Thus, we have Weekly Standard and National Review prattling on about all sorts of scary stories showing that Iran is an uncontainable danger (invariably as a result of hostile overtures towards Israel, but that doesn't seem to matter, just like it didn't last time); we have New Republic publishing a cover story, complete with all-too-familiar cartoons showing demonic Iranian leaders, which enable people like Jonah Goldberg, on simplistic script, to recite: "Don't let anyone tell you that it's the American right which is trying to "demonize" Ahmadinejad" (yes, what a revealing shock it is that even The New Republic has jumped on the War-Against-Iran craze); and all of the tough-guy bloggers are beating their chest in manly unison, proclaiming their bravery and strength to the world as they stand tall against the Hitlerian-Persian Threat.
But what is really most alarming -- although, I know, it shouldn't be surprising at all -- is that the American media seems not just willing, but tongue-waggingly pleased, to be exploited and used again, in the best tradition of Pravda, as the principal mechanism for venerating governmental claims as though they constitute "news," without even pretending to subject those claims to the slightest bit of skepticism or scrutiny. This Washington Post article by John Pomfret, entitled "Iran Has Raised Efforts to Obtain U.S. Arms Illegally, Official Says," is really a museum-worthy model for the type of mindlessly trustworthy "journalism"which convinced most Americans that Saddam had WMDs (and even that he personally participated in the planning of the 9/11 attacks), which, in turn, led us right into the invasion of Iraq.
The article is long and gives the appearance of being detailed and substantive, but in reality, it does nothing but slavishly print the uncorroborated statements of Bush officials claiming that Iran is engaged in all sorts of nefarious weapons-procuring activities, and has intensified (!) these activities of late. Thus, we "learn":
The Iranian government has intensified efforts to illegally obtain weapons technology from the United States, contracting with dealers across the country for spare parts to maintain its aging American-made air force planes, its missile forces and its alleged nuclear weapons program, according to federal law enforcement authorities.
Over the past two years, arms dealers have exported or attempted to export to Iran experimental aircraft; machines used for measuring the strength of steel, which is critical in the development of nuclear weapons; assembly kits for F-14 Tomcat fighter jets; and a range of components used in missile systems and fighter-jet engines.
"Iran's weapons acquisition program is becoming more organized," said Stephen Bogni, acting chief of the Arms and Strategic Technology Investigations Unit of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). "They are looking for more varied and sophisticated technology. Night-vision equipment, unmanned aircraft, missile technology" and weapons of mass destruction.
I love the "and weapons of mass destruction" oh-so-inconspicuously tacked onto the quote at the end. The next two paragraphs begin, respectively, with these two phrases: "Federal agents say" and "The Bush administration says," and the rest of the article is composed of nothing more than uncorroborated information and statements fed to the reporter by the government.
The reporter's sole effort to "investigate" the claims? "Calls for comment to the Iranian Mission to the United Nations were not returned." Gosh, that's hard-hitting; I hope he didn't strain himself.
Of all the dysfunctional aspects of our governmental system, this is, by far, the most dangerous. This is how most journalism works now. The Government wants to implant certain claims as "facts" into the public discourse. It then contacts the most slavish reporters, promises them exclusivity, and then feeds them a bunch of highly dubious claims which the reporter then dutifully and mindlessly publishes as though it is fact, without any corroboration, investigation, or anything else that distinguishes journalism from other fields such as, say, government propaganda, public relations, or stenography.
There are no critical faculties exercised, no investigation, no skepticism of any kind. In short, there is nothing adversarial between the government and the media -- which was supposed to characterize how this watchdog relationship was to function. The founders didn't guarantee a free press in order to ensure that it could publish government claims without interference. The idea was that the press would be adversarial to the Government, serve as a Fourth Estate when other checks on government power failed. The press has, of course, become the opposite -- it now exists only to amplify and lend credence to even the most suspect and manipulative government claims.
The press simply does not perform its central function. In 2002 and 2003, that core failure led us into an invasion of another country based on pretenses which turned out, in almost every respect, to be false, and clearly they have learned no lessons from that humiliating exploitation. Why did we need this Post article? What is the difference between it and a Bush administration press release? Nothing. It is difficult to be optimistic about much of anything when the longest articles in our nation's largest newspapers about the most pressing public affairs are indistinguishable -- literally -- from government press releases.
As for the geniuses at New Republic, Weekly Standard, National Review, etc., who were wrong about basically everything when it came to Iraq -- how is it possible to be rational and do anything other than disregard everything which this exact crowd says about everything? But more importantly, the media was fed all sorts of fictitious garbage from the Bush administration in the lead-up to the Iraq invasion which they gullibly published, to their eternal embarrassment. How can they possibly not be exercising more caution with regard to statements of this type?
From Glenn's post:
ReplyDelete"How can they possibly not be exercising more caution this type?"
Because it scares and sensationalism sell more copy? These are corporate entities we're talking about, remember.
Sad really.
The New Republic link brings up the Corner.
ReplyDeleteWhy do progressive bloggers continue to be surprised by the corporate media lining up behind all reactionary policies? It's simple. The big media are all owned by reactionaries, and the journalists (like the politicians) do and say whatever they must to keep their jobs and perks.
ReplyDeleteWhat eternal embarassment? If they were actually embarassed they would not do it again.
ReplyDeleteFourth estate or not, journalism is a business like any other. It has a product to sell. The same desire to sell this edition of the WaPo is the same desire that has all of America seeing the Muslim world as some sort of crazed coven of suicide bombers who turn out to the streets in their entirety when the Prophet Muhammed is portrayed in a cartoon. How many millions of Muslims are there in the world? It doesn't matter because 500 of them burning an American flag sells more papers than than the whole rest just being a bit upset about it.
ReplyDeleteIran as an unstable, crazy threatening regime sells papers as well as wars. Most Americans don't remember that Iran had an elected government back in the 50's that was overthrown by the US for threatening to nationalise the oil industry. Iran hasn't invaded a single country since it went to war in ancient times against the Greeks. Ahmednijad and his agressive stance do noen't rule Iran, the mullahs do.
But he certainly sells more papers!
By January 2009, assuming Bush-Nero leaves office, you will not be able to recognize America.
ReplyDeleteWe have suffered massive damage (Iraq, Katrina, massive Federal debt, reactionary judges, and unchecked executive power). Add in an attack on Iran and we will no longer be a superpower.
It's interesting, really. When this government can't finish a war, it just starts a new one. In Afghanistan, the job wasn't finished and Osama bin Laden hadn't been captured. Public support begins to wane. Oh, let's drum up support for a war in Iraq. The Iraq war is unfinished and public support is on the wane. Oh, let's drum up support for a war in Iran. Gee, might there be a pattern here?
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I happened to catch a few minutes of Bill Kristol of the Weekly Standard on some Fox News roundtable with Brit Hume and Juan Williams. After Kristol spelled out all the reasons we couldn't wait around and let Iran go nuclear, Williams asked him if perhaps we shouldn't proceed with a little more caution and seek other avenues before taking military action against Iran. Kristol was adamant that we just couldn't wait. Hume, surprisingly, was somewhat noncommittal.
The New Republic link brings up the Corner
ReplyDeleteTNR is subscription only. The link to that item from The Corner has a lengthy and illustrative excerpt from the New Republic cover story.
The most disturbing aspect of these stories is the abscence of a rebuttal from the Left. With the administration trying to sell a war and the media trying to sell their copy, noone has stood up and said 'hey wait a minute'.
ReplyDeleteThe evidence is there for the citing. Iran is surrounded by US Troops. Amehdewhatshisname doesn't run the country(think of him as being Scott McClelland but a bit more swarthy)the Mullahs do. They've never taken part in any of this sabre rattling.
Why won't anyone in the Democratic party stand up and put these arguements out there.
From Prince Myshkin at 3:55PM:
ReplyDelete"The most disturbing aspect of these stories is the abscence of a rebuttal from the Left."
I fear it may be more a matter of whatever rebuttal is mustered simply doesn't get covered by the various media outlets. Which, quite frankly, is even *more* disturbing.
The 'Iran as crazy' story has become so accepted that the mere mention of an opposing viewpoint would be newsworthy. Whoever says it will get creamed by the right but it will at least put the idea in the debate.
ReplyDeleteDear Glenn,
ReplyDeleteYou keep pointing out that the main stream media is a integral part of the effort to sell Bushco's policies to the American public.
The reason you do so is because you are obviously anti-semitic.
You have mentioned that there should be a real debate in this country about the policy of global intervention.
The reason you do so is because you are obviously anti-semitic.
You have questioned the influence of the extreme far right Christian Fundamentali$ts on the present Administration's policies.
Knowing as you must that the Christian Fasci$t movement has forged an alliance with the Zionist Likud faction to annihiliate all Islamofascists, you could only be criticizing the end-times crowd because you are obviously anti-semitic.
Commenters on your site have advanced the heretical idea that American foreign policy should be geared first toward promoting and protecting the interests of Americans in this country rather than the interests of the Likud faction in Israel.
The reason you allow those comments to appear on your site and not delete them is that you are obviously anti-semitic.
You have criticized the role of neocons in this and former administrations and suggested their influence on foreign policy and their warmongering proclivities at the cost of millions of innocent human lives are a major part of what is now wrong with America.
The reason you criticize neocons like Cheney and Rumsfeld is that you are obviously anti-semitic.
You have critized the thinking of the conservatives on the Supreme Court with respect to habeas corpus and the doctrine of unlimited executive power but in doing so you reveal yourself to be just another bigoted anti-semite.
You worry about Padilla and the rights of other detainees who may be innocent even though many of those individuals are Islamic.
You have refused to post the Danish cartoons on your home page every day.
You talk about collateral damage as if that were something that should factor into running the war machine for maximum profit.
You are against torture as a state sanctioned policy, even knowing that some of those who would be tortured are Islamics.
You have alluded to international laws and treaties regarding human rights and the treatment of prisoners in war.
You would not be so concerned with "human rights", which include the rights of Islamics and non neo-cons if you were not so blinded by your anti-semitism.
Now you mention the Weekly Standard. A new low.
You have mentioned your admiration for Senator Feingold.
The reason you admire him is because you are obviously so anti-semitic.
Why do you hate Jews so much?
How are you any different than Hitler?
How do you live with yourself?
Sincerely,
Eyes Wide Open
Hi! I found your Blog and BlogSearch, I think the dialogue on us politics is very important and must be discussed from all perspectives.
ReplyDeleteWith your insights I would love to have you take a look at a mini-series I wrote on the subject of immigration and, if you want to, join in the dialogue…
My url is: www.debaterelatepontificate.blogspot.com
Remember, War is good for ratings and circulation. Why would the media be critical? There's money to be made.
ReplyDeleteSo Bush wants to be remembered as the one President who had the "courage" (read - complete lack of accountability) to prevent Iran from aquiring a WMD and he refuses to rule out the first use of an atomic weapon against a country with which we are NOT currently at war.
ReplyDeleteTell me aagin which one is the rougue state?
anon: War is good for ratings and circulation. Why would the media be critical? There's money to be made.
ReplyDeleteAnd elections to be one. At least one commentator @ Asia Times.com is honest enough to put the pudding on the table: expect an October surprise to rally the electorate around the President and his war party.
I was just over at Chris Floyd's Empire Burlesque...one of my favorite blogs. The movie Why We Fight is featured in today's post. I watched it. It was excellent. Gwynne Dyer is featured in the film and I suddenly remembered how much I have liked his documentaries, in the past. I recommend this film. Also, Chris Floyd is great.
ReplyDeleteFox News Tries to Smear American Free Press
ReplyDeleteBy Christopher Bollyn - American Free Press
"When Fox News asked to interview me on Sept. 25 about 9/11, I suspected an ulterior motive. Within minutes the ulterior motive was revealed when Alan Colmes switched the subject from 9/11 to the Holocaust – and asked me what I believed. What Fox News and the Establishment media are clearly trying to do is marginalize independent research on 9/11.
Lisa Magalnick Jacknow, an assistant producer, contacted me and said they were interested in evidence that officials of the U.S. government were complicit in the 9/11 attacks...Familiar with the attack-style “journalism” of Fox News and knowing that Rupert Murdoch is an ardent supporter of the “war on terrorism,” I found it hard to believe that Fox News was seriously looking for evidence of high-level complicity.
Colmes was more interested in labeling me and American Free Press as anti-semitic, than in hearing what I had to say about 9/11. An outraged listener called in to protest the “bait-and-switch” tactic and Colmes’ attempt to smear me as an anti-semite.
Colmes told the caller, “You have an agenda too.”
I am shocked, shocked you didn't mention the method of working to get a sympathetic story in an MSM outlet, and then referring to the story as "proof" that something is going on.
ReplyDeleteAs is well known by now, the madman of today is far more crazy than the madman of yesterday.
Accusations of being "wrong" about recent wars in the past are only proof of the bias of Bush critics. Or something. Oy.
Thanks to the Cynic Librarian fot the H/T.
ReplyDeleteHowever, why do we have to let it be an October surprise. If the Dems can get started on it now, if they can paint the picture that Bush is entering into a war to keep hold of Congress, the Administration will not be able to bomb without looking like they're 'wagging the dog.'
We need to stand up and own this issue and shape it to represent a bit of sanity.
I do not think censure is justified at this time.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Senator Feingold that the Administration's attitude toward congressional oversight and the FISA law has been cavalier and arrogant. We are a nation of laws, and those laws should be applied to all of us, from humblest citizen to the president of the United States. No president should be allowed to knowingly and willing flout our laws, and I believe the President exceeded his authority with his domestic wiretapping program. The justifications offered . . . seem to contradict prior precedent and our constitutional design.
But my and Senator Feingold's view is not unanimous. Some constitutional scholars and lower court opinions support the president's argument . . . The question is whether the president understood the law and knowingly flaunted it, or whether he and his aides, in good faith, interpreted their authority more broadly than I and others believe the law allows. Ultimately, this debate must be resolved by the courts.
Also, a censure resolution does nothing to deal with the underlying problem of unchecked executive power. It would not force the president to modify his domestic surveillance program or force the Senate Intelligence Committee to do its job. In order to do that, Congress must reassert its constitutional role in overseeing the domestic surveillance program. And it should bring the warrantless wiretapping program back under the authority of the court established by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). Therefore, my focus is on crafting an effective surveillance program that both combats terrorism and contains meaningful judicial review of wiretapping, which is the most effective way to restore balance between the battle against terrorism and the rule of law.
Sincerely,
Barack Obama
United States Senator
In the meantime, do y'all think our civil liberties are still being violated? Gosh Almighty, I hope not!
ReplyDeletesnark
I have always withheld judgment on Patrick Fitzgerald and refused to join the bandwagaon praising him to the skies.
ReplyDeleteSo far, what good has he done other than to give some liberal blogs lots and lots of stuff to write articles about?
BTW, has Sen. Feingold said anything publicly about the news reports that the government seems to be planning to nuke Iran?
It's amazing how much more of a threat Iran is now, in April 2006, that it was in, say, January 2006.
ReplyDeleteJanuary 31, to be more specific.
Bush's State of the Union address was over 5,000 words. Here are all of the words that he used on Iran and nukes:
"The Iranian government is defying the world with its nuclear ambitions, and the nations of the world must not permit the Iranian regime to gain nuclear weapons."
That's it. Less than 30 words out of 5000+ about Iran's scary threat. Not much of an effort there, even for the light-working Bush.
So. What has changed between January and April to make Iran worthy of a "nuke-first-ask-questions-later" strategy?
But more importantly, the media was fed all sorts of fictitious garbage from the Bush administration in the lead-up to the Iraq invasion which they gullibly published, to their eternal embarrassment. How can they possibly not be exercising more caution with regard to statements of this type?
ReplyDeleteWhat makes you think/believe, etc. that the corporate owned media is embarrassed about its "mistakes" in coverage of the lead up to the invasion and occupation of Iraq? In my humble opinion, the corporate media is in on the deal and their job is simple. a) Play down the profit motive behind this preemptive war; i.e. the hugh profits now enjoyed by the oil industry, military contractors and military suppliers and b)
Dehumanized the population of the country to which America will launch a preemptive nuclear strike.
As for the preemptive strike using nuclear weapons by one country against another, well, its simply the greatest act of naked agression in history and its insane.
Echoes of the Carter speech chiding the American people for having an "inordinate fear of communism."
ReplyDeleteI have a question for those of you who don't mind the Islamic fascists in Iran getting a nuclear arsenal.
Let's say that the Iranians give a third party terrorist group a bomb which they set off in your laps in NYC. The Iranians deny any involvement in the attack and the only evidence against Iran is the same imperfect intelligence which you delight in ridiculing.
Which one of you would call for killing millions of Iranians with a nuclear response when you refuse the much smaller step of a conventional air campaign against military targets to prevent Iran from gaining nukes in the first instance?
In other words, if the Iranians do not take us seriously now because of your dissent, why would they take the entire MAD theory seriously?
"Any understanding of social and cultural change is impossible without a knowledge of the way media work as environments."
ReplyDelete-McLuhan
The rightwing playbook is quite detailed on using the media to express the message (whether by infiltration, fiat or purchase). Couple that with the Bush administration's democracy-pushed apocalyptic agenda - fueled by fear and intimidation - and you have a media that's chasing its tail for a story (ah, the pressures of being a huge, money-making conglomerate) yet afraid of being beaten with a stick if it betrays or disobeys. Bad dog.
Here's the scary part: as the prospects of losing the House and/or Senate in 7 months looms large the Bushies are going to ratchet up that agenda even more and when the "shock & awe" begins in Iran, the ratings-hungry media will be clamoring to cover it.
Bart,
ReplyDeleteCarter was right!
When Team B was telling us that the Soviets had made submarines that couldn't be detected based on us not being able to find them, it turned out we couldn't find them because they didn't exist. When Carter was in office the soviets had difficulty producing enough food for its army, much less the ability to mount any kind of attack on the US.
Thats where you guys go wrong. The Soviet Union collapsed from within. The only other group in the world who doesn't believe that is the mujahedeen of Afganistan who think that they made the USSR crumble.
Sure, Gorby was afraid of Star Wars, but only because it took MAD off the table. You see that what Nukes are used for, Deterence. The Mullahs in Iran aren't suicidal, just like Bin Laden or that other bum in Iraq. They get other people to go and blow themselves up. Any nuke set off by a terrrorist will be traceable back to Iran and the powers that be are not as keen to get to paradise as our leaders would have us believe.
Likewise, the only thing that will keep the US from bombing Iran is a nuclear bomb. Have a look at the map (if you can actually read one)and see which countries border on Iran. Every single one of them has got US armewd forces in them. No wonder they're builing a bomb, I'd build one too.
Iran is going to get a bomb, period. Iran will never use it, it has too much to lose.
Bart, let's correct your scenario:
ReplyDeleteLet's say that the Iranians give a third party terrorist group a bomb which they set off in your laps in NYC. The Iranians deny any involvement in the attack and the only evidence against Iran is the same imperfect intelligence which you delight in ridiculing.
to what we really know in your scenario:
The bomb goes off in NYC. The Iranians deny any involvement in the attack and the only evidence against Iran is the same imperfect intelligence which you delight in ridiculing.
If you were in the White House you would have bombed Iran previously to prevent the attack. But, lets say the attack happens anyway. Whoops, you just bombed the wrong country. Furthermore the bomb that went off in NYC was in retaliation for your attack. Oh well, sh-t happens!
yankeependragon:
ReplyDeleteThis newly translated Iraqi Ministry of Defense memorandum orders the transfer of "special weapons" stored in mortar and artillery shells on March 2003, just before the war. Previous Iraqi documents used the term "special weapons" to refer to chemical weapons.
> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1616468/posts
So much for "lies" about Iraqi WMD. The question is where are these weapons?
Clearly the Press is worthless. We know that already.
ReplyDeleteNow, what?
Prince Myshkin said...
ReplyDeleteThe evidence is there for the citing. Iran is surrounded by US Troops
This is not meant to pick on you. There are certainly sound military arguments for not attacking Iran but Iran being surrounded by U.S. troops isn't one of them I'm sorry to say.
We have 138,000 troops in Iraq which has a population of 26,000,000. Besides the fact that they are already tied down doing combat and combat support missions where they are at, if a full scale civil war breaks out there our guys will be lucky to get out with their lives. Especially since it is likely that all of the factions would turn on the outsiders, the U.S. troops there. We have less than 20,000 in Afghanistan with a population of 31,000,000. All of which are already tied down doing the same types of missions as in Iraq.
A large number of troops in both countries are already doing their third and fourth tours. Combat tours are stressful to say the least and are not endlessly sustainable. And although there is no admission of it there is a shortage of troops for combat. More category 4's are being taken. And there are rumors that at least some sailors coming up for 3 year shore tours are being sent to crash courses and then are being sent to Iraq for one year ground tours.
Given the above information I don't see how our military would be able, in any conceivable way, to engage in combat in Iran. A country twice the size of Iraq and with a population of 68,000,000.
If Bush and admin does anything I don't see how it could involve more than an air attack. And Iran could retaliate in several ways which could make things very difficult for us to say the least.
40% of the worlds oil supply passes through the straits of Hormuz which Iran sits on. I won't speculate on the how easy or hard it would be to block but just the threat of it could send oil prices soaring. Iran could make it militarily more difficult for us in Iraq. And, they could ban together with other OPEC and non-Opec countries in an oil boycott which would again send oil prices soaring.
Bart said:
ReplyDelete"Echoes of the Carter speech chiding the American people for having an "inordinate fear of communism."
I have a question for those of you who don't mind the Islamic fascists in Iran getting a nuclear arsenal.
Let's say that the Iranians give a third party terrorist group a bomb which they set off in your laps in NYC. The Iranians deny any involvement in the attack and the only evidence against Iran is the same imperfect intelligence which you delight in ridiculing.
Which one of you would call for killing millions of Iranians with a nuclear response when you refuse the much smaller step of a conventional air campaign against military targets to prevent Iran from gaining nukes in the first instance?
In other words, if the Iranians do not take us seriously now because of your dissent, why would they take the entire MAD theory seriously?"
We DID have an inordinate fear of Communism...which is not to say we shouldn't have been wary of the Soviet Union and its activities, but it was never as monolithic or invulnerable a threat as was presented to us by the American propagandists and fear mongers, and the inordinate paranoia bred into us at any mention of the "the Commies," or "the Russkies," or whatnot twisted our foreign policy and led us to violent adventuring throughout the world, and to supporting anti-democratic guerillas in places where we feared DEMOCRATICALLY founded governments might be established which were populist or socialist in nature, which was considered de facto contrary to America's interests. The corporations who run American policy never wanted a functional government in this hemisphere which would illustrate that other economic/social models--models which did not bow to corporate power as the guiding powers--that other social organizations might just work. Why is Cuba our mortal enemy? How could Cuba have harmed or threatened us? Why could Cuba not have been an ally, notwithstanding our antipathy to its form of government? After all, we have allied ourselves with brutes such as Saddam Hussein over the years. Our anti-Communism perverted America as much as Bush's pandering fear-mongering about the "global war on terror" will pervert us further.
Now, as to your silly rhetorical question: who says there are those in significant numbers who don't care if Iran gets the bomb? They don't have one now, and they are not close to developing one. We should always be concerned when ANY new country gets the bomb, as, the more players, the greater the chance of a nuclear strike. However, at present, Iran is within its rights to develop nuclear technology for purposes of generating electrical power. We do not have significant intelligence which tells us they are developing nuclear weapons technology...at this time.
Now, it would be regrettable if Iran developed the bomb, and there are non-violent ways which may be employed to retard or even prevent their doing so. However, when any country develops the bomb, they're doing so primarily to attain a greater defensive stature against powerful enemies and perceived potential enemies. There's a great logical leap to assume Iran wants to develop the bomb so it may strike us or pass off a bomb or three to third parties to strike us by proxy. Despite the xenophobia surrounding the middle east and "Islam," they are NOT bent on destroying America. Even the terrorists are not bent on destroying America. They're bent on repelling America from their lands.
As to your idea that there are those who "delight in ridiculing imperfect intelligence," you misstate the facts: rational people accept that intelligence will be imperfect. However, this administration did not act simply because it was given "imperfect intelligence." As you obviously refuse to accept, they purposely hyped and cherry-picked any data which would support their case for war, and they ignored data which ran counter to their suppositions.
The ridicule is not ridicule at all, but scorn and repudiation at the criminal politicizing of imperfect intelligence in service to long-formed ambitions to reshape the Middle East, at the presentation of imperfect intelligence as "bullet-proof" and unassailable. They willfully misrepresented what they knew, both before and after the truth could not be denied.
We are not chessmasters of the world and the Middle East is not ours to "reshape" merely because we decide it "needs" to be reshaped.
Gris Lobo,
ReplyDeleteMy point was not that we have the military ability to contain Iran.
My point is that the aggressive language and posturing by Amediwhatshisname is a response to the strategic position which Iran finds itself. Iran has made numerous attempts to establish detente with the US and we have responded by labelling them a part of the axis of evil and surrounding them with our troops. Iran feels threatened and has followed the same course as the North Koreans. Iran will only stop mouthing off when it gets a bomb which it will use not to attack but to defend itself from what it views as American agression
From Bart at 6:42PM:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1616468/posts
"So much for "lies" about Iraqi WMD. The question is where are these weapons?"
No, Bart. Use your brain:
-how accurate is this translation?
-who did this translation?
-how did something *this* important end up with a website like freerepublic.com?
-what constitutes "special munitions" in this context?
-are there secondary sources that can verify this memo's authenticity and veracity?
After answering all those questions, *then* we should ask where the munitions are.
You know, for someone who claims to have been an intelligence officer in the US Army, you aren't exactly displaying much critical thinking with this stuff. Or is just "Trust" as opposed to "Trust, but Verify" these days?
As to the "WMD lies" aspect of your response, I'm leaving that be. The only one who has been lying all this time is Hussein, as much to his own generals as everyone else.
Ahmadinejad doesn't pull the strings in Iranian foreign affairs. He is a scary person who is easy to demonize and he certainly sells papers (as well as wars). The image of Muslims has been created by the press to sell papers. The Iranians are not crazy, as much as the Bush administration would like you to believe that they are. Ahmadinejad is not a suicide bomber. Get that out of your heads. He will no sooner use an atomic bomb( or let someone else use his bomb) than he would flush the Koran down the toilet or draw a cartoon of Muhammed.
ReplyDeleteGlenn,
ReplyDeleteCorrect. Someone I won't name said the responsibility of journalists _includes_ reporting what the Gov't says, followed by checking on its veracity, followed by reporting on the follow-through.
Michael,
re: Scoops. If the media were to stop being so slavish, they would no longer get invited to the "backgrounders" and "deep backgrounders" which amount to "scoops" in the media. CNN turned center-right after conversations with the NRSC let them know what they could do to stay in the loop.
One time the big press agencies held out on one issue, for a week and a half. They simply believe they can not afford to let Fox (and other slavishly devoted Bushies) get _all_ the "scoops."
bart said...
ReplyDeleteyankeependragon:
This newly translated Iraqi Ministry of Defense memorandum orders the transfer of "special weapons" stored in mortar and artillery shells on March 2003, just before the war. Previous Iraqi documents used the term "special weapons" to refer to chemical weapons.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1616468/posts
So much for "lies" about Iraqi WMD. The question is where are these weapons?
So, our government releases Iraqi documents on the Internets so people like the lone Lebanese freeper can translate them and find the smoking gun?
Beth Marple, Negroponte's deputy press secretary, said amateur translators won't find any major surprises, such as proof Hussein hid stockpiles of chemical weapons.
Still, conservative bloggers, eager to bolster the case for going to war against Iraq, have long argued for release of the documents.Source
Uh, huh.
Why doesn't the "left's" side of this story get reported?
ReplyDeleteIn part, yes, YankeePendragon is correct.
In part, please recall, many Democrats in the House and the Senate are warmongers, vis-a-vis Iran, also.
Tom Lantos(D-CA) is foremost among them, being the ranking member on the House Int'l Relations Committee.
Steny Hoyer(D-TX) and John Edwards both appeared at the recent AIPAC meeting and did everything they could to assure the assembled members that they would stop at nothing to stop Iran.
I, for one, a lifetime Democrat who has _never_ pulled the lever for any Republican, would not be unhappy if the Republicans kept the House. Jim Leach of Iowa not only bucked his party and voted against the war, is not only the most liberal Republican in the House, not only did he vote against the rule on the Hunter Amendment which mocked Murtha and prevented any real debate (by preventing amendment)... Jim Leach also would be Chair of the House Int'l Relations Committee if the Republicans kept the House, since Henry Hyde is term-limited out and is stepping down as a result.
The alternative is to have Tom Lantos in charge of HIRC. Tom Lantos, who voted with the minority of House Democrats FOR the war in Iraq. Who now constantly gets as war-mongery as Fox News when the subject is Iran.
It was Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul (far left and right, respectively) who are not gunning for Persia's destruction.
I saw Chris Matthews the other day practically put the words in Joe Biden's mouth, but all Biden could respond with was mush. I know you think I'm tough on the Democrats but, for god's sake, they are the opposition party.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that people like Chris Matthews (not him specifically, but his type in the media) are exactly the ones who led the charge labelling people who opposed the war in Iraq as being subversive, terrorist-loving weaklings. The Democrats lost two consecutive elections with that smear.
They have themselves to blame for a lot of it - when you don't strongly articulate your views, you have to expect that you're not going to persuade many people. But I don't think it's surprising that most nationally significant Democrats are afraid to stand up to what, every day (literally), is looking more and more like the administration's resolve to attack Iran. Nor is it a mystery why they are afraid - just look at what happened to the ones who did it with regard to Iraq.
NONE of this is intended to excuse or justify the Democrats' cowardice - just to explain what I think it fueling it. It's the same thing with their weakness on the NSA scandal - they are petrified of looking weak with regard to fighting Islamic extremism.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteAccording to Bob Somerby, Chris Matthews was one of the only talking heads who ever questioned the Administration's claims (re: WMD) before the war.
They weren't being led, in that instance, by Matthews sycophancy for the Bush dynasty and the (what it really amounts to) his love of drama in the news.
Matthews revealed this during his Charlie Rose appearance, when, before the 2000 election, he wanted Bush to win because it would be a better story.
According to Bob Somerby, Chris Matthews was one of the only talking heads who ever questioned the Administration's claims (re: WMD) before the war.
ReplyDeleteThat's correct - Matthews was one of the very few skeptics in the national media regarding the Iraq War, and was one of an much smaller group still willing to openly question how much of a role Israel and a desire to help Israel played in the support which some Bush administraiton officials and others gave to the war (a topic which was basically off-limits last time and really must not be this time). That's why I parenthetically exempted Matthews from blaming him for stigmatizing war opponents, but may be should have been clearer in doing so.
ej:
ReplyDeleteArabic speakers on the leftist blogosphere like Juan Cole tried their hand at translation of the captured Iraqi documents and then promptly abandoned the project when their translations undermined their "Bush Lied" fantasies.
Their continued silence speaks volumes as 4-5 arabic speakers in the righty blogosphere have now translated about three dozen documents detailing Iraq's training of domestic and foreign terrorists, Iraq's intent to target US interests with suicide bombers and Iraq's ongoing WMD programs.
This last document discussing the movement of "special weapons" just before the war is perhaps the most interesting to date concerning WMD.
"Special weapons" is the term the Iraqis used for the chemical weapons used to murder Kurds.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1601810/posts
In addition, these "special weapons" were being sent to "Al Musayyib," a site Colin Powell identified as an Iraqi chemical weapon transshipment complex in his speech to the Security Council.
http://rayrobison.typepad.com/ray_robison/2006/04/iraq_document_o.html#comment-16260960
There are 30,000 docs to go...
Mr. Bennett,
ReplyDeleteYou say some "bleeding hearts" want to "ignore the threat."
What threat, exactly, are we talking about here?
Is Iran getting the bomb _more_or_less_ likely, say, in the next five years, than anarchy in Iraq, the colapse of the Afghan government (which still has almost no power outside Kabul, and which is called a sham by some of its members of Parliament, and which is getting ever increasing numbers of US troops to "pacify" the region) or a major flareup between existing nuclear powers, India and Pakistan?
The Iranian Majlis (parliament) passed a motion, months and months ago, which said that if they were referred to the Security Council, they'd stop the current level of co-operation with the inspectors. Time and time again the Goldschmidt reports indicate that the Iranians were volunteering information that the inspectors didn't know, and that this was greatly helping the inspections process.
The Bush administration was well aware of what was going on, and the resolution of the Majlis, and (almost exactly like in 1998 and 2003) ended the inspections.
Nobody in the Bush maladministration actually believed China and Russia would sign onto sanctions. Therefore, it was an entirely bullshit move which prevents Americans from knowing what is really going on inside Iran.
Read the IAEA Goldschmidt reports to get past the hype. With the above, it seems clear to me that the Bush administration is the only existing threat to American national security at this juncture.
Bart,
ReplyDeleteAre you braindead? That memo on the FreeP post is from 1987. Everyone knows Saddam was using chemical weapons then.
According to all the information the Duelfer report uncovered, all weapons were destroyed in 1991 (and maybe early 1992). All WMD programs were destroyed after the defection of Saddam's son-in-law, the head of many Iraqi Weapons programs, Lt General Hussein Kamel.
Geesh.
From Bart at 6:06PM:
ReplyDelete"Let's say that the Iranians give a third party terrorist group a bomb which they set off in your laps in NYC. The Iranians deny any involvement in the attack and the only evidence against Iran is the same imperfect intelligence which you delight in ridiculing."
My, my. You've been watching re-runs of "24" haven't you?
So, explain to us how this hypothetical, homemade nuke make it from Iran into the US. What's the yield we can expect? Will it be delieved by aircraft or on the ground?
"Which one of you would call for killing millions of Iranians with a nuclear response when you refuse the much smaller step of a conventional air campaign against military targets to prevent Iran from gaining nukes in the first instance?"
Given that we've pretty much discussed that point to death, and the current consensus appears to be that such an air campaign would only set back Iranian research, not stop it, and would net the US more problems diplomatically and practically than we already have. Doesn't seem much point, particularly when you have yet to seriously respond to the points previously outlined.
"In other words, if the Iranians do not take us seriously now because of your dissent, why would they take the entire MAD theory seriously?"
I doubt heavily Tehran has people monitoring these comment threads or weblogs to take cues on attitudes on the issue (save perhaps to laugh at how idiotic and insecure some commentators prove).
Insofar as there hasn't been a serious confrontation between the US and Iran since 1979, and Operation Eagle Claw was such a cluster f**k-up from start to finish, I'd say the resolve of both sides is pretty much an unknown quantity to each.
It also bears repeating, Bart, IRAN DOESN'T HAVE A WORKING NUCLEAR BOMB AND DOESN'T LOOK LIKE IT WILL FOR THE REST OF THE DECADE.
Please keep that in mind when spinning scenarios better left to the fictious Jack Bauer.
From Bart at 7:51PM:
ReplyDelete"Arabic speakers on the leftist blogosphere like Juan Cole tried their hand at translation of the captured Iraqi documents and then promptly abandoned the project when their translations undermined their "Bush Lied" fantasies."
Please provide the link where Professor Cole and others stated this.
And its "Professor Juan Cole", Bart. Again, you and professional titles...
"Their continued silence speaks volumes as 4-5 arabic speakers in the righty blogosphere have now translated about three dozen documents detailing Iraq's training of domestic and foreign terrorists, Iraq's intent to target US interests with suicide bombers and Iraq's ongoing WMD programs."
Again, titles and qualifications, please. "Trust, but Verify.", unless its just "Trust" now of course.
"This last document discussing the movement of "special weapons" just before the war is perhaps the most interesting to date concerning WMD."
Wasn't the site in question of questionable authenticity, then and now, or was this the only part of Secretary Powell's presentation that was verified by independent sources?
Oh, wait, NOTHING in that dog-and-pony show they had him recite was properly verified.
""Special weapons" is the term the Iraqis used for the chemical weapons used to murder Kurds."
So their nomenclature remained static for over 20+ years, particularly when it came to their chemical munitions? I'm not disputing this necessarily, I just want to be certain here.
"Trust, but Verify" and all.
Prince Myshkin said...
ReplyDelete"Gris Lobo,
My point was not that we have the military ability to contain Iran.
My point is that the aggressive language and posturing by Amediwhatshisname is a response to the strategic position which Iran finds itself. Iran has made numerous attempts to establish detente with the US and we have responded by labelling them a part of the axis of evil and surrounding them with our troops. Iran feels threatened and has followed the same course as the North Koreans. Iran will only stop mouthing off when it gets a bomb which it will use not to attack but to defend itself from what it views as American agression"
The problem with following the North Korean example is that North Korea already has the bomb and the capability to deliver it, at least as far as Japan. A capability that doesn't yet exist in Iran.
I don't see how Iran finds itself in any difficult strategic position. As I said, the U.S. is in my opinion unable to do anything other than an air strike against them which I have also pointed out that I think would be rather foolish.
No other nation is making any threats. The Chinese and Russians are on friendly trading terms with them, and most likely they will have a new ally when the Shia's end up taking over Iraq.
I don't mean to be insulting but it appears to me that Iran is acting from some sort of inferiority complex from not being part of the nuclear club more than they are to any real threat to their sovereignty
It doesn't help your case that they will not use an A bomb when and if they get it when the newly elected president loudly proclaims that the holocaust never happened and that Israel should be wiped off the map. That would also be foolish IMO but with proclamations like that it's hard to discount it.
My suggestion to them if they actually want nuclear power for electrical generation would be that they accept the Russian offer to process nuclear fuel for them.
That would de-escalate the situation. Then if they were to back away from the statements about the holocaust and Israel, at some point detente with the U.S. might be possible. Not under George Bush, but some president after him.
*(*
ReplyDeleteIs it just possible that Iran is the real deal that Iraq was not? If so, won't that be the real damage the Iraq war does....that it so damages America's ability to rally the world to face a real threat that it is allowed to fester into something more than regional sabre rattling.
I think there is a real fear that Bush has put us in a position where we cannot adequately defend ourselves against real threats because he is chasing phantom threats.
after reading the comments from the bedwetting right-wingers I really need to buy some stock in whichever company makes Depends
ReplyDeletejosh narins said...
ReplyDeleteBart: Are you braindead? That memo on the FreeP post is from 1987. Everyone knows Saddam was using chemical weapons then.
No kidding? Before you start calling other people "brain dead," you might first want to know what you are talking about.
Try to keep up. I offered this 1987 memo to show that the Iraqis were using the term "special weapons" to mean chemical WMD.
This is to show that the order to move "special weapons" in the recently translated March 2003 memo from the Iraqi Ministry defense which I posted before was an order to move chemical weapons on the eve of our liberation of Iraq.
Ooops!
According to all the information the Duelfer report uncovered, all weapons were destroyed in 1991 (and maybe early 1992). All WMD programs were destroyed after the defection of Saddam's son-in-law, the head of many Iraqi Weapons programs, Lt General Hussein Kamel.
You will notice that Mr. Duelfer offered not a shred of physical or documentary evidence that Saddam actually destroyed his WMD in 1991 and 1992. We have taken years and involved hundreds of personnel in destroying our chemical munitions. Yet, Duelfer could offer no one who actually observed nevertheless participated in this alleged destruction.
Instead, as you observed, Mr. Duelfer appears to be relying entirely upon the word of one Hussein Kamal, Saddam's son in law and WMD chief. This is the same Kamal who was recently heard in a recording of an 1995 staff meeting telling Saddam that Iraq had lied to the UN and had hidden the extent of its WMD supplies and programs.
Ooops! So much for the Duelfer theory...
Indeed, both Duelfer and Kay have admitted that some or all of Iraq's WMD were moved to Syria in the mass convoys heading out of Iraq into Syria as the war was breaking out. This means they have no real proof of WMD destruction.
From Bart at 11:08PM:
ReplyDelete"You will notice that Mr. Duelfer offered not a shred of physical or documentary evidence that Saddam actually destroyed his WMD in 1991 and 1992."
A fair point, but neither has there been any evidence, physical or documentary, that his WMD still existed at the time of the 2003 invasion.
As for that memo dated March 2003, until we see verification or know more about (a) the translators involved and (b) the chain of custody of these documents, I suggest we all reserve judgment its veracity.
Need I say it again? "Trust, but Verify".
For the moment, I think we should accept the Duelfer Report as the best available word on the subject.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 7:51PM: "Arabic speakers on the leftist blogosphere like Juan Cole tried their hand at translation of the captured Iraqi documents and then promptly abandoned the project when their translations undermined their "Bush Lied" fantasies."
Please provide the link where Professor Cole and others stated this.
Where in my post did I say that Cole stated anything? I stated that Cole made an attempt at a translation which undermined his own argument.
Here is a link to Cole's foray into one of these docs.
http://www.juancole.com/2006/03/saddam-was-trying-to-capture-zarqawi.html
The military translation of this document stated that it was drafted by Saddam's terrorist militia, the Feyedeen Saddam. They were following up on a report that Zarqawi and al Qaeda were recruiting 2000 Iraqis to go to Afghanistan to fight our troops. This memo has several pics of Zarqawi.
In case you didn't know, Cole is an apologist for Arab terrorists and Saddam of long standing. Cole claimed that this document was actually some sort of an APB by the Iraqi Intelligence Service to arrest Zarqawi.
In the final post in response to this blog by Cole, I asked him how this could be an APB by the IIs if the document was and internal memo of the Feyedeen Saddam militia and did not mention anything about arresting Zarqawi?
Posts on Cole's blog actually have to be approved by Cole before they are posted. He read my post and put it on the blog, but declined to answer my questions. Basically, he was making up utter crap and got called on it.
And its "Professor Juan Cole", Bart. Again, you and professional titles...
OK, I'll call this yahoo with tenure a "professor" as soon as you call Mr. Bush President.
"Their continued silence speaks volumes as 4-5 arabic speakers in the righty blogosphere have now translated about three dozen documents detailing Iraq's training of domestic and foreign terrorists, Iraq's intent to target US interests with suicide bombers and Iraq's ongoing WMD programs."
Again, titles and qualifications, please.
Dude, I am not going to keep reposting the same links over and over. Check out pre war documents at Free Republic, IraqThe Model, Powerline, Captain's Quarters and Ray Robinson.
These blogs and several articles in the press have noted the identity and qualifications of the translators.
More to the point, no one in the leftist blogosphere has been able to challenge any of these translations.
The blogoshere is superb at revealing forgeries and lies. Ask CBS and the NYT.
Bart: "Special weapons" is the term the Iraqis used for the chemical weapons used to murder Kurds."
So their nomenclature remained static for over 20+ years, particularly when it came to their chemical munitions? I'm not disputing this necessarily, I just want to be certain here.
You will be pleased to know that this question was posed by more than one of the righty blogs. However, that begs the question of what was so special about garden variety mortar and artillery shells if not filled with chemical agents?
Indeed, both Duelfer and Kay have admitted that some or all of Iraq's WMD were moved to Syria in the mass convoys heading out of Iraq into Syria as the war was breaking out. This means they have no real proof of WMD destruction.
ReplyDeleteCorrection: "...admitted that some or all of Iraq's WMD could have been moved to Syria
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 11:08PM: "You will notice that Mr. Duelfer offered not a shred of physical or documentary evidence that Saddam actually destroyed his WMD in 1991 and 1992."
A fair point, but neither has there been any evidence, physical or documentary, that his WMD still existed at the time of the 2003 invasion.
Which begs the question of what happened to these WMD.
As for that memo dated March 2003, until we see verification or know more about (a) the translators involved and (b) the chain of custody of these documents, I suggest we all reserve judgment its veracity.
I agree. However, this is only one of many documents. The evidence is piling up and we have only just started.
For the moment, I think we should accept the Duelfer Report as the best available word on the subject.
Hardly. The military and CIA did verify the authenticity of the released tapes of Saddam's 1995 staff meetings, which include Kamel's report to Saddam that Iraq had lied to the UN about the extent of its WMD and WMD supplies, especially its chemical and biological WMD. The admissions of the head of Saddam's WMD program to Saddam himself is far better evidence of the actual state of affairs than Duelfer's speculation without evidence.
Some of us weren't fooled by Bushco's propaganda in the run-up to the Iraq fiasco. So we can't be fooled again. As if that could make me happy.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that some of the media are beginning to open their eyes to the second round of propaganda is really irrelevant here. If they're expecting Lucy to snatch the football away at the last moment, they're going to be very suprised when Lucy comes back with a change-up, and puts one in the dirt just under the strike zone. It's a different game. Submitted for your consideration:
Iran isn't developing a nuke - Iran already has a nuke, perhaps a few. They probably have Cyrillic lettering on them. Iran has been keeping them under several hundred feet of rock, at the bottom of a mine with only one entrance / exit. But now, two of those nukes are on small boats in the eastern Mediterranean Sea, while the Iranian President tweaks the American President's nose and goads him into an undeclared act of war. All those centrifuges and pipes are just window-dressing, the Iranian techs dust them with a little U-235 to keep the IAEA and Bushco focussed. And once the Iranians are attacked, they 'defensively' take out Haifa and Tel Aviv. Even some moderate, pro-western Muslims stand slack-jawed and applauding as America is humiliated and Israel incinerated. This would be a bad outcome.
Call it the 'Tar Baby' option. Now the real question: Is Bush smart enough not the punch that tar baby?
Dopey-o
The admissions of the head of Saddam's WMD program to Saddam himself is far better evidence of the actual state of affairs than Duelfer's speculation without evidence.
ReplyDeleteIt is comical, truly Bartworthy, to bring this up at this late date as evidence of the existence of WMD, rather than the opposite. For Hussein Kamel had not the slightest reason to lie, and everything he said has checked out. And the full interview was leaked and released shortly before the war and in it Kamel said all these secret WMDs were destroyed long ago!
"Nor is it a mystery why [the Democrats] are afraid [of opposing violence against Iran] - just look at what happened to the ones who did it with regard to Iraq."
ReplyDeleteI just didn't want to let this premise pass unexamined:
What DID happen to those Members of Congress who opposed authorizing the invasion of Iraq? Because all that comes immediately to mind are the difficulties of the Democrats who DIDN'T oppose the invasion of Iraq -- especially the travails of John Kerry in 2004. How many seats were lost in the 2002 and 2004 elections because of a Member's anti-invasion vote? And how many seats were lost because of a Member's PRO-invasion vote?
I think this may be an urban myth that has developed as a result of the overwhelming FEAR and DREAD that the Congressional Democrats have of Karl Rove's negative advertising abilities, and not, in fact, a reflection of reality as it has unfolded. In other words, such wholesale conversion of a threatened possibility of negative consequences for an anti-invasion Iraq vote, into an allegedly documented history of negative post-Iraq-vote consequences may be one of the largest stumbling blocks we have to overcome in order to transform the mindset of the Democrats in Congress as they now confront the same sort of an allegedly-looming threat attached to any vote to prevent or halt an unprovoked and violent United States attack on Iran.
ender said...
ReplyDeleteWell there you have it. Time for all the Ford Excursion driving Cons to head down to the recruiter. It would be hysterical if it wasn't so disgusting.
And to think, we could have had Bush's fraternal twin for president instead of George himself. The "this is my brother George and this is my other brother George" syndrome. :)
ender said...
ReplyDelete"Could one of you brother wingnuts please convince Bart to go to his garage, get a shovel, head to the airport, buy a ticket to Iraq and go and dig up Saddam's goddamned fucking WMDs(that no one on earth can seem to find) so we can be done with this insanity once and for all? Please I am begging you. He can help your cause. He has a good nose - he can sniff'em out of their holes."
One has to wonder as to why, if there truly are documents proving that there are WMD's, that George Bush and the rest of the crew up there aren't yelling at the top of their lungs that they were right all along. Poll numbers being stuck in the thirties and all.
But if you notice, Bart did correct his post from making the claim that some or all of the WMD's "WERE" moved to Syria before the war-to- they "COULD" have been moved there
One also has to wonder what we were doing with all of that wonderful satellite imagry we are capable of that we wouldn't have noticed a huge convoy of trucks moving towards Syria just before the war started. I can just about guarantee that every available image was being closely scrutinized during that time period and probably for some time before to eliminate any surprises when we launched our attack.
But alas, the only images presented were of trucks parked at suspected WMD sites by Powell at his U.N. briefing. :)
LOL Ender
ReplyDelete1:15 post of "anonymous":
ReplyDeleteThis is speculation? Do you have any reason to think this is true?
Are you in government?
If you think this is accurate information, how did Iran get the nukes? They developed them by themselves or were given them by the Russians?
Also, why would nobody in the entire world be saying Iran already has nukes? If you know, why wouldn't our government?
Thanks.
David Shaughnessy...
ReplyDeleteNo, unfortunately, the problem is rather like that in the story of the boy who cried wolf. Since all of Bush's fear-mongering rhetoric regarding Iraq has proved false, (and I didn't believe it in the first place...there was ample discussion of the dubiousness of Bush's accusations against Iraq before the war...it just didn't get much media play),we must necessarily react with skepticism to his similar rhetoric about Iran. The danger, as has been pointed out, is that Bush has poisoned the well: where we formerly assumed a President would not lie or exaggerate about the threat posed to us by another foreign power--itself probably a naive assumption--we now have to assume, with THIS President, at least, that until proven otherwise, anything he says is false.
I still wonder why, if Saddam, against all available evidence, actually had stores of active WMD up to the time we attacked, and if those WMD were intended to harm US, why he didn't use them to defend himself against our invasion? What point is there in expending time, money, and secrecy on a massive program of weapons building if, in the clinch--and there is no greater clinch than when YOUR country is about to be attacked--if, in the clinch you do not break out those weapons and use them. It couldn't be because Saddam was afraid to reveal he actually had them...after all, we were attacking on the premise he DID have them! It couldn't be to feign innocence, because after your country is invaded and you are deposed from power, possibly killed and at least (eventually) imprisoned, the issue of your innocence will be moot.
And, really, all this amounts to is a search for ANYTHING, no matter how trivial, which can be used to justify Bush's criminal invasion and lies. It's rather like a police search force tearing a house down to its foundation,looking for the drugs and drug laboratory alleged to have been there, and which allegations resulted in the arrest and imprisonment of the house's occupants. In such a case, to find NO drugs or evidence of their presence would be to know one has destroyed the life of a guiltless party, (at least guiltless with regard to the charges levied against him). So, in such a case, to find a folded up old ZigZag paper stuffed into a crevice in the basement wall will suffice for the desperate police to shout, "We found the drug evidence!" Then, all can sleep peacefully, knowing the dangerous criminal sentenced to years in prison is surely the criminal mastermind he was accused of being...after all, a cigarette paper was found hidden in his basement!
Pathetic.
Oh, dear. Sen. Lugar is suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome, and so is Sen. Hagel.
ReplyDeleteMany of of military experts - who think an attack on Iran insane - are afflicted as well.
So are are British allies. It's an epedimic. Thankfully, David S. and Bart are still thinking clearly on this issue.
David, let's assume for the moment that military force is the best option viz a viz Iran. Now we have to deal with the issue of the competency of the Bush administration wielding it. And I don't mean just the delivery of the bombs but all the fallout (no pun intended) afterward.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't that thought give you a wee bit of pause?
From david shaughnessy at 8:27AM:
ReplyDelete"You cannot even conceive of the possibility that just because using military force in Iraq was wrong, that doesn't necessarily mean that using military force in Iran in automatically wrong. Iran is not Iraq."
I for one agree with this on both counts, as do I suspect many others who comment here and read these threads.
Speaking solely for myself, the problem isn't so much that I think use of military force against Iranian targets is always 'wrong', per se. Indeed, should we or our allies come under attack (whether it be conventional or nuclear) from Iran, military response is not only proper and justified, but vital.
The difficulty here is that the Bush Administration is sounding the war-drums and making only pro-forma diplomatic moves, all the while their supporters and proxies are making noise over Pentagon contingency plans and encouraging the meme that "Iran MUST be bombed before they get the bomb!" Experts in the field are alternatively derided, side-lined or their testimony disputed on ideological grounds.
The biggest problem is the Bush Administration itself and the current Congressional leadership; the former has demonstrated neither competence in either policymaking or implementation nor the ability to learn from past errors (no matter how glaring), while the latter has abdicated all responsibility for oversight or inquiry. In such an environment, ideologues flourish and press the government and military onto courses of action that range from the ill-adivsed to the obviously-disasterous (be it irresponsible tax cuts, Medicare-D, the invasion of Iraq, etc.).
The notion that this is a "government for the people, by the people, of the people" appears an empty sentiment in light of all this. Is it any wonder that, after six years of this madness, any policy or position coming from the White House is met with immediate distain or outright dismissal?
David continues:
"You dismiss the threat posed by the Islamofascists -- Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda and those who would see us dead and our civilization destroyed -- because you hate our president so much."
Actually, David, I have yet to hear or read a single comment where anyone expresses common cause with Bin Laden or his ilk. And the threat the Al Qaeda network and its off-shoots pose to our 'culture', viewed seriously and objectively, is several orders of magnitude below that posed by a resurgence of Black Death or Spanish Influenza.
Before you start waving "9/11" in my face, let me point out (again) I live in New York City and, but for a small quirk in my morning schedule, would have been in Tower Two when those planes hit. Additionally I have studied internataional terrorism and its methods since April 19, 1995 (I need not explain the importance of that date, do I?). I have witnessed first hand the damage terrorists can accomplish.
That said, I also recognize that such attacks (contrary to popular media) are neither quick to formulate or easy to execute. Terrorism's power is derived more from the disquiet it introduces into the public's confidence in their government's ability to protect them; the actual damage they accomplish is often a side-issue.
This has been stated on these comment threads, often and eloquently by others; by that measure, the Bush Administration's response against Al Qaeda has been frustratingly counter-productive, made all the moreso by their failing to actually comprehend the nature of the enemy and adjust their responses accordingly. The ongoing debate over the intelligence used to justify the Iraq invasion doesn't help matters, nor does the 'Islamofascist' nomenclature that's becoming common phrasing. Bin Laden is, if anything, a Islamic Fundamentalist in the vein of Christian Reconstructionists or Denominationalists.
Are you seriously prepared to take that line of thinking to its logical outcomes?
David concludes:
"That is counterproductive to the interests of the United States. I urge you to step back and think of what is best for the country, not what is worst for George Bush."
And if the course of action chosen by President Bush *is* what is worst for the country? What then?
Unlike many on the right side of the isle and our resident contrarians, the majority of the commentators here seem able to grasp that President Bush is not the be-all-and-end-all of either our country nor the institution of the Presidency. He has destroyed his own creditability and standing, doing enormous collateral damage to both our nation's own standing and the Office he serves; sadly, he still has 2 and a half years left to his term, and lame duck or not, he is in a position to do still greater damage NOW, as apposed to presently-non-existant Iranian nuclear weapons or still-unverified North Korean ones.
Are the latter a source of concern? Absolutely. No-one here denies this.
Are they a decent reason to initiate military action against either country? I have yet to read a single intelligible argument for that course of action that takes into account all possible outcomes and *still* appears the less bad option.
Call this "Bush Derangement Syndrome" if you wish. The sad reality is that President George W Bush will, short of some dramatic political turnaround, remain in office until January 2009. It is his Administration that has made these mistakes and created this mess.
Tell me again how anything this Administration has suggested or advocates is 'good' for the country?
and I would hope that we don't take oppositional stances only to thwart him.
ReplyDeleteFair enough. Point conceded.
From Bart at 11:40PM:
ReplyDelete"Where in my post did I say that Cole stated anything? I stated that Cole made an attempt at a translation which undermined his own argument."
Then please don't misrepresent what they said or what they didn't say.
Bart continues:
"In case you didn't know, Cole is an apologist for Arab terrorists and Saddam of long standing."
Odd. Reading both Professor Cole's CV and weblog show him to be a historian and linguist, with an emphasis in the modern Middle East, South Asia, and Islamic Studies, and a fairly long list of publications on the subjects.
Meaning he understands the complexities and history of the region in question better than pretty much anyone else here. None of his postings show any indication he makes common cause with either Hussein or any of the many Islamic organizations or networks that engage in terrorism, nor that he acts as an 'apologist' on their behalf.
Bart continues:
"Cole claimed that this document was actually some sort of an APB by the Iraqi Intelligence Service to arrest Zarqawi.
"In the final post in response to this blog by Cole, I asked him how this could be an APB by the IIs if the document was and internal memo of the Feyedeen Saddam militia and did not mention anything about arresting Zarqawi?
"Posts on Cole's blog actually have to be approved by Cole before they are posted. He read my post and put it on the blog, but declined to answer my questions. Basically, he was making up utter crap and got called on it."
Or he, like many others, allowed your question but chose not respond to it, having other things to do with his time. You really should guard against assigning ill motives to people who decide you not to respond to your every word.
Additionally, if I recall correctly the Feyedeen Saddam was a semi-autonomous paramilitary unit tied to the Iraqi Order-of-Battle, though on the Republican Guard side rather than the regular army. As such, its perfectly logical they would be the receipients of internal intelligence memos like this one.
Bart continues:
"OK, I'll call this yahoo with tenure a "professor" as soon as you call Mr. Bush President."
If you've actually been reading my many responses here and in other threads, you'd note I'm among the few who do so, just as I refer to all members of the Administration by their titles.
But then, that presupposes you actually *read* them in the first place, doesn't it?
Bart continues:
"Dude, I am not going to keep reposting the same links over and over. Check out pre war documents at Free Republic, IraqThe Model, Powerline, Captain's Quarters and Ray Robinson."
I have, and I have yet to see a serious expert in the language among them. As to your point there hasn't been a rebuttal of their 'translations' from the left-side of the dial, could it be we're waiting to hear from the experts before passing judgment?
My original question remains: how exactly are these sites getting ahold of these reportedly sensitive documents in the first place?
Bart continues at 11:49PM:
"Hardly. The military and CIA did verify the authenticity of the released tapes of Saddam's 1995 staff meetings, which include Kamel's report to Saddam that Iraq had lied to the UN about the extent of its WMD and WMD supplies, especially its chemical and biological WMD."
Great. That's what happened in 1995, eight years before the invasion ordered by President Bush.
So what? The Duelfer Report deals with what was found (and more importantly what *wasn't*) on the ground and with available evidence after intensive investigation. Add to that Saddam's own testimony presently and the lack of evidence to the contrary.
Could some materials have been moved across the border? Certainly. Is this anything more than uninformed and idle speculation at this point. Yes.
I wouldn't hold my breath, though.
From david shaughnessy at 9:47AM:
ReplyDelete"No, I don't agree. The Isalmofacsists pose the greatest threat to the United States and the world today."
David, this isn't the Mongol Hordes of old we're talking about. This is a very loose, very diffuse network of fellow travellers. Many (mostly) hold to a terribly regressive and poorly sourced version Islam. They have been radicalized by a host of reasons (some political, some economic, some cultural, some historical).
However, they possess (at least so far as we know) neither the means nor the numbers to 'overthrow' Western civilization. They can attack us certainly, and do so in frightenly inventive ways that can do inflict horrific damage and casualties.
The United States didn't cease to be united on or after 9/11. Our Constitution (while badly battered by recent decisions of the current Administration) remains the law of the land. The United States has survived this attack as it has survived all others. Even if Al Qaeda or another network manage to detonate an Alpha Unit in downtown New York next time, I believe the US would survive.
David continues:
"Hopefully, this threat will diminish (I'll get to that in the next point), but I simply cannot understand how one can discount an unprovoked on American soil killing 3,000 American civilians,"
Given I very nearly was casualty #3001 in that attack, I absolutely do NOT discount the danger posed by Al Qaeda or its off-shoots. But I recognize their limitations and choose to work from a realistic appraisal of their capabilities, rather than run about in circles like Chicken Little.
David continues:
"I disagree. I realize the term Islamofacist raises hackles because it has evidently been adopted by FOX-NEWS. But I think it perfectly describes the dangerous phenomenon we confront and I will continue to use it."
That's your choice. And I think it raises hackles because its such a butchery of the English language and confuses rather than clarifies.
"Fundamentalist Christians do not advocate terrorism and the imposition of a totalitarian theocracy, but if such a group ever emerges I would call them what they are: Christofacsists."
Then you should attend a bit more carefully the likes of Dobson, Robertson, La Haye, Falwell, Kennedy, and the rest of circus President Bush gets many of his marching orders from. While its true they aren't advocating an overt take-over of the government (no need to as they're already in there) or terrorism against their 'satanic' enemies, their tendency towards eliminationalist rehtoric certainly don't mark them as 'moderate'. I need not mention the many clinic bombings of the past 20+ years or physical attacks (and in some instances, actual murder) of gay and lesbians, or how none of the leading lights of the Christian Right have yet to condemn these actions, do I?
Ender, arne, everyone:
ReplyDeleteHowever much we may wish otherwise, David Shaughnessy does make a relevant point at 9:47AM:
"The fact is, as bad as Bush is, he is our only president. We must find a way to live with him until he isn't."
This is the crux of the problem, isn't it? It would be nice if we could remove President Bush by a simple vote of 'no confidence' or impeach him. Those options aren't on the table.
David may be a little fixated on the tendency of commentators to express their (sometimes quite personal) displeasure with the President. Personally I'm all for hearing everyone's opinion, no matter how colorful, as its often balanced by passionate and well-thought critiques of the Administration's latest mis-step.
So, let David have his opinions and we'll all continue as we have so far. Fair?
"The Isalmofacsists pose the greatest threat to the United States and the world today."
ReplyDeleteNO, the use of Fear and Hate by the Bush-Nero Regime is our greatest threat. More people were killed in one day at Gettysburg than on 9/11. Bush is turning this country into a bunch of bedwetters who much follow his leadership in order to survive. Pathetic.
al Qaeda has no more chance of destroying this country than I do of becoming President
Calgacus said...
ReplyDeleteBart: The admissions of the head of Saddam's WMD program to Saddam himself is far better evidence of the actual state of affairs than Duelfer's speculation without evidence.
It is comical, truly Bartworthy, to bring this up at this late date as evidence of the existence of WMD, rather than the opposite. For Hussein Kamel had not the slightest reason to lie, and everything he said has checked out. And the full interview was leaked and released shortly before the war and in it Kamel said all these secret WMDs were destroyed long ago!
My friend, Kamal had to be lying at one of these two times - when he was taped telling Saddam that his WMD and WMD programs were still there OR a few months later when he "defected" and told the Coalition that these same WMD and WMD programs were destroyed four years before. These statements cannot both be true.
If you believe that he is lying to Saddam, then you also have to believe that Kamal himself destroyed Saddam's prized WMD and somehow kept that information from Saddam for years in one of the most intrusive police states in the world.
Apart from this taped admission, what makes me suspicious of Kamal's statements after he "defected" to the coaltion is that he soon after voluntarily returned to Iraq. That says to me that Kamal was sent to the Coalition with disinformation about the WMD and expected to be welcomed back to Iraq. However, Saddam preserved Kamal's cover as a "defector" by murdering him after he returned to Iraq.
From ender at 11:28AM:
ReplyDelete" You may see this discussion about potentially preemptively nuking a sovereign nation as a high minded intellectual pursuit but I see it for what it is...more BS discussion about yet another insane neo-con proposition."
No, I see it as the latest disaster-in-the-making from the Bush Administration. I also recognize that short of a small miracle it looks like we'll be at war with Iran (and gods know who else) before the year's end, and that there's really little that we can do to stop it.
That said, I see no harm in trying to engage David and other commentators here on their positions in the meantime.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 11:40PM: "Cole claimed that this document was actually some sort of an APB by the Iraqi Intelligence Service to arrest Zarqawi.
"In the final post in response to this blog by Cole, I asked him how this could be an APB by the IIs if the document was and internal memo of the Feyedeen Saddam militia and did not mention anything about arresting Zarqawi?
"Posts on Cole's blog actually have to be approved by Cole before they are posted. He read my post and put it on the blog, but declined to answer my questions. Basically, he was making up utter crap and got called on it."
Or he, like many others, allowed your question but chose not respond to it, having other things to do with his time. You really should guard against assigning ill motives to people who decide you not to respond to your every word.
Given that you also cannot answer my questions, I think I have made my point.
Additionally, if I recall correctly the Feyedeen Saddam was a semi-autonomous paramilitary unit tied to the Iraqi Order-of-Battle, though on the Republican Guard side rather than the regular army. As such, its perfectly logical they would be the receipients of internal intelligence memos like this one.
Let me attempt to clarify this for you again.
The Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS or Mukaharabat) is not part of the military. It is the equivalent of the KGB.
The Feyedeen Saddam is a militia of Saddam loyalists formed to conduct terrorist operations. There is no command connection between the IIS and the Feyedeen Saddam gang of which I have ever read.
The memo noting al Qeada recruitment in Iraq was an internal Feyedeen Saddam memo from a chief to an underling within that militia. IIS memos are stamped with an Eagle on the top.
Thus, my question to Cole as to why he is claiming that this Feyedeen memo is actually an IIS memo. It is not and Cole made that up.
Bart continues: "OK, I'll call this yahoo with tenure a "professor" as soon as you call Mr. Bush President."
If you've actually been reading my many responses here and in other threads, you'd note I'm among the few who do so, just as I refer to all members of the Administration by their titles.
But then, that presupposes you actually *read* them in the first place, doesn't it?
Forgive me for not reading all of your posts here. I simply do not have the time. If one of Glenn's posts is of interest, I will post a response. That usually generates some replies to my response. I then come back occasionally and run a search for my name to make a good faith attempt to respond to the questions or arguments directed towards me. I don't usually read every post here.
Bart: "Hardly. The military and CIA did verify the authenticity of the released tapes of Saddam's 1995 staff meetings, which include Kamel's report to Saddam that Iraq had lied to the UN about the extent of its WMD and WMD supplies, especially its chemical and biological WMD."
Great. That's what happened in 1995, eight years before the invasion ordered by President Bush.
I agree. This is not definitive evidence that the WMD and WMD in existence in 1995 were still in existence in 2003. However, it does indicate that Duelfer's speculations that the WMD had all been destroyed in 1991 and 1992 is simply wrong.
So what? The Duelfer Report deals with what was found (and more importantly what *wasn't*) on the ground and with available evidence after intensive investigation.
If Duelfer left his report with what he could prove, I would have no problem with it. However, Duelfer went on to speculate without any witnesses or physical or documentary evidence that Saddam destroyed his WMD in 1991 and 1992 and then advanced that speculation as some sort of proven fact. He should be called on that error when contrary evidence arises.
eyes wide open said ....
ReplyDelete"This is speculation? Do you have any reason to think this is true? Are you in the government?"
No, I'm not in the government, I'm just a dope with a keyboard who likes to ask "What's the worst that could happen?" and "How are these idiots trying to get me killed today?" and "Are these people stupid, or stupid and dangerous?"
It's purely my own speculation that Iran got plans from A Q Khan's network, components from looted Soviet weapons, and put everything together in a bunker that was safe from prying eyes and airborne munitions.
The point being the danger of thinking in terms of the last conflict. While the American press and public have been learning lessons from the run-up to the Iraq invasion, I ask "What if Iran is playing a different game?" What if America expects a quarterback sneak from Bush, while Iran is preparing a bean-ball. Or a tar baby. Or Iran is waiting until we get all four limbs stuck in the tar baby before they jump out of the briar patch and kick us in the nuts. Really hard.
Perhaps the neocons are not as smart as they think they are. If they are really concerned about Iran's nuclear ambitions as they claim to be, they would be looking for ways to entice Iran to abandon those ambitions. Any barefoot farmer will tell you that the right carrot gets results faster than the biggest stick. And every mule gets hungry.
Let me put this into terms even the Freepers can understand. If I saw the school bully work over a skinny kid in the 6th grade class, and I suspected that I was the next target on his list, I'd adjust my behavior and lure him into a trap. Maybe I'd take a few smacks while my friends were breaking into his locker and pissing on his books.
It's a very dangerous game being played by Bushco. Their last play lost us 2,500 soldiers and lost Iraq some 30,000 lives. Let's not add a half a million Iranians and 3 million Israelis to the casualty lists. I don't think our policy should be guided by Israel's needs, but let's not get any more of them killed. We can't trust Iran's leadership to have a decent regard for innocent Jewish lives, but I hold my America to a higher standard.
Do we think Bushco is smart enough to recognize that what worked on Tuesday might make matters worse on Thursday? Iraq didn't have A Q Khan and Hezzballah for playmates, Iraq didn't have a leadership composed of radical fundamentalists, Iraq didn't have the advantage of seeing Bushco in action. Smart men learn from their mistakes. Wise men learn from others' mistakes. When we turn our gaze to Washington, do we see smart men, or wise men, or some other kind of men? We know they're very religious.
And remember that the goal of all religious nutjobs is to get as many of us killed as violently as possible.
dopey-o
From Bart at 11:58AM:
ReplyDelete"Given that you also cannot answer my questions, I think I have made my point."
If you're referring to why Professor Cole attributed the memo in question to the Mukaharabat rather than the Feyedeen Saddam, as the Pentagon apparently had, you're right. I can't answer as I can't translate the original.
I would point out however that Professor Cole was simply linking to a news item from Ireland On-Line, and made no mention of attempting the translation himself. Its not beyond the bounds of possibility that the translation IOL was depending upon was a poor or mistaken effort.
I grant Professor Cole should perhaps be more careful about what he links to, but then the same could be said for certain members of the Bush Administration when they try 'linking' certain parties to Al Qaeda, couldn't it?
Using this standards of evidence, you would be dismissing about 90% of the Bush Administration's claims on, well, everything under the sun as well as Professor Cole.
Bart continues:
"There is no command connection between the IIS and the Feyedeen Saddam gang of which I have ever read."
And thus it is beyond the bounds of reason that the IIS would have lines of communication (not command) to the Feyedeen Saddam, particularly concerning enemies of the state like al-Zarqawi?
As to the absent letterhead, one would think basic tradecraft calls for any intelligence service worth its salt to be circumspect about circulating data it passes around out-of-house (particularly to theoretically deniable assets like the Feyedeen)? A tad convuloted I suppose, but no moreso than the notion of Iran developing a nuke then giving it to a terrorist network for delivery into the continental US.
Bart continues:
"Forgive me for not reading all of your posts here. I simply do not have the time."
Well, at least you're honest.
Bart continues:
"However, it does indicate that Duelfer's speculations that the WMD had all been destroyed in 1991 and 1992 is simply wrong."
I grant the Duelfer Report makes some broad speculation in this regard. The 1995 conversation however is not proof positive for or against the Report's conclusions; indeed, I think Kamel was desperate to save his own skin that he may well have been stringing Hussein along.
Additionally I believe it merely asserted available evidence strongly suggested the majority of Iraq's stocks of precursors and chemical materials had been destroyed or otherwise rendered useless shortly after the first Gulf War. There remained the facilities and newly acquired materials, but these were not in any working shape at the time of the invasion.
Yes, this is a fine point, and hardly conclusive. Doubtless more 'evidence' will surface in the future, equally circumstantial and inconclusive.
Time to move on I think.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThe NYT and Weekly Standard were given a 1997 Iraqi intelligence memo which describes the al Qaeda propaganda organizations with which Iraq was coordinating anti-Saudi propaganda. Among those propagandists described in the IIS memo were Committee for Defense of Legitimate Rights (CDLR) based in London and its founder Dr. Muhammad Abdallah al-Massari.
ReplyDelete> http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/011/990ieqmb.asp?pg=2
What makes this much more interesting is that Massari is now telling the London Times that:
"Saddam had joined forces with al Qaeda prior to the war. Al-Massari says that Saddam established contact with the “Arab Afghans” who fled Afghanistan to northern Iraq in 2001 and that he funded their relocation to Iraq under the condition that they would not seek to undermine his regime. Upon their arrival, these al Qaeda terrorists were put in contact with Iraqi army personnel, who armed and funded them."
> http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22055
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2058597_3,00.html
Massari's version of events is disputed by others in the al Insar Islam movement in Iraq. However, it does comport with what the SF and Kurds found when they overran the al Insar / al Qaeda camp along the Iranian border during Operation Viking Hammer as described by the book "Masters of Chaos" by Linda Robinson.
yankeependragon:
ReplyDeleteBart continues: "There is no command connection between the IIS and the Feyedeen Saddam gang of which I have ever read."
And thus it is beyond the bounds of reason that the IIS would have lines of communication (not command) to the Feyedeen Saddam, particularly concerning enemies of the state like al-Zarqawi?
The Feyedeen Saddam internal memo makes no mention of the IIS or an IIS report. Only Cole makes this allegation, which was then widely parroted across the leftist blogosphere without question.
The translations of the Feyedeen Saddam internal memo and several IIS memos do not indicate that al Qaeda or Zarqawi are considered to be "enemies of the state." Rather, several IIS memos describe ongoing contacts with al Qaeda for a variety of purposes from terror to propaganda.
This is speculation on my part, but Iraqi contacts with al Qaeda and other terrorist groups were probably considered to be high level state secrets because of the ongoing UN sanctions and Coalition ceasefire. To date, references to al Qaeda have been limited to IIS top secret memos.
al Qeada probably came to the attention of the Feyedeen Saddam when al Qaeda started recruiting Sunni Iraqis for the fight in Afghanistan at the same time Feyedeen was recruiting in the same population.
Bart continues: "However, [the Kamal admission on the taped Saddam staff meeting] does indicate that Duelfer's speculations that the WMD had all been destroyed in 1991 and 1992 is simply wrong."
I grant the Duelfer Report makes some broad speculation in this regard. The 1995 conversation however is not proof positive for or against the Report's conclusions; indeed, I think Kamel was desperate to save his own skin that he may well have been stringing Hussein along.
I simply cannot imagine any advantage to Kamal in unilaterally destroying Iraqi WMD without Saddam's knowledge or permission. This is a state which grinds up enemies of the state in industrial paper shredders for far less.
Additionally I believe it merely asserted available evidence strongly suggested the majority of Iraq's stocks of precursors and chemical materials had been destroyed or otherwise rendered useless shortly after the first Gulf War.
I have seen no such evidence in the Duelfer report. That is my problem with Duelfer's speculation concerning destruction of Saddam's WMD. Duelfer made this speculation as a statement of fact and allowed the press to repeat his statement ad nauseum as a categorical fact. Indeed, this statement is one of the pillar's of the "Bush Lied" slander.
David Shaughnessy said...
ReplyDelete"I used to think that Bush Derangement Syndrome was a myth and the only one who truly suffered from it was George W. Bush himself. I'm not so sure anymore. In my opinion, many of the people here have become so embittered by the Bush Administration that they cannot think clearly. Your hatred for Bush is consuming you and blinding you."
Where did you get your degree in psychiatry David? Or is it that you think everyone else is nuts just because they disagree with you? Or mabe it's worse, mabe the whole world is out of step but you David.
"There are serious debates to be had about the grave threats facing the country and the world, but those debates will go nowhere so long as people are distorted by reactionary polarization and hold the view that if Bush is for it then I am against it."
I am against what Bush is for and against Bush for being Bush which of course is part of the reason for what Bush is for. So psychoanalize that.
You cannot even conceive of the possibility that just because using military force in Iraq was wrong, that doesn't necessarily mean that using military force in Iran in automatically wrong.
No it isn't automatically wrong but it is wrong.
"You dismiss the threat posed by the Islamofascists -- Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda and those who would see us dead and our civilization destroyed"
I don't dismiss the threat posed by Osama bin Laden, he attacked us. Bush dismissed the threat when he let him escape when we had him cornered in the Tora Bora mountains because he couldn't wait to pull troops to start the war in Iraq.
"-- because you hate our president so much. That is counterproductive to the interests of the United States. I urge you to step back and think of what is best for the country, not what is worst for George Bush."
What is counterproductive to the interests of the United States is George Bush and the arrogant neo-cons who told everyone we couldn't afford to have the next smoking gun be a mushroom cloud. Who told the American people that Saddam was an eminent threat and possessed WMD's, and lie after lie after lie.
All of the current estimates are that it will be years before Iran is able to produce an A-bomb. The consequences of bombing Iran, or even more foolishly trying to invade them with troops we don't have, will be felt immediately.
Iran while they currently do not have the ability to make the bomb do have the capability to make our lives infinitely more difficult in Iraq where we are already in trouble. They have the ability to motivate the OPEC nations to initiate another oil embargo against us after we have engaged in yet another warrantless aggressive attack against yet another sovereign nation that has done nothing to us. We are quickly becoming the rogue nation that we accuse others of being.
And why? Because someday Iran might develop the A bomb? In reality, in spite of their current presidents outrageous statements, what are they going to do with the bomb once they have it? We have enough nukes to turn their whole country into a green glassine parking lot if they even thought about using one. Not that I am for them developing the bomb because I'm not. I'm just against any more foolish military adventures that do more harm than good. When and if the rest of the world is convinced that Iran poses a threat and is willing to join in action with us, then we should act, but not until. Europe and Iran's Arab neighbors are a lot closer to Iran and would be in much more danger than we will be. Remember the real coalition that George's father built in the first Iraq war? When we have that I will support taking action, not until.
bart said:
ReplyDeleteYou will notice that Mr. Duelfer offered not a shred of physical or documentary evidence that Saddam actually destroyed his WMD in 1991 and 1992. We have taken years and involved hundreds of personnel in destroying our chemical munitions. Yet, Duelfer could offer no one who actually observed nevertheless participated in this alleged destruction.
Instead, as you observed, Mr. Duelfer appears to be relying entirely upon the word of one Hussein Kamal, Saddam's son in law and WMD chief. This is the same Kamal who was recently heard in a recording of an 1995 staff meeting telling Saddam that Iraq had lied to the UN and had hidden the extent of its WMD supplies and programs.
Ooops! So much for the Duelfer theory...
What mendacious drivel.
Let me introduce you to some basic information about Iraq and WMDs. It is a simple, incontrovertible fact that the Iraqis unilaterally destroyed huge quantities of their unconventional weapons stockpiles in June and July of 1991, mostly prior to the arrival of UNSCOM. UNSCOM established through documentary records, soil sampling and other methods that Iraq had engaged in the large-scale destruction of virtually every class of agent, weapon and precursor that it was known to have created. What couldn't be verified by UNSCOM and UNMOVIC, thus often leading to the designation "unaccounted for" (a technical term flagrantly, grossly, deliberately and repeatedly misrepresented by the Bush Administration), is the precise quantities destroyed.
Duelfer appears to be relying entirely on Hussein Kamel's testimony? Do you have a shred of evidence for that laughable (and demonstrably false) claim? Do you know the first thing about this subject?
This is the same Kamal who was recently heard in a recording of an 1995 staff meeting telling Saddam that Iraq had lied to the UN and had hidden the extent of its WMD supplies and programs.
Simply amazing how the same techniques of deception get used over and over and over again. Let's clarify: "the extent of its WMD supplies and programmes" prior to 1991. And that's supposed to be news? Kamel testified to exactly that in his 1995 UNSCOM interview.
My friend, Kamal had to be lying at one of these two times - when he was taped telling Saddam that his WMD and WMD programs were still there OR a few months later when he "defected" and told the Coalition that these same WMD and WMD programs were destroyed four years before. These statements cannot both be true.
Utter nonsense. There is no contradiction, because he was not telling Saddam that his WMDs and WMD programmes "were still there" (a completely implausible notion anyway). See above.
Oops! So much for your Duelfer theory.
So much for "lies" about Iraqi WMD.
I'm trying to restrain my mirth. When it came to Iraq and WMDs, the Bush Administration engaged in lies, distortions, exaggerations, misrepresentations, crucial omissions and deliberate duplicity on a simply massive scale. Virtually every single statement on the subject by an Administration official prior to the war involved a deception of some kind or other. A vast number of these deceptions had nothing whatsoever to do with intelligence, bad or otherwise.
Care to debate the subject of the "Bush Lied slander" further?
David Shaughnessy said...
ReplyDelete"I am making an observation about certain people posting here on this blog who are so consumed with hatred for Goerge W. Bush that they are losing their judgment and perspective. If you are one of those people, I am sorry for you."
In other words you are just expressing a personal opinion, not a professional diagnoses since you have no degree. Well hell Dave everybody is doing that and I got news for ya, yours ain't any more important than anyone elses.
"But please do not assume that you represent "the whole world." You don't."
Oh I've never done that.
"Most people -- even those disgusted by the Bush Administration -- remember that the interests of the United States transcend one's feelings about George W. Bush, either for him or against him. It is those sensible, reasonable people who will help this country this presidency, not the hysterics."
Most people Dave? Have you looked at the poll numbers. The Prez has been stuck in the 30's for quite a while. That kinda puts you in the minority regardless of your protestations otherwise.