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GUEST POST - By Hume's Ghost
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When I first discovered Glenn's blog I was impressed by the way Glenn so easily cuts through the legal b.s. that is put forth by the administration in defense of its actions and provides clear and concise explanations as to why the reasoning offered by the administration is insufficient. But there is a problem: clear and concise reasoning is not getting through to the public at large. The reason is that Republicans, led by Karl Rove, have found a way around reason and rational discussion - fear. They have exploited fear shamlessly since 9/11 in order to short-cut and bypass democratic discourse.
Thankfully, however, we have a resource at our disposal that Karl Rove can not hope to counter. What we have is the universal reverence that all Americans share for the Founding Fathers and the founding principles of this nation. If we can tap into that, then perhaps we can wake the slumbering spirit of democracy in this nation. For while people may lack the attention to be swayed by legalistic arguments, they are unlikely to remain ambivalent if they are made to realize that our government is being run by men to whom the concepts of democracy are alien or anathema.
Let's start with George Bush.
Does anyone think the President has ever read The Federalist or remembers doing so? Do you believe his actions are in any way informed by reading America's first and (in my opinion) greatest patriot Thomas Paine? Has he read the letters of Jefferson and Adams? If you asked the President who wrote Memorial and Remonstrance, aren't you certain he would be clueless? And to suggest that the President would be familiar with writings that informed the Fathers - Locke, Montesquieu, Spinoza, Voltaire, etc - can't even be taken seriously.
See? It's easy. At every turn I find that the administration is answered by the Founders.
The White House suggests the New York Times is guilty of treason for revealing that the President authorized warrantless surveillance of American citizens.
In "A Dissertation on the Canon and Feudal Law" (1765) John Adams responds:
[L]iberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people, who have a right ... to knowledge ... and a desire to know; but besides this, they have a right, an indisputable, unalienable, indefeasible, divine right to that most dreaded and envied kind of knowledge, I mean, of the characters and conduct of their rulers. Rulers are no more than attorneys, agents, and trustees for the people; and if the cause, the interest and trust, is insidiously betrayed, or wantonly trifled away, the people have a right to revoke the authority that they themselves have deputed, and to constitute abler and better agents, attorneys, and trustees ...
The stale, impudent insinuations of slander and sedition, with which the gormandizers of power have endeavored to discredit your paper, are so much the more to your honor; for the jaws of power are always opened to devour, and her arm is always stretched out, if possible, to destroy the freedom of thinking, speaking, and writing.
And if the public interest, liberty, and happiness have been in danger from the ambition or avarice of any great man, whatever may be his politeness, address, learning, ingenuity, and, in other respects, integrity and humanity, you have done yourselves honor and your country service by publishing and pointing out that avarice and ambition. These vices are so much the more dangerous and pernicious for the virtues with which they may be accompanied in the same character, and with so much the more watchful jealousy to be guarded against.
"Curse on such virtues, they've undone their country."
Be not intimidated, therefore, by any terrors, from publishing with the utmost freedom, whatever can be warranted by the laws of your country; nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your liberty by any pretences of politeness, delicacy, or decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for hypocrisy, chicanery, and cowardice.
The White House asserts that its war powers are without bounds.
James Madison answers in Federalist #47:
The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.
The President claims violating FISA was necessary for national defense and that he is thus justified for acting unilaterally.
George Washington, in his Farewell Address (1796) disagrees:
It is important, likewise, that the habits of thinking in a free country should inspire caution in those entrusted with its administration, to confine themselves within their respective constitutional spheres, avoiding in the exercise of the powers of one department to encroach upon another.
The spirit of encroachment tends to consolidate the powers of all the departments in one, and thus to create, whatever the form of government, a real despotism. A just estimate of that love of power, and proneness to abuse it, which predominates in the human heart, is sufficient to satisfy us of the truth of this position.
The necessity of reciprocal checks in the exercise of political power, by dividing and distributing it into different depositaries, and constituting each the guardian of the public weal against invasions by the others, has been evinced by experiments ancient and modern; some of them in our country and under our own eyes. To preserve them must be as necessary as to institute them.
If, in the opinion of the people, the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed. The precedent must always greatly overbalance in permanent evil any partial or transient benefit, which the use can at any time yield.
We are told that we are being paranoid for worrying about "phantom" liberties being lost.
In "Memorial and Remonstrance" (1785), James Madison tell us:
[I]t is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of citizens, and one of [the] noblest characteristics of the late Revolution.
We are told that terrorists do not have rights.
Thomas Paine in Dissertation on the First Prinicples of Government (1795) advises:
An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.
We are told we should trust that the President will not abuse the unchecked powers he claims to have.
Thomas Jefferson tells us, in " Bill for a More General Diffusion of Knowledge" (1778) :
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Jefferson reiterates and expands on this sentiment in the "Kentucky Resolutions" (1798):
[F]ree government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence; it is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited constitutions, to bind down those whom we are obliged to trust with power: that our Constitution has accordingly fixed the limits to which, and no further, our confidence may go ... In questions of powers, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.
And John Adams, writing in his Notes for an Oration at Baintree (1772) adds:
There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty.
Several days after a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing into the nature of the NSA surveillance program begins Bush announces that a 9/11 style attack on LA was prevented in 2002.
James Madison, anticipating this tactic wrote in 1798 to Thomas Jefferson:
We are repeatedly told we are in a war, and that we will be at war indefinitely.
Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad.
In the Federalist #8 Alexander Hamilton recognized that external threats can erode liberty:
Safety from external danger is the most powerful director of national conduct. Even the ardent love of liberty will, after a time, give way to its dictates. The violent destruction of life and property incident to war, the continual effort and alarm attendant on a state of continual danger, will compel nations the most attached to liberty to resort for repose and security to institutions which have a tendency to destroy their civil and political rights. To be more safe, they at length become willing to run the risk of being less free.
Then, perhaps anticipating the fear-mongering that would be done by this administration Hamilton continued:
The perpetual menacings of danger oblige the government to be always prepared to repel it; its armies must be numerous enough for instant defense. The continual necessity for their services enhances the importance of the soldier, and proportionably degrades the condition of the citizen. The military state becomes elevated above the civil.
The inhabitants of territories, often the theatre of war, are unavoidably subjected to frequent infringements on their rights, which serve to weaken their sense of those rights; and by degrees the people are brought to consider the soldiery not only as their protectors, but as their superiors. The transition from this disposition to that of considering them masters, is neither remote nor difficult; but it is very difficult to prevail upon a people under such impressions, to make a bold or effectual resistance to usurpations supported by the military power.
The administration claims that the provisions of FISA are a burden, that it needed to violate FISA to protect us.
Thomas Jefferson writing to Archibald Stuart in 1791 answered:
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.
The President asks for a military budget that in 2007 will exceed average spending from during the Cold War, despite our enemy no longer being a rival superpower, but instead being men that hijack planes with box cutters.
George Washington, America's first General and first President, upon leaving office told us:
[O]ver grown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty.
Most recently, Senator Patrick Roberts, redefining patriotism as cowardice, tells us "You don't have civil liberties if you're dead."
The ghost of Patrick Henry, returning from the great beyond to answer the wounded call of Lady Liberty cried out:
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
These are just a few examples. But is there any doubt that the course that this administration has set is a radical departure from the vision for American that the Founding Fathers had?
Yet I know and understand how frustrating fighting for what is right can be. Thomas Paine had something to say to us as well, in Common Sense (1776):
Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour; a long habit of not thinking a thing WRONG, gives it a superficial appearance of being RIGHT, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.
This is really awesome and a true antidote to the claim that we are anti-American. It shows that the REAL America haters are the ones who support El Presidente Leader's attack on the True America.
ReplyDeleteHume's Ghost short essay should be read by everyone. It is a reminder of the dire circumstance which the citizens of Colonies found themselves, and the dire circumstances in which we find ourselves.
ReplyDeleteThe modern Conservative movement's greatest politician, Barry Goldwater, said, "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice." I have no doubt that Senator Goldwater's voice would be loudest amongst our chorus of dissent against the trampling of our Constitution and the rule of law by the Bush Administration.
What a great collection of so-worthwhile quotations. Thank you for putting them all together. Much needed reading by, sadly, far too many who have forgotten why the USA exists in the first place.
ReplyDeleteIn the excerpt of Memorial and Remonstrance", you quote We are told that terrorists do not have rights. I do not see that text anywhere in the linked document. Perhaps you meant for it to be commentary and not quote?
ReplyDeleteI do not see that text anywhere in the linked document. Perhaps you meant for it to be commentary and not quote?
ReplyDeleteThat was my fault. In order to post Hume Ghost's post, I had to fix some of the coding, and accidentally caused that sentence to be included in the blockquote. As H.G. wrote it, it is actually his own sentence after the blockquote.
I've now fixed it. Thanks for pointing that out.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteI sent you an e-mail. There is another error in the post after the "we are told terrorists" do not have rights" line. I'm sorry my html is causing trouble.
Many thanks to Hume's Ghost for the essay. It is a pleasure to have some of the most succinct and important thoughts of some of the greatest thinkers so well summarized.
ReplyDeletewell said, and important since i'm always hearing about the founding fathers from these crapheads running this krovy horrorshow.
ReplyDeletei won't be embarrassed to say i've not read any of it before since i'm sure that is the case with most of america.
well, the patrick henry thing i have read, and whole heartedly agree.
thanx for the post, and thanx for this blog, because despite my ignorance i do recognize the perilous nature of the power 'they' claim, but do not rightfully have.
really nice essay.
ReplyDeleteI would like to see this in the papers all across the country.
Excellent. Truly great post. Thank you for this one. It is inspiring and depressing all at the same time. It is so inspiring because it reminds us what we are (or were) and what we could be about again. It is depressing because it shows us just how far we have fallen.
ReplyDeleteCan anyone ever remember a time or conceive of a time in the future when President Bush might say anything remotely resembling any quote listed in HG's post?
I think the answer is obvious. Aside from the fact that Bush simply couldn't, as his command of the English language is lacking to such an extreme extent, it is more important to realize that he wouldn't even if he could. His ideology prevents it.
Oh how far we have fallen as a country that we would ever elect someone such as George W. Bush.
So very well said, Hume's Ghost. I've heard so much blathering since Bush took office about how we need to learn to speak the language and pull the heart strings of the fundalmentalists in order to get through to the electorate, when the truth is that such an approach is on its face devisive and disingenuous.
ReplyDeleteA truly uniting language of sacrality which is available in abundance and directly aimed at the ambitions of the current administration, drawn from our common history and heritage, sounds to me like a winning strategy.
Hume:
ReplyDeleteThe White House suggests the New York Times is guilty of treason for revealing that the President authorized warrantless surveillance of American citizens.
In "A Dissertation on the Canon and Feudal Law" (1765) John Adams responds:
:::heh:::
Did you know that John Adams' Federalists were the one's who enacted the Sedition Act under which this blog would be in violation?
In any case, this passage has nothing at all to do with reporting military secrets to the enemy. On that subject, you might want to see what they had to say about Benedict Arnold.
The White House asserts that its war powers are without bounds.
No, this is a straw man which you folks keep erecting and knocking down in lieu of a genuine legal argument.
James Madison answers in Federalist #47:
The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.
Madison was one of the inventors of the concept of separation of powers. I don't think he would be too favorably disposed to Glenn's theory that Congress can limit of eliminate the powers of the other branches by enacting legislation and thus arrogate all power into its own hands.
The President claims violating FISA was necessary for national defense and that he is thus justified for acting unilaterally.
George Washington, in his Farewell Address (1796) disagrees:
It is important, likewise, that the habits of thinking in a free country should inspire caution in those entrusted with its administration, to confine themselves within their respective constitutional spheres, avoiding in the exercise of the powers of one department to encroach upon another.
The spirit of encroachment tends to consolidate the powers of all the departments in one, and thus to create, whatever the form of government, a real despotism. A just estimate of that love of power, and proneness to abuse it, which predominates in the human heart, is sufficient to satisfy us of the truth of this position.
The necessity of reciprocal checks in the exercise of political power, by dividing and distributing it into different depositaries, and constituting each the guardian of the public weal against invasions by the others, has been evinced by experiments ancient and modern; some of them in our country and under our own eyes. To preserve them must be as necessary as to institute them.
If, in the opinion of the people, the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed. The precedent must always greatly overbalance in permanent evil any partial or transient benefit, which the use can at any time yield.
Another magnificent argument in favor of separation of powers. As Washington instructs, if you don't like the fact that the Constitution gives only the President the power to direct and conduct intelligence gathering, then amend the Constitution rather than attempting to usurp the power through FISA.
BTW, George Washington was a frequent and eager user of spies.
We are told that terrorists do not have rights.
Thomas Paine in Bill for a More General Diffusion of Knowledge" (1778)
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
What exactly does this have to do with terrorists? Those who waged war disguised as civilians were summarily executed at this time.
In the Federalist #8 Alexander Hamilton recognized that external threats can erode liberty
Safety from external danger is the most powerful director of national conduct. Even the ardent love of liberty will, after a time, give way to its dictates. The violent destruction of life and property incident to war, the continual effort and alarm attendant on a state of continual danger, will compel nations the most attached to liberty to resort for repose and security to institutions which have a tendency to destroy their civil and political rights. To be more safe, they at length become willing to run the risk of being less free.
Exactly which of your rights is being violated?
The President asks for a military budget that in 2007 will exceed average spending from during the Cold War, despite our enemy no longer being a rival superpower, but instead being men that hijack planes with box cutters.
We are nowhere close to spending the same percentage of GDP on defense that we did during the Cold War.
Did you know that John Adams' Federalists were the one's who enacted the Sedition Act under which this blog would be in violation?
ReplyDeleteThanks for bringing that. Yes, I did know that. I believe that it makes the other Adams quote, "There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty" even more poignant, as Adams was corrupted by the authority of his office despite what he had previously written.
Power is its own advocate, and invites abuse. If a man such as John Adams could not resist that Siren's call, then what hope should we have that George Bush can.
Great, our resident "copy and paste" troll is again dumping huge block of off-topic "talking points" from the enablers of the chimperor.
ReplyDeleteFeeding this troll is useless because the Internet if full of sites where he can constantly fill his clipboard with inane banter that derails the thread from it purpose.
It is becoming obvious that our copy and paste troll does not have any real arguments to stand on. We could actually choose to let the this moron stand naked in front of the blogosphere.
Instead of creating the illusion of a dialog with the troll, why not all people to see for themselves that he is losing. His chimperor is extremely unpopular and so is the agenda he promotes.
Wouldn't it be enough to just point out that he is just recycling crap that has little or nothing to do with the facts or issues in the thread?
Well, the Dems are finally attempting to exercise a power which the Constitution does give to Congress - the power of the purse.
ReplyDeleteThe Dems submitted a bill to cut funding to the NSA by 20%, which was promptly defeated in committee by the GOP majority.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-intel31mar31,1,2791875.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true
Too bad. They should have let that bill come to the floor and forced a vote to get everyone on record. I am sure this is something the Dems want to run on in the fall along with the Murtha cut and run plan and the Feingold censure resolution.
Well, I responded to what I thought was a valid point in need of response.
ReplyDeleteThe other sections of Bart's response I ignored because they are things where he knows our reasoning, and we know his, so at this point there's nothing left to say about it.
Thanks, HG! I'm bookmarking this page.
ReplyDelete:-)
Cheers,
To "Hume's Ghost" : Thank you!
ReplyDeleteMadison was one of the inventors of the concept of separation of powers. I don't think he would be too favorably disposed to Glenn's theory that Congress can limit of eliminate the powers of the other branches by enacting legislation and thus arrogate all power into its own hands.
ReplyDelete...
Another magnificent argument in favor of separation of powers. As Washington instructs, if you don't like the fact that the Constitution gives only the President the power to direct and conduct intelligence gathering, then amend the Constitution rather than attempting to usurp the power through FISA.
It's Glenn's theory? You're an idiot. The point of separation of powers is exactly that Congress can enact FISA, and if it in fact unconstitutionally usurps the power of the Executive, the Judicial will exercise its check on the Legislative and strike down the law. Turns out FISA is not unconstitutional.
Saying "separation of powers" doesn't make your chimperor any less guilty.
hume's ghost
ReplyDeletethis is an absolutely first rate post.
thanks
and thanks for reminding me
Madison was one of the inventors of the concept of separation of powers. I don't think he would be too favorably disposed to Glenn's theory that Congress can limit of eliminate the powers of the other branches by enacting legislation and thus arrogate all power into its own hands.
ReplyDeleteDon't be ridiculous. Glenn makes no such bold statement about Congress.
He argues congress can limit the powers of the executive in areas left blank by the constitution. He doesn't argue, say that congress could legislate someone else to be Commander-In-Chief, or revoke the President's power of executive-agreements. These powers are explicitly spelt out. But where the law is constitution is silent, congress may speak.
The President in turn, can veto legislation which he feels impedes his power, even where the constitution is silent. If congress overrides him, that is clearly what the founders intended, that congress is ultimately more powerful than the president when they are united.
Even then, if he really feels such a law is unconstitutional, he need only ask the Judiciary to stike it down. If both branches of govt disagree with him, and feel the law is constitutional, it damn well is. The president's last legal recourse then is to go to the people and ask for an amendment (or least to elect a new congress more sympathetic to his constitutional positions).
He is not at liberty to decide for himself it is unconstitutional and merely ignore it. Countries that fall into dictatorships have a long history of that.
Besides, even if your theory about Glenn was right, I'm a hell of a lot more comfortable with a dominant legislative branch than I am with a run-away executive. Your distortion of Glenn's writings are a lot better form of government than your position that the President gets to decide where his powers are, and alone gets to decide what is necessary for national security with no input from the other branches.
You just made my day, Hume's Ghost. This should be read by every American, except for the -- what is it now, 34%? 36%? -- folks who still think Bush is Jesus. Why waste their time?
ReplyDeleteDan said...
ReplyDeleteBart: Madison was one of the inventors of the concept of separation of powers. I don't think he would be too favorably disposed to Glenn's theory that Congress can limit of eliminate the powers of the other branches by enacting legislation and thus arrogate all power into its own hands.
Don't be ridiculous. Glenn makes no such bold statement about Congress.
Just yesterday Glenn posted this:
But our entire system of government -- and the entire point of Youngstown -- is that a President may have the right to act in a certain area in the absence of a Congressional statute, but once Congress regulates in that area, then the President can't exercise that power in a way that violates the law.
This appears to be pretty absolute to me. I challenged this statement as exceeding the Youngstown holding and was contrary to the testimony of Kris and the judges before the Senate this week. If I was wrong in my reading of his post, Glenn declined to correct me.
He argues congress can limit the powers of the executive in areas left blank by the constitution. He doesn't argue, say that congress could legislate someone else to be Commander-In-Chief, or revoke the President's power of executive-agreements. These powers are explicitly spelt out. But where the law is constitution is silent, congress may speak.
Where does Glenn say this? In any case, the President's Article II power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering has been long and well established. This is not an area "left blank" in the Constitution.
I wish progressives would put as much energy into advancing this stuff as the right does in pushing the 10 commandments. We could begin with the Bill of Rights and make a real issue out of making sure they're taught throughout our nation's schools from grade school to graduation. And no one graduates until they get it.
ReplyDeleteI read the letters of Jefferson and Madison a few months ago. It is very instructive to go back and read these things.
ReplyDeleteI have begun to think that it is the very language that the right uses that creates a circular argument that goes no where, that makes it impossible to address and cope with reality, issues and problems. They have become prisoners of their own spin (mentally and otherwise)and have lost the ability to think clearly. Reading the words of the past shows us what clear thinking is needed to get through tough times.
America's first patriot?
ReplyDeleteYou can't control when and where you were born, but Thomas Paine had less than a year in America when he wrote "Common Sense". You're giving short shrift to the man who expatriated him from London-- and who himself already had given decades to the cause.
Thank you for the essay. Here are two more quotes for your list.
ReplyDeleteThe first one is from a man whose experience of slavery gives him significant credibility:
"Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are people who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the awful roar of its waters.
"This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be both moral and physical, but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand; it never did and it never will.
"Find out what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice which will be imposed upon them. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."
--Frederick Douglass,
"The Significance of Emancipation in the West Indies." Speech, Canandaigua, New York, August 3, 1857
The second one is by Thomas Jefferson, June 4, 1798, in a letter to John Taylor after the passage of the Alien and Sedition Acts:
"A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their government to its true principles.
"It is true that in the meantime we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppression of enormous public debt. But if the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have patience until luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at stake."
America's first patriot?
ReplyDeleteYou can't control when and where you were born, but Thomas Paine had less than a year in America when he wrote "Common Sense". You're giving short shrift to the man who expatriated him from London-- and who himself already had given decades to the cause.
I give Paine that honor because he was the first person to fully visualize a United States of America (a phrase which he is credited with coining, by the way) and what it could mean for the world.
The cause of America is in a great measure the cause of all mankind. Many circumstances hath, and will arise, which are not local, but universal, and through which the principles of all Lovers of Mankind are affected, and in the Event of which, their Affections are interested. The laying a Country desolate with Fire and Sword, declaring War against the natural rights of all Mankind, and extirpating the Defenders thereof from the Face of the Earth, is the Concern of every Man to whom Nature hath given the Power of feeling; of which Class, regardless of Party Censure, is the AUTHOR.
It was Paine's Common Sense which articulated the case for independence and convinced the colonists that the only soluble solution was a complete break with England.
And it was Paine's words that were read to Washington's soldiers when their spirits were nearly broken.
THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated.
This led Adams to say of Paine, "Without the pen of Paine, the sword of Washington would have been wielded in vain," and, "History is to ascribe the American Revolution to Thomas Paine."
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly
ReplyDeleteThat pretty much sums up Bush's approach to the Presidency.
Thank you for your well-researched and well-articulated post. I agree with a number of the previous commentors, that this post should be widely read by Americans, because we are sadly being inundated with the veritable shit this administration is trying so desperately to sell us.
ReplyDelete:: nate ::
Madison was one of the inventors of the concept of separation of powers. I don't think he would be too favorably disposed to Glenn's theory that Congress can limit of [sic]eliminate the powers of the other branches by enacting legislation and thus arrogate all power into its own hands.
ReplyDeleteClassic Bart. Misstates Glen. Misreads Madison. Misleads himself and possibly Ace. Fails to persuade anyone who has even a passing fmiliarity with the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Federalist papers.
A very thoughtful and informed post -- unfortunately, most americans have never read these quoted works, and think the "founding" fathers were the pilgrims.
ReplyDeleteThere are many things wrong with bart's statement's, but I'll stick to the most blatant one:
ReplyDelete"What exactly does this have to do with terrorists? Those who waged war disguised as civilians were summarily executed at this time."
On demand, evidence had to be provided on demand to a judge that they had, in fact, waged war disguised as civilians. If such evidence was not provided, the person executing them was guilty of murder. as always.
Do you see the problem with Bush, who appears to have locked up a chicken farmer who happens to have a name similar to an actual terrorist?
You're granting Bush the right to decide, in his sole pleasure, who is a terrorist and who isn't. This is exceedingly dangerous: if he declares you a terrorist, you have no recourse, no way of complaining "But I didn't DO anything!".
That's what's wrong with Bush. If the people he's locking up in Guantanamo are *actual* terrorists, great. But he refuses to show anyone outside the executive branch any evidence that they are. And within the executive branch, anyone who disagrees can (and will) be fired by George W. Bush.
For goodness sakes, the so-called "military commissions" aren't even real courts-martial: if the detainees were given actual court-martials, we would not be nearly so disturbed. Instead, the "commissions" are kangaroo courts with ever-shifting rules designed to follow the whim of the President.
Actually I think we could call them 'Drumheads'.
ReplyDeleteLook it up. It makes me sick to think about it.
Thanks for this! It never ceases to awe how brilliant and shrewd these men that founded our nation. It makes the travesty that is now that much greater and shameful. Keep up the great work!
ReplyDeleteI just wrote a long post about the hearings, but it disappeared, so I will summarize it here.
ReplyDeletel) Naturally I died and went to heaven with Russ Feingold mentioned Glenn Greenwald and his post of today in his testimony. WAY TO GO, Glenn! Don't want to gush, so I'll leave it at that.
2) Bruce Fein is one of the few most intelligent people on the planet. He was perfect: knowledgable, articulate, principled, effective, a demonstration of the beauty of what happens when a world class intellect combines with an unbridled integrity.
3) John Dean was sensational. Statesmanlike, knowledgable, principled, wise, measured, dignified, succint and powerful.
4) Feingold was Feingold, and must obviously be President. He was spectacular. Everyone else will write to praise him, so I only point out here how smart it was of him to address most of his inquiries to the only two people who were there to tell the truth, and give them a further platform, rather than waste time correcting the fallacies of the three trolls.
5) Specter revealed, yet again, himself to be a man so overwhelmed by his own runaway ego that he has lost any pretense to authenticity and gave proof, once again, that anyone who is counting on him for anything is doomed to be betrayed and disappointed.
6) Leahy was great. Hard not to love or trust him. A man of honor.
This would have been a great, great day for America, were it not shockingly marred by one of the ugliest displays of what has become the soul of what calls itself a Government these days. Graham, in a shameful and raw dispay of pure viciousness, resorted to the type of baseless, pathetic, horrifying ad hominem attack on John Dean that has, unfortunately, come to be emblematic of what the faux Republicans now use as their primary modus operandi.
I was repulsed. I was ashamed to be an American. I was engraged. No scorn leveled on Graham would be enough to condemn him for what he did today.
I think everyone should call his office even before they call Sen. Feingold to praise him and tell him that THIS WILL NOT STAND. ATTENTION MUST BE PAID to what he did. This is not America. Get out, you imposter. Leave the stage. You deserve to be eternally vilified for stooping so low, and disgracing this country in the eyes of all who watched the hearings.
What a low, low, low, low point in American history.
The fact that this self-serving fool didn't even know that Nixon did not authorize the Watergate break-in nor know of it before it happened shows that this person, I cannot call him a man, has a knowledge of American history so meager that it matches his miniscule integrity, or lack thereof.
One last point. Did anyone, including Glenn, catch that comment Patrick Leahy made? Listen to that again. He appears to be saying that even in the closed sections to the few who were briefed on the NSA programs, the Administration would not confirm that opening the mail of American citizens on American soil without a warrant was not being done.
That is big news, if I read that correctly, revealed for the first time today.
Every American who doesn't condemn Graham should hang his own head in shame.
Meanwhile, to the members of the Force, bravo and well done!
By the way, did you all pick up that moment which revealed how truly out of touch with reality Specter is?
ReplyDeleteSen.Feingold started to speak, and mentioned first that today is Specter's birthday. The audience there clapped. Specter launched into a stern reprimand, admonishing the audience that this was a dignified hearing and he would not tolerate such a display. He obviously thought they were clapping because Russ started to speak.
Russ, graciously and delicately, pointed out to Specter that the audience was clapping not because he was speaking, but to applaud Specter because it was his birthday.
Specter answered something like "that's about as accurate as some of the other assumptions Feingold makes."
This man, so completely out of touch with reality, is the one in whose hands people are placing the responsibility to save the Constitution? Could trust ever be more carelessly misplaced?
When jao says, Mr. President, tell it to a judge, I hope he doesn't think Specter is the one who is going to have anything to do with making that happen.
Meanwhile, bravos again to Sen. Feingold, John Dean, Bruce Fein, Pat Leahy, and our own Glenn Greenwald! A job well done! A+ and then some!
PS. Glenn, why did they focus on the fact that the censure motion didn't mention bad faith? Should it have? Do they have a legit point there, or are they grasping at straws?
Lindsay Graham, I hope you are happy with yourself, you morally bankrupt disgrace to America. If you had one shred of dignity, which you obviously don't, you would call a press conference and apologize to John Dean.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThere are many things wrong with bart's statement's, but I'll stick to the most blatant one:
"What exactly does this have to do with terrorists? Those who waged war disguised as civilians were summarily executed at this time."
On demand, evidence had to be provided on demand to a judge that they had, in fact, waged war disguised as civilians.
No judge is required by the Geneva Conventions. You merely have to hold a hearing to make that determination.
In WWII, we captured SS masquerading as US soldiers and then executed them. No judge, no trial.
This essay should be mailed to every congressman, every newspaper, magazine, radio station, every registered voter in the nation if it were possible.
ReplyDeleteWhen we discuss microcosms of the problem plaguing our country, the discussion rapidly descends into a quagmire of ad hominem attacks, tautological justifications and other logical fallacies as proponents of today's government obfuscates whatever happens to be the issue de jure.
Gitmo, wiretapping, executive intervention in the Schivo affair, malfeascence in the electoral process... these are all part and parcel of the larger problem of a government tending towards tyranny and a disinterested or misinformed public. Disinterested and misinformed largely because our media has failed in it's most basic function of keeping the public informed.
When we speak of the Jefferson, Paine, Madison, Jay and others, we speak of the very foundation of our country. I believe their words would still resonate in the public sphere.
There seems to be several activists working through and off of this site. It strikes me that getting this particular message out there would be a fine subject for a grass roots campaign.
If the people he's locking up in Guantanamo are *actual* terrorists, great. But he refuses to show anyone outside the executive branch any evidence that they are.
ReplyDeleteActually, we have evidence that they aren't terrorists, or at least, they aren't member of al Qaeda.
From here
fewer than 20 percent of the Guantanamo detainees, the best available evidence suggests, have ever been Qaeda members
And from here
Only 8% of the detainees were characterized as al Qaeda fighters
Now, were we living in a normal world, rather than Wonderland, the implications for an administration that had told us Gitmo housed "the worst of the worst" and people "picked up off the battlefield", somone would be held accountable.
One more point. If anyone wants to know what type of President Russ Feingold will be, I think a very good example is something he did today.
ReplyDeleteIn a moment which displayed not only that he had real class, but that he represents the people of this country and not the politicians, he didn't say "In an article on the Internet" or even pass it off as his own research or that of his staff by not acknowledging the source of the information, but he went out of his way to mention Glenn Greenwald's name and give him credit for his research.
We should dwell on that. He has class. He gives credit where due. He supports the people who support him because of conviction, and is an elitist in terms of intellect, education and station, but a man of the people when it comes to what defines his philosphy of Government.
And not a bad plug for the future of legitimate American discourse: the blogosphere. Plus Glenn, of course!
It's an easy choice for people. Who do you like, Graham or Feingold? Each revealed his soul today. Which of the two represents you?
ReplyDeleteHume's Ghost. OK, only now did I finish reading your guest blog. Absolutely magnificent. Congratulations and thank you. I'll be sending this to every person I know, and agree that every person in America should read it. It should be on the test people must take to become citizens. Powerful stuff of lasting importance.
ReplyDeleteBTW, a friend of mine took a test to become a citizen yesterday. I know nothing of that test. She said that you are supposed to learn the answers to 100 questions, and then they give you 10 of those 100 to answer in order to pass the test.
She said she was in a quandry when answering because, in light of recent assertions by this Administration in defending their current policies, the answers they were going for in the test would actually be false. So in order to pass the test in 2006, she had to deliberately give false answers to some of the questions in order to pass.
Maybe someone familiar with those questions would be able to comment further on that, but if she is right, that would be quite shocking.
I guess they'll have to change the test. The President no doubt has the inherent authority to do that, and make answers that would have been right up to this point in our nation's history, now wrong.
Hume said...
ReplyDeleteIf the people he's locking up in Guantanamo are *actual* terrorists, great. But he refuses to show anyone outside the executive branch any evidence that they are.
fewer than 20 percent of the Guantanamo detainees, the best available evidence suggests, have ever been Qaeda members
Not all terrorists are al Qaeda. There are several affiliated groups in the Islamic fascist movement which are covered under the AUMF including a large number of Taliban.
If any detainee gave aid, comfort or support to al Qaeda or affiliated groups and do not meet the requirements of the Geneva Conventions to obtain POW status, they are illegal combatants.
1. That's not exactly what I said. That's what someone else said, and part of what I quoted in response. You'll note that I said, which you did not quote, "Actually, we have evidence that they aren't terrorists, or at least, they aren't member of al Qaeda."
ReplyDelete2. If you bother to read through those links that I provided you'll see that there's not very good evidence that the majority of people being held at Gitmo were anything other than individuals unfortunate enough to have been rounded up by Pakistani and Afghan forces who turned them over for a bounty (86% of those detained.)
I am frankly disturbed by the mere fact that Bart exists: He is obviously a committed, dedicated political warrior applying a great deal of energy to broadcasting his blathering, soulless talking-points rhetoric. Something in him--such as his humanity, maybe--has been anesthetized.
ReplyDeletePerhaps he is just a paid operative. That might be a tolerable explanation. But, perhaps he is doing this because he BELIEVES in the objective of defending his Leader's "cult of authoritarianism." If so, that would be more chilling. How many people like this are out there walking around in this country?
Does he have any awareness of the sinister nature of the objective he is furthering? Is he as committed to the overthrough of the Constitutional order as his Straussian masters are? Will he want to have his grandchildren living in the Orwellian Hell he is working to create?
Hume's Ghost said...
ReplyDeleteIf you bother to read through those links that I provided you'll see that there's not very good evidence that the majority of people being held at Gitmo were anything other than individuals unfortunate enough to have been rounded up by Pakistani and Afghan forces who turned them over for a bounty (86% of those detained.)
I had a great deal of fun shredding this National Journal series when you or someone else brought it to my attention some weeks ago.
The author bases her claims on the arguments of the detainees defense attorneys and redacted documents without any of the classified intel which these cases are based upon.
When Afghanistan was liberated, we had the Afghanis round up arabs in the country because they were all foreigners who came in with al Qaeda. Hundreds were released after reviews, but many were al Qaeda.
A good example of this is an Arab the credulous National Journal reporter uses as her poster child. He is a young Arab male from the Gulf states who received training in the Quran (most likely in a Pakistani Madrassa) and then went to Afghanistan looking for work.
Give me a break.
There is hardly a migration of Arabs from the rich Gulf States going to impoverished Afghanistan looking for work.
Rather, he fit the classic profile of a young arab male from the Gulf States who get involved in radical Islam, attends a Pakistani madrassa for indoctrination and then is moved into the terrorist groups.
bart--
ReplyDelete"This appears to be pretty absolute to me. I challenged this statement as exceeding the Youngstown holding and was contrary to the testimony of Kris and the judges before the Senate this week. If I was wrong in my reading of his post, Glenn declined to correct me."
I have no idea if Mr. Greenwald corrected you or not, but to quote at length from the Kris memo (which I realize you must have read repeatedly by now, but it bears reiterating here):
"Before FISA's enactment, in the face of Congressional silence, every court of appeals to decide that issue had upheld the President's authority....The constitutional question presented here, however, is whether the President retains such authority in the face of Congressional efforts to restrict it. It is settled general law, after the Steel Seizure case and Dames & Moore, that 'Presidential powers are not fixed but fluxuate, depending on their disjunction or conjunction with those of Congress. The government accepts this. Thus, the question is not whether the President has inherent authority to conduct electronic surveillance, but whether FISA is unconstitutional in restricting that authority....Does the President's Article II power allow him to authorize the NSA surveillance despite the exclusivity provision? That is a very hard question to answer....Congress also clearly enjoys authority to prescribe standards and procedures for courts martial, based on its Congressional grant of authority "To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval forces." The Court has said that under this clause Congress "exercises a power of precedence over...Executive authority....If NSA is breaching FISA's substantive and procedural standards, and if the surveillance acquires a large amount of private information not directly relevant to its objective, it would likely be met with far more hostility."
Kris seems to argue for direct Congressional authority over the governance of the military, rather than arguing for authority to protect individual rights, but the principle is the same; the question has not I don't see how Mr. Greenwald's statement in any way contradicts Kris' position. To repeat Mr. Greenwald's statement, it is that "a President may have the right to act in a certain area in the absence of a Congressional statute, but once Congress regulates in that area, then the President can't exercise that power in a way that violates the law". This is what administration supporters who keep quoting In Re: Sealed are missing. The question is not what powers the executive has in general. The question is _how far they extend_, both in general and in this specific case (that is, post-FISA. The administration also seems to think that wartime is another specific factor.) *That* question is not answered by In Re: Sealed, or by any other decision.
The author bases her claims on the arguments of the detainees defense attorneys and redacted documents without any of the classified intel which these cases are based upon.
ReplyDeleteAnd thus Bart waved his magic wand, making the story go away.
"And thus Bart waved his magic wand, making the story go away."
ReplyDeleteYes, it did. Or was there something more to be said about it?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteSome Guy said...
ReplyDeleteKris seems to argue for direct Congressional authority over the governance of the military, rather than arguing for authority to protect individual rights, but the principle is the same; the question has not I don't see how Mr. Greenwald's statement in any way contradicts Kris' position. To repeat Mr. Greenwald's statement, it is that "a President may have the right to act in a certain area in the absence of a Congressional statute, but once Congress regulates in that area, then the President can't exercise that power in a way that violates the law".
Glenn's statement assumes that all of the President's Article II powers may be regulated (i.e. limited or eliminated) by the mere passage of a statute.
Conversely, Mr. Kris spends the better part of three pages (7-9) in his memo to Justice arguing that the President has a core of plenary Article II powers which are beyond Congressional statutory regulation and gives several examples of these. Mr. Kris then gives examples of subject matter areas where Congress can regulate military matters, but in each case that power comes from a specifically enumerated section of Article I.
While I do have some disagreements with his application of the AUMF to FISA, I am incomplete agreement with Kris' constitutional analysis...so far as it goes. Mr. Kris stops from making the next logical step which I have been arguing here - Congress may enact statutes to enforce only its enumerated powers concerning the military. The remainder of power over the military remains with the President as CiC and that power is plenary. Because no provision of Article I grants Congress the power to direct and conduct intelligence gathering, that power remains plenary with the President.
I must be really, really American, because all of these quotations are nothing but the purest common sense to me. But I have to wonder just how many other really, really American people are out there. I just spent two weeks in the bowels of a red state, where it simply is impossible to get through a conversation of any complexity without hearing at least one reference to Gawd and the archangel Dubya.
ReplyDeleteA cult of personality is upon us.
Thanks for this excellent piece of writing/needed history lesson.
ReplyDeleteIt is the 35% of barts out there who worry me the most. Do they not see where the logical outcome of their wishes/arguments would put our country? We would be no better than little Cuba, with the intellectually challenged shrub as our version of Fidel. Hell, its happening right now. Thank God for Russ Feingold, a Thomas Paine for our times.
Miles: "This is really awesome and a true antidote to the claim that we are anti-American. It shows that the REAL America haters are the ones who support El Presidente Leader's attack on the True America."
ReplyDeleteMy desire is that people would move beyond "us v. them" and focus on what is to be done.
This is not to ask for compromise on what cannot be compromised. But to say, "Given what we have -- what is to be done to make it better." There is a solution.
I fear some may not be ready to embrace a solution until they suffer more abuse of power and rights. If that is what is required, I wish the abuse does not last long.
We have far more in common; we can agree to move forward with a better solution. I know there are options; the issue is whether you will listen to them now, or scream for them later. Let us hope the scream for solutions is for a stronger rule of law; and that the listening begins with all due speed. Rather than shut out those you do not agree with, you may find -- if you spend the time -- that you have much in common, and can agree to a better solution.
To all about Bart --
ReplyDeleteI appareciate the fact that his views may not agree with yours and may at times defy what you think is the rule of law.
There is an opportunity.
Rather, look at Bart from the other side. If you truly believed what you thought -- however wrong -- would you want to have your words and thoughts defeated on the merits; or would you prefer to simply be shown the door?
Rather than look at Bart as a source of irritation -- use him as a measure of what arguments others make which need to be rebutted. Yes, you are on the right side of the law; but you must show that you treat the Barts better than the Barts have treated you.
Be kind to those you disagree with -- they can be valuable in testing, and honing your argument. You are on the right side of the law; until you are comfortable knowing that without a doubt, Bart will continue to remind you of what you most fear: The possibility that you may one day do what Bart and others have done: Be abusive with argument, and impose power without regard to what is reasonable.
Let Bart be a reminder: Of what you stand for, and can prevail over. ALl that's needed is a better argument. With time, you will learn more and be better for it.
As to what Bart is or isn't saying -- perhaps the energy would be better spent on looking at what is or isn't working with COngrss; and what alternatives are needed -- not just in governance, but in how power is lawfully asserted over those in Government who defy our laws, violate rights, and refuse to assert power.
There are many ways. The way forward is to improve things; and address what Bart is saying with something that is better than what we have. Bart's arguments can be made irrelevant with something that is truly novel. It is possible. When you are ready, you will have the answer. Only when you are ready to really do what must be lawfully done to make it happen -- will you be ready to channel your energy into a plan that will solve this problem. Your energy can be better spent on a solution that Bart will learn to embrace as his own. It can be done.
If you are exhausted with Bart, then you are not fit to lead--you are merely tired of your own reaction, and not yet able to lead and inspire others -- both your allies and those who oppose you. With time, you will see what can be done and what you can become. Your preparation has already started. Before we can be expected to lead, we must find the solution that will lead ourselves. It is possible.
Use Bart as a catalyst to become a leader. He can help you be that leader you are capable of becoming.
Wow, excellent work, thank you.
ReplyDeleteyyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnn
ReplyDeleteGlenn and H.G.,
ReplyDeletethank you for illuminations.
>Time makes more converts than reason, you conclude.
Howard Zinn has also another take on the parameters time and space in a piece entitled "America's Blinders". You will find it at http://tinyurl.com/z53fb
keep up the good work
William Lloyd Garrison, the great abolitionist, said this:
ReplyDelete"With reasonable men I will reason, with humane men I will plead, but with tryants I will give no quarter, nor waste argument, for surely they shall be lost."
We need to find all the reasonable and humane Americans, and enlist them in our struggle against the tryants.
Your essay gives us some great tools in that struggle.
By the way, regarding all that "intel" that shows how really bad all those terrible terrorist are at Gitmo -- if the Intel is all that damning, and if it proves just how bad these bad guys are, then why is it not all being made public and the cases against these men being brought to trial immediately? What the hell are they waiting for? Think of all the hay the Bush government could make with cases against all these evil doers. But, in lieu of that happening, as we all watch these men rot in their cells, how can the world not ponder the possibility that the US government has a huge "booboo" on its hands and just doesn't know how to get out of being ultimately responsble for an enormous clusterfuck?
ReplyDelete"With reasonable men I will reason, with humane men I will plead, but with tryants I will give no quarter, nor waste argument, for surely they shall be lost."
ReplyDeleteTo argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine, The American Crisis
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteBart is a stone wall and all you get from beating your head against a stone wall is a concussion.
I spent exactly as much time and energy responding to Bart as his posts merited.
This is flarkin' brilliant. Please, please pass it on to the good people at MoveOn and the DNC -- the ads they could make from this material!
ReplyDeleteOr, maybe, if you're feeling your oats after this brilliance, maybe we can organize a way to collect money and put it on billboards all over the place. Especially "red" states.
I only worry about the general level of knowledge in this country.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how many people would be turned off or discouraged or befuddled by the somewhat (to our eyes of today) odd language; I also worry that many Americans have no idea who Madison, Jefferson or Adams or the other framers were, beyond a hazy sense that they were some kind of important people a long time ago; and I worry too that many who do know who they were would discount their wisdom, since they lived so long ago, and so could, of course, never really understand all the problems we have to deal with today, and so, whose words aren't really all that important or worht thinking about today.
I hope I'm wrong about our state of ignorance as a county today, but I don't know if rational appeals will win the day any more.
Great quotes. I think I'll post some on my own blog!
ReplyDelete