Saturday, May 06, 2006

Avoiding judicial review

Over at Obsidian Wings, Hilzoy reports, via Reuters:

The United States said on Friday it had flown five Chinese Muslim men who had been held at the Guantanamo Bay prison to resettle in Albania, declining to send them back to China because they might face persecution.

The State Department said Albania accepted the five ethnic Uighurs -- including two whose quest for freedom went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court -- for resettlement as refugees.

Two of the Guantanamo detainees were determined long ago not to be enemy combatants, but the U.S. Government continued to hold them anyway, on the ground that they could not be returned to our good friend, China, because they would be tortured and killed there, but no other country would take them. As a result, the administration simply kept them in Guantanamo and fought their judicial efforts to be freed, even though they were guilty of nothing.

As pointed out by Hilzoy (who, incidentally, commented upon, and substantially improved, the manuscript to my book, and who has been following this case from the beginning):

Arguments in the Uighurs' appeal were scheduled to be heard on Monday morning. (I was going to go to DC to hear them.) I wish I could think it was just a coincidence that after over a year of searching, the administration found a country willing to take the Uighurs today. But I can't. This administration has built up quite a track record of freeing people (or, in Jose Padilla's case, bringing unrelated charges) just in time to render their appeals moot, thereby preventing the courts from finding their conduct illegal or unconstitutional.

I discussed this truly reprehensible tactic in my book at length. The administration has repeatedly claimed that it has ample legal justification for all sorts of extremist measures -- from indefinite detention of American citizens in military prisons without a trial, to its use of torture and rendition policies, to its eavesdropping on American citizens without warrants -- but it then invokes every possible maneuver to prevent judicial adjudication of the constitutionality and legality of its conduct.

The two most transparent and truly outrageous instances of these evasive maneuvers, as Hilzoy points out, were in the cases of Yaser Hamdi and Jose Padilla -- two American citizens whom the administration abducted (in Padilla's case, on U.S. soil) and threw into a military prison without bringing any charges or even allowing them access to a lawyer or any contact with the outside world. The administration held them there for years, claiming -- based solely on George Bush's secret decree -- that they were such dangerous terrorists that they had lost the constitutional right not to be imprisoned by the U.S. Government without a trial.

But when the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Hamdi had a right to challenge Bush's decree and that the administration therefore had to prove the validity of its factual allegations against him, the administration simply released Hamdi from its custody altogether. And in Padilla's case, the administration -- one week before its brief was due to the Supreme Court, which was to rule on the legality of Padilla's 3 1/2 year lawless incarceration -- suddenly and finally brought criminal charges against him, and then told the Supreme Court that there was no longer any need to rule on Padilla's claims that the administration had violated his constitutional rights, thus (yet again) avoiding a judicial determination of the legality of its conduct.

And now, they have done the same thing in the case of the Uighur detainees. As Hilzoy said:

Now, right before the Uighurs' case comes before the DC Circuit Court, the government has found a way to moot this appeal as well. If the Bush administration's lawyers and policy makers had the courage of their convictions, they would not be afraid to make their case in court, on the merits.

Of all the abuses and excesses engaged in by the administration, the one that I am endlessly amazed can prompt defenses -- even from the most zomibified Bush followers -- is the administration's claim to have the power to incarcerate - indefinitely - U.S. citizens without any charges. Even the administration knows that much of their conduct is indefensible, which is why they abandon their efforts when they are forced to defend the legality of their behavior.

31 comments:

  1. Great post. Maybe the topic for another book? How Corporate Mergers and Foreign Ownership Bankrupted The Fourth Estate? Anyway, I came across this op-ed in the LAT -- I think this is the only way for the truth to get out -- ordinary citizens reporting when reporters sit on their hands.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-brooks5may05,0,7007026.column?coll=la-home-headlines

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  2. Can not Padilla et.al. still sue the gov't for violating their civil rights?

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  3. Anonymous2:23 PM

    Ever get the feeling you've fallen down the rabbit hole and about to have tea with the Mad Hatter?

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  4. Anonymous4:18 PM

    It was our responsibility to find a solution for these poor bastards that entailed something other than sweating it out among a bunch of other poor bastards in the hell of Guantanamo Bay. Why couldn't they just relocate to Minnesota?

    But seriously Albania is actually a logical solution. An obscure, majority muslim nation on Europe's doorstep that probably would like to find itself in the EU within the next ten years.

    Honestly I would understand if it took them this long to work this kind of thing out. It's not like they have a deep bench of clever, creative foreign service officers...

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  5. It's kind of on topic, kind of off-topic, but when I see the Admin avoiding judicial review, I'm reminded of the assertion in one of the torture memos that because something is unreviewable, as a political question, it's therefore OK.

    Made me think that if Mr. Yoo or Mr. Addington were in the Mafia, they'd argue that if you completely dispose of all evidence of a murder -- body, witnesses, gun, etc -- then, well, it's OK to have done it. OK because no one can call you on it. And that's the touchstone of morality in their Hobbesian world: if you can get away with it, do it.

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  6. Anonymous5:30 PM

    Here's a great article relating to this topic from one of my own personal trifecta:

    l) Glenn Greenwald
    2) Paul Craig Roberts
    3) Justin Raimondo

    (Or, in Little Green Bart's corner, my favorite idiot, clown and ex-Trotskyite leftist. Thought I'd save them the time and get that up here first.)

    Watching the Constitution Fade Away

    Unless Bush is impeached and turned over to the war crimes court in the Hague, Americans will never reclaim their liberties from an Executive Branch that has established itself as the sole judge of the limits of its powers.

    This is way beyond censure or impeachment. Either the caravan gets stopped in Hague, or it moves on.

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  7. This sort of thing makes me so sick. Glenn's book covers this issue pretty well for Padilla and Hamdi. I wrote a post about one of the Uighur detainees here and his lawyer has a very moving article in the Washington Post from a couple weeks ago about another Uighur here

    The way these people have been treated even after they were found to be innocent is extremely shameful, and I mourn the possibility that they will never get their day in court.

    These people, as I discuss in my post, should have been let into the United states years ago. Who knows what will happen to them in Albania. Simply appalling.

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  8. Anonymous6:48 PM

    I agree with Disenchanted Dave. Why should another country, Albania, have to deal with a problem the Bush Administration created?

    To me, the only sensible solution was to offer the Uighurs U.S. citizenship. You mess these people up, it's your responsibility to try to undo the damage, not someone else's. Albania's likely not to feel much obligation towards these people, and it is a significantly poorer country, and hence, less capable of helping immigrants.

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  9. Anonymous8:05 PM

    Hi Glenn, Can this case still be heard? Would they have to come back from Albania? If the original laywers won't do it, can others? If the pseudo president says don't hear it, that's it? No hope, right?
    Nearing despair.
    Take care, Jan

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  10. Two of the Guantanamo detainees were determined long ago not to be enemy combatants, but the U.S. Government continued to hold them anyway, on the ground that they could not be returned to our good friend, China, because they would be tortured and killed there, but no other country would take them. As a result, the administration simply kept them in Guantanamo and fought their judicial efforts to be freed, even though they were guilty of nothing.

    This is misleading and incorrect.

    As with hundreds before them, the military hearing process required under the Geneva Conventions determined that these Uighur men were not enemy combatants.

    However, no one denies that sending these men back to their home country of China would result in their continued imprisonment, probable torture and maybe execution.

    What the Bush Administration was properly fighting was the release of these persons into the United States. We have no responsibility to take these men.

    You are being completely misleading when you state that these men did not have judicial review. They were reviewed and exonerated by the military hearings. Then their cases went up the federal court system all the way up to the Supreme Court and the courts supported the Administration's position.

    When the State Department finally found a country willing to take these men, their so called attorneys bitched about not having yet another day in court to prove their political points. This does not sound like these attorneys give a damn about their clients apart from using them as vehicles for their own political agendas.

    This administration has built up quite a track record of freeing people (or, in Jose Padilla's case, bringing unrelated charges) just in time to render their appeals moot, thereby preventing the courts from finding their conduct illegal or unconstitutional.

    Huh? I fail to see how the case of these Uighur men are at all analogous to US citizens Padilla and Hamdi.

    The Ulghar men are like dozens of other foreigners we are indefinitely detaining because they cannot be sent home for danger to their lives.

    As for US citizens who are found to be actual enemy combatants like Padilla and Hamdi, I personaly believe that they should be given trials with full constitutional rights in either a military or civilian court.

    US citizens have Constitutional rights, foreign enemy combatants have none.

    However, the Supreme Court disagreed with me and gave the Administration nearly all it asked for in the Hamdi case. US citizens like Hamdi and presumably Padilla only have the right to a hearing before a
    "neutral party" as to their status as enemy combatants. The government has relaxed rules of evidence and burden of proof at this hearing. In essence, the Supremes have merely reiterated what is required under the Geneva Conventions.

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  11. Anonymous10:12 PM

    Bart -

    There are times when you offer a coherent, even reasonable argument. And there are times when you present something so frankly incoherent as to be meaningless.

    You correction state:

    "As with hundreds before them, the military hearing process required under the Geneva Conventions determined that these Uighur men were not enemy combatants."

    Then go on to say:

    "When the State Department finally found a country willing to take these men, their so called attorneys bitched about not having yet another day in court to prove their political points. This does not sound like these attorneys give a damn about their clients apart from using them as vehicles for their own political agendas."

    I see. So, the fact these men were held incommunicato, 'tried' by a panel of questionable legality, and given no chance to seek legal redress before being shuttled off to yet another country not their own...this doesn't seem even remotely unethical or illegal to you, does it?

    You of course continue with:

    "As for US citizens who are found to be actual enemy combatants like Padilla and Hamdi, I personaly believe that they should be given trials with full constitutional rights in either a military or civilian court."

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but neither Padilla nor Hamdi have actually been determined to be 'enemy combatants' by any existing legal definition of the term, correct? In fact, it is only the Bush Administration's assertion they are such, one they have to date proven unwilling to test in Court.

    "US citizens have Constitutional rights, foreign enemy combatants have none."

    And here I thought you were raising a valid point about foreign nationals found NOT to be 'enemy combatants'. Nice dodge.

    Weasely, but nice dodge.

    So, exactly were you trying to argue here again?

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  12. yankeependragon said...

    I see. So, the fact these men were held incommunicato, 'tried' by a panel of questionable legality, and given no chance to seek legal redress before being shuttled off to yet another country not their own...this doesn't seem even remotely unethical or illegal to you, does it?

    These men were captured on a battlefield no their own country. They were given a hearing to determine their status as enemy combatants in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. I have no problem at all with this.

    Once these men were determined not to be illegal combatants by the hearing, we had two choices - send them to a gulag in China or keep them at Gitmo until we found them a third country.

    Would you prefer the Gulag?

    Bart: "As for US citizens who are found to be actual enemy combatants like Padilla and Hamdi, I personaly believe that they should be given trials with full constitutional rights in either a military or civilian court."

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but neither Padilla nor Hamdi have actually been determined to be 'enemy combatants' by any existing legal definition of the term, correct?


    To the best of my knowledge, you are wrong.

    Padilla was definitely found to be an enemy combatant and is now being tried on charges relates to his actions as a terrorist for al Qaeda.

    I believe that Hamdi was also given a hearing to determine why this American citizen of Saudi origin was captured on a Afghan battlefield. One guess how that happened.

    In fact, it is only the Bush Administration's assertion they are such, one they have to date proven unwilling to test in Court.

    They are testing this question in the Hamdan case.

    "US citizens have Constitutional rights, foreign enemy combatants have none."

    And here I thought you were raising a valid point about foreign nationals found NOT to be 'enemy combatants'. Nice dodge.


    Why would you assume that when I had shifted the subject to the two US citizens who were held as enemy combatants. As you well know if you can read English, I was distinguishing the rights of an Americans citizen under the Constitution, which foreign enemy combatants to not share.

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  13. hilzoy said...

    Bart: "You are being completely misleading when you state that these men did not have judicial review. They were reviewed and exonerated by the military hearings. Then their cases went up the federal court system all the way up to the Supreme Court and the courts supported the Administration's position."

    This is pretty seriously misleading itself. The case was heard in district court, and the judge pronounced their detention illegal, but said that he could not do anything about it. (He couldn't order them released into the military base at Guantanamo, or into Cuba, or into the US, since immigration is within the purview of the executive.) I posted the decision here.)


    No kidding. The administration doesn't claim the right to hold them as enemy combatants. They simply had no place to ship them which was safe. The alternative to this illegal detention was shipment to a Chinese gulag.

    The government also fought them in other ways. When the two were found not to be enemy combatants by the tribunal at Guantanamo, despite not having access to counsel or the evidence against them, the government did not inform either their lawyers (who had not met with them at that point) or the judge.

    So what?

    These prisoners have no right to civilian counsel under a military tribunal. These civilian counsel are self appointed. The military owes them nothing.

    Unless the judge orders the military to turn over information concerning the military proceedings and that order is upheld on appeal or conceded by the military, the military owes the judge nothing. This is not a trial before this judge. The judge is intervening in a military jurisdiction based on a habeus motion.

    The effect of freeing them is precisely to avoid judicial review. There is nothing misleading about this: the hearing was scheduled for Monday morning, and now they're arguing that the case is moot. I'm glad that they're free, but I don't think very highly of this strategy of mooting each case just when it gets to the point at which the issues will be decided.

    I will grant you this point with Padilla. The government won a great decision at the 4th Circuit level, but risked a reversal at the Supreme Court level because Padilla was captured in the United States rather on a foreign battlefield like Hamdi. The Supremes seemed to place a great deal of importance on where the enemy combatant was captured in the Hamdi case. The Government probably figured that they obtained all the intelligence they could from Padilla and had the evidence to convict him in a civilian court so they punted. There are no other US al Qaeda in the pipeline now so nothing is lost in their view.

    In Hamdi, the government got all they could reasonably hope from the Supreme Court. The issues in that case were completely litigated and the Supremes ruled for the government on almost all points. The next step was a hearing to determine Hamdi's combatant status. The government decided to send Hamdi back to the country of his origin, Saudi Arabia, as they have done with hundreds of other detainees after interrogation. Hamdi wasn't on vacation in Afghanistan, but the military figured he wasn't worth holding. Only a small fraction of captured persons have been kept at Gitmo.

    As to this: "We have no responsibility to take these men." We have no legal responsibility to take them. But I think we have a moral responsibility.

    Not a chance.

    Just because we could not prove them to be enemy combatants does not mean that they are in fact not such. We have released others for lack of evidence and then found them fighting again in Afghanistan. This is the reason almost no other countries will take them or will imprison them if they do. I will be damned if we release these possible terrorists into our country to disappear.

    We have no moral responsibility to do anything but hold them in protective custody until they can be released to a third country.

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  14. Anonymous2:45 AM

    bart: "Once these men were determined not to be illegal combatants by the hearing, we had two choices - send them to a gulag in China or keep them at Gitmo until we found them a third country. Would you prefer the Gulag?"

    This is known as a false dichotomy, and is a logical fallacy. Bart is very fond of logical fallacies. He uses 'em alot. In this case, we had more than the above two choices Bart describes. For example, just off the top of my head, we also had the choice to allow these innocent men to become American citizens. We also had the choice to simply allow these men to live on American soil, perhaps under constant monitoring, while we found another nation to accept them. These may not be choices Bart would prefer, but they *are* choices that existed outside of the two Bart insists were exclusively available. Hence, Bart's false dichotomy logical fallacy.

    "Padilla was definitely found to be an enemy combatant and is now being tried on charges relates to his actions as a terrorist for al Qaeda."

    Now Bart's switching from a logical fallacy to a baldfaced lie. Padilla has *not* been "found" to be an enemy combatant. He has been *accused* of being an enemy combatant by the Bush Administration. But he has a constitutional right as an American citizen to a trial in front of a jury of his peers. Until such a trial happens (and it has not yet), Padilla can not be "found" to be anything.

    Shame on you, bart.

    Patrick Meighan
    Venice, CA

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  15. Anonymous2:54 AM

    Bart: These men were captured on a battlefield no their own country.

    This is not accurate. Current and former detainees were found in jails, or backpacking, or as hilzoy points out, turned in by others through a bounty system.

    Bart: Once these men were determined not to be illegal combatants by the hearing, we had two choices -

    This is also not accurate. You conflate what you determine to be these men's rights with what the alternatives are/were for the administration.

    Bart: Just because we could not prove them to be enemy combatants does not mean that they are in fact not such. We have released others for lack of evidence and then found them fighting again in Afghanistan.

    Let's break this down into two parts. You seem to be applying a criminal law standard to the determination of these men's status. To my understanding, these were not criminal proceedings. By applying this standard, you make it virtually impossible for anyone to ever truly, finally be declared not to be an enemy combatant.

    Second, I can find only one reference to your claim about anyone being released from Gitmo and then returning to Afganistan. It was a speculation made by Rumsfeld about one person.

    I honestly don't know why I bother, but I just couldn't allow your response to both yankeependragon and hilzoy be the last comment on this thread.

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  16. Anonymous7:54 AM

    Bart: Just because we could not prove them to be enemy combatants does not mean that they are in fact not such. We have released others for lack of evidence and then found them fighting again in Afghanistan.
    Bart is morally bankrupt. Just because we can't prove that he's literally wiped his stinking butt with the Constitution does not mean that he hasn't in fact done so.

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  17. Anonymous8:46 AM

    bart writes:

    "To the best of my knowledge, you are wrong.

    Padilla was definitely found to be an enemy combatant and is now being tried on charges relates to his actions as a terrorist for al Qaeda."

    First of all, what does this first sentence mean Bart? You are getting your information exclusively from the press as almost all of us are, right?

    You do not work for government, you have said.

    So what does this mean "to the best of your knowledge?"

    I am not following. You follow the news more closely than almost anyone and seem to have access to a staggering wealth of information about law, news, etc.,relating to both past events and present.

    "Padilla was definitely found to be an enemy combatant"

    Is this statement false or accurate? Others here have stated it is false.

    So you tell me. Who found Padilla to be an enemy combatant? A person? What was that person's name?

    A court? Which court and could you cite the language in the ruling?

    You not only said he was found to be an enemy combatant, you said "definitely" meaning you were certain of that. Implying had verified it and maybe re-checked that when others said previously and also in earlier days he had not.

    What was the exact source of your information that Padillo was "definitely" found to be an enemy combatant? I think it's very important for you to clarify why you made that exact statement.

    Thanks.

    PS. I personally think your last few posts have been extraordinarily revealing about something. Tell you more about that after you answer my questions above if you get time.

    Meanwhile, back to some of my psychology textbooks. I just detected something else about your mind. Something entirely new.

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  18. Anonymous9:11 AM

    It seems to me that when persons are kidnapped and turned over to us for a bounty payment because we're offering bounties for "enemy combatants," and when we detain said persons for years under reportedly abusive conditions, that, when we unilaterally decide those persons are NOT "enemy combatants" that we should free them post-haste. IF there is truly a danger they may be imprisoned or tortured or even killed if we release them to their own countries, then WE ABSOLUTELY DO HAVE A FUCKING MORAL OBLIGATION TO ALLOW THEM TO BECOME RESIDENTS OF AMERICA, AS WELL AS OFFERING TO BRING THEIR FAMILIES OVER HERE TO JOIN THEM, IF THEY WISH.

    Bart's like one of those "officers of the court" who says, when we find that a prisoner who has been held for years in one of our hellish American prisons is, in fact, innocent, "Well, we're still confident the system worked and the conviction was sound, harumph, blah blah yadda yadda, etc."

    In short, members of our legal system become mere cogs in the machine, "androids," as Philip K. Dick terms them, humans who behave not through a sense of empathy or understanding of the HUMAN circumstances of the people they encounter, but strictly in a reflexive, mechanical manner. There's no recognition that the legal system is fundamentally an attempt to serve the cause of justice. Justice is not a mere ledger book of charges filed, sentences rendered, judgements meted out, but is, or should be, a search for truth, and a rendering of judgement proportional to the facts, if judgement is called for. If a convict is found belatedly to be innocent, or even if the certainty of his guilt is impeached--"just because they're not found to be enemy combatants doesn't mean they're not" as Bart so aptly encapsulates the thinking of these inhuman court officers--we, as a society, OWE THAT PERSON COMPENSATION.

    Some would say, "we can't compensate every person who is found to have been wrongly convicted for a crime, as long as the system worked in good faith and the evidence at the time served to convince the jury of the defendant's guilt."

    Why not? If we, as a society, have deprived a person of freedom, of employment, of material goods and often of family, through an error of our judicial system, then we, as a society, are obliged, upon discovering the error, to endeavor to make that person as whole as is possible.

    Oh, maybe we have no "legal" obligation, but, but we sure do have a moral obligation.

    And we have a moral obligation to the men whose lives we have raped in our wanton actions in our so-called "war on terror."

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  19. Anonymous9:21 AM

    And, no, Padilla has not been legally adjudged to be an "enemy combatant." Why else was he moved from military detention and to the civil court system, with vastly reduced charges filed than were originally alleged against him? Because the Bush criminal conspirators feared the Supreme Court would find for Padilla and against the administration. There was never any legal finding as to Padilla's actual status, or of his guilt of any act.

    In fact, has ANYONE been LEGALLY found to be "enemy combatants?" I don't see how, as none of them have faced charges or had verdicts handed down to them. (I don't refer to individuals such as the American youth captured in Afghnanistan and who pled guilty, but to those we have detained en masse at Guantanamo and elsewhere.)

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  20. Anonymous9:42 AM

    OT:

    Bart, could you answer two questions for me please?

    l) Has anyone on this forum ever changed in any significant way the way you perceive any of the issues which have been discussed here?

    2) Of all who write on this blog (including Glenn) if the answer to that first question is yes, whose views do you tend to most identify with (aside from shooter?)

    Thanks.

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  21. Anonymous9:49 AM

    Bart -

    Here's an even simpler question for you:

    Exactly which Court concluded, with which ruling, that Padilla and Hamdi were 'enemy combatants'?

    I'm quite serious in asking this, as I was speaking from my understanding of the cases to date. If there has been an actual ruling to this effect, please name it.

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  22. Anonymous12:16 PM

    What happened to the legal concept of "capable of repetition, yet evading review" where a court would resolve a case even though it might be moot? See, ie, this Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mootness#Capable_of_repetition.2C_yet_evading_review

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  23. Anonymous12:19 PM

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mootness#Capable_of_repetition.2C_yet_evading_review

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  24. Patrick Meighan said...

    bart: "Once these men were determined not to be illegal combatants by the hearing, we had two choices - send them to a gulag in China or keep them at Gitmo until we found them a third country. Would you prefer the Gulag?"

    This is known as a false dichotomy, and is a logical fallacy. Bart is very fond of logical fallacies. He uses 'em alot. In this case, we had more than the above two choices Bart describes. For example, just off the top of my head, we also had the choice to allow these innocent men to become American citizens. We also had the choice to simply allow these men to live on American soil, perhaps under constant monitoring, while we found another nation to accept them. These may not be choices Bart would prefer, but they *are* choices that existed outside of the two Bart insists were exclusively available. Hence, Bart's false dichotomy logical fallacy.


    Is this really a legal option? The trial court did not think so. I believe the lower court's opinion was that he could not force the immigration of these men.

    Under what provision of our immigration statutes are these men entitled to enter the United States? Because they did not reach the territory of the United States, they are not even entitled to a hearing by the INS.

    Bart: "Padilla was definitely found to be an enemy combatant and is now being tried on charges relates to his actions as a terrorist for al Qaeda."

    Now Bart's switching from a logical fallacy to a baldfaced lie. Padilla has *not* been "found" to be an enemy combatant. He has been *accused* of being an enemy combatant by the Bush Administration. But he has a constitutional right as an American citizen to a trial in front of a jury of his peers. Until such a trial happens (and it has not yet), Padilla can not be "found" to be anything.


    My friend, I posted several times on this site that I believe that US citizens acting as enemy combatants should be tried and not indefinitely held.

    However, that desired resolution does not mean that Padilla was not found to be an enemy combatant before his trial by the hearing to which he is entitled under the Geneva Conventions.

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  25. daphne said...

    Bart: These men were captured on a battlefield no their own country.

    This is not accurate. Current and former detainees were found in jails, or backpacking, or as hilzoy points out, turned in by others through a bounty system.


    Which part of "these men" did you not understand? If you want to address the facts of other cases, present them.

    Bart: Once these men were determined not to be illegal combatants by the hearing, we had two choices -

    This is also not accurate. You conflate what you determine to be these men's rights with what the alternatives are/were for the administration.


    People captured in a war have the right to a hearing to determine their status under the Geneva Conventions. If they are found to be civilians, they are supposed to be returned. However, we have this strange idea about not sending civilians to where they will be imprisoned in Gulags.

    Bart: Just because we could not prove them to be enemy combatants does not mean that they are in fact not such. We have released others for lack of evidence and then found them fighting again in Afghanistan.

    Let's break this down into two parts. You seem to be applying a criminal law standard to the determination of these men's status. To my understanding, these were not criminal proceedings. By applying this standard, you make it virtually impossible for anyone to ever truly, finally be declared not to be an enemy combatant.


    If by the "criminal standard" you mean beyond a reasonable doubt, I am saying no such thing. The Geneva Conventions do not guarantee detainees a criminal trial, only a hearing.

    Second, I can find only one reference to your claim about anyone being released from Gitmo and then returning to Afganistan. It was a speculation made by Rumsfeld about one person.

    AP reported on at least seven Gitmo releasees who have been identified by the military in Afghanistan as combatants.

    http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2004/10/18/7_ex_detainees_return_to_fighting?mode=PF

    The WP reported on 10 releasees...

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52670-2004Oct21.html

    I will be damned it I will support bypassing our immigration laws to put these Chinese releasees into the United States.

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  26. Eyes WIde Open said...

    Bart, could you answer two questions for me please?

    l) Has anyone on this forum ever changed in any significant way the way you perceive any of the issues which have been discussed here?


    Yes.

    Some poster here educated me concerning the Scalia dissent in Hamdi.

    Others have directed me to law which I had not considered.

    I also learn the arguments percolating in the leftist blogosphere before they become talking points by the Donkey politicians.

    2) Of all who write on this blog (including Glenn) if the answer to that first question is yes, whose views do you tend to most identify with (aside from shooter?)

    Hmmm...

    Realize that I post answers to the blogs by Glenn that interest me and then attempt to answer the replies sent my way, usually by searching for mentions of my name. I do not read everything posted here, so I may be missing a number of very goods posts with which I agree.

    I have agreed with the drug decriminalization and the free immigration views here.

    JAO is one that comes to mind who actually makes a good faith effort to looks to see what the facts and law are on some of the issues we debate here. He an I have agreed on occasion. Sorry, JAO...

    However, I am not sure that there is another libertarian hawk who posts here whose views would largely match mine.

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  27. yankeependragon said...

    Bart - Here's an even simpler question for you:

    Exactly which Court concluded, with which ruling, that Padilla and Hamdi were 'enemy combatants'?


    None of which I am aware. The Geneva Conventions do not require a court ruling on the status of captured persons. A simple military hearing is sufficient.

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  28. JAO:

    Even after the Hamdi decision in 2004, which you admit was narrowly limited to the context of a combatant captured on a foreign battlefield

    No, I don't think you can read the case that narrowly. However, a number of justices in a very splintered ruling seemed to place a great deal of importance on the fact that Hamdi was captured on a foreign battlefield and could obviously not be accorded normal civilian criminal due process. This argument would be absent in a ruling on Padilla.

    This shell game drew a stinging rebuke from Judge Michael Luttig of the 4th Circuit, a distinguished conservative jurist known to be on Bush's short list last year for a Supreme Court nomination.

    Luttig wrote the very favorable ruling in favor of detaining Padilla as an enemy combatant and was very likely insulted that the government appeared to have doubts that that ruling would survive Supreme Court scrutiny. Luttig hardly supports your position.

    bart: In Hamdi, the government got all they could reasonably hope from the Supreme Court. The issues in that case were completely litigated and the Supremes ruled for the government on almost all points.

    LMAO. Hamdi was a strategic defeat for the Bush administration.

    The government lost 8-1 on the constitutional separation-of-powers issue, in which the justices emphatically rejected the Bush administration claim that the executive branch had exclusive authority in such a matter -- even a matter such as battlefield detention deemed to be obviously "incident" to war.


    Judicial review is the only issue on which the government lost.

    The Supremes used that review which they reserved to rule that the government could hold a detainee indefinitely after a simple hearing where the rules of evidence were relaxed to the point that the government could provide hearsay and keep the secret sources of material classified from the detainee. This is a slam dunk for the government.

    This part of the Hamdi decision drew the now-famous warning from the plurality opinion: "We have long since made clear that a state of war is not a blank check for the President when it comes to the rights of the Nation’s citizens. ... Whatever power the United States Constitution envisions for the Executive in its exchanges with other nations or with enemy organizations in times of conflict, it most assuredly envisions a role for all three branches when individual liberties are at stake."

    That is rhetoric, not a ruling. The government won on all substantive issues.

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  29. Anonymous3:11 PM

    From Bart at 12:46PM:

    "None of which I am aware. The Geneva Conventions do not require a court ruling on the status of captured persons. A simple military hearing is sufficient."

    Thank you for clearing that up.

    And now that we've established that a 'military hearing is sufficient' to determine if an American citizen or foreign national is or isn't an 'enemy combatant', I have just one more question:

    You really, honestly haven't given any of the implications - the potentials for abuse, the lack of legal standards, the lack of clearly defined jurisdictions between civilian and military authority - of this the slightest thought, have you?

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  30. Anonymous4:42 PM

    bart: "I will be damned it I will support bypassing our immigration laws to put these Chinese releasees into the United States."

    Again, that's you saying that you'd prefer the U.S. not exercise an option... which is different from implying that an option does not exist (which you did when you said: "Once these men were determined not to be illegal combatants by the hearing, we had two choices - send them to a gulag in China or keep them at Gitmo until we found them a third country"). The U.S. government very clearly had at least one other option besides the two you enumerated: extend these men political asylum... even if we had to transport them to U.S. soil in order to do so. Hence, your false dichotomy, bart: a cheap and clear logical fallacy.

    Don't be sad. It's not your first here, and I have a feeling it won't be your last. And, while I admit it'd be more fun to read the comments of a hawkish lbertarian who had the mental capacity to refrain from such logical boners, they appear to be in short supply. So I guess I gotta take what I can get.

    bart: "My friend, I posted several times on this site that I believe that US citizens acting as enemy combatants should be tried and not indefinitely held."

    Oh, awesome. How totally principled of you. So, um, what kind of citizen *action* have you taken in defense of that deeply held principle of yours? Called your congressperson? Your Senator? Wrote some letters to the editor? Attended some protests. Voted against any and all candidates who disagree with you on such a vital matter?

    I just wanna know where to look for you out there on the barricades. My friend.

    Patrick Meighan
    Venice, CA

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  31. Anonymous4:53 PM

    Bart:
    daphne said...

    Bart: These men were captured on a battlefield no their own country.

    This is not accurate. Current and former detainees were found in jails, or backpacking, or as hilzoy points out, turned in by others through a bounty system.

    Which part of "these men" did you not understand? If you want to address the facts of other cases, present them.

    Please try to keep up. I quoted you from your response to yankeependragon where both of you referenced the Uyghur men who are the subject of this post. To my knowledge, at least two of them were NOT captured on the battlefield, but were captured by bounty hunters in Pakistan.

    Second, hilzoy has made the immigration issue clear enough for most readers, but it wouldn't surprise me if you come back with more arguments.

    Third, Bart: If by the "criminal standard" you mean beyond a reasonable doubt, I am saying no such thing. The Geneva Conventions do not guarantee detainees a criminal trial, only a hearing.

    No, Bart. I was refering to the idea that in criminal cases defendants are found to be not guilty as opposed to innocent. That was the point I believe you were trying to make.

    Finally, until you learn how to do this, I'm seriously not going to bother with your poor attempts to refernce your points.

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