Sunday, May 28, 2006

New Bush appointee caught changing and distorting his own quotes

Several days ago, the Bush administration announced that Karl Zinsmeister, the long-time Editor of the right-wing American Enterprise magazine, would become its new Domestic Policy Advisor. The appointment was celebrated by self-proclaimed personal friends of Zinsmeister such as Scott Johnson at Powerline and Jonah Goldberg, both of whom lauded his great intellect and integrity.

But an exposè today in The New York Sun documents rather compellingly that integrity does not exactly appear to be one of Zinsmeister's strong suits. In 2004, The Syracuse New Times published a profile and interview with Zinsmeister which contained some rather controversial and provocative quotes, as well as some disrespectful and critical quotes about the Commander-in-Chief. But when Zinsmeister re-published the New Times profile on the American Enterprise website, he fundamentally changed the controversial quotations in order to make it appear that he never said them. According to the Sun:

A magazine editor named to a top White House policy post, Karl Zinsmeister, altered his own quotes and other text in a published newspaper profile of him posted on the Web site of the magazine he has edited for more than a decade, the American Enterprise.

When Zinsmeister re-published the New Times profile on his website, he did nothing to indicate that he had changed the quotes and content. To the contrary, he misled his readers into believing that he was posting the original article:

The version of the story posted by the American Enterprise runs under Mr. Park's byline and states that it was published in the Syracuse New Times.

The editor of the original article, Molly English, pointed out the obvious:

She said it was unethical for Mr. Zinsmeister to post an altered version of the story without permission. "It's reprehensible, frankly," Ms. English said. "Once this is published, it's not his property. From that point in time, he can't just pick and choose."

All of the multiple examples of changed quotations cited in the Sun article make clear that Zinsmeister knew that his quotes would be politically damaging and so he wanted to alter them in order to reflect better on him. As but one example, Zinsmeister changed what he said that was critical of President Bush to instead make it appear reverent:

Mr. Zinsmeister, who has written three books based on his reporting trips to Iraq, also removed or reworded quotes that could be viewed as critical of the Bush administration or inflammatory to some in the Middle East.

The original article quoted Mr. Zinsmeister as saying, "[Bush] said, 'I'm gonna do something for history.' To say nothing of whether it was executed well or not, but it's brave and admirable. It got depressing to have to be [in the Middle East] every couple years like cicadas."

The version posted by the American Enterprise omits the suggestion that the war was poorly run, drops the insect metaphor, and substitutes nobler language. "[Bush] said, 'I'm gonna do something for history.' It's a brave and admirable attempt to improve the world," the second version said.

As another example: "Mr. Park also quoted the magazine editor as saying, 'I can't think of one Iraqi I met that I'm confident never lied to me.' Mr. Zinsmeister's version said he passed on the comment from 'one officer who'd been in Iraq for a full year.'" So, afraid of taking responsibility for what he said about the propensity for Iraqis to lie, Zinsmeister altered the article to make it seem like he was simply repeating what someone else had told him.

Much, much worse than these alterations -- and they are bad enough -- Zinsmeister caused a White House spokesperson to simply lie about why Zinsmeister made the changes:

In response to queries from The New York Sun yesterday, the White House said all of the changes were to correct errors in the August 2004 article, which was written by Justin Park and published in a weekly newspaper, the Syracuse New Times.

"These were corrections that were made due to misattributions or misunderstandings by the reporter that were cleaned up when they were reposted," a White House spokeswoman, Jeanie Mamo, said.

The claim that Zinsmeister was simply correcting misquotes is ludicrous on its face, since he never once claimed to the reporter or editor that he was misquoted in any way, let alone repeatedly misquoted in fundamental ways. To the contrary, after the story was published, he went out of his way to lavishly praise the reporter and the newspaper for the quality of the profile:

The New Times reporter, Mr. Park, said last night that he was "fairly certain" that he taped the interview with Mr. Zinsmeister, which the journalist said took place at a noisy restaurant. Mr. Park also said he was taken aback by the White House claim of inaccuracies, since Mr. Zinsmeister sent an effusive e-mail soon after the article appeared.

"I just read your story on line, and wanted to thank you for an extremely fair and thoughtful treatment," Mr. Zinsmeister wrote in an August 18, 2004, message provided to the Sun by Mr. Park.

Mr. Zinsmeister, an avowed conservative and staunch proponent of the war in Iraq, also expressed surprise at Mr. Park's approach, since the New Times is a left-leaning publication. "I really appreciate your professionalism and kindness. You wrote it straight up, which is the best and hardest kind of journalism. Let me know when I can next help out your journalism," the editor wrote.

"I'm sure he would have said something if he felt misquoted at the time," Mr. Park said yesterday.

Is there anything less credible in the world than Zinsmeister's claim - made through the White House spokesperson - that he altered these potentially embarrassing quotes because he was repeatedly misquoted, given that he not only never claimed he was misquoted, but sent e-mails praising the outstanding journalism evinced by the story? Nobody who was misquoted in such fundamental and unfair ways would thereafter send e-mails specifically praising the "professionalism" of the reporters and lauding the "fair and thoughtful treatment" they were given, let alone call the article "the best and hardest kind of journalism." All of that is self-evident.

Zinsmeister clearly changed his own quotes because he thought they reflected poorly on him, an incredibly unethical thing to do, especially since he misled people into believing that he was quoting the article itself. Now, when caught, he refuses to take responsibility for what he did, but instead begins offering up patently false explanations for why he did it, even going so far as trying to heap the blame on the supposedly sloppy and/or unethical practices of the reporter and editor who were responsible for the story -- all in order to save himself.

This kind of reprehensible behavior would completely disqualify Zinsmeister from working with any reputable organization which cared about honesty, integrity and truthfulness. That's the good news for him; his new job is clearly not in jeopardy with the Bush administration. He's probably already in line for a promotion.

180 comments:

  1. Anonymous12:22 PM

    Telling lies is what the lying liars do best. Rewriting quotes is just another form of lying.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Anonymous12:25 PM

    Ancient Chinese proverb:

    The fish rots from the head

    ReplyDelete
  3. Anonymous12:35 PM

    Comic Book Heroes

    In January 2005, Marvel Comics was to publish Combat Zone: True Tales of GI's in Iraq, a two-part comic book written by Zinsmeister. Marvel's oromotional material describes Zinsmeister's comic book thus: "Combat comics are taken to a whole new level! Three months in the lives of the 82nd Airborne in the Battle for Iraq are chronicled in this groundbreaking series by long-time embedded journalist Karl Zinsmeister."


    America would be a better country again someday if the current U.S. Government would get the hell off the planet. It's not going to work if it just gets the hell out of North America. This planet just ain't big enough for us human beings and these aliens. At least "illegal immigrants" come from the same planet we do.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Anonymous12:41 PM

    It's par for the course in Bushworld. Yesterday Bush argued at West Point that we went into Iraq because Hussein refused to disarm. Of course everyone knows he didn't have any WMD. And of course the Washington Post and the New York Times failed to mention that Bush made the preposterous claim in their coverage of the speech.

    Lies -- they're ok now.

    We are losing our republic.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Anonymous12:49 PM

    These Orwellian monsters are at it everywhere today. If they have their way, the "official history" thirty years from now will have no resemblance to the truth whatsoever. George Bush will go down in history as the greatest American president of all time. How sad is that? The Cuban government is not perfect, not by a long shot. What country is? It's government does a damn sight better at many things for it's people than the current U.S. government does here. To my knowledge, the Cuban government has never invaded another country based on a lie and massacred it's civillian population.
    Cuba entry in Wikipedia stirs controversy

    One editor complained that Havana sympathizers were transforming a scholarly enterprise into ''their own private Fidel Castro fan page.'' A user was tossed out after threatening to sue another for libel.

    The fuss is over the Cuba entry in Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia created, edited and administered entirely by volunteers with the aim of becoming a web-based knowledge repository for humanity.

    But the Cuba entry, like those on President Bush and abortion, has been snared in intense political divisions over everything from the impact of U.S. sanctions on the communist-ruled island to whether it should have a separate section on its human rights record. Russia and North Korea do not.

    There have been so many dueling edits -- 30 entries on April 27 alone -- that the article has been placed off-limits to first-time or unregistered users. The article has notices alerting readers that the neutrality of four sections is under dispute.

    A central tenet of Wikipedia is that articles must be written in a neutral point of view. But, as the debate on the talk page attached to the Cuba article demonstrates, neutrality is often in the eye of the beholder.

    The debate over Cuba turned intense after Adam Carr, who identifies himself as having a PhD in history from the University of Melbourne in Australia and a gay rights activist, introduced this sentence high in the article: ``Cuba is a socialist republic, in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party, and is the only state in the western hemisphere that is not a democracy.''

    This prompted responses that went from scholarly citations of political scientists with definitions of democracy, to accusations of not-so-hidden political agendas.

    Bruce Hallman wrote that calling Cuba undemocratic is a ''logical fallacy'' because it applies ''capitalistic values'' in the context of a socialist society.

    'Might it be possible to write the article without using the word `democracy' at all?'' he suggested.

    ''Sorry, comrade, no dice,'' answered Carr, one of the few writers who posts a description of himself. ``These comments show quite clearly that you are a communist, or at least someone who actively supports the Castro dictatorship, not just ... someone who is naïve about the realities of Cuba.''

    With neither side giving in, on April 15 a ''mediation cabal''-- an informal mediator -- joined the discussion because the talk page had become ``huge.'' The cabal suggested citing reputable sources to back the Cuba-is-not-a-democracy sentence.

    ''If we need a citation that Cuba is not a democracy, then maybe we need citation that Cuba is in Latin America,'' retorts CJK, another user.

    ''Cuba is a dictatorship, plain and simple,'' says Carr, calling Castro's foreign supporters ``gullible idiots.''

    Failing to produce an agreement, the cabal departed after complaining that several editors were being rude.

    Others argued that if the article discusses human rights in Cuba, it should also point out U.S. human rights abuses. ''We will not be distracted by the well-known communist diversionary tactic of playing bogus moral equivalence games,'' Carr responded.

    Scott Grayban, a talk page writer who identifies himself as a U.S. air force veteran, calls Carr ''nothing more than a pro-Bush hate-Cuba type person'' and in a separate email threatened to sue Carr for libel. An administrator promptly banned Grayban for life from editing Wikipedia.

    Other users also have been banned, including ''Comandante'' who has changed the Cuba article more than 700 times. Another participant wrote that Comandante's internet address suggests he lives in Cuba.

    ''If he has a computer and free access to the internet, that makes him part of the privileged elite in Cuba,'' Carr wrote.

    ''If Congressional staffers are banned, certainly a propagandist for Castro deserves the same,'' wrote 172, who claims to be a history professor at a U.S. undergraduate institution.

    A few years ago, online discussions of this sort would have gone unnoticed. But Wikipedia is now the 17th most visited site in the world and its traffic continues to grow at a fast pace, according to Alexa Internet, a web-ranking outfit owned by Amazon.com...

    ReplyDelete
  6. This is the work of the Ministry of Truth.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Anonymous12:52 PM

    A hoax entry wrongly implicating a journalist John Seigenthaler in the JFK assassination went unnoticed for seven months, and several U.S. congressional staffers were caught altering their bosses' entries.

    But one study suggested that Wikipedia has only marginally more errors than Britannica, which disputes the conclusion.

    Most articles are uncontroversial, said Kat Walsh, a volunteer administrator for Wikipedia. But ''where people are out fighting in the real world, they're going to have differences of opinion on Wikipedia as well,'' she said.

    Despite all the revisions, the Cuba article contains some glaring omissions -- no mention of the Helms-Burton Act that tightened the embargo, for example -- some mangled syntax (''After two decades of government without elections, repetitive failures of economic experiments, lack of freedom and respect for basic human rights made discontent among Cuban population to grow'') and no agreement.

    Walsh says this is all part of the plan.

    She says Wikipedia already has more than 900 volunteer administrators patrolling the site to protect it from vandals and other troublemakers.

    And contributors can ask for a non-binding mediation -- as the Cuba writers did on April 28. If that fails, a binding arbitration can be requested.

    ''There are some chaotic elements but on the whole, the community is developing ways to respond to it,'' Walsh said.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Anonymous12:54 PM

    Yesterday Bush argued at West Point that we went into Iraq because Hussein refused to disarm.

    Do you remember, right before the US invaded Iraq, Hussein was destroying his own missiles because they were found to be in violation of the cease-fire agreement?

    At the time, I remember saying, "Bush is a genius; he's got the enemy disarming himself just by threatening to invade. So long as he doesn't actually invade, he's a genius. The moment he does invade, he's a moron."

    ReplyDelete
  9. Anonymous12:55 PM

    /Talk about "changing and distorting" what you have said in the past...

    The entire Iraq war situation is one big lie that constantly shifts to keep anyone from talking about any one lie too long.

    Sure there is all the PRE-WAR crap and the lies about Saddam, false connections to 9/11, and non-existant WMD.

    Today they are lying about Mission Accomplished. Because there it is increasingly obvious that we have not "liberated" the country, did not install a democracy, and things are not getting better - now chimpy and blair are even backing off the "mission accomplished" crap.

    Now they are trying to say the world needs to "forget" the war-crimes and "help."

    Now chimpy is proclaiming that he has create a great "legacy" for another president to "finish."

    Absolute bullcrap, but the truth doesn't matter - after all, they had to steal the 2000 election and then exploit a fake "terrorist" attack to get the people behind their neocon agenda.

    And now we are seeing the wheels come off. Don't expect any easy solutions because the criminality of this administration will demand even more to keep them all out of prison.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Anonymous12:57 PM

    But Glenn, surely you must realize by now that being a lying, cheating scumbag is a PREREQUISITE to joining the Bush administration.

    Sad really. I never realized there were so many people willing to put the good of their party ahead of the good of their country.

    Sad, sad times...........

    ReplyDelete
  11. Anonymous1:03 PM

    Quit Using Our Name, West Point Warns Grad

    Former cadets against Iraq war use alma mater to describe group.



    There's a West Point Barber Shop, West Point Pizza and West Point Florist.

    But the U.S. Military Academy at West Point is warning a Manlius man that his new organization West Point Graduates Against the War better stop using the words "West Point" in its name.

    Bill Cross, a West Point graduate and Vietnam War veteran, said he's become accustomed to some military officials criticizing him for protesting both U.S. wars on Iraq.

    But Cross never expected the government to threaten to use trademark laws to stifle him, he said.

    On April 12, just days after www.westpointgradsagainstthewar.org was launched on the Internet, a West Point lawyer mailed Cross' organization a letter alleging it is violating the U.S. Army's trademark.

    Academy spokesman Michael D'Aquino said this dispute is not about politics.

    The military academy would have sent Cross' organization a warning letter even if it was called "West Point Graduates For the War," D'Aquino said.

    The U.S. Army registered a trademark on the words "West Point" in 2000 to prevent anyone else from using the mark on educational material or a wide range of commercial goods, including golf balls, commemorative coins, Christmas tree ornaments and paper products.

    "Users must have (the Army's) permission to incorporate these words in Web sites or organizational titles," D'Aquino said.

    When a trademark violation comes to their attention, Army officials take action, D'Aquino said.

    Cross' organization has hired Syracuse attorney Joseph Heath to battle back against the academy, located 50 miles north of New York City. In a letter sent Monday to West Point, Heath questioned the academy's stance given his client's First Amendment rights and the widespread use of the words "West Point."

    Cross, a psychology professor at Onondaga Community College and family therapist, co-founded West Point Graduates with his 1962 classmates Jim Ryan, of New York City, and Joe Wojcik, of Claremont, Calif.

    He said the organization has a Web site, but no assets, and it isn't selling anything. The founders plan to incorporate it as a nonprofit business. West Point graduates, their spouses and their children can join for free.

    Cross estimated that about 50 people have joined since the Web site was launched in mid-April. Through Tuesday afternoon, there had been more than 22,000 hits on the group's Web site.

    As for barbers and florists who use the name for their businesses, at least three interviewed Thursday said they've never been contacted by the Army, and were unaware the name was a trademark.

    "I'm 73 years old, I've been here 50 years and they've never bothered me," said Bill Carlton, owner of the West Point Barber Shop in West Point, Va. "As far as I know, anybody who wants to open (a business) can go ahead and grab (the name)."

    ReplyDelete
  12. Anonymous1:04 PM

    We could stop the war in Iraq and begin the process of healing this great nation if we would bring the current administration before a court or grand jury. Their lies, treason, and criminal acts started this war and now they demand the slaughter to continue.

    The Bush administration had the motives, means, and opportunity to create the events that enabled a war of conquest and personal profits in Iraq. The administration acted to bring their preconceived war in Iraq to fruitarian.

    Only the U.S Government could have orchestrated the events that started the war drums and fed the mighty Wurlitzer that was used to build support for the Iraq war.

    The Department of Defense stood down

    The WTC was demolished with a controlled demolition

    The pentagon was “attacked” with a hoax about a passenger airliner

    Another hoax was used to create a distraction in PA, flight 93 and build the myth of “Let’s Roll”

    Pre-9/11 intelligence failures-by-design were used to create “patsies” with excuses for the events

    The power of a grand jury or even the "discovery" process in a civil suit would result in a meaningful investigation. It might convince some to talk and the ability to grant some people immunity might result in "flipping" some conspirators.

    The actions of the defendants tell you they are guilty. For example, it would be a serious violation of rules and regulations to let a president read an upside-down goat book while the nation was experiencing the worst attack on U.S. soil in history.

    The “official story” would be laughable on its face if it wasn’t so tragic and if it wasn’t used to commit even greater war crimes and crimes against humanity. There is no way the administration’s version of events could withstand cross-examination by competent counsel.

    ReplyDelete
  13. This is a man who will be a perfect fit in the Bush administration.

    I don't hate Bush, I just despise him.

    ReplyDelete
  14. What we need to understand is that those who call themselves conservatives today have a different set of values. What we call integrity they call weakness. Their only principle is power and their only value is winning. The answer to whether or not the ends justify the means is always 'if it works' and the answer to whether or not something is ethical is always 'if we get away with it'. They will defend and support each other until it becomes clear it won't work and it puts them on the losing side. The right side is always the winning side, unless of course they are unable to switch. Trying to shame them is useless. They have none. They can sometimes be embarassed, which is far worse. As Glenn and others have pointed out before, there is a word for conservatives who lose: liberal.

    ReplyDelete
  15. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  16. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  17. They've just to work harder on the memory hole so it doesn't leak so much and posts like this one will become physically impossible.

    WAR IS PEACE

    FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

    IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

    Truth is whats left after all the physical evidence has been removed.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Anonymous1:31 PM

    "He's probably already in line for a promotion." A medal.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Anonymous2:04 PM

    Such irony that an administration bent on waving their morals and values as a badge of honor routinely creates fiction from fact and truth from lies...I'm reminded of a favorite quotation from Horace Mann, "We go by the major vote, and if the majority are insane, the sane must go to the hospital." When I read stories where people simply attempt to turn reality upside down, I begin to wonder what time I should report to the hospital.

    more observations here:

    www.thoughttheater.com

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anonymous2:09 PM

    A Medal of Freedom.

    Freedom to lie.

    Freedom to distort and misrepresent.

    Freedom to point fingers and accuse others of a lack of patriotism.

    Nothing new here.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Anonymous3:28 PM

    The U.S. Army registered a trademark on the words "West Point" in 2000 to prevent anyone else from using the mark on educational material or a wide range of commercial goods

    Bullshit. I call 'em on it. I live not too far down the road from West Point, IN. In West Point, Indiana, is West Point Telephone, a commercial enterprise. There are other West Point companies there too.

    C'mon West Point Military Academy pussies, sue West Point, Indiana, and everyone in it. Sue to stop West Point Telephone from using their own town's name. Sue to force them and all other West Points in the country to change their name.

    The clowns running West Point are unethical liars and need to be run through a Courts Martial and given hard time at Levinworth. Bastards.

    I hope the West Point Graduates Against the War stick to their guns and tell West Point Academy to blow it out their ass.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Anonymous6:30 PM

    Let's give credit where credit is due. Are you sure Zinsmeister thought this up all by himself? Or was he following directions from a White House who scripts everything in an attempt to control its message?

    ReplyDelete
  23. Anonymous6:36 PM

    Shooter,

    You are having to work way too hard. That ought to tell you something.

    Wilson did not perjure himself as has been explained to you ad nauseam here and elsewhere.

    And this is not a game where we decide that the side with the fewest crooks wins, much as you might like to play that game. Even though that's a game you'd you'd lose anyway.

    You have simply joined the ranks of those who willingly perjure themselves to defend those for whom there is no defense.

    And you do it as if it is a consequence-free act.

    But it is not.

    Tens of thousands have died thanks to the lies of this administration and its defenders.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Anonymous6:45 PM

    Shooter, have you paid homage to great American hero and Gulf War vet Tim McViegh today? It is Memorial day and the soldiers who fought in all the great American wars before you or Bart were born wouldn't want pissant traitors like either of you to sully their heroism and names.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Anonymous7:16 PM

    DavidByron said...
    Cuba entry in Wikipedia stirs controversy

    The Wikipedia is useless on anything political because it's run by a cadre of Rightwing Americans (or do I repeat myself?)


    Would it be too much to ask for the unvarnished truth? I swear, if my government says something today, I discount it out of hand. I would rather get my news from Al-Jazeera. I have more in common with the freedom fighters in Iraq or the freedom fighters in Vietnam. I am raising a beer to Jane Fonda today and all the men who fought in the wars prior to Vietnam. If this government is losing the hearts and minds of it's own people, it hasn't a chance anywhere else. Good riddance to filth and rubbish.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Anonymous7:28 PM

    DavidByron said...
    Cuba entry in Wikipedia stirs controversy

    The Wikipedia is useless on anything political because it's run by a cadre of Rightwing Americans (or do I repeat myself?)


    You tell 'em David. If Wikipedia were honest, it would talk about how every Cuban has a car in the garage, great educational opportunites for the children, the ability to speak out and express whatever views they want without fear of reprisal from the government, and a long and illustrious history of Freedom and Glorious Socialist Revolution under Fidel Castro.

    But instead, we just get right-wing propaganda about how repressive Il Duce is. I'm really tired of left-wing Sociliast Dictators getting bum raps from all these right-wing liars, and I'm glad David Byron is here to fight it.

    Why, without even looking, I'll bet the entries for Josef Stalin and the Stasi are all negative, too. Goddamn propagandists.

    When will people start admitting that communism WORKS - that it brings nothing but happiness and freedom to those whose souls it crushes?

    ReplyDelete
  27. Anonymous8:16 PM

    There have been four coup attempts by fascists in America. The first was the Bay of Pigs when the C.I.A. attempted to force Kennedy into a war with Cuba by landing Marines on its beaches. This coup attempt forced Kennedy to break apart the C.I.A. into the C.I.A. and N.S.A. attempting to duplicate the Soviet Unions method of having one spy agency keeping check on the other spy agency. This is necessary because spy agencies are the most corrupt of government agencies.

    The second coup attempt was under Richard Nixon when his corruption caused him to hire C.I.A. agents to commit crimes for him.

    The third coup attempt was somewhat successful when George H.W. Bush played Machiavelli to Ronald Reagan and completed a traitorous deal with terrorists to force Carter out of the presidency.

    The fourth coup attempt is what we are witnessing now, and most of the republicans, some of the democrats, the major news media propagandists and certain fascist business interests attempting to make this coup a success are traitors.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Anonymous8:34 PM

    Shooter242

    No longer the shooter. Soon the shootee. That's what you do with traitors.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Anonymous8:41 PM

    Shooter242

    Wilson is far more credible than the administration that forged Nigerian documents with the right names, but the wrong dates in office, (typical conservative move,) just as they were responsible for the documents that ended up in an Italian reporter's hands.

    Who do conservatives think they are kidding? The administration's responsibility for criminal actions are obvious to anyone with half a brain.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Anonymous8:51 PM

    Sorry bub, Bush might have been wrong, but he didn't lie. More importantly an even larger number of lives have been saved by removing Saddam.

    Hey! Great idea! We can save thousands of lives if we bomb the hell out of Israel and invade them too!

    ReplyDelete
  31. Anonymous8:52 PM

    "Who do conservatives think they are kidding?"

    At this point, the only people they are ever concerned with... themselves.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Anonymous9:02 PM

    Government on a Crime Spree utilizes military on a Murder Spree

    The Sunday Times May 28, 2006
    Revealed: how US marines massacred 24

    PHOTOGRAPHS taken by American military intelligence have provided crucial evidence that up to 24 Iraqis were massacred by marines in Haditha, an insurgent stronghold on the banks of the Euphrates.
    One portrays an Iraqi mother and young child, kneeling on the floor, as if in prayer. They have been shot dead at close range.

    The pictures show other victims, shot execution-style in the head and chest in their homes. An American government official said they revealed that the marines involved had “suffered a total breakdown in morality and leadership”.

    The killings are emerging as the worst known American atrocity of the Iraq war. At least seven women and three children were among those killed. Witness accounts obtained by The Sunday Times suggest the toll of children may be as high as six. “This one is ugly,” a US military official said.

    In Britain, the chief of the defence staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, said yesterday that the “appalling” reports of the massacre could undermine British support for the war. “This sort of accusation does make that harder to achieve,” he said.

    The pictures of the dead, which are being closely guarded by the US naval criminal investigation service, were taken by a military photographer who is believed to have arrived on the scene moments after the shootings.

    Many American forces are accompanied by photographers to gather intelligence and to shield soldiers from false accusations of torture, intimidation and violence. In this case, the evidence points fatefully to a murder spree by marines.

    The stain on the American military could prove harder to erase than the photographs of sadistic prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib.

    Comparisons are being made to the My Lai massacre in 1968 in Vietnam, in which American soldiers slaughtered up to 500 villagers.

    Up to a dozen marines may face criminal charges including murder, which carries the death penalty, dereliction of duty and filing a false report. Three marine commanders were suspended last month.

    The naval inquiry is focusing on the actions of a sergeant who may have been the leader of a four-man “fire team”.

    Miguel Terrazas, 20, a lance-corporal from El Paso, Texas, was travelling in a convoy of four Humvees in Haditha just after 7am on November 19 last year when a roadside bomb struck his vehicle, killing him and wounding two others.

    The events that followed are the subject of two military inquiries due to report soon: one into the facts, the other into a cover-up.

    One witness, Aws Fahmi, heard his neighbour, Yunis Salim Khafif, plead for his life in English, shouting: “I am a friend, I am good.”

    “But they killed him, his wife and daughters,” Fahmi said.


    Crime sprees, murder sprees, lies, power grabs, the disintegration of morality, wanton indifference to the lives and well being of others, corruption.....

    When nukes finally end this world they won't be destroying much.

    I used to be so proud of being an American. It was like the biggest gift of all.

    Now I am so ashamed I want to puke. No wonder the world hates Americans. They just judge us by our actions and not our words and not our past achievements (outdated resumes only go so far)and not our Constitution which has become toilet paper.

    Apres moi le deluge?

    We're in the deluge stage now and it's going to drown more than New Orleans.

    Wonder what the "moi" was? It wasn't Bush---he's just a link in the chain.

    Maybe it was human nature. As a matter of fact I think it was. Apparently "A Few Good Men" are not enough to redeem a species.

    PS, yes bart. The women and children were shielding terrorists under the bed. Have it your way.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Anonymous10:33 PM

    To shooter242 and the rest of the contrarians here -

    Okay, guys. You're so anxious to dismiss or at least minimize Zinsmeister's airbrushing his own articles that you've resurrected the charges against Ambassador Wilson, Mr. Berger, Senator Reid, and Representatives Jefferson and Mollohan.

    Let's leave aside the fact none of these men were convicted for any of these supposed crimes; Zinsmeister doesn't face any charges either, so fair's fair there.

    But what exactly do these lapses (some of them little more than inuendo) by this handful of men have to do with the underlying point: that Zinsmeister is knowingly rewriting and distorting his own record simply to make it more 'acceptable' to his new employers?

    You may not have noticed, but none of the examples you cited involved anyone serving in the Executive Branch at this time, nor anyone directly involved in either the policy-making process there or in Congress. Please spare us any hyperventalating about Reid, Jefferson, or Mollohan; the Republicans control Congress and allow no Democrat input there unless its substance-free cover for them.

    If you point was to paint the Democrats as 'just as dirty' as the current Administration and its proxies in Congress, sorry, but there's been a general sentiment of "a plague on both their houses" expressed here and throughout the public in general for some time.

    Plus I don't recall the Democrats iniating wars of choice and ignoring more important business of catching terrorist ringleaders escape scott free.

    Or pursue reckless, ruinous tax cuts and economic policies that are converting our economy into a virtual cryptonomy of structural deficits and overwhelming consumer debt.

    Among other things.

    Incidentially, I don't seriously expect a response of any seriousness or substance to this. There really isn't one to be had.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anonymous12:08 AM

    O'Ryan if you had ever been to Cuba your opiinion might be worth something. It isn't. Castro wasn't a communist. Not at first. Guess who drove him into the arms of the waiting communists? Guess who always does that, and is still trying to do it today in places like Venezuela. Why? Because it's their way or the highway. Who? The oil companies, the sugar companies, big business is more important than the little people, so go suck on that. You are full of blarney and a disgrace to the Irish people. I doubt if you are even Irish. If you are, i bet you are a Protestant, so bugger off before I kneecap you.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Anonymous12:11 AM

    I hate the U.S. government. I love my country and I wish they would get the hell out of it.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Anonymous12:33 AM

    Shooter,

    Have you hugged your Timothy McViegh doll today?

    ReplyDelete
  37. Anonymous12:36 AM

    Capitalism works just fine if you have a big bad army and are willing to use it to get what you want and need. That's why all those democracies that don't make war on their neighbors are social democracies. The kind of places idiots like shooter like to denigrate as "commie lite". Shooter is the lowest rung of the food chain. Shite.

    ReplyDelete
  38. anon@7:16pm: If this government is losing the hearts and minds of it's own people, it hasn't a chance anywhere else. Good riddance to filth and rubbish.

    Remebering the Honorable in Reproach of the Guilty Liars

    And on that note, I offer the following from Helena Cobban's suggestion for remembering the Iraq dead that echoes with the gestures of times past:

    Reproach and remembering are, of course, the two main messages of Maya Lin's beautiful Vietnam War memorial. But reproach is also a strong element in another U.S. memorial from the Civil War era: Arlington National Cemetery.

    Arlington National Cemetery was established right on the grounds of Gen.Robert E. Lee's family home, on the banks of the Potomac River looking straight across at Washington DC. Lee, who had been a general in the Union Army before the Civil War, was probably the highest ranking military man to defect to the Confederacy. (His wife was also the grand-daughter of George and Martha Washington.) After Lee's defection, the Union Army sent troops to occupy his homealong with all its extensive pastures and other landholdings. In 1864, the US government expropriated the land from the Lee family. By that time the dead from the war were becoming very numerous. The Union generals transformed much of the Lee land into a vast war cemetery, burying the dead right up to the edge of the family home of the man they blamed most for the prolongation of the rebellion and the terrible, continuing toll of the fighting.

    So here's my plan. Maybe the best reproach for this present war would be for the next US administration to acquire land right up to the door of George W. Bush's family home on Prairie Chapel Road, in Crawford, Texas, and to establish there a large and impressive monument of reproach, mourning, and remembrance. Or we could have two such monuments: one in Crawford, and one in St. Michaels, Maryland, that could take in and engulf the homes there of both Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld.

    ReplyDelete
  39. I suppose you've forgotten Clinton's bombing of Bosnia, Iraq, incursions into E.Timor and Haiti, Sudan, Somalia, and assorted other warlets of choice.

    For those of us who are here because a: we feel that civil liberties are important and b: we think that wars of aggression are wrong, the argument that "Clinton did it too" carries no weight whatsoever. Unless of course we actually care to compare body-counts.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Anonymous3:56 AM

    For those of us who are here because a: we feel that civil liberties are important and b: we think that wars of aggression are wrong, the argument that "Clinton did it too" carries no weight whatsoever. Unless of course we actually care to compare body-counts.

    It should also be noted that Clinton didn't go into Bosnia unilaterally. He did it under the aegis of NATO. The world supported that action. It did not support the invasion of Iraq. Most countries far wiser in foreign policy than this administration of comic book readers tried to prevent this disaster.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Anonymous4:03 AM

    EWO... David Byron, I am not a useful idiot. To be "useful" one must allow another to use one. I never do. I don't buy brand names. I don't believe propaganda.

    SPEW! Coffee>>>>>>>>> monitor!

    Rand isn't a Brand name?

    You really ought to put down the trashy romance novels masquerading as faux philosophy and read some real writers.


    EWO...The things you propose are equally heinous as the things to which you object. Why can't you simply understand that to give B something that is not his, you must first take it away from A?


    LABOR, n.
    One of the processes by which A acquires property for B.


    LAND, n.

    A part of the earth's surface, considered as property. The theory that land is property subject to private ownership and control is the foundation of modern society, and is eminently worthy of the superstructure. Carried to its logical conclusion, it means that some have the right to prevent others from living; for the right to own implies the right exclusively to occupy; and in fact laws of trespass are enacted wherever property in land is recognized. It follows that if the whole area of terra firma is owned by A, B and C, there will be no place for D, E, F and G to be born, or, born as trespassers, to exist.


    Ambrose Bierce

    The Devil's Dictionary

    ReplyDelete
  42. Anonymous4:09 AM

    The old gringo even had an entry for Bart...




    LIAR, n.
    A lawyer with a roving commission.

    He didn't think much of lawyers, like Jefferson hated judges but I think he would have liked Glenn G. Not Glenn R.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous10:01 AM

    From shooter242 at 12:18PM:

    "Good Lord man, I've agreed with the general assessment and you still want to complain."

    My point was your counter-examples were neither relevant nor as 'destructive' as you wish to paint them. Embarrassing and controversial, perhaps, but not destructive.

    Your list of the Clinton Administration's interventions are no more persuasive either.

    *Operation Desert Fox was perfectly justified under the terms of the 1991 cease-fire, and likely put paid to whatever progress Hussein was making at re-strarting his banned weapons programs at the time.
    *Haiti, Sudan, and Somalia were humantarian interventions, most of which he inherited from Bush 41.
    *Bosnia, specifically Kosovo, was the only intervention that involved US troops, and even then was undertaken in conjunction with the rest of NATO and with broad international consensus.
    *East Timor involved no US troops, but was a multinational effort; our involvement was purely diplomatic and I believe logistical.

    In any case, each action had a great deal more legitimacy and rationality to it than the current expedition in Iraq (which is sure to cement President Bush's place in history alongside such luminaries as General Charles 'Chinese' Gordon and General George A Custer).

    As for OBL, whether President Clinton was right or wrong to let the Sudanese offer pass is better left to history. What is at issue is what the Bush Administration failed to do at Tora Bora and after.

    Your point about the economy's reported growth overlooks a couple small points:
    *we are running literally unprescedented trade and budgetary deficits (all financed by heavy foreign purchasing of T-Bonds)
    *real wages (indexed to inflation) have remained stagnate and purchasing power is failing
    *we have seen a net job LOSS under the Bush Administration, which has yet to be fully recovered from

    In other words, its a great time for the rich, and a lousy, uncertain time for everyone else.


    But then, all of this is fundamentally irrelevant to the original point, which you have so nimbly managed to leave unaddressed.

    Not that I ever expected to you to in the first place.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Anonymous10:07 AM

    From shooter242 at 9:59AM:

    "Oh please. You forgot to note that it wasn't under the approval of the UN. Doesn't that automatically make it illegal?"

    If memory serves, when the Bush Administration couldn't get UN backing for their pending invasion of Iraq, they tried to convince NATO to go along with it.

    I also believe the 'illegal' angle of the argument doesn't rest on whether the US has backing from any of its major treaty partners, but rather on the fact there have been a multitude of justifications for the action offered by the Administration and Congress never formally declared actual war (the AUMF so often bandied about as a proxy was limited forcing the Hussein regime to give up banned weapons, not tearing the country down to the physical and social bedrock and erect some utopian ideal).

    Or so anyone who thinks about this for more than one minute would conclude at least.

    ReplyDelete
  45. I apologize for diverging from the stated topic, but this article written by a Marine who was wrongly accused of crime in Iraq condemning Murtha's political rush to judgement needs to be read here...



    Mr. Murtha's Rush to Judgment
    Sunday, May 28, 2006; B06

    A year ago I was charged with two counts of premeditated murder and with other war crimes related to my service in Iraq. My wife and mother sat in a Camp Lejeune courtroom for five days while prosecutors painted me as a monster; then autopsy evidence blew their case out of the water, and the Marine Corps dropped all charges against me ["Marine Officer Cleared in Killing of Two Iraqis," news story, May 27, 2005].

    So I know something about rushing to judgment, which is why I am so disturbed by the remarks of Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.) regarding the Haditha incident ["Death Toll Rises in Haditha Attack, GOP Leader Says," news story, May 20]. Mr. Murtha said, "Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

    In the United States, we have a civil and military court system that relies on an investigatory and judicial process to make determinations based on evidence. The system is not served by such grand pronouncements of horror and guilt without the accuser even having read the investigative report.

    Mr. Murtha's position is particularly suspect when he is quoted by news services as saying that the strain of deployment "has caused them [the Marines] to crack in situations like this." Not only is he certain of the Marines' guilt but he claims to know the cause, which he conveniently attributes to a policy he opposes.

    Members of the U.S. military serving in Iraq need more than Mr. Murtha's pseudo-sympathy. They need leaders to stand with them even in the hardest of times. Let the courts decide if these Marines are guilty. They haven't even been charged with a crime yet, so it is premature to presume their guilt -- unless that presumption is tied to a political motive.

    ILARIO PANTANO

    Jacksonville, N.C.

    The writer served as a Marine enlisted man in the Persian Gulf War and most recently as a platoon commander in Iraq.


    > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/27/AR2006052700846_pf.html

    AMEN.

    ReplyDelete
  46. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Murtha is making even more inflammatory accusations:

    Rep. John Murtha, a Pennsylvania Democrat and former marine who has become a fierce critic of the Iraq war, said he had no doubt marines killed innocent civilians in Haditha and tried to cover up the deaths. Marine Corps officials, he said on the same television program, have told him that troops shot one woman "in cold blood" who was bending over her child begging for mercy.

    The only possible way to prove this is through an eyewitness. Yet, the NYT through yet another anonymous Iraqi stringer allegedly interviewed four witnesses and even they admit:

    The four survivors' accounts could not be independently corroborated, and it was unclear in some cases whether they actually saw the killings.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/29/world/middleeast/29haditha.html?ex=1306555200&en=2e086fdf0b71ad92&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

    And yet Murtha continues to spew this filth without evidence, charges or a trial.

    ReplyDelete
  48. bart: The only possible way to prove this is through an eyewitness.

    They took pictures with their cellular phones.

    ReplyDelete
  49. the cynic librarian said...

    bart: The only possible way to prove this is through an eyewitness.

    They took pictures with their cellular phones.


    There is a video from a cell phone of a Marine killing a woman begging for her life?

    Show me.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anonymous11:41 AM

    Bart,

    Have you hugged your Timothy McVeigh doll today? He's a Gulf War vet and American hero.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous11:47 AM

    Later, Pantano would tell New York friends, “Iraq makes Apocalypse Now look like day camp.”

    Hug your G.I. McVeigh doll, Bart. And turn the next corner.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Anonymous said...

    Have you hugged your Timothy McVeigh doll today? He's a Gulf War vet and American hero.

    Like Murtha, the wrong that McVeigh did after his service negated what went before.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous11:53 AM

    Shooter... The sad thing is that I think you actually believe this stuff. EWO is referring to taxation, while you counter with mythology. One of the nice things about mythology is that there is no way to measure it's truth. Much like religion. Come back when you have something concrete to add>

    Shooter calls the writings of the founders, upon which Beirce, a man much closer in time and far more well read than either Shooter or EWO, based his opinions, mythology. Thr fact is that's all Shooter has. Mythology. The mythos of the rugged individualist. Shooter, if concrete additions to the discussion were required, you would have been barred from participating right after, "Hello. My name is Shooter".

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous11:57 AM

    Bart,

    Hug your G.I. McVeigh doll today. It's a holiday.

    The only response suitable for either Bart or Shooter.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous12:12 PM

    The only possible way to prove this is through an eyewitness. Yet, the NYT through yet another anonymous Iraqi stringer allegedly interviewed four witnesses and even they admit:


    What kind of an idiot thinks that the only way to prove a massacre took place is with eyewitnesses? Massacres usually involve leaving no witnesses and have been successfully prosecuted long before the advent of digital photography, and just as sucessfully covered up afterward. It gets much more difficult now, what with digital photography and the like.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Anonymous12:13 PM

    Shooter.... Every debate about the legality of the war starts and ends with the UN. Which is pretty much all the UN is good for....debate that is

    I agree. Debate is pointless with some people.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Anonymous12:20 PM

    Mythology....

    The whole of the land was in the hands of a few, and if the cultivators did not pay their rents, they became subject to bondage. ...

    Aristotle


    The Greeks were big on mythology.

    To Shooter, truth and truisms are mythology, and all his favored fictions are fact.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Anonymous12:24 PM

    Was Murtha drafted or did he enlist?

    Bart, how would you know if there was a cellphone picture or not? For a DUI lawyer in Colorado, you certainly seem to be privy to a lot of classified information.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Anonymous12:38 PM

    Well, you see, we're gonna make our own realities, and you'll report on them, and while you're doing that, we'll be making new realities ...

    At the same time, the media is guilty of editing out Bush's stammering from the 'Hurricane Katrina' videoconference. I think his words, stammer included, should be shown AND reported accurately in the press.

    "This uh ... this this uh ... this uh ... huge storm."

    We all have moments where we get tongue-tied. I don't think forgetting the word hurricane is one of them.

    ReplyDelete
  60. CSPAN2 replayed a March 2 forum with Norman Mailer & his son John Buffalo Mailer about their new book The Big Empty. At 83 Mailer has talked about it all and talked about it his way. This forum he chose to speak, very eloquently, about his perceptions of who we have become under the direction of BushCo. His answer to the position of defering civil rights to security caught my attention. His analogy is that terrorism is like having vermin in your house. You do your best to quell the vermin, but you learn to live with them and you don't end up burning the house down to get rid of the varmits. Civil rights are, in this story, the roof over our heads. Mailer's hearing is selective at best so he pretty well dominated the conversations but his son John has inherited his succinct language. One of the best capsules of Americana I've heard in a very long time.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Anonymous12:42 PM

    When James Madison wrote about property and his concern about "the taking of it" he was as much concerned with abtract rights as he was with concrete property.

    "This term in its particular application means "that dominion which one man claims and exercises over the external things of the world, in exclusion of every other individual."

    In its larger and juster meaning, it embraces every thing to which a man may attach a value and have a right; and which leaves to every one else the like advantage.

    In the former sense, a man's land, or merchandize, or money is called his property.

    In the latter sense, a man has a property in his opinions and the free communication of them.

    He has a property of peculiar value in his religious opinions, and in the profession and practice dictated by them.

    He has a property very dear to him in the safety and liberty of his person.

    He has an equal property in the free use of his faculties and free choice of the objects on which to employ them.

    In a word, as a man is said to have a right to his property, he may be equally said to have a property in his rights.

    Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions.

    Where there is an excess of liberty, the effect is the same, tho' from an opposite cause.

    Government is instituted to protect property of every sort; as well that which lies in the various rights of individuals, as that which the term particularly expresses. This being the end of government, that alone is a just government, which impartially secures to every man, whatever is his own.

    According to this standard of merit, the praise of affording a just securing to property, should be sparingly bestowed on a government which, however scrupulously guarding the possessions of individuals, does not protect them in the enjoyment and communication of their opinions, in which they have an equal, and in the estimation of some, a more valuable property.

    More sparingly should this praise be allowed to a government, where a man's religious rights are violated by penalties, or fettered by tests, or taxed by a hierarchy.
    Conscience is the most sacred of all property; other property depending in part on positive law, the exercise of that, being a natural and unalienable right."

    When he wrote this...

    "A just security to property is not afforded by that government, under which unequal taxes oppress one species of property and reward another species: where arbitrary taxes invade the domestic sanctuaries of the rich, and excessive taxes grind the faces of the poor; where the keenness and competitions of want are deemed an insufficient spur to labor, and taxes are again applied, by an unfeeling policy, as another spur; in violation of that sacred property, which Heaven, in decreeing man to earn his bread by the sweat of his brow, kindly reserved to him, in the small repose that could be spared from the supply of his necessities."

    ... I doubt he had our current system in mind, nor would he approve of it now, that which you seem to think is "fair". He would obviously be opposed to the system that favors the rich over the poor.

    I think he probably had something like Morton's Fork in mind.


    Morton's Fork is an expression that describes a choice between two equally unpleasant alternatives, or two lines of reasoning that lead to the same unpleasant conclusion. It is analogous to the expressions "between the devil and the deep sea" or "from the frying pan to the fire".

    The expression originates from a policy of tax collection devised by John Morton, Lord Chancellor in 1487, under the rule of Henry VII. His approach was that if the subject lived in luxury and had clearly spent a lot of money on himself, he obviously had sufficient income to spare for the king. Alternatively, if the subject lived frugally, and showed no sign of being wealthy, he must have had substantial savings and could therefore afford to give it to the king. These arguments were the two prongs of the fork and regardless of whether the subject was rich or poor, he didn't have a favourable choice.


    All you know about taxes, Shooter, is that you shouldn't have to pay them. That's the other sucker's job. You just want a free ride, being the "rugged individualist" that you are.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Anonymous12:46 PM

    From shooter242 at 12:06PM:

    "Every debate about the legality of the war starts and ends with the UN. Which is pretty much all the UN is good for....debate that is."

    Only for those who wish to dodge hard discussion or having to face how badly this Administration managed to screw up and endanger the country.

    For the rest of us, its recognized as a lot more complex.

    "As for the AUMF Iraq it looks darn comprehensive."

    Oh, completely. Provided all you want to do is disarm Iraq and basically destroy the country. Nothing I can see relating to establishing a completely new government.

    "You might want to give it a few more minutes."

    Take your own advice.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Anonymous12:51 PM

    Bart,

    My son and his unit were carrying video cameras (illegally of course) on ops of all kinds back in the early 90's. I've seen the tapes of the insertions and ensuing firefights (they had no idea where they were, and even if they did, they have to kill you if they told you) when we weren't even at war with anyone. He was with the 1/75th Rangers. Those things are smaller and more ubiquitous now. The cat's damn well out of the bag.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous12:56 PM

    You do your best to quell the vermin, but you learn to live with them and you don't end up burning the house down to get rid of the varmits.

    Unless you are an incompetent paranoid, then you burn down the whole neighborhood. I've seen it happen. We all have.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Anonymous12:58 PM

    Gonzales Gone Wild

    On Feb. 6, 2006, U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales launched a convoluted attack on the Fourth Amendment before the Senate Judiciary Committee. This assault on the meaning of the Fourth Amendment is, in my estimation, the biggest leap forward for totalitarianism in this country.

    The following is an excerpt from Alberto Gonzales' Fourth Amendment catechism (emphasis mine):


    (long quote from Gonzales here including these sentences:

    The Fourth Amendment has never been understood to require warrants in all circumstances. The Supreme Court has upheld warrantless searches at the border and has allowed warrantless sobriety checkpoints., e.g., Michigan v. Dept. of State Police v. Sitz, 496 U.S. 444 (1990);

    "The key question under the Fourth Amendment is not whether there was a warrant, but whether the search was reasonable. Determining the reasonableness of a search for Fourth Amendment purposes requires balancing privacy interests with the government's interests and ensuring that we maintain appropriate safeguards. United States v. Knights, 534 U.S. 112, 118- 19 (2001). Although the terrorist surveillance program may implicate substantial privacy interests, the government's interest in protecting our nation is compelling...."

    The above statement from Alberto Gonzales is breathtaking. Notice how he never says the "terrorist" surveillance program satisfies the Fourth Amendment's probable cause provision. Instead, he says it passes the neoconservative "reasonableness" standard. Then, he uses three different types of examples that satisfy the probable cause requirement to imply that the Fourth Amendment doesn't really say what it says about probable cause.

    Although I do question the constitutionality of sobriety checkpoints, a sobriety checkpoint on a public road is still different from invading the privacy of one's house, or eavesdropping on a phone conversation. Sobriety checkpoints are considered constitutional not just because they pass a "reasonableness" standard, but, because they are on public roads, they satisfy the entire Fourth Amendment.....


    BTW, bart. I don't think you are a DUI lawyer in Colorado and I think I could prove that on this blog in two seconds if I chose to but I do not choose to because your identity or pseudo identity is your property and nobody else's.

    What I think you are is a lawyer working for the government, and it might be you were assigned to this blog for one very simple reason:

    Sooner or later this entire debate was going to lead to that one concept: the meaning of the Fourth Amendment, specifically with regard to the concept of "reasonableness vs. probable cause."

    Wouldn't be surprised if you did a lot of the grunt work on this issue, which would be as close to any "sobriety" issues in the law as you are likely to get.

    Anyway, this author is correct. What separates this country from an Orwellian police state and pure, raw totalitarianism is, or was, the Fourth Amendment which appears to have been under attack since at least 1990.

    Every other domestic issue is beside the point. We save the Fourth Amendment or we become a police state. It's that simple.

    PS. People think of "police states" as ones in which the government's use of the threat of guns against the citizens is a primary issue.

    That was true at previous points in history. It isn't now.

    The government could not have a single weapon and still be a police state. It doesn't need weapons when it can totally monitor and control every aspect of every person's life through surveillance.

    Which is why there will never be another revolution in this country.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Anonymous said...

    Rep. John Murtha, a Pennsylvania Democrat and former marine who has become a fierce critic of the Iraq war, said he had no doubt marines killed innocent civilians in Haditha and tried to cover up the deaths. Marine Corps officials, he said on the same television program, have told him that troops shot one woman "in cold blood" who was bending over her child begging for mercy.

    Bart: The only possible way to prove this is through an eyewitness. Yet, the NYT through yet another anonymous Iraqi stringer allegedly interviewed four witnesses and even they admit:

    What kind of an idiot thinks that the only way to prove a massacre took place is with eyewitnesses? Massacres usually involve leaving no witnesses and have been successfully prosecuted long before the advent of digital photography, and just as sucessfully covered up afterward. It gets much more difficult now, what with digital photography and the like.


    Fool, Murtha has condemned these Marines for shooting "one woman "in cold blood" who was bending over her child begging for mercy."

    You cannot prove that the woman was begging for mercy without an eyewitness or a video of the events (which no one claims exists). Forensics cannot prove what this woman was saying.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Anonymous1:05 PM

    The government could not have a single weapon and still be a police state. It doesn't need weapons when it can totally monitor and control every aspect of every person's life through surveillance.

    Which is why there will never be another revolution in this country.


    Bullshit.

    The very thing you fools don't mind your tax dollars supporting is the one thing that will crush you like every other form of opposition it has crushed everywhere else it goes. The military-industrial complex. If they had been spending those tax dollars on health care, homes and food for the homeless and hungry and free education for all, like the rest of the civilized world, we wouldn't be in this mess.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Eyes Wide Open said...

    Bart, how would you know if there was a cellphone picture or not? For a DUI lawyer in Colorado, you certainly seem to be privy to a lot of classified information.

    I don't and neither do you, thus my post demanding evidence from this virtual lynch mob.

    Go back and read my post of the article written by the Marine who was falsely accused and acquitted at trial.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Anonymous1:07 PM

    You cannot prove that the woman was begging for mercy without an eyewitness or a video of the events (which no one claims exists). Forensics cannot prove what this woman was saying.

    Now you know why he favors the DUI defenses. Big money for little work. If he actually had to defend an actual crime, he'd be found lacking. Another freeloading "rugged individualist".

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anonymous said...

    Bart, My son and his unit were carrying video cameras (illegally of course) on ops of all kinds back in the early 90's. I've seen the tapes of the insertions and ensuing firefights (they had no idea where they were, and even if they did, they have to kill you if they told you) when we weren't even at war with anyone. He was with the 1/75th Rangers. Those things are smaller and more ubiquitous now. The cat's damn well out of the bag.

    Out of the bag? The country has engaged in small unit operations short of full blown since before its creation. While individual operations may be classified, the fact that this goes on is hardly a secret.

    Max Boot wrote a good historical overview titled: "The Savage Wars of Peace: Small Wars and the Rise of American Power."

    For two more recent accounts, I would recommend "Masters of Chaos" by Linda Robinson and "Imperial Grunts" by Robert Kaplan.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Anonymous1:15 PM

    Acquittal at trial doesn't mean he was falsely accused, Bart. It means the jury didn't find enough evidence to convict. You of all people should know that, or do you think O.J. was falsely accused as well?

    ReplyDelete
  72. Anonymous1:17 PM

    Out of the bag? The country has engaged in small unit operations short of full blown since before its creation. While individual operations may be classified, the fact that this goes on is hardly a secret.

    Bart does love to miss a salient point whenever he can.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Anonymous1:21 PM

    When the white man came we had the land and they had the Bible. They taught us to pray with our eyes closed and when we opened them, they had the land and we had the Bible.

    Jomo Kenyatta (1889-1978) Prime Minister of Kenya

    ReplyDelete
  74. Anonymous1:35 PM

    "I'm a New Yorker and 9/11 was a pretty significant event for me," he said.

    "Our duty as Marines is, quite frankly, to export violence to the four corners of the globe, to make sure that this doesn't happen again."

    Ilario Pantano


    He sounds like a terrorist.

    ReplyDelete
  75. bart: There is a video from a cell phone of a Marine killing a woman begging for her life? Show me.

    We'll have to wait for the trial. The press is not privy to these photos... yet.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Anonymous1:56 PM

    Praise The Lord! And Ayn Rand! And God bless our murderous christo-fascist terrorists who export violence and the child sex trade to the four corners of the earth!

    Hagel: ‘Things Are Worse Off In The Middle East Today Than They Were Three Years Ago’


    August 1999, political organizer Ralph Reed's firm sent out a mailer to Alabama conservative Christians asking them to call then-Rep. Bob Riley (R-Ala.) and tell him to vote against legislation that would have made the U.S. commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands subject to federal wage and worker safety laws.

    Now those seven-year-old words are coming back to haunt Reed, the former executive director of the Christian Coalition and a candidate for the Republican nomination to be Georgia's lieutenant governor.

    "The radical left, the Big Labor Union Bosses, and Bill Clinton want to pass a law preventing Chinese from coming to work on the Marianas Islands," the mailer from Reed's firm said. The Chinese workers, it added, "are exposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ" while on the islands, and many "are converted to the Christian faith and return to China with Bibles in hand."

    A year earlier, the Department of the Interior -- which oversees federal policy toward the U.S. territory -- presented a very different picture of life for Chinese workers on the islands. An Interior report found that Chinese women were subject to forced abortions and that women and children were subject to forced prostitution in the local sex-tourism industry.

    It also alleged that the garment industry and other businesses set up facilities on the Northern Marianas to produce products labeled "Made in the USA," while importing workers from China and other Asian countries and paying them less than U.S. minimum wage under conditions not subject to federal safety standards.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Anonymous2:04 PM

    Murtha was born in New Martinsville, West Virginia, near the border with Ohio, and grew up in the Pittsburgh suburbs of Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania where as a youth he became an Eagle Scout. He also worked delivering newspapers and at a gas station before graduating from The Kiski School, a well respected all-boys boarding school in Saltsburg, Pennsylvania.

    He left Washington and Jefferson College in 1952 to join the Marines during the Korean War. There he earned the American Spirit Honor Medal. He rose through the ranks to become a drill instructor at Parris Island and was selected for Officer Candidate School at Quantico, Virginia. He then was assigned to the Second Marine Division, Camp Lejeune, North Carolina.

    After his service, he ran a small business, Johnstown Minute Car Wash, attended the University of Pittsburgh on the GI Bill, and received a degree in economics from Indiana University of Pennsylvania. Murtha married his wife Joyce on June 10, 1955. (They now have three children and live in Johnstown.)


    US Marine and decorated Vietnam War veteran
    Murtha remained in the Marine Corps Reserves. In 1959, then Captain Murtha took command of the 34th Special Infantry Company, Marine Corps Reserves, in Johnstown. He remained in the Reserves after his discharge from active duty until he volunteered for service in Vietnam in 1966-67, serving as a battalion staff officer (S-2 Intelligence Section), receiving the Bronze Star with Combat "V" for valor in combat, two Purple Hearts and the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. He retired from the Reserves as a colonel in 1990, receiving the Navy Distinguished Service Medal.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Anonymous2:21 PM

    He would obviously be opposed to the system that favors the rich over the poor.

    As he would have been opposed to the systen that favors the poor over the rich.

    He is actually arguing for low taxes in general as you should be able to see and would probably have been against progressive taxation.

    High taxes got us where we are today: wars abroad and a surveillance state at home.

    Make them even higher as Shoes of Peace and others would like and instead of paying money to Indians we no doubt will invade North Korea and set up batteries of lawyers to write laws that require every citizen once a month to take out the hard drive of his computer and turn it over to the government so they can copy it.

    What amuses me is that all these "useful idiot" pinkos whose visceral hatred of the "rich" (anyone making over $200,000 per year) leads them to focus almost exclusively on higher
    tax brackets for the "rich" are actually doing pro bono work for the War Machine and the coming Police State.

    These things take $$$$$ to maintain and you may have noticed it doesn't grow on trees.

    While you all worry about the tax rate on corporate dividends, the Kerrys and the Kennedys and the Bushes are laughing all the way to the bank.

    While you focus on the estate tax, they are and have been shielding their fortunes through tax loopholes and special provisions inserted in the Tax Code that largely make them exempt from the Estate Tax. How many really rich people who die leave estates that are subject to the seizure of accumulated assets that is characteristic of the Estate Tax? None unless they are very sloppy and don't have an accountant.

    That's why we have "trusts", charitable and religious deductions, etc. in this country: to shield the super rich from paying their share of taxes under our unfair tax codes that largely tax the middle class and small business owners. If small business owners didn't cheat on their taxes by hiding cash income as much as they do most of them would go bankrupt.

    I don't blame them. You think people who are smart enough to start accumulating some significant money are going to let $30,000 per year pinkos steal it from them to fund Greenpeace?

    Why do the big Wall Street upper echelons get "bonuses" each year instead of salaries? Think about it.

    It's the guy who bought a deli then opened up a chain of restaurants who gets soaked by the Estate tax.

    That, no doubt, is too estoteric for our socialist inclined friends. How many tax lawyers are socialists?

    It's beside the point anyway because people who do not understand the concept of laissez faire capitalism usually do not because they are uncomfortable with the morality which would make a person endorse the concept of ownership of the fruits of one's labor.

    They sure have all you "lefties" distracted but people without much knowledge about a subject or enough intellectual curiosity to find out the actual facts about it are easily distracted by those who simply play to their prejudices.

    How can people be so naive to think those in power are going to ever pass laws that actually penalize their cronies, their major backers, and themselves?

    If you really want to see that "pinko" Ted Kennedy turn red and have apoplexy, start advocating the repeal of the use of charitable trusts to shield family fortunes from the Estate Tax.

    To play to the calls of the unwashed masses on the Left who cry out for confiscatory tax rates the Government will simply raise the tax rates on everyone, make doormen and small business owners cough up even more and distribute the additional funds to support every program all of you hate, and insert a few more "loopholes" for the favored few.

    Because it's not tax brackets or "tax cuts" as you all seem to believe that shield the huge fortunes of the truly rich.

    It's tax loopholes. You people should take a year off and familiarize yourselves with the IRS Tax Code and with the methods of tax avoidance utilized by the "rich" (i.e., people like Bill and Hillary Clinton and John and Teresa Kerry, etc.) and then you might have a little more understanding of what is going on in this country and why the answer is drastically lower tax rates for everyone, less government spending, and a revision of the Tax Code which eliminates all the loopholes deliberately contained within the Tax Codes by the use of deliberately ambiguous language.

    Rather than sitting there resenting the "rich", your time could have been better spent acquiring some actual knowledge about the facts underlying the issues you love to mouth off about and that is even truer on the "left" than on the "right."

    At least the "right" usually knows exactly what it is doing: deliberately spreading propaganda on the Internet to suit their purposes.

    The "left" is still (figuratively) thumbing through the forward to the Communist Manifesto.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Anonymous2:32 PM

    He would obviously be opposed to the system that favors the rich over the poor.

    As he would have been opposed to the systen that favors the poor over the rich.

    He is actually arguing for low taxes in general as you should be able to see and would probably have been against progressive taxation.

    High taxes got us where we are today: wars abroad and a surveillance state at home.

    Make them even higher as Shoes of Peace and others would like and instead of paying money to Indians we no doubt will invade North Korea and set up batteries of lawyers to write laws that require every citizen once a month to take out the hard drive of his computer and turn it over to the government so they can copy it.

    What amuses me is that all these "useful idiot" pinkos whose visceral hatred of the "rich" (anyone making over $200,000 per year) leads them to focus almost exclusively on higher
    tax brackets for the "rich" are actually doing pro bono work for the War Machine and the coming Police State.

    These things take $$$$$ to maintain and you may have noticed it doesn't grow on trees.

    While you all worry about the tax rate on corporate dividends, the Kerrys and the Kennedys and the Bushes are laughing all the way to the bank.

    While you focus on the estate tax, they are and have been shielding their fortunes through tax loopholes and special provisions inserted in the Tax Code that largely make them exempt from the Estate Tax. How many really rich people who die leave estates that are subject to the seizure of accumulated assets that characterizes the Estate Tax? Very few, that's how many.

    That's why we have "trusts", charitable and religious deductions, etc. in this country: to shield the super rich from paying their share of taxes under our unfair, confiscatory tax codes that largely tax the middle class, the lower "upper class" and especially the small business owners. If small business owners didn't "cheat" on their taxes by hiding cash income as much as they do most of them would go bankrupt.

    I don't support cheating on one's taxes but I understand their motivation. You think people who are smart enough to start accumulating some significant money are going to let $40,000 per year pinkos steal it from them to fund Greenpeace?

    Why do the big Wall Street upper echelons get "bonuses" each year instead of salaries? Think about it.

    It's the guy who bought a deli, then opened up a chain of restaurants who gets soaked by the Estate tax.

    That, no doubt, is too estoteric for our socialist inclined friends. How many tax lawyers are socialists?

    It's beside the point anyway because people who do not understand the concept of laissez faire capitalism usually do not because they are uncomfortable with the morality which would make a person endorse the concept of ownership of the fruits of one's labor.

    They sure have all you "lefties" distracted but people without much knowledge about a subject or enough intellectual curiosity to find out the actual facts about it are easy to distract by those who simply play to their prejudices.

    How can people be so naive to think those in power are going to ever pass laws that actually penalize their cronies, their major backers, and themselves?

    If you really want to see that "pinko" Ted Kennedy turn red and have apoplexy, start advocating the repeal of the use of charitable trusts to shield family fortunes from the Estate Tax.

    To play to the calls of the unwashed masses on the Left who spend all thier time crying out for confiscatory tax rates the Government will simply raise the tax rates on everyone, make doormen and small business owners cough up even more and distribute the additional funds to support every program all of you hate.

    Wish all you unsophisticated socialists and mixed-economists would realize it's not tax brackets or "tax cuts" that shield the huge fortunes of the truly rich.

    It's tax loopholes. You people should take a year off and familiarize yourselves with the IRS Tax Code and with the methods of tax avoidance utilized by the "rich" (i.e., people like Bill and Hillary Clinton and John and Teresa Kerry, etc.) and then you might have a little more understanding of what is going on in this country and why the answer is drastically lower tax rates for everyone, less government spending, and a revision of the Tax Code which eliminates all the loopholes deliberately contained within the Tax Codes by the use of deliberately ambiguous language.

    At least the "right" blogosphere usually knows exactly what it is doing: deliberately spreading propaganda on the Internet to suit their purposes.

    The "left" is still (figuratively) thumbing through the forward to the Communist Manifesto.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Eyes Wide Open said...

    On Feb. 6, 2006, U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales launched a convoluted attack on the Fourth Amendment before the Senate Judiciary Committee. This assault on the meaning of the Fourth Amendment is, in my estimation, the biggest leap forward for totalitarianism in this country.

    Ooooh, this sounds serious...

    Alberto Gonzales: The Fourth Amendment has never been understood to require warrants in all circumstances. The Supreme Court has upheld warrantless searches at the border and has allowed warrantless sobriety checkpoints., e.g., Michigan v. Dept. of State Police v. Sitz, 496 U.S. 444 (1990)

    This has been the understanding of the 4th Amendment since its enactment. The note "e.g" means that the cited case is but one of many cases to hold this.

    Alberto Gonzales: "The key question under the Fourth Amendment is not whether there was a warrant, but whether the search was reasonable. Determining the reasonableness of a search for Fourth Amendment purposes requires balancing privacy interests with the government's interests and ensuring that we maintain appropriate safeguards. United States v. Knights, 534 U.S. 112, 118- 19 (2001). Although the terrorist surveillance program may implicate substantial privacy interests, the government's interest in protecting our nation is compelling...."

    The above statement from Alberto Gonzales is breathtaking. Notice how he never says the "terrorist" surveillance program satisfies the Fourth Amendment's probable cause provision. Instead, he says it passes the neoconservative "reasonableness" standard.


    Hold it here...

    1) Neo-conservatism is a short hand for the foreign policy of largely Jewish Democrats who maintained their belief in internationalism after Vietnam, left for the GOP and were partial architects of the Reagan and Bush Doctrines. It has nothing to do with the 4th Amendment.

    2) The reasonableness standard for interpreting the 4th Amendment is written into the plain text of the Amendment itself. Read it.

    Then, he uses three different types of examples that satisfy the probable cause requirement to imply that the Fourth Amendment doesn't really say what it says about probable cause.

    You do not need warrants for reasonable searches like gathering intelligence.

    If the search is unreasonable, then you need probable cause that a crime has been committed to gain a warrant to conduct the search.

    Probable cause is not the standard for determining whether the 4th Amendment requires a warrant in the first instance.

    BTW, bart. I don't think you are a DUI lawyer in Colorado and I think I could prove that on this blog in two seconds if I chose to but I do not choose to because your identity or pseudo identity is your property and nobody else's.

    I don't give a damn what you think. I didn't identify myself on this blog as anyone but "bart." Some of the other people who post here think that they have identified me.

    What I think you are is a lawyer working for the government, and it might be you were assigned to this blog...

    Actually, I am Batman and Karl Rove has a direct line to my Bat Phone.

    Paranoia will destroy ya, dude...

    ReplyDelete
  81. DavidByron said...

    Anonymous 3:56: It should also be noted that Clinton didn't go into Bosnia unilaterally. He did it under the aegis of NATO. The world supported that action. It did not support the invasion of Iraq.

    You need a UN resolution not an agreement by NATO. Although I guess it's worth mentioning that using NATO for aggression like that is against the NATO charter. The US attack on Yugoslavia over Kosovo was not backed by the UN and most countries of the world, including Russia, China and India opposed the criminal aggression by Clinton.


    Really?

    Please point to the provision in our Constitution where the United States has ceded it sovereignty and war making power to the UN.

    Mr. Clinton properly gathered an alliance of the willing to stop the genocide in the Balkans. He avoided taking this issue to the UN because allies of the war criminals committing the genocide had vetoes in the Security Council.

    Mr. Bush should have ignored the UN as well, but Tony Blair insisted. The result was predictable. The oil for food bribed allies of Saddam blocked a resolution.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Anonymous said...

    Acquittal at trial doesn't mean he was falsely accused, Bart. It means the jury didn't find enough evidence to convict. You of all people should know that, or do you think O.J. was falsely accused as well?

    A military courts martials tend to favor the prosecution because you do not get clueless juries like in the OJ case, they are juries of sergeants or officers. The conviction rates are around 80%.

    The fact that several accused military members have been acquitted in these trials indicates that the military is reacting to the politics and prosecuting weak cases.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Anonymous3:40 PM

    anonymous said:
    "I am raising a beer to Jane Fonda today and all the men who fought in the wars prior to Vietnam."

    Please inform yourself better on US military actions before Vietnam. We didn't lose Vietnam, saying that is just a diversionary tactic to take the public eye away from other unjust murder-sprees, er, wars. Propaganda can be sneakier than you might think.

    anonymous said:
    "O'Ryan if you had ever been to Cuba your opiinion might be worth something. It isn't. Castro wasn't a communist. Not at first. Guess who drove him into the arms of the waiting communists? Guess who always does that, and is still trying to do it today in places like Venezuela. Why? Because it's their way or the highway. Who? The oil companies, the sugar companies, big business is more important than the little people, so go suck on that."


    F'n A, someone gets it right. Far too often I see that many contributors here don't really know much about how things work with the US when it comes to "foreign policy". Have any of you read Chomsky's books? Many of you could use it, especially the supposed advocates of peace and justice that seem to have no real knowledge of modern history.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Anonymous3:41 PM

    Bart...A military courts martials tend to favor the prosecution because you do not get clueless juries like in the OJ case, they are juries of sergeants or officers. The conviction rates are around 80%.

    Bart's contempt for the civilian judicial system shows. No wonder he prefers a military dictatorship.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Anonymous3:45 PM

    Bart...Please point to the provision in our Constitution where the United States has ceded it sovereignty and war making power to the UN.

    Please point to the provision in the Constitution where the U.S. government has ceded itself the right to be the Supreme Absolute Overlord With Total Dominion over the entire planet and not just another member of the many nations thereon.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Anonymous3:47 PM

    anonymous said:
    "I am raising a beer to Jane Fonda today and all the men who fought in the wars prior to Vietnam."

    Please inform yourself better on US military actions before Vietnam. We didn't lose Vietnam, saying that is just a diversionary tactic to take the public eye away from other unjust murder-sprees, er, wars. Propaganda can be sneakier than you might think.


    Point taken. Even Chomsky says we won in Vietnam. We just didn't quit the game soon enough, as all bad gamblers are wont to do.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Anonymous3:48 PM

    bart said:
    "A military courts martials tend to favor the prosecution because you do not get clueless juries like in the OJ case, they are juries of sergeants or officers. The conviction rates are around 80%.

    The fact that several accused military members have been acquitted in these trials indicates that the military is reacting to the politics and prosecuting weak cases."

    Nice conclusion. This just as easily could indicate that the all-too corrupt military is letting them off the hook. Again, your conclusions are based on trust/faith, rather than the recent record of our government or military's integrity and trustworthiness. Flushed down the toilet...

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous3:49 PM

    bart said:
    I hate liberals. I want President Bush to imprison journalists, but only the journalists who write bad things about President Bush. Judith Miller and Jeff Gannon/Guckert are A-OK with me.

    shooter242 said:
    I can't get excited about this 'outrage du jour', I just don't think lying and avoiding responsibility for one's actions are important. Not when there are Democrats to smear with conflated charges.

    I might have "changed" or "distorted" these quotes, but that's not really important according to the Bush Administration, now is it?

    ReplyDelete
  89. Anonymous3:49 PM

    Bart...Paranoia will destroy ya, dude...

    Considering this comes from a guy who wets his diaper when another guy who wears his diaper for a hat says nasty things about the US, it would almost be funny if it weren't so pathetic. Pathetic is never funny.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Anonymous3:52 PM

    Please point to the provision in the Constitution where the U.S. government has ceded itself the right to be the Supreme Absolute Overlord With Total Dominion over the entire planet and not just another co-equal member of the many nations thereon.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Anonymous3:54 PM

    anonymous:
    "Point taken. Even Chomsky says we won in Vietnam. We just didn't quit the game soon enough, as all bad gamblers are wont to do."

    People are able to agree that Vietnam was a failure because they don't realize they have conflicting viewpoints. Those in the Pentagon called it a failure because we had to quit at all! Overall, we "won" because the goal of destroying Vietnam was successful. They can call it a failure for propaganda purposes and be comfortable with that because they say it was a failure to take those acts of destruction further.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Anonymous4:32 PM

    Bart, today:
    "I don't give a damn what you think. I didn't identify myself on this blog as anyone but "bart." Some of the other people who post here think that they have identified me."

    Bart, on March 12, 2006:
    "I am a criminal defense and business attorney working a solo practice in the mountains of Colorado."

    Bart's Blogger profile contains a broken link:

    http://depalmab2.blogspot.com

    Searching "Bart Depalma" returns as the first hit:

    "Bart Depalma is an experienced trial attorney who represents clients in DUI defense, DWI defense, criminal defense, insurance defense, construction defect, ...
    www.depalmalaw.com/"


    The depalmalaw.com web site has an Attorney Profile page which states:

    "Mr. DePalma's birth name is Harold Arlan DePalma ... Bart DePalma lives where he practices in the beautiful town of Woodland Park nestled in the mountains above Colorado Springs, Colorado."

    Give it up, Bart! You are either Harold Arlan DePalma, or you are trying to frame him and ruin his reputation.

    Finally, the depalmalaw.com website has a Contact Us page with the following information:

    The DePalma Law Firm, LLC
    18401 East Highway 24, Suite 209B
    Woodland Park, CO 80863

    (719) 687-1578 (Office)
    (719) 687-1586 (Fax)
    bart@depalmalaw.com

    ReplyDelete
  93. Anonymous5:41 PM

    ender said...
    Anon @ 4:32

    Totally uncool.

    Glenn you seeing this?

    I positively detest Bart but that isn't right.


    Bart probably posted that himself. All that info is readily available to anyone by using Google. Don't worry about it. Most of it is on his website. He is an attorney and always looking for clients.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous5:53 PM

    Shooter has actually hit upon the granddaddy of them all. The very first the aristocracy decided they should "think" for us all


    The Tax Foundation is the oldest non-profit tax think tank in the country, founded in 1937. Their stated mission is "to educate taxpayers about state and federal tax burdens," and supports simplicity, neutrality, transparency and a pro-growth approach to the tax code.

    It was founded at the University Club in New York. Founding members included:

    Alfred P. Sloan, General Motors Corporation, chairman
    Donaldson Brown, General Motors Corporation financial vice president
    William S. Farish, Standard Oil Company, President
    Lewis H. Brown, President of the Johns-Manville Corporation
    Its first chairman was Lewis H. Brown.

    The Tax Foundation publishes studies on state on federal tax burdens, costs of tax compliance, and others like the impact of cigarette taxes on smuggling. The major public campaign of the Tax Foundation is its annual Tax Freedom Day, which calculates the total state and federal tax burden of the nation as a percentage of national income, and converts that into the portion of the year taxpayers must "work to pay taxes".

    Funding
    The Tax Foundation is funded partially by private donations from members, but is primarily funded by corporate donations, with limited foundation funding from the Koch Foundation, Earhart Foundation, etc.

    Personnel
    Scott A. Hodge, executive director
    William Ahern, Director of Communications
    Julie Burden, Director of Development


    I don't even buy new cars from those guys. Why would I "buy" their advice on taxes.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Anonymous5:55 PM

    Shooter...I presume you're familiar with the quote about evil and good men?

    With a brain like yours, I'm surprised you aren't making license plates someplace instead of quoting bumper stickers.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Anonymous6:04 PM

    Bart... I have very low tolerance for people who...

    Want to take more of my money in taxes.

    Want to pass more laws telling me what I can and cannot do.

    Praise those who give aid and comfort to the enemy as "patriots."

    Condemn those who want to fight the enemy as "traitors."

    Make excuses for foreign fascists.

    And take the opportunity on Memorial Day to call our troops "fascists."

    If this is your definition of a "liberal," then I do hate liberals.


    Maybe you should live on your own island. Take Shooter with you. If the two of you can breed, and something tells me you will try, maybe you can repopulate the earth with your hellspawn. 70% of America has a very low tolerance for either of you.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Anonymous6:04 PM

    "If this is your definition of a "liberal," then I do hate liberals."

    Hey bart, wake up! I think you were dreaming again. That last post was ridiculous. You actually believe that criticizing your government amounts to giving "aid & comfort" to the "enemy".

    What flavor you got there, grape? I like watermelon.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anonymous6:07 PM

    shooter says:
    "The communist regimes are certainly aggressive and the Islamo-fascists are bent on converting the world or destroying it. Would you prefer to be living under one of those regimes instead?"

    Wow. Rewriting history is easy to do if you never learned the facts in the first place.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Anonymous6:11 PM

    After the Business Plot failed, they founded the first "think tank". It's all been down hill ever since.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Anonymous6:16 PM

    What Bush Appointee hasn't 'changed his mind'? Powell? Rummy? Rice? Bush? All clowns. They appoint more and more insane people. They stooped to the level of banning books like "America Deceived" by E.A. Blayre III. They are targeting the internet next. Here's the last link before Google Books gets in line with the banning Gestapo:

    http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0

    ReplyDelete
  101. Anonymous9:15 PM

    All for nothing. Our soldiers all died for nothing, except for George Bush's "reprehensible and vainglorius" ego. Celebrate that.


    Afghans Riot After Deadly Crash by U.S. Military Truck

    Thousands of angry demonstrators rioted across the Afghan capital today after an American military truck crashed into a dozen cars on the north side of town, killing and wounding several people.

    Gunfire rang out across the city as the police and army soldiers tried to control the violence while rioters rampaged through the streets burning and looting a dozen offices, cars and police posts. At least 14 people were dead and scores injured by the end of the day, hospital officials said.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Mom Explains in Tribute to Fallen Son

    May 29, 2005 -- - Georgette Frank's son Lance Cpl. Philip Frank, 20, was killed in Fallujah by sniper fire on April 8, 2004. She wrote this essay on the real meaning of Memorial Day.

    Dear Friends,


    In the past I would look forward to Memorial Day. It represented the beginning of the summer season at the Jersey Shore and a three-day weekend.


    Then we lost our Phil in Iraq.


    Memorial Day has now become a day of reflection and remembrance. It is a day to remember all of our Fallen Heroes from all of the wars. It is a day to think about the families that will forever grieve for their lost loved one. It is a day to be thankful to those who have served and made the ultimate sacrifice. They fought and died to win the freedom and democracy that we Americans cherish so dearly. They also fought and died to bring that same freedom and democracy to the people of other countries as well.


    As the family of a Fallen Hero, we are so proud of our loved ones who knowingly put themselves in harm's way so that they could make a difference in the lives of others.


    I would like to share an excerpt from a sermon by John Hagee:


    "I want you to close your eyes and picture in your mind the soldier at Valley Forge, as he holds his musket in his bloody hand.


    "He stands barefoot in the snow, starved from lack of food, wounded from months of battle and emotionally scarred for the eternity away from his family surrounded by nothing but death and carnage of war. He stands though, with fire in his eyes and victory on his breath. He looks at us now in anger and disgust and tells us this. ...


    "I gave you a birthright of freedom born in the Constitution and now your children graduate too illiterate to read it. I fought in the snow barefoot to give you the freedom to vote and you stay at home because it rains. I left my family destitute to give you the freedom of speech, and you remain silent on critical issues, because it might be bad for business. I orphaned my children to give you a government to serve you and it has stolen democracy from the people.


    "It's the soldier, not the poet, who gives you the freedom of speech.

    "It's the soldier, not the campus organizer, who allows you to demonstrate.

    "It's the soldier, who salutes the flag, serves the flag, whose coffin is draped with the flag that allows the protester to burn the flag!


    "Lord, hold our troops in your loving hands. Protect them as they protect us. Bless them and their families for the selfless acts they perform for us in our time of need. I ask this in the name of Jesus, our Lord and Savior. Amen."


    Take a moment this Memorial Day to share the pride that we, the families of the Fallen Heroes, feel.


    Georgette

    http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/story?id=797936&page=1

    ReplyDelete
  103. Anonymous10:09 PM

    Bart said, "Please point to the provision in our Constitution where the United States has ceded it sovereignty and war making power to the UN."

    Article VI, paragraph two:

    "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made,under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary Notwithstanding."

    From THE CRIME OF WAR: FROM NUREMBERG TO FALLUJAH by Nicholas Davies for Z magazine, and found here: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/
    International_War_Crimes/
    Nuremberg_Fallujah.html

    "The treaty that outlawed the waging of aggressive war was the General Treaty for the Renunciation of War, otherwise known as the Kellogg-Briand Pact or the Pact of Paris. It was named for U.S. Secretary of State Frank B. Kellogg and the French statesperson Aristide Briand. It was signed by President Coolidge in 1928 and duly ratified by the U.S. Senate. It was the result of a decade of negotiations and lesser diplomatic achievements to prevent war and was motivated by the horror and tragedy of World War I. In 1932, the new Secretary of State, Henry L. Stimson, made the following statement regarding its significance: 'War between nations was renounced by the signatories of the Kellogg-Briand Treaty. This means that it has become throughout practically the entire world... an illegal thing. Hereafter, when engaged in armed conflict, either one or both of them must be termed violators of this general treaty law .... We denounce them as law breakers.'"

    "The convictions of German leaders at Nuremberg for the crime of waging aggressive war were based entirely on the Kellogg-Briand Pact and the history of lesser treaties that led up to its signing. The Nuremberg Judgment states: 'The question is, what was the legal effect of this pact? The nations who signed the pact or adhered to it unconditionally condemned recourse to war for the future as an instrument of policy, and expressly renounced it. After the signing of the pact, any nation resorting to war as an instrument of national policy breaks the pact. In the opinion of the Tribunal, the solemn renunciation of war as an instrument of national policy necessarily involves the proposition that such a war is illegal in international law; and that those who plan and wage such a war, with its inevitable and terrible consequences, are committing a crime in so doing.'

    "In 1945, the United Nations Charter, Article 2 Clause 4, reiterated the principles of the KelloggBriand Pact, stating, "All members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state." Article 39 established the authority of the Security Council to 'determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression' and to 'decide what measures shall be taken.'"


    The rest of the article is well worth reading, but the significant point is: per the Constitution, when we enter into international treaties, those treaties become "the law of the land," and we HAVE signed treaties outlawing unilateral use of aggressive war and prohibiting use of war as an instrument of policy. Thus, we have not only violated international law, but, in our doing, we have violated the Constitution as well.

    Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and all those in Congress who authorized use of force against Irag are war criminals or parties to the commission of war crimes, and, yes, our invasion of Iraq without UN Security Council approval was, and remains, illegal.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Anonymous10:13 PM

    "All for nothing. Our soldiers all died for nothing, except for George Bush's "reprehensible and vainglorius" ego. Celebrate that."

    I must reiterate that some propaganda techniques are trickier than others. Nobody is dying for a man's ego. They are dying for something much more concrete.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous10:22 PM

    "It's the soldier, not the poet, who gives you the freedom of speech.

    "It's the soldier, not the campus organizer, who allows you to demonstrate.

    "It's the soldier, who salutes the flag, serves the flag, whose coffin is draped with the flag that allows the protester to burn the flag!"

    This is fucking twisted. I don't buy the glory and heroics of your war stories. They were and are dying for the causes of men who would have us working 70-hour weeks in coal mines from the age of 10 if they could still get away with it. And they don't even know why they are shooting people! For democracy? Fat fucking chance.

    The soldier gives me my freedom of speech? That's funny, I thought the law did that. Soldiers don't give, they take away. Sorry to burst your bubble, but nearly every war has been bullshit.

    Memorial Day sickens me. I am supposed to accept the glorification of dead soldiers by the very men responsible for their death? For me, this is a day of remembrance and mourning for entirely different reasons.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Anonymous10:29 PM

    robert 1014, extremely informative post and article. I didn't know those things before.

    james: Nobody is dying for a man's ego. They are dying for something much more concrete.

    Yes. The egos, vainglorious delusions, testosterone-fueled lust for adventure and "war games" and the $$$ of a group of people, not one man.

    Can the day be far away when anyone who doesn't celebrate the "military" is convicted of treason a priori?

    ReplyDelete
  107. Someone is confused about the law:

    2) The reasonableness standard for interpreting the 4th Amendment is written into the plain text of the Amendment itself. Read it.
    ...
    You do not need warrants for reasonable searches like gathering intelligence.


    Ummmm, "reasonable" has been read to mean "pretty much, when a warrant is issued, based on probable cause supported by oath or affirmation, and describing the place to be searched and the prson or thigns to be seized."

    So yes, if you're gathering "intelligence" (like, say, on your political opponents):

    Tell it to the judge, Dubya!

    ... and be ready to explain your probable cause and such. That's what FISA, a law intended to take care of the exigencies of proper intelligence surveillance, said must be done.

    Cheers,

    Yup. Pretty much "written into the laguage itself".

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  108. Anonymous10:39 PM

    bart said...
    Mom Explains in Tribute to Fallen Son


    Blow it out yer ass, Bart. If that ignorant woman was a poor enough mother to let her kid die for nothing, that's her problem. Here's what he died for...

    Right about the time the business plot failed to take FDR out of office, the American fascist (GM, Standard Oil, etc.) machine that Bart and Shooter support, and that ignorant woman's son died for, was doing something worse than this:


    On the morning of August 2, 2002, millions of Americans turned
    on their TVs to see an unusual spectacle: a high-level corporate executive in handcuffs, being paraded by law enforcement officials in front of the news camera. The executive was Scott Sullivan, chief financial officer of telecommunications firm WorldCom. Along with fellow executive David Myers, Sullivan was charged with hiding $3.85 billion in company expenses, conspiracy to commit securities fraud, and filing false information with the Securities and Exchange Commission. The combined maximum penalties from the charges were 65 years. In response to the arrests, attorney general John Ashcroft told reporters,“Corporate executives who cheat investors, steal savings, and squander pensions will meet the judgment they fear and the punishment they deserve.”

    Now consider a different crime, committed by the leadership of
    General Motors, together with Standard Oil of California, Firestone Tire and Rubber Company, B. F. Phillips Petroleum, and Mac Manufacturing.

    In 1936, the five companies formed National City Lines, a holding
    company that proceeded to buy electric trolley lines and tear up the tracks in cities across the nation. Each time it destroyed a local trolley system, National City would license the rights to operate a new system to a local franchisee, under the stipulation that the system convert to diesel-powered General Motors buses.

    By 1949, more than 100 electric transit systems in 45 systems had
    been torn up and converted. In April of that year, a federal jury convicted GM and the other firms of conspiracy to commit anti-trust violations. But the judge set the fine for each company at $5,000. Seven executives were fined one dollar each. After the conviction, the companies went back to purchasing transit systems, removing electric trolley lines, and replacing them with buses. By 1955, 88 percent of the country’s electric streetcar network was gone.

    Both the Scott Sullivan case and the National City Lines case fit
    the traditional definition of crime: laws were broken, the legal system intervened. But the second case suggests that the larger the crime, the more the boundaries between “crime” and “business as usual” begin to blur. As Atlanta mayor and former United Nations ambassador Andrew Young once said, “Nothing is illegal if 100 businessmen decide to do it.”

    Young may have overstated things a bit, but the observation does
    encapsulate a basic truth about American society. Business does tend to get its way, acting by means of a nebulous force known as “corporate power” that drives much of what happens in both the public and private spheres. But there are a few details to work out. What is the nature of this power? How does it exactly work? Does the law instantly conform to the needs and wants of those 100 businessmen? What happens when corporate America finds its wishes thwarted by constitutional barriers? Who decides what is “public” and what is “private?” Who defines the nature of “crime” versus “business as usual?”

    In trying to answer such questions, one challenge is merely to begin seeing a phenomenon that surrounds us so completely and continuously.

    I’ve spent most of my working life in the corporate world, founding and running a company that publishes how-to books for computer users. In that world the corporation is the air you breathe. There is no questioning whether it is a good thing or a bad thing. It just is. Nor is there any thought about where the corporation this particular institutional form comes from. You assume that corporations have always been a natural part of the American system of “democracy and free enterprise.”


    Fascism. The dumb bitch's kid died for fascism. No honor in that.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anonymous10:48 PM

    anon at 1:56:

    Praise The Lord! And Ayn Rand! And God bless our murderous christo-fascist terrorists who export violence and the child sex trade to the four corners of the earth!

    Maybe it's not in the comic books you read but Ayn Rand was against this country's entry into every war including World War II and she wrote repeatedly (and explained why) that the Christian Conservatives were the biggest threat in this nation's political
    history which is a good part of the reason she didn't support the candidacy of or vote for Ronald Reagan.

    It's the seething hatred for her on the part of the Christian Right (led by the vitriolic rage of Willam F. Buckley since at least the 60's as he hated her ideas with a passion) that has fueled an industry of right wing propaganda writers who have set out to convince both the sincere but uninformed left and the right that she was a fascist, which is one of the biggest laughs since Aristophanes.

    But don't let the facts confuse you. People like you seldom do when as they are either fools with an agenda or cunning people with an agenda who mistake their entire audience for uninformed fools.

    ReplyDelete
  110. ender:

    If he ["Bart"] wants his personal info listed on this site then he can list it.

    When he cites his background as support for his truthfulness, veracity, or expertise -- which he has in the past; just Google "site:glenngreenwald.blogspot.com bart criminal prosecutor";
    one fine example is here; search "criminal prosecutor" in the page) -- his character can be called into question. You know, FRE Rule 608 or Rule 703....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  111. Robert1014 said...

    Bart said, "Please point to the provision in our Constitution where the United States has ceded it sovereignty and war making power to the UN."

    Article VI, paragraph two:

    "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made,under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary Notwithstanding."


    This is true. Now show me the treaty where Congress ceded the power to declare war to the UN.

    "The treaty that outlawed the waging of aggressive war was the General Treaty for the Renunciation of War, otherwise known as the Kellogg-Briand Pact or the Pact of Paris.

    Not quite. Here is what the operative language of the Kellog Briand Pact states:

    ARTICLE I

    The High Contracting Parties solemly declare in the names of their respective peoples that they condemn recourse to war for the solution of international controversies, and renounce it, as an instrument of national policy in their relations with one another.

    In short, this parties to this treaty agreed not to wage war of any kind on one another. This Pact does not cede our warmaking powers to anyone else and we have not waged war on any of the signatories except for the Axis countries who violated it in WWII.

    "In 1945, the United Nations Charter, Article 2 Clause 4, reiterated the principles of the KelloggBriand Pact, stating, "All members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state."

    This is actually a fundamental change from the Kellog Briand Pact. In this treaty, the US promised not to wage wars of conquest to take territory or to take over the government of other countries, whether they are UN members or not. This provision does not cede our warmaking power to the UN and we have never violated this provision.

    Article 39 established the authority of the Security Council to 'determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression' and to 'decide what measures shall be taken.'"

    This provision only allows the Security Council to independently identify threats and ask for military contributions from UN members to deal with the threats. It does not claim to be the sole war making authority in the world and no member has ever ceded its sovereignty to wage war to the Security Council.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Anonymous11:07 PM

    Bart,

    If Georgette wants to be part of American fascism she should do it in private, along with you and Shooter, the clowns at Freep Redbait.org and LGF and this fascist idiot. Nobody gives a shit anymore.

    I had never heard of this before, about GM and Standard Oil putting electric trolley's out of business. Apparently 70 years later these people, fascists I guess is what you would call them, or common criminals in suits, are still trying to rewrite history. I googled and found this articlecalled The Streetcar Conspiracy, written by...


    Bradford Snell is a former U.S. Senate Counsel. His 1974 report gave national prominence to the General Motors/National City Lines conspiracy case. His history of GM will be published in 2002 by Alfred A. Knopf.

    Editor's Note: The following article was originally published in The New Electric Railway Journal in Autumn 1995. In it, Mr. Snell responsed to an earlier article by Van Wilkins, who claimed commuter rail lines vanished due to causes other than the conspiracy by GM and other companies to put them out of business.


    I'm going to look for his history of GM.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous11:10 PM

    It's the seething hatred for her on the part of the Christian Right (led by the vitriolic rage of Willam F. Buckley since at least the 60's as he hated her ideas with a passion) that has fueled an industry of right wing propaganda writers who have set out to convince both the sincere but uninformed left and the right that she was a fascist, which is one of the biggest laughs since Aristophanes.

    Everyone hates her... boo-hoo...

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous11:11 PM

    More from the article whose URL I provided previously:

    There is actually an internationally accepted standard in international law for "preventive" or "preemptive" military action, known as the Caroline case. In 1837, an insurgency was raging, not in Iraq, but in Canada. A small, U.S.-owned steamer named the Caroline was being used to smuggle anti-British insurgents and shipments of arms across the Niagara River. One night, British forces crossed the river in small boats and attacked the Caroline as it was moored on the American side of the river, killing many of its passengers and crew and setting the ship on fire. The British then towed the Caroline away from the shore and set it adrift to plunge over Niagara Falls in a fiery spectacle.

    This incident raised warlike passions on both sides of the border. Americans regarded it as an act of aggression while the British argued that it was an act of preemptive self-defense. The matter was eventually resolved peacefully after an exchange of letters between U.S. Secretary of State Daniel Webster and British Foreign Secretary Lord Ashburton in which both countries accepted the principle, "Respect for the inviolable character of the territory of independent nations is the most essential foundation of civilization," and that this can only be legally overridden by "a necessity of self-defense, instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation," and "the act... must be limited by that necessity, and kept clearly within it."

    This became the accepted international standard for preemptive military action, and was cited as such by the judges at Nuremberg using Webster's precise wording. The German defendants at Nuremberg defended their invasion of Norway on grounds very similar to those cited by President Bush today, claiming a reasonable fear that Norway would become a base for an Allied attack on Germany. The judges rejected this argument, writing that the plans for an attack on Norway "were not made for the purpose of forestalling an imminent Allied landing, but, at the most, that they might prevent an Allied occupation at some future date." The court likewise rejected German claims that "Germany alone could decide... whether preventive action was a necessity, and that in making her decision her judgment was conclusive," ruling that this "must ultimately be subject to investigation and adjudication if international law is ever to be enforced."

    Based on the principles established by the Caroline case and cited at Nuremberg, preventive or preemptive self-defense was not a legitimate rationale for invading Iraq, which posed no imminent threat to the United States. The fact that no "weapons of mass destruction" were found, and that their absence was suspected all along within the U.S. government, serves to demonstrate the sound rationale behind these principles.


    Again, I recommend this as an informative article to all interested parties who wish to understand how we have violated international law and committed war crimes in our invasion of Iraq.

    ReplyDelete
  115. Anonymous11:16 PM

    Eyes Wide Open said...zzzzz


    You do realize you are twice as annoying and three times as clueless as Shooter or Bart.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Anonymous11:16 PM

    bart: Georgette FRANK? John HaGEE? Ple-a-s-s-s-s-e.

    Also, her article might be worth reading if we still had a draft in this country and her son had been drafted or if the country were in imminent peril of a threat from outside.

    As it is, she put her son in harm's way for $$$ and lies and I have never met a single mother in my life who would have done that.

    It's an act in betrayal of the whole concept of maternal love.

    I personally would not even let a dog of mine enlist (unless we were being threatened by another nation) if they told me it would stop every stateless "terrist" in the world and they paid me one hundred billion dollars to do so.

    I doubt Glenn would either but he can speak for himself on that point.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Anonymous12:05 AM

    Keep talking Bush, Cheney, Bart and Shooter...

    Defendants Sunk by Their Testimony

    ReplyDelete
  118. Anonymous12:09 AM

    eyes wide open:
    "Yes. The egos, vainglorious delusions, testosterone-fueled lust for adventure and "war games" and the $$$ of a group of people, not one man."

    They don't want adventure. They want to keep their power. That is all.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anonymous3:35 AM

    Wave of Bombings Kills at Least 40 in Iraq
    Two CBS Newsmen Slain Along With Soldier; Correspondent Critically Wounded


    Meanwhile here are the latest opinion articles on antiwar.com. You can go there if you want and read any of these articles yourselves.

    Honor the War Dead but Question US Wars: Eland
    Massacre Story Mars Memorial Day: Jim Lobe
    Khamenei in Control and Ready to 'Haggle': Porter
    Best Congress Money Can Buy: Gordon Prather
    My Lai, Haditha, & Whitewashers: Ben Tanosborn


    Quotable
    A tyrant has succeeded in his search for absolute power when his own people fear to question his actions.
    – Ramman Kenoun

    Here are the latest news stories listed there:
    News
    Updated May 30, 2006 - 1:00 AM EDT

    Bloody Scenes Haunt a Marine

    The Shame of Kilo Company

    Afghans Seized by Fury Over US Collision

    US Policy Was to Shoot Korean Refugees

    Iran Set Up for Big Gains in Iraq

    Khamenei in Control and Ready to 'Haggle'

    Six Nations Plan to Sign Off on Iran Package

    Ex-Iraq Commander: Rumsfeld 'Wasted US Lives in Iraq'

    Emotional Bush Says US Must Finish Military Campaign in Iraq


    To anon, who apparently has a bell go off in his home every time someone writes the name Ayn Rand on the Internet:

    No, everyone doesn't hate Ayn Rand. She is one of the few best selling authors in history and her books brought in more money last year alone, long after her death, than your entire annual salary no doubt.

    What's the market value of your ideas?

    The only ones who hate her are those who hate logic.

    Here's a good logic puzzle for you if you are up to it:

    You say you find my posts annoying. How do you know what's in them? A rational person would scroll by the posts of someone he finds annoying and unlike you I make it easy for you to do so by using the same name on all my posts.

    What does it say about you that you don't scroll by?

    I am flattered that you continue to read all my posts and I guess you do because you find them fascinating, so I'll try to post more of them, including many more on Ayn Rand.

    Ha ha.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Anonymous3:49 AM

    However, Briones, who goes by Ryan, said he took photographs of the victims and helped carry their bodies out of their homes as part of the cleanup crew sent in late in the afternoon on the day of the killings.

    "They ranged from little babies to adult males and females. I'll never be able to get that out of my head. I can still smell the blood. This left something in my head and heart," Briones said.

    He said he erased the digital photos he took at the scene after first providing them to the Haditha Marine command center. He said Navy investigators later interrogated him about the pictures and confiscated his camera.


    Confiscated his camera?

    Wonder who those soldiers are who comitted those murders? I have my own speculation about that.

    robert 1014, I agree it's all to retain power. I thought that was implicit in what I wrote but I guess not. However, the reasons people want to retain power are varied ---some almost benign, most anything but benign but still, they are varied depending on the person.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous3:53 AM

    “Full Blown Anti-American Riot” In Afghanistan...

    --Huffington Post

    Am I the only one who thinks anti-Americanism is going to be spreading?

    That is what I was driving at when I said one could be proud in the past about being an American. No matter what anyone on this blog writes, it used to be the case that when one went abroad most of the people in any country you would go to respected and admired Americans and a tremendous number would have emigrated to America if they could.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Anonymous4:15 AM

    In the heat of the 2000 election. Bush said there was no difference between himself and Al Gore except character.

    That's how the Bush presidency began: two lies in a single sentence.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Anonymous5:31 AM

    "Afghanistan at least seemed to make sense at first."

    Only in that fantasy world you were referring to.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Anonymous6:17 AM

    Think about the inferences to be drawn from the WAPO excerpt below. There's a very good possibility that instead of downsizing, Bushco will have to signficantly increase the amount of troops in Iraq under the good money after bad theory turning Iraq into either a very big full scale military battle for this country or to avoid that, actual death squads forming a "military dictatorship government" like in South America, but on a bigger scale.

    U.S. Will Reinforce Troops in West Iraq
    Car Bomb Kills 2 From CBS News

    By Ellen Knickmeyer
    Washington Post Foreign Service
    Tuesday, May 30, 2006; Page A01

    BAGHDAD, May 29 -- The U.S. military said Monday it was deploying the main reserve fighting force for Iraq, a full 3,500-member armored brigade, as emergency reinforcements for the embattled western province of Anbar, where a surge of violence linked to the insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq has severely damaged efforts to turn Sunni Arab tribal leaders against the insurgency.

    The insurgents have assassinated 11 tribal leaders in the Ramadi area since the end of last year, when Sunni sheiks in the city began open cooperation with the U.S. military. That alliance was heralded by U.S. commanders as a sign of a major split between Sunni insurgents and the larger Sunni community of western Iraq....

    The insurgent attacks since then have all but frozen the cooperation between Sunni tribal leaders and U.S. forces in Ramadi, local leaders say.


    The list seems to be growing. First we had Al Quaeda and the "terrists" and then we had the
    "insurgents" (otherwise known as "the Iraqi people") and now we have the Sunnis themselves who are like what, one-third of the Iraqis?

    We are now going to have to fight all Sunnis in addition to all "insurgents" except those few with turbans on at the banquet table divying up the promised rewards?

    I hope there are no North Korean enclaves in Iraq. Wouldn't be prudent to turn them against us also.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Anonymous6:46 AM

    "Gentle reader, do you believe that the Bush Regime will not shoot you down in the streets if you have a rebellion?"

    -PCR

    How about those on this site? Do you believe they will not?

    The Evil Is in Our Government

    by Paul Craig Roberts
    Is the Bush Regime a state sponsor of terrorism?

    A powerful case can be made that it is.

    In the past three years, the Bush Regime has murdered tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians and an unknown number of Afghan ones.

    U.S. Marines, our finest and proudest military force, are under criminal investigation for breaking into Iraqi homes and murdering entire families. In an unprecedented event, Gen. Michael Hagee, the Marine Corps commandant, has found it necessary to fly to Iraq to tell our best-trained troops to stop murdering civilians.

    Gen. Hagee found it necessary to tell the U.S. Marines: "We do not employ force just for the sake of employing force. We use lethal force only when justified, proportional, and most importantly, lawful."

    The war criminals in the Bush Regime have dismissed the murders as "collateral damage," but they are in fact murders. Otherwise, there would be no criminal investigations, and the Marine commandant would not be burdened with the embarrassment of having to fly to Iraq to lecture U.S. Marines on the lawful use of force.

    The criminal Bush Regime has now murdered more Iraqis than Saddam Hussein. The Bush Regime is also responsible for 20,000 U.S. casualties (dead, maimed for life, and wounded).

    Bush damns the "axis of evil." But who has the "axis of evil" attacked? Iran has attacked no one. North Korea has attacked no country for more than a half century. Iraq attacked Kuwait a decade and a half ago, apparently after securing permission from the U.S. ambassador.

    Isn't the real axis of evil Bush-Blair-Olmert? Bush and Blair have attacked two countries, slaughtering their citizens. Olmert is urging them on to attack a third country – Iran.

    Where does the danger to the world reside? In Iran, a small, religious country where the family is intact and the government is constrained by religious authority and ancient traditions, or in the U.S. where propaganda rules and the powerful executive branch has removed itself from accountability by breaking the constitutional restraints on its power?......

    The U.S. government has spent the past half century interfering in the internal affairs of other countries, overthrowing or assassinating their chosen leaders and imposing its puppets on foreign peoples. To what country has Iran done this, or Iraq, or North Korea?

    Americans think that they are the salt of the earth. The hubris that comes from this self-righteous belief makes Americans blind to the evil of their leaders. How can American leaders be evil when Americans are so good and so wonderful?

    How many Serbs were slaughtered by American bombs released from high above the clouds, and for what reason? Who even remembers the propagandistic lies that the Clinton administration told us about why we absolutely had to drop bombs on the Serbs?

    Wasn't it evil for the U.S. to bomb Iraq for a decade and to embargo medicines for children? When U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright was asked if she thought an embargo that resulted in the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children was justified, she replied, "yes."

    The former terrible tyrant ruler of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, is on trial for killing 150 people.The U.S. government murdered 500,000 Iraqi children prior to Bush's invasion. When the U.S. government murders people, whether Serbs, Branch Davidians at Waco, or Iraqi women and children, it is "collateral damage." But we put Saddam Hussein on trial for putting down rebellions.....

    ReplyDelete
  126. Anonymous6:47 AM

    If you wanted to invade Iraq and not win the war this is what you would do:

    1) Don’t rely on a decade worth of research and planning done by the Pentagon. Just listen to some NeoCon ThinkTank Members.

    2) Invade Iraq with far less troops than needed.

    3) When you get to Iraq, disband the Iraqi Army and tell them to take their weapons with them.

    4) Humiliate the Sunnis by creating a Supreme National Debaathification Commission.

    5) Allow American Private Contractors to run rampant pillaging and killing Iraqis.

    6) When lawlessness and widespread looting occur, just stand back and watch it happen. Later say “well the people are now free to loot…”

    7) Make sure the power, water, and trash services are unreliable.

    8) Train Sunni Militia and order them to patrol Shi’a neighborhoods.

    9) Train Shi’a Militia and order them to patrol Sunni neighborhoods.

    10) Send the National Guard to Iraq which has no desert combat training.

    11) Stop loss troops and send them back to Iraq on fourth and fifth tours.

    12) Do not armor the troops’ vehicles or provide them with the body armor they need.

    13) Send troops on patrol for 22 hours each day on only two meals.

    14) Take Iraqis captive, put women’s underwear on their heads, and sick dogs on them.

    15) Have Iraqi mothers watch as their sons are sodomized.

    16) Refuse to change strategy or chart a new course. Keep making the same mistakes over and over to ensure you are not victorious.

    17) Keep unemployment above 60% by ensuring that only Halliburton gets the contracts to rebuild Iraq.

    Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld don't want to win the War in Iraq. They don't want the war to end. They along with their cronies are making too much money off war. Also the constant state of fear they put everyone under gives them supreme power. No one will stop them and the entire world is afraid of them.

    Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld are Traitors. They violate the Constitution, erode freedom, stifle democracy, and order the killing of innocent civilians with no care or concern. They violate basic humna rights and shit on everything that America once stood for.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Anonymous7:02 AM

    6:47 anon. Brilliant post to which I can only say Oh My God. When you list it all like that the way you do, one can see the sheer insanity of it all.

    Why isn't Sen.Feingold speaking out about this, or Hillary or Obama or anyone? Even Murtha says they are tired and demoralized but the Marines about to be tried for murder were only on their second or third tour and were experienced at JUST THIS TYPE OF COMBAT.

    Wonder who Miguel (T.J.) Terrazas' buddies were, who went on such a murderous rage to avenge his death, a "rage" that is said to have lasted three to five hours?

    ReplyDelete
  128. Anonymous7:45 AM

    Craig said: "In the heat of the 2000 election. Bush said there was no difference between himself and Al Gore except character.

    That's how the Bush presidency began: two lies in a single sentence."


    Bush uttered another "two lies in a single sentence" when he claimed he was a "compassionate conservative." Actually, it was two lies in two words. There's something masterful in that.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous10:54 AM

    From shooter242 at 10:36AM:

    "In Bush's favor on the other hand..."

    Followed by a laundry list of distortions, misstatements, and hyperbole.

    Shooter continues with:

    "Consider the likely outcome of a Gore Presidency after 9/11....."

    Followed by a laundry list of nonsense no more coherent or grounded in reality than "Plan 9 From Outer Space".

    Shooter, neither you nor I nor anyone on this planet know how a first-term Gore Administration would have reacted to the 9/11 attacks. There's every possibility they would've acted precisely the same way the Bush Administration did; there's equally every possibility they'd have allowed Richard Clarke and his shop to go ahead with their plans to pro-actively go after Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Thanks to the SCOTUS and a few questionable decisions during the Florida recount, we'll simply never know.

    "On the whole I prefer the guy that worried about us more than himself."

    Sorry, but looking over his pre-WH 'career' and his actions since, I see little evidence of this President actually caring about the safety or stability of the country. But then, he's never actually been confronted or had to directly face the consequences of his decisions or failures.

    Does Mr. Gore have a sterling, completely clean record behind him? No, nor I think is anyone here naive enough to think he would.

    But in comparison to the individual presently sitting in the Oval Office and the cast of characters he surrounds himself with, Mr. Gore comes out looking far better.

    ReplyDelete
  130. Anonymous12:01 PM

    Pootie tang...
    You may remember the famous book "The Ugly American"? the book that describes how badly we were viewed around the world? It was published 50 years ago. Your view is myth.


    The book is older than you are. You never read it, so how do you know what it's about? It was first published in 1958 and Marlon Brando starred in a very bad film version of it. Someone please pimp slap this moron. Do you just make this shit up as you go along?

    ReplyDelete
  131. I don't have a dog in this Zinsmeister squabble. However, the WP interviewed Zinsmeister in this article...

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/29/AR2006052900834.html

    ReplyDelete
  132. Anonymous12:06 PM

    Just STFU, Shooter. You are too stupid to be here. Go back to Freep.

    The book's title is deliberately ironic. The "ugly American" is Homer Atkins, a smart, hard-working engineer with no patience for diplomats and other fools. "His hands were laced with prominent veins and spotted with big, liverish freckles. His fingernails were black with grease. His fingers bore nicks and tiny scars of a lifetime of engineering. The palms of his hands were calloused. Homer Atkins was worth three million dollars, every dime of which he had earned by his own efforts..." But who is really ugly here? Atkins is one of the book's heroes. It isn't the engineer's skin-deep ugliness that drives this story. It's the ugliness of short-sighted, conceited, self-important fools. To this day, more than forty years after its publication, the phrase "ugly American" is invoked to embody America's incompetent, heavy-handed foreign policy.

    If you are going to wing it, like a wingnut would, send us smarter trolls.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anonymous12:26 PM

    Bwahahaha! Blow it out yer ass, moron! The only people who buy that crap are dipshits just entering college, mostly teen-age boys, because idiots like you flog that garbage like Moonies or Hare Krishnas at an airport.

    Eventually, The Fountainhead was a worldwide success, bringing Rand fame and financial security. In the sixty years since it was published, Rand's novel has sold six million copies, and continues to sell about 100,000 copies per year.[20]

    Atlas Shrugged
    See also: Atlas Shrugged

    "Atlas," the largest sculptural work at Rockefeller Center in New York City, by Lee Lawrie and Rene Chambellan, in the Art Deco style. (1936)Rand's magnum opus, Atlas Shrugged, was published in 1957. Due to the success of The Fountainhead, the initial printing was 100,000 copies,[21] and the book went on to become an international bestseller. (The frequent claim[22] that Atlas Shrugged was later found to be the "second most influential book in America, after The Bible,"[23] appears to be an exaggeration of the findings of one 1991 survey.)[24][25]

    ReplyDelete
  134. Anonymous12:40 PM

    David Byron,

    America, with a smarter foreign policy, and competent people at it's helm, could have capitalized on the victory in Afghanistan. You can say what you will about the reasons and justication for that action, but it was supported by most of the world community, who were just as shocked by what happened on 9/11. Many of our "so called enemies" understood the need to go in. The victory there was the best foreign policy tool we had, historically speaking, no one had managed such a feat since Alexander, not the Brits or the Soviets. Then Bush pissed it all away, like with everything else he touches. We could have just looked mean at countries like North Korea and Iran, it would have meant something. now we are a laughing stock around the globe. No one is afraid of us. Anonymous @ 6:47 is wrong. They aren't even afraid of our nukes. They know we can't use them. Bush, if he were a general, would probably be given his side arm and sent into a room to "take matters into his own hands". But he couldn't do that, too much of a coward to even take the coward's way out.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Anonymous12:44 PM

    bart said...
    I don't have a dog in this Zinsmeister squabble. However, the WP interviewed Zinsmeister in this article...


    Don't you support "man on dog" Santorum, Bart? Don't you like a nice, hot and steamy, frothy cup of Santorum in the morning?

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous12:48 PM

    Supreme Court rules against gov’t whistleblowers. “The Supreme Court on Tuesday made it harder for government employees to file lawsuits claiming they were retaliated against for going public with allegations of official misconduct,” the AP reports. By a 5-4 vote, justices ruled “that the First Amendment does not provide protection for comments that a public employee makes in the course of performing regular duties, even if the comments alleged public corruption or government wrongdoing.” Justice Samuel Alito cast the tie-breaking vote.

    UPDATE: More on the ruling from SCOTUSBlog: “This apparently means that employees may be disciplined for their official capacity speech, without any First Amendment scrutiny, and without regard to whether it touches on matters of “public concern” — a very significant doctrinal development.”


    Welcome to the new Evil Empire kids.

    ReplyDelete
  137. Anonymous12:52 PM

    Discarded Advice
    The Ugly American
    by Eugene Burdick and William J. Lederer

    On a bookshelf in the back room of my apartment, I came across a crumbling, yellowed paperback. It's older than I am: originally published in 1958, the title page shows that my copy is a third printing, from 1960. I can no longer remember where I got it. It has no price tag, so it's doubtful that I bought it. Most likely, I picked it up from a pile of books discarded in an alley somewhere. That, sadly, reflects not only the fate of my copy of the book, but of the ideas within. Its noble sentiments have been passed over and largely forgotten.


    The Ugly American is a novel about Sarkhan, a fictional Southeast Asian country. Sarkhan is an amalgamation of many nations: Vietnam, Indonesia, Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand. It's is a poor nation hovering precariously close to revolution. A communist insurgency, skillfully aided by the Soviets, is gaining strength. America, meanwhile, seems determined to alienate the Sarkhanese. The American officials are overwhelmingly arrogant, rude, and incompetent.

    In contrast to the officials, a few Americans are genuinely devoted to helping the Sarkhanese. A priest, a soldier, a chicken farmer... spurned by their own government, they work small miracles in their own ways. But who will the Sarkhanese see as America's true face: the career diplomats, or the chicken farmers? Between these two distinctly different groups is Gilbert MacWhite, the newly appointed American ambassador to Sarkhan. MacWhite is a decent man, but he's woefully unprepared for the realities of Southeast Asia. To his credit, however, he realizes his shortcomings, and he dedicates himself to the challenge.

    The book's title is deliberately ironic. The "ugly American" is Homer Atkins, a smart, hard-working engineer with no patience for diplomats and other fools. "His hands were laced with prominent veins and spotted with big, liverish freckles. His fingernails were black with grease. His fingers bore nicks and tiny scars of a lifetime of engineering. The palms of his hands were calloused. Homer Atkins was worth three million dollars, every dime of which he had earned by his own efforts..." But who is really ugly here? Atkins is one of the book's heroes. It isn't the engineer's skin-deep ugliness that drives this story. It's the ugliness of short-sighted, conceited, self-important fools. To this day, more than forty years after its publication, the phrase "ugly American" is invoked to embody America's incompetent, heavy-handed foreign policy.

    In the introduction, the authors assert that events similar to those described in the book have happened again and again in the developing world. Indeed, most of the book seems very authentic... authentic enough that any reader concerned with how America is perceived in the rest of the world will cringe again and again.

    In the book's "factual epilogue" the authors again drive home their point: that the US was being consistently outmanuevered by communists throughout the third world. (The postscript, incidentally, notes that one of the few parts of the book which seemed implausible -- an incident in which the Soviet ambassador deceives a village into believing that rice provided by the US was donated by the Soviets -- was loosely based on an actual occurance in India: in that incident, local communists secretly painted a red hammer and sickle emblem on several tractors which had been donated by the US, leading the Indians to believe that the tractors had been a gift from the Soviet Union!)

    The Ugly American received exemplary reviews. In 1963 it was made into a movie starring Marlon Brando. Its title has become part of our contemporary lexicon.

    And yet America's foreign policy is still haunted by the same mistakes. The Cold War is long-finished, and communism discredited, but it hardly matters. Who needs an enemy like communism, when you are already your own worst enemy?

    ReplyDelete
  138. Anonymous12:57 PM

    And yet America's foreign policy is still haunted by the same mistakes. The Cold War is long-finished, and communism discredited, but it hardly matters. Who needs an enemy like communism, when you are already your own worst enemy?

    Enter "terrorism" and our foreign policies are designed to make that flourish forever!

    ReplyDelete
  139. Anonymous1:09 PM

    Best reader review of Assless Shrugged you will ever find at Amazon. EWO does seem like the perenial teen age narcissist. Not unlike Bush in that respect.


    Was great when I was 14; it was weak by the time I was 15, April 18, 2006
    Reviewer: Herr Frog (Washington DC area) - See all my reviews
    I strongly suspect all the reviews captioned "The Greatest book of all time!" and similar should be held with a great degree of skepticism (guffaw). Ms. Rand inspired a following nearly as fanatical as that of L. Ron Hubbard, and I think many of the unqualified rave reviews here are not something any person of intelligence should respect, except as a symptom of how fanatical her ideas and writing are.

    I could go on and on about this book, and actually have. But to spare you all, I'll tell you what occurred to me as I was mowing the lawn, and delete the rest in hopes you *find this review helpful!*

    This book is a relic from a more naive, simple time. It's a good example of some of the flaws and presumptions of the 20th Century, and was a piece of bald-faced propaganda posing as serious philosophy. The television series "Mash," I think serves as a good foil to this book. There is the same smug self-righteousness, the certainty that one is always in the right no matter what you do; there is the portrayal of the enemy as weak, corrupt, and/or full of vice. There is the sappy eulogizing. Frankly, I stil respect "Mash" more, although I hate to watch it. Just hearing the theme song makes me cringe.

    Ms. Rand was an intelligent woman, and she hated what the Soviet revolution had done to her country. She spent most of her life after she fled Russsia trying to foment hatred against the political order that did her so much harm, and she attempted to unify an anti-communist philosophy in the nation that she found refuge and success in.

    Her "objectivism" is an odd pastiche of feudalism and yankee capitalism, more than a coherent philosophy. It purports to be a philosophy of achievement and greatness, by and for those captains of industry who serve only the ideal of excellence.

    In reality it serves as a defense for inherited wealth, for those who care little about excellence except to the extent it makes them wealthier. And inasmuch as America is now slouching toward feudalism and hereditary power, she has inadvertently succeeded in influencing America, bringing it closer to her old Czarist Russsia. That was not her intent, but her intents and the reality were not really compatible.

    Who is John Galt, indeed. He moved to Hong Kong years ago, out of contempt for American speculators who produce nothing themselves, yet makes royal paychecks off of sweatshops in Asia and Mexico.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous1:45 PM

    Top 10 Signs of the Impending U.S. Police State

    From secret detention centers to warrantless wiretapping, Bush and Co. give free rein to their totalitarian impulses.


    Is the U.S. becoming a police state? Here are the top 10 signs that it may well be the case.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Anonymous2:48 PM

    DavidByron said...

    I know this guy is trying to prod Americans to the truth but there should be no sugar coating:

    Bush damns the "axis of evil." But who has the "axis of evil" attacked? Iran has attacked no one. North Korea has attacked no country for more than a half century. Iraq attacked Kuwait a decade and a half ago, apparently after securing permission from the U.S. ambassador.

    Isn't the real axis of evil Bush-Blair-Olmert? Bush and Blair have attacked two countries, slaughtering their citizens. Olmert is urging them on to attack a third country – Iran.


    North Korea hasn't attacked nayone ; you can't count South Korea because Korea was a single country and the US and the Soviets divided it by force.

    And the US has invaded and occupies three not two countries under Bush (remember Haiti). So that's axis of evil 1, Bush 3. But it's still flawed because were counting the number of invasions in all recent history for Iraq, Iran and North Korea. So we ought to add in all the invasions and attacks by other recent American president. What would that come to? 30-odd wars vs 2?


    Yeah I see what you mean. He sugarcoats things in ways that make America look evil, but not "the most evil in the whole world for all time," and that failure guarantees he won't be able to convince America to change its ways. Until America realizes it isn't just guitly of horrible crimes around the globe, but is the "new nazi regime," they'll continue to just vote in better leaders, and won't admit how evil they are.

    It is vitally important they stop sugar-coating things by failing to acknowledge they're not just evil, but "the most evil," because that just doesn't cut it with me either. I want to hear them say "we are not just evil, we are the most evil country in the world." Of course they still won't change, but at least they'll have admitted how evil they are.

    You go davidbyron!

    ReplyDelete
  142. Anonymous3:38 PM

    Armagednoutahere said...
    Anonymous said...
    David Byron,

    America, with a smarter foreign policy, and competent people at it's helm, could have capitalized on the victory in Afghanistan....

    Trying to explain common sense to bart and/or david is admirable, but ineffective. They are mirror images, impervious to anything outside their agenda.


    I'd like to think there is a major difference between the two. Bart is all about "Bart", as any right wingnut is. Conservatism has been one long attempt at poor rationales for ostentatious greed and selfishness for it's own sake, like Ayn Rand. I'd like to give David the benefit of the doubt, unless he owns a fleet of Hummers and lives alone in an ugly McMansion, I'll assume he is like most people on this planet, a person of modest means and quite happy in that situation.

    ReplyDelete
  143. Anonymous4:25 PM

    anonymous said:
    "America, with a smarter foreign policy, and competent people at it's helm, could have capitalized on the victory in Afghanistan. You can say what you will about the reasons and justication for that action, but it was supported by most of the world community, who were just as shocked by what happened on 9/11. Many of our "so called enemies" understood the need to go in. The victory there was the best foreign policy tool we had, historically speaking, no one had managed such a feat since Alexander, not the Brits or the Soviets."

    Wrong. All it takes is the will to learn and Google, my friend.

    armagednoutahere said:
    "Trying to explain common sense to bart and/or david is admirable, but ineffective. They are mirror images, impervious to anything outside their agenda."

    How is david anything like bart? David's posts aren't based on lies and purposely false assumptions.

    Why are you guys so extremely averse to him criticizing America? Because he doesn't live here? I live here, and I feel the same way. Maybe you guys are just desensitized to what it really means to murder millions of people in this century alone.

    That article was sugar-coated, he is correct. Or are you trying to say that factual accuracy is a bad thing, and that we should forget about Haiti, or the truth about Korea?

    I also would include Venezuela in the "direct victim of Bush administration" camp. They kidnapped their democratically elected leader!

    ReplyDelete
  144. shooter242 keeps trying the same old 'same old':

    One of the problems with calling every last little thing one disagrees with a lie, is that pretty soon it's meaningless.

    One of the difficulties in "debating" the RW "noise machine" is that pretty much everything they say is a lie. To wit:

    In Bush's favor on the other hand...

    * He didn't have a tobacco farm, taking revenues from a product that killed his sister,

    Neither did Gore Jr.

    * He didn't claim a farm backround while growing up in Washington DC,

    Gore did work on the farm.

    * He didn't vote on the first Iraq war based on whether he got TV time,

    Nope. But then again, Dubya couldn't vote on it at all. He hadn't bought his first gummint sinecure yet....

    * He didn't flunk out of graduate school,

    Neither did Gore.

    * He didn't need lessons from a girl to be a man,

    Neither did Gore. But, OTOH, you might argue that Dubya needed lessons from "Why should waste my beautiful mind..." Babs.

    * He didn't accept campaign contributions from monks bound by vows of poverty,

    Neither did Gore.

    * He didn't claim to invent the internet.

    Neither did Gore. However, Gore was instrumental in the develoment of the Internet. Ask Vinton Cerf, "Father of the Internet" -- or Newt Gingrich. That's not something that Dubya could claim.

    * He didn't blow a huge lead in the election,

    Huh? But FWIW, if one wants to talk about blowing big leads, he might take a peek at the 2004 election....

    * He didn't try to cherry pick votes in Florida or have the Supreme court vote 7-2 that he violated the equal protection clause of the Constitution as a result.

    Nope. No 7-2 vote. Shooter's a liar. I've pointed this out before (and asked him how a case that claims to be an "equal protection" claim can ensure that the precise "constitutional violation" they claim to be so concerned about is in fact mandated to occur by the remedy chosen. No answer, of course.

    Shooter is just full of RW "talking points". But not a single original though ikn his mind ... no wonder he's a Dubya butt-sucker.

    Bob Somerby over at The Daily Howler has disposed of mopst of these lies about Gore (many times over). Shooter needs to edjoomakate himself a bit.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  145. shooter242:

    You may remember the famous book "The Ugly American"? the book that describes how badly we were viewed around the world? It was published 50 years ago. Your view is myth.

    I do remember the book. It was a cautionary book about American hubris. Not everyone in the book was the "Ugly American". The ones that were effective were the one that weren't arrogant ideologues. The ones that were the "ugly" ones were the ones that acted like Dubya's maladministration. Perhaps they -- and you too -- need to go read the book again (or for the first time; I suspect you just read the book cover, thining that would substitute for the Cliff's Notes version...).

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  146. Anonymous7:10 PM

    armagednoutahere:
    "You can't seem to recognize when you are talking to Americans who know as much as you do (or more) about American history and the atrocities that entails."

    I'm having a lot of trouble recognizing that as well. Afghanistan seemed to make sense? Again, only in fantasy land.

    ReplyDelete
  147. Anonymous7:42 PM

    Americans are shockingly bereft of historical knowledge. Just off the top of my head why do you think they are all muslims in Afghanistan?

    I'm sorry Byron, this is where you lose, me and everyone. I never even brought religion into it. I am quite sure I know as much about world religions as you do.

    To James,

    It is possible to be a leftist and still find military action acceptable in some circumstances. Deal with it.

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous7:45 PM

    Maybe David is a Maoist.

    ReplyDelete
  149. Anonymous7:48 PM

    James and David have issues with power and powerlessness. They need to study some Zen, and never try to get their hands on any real power. It will be their undoing. It's heady stuff and few people can handle it.

    Maybe Byron is just a troll after all.

    ReplyDelete
  150. Anonymous7:53 PM

    anonymous:
    "It is possible to be a leftist and still find military action acceptable in some circumstances. Deal with it."

    me:
    "Sorry to burst your bubble, but nearly every war has been bullshit."

    Read a bit closer...

    ReplyDelete
  151. Anonymous7:55 PM

    Study a little military history, girls (David and James). Then come back and we can talk.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Anonymous8:13 PM

    "James and David have issues with power and powerlessness. They need to study some Zen, and never try to get their hands on any real power. It will be their undoing. It's heady stuff and few people can handle it."

    Hilarious. Maybe it'd be a bit funnier if I hadn't devoted 2-3 years of my life studying Zen Buddhist philosophy.

    Funnier still if that had anything to do with what we're talking about.

    ReplyDelete
  153. Anonymous8:24 PM

    "Study a little military history, girls (David and James). Then come back and we can talk."

    The classic fallback, insulting my masculinity. Must be because I showed you how stupid that comment about necessary military action was.

    armagednoutahere:
    "If by "fantasy land" you mean most of America and the Western World, then yes, it made sense in fantasyland. "

    Yep, that pretty much nails it. The war in Afganistan is irrational in everywhere but the fantasy land of "most of America". I guess Noam Chomsky and countless others are just wrong because they're not part of that fantasy.

    I'd provide links if not for my laziness. Read any interview with Chomsky about the war in Afghanistan. Unless he somehow isn't good enough or rational enough?

    ReplyDelete
  154. Anonymous8:30 PM

    Sorry I jumped the gun on that reply.

    "But my post was about GW Bush and the quagmire he's created. As for whether or not I personally believe we should have gone into Afghanistan, I didn't go into that. If by saying it made sense you assumed I thought it was morally OK, then I wasn't clear enough. What I was talking about was the fact that even in Afghanistan, where he had the support of almost all Americans, and a good part of the world, even in that circumstance, Bush has completely blown it. That was my only point."

    OK, I understand your point much more clearly now. I thought you were honestly trying to say that it was justifiable to wage war on Afghanistan. I apologize.

    ReplyDelete
  155. Anonymous8:50 PM

    2-3 years of my life studying Zen Buddhist philosophy.

    Only 2 or 3 years. That's hardly very long and if you were just chanting over your Gohunzen it's kind of funny. When an attack is launched against your country from a place like Afghanistan, if you can, you go there and deal with it. I'm sorry if that offends you. Tough shit. Yes, there are many reasons why it's our own damn fault, but that doesn't change the fact that action was required. I shouldn't have called you a girl, because many girls are in uniform all over the world. I should have called you a pacifist or a Christian or just a damn fool who lets people into your home and do whatever they like. My apologies. Fortunately for the rest of us, sane foreign policy with regards to national defense doesn't mean total disarmament.

    ReplyDelete
  156. Anonymous8:53 PM

    OK, I understand your point much more clearly now. I thought you were honestly trying to say that it was justifiable to wage war on Afghanistan. I apologize.

    It was justified for us to liberate Afghanisthan from the Taliban. Unfortunately Bush had other ideas. I will be glad to liberate this country from the religious fundamentalists here, any time. At gun point, I hope.

    ReplyDelete
  157. Anonymous8:59 PM

    Does this mean America should lay down it's arms and die. Perhaps it just means we've been pointing those weapons at the wrong people.

    "Ashamed to be American"


    A comment from the comments:
    I had a friend die on 9/11 in Tower One, and the son of another friend in the Pentagon (I live in Maryland). I was heartbroken and angry as hell at Osama. I felt more patriotic than usual -- and I am usually very patriotic (even if what we did to Native Americans always pissed me off). But now, unfortunately, Bush has ruined my feelings for this country. I'm ashamed. 9/11 has become a sort of bastardized event where the sadness I feel now is directed at how 9/11 has been used and abused. Osama wanted to destroy our infrastructure and Bush played right into his hands. I'm so angry. And why this man is not impeached just kills me. I believe America has been lost. It started under Reagan, and now it is complete. I have no more hope. I think 9/11 actually destroyed us. The problem is it really wasn't Osama that did it -- it was Bush, the media, and the scores of ignorant Americans that have forgotten what we stand for. I actually hate the America that now exists. Thanks, George.

    ReplyDelete
  158. Anonymous9:02 PM

    I get the strong impression that david's arguments are not taken seriously at all because they are surrounded by "anti-American" sentiment. I feel the same way as he does about many of the things that are talked about on this blog, but I live in America. If anti-American means that you are against the US
    government because of what it has done and continues to do, then I guess I am anti-American too.

    I can't really comment on the whole Israel thing as I was not part of that conversation, but all I know is that whenever I see that david is embroiled in an argument, what he is saying actually has merit (regardless of condescension or whatever else you want to say he does) but it is eventually treated as a joke because of his harsh criticism.

    Whatever problems you may have with him, how can anyone possibly compare him to bart? You say they are mirror images, but david doesn't base his arguments on lies like bart does, so I fail to see the connection (other than in similar degrees of zealousness).

    anonymous:
    "Only 2 or 3 years. That's hardly very long and if you were just chanting over your Gohunzen it's kind of funny. When an attack is launched against your country from a place like Afghanistan, if you can, you go there and deal with it. I'm sorry if that offends you. Tough shit. Yes, there are many reasons why it's our own damn fault, but that doesn't change the fact that action was required. I shouldn't have called you a girl, because many girls are in uniform all over the world. I should have called you a pacifist or a Christian or just a damn fool who lets people into your home and do whatever they like. My apologies. Fortunately for the rest of us, sane foreign policy with regards to national defense doesn't mean total disarmament."

    Again you resort to the same crap. Go back and read closer, like I asked you to. I said "nearly". Funny how that little word changes everything you are accusing me of, isn't it?

    Still doesn't change the fact that the war in Afghanistan was a completely unjustified and irrational response to 9/11. And even if it was, they certainly did a bang up job of catching those perpetrators, didn't they? Especially when the Taliban offered to give up Osama to a third party for a fair trial. Please explain to me how that would be unsatisfactory.

    ReplyDelete
  159. Anonymous9:10 PM

    anonymous:
    When did I say anything about following the religious practices of Zen Buddhism? I said I devoted 2-3 years of my life to studying Zen Buddhism. Y'know, you don't have to devote your lifetime to chanting to have a clear understanding of a philosophy. I'd say that was the conclusion I came to from my obsession with learning about it and applying it to my life, that you can't learn it from a teacher or a book or some ancient practice. I find it to be a complete contradiction to look for enlightenment in things like that.

    At least I learned enough to know how ridiculous it is that you would encourage me to study Zen and at the same time profess support for the war in Afghanistan.

    Why did you say to study Zen, anyway? What were you getting at?

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous9:17 PM

    The problem with idealists, be they James, EWO or maybe Byron (not sure about him), as H.L. Mencken observed is that on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, they conclude that it will also make better soup. Bart is no idealist. He's just a shill for himself.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Anonymous9:19 PM

    At least I learned enough to know how ridiculous it is that you would encourage me to study Zen and at the same time profess support for the war in Afghanistan.

    Now this has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.

    I will have to tell my Sifu about this. Please go make some rose soup.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous9:27 PM

    Just off the top of Buck Henry's head (with visions of John Belushi performing kata and slicing sandwich meat).
    Zen, Religion of the Samurai

    My Sifu says hello.

    ReplyDelete
  163. Anonymous10:08 PM

    "Now this has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. "

    You have boggled my mind. Again I must ask, how is Zen Buddhism compatible with supporting the war in Afghanistan? Your Zen samurai link only contradicts you.

    Everything you are saying relies on the assumption that the war is good and correct, and everything in the real world demonstrates just the opposite.

    Well, I'm done responding to your posts because you still haven't responded to mine. You are just try to confuse the issue, and I must admit that you succeeded in ignoring the content of my responses and changing the subject.

    I just realized what people mean when they say "don't feed the troll". Sorry.

    ReplyDelete
  164. Anonymous10:26 PM

    "I can't keep track of the follow-up replies from "anonymous" because I don't know who made which so I don't know if I'm expected to reply to any of it."

    Yeah, you really ought to pick a name if you are going to post here so much. Why make it confusing?

    That goes double for the anonymous guy who freaks out and uses the term "mental midgits" every time someone replies to a troll. I need to know which posts are his so I can skip them. Maybe that's where the anonymous thing comes into play...

    ReplyDelete
  165. Anonymous11:59 AM

    Arne,

    Noticed one thing above. You claim shooter is a liar because he says Bush v Gore was a 7-2 decision? Did I get that right?

    If that is in fact what you are saying than you are either lying or just incapable of reading. Bush v Gore was a 7-2 decision on the issue of whether the Florida Supreme Court had once again violated the constitution with one of its orders. In this case the ordered recount and its procedures established by the Florida Supreme Court were found to be unconstitutional by a 7-2 majority of the court. The court then went on to vote 5-4 on the issue of whether or not there was enough constitutional time left to fashion a remedy for the Florida Supreme Court's unconstitutional order.

    By 5-4 the court ruled there was not enough time left to form a constitutionally permissible remedy and therefore, the only remedy left to the US Supreme Court was to set-aside the Florida Supreme Court's order (by a 7-2 vote) and provide no constitutionally acceptable remedy (by a 5-4 vote).

    It is without question or dispute that the Florida Supreme Court's recount order was held to be unconstitutional by a 7-2 vote as it unquestionably was in fact unconstitutional.

    The constitution and related federal enabling statutes are quite clear that the *exclusive* jurisdiction to establish voting procedures and qualifications and selection of electors are with the State Legislature and the Supreme Court of a state is without authority to establish any procedures that are different from those established by that state's legislature.

    Says the "Dog"

    ReplyDelete
  166. "The Dog" sez:

    Arne,

    Noticed one thing above. You claim shooter is a liar because he says Bush v Gore was a 7-2 decision? Did I get that right?


    Yep. Four dissents. Count 'em. None of this "Concurrign as to Part I, but dissentign as to part II" or "Concurring with part I but dissenting as to remedy". Four dissents.

    If that is in fact what you are saying than you are either lying or just incapable of reading. Bush v Gore was a 7-2 decision on the issue of whether the Florida Supreme Court had once again violated the constitution with one of its orders.

    Sorry, "Dog", but at least for ther time being, the majority doesn't get to decide what the minority is thinking. The cowardly anonymous per curiam claimed that the dissenters were with them, but they were not. That was a lie. Four times: "Dissenting."

    By 5-4 the court ruled there was not enough time left to form a constitutionally permissible remedy and therefore, the only remedy left to the US Supreme Court was to set-aside the Florida Supreme Court's order (by a 7-2 vote) and provide no constitutionally acceptable remedy (by a 5-4 vote).

    So, the incomprehensible per curiam decided there was a serious constitutional violation, and then mandated that this very "constitutional violation" -- that so troubled them (enough to take the case) -- must in fact occur, as their "remedy"?. That makes sense to you?!?!?

    It is without question or dispute that the Florida Supreme Court's recount order was held to be unconstitutional by a 7-2 vote as it unquestionably was in fact unconstitutional.

    As brighter bulbs than you have pointed out (including the dissents you so studiously ignore), the actual facts of the case hadn't been allowed to develop! As one of the supposed "7-2 majority", Breyer, stated in his dissent, the Florida courts could handle any equal protection issues "if and when" they were found to be a problem.

    The majority insisted that the "certified count" be reinstated as the official count. But that "certified count" included manual counts in some counties (including "stealth" manual counts that had netted Dubya some 190 or so votes), but not all. If there was a problem with "equal protection", it was surely most manifest in some counties doing manual counts, and others not doing such at all. Talk about "different standards". This is the situation that the Florida Supreme Court sought to remedy by at least asking for manual counts across the state, and under a single judge to supervise the procedure.

    The constitution and related federal enabling statutes are quite clear that the *exclusive* jurisdiction to establish voting procedures and qualifications and selection of electors are with the State Legislature and the Supreme Court of a state is without authority to establish any procedures that are different from those established by that state's legislature.

    That "theory" came from the Palm Beach v. Harris case, and only the three most conservative justices bothered to mention it in Dubya v. Gore. You're simply confused.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  167. Anonymous6:03 PM

    Arne,

    So, the incomprehensible per curiam decided there was a serious constitutional violation, and then mandated that this very "constitutional violation" -- that so troubled them (enough to take the case) -- must in fact occur, as their "remedy"?. That makes sense to you?!?!?

    No Arne that doesn't make sense and your statement above indicates your own confusion about the case. The US Supreme Court ruled the Florida Supreme Court's recount order, which specified procedures for how the recount was to be done, was unconstitutional. The Florida Supreme Court's partisan recount order and procedures was found to be unconstitutional by 7 out of 9 justices. Then, the next question the court answered was what remedy to the Florida Supreme Court's unconstitutional recount order, IF ANY, could be fashioned and how. 5 out of those 7 justices ruled there was no time left on the constitutional clock that would allow the crafting of and hearings required to come up with a valid and constitutional procedure for the recount to take place (assuming, arguendo, that a valid and constitutional recount could be constitutionally ordered by a Florida court, which is highly doubtful because the state legislature is the sole authority for establishing these procedures). 2 of these 7 justices thought there was time to construct or let the Florida Supreme Court try to construct a constitutional method of conducting the recount. 2 other justices thought the original order was just dandy with them.

    So to sum up once again for your education. 7 out of 9 justices ruled the Florida Supreme Court's recount order and procedures for such recount was unconstitutional. 5 out of 9 said there was not sufficient time to try and sort out through the court system whether, if, and how a constitutional recount could be ordered. Therefore, the net result was the recount was stopped because it was being conducted pursuant to an unconstitutional order of the Florida Supreme Court.


    Breyer, stated in his dissent, the Florida courts could handle any equal protection issues "if and when" they were found to be a problem.

    This statement relates to whether the unconstitutional Florida Supreme Court order could be cured or corrected to pass constitutional muster, and it is unrelated to the question of whether the original order of the Florida Supreme Court was constitutional. Breyer joined as one of the 7 in finding that the Florida Supreme Court's order as it stood was unconstitutional. He then broke off from the gang of 7 when it came time to decide whether the unconstitutional Florida Supreme Court's order could be fixed by additional processes in the lower courts.

    The constitution and related federal enabling statutes are quite clear that the *exclusive* jurisdiction to establish voting procedures and qualifications and selection of electors are with the State Legislature and the Supreme Court of a state is without authority to establish any procedures that are different from those established by that state's legislature.

    That "theory" came from the Palm Beach v. Harris case, and only the three most conservative justices bothered to mention it in Dubya v. Gore. You're simply confused.


    Nope (although that theory might be in the case you cited), that theory is from the first approximately 10 pages of the Bush v Gore opinion and from other Federal Appeals Court opinions. However, in Bush v Gore they didn't rule for Bush based upon that theory because Breyer got Sandra Day O'Connor to peel off on that theory in exchange for Breyer's and another justice joining the 7-2 majority to rule the Florida Supreme Court's recount order unconstitutional on equal protection grounds. Sandra Day O'Connor and possibly Kennedy thought it was better to have MORE than just 5 judges saying the Florida Supreme Court's order was unconstitutional, so they made the trade.

    The correct legal theory however for a definitive ruling on this matter is as I stated and is detailed quite well in the first 10 pages of the Bush v Gore opinion.


    So to sum up for you. Please pay attention so you don't erroneously call someone a liar again.

    Florida Supreme Court's recount order and recount procedures were UNCONSTITUTIONAL,

    1. Because its not within their constitutional authority because the state legislature has exclusive jurisdiction in these matters; but wasn't necessary to be decided on this basis, BECAUSE

    2. 7 judges agreed and ruled the Florida Supreme Court's recount order was UNCONSTITUTIONAL on an equal protection basis; and

    3. Then 2 of the 7 judges peeled off to say hey we can order the constitutional problems be fixed or attempted to be fixed and the 5 of 7 left said NOPE there is not enough time for the hearings and other considerations necessary to craft and litigate over recount legality and procedures in a full and proper way and would therefore inherently deny due process to somebody if we try. Therefore, times up and the unconstitutional Florida Supreme court's order remains just that UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

    Its all quite clear, and not in need of detailed analysis. You just need to read the opinion. 7-2 recount unconstitutional; 5-4 no time left to try and fix the unconstitutional recount.

    Says the "Dog"

    ReplyDelete
  168. Anonymous10:46 PM

    If davidbyron had read your post he'd have seen that it answers his objection in the first few paragraphs. It explains that its been 3 years since the overthrow of the talaban, and since then things have improved for women, implying things were worse than this article tells about before the US moved in. Good Lord what kind of horrors must have been visited on the women there before if things are this bad in 2005?

    David, you are a mysoginist jerk if you think women are not treated worse than men in the ME.

    ReplyDelete
  169. "The Dog" continues on cluelessly:

    He repeats himself endlessly ["argument by repeated assertion"], so I'll just go "ditto" to the summer reruns...

    Nice snip there, Dawg. You know, the part where I point out that the four dissenters all say "Dissenting".

    [Arne]: So, the incomprehensible per curiam decided there was a serious constitutional violation, and then mandated that this very "constitutional violation" -- that so troubled them (enough to take the case) -- must in fact occur, as their "remedy"?. That makes sense to you?!?!?

    No Arne that doesn't make sense and your statement above indicates your own confusion about the case....

    Nice try, but nope. That isn't an argument.

    The US Supreme Court ruled the Florida Supreme Court's recount order, which specified procedures for how the recount was to be done, was unconstitutional....

    Nope. The per curiam tells you in plain language what they held right at the end of Part I. Right here:

    "The petition presents the following questions: whether the Florida Supreme Court established new standards for resolving Presidential election contests, thereby violating Art. II, §1, cl. 2, of the United States Constitution and failing to comply with 3 U. S. C. §5, and whether the use of standardless manual recounts violates the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses. With respect to the equal protection question, we find a violation of the Equal Protection Clause."

    As I said, the petitioner made three claims: An Article II one, a 3 U.S.C. 5 one, and the "equal protection" one. The court agrees with only the "equal protection" claim, asserting that "manual recounts violates the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses".

    One slight problem: The counts that were at issue (the statewide recounts) hadn't even been done yet (and in fact were stopped by the U.S. Supreme Court from proceeding). There was no factual basis on which to take the case (as Breyer pointed out). The "facts" that the justices relied on (and cited) had to do with already concluded counts that were included in the "certified" totals that were left standing!!! The justices did nothing to "fix" the fact that, for example, Broward and Volusia votes were manually counted, and other counties didn't even do the single legally mandated actual recount at all.

    I note also in passing that the per curiam holding I quoted above found only the "equal protection" violation; the Article II and 3 U.S.C. 5 arguments were not upheld (the concurrence of Rehnquist, with Thomas and Scalia joining, argues these grounds, but the majority dismissed them without discussion; only three justices found such grounds to have any legal weight).

    ... The Florida Supreme Court's partisan recount order and procedures was found to be unconstitutional by 7 out of 9 justices.

    As I said before (and you ignored), four justices dissented. None of them "concurr[ed] as to Part I but dissent[ed] as to Part II" or "... as to the remedy". All just plain "dissent[ed]". This is how it works: When a judge concurs, (s)he says (s)he concurs. When (s)he dissents, he says (s)he dissents. Shouldn't take much brains to figger that out, Dawg.

    Part I makes clear the holding in that part (that last sentence above). Only five justices signed on to that part of the per curiam.

    ... Then, the next question the court answered was what remedy to the Florida Supreme Court's unconstitutional recount order, IF ANY, could be fashioned and how....

    Look, if there is no possible "remedy", there's no reason for the case to be in court. That's part of what "justiciability" is all about: If the courts can't do anything to make your right, you'll have to go elsewhere. Which means that the U.S. Supreme Court, if there was no possible "remedy" (a proposition that the dissents disagreed with), should have butted out and not taken the case.

    As I pointed out, the "remedy" they settled on was in fact not a remedy at all, and did nothing to address the actual problem they claimed to care about ("standardless manual recounts"). If the manual recounts that had been done (or any counts; there's nothing in the Fourteenth Amendment that specifies only "equal protection" for recounts) were "standardless", the "remedy" left them in place! See the problem? Breyer did:

    "By halting the manual recount, and thus ensuring that the uncounted legal votes will not be counted under any standard, this Court crafts a remedy out of proportion to the asserted harm. And that remedy harms the very fairness interests the Court is attempting to protect. The manual recount would itself redress a problem of unequal treatment of ballots."

    ... 5 out of those 7 justices ruled there was no time left on the constitutional clock that would allow the crafting of and hearings required to come up with a valid and constitutional procedure for the recount to take place ...

    ... after they stopped the counting and "ran out the clock..." Imagine that.

    But FWIW, as the dissents point out, the clock wasn't a problem. In fact, in the 1960 election, it wasn't even known until January of 1961 who the electors for Hawai'i would be. NP, you see.

    ... (assuming, arguendo, that a valid and constitutional recount could be constitutionally ordered by a Florida court, which is highly doubtful because the state legislature is the sole authority for establishing these procedures).

    Nonsense. Courts look at elections and interpret election law all the time. Courts order recounts, reverse elections, order new elections, and even rule on whether
    "improperly" marked ballots should be gone over by hand and remarked with a machine-readable marker (as happened in a prior Florida election). This is part and parcel of the U.S. and state gummints, and has been for centuries, and is as common as dogs**t. And as I pointed out, the Article II/"new rule" argument was only accepted by the most conservative troika of the Supreme Court.

    2 of these 7 justices thought there was time to construct or let the Florida Supreme Court try to construct a constitutional method of conducting the recount....

    Don't have a clue as to who you're talking about here. Breyer said:

    "The Court was wrong to take this case. It was wrong to grant a stay. It should now vacate that stay and permit the Florida Supreme Court to decide whether the recount should resume."

    In other words, "futt the buck out". He couldn't be clearer.

    Souter said:

    "The Court should not have reviewed either Bush v. Palm Beach County Canvassing Bd., or this case, and should not have stopped Florida's attempt to recount all undervote ballots, by issuing a stay of the Florida Supreme Court's orders during the period of this review, [...] The case being before us, however, its resolution by the majority is another erroneous decision."

    In other words, "futt the buck out". Again. Along with a scold of the majority for their "remedy".

    ... 2 other justices thought the original order was just dandy with them.

    Nope. Four. See the two quotes above.

    So to sum up once again for your education. 7 out of 9 justices ruled the Florida Supreme Court's recount order and procedures for such recount was unconstitutional. 5 out of 9 said there was not sufficient time to try and sort out through the court system whether, if, and how a constitutional recount could be ordered. Therefore, the net result was the recount was stopped because it was being conducted pursuant to an unconstitutional order of the Florida Supreme Court.

    Nope. "Argument by repeated assertion". See above.

    [Arne]: Breyer, stated in his dissent, the Florida courts could handle any equal protection issues "if and when" they were found to be a problem.

    This statement relates to whether the unconstitutional Florida Supreme Court order could be cured or corrected to pass constitutional muster, ...

    Nope. See above. What part of "And the more fundamental equal protection claim might have been left to the state court to resolve if and when it was discovered to have mattered" are you having difficulty understanding?

    Breyer had no difficulties with the actions of the Florida Supreme Court. See the Breyer quote about 10 paragraphs above.

    ... and it is unrelated to the question of whether the original order of the Florida Supreme Court was constitutional....

    Nope. See above.

    ... Breyer joined as one of the 7 in finding that the Florida Supreme Court's order as it stood was unconstitutional....

    Nope. See above.

    ... He then broke off from the gang of 7 when it came time to decide whether the unconstitutional Florida Supreme Court's order could be fixed by additional processes in the lower courts.

    Nope. See above.

    You know: You ought to read what Breyer said. A far better indication of his thinking than what the per curiam (or the RW "spinmeisters") claim he said. As I said, it's (still, barely) a free country and people get to decide for themselves what their opinions is.

    ["The Dog"]: The constitution and related federal enabling statutes are quite clear that the *exclusive* jurisdiction to establish voting procedures and qualifications and selection of electors are with the State Legislature and the Supreme Court of a state is without authority to establish any procedures that are different from those established by that state's legislature.

    This is unremarkable. But the idea that the Florida courts have no role to play in election disputes, particularly when Florida election law specifies that in fact they are the proper place for election disputes, is one that simply didn't carry the day in the U.S. Supreme Court (and for good reason). See above (not to mention Ginsburg's and Breyer's dissents).

    [Arne]: That "theory" came from the Palm Beach v. Harris case, and only the three most conservative justices bothered to mention it in Dubya v. Gore. You're simply confused.

    Nope (although that theory might be in the case you cited), that theory is from the first approximately 10 pages of the Bush v Gore opinion ...

    As I said above, the per curiam mentions the "new rule"/"Article II/3 USC 5" crapola in the last paragraph of Part I only, and dismisses these. As the Rehnquist concurrence points out, the per curiam did not sign on to these grounds:

    "We join the per curiam opinion. We write separately because we believe there are additional grounds
    that require us to reverse the Florida Supreme Court's decision."


    And these "additional grounds" were the Article II/3 USC 5 arguments.

    ... and from other Federal Appeals Court opinions.

    Huh??? WTF you talking about here, Dawg?

    ... However, in Bush v Gore they didn't rule for Bush based upon that theory because Breyer got Sandra Day O'Connor to peel off on that theory in exchange for Breyer's and another justice joining the 7-2 majority to rule the Florida Supreme Court's recount order unconstitutional on equal protection grounds. Sandra Day O'Connor and possibly Kennedy thought it was better to have MORE than just 5 judges saying the Florida Supreme Court's order was unconstitutional, so they made the trade.

    Your idle speculation doesn't comport with reality.

    The correct legal theory however for a definitive ruling on this matter is as I stated and is detailed quite well in the first 10 pages of the Bush v Gore opinion.

    That "theory" is hogwash, and for reasons clearly elucidated in the dissents (all of them). But the "theory" of the per curiam was the "equal protection" one only. See above. And, as I said (as did Breyer), the "remedy"
    is no remedy at all, and the case is a travesty.

    So to sum up for you. Please pay attention so you don't erroneously call someone a liar again.

    I'll call Shooter a liar. And you as well, if you continue to claim that any of the four dissenters didn't actually dissent. Is that clear?

    Florida Supreme Court's recount order and recount procedures were UNCONSTITUTIONAL,

    1. Because its not within their constitutional authority because the state legislature has exclusive jurisdiction in these matters; but wasn't necessary to be decided on this basis,...

    This garnered only 3 votes fromthe justices. You lose.

    ... BECAUSE

    2. 7 judges agreed and ruled the Florida Supreme Court's recount order was UNCONSTITUTIONAL on an equal protection basis; ...

    Nope. See above.

    ... and

    3. Then 2 of the 7 judges peeled off to say hey we can order the constitutional problems be fixed or attempted to be fixed ...

    Nope. See above. And just read the first paragraphs of their dissents.

    ... and the 5 of 7 left said NOPE there is not enough time for the hearings and other considerations necessary to craft and litigate over recount legality and procedures in a full and proper way and would therefore inherently deny due process to somebody if we try....

    IOW, they didn't "fix" the problem they claimed to have seen. That's a very unusual thing for a court to do, for a number of reasons. See above.

    Therefore, times up and the unconstitutional Florida Supreme court's order remains just that UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

    The "time's up!" argument was likewise ridiculous, as the dissents pointed out.

    Its all quite clear, and not in need of detailed analysis. You just need to read the opinion. 7-2 recount unconstitutional; 5-4 no time left to try and fix the unconstitutional recount.

    Sad to say, you need to read both the opinions and the dissents. You're full'o'sh*te.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  170. Anonymous1:46 PM

    Arne, you're an idiot.

    Quoting Directly From The Bush v. Gore Opinion:

    Seven Justices of the Court agree that there are constitutional problems with the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court that demand a remedy.... The only disagreement is as to the remedy.

    This is EXACTLY what I said. 7-2 the Supreme Court ruled the Florida Supreme Court's order was unconstitutional, and it comes DIRECTLY FROM THE TEXT OF THE OPINION. Learn to frickin read!!

    Then the MAJORITY and RULING opinion goes on to state that Breyer's proposed remedy in his LOSING DISSENT does not meet the requirements of the law and is WRONG.

    Again Quoting directly from the MAJORITY AND RULING opinion:

    [Breyer is WRONG] Because the Florida Supreme Court has said that the Florida Legislature intended to obtain the safe-harbor benefits of 3 U. S. C. §5, Justice Breyer's proposed remedy--remanding to the Florida Supreme Court for its ordering of a constitutionally proper contest until December 18-contemplates action in violation of the Florida election code, and hence could not be part of an "appropriate" order authorized by Fla. Stat. §102.168(8) (2000).

    The MAJORITY RULING Opinion from the court explains exactly why Breyer and you are full of shit.

    Arne boy, dissents are the opinions of the LOSERS, they are NOT the law, they are NOT holdings in the case. You cite the dissents as support for your bullshit as though they actually stand for something. They don't.

    The ruling opinion that establishes what the law is in fact states quite clearly and explicitly that SEVEN (count them on your fingers Arne) SEVEN justices agree that the Florida Supreme Court's recount order is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

    That's EXACTLY what I said, and it is exactly that which you are holding your breath and stomping your feet and calling people liars over like a small minded child unable to accept reality. The reality is you are full of shit on this issue and are attempting to re-write what is plainly written in the actual opinion.

    So stop lying to yourself and calling other people liars when the opinion written by the court states exactly and in these words:

    Seven Justices of the Court agree that there are constitutional problems with the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court that demand a remedy

    Anyone can verify the accuracy of the quotes above by doing a google search on Bush v. Gore and looking at a copy of the opinion, as presented online.

    Finally, I will note that the opinion as presented online is Not in the same format as originally released by the court to the public. In the version originally released by the court to the public the opinion started out with the arguments in what is now labeled the concurring opinions, and concluded with its not necessary to decide on these grounds because the court has ruled on equal protection grounds. So unlike your false and erroneous claim the concurring opinion theories weren't accepted by the court, quite to the contrary they weren't ruled on at all by the court.

    Get your facts straight before you start calling people liars, and you won't make such a big fool of yourself.

    Says the "Dog"

    ReplyDelete
  171. "The Dog":

    Clue for you:

    Quoting Directly From The Bush v. Gore Opinion:

    "Seven Justices of the Court agree that there are constitutional problems with the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court that demand a remedy.... The only disagreement is as to the remedy."

    Sorry, this is still a free country. The opposition doesn't get to determine what it is that you think. Hmmmm ... maybe this is why you're having such difficulty here; that's the state of affairs you'd like to have pertain, eh?

    SO: FOR THE THIRD AND LAST TIME: If you want to know what Breyer, Souter, Ginsburg, and Stevens said, you need to read their opinion, not the "opinion" of those from whom they dissented.

    Again Quoting directly from the MAJORITY AND RULING opinion:

    [Breyer is WRONG] "Because the Florida Supreme Court has said that the Florida Legislature intended to obtain the safe-harbor benefits of 3 U. S. C. §5, Justice Breyer's proposed remedy--remanding to the Florida Supreme Court for its ordering of a constitutionally proper contest until December 18-contemplates action in violation of the Florida election code, and hence could not be part of an "appropriate" order authorized by Fla. Stat. §102.168(8) (2000)."

    Ummm, hate to say it, but the cowardly per curiam majority lied again. The Florida Supreme Court said no such thing (concerning the "safe-harbor benefits". If you think differently, just quote 'em. Not the per curiam, the Florida Supreme Court.

    The MAJORITY RULING Opinion from the court explains exactly why Breyer and you are full of shit.

    It "explains" it, but I don't have to buy it. Neither does Breyer, nor did he. But glad you agree that Breyer wasn't part of the "elect Dubya" claque. In fact, he was pretty caustic. Hardly the mark of someone agreeing with Dubya's claims.

    Arne boy, dissents are the opinions of the LOSERS, they are NOT the law, they are NOT holdings in the case. You cite the dissents as support for your bullshit as though they actually stand for something. They don't.

    Nor did I say they were the law (although, curiously, in this one case, the per curiam opinion stated that it was not "the law" either, and shouldn't actually be used for any purpose other than getting Dubya elected).

    But that's not the issue here. The issue is: Did Breyer or Souter sign on to the majority (you know, that little "fact" of Shooter's that I disputed)? And the answer is: "No". Yes, dissents are the "opinion of the losers", but are you seriously disputing that this is not their opinion, and that because they're "losers", not only do they lose, but the majority gets to make up their mind for them as well???

    You're one confused (or just plain stoopid) dude.

    [snip furter confusion on this subject]

    Finally, I will note that the opinion as presented online is Not in the same format as originally released by the court to the public. In the version originally released by the court to the public the opinion started out with the arguments in what is now labeled the concurring opinions, and concluded with its not necessary to decide on these grounds because the court has ruled on equal protection grounds. So unlike your false and erroneous claim the concurring opinion theories weren't accepted by the court, quite to the contrary they weren't ruled on at all by the court.

    You'll note that such preliminary opinions state that they are preliminary, and are not the official or final court opinion until they are published in the official records of the court (The "U.S. Reports"). And just a FYI, it's the official version that is the ... ummm, "official" ... opinion. But aside from that inconvenient fact, you haven't pointed to any such source that shows what you claim here. Feel free to do so; until then, pardon me if I tell you to go stuff yourself with your claim.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  172. "The Dog":

    So unlike your false and erroneous claim the concurring opinion theories weren't accepted by the court, quite to the contrary they weren't ruled on at all by the court.

    And as purely a matter of logic (perhaps a foreign concept to the puppy dog here), I'd point out that if something isn't "ruled on at all", then pretty much by defintion, it isn't "accepted". Yeah, I know it's a subtle point but ... if the Dawg here really puts his mind to it, maybe he can figger it out. Maybe. Time will tell.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  173. Anonymous8:09 PM

    Arse or is it Arne,

    Quoting Directly From The Bush v. Gore Opinion:

    "Seven Justices of the Court agree that there are constitutional problems with the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court that demand a remedy.... The only disagreement is as to the remedy.


    Please quote where Breyer or Souter say in their dissents that the above statement by the 7 judge majority IS NOT TRUE. Go ahead just pull that quote out of the disents and post it here.

    Post where they say "Hey majority you claimed 7 judges found the Florida Supreme Court's order was unconstitutional but that's not true, that statement is false". Should be easy for you to find this statement in the dissents if they mean what you prattle on about with your bullshit and nonsense.

    So come on Arne, put up or shut up. Or just call the judges on the Supreme Court liars and not as smart as you, which is what you did regarding their *correct* citation to the Florida Supreme Court Rulings.

    And while your looking for that non-existant quote from Breyer and Souter's dissent, explain section C of Souter's dissent where he specificially acknowledges that he is one of the 7 judges who think the Florida Supreme Court's recount order was unconstitutional. You know the section of Souter's dissent that says:

    It is only on the third issue before us [equal protection] that there is a meritorious argument for relief, as this Court's Per Curiam opinion recognizes.

    So here Souter recognizes and admits that the Florida Supreme Court's recount order is unconstitutional on an equal protection basis.

    Then Souter goes on to say, again quoting from his dissent:

    In deciding what to do about this [the Florida Supreme Court's recount order violating the equal protection clause of the constitution], ..... I would therefore remand the case to the courts of Florida with instructions to establish uniform standards for evaluating the several types of ballots that have prompted differing treatments, to be applied...

    There is no need to remand for correction a perfectly good constitutional order. Here Souter expresses EXACTLY that which the 7 judge majority expresses in the Majority Opinion, that 7 judges including Souter and Breyer say the Florida Supreme Court's recount order is UNCONSTITUTIONAL, but that Souter and Breyer differ on what the remedy can or should be for the constitutional breach by the Florida Supreme Court. EXACTLY what was said by both ME and by the 7 judge majority opinion.

    Now here is the final bit for your reading comprehension. Not that it will do a closed minded arse/arne any good but it might educate the less rabid of deranged Bush haters around here.

    BREYER JOINED IN SOUTER'S DISSENT!!!!. That's right Arse, quoting again from the opinion, Souter's dissent:

    Justice Souter, with whom Justice Breyer joins

    That means Justice Breyer ADOPTS AS HIS OWN JUSTICE SOUTER'S LANGUAGE QUOTED ABOVE FROM SECTION C OF SOUTER'S DISSENT.

    Game, Set, Match, slink off the court while you still have any false sense of dignity left.


    Now to summarize once again. The Majority Opinion states and NONE of the dissents contradict that 7 Judges find the Florida Supreme Court's recount order to be UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Those seven Judges are Rehnquist, Thomas, Scalia, O'Connor, Kennedy, Souter, AND Breyer.

    Souter and Breyer each file dissents and join in each other's dissents arguing why (just as the majority stated) they believe a remedy could be fashioned for the Florida Supreme Court's UNCONSTITUTIONAL ORDER.

    Souter and Breyer do NOT dissent from the fact that the Florida Supreme Court's order is UNCONSTITUTIONAL as issued. They only dissent on what remedy if any could be applied.

    This is PLAINLY stated by Souter in section C of his dissent in which Breyer joins.

    Making this point abundantly clear is the fact that Justices Stevens and Ginsburg also joined in Judge Souter's opinion EXCEPT as to Section C Souter's Opinion where he admits that the Florida Supreme Court's recount order was in fact UNCONSTITUTIONAL on its face and needed fixing.

    So take this and shove it where the sun nor your intellect don't shine:

    7 judges say Florida Supreme Court recount order is unconstitutional, 2 of the 7 say it can be fixed with a remand and instructions of something similar, 5 of the 7 say no there is no time to fix it, and the remaining 2 (Stevens and Ginsburg) thought the original order was just fine and dandy with them.

    7-2 Arne. Stop lying about it. Stop lying to yourself about it. The election is over, Bush won every count and every recount. Bush won 7 out of 8 of the reporters and investigators recounts save one highly manipulated study, whose details don't support the result because of such manipulation.

    He won, fair and square, despite the highly partisan and UNCONSTITUTIONAL interference of the ALL DEMOCRAT Florida Supreme Court.

    7-2 Arse, 7-2.

    Says the "Dog"


    P.S., the opinion as initially issued doesn't say anything different from the published opinion, but the organization of the opinion issued in the evening in the middle of December gave a better insight into the judge's deliberations and wrangling, which is all I said. I jused to have a copy of it, but I deleted it a few years ago BECAUSE THE ELECTION IS OVER AND YOU LOST.

    LOL

    ReplyDelete
  174. "The Dog", still clueless after all these years:

    Arse or is it Arne,

    Wow. Think that one up yourself, or did you "Ben Dommenech" it from Cheney?

    Quoting Directly From The Bush v. Gore Opinion:

    "Seven Justices of the Court agree that there are constitutional problems with the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court that demand a remedy.... The only disagreement is as to the remedy."

    Repetition isn't argument.

    Please quote where Breyer or Souter say in their dissents that the above statement by the 7 judge majority IS NOT TRUE. Go ahead just pull that quote out of the disents and post it here.

    They're being polite. Not nice to call your fellow Supes liars to their faces, when the plain facts will do the trick:

    Justice Souter, with whom Justice Breyer joins and with whom Justice Stevens and Justice Ginsburg join with regard to all but Part C, dissenting:

    "The Court should not have reviewed either Bush v. Palm Beach County Canvassing Bd., or this case, and should not have stopped Florida's attempt to recount all undervote ballots, by issuing a stay of the Florida Supreme Court's orders during the period of this review. If this Court had allowed the State to follow the course indicated by the opinions of its own Supreme Court, it is entirely possible that there would ultimately have been no issue requiring our review, and political tension could have worked itself out in the Congress following the procedure provided in 3 U. S. C. §15. The case being before us, however, its resolution by the majority is another erroneous decision.

    "As will be clear, I am in substantial agreement with
    the dissenting opinions of Justice Stevens, Justice Ginsburg and Justice Breyer. I write separately only to say how straightforward the issues before us really are."

    First two paragraphs.

    Note, BTW, he says who he's in agreement with. Note the conspicuous absence of "the majority" there.

    Note also the "another erroneous decision".

    He says they were wrong to take the case, they were even more horribly wrong in their faux "remedy", and if there were any actual problems down the road (you know, after there was an actual factual basis to work from), there was better ways to solve them.

    That's clearly opposite from the claim that Souter agreed that "there are constitutional problems with the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court that demand a remedy." (my emphasis, for the hard of thinking here)

    Justice Breyer, with whom Justice Stevens and Justice Ginsburg join except as to Part I-A-1, and with whom Justice Souter joins as to Part I, dissenting:

    "The Court was wrong to take this case. It was wrong to grant a stay. It should now vacate that stay and permit the Florida Supreme Court to decide whether the recount should resume."

    Once again, the exact opposite of someone who agrees that "there are constitutional problems with the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court that demand a remedy." (my emphasis, for the hard of thinking and impervious to reality here)

    Then there's Breyer's qoute I gave previously, where he said that problems could be addressed "if and when" they were found to have mattered.

    Post where they say "Hey majority you claimed 7 judges found the Florida Supreme Court's order was unconstitutional but that's not true, that statement is false".

    No point in repeating myself. The Gawg won't listen.

    Should be easy for you to find this statement in the dissents if they mean what you prattle on about with your bullshit and nonsense.

    Hate to say it, but there are more clever ways to shove a shiv in someone than calling them a liar to their face. Not that you would understand this.

    So come on Arne, put up or shut up. Or just call the judges on the Supreme Court liars and not as smart as you, ...

    Nope. In reality, what they've shown is that they're smarter than you. A fact that would seem to be over your head.

    ... which is what you did regarding their *correct* citation to the Florida Supreme Court Rulings.

    Give me a quote from the Florida Supreme Court opinion (I've read the whole thing, dissents and all) where they said any such thing about "safe-harfbor benefits". Just give me the quote, and I promise I'll shut up (providing the quote says what you [and the majority] say it says).

    And while your looking for that non-existant quote from Breyer and Souter's dissent, explain section C of Souter's dissent where he specificially acknowledges that he is one of the 7 judges who think the Florida Supreme Court's recount order was unconstitutional. You know the section of Souter's dissent that says:

    "It is only on the third issue before us [equal protection] that there is a meritorious argument for relief, as this Court's Per Curiam opinion recognizes."

    What Souter is saying is that "only the third issue has even a meritorious argument" (as opposed to the specious Article II and 3 U.S.C. 5 issues), and that the per curiam admits that. But he doesn't say that this last argument has carried the day. And he certainly doesn't say that there are "constitutional problems with the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court that demand a remedy." In fact, he says that the court shouldn't have taken the case; exactly the opposite of saying that there was something in the case thar "demand[ed] a remedy." HTH.

    So here Souter recognizes and admits that the Florida Supreme Court's recount order is unconstitutional on an equal protection basis.

    Nope. See above.

    Then Souter goes on to say, again quoting from his dissent:

    "In deciding what to do about this [the Florida Supreme Court's recount order violating the equal protection clause of the constitution], ..... I would therefore remand the case to the courts of Florida with instructions to establish uniform standards for evaluating the several types of ballots that have prompted differing treatments, to be applied..."

    What he's discussing here is what would have been a more appropriate remedy (just check the context). He said, to start with, they were worng to take the case, and then he said that, furthermore, their remedy sucked big ones. This part of the dissent is saying what he thought they should have done as a remedy, if they were hell-bent on even getting into the case.

    There is no need to remand for correction a perfectly good constitutional order.

    Huh? He's saying even if they were right, their "remedy" was wrong. Capice?

    Here Souter expresses EXACTLY that which the 7 judge majority expresses in the Majority Opinion, that 7 judges including Souter and Breyer say the Florida Supreme Court's recount order is UNCONSTITUTIONAL, but that Souter and Breyer differ on what the remedy can or should be for the constitutional breach by the Florida Supreme Court. EXACTLY what was said by both ME and by the 7 judge majority opinion.

    Yes, Souter (and Breyer) disagreed as to the "remedy" as well. And for good reason; the remedy, assuming there was a problem for sake of argument, didn't fix the freakin' problem!!! They were saying, "Look, if there is a problem, here's how you should fix it."

    But they first disagreed that the court should have even taken the case, and that there was anything that needed fixing (at least by them) to begin with.

    Now here is the final bit for your reading comprehension. Not that it will do a closed minded arse/arne any good but it might educate the less rabid of deranged Bush haters around here.

    BREYER JOINED IN SOUTER'S DISSENT!!!!. That's right Arse, quoting again from the opinion, Souter's dissent:

    "Justice Souter, with whom Justice Breyer joins"

    That means Justice Breyer ADOPTS AS HIS OWN JUSTICE SOUTER'S LANGUAGE QUOTED ABOVE FROM SECTION C OF SOUTER'S DISSENT.

    But as I explained above, they both agreed that the Supreme Court had no business even taking the case. Yes, they were in agreement, but what they agreed on is not what you think they agreed on. See above.

    OBTW, if you're going to take this tack, then you have to also acknowledge that Souter was in "substantial agreement" with all the other dissents (and cruiously, didn't bother to mention his "agreement" with the majority for some reason ... wonder why, hmmm?)

    Game, Set, Match, slink off the court while you still have any false sense of dignity left.

    Speaking of "game, set, and match", you're in default on your claim that the majority gets to decide what the dissenters think. Gonna concede that, at the very least, or are you a "no show"?

    Now to summarize once again. The Majority Opinion states and NONE of the dissents contradict that 7 Judges find the Florida Supreme Court's recount order to be UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

    Nope. The majority used more specific language (quoted above). And they claimed (contrary to the clear statements of Breyer and Souter) that they agreed that "there are constitutional problems with the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court that demand a remedy." (my emphasis for the brain dead here).

    Those seven Judges are Rehnquist, Thomas, Scalia, O'Connor, Kennedy, Souter, AND Breyer.

    As I said, "dissenting" ... "dissenting" ... "dissenting" ... and -- ummm --- yeah, "dissenting". I count four. Did you run out of paws?

    Souter and Breyer each file dissents and join in each other's dissents arguing why (just as the majority stated) they believe a remedy could be fashioned for the Florida Supreme Court's UNCONSTITUTIONAL ORDER.

    See above.

    Souter and Breyer do NOT dissent from the fact that the Florida Supreme Court's order is UNCONSTITUTIONAL as issued. They only dissent on what remedy if any could be applied.

    See above.

    This is PLAINLY stated by Souter in section C of his dissent in which Breyer joins.

    See above.

    You're repeating yourself. Talk to the docs about titrating the Haldol up a notch. You'll feel better.

    Making this point abundantly clear is the fact that Justices Stevens and Ginsburg also joined in Judge Souter's opinion EXCEPT as to Section C Souter's Opinion where he admits that the Florida Supreme Court's recount order was in fact UNCONSTITUTIONAL on its face and needed fixing.

    Souter says there was an "argument". As Stevens explains, he doesn't think there was even that. Also, they may not have liked his proposed alternative remedy or his analysis; they don't say.

    So take this and shove it where the sun nor your intellect don't shine:

    7 judges say Florida Supreme Court recount order is unconstitutional,...

    Nope. That's not what they said. What they said was mopre specific. See above.

    ... 2 of the 7 say it can be fixed with a remand and instructions of something similar, 5 of the 7 say no there is no time to fix it, and the remaining 2 (Stevens and Ginsburg) thought the original order was just fine and dandy with them.

    True. But four of seven said the court was wrong to take the case, period. Hardly what you'd say of a constitutional claim that had any merit, and certainly not what you'd say if you thought it "demand[ed] a remedy".

    7-2 Arne. Stop lying about it. Stop lying to yourself about it.

    Stop being a clueless berk. Learn to read. Just one word will help your comprehension here immensely: "dissenting". Another one, admittedly more common, so I'm at a loss to understand your unfamiliarity with it: "wrong".

    The election is over, Bush won every count and every recount.

    Anther lie. Even you admit as much here:

    Bush won 7 out of 8 of the reporters and investigators recounts save one highly manipulated study, whose details don't support the result because of such manipulation.

    Another lie. You're full of them today, Dawg.

    He won, fair and square, despite the highly partisan and UNCONSTITUTIONAL interference of the ALL DEMOCRAT Florida Supreme Court.

    He didn't get the most votes. Surely that counts for something.

    As for "interference", there's Katherine Harris's shenanigans with the voter purge.

    And you're lying once again: The Florida Supreme Court wasn't "all democrat".

    7-2 Arse, 7-2.

    Why, you're sounding positively hysterical, Dawg. Take a "chill pill". Hell, take 50 and do your thing for the gene pool.


    P.S., the opinion as initially issued doesn't say anything different from the published opinion, but the organization of the opinion issued in the evening in the middle of December gave a better insight into the judge's deliberations and wrangling, which is all I said. I jused to have a copy of it, but I deleted it a few years ago BECAUSE THE ELECTION IS OVER AND YOU LOST.

    Ummm, so it said the same thing, but in a different order, but it didn't say what you said it said. OK, fair 'nuff. You don't need to trot it out to prove yourself wrong, OK?

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  175. "The dog that didn't bark"

    (just some subtle double entendre for the more attuned)

    Just to make it easier for the Dawg here to figger things out:

    Assume for a moment for purposes of argument that Dawg's thesis -- that Souter and Breyer agreed with the majority as to Part I of their holding -- is true.

    Then several questions come to mind:

    1). Why would they not say in their opinions: "Concurring as to Part I [the "finding" of an "equal protection" violation] but dissenting as to Part II [the "remedy"]? Surely if they agreed, it would be easy for them to say that right on top, up front. The RW troika did it; they said "concurring". It's standard practise to do so in writing opinions, and these justices are hardly rebels from the formalities of court practise. Breyer and Souter both put in the standard first lines, and they did say "dissenting". "The dog that didn't bark...."

    2). Souter, on whom the Dawg relies so heavily, says: "...its resolution by the majority [i.e., the remedy] is another erroneous decision." If this is Souter's opinion, what was the first erroneous decision? What else did he disagree with?

    The Dawg will have to come up with plausible answers to these questions if his thesis is to make any sense.

    "The dog that didn't bark...."

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  176. Anonymous9:14 AM

    Arne says:

    True. But four of seven said the court was wrong to take the case, period. Hardly what you'd say of a constitutional claim that had any merit, and certainly not what you'd say if you thought it "demand[ed] a remedy".

    The heart of your lack of understanding and reading comprehension is revealed in these words.

    The arguments about not taking this or the other cases mentioned are NOT statements that there are no constitutional problems to be resolved. They are statements that these particular judges felt the constitutional problems would have been or should have been given an opportunity to be solved first in the lower courts before the Supreme Court of the USA weighed in.

    If these two judges felt there were no constitutional problems and nothing needed to be solved they would have said so. That's not what they said however. They argued the court shouldn't have taken the case at that time so the unconstitutional problems could be resolved by other means.

    Souter joined by Breyer clearly said that the equal protection clause problems (unconstitutionality) of the Florida Supreme Court's recount order existed, were meritorious as Souter put it, and Souter, joined by Breyer, noted that the majority opinion correctly notes this constitutional infirmity with the recount order and procedures.

    Souter's and Breyers dissents are simple to read and understand unless one is looking to be confused and looking to derive from that confusion some argument, pitiful as it is, that it was 5 judges who said the law demands the unconstitutional recount order be fixed instead of 7.

    Facts are it was 7 who said this. Souter and Breyer argued first let the unconstitutionality be fixed by lower courts and the congress before the Supreme Court takes the case. Then they argued ok if we are taking the case then yes we, Souter and Breyer, agree that the Florida Recount order is unconstitutional, BUT we two judges think the unconstitutionality can be fixed with a remand and instructions. The majority opinion however of the 5 of 7 judges who ruled the recount order unconstitutional said there is not time left on the clock to follow the law and procedures as established by the Florida Legislature and therefore remand and further hearings would be inherently unconstitutional to one or both parties.

    7 judges said the Florida Recount order was unconstitutional. These exact words are in the opinion, and Breyer and Souter do NOT contradict this statement. Instead as pointed out, Section C of Souter's opinon, joined by Breyer, clearly states that the recount order is unconstitutional on an equal protection basis.

    The dissents of Souter and Breyer are not about the Florida Recount order being perfectly constitutional. They dissented only on the basis that the obvious and admitted constitutional problems should be solved or tried to be solved first in lower courts and/or congress and that since a majority of learned justices said they were WRONG on this point and took the case, then they dissented ONLY in the manner of the remedy of the constitutional problems and NOT with the fact that there was a constitutional problem to be fixed.

    If there was no constitutional problem to be fixed, they would have said so, but they didn't and you can't provide a quote where they did say this. Instead they said ok since more learned justices say we must take the case rather than let the constitutional problems try to be resolved elsewhere, then lets fix the constitutional problem by remanding with instructions. Again no need to remand and instruct on something that isn't unconstitutional to begin with.

    So keep spinning and keep denying all you want, but the TRUTH IS that it was 7-2 that the Florida Recount Order was UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Shooter242 spoke the truth when he said this, and your hysterical accusations of lying have been clearly shown to be exactly that, just your own ignorant hysteria.

    Says the "Dog"

    ReplyDelete
  177. "The Dog":

    The heart of your lack of understanding and reading comprehension is revealed in these words.

    The arguments about not taking this or the other cases mentioned are NOT statements that there are no constitutional problems to be resolved....

    The heart of your lack of understanding and reading comprehension is revealed in these words.

    The argument isn't as to whether there might be "constitutional problems" ... in the abstract, or potentially. The argument is as to whether the justices in question agreed that "there are constitutional problems with the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court that demand a remedy", (and further, that this indicates that -- despite their saying "I dissent" -- they actually signed on to the majority opinion). That was the claim I disputed.

    Both Souter and Breyer indicated that any problem that might arise (you know, when there were any actual facts developed in the case to work from) might easily and perhaps more properly be addressed and disposed of at that time. Souter, for one, was a bit troubled by what had happened previously, but this case wasn't about that; it was whether counts as yet to be performed (and enjoined from being conducted to begin with, by the very same justices that may have been quite intent on making sure there weren't any embarrassing "facts" to work from) would be properly conducted. We'll never know. What is certain is that the counts that purportedly did trouble the majority enough to stop different counts were in fact left in place by the majority! They didn't order the previously allegedly miscounted ballots off the official vote count (nor were they ever removed). Nor did they address Breyer's objection that:

    "...halting the manual recount, and thus ensuring that the uncounted legal votes will not be counted under any standard, this Court crafts a remedy out of proportion to the asserted harm. And that remedy harms the very fairness interests the Court is attempting to protect. The manual recount would itself redress a problem of unequal treatment of ballots. As Justice Stevens points out, the ballots of voters in counties that use punch-card systems are more likely to be disqualified than those in counties using optical-scanning systems."

    ... They are statements that these particular judges felt the constitutional problems would have been or should have been given an opportunity to be solved first in the lower courts before the Supreme Court of the USA weighed in.

    Ummm, nope. They are statements that there weren't any such "problems" that "demand[ed] a remedy" (but I repeat myself vainly), and they are statements that any problems that might occur could and hopefully should be solved by others. Souter in particular opined that even if there were problems in the end (after there were facts to work from), the proper forum in the end for any resolution wasn't the U.S. Supreme Court.

    If these two judges felt there were no constitutional problems and nothing needed to be solved they would have said so.

    They did. Read their opening paragraphs (which I quoted for you).

    [snip reams of repeated stuff I've already responded to and which the Dawg refuses to address]

    Souter and Breyer argued first let the unconstitutionality be fixed by lower courts and the congress before the Supreme Court takes the case.

    Ummm, this is just plain false. See if you can figure out your error(s).

    Instead as pointed out, Section C of Souter's opinon, joined by Breyer, clearly states that the recount order is unconstitutional on an equal protection basis.

    Where? Please provide the quote that states this "clearly". Just a FYI, before you go off half-cocked, comments on what had happened previously (but which was not the substance of this lawsuit nor was such "fixed" by the majority) does not count as comments on the "recount order".

    If there was no constitutional problem to be fixed, they would have said so, but they didn't and you can't provide a quote where they did say this.

    They can't very well say that when the facts hadn't even been developed yet, eh? But in fact, they both said that the time to address such problems as might arise (or remain) was when they arose.

    Instead they said ok since more learned justices say we must take the case rather than let the constitutional problems try to be resolved elsewhere, then lets fix the constitutional problem by remanding with instructions."

    No. What they said was that even if the majority was right on the finding, their "remedy" was a pile'o'crap (as I've already documented) and that there were better alternative remedies. "[A]nother erroneous decision". That was your favourite, Souter. They don't have to agree with the problem to find the remedy lacking as well (nor did they).

    7 judges said the Florida Recount order was unconstitutional. These exact words are in the opinion, and Breyer and Souter do NOT contradict this statement.

    Back to the ol' "The majority gets to say what the dissenters think" nonsense? *sheesh*

    The dissents of Souter and Breyer are not about the Florida Recount order being perfectly constitutional. They dissented only on the basis that the obvious and admitted constitutional problems should be solved or tried to be solved first in lower courts and/or congress and that since a majority of learned justices said they were WRONG on this point and took the case, then they dissented ONLY in the manner of the remedy of the constitutional problems and NOT with the fact that there was a constitutional problem to be fixed.

    A variant on the "the majority gets to say what the dissenters think" meme here? You're arguing that Souter and Breyer have to say, "Gee, we were outvoted, so I guess we'll agree to Part I even though we don't, and then go on to disagree about part II." Sorry, but it doesn't work that way (as Souter explained: "another").

    You didn't answer my two questions. Here's a third: Assuming that Breyer and Souter agreed there were "problems" that "demand[ed] a remedy", why did they say that the court shouldn't even have heard the case? If the "remedy" was "let someone else take care of it", they could hardly have agree with Part I, where the majority decided that the U.S. Supreme Court needed to make a "find[ing]" and step in to provide a "remedy" (regardless of what remedy was provided).

    Here's a fourth question: Why did the majority issue an unsigned per curiam opinion here? This is very unusual for such an opinion, particularly for a case of such visibility and import. The answer is that the majority knew they were being dishonest, and tried to hide as best they could who was saying what. Had the majority opinion been signed, it would have been quite apparent that Souter and Breyer, despite the majority's dishonest claims to the contrary, hadn't signed on to part I. But they wanted to make this case look less the political hackery it was, and to paper it over with as much of an air of "consensus" as they could manage. A further dishonesty (and a cowardly one).

    I'd note that this "7-2" meme that keeps getting sprayed around by the RW apologists is just further proof that the "7-2" claim is a political one; it's meant to prop up a sorry excuse for a decision in many ways (see Bugliosi's and Dershowitz's books for how bad it was) and support it through the logical fallacy of "argumentum ad numerum".

    But the "7-2" claim is false. Just read the first words of the dissents.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  178. Anonymous11:56 AM

    Arne,

    But the "7-2" claim is false. Just read the first words of the dissents.


    The 7-2 claim is true, just read the ruling opinion. Its stated therein and I quote "7 JUSTICES AGREE".
    Souter with Breyer joining refer to that exact part of the majority opinion in noting that the majority correctly points out the unconstitutional nature of the recount order, and then proceeds to state why he disagress with the majority's remedy/fix for this unconstitutional order.

    You attempt to argue that Breyer's and Souter's dissents express nothing different from Stevens and Ginsburg.

    This of course defies the plain text and actual words in the majority opinion AND in the Souter and Breyer dissents. If Souter and Breyer had said nothing different from Stevens and Ginsburg there would have been no need for Stevens and Ginsburg to except from their joining the Souter and Breyer dissents the exact portions of these dissents where Souter and Breyer admit/state the recount order is unconstitutional.

    Stevens and Ginsburg, for example, excepted from their joining of Souter's opinion, Section C thereof, which is NOT by coincendence the exact place in Souter's dissent where he admits the recount order is unconstitutional references with favorability the exact part of the majority opinion that states 7 judges agree about the unconstitutionality and then goes on to disagree about the remedy adopted to fix the agreed upon unconstitutionality.

    The opinion states in its text Seven judges say the recount order is unconstitutional and the only disagreement among the seven being the remedy that should be applied to fix this unconstitutional order.
    Souter and Breyer state in their dissents this is a true statement, which is why for example Breyer joins Souter's dissent INCLUDING section C of Souter's dissent, unlike Stevens and Ginsburg who disagree with Souter and Breyer on the issues covered in section C.

    Here's a clue for you. Try to figure out what is it about section C of Souter's dissent that Stevens and Ginsburg felt compelled NOT to join?

    Answer: Section C of Souter's dissent, joined by Breyer, explains that the recount order is in fact unconstitutional and Stevens and Ginsburg are the lone 2 justices who do NOT agree with that finding. Souter and Breyer on the other hand do agree with it and they form 2 of 7 judges who agree as stated in the text of the opinion.

    One has to think that an oddball partisan like yourself, not present for the discussions among the justices, knows just about NOTHING compared to the justices who were there and WROTE the text "7 judges agree".

    7 judges did agree, that's why Stevens and Ginsburg could NOT join in 100% of either Breyers or Souter's dissents.

    Its simple Arne, except for you. BTW, I did answer all your questions, several times in fact. You just ignore and/or fail to comprehend the answers just like you fail to comprehend the plain text of the opinions and fail to understand the difference between arguing let somebody else try to solve the UNCONSTITUTIONAL problem is NOT the same thing as saying there is NO Unconstitutional problem.

    You can have the last word tell me again about how the actual text of the opinion and dissents don't say what they say, but say what only you can divinely infer from the cracks between the words.

    LOL,

    You lose Arne, in more ways than one.

    Says the "Dog"

    ReplyDelete
  179. "The Dog" repeats himself:

    [Arne]: But the "7-2" claim is false. Just read the first words of the dissents.

    The 7-2 claim is true, just read the ruling opinion. Its stated therein and I quote "7 JUSTICES AGREE".

    I never said the majority didn't claim this; they did. I said their claim was false.

    Souter with Breyer joining refer to that exact part of the majority opinion ....

    Nope. No reference there. All they says is "as [the] Per Curiam opinion recognizes". (note, BTW, not "our per curiam" or "the first part of the per curiam with which we concur").

    But I've covered this before in previous posts. Here, just to help out the brain-dead a little, more of Souter's dissent:

    "A

    The 3 U. S. C. §5 issue is not serious. That provision sets ...

    B

    The second matter here goes to the State Supreme Court's interpretation of certain terms in the state statute governing election "contests," ....

    In sum, the interpretations by the Florida court raise no substantial question under Article II.

    C

    It is only on the third issue before us that there is a meritorious argument for relief, as this Court's Per Curiam opinion recognizes...."

    Souter was just saying it is only the third issue that had any substance at all. But he hardly "finds" a "equal protection" violation in either his opinion as to the disposition of the case, or in his explanation here. He's just saying that if there is to be a remedy ("In deciding what to do about this...."), he thinks that the majority "remedy" is erroneous, that there ought to be a remand, and the remand ought to take care to avoid such issues (which he noted might have been the case had the Supes not butted their head in in the first place: "If this Court had allowed the State to follow the course indicated by the opinions of its own Supreme Court, it is entirely possible that there would ultimately have been no issue requiring our review...").

    Hard to maintain he thought there was a problem when he explicitly noted that, absent any action on the part of the Supreme Court, there might not have been any issue (and further, explicitly said that the Supreme Court should not have gotten involved, period).

    [snip stuff covered above]

    You attempt to argue that Breyer's and Souter's dissents express nothing different from Stevens and Ginsburg.

    Nope. But I did say that Soiuter said he was in "substantial agreement" with all the other dissents. Notably lack is any mention of any disagreement with any of the dissents, or of any mention of any concurrence with either the holding of the per curiam or the remedy.

    [snip nonsense based on that "straw man"]

    Stevens and Ginsburg, for example, excepted from their joining of Souter's opinion, Section C thereof, ...

    Covered previously.

    [snip repetition]

    Here's a clue for you. Try to figure out what is it about section C of Souter's dissent that Stevens and Ginsburg felt compelled NOT to join?

    The remedy?

    In Ginzburg's case, she thinks even the "equal protection" stuff is bogus as a matter of law:

    "I agree with Justice Stevens that petitioners have not presented a substantial equal protection claim."

    So did Stevens, in a few more words:

    "Nor are petitioners correct in asserting that the failure of the Florida Supreme Court to specify in detail the precise manner in which the "intent of the voter," Fla. Stat. §101.5614(5) (Supp. 2001), is to be determined rises to the level of a constitutional violation."

    Answer: Section C of Souter's dissent, joined by Breyer, explains that the recount order is in fact unconstitutional ....

    Nope. If you think it does, quote the passage.

    On the contrary, seeing as Souter said that the Florida courts might possibly have proceeded without Supreme Court intervention, without any issue being raised, it sounds like he in fact disagrees with that specifically. If the recount order in and of itself was unconstitutional, he would hardly have said such.

    [snip further repetition]

    One has to think that an oddball partisan like yourself, not present for the discussions among the justices, knows just about NOTHING compared to the justices who were there and WROTE the text "7 judges agree".

    Those five judges weren't the ones holding the opinion at issue. Why you think they are a better authority as to the opinions of Breyer and Souter than the actual written opionions of Breyer and Souter themselves are, I don't know.

    [snip repetition]

    Its simple Arne, except for you. BTW, I did answer all your questions, several times in fact.

    Where? Keep in mind that others can't see your hallucinations....

    1). Why no "concurring in part..."

    2). What was Souter's first
    "erroneous decision" of the majority?

    3). Assuming Breeyer and Souter agreed there were "problems" that "demand[ed] a remedy", why did both Souter and Breyer say the Supreme Court shouldn't have even taken the case?

    4). Why the curious per curiam by the majority is such a high-profile case?

    [snip blather]

    You can have the last word tell me again about how the actual text of the opinion and dissents don't say what they say, but say what only you can divinely infer from the cracks between the words.

    Oh, I agree with you as to the first. The opinions says what you says it says. The opinion is wrong (as well as wrong on their assertion as to what the Florida Supreme Court said about the "safe-haven" provision, something I note you've not bothered to challenge with any quote from the Florida Supreme Court's opinion). The dissents say something else. I've pointed out to you what they do say (and also what they pointedly don't say). "The dog that didn't bark...."

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete