(updated below -- including a reply to Instapundit's response (See Update V))
One of the most destructive attributes in our political dialogue is the mindless embrace of notions of conventional wisdom, which just get repeated over and over by those who are too lazy to think critically about anything. And there are few places where conventional talking points thrive with as much vibrancy as they do on Instapundit's blog. Here is what Instapundit had to say about last night's Democratic Senate primary results in Virginia, where Jim Webb defeated Harris Miller for the right to challenge Republican Sen. George Allen:
A reader emails: "Don't you think it's also bad news for the left fringe of the Democrat party? I think it shows that voters will not support the Howard Dean-Kos-fringe and it makes for interesting times as Democrats try to find a presidental (sic) candidate for 2008." Yes, when Democrats move to the center, it's bad news for both Republicans and the Democratic far-left.
This is so blatantly wrong on so many levels, but Instapundit can't interpret political events without reliance on this childish framework, so he uses it because he has no other option. The choice between Harris Miller and Jim Webb was not a choice between some far left candidate versus a moderate or conservative candidate. To the contrary, Miller is a corporate lawyer and telecommunications lobbyist who was recruited to run, and actively supported by, former Virginia Governor Mark Warner, a moderate to conservative candidate (see Update below). On almost every issue, Miller positioned himself as a moderate. As The Washington Post put it when endorsing him: "there is no doubting the thought he has devoted to his positions, which are on the moderate end of the Democratic Party's spectrum."
Worse still for Instapundit's "point," Webb -- the former Secretary of Navy in the Reagan Administration and life-long Republican -- was supported, not opposed, by what Instapundit stupidly refers to as the "the Howard Dean-Kos-fringe." John Kerry supported and actively campaigned for Webb, and Kos himself endorsed Webb, not Miller, and said this:
Tomorrow's big contest is Virginia, were VA netroots favorite (and my own) Jim Webb takes on former corporate lobbyist Harris Miller. It's one of those campaigns were both the local netroots and establishment agree on the better candidate -- like the folks over at Raising Kane who love the hard-charging fighting Dem, as well as establishment Democrats like Chuck Schumer and John Kerry.
The leftist ideologue socialist fanatic fringe lunatic Kos also made this point before the primary:
There are lots of ex-Republican Democrats out there. I'm one of them. Jim Webb is another. And over time, we'll get more. And there's no stronger messenger for that cause than Jim Webb himself. . . . I'll be blunt. If Harris Miller wins, there probably won't be much of a Senate race in Virginia in November.
So the truth is, as is so often the case, the precise opposite of Instapundit's statements. Kos himself supported the winning candidate. So did the "leftist fringe" national political figures like John Kerry. And Webb's defeated opponent, far from being some sort of Hero of the Left, was a run-of-the-mill corporate lobbyist who positioned himself as a moderate to conservative on almost every issue. And yet those unfortunate souls who trust Instapundit's "analysis" and believe what he says are walking around today laboring under the standard fantasy that Webb's victory was a repudiation of the "the Howard Dean-Kos-fringe" even though that "fringe" supported Webb.
This is just one more misleading Instapundit post about a relatively obscure primary race, so why does this matter? Because this same fiction is repeated over and over in all corners and, despite its glaring falsity, has the status of conventional wisdom among the national media. Anti-Bush bloggers are leftist ideologues. Their goal is to force the Democratic Party to adopt ideologically leftist positions and therefore will ensure its defeat. Mainstream political figures like Howard Dean and John Kerry -- whose views on most issues are supported by the majority of Americans -- are fringe, extremist leftists whom the anti-Bush bloggers love because of their leftist extremism. And all of them are radioactive losers whose influence and even mere existence are fatal to Democrats.
This is the same intellectual sloth and dishonesty which enables the Instapundit's of the world, to this day, to continue to depict Howard Dean as being some sort of leftist extremist when Dean is one of the least ideological political figures on the national scene and, to the extent he can be ideologically characterized at all, is to the right of most national Democrats on most issues and has been for his entire career. What specific views does Dean hold, or Kos for that matter, which can be characterized by any honest person as "extremist"? While this conventional wisdom is spewed, that question is never answered. But Republicans have pounded that smear drum for so long, and the media has passively ingested and then disseminated it so thoroughly, that the Instapundit's of the world have had that "point" engrained in their head and can never do anything but repeat it endlessly despite its complete separation from what is real.
All week, as the television pundits were forced by the success of YearlyKos to talk about a blogosphere that they plainly don't understand and would vastly prefer to ignore, one was subjected to this fiction over and over. Bloggers are pushing Democrats to the fringe "Left" -- inhabited by socialist revolutionaries like Howard Dean and Al Gore -- and their growing influence therefore poses a serious problem for Democrats, who have to move away from those sorts of extremist freaks if they have any chance whatsoever of finally ending their streak of being rejected by normal Americans.
It's not a surprise that Instapundit reflexively recites this trite world view, although it matters because he has a readership larger than most American daily newspapers. I wonder whether Instapundit (pundit@instapundit.com) will retract his false claim that the Virginia result represents a repudiation of the "the Howard Dean-Kos-fringe" given that this "fringe" supported the winning candidate. And I wonder further what has to happen for people like Instapundit and his intellectual twins in the national media to cease referring to individuals with plainly mainstream positions as constituting some sort of extremist fringe.
UPDATE: James Norton has published a superb op-ed in the Christian Science Monitor detailing the views of the Founding Fathers with regard to the treatment of war prisoners -- views which are, unsurprisingly, squarely at odds with the views of the current administration.
UPDATE II: As a reminder: I will be in DC tonight beginning at 6:30 p.m,, speaking about the book at an event sponsored by Drinking Liberally, at Mark & Orlando’s (2nd Floor Bar -- 2020 P Street NW). The details are here.
Tomorrow night (Thursday), I will be in New York for a book party at Rudy’s Bar & Grill -- 627 Ninth Ave. (between 44th and 45th Streets). It begins at 6:00 p.m. Several excellent bloggers based in New York have told me they intend to come, and it should be a worthwhile event. And on Saturday (June 17) at 8:00 p.m., I am speaking at the Writer’s Voice Series, at the West Side YMCA, The George Washington Lounge, located at 5 W. 63rd St. (between CPW & Bway).
UPDATE III: Libertarian Ronald Bailey of Reason, who has not voted for a single Democrat since 1972, explains today why he voted for Jim Webb and intends to support Democrats this year (h/t Hypatia). As I explained in this post some time ago, I think Democrats can count on support from people who aren't typically inclined to vote for Democrats but who view gridlock and balance as vastly preferable to the corruption and ineptitude generated by one-party Republican rule. Democrats ought to actively court people like this by emphasizing the virtues of partisan balance.
UPDATE IV: Apparently, Warner only supported Miller up until the point when Webb announced he would enter the race. Once that happened, Warner declared neutrality and participated in a fundraiser for Webb (having previously done so for Miller).
UPDATE V: Reynolds' reply to this post is about as coherent and honest as the original Reynolds post which prompted this. Contrary to his self-serving characterization, I didn't criticize him because he innocently "missed the fact that the Kos crowd had backed James Webb." The point is that he interpreted the results as a repudiation of the "the Howard Dean-Kos-fringe" without having any basis whatsoever for making that claim, because that cheap, trite "fringe" name-calling -- which is designed to demonize mainstream Democrats -- is the only framework people like Reynolds have for understanding political events.
Reynolds then misleads his readers into thinking that I posted this criticism of him only after he updated his post ("I updated it when Markos and others emailed me, but that didn't stop Glenn Greenwald from putting up a post savaging me for the error . . . "). In fact, I posted this well before he updated his post, an update of which I was unaware until much later due to the fact that I'm travelling on my book tour, don't regularly read Instapundit, and he provided no link to my post when updating his. It's highly likely that Markos was able to e-mail Instapundit to correct him only as a result of seeing my post (which Markos then linked to) or hearing from my readers.
In any event, the link to the Reynolds post in my post here takes the reader directly to the "updated" material, such that anyone clicking on it would see it. And the "update" never addresses the central point -- how Reynolds could expressly attribute these Virginia results to a rejection of the Kos-Dean "fringe" when there was never any even theoretical basis for telling his readers such a thing. He simply invented it out of whole cloth to fit in with his stunted understanding of political events. Nor does he address why he smears Howard Dean and Kos as being part of a "fringe" even though virtually every political view they have is well within the political mainstream.
In his reply, Reynolds also indulges in what has become the depressingly common and usually dishonest tactic of whining that he is being abused by "illiterate" e-mailers. He complains that he has been subject to a "steady trickle of mostly illiterate emails from Greenwald readers" (emphasis added). Given that my posts are typically lengthy and well-documented discussions of matters such as executive power theories and constitutional principles, I highly doubt that I can count many illiterate people among my readership. Such individuals would seem far more inclined to be attracted to bloggers whose "content" consists of a carousel of the same one-word, empty cliches spat out over and over ("Indeed. Interesting. Heh."). Other bloggers who have been the target of criticism of mine in the past -- including Jonah Goldberg and Joe Mancow -- have been honest enough to admit that the e-mails they received from my readers were both civil and substantive.
Finally, Reynolds claims that I "ha[ve] a thing about [him]." In response to this post, I received an e-mail from a prominent blogger bringing to my attention some amazingly hostile exchanges he had with Reynolds from a couple of years ago, and in response, I e-mailed back and wrote this:
I actually appreciate people like Michelle Malkin and John Hinderaker for at least having the courage of their convictions. They don't hide what they are.
But Reynolds' need to parade around as the moderate, reasonable libertarian - always promoting and applauding the grossest extremism while staying safe enough distance away from it to give plausible deniability - is inherently deceitful to its core.
Whether that qualifies as having "a thing" for Reynolds is really just semantics, but I will confess to finding the common tactics Reynolds uses -- for instance, labelling his political opponents part of the "fringe" even though it is Reynolds' pro-war views which are rejected by majorities of Americans, or linking to and promoting repugnant arguments only to then claim that he "only" linked to it when he is called to account -- to be the opposite of argumentative integrity and honesty.
Nobody takes lies like you, puts them next to clear facts, and proves what dishonest unethical worms they are, the way you do. Good work as always.
ReplyDeleteIf Insty had a molecule of integrity, he'd retract his claim. That's why I know we will get nothing but silence from him.
Oh come on. This isn't news. The right wingers have always enjoyed inventing their own reality. You know, like Reagan's tough talk brought Communism down, Clinton had nothing to do with a balanced budget, the media is controlled by liberals, the recession started before Bush entered office, no one could have imagined planes hitting buildings, Republicans are the party of fiscal discipline, the UN is a failed institution, Clear Skies, Healty Forests, No Child Left Behind, etc.
ReplyDeleteBut if they keep repeating it endlessly with robot-like discipline, some lazy reporters will parrot it in legitimate stories and it becomes adopted as sound conventional wisdom.
Oh come on. This isn't news.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it isn't news to you. But it's obviously news to a lot of people who believe this crap. Documenting these lies and how they work with such clarity and evidence is a great value this blog provides. We need a lot more of that.
That would be "Instapundit", not "Insatpundit" (some telecommunications wag?) in the head....
ReplyDeleteCheers,
"...I wonder further what has to happen for people like Instapundit and his intellectual twins in the national media to cease referring to individuals with plainly mainstream positions as constituting some sort of extremist fringe.”
ReplyDeleteSuperman would have to reverse-spin the Earth approximately 18,250,000 times to get us back in time where Joey the Cave Painter, after drawing the Modigliani-like face on the walls of a cave near Angoulême in western France, is being accosted by Todd the Small Animal Torturer who is suggesting that Joey is a sexually ambiguous, time-wasting extremist who deserves a thorough thrashing with a large club, and intervene in some recombinant DNA gene therapy to remove the ass from Todd’s frontal lobe. Otherwise, all of these bile-spewing Neanderthals will continue to club the thinkers and artists into sublimation.
Instapundit and the other intellectual barnacles clinging to the rusting hull of the media, are really not worth the time it takes to shine a dull flashlight upon them. Their invectives are just part of the noise.
I just listened to Bush give a press conference. He summed up his Iraq policies, claimed successes, and his vacuous future hopefulness in simplistic, children’s book-like language that masked the insidious lies, hegemony, vile greed, and murderous intent of his evil cabal of miscreants and corporate enablers. Now, that was scary.
Glenn, it's probably worth pointing out that Howard Dean didn't endorse either candidate, which makes sense given his job description.
ReplyDelete"to a liar, the truth may wear a crooked face" - J.R.R. Tolkien
ReplyDeleteIt's obvious when you've fallen off the end of the right wing spectrum, and worked hard to drag the mythical "centre" to where the right used to be, you can thus call former centrists "extreme left."
They hate Kos and the bloggers because they do fear they'll be able to shake the Democrats out of their 12 year nosedive. They know that Democrats are the natural governing party of America and only because things went very wrong for them are the republicans able to institute government for the elite, by the elite.
So they try and claim people like Lieberman are "moderate Democrats" - Lieberman would be a moderate Republican I'd say, but he's an extremely conservative democrat. Or more accurately, he's an extremely republican democrat.
Oh, and I wonder if they'll ever grudgingly admit this is another victory for Kos's track record, which they take such glee in claiming he has no wins. Except Dean for DNC, Tester for Montana, Obama for Senate, the two gubernatorial victories of 2005 and now Webb.
Reality is unfortunatly much more malleable than we give it credit for. There is however a genuine difference between those of us who seek truth in spite of our preconceptions and those who seek preconceptions in spite of reality.
ReplyDeleteOh, and I wonder if they'll ever grudgingly admit this is another victory for Kos's track record,
ReplyDeleteThey won't. That's what I find so astounding. Kos comes out and urges support for Webb - a former Navy Secretary in the Reagan Administration.
Then, when Webb wins, deceivers like Instapundit say that this represents another defeat, another repudiation, for the Dean-Kos fringe. The amount of dishonesty required to do that is staggering. And I know people will e-mail Instapundit and point out his error, and he will say nothing, only compounding his gross dishonesty.
Reynold's, an ostensible libertarian who at least used to read Reason, might want to know that Reason’s arch-libertarian, Ron Bailey, voted for the raging, Kos-endorsed leftist Jim Webb:
ReplyDeleteToday I'm going to do something that I have never done—I will vote in Virginia's Democratic Party primary….As for my first ever Democratic primary vote—I'm going cast my ballot for James Webb.
Read why Bailey thinks the GOP deserves to be abandoned, at least for now. He essentially speaks for many libertarians. Maybe someone should tell Instapundit.
The new meme is that Kos only backs losers, I think the shorthand is something like 0-20, etc.
ReplyDeleteWhich of course, ignores people like Barack Obama and Stephanie Herseth, both of which were endorsed by Kos fairly early and won office.
So, this fits into the CW: Webb won, so Kos must have backed the loser, Miller. No need to check who Kos actually supported.
BTW, how many times has support from Instapundit made the difference in fundraising or votes? Where's the Republican Bloggers Annual Convention, where people fly in on their own dime to listen to candidates and talk strategy? How many GOP Presidential candidates are jockeying for Instapundit's endorsement?
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteThere is only ONE thing that needs to be "shouted from the roof tops: The Bush Administration has no INTEGRITY!!
At least part of this has to do with the cognitive dissonance which extremist right-wingers experience when facts smash their cherished dogmas to powder...they cannot stand to experience this cognitive dissonance, so they latch onto--or create--any small fictions or distortions of reality than can in order to shore up their insupportable faith-based "reality." Aside from the political and rhetorical uses of such dishonesty, it serves the necessary psychological function of allowing the anguished zealots to ignore the truth and burrow ever deeper into their deeply-held delusions.
ReplyDeleteThis is true of zealots of all stripes, not just right-wingers, but at this moment, extremist right-wingers are the most visible and the most desperate to maintain their fantasy-world.
Instapundit has always been a fake libertarian. He thinks it sounds cooler than "conservative", but his views on 9/10 topics line up with the big-government Republicans.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, Excellent post. The answers to the questions you pose originate in the bogus framework that informs all political debate. The Right has been successful in "framing" political dialog for the last 20 years or so.
ReplyDeleteThey have divided the world between left and right and tagged the extreme left with being socialists/communists. This division itself goes back to the 50s, with the successful fear campaign run by politicians in the country to fight a perceived Red Menace.
How many people actually understand political differences of this kind is, of course, up in the air. Whether your normal Jane Doe would know what particular stances a socialist or communist holds is debtable.
Yet, that does not matter; what does is the perception that the press has of these political philosophies. Educated with a smattering of political and historical understanding, journalists and others in the media simply rely on those who supposedly know the threats that face us--the think tanks and inside sources.
The Right has created a convenient filtering system which parses out reality and political questions so that they can then be fed in easily digestible bits to an information-hungry public.
The conventional wisdom among political scientists and campaign consultants is that voters tend toward the center--however that is defined. But the question is, who gets to define the extremes? and what are their agendas? And would voters always vote for the so-called "center" if the issues were really debated?
As many know, the tools of modern political consulting include polling, focus groups, and grassroots networking from the top (also called "astroturfing"). These tools enable political operatives to form their campaigns around simple wedge issues that are then packaged into visually stimulating and provocative bits of "real" information. In this way, a voter decides their vote not on a reasoned understanding of issues but merely a visceral, gut reaction to artfully constructed stimuli devised by politicos adept at manipulating emotions.
The blogosphere--if it's to gain any influence in the political world--has several options open to it. It can 1) serve as a forum for free and open discussion that undermines the think-tank hegemony, 2) freely and honestly debate issues without the prevailing filtering system consstructed by the prevailing political interests, 3) act as a conduit for information that bypasses the filtering processes imposed by the MSM.
Whether the blogosphere can successfully change politics will depend on how well it gains influence within 1) the political establishment and 2) the general public.
The political establishment is wary of the blogosphere because there's some question about the linkage between it and real voters. Does the blogosphere represent or reach into the motivating factors that get people to the polls? Does it represent public opinion? Unfortunately, the politicos will decide this question as they always do: with polls and focus groups.
Gaining influence with the public is questionable itself. While more and more people are gaining access to the Internet, the informational diet has been even more restricted by the way that people filter information.
Much of this seems to offer the hope of a technical adjustment to fix the problems. I suggest that this is just one more superficial fix. The problem is much more fundamental. It gets into the "vocabulary" and "grammar" of the concepts and meanings that inform the political landscape.
This is commonly known as culture; obviously, the Right has been more adept at controlling and manipulating the culural values and imagery than has the Left. By doing so, it can then gain ground on the much more practical field of political operations and electioneering.
All in all, then, those who wish to change the political landscape must begin to address the most fundamental questions that humans face as human beings. Until an alternative cultural vocabulary and grammar can find its way into the hearts and minds of everyday voters, the Right's filtering system will continue to amass votes and structure politics in this country.
People who own the megaphone can be completely shameless about accuracy or civility. They're immune to the normal kinds of correction because the audience, and their opponents, can't talk back. They end up in a child's dream world of wish-fullfillment where they always get their way and no one ever opposes them.
ReplyDeleteI believe that some of them, at some level, know what they're doing and what they are. Others, I think, are just completely cynical, self-centered, success-worshipper (like all too many other Americans.)
It's in many respects an oral tradition, too -- at least on TV. It's always Now, and what someone said last week can be forgotten if it's inconvenient.
Bailey called voting for Democrats - in the hopes of gridlocking the gov't and getting some investigations of executive authority started - "patriotic duty".
ReplyDeleteI thought that was fairly significant.
Glenn, I don't think it's sloth or sloppiness. This is a meme they must see prevail, or lose their (illegitimate) claim to be libertarians/centrists/representatives of popular opinion.
ReplyDeleteI noticed this years ago. When Limbaugh had a late night (not late enough) syndicated TV show with a studio audience.
ReplyDeleteHe took a video clip from former head of Veterans Affairs Jesse Brown and spun it to the point I thought he was talking about another video clip and a Jesse Brown who lived in a parallel universe.
It was blatantly obvious that Brown never said anything remotely close to what Oxy Boy was talking about.
Limbaugh's audience nodded in unison agreement with him. Not one person shook their head no or even had a look of befuddlement.
In other words he insulted their intelligence and the audience willingly went along with it.
It's gotten worse now.
I'm one of those wildass far left ideologues that Instapundit loves to parody. I'm all for a balanced budget, keeping government out of our personal lives, a cautious and sensible foreign policy, and wise stewardship of our natural resource base. Crazy, ultraliberal stuff like that.
ReplyDeleteAbout this Administration,
ReplyDeleteWe're using far too many words. There are far too many commentaries. There is far too much analyzing. Far too many loud voices that CAN'T offer a solution. Far to few quiet voices that maybe COULD.Why, you might ask, do I say that? Because, my fellow citizens, at the end of the day we throw up our collective hands as our DECIDER pulls another one!!
What this Administration has done to this nation is akin to what we were told in car sales training: "Throw enough s--- on the wall, some is bound to stick"
To unstick it, we MUST use a simple approach. (KISS)
The letter below is a suggestion. Can anyone come up with a better one?
__________________________________
LACK OF INTEGRITY
The problem with this administration that has occupied Washington, and
the American psyche, for all of these years is that it suffers from a severe
LACK OF NTEGRITY. When the public is subjected to such a government,
the result is a people covered by endless clouds of uncertainty and
mistrust. That translated simply means that virtually everybody knows
that SOMETHING is wrong but they are more or less at loss to really
identify it. What to do about it? The answer to that one should be painfully
obvious.
The American psyche has developed what I call the "Rodney Dangerfield
Syndrome".
The insightful Mr Dangerfield quipped on one of the talk shows that: "My
wife wanted me to take my Viagra with Prune Juice. I did, but then I
couln't tell if I was COMING OR GOING"! A government devoid of integrity
will do that to a nation! Integity should always be the center of the radar
because everything moving out from that center, and, everything
attracted to it will be thusly influenced.
I coined a phrase of sorts about the party currently in power. It says:
"Republicans are INCAPABLE of telling the truth"! If you think about it for
a moment, you should be able to see the huge difference between, "they
all lie", and that phrase. I developed that train of thought as an
alternative to being consumed by the "changing realities" that are heaped
on us almost daily.
To get this country back on the right track, to clear up the American
psyche, the Deomcrats must, with one voice, (voiciferously ) renounce
everything this administration stands for and publicly accuse them of
displaying a severe LACK OF INTEGRITY in dealing with the citizens of
this country. they must start TODAY! Also, last and certainly not least, if
they don't do that, your defeat this fall will be assured.
Their speeches must be peppered with this administration lack of
integrity. Make it subliminal. Call a press conference to announce that
you've suddenly awakened, if you must, introduce a bill, but unite and
put this country on notice that YOU will be conducting the people's
business with the utmost of INTEGRITY!
You need to show us that YOU know if you're coming or going!
To unstick it, we MUST use a simple approach.
ReplyDeleteOK genius - if it's such a great message, why don't you start your own blog. Every day, scream THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS NO INTEGRITY!!! and nothing else. See how far you can get. I can see the revolution now.
Like their national Elephant leaders, blogs such as Instapundit and their ilk are peddling whatever they think serves their political purposes. The 'conservative' movement has gone from ideologues to apologists. The more they put out these unsubstantiated talking points the less folks will listen to them, thank God. Like Bush's constant drumbeat of 'good times a comin' in Iraq, Instapundit's dire predictions about 'leftist' losses are wishful thinking. How many people actually read Instapundit anyway?
ReplyDeleteGreat post.
ReplyDeleteRe: Treatment of POWs, even Napoleon knew this.
"The barbarous custom of having men beaten who are suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this way of interrogating men, by putting them to torture, produces nothing worthwhile."
Napoleon to Berthier 11 Nov 1798, Corres., V, no. 3606 p. 128 quoted in - Napoleon on the Art of War
Reynolds did update that post with this:
ReplyDeleteAnd other readers (including Markos) write to note that Kos endorsed him, so I guess Kos and I like the same guy, though I suspect we see different virtues in him. And if supporting gay rights makes you a left-liberal, then what am I?
Upside for the Dems -- they've got a Kos candidate with crossover appeal! Like fellow Democrat Phil Bredesen, he doesn't exude contempt for Red-State America. It'll be interesting to see if they can keep that going through November.
I guess it didn’t occur to the ol’ perfesser to find out what Kos’s position actually was before writing this post – it wouldn’t have been that hard – even for Instapudit.
I love the threads where the righties have nothing to say. Even they can't defend Instapundit here, as he claims Kos backed the loser, when in fact he backed Webb long before Webb's candidacy was even considered viable.
ReplyDeleteIt's obvious Instapundit knows this, but he's working on building the meme that the liberal blogs are electoral poison, and if they have to lie to make that one true, they will. Watch for more of this in future - every big dem primary, they'll try and claim Kos et al backed the loser. Oh, and of course they'll croon about every safe republican seat that stays republican where the challenging dem was liked by progressives.
They refuse to acknowledge the difference between supporting a longshot because they sometimes pay off and the practical politics of choosing the more likely dem victor even though they lack ideological purity.
Oh, and if Webb loses in November, I'm sure Instapundit will refer back to Glenn's post and say how this somehow proves him right. Kos backed the loser...Webb. (spin that around in your head for a bit, it makes sense to them)
To Mr Warner:
ReplyDeleteWhat's your point?
David Shaughnessy writes: That's the Democrats' pitch? Vote for us so nothing gets done? Compelling it is not.
ReplyDeleteIt need not be pitched exactly that way to libertarians like me or Bailey. Bailey also recited a litany of GOP abominations coming from this Administration and its Congress that he, as a libertarian, finds intolerable, and he acknowledges that Congress needs to be Dem-controlled if Executive malfeasance is to be properly investigated. Many libertarians will react positively to such a message that: "we[Dems} will tend to such oversight/investigations, and not do the same abominable things ourselves".
Libertarians have increasingly become disgusted with the GOP. A lot of us voted for Reagan, and he grotesquely escalated the so-called “war on drugs.” (For decades, that has been my primary issue of domestic concern.) But this Bush regime, along with Frist and others, is beyond revolting to principled libertarians.
We libertarians are rarely going to be partisan members of the Democratic Party. We float to wherever our values are best (or less badly) vindicated. Today, that means some movement toward Democrats, at least w/ regard to ending total GOP hegemony. As Glenn has written, we are are an under-exploited voting bloc that is greatly dissatisfied with Bush’s GOP.
Dems don’t need to tell us they are going to abandon all interest in entitlement programs, affirmative action & etc.,(we expect y’all to behave like Democrats), but Dems/progressives might also cease reviling and mischaracterizing libertarians’ values and concerns, and instead -- to use Glenn’s word above -- “court” our votes.
On your update III I agree wholeheartedly. I've been telling libertarian sorts that 'divided government is small government' and talking about exploding spending with them for a while now. A lot of them are semi brainwashed with the 'tax and spend liberal' meme, but the ones who are open to new information seem pretty persuadable.
ReplyDeleteGlenn,
ReplyDeleteNice post but I take issue with your title. Nobody is forced to read the mindless drivel posted by instafool. Any injury suffered by reading his blog is self inflicted.
Paul Rosemburg:
ReplyDelete[quoting "Ender" (hopefully a different one than we see hereabouts)]: Coulterization of the GOP is your own doing.
I read enough on that thread to get the gist of it: "Ender" is an eedjit.
Cheers,
That's the Democrats' pitch? Vote for us so nothing gets done? Compelling it is not.
ReplyDeleteFirst Do No Harm
I find it QUITE compelling.
That and the fact that we shouldn't be rewarding incompetence.
Paul: I think Coulter's strategy is quite smart. She uses such wedge issues as the perception of political correctness, white rage at affirmative action, Xtian resurgence, so-called cultural relativism and drives the wedge even deeper, attempting thereby to polarize voters.
ReplyDeleteMany people see her as an advocate for opinions and feelings that they otherwise can't or "aren't allowed" to express because of the perceived PCness. What is perceived as PCness, however, is simply the inability to or indifference to various forms of discussion and debate. It's much easier to "feel" outrage--which enlivens the alienated soul of many--than to have to decide between opposing arguments that provide seemingly valid and rational premises.
I know this seems obvious, but that it is so obvious is often lost in the manipulated and artificially created landscape of political vocabulary and grammar.
Democrats ought to actively court people like this by emphasizing the virtues of partisan balance.
ReplyDeleteTalk about conventional wisdom and the dangers therein.
Partisan balance in 2006 means two parties trying to dismantle the Constitutional Republic, endorse war crimes and crimes against humanity and line their pockets. Feingold is a total hypocrite. Speaks out against the President breaking the law, then votes for Social Security benefits for illegal immigrants, throwing the American middle class to the lions for the next century and probably forever. Hasta la vista working class America.
Kos thinks Big Government can reign in the big, corrupt government corporate subsidiaries, showing a fourth grade understanding of economics and failing to note that Big Government is what created those monsters in the first place.
Google is building the world's largest spying facility and will be wearing an Orwell mask come next Halloween. The next Halloween they won't need the mask anymore.
Partisan balance 2006=balanced ignorance and corruption.
Partisan balance 20006 =conventional wisdom run amok.
Dream on.
To all of the people commenting here. The number one crisis facing this country as we speak is the Administration occupying Washington. Could I get a big 10/4 on that?
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the insta- and other pundits see their audience not so much as the public at large, but more narrowly as the army of "play it safe" democrat 'consultants' roaming the DC streets.
ReplyDeleteOf all political players, they (the 'consultants') are the easiest to influence. Because they are so scared of being labeled a leftist liberal, they are naturally inclined to believe what Reynolds and others like him are saying.
And if they (the 'consultants') would follow this advice, like many still do today, Instapundit's prophecy would become self-fulfilling.
Divide and conquor.
Please, PLEASE bring the book tour to Philly! We have a FUN Drinking Liberally group here (with a well-known blogger or two oftern in attendance...)
ReplyDelete.
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteUPDATE: James Norton has published a superb op-ed in the Christian Science Monitor detailing the views of the Founding Fathers with regard to the treatment of war prisoners -- views which are, unsurprisingly, squarely at odds with the views of the current administration.
Let's take a look at what Mr. Norton has to say...
At Guantánamo Bay this past weekend, three internees - or prisoners, or detainees, or whatever you want to call human beings jailed indefinitely without conviction and with no hope of legal recourse - committed suicide.
The Founders provided recourse in the civilian courts to captured enemy prisoners? News to me.
The American Civil Liberties Union has compiled thousands of documents relating to torture of prisoners in US custody, including FBI memos complaining about military abuses at Guantánamo Bay. Details include prisoners being left in straitjackets in intense sunlight with hoods over their heads, and "military guards ... slapping prisoners, stripping them, pouring cold water over them and making them stand until they got hypothermia." At its root, the very idea of Guantánamo Bay runs headfirst into what it means to be an American.
:::chuckle:::
Does this man claim to be an historian? I would recommend that you folks read some actual books how we have treated legal uniformed combatants over the years.
"...being left in straitjackets in intense sunlight with hoods over their heads?" Did the poor babies get hot and bothered. Thousands of POWs have died in our custody from lack of food, shelter and exposure to the elements.
Slapping? Good God! Just taking a prisoner often takes far more physical force than a slap. If the prisoner does not understand your language, you have to shove him to the ground, search him for weapons, tie him up if you have means to secure him and then prod or shove them to where you want them to go.
The US has (or had) a worldwide reputation for promoting human rights. That reputation was earned by its struggle - often against itself, as was the case during the fight against slavery, and the civil rights movement - to protect individuals against systems that would otherwise mistreat them.
Is this person actually impliedly comparing captured terrorists with abolitionists or civil rights demonstrators? I should stop reading right now. He has no concept of war.
The roots of that reputation run deep, reaching back to the Enlightenment ideals that gave birth to the essential protections of the Constitution.
Hero, the constitutional protections have never been extended to enemy combatants.
But George Washington and his compatriots took their founding principles quite seriously. On Aug. 11, 1775, Washington sent a blistering letter to a British counterpart, Thomas Gage. He complained about gravely wounded and untreated American soldiers being thrown into a jail with common criminals.
Did anyone else pick up on this bit of hypocrisy?
The author started out by moaning that the al Qaeda who killed themselves were not being treated like common criminals with access to our courts. Now, he is citing George Washington condemning just that practice by the British, which BTW was perfectly proper since our troops were traitors. See Padilla.
Eight days later, despite threatening to treat British soldiers with equal cruelty, Washington admitted that he could not and would not retaliate in kind, writing: "Not only your Officers, and Soldiers have been treated with a Tenderness due to Fellow Citizens, & Brethren; but even those execrable Parricides [traitors] whose Counsels & Aid have deluged their Country with Blood, have been protected from the Fury of a justly enraged People."
Imagine that; a government on the run fighting a desperate war against a hated enemy and treating captured prisoners with compassion and decency.
Folks, the captured British soldiers had far less lush accommodations and food than do the detainees at "Club Gitmo." They were usually detained out in the open or in tents and were very poorly fed. Many died of exposure and disease.
Alexander Hamilton, while commanding soldiers against the British, prevented what could have been a massacre. After the siege of Yorktown, one of Hamilton's captains, eager for revenge against the British, was about to run a prisoner through with his bayonet.
Hamilton stepped in personally to stop the man, and later reported proudly: "Incapable of imitating examples of barbarity and forgetting recent provocations, the soldiers spared every man who ceased to resist."
Strawman argument. When have we massacred al Qaeda prisoners?
It can be argued, of course, that captured British soldiers are hardly equivalent to the type of men held at Guantánamo Bay. The soldiers fought in uniform; the detainees at Gitmo were terrorists, working undercover. Washington would have had them hanged. True enough...
FINALLY, someone recognizes the difference between legal and illegal combatants!
True enough - except that we don't actually know how many of them were terrorists working undercover. Most were detained on evidence too flimsy to hold up under trial, according to declassified documents from the Department of Defense and reporting in the staunchly nonpartisan National Journal.
:::chuckle:::
1) The documents released were redacted and most of the testimony was at the detainees status hearings was not released at all.
2) The National Journal piece was a hatchet job. The author used only one source - the attorneys who have self appointed themselves as the representatives of the enemy combatants and the documents which they provided. There was not a single attempt to interview the military or any other source.
The evidence suggests that many - perhaps most - of the detainees are guilty of nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
This is a flat out lie. He does not have the evidence.
You don't have to be a historian or political scientist to realize that it's high time the US government took a step back toward its founding principles and shut down Guantánamo Bay.
And do what George Washington would have done - hang the detainees on the spot?
mnpundit hit the nail on the head.
ReplyDeleteSome of the redacted documents were the DoD's own determinations about the detainees. The DoD made the determination that most of those detained were not al qaeda, and had at best spurious connections to the Taliban. This is from a different report than the National Journal one. How anyone can talk that away is beyond me.
ReplyDeleteBart the Barbarian, with his implicit and explicit endorsement of abuse of captives held by us, as well as with his condescending little :::chuckles::: at the suggestion that, heaven forfend, even in the absence of American law or Constitutional application we should consider treating human beings AS human beings and not as dogs to be whipped, merely confirms what I pointed out a week or so back, that among those who stand on the side of civilized behavior and those who stand on the side of barbarism, Bart surely stands with the latter.
ReplyDeleteAnd, of course, as will all brutes sure of their righteousness, he doesn't hesitate to describe inaccurately those whom we abuse, the better to distance himself from our appalling treatment of them. He acknowledges the suggestions that many of those at Guantanamo are not enemy combatants but merely hapless men caught up in dragnets or kidnapped and sold for bounty by Afghan warlords, only to offer speculative argument to dismiss out of hand any such suggestions. He calls the allegations of the possible innocence of any of these men a "flat out lie," yet he is in no position to know. Of course, this does not mitigate in the least his authoritarian impulse to assume only the worst of these men...a reflex that seems odd for an "officer of the court," and one which would give our Founders great pause.
Yet, unless we allow these men their day in court, we will never know who among them may have been actual combatants and who not. And even those who may have been combatants are entitled to better treatment than we have meted out to them.
Bart is a traitor to America. His arguments aid and abet Osama bin Laden in his goal to destroy us. Bart is an inside agent of Al Qaeda.
Hume's Ghost said...
ReplyDeleteSome of the redacted documents were the DoD's own determinations about the detainees. The DoD made the determination that most of those detained were not al qaeda, and had at best spurious connections to the Taliban. This is from a different report than the National Journal one. How anyone can talk that away is beyond me.
Link please?
Report on Gitmo Detainees
ReplyDeleteHume's Ghost said...
ReplyDeleteReport on Gitmo Detainees
Thanks! It's 28 pages long so I'll read it tonight.
I have seen this meme about encouraging disaffected conservatives and the like, to vote for Democrats in an effort to create gridlock, or balance, or whatever euphemism that the author likes for divided government. I don't like it one bit, because we are essentially asking for votes because we are less onerous than the repuglicans. Is that the message that we really want to send. Our message should be you should vote for us because we have better ideas, and more ability to run the country. This "vote for balance" is lamer than a "Third Way". Its possible that it might be our only hope since the DNC seems hell bent on squandering what advantages we have been given by the incompetents & crooks running the country now, but is that going to create a lasting majority?!?!?! Two hacks drawing together will not create the Mona Lisa. We are essentially buying into, 'yeah, they've got better ideas, but their crooks and we're not'...Really?!?!?
ReplyDeleteDavid Shaugnessy, explaining to us why Glenn Greenwald is a moron for working with the Democratic Party:
ReplyDeleteWe are all Americans and if we get decent leadership we can address the grave problems we face. But not if the primary goal is to attack or neutralize one party or the other. That is a colossal waste of time and effort. We can do better than that. Much better.
That’s why David spends his time attacking Glenn and the Democratic Party in the attempt to neutralize them. His answer, according to the link he gave us is: Unity O8.
Jane Hamsher has some thoughts about what Unity 08 is doing:
The more I think about the idea that all those Unity 08 pricks setting up shop to "urge" Joe Lieberman into an independent run, the more I want to smack myself on the forehead and say "how did I miss that." I don’t know that they’ll actually do it, but the framework is certainly in place if the need arises. It’s no coincidence that it happening along side the rising power of the Netroots. When the DLC types get targeted for fucking up the party and standing for nothing more than fattening their own larders, they’ve got to have some place to jump. Now we know where that is.
“Unity 08 pricks” does have a certain ring to it doesn’t it?
Lieberman has endorsed and supported many of Bush's worst ideas. And this Unity 08 group is attempting to neutralize and destroy the very people that Glenn Greenwald is now working with.
Enough said about where David is these days.
From the official website of the
ReplyDeleteMarine Corps Interrogator Translator Teams Association:
THE USE OF "TORTURE" IN INTERROGATION
Maj. Anthony F. Milavic, USMC (Ret.)
19 May 2005
Obviously, even they do not agree with Bart, Abu Gonzales or Bush.
HWSNBN tilks at the windmills of his mind:
ReplyDeleteThe Founders provided recourse in the civilian courts to captured enemy prisoners? News to me.
That wasn't the subject (not that HWSNBN would notice). It had to do with treatment of prisoners in captivity. That is to say: No torture!
HWSNBN loves tossing out "straw men". But adressing his little feint here: Two and a quarter centuries ago, there was neither the Geneva Conventions nor the Bill of Rights. In addition, even nowadays, POWs, if charged with a crime, are entitled to the same judicial proceedings as would members of the detaining party's armed forces; military courts martial, if that is what the detaining powers would give their own servicemen.
So even his "straw man" is insubstantial.
But to the tilt ol' Don Quixote goes, in an effort to prop up an lawless maladministration....
Cheers,
I have seen this meme about encouraging disaffected conservatives and the like, to vote for Democrats in an effort to create gridlock...
ReplyDeleteUnity 08 is ridiculous. This country needs to go "hard a port" to avoid the rocks. Whether that means reversing all engines or full steam ahead depends on how close to the rocks we really are. I'd say pretty damn close and a little slowing down before we put the pedal to the metal and go full steam ahead to port isn't necessarily a bad thing. Like it or not, that's what's going to happen, we will go pretty headlong left and if you have a problem with it you might consider emigrating. The two party system tends to do this, not unlike a pendulum.
Now I can sort of understand why John McCain (who needs to appeal to the extremist base of the Republican Party) won’t criticize Ann Coulter for her smears of 9/11 widows, but what, pray tell, is Unity O8’s hero Joe Lieberman’s excuse?
ReplyDeleteJoe Conason calls them out:
But that was then, and this is now—and these two pious politicians remain silent in the face of a malevolent attack visited on their erstwhile friends. Both men know that it is a lie to call these women partisans or profiteers. Both know that these women—and the families they helped to lead—brought honor and purpose to a legislative process that is often petty and corrupt.
Shame on the silent Senators. And please, let’s hear no more from either of them for a while about tolerance, respect and decency.
HWSNBN sez:
ReplyDeleteDoes this man claim to be an historian? I would recommend that you folks read some actual books how we have treated legal uniformed combatants over the years.
Of course, the troll HWSNBN doesn't bother citing any, much less quoting from them....
"...being left in straitjackets in intense sunlight with hoods over their heads?" Did the poor babies get hot and bothered. Thousands of POWs have died in our custody from lack of food, shelter and exposure to the elements.
Nice unsupported assertion. But FWIW, if and when such happened, it would be in direct contravention of the Third Geneva Convention (if it happened after the ratification of such).
Slapping? Good God! Just taking a prisoner often takes far more physical force than a slap. If the prisoner does not understand your language, you have to shove him to the ground, search him for weapons, tie him up if you have means to secure him and then prod or shove them to where you want them to go.
The Third Geneva Convention specifies what can be done WRT discipline and order. Without any specifics of the instance HWSNBN alludes to here, hard to tell if such is a violation, but in general terms, "slapping" is unwarranted (even if physical restraint and/or a "takedown" may be in fact justified). "Slapping" is simply gratuitous.
[James Norton column]: The US has (or had) a worldwide reputation for promoting human rights. That reputation was earned by its struggle - often against itself, as was the case during the fight against slavery, and the civil rights movement - to protect individuals against systems that would otherwise mistreat them.
Is this person actually impliedly comparing captured terrorists with abolitionists or civil rights demonstrators? I should stop reading right now. He has no concept of war.
HWSNBN should stop reading right now. It seems to annoy the pig and accomplishes nothing much else. He's incapable of comprehension. Norton's saying nothing of the sort, but such is lost on the clueless troll HWSNBN....
The author started out by moaning that the al Qaeda who killed themselves were not being treated like common criminals with access to our courts.
A misstatement of what Norton said. IOW, simply put, HWSNBN is flat-out lying. How unusual. How very unusual ... for the troll HWSNBN.
Now, he is citing George Washington condemning just that practice by the British, which BTW was perfectly proper since our troops were traitors. See Padilla.
HWSNBN, clueless as usual, misses the point: George Washington thought mistreatment of any combatants to be wrong. HWSNBN if of a different opinion, but I guess great minds may differ....
[James Norton again]: Hamilton stepped in personally to stop the man, and later reported proudly: "Incapable of imitating examples of barbarity and forgetting recent provocations, the soldiers spared every man who ceased to resist."
Strawman argument. When have we massacred al Qaeda prisoners?
This from someone who thinks (and has maintained on this blog) that they can be summarily executed.
[James Norton]: It can be argued, of course, that captured British soldiers are hardly equivalent to the type of men held at Guantánamo Bay. The soldiers fought in uniform; the detainees at Gitmo were terrorists, working undercover. Washington would have had them hanged. True enough...
[HWSNBN]: FINALLY, someone recognizes the difference between legal and illegal combatants!
[Norton again]: True enough - except that we don't actually know how many of them were terrorists working undercover. Most were detained on evidence too flimsy to hold up under trial, according to declassified documents from the Department of Defense and reporting in the staunchly nonpartisan National Journal.
The troll HWSNBN misses the point that Norton is implying a trial first. Not to mention, Norton couches the language here: "It can be argued...." Norton doesn't necessarily sign on to the argument, but this is too "obtuse" for the troll HWSNBN to pipck up on (to use the language of another well-known "Norton"....)
Cheers,
Abe Foxman, Revisionist Zionism.
ReplyDeleteOn December 4, 1948, the New York Times published a letter to the editor signed by over two dozen prominent Jews condemning Menachem Begin and his Herut party on the occasion of Begin's visit to New York City.
Comparing Revisionist Zionism streams to "Nazi and fascist parties", the letter, signed by individuals like Albert Einstein and the anti-Zionists Hannah Arendt and Sidney Hook. The letter began:
"Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents." (source: NY Times, December 4, 1948).
Conventional wisdom? Nothing is more unconventional than wisdom.
ReplyDeleteConvention is concentric whereas wisdom is eccentric.
Bart said... "Slapping? Good God! Just taking a prisoner often takes far more physical force than a slap. If the prisoner does not understand your language, you have to shove him to the ground, search him for weapons, tie him up if you have means to secure him and then prod or shove them to where you want them to go."
ReplyDeleteSo Bart, from your own words, do you see the difference here... Force used in taking a prisoner vs. force used on a detained prisoner. You aren't that obtuse, are you?
Are you just getting tired Bart? Your posts contain more and more of the stagnant right-wing echo chamber talking points wrapped in pasted text of others you disagree with. You seem to be fighting because you're on the other side, more than you believe in what you are fighting for. Really shows when your posts consist of creating strawman arguments and then a few lines down saying, "can you say strawman?" when referencing another poster.
bart,
ReplyDeletenotwithstanding the other fine points noted, i will add that to the extent your unsourced claim that, "Thousands of POWs have died in our custody from lack of food, shelter and exposure to the elements" is true, it also was an unwelcome and shameful manifestation that ran counter to the american ideal.
i know you find it hard to realize that elements in both our present andpast behavior can be disgraceful, but it is so.
however, it is probably without worth to attempt to dialogue with one who chuckles and boasts about POWS dying from exposure to the elements.
The blogger formerly known as "Ender" said:
ReplyDelete[Ka-Bar]: Jeebus. I can't have the same blogger moniker as that guy.
That's why I stick to "Arne". No one is likely to grab that unattractive moniker ... plus it's easier to remember in an alcohol-induced daze. ;-)
"Ender" is dead, long live Ka-Bar!
Cheers,
Ender was a perfect handle for someone that was always making an ass out of themselves.
ReplyDeleteFitting to refer to a "read end" as ender...
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBart said... "Slapping? Good God! Just taking a prisoner often takes far more physical force than a slap. If the prisoner does not understand your language, you have to shove him to the ground, search him for weapons, tie him up if you have means to secure him and then prod or shove them to where you want them to go."
So Bart, from your own words, do you see the difference here... Force used in taking a prisoner vs. force used on a detained prisoner. You aren't that obtuse, are you?
And do you have any idea under what circumstances this alleged "slapping" occurred, if it occurred at all?
I offered this comparison to to give yo a sense of proportion. Good heavens, the writer is alleging ghastly torture and the best he can come up with is a guard supposedly slapping a prisoner.
The Exalted said...
ReplyDeletebart, notwithstanding the other fine points noted, i will add that to the extent your unsourced claim that, "Thousands of POWs have died in our custody from lack of food, shelter and exposure to the elements" is true, it also was an unwelcome and shameful manifestation that ran counter to the american ideal. i know you find it hard to realize that elements in both our present andpast behavior can be disgraceful, but it is so.
The American treatment of prisoners, like the rest of the world's evolved over time. I don't get into judging past civilizations for following the standards of their day.
Read about the conditions under which prisoners were kept during the wars with the British, the Civil War on both sides, then the German prisoners who perished during WWII because we could neither feed not shelter them.
The author's citation to some golden age of lenient treatment of military prisoners during the time of the Founders is simply a crock. As the author himself finally admits, George Washington would have summarily shot the al Qaeda to whom we provide due process, three hots a day, religious accommodations and even basketball courts for recreation.
There was no more lenient past regime which would have given these illegal combatants even more consideration that we already do.
If you want to make a policy argument that we should given these prisoners greater considerations that the law requires, then make it straight out.
Don't rely on reporters weaving fairy tales about a false history.
other readers (including Markos) write to note that Kos endorsed him, so I guess Kos and I like the same guy, though I suspect we see different virtues in him.
ReplyDeleteI guess kos is tired of going 0-19 supporting lefties in elections and, like the Donkeys who recruited him, is backing a conservative Elephant turned conservative Donkey.
Allen will handily win in any case and the Donkey who recruited Webb will drop him like yesterday's news.
HWSNBN is a lying sack'o'sh*te:
ReplyDeleteGood heavens, the writer is alleging ghastly torture and the best he can come up with is a guard supposedly slapping a prisoner.
From the original quote:
"The American Civil Liberties Union has compiled thousands of documents relating to torture of prisoners in US custody, including FBI memos complaining about military abuses at Guantánamo Bay. Details include prisoners being left in straitjackets in intense sunlight with hoods over their heads, and 'military guards ... slapping prisoners, stripping them, pouring cold water over them and making them stand until they got hypothermia.'"
It was HWSNBN who dishonestly cherry-picked the "slapping" as the 'most egregious' violation.
Of course, if HWSNBN knew how to run a search engine, he could have found this and this and this and this and......... [anonanon]
He's angling for the maladministration press secretary's position, but no one's told him that "Kneepads" Tony's already got the job.
Cheers,
The Evil of Banality
ReplyDeleteby Anthony Alessandrini
www.dissidentvoice.org
June 14, 2006
There are moments that require us to stop everything and take stock of the time in which we are living. This is one such moment. Listen:
“They are smart, they are creative, they are committed,” Admiral Harris said. “They have no regard for life, neither ours nor their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of asymmetrical warfare waged against us.”
This is Rear Admiral Harry B. Harris, commander of the Guantanamo Bay prison. His words appeared, without comment, in the first news reports about three men, detained indefinitely and subjected to systematic torture at the prison, who committed suicide on Saturday by hanging themselves in their cells.
Take a moment to dwell on the admiral’s words. Look especially at the first sentence, at the adjectives used to describe the dead men: “smart, creative, committed.” There is a perverse compliment being paid by the torturer to the tortured.
This attitude is also implicit in the follow-up article printed by the New York Times the next day, with the headline: “Prisoners’ Ruse Is Suspected at Guantanamo.” This, we learn from the article, should be the focus of inquiry: not the circumstances that drove three men to their deaths, but the question of how, given the fact that one of the elements of their confinement was constant monitoring by their captors, these men could have managed their “ruse.”
The point of systematic torture, of course, is to force the tortured to acknowledge, every minute of every day, that his life is in the hands of his torturer. No wonder, then, that the prison’s commanders and their willing mouthpieces in the press are alarmed. In the most macabre and tragic sense, these are the first escapees from Guantanamo.
Of course these were acts of despair, no matter what the torturers may claim. Of course the many attempts by prisoners at Guantanamo to use their bodies -- all that is left to them -- to protest against their systematic and agonizing dehumanization have been acts of desperation. Many of their ongoing efforts -- for example, the hunger strikes that have been violently broken through force-feedings -- have been the tactics of resistance used by other political prisoners: Irish prisoners held by the British in Northern Ireland, South Africans in apartheid jails, Palestinians in Israeli prisons.
These are acts of desperation, but in their tragic way, they are also attempts to claim back some shred of humanity from the grasp of the torturers. And so even the capacity to feel despair has to be denied them by the torturers, at the very moment of their deaths. “I believe this was not an act of desperation," the admiral assures us, "but an act of asymmetrical warfare waged against us.”
Leave aside “asymmetrical” for the moment, although under different circumstances a sustained meditation on the abuse of language inherent in the use of this term would be in order. Go right to this phrase: “an act of warfare waged against us.”
For this is the lynchpin of it all. “They” are being held in Guantanamo, according to this version of the story, for having waged, or tried to wage, or plotted to wage, or thought about waging, war against “us” (thus the invention of the wholly unprecedented but vaguely legal-sounding term “enemy combatants”). The subsequent charge of "terrorism" is itself potent enough to preclude any further inquiry, and, more important, to eliminate any concern for the treatment of the human beings -- human no longer, since they are now of the species known as "terrorist" -- during their confinement. The dehumanization carried out through the physical acts of torture at Guantanamo (and, it should be added, at prisons subsidized and run by the U.S. government throughout the world) is thus both enabled and completed through this linguistic torture.
When the flesh-and-blood human beings being held captive assert their humanity through their bodies, whether through hunger strikes or through suicide attempts, the linguistic torturers have to work overtime. But they are able to do their work without much worry about systematic opposition in this country. The White House dutifully described the three men as “committed terrorists,” and in response, Democrats said nothing, since, as the Times reported, they are “concerned about appearing to be sympathizing with detainees who could turn out to have significant terrorist connections.”
Here we should pause again. Three men at Guantanamo were, in essence, tortured to death. Their names were Mani bin Shaman bin Turki al-Habardi, Yasser Talal Abdulah Yahya al-Zahrani, and Ali Abdullah Ahmedwho.
What is most appalling about the discourse surrounding their suicides is the banality of the language used to address their deaths. It is as though nothing out of the ordinary has happened. This is what should startle us out of our complacency: the thought that a situation in which three men were literally driven to their deaths by the inhumanity of their treatment is in fact all in a day's work for our government.
There are of course groups and individuals who have tried to break this sense of complacency and to place Guantanamo, and the U.S. government’s policies of detainment, extraordinary rendition, secret prisons, and systematic torture more generally, before the eyes of Americans. But the fact that these men's suicides can be reported as “ruses” and “acts of war” without provoking outrage reminds us of how much remains to be done.
One important part of this effort is to combat the specifically dehumanizing work being done by the word “terrorist.” It is not necessary to prove the innocence of those being held prisoner at Guantanamo in order to demand an end to their torture. Of course, a cursory glance at the insane methods used to capture those who are now detained there suggests that no legal case could be made against the vast majority of the prisoners.
But the fundamental insistence should be that it simply does not matter. Allowing the focus to be shifted to the question of innocence versus guilt, of good and evil, of terrorism and acts of war, avoids addressing the heart of the matter. Worse, it allows a shift into the banal language that allows for generalizations about “us” and “them,” the very language that underwrites the abuses of humanity carried out by this government through its terroristic “war on terror.”
The real focus must be on a place whose sole purpose is to torture people until the only recourse that remains available to them is to somehow bring about their own deaths. The focus must be on the fact that Guantanamo is not simply an anomaly, not just an embarrassing example of this government’s zeal after September 2001 whose closure will also close that distressing chapter. The focus must be on the larger set of processes set in motion by this government, of which Guantanamo is simply the most visible manifestation.
Appeals to the government to close down Guantanamo are not nearly enough right now. We have to do more to make known the full extent of the horror. Guantanamo Bay is not simply a place where men are dressed in orange jumpsuits and placed in cages. It is a place where humanity is being systematically destroyed. This is no metaphor. Perhaps it is time to see that the responsibility for closing down Guantanamo belongs, not to George W. Bush, but to us.
Listening to the admiral, to the most recent expression of the banality of evil flowing from his lips, only one conclusion can be drawn: the United States has absented itself from humanity. Until those living in this country can find a way to stop this government, the admiral’s phrase should be applied to us: “They have no regard for life.”
Anthony Alessandrini teaches English at Kingsborough Community College/CUNY in Brooklyn, NY, and is a member of the Action Wednesdays Against War collective in New York City. He can be reached at: tonyalessandrini@yahoo.com.
HWSNBN misses the ball completely:
ReplyDeleteRead about the conditions under which prisoners were kept during the wars with the British, the Civil War on both sides, then the German prisoners who perished during WWII because we could neither feed not shelter them.
The author's citation to some golden age of lenient treatment of military prisoners during the time of the Founders is simply a crock.
HWSNBN carefully (and dishonestly) "shifts the goalposts" here: The James Norton column was talking about abuse of prisoners, not bad conditions of confinement (which, as I pointed out above but which HWSNBN ignores, were treated in the post-WWII Third Geneva Convention). It is true that war is horrible, that conditions are often beyond one's control, and that exigencies exist. It is not true that any such exigencies can be used to excuse the intentional abuse of prisoners (as is adverted to in the Hamilton anecdote in Norton's article). As for Washington's actions, even there he was talking of putting in the soldiers (and wounded ones at that) with "common criminals", something specifically prohibited by the Geneva Conventions), and his response makes it clear that he was against any abusive treatment: "Not only your Officers, and Soldiers have been treated with a Tenderness due to Fellow Citizens, & Brethren; but even those execrable Parricides [traitors] whose Counsels & Aid have deluged their Country with Blood, have been protected from the Fury of a justly enraged People."
This all is lost on the clueless troll HWSNBN ... or is it? I begin to suspect some intentional "obtuseness".
Is there a limit to the continual mendacity that should be tolerated in supposedly "civil" discussion?
Cheers,
i don't see the problem here. i'm fine to let the right-wingers lie to each other day and night.
ReplyDeletethen harsh reality will come crashing down even harsher. hopefully this november for a start.
oh, and bart, you've got a little backwash on your pants. rove's been around again, i take it?
Another lie by HWSNBN:
ReplyDelete[Commenting on James Norton's column]:
As the author himself finally admits, George Washington would have summarily shot the al Qaeda to whom we provide due process, three hots a day, religious accommodations and even basketball courts for recreation.
Norton does not "admit" this. What he says is: "The soldiers fought in uniform; the detainees at Gitmo were terrorists, working undercover. Washington would have had them hanged."
Of course, there's no supporting evidence for even Norton's claim, and certainly not for HSWNBN's. True or not, hanging people doesn't preclude a trial or at least a hearing. HWSNBN makes the claim that Norton says they would be summarily shot, which is clearly false, and even his implicit claim that Washington would have "summarily shot" [or "hanged"] them is not supported.
I'd note also HWSNBN's implicit assumption here (a little bit of "circulus in demonstrandum"?) that the Guantanamo prisoners are all al Qaeda ... which is simply false. In fact, that's part of the problem....
Cheers,
More lies from the clueless one who "cuts'n'pastes" the current RNC "spin points" he's handed:
ReplyDeleteI guess kos is tired of going 0-19 supporting lefties in elections and, like the Donkeys who recruited him, is backing a conservative Elephant turned conservative Donkey.
The lie about Kos going "0-20" is one making the RW rounds. It's false, of course. Shows where HWSNBN gets his "facts".
Glenn, howzabout we just put up a link to Freeperville/WhirledNutzDaily for those that want to read the latest RW tripe (to laugh at or whatever), and then tell Secret Agent Bart, Criminal Prosecutor, to just take a hike? Would save bandwidth.....
Cheers,
"They are smart, they are creative, they are committed," Admiral Harris said. "They have no regard for life, neither ours nor their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of asymmetrical warfare waged against us."
ReplyDelete....
This attitude is also implicit in the follow-up article printed by the New York Times the next day, with the headline: "Prisoners' Ruse Is Suspected at Guantanamo."
Oh my gawd. "How dare they attack us like that"?
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." -- one of the most perceptive and farsighted people ever to wield a pen and easel, the late and dearly missed Walt Kelly.
RIP.
[From The Evil of Banality,
ReplyDeleteby Anthony Alessandrini]:
Of course these were acts of despair, no matter what the torturers may claim. Of course the many attempts by prisoners at Guantanamo to use their bodies -- all that is left to them -- to protest against their systematic and agonizing dehumanization have been acts of desperation.
From Stephen Kinzer's book "Overthrow", a must-read for everyone here, and a shouldda-read-it for everyone in the maladministration, page 148:
Not the Preferred Way to Commit Suicide
News agencies never sleep, so it was with no surprise that Malcolm Browne, the Associated Press correspondent in Saigon, was still at work when his office telephone rang late on the evening of June 10, 1963. The caller was Thich Duc Nghiep, a Buddhist monk Browne had come to know while covering the escalating conflict between Buddhists and the Catholic-dominated government of South Vietnam. He told Browne that anyone who appeared at the Xa Loi Pagoda the next morning would witness "an important event"....
You'll just have to read the rest yourselves, dear friends and correspondents. I wouldn't want to spoil it for you.
Kinzer ought to get a Pulitzer. And maybe, the Nobel Prize for Peace.
Sincerely,
Are these trolls watching you or GG? via Mojo, this posting suggests that the Rendon Group may be watching leftist blogs.
ReplyDeleteBart said:
ReplyDelete"The author's citation to some golden age of lenient treatment of military prisoners during the time of the Founders is simply a crock. As the author himself finally admits, George Washington would have summarily shot the al Qaeda to whom we provide due process, three hots a day, religious accommodations and even basketball courts for recreation."
Due process my ass. Just more ill conceived incompetence from this admin. Some of the detainees have been held at Guantanamo for over four years without any charges being filed against them for whatever it is they are supposed to have done. And then one of the commanders tell the press that the detainees can't challenge the charges against them because the charges are classified so they can't know what they are.
One individual that was cleared of any wrong doing at his military tribunal is still confined there none the less.
The fact is that many of the detainees did nothing other than be in the wrong place at the wrong time . (being where they could be captured by the Northern alliance and turned in for the Bush admin ill conceived $25,000 reward program)
Balanced Reporting
ReplyDeleteMojo gives good example of how the media--under the aegis of "balance"--creates controversey where none exists. ...
According to MoJo:
Pam Spaulding spots a great example of one of journalism's most annoying tics: the need to put fake "balance" into stories. The other day the Houston Chronicle ran a profile of Sgt. Jack Oliver, the first officer in the Houston Police Department to undergo a sex change while on active duty. Interesting stuff. But the reporter then feels compelled to gin up controversy where none exists and quotes some pastor or other who gets all squirmy at the thought of transsexuals: "That would raise issues of competency in the line of duty in my mind."
cynic librarian:
ReplyDeleteAre these trolls watching you or GG? via Mojo, this posting suggests that the Rendon Group may be watching leftist blogs.
Any idea how to get page views listed for "blogger.com" blogs? Anyone know?
Cheers,
>>the truth is, as is so often the case, the precise opposite of Instapundit's statements
ReplyDeleteBut it's not due to sloth and it's not a mistake. It's a very purposeful ploy. Repetition of a lie gives it credibility, and that's why they do it. They know it's a lie. They repeat the lie on purpose because so far it has furthered their aims.
That's why constant repetition of the debunking is so important. That's why clearly calling them lies is so important.
And we must do it over and over and over and over again.
Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeletecynic librarian:
Are these trolls watching you or GG? via Mojo, this posting suggests that the Rendon Group may be watching leftist blogs.
Any idea how to get page views listed for "blogger.com" blogs? Anyone know?
Cheers,
4:14 AM
Site meter account, I think. You can have site meter track your site whatever platform you use.
ka-bar said...
the cynic librarian said...
Are these trolls watching you or GG? via Mojo, this posting suggests that the Rendon Group may be watching leftist blogs.
I am not sure if this is related (haven't read it closely enough yet) but I just read something similar (if it isn't indeed the same thing).
Same thing. Amanda at Pandagon had a posy about it as well, yesterday. Linked to the same sites and posts.
bart... I guess kos is tired of going 0-19 supporting lefties in elections and, like the Donkeys who recruited him, is backing a conservative Elephant turned conservative Donkey.
ReplyDeleteThat's a lie. Obama and someone else, and now Webb. There are others after the June primary. Winogradn in CA. If Bart was sworn in and under oath, we'd never hear from him. If only...
It took the GOP and RNC 30 years and billions of dollars to make it to 1994. They have pissed it all away in 10 years. If it takes us ten years to get there, that will be slower than it should be and take longer than it should. And my guess is we will maintain the edge, and dominance, throughout most of this century, like we did the last century. You are old news, Bart. Bad old news at that.
ReplyDeleteWe are finally starting to rehabilitate the word "liberal", which the Coulters and Limbaughs have twisted to mean "unpatriotic", "extremist", "unhinged".
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's time to go to work on the phrase "hard left". I grew up in a time of Abbie Hoffman, Black Panthers and the Weather Underground. Maybe if we saw some real "hard left" we wouldn't have to defend Al Gore and John Murtha as being on the "extreme Left".
DavidByron:
ReplyDeletearne is slagging off my man Osama again, calling him a mirror image of bart of all people. but he knows that isn't the truth:
Ummm, watch the attributions, and try not to type angry. In fact, do take a chill pill. You'll avoid hyperbole, exaggeration, mis-statements, and having to make apologies.
Just a helpful suggestion.
Cheers,
carolyn kay:
ReplyDeleteBut it's not due to sloth and it's not a mistake. It's a very purposeful ploy. Repetition of a lie gives it credibility, and that's why they do it. They know it's a lie. They repeat the lie on purpose because so far it has furthered their aims.
That's why constant repetition of the debunking is so important. That's why clearly calling them lies is so important.
My cross to bear. Debunking even Bart's tripe for the 423rd time is getting tiresome.
Cheers,
He retracted the statement, yes, that's true. But doesn't that illustrate Glenn's post even more. Glenn was also saying that this "conventional wisdom" is the problem. They think something, they post it. 5 minutes of research, and its really easy on the internet, would have solved the problem. But he's so convinced of his conventional wisdom that he can't fact check it.
ReplyDeleteInstapundit will gladly spend days researching to disprove something said by a democrat, but he's unconcerned about checking what he wrote. But, I guess if he checked the veracity of his pieces he might either have nothing to post, or post what he knows to be wrong. So I guess his is willingly ignorant.
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteSite meter account, I think. You can have site meter track your site whatever platform you use.
Umm, don't see anything in a cursory look there that seems on-point.
I've also seen freeware/OSS scripts you can cut and paste into your own page that keeps page hit counts ("Sitemeter" stuff), but that requires that you have ability to save stuff on the server disk, and not sure Blogger lets you do that.
But logs are a bit more complicated yet and need even more disk space.
Anyone have any more ideas?
I know people do get usage logs; they use them to grab IPs for banning trolls/malware/spam.... I've set up Apache servers and know how they can record such, but that requires that you have access to the webserver SW setup itself (or to the log directories, if it's already enabled)
*sheesh* ... and I'm the telecomm engineer; shame on me ... give me a Toplayer box and I'd have it though; or maybe I should just send a FOIA request to the NSA. ;-)
Cheers,
pres1385:
ReplyDeleteBack to the C-Span, these callers seemed quite sincere and genuinely outraged....
Oh, I dunno. You get more than your share of folks on C-SPAN (as on the talk shows) where they start out, "As a life-long Democrat... or "I used to be a Democrat..." and you know they're lying through their teeth as soon as they launch into their diatribe. The RW Mighty Wurlitzer is pretty well greased (see, e.g., HWSNBN "spinning" the "Kos is 0-20!" crapola above, and shooter242 with his oft-repeated RNC "spin-points", the Martinez memo from the Schiao case, and the latest RNC TPM on Iraq ... and that's not even getting started).
Some is outright bought and paid for, some is organised, and some is just the detritus that shakes of the RNC cart as it passes and floats its way into the conversations. But make no mistake; the terms and topics of the discussion, as well as the "facts" to present, are being deliberately set. Keep your eyes open.
Cheers,
nittacci:
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's time to go to work on the phrase "hard left". I grew up in a time of Abbie Hoffman, Black Panthers and the Weather Underground.
Yeah, there's tons of stuff from back then that I can't remember either. ;-) Nice to see another ol' fart around.
Maybe if we saw some real "hard left" we wouldn't have to defend Al Gore and John Murtha as being on the "extreme Left".
Ain't gonna work that way. They'd point to the "hard left" people and say: "See! You guys really are extreme. See, they're in your party!" Then they'd drag up -- or Photo-Shop up if necessary (e.g., the Kerry-Fonda fake) -- every single picture they could to tie you to the "extremists". It's perception, not reality, for these folks, and they have professional ad men (hit men?) working over-time on this stuff.
Cheers,
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteBut, I guess if he [InstaHack] checked the veracity of his pieces he might either have nothing to post,...
Hey! You unfairly malign the man. He worked five hours spell-checking that "Heh. Indeed." the other day. Give him a break, mon.
Cheers,
This shows why sites like Instapundit don't have comments, and will never form part of the ongoing evolution of information dissemination; they are called on their own horseshit so many times that to encourage people to call them on it on their own site would just lead to irrelevance.
ReplyDeleteIt's always struck me that comparing instapundit to DKos or Eschaton or similar is a false analogy; a better one would be Ace of Spades, or Little Green Footballs, and we all know what depths those sites 'communities' are all too eager to dredge.
arne responding to anon: anonymous: Site meter account, I think. You can have site meter track your site whatever platform you use.
ReplyDeleteUmm, don't see anything in a cursory look there that seems on-point.
arne, I still think that sitemeter fits your bill. Go through the whole process and once you set it up, click Statistics. Once there, you have to click the number to the left of each logged vistior. Then you see who visits your site, along with their IP address, ISP, location, browser type, entry and exit pages, etc.
I prefer to call Reynolds
ReplyDelete"Isntapundit".
cynic librarian:
ReplyDeletearne, I still think that sitemeter fits your bill. Go through the whole process and once you set it up, click Statistics. Once there, you have to click the number to the left of each logged vistior. Then you see who visits your site, along with their IP address, ISP, location, browser type, entry and exit pages, etc.
OK. Apologies; I guess "cursory looks" may have been unsuitable and uncharitable. I'll look more closely. Thanks. FWIW, I suspect site logs for my blog won't be too disk-intensive. ;-)
Thanks for your help. :-)
Cheers,
And if supporting gay rights makes you a left-liberal, then what am I?
ReplyDeleteThe eternal weasel of the glibertarian Reynolds. (Shared, I remember, by the copious Den Beste.)
Support gay rights? Well, that's nice. Still means you're a mendacious fucktard for 473 other reasons, including that particular strawman.
On C-SPAN, everyone used to be a Democrat. It's all freepers lying through their teeth. No sane person "used to be a Democrat".
ReplyDelete*sheesh* ... and I'm the telecomm engineer; shame on me ... give me a Toplayer box and I'd have it though; or maybe I should just send a FOIA request to the NSA. ;-)
You are strange! People in your industry are usually wingnuts. Don't like Kool-aid?
Site Meter is the best way for Glenn to track that stuff, I think. He should ask other bloggers the next time he goes to a "blogger ethics panel".
Not gonna say a word about the "hard left" except to say that you may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. Which means they will hang you no matter what you do, so at least they can't call you a pacifist wimp if... you fill in the blank.
David Byron...Well thanks for the advice. In return I'll suggest you don't post while drunk. Geez, talk about picky picky picky - you both have handles that begin with an 'a'.
ReplyDeleteYou only wish your posts sober were as good as Arne's tipsy posts.
David Byron drinks the kool-aid. He should stick to beer, or a nice French Colombard.
ReplyDeleteHG:
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link to the REPORT ON GUANTANAMO DETAINEES. Interesting analysis.
http://law.shu.edu/news/guantanamo_report_final_2_08_06.pdf
The attorneys who drafted this brief admitted upfront that they have appointed themselves to represent two of the detainees, so this is meant to be a persuasive argument on behalf of their clients and not an objective analysis. Even so, they kept a measured approach through out and used the limited evidence they possessed to its best effect.
Also, it should be noted that this is only an analysis of the public military summaries of each detainee's hearing known as Combatant Status Review Board Letters. No evidence is produced by these letters and the letters themselves only describe the evidence in the vaguest terms.
These letters are not produced with the report and are instead located at the Seton Hall Law School Library. However, given the lack of polemics in the report, I will assume that the report is accurately reporting the contents of these letters.
I just want to make a few points on what limited information this report does contain:
The report provides the definition we are using for enemy combatants on page 7 and describes the evolution of that definition in Footnote 10. A enemy combatant is:
[A]n individual who was part of or supporting the Taliban or al Qaeda forces, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners. This includes any
person who committed a belligerent act or has directly supported hostilities in aid of enemy forces.
89% of detainees are identified as al Qaeda, Taliban or both.
There is a strange subcategory identifying 7% of the detainees as al Qaeda OR Taliban. The defense attorneys conclude that because we cannot say for sure to which organization they belonged that they must not belong to either organization. A non sequitor to say the least.
The defense attorneys also conclude that al Qaeda or Taliban draftees should not be detained because they may have been drafted unwillingly. The vast majority of the military prisoners we captured over the years were draftees. Totalitarian regimes do not have volunteer militaries. However, we did not release draftees so they could be drafted all over again and fight us all over again.
The attorneys also take exception to detainees who are designated as enemy combatants due to their association with the enemy. Let's take a look at the example given:
The detainee is associated with forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States and its coalition partners:
1) The detainee voluntarily traveled from Saudi Arabia to Afghanistan in November 2001.
2) The detainee traveled and shared hotel rooms with an Afghani.
3) The Afghani the detainee traveled with is a member of the Taliban Government.
4) The detainee was captured on 10 December 2001 on the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Let's have a pop quiz. The first three responses were all given by detainees.
Based on this evidence, this Saudi detainee is most likely:
a) On vacation in scenic Afghanistan.
b) Looking for work in Afghanistan.
c) Giving away Qurans.
d) al Qaeda.
C'mon people, the only Arabs in Afghanistan were al Qaeda.
No one vacationed in Taliban run Afghanistan.
Saudis from a country importing labor do not go to Afghanistan for work.
Afghanistan has no shortage of Qurans.
Finally, the lawyers get cute by noting that the military's list of groups allied with al Qaeda and the Taliban is more extensive than that of Homeland Security's no entry list and then imply that terrorists not on the HS list should be released. Sounds more like yet another lapse by HS.
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteYou are strange! People in your industry are usually wingnuts. Don't like Kool-aid?
Why thank you ... I guess. ;-)
Yes, a lot of telecomm folks come from a military BG. Motorcyles (Harleys in particular) seem to be popular too, although that's neither here nor there; I may get a Harley at some point -- I have the "looks" for it.
I eschew Kool-Aid, plus, I like to exercise more than just my legs. I don't wear my more -- ummm, "pointed" -- T-shirts to work sites.
Cheers,
wow, bart read the report and decided that all Guantanamo prisoners are al Qaeda anyway, justifying it with a ridiculous pseudo-arguement.
ReplyDeleteA most unforseen turn of events.
This near-logic (in the sense of near-beer) resembles and has the form of an argument, but the steps are not connected and the variables involved are pulled out of the air.
I'm reminded of the cargo cultists who thought that mocking up an airplane out of debris would bring riches to their island.
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteYou only wish your posts sober were as good as Arne's tipsy posts.
I'll grant that sometimes I've had a few beers ... but the major explanation is that I'm a piss-poor typist ... and usually don't preview (preview is pretty tedious with Blogger response times nowadays).
Cheers,
HWSNBN "spins":
ReplyDeleteThere is a strange subcategory identifying 7% of the detainees as al Qaeda OR Taliban. The defense attorneys conclude that because we cannot say for sure to which organization they belonged that they must not belong to either organization. A non sequitor to say the least.
I noted that too. I think what they're getting at is that if there isn't any evidence to show which organisation they belonged to, there's really not any substantial evidence to show they belonged to either of them. It a "logic" kind of thingy. Which may be what eludes HWSNBN.
Cheers,
HWSNBN puts words in the mouths of others:
ReplyDeleteThe defense attorneys also conclude that al Qaeda or Taliban draftees should not be detained because they may have been drafted unwillingly.
They said no such thing.
Cheers,
OK. When will pundits, of the Insta, Quick or Slow-Cook varieties get a simple concept about us pink-lefty-liberals in left-blogosphere:
ReplyDeleteNot every candidate we go for is a lefty and not every candidate we oppose is a moderate. Even if most of us are Moonbats, we care more about good politics and good policy than ideological purity. Thus many in left-blogosphere loooove Harry Reid even though he is ideologically far to the right of most of us. If it seems that it is only moderates we label as "wankers" maybe it's because wankers are attracted to a certain "moderate" position, not because we view all moderates as wankers.
But the Instapundits of the world, the Pumpkinheads and Tweety-Birds -- they do their darndest to stick to the "two sides -- and the left blogosphere is supporting the leftwingnuts" script -- consider the rush to produce a horserace "if godforbid- thoseoutoftouchdemocrats- retakethehouse- howwilltheyselfdestructthistime": the punditocracy and silly MSM is already trying to make a horserace between Hoyer (is this the guy?) and Murtha. Since Murtha is supported by many on the left-blogosphere, he is automatically the looney-liberal candidate in spite of the fact that, except for a few, admittedly key, votes, he is more conservative than Hoyer (a fact which will be rediscovered if Murtha wins the horse-race and turns out to be "mainstream": then the media bigwigs will post-facto spin a Murtha victory as the victory of a conservative, and hence more "mainstream" (TM) candidate over the liberal blognuts). What makes Murtha an official "moonbat" is his willingness to describe the paucity of clothing warn by the emperor in regards to the Iraq war, a few key votes and, due to the previous two reasons, his support by the left-blogosphere.
What Instacracker is doing is merely following the lead of the media big-wigs -- who remain purposefully ignorant of liberalism: what tools they are.
HWSNBN shows his knowledge of legal theory:
ReplyDeleteC'mon people, the only Arabs in Afghanistan were al Qaeda.
C.L. Dodgson had this covered over a century ago:
"No, no!" said the Queen. "Sentence first -— verdict afterwards."
Cheers,
DavidByron:
ReplyDeleteDon't you mean the posts where he's off his meds? Now they're really poutstanding.
Wow! A fine "portmanteau"! Was that intentional?
Cheers,
"Reynold's, an ostensible libertarian who at least used to read Reason"
ReplyDeleteYes, it's interesting how Reynolds hoists the libertarian flag whenever he finds it convenient. But it's an odd sort of libertarian who heartily endorses detention without trial, torture, preemptive invasion, the unlimited expansion of executive powers, domestic spying, and the erosion of the seperation of church and state.
Now, he is citing George Washington condemning just that practice by the British, which BTW was perfectly proper since our troops were traitors. See Padilla.
ReplyDeleteIs HWSNBN admitting he would have been against the American Revolution? Is he secretely or not so-secretely anti-American, i.e. in the sense that the right calling the left anti-American is often projection more than anything else?
Or is this just a Samuel Johnson-esque, "how would we know Christianity was the true faith if the early Christians weren't persecuted so we'd know that Christianity was something worth dying for?", argument?
What I find interesting about Glenn Reynolds and Instapundit is that he originally was perceived as a libertarian. Since that time, he has become a walking talking-point for the Bush Regime.
ReplyDeleteRe: The hard left. I think it's high time we on the left take advantage of the second amendment, buy lots of guns, stockpile ammunition and form "well regulated militias" and train for armed conflict against all threats, foreign and domestic or even civil (and uncivil) war.
ReplyDeleteRepublican Congressman Henry Hyde blames John Kerry for September 11
I'm watching it live. There is no other interpretation than admitted-adulterer Henry Hyde is blaming John Kerry for the predicament America is in today with regards to the war on terror.
3,000 Americans "incinerated," per Henry Hyde. (Isn't it nice that 3,000 Americans lost their lives in order for Henry Hyde to use their dead corpses for political gain.) And apparently it's all John Kerry's fault because, according to Henry Hyde, John Kerry hates defending America. He hated defending America in the mid-90s, and, well, look where we are today.
These people really are pigs. And it's even sadder that the Republicans have so little to offer America that their only new idea for winning the Iraq war is to bash John Kerry.
Our troops deserve better than an incompetent commander in chief and a Republican congress that has no more ideas.
You will be hung for a sheep as a lamb by these "un-Americans". That's what I call them now and there is finally a need for a HUAC and a Senator McCarthy. There are more un-Americans in government now than there ever were commies or KGB moles and the threat is far greater and more real. There is a real clear and present danger. My guess is that kind of mobilization and organization will make them piss their pants.
People like Kerry hated defending America in the 90s?
ReplyDeleteTalk about projection: although, I am afraid the whole history of Clinton being rather tough on terrorist and other threats while the Republicans were trying to gut the military (to make it run "smarter" -- a la corporate downsizing, I reckon) and were arguing that Clinton was merely "wagging the dog" will go down the memory hole if it hasn't already.
Cue Santayana and apply to this whole myth of "Republican toughness" (since the days of the bumbling Dulles brothers) and how we are in the pickle we're in.
If Reason's Ronald Bailey hasn't voted Democrat since 1972, does that mean he didn't vote for Kerry in 2004? If so, then did he think Republican government was doing fine up until then, and he could safely throw his vote away on the libertarian candidate? When did he decide that voting Democrat was the patriotic thing to do?
ReplyDeleteI've personally witnessed many people who I would consider libertarian start to look towards the Democrats. I'm curious when this trend began--when they suddenly realized, "Republicans are bad for the Republic, we need to get them out of government ASAP." Was it Katrina? SS privatization? Iraqi civil war? I thought libertarians were all about limited government, but now they seem to be more perturbed by failure of government action.
"And yet those unfortunate souls who trust Instapundit's "analysis" and believe what he says are walking around today laboring under the standard fantasy that Webb's victory was a repudiation of the "the Howard Dean-Kos-fringe" even though that "fringe" supported Webb."
ReplyDeleteThose unfortunate souls labor under bigger fantasies than this, methinks.
The first use of the term "libertarian" was by an anarchist-communist in the 19th century. The American Libertarian party is an embarassment to real Libertarians and an aberration, but it is hardly monolithic. Many "American Libertarians" are finally realizing, as Churchill observed, that liberal Democrats are by far the worst political party and ideology when it comes to protecting individual and economic liberties, limited and unintrusive government and useless and wasteful pork, graft and corruption, except for the obvious exception of every other form of political party and ideology.
ReplyDeleteWhat I find interesting about Glenn Reynolds and Instapundit is that he originally was perceived as a libertarian. Since that time, he has become a walking talking-point for the Bush Regime.
ReplyDeleteFirst time poster here.
He's just taking his cue from Neal Boortz, a "libertarian" who has done nothing but apologize for Bush.
There is a strange subcategory identifying 7% of the detainees as al Qaeda OR Taliban. The defense attorneys conclude that because we cannot say for sure to which organization they belonged that they must not belong to either organization. A non sequitor to say the least.
ReplyDeleteYou are such a pathetic liar, Bart. The attorneys never used the word "must" or anything equivalent to it, nor did they reach a conclusion from the premise that "we cannot say for sure to which organization they belonged" -- phrasing that implicitly assumes the very thing in contention, that they belonged to either organization. Rather, what they said is that, if after four years the government has failed determine that the detainee is a member of Al Qaeda, then it is reasonable (check the meaning of that word in the dictionary, since you seem not to know it) to conclude that the detainee is not a member of Al Qaeda ... and, if after four years the government has failed to determine that the detainee is a member of the Taliban, then it is reasonable to conclude that the detainee is not a member of the Taliban. It's a simple application of De Morgan's Law, and thus sequitur as a matter of a basic theorem of propositional logic.
But that sort of casual disregard of the rules of rhetoric and logic is nothing compared to this assault on the principles of human civilization:
The defense attorneys also conclude that al Qaeda or Taliban draftees should not be detained because they may have been drafted unwillingly. The vast majority of the military prisoners we captured over the years were draftees. Totalitarian regimes do not have volunteer militaries. However, we did not release draftees so they could be drafted all over again and fight us all over again.
By that reasoning, we should indefinitely detain (which, as a matter of fact, is a euphemism for abuse and torture) the entire eligible male population of every totalitarian nation ... all in the name of freedom, of course.
Christ, I forgot the tinfoil hat. Can I still get in?
ReplyDeleteUm, I don't see it. I mean, he does show that his initial post was what you said, but it was updated right after ... when Kos emailed him putting the record straight. So, why haven't you updated YOUR post?
ReplyDelete> he updated his post, an update of which I was unaware until much later due to the fact that ... and he provided no link to my post when updating his.
ReplyDeleteProviding links wouldn't make you aware of anything. Bad writing or fundamental misunderstanding of the internet? Either way, it's a credibility indicator.
Well good gosh! Insty made a mistake and corrected it. But apparently, the fact that he did not admit supreme defeat and give up blogging forever dismays some of you. 144 coments, and an "update" that plugs a book tour..hmm. Sounds like someone is pleased as punch that he got recognized by an important blogger. The correct term is "instalaunch". Next time you might credit him for the traffic. Thats all I have gents. Everyone have a great day, and by all means, continue to shout from the rooftops "I AM IMPORTANT DAMNIT, AND PEOPLE LIKE ME, EVEN VOTERS!" See you in November.
ReplyDeleteYour friend,
George
Durham4@comcast.net
PS. I only visit dishonest sites like this once. So no need to reply to hurt my feelings. Unless, of course, you just enjoying hearing yourselves shout "I AM IMPORTANT...etc."
Providing links wouldn't make you aware of anything.
ReplyDeleteAfriad you're the one who has no idea what you're talking about. If Instahack had linked to GG's post when replying, he would have seen the reply either by traffic from Site Meter or technorati or other ways and he would have know about the update. That's blogger 101