In my previous post on gay marriage and flag burning a commenter expressed dismay that the subject matter deviated from Glenn's normal postings about the means by which the Bush administration usurps for itself unchecked powers and threatens our constitutional freedoms. Although I didn't develop the theme, I would argue that such is a part of how democracy is being undermined in this nation.
The flag burning amendment is a means by which a vital component of democracy - the right to express dissent - is criminalized, with the suppression of free speech being characterized as patriotism. This is dangerous to liberty because it conflates undemocratic activity with being a patriot. When you hear someone like Michael Reagan suggesting that Howard Dean should be hanged or jailed for offering a dissenting opinion you're merely seeing this mind set taken to its extreme.
Also, in the other post I mentioned that the amendment elevates the flag to the level of a sacred symbol, where burning it is akin to the religious crime of blasphemy. This is not surprising, as nationalism in its more jingoistic forms begins to resemble in many respects a form of political religion. For example, look at what Reagan is denouncing Dean for doing, for thinking that we can't win in Iraq, he's mad at Dean for expressing a heretical view, for which he accuses Dean of treason. This is familiar; whenever religion is conflated with state the crimes of heresy and treason become indistinguishable.
The anti-gay marriage amendment I concede it is a bit more difficult to see how this relates to the subversion of democracy. But scratch the surface and you will find the same general disregard and/or antipathy for this nation's democratic institutions that is characteristic of the current administration. Consider the purpose of proposing the amendment - to invite the Republican party's Religious Right constituents to the polls in November - and the link starts to emerge.
The Religious Right is a political movement that is inherently anti-democratic. The Dominionists and Reconstructionists which lead the movement understand that the democratic institutions which safeguard our civil liberties - the seperation of church/state and the seperation of powers between branches of government - stand in the way of their plan (given voice by D. James Kennedy) to:
"... exercise godly dominion and influence over our neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature and arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our news media, our scientific endeavors -- in short, over every aspect and institution of human society."Listen to the language being used to defend the passage of the anti-gay marriage amendment, and you will notice it's about protecting American values from "activist courts" run by "unelected" judges. The use of these terms is like blowing a dog whistle which the Religious Right can hear the message of, but most Americans can not. They understand that an independent judiciary, which was described by Alexander Hamilton in Federalist #78 "as the citadel of the public justice and the public security", is the last line of defense preventing them from achieving their theocratic goals. It just so happens that getting rid of an independent judiciary which can serve as a check on the legislative or executive branch by providing oversight also fits the purposes of neoconservatives and cultist/political religion conservatives.
To understand this point, take a look at this article by political scientist Shadia Drury who contends that attacking the judiciary is part of a neoconservative plan to use populism to vote out liberal democracy (bold emphasis mine).
In my view, the neoconservative enthusiasm for radical democracy has two sources. First, it is rooted in the hope and the gamble that the people are likely to be more conservative than their "parchment regime"—the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. And if the last two presidential elections are any indication, this may well be true. Second, neoconservatives are hostile to America’s liberal traditions. They are smart enough to recognize that there is a gulf between democracy and liberty, and that the former can be used to defeat the latter. They are clever enough to grasp the self-refuting nature of democracy.If you've been following this blog for a while now, this all should sound a bit familiar. This is why the amendments matter. They are both part of the means by which Americans are invited to vote against their own freedoms.
Conservatives understand that people are vulnerable to manipulation and can easily be made to turn against their own liberties. If the people can be convinced that liberty leads to licentiousness, children out of wedlock, drug addiction, prostitution, and rampant crime, and if they can be convinced that liberty also undermines national security, they will gladly rid themselves of liberty. In short, the neoconservative enthusiasm for democracy has its source in the very real possibility that democracy can be the most powerful instrument in the destruction of the liberal regime.
I agree. We have been watching the neocon/Bush et al for a long time. Lots of discussion, analysis about framing, the deceit, the manipulation. One thought was that the neocon's are able to make what is unconscionable today acceptable tomorrow because of long term thinking.
ReplyDeleteIf this is true (and I think the war proves it in that it only is serving as the support of unitary executive), then these amendments are the next clicks of the rail cog as the starting point for the center moves further right.
These amendments are there to serve more than getting out the vote. The election is just the cover being used. They say they want the vote, as the goons push the platform in the same direction of the train. Thus, you never see the center moving. But you can feel it!
Wonderful Commentary - you really do hit the nail on the head. There is no question that this Amendment is in conflict with the rest of the Constitution. One only hopes that it serves to further fracture the GOP coalition - pushing more independents and moderate Republicans to the left.
ReplyDeleteMontpellier
Excellent post. I found the article by Drury very interesting, but she tends to focus solely on neocons, which is fine, but might miss the homeostatic view one gets from standing back and observing the larger picture of how the many and disparate factions of the American political right have worked together over the last 35 years to bring us to the dangerous place we are today. The lawyers at the Federalist Society are not neocons and they having been "Slouching Towards Extremism" for some time.Chip Berlet at PRA has been studying the political right for over 20 years. I also think you may find this group helpful: Theocracy Watch is a project of the Center for Religion, Ethics and Social Policy (CRESP) at Cornell University.
ReplyDeleteexcellent post. Thanks for writing it.
ReplyDeleteTo what end? What's the goal?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteTo what end? What's the goal?
You read the piece, didn't you?
Basically, it's just what Chomsky and others all the way back to the founders have all ways been saying. No need to repress a population. Give them enough rope and smoke and they will gladly put the noose around their own necks.
Authoritarian movements have destroyed constitutional democracies in the past, most notably the Weimar Republic in 1933, and I think the current "conservative Christian" movement has already succeeded in severely undermining the American republic.
ReplyDeleteYou are, of course, correct about the importance of an independent federal judiciary, but the Republican party has already destroyed that institution in America, so it's a bit too late to do anything about preserving it.
The current federal judiciary, led by the four radical extremists on the supreme court, will uphold any religious based restriction on liberty enacted by conservative legislative majorities, and strike down any "progressive" law that remaining progressive state legislatures may enact. That's the way the judiciary will operate from now on---utterly partisan and faith based.
You read the piece, didn't you?
ReplyDeleteBasically, it's just what Chomsky and others all the way back to the founders have all ways been saying. No need to repress a population. Give them enough rope and smoke and they will gladly put the noose around their own necks.
This doesn't answer my question.
The anti-gay marriage amendment I concede it is a bit more difficult to see how this relates to the subversion of democracy.
ReplyDeleteBush didn’t mention this amendment since the last election so in the short-term it’s about energizing the religious radical right to make sure they vote and both amendments are distractions to keep people from talking about the real problems we face.
But both amendments are related to what you said about “nationalism in its more jingoistic forms begins to resemble in many respects a form of political religion.” We saw that with the religious post the other day when our troll insisted that only Republicans can avoid hell.
Someone then mentioned that he was the “total wingnut package” and indeed that’s true – that branch of the party combines very effectively both the radical anti-democratic religious right with a form of “patriotism” that is also authoritarian in nature.
When you combine the two, you have a political religion which is basically incipient fascism wrapped in the flag and the cross. And it is this “political religion” that threatens are basic democratic values.
This doesn't answer my question.
ReplyDeletePerhaps you don't have a specific question. Perhaps you are just a troll.
Money and profit. It's the answer to your question. It's the bottom line.
ReplyDeleteal:
ReplyDeleteWhat are you talking about?
Democracy by definition is where the people make their own decisions through their votes.
In our system of government, the judiciary is the only non-democratic branch. Judges are not accountable to the people in any way. They gain their office through appointment, not election. They maintain their offices for life.
The left has been fighting against democracy for over 30 years now and relying upon the non-democratic judiciary to advance its goals.
Your citation to the concept of a "wall between church and state" demonstrates this truth perfectly.
The Establishment Clause was meant only to bar the Unites States from following England's lead and creating a state religion. Nothing in the text of that provision bars the expression of any religion at all in the public square. Indeed, expressions of religion by the government were common place after the enactment of the Constitution.
This concept of banishing religion from the public square was created out of whole cloth by the Supreme Court and based only upon a line taken out of context in one of Thomas Jefferson's letters, which has no legal authority whatsoever.
This concept is hardly a well established principle of democracy. Large majorities of the citizenry opposed the ban on school prayer and other displays of religion on government property.
To the contrary, this concept is a perfect example of a non-democratic idea forced upon the voters by a unaccountable court.
Your current hobbyhorse of redefining marriage to include homosexual unions is another perfect example of non-democratic government power in action.
There is not a state in the union whose voters would approve such a redefinition. It has only been forced on the people by unelected and unaccountable courts writing their social preference into state constitutions.
If you want to argue the merit of these ideas, go ahead. But don't even begin to claim that they have anything at all to do with our democracy.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteJust remember, there is "a Rat"
ReplyDeletein separate.
The flag burning amendment is a means by which a vital component of democracy - the right to express dissent - is criminalized, with the suppression of free speech being characterized as patriotism. This is dangerous to liberty because it conflates undemocratic activity with being a patriot.
ReplyDeleteI’m hoping that this brand of authoritarian patriotism will be greatly weakened by the overwhelming unpopularity of the Iraq War. By equating dissent with treason, while simultaneously using this rhetoric against the opponents of the Iraq War, those using these smears are in effect accusing the majority of Americans of being traitors and cowards, and I think it will backfire.
A perfect example of how desperate these anti-democratic “patriots” are getting is Mark Steyn’s latest diatribe against anyone who is concerned by what happened in Haditha.
He accuses even many Republicans of being “molting hawks” and calls their dismay over Haditha “not a sign of your moral integrity but of your fundamental unseriousness.”
Steyn calls intentionally murdering civilians, bombing schools and torturing prisoners “inevitable” so supporters of the war should not be concerned about it and move on and get serious.
He advises, “A superpower that wallows in paranoia and glorifies self-loathing cannot endure and doesn't deserve to.”
This is a perfect example of authoritarian “patriotism” but it is also an indication of how desperate the situation has become for them.
In the meantime, true patriots are beginning to realize that the problems at Haditha are
systemic and they aren’t busy condoning mass murder, but saying things like this:
"Our national identity is based on holding ourselves, and our country, to the highest moral standard on Earth. And that -- rather than this kind of slippery rationalizing -- is true patriotism."
My, what a lot of Straw Men there are in the comments today.
ReplyDelete"... the amendment elevates the flag to the level of a sacred symbol, where burning it is akin to the religious crime of blasphemy."
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. Out here in the center of the fundamentalist universe -- Colorado Springs -- it's clear the cross (or the "fish" symbol) and the American Flag are interchangeable symbols to the true believers.
The big box churches out here were draped in American flags on Memorial Day weekend.
They gain their office through appointment, not election.
ReplyDeleteExactly which judges are you speaking of? In my state, they're all elected officials. If you mean the Supremes, they're appointed, and up until the rise of the neocons, there wasn't a problem with them being appointed for life that I can recall.
FWIW, CNN.com is polling on the anti-gay-marriage amendment, and it's currently losing 2 to 1.
michael said...
ReplyDeleteBart: In our system of government, the judiciary is the only non-democratic branch.
It was intended that way because we are supposed to be a nation of laws, not men. You know what the height of a 'democratic judiciary' would be?? A lynch mob.
At least you are honest about your anti-democratic tendencies. Your exact same arguments were made by the monarchists arguing for the King and against our democratic experiment.
Democracy by definition is where the people make their own decisions through their votes.
ReplyDeleteIn our system of government, the judiciary is the only non-democratic branch.
Consider that we're a Constitutional REPUBLIC with separation of powers and a guarantee of a republican form of government in the Constitution. Read the Federalist Papers and familiarize yourself with the Constitutional debates and maybe you'll understand why we specifically aren't a "Democracy".
vermontraccoon said...
ReplyDeleteJudges aren't meant to be lackeys of the people or their political appointers; the entire idea of the judiciary is to provide an autonomous branch of our tripartate system to check abuses by the other two.
This could not be further from the truth. The judiciary was supposed to be the weakest branch and was meant to be bound by the law it was interpreting.
You might want to read Hamilton's Federalist 78 describing the role of the judiciary:
http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/fed78.htm
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI think some, including Glenn, are missing something about the anti-gay marriage amendment crap...and its direct ties to creeping fascism. It is using federal power to take power from the people as expressed in the states. It takes away, virtually forever, the power of the people to make their own laws and decisions. If the people of a state cannot (or more importantly will not) take away the civil rights and other basic protections for a scapegoat subpopulation, then step in and force this upon everyone.
ReplyDeleteIt can be as hard to undo an Amendment as it is to actually get one passed. Though, realistically, the Amendment may not really be intended to pass (except by those loons in the Congress: (nut)Hatch, Man-on-dog, Lieberman, etc), it is still a tool of fascism/dictatorship. It is intended to bring out the revisionists, the dominionists, the total batshit crazies, and get them to vote in the Fall. Those they vote for are the very same monsters that have been systematically dismantling our Constitution and Bill of Rights for the last 6 years.
Foisting an Amendment upon the People in order to force upon them what cannot be obtained by other means and specifically bringing out the nutcase voters (and suppressing the normals and reasonables) IS a means of furthering dictatorship.
vermontraccoon said...
ReplyDeletethe entire idea of the judiciary is to provide an autonomous branch of our tripartate system to check abuses by the other two.
This could not be further from the truth. The judiciary was supposed to be the weakest branch and was limited to the cases and controversies brought before it. The legislature was the only branch meant to pass legislation and held the checks of the purse and impeachment over the President.
You might want to read Hamilton's Federalist 78 describing the role of the judiciary:
http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/fed78.htm
I read once that if you wanted to capturea snake or lizard, you waved your fingers rapidly in front of his face. He sees only rapid movement as being of interest or danger. Meanwhile you slowly move your other hand around to his back and grab him.
ReplyDeleteThese amendments are fingers wiggling in front of our faces while the slow hand is reaching around to enslave us.
The flag desecration amendment desecrates the flag more than any anti-American demonstration. Besides, how many flags have you actually seen burned in protest in this country? Me neither.
Both these amendments are cynical attempts to rally the base for the fall elections, because the Busheviks know they have nothing positive to offer the voters in the election. So they are manipulating their dupes in order to get out the vote. Evidently tampering with the Diebolds won't be enough this time like it was in 2004.
michael said...
ReplyDeleteBart: Your exact same arguments were made by the monarchists arguing for the King and against our democratic experiment
I am glad to hear that you respect the Constitution and share our concern about George W. Bush assuming king-like powers - namely, his assertion of his right to break the law when it suits him - and I look forward to your call for his impeachment due to his failure to 'faithfully execute the laws' as required by the Constitution.
As soon as you show me where Mr, Bush ever claimed he could "break the law when it suited him" or even an actual case of lawbreaking, I might take you high umbrage seriously rather than the partisan sniping that it is.
A flagburning amendment asks us to choose our symbols over our principles. A gay marraige amendment asks us to choose superstition over our own people.
ReplyDeleteThese are the diversionary tactics of a frantic failure. It remains to be seen if Crackerstan will be used successfully against America again.
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As soon as you show me where Mr, Bush ever claimed he could "break the law when it suited him" or even an actual case of lawbreaking, I might take you high umbrage seriously rather than the partisan sniping that it is.
ReplyDeleteSince we all know that you will not accept any of the evidence that is all too well known, I will take your post as the kind of partisan cowardice that is the long and short of your content.
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You might want to read Hamilton's Federalist 78
ReplyDeleteOr you could read Marbury vs Madison again. Will you also be in Alabama, supporting the state courts' independence from SCOTUS?
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anon [10:23]:
ReplyDelete"... exercise godly dominion and influence over our neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature and arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our news media, our scientific endeavors -- in short, over every aspect and institution of human society."
That's the goal. If this doesn't answer your question, I suggest you be more specific.
Sorry to be the grammar Nazi, but that should be "hanged or jailed" not "hung or jailed." The former is the correct past participle when one is talking about the method of capital punishment.
ReplyDeleteThanks, GreenSooner. I'll make the correction.
ReplyDeleteReL Federalist 78.
I wonder if Bart has himself read it. Hamilton cites the judiciary being the weakest branch as part of the justification of the independence of judges.
What's really funny about the whole flag-as-sacred-object meme is that corporations are taking to flying thier own flags
ReplyDeleteGrand Moff Texan said...
ReplyDeleteBart: You might want to read Hamilton's Federalist 78
Or you could read Marbury vs Madison again.
Marbury stands for the self evident proposition that courts review laws.
There is nothing in that opinion that states it is the Constitutional role of the judiciary to serve as a check on the other democratic branches.
michael said...
ReplyDeleteAs soon as you show me where Mr, Bush ever claimed he could "break the law when it suited him" or even an actual case of lawbreaking
You can't be serious.
Apparently you subscribe to the Nixonian theory that if the president does it, then by definition it's not illegal.
:::yawn:::
At least you identified the President who did say such a thing.
The fact that you cannot cite one similar quote by Mr. Bush answers my question.
Hume's Ghost said...
ReplyDeleteReL Federalist 78.
I wonder if Bart has himself read it. Hamilton cites the judiciary being the weakest branch as part of the justification of the independence of judges.
Agreed.
There was more than a little fear when the Constitution was being considered that the courts might arrogate unto themselves power to write the law.
Until the 1930s, Hamilton was right that the Courts would restrain themselves. However, the New Deal courts started the rewriting of the Constitution which continues today.
OK, Federalist #78:
ReplyDeleteThe standard of good behavior for the continuance in office of the judicial magistracy, is certainly one of the most valuable of the modern improvements in the practice of government. In a monarchy it is an excellent barrier to the despotism of the prince; in a republic it is a no less excellent barrier to the encroachments and oppressions of the representative body. And it is the best expedient which can be devised in any government, to secure a steady, upright, and impartial administration of the laws.
In other words, judges have lifetime tenure to provide an autonomous branch of our tripartite system to check abuses of the other two.
You can't rebut vermontraccoon's point by referring to text that he's paraphrasing!
As for Bush, I'd rather stand with Hamilton:
For I agree, that "there is no liberty, if the power of judging be not separated from the legislative and executive powers."
There is nothing in that opinion that states it is the Constitutional role of the judiciary to serve as a check on the other democratic branches.
ReplyDeleteIf you knew what the role of the other two branches were with regards to the law, you wouldn't need it spelled out for you.
.
Until the 1930s, Hamilton was right that the Courts would restrain themselves. However, the New Deal courts started the rewriting of the Constitution which continues today.
ReplyDeleteYou see, I could tell you that conservatives want to roll back the 20th century and be called paranoid. Or, I could just let them come over here and admit it.
.
The Polite Liberal said...
ReplyDeleteOK, Federalist #78: The standard of good behavior for the continuance in office of the judicial magistracy, is certainly one of the most valuable of the modern improvements in the practice of government. In a monarchy it is an excellent barrier to the despotism of the prince; in a republic it is a no less excellent barrier to the encroachments and oppressions of the representative body. And it is the best expedient which can be devised in any government, to secure a steady, upright, and impartial administration of the laws.
In other words, judges have lifetime tenure to provide an autonomous branch of our tripartite system to check abuses of the other two.
You can't rebut vermontraccoon's point by referring to text that he's paraphrasing!
The impartial administration of the laws is not to what vermontraccoon is referring or he would have done so in his ranting response to my post.
The subject of this blog is how courts wrote new constitutional law to establish "democratic principles." If vermontraccoon is replying to this point, he is implying that courts legislating from the bench are somehow a check on the other two branches of government.
Unlike the elected branches, the Constitution does not permit the courts to take any affirmative action. They can only rule on the cases and controversies brought before them.
To us a sports metaphor, the executive and legislature are players while the courts are only referees.
Couldn't help but notice the reference to a "republic" in your Federalist quote there Bart - so why do insist on criticizing the courts because they don't meet your definition of a "democracy"?
ReplyDeleteYou gonna withdraw that or what?
Andy said...
ReplyDeleteCouldn't help but notice the reference to a "republic" in your Federalist quote there Bart - so why do insist on criticizing the courts because they don't meet your definition of a "democracy"?
You gonna withdraw that or what?
???
I apologize if I am not being clear.
Hume is arguing that laws created by the courts are somehow bedrock "principles of democracy."
My point is the the courts are non-democtratic institutions and the laws which they make up against the wishes of a majority of voters can hardly be considered to be "democratic" in any way, shape or form.
We do indeed live in a Republic and not a pure democracy. However, I am addressing the arguments made in the blog which falsely claim non-democratic acts are somehow democratic.
Polite Liberal:
ReplyDeletevermontraccoon said...
In Bart's version of bizzarro world, proof that your opponent's position is correct is often thrown back as though it proved the exact opposite. While the momentary confusion results, it's time for the right wing mouthbreather to scurry away claiming victory. This is known as the Bill O'Reilly technique. Using this technique allows the mentally challenged to pretend to have a valid point without the added burden of critical thought or logical progression. Bart? Bart? Are you out there, Bart? Old Bill O'reilly would be proud of you, son.
PL:
It is dangerous to assume to speak for other posters here.
As you can tell from this ad hominem rant, vermontraccoon doesn't have the vaguest idea what you and I are talking about.
HWSNBN confuses the common words "should be" with "is" (but that may depend on what the meaning of "is" is, eh?):
ReplyDeleteThe judiciary was supposed to be the weakest branch and was meant to be bound by the law it was interpreting.
Ummmm, this is Hamilton explaining that the judiciary is the "least dangerous branch".
Nothing about it's supposed to STFU and lie down; just some reassurances to those that might oppose a federal judiciary at all (or otherwise criticise the Constitution):
"In unfolding the defects of the existing Confederation, the utility and necessity of a federal judicature have been clearly pointed out."
Hardly a call for a weak judiciary; in fact, an argument that a federal judiciary is necessary, unlike the Articles of Confederation provided.
There there's this "judges should interpret the law, not make it crapola" spuoted by HWSNBN: "... was meant to be bound by the law it was interpreting." Beikng bound by the law is hardly remarkable. What the conservatives don't like is activist judiciaries (except when they're conservatively activist). And the standard formulation is that judges aren't supposed to "make law". Utter nonsense considering that the English system we adopted was based on the "Common law", which is exclusively judge-made law, and our legal system is based on such in many instances -- including the concept of "precedent (and for good reason) -- even as a federal "common law" has pretty much disappeared.
Cheers,
Um, 'democracy' is nothing more than mob rule and was greatly feared by the founders. In a democracy, you have no individual rights except those that the majority determines. As Bart should well know, our REPUBLIC was never intended to be a democracy at all.
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteAs soon as you show me where Mr, Bush ever claimed he could "break the law when it suited him" or even an actual case of lawbreaking, I might take you high umbrage seriously rather than the partisan sniping that it is.
"When the preznit does it, it's not illegal...."
The troll HWSNBN thinks that the judiciary is not allowed to interpret the law, but the preznit is. In fact, isn't that pretty much Glenn's point in his book?
Cheers,
HWSNBN asserts sans evidence:
ReplyDeleteThere was more than a little fear when the Constitution was being considered that the courts might arrogate unto themselves power to write the law.
OK, out with the evidence.
Cheers,
HWSNBN shows he's truly a clueless berk:
ReplyDeleteUntil the 1930s, Hamilton was right that the Courts would restrain themselves. However, the New Deal courts started the rewriting of the Constitution which continues today.
A profound false recounting of history here. HWSNBN isn't just ignorant, he';s plain wrong.
Cheers,
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDelete"In unfolding the defects of the existing Confederation, the utility and necessity of a federal judicature have been clearly pointed out."
Hardly a call for a weak judiciary; in fact, an argument that a federal judiciary is necessary, unlike the Articles of Confederation provided.
OK, I have a few minutes to school you again.
We are talking about whether the courts have any power beyond adjudicating the cases and controversies brought before them.
What exactly does that have to do with the fact that the Constitution created a federal judiciary not present under the Articles of Confederation?
There there's this "judges should interpret the law, not make it crapola" spuoted by HWSNBN: "... was meant to be bound by the law it was interpreting." Beikng bound by the law is hardly remarkable. What the conservatives don't like is activist judiciaries (except when they're conservatively activist). And the standard formulation is that judges aren't supposed to "make law". Utter nonsense considering that the English system we adopted was based on the "Common law", which is exclusively judge-made law, and our legal system is based on such in many instances -- including the concept of "precedent (and for good reason) -- even as a federal "common law" has pretty much disappeared.
Your ignorance of your own system of government is breathtaking.
There are three levels of law in our legal system in the following order of precedence - constitutional, statutory and common law.
Common law for those who do not know is judge made law.
Constitutional and statutory law trumps common law and the courts are bound to enforce the constitution and statutes as written. They are not permitted to amend either the Constitution or statutes through common law.
Common law is only allowed if the constitution or a statute has not already addressed the subject matter area and is almost exclusively limited to civil law these days.
Hume is arguing that laws created by the courts are somehow bedrock "principles of democracy."
ReplyDeleteThat's some damn fine sophistry. Impressive. Its even more impressive if you can get yourself to believe it.
My point is the the courts are non-democtratic institutions and the laws which they make up against the wishes of a majority of voters can hardly be considered to be "democratic" in any way, shape or form.
Here's an example of these horrible activist courts "making up laws". H/T DailyKos via Americablog.
HWSNBN misses the boat again:
ReplyDelete[Arne, quoting Hamilton]: "In unfolding the defects of the existing Confederation, the utility and necessity of a federal judicature have been clearly pointed out."
[Arne]: Hardly a call for a weak judiciary; in fact, an argument that a federal judiciary is necessary, unlike the Articles of Confederation provided.
OK, I have a few minutes to school you again.
Lest time HWSNBN did that, he quoted a nonexistent case.
We are talking about whether the courts have any power beyond adjudicating the cases and controversies brought before them.
That wasn't what the cite HWSNBN provided (Hamilton's Federlaist #78) was talking about, so is this a case of HWSNBN misquoting again?
Speaking of Hamilton's Federalist #78, here's one thikng it says:
"The complete independence of the courts of justice is peculiarly essential in a limited Constitution. By a limited Constitution, I understand one which contains certain specified exceptions to the legislative authority; such, for instance, as that it shall pass no bills of attainder, no ex-post-facto laws, and the like. Limitations of this kind can be preserved in practice no other way than through the medium of courts of justice, whose duty it must be to declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void. Without this, all the reservations of particular rights or privileges would amount to nothing."
IOW, Hamilton was of the opinion that it was the court's job to rein in the legislature should it act unconstitutionally (e.g., by passing bills of attainder). HWSNBN is pretty dam hard of reading here.
What exactly does that have to do with the fact that the Constitution created a federal judiciary not present under the Articles of Confederation?
Hamilton was arguing for a federal judiciary, and with the above-cited powers.
As for this "judges shall interpret law, not make it" hogwash so popular with the 'conservatives' nowadays, covered elsewhere above. Judges are always 'making law' (or 'unmaking it' as the case may be), at least under our system of gummint.
I'd note that HWSNBN hasn't responded to my correction about the "'New Deal' courts". I assume he's thankful for the correction.
Cheers,
hg:
ReplyDeleteBart: Hume is arguing that laws created by the courts are somehow bedrock "principles of democracy."
That's some damn fine sophistry. Impressive. Its even more impressive if you can get yourself to believe it.
You seem to be in love with the term sophistry. Calling something sophistry and then changing the subject to Loving v. Virginia is not a rebuttal to my point.
Either concede the point or make an argument as to why law created by non-democratic courts is somehow democratic.
Paul Rosenberg said...
ReplyDeleteBart: Until the 1930s, Hamilton was right that the Courts would restrain themselves. However, the New Deal courts started the rewriting of the Constitution which continues today.
If anyone is even tempted for a moment to believe this load of Karl Rove, I suggest that you read A People's History of the Supreme Court by Peter H. Irons...
This is actually a superb book for those who wish to understand the mind set of left in working to get the judiciary to enact laws from the bench which would have no chance of passage in a legislature.
Irons admits in his preface that he approaches his topic with an ideological bias, noting that he had no wish to conceal his "values behind a mask of scholarly 'objectivity' or a veil of 'neutrality'" (p. xv). No book on constitutional history, he reasons, "has failed to conceal its author's personal values or political stance, despite the disclaimers of some" (ibid.)... Irons notes that "American constitutional history is the history of real people with real grievances. Judges--who are also real people--do not always uphold these claims, but their decisions affect many lives" (p. 157).
http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=12074972676725
arne:
ReplyDeleteBart: We are talking about whether the courts have any power beyond adjudicating the cases and controversies brought before them.
That wasn't what the cite HWSNBN provided (Hamilton's Federlaist #78) was talking about, so is this a case of HWSNBN misquoting again?
Speaking of Hamilton's Federalist #78, here's one thikng it says:
"The complete independence of the courts of justice is peculiarly essential in a limited Constitution. By a limited Constitution, I understand one which contains certain specified exceptions to the legislative authority; such, for instance, as that it shall pass no bills of attainder, no ex-post-facto laws, and the like. Limitations of this kind can be preserved in practice no other way than through the medium of courts of justice, whose duty it must be to declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void. Without this, all the reservations of particular rights or privileges would amount to nothing."
IOW, Hamilton was of the opinion that it was the court's job to rein in the legislature should it act unconstitutionally (e.g., by passing bills of attainder). HWSNBN is pretty dam hard of reading here.
Honestly, are you really this addled or are you just yanking my chain?
My point and Hamilton's was that courts are limited to what the Constitution says.
I'd note that HWSNBN hasn't responded to my correction about the "'New Deal' courts". I assume he's thankful for the correction.
What correction was that? Calling someone names and saying you are wrong is not a "correction." Here is all that you posted...
HWSNBN shows he's truly a clueless berk:
Until the 1930s, Hamilton was right that the Courts would restrain themselves. However, the New Deal courts started the rewriting of the Constitution which continues today.
A profound false recounting of history here. HWSNBN isn't just ignorant, he';s plain wrong.
Either concede the point or make an argument as to why law created by non-democratic courts is somehow democratic.
ReplyDeleteNope, no sophistry here. That's what this is about. Courts making up laws, has nothing to do with "non-democratic" courts serving a democratic purpose of independently reviewing law to see if they are constitutional or not.
This is why people consider you a troll. Of course courts can't make up laws, there is nothing to concede. As usual, you can't argue the subject so you invent one.
Bart said:
ReplyDelete"As soon as you show me..."
The argument that Bush claims he is not bound by FISA has been explored at length on this blog. For you to pretend no one has made this argument and then accuse another poster of partisanship is beyond ironic. It's proof that you come here and post in bad faith. Good faith argument means at a minimum accepting that the other side has spoken. You would deny that.
Again and again, you pretend arguments you disagree with have never been made, and in this case use your own bad-faith denial of reality to accuse another of being blindly partisan. That's a pathetic way to debate.
Your posts might be interesting if you actually took in what someone else says once in a while. But instead you present your arguments as if you already have inside and indisputable knowlege about everthing. You know who's the target of secret programs. You know the outcome of future Supreme Court decisions. Hell, you even the original intent of the framers and how they would apply it in the 21st century. In your certainty, you don't debate these issues, you simply declaim the truth as you alone know it.
Your method of argument is so insular and so dismissive of those you argue with that you discredit your own points half the time.
I shouldn't post this, as I know it feeds your ego and keeps you the center of the universe here, but really, I'm curious, since your posts show a complete lack of respect of Glenn legal opinions, as well as for most of the facts and arguments posted here, why do you waste so much time here?
If this extreme Dominionist/Reconstructionist movement is so fringe than just how many people represent its leaders, thinkers, and supproters? If it's such a minority, they sure wield an amazing amount of power relative to their demographic size.
ReplyDeleteI hate to say this but couldn't we just take them out back and shoot them all dead? I'm so beyond over their hate, extremism and attempts to dictate reality as they see fit. They are as dangerous as any armed Talibani or Al-Qaida sympathizer -- and we're busy gunning all of those people down.
As a gay man, I have NO DOUBT the radical Christianists are busy working on the next steps of their program to eradicate the world of my kind. Do I get to fight back at all? Or am I supposed to just wait my turn and walk in to the gas chambers when these Christianists smile piously and tell the nation it's all time for us to take a purifying shower?
I'm increasingly scared. As are many members of my community.
HWSNBN ignores the fact that Hamilton thought that the federal judiciary could declare laws unconstitutional:
ReplyDeleteMy point and Hamilton's was that courts are limited to what the Constitution says.
Nope. Just read Article III. Federal courts have a lot to say about suits between states, suits under federal law, admiralty cases, etc... This is first year law, fer crying out loud....
Cheers,
HWSNBN is still clueless:
ReplyDelete[HWSNBN]: Until the 1930s, Hamilton was right that the Courts would restrain themselves. However, the New Deal courts started the rewriting of the Constitution which continues today.
[Arne]: A profound false recounting of history here. HWSNBN isn't just ignorant, he's plain wrong.
OK, I'll grant him this: His assertion is unsupported, but not necessarily "wrong" (though it is). His assertion is >also disputed by me. HWSNBN is of the Monty Python school of "argument", sp I'll olbige him. I won. If he wants to "argue" some more, he will have to pay another pound.
OTOH, if he wants to discuss thinks, he ought to support his assertion that the "New Deal" court was "activist" (hint for the clueless: Striking down laws is hardly "making new law"; it;s just doing what hamilton here said was its job, and what people since Marbury have decided is one role of the court).
Cheers,
Hume's Ghost said...
ReplyDeleteBart: Either concede the point or make an argument as to why law created by non-democratic courts is somehow democratic.
Courts making up laws, has nothing to do with "non-democratic" courts serving a democratic purpose of independently reviewing law to see if they are constitutional or not.
Huh?
Nothing the courts do is democratic. They are by design a non-representative branch. When the courts are doing their job of adjudicating cases in controversy, they are not achieving democratic principle, they are acting a neutral referees.
Our government is a republic, not a democracy. Elected representatives, not the people, enact laws and perform executive functions. Unelected judges adjudicate disputes over the law.
The fact that proper judicial function is a good idea doesn't mean that it is at all democratic in nature.
Of course courts can't make up laws, there is nothing to concede.
LMAO!
Then you oppose court the court imposed separation between church and state and homosexual marriage.
The wall between church and state and your homosexual marriage law are both complete fabrications by the courts.
The History Channel last night broadcast a history of the freemasons and in it there was an exchange between Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson where Jefferson had the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence starting with "We hold these truths to be sacred". Franklin supposedly insisted that the word "sacred" was inappropriate for this document because it was intended to supercede faith based institutions and that word was irrefutably stuck in the domain of faith and religion.
ReplyDeleteFaith is not an adequate substitute for reason in such an important document which serves as a cornerstone in our diverse and tolerant community. Allowing faith based intolerance into our Constitution would be blasphemous if that word weren't also forever trapped in the domain of faith.
Any suggestions?
My speling sux toady. Please fergiv me.
ReplyDeleteCheers,
I remember in the 1960s reading in my father's Progressive Farmer magazine the opinions of the editor agains the Civil Rights act and the Voting Rights Act. He railed against the "Extreme Court" for striking down discrimination in schools and in hiring.
ReplyDeleteI now find myself railing against the "Extreme Court" for shredding the Fourth Amendment and for ruling that the President can violate whatever law he wants to as long as he cries, "national security!" when he does it. I oppose the ruling that says we can condemn public housing in order to sell the land to a wealthy developer to put up luxury condos. Even though it was the "liberal" majority that ruled there, I don't mind saying they were wrong when they were.
OTOH, I wouldn't mind condemning a few Wal-Marts so we could put up a Saks Fifth Avenue or two. Hmmm.
Bush's warrantless spying on Americans violates the constitutionally shaky FISA law, and makes mincemeat out of the Fourth Amendment. When is someone going to get the Extreme Court on record on that one?
Re Bush's two proposed constitutional amendments:
ReplyDeleteI think he should be required to respect the ones we have now before he can be trusted with any new ones.
Propagandee
moon: As a gay man, I have NO DOUBT the radical Christianists are busy working on the next steps of their program to eradicate the world of my kind. Do I get to fight back at all? Or am I supposed to just wait my turn and walk in to the gas chambers when these Christianists smile piously and tell the nation it's all time for us to take a purifying shower?
ReplyDeleteI'm increasingly scared. As are many members of my community.
I don't think the dominionists etc. have that much pull within the Republican Party. They and their co-religionsits are being used for political purposes. The sooner they learn that the better for them, perhaps. There's even talk about them forming their own party.
That being said, these far right Xtians are small minority within the Xtian community. The problem, of course, is that they may have stealthily wheedled their way into positions of power, something fanatics are good at.
As of now, I see no reason to over-react. As some polls show, there's a growing sense within the evangelical movement that there are these radical elements like the Dominionists who really have nothing to do with the teachings of compassion and forgiveness preached by Jesus, and therefore you find a softening of the evangelical talking points.
All in all, the Domionists talk big but they actually are dupes in the hands of the pols who suck their dicks for free but then go and sell their souls to their paymasters, the media-mogul liberal communists.
Shooter compares himself to free blacks in the post-bellum south. I'm glad I didn't miss that. I heard Pat Buchanan say that he felt America was a decadent country in decline because of gay marriage. I'm trying to think where I have heard that kind of rhetoric before...Anyone help me out?
ReplyDeleteHuh?
ReplyDeleteNothing the courts do is democratic. They are by design a non-representative branch. When the courts are doing their job of adjudicating cases in controversy, they are not achieving democratic principle, they are acting a neutral referees.
Bart is just chasing his tail, and frankly, you can see the inherent weakness in righ wing sites purging members who do not agree. He fails to make compelling arguments because that muscle has atrophied from lack of use.
Our government is a republic, not a democracy. Elected representatives, not the people, enact laws and perform executive functions. Unelected judges adjudicate disputes over the law.
It's called a representative democracy, Bart. And it's a big step up from a monarchy without elected representatives. Yes, it has it's problems, being an imaginary person, not unlike corporations. It's an experiment in progress, Bart. That's what he objects to. He wants to end the experiment. Good luck with that, Bart. A suggestion: Find your own country and conduct and your own experiments. You can end them whenever you like.
Shooter, for your cross-burning argument to have merit you'd have to assume I support that prohibition.
ReplyDeleteDan Kennedy:
ReplyDelete"... exercise godly dominion and influence over our neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature and arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our news media, our scientific endeavors -- in short, over every aspect and institution of human society."
...sounds an awful lot like, if not identical to, volksgemeinschaft to me.
Robert O. Paxton:
"Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." (Anatomy of Fascism, p 218)
When I read that Dominionists and Reconstructionists support a system whereby "the Hebrew Scriptures' laws are reapplied [and] [p]eople will be executed for adultery, blasphemy, heresy, homosexual behavior, idolatry, prostitution, evil sorcery (some translations say Witchcraft), etc." frankly I have no hesitation in calling a spade a spade.
What a bunch of fucking fascists.
And if the Rolling Stone article is even remotely true (and in my heart of hearts I wish it wasn't), then my previous reluctance in labeling anybody in American government associated with the "Religious Right" as fucking fascists has effectively evaporated.
There is going to be another civil war. Ready or not, here it comes.
Spark,
ReplyDeleteThe Rise of Christian Nationalism
The problem is stealth theocracy. The extremists have put on a soft face to creep into gov't - James Dobson is the poster boy of this approach. Raise the public's awareness of just how scary (and connected) this movement actually is and their political influence should decline.
shooter242:
ReplyDeleteI just checked and the Supreme Court has already banned a different "expression" by a symbolic burning....
Nope. They didn't "ban" anything (much less "expression"). They upheld laws that prohibited cross-burning (by a 5-4 decision), but the rationale was that such behaviour constitutes "intimidation" (or conceivably even "assault", which can be banned even if such behaviour is incidentally "expressive").
... What is the difference between burning a flag and burning a cross?...
According to the court (and I am inclined not to agree): The history of cross-burning makes it a particularly intimidating activity. That can hardly be said of flag-burning.
... Cross burning was banned because it is offensive to a particular group of people....
Nope. Read the opinion (and the dissents). If it was just a matter of offence to certain people, the law would have been struck down (and nearly was in any case). See also R.A.V. v. St. Paul, where a cross burning statute was struck down. So, obviously, it's not the simple fact of cross-burning that makes the difference.
... Well guess what? Flag burning is offensive to a group of people as well, yet for some reason that group isn't afforded the same legal consideration.
You're confused, Shooter. Why don't you read the cases, and we can talk about what they really say.
Also, FWIW, you're confusing whether cross-burning can be banned under other rationales with putting in a constitutional amendment to would prohibit cross-burning as an expressive activity. That I would also oppose.
Cheers,
shooter242:
ReplyDelete... because when life is boiled down to essentials, the uncertainty of existence is unbearable.
Go ahead, if that "is your wont". You won't be missed around here.
Cheers,
From shooter242 at 8:31PM:
ReplyDelete"Considering all the versions of painful and protracted death envisioned for Bush from your side of the aisle, I can't get too excited about the wish for Dean's demise."
I'm sure shooter242 will be more than happy to provide specific instances where there have been very clear threats made against President Bush's life by left-end commentators or blogs.
"No one doubts whether Dean has the right to say whatever, but whether it's appropriate is a whole different matter."
And remind us precisely what did Governor Dean say that was so 'inappropriate' that it warranted such a reply from Herr Reagan?
From shooter242 at 8:31PM:
ReplyDelete"Considering all the versions of painful and protracted death envisioned for Bush from your side of the aisle, I can't get too excited about the wish for Dean's demise."
I'm sure shooter242 will be more than happy to provide specific instances where there have been very clear threats made against President Bush's life by left-end commentators or blogs.
"No one doubts whether Dean has the right to say whatever, but whether it's appropriate is a whole different matter."
And remind us precisely what did Governor Dean say that was so 'inappropriate' that it warranted such a reply from Herr Reagan?
Sorry for the repeat.
ReplyDeleteI don't expect shooter242 actually respond, btw.
Not honestly at any rate.
Speaking of Michelle Goldberg (Rise of Christian Nationalism) she points out that the crackpots from the group that thinks gays can be “cured” were invited to the White House today.
ReplyDeleteBy inviting Chambers, Exodus's president, and Thomas, its director of membership, to the White House, Bush is at least implicitly endorsing the ex-gay movement. This is of a piece with the administration's continuing embrace of pseudo-science and its frequent attempts to elevate the institutions of the religious right to places of public authority. In a sense, Bush needs the ex-gay movement, because it provides a veneer of moral justification for his new anti-gay marriage push -- the refusal to offer recognition to gay relationships can only be justified if homosexuality is a choice or a condition that can be cured. If, as virtually all mainstream experts believe, Exodus is wrong, then Bush's attempt to rally support against gay families is simply gratuitously cruel. But mainstream experts carry little weight with this administration. Once again, Bush is using his position to symbolically subvert science in favor of a faith-based parallel reality. Gay people will suffer the most from what he is doing, but truth itself is also a casualty.
I’ve got nothing to add. What else is there to say?
The supression of science is a necessary corrolary of the subversion of democracy by this administration. Science is the best tool we have of discovering truth, so its one of the biggest obstacles for the ideologue to overcome.
ReplyDeleteMy path to disdain for the President is similar to Glenn's except the scales fell from my eyes when I read one of Chris Mooney's articles about the manipulation of science in the Bush administration. Looking into that, I came across the aluminum tubes claim, and everything followed from there.
I'm not sure who to address this to since Glenn is on the road, but the link to Paul Rosenberg's review of Glenn's book (at BuzzFlash) no longer works.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Paul could e-mail someone a new link to where it is posted elsewhere.
Bart quotes Hume's Ghost: Of course courts can't make up laws, there is nothing to concede.
ReplyDeleteBart says: LMAO!
Then you oppose court the court imposed separation between church and state and homosexual marriage.
The wall between church and state and your homosexual marriage law are both complete fabrications by the courts.
I say: But Bart, neither the of the issues you state ARE examples of laws - legislative laws. The separation between church and state is a principle that we as a country have been debating the application of since the founding. There is no "homosexual marriage" law since Schwarzennegger vetoed the law that the California state legislature APPROVED OF. If he had signed it into law, the anti-marriage folks would have sued to have it struck down. Would you have then complained about judges legislating from the bench? What the courts are doing, in each case, is attempting to protect the rights of the majority from the oppression by a majority. Whether or not you agree with a particular interpretation, I don't see any way that the courts are not doing their constitutional duty.
It's possible that court-ordered Massachutsetts marriages are of the common law variety, but you have already said common law is a valid function of the courts. If you want to say that's an example of the judiciary trumping the legislature, you're wrong, it's an example of the Mass. constitution trumping the Mass. legislature - the correct hierarchy. And why didn't the Mass. court order gay marriage immediately? They could have said, when they handed in their decision, "effective immediately" and the city halls would have been clogged the next morning. The court gave the Mass legislature a full year to figure out how to make the system work, but the legislature instead decided to stonewall and try to avoid doing the right thing for a year - and the city halls were still clogged.
On a side note to all readers of this blog, the phrase "legislating from the bench" is more nonsensical rightspeak, as is the term "activist judge" - save me from a judicial system that DOESN'T take the activist position of protecting the minority from the unthinking majority. The more times these phrases are said and unchallenged, the quicker another lie will become truthiness, the judiciary will be emasculated, and the American people have one less bulwark against tyranny.
Army Manual to Skip Geneva Detainee Rule
ReplyDeleteThe Pentagon's move to omit a ban on prisoner humiliation from the basic guide to soldier conduct faces strong State Dept. opposition.
WASHINGTON — The Pentagon has decided to omit from new detainee policies a key tenet of the Geneva Convention that explicitly bans "humiliating and degrading treatment," according to knowledgeable military officials, a step that would mark a further, potentially permanent, shift away from strict adherence to international human rights standards.
The decision could culminate a lengthy debate within the Defense Department but will not become final until the Pentagon makes new guidelines public, a step that has been delayed. However, the State Department fiercely opposes the military's decision to exclude Geneva Convention protections and has been pushing for the Pentagon and White House to reconsider, the Defense Department officials acknowledged.
For more than a year, the Pentagon has been redrawing its policies on detainees, and intends to issue a new Army Field Manual on interrogation, which, along with accompanying directives, represents core instructions to U.S. soldiers worldwide.
The process has been beset by debate and controversy, and the decision to omit Geneva protections from a principal directive comes at a time of growing worldwide criticism of U.S. detention practices and the conduct of American forces in Iraq....
shooter242 sez:
ReplyDeleteNo matter how you label it, you are marginalizing Reagan's speech in favor of Dean's. That isn't indicative of a threat from Reagan, it's a threat from you.
Huh??? Dean makes a comment on a particular POV on Iraq. Reagan says that because of this, Dean ought to be hanged by the neck until dead. Shooter thinks that saying Reagan is a raving nut if not worse is a threat to Reagan???
Put down the Kool-Aid, Shooter. And walk away slowly.
But I'll say you're a credit to the Republican party.....
Cheers,
Shooter242 @ 12:14 said...
ReplyDeleteYou are too cute by half. In a clumsy sort of way.
Thank you. I know I am.
Free Squeaky!
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteHume's Ghost: Of course courts can't make up laws, there is nothing to concede.
Bart says: LMAO!
Then you oppose court the court imposed separation between church and state and homosexual marriage.
The wall between church and state and your homosexual marriage law are both complete fabrications by the courts.
I say: But Bart, neither the of the issues you state ARE examples of laws - legislative laws.
No, they are examples of inventing new constitutional law.
What the courts are doing, in each case, is attempting to protect the rights of the majority from the oppression by a majority. Whether or not you agree with a particular interpretation, I don't see any way that the courts are not doing their constitutional duty.
What oppression? In each case, the court was imposing the will of a small minority on the majority of the citizenry.
The courts duty is to apply the Constitution as it is written, not how they would like it to be written.
It's possible that court-ordered Massachutsetts marriages are of the common law variety, but you have already said common law is a valid function of the courts.
As I explained to arne, neither the constitution nor statutes are the subject of judicial common law. Common law may only be used in areas not addressed by a constitution or statute.
If you want to say that's an example of the judiciary trumping the legislature, you're wrong, it's an example of the Mass. constitution trumping the Mass. legislature - the correct hierarchy.
As son as you show me the right to homosexual marriage written in the Bay State constitution, I will agree with you. In fact, a 4-3 majority of the Mass Supremes abused the constitution to rewrite the legislated marriage statute.
That 4-3 opinion creating this new "right" was pure legal contortion on par with the silliness about penumbras in the Roe case.
WASHINGTON — The Pentagon has decided to omit from new detainee policies a key tenet of the Geneva Convention that explicitly bans "humiliating and degrading treatment," according to knowledgeable military officials, a step that would mark a further, potentially permanent, shift away from strict adherence to international human rights standards.
ReplyDeleteThis is a complete lie.
Nothing has changed. Under the strictest adherence to the legal standards set out in the Geneva Conventions, illegal combatants never qualified for the protections of the Geneva Conventions.
This manual update merely recognizes that fact and the paper is deliberately distorting the law.
HWSNBN still misses the boat:
ReplyDelete[anon]: I say: But Bart, neither the of the issues you state [SOCAS and gay marriage] ARE examples of laws - legislative laws.
No, they are examples of inventing new constitutional law.
Debatable. But when it comes to Massachusetts law (and constitution), it would be their Supreme Court that decides, not Mr. "I'm A 'Criminal' Prosecutor In Colorado Springs And Play A Lawyer On The Internet"....
[anon]: What the courts are doing, in each case, is attempting to protect the rights of the majority from the oppression by a majority. Whether or not you agree with a particular interpretation, I don't see any way that the courts are not doing their constitutional duty.
What oppression? In each case, the court was imposing the will of a small minority on the majority of the citizenry.
The troll HWSNBN thinks that constitutions are to protect the rights of the majority (i.e., those already in power).
The courts duty is to apply the Constitution as it is written, not how they would like it to be written.
Why should they interpret it the way a political majority of the moment would have it? If this was to be the way things work, why bother with a constitution at all?
The U.S. Constitution (and to a varying extent state constitutions) were instituted to implement broad policy objectives, amongst which were the rule of law and the preservation of individual rights). Seems that HWSNBN thinks that his brtead is buttered on the side of majoritarian tyrannies. He'd better watch it; he may get waht he asks for.....
Cheers,
Cheers,
HWSNBN misses the point again:
ReplyDelete[Arne]: There there's this "judges should interpret the law, not make it crapola" spouted by HWSNBN: "... was meant to be bound by the law it was interpreting." Being bound by the law is hardly remarkable. What the conservatives don't like is activist judiciaries (except when they're conservatively activist). And the standard formulation is that judges aren't supposed to "make law". Utter nonsense considering that the English system we adopted was based on the "Common law", which is exclusively judge-made law, and our legal system is based on such in many instances -- including the concept of "precedent (and for good reason) -- even as a federal "common law" has pretty much disappeared.
Your ignorance of your own system of government is breathtaking.
HWSNBN's ignorance of my knowledge surpasses that.
There are three levels of law in our legal system in the following order of precedence - constitutional, statutory and common law.
Whoopdedooo. Didn't say that "common law" reigns supreme. All I was pointing out is that the idea of "judge-made law" (including places where they made it up as they went, unarguably, because there was no statutory law) was hardly foreign to the founders. If you told the founders that judges weren't able to use their good sense and fill in around the edges where the existing law (statutory, "common", or even constitutional) was silent at least WRT a specific situation or question, they would have laughed you out of the room....
Common law for those who do not know is judge made law.
Bingo, Sherlock. As I said, it was -- ummm, "common" practise at the time of the founders -- and still is.
Constitutional and statutory law trumps common law and the courts are bound to enforce the constitution and statutes as written. They are not permitted to amend either the Constitution or statutes through common law.
Never said they could or did. HWSNBN is busy tilting at the windmills of his mind here. Nonetheless, it's hardly remarkable that judges need to interpret the constitution (and statutes) where they are not specific enough to answer particular questions.
Common law is only allowed if the constitution or a statute has not already addressed the subject matter area and is almost exclusively limited to civil law these days.
HWSNBN thinks that repetition is a form of "argument". Boooorrrriiiinnngggg.
Cheers,
Hume's Ghost said...
ReplyDeleteThe problem is stealth theocracy. The extremists have put on a soft face to creep into gov't - James Dobson is the poster boy of this approach. Raise the public's awareness of just how scary (and connected) this movement actually is and their political influence should decline.
I really don't think "scariness" is going to cut it. Firstly as your article points out the "coasts" already consider their martyr Roy Moore as "ridiculous" and a "grotesque Southern Anachronism", not scary. Secondly, that quality of "scariness" (sorta like alpha-daddyism) is exactly the quality most populations feed on in times of crisis, be they real or as I maintain with 9/11, imagined.
IMHO the only thing keeping a nominal, genuine or quasi-theocrat from tapping into this rising tide (and I think it stands to reason that it is indeed rising) of Christian Nationalism, or what I'll forevermore call Christofascism, is the relative affluence and economic vitality of the USA. People are too well-fed and too well distracted to either care about a swelling of loathesome Christofascism or be swept-up en masse in tune with its normative prescriptions.
The ongoing irrational socio-political response to 9/11 leads me to believe we're past the point of a rational response to any serious future economic crisis. In other words, and foregive me my fearmongering, I believe we're one stock market crash away from post-Versailles Germany or one serious oil shock away from post-Soviet/Yugoslav breakup Serbia and, needless to say, all the happy-fun-times that'll entail.
Like I said, civil war - and that's if we're lucky.
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteAs son as you show me the right to homosexual marriage written in the Bay State constitution, I will agree with you. In fact, a 4-3 majority of the Mass Supremes abused the constitution to rewrite the legislated marriage statute.
Strangely enough, the U.S. Constitution says nothing about the right to privately own .44 revolvers, the right to be free of wiretaps, or the right to buy political ads, etc.
That 4-3 opinion creating this new "right" was pure legal contortion on par with the silliness about penumbras in the Roe case.
Those four justices count for a hell of a lot more than one HWSNBN troll.
I'd point out parenthetically that "penumbras" were hardly a new "invention". But even WRT the usage most ridiculed by RW foamers, it was Griswold where that appeared, not Roe. HWSNBN is just a complete ignpramus WRT constitutional law..... Which should surprise no one. Don't hire this clueless berk, Mr. Harold Arlan DePalma (a/k/a "Bart"), if you want a lawyer that actually knows a bit about the law.... Hear that, you Colorado Springs drunks???
Cheers,
From shooter242 at 12:14PM:
ReplyDelete""Official Apologizes For Saying Bush Should Be Shot Between Eyes." "
I see. So really you don't have any even vaguely credible stories. It would save much time and embarrassment (our time and your embarrassment, that is) if you'd just bloody *say* so.
"You are too cute by half. In a clumsy sort of way."
No, I'm frelling fed up trying to engage your nonsense seriously. Wallow in your moral cesspool if you wish, just expect to be called on it.
Oh, and incidentally, just admit you can't answer a question from here on, eh? Its more honest than your standard tap-dance.
Bart... The courts duty is to apply the Constitution as it is written, not how they would like it to be written.
ReplyDeleteThis is your position, your argument. Not an assertion of fact.
The constitution must be interpreted. It was left vague and ambiguous by design, you moron. If they had tried to cover every eventuality, people would still be debating whether to adopt it and in what form. You are a distraction. A distortion. Go back to Freep.
Books for Bart to read when he's done with his cheap adventure novels and revisited The Turner Diaries for the 50th time (a real page turner).
ReplyDeleteWhat Kind of Nation: Thomas Jefferson, John Marshall, and the Epic Struggle to Create a United States by James F. Simon
John Marshall : Definer of a Nation by Jean Edward Smith
The Great Chief Justice: John
Marshall and the Rule of Law (American Political Thought) by Charles F. Hobson
Marbury v. Madison : The Origins and Legacy of Judicial Review by William Edward Nelson
John Marshall and the Heroic Age of the Supreme Court (Southern Biography Series) by R. Kent Newmyer
Original Meanings : Politics and Ideas in the Making of the Constitution (Vintage) by Jack N. Rakove
No matter how you label it, you are marginalizing Reagan's speech in favor of Dean's. That isn't indicative of a threat from Reagan, it's a threat from you.
ReplyDeleteAnd what threat do you believe I'm implying?
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteBooks for Bart to read when he's done with his cheap adventure novels and revisited The Turner Diaries for the 50th time (a real page turner).
The troll HWSNBN doesn't do books. Particularly books with historical and factual data. Facts rub off. It's best not to get too close, or you may get contaminated and your Elysian fields poisoned.
All the information he needs is at WhirledNutzDaly, TownHell, and Freeperville. Isn't that enough for you too?
Cheers,
Bart--
ReplyDeleteI don't know if you'll take advice from a political adversary, but your argument sank the moment that you complained about the New Deal court.
Until that point, you appeared to be arguing for a high-minded moral principle that courts, as an unelected branch of government, ought not reverse legislative or executive decisions out of respect for the principles of democracy.
In the case of the New Deal courts, though, you appear to be complaining about exactly the opposite--despite the clear support for the New Deal from both elected branches of government, you believe that the New Deal legislation should have been struck down by the courts. In other words, you're complaining that in the late 1930s the court wasn't activist enough to suit you.
At that point, your high-minded ideal dissolves into familiar partisan whinging--you're simply arguing that the court has ruled in ways you disagree with. There's nothing wrong with that sort of argument, but don't try to disguise it as one defending democratic ideals.
The Polite Liberal said...
ReplyDeleteBart--I don't know if you'll take advice from a political adversary...
Sure, shoot. After twelve ranting posts, it would be a pleasure to have a reasoned conversation.
...but your argument sank the moment that you complained about the New Deal court.
Until that point, you appeared to be arguing for a high-minded moral principle that courts, as an unelected branch of government, ought not reverse legislative or executive decisions out of respect for the principles of democracy.
Not at all. The Court must enforce the checks, balances and guarantees of individual rights actually written in the Constitution or the judicial branch might was well close up shop.
My point was that no one should consider this to be a democratic act. Rather, it is a check on democracy.
In the case of the New Deal courts, though, you appear to be complaining about exactly the opposite--despite the clear support for the New Deal from both elected branches of government, you believe that the New Deal legislation should have been struck down by the courts. In other words, you're complaining that in the late 1930s the court wasn't activist enough to suit you.
I apparently was not clear about my reasoning. See my above response.
Also, forget "activism." That is a meaningless term when applied to judges. Either the Court is acting constitutionally or it is not.
IMHO, Congress had no Article I authority to enact much of the New Deal and unconstitutionally delegated legislative and judicial powers to an unelected and largely unaccountable executive bureaucracy.
The Commerce Clause was clearly meant to give Congress the power to regulate commerce among the states, not to regulate anything under the Sun which could conceivably affect the economy in a metaphysical choas theory sort of way.
The court gutted large swaths of the Constitution and removed several checks on federal power and the accountability for all legislation enacted by the administrative state.
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteNot at all. The Court must enforce the checks, balances and guarantees of individual rights actually written in the Constitution or the judicial branch might was well close up shop....
... except when the preznit says, "Cower in fear, and I'll take care of you" and proceeds to claim the right to take each any any such liberty away, all beyond the reach of the courts, in the name of "nash'nul s'curity". HWSNBN kind of likes that part. Makes him feel like someone loves him ... or likes him ... or maybe is paying some kind of attention to him ... kind of like a battered wife, yaknow....
Cheers,
HWSNBN forgets what he was arguing:
ReplyDeleteAlso, forget "activism." That is a meaningless term when applied to judges. Either the Court is acting constitutionally or it is not.
"Nevermind...." -- Emily Litella
ROFL.
IMHO, Congress had no Article I authority to enact much of the New Deal and unconstitutionally delegated legislative and judicial powers to an unelected and largely unaccountable executive bureaucracy.
But of course, HWSNBN was arguing that it was the court that had changed (maybe he thinks that we're as dumb as he is and can't use the thumbwheel):
[HWSNBN, originally]: "Until the 1930s, Hamilton was right that the Courts would restrain themselves. However, the New Deal courts started the rewriting of the Constitution which continues today."
Just to refresh his memory. But consistemcy isn't one of HWSNBN's strong points. Nor is LTM (or even STM)....
Cheers,
I want to apologize for a mistype in my only post that was quoted a couple of times. I mistakenly said, "What the courts are doing ...is attempting to protect the rights of the majority from the oppression by a majority." What I meant was to invoke the familiar sentiment of James Madison in Federalist #10, "measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority." (http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext91/feder16.txt) So of course, "protect the rights of the majority" should have been "protect the rights of the minority." I'm hope no one was confused by the misprint, and I'll be more careful from here on out.
ReplyDeleteHere are three examples of why blogs are hard to follow:
In the first post, I said: "But Bart, neither the of the issues you state ARE examples of laws - legislative laws. Bart said: No, they are examples of inventing new constitutional law."
Later on, one of Bart's statements was that "Common law for those who do not know is judge made law. [Courts] are not permitted to amend either the Constitution or statutes through common law."
I misunderstood his statement so I couldn't reply - because it makes no sense. I thought he was saying the courts had no standing to set binding precedents with regard to constitutional law. That position would have extremely frightening ramifications. But it's clearly not Bart's position.
In a later post, Bart agrees that the judicial branch is charged with ensuring laws brought before them are applied equitably to all Americans - "The Court must enforce the checks, balances and guarantees of individual rights actually written in the Constitution or the judicial branch might was well close up shop." (He ignores that this was the entire premise for the decision in the Massachusetts marriage case.)
In order to understand what Bart is saying, I'm focusing on the word "amend". Bart, do you think that, in the Mass. case, somehow there was an amendment added to the constitution?
I ask because I'm having a hard time understanding how your understanding of the judicial branch isn't self-contradictory. Bart, are you saying that courts do or do not have the power to set binding precedents based on the constitution?
Is your position compatible with "The Court must enforce the checks, balances and guarantees of individual rights"?
In the Mass. case, all the legal issues are already resolved. Better minds than mine have presented them. They are based on the right to privacy and the protection against unwarranted state interference, both explicitly guaranteed by the Mass. constitution - again, see Goodridge vs. the Department of Public Health (air-tight, plain logic, resounding in its precedence, and fundamental in its application - see http://www.masslaw.com/signup/opinion.cfm?page=ma/opin/sup/1017603.htm). The only important debate here is what is the purpose of the courts? Are they wholly subservient to the other two branches of government? Are the courts opposed to the individual citizen? Or are they, as indicated by one of Bart's contradictory views, simply a guard dog to be directed by the will of the majority against the individual citizen?
I don't concede any other "points" that Bart made against me, but I don't want sink into a quagmire regarding GLBT oppression with someone who has blinders on. I just wanted to talk about the role of the courts - it's most germane to this thread anyway.
--
Heath