Friday, April 28, 2006

Using generalizations to describe political groups

Whenever I write a post about the tactics and behaviors of Bush defenders, some pro-Bush bloggers invariably write responses accusing me of unfairly generalizing, trafficking in stereotypes and prejudices, and exhibiting anti-Bush fanticism. There were a few such accusations yesterday in response to my post describing how the pro-Bush bloggers' mindless embrace of the erroneous Matt Drudge item illustrates their practice of choosing which "facts" to believe based upon which ones bolster their desired beliefs.

First, some credit where it's due. In response to the tidal wave of data and arguments conclusively demonstrating how wrong Drudge was (and, therefore, how wrong those were who rushed to embrace his assertions), Roger L. Simon -- who led the pro-Bush blogger embrace of Drudge -- posted a very straightforward, undiluted, and commendable apology and retraction: "I will do the right thing . . . and apologize to Markos Zuniga (sic) for my snotty comments about his book sales." Simon explained why his comments were made without reliable information. Everyone -- especially bloggers who post every day, in good moods and bad, with no editors -- is going to make mistakes in fact and judgment sometimes. What matters isn't if someone errs but how they respond when they do. I have nothing but good things to say about Simon's apology.

Similarly, Instapundit, who originally linked to the Drudge item while expressing some mild doubt about its accuracy, last night repudiated the Drudge claim rather aggressively: "Drudge should know better than to report a decently selling book as stalled. As it stands, he’s misreporting the situation." At least with regard to the deceitful Drudge claims which had been spreading like wildfire, it's hard to ask for more than that.

Finally, Captain Ed wrote an unusually gracious post the other day congratulating me for the book and John Aravosis for the cell phone privacy legislation which Aravosis' blog reporting engendered, concluding: "Both men show that the blogosphere's influence and power continue to increase and therefore make the market better for all of us. Congratulations on your successes." Ed would likely disagree with most of my book and most of Aravosis' postings but found the common ground -- that bloggers with vasty different views still have a common interest: namely, establishing the credibility and influence of the blogosphere and defending it against both rhetorical and regulatory assaults. It's commendable for someone to be that gracious with people with whom they disagree politically with regard to just about everything.

I say all of that not in order to create a moment of blogospheric peace and harmony, but instead, to lay the foundation for what I want to say about the use of generalizations when discussing political movements.

It is impossible to avoid generalizations when discussing political groups and the rhetoric and tactics those groups use. Everyone who talks about political conflicts by necessity resorts to generalizations at some point. We organize ourselves, sometimes loosely and other times formally, by groups -- Democrats/Republicans, conservatives/liberals, Right/Left, Bush supporters/opponents, war supporters/opponents, etc. Those group adopt tactics collectively, take on general behavioral attributes, are motivated by common objectives or needs, and come to be governed by distinct and dominant group forces.

It is critical and unavoidable to talk about, and defend or criticize, the behavior and attributes of these groups as groups. These political groupings win or lose, persuade or alienate, create or destroy, all as a result of the tactics and attributes which come to predominate and define what the group is. If we avoided talking about groups as groups -- which necessarily includes all sorts of generalizations -- it would mean that we would avoid talking about some of the most significant influences on political events. It's impossible and completely undesirable to avoid the use of generalizations when talking about political matters.

As necessary as they are, generalizations are fraught with risks and dangers. In any group of any size, the generalized statements which accurately describe the group's behavior will be inapplicable to various individuals who compose the group. That's just the nature of generalizations, and while that means one should exert caution when using generalizations, it does not mean that they ought to be avoided. They shouldn't be and can't be.

When I talk about Bush defenders and Bush followers and the Bush movement, I am referring to the tactics and behaviors exhibited by those who lead that movement and to those who most prominently, influentially and loyally defend it. As is true with all generalizations, none of it is absolute. Some Bush defenders deviate now and then from those strategies. Some of the individuals who lead or defend the movement may be uncomfortable with some of the defining rhetorical tactics and even repudiate them. But none of that undermines the validity and accuracy of the generalizations, which, by definition, describe what a group does generally, not every moment, in every instance, without exception.

Individuals themselves are complex and can act with conflicting motives. The most vicious and amoral tyrant can engage in a periodic act of kindness and generosity. Highly dishonest people can have moments of unusual candor, while the most magnanimous and selfless person can engage in isolated acts of cruelty and deceit. But most individuals, like most groups, end up with attributes which predominate, and it is entirely legitimate -- and necessary -- to talk about those attributes even if there are deviations and exceptions.

Many of the criticisms made against Bush followers are not unique to them. Individuals on the Left, in the center and everywhere else can also be vulnerable to group think, the selective disregarding of facts which conflict with their beliefs, and the temptations to abuse power. That ought to go without saying. But the combination of factors and circumstances which have defined the Bush presidency -- an extreme event (the 9/11 attacks), extreme imbalance in our government (accounted for by pro-Bush domination of all three branches of government), and extremists at the highest levels of the executive branch -- have made the Bush movement uniquely radical and extreme.

The idea that one can't talk about those things because some people who support George Bush may be nice, good, honest people -- or because some Bush supporters are complex people with mixed motives that aren't susceptible to generalized descriptions -- is just absurd. The Bush movement is identifiable by overriding attributes, tactics and behaviors which have had an extraordinary impact in fundamentally changing our country. Of course that movement is going to be talked about as a movement, and it ought to be.

What determines the accuracy of these observations isn't whether they exist on the level of generality but whether they are supported by documentation, evidence, credible sources, etc. Those who make generalizations about groups based on nothing but emotion and prejudice are acting irresponsibly, but those who describe group behavior supported with data and documentation are engaged in necessary and valuable analysis.

Our country is not governed by the Left or by liberals at the moment, and hasn't been for some time. Almost every government institution -- including the entire Executive Branch, both houses of Congress, and large swaths of the federal judiciary, particularly at the highest levels -- is dominated almost entirely by individuals who are loyal to the Bush presidency, its worldview, and the defining and predominant items on its agenda. The "Left," or any other group, controls virtually nothing. Our country is governed with virtually no opposition by the Bush movement and its defenders, and as a result, the corruption, dishonesty and abuses of power which one finds among them are the ones which, in my view, are the ones most worth talking about and battling against.

I read numerous pro-Bush blogs and other sources on a regular basis -- The Corner, Powerline, Michelle Malkin, Instapundit, Weekly Standard, the New York Sun, and scores of others, big and small. When someone blogs every day, they necessarily reveal far more about themselves than is usually revealed by people you don't actually know. Reading someone's blog on a daily basis is almost like sitting with them at the breakfast table every day -- with them in a whole array of moods -- while they sit and read the newspaper and talk aloud in an unmediated, unedited way about their views on pretty much everything. If you have that level of raw exposure to someone's thought processes, you come to learn how they think and reason, what their level of intellectual honesty is, and what motivates them.

Much of what I have come to believe about how Bush defenders think, how they behave, what motivates them, what tactics they use, is based upon the insight one develops as a result of having that level of exposure to their thought processes. With almost everyone opining so regularly and continuously on the Internet, how Bush defenders think and what they believe is all right there to look at -- it's all out in the open -- and, as a result, it can be amply documented. Almost every post I write about Bush defenders is usually stuffed full of links to pro-Bush bloggers or other Bush-defending advocates because I try to ensure that any such generalizations are supported by ample documentation and are accompanied by abundant (and meaningful) examples (i.e., from influential and representative Bush followers rather than obscure and unrepresentative ones). That is what I think distinguishes responsible generalizations from irresponsible ones.

The Bush movement generates such intense responses on both sides precisely because it is unusual, extreme, and radical. Those who defend it think that its radical departures are justifiable and beneficial and those who oppose it think they are destructive and amoral, but most people work with the premise that this administration has forged its own new path.

For that reason, it is to be expected that the Bush movement is discussed as an entity unto itself. Arguments of that nature are not inherently invalid because they are comprised of generalizations. To say "oh, he's talking in generalizations" is not an indictment of someone's argument. Whether the arguments are valid is simply determined by whether there is rational and evidentiary support for those generalizations. When I describe the behavior of Bush defenders, I never simply assert the description but always provide what I believe is ample support for it. One can dispute the persuasiveness of the claims or the support, but one cannot, in my view, claim that those descriptions are somehow inherently invalid because they are made in the form of generalizations.

121 comments:

  1. Anonymous11:10 AM

    Opinions and perspective have an allowable bias and whether they're informed or not depends on demonstrable reality (facts and events).

    Those shouldn't change between factions, but the right gives them short shrift in favor of more loudly repeating the day's rhetoric (or linking to a blander, more normalized version of an extreme misrepresentation or invention that was first planted as the "seed" of "fact".)

    Nor should neutral qualities like ethics and integrity change between factions -- though this extremist mutatnt Republicult, which combines the partisanship of a political party with the faith-based superstitious behavior of a cult, apparently believes that any behavior is acceptable in its quest for dominance.

    As you've maintained, complaining about generalizations doesn't address the tactics we see at work daily. If a few true believers depart from the norm, that's great, but when the norm continues to operate with its usual tactics then you're not really generalizing to notice that.

    (Note that another tactic, when members of the chorus are backed into a corner by demonstrable facts, is to plead for a fairer treatment than the right would extend were they in the other position.)

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  2. Anonymous11:15 AM

    Personally I think we treat the resident contrarians far better than their counterparts would us at say Powerline or LGF (provided they had either the courage or maturity to actually allow comment threads there).

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  3. Anonymous11:15 AM

    How about that faux "advertise liberally" group, you know, the circle of links that has stolen the word "liberal" while denying virtually everything that created the support for liberal and progressive in the previous century?

    Don't they also do the same things?

    I am not defending the repugs, just saying that the crowd that promotes themselves to the exclusion of the economic issues that built successful coalitions in the past are also part of the problem.

    We can all sit here and argue about book numbers and any number of other issues, slamming those we disagree with.

    Pocketbook issues are something that each and every one of us sees on a regular basis. Even Kansas was once a progressive state on these issues.

    Solving our problems is going to require a meaningful dialog about socio-economic issues.

    The repugs like to nip that discussion in the bud by slandering those that would speak, calling it "class warfare."

    Intersting enough, the faux "advertise liberally" crowd and their cirle of links does the same.

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  4. Anonymous11:28 AM

    i seem to recall from a subject area, "philosophy of history" or "philosophy of social science",

    i can't remember exactly,

    a discussion of the

    usefulness and

    the necessity

    of employing "tendency statements" to describe human behavior.

    for example, we might say accountants tend to be excellent poker players, or to be insensitive to art, blah, blah, blah.

    in doing so we leave open the possibility, indeed, the likelihood, that one or more accountants will not fit our generalization.

    i liked that thought (about tendency statements in describing human behavior)when i read it

    and have hung on to it (while forgetting just where i read it - maybe carl hemphill?).

    it is, as you say, essential to generalize about the behavior of groups.

    it is also essential to do so with

    the recognition the generalizations likely do not incorporate every person who is a member of the class or group under discussion.

    in this way, social science and history differ from physical science

    where every similar cell or molecule is expected to behave similarly under similar circumstances.

    part of this difference has to do with human intelligence, speech, and feed back.

    the usefulness of the "tendency" approach is that it


    allows generalizations which can be evaluated, tested, and improved.

    while recognizing human individuality and diversity

    and explicitly acknowledging the limitations of the tendency statement itself.

    it also provides a good defense against the attack:

    "well, here's a case that doesn't fit your generalization."

    to which the reply is :

    "of course, there may be thousands of such individual counter-examples

    but their existence, by itself, is not sufficient to disapprove my generalization."

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  5. Anonymous11:35 AM

    Man am I glad you our on our side.
    Your argument is excellent

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  6. Anonymous11:37 AM

    And my spelling is poor.
    Such is life

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  7. Glenn, Great posting, which I hope to return to later after running some errands. In the meantime, perahps you and your readers might wish to savor Wired's 27B Stroke 6, a blog devoted to investigating and giving the tech take on vanishing civil liberties.

    According to Defense Tech:

    Oh, this is gonna be good. Ryan Singel, the man behind a zillion data-mining scoops, and cracker-legend-turned-editor Kevin Poulsen have teamed up for a new blog over at Wired News. 27B Stroke 6 (named for Brazil's most famous form) will "scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, in a daily briefing on security, freedom and privacy in the wired world," according to Poulsen.

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  8. Anonymous11:44 AM

    Anonymous said...
    How about that faux "advertise liberally" group, you know, the circle of links that has stolen the word "liberal" while denying virtually everything that created the support for liberal and progressive in the previous century?


    I don't know anything about that Advertise Liberally group. Perhaps you are right. The word is a label or signifier. Any label or signifier can be co-opted by any group or movement or political party that chooses to do so, even if those co-opting the label have nothing in common with your idea of what that label signifies for you. There is no law against false and deceptive advertising in politics. As many here have pointed out, Bush is more of a radical than a conservative. However, he used the conservative label to get elected. Some people still believe that the Nazis, the National Socialist party of Germany were socialists. They used that label to come to power in 1928, by a slim margin, like Bush in 2000 and 2004.

    national socialism is a vague and often hard to define term that has been used in self-description by a number of unrelated political movements. It may refer to:

    Nazism, the political ideology of the German Nazi Party of the 1930s to 1940s. Since World War II, the term "National Socialism" (capitalized) is almost always used to refer to German Nazism in the context of Western political or historical discussions. It has also been adopted or applied to the ideology of descendent groups, generally called Neo-Nazism. Its application to any groups that are not related to the Nazis - including all socialists and most nationalists - is considered inaccurate and pejorative. Nevertheless, the word is often used as an insult by people across the political spectrum to refer to their opponents. See also the fallacy of reductio ad Hitlerum (which consists of labeling something as "evil" simply because it was supported by the Nazis, without a rational discussion of its merits and faults).


    Stalin was no communist, either

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  9. Anonymous12:08 PM

    When people argue that an exception to a generalization disproves the generalization, they are confusing (or pretending to confuse) generalizations with scientific theories. One exception to a scientific theory disproves (falsifies) the theory. This is NOT the case with generalizations such as those discussed in this post.

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  10. Anonymous12:08 PM

    well argued Glenn, but please don't waste too much of your time explaining the basics of rational discourse to those who have no interest in it.

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  11. You've raised a very important point. The first thing we have to acknolwlege is that generalizing is unavoidable if you want to discuss anything in the world. But some generalizations can be far more harmful than others. I think that evryone here (even the contrarians) can agree that making assumptions about people based solely on the shade of their skin is not only immoral but also irrational. Making assumptions about people based on whether they read and link to Kos or LGF is on the other hand a pretty reliable indicator of other aspects of their character. Whether or not they use words like "Islamofascists" or "Rethugs" in their writing is also a good indicator of their character.
    What I see as most the most dangerous trend in our country now is the willingness of people to categorize and then marginalize vast tracts of the world's population. The commenter the other day who was trying to diferentiate "Americans" vs "Muslims" provides a perfect example of someone who labels first and condemns second without even realizing the lack of logic in his choice of categories.

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  12. Hear, hear.

    FWIW, there's a wide range of defenders of Dubya and the right, of varying levels of integrity and veracity (as well as intellectual calibre).

    There's the foamers (Hannity and O'Reilly), the propagandists (WND, TownHall, NewsMax), the "intellectuals" (Buckley, and the wannabe Brooks), the complete nutzoids (Michael "Savage"), etc.

    Some even change their stripes or category over time. I thought at one time that Cap'n Ed of Captain's Quarters tried to be a fairly straight-shooter (and if you go back, you might agree). But he morphed, and it would be interesting to know why. I think it came down partly to desperation setting in, when the dispassionate had to give way to the passionate and partisan, as the 2004 race got tighter and tighter (I noticed a flowering of support and outright furtherance of the Swift boat nastiness that I thought at the time was beyond Cap'n Ed). It's a bit of "anything goes, for the party" slipping through.

    And I think he also has bought into the "Now I'm one of the 'kool' kids" thing, where he's recognised as one of the RW's more widely-read bloggers, and he gets invited to RW events and all, and he's got to defend the party line for fear they'll not invite him next time. Call it ego.

    Then there's a defensiveness that has arisen amongst the RW as they see their boat, their philosophy, and their world going down the vortex into oblivion, and it engenders just much more strenuous attempts to prop it up and try and prevent the cataclysm, rather than jumping and admitting defeat. The horror of what they've done (if and when it's proved wrong) becomes just too much to admit, so they have to keep buying in. Once again, ego and pride sneaks in.... The worse it gets, the bigger the psychic price they'll pay when they do jump, and it ends up being a vicious cycle....

    Agreed, Cap'n Ed still shows a few signs of his old integrity ... but only on things that don't make much difference. Ask him about the Swift-boating, and he'll continue in earnest to say that was the right thing to do....

    Just my two cents worth.

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  13. Anonymous12:26 PM

    Republicans would not be where they are today without the very effective use of false generalizations such as 'liberals hate America' to stop any potential debate or actual thinking with a pure emotional response. In many cases these generalizations are simply lies and don't apply to any individuals of significance, much less a real group. It is usually possible to find an example of just about anything. No matter how crazy an opinion might be there is likely someone who holds it and a good chance they have a blog or a web site. That doesn't mean it is significant. The situation today is that even moderate liberal opinion is considered nuttery and relegated to the fringes, not to be referred to in polite company, while nothing on the right is too extreme or inflammatory to become instant conventional wisdom and perfectly acceptable to be beamed into our homes courtesy of the 'Donkey' media.

    When people are willing to accept such truly absurd assertions as anyone who questions Bush policy is 'objectively pro-terrorist', it's a sign that the republic is in real danger. How do you refute something using reason that would not be accepted by anyone willing to use reason?

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  14. Anonymous12:26 PM

    Thanks for the post, Glenn.

    One of the most troubling aspects of "generalization" is how the right often refers to Centrist Democrats (like Bill Clinton as "Socialist.") This type of generalizing has more to do with framing the political discussion and narrowing the scope of the debate.

    On the right, people like Coulter, Buchanan, and Pat Robertson get to be part of the mainstream political discourse. On the left, we have people like Joe Biden and Joe Klein representing the liberal point of view. As long as we continue to allow the right to use generalizations to frame the debate, little will change in this country.

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  15. Anonymous12:28 PM

    At 11:28, Orienti said - in this way, social science and history differ from physical science where every similar cell or molecule is expected to behave similarly under similar circumstances.

    Not to nitpick but as an experimental physicist, I have to disagree with this statement. Physics and to a degree, most other sciences, deal with precisely the issues of uncertainty that are being discussed here, and our data are collected and analyzed in terms of trends, overall probabilities, and uncertainties; again lots of the same issues raised here in attempting to describe human behavior. In physics, as well as here, the importance of a pronouncement has to be weighed by 2 things - the degree of care taken in making the assessment and the level of uncertainty one attaches to that assessment. So, actually social science and physical science conclusions are pretty similar in that respect (although we probably differ on how objective these things can be measured – I’d argue that physical science can assess these things – accuracy and uncertainty, to a more firm degree than the social sciences).

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  16. Anonymous12:33 PM

    Glenn, it appears your PayPal image is making your posts wrap below the sidebar on 800x600.

    Did anyone post the NRO column about Glenn's book?

    For those never exposed to the concept, I've rehashed Authoritarian Personalities.

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  17. Anonymous12:36 PM

    Glenn,

    The problem with generalities is not their accuracy, but the usefulness of the information. Watch as decreased generality increases the value of information.

    - It has been said that people in power may use nefarious means to accomplish their goals.

    - It is reported that Republicans may use nefarious means to accomplish their goals.

    - A west coast publication reports that Republican lobbyists may use nefarious means to accomplish their goals.

    - A California newspaper reports that Brent Wilkes may have used nefarious means to accomplish his goals.

    - A newspaper based in San Diego is reporting that Brent Wilkes may have employed prostitutes in order to secure defense contracts.

    - The San Diego Union-Tribune is reporting:

    Federal prosecutors are reviewing records of two Washington, D.C., hotels where Poway defense contractor Brent Wilkes rented suites as part of their investigation into whether prostitutes were involved as he tried to curry favor with lawmakers and CIA officials.
    ...
    A source close to the bribery case, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the ongoing investigation, told the Union-Tribune  that Mitchell Wade, who pleaded guilty in February to bribing Cunningham, told federal prosecutors that he periodically helped arrange for a prostitute for the then-congressman.

    Notice how an anonymous source decreases the value of information.
    ...
    People who were present at the games said one of the regular players was Kyle Dustin “Dusty” Foggo, who has been Wilkes' best friend since the two attended junior high school in Chula Vista in the late 1960s. In October, Foggo was named the CIA's executive director – the agency's third-highest position.

    Another player was a CIA agent known as “Nine Fingers,” so named because he lost one of his digits while on assignment.


    "Nine Fingers" is more specific than "unnamed agent" but less specific than this persons name and title at the CIA.

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  18. Anonymous12:40 PM

    Glenn says: because I try to ensure that any such generalizations are supported by ample documentation and are accompanied by abundant (and meaningful) examples (i.e., from influential and representative Bush followers rather than obscure and unrepresentative ones).

    Really? After the post that first put Glenn on the map, he was asked for, you know, evidence that Bush supporters were in a blind cult that accused all critics of Bush of being "liberals." His response offered examples from the following:

    1. One (1) quote from Rush Limbaugh labeling Olympia Snowe, McCain, and some other Republicans as "liberals."

    2. One (1) Washington Post story describing how Ken Tomlinson measured the liberal bias on PBS, and in so doing classified two Bush critics (Hagel and Barr) as "liberal." (I think the point here was that if PBS features conservatives only when they criticize Bush, that in itself is an example of liberal bias.)

    3. One (1) quote from Newsbusters labeling Arlen Specter as "liberal."

    4. One (1) quote from the utterly obscure blogger "Rousseau" labeling Andrew Sullivan as a liberal.

    5. One (1) post from John Podhoretz claiming that some unknown emailer, from somewhere in the United States, called him a "liberal" for being upset at the Cheney shooting incident.

    So there you go: A grand total of five quotes, only one of which was from a name that the public would recognize (Limbaugh), and two of which were completely obscure (an anonymous emailer and an anonymous blogger).

    These five quotes were meant to be the evidentiary support for Glenn's grand, sweeping generalization in the original post, to wit, that "[p]eople who self-identify as "conservatives" and have always been considered to be conservatives become liberal heathens the moment they dissent, even on the most non-ideological grounds, from a Bush decree."

    Thus, Glenn is clearly dissimulating when he now claims that his generalizations are supported by "ample documentation," and by "abundant (and meaningful) examples" from "from influential and representative Bush followers rather than obscure and unrepresentative ones." That's simply false.

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  19. Anonymous12:40 PM

    Arne L. writes Agreed, Cap'n Ed still shows a few signs of his old integrity ... but only on things that don't make much difference. Ask him about the Swift-boating, and he'll continue in earnest to say that was the right thing to do....

    First, I flatly refuse to engage a substantive debate of the merits of the Swift Boat vets, because it is a black hole from which one does not emerge sane when surrounded by people who think the Swift Vets were evil incarnate. I will simply say this: When they came to my attention, I was appalled; at the time I supported Bush and immediately felt such a group would create justified backlash that would be very harmful to Bush. Then, I investigated (quite heavily) what their points were, and found 80% of their argument to be meritorious.

    Now, anyone who disagrees can spit out an outraged "What about when they claimed X!"; I then reply with Xmas in Cambodia and the fury many vets in the early 70s felt wrt Kerry's Vietnam Vets Against the War claims of war crimes as SOP. I won't go there; it is an exercise in (OT) futility. But I will insist that Captain Ed was not wrong to consider that the men who came together in outrage at the prospect of John Kerry being Commander in Chief had some legitimate and deeply held reasons for their opposition to Kerry. Some Democrats (one a former POW) made anti-Kerry ads with and for them.

    In sum -- and I reiterate that I will NOT engage in any substantive debates about the merits of theSwift Boat vets -- I distinguish them as a group, notwithstanding how their claims may have been embraced by any in the GOP, from general Bush supporters and their rhetorical and propaganda excesses. But Captain Ed is not demonstrated to lack integrity by considering and in general accepting the Swift Boat vets' arguments.

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  20. Anonymous12:51 PM

    If I may indulge in some generalizations (and purely from memory, no less) it seems to me that this is the second time that Mr. Greenwald has spoken here aout the integrity of the right in retreating from stated positions. I don't recall even one post about the left being wrong. Canards like "Bush lied" are still on the litany of charges against the Bush Administration, just waiting for a smoking gun to be rosary'd once again for the benefit of his readers.
    Of course, being a Bush apologist, I am incorrect in stating that he has have never made an apology such as those he attributes today to the right. Alert readers can do doubt cite me just one. Of course I don't read every post and all such a cite will prove is that my memory is poor, but that should be incentive enough.
    My point is that the left is very un-self-critical and tolerates much more than the right. Although they are un-needed, here are some examples: Harry Belafonte, Al...well, you know who they are. This tolerance makes it very hard for independents to trust what the left actually stands for. Leftists seem to understand (if that is the word) and just remain silent as the idiots perform. I could mention a certain GA Congressperson, but I won't). Why does the left tolerate such people in silence?

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  21. After the post that first put Glenn on the map, he was asked for, you know, evidence that Bush supporters were in a blind cult that accused all critics of Bush of being "liberals.

    This is false on many fronts. Leaving aside the fact that I had written many posts prior to the Bush cult post which were as linked to as the cult post was, the original post you are referring to contained ample evidence and support for the arguments that were made, most of which were ignored by the critics of the argument (almost all of whom opted -- and still opt -- for the indescribably cheap tactic of saying: "Hey, that guy over there once criticized Bush a few years ago for being a little too loose with domestic spending and he wasn't called a liberal, so your argument is disproven").

    The subsequent post to which you are referring -- which contained examples of conservatives who were called "liberals" by virtue of critizing the Presidnet -- was written in response to a specific request by several people (such as Tom Maguire James Taranto) who asked for examples of conservatives who were called "liberals" as a result of criticizing the administration. When - in response to their request for such examples -- I provided five examples, including by and against some of the most influential conservatives in the country, the resopnse was: "Oh, look, he's providing individual EXAMPLES as though that proves the trend." They asked for examples; when I provided them, they claimed that examples prove nothing. It was a sad and dishonest tactic that I ignored.

    As I said in this post, you can say what you want about generalizations genearlly, or the Bush cult post specifically - you can disagree with it all you want, claim it is unpersuasive, etc. But the original post is filled with links, examples, documentation and support for the argument (as is the follow-up post the next day), rendering patently false the claim that the argument was simply asserted without support.

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  22. Anonymous1:02 PM

    Thus, Glenn is clearly dissimulating when he now claims that his generalizations are supported by "ample documentation," and by "abundant (and meaningful) examples" from "from influential and representative Bush followers rather than obscure and unrepresentative ones." That's simply false.

    Whether Glenn had shown sufficient examples or not, I hope you're not trying to deny his assertion there -- I can't immediately recall a Bush-related screed I've read from the major Republican/right-wing shills over the past few years that hasn't dismissed criticism of Bush as coming from 'a few disgruntled liberals' (although that's not quite so common now that his approval ratings are in the 30s...)

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  23. Anonymous1:08 PM

    I'll make a generalization. I just just read an article called To Kill an American. You probably missed it in the rush of news last week, but there was actually a report that someone in Pakistan had published in a newspaper an offer of a reward to anyone who killed an American, any American.

    So an Australian dentist wrote an editorial the following day to let everyone know what an American is, so they would know when they found one. (Good one,mate!!!!)

    "An American is English, or French, or Italian, Irish, German, Spanish, Polish, Russian or Greek. An American may also be Canadian, Mexican, African, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Australian, Iranian, Asian, or Arab, or Pakistani or Afghan.

    An American may also be a Comanche, Cherokee, Osage, Blackfoot, Navajo, Apache, Seminole or one of the many other tribes known as native Americans

    An American may be Christian, or Jewish, or Buddhist, or Muslim. In fact, there are more Muslims in America than in Afghanistan. The only difference is that in America they are free to worship as each of them chooses.

    An American is also free to believe in no religion. For that he will answer only to God, not to the government, or to armed thugs claiming to speak for the government and for God.

    An American lives in the most prosperous land in the history of the world. The root of that prosperity can be found in the Declaration of Independence, which recognizes the God given right of each person to the pursuit of happiness.

    An American is generous. Americans have helped out just about every other nation in the world in their time of need, never asking a thing in return.

    When Afghanistan was over-run by the Soviet army 20 years ago, Americans came with arms and supplies to enable the people to win back their country!

    As of the morning of September 11, Americans had given more than any other nation to the poor in Afghanistan. Americans welcome the best of everything...the best products, the best books, the best music, the best food, the best services. But they also welcome the least.

    The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty, welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest tossed. These in fact are the people who built America.

    Some of them were working in the Twin Towers the morning of September 11, 2001 earning a better life for their families. It's been told that the World Trade Center victims were from at le ast 30 different countries, cultures, and first languages, including those that aided and abetted the terrorists.

    So you can try to kill an American if you must. Hitler did. So did General Tojo, and Stalin, and Mao Tse-Tung, and other blood-thirsty tyrants in the world. But, in doing so you would just be killing yourself. Because Americans are not a particular people from a particular place. They are the embodiment of the human spirit of freedom. Everyone who holds to that spirit, everywhere, is an American.

    So when Glenn or Jane or Arianna makes a generalization, they are just pointing out the grief real Americans feel that a tyrant occupies the White House. A tyrant who seeks to alter the spirit of Americans by launching a preemptive war against people who never attacked us. A tyrant who breaks the law and seeks to make the rich richer, while average citizen groan under the weight of higher fuel prices, heating prices, and lower wages.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Anonymous1:10 PM

    I can't immediately recall a Bush-related screed I've read from the major Republican/right-wing shills over the past few years that hasn't dismissed criticism of Bush as coming from 'a few disgruntled liberals' (although that's not quite so common now that his approval ratings are in the 30s...)

    You must not read very much. Try checking out some of the recent works of Pat Buchanan, who is no Bush lover and who has never (to my knowledge) been called a liberal by anyone.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Anonymous1:26 PM

    Oooops! I just occurred to me that my image here is taken to be a Winger and that I have just impugned some politicians who are all black. Well, you can imagine the knee jerks that would set off! Sorry. I have mixed race beloved grandchildren and have become somewhat oblivious to the sensitivities of many liberals. I was thinking (really) of the political thoughts expressed by some Democrats and failed entirely to realize that they were mostly black. Mea culpa.
    In this day and age of General Powell and Condi Rice it shouldn't be surprising that some have moved on, but there you have it.
    Don't guess I will get much discussion of the political aspects of my comment. Oh well.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Anonymous1:27 PM

    bloggers with vasty different views still have a common interest: namely, establishing the credibility and influence of the blogosphere and defending it against both rhetorical and regulatory assaults.

    This is generous to the point of being wrong. The Bush bloggers have a very different idea of what the blogsphere is for (backing Bush), a different notion of what constitutes credibility (backing Bush), and they have a very different idea of acceptable political discourse (discourse backing Bush).

    By itself, the "credibility and influence of the blogosphere" means nothing, so far as I can see.
    .

    ReplyDelete
  27. Anonymous1:30 PM

    This is false on many fronts. Leaving aside the fact that I had written many posts prior to the Bush cult post which were as linked to as the cult post was, the original post you are referring to contained ample evidence and support for the arguments that were made,

    Also an untruth, compared to your recent claim that your generalizations are all supported by numerous references to well-known conservatives. To the contrary, your original post had no evidence for the main thesis except for this:

    1. One post from Alexandra von Maltzan at All Things Beautiful. (Who?)

    2. A claim that "George Voinovich became a "liberal" the minute he refused to support John Bolton’s nomination," with a citation to one column by Oliver North. Oddly enough, that column never uses the word "liberal" to refer to Voinovich.

    3. A link to a story noting that a Bob Barr speech "merited only polite applause" at a conservative gathering, and was criticized by one Richard Sorcinelli (a complete unknown person off the street).

    4. The fact that Brent Bozell said that Andrew Sullivan is "no conservative." (What should Sullivan be called? He's conservative on some issues, and quite liberal on others.)


    most of which were ignored by the critics of the argument (almost all of whom opted -- and still opt -- for the indescribably cheap tactic of saying: "Hey, that guy over there once criticized Bush a few years ago for being a little too loose with domestic spending and he wasn't called a liberal, so your argument is disproven").

    Is that as indescribably cheap as your tactic of making broad generalizations based on little more than misquotations of Oliver North, cites to anonymous bloggers and emailers, etc.?

    The subsequent post to which you are referring -- which contained examples of conservatives who were called "liberals" by virtue of critizing the Presidnet -- was written in response to a specific request by several people (such as Tom Maguire James Taranto) who asked for examples of conservatives who were called "liberals" as a result of criticizing the administration. When - in response to their request for such examples -- I provided five examples, including by and against some of the most influential conservatives in the country, the resopnse was: "Oh, look, he's providing individual EXAMPLES as though that proves the trend."

    Nonsense. No one criticized you for providing examples. They criticized you for failing to come up with more than a handful of examples, several of which referred to completely obscure people. Such conduct is completely inconsistent with your most recent claim that your generalizations are supported by "ample documentation," and by "abundant (and meaningful) examples" from "from influential and representative Bush followers rather than obscure and unrepresentative ones." Just not true.

    ReplyDelete
  28. northerner: Try checking out some of the recent works of Pat Buchanan, who is no Bush lover and who has never (to my knowledge) been called a liberal by anyone.

    Aactually, there seems to have been a hoopla among conservatives when conservative candidate Alan Keyes insinuated that Buchanan was indeed a liberal.

    Not a reader of conservative blogs myself, I have to trust the following from one such:

    Oh yeah, and there was talk show host Alan Keyes who ran on the platform that Pat Buchanan is a liberal wimp. In what I hope becomes precedent for talk show hosts seeking higher office, he went home lonely, a loser, a failure...

    ReplyDelete
  29. Anonymous1:31 PM

    he was asked for, you know, evidence that Bush supporters were in a blind cult

    Wow! Not only do facts not matter, but the fact that you had facts doesn't matter.

    Deeper and deeper in their spider holes they go.

    Excellent!
    .

    ReplyDelete
  30. Anonymous1:34 PM

    questionmark writes: If you won't discuss the Swift Boat vets, then don't discuss them.

    You left a word out, namely: "substantively." I won't engage the specific merits of any of their particular claims (and neither did Arne L; he simply assumed it was manifest that anyone who accepted the Swift Boat vets' claims is demonstrably lacking in integrity). I simply insist that it is not an indictment of Captain Ed's good faith if he took that group seriously. Lots of us did, and I still do.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Hypatia:

    First, I flatly refuse to engage a substantive debate of the merits of the Swift Boat vets, because it is a black hole from which one does not emerge sane when surrounded by people who think the Swift Vets were evil incarnate....

    You have it wrong, Hypatia. It's the "Swift Boat Vets" that thought that Kerry was "evil incarnate". They're pissed at him (and at others) for the politicas of the Vietnam war era. But they don't have the honesty to got out and say that, and to debate on the merits the Vietnam policy and the actions of the anti-war movement. Instead, they chose (not uncharacteristically) the slime tactics of the RW to go after him personally and slime him horribly for stuff that was by any reasonable measure in fact outstanding service. That's dishonest, Hypatia, and Cap'n Ed bought into it. Then there'e the sweetheard Malkin, who went so far as to say that Kerry shot himself deliberately, contrary to any known rational fact in the universe. FWIW, the RW did the same for Max Cleland ... and John Murtha ... and they'll do it again and again and AGAIN because that's their character. I'm really sorry that Capn' Ed saw fit to sign up for that dismal tactic.

    Do I think the "Swift Boat Vets" are "evil incarnate"? No. I think they're dishonest scum. Not to mention, political to the Nth degree, despite any claims to the contrary. Clearer?

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  32. Hypatia:

    I distinguish them ["Swift Boat Vets Against The Truth", as O'Reilly inadvertently and honestly called them once] as a group, notwithstanding how their claims may have been embraced by any in the GOP, from general Bush supporters and their rhetorical and propaganda excesses.

    Hypatia, this was a thinly-disguised Republican campaign, and the folks (and money) behind it veteran Republican operatives and Bush supporters. Look, if you need a clue, just check out the timing.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  33. hypatia: Bracketing the question whether the Swift Boaters were right or not, I wonder whether you thought/think the charges about Bush's so-called National Guard service record have 1) any basis for criticism and 2) been overblown.

    This might lead us to generalize about your "objectivity" when it comes to assessing evidence.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anonymous1:45 PM

    Arne L. writes Do I think the "Swift Boat Vets" are "evil incarnate"? No. I think they're dishonest scum. Not to mention, political to the Nth degree, despite any claims to the contrary. Clearer?

    Well, I disagree that they are dishonest. It is possible for a person of good faith to take that view, as Captain Ed did. And I've read their book, and heavily studied the tons of documentation at their web site.

    The fact is, they are as much a creature of the Internet as Glenn's book and the supporters at this blog. The whole movement was born of an email list and discussion among the Swift Boat Vets, initially involving reactions to Kerry's biography and the stories told therein, a bio timed to be released for his campaign. Prior to email lists, I don't think such a movement could have produced what it did as quickly as it did. As a matter of principle, I think it is wrong to dismiss such efforts merely because one does not like the consensus these vets reached and the arguments they made.

    ReplyDelete
  35. O/T BUT...
    Glenn when Amazon cuts the price of your book (I haven't yet pre-ordered) does that cut YOUR revenue?

    ReplyDelete
  36. Anonymous1:48 PM

    Charles Johnson of LGF often makes elaborate "fact-checking" claims, and says that if he posts something which is later shown to be false, he *always* posts a correction.

    Not this time:
    ttp://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=20273_Daily_Kos_Nutroots_Manifesto_Stiffs&only

    ReplyDelete
  37. northerner:

    Nonsense. No one criticized you for providing examples. They criticized you for failing to come up with more than a handful of examples, several of which referred to completely obscure people.

    Reminds me of the evolution "debate":

    "Yeah, so you've found a link between land mammals and cetaceans. That doens't prove anything. Now we're missing two links, between your new find and the two original species..."

    ;-)

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  38. Anonymous1:56 PM

    Glenn:

    I am reading your article about generalizations today with great interest.

    From today's post, "While that means one should exert caution when using generalizations, it does not mean that they ought to be avoided. They shouldn't be and can't be."

    I will take up your challenge ("they can't be") because I feel that they should and can be avoided. And I'd like to prove it to you - at least, I'll give it a try. Please forward to me any text which you think cannot be rewritten to avoid the use of generalizations, and I will take my best stab to prove to you that, indeed, it could have been rewritten to avoid generalizations. It's a matter of careful wordsmithing.

    Why not issue a challenge to the whole of the blogosphere? - you will see that there's more than one way to skin a cat. There's no shame in admitting that something has been inartfully worded and could have been written more accurately - we aren't all perfect writers (I'm a great example!) I do feel that the use of generalizations is largely the product of poor writing - not that I've accused you of this many times, only once.

    Further, my particular gripe was with innaccurate generalizations not with the use of generalizations (in general!). I hope that makes sense to you - here's an example:

    "bloggers on the right believe that everything is going swell in Iraq"

    - my gripe is NOT that you are generalizing the right side of the blogosphere, my gripe is that this generalization is not accurate. Not because a few individual right bloggers do not claim this, but because the majority of right bloggers do not claim this.

    This could easily have been rewritten:

    "Some prominent bloggers on the right really seem to believe everything is going swell in Iraq."

    Note how easy it is to qualify this statement. Now, instead of indicting the entire right, we are indicting a select few. Now, instead of asserting what they believe, we are are supposing they believe something.

    There are generalizations which are 'accurate' because they do describe the majority, and there are generalizations that are innaccurate because they do NOT represent the majority of opinion.

    I could truthfully write that

    "many liberal bloggers want the US to get out of Iraq."

    But it would be untruthful to write that

    "most liberal bloggers want the US out of Iraq immediately."

    I believe your argument is largely shooting down a straw man complaint.

    I hope you will take this seriously - provide some text that you have written that you think could not have been written without a generalization. Given today's post, it's an experiment worth performing that will either support or refute your argument. (And I'd suggest we use something you've already written that has already been criticized - and not something carefully crafted to destroy the experiment. Because that's what this is all about - carefully crafting your prose to be accurate while avoiding misleading generalizations.)

    ReplyDelete
  39. Hypatia:

    Well, I disagree that they are dishonest.

    Their tactics are dishonest, to say the least. The fact that they (sometimes) won't admit their motivations (animus against Kerry's anti-war activities), or argue that issue rather than trying to slime Kerry personally.

    But yes, they did get dishonest even in their personal, ad hominem attacks. They tried to foist off accounts of Kerry's battles completely in discord with the known and official records of the times, and all on the basis of unsubstantiated personal "testimony" of people with a manifest grudge (and rebutted by the people that actually served with Kerry).

    Then there's Malkin.....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  40. Anonymous1:59 PM

    Hypatia said... Well, I disagree that they are dishonest. It is possible for a person of good faith to take that view, as Captain Ed did. And I've read their book, and heavily studied the tons of documentation at their web site.

    The fact is, they are as much a creature of the Internet as Glenn's book and the supporters at this blog. The whole movement was born of an email list and discussion among the Swift Boat Vets, initially involving reactions to Kerry's biography and the stories told therein, a bio timed to be released for his campaign. Prior to email lists, I don't think such a movement could have produced what it did as quickly as it did. As a matter of principle, I think it is wrong to dismiss such efforts merely because one does not like the consensus these vets reached and the arguments they made.

    1:45 PM


    She gets like this on some pet issues. Completely blind to the facts. Completely self-deluded by a facile argument. And stubborn! Are you a Taurus or something?

    I think it's the "commie" thing. Her hatred of Viet Nam purely because they "wanted to be left alone".

    My advice, drop it. Or don't. I've never been rigid about thread topic discipline, or much of anything else.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Anonymous1:59 PM

    cynic librarian writes: hypatia: Bracketing the question whether the Swift Boaters were right or not, I wonder whether you thought/think the charges about Bush's so-called National Guard service record have 1) any basis for criticism and 2) been overblown.

    I paid almost no attention to that issue, until the Rathergate controversy. If those with whom Bush served and the officers to whom he reported had risen up in significant numbers to claim he gamed the system & all the other accusations leveled, I would have listened to them. To my knowledge, that didn't happen. It is my position that members of the military have the authority to criticize public claims and behavior of one of their own, especially when one of their own puts his service with them squarely at issue.

    It is further my posisiton that Captain Ed is not dishonest for considering the views of military members, current or retired, who speak out in such contexts.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Anonymous2:02 PM

    Apology accepted, questionmark. I consider that being let off easy, considering the crime that I committed.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous2:03 PM

    I may get flamed for this, but I don't care. I'd rather swiftboat McCain than see that clown in the WH. He's likely going to be their candidate, he's the only one with half a chance. Any other hump they can run doesn't need to be swiftboated. Their chances are that poor or they've already swiftboated themselves. 4 yyears of McCain will be four more years of the same.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Glenn:

    The Bush movement generates such intense responses on both sides precisely because it is unusual, extreme, and radical. Those who defend it think that its radical departures are justifiable and beneficial and those who oppose it think they are destructive and amoral, but most people work with the premise that this administration has forged its own new path.

    In foreign and war policy, I would agree. Bush has taken the old Reagan Doctrine regime change goals to a new level.

    His domestic policy is Reagan tax rate cuts and Dem social programs and entitlements.

    For that reason, it is to be expected that the Bush movement is discussed as an entity unto itself. Arguments of that nature are not inherently invalid because they are comprised of generalizations. To say "oh, he's talking in generalizations" is not an indictment of someone's argument. Whether the arguments are valid is simply determined by whether there is rational and evidentiary support for those generalizations. When I describe the behavior of Bush defenders, I never simply assert the description but always provide what I believe is ample support for it. One can dispute the persuasiveness of the claims or the support, but one cannot, in my view, claim that those descriptions are somehow inherently invalid because they are made in the form of generalizations.

    Glenn, you have been using "Bush Supporter" as a synonym for "conservative" or "Republican" as if there is some sort of Great Right Wing Conspiracy. Then you usually go on to call them deranged in some sort of way.

    That is obviously incorrect of you have been following the infighting in conservative and GOP circles over several of Mr. Bush's positions. Hell, I oppose most of Bush's domestic policy.

    I disagree with almost everything you preach here, but I do not question your motives or think you a deranged member of a Great Left Wing Conspiracy. I know better. You are not deranged, you are mistaken, and the left is a splintered mess, not a conspiracy.

    If someone here actually defends Mr. Bush by name and his policies, call him a Bush supporter if you like. It adds nothing to the conversation, though. I think we can debate the issues without the name calling.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Anonymous2:06 PM

    Glenn, you write:
    -----
    Similarly, Instapundit, who originally linked to the Drudge item while expressing some mild doubt about its accuracy, last night repudiated the Drudge claim rather aggressively: "Drudge should know better than to report a decently selling book as stalled. As it stands, he’s misreporting the situation." At least with regard to the deceitful Drudge claims which had been spreading like wildfire, it's hard to ask for more than that.
    -----

    To be clear... Instapundit did not fully repudiate Drudge directly. The person who sent Instapundit the numbers did. (As the dotted lines in the instapundit linked articles would seem to indicate a copied message.) So Instapundit is apologizing in a roundabout sort of way, but he himself did not say Drudge was "misreporting" the situation.

    While it's nice to see Instapundit link such a piece, it would be a thousand times better to read him repudiate a guy like Drudge directly and resolve to stop supporting the guy by linking to him or repeating what he says. IMHO.

    ReplyDelete
  46. hypatia: I paid almost no attention to that issue, until the Rathergate controversy.

    I wonder whether you then paid attention when the editor of that Rather segment later published a book that substantiated much of what the segment asserted, especially the notion that the "smoking gun" memo could indeed have been typed during that time.

    She did receive some airplay on this but it seems the MSM dropped it like a hot potato. Who knows, maybe Rove was up to his threats of pissing in their beer again.

    Be that as it may, I find it somewhat odd, perhaps eccentric, that you would choose willingly to listen to accusations against a man who, although he opposed the war, went to VietNam and not those against a man who, although he supported that war, chose to get a cushy job back home serving in the Air Guard.

    Again, this does not argue that any of the cases are right or wrong. It does show, in a general way, how people choose to pay attention to things that support their preconceptions. Something, I think, Glenn gets right in his posting.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Anonymous2:09 PM

    "Hypatia" said...

    I paid almost no attention to that issue, until the Rathergate controversy.

    and this...

    The fact is, they are as much a creature of the Internet as Glenn's book and the supporters at this blog. The whole movement was born of an email list and discussion among the Swift Boat Vets, initially involving reactions to Kerry's biography and the stories told therein, a bio timed to be released for his campaign. Prior to email lists, I don't think such a movement could have produced what it did as quickly as it did. As a matter of principle, I think it is wrong to dismiss such efforts merely because one does not like the consensus these vets reached and the arguments they made.


    She actually believes this...

    This is what happens when...

    I am gross and perverted
    I'm obsessed 'n deranged
    I have existed for years
    But very little had changed
    I am the tool of the Government
    And industry too
    For I am destined to rule
    And regulate you

    I may be vile and pernicious
    But you can't look away
    I make you think I'm delicious
    With the stuff that I say
    I am the best you can get
    Have you guessed me yet?
    I am the slime oozin' out
    From your TV set

    You will obey me while I lead you
    And eat the garbage that I feed you
    Until the day that we don't need you
    Don't got for help...no one will heed you
    Your mind is totally controlled
    It has been stuffed into my mold
    And you will do as you are told
    Until the rights to you are sold

    That's right, folks..
    Don't touch that dial

    Well, I am the slime from your video
    Oozin' along on your livin'room floor

    I am the slime from your video
    Can't stop the slime, people, lookit me go


    And she thinks it's the "Liberal Media".

    Like I said, don't go there.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Anonymous2:11 PM

    If those with whom Bush served and the officers to whom he reported had risen up in significant numbers to claim he gamed the system & all the other accusations leveled, I would have listened to them.

    Is this comment disingenuous or just underinformed? Why would the people who named their own unit the "champagne regiment" come forward to talk about how they all gamed the system? Maybe the Dallas Cowboys could talk about how they arranged to have their drafted athletes stashed there?

    Has anyone come forward to say they saw Bush at his Alabama post? As I recall, Alabama guardsmen had a reward for any such.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anonymous2:12 PM

    Arne L writes: But yes, they did get dishonest even in their personal, ad hominem attacks. They tried to foist off accounts of Kerry's battles completely in discord with the known and official records of the times, and all on the basis of unsubstantiated personal "testimony" of people with a manifest grudge (and rebutted by the people that actually served with Kerry).

    This all gets extraordinarily complicated, but in general what happened is this: Several hundred of them, many of whom in fact did serve directly w/ Kerry, were on an email list. They read his version of events as set forth in a biography timed to come out for the campaign. They compared their recollections with the contents of that book, and found many exaggerations and lies. In the window of time they had, they did the best they could, as I see it, in setting matters forth factually, but got some things wrong -- but not all by a very long shot.And they were not alone, as another naval officer (who had supported Kerry's senate runs) posted his amused rejection of the bio's claims for Kerry when Kerry served on a carrier before his Swift Boat tour of duty.

    If a man is going to make his service In Vietnam the central theme of his campaign, and issue a hagiographic biography at that time, he had better be honest about it. It might also be advised not to run on such a theme if he came back stateside to make very high profile denunciations of all of his "brothers" as war criminals, which engendered very angry reactions at the time. In my strong opinion, the Democrats have no one to blame but themselves for nominating Kerry, and then for making his Vietnam service his campaign theme. Truly, I think they were insane.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anonymous2:14 PM

    the notion that the "smoking gun" memo could indeed have been typed during that time

    Or you could just talk to the typist who produced the originals.
    .

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous2:14 PM

    There is no doubt that one is entitled to have (and these days, have published)an opinion. One can even have an uninformed opinion! But I have observed on both sides of the pro/anti Bush debate, a level of discourse that is deplorably low, with too many resorting to rude and abusive remarks. Insults do not an argument make. Sarcasm (note carefully, Mr. Limbaugh) is the argument of the intellectually lazy. Sarcasm is not satire. One reason I enjoy this blog is the generally higher level of debate displayed by the participants, especially Mr. Greenwald. Best of luck with the book.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Anonymous2:15 PM

    I love it when they do this...


    Bart says I think we can debate the issues without the name calling.

    2:03 PM


    Like the way the primaries went with McCain and Bush in 2000? and that was in their own party! They swiftboated McCain before Kerry... support the vets, yanno. And it truly was a "spontaneous" internet based kinda thing, Hypatia...just kinda... happened yanno?

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous2:15 PM

    I bought your book on Thursday. And I'm glad you are on our side.

    Very insightful and with class as always.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous2:17 PM

    This all gets extraordinarily complicated, but in general what happened is this:

    Bullshit. They signed affadavits sight unseen, costing one of them his job as a prosecutor. Another retracted "his" story once he found out what it was. The entire operation was led by the same man assigned to attack Kerry by Nixon himself, who said one thing as the leader of the Swift Boat Veterans for Rent, but quite another on the Nixon tapes.

    Thank you for your display of cultic activity. This is why you are beneath contempt.
    .

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous2:21 PM

    Swiftboats

    Swiftboats

    http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html

    There are other sites that demolish that whole fantasy of yours, Hypatia... but then, nobody takes the libertarian/tupperware party or cultists of the Ayatollah Rand seriously either, except other members of those cults.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Anonymous2:26 PM

    In Hypatia's tiny little insular world, Kerry sat next to Hanoi Jane on the NVA AA gun, and gave aid and comfort to the enemy of all that is decent and holy, "the commies"! That's a hanging offense in her book. her book is Treason! By Ann Coulter. I like how she is now blaming us for running Kerry, but she voted for Bush. It's still our fault! This broad is wack!

    ReplyDelete
  57. grand moff texan: Thank you for your display of cultic activity. This is why you are beneath contempt.

    Since you're from Texas, I can understand the outrage you feel when Hypatia displays her blindness to what you, no doubt, know too well. But I am not willing to think that she's "beneath contempt"--she's a very smart person whomaybe will see the error of her ways via this discussion.

    If not, so be it. Then I will put the best face on it and say she's an eccentric in her understanding of assessing the facts and being open to counter-arguments and counter-facts.

    Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. She, at least, understands that the Bushites are a threat to the constituional democracy many of us love so dearly. That raises her person far above contempt.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Anonymous2:34 PM

    cynic librarian writes: Be that as it may, I find it somewhat odd, perhaps eccentric, that you would choose willingly to listen to accusations against a man who, although he opposed the war, went to VietNam and not those against a man who, although he supported that war, chose to get a cushy job back home serving in the Air Guard.

    Well, first, one thing I did not understand until I read through the Swift Boat vets material is that both Bush and Kerry served in the reserves. Naval in Kerry's case. Kerry actually had sought some 3-5 deferments, the last being rejected. I don't think there is a thing wrong with that, but it is relevant if Bush's reserve service is relevant. (I don't think either are, and wouldn't base a vote on such an issue.)

    Whatever else is or is not true about Bush's TANG service, the documents in that CBS story were fabricated. That cost Mary Mapes her job and an early retirement for Dan Rather, under a cloud. I really don't care one way or another about the truth of Bush's TANG service, but fabricated documents in a heated campaign context are to be condemned, no matter who proffers them as authentic or for which party or candidate.

    When the Swift Boat vets first began to become high profile in August of '04, my initial reaction was horror. Like most, I assumed this was some GOP maneuver, but one demonstrating sheer stupidity in that it was going to backfire badly. So, I went into a frenzy of researching who these men were, how they got started, and especially who John O'Neill was. Now, I could no doubt earn all kinds of approval at a site like this if I "proved" my honesty and even-handedness by saying the Swift Boat vets were nothing but a pack of Rove-sponsored liars. But based on my investigation of them, I believe that to be untrue.

    If Captain Ed also thinks they were legitimately speaking from their own perspective, I agree with him.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Anonymous2:36 PM

    Since you're from Texas, I can understand the outrage you feel when Hypatia displays her blindness to what you, no doubt, know too well.

    Indeed. For example, I encounter far too many lefties, for instance, who've bought the image of Bush as a Texan. He is not. It seems I am forever defending the honor of my state. But then identities and images are so cheap and meaningless these days.

    She, at least, understands that the Bushites are a threat to the constituional democracy many of us love so dearly. That raises her person far above contempt.

    So does Pat Buchanan, and he's batshit insane.

    I respect ability. That's about it. When I see ability prostituted in the service of denial, however, on the very important issues of our day then I am done with that person. I then switch from engaging them to using their content against them and all people like them. They become a thing.

    It takes only one act of supreme dishonesty to ruin a reputation for integrity, or to establish that you never had one. And we are not exactly suffering from a shortage of people.

    I respect your position. I do not, however, respect that other person, not even as a human being.
    .

    ReplyDelete
  60. Anonymous2:39 PM

    fabricated documents in a heated campaign context are to be condemned, no matter who proffers them as authentic or for which party or candidate.

    To the mind of the cultist, the fabricated documents are an opportunity to flee the issue entirely, no matter the content of the originals and those who still vouch for them or the fact that said contents are consistant with the rest of the available information and the nature of draft-evasion during the Vietnam war.
    .

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  61. Anonymous2:45 PM

    cynic librarian said... Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. She, at least, understands that the Bushites are a threat to the constituional democracy many of us love so dearly. That raises her person far above contempt.

    What Grand Moff Texan and I can see is that she put this tool in office. It was because he knew how to appeal to her, and all the other wingnuts like her. They have been brainwashed, dude. and they don't even know it. To them, the truth is the "other side's" propaganda and programming. The truth is a lie. She is the very archetype of the useful idiot. And she will do this again. Put another clown in the WH, and blame us for it afterwards. Batshit insane, man.

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  62. Anonymous2:57 PM

    anon writes: There are other sites that demolish that whole fantasy of yours, Hypatia... but then, nobody takes the libertarian/tupperware party or cultists of the Ayatollah Rand seriously either, except other members of those cults.

    To employ the latest word of choice around here, what-ev-eh.

    Look, the Swift Boat vets are not left speechless by links such as those you give to factcheck. They have tons of in-depth replies at their web site and elsewhere. As I've said before, this all gets very complicated. But I've never denied that there were some factual errors in their book. (And factcheck misunderstand the reasons for all those affidavits; they were O'Neill's idea in advance of the ads, anticipating -- correctly -- attempts to intimidate stations with threats of defamation actions. That's why he handed out affidavits to the media. Seems sensible to me.) But what is also beyond reasonable dispute, is that not all of the claims are wrong, and that the Swift Boat vets are not alone in being amused or outraged by the contents of the hagiography that is Kerry's campaign bio.

    John O'Neill was a Humphrey Democrat when he agreed in the 70s to work with Nixon to counter the accusations that all soldiers in Vietnam all the way up through the chain of command were operating as war criminals. You see, Democrats are not all traitors. Some of them really are patriotic and not anti-military. That's why a then-Democrat like O'Neill was willing to counter Kerry's group libel.

    In the intervening decades, O'Neill became a very successful and prosperous lawyer in Texas. He was not particularly political or partisan -- but weirdly had supported Ross Perot. Anyway, he knew what kinds of resources and contacts he was going to have to have to get the Swift Boat message out. Oddly enough, he concluded Moveon.org was unlikely to provide that help, and he looked elsewhere. Shockingly -- absolutely stunningly -- GOP enclaves were far more amenable. You know, kinda like if Glenn Greenwald wants to publish an attack on the Bush presidency, I'll bet it never even occurred to him to query Regnery. And I'll bet he is interviewed on Air America long, long before he is by Rush or Michael Reagan.

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  63. Anonymous3:07 PM

    Grand Moff Texan writes about me:
    I respect your position. I do not, however, respect that other person, not even as a human being.


    Wow. Really.

    And what do we do, or may we do, to those who are not worthy of having even their status as human being respected?

    Because I believe, based on extensive reading, that the Swift Boat vets were motivated by their own honestly held concerns, independent of any GOP interests, and even if they did (as I've always insisted) make some factual errors, I am not worth the dignity and respect accorded to all human beings.

    It seems all eliminationist-type sentiment does not reside solely on the Bush side of the aisle.

    ReplyDelete
  64. >Some of them really are patriotic and not anti-military<

    Sorry but...What a totally evil phrase.

    Patriotic and Pro-military are NOT synonyms.

    The fact that people use those words as if they are has totally poisoned the debate about the direction our country shoud take,

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  65. Hypatia:

    If those with whom Bush served and the officers to whom he reported had risen up in significant numbers to claim he gamed the system & all the other accusations leveled, I would have listened to them.

    Actually, the problem was a bit the opposite. Despite a financial reward, they had trouble finding anyone that could state that they'd actually run into Dubya in Alabama. And the one or two they finally dragged up weren't all that credible (Dubya spending his time reading magazines about flight safety? C'mon, you know he probably had a Playboy stuffed in there if that's what they say).

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  66. Anonymous3:19 PM

    From phd9 at 3:09PM:

    "Patriotic and Pro-military are NOT synonyms."

    Absolutely! Both concepts carry with them a complex set of facets and attributes, and can certainly reside side-by-side in one's outlook, but they are NOT automatically interchangable.

    As I said in an earlier thread, the Republicans have become the 'pro-war' party. Sadly, this has become conflated (often deliberately in my estimation) with the honest love of our country we all hold dear. Bart is something of a case in point.

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  67. Hypatia:

    This all gets extraordinarily complicated, but in general what happened is this: Several hundred of them, many of whom in fact did serve directly w/ Kerry, were on an email list. They read his version of events as set forth in a biography timed to come out for the campaign. They compared their recollections with the contents of that book, and found many exaggerations and lies.....[anonanon]

    Hypatia, put down nthe KoolAid. Now. You'll thank me for it later.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  68. grand moff texan: For example, I encounter far too many lefties, for instance, who've bought the image of Bush as a Texan. He is not. It seems I am forever defending the honor of my state.

    I know. I love it when Bushites make their idol out to be just a common guy. Hell I'd done more physical labor by the time I was 11 than Bush (still) has done his whole life.

    One of the better examples for me of this contradiction between image and fact came in an interview CNN's Wolf Blitzer had with a race car driver--head, I think, of the race car drivers for GW. Anyway, this pretty famous driver is telling Blitzer about how GW's just a regular old boy, race-drivin loving man, etc. etc. Then Blitzer chimes in with some facts about Bush's Yalie education, his millions-dollar background, and so on. Taken aback a bit, the driver gathers his thoughts and then keeps on unfazed with his polishing up of the image of GW as the working man's guy.

    Now was this guy prevaricating in a calculating, hypocritical way? Not at all. The example simply shows how effective and successful the Rovian image-spinners are/were. People want or seek a leader who confirms something they need to fill. The effete, Boston-Mandarin-wannabe Kerry doesn't fill that need for me either. But the fact that he and Bush shared more than just earning C averages at Yale will not even register with the Bushites.

    Now, we can go blue in the face trying to prove that Bush is not the man whom his idolizers think he is. We can print fact after fact after fact. Until we get at this will to believe that Bush is this, that, or the other thing, we'll never disabuse them of their illusion.

    This latter issue would take another tactic, another rhetorical strategy than many if not most political pundits etc know about, much less want to know about. It goes to the heart of how to de-condition someone of their false beliefs, a process that requires deeply psychological, epistemological, and poetizing skills.

    But that's another story...

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  69. Hypatia:

    When the Swift Boat vets first began to become high profile in August of '04, my initial reaction was horror. Like most, I assumed this was some GOP maneuver, but one demonstrating sheer stupidity in that it was going to backfire badly. So, I went into a frenzy of researching who these men were, how they got started, and especially who John O'Neill was. Now, I could no doubt earn all kinds of approval at a site like this if I "proved" my honesty and even-handedness by saying the Swift Boat vets were nothing but a pack of Rove-sponsored liars. But based on my investigation of them, I believe that to be untrue.

    As Glenn was saying.....

    If you "investigated" O'Neill, you'd know this crock you're spoting is untrue.

    You're being given the information now. You don't have to take what you've read on the RW sites at face value. Volume is not veracity. Still time to make amends.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anonymous3:33 PM

    John O'Neill was a Humphrey Democrat when he agreed in the 70s to work with Nixon to counter the accusations that all soldiers in Vietnam all the way up through the chain of command were operating as war criminals.

    Do you have some credible evidence of this assertion, that John O'Neill was a Humphrey Democrat when he agreed in the 70s to work with Nixon, other than John O'Neill?

    Perhaps he was, it doesn't really matter because Cold war Democrats did some pretty stupid things themselves. Now this the assertion that Kerry said that all soldiers in Vietnam all the way up through the chain of command were operating as war criminals is another assertion I would like to see some credible evidence for. I know he made some statements that you may wish to take out of context or distort, because of you hatred for different economic systems that YOU don't like.

    Now, as a matter of fact, and I chose those words precisely because of their meaning, emphasis on fact, we got involved in an internal matter in a foreign country, illegally, a civil war, in fact, and used a ruse/lie similar to the ones to get us into Iraq to convince the American people to go along. It's called the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Look it up, and not a wingnut site. Find something credible. Now have a look at this, and tell me Kerry was/is a liar. It would be better to look at the whole Pulitzer prize winning series the Toledo Blade did on this, it took over a year, but if baby killing, rape and decapitation, (and that's just a taste), isn't your cup of tea, don't read it. And this wasn't a one off like My Lai. This unit Tiger Force, did this systematically for 16 months, that we know about, because that's what it was formed for and supposed to do.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Anonymous3:34 PM

    On ths subject of the Authoritarian Cultist debacle:

    Here is a link to Glenn's original post.

    Here is a link to one of my replies asking for 3 things:

    (1) supporting examples - I had the idea that it was hard to evaluate evidence that had not been offered, and wanted to see some;

    (2) a quick test of the re-labeling hypothesis as it applied to Heather Wilson, (R, NM), who had recently criticized Bush on the NSA program and was due (in Glenn's vision) for a re-labeling as a liberal;

    (3) an explanation of the rebellion by The Cult over Harriet Miers or immigration reform.

    Glenn's description of his response in the comment thread above was this:

    When - in response to their request for such examples -- I provided five examples, including by and against some of the most influential conservatives in the country, the resopnse was: "Oh, look, he's providing individual EXAMPLES as though that proves the trend." They asked for examples; when I provided them, they claimed that examples prove nothing. It was a sad and dishonest tactic that I ignored.

    This is actually almost as amusing as his first formulation - his current theme seems to be that if he offers examples, it is sad and dishonest to say that the examples on offer don't actually amount to much. Maybe in Glenn's world, all examples are created equal - worth considering, but in my world, some examples are less convincing than others. Sorry.

    Well. In his "Examples" post, he struck a different note - facts are for intellectual cowards!

    From his post:

    Tom, as well as Taranto, exhibit a good amount of intellectual cowardice by purposely refusing to say whether they actually dispute the existence of this phenomenon or whether they simply think that I provided insufficiently clear examples of it.

    Little did I know that in Glenn's corner of the Reality Based Community, folks don't need to see the evidence before reaching a conclusion.

    Whatever. The Dubai deal broke about a day later, Republicans revolted, and the whole Authoritarian Cultist meme died its natural death, having met its goal of producing a bit of chatter and traffic.

    I replied to the "Examples" post here, for folks who care to judge my cowardice and dishonesty. Also sadness.

    Tom Maguire

    ReplyDelete
  72. Anonymous3:41 PM

    Gulf of Tonkin incident. Recently declassified document prove what most of us knew all along. It was the same kind of con they are still using to get us to OK, and pay for, the illegal and unnecessary invasion of other little countries that are no threat to us, just because we have to decide for them how they should handle their affairs. Laissez faire, my ass!

    ReplyDelete
  73. Anonymous3:57 PM

    Hypatia:

    When the Swift Boat vets first began to become high profile in August of '04, my initial reaction was horror. Like most, I assumed this was some GOP maneuver, but one demonstrating sheer stupidity in that it was going to backfire badly. So, I went into a frenzy of researching who these men were, how they got started, and especially who John O'Neill was.


    Sheer stupidity? Yet it took you in. While many of here are willing to you the benefit of the doubt and accept that you are really interested in the truth, many on the right could care less in the truth, they know it's all bullshit, and they still approve and take part in it. Some just continue to delude themselves.

    Sheer stupidity. You were right about one thing, however. given the current situation, I guess you could say it bacfired. You won't get any argument from most of us on that score.

    How's it going with the baby raping and hacking and stuff? Maybe if you keep a bucket by the computer....

    ReplyDelete
  74. Anonymous4:06 PM

    Do you have some credible evidence of this assertion, that John O'Neill was a Humphrey Democrat when he agreed in the 70s to work with Nixon, other than John O'Neill?

    Well, the source is in fact John O'Neill - captured on the Nixon tapes saying so to Richard Nixon, and telling Nixon that he did not vote for him. O'Neill said he was and hailed from a family of Democrats, a fact I would guess could be easily enough debunked if what he told Nixon (not knowing he was being recorded) wasn't true.

    In any event, my sole purpose was to disagree with Arne L. that acceptance of the Swift Vet arguments constituted proof of dishonesty on the part of Captain Ed. I disagree, but arguing all the details of the myriad issues touching on that controversy is an energy sink I don't want to jump into. And taking the position I do invites being literally dismissed as sub-human -- I don't mind rancorous debate, but will admit finding attacks on that level unpleasant. Didn't like it much when a Bush supporter a few weeks ago told me to "fuck off and die," and don't like vicious attacks from the left either.

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  75. Anonymous4:41 PM

    Like I said, O'Neill's party affiliations, or anyone's for that matter, are irrelevant and rendered moot by their actions in public and again in the privacy of the voting booth. Nice dodge on the crucial issue of truth about America's involvement in Viet Nam and every other adventure since then.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Anonymous4:53 PM

    Anonymous said:

    "The repugs like to nip that discussion in the bud by slandering those that would speak, calling it "class warfare."

    According to Warren Buffet it is class warfare, and his class is winning.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Anonymous5:06 PM

    anon:Nice dodge on the crucial issue of truth about America's involvement in Viet Nam and every other adventure since then.

    It isn't "crucial" to any issue currently under discussion, and in fact is wildly off topic. In anaswering Arne L's assertion about Captain Ed vis-a-vis the Swift Boat vets, I did not agree to turn this thread into a debate over the Viet Nam war.

    When Glenn (again) posts on that subject, perhaps then.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Anonymous5:18 PM

    Well, the source is in fact John O'Neill - captured on the Nixon tapes saying so to Richard Nixon, and telling Nixon that he did not vote for him. O'Neill said he was and hailed from a family of Democrats, a fact I would guess could be easily enough debunked if what he told Nixon (not knowing he was being recorded) wasn't true.

    He was lying through his teeth. I went to law school with the man and he was a raving right-wing loon who worshipped Nixon and Rehnquist (for whom he clerked on the Supreme Court). If he didn't vote for Nixon, then he was unconscious at the time.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Anonymous6:07 PM

    You guys are STILL refighting the '04 election over the swifties??

    Full disclosure...Vietnam vet here.

    The swifties may be wrong in many respects but the problem with calling them liars is a bit unfair since the Kerry campaign declined on so many factual issues to specifically rebut their assertions. For example, Kerry's "Christmas in Cambodia" claim is a complete fabrication.

    Kerry to this date has not released his military records. He may claim he has but where can I get my copy?

    My biggest gripe with Kerry was his trashing of American soldiers before Congress. There are indisputable facts here...most of the swifty ads dealt with those.

    noah

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  80. Anonymous7:06 PM

    Why would anyone attack you? You didn't say anything worth responding to.

    ReplyDelete
  81. Anonymous7:13 PM

    Mr. Rosenberg, you need not convince me, the people you need to convince would be such as these:

    Cmdr. Paul Galanti first heard John Kerry’s 1971 Senate “testimony” about alleged war atrocities committed by U.S. troops when he was a POW in Vietnam and his captors played it over the public address system at the “Hanoi Hilton” prison camp. For years, the North Vietnamese tortured POWs to try to get them to admit they were war criminals and had razed villages and tortured and killed many innocent civilians -- crimes they never committed.

    Much of that testimony is now discredited (even Kerry distances himself from it) and -- according to Galanti, veterans groups, and archive video footage of Kerry preparing for the testimony -- was made up by Kerry and his group, Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

    In one of the Swift Vets TV ads, Galanti says, “John Kerry gave the enemy for free what I and many of my comrades in North Vietnam, in the prison camps, took torture to avoid saying. It demoralized us.”

    ... Galanti can’t be labeled a bitter George Bush partisan, though -- he ran Republican senator and fellow ex-POW John McCain’s presidential campaign in Virginia during the 2000 primaries (working against Bush), and he endorsed Democrat Gov. Mark Warner.


    Again, if Captain Ed listened to men like Paul Galanti, there is nothing at all dishonest about that.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Anonymous7:31 PM

    "Bush defenders" is a propaganda term.

    By using it Greenwald seeks to deny that there is a legitimate basis upon which anyone could agree with Bush on anything.

    There really are people who agree with certain of Bush's actions on their merits and who are defending that belief, and who are not engaged in reflexive partisanship.

    But Greenwald is the person who coined the disgusting, disgraceful and false "authoritarian cultists" smear, so there is zero chance that he will concede that any of his partisan enemies are acting in a genuine fashion.

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  83. anon@7:31pm: But Greenwald is the person who coined the disgusting, disgraceful and false "authoritarian cultists" smear...

    c'mon, you gotta be kidding dude. You know the remnants of the Comintern, in alliance with al-Qaeda's crack advertising firm and Zarqawi's sound people came up with it... what a hoot you liberals are, dude.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Anonymous8:10 PM

    Ignore that anonymous ignoramous...

    Just breaking at Think Progress

    BREAKING: Rove’s Legal Troubles More Extensive Than Previously Reported

    Bart,

    Warm up that typewriter. We'll see you when your book comes out.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Anonymous8:13 PM

    And Limbaugh arrested! At TP!

    ReplyDelete
  86. Anonymous8:24 PM

    "Hypatia" said...
    anon:Nice dodge on the crucial issue of truth about America's involvement in Viet Nam and every other adventure since then.

    It isn't "crucial" to any issue currently under discussion, and in fact is wildly off topic. In anaswering Arne L's assertion about Captain Ed vis-a-vis the Swift Boat vets, I did not agree to turn this thread into a debate over the Viet Nam war.

    When Glenn (again) posts on that subject, perhaps then.

    5:06 PM


    Not as good of a dodge. Kerry didn't lie about what he knew. He knew about Tiger Force, and many other atrocities and war crimes committed by our troops in Nam when he testified before congress. Not all troops. Some even risked their lives to stop crimes, but our having beeen there at all is and was a crime. Grand Moff Texan is a Texan, so he's not like the rest of us, and may have been a bit extreme in your view, It didn't really bother me. He didn't hack your head off and wear your ears on a necklace, but you truly are morally bankrupt, Hypatia. Good day, to you, Ma'am. I'm done with you.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Anonymous8:28 PM

    Anonymous said...
    You guys are STILL refighting the '04 election over the swifties??

    Full disclosure...Vietnam vet here.


    Yeah, yeah which one of the 50,000 different SEAL teams were you on?

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous8:38 PM

    For clarity, there were never anymore than 600 actual Nam vet SEAL team members in Nam during the entire course of the war. The weren't many men in those elite units. There are at least 50,000 of them now, all SEAL team members in Nam. You can find them all over the internets like pedophiles and on any bar stool in any cheap dive in red state. Recondo, SEAL MACV-SOG, you name it. We got more live SEAL vets running around than total troops killed in the war. And even if you are a Nam vet, that doesn't give you special dispensation to be an idiot.

    So many just look at all the websites devoted to tracking them down and busting them. The actual vets don't think it's funny.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Anonymous8:43 PM

    Great post, Paul. They won't read it. Even if is was shorter. I did and will again.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Anonymous9:17 PM

    The truth is non-partisan. Facts are non-partisan. Spin is partisan.

    Spinning is lying. I've heard the "Saddam kicked the inspectors out," spin/lie arguing with Republicans so many times I've permanantly bookmarked this link to non-partisanly expose their error of fact. Are they ever contrite?

    No, pointing out the lie doesn't have any effect. For some reason, being a liar doesn't seem to bother some people anymore. Perhaps it is a result of the "greed is good" 90s, anything goes. Or the Limbaugh/Hannity/O'Reilly Axis of Invective, never verify, never apologize. They teach their followers that anything, no matter how wrong and idiotic, can be passed off if delivered with enough sneer and all-knowing tone of voice.

    How as a society will we re-instill people's personal responsibility to not lie? Shun liars. Don't listen to their radio shows, don't watch their shout-fests, don't accept their dinner invitations.

    You shun politicians by not voting for them. Bill Frist lied to our faces about Terri Schiavo's neurological condition, and he still has a job that requires honor. Anyone who votes for Frist knowing that he lied to our faces is an idiot.

    Because in a country of 350+ million people we don't have to tolerate liars representing us. We can find better representatives.

    I won't get into Bush.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Anonymous10:06 PM

    besides, if you don't think our chimperor is a monkey, just ask any chimp. They are rigorously honest you know, well, not the one in the White House, but the ones in the jungle.

    Be careful, however, cuz the all throw feces...

    ReplyDelete
  92. Hypatia:

    In any event, my sole purpose was to disagree with Arne L. that acceptance of the Swift Vet arguments constituted proof of dishonesty on the part of Captain Ed.

    I don't think I said he was dishonest, other than in the sense "intellectually dishonest". I do think he's not a very honourable person, due to that and other acts. I think he's become a bit of a tool and a whore, and just like many on the right, his "dishonesty" is an understandable and predictable (but certainly not commendable and in fact discrediatble) response to the situation(s) he put himself in (which is why it's quite common amongst the RW nowadays, those that aren't out-and-out deliberately dishonest). Nonetheless, a fair bit of what he does and enables is trash. And it should be countered and denounced by any that believe in honour and fair play.

    The "Swift Boat" accusations went far beyond quibbiling about what days Kerry spent on a boat and if he ended up on the Cambodian side of the river (like that's some momentous issue, even if their unproven allegations could somehow be shown to be true). What was O'Neill's screed again? Oh yeah: "Unfit For Command". Not "We Say Kerry Fibbed About Christmas In Cambodia And You Should Believe Us Because We're Vets Just Like Kerry But With A Lot Less Medal On Our Chests" I know that Cap'n Ed spent a lot of time going over this trivia in obsessive detail along with his more RW foamer correspondents; I was there (until Ed banned me (amongst other things) for having the temerity to explain to a self-styled "professor" a few scientific facts.... But the fact remains that the "Swift Boat Vets" attack (and that's precisely what it was, an attack, not an attempt to set the record straight on a few disputable and ultimately forgettable points). They went after his medals, Hypatia. But first, he didn't give himself the medals, and second, the military isn't in the habit of giving medals like the Silver and Bronze Stars to poseurs, and the contemporary records show at least an arguable case for the merit of the medals. Their campaign was "anything to besmirch Kerry", and their reason was they hated his guts (for other reasons), or in the case of Merrie Spaeth simply because she was a Republican operative trying to smear him on behalf of Dubya.

    Say Hypatia:

    Do a Google on Merrie Spaeth and Jerome Corzi. That ought to give you an idea of who the "swift Boat Vets" are.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  93. Hypatia:

    And taking the position I do invites being literally dismissed as sub-human -- I don't mind rancorous debate, but will admit finding attacks on that level unpleasant. Didn't like it much when a Bush supporter a few weeks ago told me to "fuck off and die," and don't like vicious attacks from the left either.

    I don't like it either when people do that to you, either, because I think you are one of the more open people from a RW/libertarian background around. I don't think you're anywhere near the same as the troll HWSNBN.

    But in this case, I really think you didn't do your homework, and you need to go back and look to see what the other side said about the "Swift Boat Vets" and their charges, and then go look at what the Swifties and the RNC Mighty Wurlitzer was saying and doing in flogging the Swiftie charges, and re-evaluate. Just check out this beauty from Malkin (aside from the obvious absurdity of the charge, the Swifties and/or Malkin are confusing two different incidents in which Kerry got wounded). There's more links here. Knowledge is power.

    At the very least, Hypatia, I'd hope you'd agree that this argumentum ad hominem is a low-water mark for political campaigning.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  94. anonymous:

    The swifties may be wrong in many respects but the problem with calling them liars is ...

    ... is that they were liars?

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  95. Anonymous11:49 PM

    Swift Boat vets, eh. Not sure how they came up as I just read Glen's posts of today and looked in and saw this discussion. I'll read through to see how they came up but I remember when they first showed up I looked into their charges to see what it was all about. Its been long enough I don't remember many specifics but the general impression I got was that they (the SW Vets) had a right to say anything they wanted, and it was up to the MSM to check the vailidity. Which they didn't very well at all. FOX spent a month or more acting as if it was one guy's word against a whole bunch of other guys' words and they don't add up--so who's lying--Kerry, or all the guys who say otherwise. Which even Bill O'Reilly (that Bush-bashin lib) wouldn't go along with as he saw what I saw after I looked into it.

    When I looked into the details I saw rumors that had been floated for years among guys that didn't like what Kerry had done when he got back from Nam. Upon his announcement to run, these guys talked to each other and felt compelled to let the world know what they thought. Which is fine.

    But it turned out their stories all were of the "I knew a guy who said Kerry...(did something stupid/awful/evil/incompetent etc) variety. When pressed they all would claim they knew somebody who knew "for sure because he was there." When checked against actual after-action reports the guy who supposedly "was there" wasn't named, and the guys who were named all agreed with Kerry that he(Kerry had acted heroically/as claimed/looking out for his men/medalled etc, and the guy who the SW Vets claimed was an "eye witness" hadn't been there at all. The guy who had told all the SW vets he had been there was all fired up at first to tell his (bogus) tale. When the facts emerged he quit taking questions and pretty much disappeared. many others who had signed affidavits for the SW Vets came forward and said they regretted having done so and couldn't really vouch for the veracity of the claims they'd made in the affidavits. of course the affidavits had been writen up by others and handed over to thses guys with much pressure to sign them.

    It was so clear-cut it made it obvious what had happened. The typical thing that does. A bunch of guys all talked to one another for 30 years until they were just sure their version had to be the right one. But as always is the case with rumors, their stories were just stories, and when pressed their stories fell apart.

    The MSM is responsible for making sure that rumors are kept out of legitimate debate, especially when elections are on the line. The SW Vets are just guys with the right to think whatever they want. It wasn't their responsibility to vet the stories. The MSM completely failed in its job to act as a check on claims.
    But what else is new?
    Liberal Maureen Dowd was responsible for many of the lies about Gore that became CW among liberal and MSM figures in 2000. The media has had its own agenda for some time now, and it has more to do with the massive egos of pundits than it does with any liberal/conservative conflict. So you can't blame the righties for the failure of the MSM to tell us the truth.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Anonymous12:06 AM

    Hypatia has more than earned the right to be taken seriously around here. Her essays on the Drug War alone put her in my high esteem. I disagree with her at times, but I have no doubt I will always be able to have a reasonable hearing with her, should I choose to. But from reading her posts i know i better have my ducks in a row.

    Most of the time I don't feel strongly enough about the things I've disagreed with her on to bother countering. I can live with a healthy amount of disagreement. Its good for a political system when people disagree, unless its about fundamental stuff like Bush thinking he has monarchical powers. I've been holding off until Affirmative Action becomes topical ::wink:: but if she says something I feel strongly about, I'll bring it up. If she has an opinion, I'm sure it'll be well-founded and I know she's open to debate. In this case I agree with Arne that she would gain from a look into some of the counterclaims.

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  97. Anonymous12:38 AM

    Strange to see Glenn Greenwald referred to as a liberal (as in left leaning) blogger. I came and stayed here because I view Unclaimed Territory as the only real Objectivist blog on the Internet.

    I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    Yesterday, Wintermute linked to a psychological test (you can find and take the test by going to his site) which is designed to establish what are an individual's proclivities for and tolerance of fascism

    Once you take the test, you get your score and these are the different categories:

    If your score is...

    You are...

    Less than 2 A whining rotter.

    2 to 3 A liberal airhead.

    3 to 4.5 Within normal limits; an appropriate score for an American. (The overall average score for groups tested in the original study is listed in the 1950 publication as 3.84, with men averaging somewhat higher and women somewhat lower.)

    4.5 to 5.5 You may want to practice doing things with your left hand.

    5.5 or higher Have trouble keeping the lint off your black shirts?


    I wasn't surprised that I did not fall into the "normal limits". (Anyone who has read my posts on this blog was probably not suprised either :)

    I was a little surprised to find out that not only am I a "liberal airhead" according to this test, but if I had answered only one question differently (and there were a few which tempted me), I would be a "whining rotter." I landed up tottering on the borderline :)

    This despite the fact that I am a truly passionate defender of the United States Constitution, a laissez-faire capitalist, libertarian flavored believer in a just Rule of Law, and anything but an anarchist.

    I have already stated that I don't like any uninvited intrusions into my "space" which I few as impediments in my own pursuit of happiness. It is only marginally less upsetting to me to see someone else's space being invaded and pursuit of happiness being compromised. I guess that is what a love of justice is all about.

    If I pass by a microphone with a voice behind which is speaking directly to me, I will stop and listen even if I didn't "invite" that voice into my space.

    I see Unclaimed Territory as such a microphone, and Glenn Greenwald as that voice.

    There are two reasons for that.

    The secondary reason is my desire to support someone who holds positions and is taking actions which I think may be key in helping to "save our country."

    My main reason, however, is I want to vigorously support someone whose views and actions may help to save "me."

    Funny how those two reasons are the exact same reason. No conflict here. Move on.

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  98. Anonymous12:48 AM

    That's why a then-Democrat like O'Neill was willing to counter Kerry's group libel."

    Let me say it again. I went to law school with O'Neill and he was a Nixon-loving right-wing fanatic at the time, who went from law school to a Supreme Court clerkship with Rehnquist,-- whom he considered his soul-mate. He was not a Democrat then (1973) and he's lying if he says he was. And what's this "group libel" nonsense? Numerous war crimes were committed in Vietnam (the war itself was a crime, but let's not get into that) and Kerry brought back the news to the American people. It's not libel if it's the truth.

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  99. Anonymous1:00 AM

    Wow - I thought the swift boats thing was over - but holy moly.

    I think this touches on a couple of things that I have been thinking for a while, so this might be kinda long-winded, sorry.

    First, I haven't been this bothered by a recurring thread in these comments since Hypatia was arguing a few weeks ago that:
    (a)the Hollywood Blacklist didn't cause anyone any harm, and
    (b)all people who may possibly have been harmed by it were rabid Stalinists because they
    (i)had attended a Communist party meeting at some point and everyone who attended had to swear a blood oath to Joseph Stalin or else they couldn't be in attendance because the Communist Party USA was run from mother Russia.

    Not to confuse the two issues, but I think it is of note that there are certain anti-communist topics which seem to make Hypatia somewhat partial to reading biased evidence.

    The Swift Boaters ....aaaahhhhhhh....

    I mean - I'm 36 years old and most of that time, honestly, I've been a squandering wastrel. So I don’t judge those who have served. And I also was not alive during Vietnam to be able to say that I lived through it.

    But I'm not entirely ignorant of the era and the domestic issues (the American ones) involved.

    I lean left, and am not immune to the same sort of bias on readings that I mentioned above, so am open to being taken to task here. But almost nothing that I have read would lead me in any way to believe that our leadership did right by the American people or the US military in Vietnam.

    This is not an accusation against the American military, or an advocacy for a communist regime in South Vietnam. But I would be comfortable in indicting American policy in Vietnam, 1955-1975, as being arrogant, stupid, and wrong.

    To sacrifice some of my own credibility here – the Communists in Vietnam – they were the ones who had managed to throw off the French Colonial Yoke, they were the local revolutionaries - however flawed, however brutal to our POW’s after we invaded in order to try and prop up our own dictatorial puppet regimes.

    I think we sacrificed a lot of our moral energy and worldwide credibility on a cause that was not lost, but wrong.

    If it were right to go into Vietnam, I think Eisenhower, or Kennedy, or Johnson, or Nixon, could have honestly gone to the American people and said, “here’s the situation, here’s what we are going to do about it, back us up.” They never did that.

    They lied, and misled, and misstated, and low-balled, and just effed everything up, and 50,000 Americans got killed,.

    I think those presidents didn’t do that because we weren’t there for the right reasons. I think we were there because we had a fear of communism (certainly a healthy one, don’t get me wrong). But we were fighting the folks who were actually trying to make their country better.

    There is a really telling moment in Ellsberg’s Secrets where he sees a huge section of Vietnamese farmland that we had used chemical exfoliants on in the process of liberating it. One one side is lush farmland, where the communists were hiding, and on the other side was craters, and smoke, and nothing growing, where we had “liberated.”

    I imagine that if I had been there I would have been scared shitless.

    In many ways, there is no way that I feel comfortable talking about war, and combat …

    Ernest Hemingway wrote a story after the first world war called "A Soldier's Home" about how it was very rude to ask a soldier what he'd seen when he got back home. I think a lot of people, including me, clammed up when a civilian asked about battle, about war. It was fashionable. One of the most impressive ways to tell your war story is to refuse to tell it, you know. Civilians would then have to imagine all kinds of deeds of derring-do.

    But I think the Vietnam war freed me and other writers, because it made our leadership and our motives seem so scruffy and essentially stupid. We could finally talk about something bad that we did to the worst people imaginable, the Nazis. And what I saw, what I had to report, made war look so ugly. You know, the truth can be really powerful stuff. You're not expecting it.

    Of course, another reason not to talk about war is that it's unspeakable.
    - Kurt Vonnegut

    To impugn a man’s character because he made a moral decision about the activities of his country in situations like this is somewhat despicable, although in the case of veterans who felt betrayed, I can understand it.

    Accusations of treason are hard to stomach, though. Would you rather they kept silent, knowing those things? What’s the line – how do you ask someone to be the last man to die for a mistake? I think those who serve honorably honor their country and themselves. I think those who follow their conscience with honor do so as well.

    The comments above about the Winter Soldier Investigation and Kerry’s testimony to congress are right on – they were about the behavior of the leadership, not a condemnation of, nor a betrayal of, the US military and its participants as a whole.

    I have always wanted to ask of someone who made the claim that these people were “aiding and abetting the enemy” something: how would you have recommended that these people behave in order to satisfy the demands of conscience? Just assume, for a second, that they were acting in good faith, on a moral imperative, having realized that their country had stumbled into a morass of lies and deceit. How should they have done things differently to change the course of our nation’s political will? They took their stories and their information before the American public, and asked that the government “open its books.”

    If the Swift Boaters had a problem with that, they should have raised that issue, not a bunch of bullshit charges about Kerry’s medals.

    The whole thing reminded me of an old story about Lyndon Johnson, who towards the end of a tight race for Senate asked a staffer to leak a story that his opponent used his farm animals for carnal delight. “But LBJ, we can’t call the guy a pig-fucker.”
    “I don’t want to call him that, I want to hear the bastard deny it.”

    In the service of all the lies that got us into, and kept us in, Vietnam, Nixon called out the CREEPy Plumbers to violate the rights of American citizens who wanted nothing more than to know what the hell was being done in their name.

    I think that possibly the greatest mistake of the past forty years was pardoning him. Because now we are fighting the same damn war all over again.

    Not in Iraq. Or Vietnam.

    Here.

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  100. Anonymous1:02 AM

    Sorry if that post is really long and disjointed.

    Often the things I most want to say are the things I have the hardest time articulating. That's why I read this blog, really. Cause Glenn and others here are able either to articulate them, or get me thinking about them in a way that makes it easier to get to the articulation.

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  101. Anonymous1:37 AM

    If people keep lodging ad hominem attacks at hypatia rather than just differing with the points she makes in her posts, I am going to write to Glenn and ask him to block those people who keep doing that.

    If someone writes a post advocating murder or torture, I think it's okay to attack the person himself and call him a murderer and a torturer. Why lie?

    But Hypatia is one of the few most articulate writers on this site, she goes out of her way to take the time to address the issues raised by others, and she brings to her own posts the benefit of a tremendous amount of previous research, thinking and reflection about the issues she addresses.

    I look forward to her posts and I find it very stressful to keep reading these personal attacks on her, especially by these cowardly "anons."

    Glenn, thank you for hosting this blog and inviting us all to participate. Please protect your generally polite invited "guests" from nasty, personal, mean-spirited and unproductive attacks by other guests who are so consistently abusive.

    A warning might be a good idea, because the best of us "fall from grace" once in a while if we get too passionate about an issue.

    But consistent violations after a warning should, in my opinion, be dealt with.

    I'll go first and issue my own mea culpa to anyone to whom I was unfair or mean, except of course murderers and torturers.

    Sorry, all. I'll try to correct that mistake of mine. Can everyone else do the same?

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  102. Anonymous2:18 AM

    Nick said:

    "I lean left, and am not immune to the same sort of bias on readings that I mentioned above, so am open to being taken to task here. But almost nothing that I have read would lead me in any way to believe that our leadership did right by the American people or the US military in Vietnam."

    As a Viet Nam vet I can confirm that you are exactly right. The sad fact is that the leadership were the only ones that paid no price for their actions. The worst ones were Johnson and McNamara. Johnson because he lied to expand the war using the Gulf of Tonkin incident as an excuse to wring concessions from Congress. After which he micromismanaged the war and was responsible directly for a large number of the 58,000 deaths we suffered there. McNamara for the same reason.

    Had the leadership paid a price I don't think we would be in Iraq today.

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  103. Anonymous2:32 AM

    Armagednoutahere said...
    Hypatia has more than earned the right to be taken seriously around here. Her essays on the Drug War alone put her in my high esteem.

    Seconded.

    Eyes Wide Open said...

    Glenn, thank you for hosting this blog and inviting us all to participate. Please protect your generally polite invited "guests" from nasty, personal, mean-spirited and unproductive attacks by other guests who are so consistently abusive.

    I think we can let Glenn drive and take care of most back seat shenanigans ourselves.

    I'll go first and issue my own mea culpa to anyone to whom I was unfair or mean, except of course murderers and torturers.

    I know you love animals but I think you were unfair to Gris Lobo on the hunting issue. (keeping worm can closed, lest I go fishing)

    It couldn't hurt any of us to learn more about other people and be a little understanding instead of judgmental:)

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  104. Anonymous3:02 AM

    Paul Rosenberg included in his post the following statement:


    "They have set up separate companies," writes an American soldier from Cu Chi, quoted in the New York Times, "for men who refuse to go into the field. Is no big thing to refuse to go. If a man is ordered to go to such and such a place he no longer goes through the hassle of refusing; he just packs his shirt and goes to visit some buddies at another base camp. Operations have become incredibly ragtag. Many guys don't even put on their uniforms any more... The American garrison on the larger bases are virtually disarmed. The lifers have taken our weapons from us and put them under lock and key...There have also been quite a few frag incidents in the battalion."

    Can all this really be typical or even truthful?

    Unfortunately the answer is yes.


    I would like to know when the individual that said that served in Cu Chi and with what unit. I served there for a year with the 25th infantry div and can vouch for the fact that it wasn't that way when I was there.

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  105. Anonymous3:54 AM

    Eyes Wide Open said...
    If people keep lodging ad hominem attacks at hypatia rather than just differing with the points she makes in her posts, I am going to write to Glenn and ask him to block those people who keep doing that.


    Typical whiney-assed right wing response.

    If someone writes a post advocating murder or torture, I think it's okay to attack the person himself and call him a murderer and a torturer. Why lie?

    You do it, and condone it, and facilitate it and then tirn a blind eye to it everyday. You even vote for it, because your delusional fantasy world requires it. Why should we lie about it? You and Hypatia do enough lying to yourselves for the whole blog.

    But Hypatia is one of the few most articulate writers on this site, she goes out of her way to take the time to address the issues raised by others, and she brings to her own posts the benefit of a tremendous amount of previous research, thinking and reflection about the issues she addresses.

    Let's start excluding some folks you don't like. You can be the Maitre D'. Self appointed, of course. Hey, maybe we can take a vote.

    I look forward to her posts and I find it very stressful to keep reading these personal attacks on her, especially by these cowardly "anons."

    It's a free country. You are free to not read them. Hey, I don't think Eyes Wide Open is your real name. It's a misnomer in any case. Eyes Tightly Shut fits you better.

    WATB.

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  106. Anonymous4:06 AM

    and she brings to her own posts the benefit of a tremendous amount of previous research, thinking and reflection about the issues she addresses.

    Some of it is better than others. I've looked at her research on a few issues, and your idea of stuff people should read. It's to laugh at. You people seem attracted to things that don't gain a wide audience and are largely discredited by the academic and literary community. You whine alot. You are both self-deluded and blind. If Bush hadn't started spying on his own "subjects", you would both be over at some right wing nuthouse with your covering your eyes and ears and going, "la la la la la". You both are like the new sunshine patriots that Glenn's writing and book bring to the fore, and an update on the ones Tom Paine wrote about.

    "These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman."

    Listen, Bucko. You both arrived late at this party. Some of us, that would be all of us on the left, have been in these trenches and manning theses ramparts for years. If King George didn't offend and violate YOUR little laissez faire fantasy, neither of you would even be here.

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  107. Anonymous4:14 AM

    Gris lobo,

    No one doubts there were exceptions. Some units, like yours, obviously, maintained discipline, morale, unit cohesion and combat readiness, until it broke down, which could have been triggered by anything from high casualties among the veteran cadre or the single loss of the unit CO.

    This site is a concise look at fragging and combat refusals with stats.

    http://home.mweb.co.za/re/redcap/vietcrim.htm

    ReplyDelete
  108. Anonymous4:34 AM

    And EWO, I don't use the name or names I'd like to. One might conjure up images of a lewd act with Ayn Rand, the other we won't even talk about... Everyone must have a nick name approved by EWO. Anal retentive much?

    And Gris Lobo,

    I know I put this link here some other thread, it may have been for you, or Ender, I forget, so I will include it again. Sorry, it's late and I'm too tired and crank to do the html.

    Ender, did you find that link for the SOA DVD I left you on another thread??

    http://www.gustavhasford.com/home.htm

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anonymous4:35 AM

    Paul Rosenberg said...

    "Click the link, "The Collapse of the Armed Forces," and you'll know as much as I do about the soldier from Cu Chi. But I don't know why you'd want to question this, for two main reasons: (1) Of course conditions changed over the course of the war, no matter what part of Nam you were talking about. (2) The author, who was part of the military establishment at the time, not only didn't question it, he said:"

    (2)Being part of the military establishment at the time doesn't necessarily make one an expert on everything that happened or didn't happen in Viet Nam.

    (1)I didn't question it. I only stated that I served there for a year and that it wasn't that way when I was there. I would question it if the individual making the claim served there either at the time I did or before I got there. And I asked about the unit because there was more than one unit at Cu Chi. It could be true if it was another unit.

    At the same time because I was there and know that it wasn't that way in my unit or the other units we interacted with.

    And before because units in Viet Nam didn't come back from that much of a breakdown. The reason being that virtually all of us were rotated into and out of Viet Nam on an individual basis, not as complete units. Because of that, elimination of the rebellious ones would happen slowly and as they over time became the shortimers they would have had influence on the FNG's in the unit giving them the same attitude they had. That was how it worked, the FNG's listened to the guys that had been there for awhile if they wanted to survive to be a shortimer themselves because they had the knowledge.

    I can't speak to what happened after I left.

    And yes the story about Hamburger is true. What most people fail to mention is that the tactics were flawed and that is what eventually led to the rebellion and refusal to fight. The units involved were ordered to take Hamburger hill. Once it was taken they were ordered to leave it to go on to other missions. Once they left the VC re-infested the hill and they were ordered to take it again and ordered to leave again. It was either the third or fourth time the order came that it was refused. The enlisted men could see no reason (rightfully so IMO) to continue to take risks and losses to repeatedly take the same hill over and over again. The Commander should have been relieved but apparently wasn't. But that as famous as it was, was a rebellion against a singularly stupid set of orders against a singularly stupid Commander.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Anonymous4:54 AM

    Anonymous said...

    Gris lobo,

    "No one doubts there were exceptions. Some units, like yours, obviously, maintained discipline, morale, unit cohesion and combat readiness, until it broke down, which could have been triggered by anything from high casualties among the veteran cadre or the single loss of the unit CO.

    This site is a concise look at fragging and combat refusals with stats."

    Thanks for the link.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Anonymous5:05 AM

    Laissez faire, my ass!

    Please explain what this comment is meant to suggest. I don't follow.

    You don't think there is anyone, even one person, in this country who is saying we have a "laissez-faire" type of government here.

    Do you?

    If you think that, name the person.

    It's the LACK of a laissez-faire approach by government that is the whole problem.

    Lastnamechosen:

    I respectfully disagree with both your points. I am one who believes in principled loyalty as a primary concept.

    By this I do not mean being loyal to someone regardless of the issue just out of blind loyalty. Anything but.

    I do, however, think that loyalty to those whose primary values we share (in this case all the issues on which Glenn focuses) is important.

    If someone attacks Glenn unfairly, it feels like a personal insult to those of us who admire him and support his efforts and we thus defend him.

    I imagine Glenn, if he has time to think about it, would come up with that same conclusion.

    Free-for-alls are okay unless a bully slips into the room. Then I say, take action to protect those being bullied.

    This translates into the Golden Rule but I personally extend that to include "Do in defense of others what you would have others do in defense of you."

    But then, I am a whiny rotter :)

    Also, I hardly think I was unfair to any hunter.

    It would be wrong for me to refrain from speaking out against gross cruelty when someone else pops up in defense of it.

    If injustice, sadism, joy in killing, wanton insensitivity to the suffering of others and things like that were my cup of tea, I wouldn't even be here in the first place.

    OK. Now to weigh in on Vietnam, about which I know virtually nothing.

    That was a war fought during a time of national conscription. There are few things more immoral than a draft. Ordering A to risk his own life for an unknown, highly suspect and probably immoral cause and to kill and torture B in the process is too insane to even discuss.

    If people knew about torture and atrocities for 30 years and said nothing, I have absolutely no respect for those people. Think of how much more torture and atrocities happened in that interim because they were too cowardly to come forth in the beginning and bear witness to such awful crimes.

    From the little I have read, many VietCong were especially evil and engaged in such atrocities that I cannot stand to even read about them without getting physically sick.

    Still, that war was insane from the beginning and should never have been fought.

    As for Bush vs. Kerry? Tweedly Dee what-ev-eh and Tweedly Dum what-ev-eh.

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  112. Anonymous7:08 AM

    Eyes WIde Open said...
    Laissez faire, my ass!

    Please explain what this comment is meant to suggest. I don't follow.


    If you have to ask, you can't afford it.

    You don't think there is anyone, even one person, in this country who is saying we have a "laissez-faire" type of government here.

    Hey, you are the expert, right? The one who continually confuses economic systems with forms of government. I'll give you a hint...
    Foreign policy, as in don't let your government interfere with other governments or their chosen economic systems.

    Do you?



    If someone attacks Glenn unfairly, it feels like a personal insult to those of us who admire him and support his efforts and we thus defend him.


    Do you think Glenn wants to be the next object of your Ayn Rand/Love cult interest?

    But then, I am a whiny rotter :)

    You sure can be.

    At least you can see that and admit it, half joking.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous7:15 AM

    That was a war fought during a time of national conscription. There are few things more immoral than a draft. Ordering A to risk his own life for an unknown, highly suspect and probably immoral cause and to kill and torture B in the process is too insane to even discuss.

    And yet, you proceed to "discuss" it. You should have quit while you were ahead. Leave that grisly task of dealing with the ugly truths to those of us better equipped for the chore.

    Like my new name?

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous5:35 PM

    Gris Lobo said... The units involved were ordered to take Hamburger hill. Once it was taken they were ordered to leave it to go on to other missions. Once they left the VC re-infested the hill and they were ordered to take it again and ordered to leave again. It was either the third or fourth time the order came that it was refused. The enlisted men could see no reason (rightfully so IMO) to continue to take risks and losses to repeatedly take the same hill over and over again. The Commander should have been relieved but apparently wasn't. But that as famous as it was, was a rebellion against a singularly stupid set of orders against a singularly stupid Commander.

    This sounds familiar... Iraq.

    Call me insane, like Patton (and he may well have been, he was surely an "eccentric"), who hated to pay for the same real estate twice, I have always felt this is a matter that does not get discussed enough. Looking back now, in hindsight, we should have just gone and done this the first time under Poppy Bush, knowing what we know now. The first Bush was too much of an indecisive wimp, even Margaret Thatcher said that to him. And Junior... well... an idiot incapable of deliberation and immune to wiser counsel. He's the deciderer and he "hears the voices". We will never know but I tend to think we may have pulled it off better the first time around, and there are many reasons for that which I could get into, but won't, for brevity's sake. Just a thought. In this case, it's a bad family of commanders.

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  115. Anonymous5:46 PM

    Then again... Thatcher made this "invigorating" remark to Bush I when his first reaction to Saddam's invasion and annexation was to go, "So what?" Maybe he just should have told Maggie to go suck his draws. One thing's for damn sure. It's worse over there now, not better, (Bart. What an idiot! Even Bush totally contadicted Bart's arguments today). America's two-faced and contradictory foreign policies are most often her own worst enemy. Bart? Why did chimpy not get your taliking points? Or did he get them and just not read them. If he didn't read Bart's TPs, Chimpy may be smarter than many of us here give him credit for. Smarter than some of us even. We read Bart's TPs. At least some of us do.

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  116. Anonymous11:33 PM

    Paul Rosenberg said...

    "Missing The Forest For The Trees"

    I'm well aware of the story of Hamburger Hill. I'm also aware that, although an extreme example, it wasn't an isolated failure. In the eyes of many--very many--it was a metaphor for the entire war."

    And that is the problem that I have in that instance. A failure by whom, the average soldier in the field or an inept commander that was calling the shots? As I already noted in a previous post IMO the Commander giving the orders should have been relieved but wasn't. It wasn't the Commander that was charging the hill and taking the bullets or watching his friends get shot, and wounded, and killed. He wasn't a leader. A leader would have been the first up the hill and the last off. He sat some place safe, probably in a Huey circling high above the hill directing the action. Because he was not in personal danger he could afford the luxury of contuing to order others to their deaths. Do you believe that if he himself had been being shot at that he would have continued to order the retaking of the same hill over and over again? Personally I don't think so. I believe he would have seen the folly of what was being ordered and would have changed tactics. By isolating himself he avoided that.

    A paraphrase of a quote that I particularly like for that type of Commander is:

    Decisions made with casualness and swagger are the special province of those who have never had to execute those missions-or bury the results.

    Now lets take a look at the numbers behind what you say became a metaphor for the entire war. At the link that Anonymous posted The highest number of combat refusals happened in 1970, A total of 131 were convicted. But there were 500,000 troops in Viet Nam in 1970. So the "many" took incidents that amounted to less than 1% of what happened in Viet Nam and turned it into a metaphor for the entire war.

    The 499,869 that were not convicted of refusing combat were blamed for the 131 that were. Even if you consider that there are 11 men in a full squad which was the size unit that conducted patrols, and only one member of each squad that refused combat was convicted even though the whole squad may have refused combat, you still come out with a number that is far less than one percent.

    Do you see who it was that couldn't see the forest for the trees? Since when has less than 1% become a metaphor for all of anything. Except in Vietnam of course.

    So my problem is that what less than 1% did was used to blame everyone that served. And we all suffered not just during the war because of it but for years afterwards. We were called baby killers, and murderers. We were denied jobs just because we had served. We were painted as the bad soldiers who refused orders and fragged our Commanders. Many of us became homeless, some committed suicide.

    And to add the ultimate insult, when the public finally realized that the majority of us served as honorably as any of those before us, the ones that had been involved in painting us falsely with that broad brush that ruined so many of our lives, are now claiming to have served also.




    "That's why I'm a bit confused by your focus on this one second-hand quote"

    My focus is because I want to know whether the individual is telling the truth or not since it doesn't square with my experience with that unit. Mind you I am not calling him a liar, I want to know whether he is or not. If he is then I want him exposed as a liar. If he isn't then so be it. I seek the truth not any certain outcome.

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  117. Anonymous11:59 PM

    Anonymous said...

    Gris Lobo said... The units involved were ordered to take Hamburger hill. Once it was taken they were ordered to leave it to go on to other missions. Once they left the VC re-infested the hill and they were ordered to take it again and ordered to leave again. It was either the third or fourth time the order came that it was refused. The enlisted men could see no reason (rightfully so IMO) to continue to take risks and losses to repeatedly take the same hill over and over again. The Commander should have been relieved but apparently wasn't. But that as famous as it was, was a rebellion against a singularly stupid set of orders against a singularly stupid Commander.

    This sounds familiar... Iraq.

    Yes exactly like Iraq. The fighting has even been the same. After expending extensive resources in the toughest fight of the war in Fallujah the U.S. immediately left after the fight was over. The same as they did at Hamburger hill. And with the same results, the insurgents immediately began re-infiltrating the city as soon as the Americans left.



    "Looking back now, in hindsight, we should have just gone and done this the first time under Poppy Bush, knowing what we know now. The first Bush was too much of an indecisive wimp, even Margaret Thatcher said that to him. And Junior... well... an idiot incapable of deliberation and immune to wiser counsel. He's the deciderer and he "hears the voices". We will never know but I tend to think we may have pulled it off better the first time around"

    I still debate in my own mind as to whether it would have ever been wise to effect a regime change in Iraq. I do agree however that if we were going to do it that the time would have been during the first Gulf war. If for no other reason than the fact that we had the support of the world community, we had a real coalition, and we had others who were willing to help us pay for it.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Anonymous4:09 PM

    "What determines the accuracy of these observations isn't whether they exist on the level of generality but whether they are supported by documentation, evidence, credible sources, etc"

    What I most enjoy about essays like Mr. Greenwald's is the total lack of self-awareness. Glenn talks about the importance of "documentation, evidence, credible source, etc.," but in the essay I didn't find a single source or link or anything to support the inflamed rhetoric.

    There is extra irony in the fact that this burst of rhetoric was inspired by Instapundit's not acting like Mr. Greenwald claims he does.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anonymous8:10 PM

    Zennnurse,

    I totally disagree with you. I saw Bull Dog's comments, which were posted the other day on FDL, before they deleted and they were in no way inflamatory. It critisized Jane Hamsher for employing a censuring technique (see comment and link by Thesaurus Rex called . The comment was deleted after it was posted, with no evidence that the comment itself was redacted. Additionally, I personally read a thread where Jane and this other female blogger were in disagreement over the ethics that Arianna used when writing about some of George Clooney quotes.

    The commenters immediately sided with Jane and a pissing match ensued. The commenter's personal data was revealed and made fun of...then the trexing started. Malicious comments were added or amended to the dissenting commenter's posts at the amusement of Jane's gang. Filthy language was condoned and the bashing of this legitamate dissenter continued to the delight of FDLer's. Another poster, who was wanting to talk about House Rule 603 state impeachment procedings was told to, and I quote, "F... Off!" while the bashing continued.

    Well, now that state impeachment bills are a reality in Illinois and California, where is the apology or coverage on FDL? If amateur comedian commenters is what you want out of FDL's comments section: Say so. But to pretend that FDL is leading the charge for change and debating on real solutions: Forget it! FDL is a little clique of friends who enjoy putting down others to make themselves feel bigger.

    Tell me I am wrong. Show me your evidence.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Anonymous8:12 PM

    Zennnurse,

    I totally disagree with you. I saw Bull Dog's comments, which were posted the other day on FDL, before they deleted and they were in no way inflamatory. It critisized Jane Hamsher for employing a censuring technique (see comment and link by Thesaurus Rex called . The comment was deleted after it was posted, with no evidence that the comment itself was redacted. Additionally, I personally read a thread where Jane and this other female blogger were in disagreement over the ethics that Arianna used when writing about some of George Clooney quotes.

    The commenters immediately sided with Jane and a pissing match ensued. The commenter's personal data was revealed and made fun of...then the trexing started. Malicious comments were added or amended to the dissenting commenter's posts at the amusement of Jane's gang. Filthy language was condoned and the bashing of this legitamate dissenter continued to the delight of FDLer's. Another poster, who was wanting to talk about House Rule 603 state impeachment procedings was told to, and I quote, "F... Off!" while the bashing continued.

    Well, now that state impeachment bills are a reality in Illinois and California, where is the apology or coverage on FDL? If amateur comedian commenters is what you want out of FDL's comments section: Say so. But to pretend that FDL is leading the charge for change and debating on real solutions: Forget it! FDL is a little clique of friends who enjoy putting down others to make themselves feel bigger.

    Tell me I am wrong. Show me your evidence.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous8:16 PM

    Webmaster,

    Sorry but the post looks OK in the preview section. I double checked, hence the double post. Please delete one post and edit as appropriate.

    Thanks.

    ReplyDelete