremarkable (and legal per se). If it is the second, they need a warrant, and here you claim they got them, so once again no problem. That leaves international calls by these "U.S. persons" where the "U.S. person" is the target, regardless of the foreign person on the other end of the call. These once again require warrants under FISA. But the problem here is that no one has shown to a court that these "U.S. persons" have engaged in any activity or otherwise done anything to rise to the level of "probable cause". If they haven't, then why tap? If they have, the gummint ought to get a FISA warrant (which they shouldn't have any problem doing), as that's what the law -- for better or for worse -- requires.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  195. there are people out there that want the President of the United States (any President not just the current one) to have unlimited powers. The powers of a king. Absolute power.

    Bill "Slots" Bennett is one of those people. On his radio show, he said that if the Supreme Court ruled against Bush's use of the NSA, Bush should ignore the ruling.

    ReplyDelete
  196. Anonymous11:05 AM

    "FWIW, "Ace" here is tryng to muddle the issues..."

    Thanks for the clarification on the "target" issue. And exactly, Bush supporters are simply trying to obfuscate things, which is what I said in my first post.

    If the Administration really believed that FISA was unconstitutional, or that it didn't apply to the targets of the program, that would surely be the first line of defense. Gonzales would have simply said "FISA does not apply here". Naturally verifying this argument would require details to be released to investigating members of Congress as to who was actually eavesdropped upon. But if it's a true and valid defense, then they should have nothing to fear on that score, right? To argue "we worked within the law because of the AUMF" and then say the law doesn't apply or is unconstitutional doesn't make a bit of sense, especially if everything is really above board.

    And there's two common sense issues that arise from giving Ace's arguments any credit. First, as noted above, it would be a very simple way to end the controversy if they were really in the clear. Instead, we get a much more convoluted, much weaker AUMF/Article II justification. This reminds me of scenes in (usually bad) comedies where someone is trying to prevent someone from going into a room and seeing something they really really don't want them to see. They'll block the door, make ridiculous excuses and behave strangely, but say "no there's nothing wrong". Generally speaking when people go to such lengths to hide information, that information is damaging to their cause.

    The second common sense thing is that surely people in the Administration thought of these arguments. Does Ace really believe that he's stumbled into some golden defense that nobody else considered? And if that really were the case, then clearly Bush and his staff are beyond mere incompetence, and it further indicates that he hires, nominates and promotes people based purely on loyalty and not any amount of ability whatsoever. That doesn't make for an administration worth defending so much!

    ReplyDelete
  197. Anonymous4:06 AM

    Here is a link
    http://talkleft.com/new_archives/014443.html
    with the pdf. transcripts of spectors love in with fisa judges

    ReplyDelete
  198. Anonymous9:08 PM

    GONZALES: There was not a war declaration, either in connection with Al Qaida or in Iraq. It was an authorization to use military force.

    I only want to clarify that, because there are implications. Obviously, when you talk about a war declaration, you're possibly talking about affecting treaties, diplomatic relations. And so there is a distinction in law and in practice. And we're not talking about a war declaration. This is an authorization only to use military force.


    This is from testimony on February 6 before the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee. Just had to put this here for the record and comment that it looks like the administration likes to have it both ways technically and rhetorically.

    ReplyDelete