(updated below - by Glenn)
By Anonymous Liberal - On Wednesday afternoon, Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum--along with Michigan Congressman Peter Hoekstra--held a press conference where they breathlessly announced that WMD had in fact been found in Iraq. Santorum's office billed this as a "major announcement." The press release quotes Santorum as saying: "This is critically important information that the world community needs to know." At the press conference, Santorum said:
This is an incredibly -- in my mind -- significant
finding. The idea that, as my colleagues have
repeatedly said in this debate on the other side of
the aisle, that there are no weapons of mass
destruction, is in fact false.
We have found over 500 weapons of mass
destruction. And in fact have found that there are
additional weapons of mass -- chemical weapons,
still in the country, that need to be recovered.
So what exactly was found? According to the document Santorum cites:
Since 2003 Coalition forces have recovered
approximately 500 weapons munitions which
contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent.
Since 2003? Degraded? These hardly seem like the long lost, mythical WMD. And if they are, why have several independent commissions and the White House itself subsequently acknowledged that there were no WMD?
If you're guessing that the answer to this riddle is that Santorum is a clown, you're right. According to Dafna Linzer of the Washington Post (page A10):
The lawmakers [Santorum and Hoekstra] pointed
to an unclassified summary from a report by the
National Ground Intelligence Center regarding
500 chemical munitions shells that had been
buried near the Iranian border, and then long
forgotten, by Iraqi troops during their eight-year
war with Iran, which ended in 1988.
The U.S. military announced in 2004 in Iraq that
several crates of the old shells had been uncovered
and that they contained a blister agent that was no
longer active. Neither the military nor the White
House nor the CIA considered the shells to be
evidence of what was alleged by the Bush
administration to be a current Iraqi program to
make chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.
Last night, intelligence officials reaffirmed that the
shells were old and were not the suspected
weapons of mass destruction sought in Iraq after
the 2003 invasion.
Of course, that didn't stop Santorum and Hoekstra from pretending like this was earth-shattering news and thereby intentionally misinforming a lot of people. Santorum went on Hannity & Colmes last night to hype the story. Various right wing pundits and blogs quickly picked up the story and ran with it (though, to be fair, some of the more intelligent ones saw right through the stunt). Sadly, even my local news picked up on the story, reporting in somewhat confused fashion that weapons of mass destruction had at long last been discovered in Iraq. Sigh.
This is how GOP political propaganda works. You hype a completely trivial fact in an entirely misleading way in order to make a point that is the opposite of the truth. The claim is then repeated by the unscrupulous and the confused, and a significant percentage of the public ends up hearing it. The next day the claim is debunked in a story on page A10 of the paper, but by then the damage has already been done. Wash, rinse, repeat.
UPDATE (by Glenn): Even the Defense Department is so embarrassed by Santorum's claims that they have repudiated them, and the DoD isn't exactly known for excessive caution when it comes to making claims designed to bolster the administration's pro-war case. But A.L. is absolutely right that despite the self-evident absurdity of Santorum's claims, the Powerlines and Instapundits of the world will spend the next six months insisting that we really, really did find WMDs in Iraq. They've already begun, although even Powerline acknowledges:
. . . . but what they're talking about is old munitions left over from, presumably, before the first Gulf War. This doesn't appear to constitute evidence that Saddam's regime had continued to manufacture chemical weapons in more recent years.
And one last point: It seems that Santorum and Hoekstra took it upon themselves to disclose this information because the administration kept it classified and did not want it disclosed. Santorum revealed that other parts of the memo, which are classified, references other chemical munitions. Shouldn't a Justice Department investigation be opened immediately to determine whether Santorum should be criminally prosecuted for violations of the Espionage Act? Maybe he can share a cell with Jim Risen and Dana Priest.
UPDATE II (by Glenn): Fox News has a screaming headline which still reads: "Report: Hundreds of WMDs Found in Iraq," even though the article itself, buried deep down, contains these paragraphs:
Offering the official administration response to FOX News, a senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.
"This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."
Pete Hoekstra, who breathlessly touted this "discovery," was asked why he thought the administration hadn't talked about these developments and this is what he said:
Asked why the Bush administration, if it had known about the information since April or earlier, didn't advertise it, Hoekstra conjectured that the president has been forward-looking and concentrating on the development of a secure government in Iraq.
So, according to Congressman Hoekstra, the administration found compelling evidence that shows that Iraq had WMDs after all and that everything the administration said was true. But the President didn't have time to talk about it, because he's focused on the future and not the past, and is too busy trying to stabilize the Iraqi Government. That is really what he said.
That is the funniest thing I've read since . . . yesterday, when I learned from The Weekly Standard that the reason George Bush did not attack Zarqawi in 2002 when he knew his location is because he was concerned about what The New York Times Editorial Board, international law professors, and Jacques Chirac would think. Each time you think you've scraped the bottom of the integrity and truth barrel, you wake up another day and find that there is still more space in which we can all descend.
Yeah, the jerk qualifies it with.."in my mind". To my mind that disqualifies it. If Santorum had a brain he'd know not to draw attention to past deceits.
ReplyDeleteThere goes the post I was going to write on this.
ReplyDeleteI can understand why Senator Santorum would want to engage in such blatant fabrication given his perilous election year battle, but why would Representative Hoekstra want to participate in this nonsense?
ReplyDeleteSantorum reminds me of the kid who's parents replace his dead goldfish in the middle of the night and everyone in the family smiles at him the next day, thinking how sad it is that he's the only one who believes it's the same fish.
ReplyDeleteThis is an election year stunt. From what I've read Santorum is in real trouble in his re-election bid. To paraphrase Cheney: It appears that Santorum is in his last throes.
ReplyDeleteAnd ya gotta know if there had been anything to it that George would've hyped it to high heaven when his justification for war was originally being questioned.
typically, with the case of the far right, their misleading claims have done more damage as intended, than any subsequent revelations (which tend to receive a fraction of the press) that they were misleading in the first place does to the original misleaders. (on the other hand, when it comes to democrats, this is often reversed, because of the great republican spin machine -- so imagine how effective they are when they actually catch the democrats in a mistake -- and the propensity of the media with respect to democrats.)
ReplyDeletesometimes things can be boiled down to their simplest elements. this is one of those things.
if this above trend were not true, the far right, instead of dominating the national debate, would be recognized as just that, i.e., "the far right," -- and close to the bottom of the bell curve instead of being represented by a large portion of our current Congress, the current White House, and now three and very likely 4 of the current Supreme Court Justices.
the reason is also simple: this is their motus operandi. to spin, distort, find things with which to attack democrats, liberals, moderates, and anybody else they want to lable as "left wing," the media, mislead by rhetoric that appeals to our worst emotions and biases...manufacture facts or simply blatantly mislead..
when "mistakes" such as these are effectively turned around on the far right wing, they will cease to have the almost national debate defining (shifting) effect that they have, and will more aptly serve to define the far right wing. (which will then in turn engage this tactic less often or egregiously, and thus manipulate less, but if they don't it will harm more than help)
therefore, what needs to be done, in THIS and EVERY instance, is turn the misleading statement, into a bigger story, than the impact of the statement itself.
this is not done, because democrats often assume facts speak for themselves. but to most of America, they don't, because most of America hears competing claims, or what it "wants to hear," constant rhetoric, and because the initial impact of the story tends to be far more potent, and often spun more significantly in the news (which is another reason why the "manipulation" itself has to become the story. then the fact that santorum, for example, tried to manipulate becomes the lead potent story).
this manufactured claim to try and manipulate or mislead the public, by taking what were long recognized stockpiles of old, no longer viable gas agents, and try to sell it to the public that this is what seeking to remove WMD via active military engagement with Iraq was all about, needs to be constantly blogged and commented on outside of predominantly liberal or democratic sites, emailed, and telephoned to the media, over and over and over and over and over, until the story that Rick Santorum either doesn't understand what the Iraq and WMD question was all about, or was purposefully trying to manipulate the public, becomes a BIGGER story than the gosh awful story that Iraq had some old sarin/mustard gas stockpiles from before the gulf war well over a decade ago.
by the way anonymous liberal. this not only negates the "wash, repeat, rinse" cycle that has led to the political domination of America this millenium, it turns it into a weapon against them.
So little ricky is really nuts -- are we gonna continue to hammer him and the lapdog poodle republicans that have consistently enabled the crimes of this administration?
ReplyDeleteToday, Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA) and Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-MI) held a press conference and announced “we have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.” Santorum and Hoekstra are hyping a document that describes degraded, pre-1991 munitions that were already acknowledged by the White House’s Iraq Survey Group and dismissed.
Defense Department Disavows Santorum’s WMD Claims
Fox News’ Jim Angle contacted the Defense Department who quickly disavowed Santorum and Hoekstra’s claims. A Defense Department official told Angle flatly that the munitions hyped by Santorum and Hoekstra are “not the WMD’s for which this country went to war.”
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/06/21/dod-disavows-santorum/
==================================
Personally, I think that little ricky should go back to the "man-on-dog" style attacks.
Do you think Santorum and Hoekstra did this on their own initiative? At a time when the White House is trying to get GOP candidates to run on a platform of "Let's stay in Iraq till everybody dies?"
ReplyDeleteDoubtful. They're messenger boys, just like What'shername from Ohio calling Murtha a coward.
You guys missed Bart getting toasted over this last night when he 'broke' the story two threads down.
ReplyDeleteReally, is it me or are the water-carriers for this Administration getting a wee bit desperate for 'good' news?
Really, is it me or are the water-carriers for this Administration getting a wee bit desperate for 'good' news?
ReplyDeleteThe whole world, and most of the country has seen the pernicious little dwarves behind the curtain, now that the smoke has all cleared away and all the mirrors have cracked. Expect very bad luck for the GOP for at least the next seven election years. They are desperate for more than good news, they are desperate for a campaign policy that will work. That old joke ain't funny anymore. KKKarl will get blamed for it and then he's history.
I happened to be passing through the channels last night and noticed that Hannity & Colmes were discussing this (I didn't see Santorum). Sean Hannity was going on and on about how this vindicates George W. Bush and he asked when the Democrats were publicly going to apologize to the President. I turned to the other news channels, figuring this would be a breaking news story, and it was business as usual. As I turned back to Fox, Allan Colmes said that this was nothing new and that Fox News reporter Jim Angle had contacted the DoD and there was nothing startling or revelatory about it. As the show closed, Hannity was still chirping about how President Bush was right all along anhd that our purpose for going to war was now verified. Actually, it's quite sad that he, and the others, are so desperate that they would resort to this. They want so desperately to believe in Bush and all that he stands for that they have become delusional.
ReplyDeleteActually, it's quite sad that he, and the others, are so desperate that they would resort to this. They want so desperately to believe in Bush and all that he stands for that they have become delusional.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this entirely, but I think it's more that people like Hannity need a sense of personal vindication rather than seeing Bush himself vindicated. Their sense of self-esteem and purpose were derived from their participation in the Glorious Bush Movement and the Epic War of Civilizations. They were riding so high for a couple of years -- feeling so strong and purposeful as a result of their safe and vicarious warrior dances -- and then it all collapsed -- somewhat suddenly and completely -- in failure, disgrace, deceit and disaster.
It is not surprising that they are desperate to be vindicated and to rejuvinate their movement. Nobody likes to stand revealed as wallowing in error and deceit, or watch your Leader be weakened and then disgraced, or have your source for strength amd power evaporate into nothing.
Of course they are desperate to revive that glorious mythology. They need it. And there are few limits on what they're willing to do in order to acheive that, as yesterday's genuinely sad absurdity illustrates ("WE FOUND WMDs IN IRAQ!!!!").
That is the funniest thing I've read since . . . yesterday, when I learned from The Weekly Standard that the reason George Bush did not attack Zarqawi in 2002 when he knew his location is because he was concerned about what The New York Times Editorial Board, international law professors, and Jacques Chirac would think.
ReplyDeleteYes, Glenn. This must be Rove's new talking point for the VRWC. I heard O'Reilly spouting the same nonsense two night's ago on Da Factor.
Big Bill was raging that Bush is pussyfooting around with the Iraqi insurgency by not ordering our troops to shoot every man, woman and child on sight. In the next breath, he excused the administration for said pussyfooting because, as he put it, Bush is intimidated by the New York Times and the Boston Globe.
They're not even trying to imply anymore that the media are to blame. They're just saying it outright.
anonymous liberal said:
ReplyDeleteThis is how GOP political propaganda works. You hype a completely trivial fact in an entirely misleading way in order to make a point that is the opposite of the truth. The claim is then repeated by the unscrupulous and the confused, and a significant percentage of the public ends up hearing it. The next day the claim is debunked in a story on page A10 of the paper, but by then the damage has already been done. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Kind of like Bart's modus operandi here. Not to mention Shooter's and Da Dawg's ... though they tend to be farther on down the coprophagic food chain.
Cheers,
In addition to AL and Glenn's remarks and to refresh your memory (in case you forgot) you might wish to see the 10 reasons to believe there were (are) no WMDs in Iraq posted by Juan Cole:
ReplyDelete1. The authors of Cobra II show that before the 2003 Iraq War, Saddam called his top generals together and let them know that he did not in fact have any WMD any more. They were allegedly shaken and disturbed.
2. The Saddam regime faced certain destruction in March-April 2003, but no Iraqi military unit deployed any WMD to save themselves.
3. All searches of all tagged facilities in post-war Iraq found that the weapons programs had all been closed down by the mid-1990s.
Etc.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteReally, is it me or are the water-carriers for this Administration getting a wee bit desperate for 'good' news?
They are definitely trying to find or make some good news. There is a full scale rehab George job going on. The press conference after his Euro summit yesterday and even a fluff piece in the news about how George goes to bed early every night and when he wakes up at 5:30 he gets up and goes and gets coffee and brings it back for the wife. Gagggh!
Sorry, couldn't handle that mental image for a minute there. :-)
Their sense of self-esteem and purpose were derived from their participation in the Glorious Bush Movement and the Epic War of Civilizations.
ReplyDeleteHas everyone seen the movie The Wave, right?
http://www.xenutv.com/us/wave.htm
Except in America right now, it's not a school exercise, it's a real sociopolitical phenomenon. If you make a political movement part of your identity, you experience real suffering when you see that movement "threatened."
prunes said...
ReplyDelete"Has everyone seen the movie The Wave, right?"
No I haven't seen that one yet. I have seen "Mutiny on the Bounty"
Does that count? :-)
They don't even appreciate the long-term damage they're doing to both the government and America's creditability, do they? I mean, how many more times can they 'cry wolf' before they have to change their names to "Chicken Little"?
ReplyDeleteBACKGROUND INFORMATION
ReplyDeleteIt looks like, in January 2003, the White House used the existence of those same exact shells as part of its effort to claim Saddam was not complying.
Search for the string "550", it appears on page 6 of 9 of this Pentagon hosted document
"What Does Disarmament Look Like?"
The discrepancy, between 550 and 500, seems very small, all things considered.
Thank you for your time.
yankeependragon:
ReplyDeleteI mean, how many more times can they 'cry wolf' before they have to change their names to "Chicken Little"?
Ummm, you're mixing your metaphors ... or rather, illustrative fairy tales. And you know how hard it is for Republicans to keep their fairy tales straight. Don't make it harder for them. ;-)
Cheers,
What I can't wait to see now though is what's gonna happen when the lid blows off the NSA scandal. They are definitely pulling out all of the stops with the "state secrets" ploy and the request for a change of venue.
ReplyDeleteArne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteUmmm, you're mixing your metaphors ... or rather, illustrative fairy tales. And you know how hard it is for Republicans to keep their fairy tales straight. Don't make it harder for them. ;-)
Mabe it's a bunch of chicken littles just trying to dress up and act like wolves. :-)
On a more serious note, all of the signs are there:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.commondreams.org
/headlines06/0622-04.htm
Published on Thursday, June 22, 2006 by the San Francisco Chronicle
Rich City Poor City: Middle-class Neighborhoods Are Disappearing from the Nation's Cities, Leaving Only High- and Low-Income Districts, New Study Says
Mr. Greenwald embarrasses himself with these juvenile rants when news events favor President Bush. He used to have a lighter touch (and therefore more credibility). One can no longer tell a Greenwald post from a Kos diary. More's the pity.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, we have Jonah Goldberg weighing in on the WMDs:
ReplyDeletehttp://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWY5YTI5ZTM2OTQ3YzlkZWQwODY4MjRmNzhmYmY4YjQ=
Shorter JG: Lying doesn't count if you're bad at it.
It didn't take you folks long to go into full denial and excuse mode concerning the DoD disclosure that the US has actually located approximately 500 of what appear to be artillery or mortar rounds filled with sarin nerve agent and mustard gas.
ReplyDeleteLet us knock down the excuses one at a time...
Excuse #1 - Kill the messenger - Senator Santorum.
Santorum did not find the WMD, did not write the DoD report and did not request that this report be written. He is irrelevant to this finding.
Rep. Pete Hoekstra, R-Mich., chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, revealed on Hannity and Colmes last night that DoD had failed to disclose this report concerning an ongoing WMD search to the intelligence committee. When they found out about the report from a third party, the intelligence committee demanded a copy. After they reviewed the report, they insisted that part of its findings be declassified.
Here are the partial findings which have been declassified:
* Since 2003 Coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent.
* Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq’s pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist.
* Pre-Gulf War Iraqi chemical weapons could be sold on the black market. Use of these weapons by terrorists or insurgent groups would have implications for Coalition forces in Iraq. The possibility of use outside Iraq cannot be ruled out.
* The most likely munitions remaining are sarin and mustard-filled projectiles.
* The purity of the agent inside the munitions depends on many factors, including the manufacturing process, potential additives, and environmental storage conditions. While agents degrade over time, chemical warfare agents remain hazardous and potentially lethal.
* It has been reported in open press that insurgents and Iraqi groups desire to acquire and use chemical weapons.
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/
mt/pubfiles/iraqwmd.pdf
Excuse #2 - Sarin is not a WMD.
Sarin is classified as a weapon of mass destruction by the United Nations according to UN Resolution 687, and its production and stockpiling was outlawed by the Chemical Weapons Convention of 1993.
Excuse #3 - The Sarin and Mustard Gas Rounds are Degraded.
The mustard gas rounds are most certainly nearly useless. The material settles and turns into a sludge as time goes on.
Also, if sarin is stored in its final form, it is nearly useless after a few weeks.
However, the Soviets and Americans solved the shelf life problem with sarin by storing its precursors separately in a single binary shell, which would mix the precursors to form the sarin when fired. The Soviets provided binary shells to the Iraqis.
As discussed in the report above, these are pre 1991 rounds of sarin and the military admits that they are still lethal. That means these are most likely binary Soviet sarin artillery shells.
Even at very low concentrations, sarin can be fatal. Death may follow in one minute after direct ingestion of about 0.01 milligram per kilogram of body weight if antidotes, typically atropine and pralidoxime, are not quickly administered...It is estimated that sarin is more than 500 times as toxic as cyanide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin
Even if degraded so that only 100 rounds of sarin remain effective. At a liter or more per round, there is still enough sarin to murder thousands of people.
Excuse #4 - This is old news. The Duelfer report discusses finding a a few chemical WMD.
The Duelfer Report did have the following passage:
While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible Indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter, a policy ISG attributes to Baghdad’s desire to see sanctions lifted, or rendered ineffectual, or its fear of force against it should WMD be discovered.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/
library/report/2004/
isg-final-report/isg-final-
report_vol3_cw_key-findings.htm
In a Fox News interview before is report was issued, Duelfer did report finding about 35 liters of sarin and mustard gas. Glenn noted this in an earlier blog:
[T]he Coaltion as confirmed by Kay and Duelfer did find at least 35 liters of sarin and mustard gas, live biological weapon materials, tons of pesticide on several military bases which could be used as the precursors for making more nerve gas and tons of yellow cake uranium.
The location and disposition of the other WMD stocks which Saddam admitted to the UN that he possessed in the early 90s is still an open matter of debate.
CIA's Kay and Duelfer both alleged that they believe that Saddam destroyed these WMD stockpiles at some point before the war. However, neither man could offer any physical or documentary evidence of this alleged destruction.
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/
2006/03/death-of-shame-in-our-
pundit-class.html
However, the recently disclosed report discusses a discovery of far more than the 35 liters reported by Duelfer before his team was withdrawn from Iraq in March 2004.
Glenn was correct to observe at the time of the Duelfer report that "the location and disposition of the other WMD stocks which Saddam admitted to the UN that he possessed in the early 90s is still an open matter of debate." How much more is still waiting to be discovered in Iraq and perhaps Syria?
Excuse #5 - Saddam just forgot about these 500 chemical WMD
This was an incredible response when Duelfer found 35 liters of this human pesticide. It is completely nonsensical when applied to 500 rounds of this poison. Yet, that does not stop the Donkey press from trying. In the short shrift the Washington Post gave this story, the paper claimed:
The lawmakers pointed to an unclassified summary from a report by the National Ground Intelligence Center regarding 500 chemical munitions shells that had been buried near the Iranian border, and then long forgotten, by Iraqi troops during their eight-year war with Iran, which ended in 1988.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/
wp-dyn/content/article/
2006/06/21/AR2006062101837.html
This amazing claim is completely unsourced. Not even the usual unchecked single anonymous source. The declassified partial summary of findings says nothing about where they found these rounds. When Hugh Hewit interviewed Santorum and asked where the WMD were found and in what quantities, Santorum said that information was still classified.
Excuse #6: Defense Department is so embarrassed by Santorum's claims that they have repudiated them.
There has been no statement at all from DoD. This is a misrepresentation of a Fox News Report from a single anonymous DoD source. Here is the complete and unedited wire version of that DoD source report:
Offering the official administration response to FOX News, a senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.
Given that the declassified findings admit that the chemicals inside of the projectiles are still lethal, this DoD official is most likely speaking of the condition of the artillery shells and whether they could still be fired. This is irrelevant because the chemicals are the WMD, not the shells.
"This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."
This is a fascinating statement given that the ceasefire agreement, for whose violation this country went to war, specifically called for the destruction of tons of pre war chemical munitions. As Glenn correctly observed above, there is no evidence this destruction ever occurred and we have been finding the actual WMD as time goes on.
Here are the inconvenient parts of the Fox report, which AL neglected to mention or even cite:
The official said the findings did raise questions about the years of weapons inspections that had not resulted in locating the fairly sizeable stash of chemical weapons. And he noted that it may say something about Hussein's intent and desire.
Interesting point that both the UN and later the Duelfer team could not find these WMD. Inspections were largely useless.
The report does suggest that some of the weapons were likely put on the black market and may have been used outside Iraq.
This may be a reference to the attempted truck bombing of Amman where the Jordanians allegedly found nerve gas in the truck bomb.
He also said that the Defense Department statement shortly after the March 2003 invasion saying that "we had all known weapons facilities secured," has proven itself to be untrue.
"It turned out the whole country was an ammo dump," he said, adding that on more than one occasion, a conventional weapons site has been uncovered and chemical weapons have been discovered mixed within them.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/
0,2933,200499,00.html
Which begs the questions, how many more WMD are still hidden and can we find them before the terrorists do?
Mr. Greenwald embarrasses himself with these juvenile rants when news events favor President Bush. He used to have a lighter touch (and therefore more credibility). One can no longer tell a Greenwald post from a Kos diary. More's the pity.
ReplyDeleteYou're gonna talk about Greenwald embarrassing himself?!? Jay-zus H. Key-rist I swear irony died when Bush swore his first inauguration oath.....
Anyway, I hope this story gets a lot of play in Pennsylvania. It'd be sweet to see Senator Ricky get not merely a defeat, but an absolute stomping in November.
-- sglover
notherbob2 embarrasses himself by exhibiting his lack of reading comprehension:
ReplyDeleteMr. Greenwald embarrasses himself with these juvenile rants when news events favor President Bush. He used to have a lighter touch (and therefore more credibility). One can no longer tell a Greenwald post from a Kos diary. More's the pity.
Ummmm, this is an "Anonymous Liberal" post (albeit updates but Glenn).
I'd note the lack of substance other than that in notherbob2's criticism here. At least the troll HWSNBN did his usual prostration and supplication to Dubya's rising manliness ... and on to that miasmatic efflux in my next post, friends....
Cheers,
Here is the video from Hannity & Colmes segment last night on the released WMD report.
ReplyDelete> http://hotair.com/archives/top-picks/
2006/06/21/video-santorum-hoekstra-
mcinerney-talk-wmd-on-hc/
There is a great deal of blather as par for these talking head shows. However, of interest are the following:
Peter Hoekstra observed that only 15 rounds of sarin murdered approximately 5000 people in the 1988 bombing of the Kurd town of Halabja. We have found hundreds.
UN WMD Inspector Tim Trevan confirmed that the mustard gas is likely inert, but the sarin should still be dangerous. Trevan also admitted that those who claimed that Saddam had no WMD were obviously wrong.
bart, do you get paid to do this s--t?
ReplyDeleteGlenn,
ReplyDeleteI hope I don't sound too much like angryadvertiseliberallyguy but I am curious because I think this thing is going to turn out to be a big deal.
Are you a member of the "Townhouse" email list and did you get the Kos message on the Jerome Armstrong issue?
Bart, you have to be the biggest jackass troll I have ever read. Are you really using wikipedia and Hannity & Colmes as authoratative sources?
ReplyDeletecfaller96 said...
ReplyDeletebart, do you get paid to do this s--t?
Quite the opposite. Time I spend educating people here is not billable to by clients.
However, I will be glad to accept your donations...
HWSNBN, clueless as ever:
ReplyDeleteLet us knock down the excuses one at a time...
Excuse #1 - Kill the messenger - Senator Santorum.
ROFLMAO. Yes, "kill the messenger" through the despicably dishonest tactic of showing he's full'o'sh*te. Will travesties of rhetorical excess never cease?
Santorum did not find the WMD, did not write the DoD report and did not request that this report be written. He is irrelevant to this finding.
Are we talking about the "report" that consists of six bullets (comprising eight sentences total) with nary a significant fact (outside of an acknowledgement that the weapons were pre-Gulf War and had degraded)?
Rep. Pete Hoekstra, R-Mich., chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, revealed on Hannity and Colmes last night that DoD had failed to disclose this report concerning an ongoing WMD search to the intelligence committee. When they found out about the report from a third party, the intelligence committee demanded a copy. After they reviewed the report, they insisted that part of its findings be declassified.
DoD has weighed in, and sez that Santorom and Hoekstra are full'o'shite.
Here are the partial findings which have been declassified:
* Since 2003 Coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent.
* Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq’s pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist.
* Pre-Gulf War Iraqi chemical weapons could be sold on the black market. Use of these weapons by terrorists or insurgent groups would have implications for Coalition forces in Iraq. The possibility of use outside Iraq cannot be ruled out.
* The most likely munitions remaining are sarin and mustard-filled projectiles.
* The purity of the agent inside the munitions depends on many factors, including the manufacturing process, potential additives, and environmental storage conditions. While agents degrade over time, chemical warfare agents remain hazardous and potentially lethal.
* It has been reported in open press that insurgents and Iraqi groups desire to acquire and use chemical weapons.
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/
mt/pubfiles/iraqwmd.pdf
Yep. Old news.
Excuse #2 - Sarin is not a WMD.
Sarin is classified as a weapon of mass destruction by the United Nations according to UN Resolution 687, and its production and stockpiling was outlawed by the Chemical Weapons Convention of 1993.
To be honest, while it is a prohibited agent, it's not all that good (and degrades fairly quickly). But it's hardly news that Saddam had Sarin (and even used it) pre-Gulf War.
Excuse #3 - The Sarin and Mustard Gas Rounds are Degraded.
The mustard gas rounds are most certainly nearly useless. The material settles and turns into a sludge as time goes on.
Same goes for Sarin; although not as caustic as mustard gas, it still is useless at the present unless you force your enemies to eat their dinner out of the shells.
Also, if sarin is stored in its final form, it is nearly useless after a few weeks.
However, the Soviets and Americans solved the shelf life problem with sarin by storing its precursors separately in a single binary shell, which would mix the precursors to form the sarin when fired. The Soviets provided binary shells to the Iraqis.
No reports these are/were binaries. But even binaries are subject to degradation.
As discussed in the report above, these are pre 1991 rounds of sarin and the military admits that they are still lethal....
On the contrary, the brief says pretty much the opposite.
... That means these are most likely binary Soviet sarin artillery shells.
"Objection, your Honour! Facts not in evidence...."
Even at very low concentrations, sarin can be fatal. Death may follow in one minute after direct ingestion of about 0.01 milligram per kilogram of body weight if antidotes, typically atropine and pralidoxime, are not quickly administered...It is estimated that sarin is more than 500 times as toxic as cyanide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin
Even if degraded so that only 100 rounds of sarin remain effective. At a liter or more per round, there is still enough sarin to murder thousands of people.
"Objection! Facts not in evidence..."
Excuse #4 - This is old news. The Duelfer report discusses finding a a few chemical WMD.
The Duelfer Report did have the following passage:
While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible Indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter, a policy ISG attributes to Baghdad’s desire to see sanctions lifted, or rendered ineffectual, or its fear of force against it should WMD be discovered.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/
library/report/2004/
isg-final-report/isg-final-
report_vol3_cw_key-findings.htm
Yep.
In a Fox News interview before is report was issued, Duelfer did report finding about 35 liters of sarin and mustard gas. Glenn noted this in an earlier blog:
[T]he Coalition as confirmed by Kay and Duelfer did find at least 35 liters of sarin and mustard gas, live biological weapon materials, tons of pesticide on several military bases which could be used as the precursors for making more nerve gas and tons of yellow cake uranium.
The location and disposition of the other WMD stocks which Saddam admitted to the UN that he possessed in the early 90s is still an open matter of debate.
... For RW foamers and Dubya sycophants....
CIA's Kay and Duelfer both alleged that they believe that Saddam destroyed these WMD stockpiles at some point before the war. However, neither man could offer any physical or documentary evidence of this alleged destruction.
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/
2006/03/death-of-shame-in-our-
pundit-class.html
Wow. HWSNBN cites his own post as Glenn "noting" something....
However, the recently disclosed report discusses a discovery of far more than the 35 liters reported by Duelfer before his team was withdrawn from Iraq in March 2004.
HWSNBN sees things that others don't see. Haldol can help alleviate that....
Glenn was correct to observe at the time of the Duelfer report that "the location and disposition of the other WMD stocks which Saddam admitted to the UN that he possessed in the early 90s is still an open matter of debate."...
Ummm, looking at the cited page, it seems that this language was written by HWSNBN, not Glenn....
... How much more is still waiting to be discovered in Iraq and perhaps Syria?
"The things I 'know', they just ain't so..." -- Harold "Bart" DePalma
Excuse #5 - Saddam just forgot about these 500 chemical WMD
This was an incredible response when Duelfer found 35 liters of this human pesticide. It is completely nonsensical when applied to 500 rounds of this poison. Yet, that does not stop the Donkey press from trying....
Even Duelfer, talking about these shells, said they were consistent with being lost or discarded in the rapidly changing battlefront of the Iran/Iraq war.
... In the short shrift the Washington Post gave this story, the paper claimed:
The lawmakers pointed to an unclassified summary from a report by the National Ground Intelligence Center regarding 500 chemical munitions shells that had been buried near the Iranian border, and then long forgotten, by Iraqi troops during their eight-year war with Iran, which ended in 1988.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/
wp-dyn/content/article/
2006/06/21/AR2006062101837.html
This amazing claim is completely unsourced....
Irony is dead. HWSNBN manufactures "facts" that 'must be true' above out of thin air, and then complains that the WaPo isn't credible.
... Not even the usual unchecked single anonymous source. The declassified partial summary of findings says nothing about where they found these rounds....
So, obviously, they weren't one and the same. With enough mind-altering drugs, I might be able to follow that logic, but no thanks, that way lies madness....
... When Hugh Hewit interviewed Santorum and asked where the WMD were found and in what quantities, Santorum said that information was still classified.
"We can't tell you. Just trust us."
Excuse #6: Defense Department is so embarrassed by Santorum's claims that they have repudiated them.
There has been no statement at all from DoD. This is a misrepresentation of a Fox News Report from a single anonymous DoD source. Here is the complete and unedited wire version of that DoD source report:
Offering the official administration response to FOX News, a senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.
See here.
Given that the declassified findings admit that the chemicals inside of the projectiles are still lethal,...
HWSNBN sees things we can't see. Remember that.
... this DoD official is most likely speaking of the condition of the artillery shells and whether they could still be fired. This is irrelevant because the chemicals are the WMD, not the shells.
"Objection! Facts not in evidence...."
"This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."
Yep.
This is a fascinating statement given that the ceasefire agreement, for whose violation this country went to war, specifically called for the destruction of tons of pre war chemical munitions. As Glenn correctly observed above, there is no evidence this destruction ever occurred and we have been finding the actual WMD as time goes on.
Everyone acknowledges that there may be remaining CWs in Iraq, hell, the U.S. itself has mislaid CWs, IIRC. Whoopdedo.
Here are the inconvenient parts of the Fox report, which AL neglected to mention or even cite:
The official said the findings did raise questions about the years of weapons inspections that had not resulted in locating the fairly sizeable stash of chemical weapons.
HWSNBN is citing found (but unusable) weapons for the proposition that weapons haven't been found?
And he noted that it may say something about Hussein's intent and desire.
Total non sequitur.
Interesting point that both the UN and later the Duelfer team could not find these WMD....
These were the weapons found since 2003 inclusive. *sheesh* How dumb can you get???
... Inspections were largely useless.
The report does suggest that some of the weapons were likely put on the black market and may have been used outside Iraq.
Nope. HWSNBN sees things that others can't see again.
This may be a reference to the attempted truck bombing of Amman where the Jordanians allegedly found nerve gas in the truck bomb.
He also said that the Defense Department statement shortly after the March 2003 invasion saying that "we had all known weapons facilities secured," has proven itself to be untrue.
Huh?
"It turned out the whole country was an ammo dump," he said, adding that on more than one occasion, a conventional weapons site has been uncovered and chemical weapons have been discovered mixed within them.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/
0,2933,200499,00.html
And?
Which begs the questions, how many more WMD are still hidden and can we find them before the terrorists do?
Tell you what, Bart: Why don't you do your civic duty and go over there and take a look?
Cheers,
So the question of whether Bush was lying through his teeth during the run-up to the war all depends on whether some sarin-filled shells which predate the first Gulf war still have a usable amount of sarin in them? If so then everything said in the run-up was true!!! And yellowcake too!!!
ReplyDeleteGive me a break....
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBart, you have to be the biggest jackass troll I have ever read. Are you really using wikipedia and Hannity & Colmes as authoratative sources?
3/4 of the posts here are attacking the messenger excuses.
I cited to the head of the House Intel Committee and a UN WMD Inspector, who happened to be on Hannity & Colmes because the Donkey media is spiking this story.
If you question the Wikipedia description of the lethality of Sarin, feel free to double check it as I did by googling the subject. You will find several safety bulletins for workers who could be exposed to this poison with excruciating detail about the exposure rates which can lead to death or injury. Wikipedia had the most concise and straight forward summary of all that info.
arne:
ReplyDeleteIn that massive tap dance avoiding the points I made, you did come up with a mistake.
I did mistakenly attribute to Glenn a reply I made to one of his posts when the google referred to that post.
I apologize profusely to Glenn. I had no intention of attributing things to you which you did not in fact say.
As to who wrote this comment, I stand corrected.
Thank you for spotting it arne.
Former Army intelligence agent Dave DeBatto reported months ago that chemical weapons were found in Iraq - there is a twist in the story, though:
ReplyDeleteOne of the most memorable things about the WMD, DeBatto said, was that the bombs had been sold to Iraq in the late 1980’s by the United States. The bills of lading were still attached and perfectly legible. The entire weapons cache was photographed and videotaped for U.S. Army Military Intelligence and hauled away almost immediately after DeBatto’s discovery by a British Army ordinance disposal unit. DeBatto has been unable to get the Pentagon to release any information concerning the disposition of the weapons since he returned from Iraq.
See: http://www.davedebatto.com/archive.php?article_id=1
Man, this is a twisted and dark world we've living in.
Bart:
ReplyDeleteWhat part of "degraded" and "pre Gulf War" don't you understand?
You take the unexceptional statement that even degraded residue of chemical weapons is hazardous and leap from there to the assumption that we're talking about functional binary Sarin. Then you build an entire castle in the sky on this fantasy foundation for your hero to live in.
You really ought to cut back on your posting - the more you post, the less convincing your posts are.
Do they count as WMD if they were developed with the blessing and encouragement of the Reagan/Bush administration? (hint: that's probably the reason this isn't being trumpeted from the moutaintops.)
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 1:45 PM,
ReplyDeleteI like this part better though...
[davedebatto.com]
"The Iraqi Air Force officer that led DeBatto’s team to the site testified that he personally hid them from UNSCOM (the UN weapons inspection team) for over eight years by playing a “cat and mouse” game with “Scott Ritter” and “Hanz Blix”, during the 1990’s and leading up to the war in 2003. The bombs were buried in several hidden locations during the UN inspector’s visits and then dug up and moved to other, secret locations after the inspectors had left."
[...]
And then there's this from USA Today back in the good old days when instead of editorializing, newspapers actually reported the news on occasion:
[USA Today]
5/17/2004
"Sarin-filled munitions in Iraq worry U.S."
"WASHINGTON — The small amount of deadly nerve agent sarin dispersed by a shell that exploded near a U.S. military convoy apparently was left over from Saddam Hussein's banned chemical arsenal built up two decades ago."
[...]
"It is hard to know if this is one that just was overlooked — and there were always some that were overlooked, we knew that — or if this was one that came from a hidden stockpile," Kay said. While the explosion demonstrates that Saddam hadn't complied fully with U.N. resolutions, Kay added, "It doesn't strike me as a big deal."
[...]
"Kay, who led a U.S. team hunting for such weapons, said it appears the sarin shell was one of tens of thousands produced for the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s. The shells were banned by the United Nations after the first Gulf War, and Saddam said he had destroyed them all in the mid-1990s."
[...]
"The shell was of a "binary" type that requires mixing of chemicals, usually by an explosion in the air over a target. Since the shell exploded on the ground, the chemical mixing did not occur as completely as needed to make it deadly, according to preliminary CIA and U.S. military analysis."
[...]
See, there really are scads more WMDs, but the CIA won't let Bush declassify all that they've found on them, even tho, yanno, it is a matter central to Bush's political travails. Bush is hamstrung by them, he is. As Instapundit quotes from an email Michael Ledeen sent Hinderaker:
ReplyDeletePlease point out to your readers that Negroponte only declassified a few fragments of a much bigger document. Read the press conference and you will see that Santorum and Hoekstra were furious at the meager declassification. They will push for more, and we all must do that. I am told that there is a lot more in the full document, which CIA is desperate to protect, since it shows the miserable job they did looking for WMDs in Iraq.
And then Reynolds stoopidly adds: Some future historians will have fun with the CIA's bureaucratic turf wars. I just hope that they're writing in English, and not Arabic . . . .
Cuz oh boy, if we lose in Iraq, the Ay-rabs will take us over and do all the history. To state the obvious, this is not serious analysis, even for punditry.
HWSNBN does "do the right thing" and admit another mistake:
ReplyDeletearne:
In that massive tap dance avoiding the points I made, you did come up with a mistake.
I did mistakenly attribute to Glenn a reply I made to one of his posts when the google referred to that post.
Good on ya, Bart. Acceptance is one of the steps to recovery. Now see if you can stop making errors in the first place. That would be better yet. :-)
Cheers,
From Bart at 1:35PM:
ReplyDelete"In that massive tap dance avoiding the points I made, you did come up with a mistake."
'Tap dance'? Since when is a line-by-line rebuttal of your frankly incomprehensible (in the sense any thinking individual would continue to advocate these positions) post anything resembling a 'tap dance'?
Why do I suspect you never actually read any of these rebuttals, be they from myself, Arne or others? That's really the only explanation for this I can envision.
Do you need them expressed in another language besides modern English? Do you need a PowerPoint presentation? Drawings made by five-year-olds?
me said...
ReplyDeleteBart: What part of "degraded" and "pre Gulf War" don't you understand?
You take the unexceptional statement that even degraded residue of chemical weapons is hazardous and leap from there to the assumption that we're talking about functional binary Sarin. Then you build an entire castle in the sky on this fantasy foundation for your hero to live in.
Once again, here is my reasoning. The final form of sarin degrades into an inert form within weeks while the precursors kept separately in a binary shell can last for years.
If the captured materials are still hazardous as the report indicates, then the materials had to have been kept in binary form. They never would have lasted this long if they were in final form.
The UN Inspector, Tim Trevan, had no problem assuming that the prewar sarin could still be dangerous.
Glenn, I have been trying to verbalize what you said in your post at 10:44 for months now, but could never come up with the words.
ReplyDeleteThanks for so eloquently describing why the cult of personality around Bush exists and why it won't go away, regardless of how many failures he manages to stack up before leaving office.
--Kristin
Okay, let's take this from the top:
ReplyDelete1. Senator Santorum's 'discovery' amounts to nothing more than the very unsurprising statement that approximately 500 pieces of munitions (no technical specs given) that appear to contain degraded mustard gas and sarin nerve agent have been found over the last three years.
2. There is no details presently about how badly degraded the chemical agents are, nor the precise origins and condition of the 'munitions' themselves, beyond that is they likely predate the 1991 Gulf War.
3. It is uncertain at this time if this revelation was necessarily legal or proper on the part of the Senator.
4. The fact these old munitions are still around to be found is neither unexpected nor terribly surprising, particularly when one considers how heavily invested the Hussein regime was in armaments prior to the 1991 war. Doubtless there are materials aplenty to be found in dribs and drabs throughout the country; the question is "is there any evidence of an ongoing or working WMD program in existence before the 2003 invasion?" The answer to date has been a resounding NO.
Given these ambiguities, any *thinking* person would at least pause and consider how little this actually means *before* they start declaring "Ah-Ha! We were right!"
Please note the qualifier before responding.
yankee:
ReplyDeleteIf you insist, I have a break from work and will demonstrate the arne shuffle if you like...
Excuse #1 - Kill the messenger - Senator Santorum.
ROFLMAO. Yes, "kill the messenger" through the despicably dishonest tactic of showing he's full'o'sh*te. Will travesties of rhetorical excess never cease?
That's it. arne's idea of a rebuttal was to call Sanstrom "full'o'sh*te."
Are we talking about the "report" that consists of six bullets (comprising eight sentences total) with nary a significant fact (outside of an acknowledgement that the weapons were pre-Gulf War and had degraded)?
This is tap dancing move is called change the subject. The key facts in this short partial disclosure of findings were the finding of 500 sarin and mustard gas shells that Duelfer claimed were destroyed in 1991 and 1992 and the fact that these shells remain dangerous.
DoD has weighed in, and sez that Santorom and Hoekstra are full'o'shite.
Again with the namecalling. Tell me again why I should bother reading this nonsense?
Yep. Old news.
This isn't even a two step, nevertheless tap dancing.
Bart: Sarin is classified as a weapon of mass destruction by the United Nations according to UN Resolution 687, and its production and stockpiling was outlawed by the Chemical Weapons Convention of 1993.
To be honest, while it is a prohibited agent, it's not all that good (and degrades fairly quickly).
Feel free to swallow a thimble full of Sarin. You will go from tapdancing to doing what we in the military nicknamed the "dying cockroach."
But it's hardly news that Saddam had Sarin (and even used it) pre-Gulf War.
And now the tap dancing move known as the misdirection. The question is not what Saddam had before the war, but rather what he kept in violation of the ceasefire after the war.
No reports these are/were binaries. But even binaries are subject to degradation.
An actual point! Check out the post from the USA Today above where the sarin round the local terrorists attempted to blow up near our troops was a standard soviet binary round and the soldiers were not full exposed because the explosion failed to mix the precursors sufficiently to create actual sarin.
As discussed in the report above, these are pre 1991 rounds of sarin and the military admits that they are still lethal....
On the contrary, the brief says pretty much the opposite.
This tap dance move is the simple denial of what is written.
Even at very low concentrations, sarin can be fatal. Death may follow in one minute after direct ingestion of about 0.01 milligram per kilogram of body weight if antidotes, typically atropine and pralidoxime, are not quickly administered...It is estimated that sarin is more than 500 times as toxic as cyanide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin
Even if degraded so that only 100 rounds of sarin remain effective. At a liter or more per round, there is still enough sarin to murder thousands of people.
"Objection! Facts not in evidence..."
What facts? I posed a hypothesis based on the lethality of Sarin. Note the word "if."
Bart: However, the recently disclosed report discusses a discovery of far more than the 35 liters reported by Duelfer before his team was withdrawn from Iraq in March 2004.
HWSNBN sees things that others don't see. Haldol can help alleviate that....
Try reading the report starting with the number 500...
Even Duelfer, talking about these shells, said they were consistent with being lost or discarded in the rapidly changing battlefront of the Iran/Iraq war.
Huh?
This is all Duelfer had to say in his report on the subject:
While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991.
He was obviously wrong.
I have to go back to work now. The rest of arne's "rebuttals" are snarks like...
Irony is dead. HWSNBN manufactures "facts" that 'must be true' above out of thin air, and then complains that the WaPo isn't credible.
With enough mind-altering drugs, I might be able to follow that logic, but no thanks, that way lies madness....
"We can't tell you. Just trust us."
HWSNBN sees things we can't see. Remember that.
Yep.
Nope. HWSNBN sees things that others can't see again.
How can one respond to such reasoned brilliance?
bart sez:
ReplyDeleteThe UN Inspector, Tim Trevan, had no problem assuming that the prewar sarin could still be dangerous.
Oh, for pity's sake, riding a bicycle can be dangerous.
Let's see if I have this straight. Hussein had oodles of weapons of mass destruction at his disposal, but he forgot he had them? No, wait, Russia raced in and moved them out to Syria so that bin Laden wouldn't accidentally trip over them and get hurt.
Right! Saddam Hussein, with all his WMD chose to mount virtually no defense against the attack by the mighty U.S. military, choosing instead to hide in a hole in the ground, be found, imprisoned, found guilty at trial, and probably executed.
And George Bush chose to keep mum about the WMD in Iraq (after blasting it all over the news for months) because he didn't want to worry France? What a noble fellow he is.
Hush up, bart, and eat your Freedom Fries.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteOkay, let's take this from the top:
1. Senator Santorum's 'discovery' amounts to nothing more than the very unsurprising statement that approximately 500 pieces of munitions (no technical specs given) that appear to contain degraded mustard gas and sarin nerve agent have been found over the last three years.
Unsurprising? Tell it to Mr. Duelfer and all of those who claimed that Iraq had no WMD.
Were you one of these? Be honest.
2. There is no details presently about how badly degraded the chemical agents are, nor the precise origins and condition of the 'munitions' themselves, beyond that is they likely predate the 1991 Gulf War.
That is correct.
3. It is uncertain at this time if this revelation was necessarily legal or proper on the part of the Senator.
Mr. Negroponte states in his cover letter that the summary is declassified.
4. The fact these old munitions are still around to be found is neither unexpected nor terribly surprising, particularly when one considers how heavily invested the Hussein regime was in armaments prior to the 1991 war. Doubtless there are materials aplenty to be found in dribs and drabs throughout the country; the question is "is there any evidence of an ongoing or working WMD program in existence before the 2003 invasion?" The answer to date has been a resounding NO.
There was no reason for Saddam to have an ongoing Sarin or mustard gas program after the war. He had perfected and used these weapons back in the 80s. Apparently, he kept a fair number of them hidden around the country.
Given these ambiguities, any *thinking* person would at least pause and consider how little this actually means *before* they start declaring "Ah-Ha! We were right!"
This is only a fraction of what the intelligence communities across the world thought they would find. Therefore, they can hardly claim: Ah-Ha! We were right!"
Rather, this puts the lie to the claim that Saddam destroyed his WMD and had none when the liberation of Iraq began.
If Hoekstra is correct that the Iraqis used just 15 of these sarin weapons to murder around 5000 kurds, 500 of these weapons or some fraction thereof is quite enough to present an massive threat against any civilian population.
This disclosure is very significant no matter how you wish to spin it.
From Bart at 2:46PM:
ReplyDelete"How can one respond to such reasoned brilliance?"
By accepting:
1. The messenger is, indeed, f*ll*fsh*t and has a long, sad history of rhetorical and factual errors that rob any statement by him (including that water is wet) immediately suspect.
2. There are no details of the quantity nor quality of the chemical or nerve agents were given, making any claim of their lethality highly suspect.
3. There are no details of the process or circumstances whereby these munitions were found after the invasion, making any claim they 'prove' the existence of a pre-invasion WMD stockpile or program highly suspect.
4. You yourself tapdance around the main points: these are apparently old munitions that prove nothing and are of questionable (if any) hazard.
No shame in that last point, mind you, particularly if you're heavily invested both emotionally and intellectually in a pre-determined mindset. Just don't expect the rest of us to join in.
In short, Bart, the derth of technical details and information make this 'discovery' a decided dud.
From Bart at 2:57PM:
ReplyDelete"Unsurprising? Tell it to Mr. Duelfer and all of those who claimed that Iraq had no WMD."
I believe you and others have repeatedly point out Duelfer's report states the ISG could never rule out the pre-invasion removal of existing WMD to Syria or elsewhere.
The same report did state there was no evidence Iraq had any *deployable* WMD available at the time of the invasion, and that any pre-1991 leftover CWs or materials did *not* present "a militarily significant threat".
The Devil's always in the details, isn't he?
From Bart at 2:57PM:
ReplyDelete"If Hoekstra is correct that the Iraqis used just 15 of these sarin weapons to murder around 5000 kurds, 500 of these weapons or some fraction thereof is quite enough to present an massive threat against any civilian population."
And here I thought you'd previously dismissed those stories, or is that only when its convenient for your argument?
I'm also well aware of how lethal sarin nerve agent is. Just look how much chaos was caused by the 30% purity material used by Aum Shinrikyo in the Tokoyo subways in April, 1995. Granted, each of the five teams invoved carried a litre each in liquid form and their delivery system was primatively stupid.
Nevertheless, given how little we know about the condition of these materials Santorum is so busy hawking, I'm going with the notion this is more sound than substance.
"This disclosure is very significant no matter how you wish to spin it."
I repeat, until we know a lot, LOT more and hear some serious, expert testimony, this is more sound than substance.
2:57 PM
Just a reminder......
ReplyDeleteLast month, the International Atomic Energy Agency — the U.N. nuclear watchdog — and the interim Iraqi government reported that about 380 tons of high-grade explosives had been taken from the Al Qaqaa facility after the fall of Baghdad on April 9, 2003
phd0: the interim Iraqi government reported that about 380 tons of high-grade explosives had been taken from the Al Qaqaa facility after the fall of Baghdad on April 9, 2003
ReplyDeleteThis was because US troops were busy "securing" the oil ministry and its associated sites.
yankee:
ReplyDeleteI would dearly love to see more of this report and anything related to Iraqi WMD and ties to al Qaeda.
Will you join me in emailing the WH and our reps in Congress to ask that it be declassified?
Bart,
ReplyDeleteYour own tap dancing is so bad you make Ruby Keeler look graceful.
Nuf Said said...
ReplyDeleteBart: "Even if degraded so that only 100 rounds of sarin remain effective. At a liter or more per round, there is still enough sarin to murder thousands of people."
What statistical analysis did you do to come up with '100 effective rounds'?
I posed a hypothesis (note the word "if") that assumed 80% of the rounds were ineffective, which is a rather conservative estimate, just to show how deadly only 20% of the rounds could be.
If you like, we can assume that only 50% are ineffective and end up with 250 rounds.
bart, are you saying that these munitions represented an imminent threat to the United States prior to the invasion of Iraq?
ReplyDeleteLet me ask you this, Bart, is the recovery 500 degraded, pre-Gulf War, useless canisters of Sarin Gas worth killing Two Thousand, Five-Hundred American soldiers?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteLet me ask you this, Bart, is the recovery 500 degraded, pre-Gulf War, useless canisters of Sarin Gas worth killing Two Thousand, Five-Hundred American soldiers?
Just 15 bombs of this human pesticide can and has murdered twice that number of civilians, far more than died in 9/11.
How much is it worth to remove 500 (and probably many more) such bombs from the hands of a meglomaniac who already had used these WMD to slaughter thousands of Kurds and Iranians and who was also sheltering al Qaeda, which was looking for WMD to use against the US?
Of course, you equation ignores freeing 23 million people and waging war against the only substantial force of al Qaeda left in the world.
Therefore, my answer is an unequivocal yes.
ka-bar,
ReplyDelete"I now truly believe you are fundamentally evil. Flawed in ways that can not be mended."
Wow "ka-bar", you sure fixed my little red wagon there... I don't know if I can pull myself together.... Boo Hoo.....
Just because Anon's quote suggests that the shell's were sold to Iraq by the US, doesn't mean it's true. The Iraqis themselves were also very capable of producing 155mm NATO standard shells [based on a 50 year old design] on their own, and nothing would have prevented them from creating false documentation to go along with them.
cfaller96 said...
ReplyDeletebart, are you saying that these munitions represented an imminent threat to the United States prior to the invasion of Iraq?
They were definitely an ongoing threat which was not going away.
Now, let's place this in context with some recently translated captured Iraqi documents...
This 2001 Iraqi military memo requested volunteers for suicide missions against US Interests:
In the Name of God the Merciful The Compassionate
Top Secret
The Command of Ali Bin Abi Taleb Air Force Base
No 3/6/104
Date 11 March 2001
To all the Units
Subject: Volunteer for Suicide Mission
The top secret letter 2205 of the Military Branch of Al Qadisya on 4/3/2001 announced by the top secret letter 246 from the Command of the military sector of Zi Kar on 8/3/2001 announced to us by the top secret letter 154 from the Command of Ali Military Division on 10/3/2001 we ask to provide that Division with the names of those who desire to volunteer for Suicide Mission to liberate Palestine and to strike American Interests and according what is shown below to please review and inform us.
Air Brigadier General
Abdel Magid Hammod Ali
Commander of Ali Bin Abi Taleb Air Force Base
Air Colonel
Mohamad Majid Mahdi.
http://www.freerepublic.com/
focus/f-news/1610012/posts
This 2003 Iraqi memo reviews the training programs for foreign suicide terrorists going on in Iraq:
Translation of Page 20 in the pdf document:
In the Name of God the most Merciful and the most Compassionate
Top Secret
Recommendation on how to use the Arab Feedaeyeens (Suicide Martyrs)
1. Supervision for training and usage
Formation of a devoted commission headed by Lieutenant General Hamza Alwan Zaher from the Directory of Military Engineering and the membership of Staff General Azawi Saleh Hassan from the Directory of Planning and the and Colonel Dr. Abdel Rahim Abdel Saheb Ali from the Directory of Political Orientation and that the commission will be related to Mr. assistant of Chairman of Army Training Staff.
2. The Training Course
The commission will prepare a very intensive training course for a period of week where it will be focused to raise the physical fitness and train on how use the automatic rifle Kalashnikoff and hand grenades and the largest section of the course will be specialized to focus of using the explosive material in the body, in motorcycle, in cars, and in camels.
3. Instructors
They must be dedicated from the Special Forces Command, from the Directory of Military Engineering and from the First Military School those that appear in them competence and capability.
(1-3) Top Secret
Translation of page 21 in the pdf document:
Top Secret
4. Requirement of duty
A. The Explosives
All the explosives and its attachments will be provided by the Directory of Military Engineering.
B . The Cars
All the cars and motorcycles that will be used in fulfilling the duties will be provided by the Department of Armament and Equipping.
C. The Camels
Will be provided by the Directory of General Military Intelligence.
D. Light Weapons
The Kalashnikoff rifles and the hand grenades will be provided by the Department of Armament and Equipping.
5. Usage
The Directory of General Military Intelligence will take the responsibility to provide the dictations and supervise the execution of duties and that this will occur after that the end of extensive training period.
(2-3) Top Secret
Translation of page 22 in the pdf document.
Top secret
6. General issues
A. The representative of the Directory of Political Orientation and the Religious Scholars from among the volunteers to give religious sermons that emphasis on Jihad for the Arab volunteers outside the hours dedicated for training.
B. Provide the Badwen clothing and other equipments (Travel homes,…) by the directory of general military intelligence.
Signature….. 28/2
(3-3) Top secret.
http://www.freerepublic.com/
focus/f-news/1600367/posts
This is the situation which faced President Bush in 2003.
Saddam possessed WMD which could slaughter thousands of civilians.
Saddam was a mass murderer with a questionable grasp on reality.
Saddam had a long history of using WMD.
Saddam was in a state of low level war with the United States behind a shaky ceasefire.
Saddam was sheltering and training foreign terrorists to conduct suicide missions against US interests.
These foreign terrorist had attacked the United States on several occasions.
These foreign terrorist groups were actively looking for WMD with which to attack the US.
You do not have to fill in too many dots to see the danger here.
Just 15 bombs of this human pesticide can and has murdered twice that number of civilians, far more than died in 9/11.
ReplyDeleteI think wingnuts don't understand what the word "degraded" means.
Scott Ritter, an ex marine, who was involved in the the early stages of disarming Iraq after the Gulf War I of Bush I, made the point quite forcefully that chemical stockpiles of WMDs have a very short shelf life and that Iraq had no usable chemical WMD stcks by 1996. Hand Blix confirmed this at a later date after the war was launched. Isn't it somewhat irrelevant whether Iraq had the capability to manufacture the shells with no munitions to deliver?
ReplyDeleteSantorum, Hannity et al need to be read the now declassified DoD memo which debunks their desperate lies.
There is an urgency in shaping the political debate from another perspective. Troop withdrawals from and cessation of air raids in Iraq really ought to be justified on grounds of illegality rather than on the impossibility of winning or accomplishing an as yet undefined mission.
The unnecessary colonial occupation of Iraq is proving to be one the most brutish in history. William Blum has a good summary on this at http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13719.htm
HWSNBN sets his tilt at another giant:
ReplyDeletef you insist, I have a break from work and will demonstrate the arne shuffle if you like...
[HWSNBN]: Excuse #1 - Kill the messenger - Senator Santorum.
[Arne]: ROFLMAO. Yes, "kill the messenger" through the despicably dishonest tactic of showing he's full'o'sh*te. Will travesties of rhetorical excess never cease?
That's it. arne's idea of a rebuttal was to call Sanstrom "full'o'sh*te."
This response of mine was to HWSNBN's "straw man" here. It's HWSNBN that brings up the issue of personal attacks. I simply pointed out that the responses to "Man On Dog" Santorum's inanities was to point out that he's a screaming nut-job and that his claims are hysterical ... by pointing out what's wrong with them. I didn't claim to do the latter here, nor was it necessary; the subject was the nature of the attacks on Santorum, and I correctly described them. If someone had said that Santorum is a certifiable wingnut and because of that, we shouldn't address his allegations, that would be argumentum ad hominem. No one has done that, so HWSNBN's claim is a "straw man".
[Arne]: Are we talking about the "report" that consists of six bullets (comprising eight sentences total) with nary a significant fact (outside of an acknowledgement that the weapons were pre-Gulf War and had degraded)?
This is tap dancing move is called change the subject. The key facts in this short partial disclosure of findings were the finding of 500 sarin and mustard gas shells that Duelfer claimed were destroyed in 1991 and 1992 and the fact that these shells remain dangerous.
Outside of the inconvenient fact that Duelfer didn't make such a claim, the 500 shells found so far (over 3 years, some of which and perhaps even these particular ones were accounted for iby Duelfer) haven't been shown to be lethal. Dangerous perhaps, but hardly shown to be functionally lethal as CWs. Even HWSNBN's cribbed bullet points say only "potentially lethal" (and that not WRT the 500 shells found, but rather hypothetical munitions still extant). I'd point out that if the 500 (or less) filled shells found were no longer particularly functional or dangerous, any others out there would likely not be either.
[Arne]: DoD has weighed in, and sez that Santorom and Hoekstra are full'o'shite.
Again with the namecalling. Tell me again why I should bother reading this nonsense?
HWSNBN even quoted the military's response in his forst diatribe:
"Offering the official administration response to FOX News, a senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.
"This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."
It should suffice -- to refute HWSNBN's allegation here that I don't support my claims -- to simply quote him right back at him. I really don't need to say much more.
[Bart]: Sarin is classified as a weapon of mass destruction by the United Nations according to UN Resolution 687, and its production and stockpiling was outlawed by the Chemical Weapons Convention of 1993.
To be honest, while it is a prohibited agent, it's not all that good (and degrades fairly quickly).
Feel free to swallow a thimble full of Sarin. You will go from tapdancing to doing what we in the military nicknamed the "dying cockroach."
HWSNBN: "Beware! Look out! Al Kaheeda's developed flying eyedroppers, and is going to poison you all in your sleep!!! Run! Run!!! ... Ooooohhh. I think I peed my pants...."
Look, I'm not planning on cooking my ramen in an old Iraqi 155mm shell. As for HWSNBN, who knows what stoopidity he's capable of....
[Arne]: But it's hardly news that Saddam had Sarin (and even used it) pre-Gulf War.
And now the tap dancing move known as the misdirection. The question is not what Saddam had before the war, but rather what he kept in violation of the ceasefire after the war.
Not obvious anyone even knew these were there. As pointed up, lots of stuff could quite leasily have been lost or abandoned on battlefields. And as pointed out, I think the U.S. itself has also managed to misplace CW munitions.... 500 shells (not all even filled) out of tens of thousands may even be a comparable loss rate to what we had for plutonium in some of our processing plants.
[Arne]: No reports these are/were binaries. But even binaries are subject to degradation.
An actual point! Check out the post from the USA Today above where the sarin round the local terrorists attempted to blow up near our troops was a standard soviet binary round and the soldiers were not full exposed because the explosion failed to mix the precursors sufficiently to create actual sarin.
Not quite true. This is speculated to be the case, but here's perhaps a better account (see 5/16/2004 incident) of what happened (amongst other things, it was detonated by remote control by U.S. forces attempting to neutralise it).
As discussed in the report above, these are pre 1991 rounds of sarin and the military admits that they are still lethal....
Where? HWSNBN is hallucinating again.
[Arne]: On the contrary, the brief says pretty much the opposite.
This tap dance move is the simple denial of what is written.
All one needs to do is read the six bullets. Do I have to quote them again?
[HWSNBN]: Even at very low concentrations, sarin can be fatal. Death may follow in one minute after direct ingestion of about 0.01 milligram per kilogram of body weight if antidotes, typically atropine and pralidoxime, are not quickly administered...It is estimated that sarin is more than 500 times as toxic as cyanide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin
[HWSNBN]: Even if degraded so that only 100 rounds of sarin remain effective. At a liter or more per round, there is still enough sarin to murder thousands of people.
[Arne]: "Objection! Facts not in evidence..."
What facts? I posed a hypothesis based on the lethality of Sarin. Note the word "if."
To quote HWSNBN: "What facts?" ROFLMAO.....
[HWSNBN]: However, the recently disclosed report discusses a discovery of far more than the 35 liters reported by Duelfer before his team was withdrawn from Iraq in March 2004.
[Arne]: HWSNBN sees things that others don't see. Haldol can help alleviate that....
Try reading the report starting with the number 500...
HWSNBN should try quoting (and citing) anything he thinks is relevant.
[Arne]: Even Duelfer, talking about these shells, said they were consistent with being lost or discarded in the rapidly changing battlefront of the Iran/Iraq war.
Huh?
This is all Duelfer had to say in his report on the subject:
While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991.
"Stockpile". IIRC, Douelfer said that stray munitions had been found and would continue to be found, but that hardly negates the claim that the stockpiles had been destroyed.
He was obviously wrong.
Nope.
I have to go back to work now. The rest of arne's "rebuttals" are snarks like...
Irony is dead. HWSNBN manufactures "facts" that 'must be true' above out of thin air, and then complains that the WaPo isn't credible.
With enough mind-altering drugs, I might be able to follow that logic, but no thanks, that way lies madness....
"We can't tell you. Just trust us."
HWSNBN sees things we can't see. Remember that.
Yep.
Nope. HWSNBN sees things that others can't see again.
How can one respond to such reasoned brilliance?
By STFU and hanging one's head in shame?
Cheers,
Q: bart, are you saying that these munitions represented an imminent threat to the United States prior to the invasion of Iraq?
ReplyDeletebart said:
They were definitely an ongoing threat which was not going away.
So you agree that the threat was not imminent? And given that these munitions degrade over time, your claim that the threat was "not going away" is untrue.
Bart - you should consult Jane's to educate yourself as to what "degraded" means in this context before spewing your nonsense at such length. I am sure your GOP paymasters can be persuaded to fork out for some training of their contracted trolls.
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN starts quoting Freeperville(!):
ReplyDeleteC. The Camels
Will be provided by the Directory of General Military Intelligence.
... and the camel dung will be provided by HWSNBN.
Cheers,
Sona said, "Troop withdrawals from and cessation of air raids in Iraq really ought to be justified on grounds of illegality...."
ReplyDeleteAh, but Bartbarian does not accept that our invasion of a non-threatening sovereign nation was illegal, as we, in his view, apparently, have unilateral right to act as we choose against any other nation, merely by declaring them a danger, or by declaring ourselves the cavalry rushing to save the settlers.
And yes, Scott Ritter has been quite forceful and articulate in his discussion of Saddam's WMD, but then, his on-the-ground experience in Iraq does not support Li'l Butch's lies, so Bartbarian (and others) choose to ignore him.
Bart:
ReplyDeleteOnce again, here is my reasoning. The final form of sarin degrades into an inert form within weeks while the precursors kept separately in a binary shell can last for years.
If the captured materials are still hazardous as the report indicates, then the materials had to have been kept in binary form. They never would have lasted this long if they were in final form.
Well, I'm no chemical weapons expert, so I did some googling and couldn't find a definitive source to tell me that even degraded Sarin isn't "hazardous". Perhaps You can supply some expert source to support this claim.
FWIW, FAS has this to say about the subject:
When the Iraqis produced chemical munitions they appeared to adhere to a "make and use" regimen. Judging by the information Iraq gave the United Nations, later verified by on-site inspections, Iraq had poor product quality for their nerve agents. This low quality was likely due to a lack of purification. They had to get the agent to the front promptly or have it degrade in the munition. This problem would have been less severe in their mustard rounds because of less aggressive impurities. The problem of degradation inhibited their ability to deploy and employ nerve weapons but probably did not have a great effect on their use of mustard. Using their weapons soon after production probably worked well in the Iran-Iraq War, where the skies over Iraq were controlled by the Iraqis. Unfortunately for the Iraqis, loss of air control in the Gulf meant the weapons could never reach the front. The chemical munitions found in Iraq after the Gulf War contained badly deteriorated agents and a significant proportion was visibly leaking.
Binary munitions were once intended by the United States as a means of retaining a retaliatory capability without the necessity of an agent stockpile. The relatively nontoxic intermediates could be stored separately and not placed in proximity to one another until just before use. This requires some human engineering to ensure the munitions designs permit simple, rapid mating of the ingredient containers and production of the lethal agent en route to the target. The binary system was envisioned almost exclusively for application to the standard nerve agents. Although at least three types of binary munitions were planned, only one (155-mm artillery shell) was in production when the United States ended CW production. The Russians claim to have considered binary munitions but not produced any. The Iraqis had a small number of bastardized binary munitions in which some unfortunate individual was to pour one ingredient into the other from a Jerry can prior to use.
http://www.fas.org/cw/production.htm
So according to them, your hypothesis about Iraqi binary Sarin weapons is fiction.
Okay, this has just gotten silly.
ReplyDeleteBart, if you're going to propose 'hypotheticals', please preface them as such and *not* as established or proven fact. That way the rest of us will know ahead of time and *you* won't look like such a bloody idiot when its shot down.
Bart is claiming (is anyone surprised) that the existence of these rounds is reason to go to war.
ReplyDelete5 dead soldiers per round, and what, 50-75 injured per round? $400 million dollars per round. Perhaps 70 innocent people killed for each round. 250 soldiers deployed for three years per round.
I suppose he thinks those numbers are worth it, when he can't even provide evidence that those rounds' existence were known to Saddam.
Oh, and for those who listen to his blather: that the material used to make sarin might still be dangerous, or even lethal, means that you don't handle the chemicals carelessly, even if they're degraded. It doesn't mean they still pose a threat as weapons.
Final note: ain't no one ever said "there are no WMDs of any type anywhere in Iraq." It was accepted that there'd be the occasional find of an unused shell. The question was whether or not Iraq was still developing and producing those weapons, not whether there might be a few (or even a few hundred) shells that were pretty useless still lying around.
Sometime, google ricin incidents, sarin incidents, etc.
ReplyDeleteThe majority of instances of all such so-called WMDs are manufactured by US citizens. I do not know if it breaks down the same by volume, but it is interesting.
bart said...
ReplyDelete"This is the situation which faced President Bush in 2003.
Saddam possessed WMD which could slaughter thousands of civilians."
With 500 degraded shells that were found buried in the desert near the Iranian border?
Washington Post
The lawmakers pointed to an unclassified summary from a report by the National Ground Intelligence Center regarding 500 chemical munitions shells that had been buried near the Iranian border, and then long forgotten, by Iraqi troops during their eight-year war with Iran, which ended in 1988.
The U.S. military announced in 2004 in Iraq that several crates of the old shells had been uncovered and that they contained a blister agent that was no longer active. Neither the military nor the White House nor the CIA considered the shells to be evidence of what was alleged by the Bush administration to be a current Iraqi program to make chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.
Last night, intelligence officials reaffirmed that the shells were old and were not the suspected weapons of mass destruction sought in Iraq after the 2003 invasion.
USA Today
"Ewen Buchanan, a spokesman for U.N. weapons inspectors, said Iraq produced hundreds of tons of sarin in the 1980s. In the mid-1990s, under international pressure, Saddam's regime admitted to testing binary artillery shells filled with sarin.
According to a U.N. report last year, Iraq claimed that there was "no industrial-scale production" of the agent. During the early 1990s after the Persian Gulf War, Iraq emptied many of its sarin shells under U.N. supervision.
The sarin agent has a limited shelf life unless stored under carefully controlled conditions, Buchanan said."
I would say that burying the shells in the desert doesn't qualify as controlled conditions designed to extend shelf life.
In fact:
"The Iraqi Air Force officer that led DeBatto’s team to the site testified that he personally hid them from UNSCOM (the UN weapons inspection team) for over eight years by playing a “cat and mouse” game with “Scott Ritter” and “Hanz Blix”, during the 1990’s and leading up to the war in 2003. The bombs were buried in several hidden locations during the UN inspector’s visits and then dug up and moved to other, secret locations after the inspectors had left."
"Saddam was a mass murderer with a questionable grasp on reality."
I would certainly agree that Saddam killed a lot of people in his day. But I haven't and I doubt you have seen any psychological reports on his grasp of reality. And wouldn't that give him an excellent defense at his trial? Claiming insanity?
Saddam had a long history of using WMD.
Yes there are reports that he used them during the war with Iran and reportedly against the Kurds once. Supplied by the U.S. I might add.
"Saddam was in a state of low level war with the United States behind a shaky ceasefire."
Due to a non-U.N. approved no fly zone established by the U.S. and Britain that went on for a decade.
"Saddam was sheltering and training foreign terrorists to conduct suicide missions against US interests."
Not according to the 9/11 commission report. A bipartisan committee with no axes to grind established in part to investigate that very matter.
These foreign terrorist had attacked the United States on several occasions.
And when was that Bart? The 9/11 commission found no link to Iraq in either the attack on the USS Cole or the African embassy attacks.
These foreign terrorist groups were actively looking for WMD with which to attack the US.
And if they had found 500 useless shells buried and forgotten along the border with Iran? Which by the way they obviously didn't. Nor did the Air Force officer who hid and buried and dug up stuff and moved it around for years apparently give any to Al Qaida or other foreign terrorists.
You do not have to fill in too many dots to see the danger here.
The biggest danger I see is people hyping a story that is a non-story.
Maybe you all should suggest
ReplyDeletethat the world just starve this story of oxygen, since in order to be WMDs they must have had a specific manufacturing date. Too bad none of these were on Saddam's submitted inventory lists to the UN.
HWSNBN is wrong. Twice:
ReplyDeleteExcuse #3 - The Sarin and Mustard Gas Rounds are Degraded.
The mustard gas rounds are most certainly nearly useless. The material settles and turns into a sludge as time goes on.
Wrong culprit. Mustard gas is more stable than Sarin. Not saying it was still potent, but these had a better chance than the Sarin shells.
From here:
"IRAQ HAS A SIZEABLE CW STOCKPILE, AT LEAST SOME OF WHICH CAN SURVIVE SEVERAL YEARS OF STORAGE.
"IRAQ'S MUSTARD, THE CW AGENT MOST USED IN THE WAR WITH IRAN, IS QUITE STABLE; MUCH OF IT SHOULD REMAIN EFFECTIVE FOR SOME TIME.
"THE UNITARY FORM OF IRAQ'S SARIN - ITS PRINCIPAL NERVE AGENT - HAD A RELATIVELY SHORT SHELF LIFE DURING THE WAR WITH IRAN."
And another error:
Once again, here is my reasoning. The final form of sarin degrades into an inert form within weeks while the precursors kept separately in a binary shell can last for years.
If the captured materials are still hazardous as the report indicates, then the materials had to have been kept in binary form. They never would have lasted this long if they were in final form.
From the above link:
THE UNITARY FORM OF IRAQ'S SARIN - ITS PRINCIPAL NERVE AGENT - HAD A RELATIVELY SHORT SHELF LIFE DURING THE WAR WITH IRAN.
THE IRAQIS HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS PROBLEM:
THEY HAVE TRIED TO INCREASE UNITARY SARIN SHELF LIFE BY IMPROVING THE PURITY OF THE PRECURSOR CHEMICALS AND REFINING PRODUCTION PROCESSES.
THEY HAVE DEVELOPED AND TESTED BINARY NERVE AGENT ROUNDS FOR
ARTILLERY SHELLS AND BINARY MISSILE WARHEADS AS WELL.
CIA BELIEVES THAT BY NOW IRAQ HAS EITHER INCREASED THE SHELF LIFE OF UNITARY SARIN OR PRODUCED LARGE QUANTITIES OF BINARY MUNITIONS.
PROBLEMS WITH SHELF LIFE
DURING THE WAR WITH IRAN, IRAQ USED LARGE QUANTITIES OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAINST IRANIAN GROUND FORCES. THE PRINCIPLE AGENTS USED WERE THE BLISTER AGENT MUSTARD AND THE NONPERSISTENT NERVE AGENT SARIN. THE NONPERSISTENT NERVE AGENT TABUN AND THE PERSISTENT NERVE AGENT GF WERE ALSO USED.
DESPITE THE GENERAL SOPHISTICATION OF IRAQ'S CW PRODUCTION INFRASTRUCTURE, SOME OF IRAQ'S CHEMICAL AGENTS HAD A SHORT SHELF LIFE, MOSTLY OWING TO IMPURITIES IN THE PRECURSOR CHEMICALS. CIA BELIEVES THAT SOME SARIN HAD A SHELF LIFE OF ONLY A FEW WEEKS.
So, HWSNBN (may be) partially correct; but unitary Sarin, properly produced and stored, may have a longer shelf life. Not to say that what we found was any good.
. . .
CIA HOLDS THAT THE STOCKS OF SARIN MAY REMAIN VIABLE WELL BEYOND MARCH. CIA ANALYSTS BELIEVE THAT THE SHELF LIFE PROBLEM WAS ONLY TEMPORARY AND THAT THE IRAQIS CAN NOW PRODUCE UNITARY AGENTS OF SUFFICIENT QUALITY BY ADDING A STABILIZER OR IMPROVING THE PRODUCTION PROCESS.
* * * * *
As a humourous aside, saw this on the side of a Google search result screen:
Sponsored Links
Sarin
Fantastic prices on sarin
Buy & Sell today
www.ebay.ca
WTF?!?!?
From Arne Langsetmo at 7:16PM:
ReplyDelete"Not to say that what we found was any good."
This is the bit that needs to be repeated as often and as forcefully as possible: what we've found to date is old and effectively useless.
Those who accept the mere presence of such materials as justification enough for this disaster will ignore this point, but there's plenty of people out there who are still open to new information.
One thing that the paid troll does not explain to us is why the administration has not backed up these claims and little Ricky.
ReplyDeleteWhy is that?
If this "discovery" was really significant, our macho little commander would be adjusting his codpiece for a little strut in front of the cameras with uniforms, flags and marching bands.
Karl Rove is silent on little Ricky's assertions. That's not like him, being the divider he is.
No, they know this is nonsense, so they're going to let their noise machine spin this, hoping that people like our dishonest paid troll can get some of the base to actually believe this crap, while actually shaking their heads in embarrassment of how far little Ricky will go to affect change in his embarrasssing low poll numbers.
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteSo, HWSNBN (may be) partially correct; but unitary Sarin, properly produced and stored, may have a longer shelf life. Not to say that what we found was any good.
. . .
CIA HOLDS THAT THE STOCKS OF SARIN MAY REMAIN VIABLE WELL BEYOND MARCH. CIA ANALYSTS BELIEVE THAT THE SHELF LIFE PROBLEM WAS ONLY TEMPORARY AND THAT THE IRAQIS CAN NOW PRODUCE UNITARY AGENTS OF SUFFICIENT QUALITY BY ADDING A STABILIZER OR IMPROVING THE PRODUCTION PROCESS.
I would agree with the CIA if Saddam had continued to pursue manufacturing and research, but the indications are that he didn't after the 1991 war.
There is plenty of evidence of WMDs in Iraq. Besides the Santorum and Hoekstra report there is this:
ReplyDeleteWMD - Al Qaeda
and finally this smoking gun/crater:
Saddam nuclear tests
While I am still working my way through the comments in this thread, I have to stop and say thank you to Paul @ 3:39 PM. Well said, and I wholeheartedly agree.
ReplyDeleteAlso, hypatia, great comment. Have you read the post over at Hit & Run on this? (link)
From anonymous at 9:38PM:
ReplyDelete"There is plenty of evidence of WMDs in Iraq."
This is a joke, right? You're quoting a quote attributed to...Free Republic?
And a one-minute-two-second clip without any network attributation or context?
I repeat: is this supposed to be a joke?
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN is wrong. Twice:
Excuse #3 - The Sarin and Mustard Gas Rounds are Degraded.
The mustard gas rounds are most certainly nearly useless. The material settles and turns into a sludge as time goes on.
Wrong culprit. Mustard gas is more stable than Sarin. Not saying it was still potent, but these had a better chance than the Sarin shells.
I don't pretend to be an expert in the shelf life of mustard gas. This is the assertion of UN WMD Inspector Tim Trevan, who stated this last night on Hannity & Colmes on a video to which I linked earlier today.
"IRAQ HAS A SIZEABLE CW STOCKPILE, AT LEAST SOME OF WHICH CAN SURVIVE SEVERAL YEARS OF STORAGE.
"IRAQ'S MUSTARD, THE CW AGENT MOST USED IN THE WAR WITH IRAN, IS QUITE STABLE; MUCH OF IT SHOULD REMAIN EFFECTIVE FOR SOME TIME.
This was written over a decade ago. The mustard may have been good "for some time" at that time, but may not be good now. Once again, I am being conservative. If you want to allege that Saddam also had effective mustard gas stockpiles in further violation of the ceasefire, go ahead.
And another error:
Bart: Once again, here is my reasoning. The final form of sarin degrades into an inert form within weeks while the precursors kept separately in a binary shell can last for years.
If the captured materials are still hazardous as the report indicates, then the materials had to have been kept in binary form. They never would have lasted this long if they were in final form.
From the above link:
THE UNITARY FORM OF IRAQ'S SARIN - ITS PRINCIPAL NERVE AGENT - HAD A RELATIVELY SHORT SHELF LIFE DURING THE WAR WITH IRAN.
THE IRAQIS HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS PROBLEM:
THEY HAVE TRIED TO INCREASE UNITARY SARIN SHELF LIFE BY IMPROVING THE PURITY OF THE PRECURSOR CHEMICALS AND REFINING PRODUCTION PROCESSES.
THEY HAVE DEVELOPED AND TESTED BINARY NERVE AGENT ROUNDS FOR ARTILLERY SHELLS AND BINARY MISSILE WARHEADS AS WELL.
CIA BELIEVES THAT BY NOW IRAQ HAS EITHER INCREASED THE SHELF LIFE OF UNITARY SARIN OR PRODUCED LARGE QUANTITIES OF BINARY MUNITIONS.
So, HWSNBN (may be) partially correct; but unitary Sarin, properly produced and stored, may have a longer shelf life. Not to say that what we found was any good.
The scientists here seem to be guessing concerning whether Iraq was successful in increasing the shelf life of their unitary sarin. If that is the case, then the sarin which we have found is more, not less, likely to be effective if it includes the more stable unitary sarin.
As a humourous aside, saw this on the side of a Google search result screen:
Sponsored Links
Sarin
Fantastic prices on sarin
Buy & Sell today
www.ebay.ca
WTF?!?!?
:::heh:::
Good stuff.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteI agree with this entirely, but I think it's more that people like Hannity need a sense of personal vindication rather than seeing Bush himself vindicated. Their sense of self-esteem and purpose were derived from their participation in the Glorious Bush Movement and the Epic War of Civilizations. They were riding so high for a couple of years -- feeling so strong and purposeful as a result of their safe and vicarious warrior dances -- and then it all collapsed -- somewhat suddenly and completely -- in failure, disgrace, deceit and disaster.
I agree, except with the implication that Hannity (and those who think like him) sees that it has collapsed (other than, obviously observing the public's perception right now, although maybe you also meant that).
substantively, he sees it very differently. but I agree that what you have assessed is what drives a lot of continuing spin and belief (I also think the two are more correlated than people assume.)
Hannity is extreme. consistent with your monday post on right wing extremists, this needs to be exposed and turned into an ongoing national story with examples, to begin to effectively illustrate this reality. And to turn the far right's manipulative reliance (one example started here earlier today) upon rhetoric, distortions and mistakes as a weapon against their own credibility, trustworthiness, and willingess if not ability to properly assess the substantive issues.
But I think this defensive tendency is true with respect to many. it is also perhaps worsened by the fact that sometimes we equate our worth with our own "belief," heightened by the fact that the far right has managed to implicitly confuse policy perspective, with "belief."
(It is also one of the reasons why stating a harsh and effective case against the far right wing is very different than the more common harshly stated case. The latter tends to villify, name call, and in effect indirectly insult a great number of Americans who have been mislead on the facts, and really simply need to be better informed -- but who will instead respond negatively because it not only provokes such defensiveness, but also feeds the far right wing stereotype of liberals.)
gris lobo:
ReplyDeleteI would agree with the CIA if Saddam had continued to pursue manufacturing and research, but the indications are that he didn't after the 1991 war.
Oh, I agree. I don't think they managed much more. But I was just calling HWSNBN on his cluelessness WRT Sarin (and his blathering about how they must have had stocks of binaries because of the two week limit). Others have weighed in here as well, pointing out the actual state of Iraqi CW weaponry (which was pretty crude in 1991 and never got any better by all indications). But FWIW, I suspect even the best prepared unitary Srain stocks aren't good for 15 years.
And, point of fact is that all reliable reports of the weapons found haven't come up with any that are still functional (at least as far as the reports have stated). So HWSNBN is just making sh*te up again ... you know, "hypothesizing". Well, we could hypothesize that HWSNBN is an eedjit too ... and with more justification and support.
Cheers,
p.s., by the way, you had a great quote the other day. was virtually identical to what I have said repeatedly.
ReplyDeleteT]hey label the argument and the person making it "leftist" and "liberal" and - presto! - no more need to address the arguments or consider its substance because it’s all been shooed away with one fell swoop of name-calling cliches
this is an enormous part of the far right's motus operandi, and reall needs to be exposed as such, along with how manipulative, grotesquely misleading, and in effect anti democratic it is to to do.
still tryin to pimp this piece on the flagrant violation of the basic American principles of checks and balances on which our government and Constitution was founded, that I sent you the link to the other day. It quotes heavily ((towards the end) from your excellent December 17 piece, and right after, has a pretty good analysis of the constitutional issue that, most importantly, along with your blockquoted material, I think those that don't get or disagree with the issue may be able to understand a little better
ej said...
ReplyDelete...no new evidence that Saddam Hussein had stockpiled weapons of mass destruction on the eve of the U.S.-led invasion, as President Bush alleged in making the case for war, U.S. intelligence officials said Thursday....Knight Ridder
Ah, the Duelfer CIA team chimes in anonymously. It must be embarrassing to have your report exposed so badly over the past year.
First, the sole source of the Duelfer claim that Saddam destroyed his WMD, Hussein Kamal, was heard on a captured tape saying that Iraq lied to the UN inspectors:
At one point Hussein Kamel, Saddam's son-in-law and the man who was in charge of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction efforts can be heard on the tapes, speaking openly about hiding information from the U.N.
"We did not reveal all that we have," Kamel says in the meeting. "Not the type of weapons, not the volume of the materials we imported, not the volume of the production we told them about, not the volume of use. None of this was correct."
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/
Investigation/story?id=1616996
Now we find that 500 rounds of sarin and mustard gas have been found and, according to Rumsfeld today, continue to be found.
Duelfer has found only 35 rounds after his allegedly thorough and complete inspections.
Over 465 additional rounds hardly comports with the Duelfer admission that a few more stray rounds might be found.
And more continue to be found.
Instead of admitting that they were wrong again, the CIA is playing its usual anonymous leak sniping.
HWSNBN is still clueless:
ReplyDelete[HWSNBN]: The mustard gas rounds are most certainly nearly useless. The material settles and turns into a sludge as time goes on.
[Arne]: Wrong culprit. Mustard gas is more stable than Sarin. Not saying it was still potent, but these had a better chance than the Sarin shells.
I don't pretend to be an expert in the shelf life of mustard gas. This is the assertion of UN WMD Inspector Tim Trevan, who stated this last night on Hannity & Colmes on a video to which I linked earlier today.
So you're just cutting and pasting, eh? OK, just so we know....
"IRAQ HAS A SIZEABLE CW STOCKPILE, AT LEAST SOME OF WHICH CAN SURVIVE SEVERAL YEARS OF STORAGE.
"IRAQ'S MUSTARD, THE CW AGENT MOST USED IN THE WAR WITH IRAN, IS QUITE STABLE; MUCH OF IT SHOULD REMAIN EFFECTIVE FOR SOME TIME.
[HWSNBN]: This was written over a decade ago. The mustard may have been good "for some time" at that time, but may not be good now. Once again, I am being conservative. If you want to allege that Saddam also had effective mustard gas stockpiles in further violation of the ceasefire, go ahead.
Never said that. Matter of fact, I said the opposite. All I was pointing out was that your claim about relative Sarin and mustard gas shelf life wasn't correct. I agree that this report is over a decade old, about weapons state prior to Gulf War 1, and the chance of anything being usable, mustard or Sarin, is minimal (and in fact no workable weapons have been foound, AFAIK).
[Arne]: And another error:
[HWSNBN]: Once again, here is my reasoning. The final form of sarin degrades into an inert form within weeks while the precursors kept separately in a binary shell can last for years.
[HWNSBN]: If the captured materials are still hazardous as the report indicates, then the materials had to have been kept in binary form. They never would have lasted this long if they were in final form.
From the above link:
THE UNITARY FORM OF IRAQ'S SARIN - ITS PRINCIPAL NERVE AGENT - HAD A RELATIVELY SHORT SHELF LIFE DURING THE WAR WITH IRAN.
THE IRAQIS HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS PROBLEM:
THEY HAVE TRIED TO INCREASE UNITARY SARIN SHELF LIFE BY IMPROVING THE PURITY OF THE PRECURSOR CHEMICALS AND REFINING PRODUCTION PROCESSES.
THEY HAVE DEVELOPED AND TESTED BINARY NERVE AGENT ROUNDS FOR ARTILLERY SHELLS AND BINARY MISSILE WARHEADS AS WELL.
CIA BELIEVES THAT BY NOW IRAQ HAS EITHER INCREASED THE SHELF LIFE OF UNITARY SARIN OR PRODUCED LARGE QUANTITIES OF BINARY MUNITIONS.
[Arne]: So, HWSNBN (may be) partially correct; but unitary Sarin, properly produced and stored, may have a longer shelf life. Not to say that what we found was any good.
The scientists here seem to be guessing concerning whether Iraq was successful in increasing the shelf life of their unitary sarin. If that is the case, then the sarin which we have found is more, not less, likely to be effective if it includes the more stable unitary sarin.
True, they're guessing. But they aren't just blowing it out their a** like HWSNBN, Santorum, and Hoekstra. Nonetheless, no workable Sarin stocks have been found, AFAIK.
Cheers,
From Bart at 10:05PM:
ReplyDelete"Now we find that 500 rounds of sarin and mustard gas have been found and, according to Rumsfeld today, continue to be found."
Sure, they were found, sometime within the past 1,096 days (give or take) and under conditions not yet explained.
Oh, and let's not forget the central point: ITS ALL OVER 15 YEARS OLD AND LIKELY USELESS!
Geez.
HWSNBN just flat-out lies:
ReplyDeleteDuelfer has found only 35 rounds after his allegedly thorough and complete inspections.
Unless HWSNBN can come up with some supporting evidence to back up this claim, I think -- based on his track record of untrustworthiness -- we can simply ignore this assertion.
Cheers,
After Duelfer issued his report and closed up shop...
ReplyDeleteDuelfer and the multi-national Iraq Survey Group (ISG) (search), which also worked on the report, say it’s still not known whether Iraq moved weapons caches to Syria or other countries.
The ISG is still poring over thousands of official Baathist documents that have yet to be translated. Currently, some 900 linguists have been hired and are working in Qatar to get the job done.
About 35 to 50 “old, decayed” chemical and biological shells have been found in Iraq so far, all of which are said to have been produced in the 1980s.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/
0,2933,134625,00.html
the major:
ReplyDelete"What is it going to take to get you people to admit you were wrong.
Weapons. Of. Mass. Destruction. Found. In. Iraq."
Holy shit. This guy is so clueless it's not even funny. It's pathetic. He doesn't even know what he is arguing about anymore! Wrong about what? Tell me. Please. The war itself?
No, YOU tell me that you think these particular weapons were WHY THE UNITED STATES WENT TO WAR WITH IRAQ. Go ahead and say it. I want to hear it from you so I know that you aren't lying and that you actually believe this.
Then you can go cry in a corner about how everyone here makes you feel dumb.
Get a clue. The word "liberal" means nothing. I could be a Pat Buchanan conservative and you'd still think that makes me a liberal. This breed of wingnut has internalized the Bush administration's propoganda so much that they can't see the facts on the ground.
Keep in mind that no one here is denying the existence of "500 munitions in Iraq that contained degraded sarin or mustard nerve agents." We are arguing about the condition of those munitions, what decade they are from, and what that means in the context of the war. Santorum and Hannity seem to be the only people backing you up. Your own beloved administration disagrees with their analysis.
Don't come here and claim that the new, simplified version of your talking point, "admit that WMD were found," is the issue.
Re: "the major".
ReplyDeleteAre we going with the notion this guy is for real and should actually be responded to? Given the quality of his 'comments', one is left to wonder.
HWSNBN comes clean with his "sources":
ReplyDeleteAfter Duelfer issued his report and closed up shop...
Duelfer and the multi-national Iraq Survey Group (ISG) (search), which also worked on the report, say it’s still not known whether Iraq moved weapons caches to Syria or other countries.
The ISG is still poring over thousands of official Baathist documents that have yet to be translated. Currently, some 900 linguists have been hired and are working in Qatar to get the job done.
About 35 to 50 “old, decayed” chemical and biological shells have been found in Iraq so far, all of which are said to have been produced in the 1980s.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/
0,2933,134625,00.html
Ahhhh. Faux Snooze. I'd note these are their words ("About 35 to 50 'old, decayed' chemical and biological shells have been found in Iraq so far"), not Duelfer's. You know, considering that Duelfer's report is publicly available, that might have been a better source....
Here's one thing Duelfer said:
"Since MAy, 2004, ISG has recovered a total of 53 weapons from various sources and military units throughout Iraq. A preliminary field assessment indicates they are part of Iraq's pre-1991 stockpile. Variations in size, type, and agent fill raise the possibility that other, similar ronds remains at large."
These 53 identified CW weapons included 41 122mm Sarin rockets, and 10 155mm sulphur mustard artillery rounds (as well as one 155mm silphur mustard shell and one 152mm binary sarin shell attempted to be used as IEDs).
Later Duelfer says, concerning analysis of captured weapons depots:
"No CW munitions have been recovered to date, but a number of chemical capable rounds -- both empty and full -- are still being analyzed."
(no indication of number)
These "chemical-capable" rounds are probably also in the "500" supposed CWs being hawked by Santorum and company (they referred to "unfilled" rounds).
So HWSNBN's "35" is a piece'o'crap, and even the Faux Snooze range of "35-50" is short of the mark.
IOW, this latest "bombshell" is pretty much "old news"; it was likely mostly in the Duelfer Report.....
Here's HWSNBN's lie, once again: "Duelfer has found only 35 rounds after his allegedly thorough and complete inspections."
I'd note that Duelfer never claimed that he had made a "thorough and complete inspection[]". In fact, he stated the opposite. Here's Duelfer: "ISG technical experts fully evaluated less that one quarter of one percent of the over 10,000 weapons caches throughout Iraq." He explains what he did (which included inspecting around 10% of total weapons by number), why he did it, and what his conclusions were (no CWs outside of the few left over from pre-1991). Another lie by HWSNBN.
Cheers,
I suspect Santorum was chosen for this "revelation" as a sacrificial lamb/throw of the dice. If the media had bit, like they would have in 2003, and run with the story, it might have saved Santorum's electoral chances. If they don't buy it, DoD and the President disavow it and Santorum is no worse off than he was (toast).
ReplyDeleteIt's fairly smart strategy as far as that goes - Santorum is a kind of kamakazee for the administration now. He can take desperate measures they won't risk and perhaps something will pay off (at least in the tactical calculus).
arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN comes clean with his "sources":
After Duelfer issued his report and closed up shop...
Duelfer and the multi-national Iraq Survey Group (ISG) (search), which also worked on the report, say it’s still not known whether Iraq moved weapons caches to Syria or other countries.
The ISG is still poring over thousands of official Baathist documents that have yet to be translated. Currently, some 900 linguists have been hired and are working in Qatar to get the job done.
About 35 to 50 “old, decayed” chemical and biological shells have been found in Iraq so far, all of which are said to have been produced in the 1980s.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/
0,2933,134625,00.html
Ahhhh. Faux Snooze. I'd note these are their words ("About 35 to 50 'old, decayed' chemical and biological shells have been found in Iraq so far"), not Duelfer's.
Numnuts, that is Duelfer's statement given to Fox in an interview outside of the Senate Intel Committee chambers after he gave closed door testimony. I saw it myself.
If I knew about this place, I would have posted it here as I did the report of the 500 munitions because I know you patriots would be so pleased that your army rid the world of WMD...
Do you ever get tired of being made to look like an ass?
I'd note that Duelfer never claimed that he had made a "thorough and complete inspection[]". In fact, he stated the opposite.
I never said he did, which is why I did not put the words in quotes or italicize them with the rest of the quoted article passage.
I used that phrase in ridicule because it was used by one of AL's linked blogs to describe Duelfer's inspections in a futile attempt to defend the lie that there were no WMD.
Don't you read the links in support of the bilge you defend?
You obviously have not been reading my posts for content since I spent a number of posts making fun of the incomplete and ineffective inspections of the UN and Duelfer.
I am pleased that you inadvertently proved my point again.
Thanks for the assist.
I don't know about anyone else, but I stopped reading Bart's comments for content when he claimed, without evidence, that congressmen vote for laws that they believe to be illegal/unconstitutional. Yes, this isn't particularly fair of me, but does Bart actually expect to be taken seriously when he so blatantly speaks only to score points for his side? or routinely refers to anyone left of center as "Donkeys" for that matter?
ReplyDeleteMG
The Major said...
ReplyDelete"And those weopons of mass distruction are only the beggining. Soon they'll find the rest of them to. You know sadam hussein had nuclear weapons hidden in Iraq. When they find them you'll sure feel stupid."
Is that you George?
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteQuoting from a Faux Snooze article:
"About 35 to 50 'old, decayed' chemical and biological shells have been found in Iraq so far, all of which are said to have been produced in the 1980s."
Numnuts, that is Duelfer's statement given to Fox in an interview outside of the Senate Intel Committee chambers after he gave closed door testimony. I saw it myself.
HWSNBN sees lots of things. He gave a cite. It wasn't quoting Duelfer there. You'll pardon me, gentle readers, if I remain sceptical of the things that HWSNBN "sees"....
If I knew about this place, I would have posted it here as I did the report of the 500 munitions because I know you patriots would be so pleased that your army rid the world of WMD...
HWSNBN does admit to ignorance ... and to lack of even minimal competence with a search engine. Progress ... of a sort.
Do you ever get tired of being made to look like an ass?
How would I know? Maybe there is some subject matter that I could actual consult HWSNBN on where he might be expected to be a reasonably competent authority....
[Arne]: I'd note that Duelfer never claimed that he had made a "thorough and complete inspection[]". In fact, he stated the opposite.
I never said he did, which is why I did not put the words in quotes or italicize them with the rest of the quoted article passage.
The quote:
[HWSNBN]: "Duelfer has found only 35 rounds after his allegedly thorough and complete inspections."
Gentle readers, you be the judge. What was HWSNBN trying to convey here?
I used that phrase in ridicule because it was used by one of AL's linked blogs to describe Duelfer's inspections in a futile attempt to defend the lie that there were no WMD.
HWSNBN would have been a tad more honest if he had rather said "... alleged by leftist blogs..." (or whoever supposedly said that) -- and even more honest if he provided a cite to the source for this phrase of his. Methinks he got caught with toilet paper on his shoe.
Don't you read the links in support of the bilge you defend?
Sometimes. Sometime I don't need to, and sometime there's no time. If I do, and refer to them, I provide a cite. But I'm not the one here who's providing "bilge". That'd be the troll HWSNBN. As demonstrated quite well here, I might add. You know, like lying about what Duelfer said and what he found?
HWSNBN then berates me for allegedly not reading. Sorry to have to point it out, but I'm not the one that didn't bother to read the Duelfer Report. Scroll up and see who that was.
Say, BTW, anyone think that HWSNBN is getting just a tad snippy here? My, my, my....
Cheers,
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteBut FWIW, I suspect even the best prepared unitary Srain stocks aren't good for 15 years.
I agree. I worked at WSMR for several years doing temperature testing on US conventional rounds. And I was also the NBC NCO at several units that I was with.
I can't imagine Sarin lasting for 15 years buried in the sand with the repeated alternating heat and cold cycles.
If it had been stored in a temperature controlled warehouse it would last longer but even then I would question what shape it would be in after that length of time.
This just in from AP:
ReplyDeleteNew Intel Report Reignites Iraq Arms Fight
By KATHERINE SHRADER
ASSOCIATED PRESS
WASHINGTON (AP)
But intelligence officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the subject's sensitive nature, said the weapons were produced before the 1991 Gulf War and there is no evidence to date of chemical munitions manufactured since then. They said an assessment of the weapons concluded they are so degraded that they couldn't now be used as designed.
They probably would have been intended for chemical attacks during the Iran-Iraq War, said David Kay, who headed the U.S. weapons-hunting team in Iraq from 2003 until early 2004. He said experts on Iraq's chemical weapons are in "almost 100 percent agreement" that sarin nerve agent produced from the 1980s would no longer be dangerous.
"It is less toxic than most things that Americans have under their kitchen sink at this point," Kay said.
Prince Bart is enamored of Saddam's son-in-law's claims during a high-level Iraqi meeting caught on tape. But as most others have heard by now, there was not much of anything that could be believed when said anytime that Saddam might learn of it:
ReplyDelete"This constant stream of false reporting undoubtedly accounts for why many of Saddam's calculations on operational, strategic, and political issues made perfect sense to him. According to Aziz, "The people in the Military Industrial Commission were liars. They lied to you, and they lied to Saddam. They were always saying that they were producing or procuring special weapons so that they could get favors out of Saddam -- money, cars, everything -- but they were liars."
"...Members of the Military Industrial Commission were not the only liars. Bending the truth was particularly common among the most trusted members of Saddam's inner circle -- especially when negative news might reflect poorly on the teller's abilities or reputation. According to one former high-ranking Baath Party official, "Saddam had an idea about Iraq's conventional and potential unconventional capabilities, but never an accurate one because of the extensive lying occurring in that area. Many reports were falsified."
And his Bartness omits a curious quote from his own link:
One of the most dramatic moments in the 12 hours of recordings comes when Saddam predicts — during a meeting in the mid-1990s — a terrorist attack on the United States. "Terrorism is coming. I told the Americans a long time before Aug. 2 and told the British as well … that in the future there will be terrorism with weapons of mass destruction." Saddam goes on to say such attacks would be difficult to stop. "In the future, what would prevent a booby-trapped car causing a nuclear explosion in Washington or a germ or a chemical one?" But he adds that Iraq would never do such a thing. "This is coming, this story is coming but not from Iraq."
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeletePrince Bart is enamored of Saddam's son-in-law's claims during a high-level Iraqi meeting caught on tape. But as most others have heard by now, there was not much of anything that could be believed when said anytime that Saddam might learn of it:
"This constant stream of false reporting undoubtedly accounts for why many of Saddam's calculations on operational, strategic, and political issues made perfect sense to him. According to Aziz, "The people in the Military Industrial Commission were liars. They lied to you, and they lied to Saddam. They were always saying that they were producing or procuring special weapons so that they could get favors out of Saddam -- money, cars, everything -- but they were liars."
What does this have to do with the Military Industrial Commission fudging their reports to Saddam about the progress of ongoing WMD programs which Kamal lied to the UN about being halted?
Kamal and the rest of Iraq's disclosures to the UN concerning the WMD and WMD programs possessed by Iraq were made part of the public record and were available to Saddam and his subordinates for review long before this 1995 meeting.
Exactly why would Kamal put his life in danger by lying to Saddam about something which was public record?
There are several hours of translated tapes of Saddam's staff meetings where they exhaustively discuss what the UN knows and what Iraq's next moves will be. You can find several translations at:
http://www.intelligencesummit.org/
And his Bartness omits a curious quote from his own link:
One of the most dramatic moments in the 12 hours of recordings comes when Saddam predicts — during a meeting in the mid-1990s — a terrorist attack on the United States. "Terrorism is coming. I told the Americans a long time before Aug. 2 and told the British as well … that in the future there will be terrorism with weapons of mass destruction." Saddam goes on to say such attacks would be difficult to stop. "In the future, what would prevent a booby-trapped car causing a nuclear explosion in Washington or a germ or a chemical one?" But he adds that Iraq would never do such a thing. "This is coming, this story is coming but not from Iraq."
Saddam is speaking in rhetorically in the third person as Iraq. (This whack job must have been a barrel of laughs to work for).
All this statement says is that non Iraqi terrorists will attack the US with WMD and Iraq will not do this itself.
This statement does not admit or deny that Iraq will assist non-Iraqi terrorists in attacking the US with WMD.
However, Saddam's musing predicting a non Iraqi terrorist WMD attack on the US is very disturbing when we find from other captured Iraqi documents that Iraq was training non-Iraqi terrorists to commit suicide attacks against US interests and Iraq was the only source of WMD in the region.
However, you just continue with your Alfred E Neuman attitude which held sway in the 90s - What me worry?
From Bart at 12:28PM:
ReplyDelete"However, you just continue with your Alfred E Neuman attitude which held sway in the 90s - What me worry?"
Bart, I'm going to explain this very slowly and using simple words.
It isn't that no-one here isn't worried about terrorism. To the contrary, I'm sure many of us here are genuinely concerned (particularly those of us living here in New York City) and are taking what steps we can to minimize the impact on our lives of the paranoid hysteria the Administration and its fellows trade in.
That said, what we aren't all that concerned with is hearing any more justifications or rationalizations or excuses for the Iraqi expedition-turned-disaster. It has done nothing to secure our nation against further attacks, undermined our standing internationally, alienated allies precisely when we need them the most, and effectively given Bin Laden and his ilk a perfect recruiting tool as well as a training ground for their fighters.
We are equally unconcerned with the self-important declarations by the Senator from Pennsylvannia (although its presently an open question whether or not he's still a legal resident of the state) with respect to a small collection of munitions that are in no condition for use that contain chemical agents of equally little use. Using this as an excuse to hammer on the ISG or past weapon inspections, while perhaps giving you a momentary thrill, accomplishes nothing nor negates the reality that Iraq is collapsing before our eyes and taking our troops with it.
What is of concern to us here is the Administration's ongoing incompetence and the fact it has taken no practical steps to guard against another 9/11 attack. The TSA and DHS are a joke, port and cyberspace security continue to be lax, the NSA program is mired in scandal and of questionable worth, and Iraq adventure is grinding our armed forces down both numerically and morally.
In short, Bart, trotting out old transcripts of Hussein and 'translations' of memos whose authenticity has not been verified impresses no-one here and colors you as an apologist for the inexcusable. Continue to do so if that's what it takes to salve your soul, but don't be surprised when you're called on it.
bart: "Peter Hoekstra observed that only 15 rounds of sarin murdered approximately 5000 people in the 1988 bombing of the Kurd town of Halabja."
ReplyDeleteYes, Hoekstra said that. Trouble is, he's making shit up, and you're too ignorant to notice.
This is from testimony that was delivered before Congress: "The CW attack began early in the evening of March 16th, when a group of eight aircraft began dropping chemical bombs, and the chemical bombardment continued all night. According to Kurdish commanders on the scene, there were 14 aircraft sorties during the night, with seven to eight planes in each group, and they concentrated their attack on the city and all the roads leading out of Halabja. The chemical attacks continued until the 19th. Iraqi planes would attack for about 45 minutes and then, after they had gone, another group would appear 15 minutes later."
This sounds like more than two full days of almost continuous bombing, day and night, by 7-8 planes at a time. No matter how you slice those numbers, they add up to a lot more than "15 shells."
More on the subject of Hoekstra and Santorum's dishonesty.
ReplyDeleteSantorum shamelessly misquotes the intelligence document he's touting. That document (pdf) says this: "since 2003 Coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent."
Santorum doesn't like that word "degraded," so he erases it. Compare the above language to the following statement by Santorum: "Coalition forces have recovered more than 500 chemical weapons since 2003 -- these weapons contained mustard or sarin nerve agent."
Santorum's omission of that word ("degraded") is a lie, and he repeated that outright lie in an interview with Hewitt, where he blatantly misquotes the language in the intelligence memo (by omitting the word "degraded") even though he claims to be delivering a direct quote.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 12:28PM: "However, you just continue with your Alfred E Neuman attitude which held sway in the 90s - What me worry?"
Bart, I'm going to explain this very slowly and using simple words.
It isn't that no-one here isn't worried about terrorism. To the contrary, I'm sure many of us here are genuinely concerned (particularly those of us living here in New York City) and are taking what steps we can to minimize the impact on our lives of the paranoid hysteria the Administration and its fellows trade.
???
Let me try to get this straight. You are worried about being attacked again by al Qaeda, BUT you are doing your best to halt the actions taken by a "hysterically" worried Bush Administration to protect you.
Exactly what actions, if any, do you personally support to stop the next al Qaeda attack on your home in NYC before it happens? Remember, there are no "do overs" after an attack occurs, WMD or otherwise.
That said, what we aren't all that concerned with is hearing any more justifications or rationalizations or excuses for the Iraqi expedition-turned-disaster. It has done nothing to secure our nation against further attacks...
al Qaeda continues to pour nearly all of its resources into Iraq and they are being slaughtered.
At the same time, al Qaeda has been unable to launch another attack from the Middle East against our people around the world as they did from 1993 to 9/11.
Coincidence? I don't believe in them.
..undermined our standing internationally,
The French, Germans and Russians seem to have gotten over their fit of pique that we ignored them and took out their ally Saddam.
...alienated allies precisely when we need them the most,
Could have fooled me. The Euros were actively working with us to snatch and interrogate al Qaeda in their countries.
...and effectively given Bin Laden and his ilk a perfect recruiting tool as well as a training ground for their fighters.
I keep hearing this. Yet, where are all these new Jihadis? Check out this link for the military profile of the actual Jihadi who are trickling into Iraq to serve as suicide bomber fodder:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5257052
We are equally unconcerned with the self-important declarations by the Senator from Pennsylvannia (although its presently an open question whether or not he's still a legal resident of the state) with respect to a small collection of munitions that are in no condition for use that contain chemical agents of equally little use.
Let's make a deal...
Why don't you and your family all have a thimble full of this "useless" sarin.
If you are right, then you get the last laugh.
If you are wrong, then we have eliminated a genetic line of oblivious fools.
Do we have a deal?
What is of concern to us here is the Administration's ongoing incompetence and the fact it has taken no practical steps to guard against another 9/11 attack. The TSA and DHS are a joke
Really? Why don't you try to smuggle a weapon onto your next flight.
...port and cyberspace security continue to be lax,
We simply cannot inspect the millions of containers shipped into the US every year. If someone tells you we can, they are lying.
The ONLY way to stop terrorism in an open free market society is to gain intelligence to identify the enemy and his plans before the attacks can occur.
Which brings us to...
...the NSA program is mired in scandal and of questionable worth,
It is interesting that most of the al Qaeda we have prosecuted and convicted are all moving to determine if they were identified by the various intelligence gathering programs.
Among the disclosures to the enemy carried out by the NYT and its ilk, we can now add informing the enemy of our program to surveil international financial transactions used to break up the covert al Qaeda financial network.
When are these al Qaeda spies working as jounalists going to be hauled in front of a criminal grand jury???
In short, Bart, trotting out old transcripts of Hussein and 'translations' of memos whose authenticity has not been verified impresses no-one here...
So much more is the pity that you ignore the spoken and written admissions of the enemy itself about plots to kill Americans.
What me worry?
al Qaeda continues to pour nearly all of its resources into Iraq and they are being slaughtered.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, al Qaeda has been unable to launch another attack from the Middle East against our people around the world as they did from 1993 to 9/11.
I'm sure all those dead folks from Madrid and London are happy about that particular success story.
jukeboxgrad said...
ReplyDeletebart: "Peter Hoekstra observed that only 15 rounds of sarin murdered approximately 5000 people in the 1988 bombing of the Kurd town of Halabja."
Yes, Hoekstra said that. Trouble is, he's making shit up, and you're too ignorant to notice.
This is from testimony that was delivered before Congress: "The CW attack began early in the evening of March 16th, when a group of eight aircraft began dropping chemical bombs, and the chemical bombardment continued all night. According to Kurdish commanders on the scene, there were 14 aircraft sorties during the night, with seven to eight planes in each group, and they concentrated their attack on the city and all the roads leading out of Halabja. The chemical attacks continued until the 19th. Iraqi planes would attack for about 45 minutes and then, after they had gone, another group would appear 15 minutes later."
This sounds like more than two full days of almost continuous bombing, day and night, by 7-8 planes at a time. No matter how you slice those numbers, they add up to a lot more than "15 shells."
I also read this testimony and it does not distinguish between the types of bombardments - conventional explosives, sarin and mustard gas.
You and I do not know what the intelligence agencies have provided Hoekstra and his House intelligence committee on this subject in closed session.
However, the amount of sarin in 15 weapons of 1-2 liters apiece depending upon their size is more than enough to murder 5000 civilians packed into a town.
Take a look at the amounts necessary to cause death in the link I provided in my first post. You can also google "sarin lethality" and come up with reams of data. This is very nasty stuff.
We also do not know how this material was delivered.
If the sarin was sprayed like a crop duster spreads pesticide, a little sarin can go a long way.
If this was delivered by artillery shell or aircraft bomb, then the spread of the sarin would be limited to the location of the projectile and where the prevailing wind would carry it.
Farmers do not release their pesticide from a single location hoping it will cover the field. They use crop dusters to spread it out and maximize its effect.
Given that the Iraqis had uncontested air superiority and could linger over their targets, I would have sprayed this human pesticide. However, I do not know if they did this.
Finally, what Santorum did or did not say is a complete red herring. I am going by what the intelligence summary says. Let's stick to the subject at hand.
PhD9 said...
ReplyDeleteBart: al Qaeda continues to pour nearly all of its resources into Iraq and they are being slaughtered. At the same time, al Qaeda has been unable to launch another attack from the Middle East against our people around the world as they did from 1993 to 9/11.
I'm sure all those dead folks from Madrid and London are happy about that particular success story.
Both of those attacks were found to be by unassisted cells of local residents.
Once again, al Qaeda has been unable to project attacks from the ME internationally against US targets like they did between 1993 and 9/11.
They may be able to pull off another attack from their base in the Middle East at some point, but they have not been able to do so since we took the battle to their own territory.
Bart, do you have your own blog somewhere on the web?
ReplyDeleteI'd suggest, that if you don't, think about starting one and then perhaps people that want to read what you write will read it, and those of us that don't, won't have to page through your long winded Republican talking points.
Give the amount of spare time you must have, I can only assume that business is bad or you've become quite obsessed with this blog.
From Bart at 2:02PM:
ReplyDelete"Let me try to get this straight. You are worried about being attacked again by al Qaeda, BUT you are doing your best to halt the actions taken by a "hysterically" worried Bush Administration to protect you."
I'm not attempting to "halt" anything the Administration is doing. I am neither in a position nor inclined to do so. And I was referring to the atmosphere the Administration has created and milked since 9/11, which can best be described as 'hysterical paranoia'.
"Exactly what actions, if any, do you personally support to stop the next al Qaeda attack on your home in NYC before it happens? Remember, there are no "do overs" after an attack occurs, WMD or otherwise."
Again, this is not my job, nor am I in a position to undertake such action. In any case I have the upmost faith in Commissioner Bruno and his staff at NYC OEM.
And you are correct, there are no "do overs" after an attack, a lesson reinforced by the empty space at Ground Zero and one the Bush Administration should have learned *before* it reduced FEMA to worthless shell.
"At the same time, al Qaeda has been unable to launch another attack from the Middle East against our people around the world as they did from 1993 to 9/11. Coincidence? I don't believe in them."
I guess the fact there was no attack on US soil all during the Clinton Administration is testimony to its own actions then, eh? Guess this is another lesson the Bush Administration should have learned back when it started.
Just as it should have learned the gentle art of diplomacy, especially in light of President Bush's recent embarrassment-of-trip to Europe.
Your reasoning is getting farcical, Bart. But let's continue anyway.
"I keep hearing this. Yet, where are all these new Jihadis?"
I guess I shouldn't be surprised you can't wrap your head around how these Jihadists and new recruits (a) don't wear uniforms and (b) don't belong in a regular army and (c) get their experience, then by all accounts trickle out and set up new cells in other countries. Its called "asymmetric warfare", something not regularly studied by professional military outfits.
Oh, and your link is broken.
"Let's make a deal...Why don't you and your family all have a thimble full of this "useless" sarin."
Why don't we agree that I never said it was "useless", merely "likely useless". Until I hear actual expert testimony on the materials in question, I'm reserving judgment.
"If you are right, then you get the last laugh. If you are wrong, then we have eliminated a genetic line of oblivious fools."
That was neither funny nor called for, particularly as you've never actually answered any of my rebuttals directly.
"Really? Why don't you try to smuggle a weapon onto your next flight."
I know those who have. Its really quite embarrassing.
"We simply cannot inspect the millions of containers shipped into the US every year. If someone tells you we can, they are lying."
Read "Forewarned" by Michael Cherkasky, it suggests a very practical method to get around this difficulty.
"The ONLY way to stop terrorism in an open free market society is to gain intelligence to identify the enemy and his plans before the attacks can occur."
Odd, I thought the only way you have advocated for terrorism to be stopped is to fight 'them over there' before they come 'over here', or was that simply when Iraq was going well?
"Which brings us to...It is interesting that most of the al Qaeda we have prosecuted and convicted are all moving to determine if they were identified by the various intelligence gathering programs."
Odd again, as I don't recall a single Al Qaeda operative or cell actually being tried or found guilty who wasn't part of 9/11. Pray, enlighten us of these 'prosecutions and convictions'.
"Among the disclosures to the enemy carried out by the NYT and its ilk, we can now add informing the enemy of our program to surveil international financial transactions used to break up the covert al Qaeda financial network."
Brilliant, especially as I believe that was already underway under the Clinton Administration.
"When are these al Qaeda spies working as jounalists going to be hauled in front of a criminal grand jury???"
Odd once more, given the network is so diffuse and decentralized, even suggesting someone is an "al Qaeda spy" is something of a severe misnomier, or so any thinking person would conclude after studying the issue.
"So much more is the pity that you ignore the spoken and written admissions of the enemy itself about plots to kill Americans."
Yes, Bart, there are enemies out there plotting to kill Americans. And the sooner we actually get out of Iraq and start addressing the problem intelligently, the better.
At least you were honest enough to forego trying to defend Santorum or his current residency difficulties.
Heckuva job, Georgie and the Democratic and Republican members of our one party system: The War Party
ReplyDeleteState of Emergency Declared in Iraq
Curfew Imposed After Insurgents Block Roads, Fire on Forces in Baghdad
BAGHDAD, Iraq (June 23) -- The Iraqi government declared a state of emergency and imposed a curfew Friday after insurgents set up roadblocks in central Baghdad and fired on U.S. and Iraqi troops outside the heavily fortified Green Zone.
HWSNBN is totally clueless:
ReplyDeleteLet me try to get this straight. You are worried about being attacked again by al Qaeda, BUT you are doing your best to halt the actions taken by a "hysterically" worried Bush Administration to protect you.
Huh? In case HSWNBN hasn't noticed, the sane people are of the opinion that some of what Dubya has done has arguably worsened the situation ia a lot of ways (i.e. the war in Iraq), a fair bit of what he has done is ineffectual and expensive, both in terms of cost or liberties or both, and that Dubya hasn't done a lot of stuff that he could and should do, such as strengthening port security, funding programs for securing special nuclear materials in the former Soviet states, etc....
We've all pointed stuff like this out time and time again here, but as is usual, the troll HWSNBN doens't bother to even acknowledge that others are of a different mind than he on this kind of stuff. Thus his confusion here when it's pointed out yet again. His is a WOM ... a "write only mind".
Cheers,
FBI Alert!!! HWSNBN has al Qaedca contacts!:
ReplyDelete[yankeependragon]: That said, what we aren't all that concerned with is hearing any more justifications or rationalizations or excuses for the Iraqi expedition-turned-disaster. It has done nothing to secure our nation against further attacks...
al Qaeda continues to pour nearly all of its resources into Iraq and they are being slaughtered.
Wow. HWSNBN has the inside scoop on al Qaeda planning. Say hi to Osama from me, will you, Bart?, and tell him I said to FOAD....
Cheers,
HWSNBN throws out a "red herring":
ReplyDeleteLet's make a deal...
Why don't you and your family all have a thimble full of this "useless" sarin.
If you are right, then you get the last laugh.
If you are wrong, then we have eliminated a genetic line of oblivious fools.
Do we have a deal?
I'll make him a deal. He can sit there with one of these munitions, and I can come at him with an M1A1 Abrams but I'll forego the CBW suit and mask. Let's see who comes out on top (*geeez* gotta clean those treads again ... *sigh*).
Cheers,
HWSNBN is hallucinating again:
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting that most of the al Qaeda we have prosecuted and convicted are all moving to determine if they were identified by the various intelligence gathering programs.
Ummmm, what "al Qaeda" have we "prosecuted and convicted"? Need more than one dim-witted goof-ball to have the word "most" make any sense here....
Cheers,
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 2:02PM: "Exactly what actions, if any, do you personally support to stop the next al Qaeda attack on your home in NYC before it happens? Remember, there are no "do overs" after an attack occurs, WMD or otherwise."
Again, this is not my job, nor am I in a position to undertake such action.
Typical Donkey. Since you have no constructive alternative, let the Elephants do their job in peace.
Bart: "At the same time, al Qaeda has been unable to launch another attack from the Middle East against our people around the world as they did from 1993 to 9/11. Coincidence? I don't believe in them."
I guess the fact there was no attack on US soil all during the Clinton Administration is testimony to its own actions then, eh?
You forget the 1993 WTC attack and the LAX car bomb attack which was only thwarted because an observant customs officer though something looked wrong about the perps crossing from Canada.
Bart: "I keep hearing this. Yet, where are all these new Jihadis?"
I guess I shouldn't be surprised you can't wrap your head around how these Jihadists and new recruits (a) don't wear uniforms and (b) don't belong in a regular army and (c) get their experience, then by all accounts trickle out and set up new cells in other countries.
By what accounts?
Who has actually identified all these new cells?
Inquiring minds want to know...
Bart bart bart, same old Republican tripe. Clinton bad, Bush good. All evil comes from democrats, all good from republicans.
ReplyDeleteSuch utter bullshit and simplistic logic. I can imagine you winning trials by putting juries to sleep with your endless drivel.
Once again, please start your own blog and people that want to read Republican propaganda can go there or join you in a padded room watching Faux News.
Oh and I'm not a donkey or a large fat pachyderm.
bart, the donkey and elephant thing just sounds silly. It's not nearly as clever as you think it is.
ReplyDeleteWe know the mascots of the two major parties. Just say Democrat or Republican. Trust me, it will make you sound more professional.
Ok, back to the discussion...
From Bart at 5:30PM:
ReplyDelete"You forget the 1993 WTC attack and the LAX car bomb attack which was only thwarted because an observant customs officer though something looked wrong about the perps crossing from Canada."
I remain unconvinced the 1993 WTC attack was the work of Al Qaeda. Yes, Ramzi Yousef received advice from Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, and yes Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman reportedly had links (albeit informal ones) to the Al Qaeda network.
There exists no evidence however that either the cell nor the bombing were in any way directed or sanctioned by either Bin Laden or his immediate circle. If anything, this has underscored the danger the network poses when homegrown, autonomous cells get together like this.
As for the supposed LAX bomber, I have never seen any definitive information on the incident beyond the antecdotal story you've related.
In any case, my point remains.
Your earlier response of
"Typical Donkey. Since you have no constructive alternative, let the Elephants do their job in peace."
is pretty much what I've come to expect from you, indicating you have neither read nor absorbed my many earlier comments and responses. To be fair, you did admit you don't so much read as skim through comments here, which goes to show how serious you really are about these topics in the first place.
In other words, we've suggested plenty of alternatives. You yourself simply ignore them.
You close with
"By what accounts?"
A close friend I have working the Red Zone last I heard from her. That however was nearly a year ago, so I've no idea where she is presently or what she's up to.
"Who has actually identified all these new cells?"
Got me there. Like you and the 'discovered' chemical munititions, I'm going with the assumption (unproven by evidence but following a common sense train of thought) that this would these fighter's next move.
"Inquiring minds want to know..."
You've proven your 'inquiring mind' isn't, and doesn't, and isn't interested.
5:30 PM
bart: "I also read this testimony"
ReplyDeleteThat means I gave you too much credit when I decided you were merely ignorant, when you quoted Hoekstra's fictional account of what happened at Halubjah. You knew it was fictional, and touted it anyway, which makes you a liar.
"You and I do not know what the intelligence agencies have provided Hoekstra and his House intelligence committee on this subject in closed session."
English translation: "I'm going to believe anything someone like Hoekstra decides to feed me, even though he doesn't provide a shred of evidence, and even though what he says is contrary to sworn testimony delivered to Congress."
Once you decide the government is all-knowing, and it's proper for you to accept everything they tell you even when they don't offer a shred of proof, and even when it's contrary to clear proof, and even when they have a track record of telling lies, then why is there any point at all in pretending to embrace such quaint concepts as citizenship and democracy? Why not just choose a king?
"what Santorum did or did not say is a complete red herring"
English translation: "even though there is documented proof that Santorum has lied on this matter, I'm still going to treat him and his pal Hoekstra as credible sources, and accept all their assertions even when they don't offer a shred of proof."
Thanks for providing an excellent demonstration of someone who has a faith-based approach to politics. Shorter Bart: "I have faith in my government and I believe everything it says, no matter what, because they know more than I do."
By the way, Santorum isn't satisfied with Hoekstra's claim that 15 shells killed 5,000 people. Santorum says "three killed 5,000 people."
What's your explanation for why they can't even agree on the same phony story?
If tomorrow Santorum told you that one shell killed 5,000 people, would you believe that too?
Fox News is reporting that the bipartisan heads of the 9/11 commission plead with the NYT not to expose the intelligence gathering operation aimed at international financial transactions which led to the location of the al Qaeda perpetrator of the Bali bombings, but the NYT refused.
ReplyDeleteGreat job guys!
From Bart at 8:14PM:
ReplyDelete"Fox News is reporting that the bipartisan heads of the 9/11 commission plead with the NYT not to expose the intelligence gathering operation aimed at international financial transactions which led to the location of the al Qaeda perpetrator of the Bali bombings, but the NYT refused."
So what? To date all the NY Times has disclosed is that these investigations are going on. No specific details (so far as I am aware) nor methods and sources involved.
Desperate to change the subject here?
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 5:30PM:
Bart: "You forget the 1993 WTC attack and the LAX car bomb attack which was only thwarted because an observant customs officer though something looked wrong about the perps crossing from Canada."
I remain unconvinced the 1993 WTC attack was the work of Al Qaeda. Yes, Ramzi Yousef received advice from Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, and yes Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman reportedly had links (albeit informal ones) to the Al Qaeda network.
The 1993 attack appears to be a cooperative effort between Zawahiri's Egyptian Islamic Jihad and al Qaeda before they merged and Zawahiri became bin Laden's #2.
al Qeada is a loose network of a variety of Islamic fascist terror groups across the world with varying degrees of cooperation with bin Laden and his group of leaders.
As for the supposed LAX bomber, I have never seen any definitive information on the incident beyond the antecdotal story you've related.
Here is a pretty good summary by PBS:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/
frontline/shows/trail/inside/cron.html
Bart: "Typical Donkey. Since you have no constructive alternative, let the Elephants do their job in peace."
is pretty much what I've come to expect from you, indicating you have neither read nor absorbed my many earlier comments and responses.
Before making this observation, I asked you straight out what you would do to stop terrorist attacks before they happened and you replied that you didn't have to.
I'm sorry, but I am more than tired of Donkey politicians and their voters kibitzing from the sidelines during a war without suggesting any alternative ideas on how to win the war, as opposed to cutting and running from the fight.
Your statement that you didn't have to come up with constructive alternatives is an almost exact echo of what one of the Donkey leadership told a reporter a few months ago.
Put up or shut up.
Bart: "Who has actually identified all these new cells?"
Got me there. Like you and the 'discovered' chemical munititions, I'm going with the assumption (unproven by evidence but following a common sense train of thought) that this would these fighter's next move.
I am not assuming anything. I gave you a pdf of the original report and we have multiple sources of confirmation.
Where are similar eyes on findings of all these new jihadis? I have read wild ass guesses by a British think tank of 18,000 new jihadis. Where are they?
jukeboxgrad said...
ReplyDeletebart: "I also read this testimony"
That means I gave you too much credit when I decided you were merely ignorant, when you quoted Hoekstra's fictional account of what happened at Halubjah. You knew it was fictional, and touted it anyway, which makes you a liar.
Hero, as I posted, nothing in that public testimony states the number of sarin bombs (as opposed to conventional HE or mustard gas) used in this attack. For that, you would need Iraqi military sources.
Bart: "what Santorum did or did not say is a complete red herring"
English translation: "even though there is documented proof that Santorum has lied on this matter, I'm still going to treat him and his pal Hoekstra as credible sources, and accept all their assertions even when they don't offer a shred of proof."
Santorum is NOT the source of this report. You are attacking Santorum to avoid dealing with the reality of this report in classic red herring fashion.
yankee:
ReplyDeleteAre you saying the head of the 9/11 commission were lying to the NYT when they told them that blowing the cover off this program would endanger it?
The NYT described in detail the means, methods, capabilities and limits of this program:
The program is limited, government officials say, to tracing transactions of people suspected of having ties to Al Qaeda by reviewing records from the nerve center of the global banking industry, a Belgian cooperative that routes about $6 trillion daily between banks, brokerages, stock exchanges and other institutions. The records mostly involve wire transfers and other methods of moving money overseas and into and out of the United States. Most routine financial transactions confined to this country are not in the database....
Data from the Brussels-based banking consortium, formally known as the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication, has allowed officials from the C.I.A., the Federal Bureau of Investigation and other agencies to examine "tens of thousands" of financial transactions, Mr. Levey said.
While many of those transactions have occurred entirely on foreign soil, officials have also been keenly interested in international transfers of money by individuals, businesses, charities and other groups under suspicion inside the United States, officials said. A small fraction of Swift's records involve transactions entirely within this country, but Treasury officials said they were uncertain whether any had been examined...
A Crucial Gatekeeper
Swift's database provides a rich hunting ground for government investigators. Swift is a crucial gatekeeper, providing electronic instructions on how to transfer money among 7,800 financial institutions worldwide. The cooperative is owned by more than 2,200 organizations, and virtually every major commercial bank, as well as brokerage houses, fund managers and stock exchanges, uses its services. Swift routes more than 11 million transactions each day, most of them across borders.
The cooperative's message traffic allows investigators, for example, to track money from the Saudi bank account of a suspected terrorist to a mosque in New York. Starting with tips from intelligence reports about specific targets, agents search the database in what one official described as a "24-7" operation. Customers' names, bank account numbers and other identifying information can be retrieved, the officials said.
The data does not allow the government to track routine financial activity, like A.T.M. withdrawals, confined to this country, or to see bank balances, Treasury officials said. And the information is not provided in real time — Swift generally turns it over several weeks later. Because of privacy concerns and the potential for abuse, the government sought the data only for terrorism investigations and prohibited its use for tax fraud, drug trafficking or other inquiries, the officials said.
The NYT is not acting as a whistleblower. They are selling papers by selling out the nation to an enemy during a time of war.
The scumbag NYT editor is so confident in his right to publish this story that he has his administrative assistant telling people he is on "vacation."
I have joined an email campaign which started in the blogoshere to write Justice to investigate and prosecute these people and to write the editors of these papers expressing my absolute disgust at their selling out their country to sell papers.
It is long past time to take the press to task for what can most charitably be called gross recklessness which has crossed into criminal conduct and maybe even treason.
From Bart at 8:39PM:
ReplyDelete"Before making this observation, I asked you straight out what you would do to stop terrorist attacks before they happened and you replied that you didn't have to."
From Bart at 2:02PM:
"Exactly what actions, if any, do you personally support to stop the next al Qaeda attack on your home in NYC before it happens? Remember, there are no "do overs" after an attack occurs, WMD or otherwise."
Hmm. I'll grant my initial reading of the original question was slightly off. Could it be I'd already answered this same question, several times over, and my answer this time was basically to affirm I'm confident in the preparedness of the City?
"I'm sorry, but I am more than tired of Donkey politicians and their voters kibitzing from the sidelines during a war without suggesting any alternative ideas on how to win the war, as opposed to cutting and running from the fight."
There are ideas aplenty amongst the Democrats. The fact there isn't a single universally accepted plan on the other side at this point is no indication of weakness or lack of ideas, merely that we're more open to facts on the ground.
Your side however has only one: lie (to everyone about everything) and (leave our troops to) die.
"Put up or shut up."
We have, and you have ignored it.
"I am not assuming anything. I gave you a pdf of the original report and we have multiple sources of confirmation."
A link that is broken, and therefore immediately suspect. Furthermore, name these 'multiple sources', please.
Incidentially, please explain why it is incumbent upon those of us who offer legitimate criticism of the Administration's conduct, particularly when we who have neither influence nor standing with the same, to offer plans to get them out of the messes they've created?
From Bart at 9:06PM:
ReplyDelete"Are you saying the head of the 9/11 commission were lying to the NYT when they told them that blowing the cover off this program would endanger it?"
Perhaps not lying in the sense of deliberately making false statements, but in the sense of exaggerating the 'damage' this story did?
The article is sufficiently general in both methods employed and what institutions are involved I see little, if any damage it might have caused.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 2:02PM: "I'm sorry, but I am more than tired of Donkey politicians and their voters kibitzing from the sidelines during a war without suggesting any alternative ideas on how to win the war, as opposed to cutting and running from the fight."
There are ideas aplenty amongst the Democrats. The fact there isn't a single universally accepted plan on the other side at this point is no indication of weakness or lack of ideas, merely that we're more open to facts on the ground.
Seriously, let's stop the partisan sniping for the moment.
What plans have the Dems offered which are different from what the White House is already doing to win the war?
No matter how they spin it, withdrawal from the battle has never won a war.
The Dems are not stupid. They have a great deal to offer to winning the war if they put their minds to it. It infuriates me no end that the great party of FDR, Truman and Kennedy is putting it efforts into losing the war rather than contributing their talents to winning the war.
I hate this divided country. We are all Americans. In a time of war, we are supposed to unite and leave our squabbles at the shoreline.
I am more than open to any good faith suggestion how better to fight and win the war. I don't care whether the idea comes from a Democrat, Green or Wiccan.
What I cannot and can never accept is are suggestions how best to surrender. In the life and death struggle of war, losing is never ever an option.
[Iraq's WMD]
ReplyDelete"UNSCOM in 1998 discovered that in 1996 Iraq had produced fresh bombs laden with mustard gas."
"The 2002 CRS report also noted that four tons of growth media for biological agents remained unaccounted for in Iraq." [...]
ka-bar,
A withdrawal timetable is going to be determined in consultation with the new Iraqi government, according to their military capability. Until the Iraqi's themselves can take over, US troops are there to provide security.
BTW, Rep. Murtha is talking about redeploying US troops "over the horizon" to Okinawa, Japan, where for many years the Japanese people have been asking us to leave the soon to be closed base, which is 4000 miles away from Iraq.
From Bart at 11:54PM:
ReplyDelete"What plans have the Dems offered which are different from what the White House is already doing to win the war?"
Even though you appear simply unable to grasp this is a 'war' of ideas, one that cannot be won by force of arms alone, I'll try to answer this anyway.
There are two components to 'winning' this war: improving our moral/ideological stance, and making practical improvements to our nation's security.
The latter is what gets the most attention, mainly because its 'easier'. The various proposals offered boil down to the following components:
1. Greatly increase funding to First Responders and domestic preparedness.
2. Rationalize the providing of Federal funding on this so those locations most at risk/most likely to be attack will receive necessary funding.
3. Re-invigorate DHS, both by strengthening the office of the Secretary of Homeland Security (especially in budgetary and operational authority) and increase its funding to levels comparable to the Department of Defense.
4. Remove FEMA from the DHS bureaucracy and return it to its original Cabinet-level position and budget.
5. Institute a tighter port security provisions ("Forewarned" by Michael Cherkasky offers the best option on this).
6. Give private industry clear security guidelines (both physical and cyberspace) that must be met by specific target dates or face Federal sanctions, but offer Federal assistance to help meet them.
7. Direct the Department of Defense to improve and expand the training of its Civil Affairs functions in all service branches, and expand its foreign language specialties and pool of translators (this will likely require the voiding of the anti-gay policies in all Service branches).
Improving our 'ideological/moral' stance will require less visible, ironically more telling actions:
1. Restore and expand funding to USIA, particularly new and intense outreach programs to the Middle East and Central Asia.
2. Make a 'no-torture/no-rendition' policy an absolute and make this public knowledge.
3. Reduce both public support and aid to overseas regimes that practice and legalize torture and social repression, and work to improve contacts with reform groups throughout the Middle East and Central Asia, treating them as equal partners.
4. Encourage and expand 'visiting scholars' and student exchange programs in universities.
5. Expand Federal assistance available to students in university in foreign language and anthropology programs, perhaps with some provision whereby those students will enter government service after graduation.
6. Contact and consult with academics who have shown in-depth expertise and experience in specific regions under review for possible military action.
7. Improve US development aid so economic development is seen at all levels of society, not simply at the topmost tier.
Now, will any of this *definitely* end the threat of Islamic radicalism or terrorism in general? No. The only way to accomplish that would be to completely depopulate the Middle East and Central Asia.
The best that can be hoped for without resorting to outright genocide (the LGF's preferred option) is to make it clear the United States both respects and honors other cultures and does NOT seek to take over the rest of the world and can actually help improve their homelands. In this way we 'drain the swamp' that feeds this radicalism both economically, philosophically, and morally.
At the same time, we've secured our borders as best we can without turning the US into a closed society of paranoid hysterics, and ensured our military is better equipt and able to operate overseas without the cultural or linguistic shortcomings we're seeing now.
Bart concludes with
"What I cannot and can never accept is are suggestions how best to surrender. In the life and death struggle of war, losing is never ever an option."
We've already lost in Iraq, Bart. Its in the throes of a low-intensity, multi-party civil war, the infrastructure is in worse shape than before the invasion, infant mortality is lower than before the invasion, the economy is turning into a cryptonomy, and liberal democratic principles are being buried under daily violence and chaos.
Keeping our troops in there is accomplishing nothing but getting them killed and ensuring this civil war continues indefinitely. The assumptions and reasons for it were flawed from the start, that much has been shown by the last three years.
Its long past time for our troops to be evacuated and to let the Iraqis work out what country they want for themselves.
If however you yourself feel 'winning' there is so important, I suggest you sign up again and head back over. I'm sure the US Army would love to see one of its vets back in service. Heck, they might even make a recruitment poster out of you.
Otherwise, please just admit it isn't worth more lives and leave the tired rhetoric at the door. Its getting embarrassing.
Bart, nice job dodging my very simple and relevant question: if tomorrow Santorum (and/or Hoekstra) told you that one shell killed 5,000 people, would you believe that too?
ReplyDeleteBecause Santorum claimed that three shells killed 5,000 people, and this is contrary to sworn testimony before Congress (which indicated that 5,000 people were killed by an aerial bombardment which lasted well over 48 hours), and you seem to think that Santorum is something other than a liar.
"nothing in that public testimony states the number of sarin bombs (as opposed to conventional HE or mustard gas)"
Nice job making a statement which is completely irrelevant.
The public testimony clearly indicates that what killed 5,000 people was over 48 hours of continuous aerial bombardment with multiple chemical weapons. Please explain how you reconcile this testimony with Santorum's claim that 5,000 people were killed by 3 shells.
"Santorum is NOT the source of this report."
I didn't say he was. What I said is that he blatantly misquoted the report, on multiple occasions. Nice job dodging that issue, too.
I don't trust a liar, and I don't trust someone who trusts a liar. That would be you.
yankeependragon,
ReplyDelete"We've already lost in Iraq, Bart. Its in the throes of a low-intensity, multi-party civil war, the infrastructure is in worse shape than before the invasion, infant mortality is lower than before the invasion, the economy is turning into a cryptonomy, and liberal democratic principles are being buried under daily violence and chaos."
You're wrong, take it from Mr. Zarqawi himself:
[gulfnews.com]
"As an overall picture, time has been an element in affecting negatively the forces of the occupying countries, due to the losses they sustain economically in human lives, which are increasing with time. However, here in Iraq, time is now beginning to be of service to the American forces and harmful to the resistance for the following reasons:
1) By allowing the American forces to form the forces of the National Guard, to reinforce them and enable them to undertake military operations against the resistance.
2) By undertaking massive arrest operations, invading regions that have an impact on the resistance, and hence causing the resistance to lose many of its elements.
3) By undertaking a media campaign against the resistance resulting in weakening its influence inside the country and presenting its work as harmful to the population rather than being beneficial to the population.
4) By tightening the resistance's financial outlets, restricting its moral options and by confiscating its ammunition and weapons.
5) By creating a big division among the ranks of the resistance and jeopardising its attack operations, it has weakened its influence and internal support of its elements, thus resulting in a decline of the resistance's assaults.
6) By allowing an increase in the number of countries and elements supporting the occupation or at least allowing to become neutral in their stand toward us in contrast to their previous stand or refusal of the occupation.
7) By taking advantage of the resistance's mistakes and magnifying them in order to misinform."
[452 U.S. and coalition raids]
"WASHINGTON | U.S. officials hope that the exposure of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi’s radical network through hundreds of raids across Iraq will help them eliminate key tentacles of al-Qaida."
Last year, it was Mr. Zarqawi's stated goal to provoke a civil war by attacking the Shi'a. This tactic actually did not work, because for the most part Shi'a clerics called for restraint instead of violence.
[scoop.co.nz]
"Zarqawi wanted to put Iraq in the civil war by encouraging class distinction there. Although death of Zarqawi will not totally eliminate the rebellious activities there yet it is expected to lessen it. It can be a main factor for reducing the possibilities of civil war in Iraq."
If you're not already acquainted with the term "useful idiot" by now, you should be, because just as the tide is turning against ALQ in Iraq here you are still reciting ALQ talking points from last year suggesting we've lost and its time for US forces to run away.
Bart is so persistent on this point because you plainly have it all wrong. Instead of relying on Rep. Murtha and Sen. Kerry to do your thinking for you based on their personal political goals, you should educate yourself. Unbelievable...
From f.l.y. at 1:19PM:
ReplyDelete"Bart is so persistent on this point because you plainly have it all wrong. Instead of relying on Rep. Murtha and Sen. Kerry to do your thinking for you based on their personal political goals, you should educate yourself. Unbelievable..."
The many points you raise, while theoretically legitimate, address only Iraq. I was addressing the larger 'war' we are supposedly engaged in.
Whatever the situation in Iraq, which I am unconvinced is turning in anyone's favor save possible Tehran's, the larger problem remains that the US standing and stature has been badly undermined by the policies pursued by the Bush Administration. This isn't a case of getting everyone to like us, but rather of failing to counter the 'spin' put on the US by Bin Laden and his ilk; invading countries that have not attacked us for reasons that were laughable in the first place and legitimizing torture only convinces a lot of fence-sitters around the world that it is the US that is the rogue nation, not Iraq or North Korea or Iran or anyone else we claim is a threat.
I therefore submit that it is you (Frelling Lazy Yotz) and Bart who have it wrong, both on what this 'war' is about and what needs to be done.
Of course, there's always the genocide option, but I haven't heard either of you advocate that yet.
I'd like to congratulate Bart and the Frelling Lazy Yotz on successfully redirecting the thread from Santorum's latest embarrassment to 'what it will take to win'...although they really should try to agree on which war they're talking about: Iraq or the GWOT.
ReplyDeleteyankeependragon,
ReplyDelete"The many points you raise, while theoretically legitimate, address only Iraq."
No kidding. The hidden Iraqi WMD question remains open, so the sooner we pull out, the less opportunity we will have to discover the large numbers of weapons and precursors still unaccounted for. You claim to be concerned about domestic security, don't you think it would therefore be a good idea to track down and destroy as much of this stuff as we can?
ka-bar,
Murtha is the guy that called for US troops to withdraw from Somalia in 1993 that, according to the 9/11 Commission, resulted in a disaster that set an example of lack of US will for Bin Laden to capitalize on for years to come:
[9/11 Commission Report, Page 48]
"In August 1996, Bin Ladin had issued his own self-styled fatwa calling on Muslims to drive American soldiers out of Saudi Arabia. The long, disjointed document condemned the Saudi monarchy for allowing the presence of an army of infidels in a land with the sites most sacred to Islam, and celebrated recent suicide bombings of American military facilities in the Kingdom. It praised the 1983 suicide bombing in Beirut that killed 241 U.S. Marines, the 1992 bombing in Aden, and especially the 1993 firefight in Somalia after which the United States "left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you."
"This was good for a laugh"
I realize this is asking a lot, but Bush critics should take a serious look at the 9/11 report and the history of ALQ in Iraq before jumping on Murtha's political bandwagon.
From the Frelling Lazy Yotz at 3:49PM:
ReplyDelete"You claim to be concerned about domestic security, don't you think it would therefore be a good idea to track down and destroy as much of this stuff as we can?"
Oh, absolutely. And considering there is far, far more of it just sitting around in Russia and Central Asia, plus Pakistan is busy running a nuclear black market of its own, wouldn't our time and effort be better spent *there* than reducing Iraq to rubble and chaos.
"Murtha is the guy that called for US troops to withdraw from Somalia in 1993 that, according to the 9/11 Commission, resulted in a disaster that set an example of lack of US will for Bin Laden to capitalize on for years to come:"
So you are supporting nation building as a legitimate use of US resources? And, incidentially, wasn't the demand for our withdrawl from Solmalia a bi-partisan venture?
"I realize this is asking a lot, but Bush critics should take a serious look at the 9/11 report and the history of ALQ in Iraq before jumping on Murtha's political bandwagon."
I realize this is asking entirely *too* much, but those who want to "stay the course" should take a serious look at precisely what is happening in Iraq, to our troops, what this mission (supposedly "accomplished") is supposed to accomplish, and what kind of enemy we have before us...doing so before jumping on the Administration's bandwagon, that is.
Alternately, they could just put their money where their rhetoric is (I *don't* want to know where their mouths have been) and sign up to fight them 'over there'.
But then, that would mean they have the courage of their convictions, wouldn't it?
From the Frelling Lazy Yotz at 3:49PM:
ReplyDelete"You claim to be concerned about domestic security, don't you think it would therefore be a good idea to track down and destroy as much of this stuff as we can?"
Oh, absolutely. And considering there is far, far more of it just sitting around in Russia and Central Asia, plus Pakistan is busy running a nuclear black market of its own, wouldn't our time and effort be better spent *there* than reducing Iraq to rubble and chaos.
"Murtha is the guy that called for US troops to withdraw from Somalia in 1993 that, according to the 9/11 Commission, resulted in a disaster that set an example of lack of US will for Bin Laden to capitalize on for years to come:"
So you are supporting nation building as a legitimate use of US resources? And, incidentially, wasn't the demand for our withdrawl from Solmalia a bi-partisan venture?
"I realize this is asking a lot, but Bush critics should take a serious look at the 9/11 report and the history of ALQ in Iraq before jumping on Murtha's political bandwagon."
I realize this is asking entirely *too* much, but those who want to "stay the course" should take a serious look at precisely what is happening in Iraq, to our troops, what this mission (supposedly "accomplished") is supposed to accomplish, and what kind of enemy we have before us...doing so before jumping on the Administration's bandwagon, that is.
Alternately, they could just put their money where their rhetoric is (I *don't* want to know where their mouths have been) and sign up to fight them 'over there'.
But then, that would mean they have the courage of their convictions, wouldn't it? And courage seems to be a virtue often lacking in modern 'conserviatives'.
My apologies for the double post.
ReplyDeleteyankeependragon,
ReplyDeleteI like how you are resorting to childish name calling, that sure makes your argument much more compelling... Anyway, take a look at the stated goals for Iraq that have all been accomplished so far:
1) Remove threat of Iraqi WMD programs after 12 years of failed diplomacy.
Check.
2) Free 25 million people from a mad dictator.
Check.
3) Eliminate foreign terrorist Al-Zarqawi and destroy his network.
Check.
4) Help Iraqi's set up their own government, the first democracy in the ME.
Check.
5) Maintain a US presence in the heart of the ME, from which further counter terrorism action can be taken as needed.
Check.
6) Coordinate withdrawal of US forces with Iraqi government according to their security needs.
Check.
Since the Iraqi government has been fully formed for only a few weeks, it would be totally foolish to "cut and run" now, instead of phasing out over the next few years as the Iraqi's themselves have asked us to do.
BTW, don't worry about double posting there, it's not like other people here are immature enough to call you a "Frelling Lazy Yotz" or anything...
From f.l.y. (who is more than free to explain what these silly initials stand for) at 5:38PM:
ReplyDelete"Anyway, take a look at the stated goals for Iraq that have all been accomplished so far:"
1. Given it has essentially been verified there never was any threat in the first place, I suppose we can check this one off.
2. Given the country is now in the throes of a low-level, multi-faction civil war and the infrastructure of the country is barely a shell of its pre-invasion self, I suspect there are some Iraqis who are almost longing for the days of Saddam and reliable services. In other words, half-check.
3. The late Al-Zarqawi and his 'terror network' were never among the stated reasons for this little expedition, more of a happy accident. No check there.
4. Given this also wasn't among the original reasons given for the invasion (at least not until after the WMD excuse fell through), one could only state our 'help' to the Iraqis has amounted to a series of artificial timelines and milestones, ones driven more by American *domestic* political concerns than Iraqi ones. The result has been a constitution that barely ascribes to Western liberal republicansim and which has been summarily rejected by a third of the population. Oh, and Israel is the first democracy in the Middle East; what we're seeing form up in Iraq is something only marginally democratic.
5. This most definitely wasn't among the justifications for the march on Baghdad, and I'm at a loss as to how making a sizable portion of our deployable ground forces a readily-available target to ever radical and two-bit bomber between the eastern Med and the Indian Ocean in any way minimizes the overall threat.
6. Now you're just being silly. Didn't you hear the Vice President recently? We don't *dare* redeploy our forces lest all those new terrorists who got their start in Iraq follow our troops back here. Plus, I don't recall any mention in the original AUMF or the justification for the invasion involving helping Iraq rebuild its army.
The f.l.y. continues with
"Since the Iraqi government has been fully formed for only a few weeks, it would be totally foolish to "cut and run" now, instead of phasing out over the next few years as the Iraqi's themselves have asked us to do."
I'd refer you back to point six, but I doubt repeating the obvious would help here. Suffice it to say if that were ever the plan, even an Administration as inept as this one would have been quick to trumpet it. I'll chalk this one up to wishful thinking.
Six tries, six misses. You wouldn't happen to post under a different name here, would you? You seem to shooting a lot of blanks here.
yankeependragon,
ReplyDeleteIf only you would research the topic you are writing about:
[Colon Powell remarks - UNSC 2/5/03]
"Now let me add one other fact. We asked a friendly security service to approach Baghdad about extraditing Zarqawi and providing information about him and his close associates. This service contacted Iraqi officials twice and we passed details that should have made it easy to find Zarqawi. The network remains in Baghdad. Zarqawi still remains at large, to come and go."
You seem like a smart person, the facts are available.
Bart and f.y.i – did you watch Olberman referring to 15-18 year old WMDs discovered in Iraq as serious enough to cause a rug burn?
ReplyDeleteDo drop that Zarkawi mantra – he was a bit player even if it took 1000lb of ammunition to kill him as events subsequent to his death demonstrated. Ever wondered why he was not taken captive? Perhaps he was not mentally deranged enough to yield valuable information even when subjected to “childlike” treatment.
sona,
ReplyDeleteUpthread I link to an article that discusses the Iraqi WMD's:
"UNSCOM in 1998 discovered that in 1996 Iraq had produced fresh bombs laden with mustard gas."
From f.l.y. at 10:33PM:
ReplyDelete"If only you would research the topic you are writing about:"
Good heavens! You're right! Zarqawi received a three sentence mention by Former Secretary Powell at the UN. Amid all the other mis-statements and exaggerations, he actually *mentioned* the wannabe.
I nevertheless don't recall anyone mentioning him, before or after, as an actual reason for the invasion. I somehow doubt the 10,000s killed and wounded since then make an acceptable trade-off for just Zarqawi.
yankeependragon,
ReplyDelete"Good heavens! You're right! Zarqawi received a three sentence mention by Former Secretary Powell at the UN. Amid all the other mis-statements and exaggerations, he actually *mentioned* the wannabe."
If you had simply looked at the transcript I linked to, you would know that Zarqawi is mentioned in over 20 instances, about 1/5 of Mr. Powell's remarks, including the fact that at the time Saddam Hussein was sheltering Mr. Zarqawi and members of his network from international efforts to arrest them for murdering an American diplomat in Jordan.
Thanks for further establishing my point, which is that once again you didn't bother to expend the three or four minutes it might have taken you to research the topic yourself [using the link provided] before writing about it further.
BTW, if you are interested in what might result from Sen. Kerry's "cut and run" strategy for Iraq, you might want to study current events in Somalia 13 years after Rep. Murtha urged President Clinton to "cut and run" from the situation there:
[SomaliNet]
"The new Somali Islamist group chief has been accused by the US of having Al-Qaeda ties. On Saturday the Islamic Court Alliance elected a new leader, Sheikh Hassan Dahir Aweys, the militia also changed their name from Islamic Court Union to Conservative Council of Islamic Courts. The US said that Mr.Dahir was an associate of Osama bin Laden in the 1990's."
"This new appointment raised fresh fears for the US that Somalia will become a safe-haven for Al-Qaeda operatives." [...]
Again, I would refer you back to the 9/11 Commission Report I linked to above, the references to ALQ being in Somalia in the 1990's, are all right there, as is the Commission's conclusion that pulling out of Somalia immediately after the "Blackhawk Down" firefight was an enormous strategic mistake...
From f.l.y. 9:42PM:
ReplyDelete"Thanks for further establishing my point,"
Got me there. I really should have gone back over that embarrassing 'case' Powell gave to the UN, complete with all its mis-statements and exaggerations, just to count how many times the late Zarqawi was mentioned.
Look, we can play 'gotcha' games till the sun explodes and it won't change a blessed thing.
You continue to argue a fundamental paradox: things in Iraq are stabilizing and the jihadists are loosing ground, yet we don't dare withdrawl lest Al Qaeda take over (which btw has never been a stated goal of theirs). In the meantime US troops are dying every day in service of a mission that was never clearly defined in the first place, and whose objectives shift with the political winds, the Iraqi infrastructure continues to be a shell of its pre-invasion self, and over a third of the population have outrightly refused to endorse the current constitution, making any notion of a stable and unifed government laughable.
Worse, your fixation on Iraq alone ignores the larger issues that are spiralling out of this disaster. We left less secure and safe from all this, not moreso. You can claim Iraq is no longer a safe haven for Al Qaeda or terrorism in general; instead its become a recruitment tool and a training ground for them and will likely continue to be so well into the future. You can claim at least we got rid of Hussein and Zarqawi, but a pro-Iranian regime getting voted into office and Bin Laden and his inner circle continuing to be at large hardly seems a decent exchange.
Ultimately, regardless of whatever reasons or rationalizations you care to offer, this invasion has been a disaster that has cost too many lives and too much treasure, and has accomplished nothing to make the US any safer.
Let's call it a day on this one, eh? You won't be convinced otherwise and I'm just tired of arguing the point.
yankeependragon,
ReplyDelete"Got me there. [...] Look, we can play 'gotcha' games till the sun explodes and it won't change a blessed thing."
You sad a mouthful there, but there's more.
"Let's call it a day on this one, eh? [...] I'm just tired of arguing the point."
Trouble is, you have never really been "arguing" any particular point because without the benefit of supporting authorities, what you are doing is simply "philosophizing".
Case in point:
"Ultimately, regardless of whatever reasons or rationalizations you care to offer, this invasion has been a disaster [...]"
Again, philosophizing = "To speculate in a philosophical manner", and arguing = "To give evidence of; indicate" which, at least in theory, implies that there are two sets of verifiable facts in conflict hence the need for debate.
And another thing...
f.l.y:
ReplyDeleteCase in point:
"Ultimately, regardless of whatever reasons or rationalizations you care to offer, this invasion has been a disaster [...]"
Again, philosophizing = "To speculate in a philosophical manner", and arguing = "To give evidence of; indicate" which, at least in theory,...
OK, let's go to the facts. 2500+ (and counting) U.S. servicemen dead. Hundreds of billions wasted. Three elections (and if elections were the halllmark of a democratic society, Iraq would be some fabled Elysian fileds by now ... how is the number of elections some mark of "progress", pray tell?), and things as bad if not worse than ever. Infrastructure as bad if not worse than when we had sanctions imposed and bombed the infrastructure on a regular basis. Unemployment a chronic problem with some of the best jobs available being in the Iraqi guard/police, where the best perq is the payment your survivors will get when you're killed. The intelligencia packing up and leaving as fast as they can.
Yes, let's talk about the facts. I'm up for it. What was the "high point" of if the invasion? For some reason, that "fact" escapes me.....
Cheers,
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2006/20060629_5547.html
ReplyDeleteWASHINGTON, June 29, 2006 – The 500 munitions discovered throughout Iraq since 2003 and discussed in a National Ground Intelligence Center report meet the criteria of weapons of mass destruction, the center's commander said here today.
"These are chemical weapons as defined under the Chemical Weapons Convention, and yes ... they do constitute weapons of mass destruction," Army Col. John Chu told the House Armed Services Committee.
The Chemical Weapons Convention is an arms control agreement which outlaws the production, stockpiling and use of chemical weapons. It was signed in 1993 and entered into force in 1997.
The munitions found contain sarin and mustard gases, Army Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, said. Sarin attacks the neurological system and is potentially lethal.
"Mustard is a blister agent (that) actually produces burning of any area (where) an individual may come in contact with the agent," he said. It also is potentially fatal if it gets into a person's lungs.
The munitions addressed in the report were produced in the 1980s, Maples said. Badly corroded, they could not currently be used as originally intended, Chu added.
While that's reassuring, the agent remaining in the weapons would be very valuable to terrorists and insurgents, Maples said. "We're talking chemical agents here that could be packaged in a different format and have a great effect," he said, referencing the sarin-gas attack on a Japanese subway in the mid-1990s.