More often than not, the chosen new enemies are not terrorists or foreign threats, but Americans who are perceived to have politically damaged the Commander-in-Chief in some way -- which makes them traitorous and worthy of punishment with no limits. They casually toss around charges of treason at anyone who acts against The President, knowing exactly what the punishment for treason is. Enraged demands for the arrest and imprisonment of their political enemies are a staple of their political dialogue, and there is no measure which can be undertaken by the government in the name of attacking and punishing The Enemies - both foreign and domestic - which are too extreme for them. If anything, their criticisms of the administration are typically confined to charges that its attacks on The Enemies are not aggressive or extreme enough.
This weekend, not only Mary McCarthy -- but anyone connected to her -- happened to be the ones subjected to this deranged lynch mob rage, but almost anyone who has done anything to politically embarrass the President has triggered the same emotional tidal waves. If you can stomach it, listen to the permanently enraged warrior Mark Levin explain in National Review how John Kerry's comments this weekend in defense of McCarthy show that he is on the side of Al Qaeda, and -- unlike the brave Levin -- that Kerry is "unfit for command":
Once again John Kerry sides with the enemy. Did I say enemy? Yes. Anyone, like Mary McCarthy, who uses her public trust to undermine the war on terrorism is the enemy. The Washington Post can wrap itself and its source in civil liberties, but the public rightly won't buy it. These prisons in Europe reportedly exist to interrogate and house al Qaeda terrorists. While people may disagree over the war in Iraq, almost nobody disagrees that al-Qaeda must be destroyed. . . . Kerry has demonstrated, once again, why he’s unfit for command.
Meanwhile, Levin's colleague, Andrew McCarthy, who knows nothing about what McCarthy actually did or whether it caused the slightest national security harm (as opposed to political harm to the President), is outraged that she's not in prison:
There are countless questions that arise out of the CIA's dismissal of a prominent intelligence officer, Mary O. McCarthy (no relation), for leaking classified information to the media. But one in particular springs to mind right now: Why isn't she in handcuffs?
McCarthy is also furious that Sandy Berger is not in prison:
Sandy Berger, the former national-security adviser who filched classified information from the national archives and then lied about it to investigators was, appallingly, given the sweetheart deal of the century: a guilty plea to a mere misdemeanor, no jail time, and even the prospect of getting his security clearance back after three years.
And this morning, McCarthy emphasized -- just as he did on Saturday -- that Mary McCarthy's criminal conduct seems to have been aided and abetted by significant portions of the Democratic Party.
Like most Bush followers, leaks are only infuriating to McCarthy when done by Democrats or when they result in political harm to the President. Leaks committed by Bush allies or with the intent to promote the President's political agenda prompt nothing but silence from him, and sometimes even a defense of the leakers, as Andy McCarthy offered for the Franklin/AIPAC leakers. That is because they see even the most extreme and illegal actions by the Bush administration as tantamount to America's interests, such that anyone who opposes those actions is, by definition, acting treasonously, impeding the War on Terror, and deserving of punishment. Those who act in support of those actions -- with leaks, illegality or anything else -- are motivated by the right intentions and their conduct should therefore be overlooked, or defended.
All of this causes Kathryn Jean Lopez to point to McCarthy's article and giddily and cutely observe, as though she were talking about some nighttime soap opera: "Andy looks for handcuffs." Calling for the arrest of their domestic political opponents on grounds of treason is so routine for Bush followers that there is nothing extraordinary to them when they do it. And they don't just routinely call for imprisonment of people who politically harm the President, but they do so with palpable glee; they revel in it.
Here is Powerline on the reporters who broke the NSA story: "Throw 'em in the slammer." Townhall columnist Ben Shapiro: Howard Dean, John Kerry and Al Gore all belong in prison for "sedition." Powerline: Jimmy Carter is "on the other side." Karl Rove says Dick Durbin is on the side of terrorists. Michael Reagan thinks Howard Dean should be hanged. Charles Johnson of LGF said this weekend: the media is helping Iran get the bomb by weakening our country (by reporting on what is going on in Iraq), and are therefore "becoming a major liability in the clash of civilizations," a post which led his readers, needless to say, to spew sentiments about McCarthy and the media such as this:
Law-and order, red-state, non-nuanced, thinking Americans would expect the law to be enforced, the sentence to reflect the treasonous actions of the convicted, and the execution to be public.
The daily rage from Michelle Malkin is almost too deranged, ugly and intense even to chronicle, and the fact that her recent posting of the telephone numbers and e-mail addresses of college student military protestors prompted a slew of extremely disturbed death threats from her readers should surprise exactly nobody. Those sentiments are pervasive and are always lurking near the surface among many Bush followers, which is why calls for imprisonment and execution have become a routine part of their political dialogue. If a political movement is based upon the routine labelling of one's political opponents as traitors and deserving of imprisonment and even death, this is the natural by-product of what is being sown.
And it just goes on and on like this. And the more pronounced their political failures become, the more their frustration and feelings of impotence grow, and the more frequent these sorts of rage-fueled, intensely hateful outbursts become. The fact that their bile seems to be getting progressively more intense and unburdened by limits raises a couple of important points:
(1) When the administration assures everyone that its most extreme and illegal measures -- warrantless eavesdropping, secret torture gulags, lawless detentions, etc. -- are being applied only to the enemies of the U.S. -- i.e., only to al Qaeda and its allies -- isn't there a fairly significant danger that they are using, or will use, the sweeping, broad definitions which are now routinely used for these terms by Bush followers, a definition that encompass not only actual allies of Al Qaeda but those domestic political opponents deemed to give aid and comfort to Al Qaeda by virtue of their political views, to the point of deserving prison?
All of this accumulated rhetoric has to have an effect. The excesses and extremist conduct in which our government now engages has become so commonplace as to be mind-numbing. We detain U.S. citizens and stick them in military prisons with no trial, charges or even access to lawyers. We use torture as an interrogation tool. We use secret, off-the-book Soviet-era gulags that are beyond the reach of the law. We send people to the most repugnant governments to be tortured. And the President has expressly embraced the theory that he has the power to break the law.
There certainly appears to be no limits on what Bush followers will endorse in the name of fighting The Enemies, domestic ones included, sometimes most prominently. And what is so significant about this is that the institutions which previously existed as a safeguard against arbitrary punishment and abuse of power -- things like due process guarantees, Congressional oversight, an adversarial media, whistleblowers -- have all been steadily eroded. The administration has seized the power to arrest people without charges, hold them in secret prisons, use torture to interrogate them, etc. That is all out in the open and prompts defenses of these practices from its followers. That makes the attempt to equate political opposition with criminality and even treason -- one of the most common tactics of the administration and its followers -- all the more dangerous.
(2) How will all of this bubbling rage and hatred and desire to punish political opponents manifest in the event of another terrorist attack? If the foundation is laid now for equating political opposition with treason, and if a single terrorist attack has already led to the panoply of extremist policies (including, likely, some which have not yet been revealed), just fathom what sorts of measures will be considered and advocated in the event of another attack, particularly one with a greater impact than the 9/11 attack.
The people who roll around in this sort of hateful bile on a daily basis, and who endorse truly limitless presidential power, will be in the position to make decisions as to what our country does, what internal and external measures we adopt, what new theories of presidential power we embrace in order to more effectively fight against Our Enemies. That is why it is so pernicious to allow this type of rhetoric to take root and to leave it unchallenged, as well as to permit these radical theories of power to become legitimized -- not so much because of what they have already led to (although that is certainly disturbing enough), but because of what they can lead to, quite realistically, in the near-term future.
With all of the "crimes against America" that they single out, what is always missing is any identification of any actual harm to our national security. What is harmed by these crimes is always the political popularity of the President. But to them, that is the same thing. A weak George Bush means a weak America, so anyone who harms George Bush is harming America and hurting our efforts to fight The Terrorists.
During their glory years of 2002 and 2003, Bush followers became convinced that they were part of a movement that was going to lead America to renewed and profound glory under the heroic leadership of George W. Bush. They become so personally invested in the triumph of that dream. It gave them a feeling of strength and purpose. And now it has all crumbled. It's all been exposed as a sham and fraud. The President is one of the most unpopular and failed presidents we have had in some time, and their views have been rejected, discredited, and are increasingly reviled. And they are extremely angry about this and want vengeance on those they perceive as responsible.
The ever dwindling group of Bush followers has become a highly emotional group, having far more to do with psychological and emotional needs than political beliefs. Anger, hatred, rage and a desire for punishment are what fuels them, and they recognize no limits on what ought to be done to satisfy those cravings.
UPDATE: Digby posted yesterday on the fact that Bush followers are "agitating to criminalize dissent" and compiled additional examples and documentation. As I have pointed out before, there is conventional wisdom that a weakened and unpopular president becames less powerful and less able to pursue extremist policies, but I actually think that in the case of this president, the more weakened and unpopular he becomes, the more desperate he will be to lash out -- in bitterness, with a desire for retribution, and to display strength.
Purging CIA leakers, prosecuting whistle-blowers, imprisoning journalists who publish politically embarrassing revelations -- we are seeing only the incipient symptoms of those efforts.
Once again, everything I was taught about what makes our country great seems to be disappearing before my eyes.
ReplyDeleteWe have to speak the truth. THESE bush cultists are the traitors. They are you know. Why pussy foot around. Yes we have to use the same Traitor word that they use but its the truth.
ReplyDeleteThis new rhetoric of eliminationism is an echo from the dark past of Nazi Europe. We ignore it at our peril.
ReplyDeleteFar too many of our citizens can adopt extremism when their ragefulness is triggered by the likes of Hannity, Limbaugh & Malkin. The risks to the social order of this country arising from the media's proclivity to broadcast the hate speech can scarcely be overstated.
We MUST re-establish the media as a voice of moderation and reason. This can happen only if corporatist power is removed from the equation.
Rage, as in rabid, as in frothy-mouthed fit, as in Rumpelstiltskin....They're the very last to see that THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES. Poor things. One could almost feel sorry for them.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet I have ZERO COMPASSION and ZERO TOLERANCE for the flaming assholes. Imagine that. Rage? RAGE?? I've got some rage for them. I've got some extremely righteous rage. May they CHOKE on theirs!
Peace.
Excellent points all, Glenn. I confess I hadn't thought about what the Movement (as I've come to think of them) would do or advocate after the next major attack. On some level, I simply assumed they would fizzle out once they realize just how *wrong* they are/were on everything.
ReplyDeleteHopefully we won't have to find out otherwise, but I'm not holding much hope in that direction.
phd9 said:
ReplyDeleteOnce again, everything I was taught about what makes our country great seems to be disappearing before my eyes.
Strange phd9. I see what could make this country great appearing before my eyes. Just look at Glenn and everyone else who sees the truth and speaks about it. Why do you think Bushco's support is sinking faster than the Titanic?
Well, wait till bart starts dumping his "copy and paste" talking points into the thread...
ReplyDeleteThen you will see some rage build on lies.
anonymous said:
ReplyDeleteWell, wait till bart starts dumping his "copy and paste" talking points into the thread...
From what I've seen, Bart never stands a chance in here. You guys are much smarter than he is. Also, what I learn from Glenn, and you all, is emotional control.
Which makes me kind of wish I hadn't used the term flaming assholes. Oh well. I'm still learning...
The stress of maintaining their lie-based image is resulting in many different kinds of psychopathology, including some amazing projection.
ReplyDelete>Why do you think Bushco's support is sinking faster than the Titanic?<
ReplyDeleteI know, but it seems to me that we're now having "reasoned debate" over things that in the past wouldn't even be up for discussion. Torture? Secret prisons? People being disappeared without due process?
The fact that we DIDN'T engage in such practices is what made us superior to our enemies.
I'm grateful that I live in a country where I can type these words without fear of retribution (contrast China) but I am afraid that every year the goalposts of freedom are being moved in the direction of repression. And I don't like it one bit!
Good one, Bluememe! I, myself, am always suspicious when they trot out bin Laden. If I were a betting person, I would put money on Load of Crap whenever it happens.
ReplyDeletephd9, I know. These things we discuss are terribly terrible and horrific. The world is in crisis, for sure, in large part because of us. All I can say is that today I am cautiously optimistic.
ReplyDeleteTomorrow, though, I may be singing a different song and need a boost myself.
Glenn, you're right on as usual. The hate fest is just starting to ramp up. This next election is going to be all about the Enemies. Political and otherwise. Mexicans and Muslims, lefties and appeasers, any dissenters will be demonized. Rove's 'demotion' puts him in charge of the Republican mud-slinging hate mongering political machine, as well as distances him from the Pres if the deserved indictment ever comes. Hold on to your hats and umbrellas ladies and gentlemen the shitstorm is about to begin. The only hope is continued illumination and active pushback by folks like us. The boy who cried wolf factor is starting to come to pass. Speak the truth to your Bushie friends and co-workers, they may be more receptive than you would think. The lies and exploitation are becoming more and more obvious. And if they need an example of how they're being manipulated ask them why the Republican majority House and Senate have taken absolutely no action to protect the sanctity of marriage and family by outlawing gay marriage.
ReplyDeleteThat Michael Ledeen piece Glenn links to is from 2004, and involves Ledeen's "conversation" with the deceased James Jesus Angleton (onetime Associate Deputy Director of Operations for Counterintelligence at CIA). Just lookie, with the NSA warrantless wiretap issue in mind, at why Ledeen and the spirit of Angleton think Larry Franklin and AIPAC might be innocent:
ReplyDeleteML: If you were a serious journalist working on this story, what questions would you be asking?
JJA: Well, first of all I'd be trying to find out whether the wiretap stories are true, because that would be an indicator of the seriousness of the investigation. If the bureau wants to listen to somebody's telephone conversations, they need explicit permission from a special court, and for the court to approve a wiretap, or whatever the electronic equivalent is nowadays (you'd be amazed how low-tech life is around here, confound it!), the bureau has to provide reasonable grounds to believe a crime has been committed, or is about to be committed.
ML: So if there were such approval, it would give weight to the leaks?
JJA: Yes. Conversely, if there were no such approval, it would suggest that they don't have much of a case. I'd be interested in knowing specifically how many wiretaps were approved or rejected. For example, I'd be quite astonished if a court approved a wiretap of AIPAC — which, according to the stories, is the alleged intermediary of the "classified information" Franklin is supposed to have passed to the Israelis.
Silly, silly rabbits. They don't need no reasonable grounds, no steenkin warrants, or any darn judges to approve nothin'. There is a war on, after all, and if the President does it, it is legal. Geez, Ledeen, get with the program.
There is a name already for what Glenn describes. Labelling those who disagree with you as traitors, advocating violence, especially under the auspices of the state, to silence them are classic hall marks of fascism, and people need to be warned loudly and in no uncertain terms, that a fascist state is what this movement built on rage is building.
ReplyDeleteHow will all of this bubbling rage and hatred and desire to punish political opponents manifest in the event of another terrorist attack?
ReplyDeleteI think it is a strange assumption that another terrorist attack on the US would strengthen Bush. Today's political climate is nothing like that of 2001. He has squandered all of the advantages he had then. He is no longer even vaguely popular, and most importantly, he could not blame the attack on Clinton's failings. I think people would react more along the lines of "After six years under your command, we are STILL not any safer?" I don't think it would strangthen him. I think it would get him impeached.
Let's not get carried away here, folks. Last I checked, Democrats aren't being carted off into concentration camps somewhere in middle of the Nevada desert.
ReplyDeleteAnd, speaking of bile and rage, the comments on this website, in case no one's noticed, are frequently unhinged and rageful. Let's not pretend to be above the fray. The polemics of the Right and Left -- it's all equally irritating.
The best article I've read in recent weeks on this is John Dean's Friday column at FindLaw:
ReplyDeletehttp://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20060421.html
Dean invokes James D. Barber's classifications of presidential character to forecast how Bush will continue to behave in the face of increasing resistance. It's scary stuff -- and all the more scary because it proceeds from a well-regarded political theory that explains the behavior of previous active/negative presidents like Hoover, LBJ, and Nixon (whom Dean watched self-destruct from a front-row seat).
Dean says that Bush's leadership style will only become more instransigent and risky as he feels the walls closing in. Glenn and Digby both have dark forebodings about what could happen next; Dean affirms them, and explains exactly why it will go down just that way.
I think Glenn's right about Bush becoming more dangerous the lower his numbers go, because he's so insecure and defensive. I wouldn't be surprised if he nukes Iran for the hell of it when he breaks 30%, or incites a coup when he reaches 20%.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying I think either or both of these things are going to happen, or even likely, but just that I wouldn't be surprised. And that's a little scary...
phd9- I hope you don't forget to wave to China as they pass us heading the other direction. Our leaders are taking us towards dictatorship, their people will take them out of it. As the Chairman said, 'The people lead, the politicians follow.' Give them a chance. They were a medieval country 60 years ago and didn't have our advantage of taking over a continent with extensive natural resources (discounting Xingjiang, etc.). Right now the same folks who were all for us 'engaging' the institutionally racist government of South Africa are slagging China. Don't let your opinions be shaped only by the slanted American media. There has been so much change in China over the last twenty years it is unbelievable. That change will undoubtedly continue.
ReplyDeleteThe Hidden Imam said...
ReplyDeleteLet's not get carried away here, folks. Last I checked, Democrats aren't being carted off into concentration camps somewhere in middle of the Nevada desert.
But if we accept the logic of the "Unitary Executive" the only thing preventing it from happening is the president's goodwill.
Hidden Imam could stand to appreciate the difference between someone screaming, "I'll shoot you dead!" when he's pointing his index finger at you, and doing so with a loaded firearm.
ReplyDeleteAre these situations "equally irritating" to him? Maybe (actually, like most people drawing equivalences between left and right, I suspect he's more perturbed by the left).
But equally dangerous to America? Hell, no.
Glen,
ReplyDeleteis it just me or your comments, witty, charming and up to the point just a few short weeks back, are gradually becoming an endless whining tirade against those pesky windmills. In this case the right-wing windmills, but whining is just that... whining.
Glenn claims repbulicans want to criminalize dissent. Yet he and all those like him advocate criminalizing the defense of the country at a time of war.
ReplyDeleteOf course the reality is that not all dissent is criminalized just the providing of aid and comfort to the enemy by compromising our defense programs and NSA counter-intelligence efforts. Such criminal disclosures are NOT dissent, they are providing aid and comfort to the enemy in exchange for some temporary pecuniary gain or political advantage.
The other reality is that Glenn and his band of sycophants and those like them have been demanding the criminalization of the legitimate defense policies of this country at a time of war.
I certainly know which criminalization troubles me more and which doesn't.
Says the "Dog"
Daily I feel a sense of rage. Why?
ReplyDeleteI'm being told daily that I'm a traitor because I disagree.
Why are our democratic leaders willing to let this rhetoric fester against them and the broader US community?
The next democratic leader on a talking head show should show OUTRAGE at anyone who uses the coded words of treason. “Aren’t you hurting the troops, by talking about torture,” should be met with extreme indignation and a demand that anyone who would suggest it’s treasonous should apologize on the spot on the show at that time. And, it should be done without backing down and without allowing the one to suggest treasonous intentions to escape visible scorn.
I don’t understand allowing the rhetoric to be unchallenged.
Glenn, I agree with the danger that’s obvious to those with a longer view. But, many times I’ve seen progressives across the spectrum meekly say “No” I’m really not a traitor and try and duck out of the topic. It’s a tool that we allow used against us and the progressive leadership.
Saying that LGF or Malkin are using eleminationist rhetoric is kind of a “well duh” kind of point. Our reaction to it has encouraged this. Think about it. If we only answer meekly to these challenges they only become emboldened to use them more often. They are very effective.
The language of treason is being used against us daily. It needs to be countered with more than. “I’m not a traitor.” It’s Karl Rove’s wet dream to have the democratic leadership and the netroots denying treasonous intentions. It’s countered by a DEMAND that it stop. If we can’t find the courage to do this within our leadership we are doomed.
A whistleblower? Pleeeeeeease...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/24/cia.firing/
Sources also confirmed to CNN that the officer fired last Thursday is Mary O. McCarthy, who last worked in the CIA inspector general's office.
"It's not just about one story, it's a pattern of activity," the official said.
"McCarthy admitted to multiple unauthorized contacts with journalists"
Officials said the investigation into leaking to Dana Priest of The Washington Post, and other journalists, is ongoing. "It is not over yet," said one.
Two congressional aides -- one Democratic, one Republican -- both told CNN they knew of no attempt by McCarthy to speak to intelligence committee members about any concerns about CIA activities.
Former acting CIA Director John McLaughlin, a CNN contributor, has said any CIA employee who wants to raise complaints should address the agency inspector general or the appropriate intelligence committees, not the media.
LMAO - whistleblower, nice try. The word is mole.
Glen ended with:
ReplyDelete"I actually think that in the case of this president, the more weakened and unpopular he becomes, the more desperate he will be to lash out -- in bitterness, with a desire for retribution, and to display strength."
And it's OUR job to make this lashing out turn into a "Battle of the Bulge" type of thing. Meet every such lashing out with greater and greater force (which we'll have because we're winning - albeit slowly).
It's another facet of the general strategy instantiated in Kos' suggestion that every single republican Congressional seat be contested.
Meet them on EVERY battlefield. Their attacks will of necessity become weaker and weaker.
Hey Rosenberg, you need to adjust your tinfoil hat. I think your reception is way off.
ReplyDeleteI did get a good laugh out of your post however. Such rampant paranoia is usually the province of the various communist organizations or the aryan nations. I assume from your name, you aren't a member of the aryan nations so that leaves international answer or the socialist workers party or something similar.
Says the "Dog"
Nice to see the wingnuts finally get in on this thread. Belittling and obfuscating away (whining tirade, rage, calling us Nazis, tilting at windmills, ragefull, unhinged, calling Bush a traitor, etc.). Methinks the Bush apologists are a bit slow on the keyboard finger. PS. When Quixote was tilting the windmills they didn't have the capacity to start lobbing nukes into Iran. As far as the Naked Imam's 'Last I checked, Democrats aren't being carted off into concentration camps' we're just supposed to trust we won't be on the list eh? As usual these folks attack the form without addressing the content.
ReplyDeleteGlenn:
ReplyDeleteIt looks like the argument of a Dem "Culture of Treason" being made by the conservative blogs has hit a nerve, huh?
More often than not, the chosen new enemies are not terrorists or foreign threats, but Americans who are perceived to have politically damaged the Commander-in-Chief in some way -- which makes them traitorous and worthy of punishment with no limits...Calling for the arrest of their domestic political opponents on grounds of treason is so routine for Bush followers that there is nothing extraordinary to them when they do it.
1) I noticed that you did not (or were not able to) rebut the various quoted blog arguments that the NSA leakers, Berger, McCarthy and the reporters who published classified materials were in fact guilty of a variety of felony crimes for illegally disclosing or stealing classified information under the US Code.
2) I also noted that not a single quoted blog called for these suspects and convict to be tried for your imaginary crimes of "politically damaging the CiC" or for the crime of treason. Every single alleged perp is accused of a specific violation of the US Code.
3) Why shouldn't the law be enforced and these accused felons be arrested and jailed until they make bail?
4) As for Kerry's latest example of flip flopping in a single quote by praising McCarthy and then calling for her prosecution, exactly how is Levin wrong is pointing out that such two faced behavior is incompatible with command? Indeed, I am surprised that you have not called Kerry a Bush partisan for wanting to enforce the law against McCarthy.
Law-and order, red-state, non-nuanced, thinking Americans would expect the law to be enforced...
Uh, yes. The question is why you do not want the law enforced.
(1) When the administration assures everyone that its most extreme and illegal measures -- warrantless eavesdropping, secret torture gulags, lawless detentions, etc. -- are being applied only to the enemies of the U.S. -- i.e., only to al Qaeda and its allies -- isn't there a fairly significant danger that they are using, or will use, the sweeping, broad definitions which are now routinely used for these terms by Bush followers, a definition that encompass not only actual allies of Al Qaeda but those domestic political opponents deemed to give aid and comfort to Al Qaeda by virtue of their political views, to the point of deserving prison?
Do you have an actual example of these "broad definitions?" The crimes of which these alleged perps are accused are specifically spelled out in the US Code.
All of this accumulated rhetoric has to have an effect. The excesses and extremist conduct in which our government now engages has become so commonplace as to be mind-numbing.
Excessive and extremist rhetoric? Perhaps, you would like to review your own post....
We use torture as an interrogation tool. We use secret, off-the-book Soviet-era gulags that are beyond the reach of the law. We send people to the most repugnant governments to be tortured. And the President has expressly embraced the theory that he has the power to break the law.
Feel free to prove any of these slanders.
There certainly appears to be no limits on what Bush followers will endorse in the name of fighting The Enemies, domestic ones included, sometimes most prominently.
Perhaps this needs to be reworded for accuracy...
"There certainly appears to be no limit on the laws to be broken or the slanders to be made by Bush haters in the name of regaining political power."
How will all of this bubbling rage and hatred and desire to punish political opponents manifest in the event of another terrorist attack?
If we suffer another 9/11 scale terrorist attack which went undetected because of the criminal disclosure of the NSA Program, I am sure the political backlash by the voters against the Dems will be very severe.
With all of the "crimes against America" that they single out, what is always missing is any identification of any actual harm to our national security.
How exactly can you still say this with a straight face?
1) The NSA Program stopped at least two al Qaeda attacks in the US according to your "patriotic" (sic) leaker and identified at least 10 al Qaeda agents each year for which FISA warrants were sought according to the WP. Since the NYT informed al Qeada of this program, identification of al Qaeda targets plunged.
2) Senior al Qeada were detained outside of muslim areas in Eastern Europe for security so that al Qaeda would not attempt a jail break as they have in Yemen, Pakistan and Iraq in the past. McCarthy blew that security and the detainees needed to be moved to reestablish security. Moreover, this harmed the active cooperation of several allied intelligence agencies who reportedly were working with us to detain al Qaeda in their countries.
UPDATE: Digby posted yesterday on the fact that Bush followers are "agitating to criminalize dissent."
Blankley pointed out provisions of the existing UCMJ which some generals may have come close to (not did) violating.
Glenn, the military is not a free speech society. Communicating contempt for superiors is a UCMJ criminal offense. Military members had to be threatened with actual (not as in this case imagined) prosecution under this provision to stop actual contempt against Clinton when he was CiC being openly spoken and transmitted in emails.
The Hidden Imam said...
ReplyDeleteLet's not get carried away here, folks. Last I checked, Democrats aren't being carted off into concentration camps somewhere in middle of the Nevada desert.
Not yet, but if the modern-day Nazis of the GOP had their way, liberals -- among others -- would be exterminated.
When Hitler took power and started his eliminationist campaign, there were many Jews who sounded just like you, H.I. "Hey, we've heard this talk before, little ever comes of it, let's just blow it off, things will cool down."
They were wrong.
And, speaking of bile and rage, the comments on this website, in case no one's noticed, are frequently unhinged and rageful. Let's not pretend to be above the fray. The polemics of the Right and Left -- it's all equally irritating.
I haven't seen anything such thing, but let's say you're right: We're fighting for our survival, and if that means engaging in the same rhetoric and using the same tactics our enemies have successfully used, then so be it.
Taking the highroad for forty years has led liberals to a dead-end; it's time we start bulldozing and restructuring the political landscape -- and trap the GOP in a cul de sac until that party crumbles.
Glenn sez:
ReplyDeleteThose sentiments are pervasive and are always lurking near the surface among many Bush followers, which is why calls for imprisonment and execution have become a routine part of their political dialogue. If a political movement is based upon the routine labelling of one's political opponents as traitors and deserving of imprisonment and even death, this is the natural by-product of what is being sown.
Just their fascist fangs showing through. Nothing to see here. Move on. Can't you just move on?...
Cheers,
Ender, there has been no torture; preemptive war is in this case defensive, and war of any kind is not illegal as long as you win; there has been no illegal spying on americans, there has been listening in on phone calls and emails from suspected enemy combatants; and enemy combatants are not entitled to civil court due process.
ReplyDeleteYou might have a point if only your "facts" weren't so incredibly wrong. If this matter came down to a vote. You, Glenn and many others here would all be standing in the same line as Bin Laden to cast your votes. Think about it.
Says the "Dog"
Torture, abrogation of Habeus Corpus, the right to question your accusers and their evidence, selective enforcement of criminal and tax codes, pre-emptive attacks, unlimited detention without trial, secret prisons on foreign soil, all necessary for this undeclared war, all supposedly with American interests at heart. Dog you are a true patriot! Your mother would be proud, Now please go pee in the corner somewhere else...
ReplyDeleteGlenn:
ReplyDeleteThe ever dwindling group of Bush followers has become a highly emotional group....
You misspelled "psychotic".
Cheers,
"Let's not get carried away here, folks. Last I checked, Democrats aren't being carted off into concentration camps somewhere in middle of the Nevada desert."
ReplyDeleteIndeed. They aren't offering any meaningful resistance, either, and are quite content to be labeled the root of all evil. Caught between being te party of no ideas and the pro-fag, anti-family, tax-junkie terror-abetitng camp.
Here in Brazil, our military dictatorship kileld only a few thousand (arrested and tortured many, many times that number). Low body count. They used it as a defense of sorts, the right wing. 'See! The commies killed -millions!-".
The truth, however, is that they dodn't -need- to kill millions to get their way. They were quite ready to, but society caved in and started marching in lockstep.
I see few meaningful differences. Bush's polls may be in the crapper, but his polirical -project- is moving along nicely, thank you. Social Security 'overhaul" has already entered the mainstream debate as a sane idea. Power projection across the globe on an eternal defensive quest is here to stay.
Bush doesn't need cheering masses and 70% approval ratings. He just needs compliant indifference from 51% of the people, and a corporate media that is not even an instrument of the powers that be but an actual member of the club.
reichstag burning:
ReplyDeleteWe MUST re-establish the media as a voice of moderation and reason. This can happen only if corporatist power is removed from the equation.
I think you nailed it. When the corporations go along for the ride (out of self-interest or kinship, whatever), then we have in place yet another of the defining charateristics of fascism. And a good part of the MSM are corporations first and foremost and are frighteningly and outrageously in the pocket of the Republicans right now....
Cheers,
Tomorrow, though, I may be singing a different song and need a boost myself.
ReplyDeleteJust wait for the "October Suprise" which will, no doubt, pull Bushie's dirty-filthy ass out of the fire for the next two years. The American people are not ones to disappoint when absurdity and criminality are wrapped in the flag and laced with totally unrealistic fear.
There has been no torture? preemptive war is in this case defensive?
ReplyDeletewar of any kind is not illegal as long as you win?
there has been no illegal spying on americans?
there has been listening in on phone calls and emails from suspected enemy combatants?
see EFF vs ATT
enemy combatants are not entitled to civil court due process?
I think we have a new record for the number a false statements per paragraph!
gideon s said:
ReplyDeleteTaking the highroad for forty years has led liberals to a dead-end;
Now that's one of the most hilariously funny falsities I've ever seen written here.
Says the "Dog"
When Hitler took power and started his eliminationist campaign, there were many Jews who sounded just like you, H.I. "Hey, we've heard this talk before, little ever comes of it, let's just blow it off, things will cool down."
ReplyDeleteAnother point: The Left is just as guilty as the Right in viewing every event as a replay of the Nazis. Glenn accuses those concerned about Iran and its genocidal President as seeing Hitler in everything. The argument could be easily made that the Left sees every measure taken by the Administration as the reincarnation of Germany's descent into fascism.
Prosecuting/persecuting whistleblowers - their intent being to expose illegal or nefarious activities - is unAmerican. Plain and simple.
ReplyDeleteThen again, this isn't really America anymore. Not really.
Imam- I'm not a liberal, anarcho-syndicalist actually, but I think the Bushies are doing just fine on their own without tarring them as Nazis, they were more efficient. They seem more Orwellian-Machiavellian to me. Just thought you might be taking a poll or something.
ReplyDeleteI guess nearly 70 percent of the population is guilty of sedition in the eyes of the Bush cultists.
ReplyDeleteKeep up the excellent work, Glenn!
Little confused on Levin blog read as he says "Plame was not a “CIA agent" so no crime was committed in outing her.
ReplyDeleteYet in next paragraph about McCarthy he says, "she revealed the existence of supposed CIA prisons". So by this logic if there is no secret prisons where is the crime?
"Ugly American":
ReplyDeleteI could go on and on but I thought that 4 of the first 5 posts was enough to make the point.
Yes, indeedy. The Nazis thought they were the rational ones. Those that went along meekly were good patriots (for the moment), but those that raised their voices were "crazy", "enemies of the state" or worse. Just one word: "Niemoller".
Cheers,
We MUST re-establish the media as a voice of moderation and reason. This can happen only if corporatist power is removed from the equation.
ReplyDeleteTranslation: In the name of stopping fascism and free speech we must use deadly force to make sure the MSM only writes stories and only has those opinions approved by the official left wing censors of freedom and light.
You guys have had the MSM so far in your pockets for decades when they fail to be completely off the deep end moonbats you're fascists/totalitarian/communist beliefs are revealed in their full glory.
Praedor: October Surprises are the province of the left and their minions in the MSM. Just thought you should know your history.
f. Jardim: Isn't Brazil now the most free and prosperous country in all of South America? Isn't it now doing so much better than it or any other country ever did under the commies/socialist dictators? Do you not have elections in Brazil? Are you a communist/socialist?
Says the "Dog"
Yes, indeedy. The Nazis thought they were the rational ones. Those that went along meekly were good patriots (for the moment), but those that raised their voices were "crazy", "enemies of the state" or worse. Just one word: "Niemoller".
ReplyDeleteHere it is again. See my post above.
But don't worry, Arne. If you find yourself on trial for treason, you can count on me to testify as a character witness in your favor. I'm really cool like that you know.
"the dog" sez, like a good little puppy:
ReplyDeleteYet he and all those like him advocate criminalizing the defense of the country at a time of war.
Umm, no one said anything about "criminalizing the defense of the country". Glenn's primary copmplaint is that the preznit and the maladministration are violating existing laws, if not the Constitution. Which you seem to think is just Okey-Dokey, as long as your Fuhrer says it's "for the greater good" (and strangely enough, you seem to think that Iraq was a sterling example of that....)
Cheers,
right on the money again, Glenn. Let's hope these rabid Bush supporters become even more marginalized in the next few years
ReplyDelete"Prosecuting/persecuting whistleblowers "
ReplyDeleteThis is simply not a whistleblower case. This woman was very high up in the CIA and is fully aware of all the avenues that are avaiable to disclose criminal wrong doing by the CIA. She chose to continulously leak to the press while donating a substantial percentage of her salary to the Kerry campaign in a key battleground state.
Sorry, this woman is a powerful, connected,partisian, vindictive cunt who would sell out our entire security apparatus for an opportunity in a democrat admisitration.
Any moonbat defense of this shitbag is a joke. She belongs in jail and that is most likely where she will end up.
HWSNBN sez:
ReplyDeleteIt looks like the argument of a Dem "Culture of Treason" being made by the conservative blogs has hit a nerve, huh?
Oh, OK. So HWSNBN admits both to the nature of the program and to the Republican Mighty Wurlitzer campaign to flog it unceasingly. Progress of a sort.
Cheers,
Arne, so a CIA democrat violating existing law by leaking national security war secrets is criminal and NOT an example of serving the greater good as Glenn claims? You can't have it both ways.
ReplyDeleteSays the "Dog"
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteDo you have an actual example of these "broad definitions?" The crimes of which these alleged perps are accused are specifically spelled out in the US Code.
Just to pick one, what was the "crime" committed by Howard Dean that is punishable by death by hanging?
Cheers,
Boy, this post seems to have drawn the yappy-dog RW rhetoriticians out in force here.
ReplyDeleteWonder why.
Just to pick one, what was the "crime" committed by Howard Dean that is punishable by death by hanging?
ReplyDeleteWell, I find him to be somewhat smug.
Forgive me if this has been posted, but I did not know this:
ReplyDeleteDemocrats file suit against Republicans
Also, CHECK THIS OUT
And, Califorina Joins the Fray!
"The Wingers have a new talk radio station, too. Its slogan: "Liberals hate it.""
ReplyDeletePissing off self righteous liberls is like shooting fish in a barrel, but damn it's fun.
"The Hidden Imam" cluelessly sez:
ReplyDelete[Arne]: Just one word: "Niemoller".
. . .
But don't worry, Arne. If you find yourself on trial for treason, you can count on me to testify as a character witness in your favor. I'm really cool like that you know.
I guess you didn't understand the reference, did you? Really, you ought to read up on your history a bit.
But, to be honest, I'm of the opinion that you're more likely to be the person dropping the dime.
Regardless, your "help" here, I'm afraid, of whatever kind and substance, would likely be worthless (which was pretty much my point). So I must regret to accept and say, "no, thank you."
Cheers,
The Dog;
ReplyDeleteActually, we have 15% unemployment, no First Ammendment equivalent protecting free speech, 60% of the population living below the poverty line. Last year, the economy grew a glorious 2%, and during most of the 90s that number hovered close to zero. Police brutality and corruption are rampant, as is crime; 5 thousand people are murdered every year, -in my city alone-.
All of the partial legacies of the dictatorship you undoutedly think saved us from the commies. Oh wait! It actually saved us of the guy that was trying to be the FDR of Brazil. School lunches and minimum wage ARe a tool of the Moscow Overlords, though, aren't they?
In fact, our military dictatorship was quite keen on getitng the atom bomb. Research a bit. They censored, tortured, lied and stole Brazil into 50 more years of Third World penance...at least. You don't have to be a comunist or socialist to be pissed about that. At least, I'm not, and that chapter of our history makes my blood boil.
There has -never- been any risk of communist uprising in Brazil. Ever. There WERE several generations of politicians demonizing labor leaders as being totalitarian monsters and curtailing freedoms to 'fight' them. The coup happend to "prevent an imminent marxist attack", of course...but mysteriously, onc eit happened, no one could find any commies ready do do batlte against the capitalist heroes. They had to settle for jailing teachers who asked "When do we get to vote again?"
So. We're not prosperous. Only marginally more free than the average cuban. We're not safe. Got it?
"The Dog" sez:
ReplyDeleteArne, so a CIA democrat violating existing law by leaking national security war secrets is criminal and NOT an example of serving the greater good as Glenn claims? You can't have it both ways.
I never said any such thing. Not that you'd notice, despite this very point having been made numerous times in a previous column by Glenn.
FWIW, I have commented previously on what I think should be the proper response to those that put forth the extreme hypothetical about torturing a person to find out the location of a nuclear bomb. It's here.
That should explain my attitude (and I don't think it's far from Glenn's).
Cheers,
If a soviet bureaucrat in the 50s and 60s had found a way to publish exactly what went on in the Soviet prisons, we would be hailing him or her a hero to this day. He'd have become a martyr for human rights.
ReplyDeleteSomehow, nowadays talking about using some of those same gulags to store people accused of nothing and with no legal representation is a big no-no.
People like The Dog probably think that the only wrong thing about the Gulag Archipelago was the scale. They are remarkably communist that way.
I think it is a strange assumption that another terrorist attack on the US would strengthen Bush.
ReplyDeleteIt's a good thing I didn't assume that then. But it is clearly the case that miltiary conflicts with foreign enemies tend to unite the country behind the president.
Let's not get carried away here, folks. Last I checked, Democrats aren't being carted off into concentration camps somewhere in middle of the Nevada desert.
Why not, though? If so many of them are engaging in sedition, giving aid & comfort to the enemy, and committing treason, shouldn't they be?
DOG SAID: I assume from your name, you aren't a member of the aryan nations so that leaves international answer or the socialist workers party or something similar.
Yeah - as Dog showed with his comment, it's nothing but rabid paranoia to observe that dissent from this administration will subject you to accusations of being a subversive - maybe just membership in the "international answer or the socialist workers party or something similar."
BART SAID "Excessive and extremist rhetoric?"
Since you defend the accusations against people like McCarthy, Berger, and the NSA journalists - do you believe they are guilty of treason? Do you think they should be hanged as traitors? Did you agree with Michael Reagan's call for Howard Dean to be hanged and with Ben Shapiro's call for Dean, Al Gore and John Kerry to be imprisoned for sedition?
This might be my favorite sentence ever - from the DOG:
"there has been listening in on phone calls and emails from suspected enemy combatants; and enemy combatants are not entitled to civil court due process.
Notice how "suspected enemy combatants" morphed right into "enemy combatants" - no evidence, no trial, no conviction - nothing needed. Just the decree of the Leader is enough to remove all of your rights. "Supected (by the president) enemy combatant" = "enemy combatant" = "no rights of any kind." That is their vision of the United States, in a nutshell.
The Levin post you linked really is pretty extraordinary. Near the end, he recycles every long-discredited GOP talking point on Plame in an attempt to discredit Kerry - going as far as to claim, she wasn't a CIA agent! But of course, the most salient feature of the post is that 'my political opponents are traitors.'
ReplyDeleteArne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteBart: Do you have an actual example of these "broad definitions?" The crimes of which these alleged perps are accused are specifically spelled out in the US Code.
Just to pick one, what was the "crime" committed by Howard Dean that is punishable by death by hanging?
Did I mention Howard Dean among the Perps?
Why did you add Dean to the list? Guilty conscience about bin Laden using Dean rhetoric in his own al Qaeda propaganda?
I think that Glenn is correct that the more unpopular Bush becomes the more desperate and extreme the tactics and rhetoric become. At the same time, however, the more unpopular he becomes the less effective this rhetoric will be as well – because the more people it applies to – indeed, it is now the vast majority of Americans who would be deemed “traitors” if opposing Bush is the criteria.
ReplyDeleteLet’s not forget that calling the Democrats “traitors” is hardly new, and in its most modern reincarnation dates back to 1990 when Newt Gingrich sent out GOP memo
Language: A Key Mechanism of Control and the words this GOPAC memo said should be applied to the Democrats and their proposals:
"betray," "bizarre," "cheat," "corrupt," "destroy," "disgrace," "greedy," "incompetent," "intolerant," "radical," "shallow," "sick," and "traitors."
So while that sort of rhetoric is not new and has become in part “institutionalized” by the GOP, its frequency and ferocity is far beyond anything we’ve seen in decades. Even more worrisome is that the calls to criminalize dissent are being taking seriously by an administration that finds itself cornered.
Never before have we had an entire administration and a good part of a major political party become a “criminal enterprise” but that is where we find ourselves now. So we are breaking new ground here, and history in no longer a guide to limits of their behavior. Especially since they perceive that if they lose control of Congress in November, many of them may go to prison if actual investigations occur. Again, new ground.
John Dean has been talking about an “October Surprise” and I agree with him. It’s possible that a little “shock and awe” may be tried in Iran, but it’s no longer inconceivable that a rogue government agency would plan and implement a limited “terrorist attack” in this country. Now that may sound like a plot out of a Dan Brown novel, but foreign policy is being run out of Cheney’s office circumventing traditional intelligence and other departmental oversight. I haven’t donned a tin foil hat yet, but it is also not unimaginable that they are at least thinking about something like this.
The same is true with regard to planting false evidence in the possession of key political opponents hands, linking them with some sort of terrorism. After all, these guys make Nixon look like a “piker.” They may try to tie part of the Democratic Party with terrorists, or a terrorist plot.
Now I’d like to think some of my speculation is far-fetched, but if we do have another terrorist attack all bets are off – look how far they used the first one to consolidate power and trample on basic American values.
I think we have to distinguish between the rhetoric of blowhard bloggers and the actions of government – that’s important. But we already see Porter Goss grilling people on their political affiliations – those are “governmental” actions, and we need to watch them closely. If journalists and critics do start going to jail and start receiving subpoenas, that’s a lot more worrisome than what a crazed blogger like Malkin spews to try to stir up outrage – and hits on her web-site.
To end on a more optimistic note, I think that two factors become very important – this administration’s complete loss of credibility, and the new “anger” among those who despise what Bush is doing to this country. As that becomes more obvious to a greater number of people, the intensity of the opposition will increase proportionally as well. Bush is in deep trouble, and even a terrorist attack can’t save him – it can only postpone the inevitable.
Let's not get carried away here, folks. Last I checked, Democrats aren't being carted off into concentration camps somewhere in middle of the Nevada desert.
ReplyDeleteGlenn: Why not, though? If so many of them are engaging in sedition, giving aid & comfort to the enemy, and committing treason, shouldn't they be?
Your same rhetorical device -- taking extreme statements and then putting it to the test of real consequences -- leads to the following argument against many Leftist bloggers and their peanut gallerists: if Bush is Hitler, or some other dictator, then is it not our duty to assasinate him or to violently overthrow the government?
Shoes Of Peace said...
ReplyDeleteFrom what I've seen, Bart never stands a chance in here. You guys are much smarter than he is.
:::chuckle:::
70 posts by "intellectually superior" (sic) posters and not a single one has even attempted to prove that the perps accused of (and in two cases reportedly confessing to) stealing and illegally disclosing classified information are actually innocent of these felonies.
I do hear a whole lot of whining about living in a "police state" and assorted other paranoid delusional conspiracy theories, but nothing actually on the subject itself.
Mass group therapy for the delusional.
I see we've heard from from the anonymous moral midget, the dog (clearly as unevolved as ever), and Bart, none of whom either address the issue under discussion nor present a compelling case agasint it.
ReplyDeleteNone of you have actually been paying attention the last few weeks, have you? You haven't read any of the arguments here, have you?
Didn't think so.
"...just fathom what sorts of measures will be considered and advocated in the event of another attack, particularly one with a greater impact than the 9/11 attack."
ReplyDeletewhen the lunatics try to arrest or otherwise harm me for speaking out, I will be fighting back. i will kill for my own civil liberties. i will not hesitate to view the arm of such a state as an enemy myself. at that point it is civil fucking war. then we'll see who stands by their convictions and who doesn't. we'll see who the patriotsdare and who isn't really willing to die for what they belive in.
>I do hear a whole lot of whining about living in a "police state" and assorted other paranoid delusional conspiracy theories, but nothing actually on the subject itself<
ReplyDeleteLets reveiew the list shall we.
detaining people not accused of crimes? - check.
Holding them indefinitely without access to council? - check.
Detaining foriegners as enemy combatants on the say-so of dubious information sources? - check.
Subjecting them to humiliation, stress positioning, dog attacks, simulated drowning or electroction, and sodomy with inanimate objects? - check.
Launching a war resulting in tens of thousands of dead based on information known to be in doubt? - check.
Being prepared to launch a first use nuclear strike on a country we are not currently at war with? - check.
Nope, nothing but paranoid fantasies of a police state happening here! Not justified in the least. Nope! Move along now. Nothing to see here!
It's nice to see, Ugly, that Mr. Sharansky has finally found a gulag he can endorse.
ReplyDeleteIn the meantime, you, he, and about 3% of Americans, last I checked, were the only people still dumb enough to think that this has anything to do with freedom or democracy.
.
Glenn Greenwald said...
ReplyDeleteLet's not get carried away here, folks. Last I checked, Democrats aren't being carted off into concentration camps somewhere in middle of the Nevada desert.
Why not, though? If so many of them are engaging in sedition, giving aid & comfort to the enemy, and committing treason, shouldn't they be?
Is this an admission of a "Culture of Treason?"
BART - Since you defend the accusations against people like McCarthy, Berger, and the NSA journalists - do you believe they are guilty of treason?
These perps, with the exception of Berger, are arguably providing aid and comfort to the enemy in fact. However, to prove the crime of treason, you need to prove that these perps had the intent to provide aid and comfort to the enemy. That would be difficult because their obvious intent was to gain political power for the Dems. They just do not care that they provide aid and comfort to an enemy in time of war to accomplish that goal. Thus the "Culture of Treason."
Did you agree with Michael Reagan's call for Howard Dean to be hanged?
While that suggestion has a visceral attraction given that Dean is one of those supplying bin Laden's propaganda points, I do not believe he should be hung. Public condemnation and ridicule will have to suffice. As an Elephant, I cannot think of a better face of the Donkey party than Howard Dean.
and with Ben Shapiro's call for Dean, Al Gore and John Kerry to be imprisoned for sedition?
No, I do not believe that sedition is any longer a crime in this nation.
Now, can you answer a question for me? Do you claim that McCarthy, Berger, the NSA leakers or the journalists who published classified information are innocent of violating several provisions of the US Code for stealing and illegally disclosing classified information?
If so, make your legal case without the whining about imaginary police states. Just the facts and law for once please...
70 posts by "intellectually superior" (sic) posters and not a single one has even attempted to prove that the perps accused of (and in two cases reportedly confessing to) stealing and illegally disclosing classified information are actually innocent of these felonies.
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you go back and show me where anybody made such a claim.
Why did you add Dean to the list? Guilty conscience about bin Laden using Dean rhetoric in his own al Qaeda propaganda?
ReplyDeleteIn order to have a guilty conscience over this, you'd have to be stupid enough to think that having bin Laden talk about things makes them off limits.
I'd expect a conservative to knuckle under to that kind of pressure. Gutless followers, they'd be powerless to resist. No wonder they're so easy to use against their country ...
... again.
.
Vietnam put a big kink in the enforcement of the power and will of the empire. How to make the plebs get with the program? The answer: Privatized and volunteer armed forces to do the bidding of the corporatists. Just control the information (classified!) and the delivery of such (corporate media) to keep Joe Public content that all is in his best interest.
ReplyDeleteNot much new, the underlying goal hasn't changed. The UCMJ and the USC on state secrets should check dissent from those in the know, and any leaks or protests by the few who do have suspicions can simply be branded traitorous.
"Partisan political" rhetoric? Please, let's call a spade a spade. This is class warfare, the rich against anyone who stands between them and their next million. To defend the Bush admin is either to be naive, obtuse or blatantly, even flagrantly enamored of wealth. What's to argue?
Mass group therapy for the delusional.
ReplyDeleteWith regret, I'd have to agree. Critical analysis of the Adminstration is one thing -- and I've enjoyed a lot of it on this website. But the good posts catching the Administration bullshitting their way through the secret NSA program, for example, have given way to hysterics. Like Charles Johnson, Glenn posts his (albeit, better written) the-sky-is-falling daily essay, and it triggers the Arnes and Cynic Librarians of the world to vent their grievances in what Bart accurately describes as a mass group therapy session.
These perps, with the exception of Berger, are arguably providing aid and comfort to the enemy in fact.
ReplyDeleteHow? How can anybody be so simple as to think that opposing Bush means helping bin Laden? As if Bush has the first clue about fighting terror.
Talking about Bush fucking up doesn't help the people Bush is too weak to fight anyway. All clear now?
.
Ugly American writes:
ReplyDeleteBut what would this guy know about it right?
I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Sharansky, just as I do for the secular Sunnis at Iraqi blogs who were euphoric when Saddam was toppled. But the unfortunate reality of the world as it is -- as opposed to how we'd like it to be -- is that war is breaking things and killing people, and cannot be undertaken without enormous risk of unleashing all manner of unintended consequence, including regional destabilization. Further, no matter the beautiful aspirations of men like Sharansky, those cannot transform Iraqi culture into fertile soil for democracy pursuant to the rule of law. Cultural preparedness for that cannot just be ordered as from a menu at Denny's, and the United States cannot make it happen.
See, this is what I do not get. Conservatives are supposed to know that social engineering is a bad thing in the domestic context (a proposition with which I broadly agree). Yet, they think via enough tanks and bombs we can -- presto! -- create a Western-style democracy out of a population seething with tribal and sectarian blood antagonisms. Well, good luck with all that. It's been working really well in Iraq.
Hidden Imam;
ReplyDeleteFar be it from me to say that the lef tis immune from hysteria. I do remember when we believed the invasion of Iraq would displace 4 million people and result in 500,000 deaths during the conflict itself. Thankfully, it didn't come to pass. We were wrong.
But when the fabric of the relationship between the powers that be is being openly formatted like this, we -should- worry. I don't even live there, and we're not gonna be invaded by you: i write this because the US, the bright part of it, is an inspiration we struggling countries -need-.
Or putting it in more pragmatic way: Had it been Al Gore taking the exact same measures, how would you react? How would rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter? Laws don't turn good or bad when the Executive changes...right?
PhD9 said...
ReplyDeleteBart: I do hear a whole lot of whining about living in a "police state" and assorted other paranoid delusional conspiracy theories, but nothing actually on the subject itself
Lets reveiew the list shall we.
detaining people not accused of crimes? - check.
Since when has the United States needed to charge enemy combatants with US civilian crimes? Indeed, that may arguably be illegal when the conduct is perpetrated overseas.
Holding them indefinitely without access to council? - check.
Since when do enemy combatants get attorneys?
Detaining foriegners as enemy combatants on the say-so of dubious information sources? - check.
Back in WWII, we would have shot these prisoners as illegal combatants with the "due process" of a field hearing. Today, we give them full blown military court hearings and have released hundreds, only to find several of them returning to the battlefield trying to kill our soldiers.
Subjecting them to humiliation, stress positioning, simulated drowning
Poor al Qaeda terrorists! In a phrase, f*ck them. I have no sympathy whatsoever for animals which have murdered 3500 of our citizens and almost daily massacre men, women and children at markets, mosques and funerals.
Illegal combatants live at our pleasure under international law. They only have the right not to be tortured. Humiliation, stress positions and waterboarding are not even close to torture.
dog attacks, or electroction, and sodomy with inanimate objects? - check.
These activities are illegal and the perps are being tried, usually convicted and then imprisoned if any such case can be proven.
BTW, this is yet another example of avoiding the subject - the criminal liability of McCarthy, Berger, Tice, the other NSA leakers and the NYT.
Why do you folks want to avoid that topic?
From Bart at 5:42PM:
ReplyDelete"70 posts by "intellectually superior" (sic) posters and not a single one has even attempted to prove that the perps accused of (and in two cases reportedly confessing to) stealing and illegally disclosing classified information are actually innocent of these felonies."
Unlike those (mercifully few) commentators here who see fit to hold the rest of us as directly responsible for the mis-steps and disasters the country now suffers from, the vast majority of us recognize our limitations in terms of access, influence, and ability.
In other words: it isn't up to us here to prove or disprove anything, about Ms. McCarthy or anything else. As I've been saying for two days straight, the facts haven't been fully determined and investigations are still ongoing. The intelligent thing to do would be to withhold judgment until its all finished.
Hence our discussing the Bushite's tendency towards autocratic paranoia rather than re-hash what little is known of these cases (none of it terribly enlightening).
Feel free to join us at any time, or don't. Its still a free country (despite the best efforts of the Bush Administration).
I will ask this of you: would any of you be as quick to defend the Administration if the President were Donkey rather than an Elephant?
Bart argues about Howard Dean: While that suggestion has a visceral attraction given that Dean is one of those supplying bin Laden's propaganda points, I do not believe he should be hung. Public condemnation and ridicule will have to suffice. As an Elephant, I cannot think of a better face of the Donkey party than Howard Dean.
ReplyDeleteJoseph Stalin spoke of and exploited those Americans who criticized Jim Crow, demanded racial equality, and harshly condemned their own government on that basis. Stalin made tons of propaganda use of the complaints in that regard.
So, I guess all the Americans upset about racial crimes should have just shut up, because it gave Stalin talking points. One should refrain from telling the truth as one reasonably sees it if our enemies agree with it and/or exploit one's statements.
At this point, I'd say Howard Dean has a better clue of foreign policy than Bush does. Proof. Pudding.
Any thread deteriorates at a rate directly proportional to the number of right wing trolls who frequent it and comment. You may call it by any name you like, but it is axiomatic.
ReplyDeleteCall it the anonymous axiom.
ReplyDeleteAt this point, I'd say Howard Dean has a better clue of foreign policy than Bush does. Proof. Pudding.
ReplyDeleteAt this point? You are on the slow learning curve, but at least you are learning.
Humiliation, stress positions and waterboarding are not even close to torture.
ReplyDeleteYou won't mind if I waterboard you or one of your family members to demonstrate how safe and how far from torture it really is.
We'll tape the whole thing. We can put this whole controversy to rest.
"Humiliation, stress positions and waterboarding are not even close to torture."
ReplyDeleteThe detachment from reality this implies is staggering. Had it been US citizens or soldiers suffering that kind of abuse, we'd be hearing quite the different tune from Mr. Bart.
Back during the dictatorship days that The Dog believes were so good for my country, the uncle of a friend of mine was 'humiliated' after being arrested in an amnesty march. They 'humiliated' him by shoving a coke bottle up his rectum and leaving it there. Of course, once released, it took him years to re-adjust. Every time he walked into a snack bar or a supermarket, there were coke bottles all around reminding him of what had happened. Psych torture at its finest.
All dandy for Mr. Bart.
Waterboarding has been known to break even the toughest, trained, hardened soldiers. Saying it's not torture unles sit involves spikes and singed flesh is an exercise in double-think.
By the way...Jesus Christ was killed by being placed in a "stress position"
Bart's fax machine is really cooking. The latest talking points are longer and more frantic than usual. Bush has hit 32% in the latest CNN poll.
ReplyDeleteHumiliation, stress positions and waterboarding are not even close to torture.
ReplyDeleteBullshit! I pay a hooker good money for that kind of thing. Are you saying I'm getting ripped off?
Comrade Communist "Hypatia" said...
ReplyDeleteBart argues about Howard Dean: While that suggestion has a visceral attraction given that Dean is one of those supplying bin Laden's propaganda points
Did she really say that? What an ultra-maroon!
Well you definitely hit a nerve with this one Glenn. I'll take a little more time to peruse the comments before I say much, but a quick look says you nailed it.
ReplyDeleteThere's no way to have a rational discussion with most of the extreme right-wingers who take their marching orders from their heroes like Rush and Hannity, who have been telling them for years that the majority of Americans are The Enemy-- they try to pretend liberal dems are some tiny evil traitorous group, forgetting Gore won more votes than GW which still drives them nuts.
Bart keeps asking somebody to say whether McCarthy (et al) should be charged with something, ignoring that Glenn was very clear about not knowing one way or the other whether she is guilty of anything, his point being the hypocritical selectivity, which Bart has never been able to refute. If she should be charged, should somebody go down for the Plame leak? And if you trot out the crap about her not being a NOC at the time I'll just post the stories where her colleagues make it clear how much damage her outing caused.
Basically the righties are responding the way I'd expect. For so many years now, rage and anger and accusations of treason have been their bread and butter-- when those being accused get tired of it and start to fight back with a little anger of their own, the righties get freaked and start calling you a hypocrite for being angry enough to call them traitors right back.
But when the fabric of the relationship between the powers that be is being openly formatted like this, we -should- worry.
ReplyDeleteDon't get me wrong, I think it's important to watch the Administration closely and blow the whistle when civil rights are abused. I don't agree with the right-wing bloggers' talk of traitors and sedition. The leaks are good: this way, at least, we can talk about the issues. But the Left's hysterics are annoying, and this website is increasingly becoming a forum for just that.
We're still figuring things out in this post 9-11 world. Soberiety is what's needed. That's what this country will be looking for next election. The party, or community, that best embodies sobriety will be getting a head start. This website, unfortunately, seems to be moving in the wrong direction. Save for a few, the comments section here is pitiful and no better or less hysterical or rageful than the LGF comments section. The potential to actually have a conversation between Right and Left is getting slimmer by the day. For a while, this website held out hope for that. But I just don't see that anymore. The Cynic Librarians, Arnes and Yankeependragons of the world are becoming the face of this website. Glenn likes to draw a nexus between Charles Johnson and the content of his commenters. Just apply the same standard here.
Why do their arguments always proceed as if it's a given that draconian, extra-judicial, extra-constitutional methods (like NSA spying) are being used against "terrorists"?
ReplyDeleteIf that's the case, there's plenty to get a warrant. If that's the case, there should be enough charge the damn "terrorist" and hold a trial.
Everyone knows this sleaze is expedient to crush political enemies of the president just as surely as they pretend that criticism of the corrupt administration is criticism of "the American people."
I call bullshit. I wish the Democrats would put their collective party foot down and do the same.
The hidden imam must be getting rotten crotch and boils from all that fence straddling. His balance is a bit off, though. (obvious bias)
ReplyDeleteComrade Communist "Hypatia" said...
ReplyDeleteJoseph Stalin spoke of and exploited those Americans who criticized Jim Crow, demanded racial equality, and harshly condemned their own government on that basis. Stalin made tons of propaganda use of the complaints in that regard.
So, I guess all the Americans upset about racial crimes should have just shut up, because it gave Stalin talking points. One should refrain from telling the truth as one reasonably sees it if our enemies agree with it and/or exploit one's statements.
The nominal leader of our minority party telling our troops and the enemy that the enemy had defeated us in the war we are fighting is the kind of defeatism which the Supreme Court after WWII found was grounds to convict several Americans of treason.
Your comparison with complaints about Jim Crow is ludicrous.
Hidden Imam.
ReplyDeleteI understand. I can even agree. One of the sad facts of politics, however, is that when one side turns radical, it rarely stay alone in the wailing wing for long.
The WTC towers were still standing, burning, when I was reading furious screeds about nuking Mecca in blogs here and there. That kind of reaction wa sunderstandable then. But a sizeable portion of people never really broke out of that stage. That rabid minority (and it -is- a minority) vituperating at the speed of Blog, combined with the delusioned liberals who saw themselves ignored and marginalized during the march towards Iraq, ha sindeed created an apocaliptic-minded, barbed sect in the liberal camp. However, I do believe it is a reactive force...even if that does not justify it.
On Glenn's writing, though, I have to differ. I believe tha t-because- his specialty has been and is legal matters, he feels this issues more deeply than the average news-muncher does. And if we do aim at being nations ruled by laws and not men, I think that zeal is forgivable.
The right wingers anger is proportionate to their growing loss of public support . The worse it gets, the more vitrolic their arguments. They display the anger of a spoiled teenager being told there is no Santa Claus.
ReplyDeleteThey're a sorry but vicious lot.
F. Jardim writes: By the way...Jesus Christ was killed by being placed in a "stress position"
ReplyDeleteVery good point. He didn't likely bleed to death. The mechanism of death, whether hung from or nailed to the tree, is usually asphyxiation, shock or exhaustion. From the position.
BTW, this is yet another example of avoiding the subject - the criminal liability of McCarthy, Berger, Tice, the other NSA leakers and the NYT.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you folks want to avoid that topic?
Avoid what? If there really is any criminal liability, where are the prosecutions?
You're asking us to join you in your fantasy world, to let you write a check that even George Bush won't cash.
Looks like you're all alone.
.
BTW, this is yet another example of avoiding the subject - the criminal liability of McCarthy, Berger, Tice, the other NSA leakers and the NYT.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you folks want to avoid that topic?
Avoid what? If there really is any criminal liability, where are the prosecutions?
You're asking us to join you in your fantasy world, to let you write a check that even George Bush won't cash.
Looks like you're all alone.
.
It’s really sad to see our trolls insist that everyone in U.S. custody is without doubt an Al Qaeda terrorist.
ReplyDeleteIt’s sad, because they are not that stupid, or ignorant, and the numerous news reports of innocents caught up in our system expose these talking points as blatant intellectual dishonesty.
The same is true of those pretending that those in our custody have not been tortured, which ignores the dozens that have “spontaneously” died while being interrogated.
Really, what must be thinking when they write this stuff that they must know to be false?
They know that we know these statements are false, yet they spew them anyway.
Why? It’s all they’ve got. Lies, outrage and hatred. What an evil brew this Kool-Aid be.
The nerve of some people. We spend billions of dollars to free these ingrates from socialism and look what they go and do. Now you know why we hate democracy and put our faith in Diebold.
ReplyDeleteHungary ruling coalition claims victory
Monday 24 April 2006, 2:37 Makka Time, 23:37 GMT
The coalition government led by Ferenc Gyurcsany, the Socialist prime minister, has become Hungary's first post-communist government to win re-election.
The National Election Office on Sunday projected the Socialists and their coalition partners winning 210 of the 386 seats in the legislature, 12 more than they hold now.
The two centre-right opposition groups were seen winning 175 seats, with one seat going to an independent candidate.
Official results in 11 districts where the margin of victory was very small were expected to be announced in a few days - after the ballots from Hungarians voting abroad were counted - but they were not likely to affect the coalition's success.
Laszlo Solyom, the president, said that once the results were final, he would initiate talks with the parties in parliament to form a new government as soon as possible.
"I want to give thanks to all the citizens who exercised their right to vote," Solyom said.
The National Election Office on Sunday projected the Socialists and their coalition partners winning 210 of the 386 seats in the legislature, 12 more than they hold now.
The two centre-right opposition groups were seen winning 175 seats, with one seat going to an independent candidate.
Official results in 11 districts where the margin of victory was very small were expected to be announced in a few days - after the ballots from Hungarians voting abroad were counted - but they were not likely to affect the coalition's success.
Laszlo Solyom, the president, said that once the results were final, he would initiate talks with the parties in parliament to form a new government as soon as possible.
"I want to give thanks to all the citizens who exercised their right to vote," Solyom said.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThe right wingers anger is proportionate to their growing loss of public support . The worse it gets, the more vitrolic their arguments. They display the anger of a spoiled teenager being told there is no Santa Claus.
They're a sorry but vicious lot.
And they had the ball... and fumbled. Do you see a pattern emerging with them? They have all the right opening moves, but never an endgame. They just can't go the distance, or... dare I say it? Stay the course.
The nominal leader of our minority party telling our troops and the enemy that the enemy had defeated us in the war we are fighting ...
ReplyDeleteIn what parallel universe did that happen?
And just how are you "fighting"?
.
bart, my offer to waterboard you is offered with the most earnest and sincere intentions.
ReplyDeleteWe can get a lawyer to help us sign off on any applicable liability I might incur, and we'll add the desperately needed waterboard to the toolbelt of our war on extremism.
I know that you are brave enough to personally demonstrate the safety of waterboarding. You would not advocate it otherwise.
From what I've seen, Bart never stands a chance in here.
ReplyDeleteRespectfully, WRONGO!!!!!
The morons that think they need to get up on their little soapboxes and "refute" all his off-topic, inane, and factually incorrect "talking points" actually allow him to have more verbage here than glenn or anyone else.
Of course, NOW THAT CNN IS REPORTING THAT CHIMPU HAS ONLY A 32% APPROVAL RATING, the insanity of bart's "talking points" is obvious to all.
Yes still some idiots want to jump up on their little soapboxes...
We are talking about a pResident that is approaching the support that nixon had when he was forced to resign!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And the chimperor was once an "all-time" most popular pResident -- about 90 percent after exploiting 9/11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My how the mighty have fallen... and there is no end in sight. The latest revelations about the misuse of intellegence and the lies that were behind the Iraq war haven't even hit the fan yet.
Could we see another resignation by August? Stay tuned....
BUT PLEASE DON'T FEEL YOU NEED TO GET UP ON TINY LITTLE SOAPBOXES TO ENGAGE A TROLL THAT IS SUPPORTING A CHIMPEROR THAT IS SUPPORTED BY LESS THAN 1/3 OF ALL AMERICANS!
Another slow learning curve. That was so last millenium. Those days are over. You reap what you sow. Eat it, bitches.
ReplyDeleteWhat am I reaping exactly? Bush won't get impeached. And, besides, I'll be glad when his term is up. But here's something to think about: just because Bush's poll numbers stink, it doesn't follow that this country will be voting for Markos's preferred candidate in '08. The Bush defectors will vote for McCain, Rudy G., or possibly Hillary. You know, people ARE capable of both a distaste for Bush and a tough-on-Islamofascism, pro-civil liberty and fiscal responsibility approach.
Bart's fax machine is really cooking. The latest talking points are longer and more frantic than usual. Bush has hit 32% in the latest CNN poll.
ReplyDeleteI LOVE IT!!!!
Like telling more lies and insulting the vast majority of Americans is going to improve chimpy's support. LOL!!!
Keep it up bart and all your repug morons! Your inane talking points, lies, and insulting tone are going to put the final nail in the chimperor's stolen pResidency!
The Hidden Imam said...
ReplyDeleteI'm peeing myself!
The Hidden Imam thinks that most Americans are too stupid to weigh a variety of issues at the polls.
The Hidden Imam goes on peeing himself during his daymares about islamofascists and commies.
"The Dog" and "The Hidden Imam" complain that those of us on the Left are always drawing comparisons between the Bush Administration and the fascism practiced by Adolf Hitler's Third Reich.
ReplyDeleteHere's a newsflash for you boys: The shoes fit, they're ugly, and you and your party proudly put them on your goose-stepping feet.
Don't complain now because we've correctly pointed-out that you and yours have chosen to model yourselves on one of human history's least popular, most abhorrent sociopolitical movements.
You doth protest too much.
George "Hitler" Bush. Elected US President.
ReplyDeleteAssumed power after highly suspicious election. Cemented power after highly suspicious "terrorist" attack. Neglected security measures that would have prevented attack and thus prevented the highly suspicious and hugely profitable "War on Terror." As Commander In Chief, possesses huge standing army, navy, air force and thousands of nukes at his disposal. Approval rate 33%. Curtailed individual right of US citizens, while neglecting domestic security of New Orleans and Mississippi. Directed huge sums spent instead on military-industrial-security sector of federal government and continuous military actions.
Countries conquered: Two
Continents threatened: All
-----------------------------------
What's the matter, bart and troll gang, thought we were fighting these wars to spread democracy.
Less than 1/3 of America supports the smirking chimp -- why don't you support democracy at home before we start wars of conquest!
OOOPS, I mistated chimpy's support in my last post -- IT IS ONLY 32% AND TAKING THE MARGIN OF ERROR INTO ACCOUNT, COULD BE SIGNIFICANTLY LESS THAN 30%!!!!!
ReplyDeleteThis are nixonian numbers!!!!!
The Hidden Imam writes: The Bush defectors will vote for McCain, Rudy G., or possibly Hillary. You know, people ARE capable of both a distaste for Bush and a tough-on-Islamofascism, pro-civil liberty and fiscal responsibility approach.
ReplyDeleteI largely agree with you, but here is the thing. Rudy is a former prosecutor, and much as I admire what he did for NYC, he is a goddam tyrant (how he got the NYC job done, no doubt). I don't feel very easy about his stepping into an Executive office in which the way has been paved to institutionalize Yoo theories of power. His personality type would take to that like the proverbial duck to water.
And, we really do need some gridlock. It just has not been healthy for one party to control all of the federal govt. So I think we need some Democrats voted in.
These are the front lines right here, folks. The real threat to freedom and democracy comes from Washington D.C. So Hugh Halfwit is only half right.
ReplyDeleteThe Internet Freedom Fight: A Round-Up
Congress Is Giving Away the Internet, and You Won't Like Who Gets It
This puts the right blogosphere in kind of a bind. Which way do they jump on this? The mighty wurlitzer that they are used to echoing, the extremely right biased MSM, is probably history and the left owns the net.
Responding to anonymous at 7:02PM:
ReplyDeleteWith respect, there is a reason some of us choose to respond to Bart, the anonymous moral midget, the Dog and the rest. A few reasons, actually.
First, there is the general principle that alternative viewpoints can and should be engaged, as respectfully and factually as possible. This is what separates ourselves from the cast on the right-side of the dial who cannot tolerate dissent or even intelligent discussion.
Second, in doing so we test our own assumptions and understanding of issues, expanding out own understanding and recognizing where it falls short. We can then educate ourselves as completely as possible and plug in the gaps in our arguments.
Third, its just plain fun to deconstruct the latest idiocy from these guys. Often its so criminally easy one almost feels a tad guilty in doing it.
Finally, it gets back to the principle of contesting these barely-intelligible viewpoints in every media and forum available. I doubt any of us seriously think this will persuade any of our contrarians here, but perhaps some of the more casual readers will come away with a better understanding of the issues discussed than if we just left these guys alone and unchallenged.
At least that's why I do it. Anyone have different motivations?
Brownshirt
ReplyDeleteapartchik
republican
tool
An interesting tidbit about neo-con thinking was recently revealed by Francis Fukuyama. He says that during the 1990s "There was actually a deliberate search for an enemy because they felt that the Republican Party didn't do as well" when foreign policy wasn't on the issue agenda. The obvious candidates were either China or something relating to Islamic fundamentalism and, as Fukuyama notes, what they came up with was China. Then 9/11 changed things around, at least for a few years.
ReplyDeleteNow I agree with Matt Yglesias that this statement reveals a great deal about the mentality that’s been guiding Bush’s foreign policy for the last few years. I also think that Glenn's post demonstrates the extent that this same mentality is also being turned upon American citizens and the Democratic Party who they now also regard as “the enemy.”
Same mentality, different focus.
Rudy is a former prosecutor, and much as I admire what he did for NYC, he is a goddam tyrant (how he got the NYC job done, no doubt). I don't feel very easy about his stepping into an Executive office in which the way has been paved to institutionalize Yoo theories of power.
ReplyDeleteFair point. He's a power consolidator type. McCain would be better. I think Mickey Kaus made the point that McCain, ultimately, wants to be loved by the mainstream, by Tim Russert, and by the press. And that this need of his will have a tempering effect on his itchy trigger finger.
Armchair psychology objections aside, I think there's some truth there.
There's a guiding principle behind everything the Republicans in power do. If you ask a right-winger, responses would include boldness, decisiveness, leadership. But those, to be blunt, aren't it. No, everything Republicans do - and have done since President Bush took office - can be explained away in one word.
ReplyDeletePanic.
Think about it for a moment. Look at the headlines and you can't escape it. Immigration. Iran. Constitutional bans on gay marriage and flag burning. Bush defending his positions. Congressional Republicans distancing themselves from their president. No matter where you turn, you're confronted with a panicked party gambling with America's future at a time when serious, capable leadership is most needed.
Republican panic is at the heart of the Iran debate. If you've been paying attention the last few weeks, you've no doubt witnessed the explosion of rhetoric aimed at two things. One, convincing Americans that Iran poses an immediate, grave threat. Two, convincing Iranians that pursuing a nuclear program is tantamount to invited destruction. That said, however, if you've been paying attention, you've also no doubt witnessed a sidestepping of reality mirroring the run-up to the war in Iraq. Not only are administration claims as to the direness of the Iranian threat unfounded, but it's also clear that the powers that be are bent on a military solution when a diplomatic one is possible.
Again, we find ourselves on the eve of a pre-emptive attack on another nation. Only this time, the administration's needless, fearful urgency will have far worse implications than it did in Iraq. Why attack now? Why now, when it's clear that Iran is years away from posing the threat the administration would have us fear? Why now, when our military is already overextended in Iraq? Why now, when the administration's staunchest allies are backing away from the military option and former generals are asking for Donald Rumsfeld's job?
Panic, that's why. Panic over nosediving popular support. Panic over the threat of a disastrous Republican defeat this fall. Panic over maintaining control of the oil supply. Panic over the specter of a more prosperous Iran being harder to overthrow. What was once a position of strength with Iran has evolved into a position of weakness. And this transformation has caused a panic-stricken administration to lead us to the brink of war.
Panic is also at the heart of the immigration debate. While racism is most definitely at play, so, too, is a panicked reaction to the inflated threat of terrorism. Republicans have turned a complex issue into yet another simplistic, wrong-headed interpretation of reality. All because Republicans can't govern without using fear and bigotry to shape the debate.
If the administration really wanted to do something about the terror threat, perhaps they would have more closely questioned the Dubai ports deal. Or done more to secure America's nuclear and chemical plants, as well as other vulnerable facilities. Or not outed an undercover CIA operative whose job it was to help prevent the spread of weapons of mass destruction.
Instead of doing those things, however, they panicked. They saw another chance to scare Americans into irrational action and they exploited it. They knew that nothing plays better with their base than fear, so they decided to turn people seeking a better life into terrorists seeking to destroy our way of life. What could have been an opportunity to debate a hot-button issue in a rational manner has now become anything but. All because Republicans couldn't help themselves.
Republicans, if you think about it, are a rather fearful bunch. Afraid of change, they fight it, embracing dying models while scrambling to legislate their morality on the rest of us. Don't look for that trend to change this year, as Congressional Republicans are planning on bringing gay marriage bans, anti-flag burning legislation and further abortion restrictions to a vote.
Think of the pressing issues America faces. Millions without health insurance. A vanishing middle class. Exploding gas prices. The quagmire in Iraq. Yet, Republicans would rather focus on flag burning? Because, apparently, there's no greater threat to American democracy than a burning flag. Or two loving people getting married. Or women exercising control over their own bodies.
In reality, the threat that worries Republicans most is losing their majority. They're not blind. They see the same numbers Democrats do. So, like everything else, they're panicking. Worried about what may already be inevitable, Republicans are doing what comes naturally: They're pandering to their base. Shouldn't our government serve every American, not just an extremist minority?
Largely, Republican voters view their elected officials the same way young children see their parents. Children look to their parents, whom they see as invincible, to protect them from the big, bad monsters under their bed. However, elected Republicans, while trying to promote the view of Republican-leaders-as-strong-parents, adhere more closely to the worldview of a panic-stricken child.
There's a lot to be said for characterizing Republicans as weak. It's true, but why not take it a step further? Anyone can suffer moments of weakness. It's how you respond to weakness that characterizes true leadership. Republicans are responding to their weakness by panicking. Think of everything that's happened since September 11. Hard to find any administration action not done out of panic, isn't it?
The "Republicans panic" frame works for several reasons. It works because the charge is impossible to rebut without sounding defensive. It works because so many administration actions fit the panic narrative. It works because everyone can relate to so basic a response. People know panic. And people dislike it.
Americans want a lot of things out of their leaders. They want honesty. They want integrity. They want ability. What Americans don't want is panic. But panic, sadly, is what they're getting in massive doses from the Republican Party. In these challenging times, is panic the trait you want most associated with the party in power? I doubt it.
Rudy! The Republican mayor of New York City, the Mafia-born-and-bred Rudolf Giuliani (whose father spent years in Sing Sing prison for armed robbery and had an uncle gunned down by the FBI and another uncle running New York state's largest car-theft ring)? Yeah, after Bush, he might be a breath of fresh air!
ReplyDeleteBwahahahaha!
In your dreams!
Glenn Greenwald said:
ReplyDeletemaybe just membership in the "international answer or the socialist workers party or something similar."
Since both organizations publicly support as part of their policy positions enemies of the USA like North Korea, yes mere membership in such organizations is subversive. It is subversive to join organizations dedicated to to the overthrow and destruction of the republic, its institutions and freedoms. The fact that you don't think so, indicates more about you and your thinking than that of the "dog".
Says the "Dog"
Hey BART!!!!!
ReplyDeleteLook at the chimperor's 32% approval rating this way:
Look at it this way -- 5 percent of the US population directly benefits from this criminal administration. They are the "super-rich" that pay the same tax rate as the disappearing "middle class" -- and since they actually hide their income, they pay much less.
Then remember, approximately 20 percent of Americans THINK they are in the upper 5 percent. Remember, taking the margin of error into account, chimpy's support could be in the 20's.
Given the way the lying liars in the MSM have presented polls in the past, 32 percent is probably too high. Remember, these are the same people that said he was going to win 2004 by a landslide (even though exit polls prove that he lost that election).
So if 20 percent of chimpy's support is guaranteed because people either directly benefit or think they are the beneficiaries, we are seeing something remarkable.
The number of "kool-aiders" is now only 12 percent or less!
Now tell me all about how much you value DEMOCRACY, you moron!
Say Glenn,
ReplyDeleteThinking about it, I used to think you just inherited a bunch of money and spend a lot of leisure time in Brazil. Now I'm beginning to think you spend time there formenting communist revolutions and the destruction of freedom, liberty, and private property ownership in Brazil?
hmmmmm.......
Says the "Dog"
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteBoy that was really a lot of self-importance, egotistical crap; but if you really think you have the answers...
Just saying that sometimes this is more BART's blog then glenn cuz of people like you that jump up on tiny little soapboxes.
Christ, only 32% of the population supports this moron...
So your reason for refuting the obvious is?
Please run, Rudy. Please do.
ReplyDeleteRudy: An Investigative Biography of Rudolph Giuliani
NEW YORK: A biography of Mayor Rudolph Giuliani claims several members of his family had ties to the New York mobs.
The book, :Rudy: An Investigative Biography of Rudolph Giuliani" was written by Village Voice reporter Wayne Barrett and portions of it were printed in this week's Voice.
Barrett writes that Giuliani's father, Harold, pleaded guilty and served 18 months in prison for holding up a milkman at gunpoint in the 1930s and that in the early 1960s, Harold, his brother and a cousin took part in a gunfight on a Brooklyn Street.
The uncle, Leo D'Avanzo, was a mob-connected loanshark, the book says. He, his son Lewis and the mayor's father had gone looking for a mobster with whom they were having a loan-sharking dispute, the book said. There apparently were no injuries in the ensuing exchange of gunfire, the book said.
Lewis D'Avanzo, Leo's son, was, the book claims, a mob associate who specialized in stolen vehicles, and was linked by the FBI to several underworld murders. He was killed by FBI agents in Brooklyn in 1977.
Another Giuliani cousin, Joan Ellen D'Avanzo, who was raised in the same house as Giuliani, became an addict and was beaten to death in 1973, according to the book.
The mayor did not dispute claims made by the book but said "I think I'll stand on my record as having prosecuted or put in prison more members of the Mafia than probably any US attorney in history, having been threatened with death by them at least three times -- four times seriously going back to when I was an assistant US attorney. If that's not enough to remove the Mafia prejudice than there's probably nothing you could do to remove it. Is there anybody who's done more to end the influence of the Mafia than me?"
The Hidden Imam said...
ReplyDeleteArmchair psychology objections aside, I think there's some truth there.
Snort! I think you and "the dog" have half a brain cell between you.
The Dog;
ReplyDeleteLet me pre-empt (I know you approve of this policy) Glenn here. When did he ever mention Brazil? Can't you even track who you're talking to?
I'm the brazilian here. And by the way, I own a publishing company that produces trade magazines. I pay salaries, I don't receive them. Hardly a communist plant, but please don't let that stop you from calling me a commie anyway. I don't want to complicate your life.
>You know, people ARE capable of both a distaste for Bush and a tough-on-Islamofascism, pro-civil liberty and fiscal responsibility approach.<
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to figure this out. The issues I care about in order are 1> Pro-civil liberty
2> Pro Fiscal responsiblity
3> Trying figure out what the HELL anybody means by "islamofascism"
4> Adamant opposition to Bush due to his inabilty to differentiate between terrorists who are still managing to bomb targets around the world on a weekly basis and has-been dictators who were disarmed in 1993 and represented no threat to US interests except their continued insistence on not being overthrown by the CIA.
From anonymous at 7:35PM:
ReplyDelete"Just saying that sometimes this is more BART's blog then glenn cuz of people like you that jump up on tiny little soapboxes."
Glenn welcomes the comments. The fact some comments generate extraneous discussion is only to be expected.
"Christ, only 32% of the population supports this moron..."
Actually I'd guess its more like 5% of the overall population. These polls just likely catch part of that tiny population while they're at home.
"So your reason for refuting the obvious is?"
(A) The principle to contest these opinions wherever possible, and (B) because its fun.
I leave the self-importance and arrogance to the contrarians.
I cannot comment on the topic of Glenn's post today, because although I think it is his best post yet, it is also his most upsetting because it is both frightening, and frighteningly true.
ReplyDeleteAlso his post goes beyond the political scene. It speaks to human nature. Not the nature of all human beings, but a big enough sub-division, and maybe the same sub-division who has always, throughout history, been most interested in seeking power and thereby controlling the lives of those they rule.
I address a different issue , but one which, in my mind, is actually related.
How are evil people able to so often be the ones which the good people themselves elect to govern them?
One reason, I believe, is that good people assume others are more or less good. They give others a pass. And that is why they fail to use their capacity for critical reasoning to examine the actual facts and to evaluate all the evidence which might suggest things are not what they first appear to be.
A detective walks into a deserted cabin in the desert, and he finds a dead man hanging high from the rafters with a noose around his neck. Problem is there is nothing else in the room, and he observes there was nothing he could stand on to have hoisted himself high enough up to have been able to hang himself. No furniture, no chair, no anything.
The detective discovers there is nobody around for miles except a trailor nearby in which lives a very strong, very tall mildly retarded person who he finds out had a grievance against the dead man.
All other possible suspects are eliminated for one reason or another. It's definitive that either the man committed suicide, or the guy living in the trailer killed him and made it look like a suicide.
There's a trial and you are on the jury. The jury is allowed to visit the scene of the crime before coming up with its verdict. Do you convict, based on circumstantial evidence, or do you acquit?
Which takes me to Mary McCarthy and Glenn's post. All of the facts we are reading and have read could be true, or there could be other facts which might point to a whole different scenario.
For instance, as implausible as it may seem, she could actually be working with the government instead of trying to expose its grievous wrongdoing. If this were the case, then an argument could be developed that the net effect of this whole story will be to frighteningly advance all of the terrifying ways in which the government is attempting to shroud its most alarming activities in a cloak of secrecy. The use of the "chilling effect" tactic to not only
"shut up" any witnesses to their crimes (stop whistleblowers from leaking damaging information) or discourage them from coming forward (people will want you to be imprisoned---people will say you are a traitor, and you know the punishment for treason) is the most important weapon they have at their disposal. As it succeeds, the public accepts new and more draconian measures to silence all potential "witnesses." Things like "vetting" any book or article written by former employees which does not contain information which is either classified or information which until this time has ever been forbidden from being published.
Then you extend that to allow the government to requisition the private papers of an investigative journalist whose notes are mostly about stories which happened twenty or thirty years ago. Like Jack Anderson.
Lie detector tests do not work. The reason they are such an important and effective tool in law enforcement is that the lay public does not know they do not work. The lay public reads in the National Enquirer the results of this or that lie detector test "proving" or "disproving" the guilt of certain persons based upon their performances when given lie detector tests and comes to accept lie detector tests are reliable. The lay public may not even know that historically in this country, the "results" of lie detector tests are not even permitted into evidence because the courts recognized they are so unreliable. Etc.
But the people who work at the CIA know lie detector tests do not work. It's their business to know that.
We are reading that Mary McCarthy failed a lie detector test and was thus led to "confess" that she was the leaker who provided Dana Priest with the information for her Pulitzer Prize winning article which asserted there are certain unspecified secret detention camps at various secret locations abroad. We are reading that everyone, even the very top people at the CIA, are now being given lie detector tests to determine if they themselves have been doing any leaking.
And, lay people and Warriors against Islamofascism, if even they are willing to submit to lie detector tests, why should anyone object if the government decides it wants to administer those tests to whole new groups of employees at other agencies, maybe even business or newspapers which have nothing to do with government? Maybe even to certain bloggers who break new stories? Maybe even to people who believe lie detector tests do in fact work and are thus persuaded not to do certain things like leak information about crimes they have stumbled upon for fear of being given lie detector tests and thereby being exposed and punished, or even tried for "treason"?
For fear of the hate-driven (is that really what it is, or are they just playing their role in helping to get all these polices in place) "right wing" Internet and the "right wing" pundits calling for their heads?
Of course, this "alternate" possibility cannot really be true. After all the Democrats and the Republican leaderships are actually two very different groups, and if a person is shown to be partisan to one of those groups, they would obviously not be working with the other group.
Especially someone who was so partisan she even donated money to the other Party.
The Democrats and the Republican leaderships are two different groups. Aren't they?
Just musing.
So, did the guy in the cabin hang himself or was he murdered?
3> Trying figure out what the HELL anybody means by "islamofascism"
ReplyDeleteThose from the Arab/Islamic world hellbent on overthrowing the existing world order led by the U.S. through any and all means, including, and especially, large-scale violence, in order to redress, and exact revenge for, the grievances of the Arab/Islamic world dating back from the decline of the Islamic empire to the present day.
Personally, I reject any hard distinctions between "religious" and "secular." The pan-Arabism of the Baathists derives from the same sentiments driving the Islamists today. Though there are differences, to be sure, both religious and "secular" still share the same cultural and historical collective memory and sense of grievance and victimhood.
Paul Berman wrote well on the subject in his book, "Terror and Liberalism." I highly recommend it. And, for what it's worth, Berman is a staunch liberal.
It would well serve all of us to take another hard look at our enemy...
ReplyDeleteOn a tape broadcast by al Jazera, bin Laden called for Islamic terrorists to murder Western civilians and to assist in the genocide of black Christian and Animists in Sudan.
Almost as if in response, terrorists slaughtered dozens of tourists in Egypt for being infidels.
And you are worried about whether stress positions and water boarding intended to get information to stop the next slaughter are too hard on these animals?
Wake up people. This is not a game. The Islamic Fascists want to murder you like the Nazis did the Jews.
An interesting tidbit about neo-con thinking was recently revealed by Francis Fukuyama. He says that during the 1990s "There was actually a deliberate search for an enemy because they felt that the Republican Party didn't do as well" when foreign policy wasn't on the issue agenda. The obvious candidates were either China or something relating to Islamic fundamentalism and, as Fukuyama notes, what they came up with was China. Then 9/11 changed things around, at least for a few years.
ReplyDeleteFukuyama is still spinning his utterly hilarious claim that history and therefore wars had somehow ended with the fall of the Communists.
Apparently, he didn't get the "end of history wrong." Instead, the evil GOP invented Islamic Fascism and 9/11 so they could win elections.
Pathetic. Just admit you were wrong...
Bart said:
ReplyDeleteVestibulum lacus purus (32%), aliquam a, blandit a, fringilla ullamcorper, sapien. Cras sollicitudin mollis turpis. Donec nonummy (32%), quam in nisi. Cum sociis natoque (32%), penatibus et magnis (32%), dis parturient montes, nascetur (32%), ridiculus mus. Vestibulum s(32%), celerisque ligula (32%), non nibh. Nulla libero. Quisque ut (32%), ede. Sed vestibulum, orci (32%), sed tincidunt sollicitudin, (32%), pede pede (32%), ornare eros, a congue diam (32%), velit a magna. Ut molestie (32%), neque id risus. Curabitur (32%), ac augue. Fusce eleifend (32%), imperdiet ante. Duis arcu (32%), nulla, eleifend sed, vehicula (32%), vitae, molestie (32%), vestibulum, dolor. Integer (32%), eleifend.
Ut eu dui. (32%), Nam eget dui. Aenean interdum. Integer lacinia. Nunc id (32%), orci. Mauris tempor odio ut magna. Nunc porttitor consequat (32%), est. Integer pede lacus, hendrerit ut, congue vel, dignissim l(32%), aoreet, pede. Pellentesque ornare iaculis est. Aliquam sit amet leo.
Phasellus viverra (32%), metus quis lectus. Donec nibh. Donec tellus massa, (32%), placerat nec, pretium vel, aliquam a, dui. Aenean euismod pulvinar felis. Suspendisse (32%), potenti. Sed nonummy mauris ut arcu. Phasellus ut massa ut (32%), neque dapibus placerat. Integer dolor. Aenean id quam et nibh (32%), vulputate nonummy. Sed risus nisl, dapibus sed, porttitor vitae, porta pulvinar, justo. (32%), Proin convallis nunc vel leo. Nam ut augue. Integer ornare ligula non turpis. Sed (32%), congue. Suspendisse commodo, leo ut aliquam dignissim, tortor sapien ultrices nulla, (32%), vitae iaculis arcu nibh vel enim. Pellentesque fermentum tristique leo. Integer mi. Cum (32%), sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Morbi (32%), rhoncus mi convallis quam.
Integer pharetra (32%), mauris facilisis dui. Phasellus et risus at nulla varius luctus. Sed in urna. Maecenas (32%), dapibus urna eu quam. Vivamus accumsan felis eget elit. Morbi velit. Praesent tellus orci, (32%), aliquam non, sodales eget, tincidunt in, erat. Vestibulum auctor diam sit amet diam. Aenean (32%), leo. Cras imperdiet mattis eros. Praesent condimentum odio id tellus. Integer (32%), dapibus mi sed dui. Cras velit ligula, posuere non, tincidunt eget, (32%), nonummy ac, augue.
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yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteand what part of MINORITY SUPPORT CHIMPY AND HIS TALKING POINTS (i.e. BART) don't you understand!
From Bart at 8:23PM:
ReplyDelete"On a tape broadcast by al Jazera, bin Laden called for Islamic terrorists to murder Western civilians and to assist in the genocide of black Christian and Animists in Sudan."
Hm-hm? And this is a surprise because...why? Another Bin Laden tape was inevitable.
"Almost as if in response, terrorists slaughtered dozens of tourists in Egypt for being infidels."
You're referring to the apparently coordinated bombing Dahab a few hours ago, yes?
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/egypt
Given no group has yet claimed responsibility and the full extent of the casualties and damage hasn't been determined, never mind if the foreign nationals there were the intended targets, it may be a tad premature (as usual) to assign responsibility to Bin Laden's tape.
"And you are worried about whether stress positions and water boarding intended to get information to stop the next slaughter are too hard on these animals?"
Again, you miss the larger issue. The United States advocating the same policies and practices we once condemned eliminates any moral standing we previously enjoyed. As such, we provide all the argument Bin Laden and his ilk need to further demonize us and recruit yet another generation of fighters against us.
Is that really so difficult to understand?
"Wake up people. This is not a game. The Islamic Fascists want to murder you like the Nazis did the Jews."
Evidentially, it really *is* that difficult to understand.
Look, borrowing Rummy's catchy phraseology doesn't substitute serious analysis, Bart. And I think we all agree this isn't a game and never was; the Bush Administration simply doesn't want to treat it any other way, unfortunately.
The reality is that yes, this network does want to cause us as much damage and kill as many Americans as possible. The fact there is no central registry of the network's membership make it nearly impossible to track or stop.
The sad part is that virtually every policy pursued by the Bush Administration (from the incomplete action in Afghansitan, the doomed Iraq expedition, the continued support of autocratic regimes throughout Central Asia and the Middle East) virtually confirms everything Bin Laden has said about us, alienated much of the international community precisely when we actually need their help, and practically ensure a steady stream of volunteers eager to replenish its ranks.
Tell me again what the Administration's plan is for winning this 'war' of their's?
phd9 writes Torture? Secret prisons? People being disappeared without due process?
ReplyDeleteActually, if they hadn't engaged in such outrageous crimes they would be even more dangerous.
(I say this with all due respect to all the tragic victims of these heinous activities.)
They simply went too far. That is why they are now going to be able to be stopped.
Despots never see the line in the sand over which they should not step. They've become blinded by their own power. Eventually, they all go marching full speed into their own particular Waterloos.
Even so, no matter what small percentage of the entire population uses the Internet for its information, I still think if the Internet didn't exist, we'd all be sunk.
It certainly has diluted Bushco's energies. Maybe that's why there was and is nobody around to deal with the Katrinas.
Gee bart, 32% you 32% have 32% some 32% very 32% compelling 32% points 32% there.
ReplyDeleteI 32% and 32% sure 32% that 32% the 32% chimperor 32% will 32% again 32% be 32% an 32% extremely 32% popular 32% "decider".
If 32% only 32% you 32% could 32% just 32% copy 32% and 32% paste 32% enought 32% talking 32% points 32% on 32% all 32% the 32% blogs 32%.
I 32% am 32% convinced 32% the 32% smirking 32% chimp 32% would 32% again 32% have 32% majority 32% support.
Too 32% bad 32% the 32% lies 32% that 32% you 32% and 32% the 32%chimp 32% spread 32% about 32% Iraq 32% are 32% just 32% starting 32% to 32% hit 32% the 32% MSM.
Keep 32% trolling 32% here 32%. Obviously, 32% the 32% talking 32% points 32% you 32% constantly 32% dump 32% into 32% these 32% threads 32% are 32% gaining 32% traction 32%.
Too 32% bad 32% you 32% and 32% the 32% repugs 32% represent 32% such 32% a 32% pathetic 32% minority 32% of 32% Americans.
Did 32%you 32%see 32%the 32%latest 32%poll 32%numbers 32%for 32%the 32%chimperor?
I could go on and on but I thought that 4 of the first 5 posts was enough to make the point.
ReplyDeleteYes. So did I. Which is why I immediately knew that they were posted there for a reason. Probably by you or one of your buddies.
The posters on this site who represent many different viewpoints come to know over time which posters to trust. And which to not trust.
Transparent attempts by poseurs to sabatoge the underlying message of this blog are just that: transparent.
yankeependragon:
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 8:23PM: "On a tape broadcast by al Jazera, bin Laden called for Islamic terrorists to murder Western civilians and to assist in the genocide of black Christian and Animists in Sudan."
Hm-hm? And this is a surprise because...why?
It is no surprise to those of us who are capable of identifying the enemy.
"Almost as if in response, terrorists slaughtered dozens of tourists in Egypt for being infidels."
You're referring to the apparently coordinated bombing Dahab a few hours ago, yes?
Given no group has yet claimed responsibility and the full extent of the casualties and damage hasn't been determined, never mind if the foreign nationals there were the intended targets, it may be a tad premature (as usual) to assign responsibility to Bin Laden's tape.
Which part of "almost as if in response" did you not understand?
BTW, the Egyptian Islamic fascist movement headed by Zawahiri were the people responsible for the first WTC attack before they joined with al Qaeda.
Bart: "And you are worried about whether stress positions and water boarding intended to get information to stop the next slaughter are too hard on these animals?"
Again, you miss the larger issue. The United States advocating the same policies and practices we once condemned eliminates any moral standing we previously enjoyed...As such, we provide all the argument Bin Laden and his ilk need to further demonize us and recruit yet another generation of fighters against us.
This so called "moral standing" which you claim existed before Bush did not stop al Qaeda's rise in the 90s nor did it stop them from attacking us repeatedly.
However, since we have lost this so called "moral standing" by invading the countries where the enemy lives, laying waste to the enemy and by stopping playing games with the captured enemy survivors, al Qaeda has been decimated and our homeland has not been attacked.
I'll take a little less of the weakness you call "moral standing" and a little more of the respect and fear of the enemy we have earned since 9/11.
HWSNBN tries to hijack the thread:
ReplyDelete[HWSNBN]: Do you have an actual example of these "broad definitions?" The crimes of which these alleged perps are accused are specifically spelled out in the US Code.
Just to pick one, what was the "crime" committed by Howard Dean that is punishable by death by hanging?
Did I mention Howard Dean among the Perps?
No, but you're trying to hijack the thread and change the subject. As Glenn pointed out, the cast of "traitors" is numerous, and the suggested punishments severe. Do try to keep on topic ... unless your sole purpose here is to not keep on topic.
Cheers,
arne, good point about but those that raised their voices were "crazy", "enemies of the state" or worse but to protest, you don't have to call others traitors, flaming assholes, and call for their heads.
ReplyDeleteYou just have to express outrage at the policies which they endorse, expose their hidden agendas and their criminal, immoral activities by calling for fact-laden investigations, and then make your case to others for peaceful change.
Changes like pulling the figurative lever in "V is for Vendetta" which represents a voting lever.
Of course it would be nice if there was someone to vote for who represented views which are different in the ways that matter to you than the views of those you want to vote against.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteGee bart, 32% you 32% have 32% some 32% very 32% compelling 32% points 32% there.
Funny, I didn't know Mr Bush was running for President in 2008.
However, I do know that the top three Elephants probably running in 2008 all trash any Donkey candidate.
Things will only get worse for you Donkeys.
The inexorable facts are that voters continue to flee Blue States for the Red Heartland and the Dems left behind are too self centered to even reproduce and will be literally dying off with the Baby Boom generation.
Demography is destiny.
Hypatia writes:
ReplyDeleteCultural preparedness for that [Scharansky's democratic utopia, if that's what he's really preaching] cannot just be ordered as from a menu at Denny's....
Nor at the point of a gun. Kind of misses the whole point, I'd say.
Cheers,
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN tries to hijack the thread:
How can I physically hijack this thread?
I pose facts and arguments to which you cannot or will not respond, but which you cannot avoid.
Because you cannot deal with the ideas presented, you have created this silly personality cult around me complete with utterly insane claims that I have been personally sent by Karl Rove to infiltrate your virtual people's paradise here.
While I am flattered by the attention, I would rather have you genuinely debate the issues.
HWSNBN is getting floridly phsychotic again:
ReplyDeleteThe nominal leader of our minority party telling our troops and the enemy that the enemy had defeated us in the war we are fighting is the kind of defeatism which the Supreme Court after WWII found was grounds to convict several Americans of treason.
Modern medicine is a wonderful thing. Someone ought to clue in HWSNBN's docs that they might titrate the Haldol up a notch.
Cheers,
The Hidden Imam:
ReplyDelete[quoting someone else]: 3> Trying figure out what the HELL anybody means by "islamofascism"
Those from the Arab/Islamic world hellbent on overthrowing the existing world order led by the U.S. through any and all means,...
You know. Like all those FemiNazis His Emanence keeps warning us about....
Cheers,
f jardim said:
ReplyDeleteLet me pre-empt (I know you approve of this policy) Glenn here. When did he ever mention Brazil? Can't you even track who you're talking to?
Can't you even bother to familiarize yourself with the blogs upon which you post? Tried reading the top of the first page of the blog? Maybe you could go to the top of the first page of Glenn's blog and use the search this page function of your browser for the word "Brazil".
Says the "Dog"
bart writes: The nominal leader of our minority party telling our troops and the enemy that the enemy had defeated us in the war we are fighting
ReplyDeleteWhat happened while I was looking elsewhere? The nominal leader of our minority party is now William F. Buckley?
f jardim:
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid I owe you a semi apology, because I see that Glenn has removed the part of his about me stuff at the top of his blog that talked about how he spent half his time in Brazil and the other half in New York. On the other hand I was never confused about you being from Brazil.
Says the "Dog"
Whooo 'Says the Dog'! Man am I impressed by this childish apellation.
ReplyDeleteThe Dog whoooooooeeeee!
Someone get a dog catcher and put this rabid mutt away.
hypatia writes Rudy is a former prosecutor, and much as I admire what he did for NYC, he is a goddam tyrant
ReplyDeleteBingo. Whatever his virtues as a Mayor were, he is to be feared, perhaps even more than Bush.
If he becomes the Republican candidate, I just hope Sen. Feingold is the Democratic candidiate.
Otherwise, it's "getting listings for villas on Greek Islands" time.
"The Dog" said:
ReplyDelete[edited for clarity, and gratuitous sliming snipped]
Thinking about it, I used to think....
There. That's better.
Cheers,
From Bart at 9:41PM:
ReplyDelete"Which part of "almost as if in response" did you not understand?"
I understand that blindly reacting to every bombing and attack, attributing everything bad that happens to Bin Laden direct influence (a) betrays our ignorance of the enemy itself, (b) elevates the man far beyond his actual level of influence, and (c)
practically ensures any response will likely worsen the situation, not secure us against future attacks.
"BTW, the Egyptian Islamic fascist movement headed by Zawahiri were the people responsible for the first WTC attack before they joined with al Qaeda."
All accounts I've read of the 1993 bombing indicate the cell involved was home-grown, not affiliated to Al Qaeda. Zawahiri was an independent operator then, with no connection Bin Laden's network. Kinda hard to guard against such things, isn't it? Easier to claim it was the work of outsiders, isn't it?
"This so called "moral standing" which you claim existed before Bush did not stop al Qaeda's rise in the 90s nor did it stop them from attacking us repeatedly."
It did however keep Bin Laden a relatively marginalized figure in the world, his network comparatively small and, dare I say it, 'unfashionable' to be part of.
By making him such a cult figure, making it look as if all the might of the United States can't stop or capture him, and behaving every bit as barbarically as he claims we are, the Bush Administration has managed to convince a lot of the disaffected youth in the world that perhaps the US isn't worth emulating.
"However, since we have lost this so called "moral standing" by invading the countries where the enemy lives, laying waste to the enemy and by stopping playing games with the captured enemy survivors, al Qaeda has been decimated and our homeland has not been attacked."
Nice try. Yes, we've invaded Afghanistan, but left the job undone and Bin Laden and his circle unmolested. The network itself has by accounts acutally become far looser and more diffuse than before, no longer directly under Bin Laden's control or direction.
Iraq, by contrast, it has been well-established had no direct or indirect ties to the network or Bin Laden. It has accomplished nothing other than cement the image of the United States as a rogue elephant that neither cares nor respects Islam.
And, yes, while there has been no new attacks on US soil as yet, keep in mind 9/11 was nearly a decade in preparation from conception to execution. Simply becuase nothing has happened yet doesn't mean another one isn't already underway.
Pray that I'm wrong.
"I'll take a little less of the weakness you call "moral standing" and a little more of the respect and fear of the enemy we have earned since 9/11."
I'll take my country behaving in a civilized and mature manner, not dancing to the tune of manchild with delusions of John Wayne and behaving like a banana republic, thank you.
And remind me again how the Bush Administration plans to win this 'war' they've gotten us into?
"undistinguished gentleman":
ReplyDeleteHow long until they "render" someone who is innocent?
What if it has happened already?
It has. See here and here.
Here's what the U.S. gummint response is.
Cheers,
Argh! Please, will people stop using the word "fascist" to describe Islamists and Bush? Jesus, for a student of politics it's positively excruciating the hear people talk about Bushitler and Islamofascism.
ReplyDeleteBush is an authoritarian, but he is not fascist.
The Islamists are theocratic, but they are not fascist.
There are some elements in the Republican Party, such as those who support the militia movements and the neo-confederate ideologues (whose supporters can be found in the senate, such as our dear Trent Lott), who could be described as "proto-fascist", in that in their terms of eliminationism and links to people who commit political violence, like Eric Rudolph or Timothy McVeigh, match the philosophy of the fascist, the need for "national renewal", the placing of action over thought and the scorning of "weakness" over a masculinised ideal. The Republican Party really should see themselves clean of that nest of vipers they've pitched their tent on. The Republican Party, however, as a whole, is not fascist.
ewo:
ReplyDeletearne, good point about "but those that raised their voices were 'crazy', 'enemies of the state' or worse" but to protest, you don't have to call others traitors, flaming assholes, and call for their heads.
Indeed. I have never done so. Seems that the RW has that end covered. Can I call them liars, hypocrites, and eedjits?
Cheers,
HWSNBN continues to dissemble:
ReplyDeleteI pose facts and arguments to which you cannot or will not respond, but which you cannot avoid.
Your ... ummm, "facts" ... ain't all facts there, chum. And your "arguments" are in fact "straw men".
Because you cannot deal with the ideas presented,...
Projection, troll, projection. Glenn's post was about the screaming foamers that have been calling for the head of Dean, the imprisonment of Kerry (who has far more medals than you could ever hope for, "REMF"), and the criminal prosecution of journalists (but not Mr. Novak, unsurprisingly). Ummm, waiddasecond ... you've been coming pretty damn close to screaming the same thing yourself. When you call for Cheney, Libby, and Rove to be drawn and quartered, I'll think about whether you might not be a complete flaming hypocrite as well as being your usual WATB.
Cheers,
They are the "super-rich" that pay the same tax rate as the disappearing "middle class"
ReplyDeleteIncorrect. We have progressive taxation in this country. A person living in NYC pays, between Federal, Local and City income, about 50% of his wages in taxes.
These are people at the top tax bracket, which I think kicks at a level most would not consider anything close to "super-rich."
You would prefer 70% as in England, which led to their brain drain and that country, whose empire once extended wide and far, becoming a second rate power?
Never confuse tax cheats protected by a corrupt government or the large globalist corporations who operate outside the laws which apply to the rest of us because they have government "protection" to do so with the tax laws themselves.
The tax rates are actually very progressive, and many who you deem "super-rich" (where's your cut-off---$300,00, $500,000--where?)are the victims of government sponsored avoidance of taxes (not to mention the monumental government stealing and wasting of tax dollars) in the same way someone making $75,000 a year is.
"Soak the rich" is a good slogan by which to ignite those who gets their kicks from class warfare.
However, the ability to start businesses, work hard, and benefit from the fruits of one's labor is what made this country into a superpower in the first place.
Everyone had at least a crack at it, although the playing field, because of fate, is never entirely level. But even a person arriving here as a Vietamese boat person with nothing but the clothes on his back had a chance to create some wealth. Most,in fact, did so as they were an unusually hard-working group of people who supported each other in their climb up the economic ladder. So did many other groups of immigrants for the same reasons, including the Chinese, the Indians, the Greeks, the Koreans and a good many others.
I see the Far Left now wants to substitute Capitalism as the enemy once the "Bushco fascists" are driven out of office.
This is popping up more and more frequently on the Internet, and Jane Smiley's newest blog on Huffington Post is a perfect example of that.
She is feeling rage against the Republicans who have now abandoned the Bush ship, not because they supported any of the real crimes about which Glenn writes today but because they refused to condemn "Capitalism" which apparently in her eyes is the real enemy.
Meanwhile, she obviously never even read the classic comic book version of Economics 101.
It's not so easy to make an honest buck in this world. To acquire many honest bucks, you must be not only fairly hardworking, but also somewhat intelligent. Or perhaps, very, very lucky. There's always that.
Most who have done so by other than sheer luck are not stupid enough to fall for too many "three card montes".
In fact, trying to use that particulate hat trick is exactly what could doom this country and assure that the wrong faux "capitalists" remain in office.
alan said:
ReplyDeleteBush is an authoritarian, but he is not fascist.
While not quite up there with the A-team yet, it's a matter of degree.
Doesn't bother you in the least that the corporate world seems to be lining up behind Dubya no matter what his latest excesses are? Then there's the recent increasing attacks on any thing resembling a free and independent media. And spying. And torture. And imprisonment without trial. Perhaps you can tell me how Dubya can be reliably distinguished from an "actual fascist"....
Cheers,
9:13 "anon".
ReplyDeleteNot that is really, really funny :)
Thanks for the enormous laugh!
arne. Indeed. I have never done so.
ReplyDeleteOh, I am sorry. I meant "you" in the general sense, referring to the first posters on this site, and not you in the specific sense.
I know you do not do that. I am sorry I wasn't clearer in what I wrote.
Cheers!
In order to have a comparison, we first need to assume Ms. McCarthy's guilt, as she has denied that she was the source of leak.
ReplyDeleteShe did? Has she released a statement?
Re: The Battle to Control the Internet.
ReplyDeleteExplaining the Players in the Fight: It's a corporate cartel with bought and paid lobbyists versus a free market and citizens groups.
Wait. Boo. Jane Smiley and the Lefties hate free markets. They are what caused the destruction of America, dontchaknow?
If these plans to control the Internet proceed, it won't be the "Left" who controls the Internet, it will be the "hand in hand with Big Government Corporatist Right."
I hate to see the Internet go, as I think it is going to do, but part of me will be laughing at the stupidity of all these "hate the rich" and "hate free markets" people who understand nothing about Capitalism.
Their ignorance is what has allowed Real Captitalism to be swallowed up by Big Government Corporatist Socialist America.
They won't ever even realize that, however. They are not very long on any in depth understanding of economics. Most of their hearts are often in the right places, but their minds are, unfortunately, limited.
Don't come crying about "free markets", lefties, when you have spent half your energy trying to squash them. They are not something you pick up when you need them. Once they're gone, they're gone forever.
Reep what you sow.
Post of the Night goes to
ReplyDeleteEWO said...
bart writes: The nominal leader of our minority party telling our troops and the enemy that the enemy had defeated us in the war we are fighting
What happened while I was looking elsewhere? The nominal leader of our minority party is now William F. Buckley?
Followed Closely By...
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
Gee bart, 32% you 32% have 32% some 32% very 32% compelling 32% points 32% there.
armagednouthere, every day when I read your posts, I feel better and better about my first (and only so far) appointment to my Cabinet, when I chose you as Secretary of State.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad to see you have a good sense of humor, because you are going to need it in your new position :)
Meanwhile, back at the ranch:
Iran's nuclear programme is the most serious threat faced by Jews since the Nazi holocaust, Israel's defence minister has said.
Mofaz: 'Pressure must be applied on the Iranians'
Shaul Mofaz said: "Of all the threats we face, Iran is the biggest. The world must not wait. It must do everything necessary on a diplomatic level in order to stop its nuclear activity."
He added: "Since Hitler we have not faced such a threat."
Am I the only one who is getting really, really tired with all this? The Turks annihiliated literally 50% of the Armenians, and we hardly ever hear a word about that.
Haven't we had enough of this Hitler, Hitler, Hitler stuff from Israel? It's all they ever talk about.
I am sure Iran feels its own biggest threat is Israel. At least they would if the US hadn't formed such a blood alliance with, and only with, Israel.
Israel! Please listen! Pick up the phone and work out some kind of deal with Iran yourself. You are more than smart enough to do so, and the majority of citizens in your own country wish you would do just that.
This endless warmongering in the Middle East has been going on for over half a century. It's time for a little peace for a change.
EWO said... blah blah blah at 3:00 AM....
ReplyDeleteSo this is thread where the long polemic went. Wingnut!
Bart says...Funny, I didn't know Mr Bush was running for President in 2008.
You only wish he was.
However, I do know that the top three Elephants probably running in 2008 all trash any Donkey candidate.
Rah! Rah! Sis Boom Bah! Who are the top 3 anyway? McCain... and McCain and...
Things will only get worse for you Donkeys.
This is projection if I've ever seen it.
The inexorable facts are that voters continue to flee Blue States for the Red Heartland...
Well this part is true. My best friends moved to Texas from CA, but they brought their politics with them. They didn't become Republicans I asure you.
and the Dems left behind are too self centered to even reproduce and will be literally dying off with the Baby Boom generation.
Ya think? I thought we were all too promiscuous, and having baby welfare crack princesses and stuff so they could grow up to be Queen for a day. You guys gotta get your story straight. It's a good thing you are a lawyer. As a suspect in custody, you'd fry yourself if you talked this much, and you do love to hear yourself talk, don't you?
Demography is destiny.
No, it's not. Longman is as much of a snake oil salesman as Berman, or you for that matter. You guys wet yourselves so much you probably have diaper rash. Chafe much? Timing is everything, Bart, and you will find that you may have been better served to pull this little caper off AFTER the boomers had died out. Mark my words, but it's to late now. premature ejaculation and dry firing is another problem righties seem to have, and Bob Dole's erectile dysfunction.
The amount of bile spewed by the right is in direct perportion to the trouble the president is in as well as how personally invested they are in him.
ReplyDeleteThe more trouble he is in, the more they put their faith/trust in him the more they spew. They can't admit he was wrong/stupid/incompetent so they channel that into spewing the bile.