Friday, May 19, 2006

Gen. Hayden admits the Administration knew it was violating FISA

In his confirmation hearing yesterday, Gen. Hayden yesterday all but acknowledged that when President Bush ordered the NSA to engage in warrantless eavesdropping on Americans, the administration did not, at that time, rely upon any purported claim that Congress had authorized the President to engage in warrantless eavesdropping via its authorization to use military force against Al Qaeda. That legal theory justifying violations of FISA only came much later. The sole justification the administration had when the President ordered warrantless eavesdropping was its claim that the president has "inherent authority" to violate the law.

Thus, when President Bush ordered warrantless eavesdropping, the administration did not believe that this eavesdropping was authorized by Congress as a result of the AUMF, nor did it believe that the eavesdropping was consistent with FISA. To the contrary, it knew that the eavesdropping it had ordered was criminally prohibited by FISA, and the sole legal justification it relied upon was its belief that the President had the power to order eavesdropping in violation of that law:

At the same time, however, he acknowledged under questioning from Democrats that he did not read the Justice Department's formal opinion laying out the legal rationale for the program. He also said he did not recall any substantive discussion about the Congressional authorization in September 2001 to use all necessary force against Al Qaeda — a resolution that the White House now says helped give it legal authority for the wiretapping operation. "Our discussion anchored itself on Article II," he said.

What this "Article II" claim really amounts to, of course, is a simple claim that the President had the right to order warrantless eavesdropping on Americans even though FISA makes it a criminal offense to do so. That is because, under this "Article II" theory, not just FISA, but any law, which purports to limit what the President can do with regard to anything relating to national security is, by definition, unconstitutional, because nothing and nobody can limit what the President can do in that area, even as it applies to measures taken against U.S. citizens on U.S. soil.

The administration's Article II theory is not specific to surveillance, since nothing in Article II mentions or refers to surveillance. It is nothing more than a re-statement of the defining theory of the Yoo Memorandum -- that the President has sole responsibility for defense of the nation and therefore nothing, including the law, can interfere with anything he chooses to do. He is omnipotent in that area.

That this vision of the all-powerful Presidency is squarely at odds with virtually every founding principle of our country is something that has been discussed many times here, and is a major subject of my book. But one aspect of the administration's decision to violate FISA that has received relatively little attention is just how extraordinary is the sudden claim that FISA, after governing eavesdropping in this country for 27 years, is unconstitutional.

It's not uncommon for a law to be passed and signed into law under a cloud of questionable constitutionality. Since McCain-Feingold was enacted, for instance, scores of people have claimed that McCain-Feingold entails unconstitutional abridgements of First Amendment liberties and litigation began almost immediately after it was signed into law. Indeed, on the very day the Senate approved it, many Senators expressed their view that the law was unconstitutional. That happens commonly with laws which are believed to be unconstitutional -- substantial public debate exists among politicians, law professors, lawyers, and others regarding the law's questionable constitutionality.

But nothing like that ever happened with FISA. It was enacted in 1978 by a vote of 95-1 in the Senate. It was amended six times since then, including under the Bush presidency. President Bush asked for amendments liberalizing its provisions, and never once suggested it was unconstitutional. Four different presidential administrations prior to this one -- two Republican and two Democratic -- complied with its provisions while engaging in surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes, including during the height of our Cold War with the Soviet Union, and during all sorts of military actions, including the Persian Gulf War and military deployments in Latin America, Yugoslavia, and throughout the Middle East.

Until George Bush, no President had ever claimed that the requirements of FISA were unconstitutional. None ever claimed that their Article II powers were infringed because they had to obtain judicial warrants before eavesdropping on Americans, and none ever claimed that their ability to engage in intelligence gathering was impeded in any way by the warrant requirements of that law. There was never any debate in any prominent academic circles or among political pundits over the constitutionality of FISA. The Reagan Administration was filled with ideologues and advocates of strong executive power and yet, as it went to the FISA court every time it wanted to eavesdrop on Americans, it never once claimed that FISA was unconstitutional in any way. Nobody of any prominence did, because its constitutionality was never in doubt.

This notion that FISA is unconstitutional never emerged until the Bush administration wanted to eavesdrop on Americans with no oversight. And it was not publicly articulated until George Bush got caught violating that law and needed a defense. Criminal defendants frequently claim that the law they are accused of violating is unconstitutional. That is a common tactic among people who get caught breaking the law.

That the AUMF defense did not even exist when the President ordered warrantless eavesdropping on Americans is extremely significant because it means that the administration did not even purport to beleive that the eavesdropping they were ordering was consistent with any statute. They knew that FISA criminalized that eavesdropping, and the sole justification for engaging in it was that President Bush could order the law violated because he has that power, and FISA is invalid to the extent it regulates that power. But the circumstances under which this claim arose, by itself, demonstrate how frivolous this theory is.

FISA was passed overwhelmingly and has governed eavesdropping in our country for almost 30 years, with no suggestion that it is unconstitutional and with president after president complying with its mandates and never challenging them. That long-standing consensus does not dispositively prove that the law is constitutional, but the fact that nobody claimed that FISA was unconstitutional until it was revealed that President Bush has been violating that law, is rather compelling evidence of just how weak and pretextual that claim is.

183 comments:

  1. Anonymous11:08 AM

    I asked this a day or so ago, but I'll ask it again:

    Is it wrong to actually feel pity for the President at this point?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Anonymous11:17 AM

    Sorry for choosing another topic, but this just blew my mind.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Anonymous11:21 AM

    I was also struck by the sudden reappearance of the claim that the administration couldn't ask for FISA to be amended, not because they didn't believe Congress would do it, but because any discussion of what they believed needed to be changed would give away too much information to the evil terrorists.

    It wasn't convincing the first time this argument surfaced, and it isn't convincing now; and for all that some intelligence activities and information are classified for legitimate reasons, it's still disturbing that so many of the important questions raised in that hearing were obviously only going to be addressed in closed session, where we will never know whether they were explored adequately or not.

    ReplyDelete
  4. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Anonymous11:30 AM

    To "The Hidden Imam":
    Assuming that it is true that Iran may require that Jews, Christians, and Zorostrians wear identifying "badges", and I have no reason to doubt its veracity, what is your point? As horrendous as that would be, and as reminiscent of the Holocaust that it obviously is, what do you suggest? That we use this as a justification to "nuke" them? That we must therefore invade Iran to put a stop to this? Tell us, please. I think that the United States should protest this action in as strong a way as possible --- in the UN and in the court of public opinion. Other than that, it seems to me to be an internal matter for Iran and Iranians to deal with, and as long as no genocide is taking place as a result, there's really not much else that we can or should do.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Anonymous11:35 AM

    Hidden Imam--this thread is probably not best used for that discussion. It's even possible that the report may be entirely false. I recall Iraqi expatriates also had many tall tales.

    Glenn, a tiny nit to pick. I've heard (since long before any of the current mess) many people (I guess they are insufficiently prominent?) question FISA's constitutionality. However, the complaint was on grounds it is too permissive of executive power. I'm not sure I've seen a serious legal analysis from that angle--perhaps (IANAL) because it's legally untenable?--but it seems not quite fair to say nobody has questioned it.

    ReplyDelete
  7. If someone believes a law to be unconstitutional, doesn't the law still have to be followed unless and until it's constitutionality is determined (or an injunction issued)?

    No - if you violate a law and are criminally charged with doing so, you can claim as part of your defense that the law is unconstitutional. If you're right, you cannot be held criminally liable, because unconstitutional laws are, by definition, invalid.

    Administration apologists would probably argue that Article II supercedes legislative authority when the country is "at war," and that's why FISA wasn't challenged until now. Does that claim have any merit?

    Their argument doesn't depend on whether we are "at war." They claim that the president's power to defend the nation is unlimited regardless of whether we are at "war." And their argument can't depend on being at war, both because we have the same constitution during peace that we have during a time of war, and because they have actually taken the position that, legally at least, Congress has never declared "war."

    Finally, we have been at war many other times since FISA was enacted - we fought the Persian Gulf War; a war in Yugoslavia; military actions in Grenada, Iraq, and Somalia; and we had involvement in all sorts of military conflict around the world. And, of course, we waged war against the "Evil Empire" which had hundreds of intercontinental nuclear missiles aimed at each of our cities.

    Each administration which fought each of those wars complied with FISA and never claimed that its requirements were unconstitutional. Nor did they claim there were incapable of defending the nation unless they violated that law. Only George Bush makes those claims.

    ReplyDelete
  8. hiddenimam: Sorry for choosing another topic, but this just blew my mind. BTW bart also linked to this bogus story last night.

    No need to worry. The story is false, according to one mideast expert:

    Independent reporter Meir Javdanfar, an Israeli Middle East expert who was born and raised in Tehran, says the report is false.

    "It's absolutely factually incorrect," he told The New 940 Montreal.

    "Nowhere in the law is there any talk of Jews and Christians having to wear different colours. I've checked it with sources both inside Iran and outside."

    "The Iranian people would never stand for it. The Iranian government wouldn't be stupid enough to do it."
    Political commentator and 940 Montreal host Beryl Waysman says the report is true, that the law was passed two years ago.

    ReplyDelete
  9. As you review these astounding arguments yet again we all stand by in stunned wonder of when America's light bulb will come on. To expand the core of the issue, not the arguments, I saw a History Channel special last night about Echelon. It had been updated, had Heyden on it. What struck me was the level of cooperation it asserted that exists between NSA, Brits & Canadians in their electronic collection. This cooperation extended to provide "Cover and deniability" for each other, ie, AL's idea that perhaps on the newest revelation of mass collection, there could be a Middle Man between ATT&T say and the US Govt. Regardless of my admittedly tin foil hat adventure here, the point I'm making is that Congressional oversight has not captured & contained the bird, the bird is still in flight - Bush's power is growing every day unchecked.

    ReplyDelete
  10. I've heard (since long before any of the current mess) many people (I guess they are insufficiently prominent?) question FISA's constitutionality. However, the complaint was on grounds it is too permissive of executive power.

    That's certainly true. I meant that nobody argued that FISA was unconstitutitional because it impermissibly restricted the Government's ability to eavesdrop.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Anonymous11:46 AM

    Shouldn't surprise anyone -- this administration knew they were breaking the laws when they stole the 2000 election and then created 911.

    Scholars for 9/11 Truth - http://st911.org/

    The theft of the 2000 election and the fake "terrorist" attack were what allowed this administration's entire agenda.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Anonymous11:47 AM

    As horrendous as that would be, and as reminiscent of the Holocaust that it obviously is, what do you suggest? That we use this as a justification to "nuke" them? That we must therefore invade Iran to put a stop to this? Tell us, please.

    I agree with you that for now, a huge protest, in the U.N. and everywhere, is the appropriate response.

    I think the significance of this is more symbolic than anything else. There is a growing consensus that Iran is potentially the next Nazi Germany, and that we need to vigilantly monitor the situation, and if necessary at some point, take the appropriate steps. I think Iran's decision to force Jews to wear yellow badges will only confirm this understanding.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Anonymous11:51 AM

    Hayden trotted out the (discredited long ago) story about How Wiretaps Would Have Caught the Hijackers.

    This maladminstration is obsessed with demonstrating that it has the biggest cojones in the Local Group of galaxies, and is pathologically obsessed with secrecy and knowing what everyone else is doing.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Meanwhile, Justice TS Ellis, a district court judge in Virginia has dismissed the case of German citizen Khaled al-Masri against George Tenet and the CIA. Al-Masri alleges that he was kidnapped in Macedonia in 2003 and flown to Kabul Afghanistan, where he was tortured.
    "The judge did not rule on the truth of the allegations, but said letting the case proceed might endanger security.
    Rights group the American Civil Liberties Union brought the case on behalf of Mr. el-Masri - who was never charged with any terrorist offences."

    As we keep seeing in these cases there was no useful information obtained by these heinous methods, and any chance of legally dealing with el-Masri if he was a terrorist was negated by the torture.

    The rest, from Raw Story:

    Judge Dismisses Torture Suit

    Why is it that the magic words 'national security' always seem to trump the Constitution and Bill of Rights in America? I thought the Constitution was the supreme law of the land. I guess it's like the musical group The Supremes after Diana Ross left. They were kinda The Supremes, but not really.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Glenn:
    About a week or so ago, I was feeling a little confused about what this Article II justification was all about because I sure couldn't see anything in the actual wording of the constitution about it. I even went so far as to look up some the cases that bart cites incessantly to see what the heck he was going on about.

    In a future post, I would love if you were to lay out where this "unitary executive" theory came from and why it's full of it. So far you've relied on the fact that every move the administartion has made has been to prevent any ruling on this question see the light of day. I'd be interested to know what arguments you'd use if you were actually involved in litigation.

    Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Hey glenn,

    I hope you cross-post this a few places where moderate (read: non-political news junkies) can read it. The level of analysis in the news media is a joke at this point, Bush is using this immigration issue to cover up what's going on in these Hayden hearings.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Anonymous12:29 PM

    First, to answer the question: "Is it wrong to actually feel pity for the President at this point?"

    No, it's not wrong...it shows you are truly "Christian" in your capacity for empathy even for the undesirables of society, (whether you are actually a Christian or not).

    I am not a Christian, although raised one...I am an atheist. Nontheless, I try to understand what motivates people to act in unacceptable ways, and I try to have empathy even for people who cannot be excused. However, I do not feel the slightest bit of pity for Li'l Butch or Cheney or the rest of this criminal cabal...they are absolutely ruthless in their pursuit of power, in their corruption, in their demonstrable willingness to lie and to violate their oaths of office...there is no human component to their actions, no sign that they have the slightest concern for we, the people, or for anything other than aggrandizing their own power and spreading American control over the globe.

    That said, I have little regard for the Democrats either...as far as I can see, virtually the entire power establishment is corrupt beyond remedy, with most of the members being utter mediocrities willing to sell out their constitutents for the sake of advancing their pathetic little "careers." Those in Washington who are not there to enrich themselves are there to assuage their pinched little egos, like the dull grinds in high school who excelled academically not as a result of their having fine minds or love for learning, but merely in order that they could claim social standing in the school pecking order.

    A pox on them all. With one or two exceptions.

    I'm convinced this century will see a combination of disasters--both natural and human in origin--which will destroy huge swaths of the civilized world. I don't mean to sound apocalyptic, but the inevitable conclusion to a corporate-owned world will, I believe, come to pass.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Anonymous12:51 PM

    Robert1014: I'm with you when you said A pox on them all. With one or two exceptions.

    To steal a joke I got from Willie Nelson, what do a politician and a sperm have in common? They both have a one-in-a-million chance of becoming human beings.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Anonymous12:52 PM

    The sheer lack of outrage over this is in itself outrageous. Essentially, this means the president, during a perceived time of war, can do anything to anyone without even disclosing he has done it. Under state secrets, it may never be revealed.

    What will it take to impeach this character?

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anonymous12:54 PM

    Hidden Imam said (at 11:47 am);
    "There is a growing consensus that Iran is potentially the next Nazi Germany"

    Putting aside the obviously hyperbolic nature of your post; How can a consensus be growing? Consensus is defined as unanimous agreement. By my way of thinking, it can only grow if the population in question grows. Are new Americans now being born in agreement with this opinion?

    ReplyDelete
  21. Anonymous12:55 PM

    Glenn Greenwald: No - if you violate a law and are criminally charged with doing so, you can claim as part of your defense that the law is unconstitutional. If you're right, you cannot be held criminally liable, because unconstitutional laws are, by definition, invalid.

    In all of the land there is no federal prosecutor willing to stake his career on putting this to a test? Even accepting that the Supreme Court would ultimately side with Bush, shouldn't his (and any subsequent presidents') absolute power be challenged at once so that citizens will at least understand that democracy has been lost?

    ReplyDelete
  22. Anonymous12:55 PM

    Phd9 says...

    Glenn has all ready given a comprehensive argument--including the Article II theory--against the Bush administration's legal defense of the NSA program under question. It can be found at the address below:

    http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/02/nsa-legal-arguments.html

    There is also a link to it on his homepage, on the lefthand side.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Glenn:

    It seems to me that you are in effect arguing that the Administration's claim that FISA is unconstitutional is barred by laches, and perhaps estoppel. Has that kind of argument ever been used to save an otherwise unconstitutional statute?

    (I agree with you completely on the substance, and think the Administration's monarchist theories are absurd. And in this case I don't think there is any question that FISA is in fact constitutional. I'm just not sure this argument works from a legal standpoint.)

    ReplyDelete
  24. anonymous sez:

    What will it take to impeach this character?

    A million pitchforks and buckets of tar and feathers, methinks. Now, wouldn't that be a cathartic sight?

    Let's organize the "Million Pitchforks" march.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  25. Anonymous1:00 PM

    The Hidden Imam said:

    There is a growing consensus that Iran is potentially the next Nazi Germany

    That kind of unattributed assertion is pernicious. Who exactly has said this -- can you name names?

    There is no such growing consensus, outside the hermetically sealed world of the US media, the same media that made the idea that Iraq was a threat the United States seem reasonable to the US population, while the rest of the world looked on in disbelief.

    It's astonishing the number of Americans who were against the Iraq war, simply because they lived in Canada during the build-up, and saw more objective media coverage of the "threat". Not to mention those who lived further away.

    If you want to believe that Iran is the next Nazi Germany, go ahead, but don't expect anyone to take anything you say seriously afterwards.

    ReplyDelete
  26. bluememe:

    It seems to me that you are in effect arguing that the Administration's claim that FISA is unconstitutional is barred by laches, and perhaps estoppel. Has that kind of argument ever been used to save an otherwise unconstitutional statute?

    No. You're thinking too literally. You're quite right that wheter a law is unconstitutional is independent of whether someone is procedurally barred from making a claim. For instance, if you fail to make a legal claim prior to final disposition of your case in many states, you are estopped from making that claim later, no matter the merit of the claim. That's just pragmatism in the mechanics of the legal system.

    But what Glenn's arguing for here is the apparent general consensus of opinion previously on the actual issue in question. This is not mandatory authority, but it is persuasive authority, which may be all you have to go on for an issue being considered for the first time.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  27. Anonymous1:10 PM

    The Hidden Imam said...
    Sorry for choosing another topic, but this just blew my mind.


    Google the National Post... It's the favorite Canadian "news" source for this clown.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Anonymous1:11 PM

    Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are dead.

    Some people might make the false argument that the Founding Fathers couldn't have envisioned a wired World and so Article II is adapted to fit the President's current need. (Well maybe Ben Franklin and his kite flying would have something to say about a wired world.) But this ignores the fact that spying is probably as old as humankind itself. No one likes to spied upon. It got Polonius, Rosencrantz, and Guildenstern quite dead. If anything, the carefully crafted US Constitution directly addresses these types of abuses and attempts to prevent them in every way in impinging on personal liberty.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Anonymous1:13 PM

    OT- Glenn, I hope you archive all your posts someplace other than here, even a back-up blogger site is better than nothing, but someplace. Blogger has been known to "eat" everything.

    ReplyDelete
  30. arne: Let's organize the "Million Pitchforks" march.

    I've already proposed the idea of a "Day without Patriots" civil action. The outraged Left on this list responded like their reps in Congress when it comes to directly confronting the lies and deception of this admin: silence.

    ReplyDelete
  31. I also noted that he said that in every case, there was probable cause. Why the hell was he so insistent on that "reasonable basis" nonsense a few months ago if there was probable cause for everyone? This smells incredibly bad.

    Hayden is bad, bad news.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Sorry for the double-post. Hayden's exact quote was "The folks out there are batting a thousand. No one has said that there's targeting that's not based on probable cause."

    I don't get it. He said it was a reasonable basis standard and argued with a reporter for several minutes on the subject because he was so adamant that probable cause wasn't necessary. He said that there was targeting that wasn't based on probable cause, so saying that "no one" has said it is incoherent and blatantly false. I really can't figure out what this guy's trying to do here.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Anonymous1:19 PM

    while the basis of whether a law is constitutional or not is a fundamental conversation to be had in a republic or a democracy, i think that all of this debate really misses the point (tho I agree with the substance of the debate).

    the point is, we have allowed as a nation in our laziness and idle consumptive stupor the opportunity for an elite cabal of powerful and self-serving interests to establish an entrenched network of self-reinforcing control mechanisms. in Texas, where our Homeland Protector claims to hail, this is often called a "good old boy's club"

    these interests, consciously or unconsciously, do not hold the Law or a constitution as anything more than a tool to be manipulated.

    back in the 1930s in Germany, Hitler had support from a similar good old boy's club of monied, powerful interest: the weapons industry, the energy industry and the manufacturing industry -- among others. and he and his supporters subverted laws while all the time maintaining a semblance of adherence to the notion that these laws were relevant except in matters of national security.

    opponents of Hitler continuously missed this point until it was too late: they were either jailed, killed or had fled the country. everyone else was silent -- even when the majority of citizen held a less than positive view of their "Decider"

    now surely we haven't arrived at the Fascist endgame that this process represents. but we have had our Reichstag fire -- a putative "terrorist act" that frightened a significant portion of the German public into accepting whatever party platform that spoke to their desire to be led safely out of the perception of imminent danger. and we have had the building blocks of our own Enabling act: the method by which the rubber stamp right wing Congress of Germany delivered the reigns of executive power to Hitler. and we see in rising and party sanctioned anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim, and anti-gay rhetoric the attempts to manipulate and sway citizenry through fear and hate just as Jews, gypsies, Slavs and homosexuals were demonized in propaganda and popular culture before the march to the Deatch Camps began.

    all of these steps were (and are) part of a deliberate and methodical process used as cover to consolidate and seize absolute power in a polity presumably governed by popular will.

    that's the point.

    we can debate the law all we want, but the law will not necessarily aid us if we do not address the fundamental achilles heel of a democratic soceity that through authoritarian and/or fascist social movements as been repeatedly exploited since the 19th century.

    how do we move the conversation from: "goddamn, he broke the law! yes he did" to "goddamn, he broke the law and he will be punshed according to the law" before it is too late and the law means nothing at all?

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anonymous1:25 PM

    National Post - The Canadian "Faux News" Corp. Read the wiki entry, it's replete with juicy links. I laughed my ass off... because we all know reality has a "liberal bias".


    The Post was founded in 1998 by Conrad Black to combat what he saw as an 'over-liberalizing' of editorial policy in Canadian newspapers. Black built the new paper around the existing Financial Post, an established business-oriented newspaper in Toronto which he purchased from Sun Media in 1997. (Financial Post was retained as the name of the new paper's business section.)

    From the beginning the Post has had a strongly conservative editorial stance, and has an editorial page featuring the writings of many prominent neo-conservatives and libertarians from the United States and Canada, including Diane Francis, Andrew Coyne, Mark Steyn and David Frum. This stance is typically mocked by those who refer to the paper as the "Fascist Post" or the "Zionist Post". A number of newspaper stands in Toronto holding the National Post for sale have been vandalized with these statements.

    The Post's unique graphic and layout design have won numerous style awards over the years. It's a retro look — with echoes of 1930s design — jazzed up with eye-catching touches, such as oversized headlines, layering of multi-coloured type, reverse type, and jarring colours.

    In 2001 the paper was sold to CanWest Global Communications, run by Israel Asper until his death in 2003. CanWest Global also owns the Global Television Network, and there has been heavy cross-promotion between the two since then.

    CanWest Global and the Post are now managed by Asper's sons, Leonard and David. The Aspers openly admit that they control the editorial content of the paper. One of the family's most notorious positions is its longstanding view that the CBC(Canada's public broadcaster) should be dismantled because of its supposed anti-Israel reportage. The paper has become somewhat less conservative under the Aspers' watch, as they have long been strong supporters of the Liberal Party. However, the paper endorsed the Conservative Party of Canada in the 2006 election, and Leonard Asper appeared with Conservative leader Stephen Harper on the campaign trail.

    The paper has been a victim of high staff turnover. In the seven years that the paper has been in operation, it has had seven different publishers. Most recently, a former editor of the Toronto Sun, Les Pyette, was hired to help increase circulation. However, Pyette left the paper in July, 2005 along with columnist Rachel Marsden. Award winning columnist Cleo Paskal left in August to join the Toronto Star. National Newspaper Award winner Andrew McIntosh quit he paper in March 2005 to join The Sacramento Bee in California, while Bill Curry joined The Globe and Mail, Sean Gordon joined the Toronto Star and Robert Fife joined CTV as its Ottawa bureau chief (all in 2005). There were at least a dozen other staff defections under editor Matthew Fraser, who was replaced by Doug Kelly.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Anonymous1:26 PM

    Glenn:

    UPS just delivered my book. Work be damned: I'm going home to read it.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Anonymous1:31 PM

    Luckily, Nancy Pelosi has ruled out impeachment proceedings, so Bush will never have any sort of comeuppance.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Anonymous1:33 PM

    Yesterday, I believe Gen. Hayden claimed, when he was questioned by dems, that the NSA program was "legal" based on the white house counsel's, justice dept, and NSA lawyer's "review" of what the president wanted to do, and all based upon "article II" which would suggest that this "legallity" was actually based on president bush's "legal theory of unlimited powers" and not on historical precedent, nor congressional history, nor judicial history. No Independent legal analysis of this wild legal theory which changes or is an attempt to rewrite American Constitutional history. I do not recall anyone following up with this line of questioning according to Gen. Hayden's answer about this all being based upon the president's theory of unlimited executive power?

    ReplyDelete
  38. Anonymous1:53 PM

    "I've decided that anytime I now hear the word "classified", I can rightly assume it's code for illegal."

    Of course.

    'twas ever thus.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Glenn:

    I was hoping that you would bring up the FISA hobby horse again. It gives me the opportunity to introduce the newly released 135 page Federalist Society brief into the fray.

    http://www.fed-soc.org/pdf/terroristsurveillance.pdf

    The FS offers a much more detailed historical context than does the much shorter DOJ white paper, including some fascinating opinions rendered by Justice Jackson concerning the powers of the executive.

    However, for the purposes of this FISA rehash, I would like to discuss a new argument offered by the FS brief which is so obvious I can kick myself for not spotting it myself when I read the statute.

    Here is the relevant portions of the FS brief (pp.54-58):

    The most manifest – although completely unmentioned by the program’s critics (and, to be fair, given little attention by the administration) – comes right out of the most rudimentary aspect of FISA itself: the statutorily defined species of “electronic surveillance” which come within FISA’s ambit. There are four of these set forth in Section 1801(f):

    (1) the acquisition by an electronic, mechanical, or other surveillance device of the contents of any wire or radio communication sent by or intended to be received by a particular, known United States person who is in the United States, if the contents are acquired by intentionally targeting that United States person, under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes;

    (2) the acquisition by an electronic, mechanical, or other surveillance device of the contents of any wire communication to or from a person in the United States, without the consent of any party thereto, if such acquisition occurs in the United States, ...;

    (3) the intentional acquisition by an electronic, mechanical, or other surveillance device of the contents of any radio communication, under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes, and if both the sender and all intended recipients are located within the United States; or

    (4) the installation or use of an electronic, mechanical, or other surveillance device in the United States for monitoring to acquire information, other than from a wire or radio communication,
    under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes...

    Parsed carefully, for all the high dudgeon about extensive “domestic spying,” the range of conversations implicated in this controversy – which is to say, the ground where the NSA surveillance and FISA actually converge – may be much narrower than commonly supposed.160

    It is well settled, for example, that no expectation of privacy – and thus neither a warrant nor a probable-cause requirement – attaches to ingress and egress at our national border.165 That principle has long embraced communications. In United States v. Ramsey (1977), the Supreme Court held that all international postal mail may be searched without warrant.166 Significantly, rejecting any distinction between international communications and other types of cross-border transport, the Court turned aside contentions based on (a) purported First Amendment free-expression concerns and (b) the suggestion that the stream of communications represented by mail conveyance differed meaningfully from an individual’s physically carrying a letter across the border.167 Then-Justice Rehnquist, writing for the Court, put it succinctly: “There is no reason to infer that mailed letters somehow carry with them a greater expectation of privacy than do letters carried on one’s person” (emphasis added).168 Given that no
    expectation of privacy attends letters physically transported across borders, neither do such expectations attend communications placed in the stream of international commerce by telecommunications networks.169 Were that
    not the case, then the United States would no longer retain sovereign control over its own territory.


    In a nutshell, by its own terms, FISA only applies "under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes." Therefore, FISA could not apply to the international electronic communications the NSA is allegedly monitoring between al Qaeda and US telephone numbers.

    Finally, I can understand why the Administration drew a bright line between domestic communications and international communications - the latter simply do not fall under the terms of FISA.

    General Hayden stated that he conferred with his NSA lawyers (not DOJ) when deciding how to implement this program. That is the reason for the disconnect between the DOJ white paper and Gonzalez's statements and what NSA is reportedly doing.

    Hat tip to the Federalist Society for the pickup.

    Any serious responses?

    ReplyDelete
  40. bart: General Hayden stated that he conferred with his NSA lawyers (not DOJ) when deciding how to implement this program.

    According to NYTimes (via War & Piece) NSA lawyers were very reluctant to implement this program. They apparently had enough sway to limit the unrestrained parameters on spying that Cheney was pushing:

    But N.S.A. lawyers, trained in the agency's strict rules against domestic spying and reluctant to approve any eavesdropping without warrants, insisted that it should be limited to communications into and out of the country, said the officials, who were granted anonymity to discuss the debate inside the Bush administration late in 2001.

    Why Hayden decided to go with the DoJ on this is a question I did not hear Hayden answer yesterday--but then I was relying on CNN's coverage until half-way into the senate intelligence hearing.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Anonymous2:11 PM

    From anonymous at 1:31PM:

    "Luckily, Nancy Pelosi has ruled out impeachment proceedings, so Bush will never have any sort of comeuppance."

    You mean beyond being judged as the worst, most incompetent President in US history, already admitted as a vertiable laughing stock both at home and abroad, and quite possibly never able to play the usual 'distinguished elder statesman' expected of former Presidents because, quite simply, he'll likely be lynched in any other country?

    ReplyDelete
  42. Anonymous2:18 PM

    From Bart at 2:00PM:

    "In a nutshell, by its own terms, FISA only applies "under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes." Therefore, FISA could not apply to the international electronic communications the NSA is allegedly monitoring between al Qaeda and US telephone numbers."

    Whoopie for the Federalist Society, whose breif has no legal standing and simply regurgitates already-settled arguments. Anyone paying attention already knows FISA's parameters.

    Now, exactly what does that have to do with the program under discussion, which has effectively (but not conclusively) been admitted to target domestic calls within the US within *unspecified* parameters?

    You yourself admit there is some ambiguity on this point, saying it "allegedly monitoring between al Qaeda and US telephone numbers".

    Any serious response?

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous2:23 PM

    bart cites FedSoc, the fascists in suits, and robes when they can get on the bench..

    ReplyDelete
  44. Anonymous2:26 PM

    I think the bluememe laches question and arne langsetmo's response raise a different issue about the administration's unconstitutionality argument. I think the argument isn't that FISA is unconstitutional on its face, i.e., in all of its applications. That's why this administration and previous administrations complied with it in other circumstances. Instead, the argument is that in this situation, where they want to do something specific that they believe they're authorized to do by the Constitution, FISA stands in the way. It would be unconstitutional, they say, to prevent them from doing what it is we want to do, so FISA, as applied in this situation, would be unconstitutional.

    The differences between facial and as applied challenges were discussed a lot in and around this term's Ayotte vs. Planned Parenthood case in the US Supreme Court.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Anonymous2:27 PM

    The reason they have ignored FISA is because they can. Bush is testing the limits of he freedom and finding few.

    It is scary to think how a totally free Bush will act when his term is over? Will he stay?

    ReplyDelete
  46. Anonymous2:32 PM

    Bart,

    You have yet to explain your affinity, identification and similarity with Italian fascism to me.

    From The American Conservative magazine.

    Flirting with Fascism


    Neocon theorist Michael Ledeen draws more from Italian fascism than from the American Right.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Anonymous2:37 PM

    Hayden "acknowledged that when President Bush ordered the NSA to engage in warrantless eavesdropping on Americans, the administration did not, at that time, rely upon any purported claim that Congress had authorized the President to engage in warrantless eavesdropping via its authorization to use military force against Al Qaeda. That legal theory justifying violations of FISA only came much later."

    I have been practicing law for 33 years, and one thing I have learned is how to tell when someone is just inventing an argument to justify something the client has done. This smelled post hoc to me all the way. First, it draws the eye away from the ball: it focuses attention on the war in Iraq, or for those who sucked up the Kool-aid, the war on terror. Second, it has a faint connection to reality through the references to the AUMF in O'Connor's decision in Hamdi (sorry, no cite, my Westlaw subscription is fouled up).

    Third, it lacked direct source in the law, but came instead from a nuanced reading of the law, again, bolstered in a faint way by O'Connor's language. Finally, it cannot be defeated by any known rule of law. It stands alone.

    It could only come from a tool. No self-respecting lawyer would make that kind of argument. I could understand it if it came say from Bart, who apparently has no professional sensibility (if in fact he passed the bar), or if it came from a paid criminal defense lawyer, in the way such are characterized by Christy Hardin Smith at Firedoglake. What disgusts me is that it came from the Attorney General, whose sense of his Cabinet position is so degraded that he sees the president at his client, rather than the Nation.

    ReplyDelete
  48. nuf said: Cynic said "I've already proposed the idea of a "Day without Patriots" civil action. "

    I liked the idea. I didn't realize you were proposing it, I was waiting to hear more.


    Thanks for your response. I proposed it to garner some ideas about a (symbolic) date for it, as well as some further suggestions about what people can do with the time they have when taking off work.

    Once I (we?) come up with a date, I'd start a blog as a central information hub. Of course, I'd appreciate any help with the blog that people might be willing to give.
    -------------
    Here's the proposal again:

    Day without a Patriot

    Issues

    1) Stop the War in Iraq

    2) Find and Arrest bin-Laden

    3) Stop Spying on Americans

    4) Close the torture houses

    Action

    People supporting these issues will simply stay away from work. Excluded--for now--are people who provide vital services.

    For those willing to do so, silent mass march on the Capitol, the White House, and the Pentagon.

    For others, possible actions while taking the day off could include:

    * Writing a letter to the editor in opposition to one of the issues.

    * Inviting friends and acquaintances into your home to discuss the issue.

    * Running an advertisement in the newspaper that notes the issues and why people should endorse them.

    * Reading a book that covers one of these issues.

    * Engaging in on-line discussion groups to discuss these issues.

    * Monitoring the national news and send emails to correct misstatements of facts or refusal to adequately cover the event.

    * Putting a US flag out. If you don’t have one buy it and fly it from a window.

    * Publishing photos of the Iraq carnage at your blog. If you don’t have blog create one and publish the photos.

    (Suggestions for further actions requested)

    Operational Guidelines

    Do not be provoked into countering negativity with negativity. While anger and indignation might be warranted, this is a day for education. Be informed to inform; be educated to educate; be Socratically open to questions to Socratically ask questions.

    Counter-Attack

    Companies that threaten or take action against employees who opt out of working on this day are to be published on a national web page and people encouraged to boycott the company and its services/products.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anonymous2:42 PM

    This post of Glenn's is consistent with a horrifying realization that I have been arriving at in these last weeks.

    I won't go into the details as I am sure nobody is even interested but I have now connected all the dots that are really relevant and I am convinced that our former Consitutional Republic has been doomed and on its death bed since 1980, the year that an actual Fascist, an actual believer in a Fascist theory of Government, an intelligent, extraordinarily effective, highly connected, powerful, organized, influential, patient, methodical and competent man formally got into the White House.

    He and his "brethren" were able to stop working behind the scenes and begin the methodical, systematic dismantling of our Consitutional Republic and the theory of Government on which this nation's codified laws were based.

    And I am not talking about Ronald Reagan.

    There's been an Elephant in the room all right, but with all the "look here", "look there" diversions that distract a nation and capture the focus of the eternal warring special interests groups, nobody really noticed that the Elephant had entered the room.

    Ever since 2001 increasing numbers of people have started to notice that the temperature in the room has been slowly but steadily rising to ever more uncomfortable levels making it more and more difficult to breathe.

    But to this day, May 19, 2006, nobody has been able or willing to identify the Elephant which formally entered the room in 1980, has been there ever since and has been steadily sucking out all the air.

    Clarification: By "Elephant in the room" I mean the concept of a huge, dominating presence which is there but not visible to the naked eye.

    I am not speaking, of course, about actual elephants, one of the few most gentle, majestic, noble and by nature non-violent of all species. Just wanted to make that clear and of course they are herbivores, not carnivores.

    However this metaphorical Elephant does indeed share certain traits with actual, physical elephants.

    I quote the last stanzas of one of the great poems of all time "The Elephant is Slow to Mate" by D.H. Lawrence.

    So slowly the great hot elephant hearts
    grow full of desire,
    and the great beasts mate in secret at last,
    hiding their fire.

    Oldest they are and the wisest of beasts
    so they know at last
    how to wait for the loneliest of feasts
    for the full repast.


    They do not snatch, they do not tear;
    their massive blood
    moves as the moon-tides, near, more near

    till they touch in flood.
    *

    *For the "human" elephant in the room, one must use the second dictionary definition of "wise":

    2 a : evidencing or hinting at the possession of inside information : KNOWING b : possessing inside information c : CRAFTY , SHREWD

    Basically, "all knowing."

    Unfortunately, it appears "we the people" never really had a realistic chance. "We" are not that knowing, not that shrewd and we certainly are not that crafty.

    ReplyDelete
  50. In a nutshell, by its own terms, FISA only applies "under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes." Therefore, FISA could not apply to the international electronic communications the NSA is allegedly monitoring between al Qaeda and US telephone numbers.

    In a nutshell, this makes no sense on any level:

    (1) There is nothing about this argument that distinguishes international from domestic calls. An American's reasonable expectation of privacy isn't any less for international calls than it is for domestic calls, and nothing in the statute draws any such distinction.

    (2) Everyone has an expectation of privacy for all calls they make. This argument would destroy the Fourth Amendment - it would enable the Government to listen in on any calls it wants without warrants as part of a criminal investigation and then say - "Hey, anyone who talks to a drug lord has no reasonable expectation of privacy, so we don't need a warrant" - "Hey, anyone who talks to a suspected murderer has no reasonable expectation of privacy," etc.

    The whole point of the Constitution is that the Commander-in-Chief doesn't get to strip people of their constitutional protections based upon his unilaterally decreed suspicions. He has to convince a court that there is reasonable grounds for listening in.

    (3) Not even the administration makes the argument that FISA doesn't apply to international calls. That shows how empty and absurd this argument is. The DoJ is trying to find every argument it can to justify what it did. The fact that they - nor any of their allies among law professors or politicians - ever claimed that FISA is inapplicable to international calls or calls where someone is talking a "suspected terrorist" gives you a pretty good idea of the worth of this argument.

    ReplyDelete
  51. This op-ed from the LATimes sums up Bart's position I believe:

    This archaic law should be euthanized. Replace it with legislation that gives the president permission to order any surveillance deemed necessary, subject to only one proviso: If it is later determined that an intelligence-gathering operation was not ordered for legitimate national security objectives — if, for instance, it was designed to gather dirt on political opponents — then the culprits would be punished with lengthy prison sentences. Given that our intelligence bureaucracy leaks like a sinking ship, it is a safe bet that any hanky-panky would become front-page news faster than you can say "Pulitzer Prize."

    So far there has been no suggestion that the NSA has done anything with disreputable motives. The administration has nothing to be ashamed of. The only scandal here is that some people favor unilateral disarmament in our struggle against the suicide bombers.


    The onslaught against the constitution has now become blatant and it is trying to gain mainstream legitimacy. How will you and how will the public at large respond?

    ReplyDelete
  52. Anonymous2:48 PM

    Glenn Greenwald - This argument would destroy the Fourth Amendment

    Damn those loose constructionists and judicial activists!

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous2:54 PM

    bart said:
    In a nutshell, by its own terms, FISA only applies "under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes." Therefore, FISA could not apply to the international electronic communications the NSA is allegedly monitoring between al Qaeda and US telephone numbers.

    You make a logical leap in assuming that FISA 'could not' apply because of what the NSA is 'allegedly' doing. You claim objective truth based on an uncorroborated, unproven (and self-serving) assertion. Using the word 'therefore' doesn't make your argument any more valid. Did you say you were a lawyer?

    I am an American citizen, I regularly make international calls, and I should (and do) have a reasonable expectation of privacy from my government when I make my international calls. My 4th Amendment rights as an American citizen don't disappear when my phone call crosses the border of another country.

    You also ignore the reality of the situation: the NSA and the President have admitted to monitoring American citizens, and as long as American citizens are involved in the surveillance, FISA applies.

    But as Glenn has mentioned before, bart, the Administration has not claimed that the Program complies with the FISA law. In fact, that's precisely Glenn's point: the President knew the Program did not comply with FISA, but he proceeded anyway because he believes he has the power to break the law.

    I wonder why you think the Program is legal when the Administration itself does not believe that.

    (BTW, bart, check yesterday's thread, because I took up your challenge)

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous3:13 PM

    cynic librarian, I am only vaguely interested in what you propose, mainly because the actions you recommend I have already taken and continue to take.

    I'd be far more interested in a much more narrowly defined action that would be visible and newsworthy. A mass march is a good start, but the MSM yawns at those. It needs to be a special kind of march- perhaps if everyone showed up in a uniform? With a large group showing that kind of discipline, the politicians would be scared s--tless.

    Matt Taibbi wrote about this type of protest in his book "Spanking the Donkey". I was convinced- it's too easy for TV reporters and politicians to label protesters as "hippies" and shrug them off.

    But if everyone showed up in suits and ties? Think about it- when was the last time you saw a mass march of 'executives'? Don't you think that would be memorable?

    ReplyDelete
  55. If you'd asked the question neutrally, "Which country is said to be potentially the next Nazi Germany?" I'd have assumed you were talking about America. I don't think a day goes by that I don't see people saying America is becoming or has actually become a fascist state. I've seen several saying that today.

    DAVID - Of all the countries in the world, you would say that the United States is the closest to Nazi Germany in terms of the defining attributes of Nazi fascism?

    And while I have you, is it true that you believe that the fault for the 9/11 attacks lies far more with the U.S. than with Al Qaeda, if any fault can be attributed to Al Qaeda at all? I saw a comment of your from ten days or ago which strongly, strongly suggested that to be the case and I didn't have the chance to ask you that then.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Anonymous3:16 PM

    DavidByron said...
    There is a growing consensus that Iran is potentially the next Nazi Germany

    If you'd asked the question neutrally, "Which country is said to be potentially the next Nazi Germany?" I'd have assumed you were talking about America. I don't think a day goes by that I don't see people saying America is becoming or has actually become a fascist state. I've seen several saying that today.


    The Muslims are the new Jews. And that story has been pretty much debunked.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Anonymous3:19 PM

    For far too long this crowd of fascists have been pulling the same schtick. The Gulf of Tonkin incident, The Kuwaiti baby incubators, the Iraqi WMDs. Now this nonsense about Iran. The real danger here is that no one believes them anymore, and when we get a new government, regime change, if you will, if someday some horror is actually taking place in some country, the population here is unlikely to believe it.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Anonymous3:22 PM

    PS. To hidden iman with regard to his link:

    I post here an actual excerpt I got from one of my best friends after I had emailed her a link to an article about the "killings in cold blood" done by the Marines.

    You might ask why this girl is one of my best friends. Because in every way if you simply do not talk about religion or politics which we never have, she is an amazing, accomplished, spectacular, exciting, creative, intelligent amusing person almost anyone would truly enjoy having as a friend.

    Imagine my shock when I received this email from her and these are her actual words--this is not some 101st keyboard activist person writing so this now confirms to me there really are actual people out there who think this way:

    3. I don't care about the Islamic barbarians. The "innocent mothers and children" who are cheerful suicide bombers of the true innocents. I do not give a damn about them.
    4. I would happily bomb them like we did Hiroshima...tomorrow! Later on today! Right now! All Muslims, the whole fucking middle east. Sorry about the collateral damage, but Allah Akbar - the men will have all those virgins to screw with, and the women won't have it any worse than they have it on earth in the Muslim culture. I D O N ' T C A R E.


    Each action has an opposite and equal re-action and it appears that would explain your link.

    Where it all started? I don't know. As one who was drawn to reason instead of mysticism from early on in life, I never bothered to learn much about religions.

    But they've all been around for quite some time haven't they? Their various "actions" and "re-actions" seem to have trapped rational, secular individuals right in the middle of their "faith-based" eternal warring.

    And the more theocratic this particular nation has become, the more trapped in the middle of all that mysticism fueled warfare the rest of us have found ourselves.

    ReplyDelete
  59. cfaller: Thanks for your comments. I understand what you mean about already having done those things.

    The big aspect of such a civil action is the economic impact that such an event would cause. Imagine the fear and trembling of those Repub and Dem politicians were the economy to come to a halt for one day.

    I agree with you about marches. that's why the main point is to make an economic statement. That, I believe would catch the MSM's attention. Of course, there could be "rolling" sick-outs, should this event not catch any attention. A "rolling sick-out" could occur over a week. People choosing arbitrarily and on their own schedules when to take that sick day off.

    The other things I suggested were ancillary projects and actions to this main event.

    ReplyDelete
  60. For those who really want to get to it in a debate about the "new Jews," you might consider reading this aritcle from Haaretz:

    The State of Israel was created by an act of international law in 1948, largely in response to the Holocaust. It was violently rejected by an Arab world that saw it as a new Western conquest of the territory over which so much blood had been spilled to defend Muslim sovereignty during the Crusades, so like most nation states Israel had to fight its way into existence. Its victory came at the expense of another people, whose dispossession was the precondition for Israel achieving an ethnic Jewish majority. And the conflict fueled by the unresolved trauma of its birth has condemned the Jewish state to behave in ways that mock the progressive Zionist dream of Israel fulfilling the biblical injunction to Jews to be a "light unto the nations."


    PS There's also this story that reports on a poll of Israelis that shows that a majority of them "want gov't to help Arabs emigrate."

    ReplyDelete
  61. anon: It's OK when they do it. It's not OK for anyone else, is that your argument?

    Let's not forget the King David Hotel and Menahem Begin, terrorist-become-Prime Minister.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Anonymous3:33 PM

    Let's not forget this...

    USS Liberty

    Because they used planes with no markings.

    The thing about Israel is they have an army, navy and air force. They even have "the bomb" but they aren't supposed to have that any more than the iraqis or Iranians.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Anonymous3:39 PM

    It's a matter of scale, imbecile. Muslims kill enormous numbers of innocent people.

    Name-calling already?

    The largest number of people that muslims massacred last century was in Indonesia. Literally millions, chopped off their heads and put them on sticks. They were "alleged commies" you see, and they were killed because the CIA and MI5 wanted it that way. It's OK if...


    On October 13 the Islamic organization Ansor holds anti-PKI rallies across Java. On October 18 around a hundred PKI are killed by Ansor. The systematic extermination of the party had begun.

    Over a million Indonesians accused of being members or supporters of PKI were killed in riots and witch hunts. Lists of suspected communists were supposedly supplied to the Indonesian military by the CIA. A CIA study of the events in Indonesia assessed that "In terms of the numbers killed the anti-PKI massacres in Indonesia rank as one of the worst mass murders of the 20th century..." [1].

    It must also be noted that the CIA was not the only party to the issue, and there was also British involvement in the events.

    Time Magazine presented the following account on December 17, 1966 : "Communists, red sympathisers and their families are being massacred by the thousands. Backlands army units are reported to have executed thousands of communists after interrogation in remote jails. Armed with wide-bladed knives called parangs, Moslem bands crept at night into the homes of communists, killing entire families and burying their bodies in shallow graves."

    "The murder campaign became so brazen in parts of rural East Java, that Moslem bands placed the heads of victims on poles and paraded them through villages. The killings have been on such a scale that the disposal of the corpses has created a serious sanitation problem in East Java and Northern Sumatra where the humid air bears the reek of decaying flesh. Travellers from those areas tell of small rivers and streams that have been literally clogged with bodies."


    It's OK if you are an imbecile, Warren.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous3:39 PM

    cfaller96 said:

    But as Glenn has mentioned before, bart, the Administration has not claimed that the Program complies with the FISA law. In fact, that's precisely Glenn's point: the President knew the Program did not comply with FISA, but he proceeded anyway because he believes he has the power to break the law.

    I wonder why you think the Program is legal when the Administration itself does not believe that.


    Perhaps the issue of whether FISA or the NSA spying is legal or not is not the proper question. The focus should be on the statement, but he proceeded anyway because he believes he has the power to break the law.

    Bush and his company seem to have embarked on a path that exercises power without regard to law and public opinion, seeking some purpose not clearly disclosed. Is is some super-patriotic vision of an all world dominating American superpower or a more mundane vision of stealing and controlling everything in the whole world in pure greed. We know that there is a veneer of super-patriotism plastered all over his program. This super-patriotism has manifested itself many time in history and always tragically in the end.

    What we have is a group who tests the limits of its power unrestrained by Congress or the Courts. The issue now is what other power can resist and limit that power before it consumes the nation. Is it Law? Is it the Congress or the courts? Is it the people?

    I ask the participants in this discussion: who or what can now resist the present Administration that acts, not because its acts are legal, but because it has the power and freedom to act without resistence or restraint?

    Soon the Bush group may learn that it has no restraint. I fear what will happen when they wake up to find the answer to who can resist is no one.

    ReplyDelete
  65. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Anonymous3:42 PM

    Warren,

    Only an imbecile who can't reproduce and has never had kids thinks that anybody on this planet is innocent. And I'm an agnostic or atheist, so it's got nothing to do with original sin.

    ReplyDelete
  67. And the more theocratic this particular nation has become, the more trapped in the middle of all that mysticism fueled warfare the rest of us have found ourselves.

    Having read a lot by both Steven Pinker and Dan Dennett (not to mention Richard Dawkins), I've convinced myself that the human religious impulse has evolved specifically to strengthen our in-group bonds and to enable us to wage war. I'm sure that there's nothing more reassuring, if you're going into battle (or worse yet a suicide mission) than knowing that the Creator of the Universe has got your back.

    I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine how, since the Universe has only one Creator, did we get split up into competing teams.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Anonymous3:47 PM

    Eyes Wide Open:

    That was a beautiful and creepy post about the Elephant in the room. Can you name it for us, if it wasn't Reagan?

    ReplyDelete
  69. Certainly the US is 100% to blame morally for 9-11 even if the event wasn't actually provoked by Bush in a manner analogous to Pearl Harbor, which we don't yet know. In a sense of poetic justice America richly deserved that and far worse. That's I hope uncontroversial. However two wrongs don't make a right.

    The more interesting question was whether 9-11 was a wrong at all.


    DAVID - Thanks for answering. I was unable to participate in the comment section yesterday, which included several comments by you about the meaning of patriotism. In retrospect, I'm glad I didn't have time to spend responding, because any time spent on that would have been wasted.

    I frequently express intense criticism of Bush followers for believing that the U.S. and its leaders are right no matter what. Your mindest is just the opposite side of the same miserable coin - the U.S. is the world's greatest evil, worse than Nazi Germany, wrong in every dispute, the root of all that is bad and wrong. I actually think that both irrational, absolutist views are motivated more by psychological than political factors, which is why attempting to engage those views rationally is as pointless as it is tiresome.

    ReplyDelete
  70. davidbyron: Cynical [sic] Librarian:
    The State of Israel was created by an act of international law in 1948

    You don't actually believe that Zionist propaganda do you?


    I do believe that Israel was established by UN vote of the security council. Do you information contrary to this?

    ReplyDelete
  71. Anonymous4:05 PM

    I think you are getting it Warren. American imperialism and interventionism since the end of WWII is it's own worst enemy.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Anonymous4:08 PM

    I do believe that Israel was established by UN vote of the security council. Do you information contrary to this?

    To the victor go the spoils, the knife to cut the pie however the victorious see fit, and the privilege of writing the definitive history of the great events. It's always been that way, hasn't it?

    ReplyDelete
  73. davidbyron: In any case the Zionists never had the slightest intention of limiting their invasion to the parts of Palestine that were handed over to them in the UN suggestion. Nor did they have any intention of observing the civil rights safeguards that were guaranteed to Palestinians under the UN suggestion.

    I don't disagree with this. I believe Benny Morris and other "new" Israeli hisotrians have unearthed some compelling evidence that counters the myths taught in Israeli and American schools.

    ReplyDelete
  74. Anonymous4:11 PM

    Prior to the invasion there was a General Assembly resolution that barely passed and is used by the Zionists in perpetuating the myth of legality.

    The UN PASSED this resolution. The UN legally recognizes the State of Israel. And yet you don't. That's because you don't give a shit about international law.

    What other countries recognized by the UN do you consider illegitimate?

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anonymous4:15 PM

    Now Warren is citing the UN as an authority and international law?
    Somehow I just know we haven't seen everything yet.

    This is a good time for LOLs and multiple !!!!!!!!s.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Anonymous4:21 PM

    CL,

    All nations have creation myths. Even ours...

    Founding Myths and the American Revolution

    We quote Patrick Henry here but that one quote we like never showed up on paper until 47 years after he gave that speech in 1775.

    Doesn't matter. The sentiment is still as American as Apple pie.

    ReplyDelete
  77. yankeependragon said...

    From Bart at 2:00PM: "In a nutshell, by its own terms, FISA only applies "under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes." Therefore, FISA could not apply to the international electronic communications the NSA is allegedly monitoring between al Qaeda and US telephone numbers."

    Whoopie for the Federalist Society, whose breif has no legal standing and simply regurgitates already-settled arguments. Anyone paying attention already knows FISA's parameters.


    In other words, you do not and most likely cannot dispute the legal point.

    Now, exactly what does that have to do with the program under discussion, which has effectively (but not conclusively) been admitted to target domestic calls within the US within *unspecified* parameters?

    I have no idea since there is no evidence at all that a program surveilling purely domestic calls without a warrant exists.

    You yourself admit there is some ambiguity on this point, saying it "allegedly monitoring between al Qaeda and US telephone numbers".

    I used the word "allegedly" because this is the report by the NYT, but several members of Congress who have been briefed on the NSA programs keep insisting that this story is badly distorted.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Anonymous4:30 PM

    Yeah Eyes Wide Open, who is this "elephant"? Are you writing a book? Is this a teaser (yawn)?

    ReplyDelete
  79. "FISA Hobby Horse"

    "It is well settled, for example, that no expectation of privacy – and thus neither a warrant nor a probable-cause requirement – attaches to ingress and egress at our national border"

    Bart makes a great point. How could the US government conclude that everybody within the borders of the US communicating with people outside our borders is nonetheless entitled to a 4th Amendment expectation of privacy?

    What about communications traced from outside the border coming into the US? Is the government supposed to drop incoming foreign surveillance at the border or prepare a FISA warrant portfolio for each such instance?

    It's ridiculous...

    ReplyDelete
  80. Anonymous4:34 PM

    DavidByron said...
    All nations have creation myths. Even ours...

    Trust me; America is in a league all of its own as far as national mythology goes.


    I probably fall somewhere between you and Glenn on the issue of American as a power for good or ill. The great harm we can do is a function of our (once?) great power. I also tend to think that nothing lasts forever and if we don't learn from our mistakes, and fast, we won't be that great for long.

    ReplyDelete
  81. davidbyron: This is from the general assembly resolution:

    Requests that

    (a) The Security Council take the necessary measures as provided for in the plan for its implementation;

    (b) The Security Council consider, if circumstances during the transitional period require such consideration, whether the situation in Palestine constitutes a threat to the peace. If it decides that such a threat exists, and in order to maintain international peace and security, the Security Council should supplement the authorization of the General Assembly by taking measures, under Articles 39 and 41 of the Charter, to empower the United Nations Commission, as provided in this resolution, to exercise in Palestine the functions which are assigned to it by this resolution;

    (c) The Security Council determine as a threat to the peace, breach of the peace or act of aggression, in accordance with Article 39 of the Charter, any attempt to alter by force the settlement envisaged by this resolution;

    (d) The Trusteeship Council be informed of the responsibilities envisaged for it in this plan;

    ReplyDelete
  82. Anonymous4:36 PM

    The FLY said...
    "FISA Hobby Horse"


    I can't make out your avatar but it looks like a steaming pile left by "the dog". That explains your presence, I guess.

    ReplyDelete
  83. cfaller96 said...

    bart said: In a nutshell, by its own terms, FISA only applies "under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes." Therefore, FISA could not apply to the international electronic communications the NSA is allegedly monitoring between al Qaeda and US telephone numbers.

    You make a logical leap in assuming that FISA 'could not' apply because of what the NSA is 'allegedly' doing. You claim objective truth based on an uncorroborated, unproven (and self-serving) assertion. Using the word 'therefore' doesn't make your argument any more valid. Did you say you were a lawyer?


    The leakers, the press and the government all appear to agree that the program in question is limited to international calls. None of the members of Congress who were briefed and actually saw the NSA program in action claim otherwise. Therefore, for the sake of this argument, we have to assume that is what is going on.

    I am an American citizen, I regularly make international calls, and I should (and do) have a reasonable expectation of privacy from my government when I make my international calls. My 4th Amendment rights as an American citizen don't disappear when my phone call crosses the border of another country.

    The Supreme Court disagrees. Any communications in and out of the country are subject to warrantless surveillance just like any goods imported or exported.

    You also ignore the reality of the situation: the NSA and the President have admitted to monitoring American citizens, and as long as American citizens are involved in the surveillance, FISA applies.

    There has been no such admission. The targets are international calls where one end is in the United States. They do not necessarily involve US citizens. Indeed, the vast majority of identified al Qaeda, including the entire 9/11 cell, appear to be immigrants. However, this is a red herring argument.

    By its own terms, FISA only applies "under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes." The Courts have held that international communications have no expectation of privacy nor does their surveillance require a warrant under the 4th Amendment. Therefore, FISA does not appear to apply.

    I wonder why you think the Program is legal when the Administration itself does not believe that.

    Huh? The Administration has always insisted that the NSA Program complies with the law.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Anonymous4:42 PM

    Gitmo inmates attack guards stopping a suicide

    This story has me horrified for this reason. Many of these individuals might possibly be completely innocent of any form of wrongdoing (who knows? it's possible even most of them are innocent) and the fact that some of them actually want to commit suicide rather than stay there is very ominous because it suggests those people are finding conditions there unbearable, so unbearable they would rather be dead.

    Imagine what a tragedy that is if these are innocent people.

    What is going on there anyway?

    Am I the only person who is so upset to find this out?

    Thursday's clash happened in a medium-security section of the camp, called Gitmo for short, as guards were responding to the fourth attempted suicide of the day at the detention center on the U.S. Navy base, Cmdr. Robert Durand said.

    I can't even take all this bad news anymore. Is there ever going to be any more good news in this country again?

    What does it mean these people would rather be dead than stay alive in Gitmo?

    Can you imagine the despair "irrelevant" people must feel when they have no more reason to hope and cannot even look forward to a day in court to prove their innocence, and even their families may not even know where they are?

    WHAT SHOULD WE DO ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR TRAVESTY OF JUSTICE?

    Tell me.

    PS. Noun 1. res judicata - a matter already settled in court; cannot be raised again

    Wasn't it sort of a "res judicata" in this country's Constitution that an individual would always get his day in court and be considered innocent until a court found him guilty?

    It would hardly seem that a war on a noun would have automatically reversed that established precedent.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Anonymous4:43 PM

    CL,

    Wikipedia has an entry on 1948 Arab-Israeli War

    where a neutrality dispute is raging, naturally. Read the discussions in the discussion tab.

    See also the entry on Israel

    ReplyDelete
  86. Glenn Greenwald said...

    Bart: In a nutshell, by its own terms, FISA only applies "under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes." Therefore, FISA could not apply to the international electronic communications the NSA is allegedly monitoring between al Qaeda and US telephone numbers.

    In a nutshell, this makes no sense on any level:

    (1) There is nothing about this argument that distinguishes international from domestic calls. An American's reasonable expectation of privacy isn't any less for international calls than it is for domestic calls, and nothing in the statute draws any such distinction.


    "Reasonable expectation of privacy" is the standard for requiring law enforcement warrants under the 4th Amendment. The Supreme Court has established that there is no reasonable expectation of privacy for communications in and out of the United States any more than there is one for imported and exported goods. FISA does not provide a different definition for "reasonable expectation of privacy" and appears to be relying upon the Court's definition.

    (2) Everyone has an expectation of privacy for all calls they make. This argument would destroy the Fourth Amendment - it would enable the Government to listen in on any calls it wants without warrants as part of a criminal investigation and then say - "Hey, anyone who talks to a drug lord has no reasonable expectation of privacy, so we don't need a warrant" - "Hey, anyone who talks to a suspected murderer has no reasonable expectation of privacy," etc.

    You are avoiding the point. No one is claiming that a someone loses their expectation of privacy just because they are accused of engaging in criminal activity. Rather, the Supreme Court has held that no one has a reasonable expectation of privacy in international communications crossing our borders.

    The whole point of the Constitution is that the Commander-in-Chief doesn't get to strip people of their constitutional protections based upon his unilaterally decreed suspicions. He has to convince a court that there is reasonable grounds for listening in.

    You are avoiding the point once again. This is not the argument which the government, the FS or I am making.

    (3) Not even the administration makes the argument that FISA doesn't apply to international calls. That shows how empty and absurd this argument is. The DoJ is trying to find every argument it can to justify what it did. The fact that they - nor any of their allies among law professors or politicians - ever claimed that FISA is inapplicable to international calls or calls where someone is talking a "suspected terrorist" gives you a pretty good idea of the worth of this argument.

    The NSA has never made an argument as to the legal authority they are using. It appears from General Hayden's public statements that NSA made this decision in house with Presidential approval. The DOJ was apparently tasked after the fact with issuing a legal brief and may not know what NSA is thinking.

    In any case, if a person acts without knowing about a legal defense, that legal defense does not disappear.

    So we get back to my point - Do you have any precedent at all for arguing that anyone has a 4th Amendment reasonable expectation of privacy for their international communications. As any crim law student knows, what you, I or anyone else personally expect is irrelevant.

    ReplyDelete
  87. davidbyron:I guess I am wondering what you were trying to show by posting some quotes of the GA resolution there....?

    The quote from the 1947 GA resolution seems to turn over oversight of this issue to the SC, which of course was dominated by the US and its allies. Once in the hands of this group, the fate of the region seems already to have been determined. Based on this partition, Israel declares independence in 1948 which is followed immediately by US recognition and Soviet recognition several days after that.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous5:02 PM

    Blowback is a term used in espionage to describe the unintended consequences of covert operations. Because the public was unaware of the operation, the consequences transpire as a surprise, apparently random and without cause. In context, it can also mean retaliation as the result of actions undertaken by nations. The phrase is believed to have been coined by the CIA, in reference to the shrapnel that often flies back when shooting an automatic firearm.

    In the 1980s, blowback became a central focus of the debate over the Reagan Doctrine, which advocated militarily supporting resistance movements opposing Soviet-supported, communist governments. In one case, covert funding of the Contras in Nicaragua would lead to the Iran-Contra Affair, while overt support led to a World Court ruling against the United States in Nicaragua v. United States. Critics of the Reagan Doctrine argued that blowback was unavoidable, and that, through the doctrine, the United States was inflaming wars in the Third World. Conservative advocates, principally at the conservative Heritage Foundation, responded that support for anti-communist resistance movements would lead to a "correlation of forces," which would topple communist regimes without significant retaliatory consequence to the United States, while simultaneously altering the global balance of power in the Cold War.

    Given prior CIA support of the Islamic insurgency in Afghanistan and purportedly also of Osama bin Laden, it could be argued that the September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attack is the most prominent contemporary example of blowback, since some contend that this U.S. support actually helped build Bin Laden as a geopolitical force. See Manchurian blowback.


    See also deniability, Reagan Doctrine.


    Oddly this entry doesn't include our interference in Iran and Operation Ajax

    We may be as responsible as anyone for the Iranian state today.

    See SAVAK

    ReplyDelete
  89. Hayden said under questioning that he consulted adminstration and NSA lawyers who gave the program a green light. As was pointed out, he didn't even read the Justice Department's legal justification. He seemed to have had little concern over the legality of the program, though he is certainly as responsible for it as anyone.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Anonymous5:09 PM

    The FLY said...
    anonymous,

    Stupid is as stupid does... Nice to see you haven't forgotten the family creed.


    There is an entire non-fiction world out here. It's called reality. Check it out. Don't let the "liberal bias" of reality scare you.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Anonymous5:10 PM

    cynic librarian said:
    I agree with you about marches. that's why the main point is to make an economic statement. That, I believe would catch the MSM's attention. Of course, there could be "rolling" sick-outs, should this event not catch any attention. A "rolling sick-out" could occur over a week. People choosing arbitrarily and on their own schedules when to take that sick day off.

    Rolling "Patriot Flu", now you're talking. I disagree about how to implement, however- no protest will be taken seriously without showing a certain level of discipline and size.

    In that sense, the "Patriot Flu" must be organized on specific days, not just during a week. You just have to roll the dice and hope that enough are able to do it to catch the MSM's attention.

    I would also take it a step further and organize the "Patriot Flu" by geography. Seattle on day X, Portland on day Y, etc.

    ReplyDelete
  92. ender: See my comment above at 2:39 pm.

    Any ideas?

    ReplyDelete
  93. Anonymous5:11 PM

    Hey! Is the "elephant" GHWB? He built the current security apparatus that "W" is abusing.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous5:13 PM

    I can't make out your avatar but it looks like a steaming pile left by "the dog".

    It happens.

    ReplyDelete
  95. cfaller: I would also take it a step further and organize the "Patriot Flu" by geography. Seattle on day X, Portland on day Y, etc.

    Yes, that might work better. As far as the day (or week) I think something symbolic will be useful. Week of July 4?

    ReplyDelete
  96. Anonymous5:18 PM

    Anonymous said...
    Hey! Is the "elephant" GHWB? He built the current security apparatus that "W" is abusing.


    EWO is incapable of seeing this trend or faction go back as far as it actually does in this country. It's been around since long before 1980.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Anonymous5:21 PM

    Like this far back... even farther.

    SAVAK was founded in 1957 with the assistance of the CIA and the Israeli Mossad. Its mission was to protect the Shah, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi of Iran, and control opposition, especially political opposition. Its first director was General Teymur Bakhtiar, who was replaced by General Hassan Pakravan in 1961 and later assassinated on the Shah's orders. Pakravan was replaced in 1965 by General Nematollah Nassiri, a close associate of the Shah, and the service was reorganized and became increasingly active in the face of rising Islamic and Communist militancy and political unrest. SAVAK reported directly to the Office of the Prime Minister and had strong ties to the military.


    Operations
    SAVAK had virtually unlimited powers of arrest and detention. It operated its own detention centres, like the notorious Evin Prison. It is universally accepted that SAVAK routinely subjected detainees to physical torture. In addition to domestic security the service's tasks extended to the surveillance of Iranians (especially students on government stipends) abroad, notably in the United States, France, and the United Kingdom.

    SAVAK agents often carried out operations against each other. Teymur Bakhtiar was assassinated by SAVAK agents in 1970, and Mansur Rafizadeh, SAVAK's United States director during the 1970s, reported that General Nassiri's phone was tapped. Hussein Fardust, a former classmate of the Shah, was a deputy director of SAVAK until he was appointed head of the Imperial Inspectorate, also known as the Special Intelligence Bureau, to watch over high-level government officials, including SAVAK directors. Also, SAVAK planned and executed Black Friday (1978).

    The CIA closely cooperated with SAVAK to provide them with intelligence on possible targets of assassination, many of whom were Communists. Many Communists were imprisoned or mysteriously disappeared as a result of this relationship. It is believed that the last director of SAVAK was on the payroll of the CIA. The CIA used the SAVAK to do its dirty work similar to how it used the South Vietnamese Intelligence apparatus to launch the brutal campaign of torture and assassination known as Operation Phoenix, during which 19,000 or more Vietnamese were killed.


    Post-Revolution
    Following the flight of the Shah in January 1979, SAVAK's 15,000 strong staff were targeted for reprisals, many of the senior officials were executed, and the organization was closed down by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini when he took power in February.

    SAVAK has been replaced by the theologically guising SAVAMA, Sazman-e Ettela'at va Amniat-e Melli-e Iran, later renamed to the Ministry of Intelligence. The latter is also referred to as VEVAK, Vezarat-e Ettela'at va Amniat-e Keshvar, though Iranians and the Iranian press never employ this term and use its official name as a Ministry.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anonymous5:22 PM

    I see the librarian with nothing else to do is trying to "show off" by "one upping" our "copy and paste" troll.

    How annoying, to argue the obvious like you have some great insight -- IT REALLY IS TIME TO DEFUND LIBRARIES IF THIS IS ALL YOU HAVE TO DO!

    Your know-it-all attitude and your inability to recognize a legitimate issue or information need really is an insult to librarians all over the world.

    Please, if you must continue to make a fool out of yourself, don't proclaim to the world that you are a librarian -- gives the profession a bad name.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Anonymous5:26 PM

    the fly said:
    Bart makes a great point. How could the US government conclude that everybody within the borders of the US communicating with people outside our borders is nonetheless entitled to a 4th Amendment expectation of privacy?

    I don't know what to make of this. American citizens are guaranteed 4th Amendment expectation of privacy. The US government is reasonable to assume that people "inside" our borders are American citizens. That doesn't mean that the government will "conclude" that "everybody" is a US citizen, it is just a reasonable assumption in order to guarantee 4th Amendment protections to American citizens. You're not saying that all of us should give up our 4th Amendment rights just because there might be some non-US citizens "inside" our borders, are you?

    the fly said:
    What about communications traced from outside the border coming into the US? Is the government supposed to drop incoming foreign surveillance at the border or prepare a FISA warrant portfolio for each such instance?

    Yes, and until this President the government did exactly that. Why do you have a problem with preparing a FISA warrant when US citizens are involved in the surveillance? Why do you want all of us to abandon our 4th Amendment rights?

    ReplyDelete
  100. Anonymous5:30 PM

    Wheeee! Swifboat idiots from Duluth get off the boat and on the black helicopters!

    Get your tin foil hat on, baby!


    North American Union to Replace USA?

    by Jerome R. Corsi
    Posted May 19, 2006

    President Bush is pursuing a globalist agenda to create a North American Union, effectively erasing our borders with both Mexico and Canada. This was the hidden agenda behind the Bush administration's true open borders policy.

    Secretly, the Bush administration is pursuing a policy to expand NAFTA to include Canada, setting the stage for North American Union designed to encompass the U.S., Canada, and Mexico. What the Bush administration truly wants is the free, unimpeded movement of people across open borders with Mexico and Canada.

    President Bush intends to abrogate U.S. sovereignty to the North American Union, a new economic and political entity which the President is quietly forming, much as the European Union has formed.

    The blueprint President Bush is following was laid out in a 2005 report entitled "Building a North American Community" published by the left-of-center Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). The CFR report connects the dots between the Bush administration's actual policy on illegal immigration and the drive to create the North American Union:

    ReplyDelete
  101. Anonymous5:36 PM

    White House In Disarray: Contradicting Snow, Gonzales Says President Bush Opposes Making English The National Language

    The last days in the bunker. I hope they all have their cyanide and side arms handy.

    ReplyDelete
  102. anon@5:22pm: I see the librarian with nothing else to do is trying to "show off" by "one upping" our "copy and paste" troll.

    Since you don't specify who this supposed troll is, I can't hope to respond to your accusations. I've responded to numerous comments here. Which ones do you pronounce to be trolls?

    As far as what I do or do not know, I am the first to admit I know nothing. Much of what I say should be taken in the form of a question, since I'm seeking an answer to these very difficult questions as much as anyone else.

    OTOH since you refuse to differentiate yourself from other anons, any comments you make are simply lost in the ozone. I can tell you from the more authentic anons who do differentiate themselves by their remarks only by the fact that you spend your time attacking my alleged "feeding of the trolls."

    Any chance I can get you to come out of the closet and give me a sign that it's you, there, somewhere, or perhaps nowhere like the nowhere man in the song? In fact, maybe you'd consider that as an alias since you seem to reflect no ideas or positive comments/opinions or questions of your own?

    ReplyDelete
  103. Anonymous5:51 PM

    Bush Administration - Almost as many rationales for the Iraq war as Baskin Robbins has flavors of ice cream.

    Bush administration has used 27 rationales for war in Iraq, study says

    ReplyDelete
  104. Anonymous6:00 PM

    I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Bush opposes making English the national language. After all, he can't speak English.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous6:04 PM

    Does anyone know how many Polish people Hitler exterminated?

    I read once that it was many millions, but I never saw any mention of them again so I can't remember.

    Weren't most of those Polish people Christians?

    I also read that Greece lost 50% of its population during World War 2 resisting the fascists and I believe Greece is a one religion country, Greek Orthodox, which is a Christian religion.

    If those two things I read are true, then it would appear Hitler was not only about exterminating Jewish people.

    Weren't there a lot of gypsies and gay people he wanted to eliminate also? Were they Jewish?

    And what about the Masons? Didn't he rail against them in Mein Kempf?

    How many Masons were killed by Hitler?

    My guess is not a whole lot.

    Anyone know?

    ReplyDelete
  106. Anonymous6:06 PM

    the cynic librarian said...
    anon@5:22pm: I see the librarian with nothing else to do is trying to "show off" by "one upping" our "copy and paste" troll.


    CL,

    Lots of people copy and paste. Ignore this moron. He is just trying to stir up trouble by implying that the C&P troll in question is Bart, while he is attacking you, giving the impression he is not one of the bart clones. It's one of bart's crew of propagandists and trolls who posts under a distinctive "nick" here. I'd bet money on it.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Anonymous said...

    the cynic librarian said... anon@5:22pm: I see the librarian with nothing else to do is trying to "show off" by "one upping" our "copy and paste" troll.

    CL, Lots of people copy and paste. Ignore this moron. He is just trying to stir up trouble by implying that the C&P troll in question is Bart, while he is attacking you, giving the impression he is not one of the bart clones. It's one of bart's crew of propagandists and trolls who posts under a distinctive "nick" here. I'd bet money on it.


    :::chuckle:::

    I have my very own "crew" here?

    This is almost as amusing as the claim that I work for the RNC and have a direct line to Karl Rove...

    ReplyDelete
  108. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anonymous6:16 PM

    bart said:
    The Supreme Court disagrees. Any communications in and out of the country are subject to warrantless surveillance just like any goods imported or exported.

    What are you talking about? I always thought the expectation of privacy on a telephone call was much, much greater than the importation of goods. Do you have any (post-FISA) case law to cite? Just because you say so doesn't make it true.

    bart said:
    There has been no such admission [that American citizens were caught in the Program]. The targets are international calls where one end is in the United States. They do not necessarily involve US citizens.

    Actually President Bush's 12/17/05 admission did almost as much, if couched in terms of "people with known links to al Qaeda". I suppose you could look at that and say he never truly "admitted" American citizens were involved.

    But I look at that and say, the President did not (and has not) denied that American citizens have been caught up in the Program. He has had ample opportunity to deny that American citizens are involved, yet he has declined. Why? The logical inference is that American citizens have been monitored.

    Even you won't go so far as to deny that, bart, and I suspect that deep down inside you agree with me that Americans have been monitored. I say American citizens are monitored in the Program. I await evidence to the contrary, or outright denials from the Administration.

    After some point in time, even you will have to concede that the lack of denial constitutes an admission. Or are you saying that unless and until the President gets up and says "I authorized a program that monitored American citizens without a FISA warrant", you'll believe the opposite?

    Maybe you just have to wait a little longer than the rest of us.

    bart said:
    The Courts have held that international communications have no expectation of privacy nor does their surveillance require a warrant under the 4th Amendment. Therefore, FISA does not appear to apply.

    Again, what are you talking about? What (post-FISA) case law are citing?

    bart said:
    The Administration has always insisted that the NSA Program complies with the law.

    But the Administration has never explained how this program complies with FISA law. In fact, one of the legal justifications offered (AUMF) has been so thoroughly debunked that the Administration doesn't mention it anymore.

    Now all we hear (if we hear anything) is that Article II makes this program legal. But again, how? The Administration declines to elaborate, and I wouldn't call that "insisting the program complies with the law".

    Insisting a program complies with the law, and proving it by submitting to judicial review are two different things, bart. When will the Administration "insist" the program is legal by "proving" it in a court of law?

    ReplyDelete
  110. Anonymous6:19 PM

    cynic librarian said:
    I think something symbolic will be useful. Week of July 4?

    Nah, too easy for the MSM to chalk it up to July 4th vacation time. I would go the other way- make it a time when there are no holidays, but lots of business activity. I'm thinking early fall, September or October or something like that. It would also coincide nicely with the run-up to the midterm elections.

    Keep the thoughts coming, this is good stuff...

    ReplyDelete
  111. I was hoping Glenn might answer this aspect if he chose to answer Bart at all. This does seem to be the gist of a new argument that I certainly wasn't aware of, and don't know the truth of. But if Bart is right, doesn't this pose a problem for us?


    This Supreme Court case says nothing other than the fact that a Congressional statute authorizing the inspection of packages being sent into the U.S. is constitutional, because there is no reasonable expectation of privacy with regard to packages shipped into the U.S. That is because when someone from OUTSIDE of the country sends a package into the U.S., everyone knows it can be opened by customs and inspected. That is true for every country. That's because the person sending the package in is doing so from outside of the country.

    When a U.S. citizen is having a private conversation in their home, the difference is obvious. And the Supreme Court in that case cited by the Federalist Society makes clear why:

    "But a port of entry is not a traveler's home. His right to be let alone neither prevents the search of his luggage nor the seizure of unprotected, but illegal, materials when his possession of them is discovered during such a search. Customs officials characteristically inspect luggage and their power to do so is not questioned in this case; it is an old practice and is intimately associated with excluding illegal articles from the country."

    No court has ever held - and, to my knowledge, nobody has ever even argued - that the Government can listen in on any international call it wants to without a warrant. That is what this claim amounts to. I do not have time to do the research now but I would be willing to bet anything that plenty of courts have invalidated evidence obtained by eavesdropping on international calls without warrants precisely because the 4th Amendment prohibits the Government from eavesdropping on the telephone conversations of American citizens without warrants.

    ReplyDelete
  112. cfaller96 said...

    bart said: The Supreme Court disagrees. Any communications in and out of the country are subject to warrantless surveillance just like any goods imported or exported.

    What are you talking about? I always thought the expectation of privacy on a telephone call was much, much greater than the importation of goods. Do you have any (post-FISA) case law to cite? Just because you say so doesn't make it true.


    Here is a repost of what I provided here earlier in the day:

    It is well settled, for example, that no expectation of privacy – and thus neither a warrant nor a probable-cause requirement – attaches to ingress and egress at our national border.165 That principle has long embraced communications.

    In United States v. Ramsey (1977), the Supreme Court held that all international postal mail may be searched without warrant.166 Significantly, rejecting any distinction between international communications and other types of cross-border transport, the Court turned aside contentions based on (a) purported First Amendment free-expression concerns and (b) the suggestion that the stream of communications represented by mail conveyance differed meaningfully from an individual’s physically carrying a letter across the border.167 Then-Justice Rehnquist, writing for the Court, put it succinctly: “There is no reason to infer that mailed letters somehow carry with them a greater expectation of privacy than do letters carried on one’s person” (emphasis added).168 Given that no
    expectation of privacy attends letters physically transported across borders, neither do such expectations attend communications placed in the stream of international commerce by telecommunications networks.169 Were that
    not the case, then the United States would no longer retain sovereign control over its own territory.


    bart said: There has been no such admission [that American citizens were caught in the Program]. The targets are international calls where one end is in the United States. They do not necessarily involve US citizens.

    Actually President Bush's 12/17/05 admission did almost as much, if couched in terms of "people with known links to al Qaeda". I suppose you could look at that and say he never truly "admitted" American citizens were involved.

    But I look at that and say, the President did not (and has not) denied that American citizens have been caught up in the Program. He has had ample opportunity to deny that American citizens are involved, yet he has declined. Why? The logical inference is that American citizens have been monitored.


    I don't disagree. It is unlikely that the monitored calls are all al Qaeda. These are merely international calls to and from telephone numbers captured in the possession of al Qaeda operatives.

    When the FBI is wiretapping the Mafia, the vast majority of the calls are non crime related everyday communications with often innocent American citizens.

    Standard set by the Courts for distinguishing between criminal investigations requiring a warrant and intelligence gathering which does not is who is being targeted. If the target is a foreign group and their agents in the US, the courts hold it is intelligence gathering. The possibility that the targeted al Qaeda telephone numbers may also engage in innocent communications is not a disqualifier.

    To minimize the intrusion further, the surveillance appears to consist of a computer program looking for certain words and phrases to trigger the recording of the actual conversation. This is actually far less intrusive than having an FBI agent listening to hours of telephone conversations.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous6:34 PM

    Anonymous said...
    the cynic librarian said...
    anon@5:22pm: I see the librarian with nothing else to do is trying to "show off" by "one upping" our "copy and paste" troll.

    CL,

    Lots of people copy and paste. Ignore this moron. He is just trying to stir up trouble by implying that the C&P troll in question is Bart, while he is attacking you, giving the impression he is not one of the bart clones. It's one of bart's crew of propagandists and trolls who posts under a distinctive "nick" here. I'd bet money on it.


    Is this referring to me? Or were you just shortening "nick-name"?

    just wondering...

    (second time in a week I've posted this question hoping I was wrong - really, I'm not that self-conscious)

    Cynic - thanks for the LA times quote - succinctly puts into words the worst of the reasoning being offerred in justification of this program -

    [Pass] ... legislation that gives the president permission to order any surveillance deemed necessary, subject to only one proviso: If it is later determined that an intelligence-gathering operation was not ordered for legitimate national security objectives — if, for instance, it was designed to gather dirt on political opponents — then the culprits would be punished with lengthy prison sentences. Given that our intelligence bureaucracy leaks like a sinking ship, it is a safe bet that any hanky-panky would become front-page news faster than you can say "Pulitzer Prize."

    So far there has been no suggestion that the NSA has done anything with disreputable motives. The administration has nothing to be ashamed of. The only scandal here is that some people favor unilateral disarmament in our struggle against the suicide bombers.


    There has been no suggestion because there has been no oversight.

    I'm getting a headache.

    ReplyDelete
  114. I just searched barts pdf file for the word "expectaion".

    It's very enlightening because no matter how reasonable the document seems overall, it gets surprisingly convoluted around that word.

    They basically argue that because a foriegn government isn't necessarily constrained by the forth amendment to not listen in, therefore our government shouldn't be either.

    And the only mention of the Supreme court concerns mail.

    FYI

    ReplyDelete
  115. Anonymous6:43 PM

    Only an imbecile who can't reproduce and has never had kids thinks that anybody on this planet is innocent. And I'm an agnostic or atheist, so it's got nothing to do with original sin.

    I don't follow this statement. What does this mean? Please explain further.

    Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  116. nick: Thanks for the comment. I didn't think it was you.

    ReplyDelete
  117. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Glenn Greenwald said...

    I was hoping Glenn might answer this aspect if he chose to answer Bart at all. This does seem to be the gist of a new argument that I certainly wasn't aware of, and don't know the truth of. But if Bart is right, doesn't this pose a problem for us?

    This Supreme Court case says nothing other than the fact that a Congressional statute authorizing the inspection of packages being sent into the U.S. is constitutional, because there is no reasonable expectation of privacy with regard to packages shipped into the U.S. That is because when someone from OUTSIDE of the country sends a package into the U.S., everyone knows it can be opened by customs and inspected. That is true for every country. That's because the person sending the package in is doing so from outside of the country.

    Packages? United States v. Ramsey, 431 US 606 (1977) held that international postal mail had no expectation of privacy. There doesn't appear to be anything special about computers, which are also subject to warrantless search if moved across our borders. United States v. Ickes, 393 F.3d 501 (4th Cir. 2005).

    When a U.S. citizen is having a private conversation in their home, the difference is obvious.

    We are not talking about private conversations within a home or even within the country.

    No court has ever held - and, to my knowledge, nobody has ever even argued - that the Government can listen in on any international call it wants to without a warrant.

    I am not sure either. However, I figure that the FS would have offered such case law if they found it in their research.

    Therefore, this is an argument of analogy.

    A person has a privacy interest for criminal investigation purposes in both mail and telephone calls within the United States which would require search warrants. However, the courts have held that this privacy interest is lost when that mail crosses the border. I am not aware of any case law which grants telephone calls or email any more protection than postal mail. Therefore, what applies to mail communications very arguably applies to electronic communications.

    If you find any contrary case law, let me know Glenn.

    ReplyDelete
  119. A person has a privacy interest for criminal investigation purposes in both mail and telephone calls within the United States which would require search warrants. However, the courts have held that this privacy interest is lost when that mail crosses the border. I am not aware of any case law which grants telephone calls or email any more protection than postal mail. Therefore, what applies to mail communications very arguably applies to electronic communications.

    This argument is completely dishonest. The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the 4th Amendment prohibits the Government from eavesdropping on an American citizen's telephone call without a warrant. YOU are the one who wants to claim a huge exception to that doctrine - that it does not apply to calls where the American is speaking to someone physically in another country. YOU are the one who has to justify that exception by citing to a single court - or presidential administration - anywhere, at any time, which ever claimed that the 4th Amendment only applies to domiestic but not international calls.

    That is a theory that exists only on the furthest ideological fringes, and is a creation from last week. Not even the administration has argued this. And no court has even hinted that it is accurate. And as I said, I'd be willing to bet lots of money that a small amount of reserach will reveal cases where warrants were held necessary for international calls, but NONE that said the 4th amendment does not apply to such calls.

    The mail cases are completely different from the telephone cases becasue mail is physically stopped at the border and can be searched as part of the long-standing border search doctrine. To say that there are no cases making clear that telephones aren't subject to the mail doctrine is idiotic. One would not expect to find any such cases because, at least to my knowledge, nobody has ever claimed that the Border exception applies to international calls. Every time courts have spoken to the 4th Amendment requirement for telephone calls they have made clear that Americans are entitled not to have their calls intercepted unless the Government has a warrant - go read Katz and Keith and you will see how frivolous this claim is.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Now that we have clarified what the Supreme Court actually has and hasn't held, I'd like to take this opportunity to point out this this is statement is blatantly false.

    The Supreme Court disagrees. Any communications in and out of the country are subject to warrantless surveillance just like any goods imported or exported.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous7:56 PM

    Nick -- Is this referring to me? Or were you just shortening "nick-name"?

    Nick name. Sorry, Nick. I should have said "handle" which might have only piqued the interest a dead composer.


    Bart...:::chuckle:::

    I have my very own "crew" here?

    This is almost as amusing as the claim that I work for the RNC and have a direct line to Karl Rove...


    Heh. You may know some of these trolls from Freep, LGF, or even met them in person when 400 of you showed up in D.C. the day after 400,000 of the "terrist sympathizers" and Mother Sheehan were there. I have pictures. Would you like to see them? They are comically sad and pathetic.

    Blogged Down

    During one especially hectic week in mid-February, the Internet took three scalps in what appeared to be unrelated events. Liberal bloggers forced Talon News White House correspondent James D. Guckert, a k a “Jeff Gannon,” to resign after it was revealed that he was writing under a false name for a Republican activist group (GOPUSA), that he was not really a journalist at all, and that he had posed nude on the Internet in an effort to solicit sex for money. Conservative bloggers, meanwhile, created a firestorm after Eason Jordan, the chief news executive for CNN, made controversial remarks during an off-the-record panel discussion at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, suggesting that the U.S. military had targeted journalists in war zones. Jordan was forced to resign. Finally, in Maryland, Joseph Steffen, a longtime aide to Republican Governor Robert Ehrlich, was fired after reporters exposed him as the author of e-mails and anonymous Web-site postings encouraging rumors about the marriage of Baltimore’s popular mayor, Martin O’Malley, a potential ’06 challenger to Ehrlich.

    All unrelated stories, except for the Internet angle, right? Well, no. Scratch the surface and the same names turn up in each scandal, revealing the events of mid-February to have been part of an ongoing and coordinated proxy war by Republican political operatives on the so-called liberal media, conducted through the vast, unmonitored loophole of the Internet.

    (...)

    But success bred change. Along has come a new group of bloggers who aren’t mere “citizens” at all... On the right, a number of these bloggers were already political operatives or worked at long-standing movement institutions before taking up residence online. They are, at best, the intellectual heirs of L. Brent Bozell of the Media Research Center and Reed Irvine, who founded the ultraconservative, media-hounding nonprofit organization Accuracy In Media (AIM) in 1969 as part of the first generation of post–Barry Goldwater right-wing institutions. At worst, they're the protégés of conservative fund-raiser Richard Viguerie and dirty-tricks master Morton Blackwell, who has tutored conservative activists since 1965, most recently mocking John Kerry at the Republican national convention by distributing Band-Aids with purple hearts on them.

    Which brings us back to Jordan. He was brought down not by outraged citizen-bloggers but by a mix of GOP operatives and military conservatives. Easongate.com, the blog that served as the clearinghouse for the attack on CNN, was helped along by Virginia-based Republican operative Mike Krempasky. From May 1999 through August 2003, Krempasky worked for Blackwell as the graduate development director of the Leadership Institute, an Arlington, Virginia–based school for conservative leaders founded by Blackwell in 1979. The institute is the organization that had provided “Gannon” with his sole media credential before he became a White House correspondent. It also now operates “Internet Activist Schools” designed to teach conservatives how to engage in “guerilla Internet activism.”

    Indeed, Krempasky could be found teaching this Internet activism course one recent February weekend to about 30 young conservatives at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in Washington. “He advocated that people write from their experience -- and not necessarily as conservatives,” a Democratic consultant who attended the seminar incognito told me. For example, Krempasky told “a conservative firefighter” that he should write about firefighting because that would be of interest to readers. Using that angle, he could build an audience. And if push ever came to shove, he could respond to an online dogfight from the unassailable position of being a firefighter -- and not as just another conservative ideologue. Krempasky then offered to help all the attendees set up their own blogs. “We’re definitely in serious trouble,” said the Democratic attendee.

    The tactics Krempasky promotes are directly descended from those advocated by the late Reed Irvine of AIM, whose major funder was, for the past two decades, Richard Mellon Scaife...


    ::::Chuckle::::

    ReplyDelete
  122. Anonymous8:06 PM

    The rest of this 2005 article at TAP may be of interest to many of you here. Bart already knows all about it. This is the last graf but there is much more...

    Blogged Down

    “The way I look at this,” says Daily Kos’ Gardner, “[Gannon] is just one more piece to a bigger puzzle that we’ve seen for the past couple months -- attempts by the Republican media complex not necessarily to fight the media but to become the media.”

    But unlike traditional news outlets, right-wing blogs openly shill, fund raise, plot, and organize massive activist campaigns on behalf of partisan institutions and constituencies; they also increasingly provide cover for professional operatives to conduct traditional politics by other means -- including campaigning against the established media. And instead of taking these bloggers for the political activists they are, all too often the established press has accepted their claims of being a new form of journalism. This will have to change -- or it will prove serious journalism’s undoing.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Anonymous8:23 PM

    bart said:
    In United States v. Ramsey (1977), the Supreme Court held...

    bart, I'm not going to reiterate what Glenn and others have said to debunk this legal claim. I am going to reiterate my request for post-FISA legal precedents. You know what that means, right? It means case law dealing with surveillance AFTER the FISA law was passed in 1978!

    (still waiting for your admission that Bush lied in the previous thread)

    ReplyDelete
  124. cfaller and ender and others:

    The blog for "Day Without a patriot" is up. It requires some editing and content. If you have ideas, please stop by and leave comments.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Anonymous10:10 PM

    Scalia Tells Congress to Mind Its Own Business

    Nice words Antonin. I applaud you for them. But you know what? It's the decisions themselves that count.

    I'll be waiting. Shape up please. You've got some serious splaining to do.

    BTW, Scalia and Thomas have sure written some terrific decisions in their time. I was reading their rulings yesterday in a trial lawyer friviolous lawsuit decision about sanctions against lawyers and they were really sensational.

    But what's on the table now primarily, imo, is the Fourth Amendment. That issue is so blinding it obscures all but a few others.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Anonymous10:22 PM

    Hidden Imam--this thread is probably not best used for that discussion. It's even possible that the report may be entirely false. I recall Iraqi expatriates also had many tall tales.

    Professor Foland, you do bring up an interesting point.

    I remember when there was about a week or so when I personally wanted to go nuke all Irish people, or maybe it was English people, I forget which now.

    It was because I had read that one of them was chopping off the heads of the other and putting them on poles and marching around with them.

    But then I read that Oliver Cromwell had created that myth and used it to inflame his troops and keep up their passion against the enemy.

    It does seem funny that the day after the story about those chopped off heads in Mexico appears, Hidden Iman says it was the Muslims doing it to the Indonesians.

    Maybe it's some sort of classic "urban legend" type thing because what could ever make anyone hate anyone else as much?

    We are all so much at the mercy of those who are reporting history or the news, aren't we?

    I guess that's why it's best to just concentrate on the morality of present policies and forget about history entirely.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Glenn:

    {Federalist Society (that is, John "Torture Is Good For The Soul" Yoo and company]: In a nutshell, by its own terms, FISA only applies "under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes." Therefore, FISA could not apply to the international electronic communications the NSA is allegedly monitoring between al Qaeda and US telephone numbers.

    [Glenn]: In a nutshell, this makes no sense on any level.

    Yeah, it's a circular definition. If we can tap you, you don't have a "reasonable expectation of privacy" so therefore we can tap you. Really, the 'reasoning' here is no more complicated than that.

    Obviously, if this "reasonable expection of privacy" clause is to have any meaning, it must derive the definition and cotext for such from other sources than this. Fortunately, we're not in a vacuum as to where people have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  128. Anonymous11:12 PM

    Glenn said...

    Four different presidential administrations prior to this one -- two Republican and two Democratic -- complied with its provisions while engaging in surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes, including during the height of our Cold War with the Soviet Union, and during all sorts of military actions, including the Persian Gulf War and military deployments in Latin America, Yugoslavia, and throughout the Middle East.

    Let's not forget a foreign terrorist attack on the WTC back in '93 and a domestic terrorist attack in Oklahoma in '95. Neither of which made the executive go all police state-ish for the nearly six years thence to the end of its term.

    9/11 changed absolutely nothing. If it had the sacrifices asked for would amount to something much more than merely acquiescing to a civil rights abridging, unitary "strong-daddy" executive, or so one would expect if we are to actually, y'know, LEARN from 20th century history.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous11:48 PM

    YAWN....

    Still beating this same dead horse are we??

    Says the "Dog"

    ReplyDelete
  130. Anonymous12:00 AM

    John Birch quoting (Harvard Ph.D) Jerome R. Corsi...

    Secretly, the Bush administration is pursuing a policy to expand NAFTA to include Canada, setting the stage for North American Union designed to encompass the U.S., Canada, and Mexico.

    Uh, Canada IS part of NAFTA.

    Black helicopters indeed.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Anonymous12:19 AM

    Does Bart look Mexican to anyone else here?

    ReplyDelete
  132. Anonymous12:22 AM

    anon and reichstag burning: Sorry, I was not trying to be mysterious about the "Elephant in the Room." I thought that was obvious.

    But it occurs to me that while the rest of you may have been studying history and current politics and law and all the things you write about, I was reading up vociferously about something else.

    But anyway think about it, does the CIA publicize what it is doing or is its whole m.o. to work strictly behind a very high wall of secrecy?

    So, think about it for a while before you say, no, that's not the Elephant.

    BTW, how anyone could even think that this President has even sneezed without first having consulted with his father just really amazes me. You didn't notice how seamlessly 43 opened the door for 41's other "elephants" to march right back in and now take over openly?

    (PS. I am sticking with my hunch about what the 2 hour finale of "24" this coming Monday is going to reveal.)

    Do you all think our present President is acting in a "kinder and gentler" way? Acorns do not fall far from trees, you know.

    When someone talks about using "American strength as a force for good", you don't realize he's talking about regime change and the New World Order? You don't have to force anyone to get them to let you be gentle and kind to them.

    And when 41 chose his own vice-president, you didn't know he chose Bill "Weekly Standard" Kristol (but he called him Dan Quayle for public comsumption and everyone just scratched their heads and said "Wow, I wonder why he was chosen as Vice-President. Seems like an odd choice" and then got distracted by all the talk about "family values".

    Like what? Torture? Lies? Lawlessness? Fomenting racial hatred and stirring up religious rivalries at the cost of untold bloodshed? Invading and occupying other countries based on lies and deceit? Revoking the Fourth Amendment? Dictatorship? Spying on every American citizen?

    What kind of "family" is that anyway?

    And what exactly are their values?

    Looks like a family run amok to me.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anonymous12:22 AM

    the Dog" said...
    YAWN....

    Still beating this same dead horse are we??

    Says the "Dog"


    Now we got a semi-live dog to beat for leaving another steaming pile here. Bad dog! No! Don't do that. It attracts Fly. Swat!

    ReplyDelete
  134. Just a couple of points in regards to warrantless spying

    First, on 12-17-05, during his weekly radio address, President Bush Jr said the following

    "In the weeks following the terrorist attacks on our nation, I authorized the National Security Agency, consistent with U.S. law and the Constitution, to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations. Before we intercept these communications, the government must have information that establishes a clear link to these terrorist networks."

    Now, as I'm not a lawyer, maybe I'm misreading that very last phrase, but doesn't that imply that a clear link must be established via specific communications to surveil?

    If so, then how is it possible to claim that monitoring up to 2 million phone calls per hour, and monitoring every call overseas, is actually providing a "clear link" as opposed to a massive fishing expedition?

    and from the article quoted below, is this passage

    "Attorney General Alberto Gonzales this week said the program only targeted messages ''where we have a reasonable basis to conclude" that one of the parties is affiliated with Al Qaeda."

    So how are messages targeted with a "reasonable basis" that one of the parties has ties with al-Qaeda when considering the following?

    Boston Globe, 12-23-05

    Wiretaps said to sift all overseas contacts

    ''The whole idea of the NSA is intercepting huge streams of communications, taking in 2 million pieces of communications an hour," said James Bamford, the author of two books on the NSA, who was the first to reveal the inner workings of the secret agency.

    ''They have a capacity to listen to every overseas phone call," said Tom Blanton, director of the National Security Archive at George Washington University, which has obtained documents about the NSA using Freedom of Information Act requests."

    Again, how does this massive fishing expedition square with Bush's claim of a "clear link" and Gonzales claims that only targeted messages with a reasonable basis of a connection to al-Qaeda are exempt from a warrant?

    If I'm being obtuse here, I do apologize, it just seems that such a massive amount of information belies those claims made by Bush Jr and Gonzales

    And as it turns out, purely domestic communications have been caught up in the dragnet

    From the Boston globe article, and note the name which is mentioned as well

    Under the 1978 law, NSA officials have had to obtain a warrant from the secret court before putting an American's information into their computers' search terms.

    The restrictions largely limited NSA to collecting messages from overseas communications networks, but some Americans' messages were intercepted before the 2001 terrorist attacks.

    Occasionally, the interception was deliberate. In April 2000, the NSA's then-director, General Michael Hayden, told Congress that since 1978 ''there have been no more than a very few instances of NSA seeking [court] authorization to target a US person in the United States."

    Washington Post, 12-18-05

    Pushing The Limits Of Wartime Powers

    "In a Sept. 25, 2002, brief signed by then-Attorney General John D. Ashcroft, the Justice Department asserted "the Constitution vests in the President inherent authority to conduct warrantless intelligence surveillance (electronic or otherwise) of foreign powers or their agents, and Congress cannot by statute extinguish that constitutional authority."

    "The brief made no distinction between suspected agents who are U.S. citizens and those who are not. Other Bush administration legal arguments have said the "war on terror" is global and indefinite in scope, effectively removing traditional limits of wartime authority to the times and places of imminent or actual battle."

    If the Administration is relying on that use of the term "foreign agents" to contenance warrantless spying on purely domestic communications if those "foreign agents" in the US and communicating with others in the US, then how is that not a clear violation of the FISA law?

    And isn't the FISA law itself subordinate to the 4th Amendment prohibitions regarding unreasonable search & seizure?

    And regarding the case highlighted by the NY Times, 4-26-06

    Cleric Wins Appeal Ruling Over Wiretaps

    An appellate court on Tuesday directed a lower court to consider statements by a Muslim cleric in northern Virginia that he had been illegally wiretapped under the warrantless eavesdropping program that President Bush authorized.

    The ruling opened the door to what could be the first ruling by a federal court on whether information obtained under the program, operated by the National Security Agency, had been improperly used in a criminal prosecution.

    ***********

    In an order released on Tuesday, the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit did not rule on the merits of Mr. Timimi's assertions about the N.S.A. program, but sent the case back to the federal trial court in Alexandria, Va., for a rehearing.

    ****************

    The appellate court gave the trial judge in the case, Leonie M. Brinkema, broad latitude, saying the trial court could "order whatever relief or changes in the case, if any, that it considers appropriate."

    *****************

    But a lawyer for Mr. Timimi, Jonathan Turley, said the appellate order was a significant and "extraordinary step" because appellate courts did not generally order a rehearing in a criminal case while an appeal was pending.

    "This is very good news for us, and we're eager to go back to Judge Brinkema to explore these troubling issues," Mr. Turley said in an interview.


    Considering that the 4th Circuit slapped down the Administration's claims in this case, isn't it a bit unlikely that the Administration will prevail if it appeals the case should Brinkema rule against the Govt?

    And if that's the case, then will it be the Administration's policy to not appeal this case so as to not get all it's claims regarding warrantless spying possibly slapped down by the US Supreme Cort?

    Because if the Supreme Court strikes down the Govt's actions in this case, down't that put the stake through the Govt's claims regarding warrantless spying onpurely domestic communications

    Thanks in advance for any answers here, and apologies again if I'm misreading-slightly or massively-with the questions I'm asking

    ReplyDelete
  135. Anonymous7:14 AM

    First, that was my post explaining who the "elephant in the room" was but I mistakenly put in 'anon'.

    David Byron: I like your posts but I don't have a complete handle on you yet. Are you a socialist btw?

    I was thinking about your exchange with Glenn about America. My views are well known about all these issues and so a part of me was agreeing with what you were writing.

    When Glenn responded, my initial re-action was he was too "patriotic".

    Then I had the most amazing experience. I watched a movie called "The White Countess" and I was completely shattered. (I strongly recommend that everyone see it.)

    I haven't really seen any war movies that I can recall because I was not allowed to watch anything even remotely violent as a child. When you never see anything violent as a child you develop a complete inability as an adult to be able to handle it without getting extraordinarily upset so I have zero ability to watch or even read about those things without feeling real terror and being tortured and having nightmares. So I don't, except recently on the Internet about Iraq.

    Anyway, this movie is not really a war movie but after it was over I felt like I had personally lived through a hundred wars.

    The only actual "violence" in the movie was some bombs which exploded and it didn't show anyone get maimed or die.

    But there was this truly "ominous" feeling of impending terror in the movie (fascism, communism, and the threat of military oppression) that makes your blood turn to ice in fear.

    That's when I realized,, David Byron, that whatever the "America" you describe has done and however truly monstrous its foreign policy may have been, the actual experience of living here in America has been the equivalent of living in heaven (with the exception of what happened to black people which I would be the last person to ever minimize.)

    Other than that, it's been paradise, simply put, compared to what has gone on in almost every other country in the world.

    Ever since the Civil War we have never even had a war fought here on our soil.

    And because of the Constitution, which you say you don't like, we have experienced the greatest freedom that any nation has ever known.

    You seem not to like our "system" of government. But the "system" has not been the problem. It's been the people in Government who have deviated from that system.

    I concluded that the reason I am so upset about everything that has been happening lately here in America boils down to "the higher they climb, the harder they fall."

    I always knew that the luckiest two things that ever happened to me were being born healthy and being born in the United States.

    It's because this has been, on balance, such a uniquely wonderful place to live that the thought that everything is changing now and we are moving towards what I call a type of fascism is so unbelievably tragic and scary.

    I don't agree with Janis Joplin that freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

    It's the opposite. Freedom is a word which means you have everything left to lose.

    I think the Day Without Patriots is a terrific idea and if it happens, I definitely plan to participate.

    EWO is incapable of seeing this trend or faction go back as far as it actually does in this country. It's been around since long before 1980.

    Boy, are you ever wrong about that statement. You should only know.

    But as to specifically what I said, I wasn't implying that there haven't been any of this breed of "elephant" in the White House before 1980 because there certainly have been. Many.

    But when those elephants were in the White House, they weren't the "elephant in the room" in the same sense George H.W.Bush was. He was the first. Longest lasting too, because he's been there for over 25 years now.

    I know that sounds cryptic, but I'll just have to leave it at that.

    PS. If Hayden gets confirmed, it will be one of the darkest days in this country's history because it will be very strong evidence that it's not going to be possible for anyone to save this country.

    Probably there'll be no turning back at that point.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous7:52 AM

    You've lost me completely.

    Do you see any good in anything about the US?



    Hell ya! Freedumb! And Paris Hilton and video cams! And Britknee Spears!

    ReplyDelete
  137. Anonymous8:04 AM

    Davidbyron

    Still not quite sure how to respond. I get the feeling you're young (20's?). If not, let me know. Assuming you are, I would say you need to look before you leap.


    Young? Try "not an American". And his ideas and opinions are shared by most of the world. Deal with it, patriot. As far as preaching to choirs goes, preaching never changes minds, it only reinforces opinions already held. The change always comes from a personal epiphany. You mention "bullies on the right" or on the left. You don't change a bully's mind by preaching to him. You change a bully's mind by giving him his own personal epiphany in the form of a serious beating.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Anonymous8:14 AM

    EWO --I don't agree with Janis Joplin that freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

    It's the opposite. Freedom is a word which means you have everything left to lose.



    Hahaha! What kind of self-styled "mystic" are you? The pompous and self-important kind? You don't have kids of your own, do you? That, in and of itself, don't make you a mystic. Just celibate, or something.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Anonymous8:34 AM

    Self-Evident Truths


    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. That, to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That, when any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it."

    The newly united colonies had assumed "among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and Nature's God entitle them," Jefferson wrote. The declaration was being made, he said, because "a decent respect for the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."


    There were few ideas in the declaration (outside of the long list of wrongs committed by the Crown) that did not owe more than a little to Franklin's and Jefferson's views of American Indian societies. In drawing sanction for independence from the laws of nature, Jefferson was also drawing from the peoples beyond the frontiers of the new nation who lived in what late eighteenth-century Enlightenment thinkers believed to be a state of nature. The "pursuit of happiness" and the "consent of the governed" were exemplified in Indian polities to which Jefferson (like Franklin) often referred in his writings. The Indian in Jefferson's mind (as in Franklin's) served as a metaphor for liberty.


    Jefferson wrote to Edward Carrington January 16, 1787:

    "The way to prevent these irregular interpositions of the people is to give them full information of their affairs thro' the public papers, and to contrive that those papers should penetrate the whole mass of the people. The basis of our government being the opinion of the people, our very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. . . . I am convinced that those societies [as the Indians] which live without government enjoy in their general mass an infinitely greater degree of happiness than those who live under European governments."

    Echoing Franklin's earlier comment, Jefferson looked across the frontier and found societies where social cohesion was provided by consensus instead of by the governmental apparatus used to maintain control in Europe. Among the Indians, wrote Jefferson, "Public opinion is in the place of law, and restrains morals as powerfully as laws ever did anywhere." The contrast to Europe was obvious: "Under presence of governing, they have divided their nations into two classes, wolves and sheep. I do not exaggerate. This is a true picture of Europe." Returning to America, Jefferson concluded: "Cherish therefore the spirit of our people, and keep alive their attention." To Jefferson, public opinion among the Indians was an important reason for their lack of oppressive government, as well as the egalitarian distribution of property on which Franklin had earlier remarked. Jefferson believed that without the people looking over the shoulder of their leaders, "You and I, the Congress, judges and governors shall all become wolves." The "general prey of the rich on the poor" could be prevented by a vigilant public.

    Jefferson believed that freedom to exercise restraint on their leaders, and an egalitarian distribution of property secured for Indians in general a greater degree of happiness than that to be found among the superintended sheep at the bottom of European class structures. Jefferson thought a great deal of "happiness," a word which in the eighteenth century carried connotations of a sense of personal and societal security and well-being that it has since lost. Jefferson thought enough of happiness to make its pursuit a natural right, along with life and liberty. In so doing, he dropped "property," the third member of the natural rights trilogy generally used by followers of John Locke.

    Jefferson's writings made it evident that he, like Franklin, saw accumulation of property beyond that needed to satisfy one's natural requirements as an impediment to liberty. To place "property" in the same trilogy with life and liberty, against the backdrop of Jefferson's views regarding the social nature of property, would have been a contradiction, Jefferson composed some of his most trenchant rhetoric in opposition to the erection of a European-like aristocracy on American soil. To Jefferson, the pursuit of happiness appears to have involved neither the accumulation of property beyond basic need, nor the sheer pursuit of mirth. It meant freedom from tyranny, and from want, things not much in abundance in the Europe from which many of Jefferson's countrymen had so recently fled. Jefferson's writings often characterized Europe as a place from which to escape -- a corrupt place, where wolves consumed sheep regularly, and any uncalled for bleating by the sheep was answered with a firm blow to the head.


    Both Jefferson and Franklin would answer Ayn Rand's bleating with a firm blow to the head in the interest of the "pursuit of happiness".

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous8:42 AM

    PHD9 said:

    I've convinced myself that the human religious impulse has evolved specifically to strengthen our in-group bonds and to enable us to wage war. I'm sure that there's nothing more reassuring, if you're going into battle (or worse yet a suicide mission) than knowing that the Creator of the Universe has got your back.

    A lot of wars have been fought in the name of one religion or another. From my personal experience though there was never a whole lot of praying in Viet Nam. It wasn't that we depended on knowing that the Creator of the Universe had our back but we depended on having each others back.


    "I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine how, since the Universe has only one Creator, did we get split up into competing teams."

    I also have serious doubts as to whether there is only one creator. According to the Bible God created Adam and then Eve from his rib. They subsequently had two children, both boys, Cain and Able. Following the theory that there is only one God don't you have to ask where all the rest of the people on the planet came from? Then if you follow the story a little longer Cain killed Able and was banished from the garden. He subsequently took a wife from the land of Nod. Where did the people in the land of Nod come from if there was only one creator and he created Adam and Eve?

    Advance to the story about the tower of Babel. It was created so that we would be separated "lest they all speak the same language and become Gods the same as us" to paraphrase. Notice the term "us" not "me". Guess it's a good thing God doesn't talk to him/herself but the plural does indicate more than one God.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Anonymous10:50 AM

    I choose to remain anonymous until this threat to our way of life is defeated and expunged forever. It's a symbolic gesture, but I choose to make it. If Glenn is going to ban someone from this site, and I hope he does not,(as difficult as it is, I am against that too), let him ban the lying propagandists who are the true threat to our American ideals, freedoms and way of life. They know who they are. We all do. The non-patriots.

    Another Fraud on Iran: No Legislation on Dress of Religious Minorities

    Maurice Motamed, the representative of the Iranian Jewish community in Iran's parliament, has strongly denied the rumors started by Canada's National Post that the Iranian legislature has passed a law requiring members of religious communities to wear identifying badges.

    The report was also denied on Montreal radio by Meir Javedanfar, Middle East Analyst and the Director for the Middle East Economic and Political Analysis Company.

    The National Post is owned by Conrad Black and is not a repository of expertise about Iran. it is typical of black psychological operations campaigns that they begin with a plant in an obscure newspaper that is then picked up by the mainstream press. Once the Jerusalem Post picks it up, then reporters can source it there, even though the Post has done no original reporting and has just depended on the National Post article, which is extremely vague in its own sourcing (to "human rights groups").

    The actual legislation passed by the Iranian parliament regulates women's fashion, and urges the establishment of a national fashion house that would make Islamically appropriate clothing. There is a vogue for "Islamic chic" among many middle class Iranian women that involves, for instance, wearing expensive boots that cover the legs and so, it is argued, are permitted under Iranian law. The scruffy, puritanical Ahmadinejad and his backers among the hardliners in parliament are waging a new and probably doomed struggle against the young Iranian fashionistas. (The Khomeinists give the phrase "fashion police" a whole new meaning).

    There is nothing in this legislation that prescribes a dress code or badges for Iranian religious minorities, and Maurice Motamed was present during its drafting and says nothing like that was even discussed.

    The whole thing is a steaming crock.

    In fact, Iranian Jewish expatriates themselves have come out against a bombing campaign by the US or Israel against Iran. There are still tens of thousands of Jews in Iran, and expatriate Iranian Jews most often identify as Iranians and express Iranian patriotism. I was in Los Angeles when tens of thousands of Iranians immigrated, fleeing the Khomeini regime. I still remember Jewish Iranian families who suffered a year or two in what they thought of as the sterile social atmosphere of LA, and who shrugged and moved right back to Iran, where they said they felt more comfortable.

    This affair is similar to the attribution to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of the statement that "Israel must be wiped off the map." No such idiom exists in Persian, and Ahmadinejad actually just quoted an old speech of Khomeini in which he said "The occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time." Of course Ahamdinejad does wish Israel would disappear, but he is not commander of the armed forces and could not attack it even if he wanted to, which he denies.

    I had a very disturbing short email correspondence with a reporter of a major national newspaper who used the inaccurate "wiped off the face of the map" quote. When challenged, he said it was "carried by the news wires and is well known" or words to that effect. I pointed out that the "quote" was attributed to a specific speech and that the statement was inaccurately translated. When challenged further he alleged that his trusted translator in Tehran affirmed that Ahmadinejad had said the phrase. When that was challenged, he reported that the translator said that anyway he had said something like it. When I pointed out that the translator was either lying or lazy, the reporter took offense that I had insulted a trusted colleague! I conclude that this reporter is attached to the phrase. He complained about being challenged by "bloggers" and said he was tempted to stop reading "blogs."

    So this is how we got mire in the Iraq morass. Gullible and frankly lazy and very possibly highly biased reporters on the staffs of the newspapers in Washington DC and New York. And they criticize bloggers.

    On how Iran is not actually any sort of military threat to Israel, see the op-ed at the Star Ledger by Thomas Lippman and myself. Lippman is a veteran Washington Post correspondent who covered the Iraq War.

    ReplyDelete
  142. Anonymous11:46 AM

    davidbyron, I commend you for your posts in this comment thread. I have given up on this blog (which I had previously considered one of the only places to find good political discussion) after seeing the responses to what you have said. Take something like this for example:
    "That's when I realized,, David Byron, that whatever the "America" you describe has done and however truly monstrous its foreign policy may have been, the actual experience of living here in America has been the equivalent of living in heaven (with the exception of what happened to black people which I would be the last person to ever minimize.)"

    How can anyone possibly learn the history of our country (not just the twentieth century) and then profess to actually support our country or government or whatever abstract you want to put on these murdering monsters? Read Howard Zinn's People's History, then try some Parenti and Chomsky.

    I thought at least some people here were informed of so-called "alternative history" (or rather the history that wasn't written by the victors) at least to the extent of understanding the implications and repercussions of our tremendously evil foreign policy, even if limited just to the past fifty years or so.

    By the way: if I were you, I'd approach conversation on these issues in a way that they are not framed by comparisons to Nazi Germany or anything like that. It's a trap. Placing issues within easily accessed and pre-established frameworks helps eliminate logical thinking on a variety of issues. Please don't play along.

    Guess I'll just stick to reading Glenn's main posts from now on, my man Greenwald hasn't let me down on this "wiretap" (snicker) scandal yet.

    ReplyDelete
  143. Anonymous11:55 AM

    glenn says:
    The mail cases are completely different from the telephone cases becasue mail is physically stopped at the border and can be searched as part of the long-standing border search doctrine. To say that there are no cases making clear that telephones aren't subject to the mail doctrine is idiotic. One would not expect to find any such cases because, at least to my knowledge, nobody has ever claimed that the Border exception applies to international calls. Every time courts have spoken to the 4th Amendment requirement for telephone calls they have made clear that Americans are entitled not to have their calls intercepted unless the Government has a warrant - go read Katz and Keith and you will see how frivolous this claim is.

    I think that Barts point is actually too narrow. As I understand it, border search doctrine includes not only mail but
    * packages
    * vehicles
    * luggage
    * clothes worn
    * strip searches
    * cavity searches, all without warrants, going in or out, of the US.

    To say that mail cases are different because mail is physically stopped is silly. Communication is communication. International calls are communication.

    I can understand the distinction between international and purely domestic calls, but I'd like to hear the rationale behind (no pun intended) intercepted international phone calls being more intrusive than a cavity search.

    ReplyDelete
  144. Anonymous11:56 AM

    Another winner:
    "And while we've been complicit in permitting it, or even assisting it, the Vietnam War was the last time we came close to producing genocidal impacts, and even then, genocide was not our intent. For all our faults, our genocidal phase seems to have ended with the near extermination of Native American cultures."

    You get the grand prize for naivete in the field of American foreign policy and CIA operations in the twentieth century. Here's your ribbon.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Anonymous12:15 PM

    "To say that mail cases are different because mail is physically stopped is silly. Communication is communication. International calls are communication."
    Not trying to have a real legal debate as I am not qualified to do so, but this doesn't make sense. Checking international mail as it comes into our country is a physical search for a reason. They are hoping to find drugs or anthrax or whatever else. I would assume that they aren't supposed to be looking for what the letters say, especially considering the other types of searches you listed. Again, border searches are physical for a reason. They aren't a blanket permission slip to intercept communications, and have absolutely NOTHING to do with this fiasco.

    Not to mention that the Supreme Court case cited was pre-FISA! Haha...

    davidbyron: after going back and reading your answer to Glenn's question I must say that I strongly disagree with your position of two wrongs making a right (as it seems to me, despite your disowning of the idea). Of course the US carries a humongous moral responsibility regarding 9/11 (and if you believe what I do, much more concrete responsibility as well - ooh everyone laugh at me now for being so stupid) but that doesn't make murder "not wrong". That seems to me to be quite a strange viewpoint. I agree with you on most everything else though.

    ReplyDelete
  146. I challenged people who disagree with my characterisations of America to come up with a country that is more war like than America.

    I'm afraid I can't disagree with you on that point, but I would direct you to yesterday's thread, where we discussing individual vs collective responsibilty. Most of the people here (with ~5 noteworthy exceptions) do not consider themselves "warlike". (The other 5 are quite unapologetic). That's why when you condemn "America" with such a broad brush you piss people off.

    ReplyDelete
  147. Anonymous1:06 PM

    Ender writes: I had to do some research on this subject a few months ago and though I never found a number the Polish "intelligentsia" was a major target of the Nazi cleansing machine. Many of them were Catholics.

    Stalin did it for them.

    On March 5, 1940, Joseph Stalin ordered the execution of approximately 25,000 Polish officers, businessmen, intellectuals etc. in what is collectively known as the Katyn Forest massacre. A copy of Stalin's order to shoot them was located in the archives of the former Society Union; Stalin felt this sector of Polish society was "counter-revolutionary" and an impediment to his forcing Stalinism on Poland, so he had it exterminated.

    For decades left-of-center historians had insisted these murders were undertaken by Nazis, and those (like Polish-American societies) who argued that Stalin had committed them were ridiculed and dismissed. FDR took pains to suppress the truth, which would have mucked up our alliance with Stalin.

    Stalin killed the Polish intellectual and upper-class, which Gorbachev admitted after an investigation he ordered in 1990 made it clear that the KGB, not Nazis, carried out this
    mass murder.

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous1:08 PM

    Just a handful of quotes from a guy you will never see on TV in America, but who was a favorite thinker and writer of Pat Tillman's.


    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume.

    American society is now remarkably atomized. Political organizations have collapsed. In fact, it seems like even bowling leagues are collapsing. The left has a lot to answer for here. There's been a drift toward very fragmenting tendencies among left groups, toward this sort of identity politics.

    Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media.

    As soon as questions of will or decision or reason or choice of action arise, human science is at a loss.

    Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever.

    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

    Education must provide the opportunities for self-fulfillment; it can at best provide a rich and challenging environment for the individual to explore, in his own way.

    Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.

    Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it.

    I have often thought that if a rational Fascist dictatorship were to exist, then it would choose the American system.

    If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged.

    If we choose, we can live in a world of comforting illusion.
    Noam Chomsky

    If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.

    In this possibly terminal phase of human existence, democracy and freedom are more than just ideals to be valued - they may be essential to survival.

    Language is a process of free creation; its laws and principles are fixed, but the manner in which the principles of generation are used is free and infinitely varied. Even the interpretation and use of words involves a process of free creation.

    Personally, I'm in favor of democracy, which means that the central institutions of society have to be under popular control. Now, under capitalism, we can't have democracy by definition. Capitalism is a system in which the central institutions of society are in principle under autocratic control.

    Predatory capitalism created a complex industrial system and an advanced technology; it permitted a considerable extension of democratic practice and fostered certain liberal values, but within limits that are now being pressed and must be overcome. It is not a fit system for the mid-twentieth century.

    Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.

    Resistance is feasible even for those who are not heroes by nature, and it is an obligation, I believe, for those who fear the consequences and detest the reality of the attempt to impose American hegemony.

    Sports plays a societal role in engendering jingoist and chauvinist attitudes. They're designed to organize a community to be committed to their gladiators.

    States are not moral agents, people are, and can impose moral standards on powerful institutions.

    The Bible is one of the most genocidal books in history.

    The intellectual tradition is one of servility to power, and if I didn't betray it I'd be ashamed of myself.

    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all the people.

    The only justification for repressive institutions is material and cultural deficit. But such institutions, at certain stages of history, perpetuate and produce such a deficit, and even threaten human survival.

    The principle that human nature, in its psychological aspects, is nothing more than a product of history and given social relations removes all barriers to coercion and manipulation by the powerful.

    The United States is unusual among the industrial democracies in the rigidity of the system of ideological control - "indoctrination," we might say - exercised through the mass media.

    To some degree it matters who's in office, but it matters more how much pressure they're under from the public.

    Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while maintaining privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists.

    We can, for example, be fairly confident that either there will be a world without war or there won't be a world - at least, a world inhabited by creatures other than bacteria and beetles, with some scattering of others.

    You never need an argument against the use of violence, you need an argument for it.


    Can you figure out why he is public enemy # 1 of the reich wing?

    ReplyDelete
  149. Capitalism is a system in which the central institutions of society are in principle under autocratic control As in Time/Warner Disney GE and all the others responsible for 24/7 right wing spin.

    ReplyDelete
  150. that Americans ought to irrationally identify with the state to the point of feeling they are to blame for actions taken by others in opposition to their own will

    Your talking out both sides of your mouth. If the object of the game is to stop individual soldiers from harming individual foriegners then we'd better get some modicum of control over this "state" of which you speak. To do anything else is to throw up your hands and admit defeat.

    ReplyDelete
  151. Anonymous1:30 PM

    davidbyron

    I challenged people who disagree with my characterisations of America to come up with a country that is more war like than America. Naturally an impossible challenge since I stated the truth in characterising America as far and away the most war like.


    bart

    I challenged people here to find me a single example where Bush has lied, and nobody could do it. I stated the truth that George Bush has never lied, and nobody here could show me a single instance where he had.


    Same shit, different end.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Anonymous1:50 PM

    Shorter Hypatia: The Nazi's weren't so bad. Commies are the ultimate evil!

    Right. If one insists on upholding certain historical truths about the murderous tyrant Joseph Stalin -- truths that were too long denied or suppressed -- one must think Nazis were not so bad. (eyes rolling)

    I deeply believe it is only moral to accurately identify the killers of those 25,000 Polish people, and that truth is its own justification. Denying that truth is not morally distinct from Holocaust denial.

    ReplyDelete
  153. Glenn Greenwald said...

    Bart: A person has a privacy interest for criminal investigation purposes in both mail and telephone calls within the United States which would require search warrants. However, the courts have held that this privacy interest is lost when that mail crosses the border. I am not aware of any case law which grants telephone calls or email any more protection than postal mail. Therefore, what applies to mail communications very arguably applies to electronic communications.

    Glenn: This argument is completely dishonest.


    Starting off with name calling usually means tap dancing and not law will follow...

    The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the 4th Amendment prohibits the Government from eavesdropping on an American citizen's telephone call without a warrant.

    US mail enjoys the same privacy right until it crosses the border. Thus, my question to you as to why telecommunications would enjoy a higher level of protection than does the US mail.

    YOU are the one who wants to claim a huge exception to that doctrine - that it does not apply to calls where the American is speaking to someone physically in another country.

    Sorry, I am citing Supreme Court and 4th Circuit precedent to make my argument. The Supreme Court, not myself, holds that postal mail crossing the border has no expectation of privacy. The 4th Circuit holds that data on computers which cross the border has no expectation of privacy.

    Once again, why should telecommunications like email enjoy any more expectation of privacy than postal snail mail or computer data on a hard drive???

    That is a theory that exists only on the furthest ideological fringes, and is a creation from last week. Not even the administration has argued this. And no court has even hinted that it is accurate. And as I said, I'd be willing to bet lots of money that a small amount of reserach will reveal cases where warrants were held necessary for international calls, but NONE that said the 4th amendment does not apply to such calls.

    OK, then feel free to provide me with this case law. If you spent the few minutes doing research instead of wasting the time with this bloviation, maybe we would have an answer to my legal question.

    ReplyDelete
  154. Anonymous3:14 PM

    Hypatia...Right. If one insists on upholding certain historical truths about the murderous tyrant Joseph Stalin -- truths that were too long denied or suppressed -- one must think Nazis were not so bad. (eyes rolling)



    The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, also known as the Hitler-Stalin Pact or Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact or Nazi-Soviet Pact and formally known as the Treaty of Nonaggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, was a non-aggression treaty between the German Third Reich and the Soviet Union.

    Although officially labeled a "non-aggression treaty", the pact included a secret protocol, in which the independent countries of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Romania were divided into spheres of interest of the parties. The secret protocol explicitly assumed "territorial and political rearrangements" in the areas of these countries. Subsequently all the mentioned countries were invaded, occupied or forced to cede part of their territory by either the Soviet Union, Germany, or both.


    Then one must do the same with respect to truths long repressed about the murderous machinations behind the genocide in Indonesia and Vietnam, perpetrated by the Americans and other western powers, right Hypatia? The difference here, and the one that David Byron is making, I think, is that we are supposed to be democracies, which as george Bush is fond of saying, do not make war on their neighbors, while Germany and Stalinist Russia were clearly totalitarian states, despite any pretensions to the contrary in Germany. A communist or socialist economic system democratically chosen by a majority of a given population is wiped out by whom, Hypatia? If they hadn't been brown peoples...

    Over a million Indonesians accused of being members or supporters of PKI were killed in riots and witch hunts. Lists of suspected communists were supposedly supplied to the Indonesian military by the CIA. A CIA study of the events in Indonesia assessed that "In terms of the numbers killed the anti-PKI massacres in Indonesia rank as one of the worst mass murders of the 20th century..." [1].

    It must also be noted that the CIA was not the only party to the issue, and there was also British involvement in the events.

    ReplyDelete
  155. cfaller96,

    Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the desire to defend the 4th Amendment. However the government does have a much larger responsibility to defend the nation itself against foreign attacks.

    I happen to agree with Bart. As far as I am concerned, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy for international calls made between a US person and another person outside the US, meaning that FISA warrants are not required.

    For example, let's say that the NSA has the ability to tap fiber optic data lines crossing the ocean floor in international waters off the coast of the US. Would they need a FISA warrant for that even though they are operating outside the borders of the US?

    ReplyDelete
  156. Anonymous3:19 PM

    paul rosenberg: A Day Without A Patriot Sounds like an excellent idea to me. I'll do a diary about it at My Left Wing tomorrow morning. With a link to your new blog, of course.

    Thanks Paul. See my response to your posting at the other blog.

    ReplyDelete
  157. Anonymous3:21 PM

    Long suppressed. Still not ackowledged or talked about.


    Ex-agents say CIA compiled death lists for Indonesians

    After 25 years, Americans speak of their role in exterminating Communist Party

    by Kathy Kadane, States News Service, 1990



    "...in four months, five times as many people died in Indonesia as in
    Vietnam in twelve years."

    -- Bertrand Russell, 1966

    ReplyDelete
  158. Anonymous3:30 PM

    The FLY said...
    cfaller96,

    Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the desire to defend the 4th Amendment. However the government does have a much larger responsibility to defend the nation itself against foreign attacks.


    Great point from a poster at Will Bunch's site.

    Let me get this straight -- because less than 5,000 people died in the past 20 years from domestic and international terrorism I am supposed to give up all my rights and consent to the government having full access to all my records?

    Yet when illegally obtained guns kill 5,000 a month in the United States we can't even have proper gun registration and tracking because it would infringe on gun owner's rights.


    What say you to that? And I am not fond of the idea of a federal ban on all firearms, even though the SCOTUS has never agreed with the position that the second amendmentgaurantees any of us the right to private ownership of guns.

    ReplyDelete
  159. Anonymous3:36 PM

    Damn liberal media...


    How the NRA Rewrote the Constitution

    On Second Amendment, Reporters Side With Gun Lobby Against Supreme Court


    Gun Control, the NRA and the Second Amendment


    You just watch what the fascists you help put on the SCOTUS do in the years to come. Better bury your guns now, sucker.

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous3:47 PM

    I bet John Lott is one of your favorite authors. Too bad he's a discredited and shameless fraud. The conservative think tanks are replete with this kind of charlatan and people like you just lap it up. Do you know what a proboscis is? You should since this is the appendage you use to lap this shit up.

    ReplyDelete
  161. 215 comments. Wow "Gen. Hayden admits the Administration knew it was violating FISA"

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous6:19 PM

    james: You write, in response to a comment of mine:

    How can anyone possibly learn the history of our country (not just the twentieth century) and then profess to actually support our country or government or whatever abstract you want to put on these murdering monsters?

    I am not defending any murdering monsters and I am not defending a single act of immorality including on the part of "America".

    As I do not suscribe to the doctrine that the end justifies the means, I don't see any reason for anyone to ever have to act immorally.

    Self-defense is not immoral and that is the only instance in which the the use of force is justified.

    By extension, a person is morally permitted, not compelled, if the family next door is about to all be killed by someone who breaks into their house, to intervene on behalf of that family and use force against those who are about to initiate force against them.

    A person who intervenes to save the life of a relative or a neighbor is not acting morally if he does so for a secondary motivation, like stealing their television once he has entered their house on the false premise that he entered only to save them.

    It is especially "unsettling" if he decides to kill a few of those family members himself while attempting to get away with the television.

    I might point out it is people like David Byron who created the "murdering monsters" in the first place.

    I was defending the Constitution and I continue to do so especially the Fourth Amendment.

    As instructions manuels go, it's the best that has ever been written and it was written to protect the freedoms of Americans against their government primarily, as I see it.

    The result of creating a country that is based on the concept of individual freedom is that up until recently, the vast majority of American have been able to live in a climate free of fear of their own government.

    It's the fear of marching boots carrying rifles, whether those are your own government's boots or those of a foreign nation or those of a police force or any faction which seeks to use force to repress and control others that is so deadly.

    There has always been at least a claim to justice in this country even if justice itself has not been imperfectly executed.

    That has hardly been true throughout history for the vast majority of mankind.

    I'm not talking about foreign policy. In fact, I am essentially an isolationist. Laissez-faire means leave everyone alone who doesn't bother you first.

    However heinous our foreign policy has been or not been, we, as a nation, made a real attempt to have freedom at home. I think we achieved that to a great extent which is why this has been such a noble experiment.

    Now we are rapidly losing that.

    So I would blame people like David Byron the most probably.

    He cannot stand the concept of laissez-faire.

    Then he howls in protest when someone fails to leave someone else alone when he hasn't first given them permission to interfere with another's freedom.

    I know human nature is problamatic, to say the least. For that reason and others governments should be given very little power.
    The less power they have, the less damage they will do.

    David Byron thinks governments can be "nice guys" and is naive enough to complain that after they get the power they then act like murdering monsters?

    Who funds all these immoral wars anyway? Who wants to raise taxes and fund more of them? Socialists think if taxes are raised they are going to be spent on facilites for handicapped people?

    Socialists want to create a Frankenstein and then go boo hoo when he starts acting like the monster that he is by nature.

    And now, since it was recently his birthday, I paste a few quotes from Malcolm X.

    Who really assasinated him anyway? Do any of you know?

    "You can’t drive a knife into a man’s back nine inches, pull it out six inches, and call it progress."
    .....
    "You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it."

    "Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

    The above is not my style because I am a non-violent person by nature. I cannot say I disagree with the thinking behind that statement, however, as it is the essence of laissez-faire.

    "You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom."

    The Fourth Amendment.

    "We want freedom by any means necessary. We want justice by any means necessary. We want equality by any means necessary."

    Alas, here's where Malcolm X went wrong. He was right on the first two sentences, but he should have written "equality under the law" in the third. Fate deals different people different cards. Allowing them to play those cards freely is the proper role of a government in a free society.

    Private citizens on their own can step in to even out the inequities of nature and circumstance. But most of the people who spend their time arguing in favor of socialism never seem to take the time to do so or even have that inclination.

    And the less inclination they themselves have, the more forcefully they attempt to bully others into doing so.

    On his religion:

    "I am a Muslim, because it's a religion that teaches you an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. It teaches you to respect everybody, and treat everybody right. But it also teaches you if someone steps on your toe, chop off their foot.

    As for the above statement by Malcolm X, if that were really all Islam is about, that would be a rational philosophical position: deterrence in the service of laissez-faire.

    But no religion is really about philosophy as can be best seen when looking at the actions of so many of the " true believers."

    ReplyDelete
  163. Anonymous7:07 PM

    "James,
    Most of the folks here are good people. They are well educated, well read and know of the many attrocities for which America is responsible.

    And yet Paul "forgot" about the Iraq genocide.

    I'm not trying to be hostile, but it needs to be said. And not to Bart."

    Well, I would point people to many many more atrocities such as Reagan's devastation of South America via death squad, secret bombing of Cambodia, Vietnam... There's so many. Not to mention the huge masses of scandals and bad things that go down the "memory hole". Remember that child sex orgy scandal that went to the top of the Republican party in the late 80s? Didn't think so. I don't believe in the smoke and mirrors game of our political system any more. Everyone with a brain knew the Iraq war was bullshit, the evidence was right there in front of your face. But the Democrats voted for the war as well as the Republicans. Fuck them all. There is no positive result. I don't consider it defeatism in the slightest to think this way, I would look to inform people as much as I can instead.

    "We are the most powerful country in the world right now. Like all powers, we abuse it. Any country that has the biggest army will abuse it in some ways. All men are equally susceptible to corruption by power. If the USSR had nuked America and taken over the world, do you really think they'd have been less abusive than America? I don't care who takes over the world, if the Dutch suddenly had the biggest military, we'd all be suffering their whimsical abuse of power. But fortunately for the whole world, America is constrained by its own nature as a reprsentative democracy to at least pretend to respect the law. This keeps us from being able to be as abusive as we would be without such a system of govt."

    This is such a crock of shit. Of course nothing is inherently wrong with America, it's just an abstract idea. It's the fucked up people at the top levels of power that make it this way, and there is always an alternative. To actually think that the world must have wars and torture and suffering is completely absurd.

    I can't blame everything wrong in the world on "America" because it is, as I said, an abstract idea. The international corporations and banks (power elite) have global power.

    ReplyDelete
  164. Anonymous8:05 PM

    David Byron...You know, you're not like the others are you? You're a little weird.

    Eccentric. Hehe.

    ReplyDelete
  165. Anonymous8:17 PM

    David Byron...So why is "socialism" a bad word around here anyway? All the best countries are socilaist these days.
    =================================

    You know, you're not like the others are you? You're a little weird.


    This is America. Socialism is a dirty word here by design, and to everyone's detriment. Call it democratic socialism or social democracy. A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. And I forgot to mention, EWO is a Randian. You get it now?

    ReplyDelete
  166. Anonymous8:57 PM

    "I might point out it is people like David Byron who created the "murdering monsters" in the first place."

    Nope.

    "However heinous our foreign policy has been or not been, we, as a nation, made a real attempt to have freedom at home. I think we achieved that to a great extent which is why this has been such a noble experiment."

    What an excuse.

    "David Byron thinks governments can be "nice guys" and is naive enough to complain that after they get the power they then act like murdering monsters?"

    I'm not going to go back and check his posts but I don't remember him ever saying that our government could be "nice guys". For one, the world is too complicated for the government to be all good (of course). Wars and military actions and riots will still happen, just not ones purposely incited and caused by our CIA. We're not talking about everybody hugging and singing "We Are The World", we're talking about ending the purposely deceitful and murderous practices ingrained into the US national identity (that most people don't even realize is there). That's not too much to ask, and if you really think the world is naturally such a tumultuous place that things have to be this way, then you are gullible.

    What is this argument even about? If we all know what America has been responsible for (as everyone participating in this seems to claim) throughout it's short history, then there should be no problem making statements such as David's. I don't agree with some of his approach but he is absolutely right. And to the people thinking that he would say these things because he doesn't live in the US: I've lived here all my life and I feel exactly the same.

    The noble experiment is a crock of shit. Why are we to believe that our government has suddenly morphed into a werewolf and wants to fuck us over now? We've fought every step of the way for all of our rights, and if they had it their way we'd virtually be in slavery to corporations. Well, more so anyway.

    This is what being a "patriot" is really about. If you want to help your country you must criticize it to the extent necessary based on the circumstances. If mass suffering and slaughter is not an urgent enough circumstance to declare that America is evil and try to change it, then what is? Accusing America of evil obviously is equivalent to accusing the government, not the people. They do all sorts of shady things that we certainly don't want and didn't vote for. So, as David has said, why identify yourself so strongly with such an abstract entity, especially one that represents (at least) just as much evil as good?

    ReplyDelete
  167. JaO said...

    BTW, I still know of no case directly addressing the question of whether there is an "expectation of privacy" in international telephone calls. However, there is one lower-court case (never appealed AFAIK) that addressed the issue where calls of a U.S. citizen living abroad, suspected as an Al Qaeda agent, was surveilled. The U.S. citizen defendant known as El-Hage lived in Kenya.

    The case, UNITED STATES of America v Usama BIN LADEN, involved defendants charged with bombing U.S. embassies in East Africa....As part of that case, the U.S. District Court considered the privacy rights of El-Hage's cellphones and landlines in Kenya. On that particular question, "The Court finds that El-Hage had a reasonable expectation of privacy in his home and cellular phones and the Government should have obtained approval from either the President or the Attorney General before undertaking the electronic surveillance on those phone lines in August 1996."


    Thanks for the case link.

    This district court trial judge decided as a matter of first impression that a US citizen living overseas has 4th Amendment protections against search and seizure. As you noted, there are no international calls crossing the US border involved in this case.

    The judge only cited in passing the case of Reid v. Covert, 354 U.S. 1 (1957), which simply held that the UCMJ may not be applied to the trial of a civilian military dependent living overseas and that the civilian enjoyed the trial rights provided by the 5th and 6th Amendments. The Reid court was not addressing the 4th Amendment in general or whether international calls have a reasonable expectation of privacy in particular. Indeed, this case predated the creation of the reasonable expectation of privacy standard.

    ReplyDelete
  168. Anonymous4:04 AM

    Bart was for a brief time the only troll here worthy of a response. Was. And only because it was polite to attempt dialogue. It would now be impolite to do anything but ignore him and ignoring him and those like him is dangerous vicious and violent ostracizing and marginalizing is the impolite but proper response from now on. If you aren't up to it, ignore him.

    bart said...
    We were discussing the definition of fascism and I noted how Islamic fascists replaced religion for race...

    Iran eyes badges for Jews
    Law would require non-Muslim insignia

    Chris Wattie
    National Post

    Friday, May 19, 2006

    Human rights groups are raising alarms over a new law passed by the Iranian parliament that would require the country's Jews and Christians to wear coloured badges to identify them and other religious minorities as non-Muslims

    > http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=11fbf4a8-282a-4d18-954f-546709b1240f&k=32073


    Everyone recognized this for what it was the minute they saw it. Even Bart knew, yet he tried to sell it here. He has no respect for the people here, or anywhere, and deserves none in return.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Anonymous said...

    bart said: We were discussing the definition of fascism and I noted how Islamic fascists replaced religion for race...

    Iran eyes badges for Jews
    Law would require non-Muslim insignia

    Chris Wattie
    National Post

    Friday, May 19, 2006

    Human rights groups are raising alarms over a new law passed by the Iranian parliament that would require the country's Jews and Christians to wear coloured badges to identify them and other religious minorities as non-Muslims

    > http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=11fbf4a8-282a-4d18-954f-546709b1240f&k=32073

    Everyone recognized this for what it was the minute they saw it.


    You mean that your first thought was how to defend the Mulluhs in Iran.

    Even Bart knew, yet he tried to sell it here. He has no respect for the people here, or anywhere, and deserves none in return.

    :::heh:::

    1) Exactly how is my post above "selling the story." I posted a press story.

    2) The nature of this bill appears to be very much in dispute as no one seems to have actually read it.

    3) The practice allegedly in this bill is hardly far fetched. Making followers of non Islamic religions is an old practice and one which was actively enforced by the Islamic fascist Taliban in Afghanistan.

    4) Who knows? It could all be a hoax. But pardon me for not taking much of anything the Iranian regime says at face value after the IAEA has found Iran lying continuously about its nuclear prorgam and recently found near or full weapons grade enriched uranium on Iranian equipment.

    Eugene Volokh posted the latest from the Canadian press a couple days ago.

    Eugene Volokh, May 19, 2006 at 11:10pm

    More on Iranian Dress Code?

    The Canadian Press agency reports that Iranian legislators are denying the allegations that a new bill would require Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians in Iran to wear special insignia:

    Iranian politicians -- including [Morris Motamed,] a Jewish legislator in Tehran -- were infuriated by the Post report, which they called false.

    "Such a plan has never been proposed or discussed in parliament," Motamed told the Associated Press.

    "Such news, which appeared abroad, is an insult to religious minorities here."

    Another Iranian legislator said the newspaper has distorted a bill that he presented to parliament, which calls for more conservative clothing for Muslims.

    "It's a sheer lie. The rumours about this are worthless," Emad Afroogh said.

    Afroogh's bill seeks to make women dress more traditionally and avoid Western fashions. Minority religious labels have nothing to do with it, he said.

    "The bill is not related to minorities. It is only about clothing," he said....

    Non-Muslims in Afghanistan were required to wear arm bands under the former Taliban regime.

    The practice is a throwback to centuries-old rules imposed on non-Muslims living in Islamic states. Under Dhimmi law, non-Muslims were guaranteed security in exchange for paying a tax and wearing special labels on their clothing.


    Meantime, the National Post -- the original source of the story -- is reporting on the claims that the story was mistaken, and also writing:

    Ali Reza Nourizadeh, an Iranian commentator on political affairs in London, suggested that the requirements for badges or insignia for religious minorities was part of a “secondary motion” introduced in parliament, addressing the changes specific to the attire of people of various religious backgrounds.

    Mr. Nourizadeh said that motion was very minor and was far from being passed into law.

    That account could not be confirmed.


    Meir Javdanfar, an Israeli expert on Iran and the Middle East who was born and raised in Tehran, said yesterday that he was unable to find any evidence that such a law had been passed.

    “None of my sources in Iran have heard of this,” he said. “I don’t know where this comes from.” ...

    Thanks to reader Victor Steinbok for the pointer.


    > http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_05_14-2006_05_20.shtml#1148094647

    ReplyDelete
  170. Anonymous1:46 PM

    Bart.... Snake Oil salesman.

    In Thomas Berger's novel, Little Big Man, Mr. Merriweather, the snake oil salesman, was one of the better educated, least hypocritical and more likable white characters. But as the story progresses he loses most of "his parts".

    ReplyDelete
  171. Anonymous1:50 PM

    Volokh peddles a better smelling snake oil than Bart, but it's still snake oil. Same with the ole perfesser.

    ReplyDelete
  172. Anonymous1:58 PM

    Bart... Who knows? It could all be a hoax. But pardon me for not taking much of anything the Iranian regime says at face value after the IAEA has found Iran lying continuously about its nuclear prorgam and recently found near or full weapons grade enriched uranium on Iranian equipment.

    That's precisely how over 70% of the country feels about this administration in particular and Republicans in general. And exactly how most people here feel about you and the rest of the less than 50% of the "backwash" deadenders who still shill for those snake oil salesman. Pardon them, and most of them will be pardoned. It's really disgusting. I hope they get what's coming to them one way or another this time.

    ReplyDelete
  173. Anonymous1:59 PM

    rest of the less than 30% of the "backwash" deadenders

    ReplyDelete
  174. Anonymous2:00 PM

    the fly said:
    Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the desire to defend the 4th Amendment. However the government does have a much larger responsibility to defend the nation itself against foreign attacks.

    What makes you think we can't do both? And what is the point of "defending the nation" against terrorist attacks if you lose the "soul of the nation" (e.g. rule of law, right to privacy, right to free speech, etc.) in the process? Please tell me, what are we fighting for?

    the fly said:
    I happen to agree with Bart. As far as I am concerned, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy for international calls made between a US person and another person outside the US, meaning that FISA warrants are not required.

    And you base that assertion on what? Somebody else pointed out that this is circular reasoning: because we're wiretapping you, you don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy; since you don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy, we can wiretap you.

    I have never done anything close to resembling collaborating with terrorists- why shouldn't I expect the government to leave me alone? And don't give me any crap about how I don't have anything to hide, so I shouldn't worry. Flip the question around: since I don't have anything to hide, why shouldn't I expect to be left alone?

    the fly said:
    For example, let's say that the NSA has the ability to tap fiber optic data lines crossing the ocean floor in international waters off the coast of the US. Would they need a FISA warrant for that even though they are operating outside the borders of the US?

    They do have this power, and they use it all the time on foreign governments (China, Korea, Russia, etc.) I hope to God they use more of that.

    But the FISA violations we're talking about deal with American persons, not foreign governments. If an American citizen is suspected of being involved in terrorism or espionage, then the FISA court comes into play in order to allow surveillance of that American citizen.

    You may think the distinction between a suspected terrorist and a suspected terrorist who is an American citizen is silly, but remember that the FISA law was enacted as a response to governmental abuse of surveillance power. It's not like we've had this law forever, and thus have forever tied the hands of the NSA. We put these restrictions in place in order to avoid another abuse of surveillance power on American citizens.

    I'm sure you would agree that governmental surveillance power should have some check on it in order to prevent and avoid abuse of that power. But what is the FISA law, if it's not a check on that power?

    ReplyDelete
  175. Anonymous5:32 PM

    People don't seem to realize that the Founding Fathers considered the Executive to be less important than the Legislative branch. And that is why the Executive powers are set forth in Article II of the Constitution, and not Article I. And this Commander in Chief bs only applies to the armed forces in time of war. Hence (and I really hate that word), civilians are not under the Commander in Chief's authority especially since we're not at war. No war has been declared, we are not at war as declared by the House. Which means, that the Commander in Chief's authority doesn't apply. The House of Representatives is the only branch of the government that has the authority to declare, finance and determine war. Unfortunately, until recently, Tom DeLay ran the House. But constitutionally, Bush's powers are very limited. Our main problem is a Republican Congress which will not exercise their powers over the president. They have delegated their powers to Bush, which they are not constitutionally able to do.

    ReplyDelete
  176. Anon, cfaller96,

    "What makes you think we can't do both? And what is the point of "defending the nation" against terrorist attacks if you lose the "soul of the nation" (e.g. rule of law, right to privacy, right to free speech, etc.) in the process? Please tell me, what are we fighting for?"

    As you might guess, I do not subscribe to the idea that the president is "breaking the law". In fact, it seems to me that Congress is failing the American people in the manner in which it is handling the warrant less surveillance issue. Nor do I perceive myself as "willing to give up my rights", that is a just a label that others use as a prop.

    What are we fighting for? The overall national defense effort is primarily to protect lives and property of Americans against another foreign attack. Also included in the "soul of the nation" is the constitutional right to live in a country were the federal government provides for the common defense as the framers intended. Something I don't want to give up either.

    As I stated above, as far as I am concerned, international communications are fair game for warrant less surveillance, regardless of who initiates the call or who picks up the phone within the borders of the US. To suggest that the government should be required to obtain a FISA warrant for each instance of surveillance of communications that cross our border [whether incoming or outgoing] is simply unrealistic.

    Why is it that Customs agents at our international airports or at our borders are not required to stop and seek judicial supervision each time they want to search people and their personal property when they enter the US?

    "People don't seem to realize that the Founding Fathers considered the Executive to be less important than the Legislative branch."

    Whether we like it or not, there are occasions when the national defense requires the president to act with an urgency that would not be possible if we must wait for a concurring opinion from Congress. From the beginning, American presidents have authorized military action both with or without formal approval of Congress.

    Maybe if Congress wasn't so lame...

    ReplyDelete
  177. Anonymous11:15 AM

    the fly said:
    As you might guess, I do not subscribe to the idea that the president is "breaking the law".

    Please tell me how the warrantless surveillance program of American citizens complies with FISA law.

    the fly said:
    What are we fighting for? The overall national defense effort is primarily to protect lives and property of Americans against another foreign attack.

    That's it? Just normal defense of people and property against attack? We've been doing that for over two centuries, yet we were still able to preserve the rule of law, generally. Hell, we fought the Cold War for 50 years and defeated the Soviet Union and were still able to abide by this law, specifically.

    I guess what I'm asking is, why is the "War on Terror" so special that we have to change our legal system, our civil liberties, how we live? Doesn't changing all of those things imply that we're losing the "War on Terror"?

    the fly said:
    As I stated above, as far as I am concerned, international communications are fair game for warrant less surveillance, regardless of who initiates the call or who picks up the phone within the borders of the US.

    Stating it doesn't make it so. Please explain how you think this is legal by citing post-FISA case law.

    I regularly make international calls as part of my business. Why am I more suspicious to you than another American citizen that doesn't regularly make international calls? Why do I, in your opinion, lose my protection from unreasonable search & seizure? What have I done that makes you think I don't deserve legal protection from my government?

    the fly said:
    To suggest that the government should be required to obtain a FISA warrant for each instance of surveillance of communications that cross our border [whether incoming or outgoing] is simply unrealistic.

    It's the law that requires the government to do this. It's not a 'suggestion'. Do you not understand that, or do you not accept that? (And by the way, the President disagrees with you, if you believe what he said on 4/20/04.)

    We are a nation where man is ruled by laws, not the other way around. If you think a law is unrealistic or unworthy of the fight against terrorism, then change the law. Where does it say that just because you don't like a law, you can ignore it?

    ReplyDelete
  178. ein dallas:

    They have delegated their powers to Bush, which they are not constitutionally able to do.

    Agreed. Amongst the non-delegable powers is the power to declare war. Another such non-delegable power is the power to make legislation.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  179. You ignored his reliance on the word "reasonable" in your post, Glenn.

    I believe it is a disservice to your readers to have done so.

    During Senator Feinstein's first rounds of questions with Hayden (1st morning, right before lunch) Hayden admitted that his main legal crutch was _his_ reading of the 4th Amendment to the Constitution.

    His reading, which he claims to have gotten from some young relatives of his who are law students, is that if the search is "reasonable" (by whose standard, no stinking Senator ever bothers to ask) then no warrant would have been required, so FISA, by that logic, was not violated.

    I wrote this in your comments months ago, and wrote you an e-mail about it in this last week.

    Is the Hayden rationale valid? I sure as f*ck don't think so, but nor do I have the world's strongest background in 4th Amendment interpretation through history. I did get as far as loving Boyd Vs US, 1886.

    ReplyDelete
  180. cfaller96,

    "Why do I, in your opinion, lose my protection from unreasonable search & seizure?"

    Surveillance of international communications is perfectly reasonable as far as I am concerned. What if you are crossing the US border in person, can the government search you and your personal property without a warrant? [Yes, they can]

    I do agree with you that in the case of entirely domestic surveillance, warrants would generally be required but that is not what the NSA program is about.

    Regardless of our opinions, the executive branch is responsible for national security and is entitled to act on its own reading of the law and the Constitution. With all of the serious questions people have raised recently, Congress has continued to remain silent since 2001.

    I for one would be very interested to learn what Congress would have say if it formally investigated the matter, but so far we have nothing other than Sen. Feingold's premature censure resolution.

    Why don't you blame Congress for it's lack of meaningful oversight?

    "And by the way, the President disagrees with you, if you believe what he said on 4/20/04"

    That whole bit about President Bush saying "any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order" is taken out of context.

    President Bush was actually speaking about domestic law enforcement, FBI, local police etc. in the context of the USA Patriot ACT, not national security such as NSA surveillance of international communications for the purpose of gathering foreign intelligence [which, at that time, was still a classified program].

    More.

    ReplyDelete