That same day, the ACLU issued a Press Release objecting that Specter was trying "to win administration support by . . . creat[ing] a retroactive exception to criminal liability when warrantless wiretapping is done at the president’s direction under a claim of inherent authority." These reports created a limited but intense backlash -- there was abundant fury in the blogosphere over the notion that Congressional Republicans would attempt to shield the president and his aides from criminal liability arising out of their illegal eavesdropping conduct, and CNN's Jack Cafferty said that Specter "has turned out to be yet another gutless Republican worm cowering in the face of pressure from the administration and fellow Republicans. "
But almost immediately, that controversy became extremely confused and muddled because Specter went on CNN on Sunday and categorically and unambiguously denied the truth of these reports. When asked directly by Wolf Blitzer if he had proposed "blanket amnesty to anyone who authorized these wiretaps," Specter said:
Absolutely not. That was an erroneous report. If anybody has violated the law, they'll be held accountable, both as to criminal conduct and as to civil conduct. And in no way did I promise amnesty or immunity or letting anybody off the hook.
As I wrote on that day, the absoluteness of Specter's denial made it seem likely that the Post had simply erred in its reporting. Although both the Post and the ACLU reported that his legislation contained such a provision, Specter so categorically denied on national television that he had done any such thing, something he seemed unlikely to do if his proposed legislation really did contain such amnesty. This conflict could not be resolved over the weekend -- or until today -- because Specter's marked-up legislation referenced by the Post was not publicly available and, therefore, could not be reviewed to determine whether Specter was telling the truth.
I have now obtained (with the help of the ACLU) a copy of Specter's marked-up proposed legislation (.pdf), which makes quite clear that Specter simply was not telling the truth when he denied proposing amnesty to the administration. The bill in question was one which Specter substituted last week in the Judiciary Committee for the prior legislation he proposed back in March (the reason the new version was not available online was because -- according to the ACLU -- he introduced it only in the Committee, but not yet on the Senate floor).
In sum, Specter's legislation amends the provision of FISA which provides for criminal penalties, and then, astonishingly, makes those revisions retroactive all the way back to 1978 (when FISA was enacted). The effect and almost certainly the intent of those revisions is to immunize the President and anyone acting under his authority from criminal liability for violating FISA -- just as the Post and the ACLU correctly reported, and just as Specter falsely denied.
Section 801 of Specter's legislation is entitled "Executive Authority," and it specifically amends the criminal punishment provision of FISA (which is Section 109(a), (50 U.S.C. 1809(a)), as follows:
(1) General . . .
(B) FISA. -- Section 109(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1809(a)) is amended --
(i) in paragraph (1), by inserting "or under the constitutional authority of the executive" after "authorized by statute"; and
(ii) in paragraph (2), by inserting "or executed under the constitutional authority of the executive" after "authorized by statute."
(2) Retroactive effect -- The amendments made by paragraph (1) shall be construed to have the same effective date as the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978.
Currently, Section 109(a) of FISA provides that "A person is guilty of an offense if he intentionally - (1) engages in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute . . . ." That means that anyone who eavesdropping on Americans without complying with the warrant requirements of the statute (FISA) is committing a felony. To amend this provision to include the phrase "or under the constitutional authority of the executive" after "authorized by statute," makes it legal to eavesdrop not only in compliance with FISA (i.e., by obtaining a warrant), but also under the "constitutional authority" of the President to engage in warrantless eavesdropping even if that warrantless eavesdropping is prohibited by FISA (which it is).
Put another way, since 1978 in this country, there has been only one way to legally eavesdrop on Americans -- by complying with FISA. This amendment adds a second way to legally eavesdrop on Americans -- without warrants, under the President's direction. And astonishingly, the amendments are made retroactive all the way back to 1978, which means that the President's illegal behavior during the last four years in ordering eavesdropping without complying with FISA's requirements will be cleansed of their criminal nature and made legal, as a result of this newly created "second way" of legally eavesdropping on Americans.
To make matters even clearer, Section 801 of Specter's proposed bill specifically provides that "Nothing in this Act shall be construed to limit the constitutional authority of the President to gather foreign intelligence information or monitor the activities or communications of any person reasonably believed to be associated with a foreign enemy of the United States." That language tracks precisely the language used to define the parameters of the warrantless eavesdropping program, and it makes crystal clear that its intent is to declare legal the NSA program. And that provision is one of the provisions that has retroactive application back to 1978, which means the Specter bill goes back in time -- 28 years -- and transforms FISA from a statute which has always regulated the president's eavesdropping power into one which places no limits on that eavesdropping power of any kind.
I have already written about why retroactive amnesty is so pernicious and is a true sign of lawlessness. And I've also set forth the reasons why it is constitutionally dubious, at best, for Congress to attempt to retroactively legalize plainly criminal conduct on the part of our highest government officials by simply retroactively changing the criminal law to comport with their behavior. There is no point in repeating those arguments here, which really ought to provoke all sorts of outrage.
But what is extremely noteworthy -- and worth emphasizing -- is that Arlen Specter amended his legislation to include the most extremist provision imaginable (retroactive amnesty for criminal behavior), all in order to please the President's allies on the Judiciary Committee (led by Sen. Kyl) -- who, as always, are marching to the dictates of the White House, which obviously is willing to accept new FISA legislation only if it provides them with immunity from criminal prosecution for their lawbreaking.
But even more notable still is the fact that after engaging in this behavior, Specter went on national television and dishonestly denied that he was doing that. I suppose it's theoretically possible (although highly unlikely, to put it mildly) that Specter, a lawyer and former prosecutor, does not realize that his legislation contains an amnesty provision. Or perhaps he thinks there is some strained semantic justification for distinguishing this provision from what he means by "amnesty" (I could devise a couple of arguments to support such a distinction, but none which are anything other than patently frivolous -- see, for instance, here and here). But what seems far more likely -- really the only reasonable scenario -- is that Specter was so embarrassed by his amnesty provision once the Post revealed it that he simply denied that his legislation contained it even though it so plainly does.
Specter's dishonesty aside, these shenanigans reveal what the White House is really after. Their Senatorial minions are going to support NSA legislation only if it contains full amnesty for the lawbreakers in the administration. The White House will then "reluctantly" agree to a newly revised FISA, and will have full immunity from criminal prosecution. Specter will be the primary sponsor of this, and the media will drool over his "maverick" status and suggest that it's unreasonable to argue that Specter is acting as the obedient White House shill that he always, in the end, becomes. If even the independent, rule-of-law-loving Specter advocates amensty, then doesn't that show that it's reasonable?
The White House insists that it has clear legal authority for warrantless eavesdropping, so why are retroactive amendments to FISA's criminal provisions necessary at all? And if we stand by and allow the Republicans in Congress to legislatively exonerate the President and his aides from breaking the law, it is hard to imagine what we won't stand by and tolerate. If the President can break the law and then use his party's control over the Congress to grant him legislative immunity from the consequences of his criminal behavior, no hyperbole is required to say that the rule of law exists only as an illusion.
Specter is an embarrassment.
ReplyDeleteHis started with the magic bullet theory and seemingly will close with him bending over for the Bush Administration. He will be mocked in history books for years to come.
Glenn, your outrage is correct. We have seen this time and time again from Senator Specter. The timeline of events continue to be the same in his reactions. On day one the Bush administration is found to have their hands in the cookie jar. Later on that day, Senator Specter promises a federal investigation and testimony in front of his committee. Somewhere between day three and a five, we learn that there will be no testimony and no investigation.
ReplyDeleteSenator Specter has shown a unique ability to have backbone on day one and to be completely spineless days later. The Bush administration and the rest of the Republican Party must've found $90,000 in his freezer!
One has to wonder: what do Li'l Butch and Big DICK (and their lapdogs) think will happen if they successfully expand the unilateral power of the President's office and simultaneously formalize policies which will shield the President's office from any possibility of punishment for abuse of that power?
ReplyDeleteDo they really wish to see a succeeding President with whose policies they disagree wielding such power, shielded so completely? Are they so bereft of concern for the future that they care only for that which they can grab for themselves now, without regard for those who come after?
Or do they somehow think they will ALWAYS be in power, either directly or through hand-picked or like-minded successors? (Preznit Jeb, anyone? Commander Condi?)
I would not be surprised if they manufacture a crisis in order to "postpone" the next election in order to "insure continuity," (as that prick Giuliani tried to do after 9/11, just months before his term as mayor was due to terminate...New Yorkers were too canny to fall for Rudy's baloney), thus insuring their continuance in power. At the least, I think they're confident enough of their control over the election process--after two successfully fixed elections in a row--I'd bet they are counting on their retaining power, even if in some reconfigured array of front personalities.
I can't wait to hear the troll spin on this one..it'll surely have more twists than an advanced yoga class...
ReplyDeletePrediction. If Bart responds to this posting it will be to say that there is nothing wrong with Specter' actions.
ReplyDeleteAll is well and good in Bush Land, there is no wrong and the tax breaks keep on comin'.
How can the trolls seriously try to continue to say the President didn't break the law. There wouldn't be this retroactive CYA unless they did something wrong.
ReplyDeleteIf the administration really believed they were in the clear, this wouldn't be necessary.
I'm sure the next rationalization will be "Oh yeah Bush had the power to legally eavesdrop, but uh, this privision is just in case those activist courts try to twist the law ..yeah thats it.."
whatever..you don't stick a provision in like this retroactively unless you know the ice is thin.
friggin Tories..
Shorter Specter:
ReplyDeleteGee, I didn't think anyone was going to actually READ the legislation. After all, no one read the Patriot Act.
Ragged and meandering analysis of the Specter/Feinstein legislation. How many different bills has Specter proposed on this subject?
ReplyDeleteThe bill is here (text) and here (pdf)
Bold Italic = Removed text from current legislation
Italic = Direct quotes from Specter/Feinstein
If at first you don't succeed...
S. 3001- To ensure that all electronic surveillance of United States persons for foreign intelligence purposes is conducted pursuant to individualized court-issued orders, to streamline the procedures of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, and for other purposes.
...and for other purposes.
You guys didn't think this bill was just going to ask the president "can you pretty please follow the law?" There are other agendas at play.
Besides reiterating that the President needs to go through FISA to spy on US citizens and that the President needs to inform the intelligence committees about what he is doing, we also have some pretty big changes to current law.
-- Changes to the provision of TITLE 18 - PART I - CHAPTER 119 - 2511 that gives legal cover to "providers of wire or electronic communication service" that facilitate government eavesdropping.
___
2 (B) a certification in writing by a person specified in section 2518 (7) of this title or the Attorney General of the United States that no warrant or court order is required by law, that all statutory requirements requirements under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et 1 seq.), this chapter, or chapters 121 or 206 of this title have been met, and that the specified assistance is required, ...
___
This allows the requirement to be met by only adhering to FISA, all other (pesky telecom) laws do not apply anymore. Maybe a hint that the USA Today story is true.
-- Extends the time to get a warrant with an emergency order from 3 to 7 days.
TITLE 50 > CHAPTER 36 > SUBCHAPTER I > - 1805 (f)
Section 105(f) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1805(f)) is amended by striking ‘‘72 hours’’ both places it appears and inserting ‘‘168 hours’’.
-- Allows the Attorney General to delegate FISA applications to the Deputy Attorney General and the Assistant Attorney General for National Security.
(f) The Attorney General may delegate the authority to approve an application under this section for an order approving electronic surveillance under this title to each of the following:
‘‘(1) The Deputy Attorney General.
‘‘(2) The Assistant Attorney General for National Security.’
-- There now would be no limit to the number of FISA judges. The Chief Justice could name any number of Article Three judges he thought appropriate.
(2) In addition to the judges designated under paragraph (1), the Chief Justice of the United States may designate as judges of the court established by paragraph (1) such judges appointed under Article III of the Constitution of the United States as the Chief Justice determines appropriate in order to provide for the prompt and timely consideration under section 105 of applications under section 104 for electronic surveillance under this title. Any judge designated under this paragraph shall be designated publicly.
-- FISA currently allows 15 days of of electronic surveillance with out a warrant following a declaration of war. This bill would allow an "authorization for the use of military force..." and "A national emergency created by attack upon the United States..." to qualify for the fifteen day exemption.
___
Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for a period not to exceed fifteen calendar days following a declaration of war by the Congress.following any of the following:
‘‘(1) A declaration of war by the Congress.
‘‘(2) An authorization for the use of military force within the meaning of section 2(c)(2) of the War Powers Resolution (50 U.S.C. 1541(c)(2)).
‘‘(3) A national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or the Armed Forces within the meaning of section 2(c)(3) of the War Powers Resolution (50 U.S.C. 1541(c)(3)).’’.
___
-- Back to the well again.
SEC. 203. ADDITIONAL AUTHORITY FOR EMERGENCY ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE.
Arlen Specter, the sneaky bastard, can't help but try to legalize the president's "Surveillance Programs."
‘‘(g)(1)(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this title and subject to the provisions of this subsection, the Attorney General may, with the concurrence of the Director of National Intelligence, appoint appropriate supervisory or executive personnel within the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the National Security Agency to authorize electronic surveillance on a United States person in the United States on an emergency basis pursuant to the provisions of this subsection.
‘‘(B) For purposes of this subsection, an intelligence agent or employee acting under the supervision of a supervisor or executive appointed under subparagraph (A) may conduct emergency electronic surveillance under this subsection if such supervisor or executive reasonably determines that—
‘‘(i) an emergency situation exists with respect to the employment of electronic surveillance to obtain foreign intelligence information before an order authorizing such surveillance can with due diligence be obtained; and
‘‘(ii) the factual basis exists for the issuance of an order approving such surveillance under this title.
The bill crafts a new "emergency basis" provision that allows the Attorney General and the Director of National Intelligence to appoint "super advisory or executive personnel within.." the FBI and the NSA to authorize employees to "conduct emergency electronic surveillance..."
Is that convoluted enough? If we step through the reporting requirements the process becomes clearer.
- A super advisor tells an agent or employee to eavesdrop on a U.S. citizen without a warrant.
- The super advisors within the FBI and NSA have 24 hours to report the surveillance to the Attorney General or his two delegates from above.
- A review of the surveillance by the Attorney General or delegates must happen within 3 days.
- If approved, the Attorney General or delegates have 7 days to submit it the the FISA court.
- If declined, the super advisors can only resubmit with a change in "facts" or "circumstance." Also the Attorney General shall not be required, under section 106(j), to notify any United States person of the fact that the electronic surveillance covered by such determination was conducted before the termination of the surveillance under that clause. However, the official making such determination shall notify the court established by section 103(a) of such determination, and shall also provide notice of such determination in the first report that is submitted under section 108(a) after such determination is made.
This allows employees at the FBI and NSA the ability the eavesdrop from 24-72 hours without a warrant based simply on their own decision. With simply the say so of the Attorney General or delegates we now have 7 days without a warrant.
If a FISA warrant is not obtained the information from the surveillance is subject to TITLE 50 > CHAPTER 36 > SUBCHAPTER I > - 1805 (f)
Specifically this language from FISA:
___
In the event that such application for approval is denied, or in any other case where the electronic surveillance is terminated and no order is issued approving the surveillance, no information obtained or evidence derived from such surveillance shall be received in evidence or otherwise disclosed in any trial, hearing, or other proceeding in or before any court, grand jury, department, office, agency, regulatory body, legislative committee, or other authority of the United States, a State, or political subdivision thereof, and no information concerning any United States person acquired from such surveillance shall subsequently be used or disclosed in any other manner by Federal officers or employees without the consent of such person, except with the approval of the Attorney General if the information indicates a threat of death or serious bodily harm to any person.
___
The problems are the bolded parts.
This process sounds suspiciously similar to the administration's description of how one of the "Surveillance Programs" operates. This bill is another attempt to legalize the president's current eavesdropping. Instead of selling this bill under the cover of Judicial review this bill is being sold as the Boland amendment II. With Feinstein as a sponsor we now have official support for Bush's programs from the democratic leadership.
Glenn, this is really astonishing. I don't even know what to say.
ReplyDeleteEJ, thanks for the speech.
An addendum to my post: I'm aware that, on an immediate level, the actors in this criminal administration are hoping to insure their crimes remain undiscovered, or, if revealed, that they cannot be punished for those crimes. Their actions and those of their quislings in Congress scream nothing other than an attempt to cover up their criminal conspiracy and all related acts.
ReplyDeleteHowever, one still has to wonder: do they somehow plan a continuance of the "Bush Administration" under other names? The King is Dead; Long Live the King.
Total non sequitur, but what's the deal with your Boston visit?
ReplyDeleteReading? Signing? Both?
Will books be available for sale at the premises, or should I make sure to buy one ahead of time?
Any schmoozing time planned for afterwards?
Just trying to make plans...
It's things like this that make me wonder if Bush plans to suspend the 2008 Presidential election on National Security grounds until the Global War on Terror is won. I don't think he can afford to have even another Republican sitting in the White House, for fear of being prosecuted for his misdeeds.
ReplyDeleteOh! I'm outraged! I have been for quite some time!
ReplyDeleteThe problem is, will "we the people" be outraged as a whole? Doubtful!
The question is, then, not anymore what congress, either party will do or not do, but just how stupid will the american people allow themselves to be? They do not, except for the left and some libertarians, speak up. Someone answers a polling question and they say "I've done my duty" and go back to watching american idol, all the while the country is being taken apart by the biggest hypocrites and liars I have ever seen in my lifetime in government.
I will, nevertheless, hold final judgement to myself regarding the degree of stupidity of the American public until november.
In the meantime, I think that my hope is waning that the public will recover from it's "persistant vegetative state"!
SPECTER WROTE: My bill would not grant retroactive amnesty or immunity for any past violations of law. It would explicitly recognize the president's Article II power, providing it meets the balancing test. My bill, like any statute, would not be able to add or subtract from the president's Article II power. It is what it is.
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly what I was referring to when I said that I could strain to invent arguments to distinguish Specter's bill from "amnesty," but none that weren't frivolous. Specter's excuse makes no sense for two principal reasons:
(1) The whole point of the NSA scandal is that a President may have the constitutional authority to engage in certain actions (such as warrantless eavesdropping for foreign intelligence gathering), but once Congress regulates or limits that authority -- as it did under FISA -- then the President has no right to violate that law in exercising his powers. That's the whole point of Youngstown -- that the President can engage in certain acts constitutionally in the absence of Congressional limits, but once Congress imposes limits, the President is constrained by them.
What we have currently under FISA is a situation where the President claims an Article II power (eavesdropping) but Congress has LIMITED that power (by requiring warrants for it). Thus, currently, we have the Youngstown situation -- the Court would have to decide whether the President can ignore Congressional limits on his power.
But Specter's bill changes all of that. It specifically provides that nothing in the bill is intended to limit the President's inherent eavesdropping powers in any way, which means that Congress is saying that there is no longer a conflict between FISA and the President's "inherent authority." Instead, the President's "inherent authority" -- which was always limited by FISA -- no longer is. Instead, the President can exercise that authority with no limits at all.
That is the equivalent of saying that FISA no longer seeks to limit the President's conduct, i.e., that FISA cannot be violated by the President. And by making it retroactive, it is the full functional equivalent of amnesty.
(2)If -- as he claims -- all Specter were saying was that the Bush Administration's Article II defense may be true -- i.e., that the President has the right to eavesdrop without warrants and nothing Congres can do can interfere with that right -- then there is absolutely no point whatsoever in amending the criminal provisions of FISA. If the President's Article II power really trumps FISA, then that would be so whether FISA was amended or not.
Thus, the only possible reason to amend that provision of FISA is to add a new mechanism for the President to eavesdrop legally that does not currently exist -- i.e., to provide that one need not comply with FISA but, instead, merely act at the President's direction. It is a retroactive declaration that FISA no longer limits the President's eavesdropping activities and therefore no finding of criminal behavior is possible. That's what is called amnesty.
Total non sequitur, but what's the deal with your Boston visit?
ReplyDeleteLIS - It's currently scheduled for next Wednesday-Friday. I will post specific events as they are planned. I always stay after events to talk. Would definitely look forward to meeting you.
Glenn wrote:
ReplyDeleteAs I wrote on that day, the absoluteness of Specter's denial made it seem likely that the Post had simply erred in its reporting.
Glenn, you wrote more than that. You called the Washington Post "completely unreliable" and you said that the Post "care[s] little about the accuracy of its reports on this topic."
But as it turns out, the Post was completely reliable about this story (and it promptly corrected an earlier error in another story, as you acknowledged). In fact, the Post and reporter Walter Pincus did a great public service by publishing their account.
This fact is not reflected in the misleading title or the body of your blog item. (See The completely unreliable [sic] Washington Post.)
I was very impressed by your presentation at Drinking Liberally last night.
Some provisional notes (without having seen the "Specter substitute"):
ReplyDelete1. Congress cannot by statute amend the Constitution so as to give the president "constitutional power" that he does not already have. Courts would be free to ignore any claim that this law somehow "made" the NSA program "constitutional." But any court could just as easily use this new law as an excuse to hide behind ("Congress's view is persuasive" blah blah blah) and let them get away with everything they've done so far - and anything they ever want to do in the future. Or does Specter imagine this Supreme Court saying someday that "it doesn't matter what Congress thought the Constitution means, the NSA program is illegal anyway"?
2. Of course, if these new provisions are enacted, there may be no practical way to ever challenge them in court, given the "state secrets" scam the administration is now running repeatedly and so far successfully.
3. This all certainly looks, smells and feels like a "get out of jail free" card, but has Specter left just enough weasel room for himself - and maybe for a court willing to act like a court? As a matter of statutory construction, does the bill actually say, or does it "plainly" mean, in substance, that "the existing constitutional powers of the President are in fact broad enough to cover the NSA program"? Or does it just tease with some equivocal or ambiguous hint that "it's not a crime if it's within the constituitonal powers of the President (but who knows what they are or if they even exist)"?
4. Could this new version, once publicized - whether or not it is ever enacted - be intended for use as fodder for the "FISA has always been unconstitutional" talking point? ("See, even Congress thinks FISA was infringing on the President!") Can we expect to hear Specter piously claiming "oh I never meant that"?
5. The real question is not "does the President's constitutional power supersede the statute" - as Specter now dishonestly insinuates. The real question is: Can the President spy on American citizens at will without any legislative regulation or judicial recourse at all? If Specter or any of the others up there think the answer to this question is yes, then why aren't they proposing a corrective constitutional amendment? These people will happily amend the Constitution at the drop of a hat for a hundred specious reasons, but not to say that the Constitution really means it? Of course, if Bush doesn't have to obey the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments, why should we expect him to care about obeying the "Twenty-Eighth"?
6. In any event, Specter is now a confirmed liar (as if he weren't before) and should be treated accordingly from now on. If Specter says it's raining, go to the window yourself.
Some provisional notes (without having seen the "Specter substitute"):
ReplyDelete1. Congress cannot by statute amend the Constitution so as to give the president "constitutional power" that he does not already have. Courts would be free to ignore any claim that this law somehow "made" the NSA program "constitutional." But any court could just as easily use this new law as an excuse to hide behind ("Congress's view is persuasive" blah blah blah) and let them get away with everything they've done so far - and anything they ever want to do in the future. Or does Specter imagine this Supreme Court saying someday that "it doesn't matter what Congress thought the Constitution means, the NSA program is illegal anyway"?
2. Of course, if these new provisions are enacted, there may be no practical way to ever challenge them in court, given the "state secrets" scam the administration is now running repeatedly and so far successfully.
3. This all certainly looks, smells and feels like a "get out of jail free" card, but has Specter left just enough weasel room for himself - and maybe for a court willing to act like a court? As a matter of statutory construction, does the bill actually say, or does it "plainly" mean, in substance, that "the existing constitutional powers of the President are in fact broad enough to cover the NSA program"? Or does it just tease with some equivocal or ambiguous hint that "it's not a crime if it's within the constituitonal powers of the President (but who knows what they are or if they even exist)"?
4. Could this new version, once publicized - whether or not it is ever enacted - be intended for use as fodder for the "FISA has always been unconstitutional" talking point? ("See, even Congress thinks FISA was infringing on the President!") Can we expect to hear Specter piously claiming "oh I never meant that"?
5. The real question is not "does the President's constitutional power supersede the statute" - as Specter now dishonestly insinuates. The real question is: Can the President spy on American citizens at will without any legislative regulation or judicial recourse at all? If Specter or any of the others up there think the answer to this question is yes, then why aren't they proposing a corrective constitutional amendment? These people will happily amend the Constitution at the drop of a hat for a hundred specious reasons, but not to say that the Constitution really means it? Of course, if Bush doesn't have to obey the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments, why should we expect him to care about obeying the "Twenty-Eighth"?
6. In any event, Specter is now a confirmed liar (as if he weren't before) and should be treated accordingly from now on. If Specter says it's raining, go to the window yourself.
anonymous:
ReplyDeletePrediction. If Bart responds to this posting it will be to say that there is nothing wrong with Specter' actions.
Fool. I'll school you all again. What Dubya's doing is all legal -- and as a career criminal prosecutor, I know that for a fact -- and Specter's bill is pointless and un-Constitutional. And if you don't just STFU and let Dubya do what he wants, we're all going to die!!!
It is funny to see mention of the possibility of suspending elections, because that possibility is one of the first things that came to mind when this theory of commander-in-chief infallibility came to light. If you accept that the President can set aside any law, treaty, or constitutional provision he wants based on his personal determination that it is in the interests of national security, then why are the statutes and constitutional provisions relating to elections and term limits for the President off limits? The inclination is to say they'd never dare to do this, but based on what we have seen the last few years, why the fuck not? And you'd like to think there would be some kind of revolt if that happened, but would there? Congress would bitch and moan, but then what? Impeach Bush? What if he refuses to recognize the impeachment, again on national security grounds? To be clear, I don't think this will actually happen (honestly, I don't know WHY I think that), but there is no LEGAL reason it could not happen, if you accept the unitary executive bullshit they have been selling us for years now.
ReplyDeleteDidn't FISA specifically eliminate a similar clause from Title III?
ReplyDeleteSection 801 of Specter's legislation is entitled
ReplyDelete"Executive Authority," and it specifically amends the criminal punishment provision of FISA (which is Section 109(a), (50 U.S.C. 1809(a)), as follows:
(1) General . . .
(B) FISA. -- Section 109(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1809(a)) is amended --
(i) in paragraph (1), by inserting "or under the constitutional authority of the executive" after "authorized by statute"; and
(ii) in paragraph (2), by inserting "or executed under the constitutional authority of the executive" after "authorized by statute."
(2) Retroactive effect -- The amendments made by paragraph (1) shall be construed to have the same effective date as the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978.
This has nothing at all to do with granting Mr. Bush "amnesty" and everything with providing a fig leaf to cover the unconstitutionality of FISA when applied to intelligence gathering.
The amendment makes it appear that the Congress is beneficently granting the President permission to exercise his own Article II powers to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering.
In reality, the amendment and its fully retroactive application removes the issue of whether Congress exceeded its Article I power in enacting FISA in part to limit or eliminate the President's Article II power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering.
After all the testimony Specter heard before his committee, especially by the FISA court judges, there is little doubt that the President does possess this plenary power.
As Specter himself noted:
I believe the program violates the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Notwithstanding that violation, the president might have the authority to order the surveillance under his inherent Article II constitutional authority, which supersedes a statute.
A determination of whether the president has such power depends on the court's balancing the national security interests against the Fourth Amendment's prohibition of unreasonable searches and seizures. The president does not have a "blank check." The determination of constitutionality is up to the court, which is uniquely qualified to make that judgment because of its unblemished record for secrecy and expertise.
My bill would not grant retroactive amnesty or immunity for any past violations of law. It would explicitly recognize the president's Article II power, providing it meets the balancing test. My bill, like any statute, would not be able to add or subtract from the president's Article II power. It is what it is.
If the President has no power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering under the 4th Amendment and Article II, as many of you folks claim, then this amendment provides no protection whatsoever to Mr. Bush.
Glenn Greenwald said...
ReplyDeleteSpecter's excuse makes no sense for two principal reasons:
(1) The whole point of the NSA scandal is that a President may have the constitutional authority to engage in certain actions (such as warrantless eavesdropping for foreign intelligence gathering), but once Congress regulates or limits that authority -- as it did under FISA -- then the President has no right to violate that law in exercising his powers.
Maybe Mr. Specter simply does not agree with this argument. Youngstown itself certainly does not hold that Congress may legislatively limit the President's Article II power unless Congress is exercising a superior Article I power like regulating domestic property seizure.
(2)If -- as he claims -- all Specter were saying was that the Bush Administration's Article II defense may be true -- i.e., that the President has the right to eavesdrop without warrants and nothing Congres can do can interfere with that right -- then there is absolutely no point whatsoever in amending the criminal provisions of FISA.
You have argued that FISA might need to be amended to make some or all of the NSA program legal.
This is simply the reverse of that sentiment.
Specter is attempting to make FISA legal so an overzealous court does not strike down the entire statute as unconstitutional.
I guess I just don't get it. The revised statute does not expressly expand the "constitutional authority of the President". So it is still a legal issue if the president has the authority not to get a warrant. Is this what Specter is thinking, that the revision has no real legal effect?
ReplyDelete[Just saw EJ's post. Think that's what Specter thinks it means]
Now, this FISC determination. How will that take place? My memory is FISC is a secret court. Who will prosecute? How will we know what was considered or not? Will we get a formal decision? Will it be appealable?
Have the provisions for the FISC determination changed in the mark-up?
Glenn, you wrote more than that. You called the Washington Post "completely unreliable" and you said that the Post "care[s] little about the accuracy of its reports on this topic."
ReplyDeleteAs I made clear at the time, my view that the Post cared little about the accuracy of its reports on this topic was based primarily on the fact that (as I mistakenly believed) they had failed to correct the significant errors which I brought to their attention with regard to their March 17 front-page story. In fact, they corrected it -- belatedly and half-heartedly -- 5 days later (in the online version - I don't know about the print version), and once I learned of that, I immediately noted my error, corrected it, and retracted my criticism of them. There isn't much more I or anyone can do than that.
But as it turns out, the Post was completely reliable about this story (and it promptly corrected an earlier error in another story, as you acknowledged). In fact, the Post and reporter Walter Pincus did a great public service by publishing their account.
I'm aware of that, and said exactly this in my post:
"The effect and almost certainly the intent of those revisions is to immunize the President and anyone acting under his authority from criminal liability for violating FISA -- just as the Post and the ACLU correctly reported, and just as Specter falsely denied.
As I've said many times, everyone -- particularly people who post every day with no editor -- are going to make mistakes in what they write -- both mistakes in fact and in judgment. The test of someone's integrity and credibility isn't whether someone makes those mistakes, but how they respond when they realize they have. It was only possible today to know that the Post was right and Specter was wrong. It wasn't easy to get the marked-up bill but I did because I wanted to know who was right. And as soon as I saw that the Post was right, I said so (and linked to my prior criticism of them). You seem to be implying that more should be done but I don't know what more could be done.
I was very impressed by your presentation at Drinking Liberally last night.
Thank you.
I'm not sure what's worse, Specter being a spineless knave with no integrity, or him trying to trick the American public with a pseudo bill.
ReplyDeleteLike McCain's anti-torture bill that allowed torture, this bill would allow Specter to say to the public, "I'm concerned with the program," while he actually sanctions it. Its a lie. A lie designed to trick people into voting against their interests.
Specter doesn't deserve his office. How can anyone with a sense of pride act like this?
Will the issue before the FISC be whether the congress has the right to limit the executive authority, or simply whether the executive can do what he did without violating the 4th amendment?
ReplyDeleteThis seems silly on three levels:
ReplyDelete1) If the President can unilaterally order wiretaps, we don't need FISA. Might as well do away with it all together, save some money on judges. Lousy big government.
2) Even if Specter were to do a 180 and change the bill so it specifically criminalizes what Bush is doing, and by some miracle it passed, Bush could simply smirk and write a big NOT! at the bottom.
3) It sets us up for an endless battle of the courts ruling the absurd reading of Article II unconstitutional, followed by the Congress finding that the courts have no standing to make that declaration, followed by the courts declaring that finding unconstitutional...and meanwhile, President Bush will continue to be writing NOT! at the bottom of both of their briefs.
Until it's firmly established that the President is accountable to someone, it's not going to matter what he's accountable for.
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteThis is an important issue, and I'm not a lawyer, so you'll have to check me on this.
Could Specter's amending FISA be read to say "If the courts find that the President has certain inherent powers, then FISA still stands for anything outside of those powers, as delineated by the court"?
It seems to me that, if FISA was found to encroach on the President's powers, it would be ruled unconstitutional. Could Specter be trying to avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
I don't trust Specter. I don't trust any Republican, these days; they've supported a costly war that has harmed US Interests, they've supported torture, and they've supported indefinite detention without a fair hearing. They haven't investigated potential crimes enough to show that there's nothing to hide, and that is enough to make me convined there is something to hide.
But my reading of this suggests that it's possible that Specter's playing fairly... that he wants to make sure FISA survives a court challenge that declares the President does have certain inherent spying ability.
I'm with the other David. How is this not an ex post facto clause?
ReplyDeleteAlex said...
ReplyDeleteOh! I'm outraged! I have been for quite some time!
The problem is, will "we the people" be outraged as a whole? Doubtful!
(...)
In the meantime, I think that my hope is waning that the public will recover from it's "persistant vegetative state"!
Confederate Yankee says: "Liberalism is a persistent vegetative state." Maybe he's right.
Specter is a crime against humanity. Cafferty had it right: a worm. I would settle for illegal eavesdropping if a law would be passed making it illegal for anyone to be Arlen Specter, including himself.
ReplyDeleterobert 1014:
ReplyDeleteDo they really wish to see a succeeding President with whose policies they disagree wielding such power, shielded so completely?
This is an irrelevant matter as far as they are concerned because they know no succeeding President will ever be elected with whose policies they disagree. Club members all play by the same rules.
Are they so bereft of concern for the future that they care only for that which they can grab for themselves now, without regard for those who come after?
Not entirely. They know nobody will "come after" who poses any threat to them. Those who "come after" will love all those enhanced powers. Saves them the trouble of setting them up.
Ex-Specterate's Bill doesn't "save" FISA from court-ruled destruction, it guts is. It allows for a President, forevermore, to simply order spying under the aegis of "national security" and, like magic, it's OK. He can order it for ANYTHING while throwing a bogus "national security blanket blah blah Article II" blanket over it.
ReplyDeleteFISA is legal. It has stood unchallenged by ALL presidents, up until this one, since its inception. The only way it will fail judicial muster is if the GOP has, in fact, managed to so pack the court with fellow travelers at this point that the SCOTUS will ignore the Constitution for the sake of the GOP.
gg wrote: You seem to be implying that more should be done but I don't know what more could be done.
ReplyDelete100% credit for owning your mistakes, Glenn but there is a gap between admitting you were wrong and apologizing to Walter Pincus and/or the Post.
This was the sense I got when reading Gator's comment.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteCan you get a version of the bill in text or a PDF that is not locked for copying or the password to the PDF file that will allow copying?
This is the second PDF provided by the ACLU that was locked for copying. The first was the initial Specter/Feinstein legislation. They need to understand the DRM issue better.
The idea that a proposed bill provided by the ACLU would be in a format that does not allow people to copy from the document is both absurd and scary.
LongHairedWeirdo,
ReplyDelete"It seems to me that, if FISA was found to encroach on the President's powers, it would be ruled unconstitutional. Could Specter be trying to avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater?"
Griffin Bell, Jimmy Carter's Attorney General, [Carter signed FISA into law in 1978] made the same observations about FISA when testifying before Congress nearly 30 years ago back in 1977:
[Washington Times]
"When Mr. Bell testified in favor of FISA, he told Congress that while the measure doesn't explicitly acknowledge the 'inherent power of the president to conduct electronic surveillance,' it 'does not take away the power of the president under the Constitution.'"
True then, still true today. Just ask the current Attorney General...
bart said:
ReplyDeleteThis has nothing at all to do with granting Mr. Bush "amnesty" and everything with providing a fig leaf to cover the unconstitutionality of FISA when applied to intelligence gathering.
And so we begin again...
Bart, have you come up with any ideas about how to check Executive abuse? The last time I asked you were stumped.
As you mentioned, withdrawing funding for all NSA wiretapping is an option, of course, but as I said, that's impractical. Nobody wants to deny the President any ability to conduct electronic surveillance. On the other hand, as our history books show, no oversight of electronic surveillance inevitably leads to Executive abuse of this power.
So, bart, what to do? This is where you really need to think through your idea that FISA is un-Constitutional. If FISA is un-Constitutional, then what do propose in its place? How do you propose to Legislatively prevent Executive abuse of surveillance power without completely stripping the Executive of any surveillance power?
Glenn said
ReplyDeletePut another way, since 1978 in this country, there has been only one way to legally eavesdrop on Americans -- by complying with FISA.
Actually, there are two, if you count title III (chapter 36 of title 18, authorizing warrants to investigate certain crimes), or three, if you count the Authorization to Use Force (AUMF)(as the Administration does). Title 18 contains the exclusivity clause, which says the government can only conduct wiretaps pursuant to title III and FISA (18 U.S.C. 2511). The Administration reads the language in 50 U.S.C. 1809 "or any other statute" to put the AUMF within the exclusivity clause. Does it not follow that the proposed presidential authority exception would also fall inside the exclusivity provision? Wouldn't that reading gut both title III and FISA? Would the feds ever need any kind of a warrant to listen in on phone calls?
18 U.S.C. 2511 used to contain a clause clarifying that title III did not "limit[] the President’s constitutional power to gather necessary intelligence to protect the national security." But FISA deleted that part of it. Specter's bill seems to want to unrepeal that language, except without the reference to national security.
the fly said:
ReplyDelete[FISA] 'does not take away the power of the president under the Constitution.'"
True then, still true today. Just ask the current Attorney General...
So, fly, you believe FISA was (and still is) Constitutional, since it does not encroach on Presidential power?
David said...
ReplyDeleteI'm with the other David. How is this not an ex post facto clause?
It doesn't increase the penalty for violating FISA. If it increased the penalty retroactively, it probably would violate the Ex Post Facto Clause.
Um, Mr. Greenwald...
ReplyDeleteI believe that you meant to write that Sen. Spector LIED.
"And in no way did I promise amnesty or immunity or letting anybody off the hook," doesn't really allow for any lawerly reading of the word "amnesty."
or under the constitutional authority of the executive
ReplyDeleteSo Specter says that this clause allows the court "to determine the constitutionality of the president's electronic surveillance program." And that the program may be illegal under statute, BUT the President "might have the authority to order the surveillance under his inherent Article II constitutional authority." (quotes from ej's post.)
I think Specter is a snivelling weasel, but I don't immediately see that he's lying. He says that the legislation is in fact not amnesty for people violating FISA, because as long as said violation is not covered under the president's constitutional authority, then it can be prosecuted.
I feel like I'm missing the point because to me, it makes sense. Specter's law implies that the courts need to rule whether the President has the constitutional authority to order this surveillance; if he does NOT have such authority, then the clause introduced to FISA would not apply and anybody caught violating the statute could be charged with a felony.
One thing that has always bothered me about the manoevering to "fix" FISA is the plain contradition that it implies:
ReplyDelete- If what the President is currently doing is legal, any change to FISA is irrelevant
- Conversely, if there is a genuine need to "fix" FISA, that implies the President is breaking the law
I always thought it would make much more sense, if you were an apologist for the White House's wiretapping, to insist that changing FISA is a waste of time, since the President is allowed to ignore it.
cfaller96 said...
ReplyDeletebart said: Bart, have you come up with any ideas about how to check Executive abuse? The last time I asked you were stumped.
When was I stumped about this issue. This is 6th grade civics.
Congress can supervise the President with oversight and can deny funding for departments acting illegally and impeach (not censure) the President for acting illegally.
If a private citizen is actually damaged by an act of the President, he or she may bring suit and then the courts get to decide if the President is acting illegally.
FISA falls outside all of these Article I and III powers.
As you mentioned, withdrawing funding for all NSA wiretapping is an option, of course, but as I said, that's impractical. Nobody wants to deny the President any ability to conduct electronic surveillance.
Then you fund NSA and impeach the President for misusing it. Last time I checked, Feingold had no takers for even censure.
On the other hand, as our history books show, no oversight of electronic surveillance inevitably leads to Executive abuse of this power.
Then luckily over 30 members of Congress have been briefed for hours and had hundreds of questions answered by NSA on the program at issue.
Um, if it makes it retroactively legal, that sounds like 'ex post facto' to me. But IANAL. It surely does make useless pieces of paper out of the Constitution and FISA, though. (Can someone explain to me who died and made Shrub king of the US?)
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be implying that more should be done but I don't know what more could be done.
ReplyDeleteYou could put an "Update III" at
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/06/completely-unreliable-washington-post.html
linking to this post and maybe a bolded statement at the top. People who read the old post without reading this one should find out the WP was in fact right (this time).
Perhaps a public wedgie ceremony on the senate floor is in order. C-SPAN provides live coverage for each senator that fails a pop quiz on FISA and their role in checks and balances.
ReplyDeleteFor a grand finale, Arlen Specter gets the "Dreaded Rear Admiral" from Bart hisself
Off topic: I hope GG or one of the other constituional/legal experts on this forum will address the recent reports by RawStory that the Pentagon issued a playbook filled with talking pro-Iraq "war" talking points to suuporters of this debacle.
ReplyDeleteIn particular, I wish you'd address the question I have about whether it's against the law for the Pentagon to involve itself in domestic political debates/processes.
Now RawStory reports that the Pentagon is trying to get the book back. This adds to my suspicion that there's something rotten here.
He says that the legislation is in fact not amnesty for people violating FISA, because as long as said violation is not covered under the president's constitutional authority, then it can be prosecuted.
ReplyDeleteRespsectfully, you and several others who have said something similar are - as you asked - missing the point.
There are two types of "constitutional authority" a president can have:
(1) the authority to do something that is absolute, i.e., that can't be restricted or limited in any way by Congress; or
(2) authority in an area in which Congress can also legislate and therefore can restrict powers the President could otherwise exercise either if he had Congressional blessing or in the absence of Congressional limits (that's the Youngstown situation).
With the current FISA, we are in situation (2) - the President has the authority to eavesdrop but Congres limited that power. Assuming there is no 4th Amendment problem (a big assumption), a president almost certainly has constitutional authority to engage in eavesdropping for foreign intelligence purposes, but with FISA, Congress has limited that power (by reguiring that eavesdropping on Americans be done only with warrants). Thus, it has been illegal since 1978 for the President to exercise his inherent eavesdropping power by doing it without warrants.
Specter's bill changes that completely. It says nothing in the bill is intended to limit the President's constitutional eavesdropping authority in any way -- that's the very opposite of the current FISA -= and it makes that provision retroactive. That means that as long as the warrantless eavesdropping was done for anti-terrorist purposes, then it wouldn't matter -- under Specter's bill - whether it violated FISA or not. It gives the President the right to violate FISA retroactively as long as he's eavesdropping for anti-terrorist purposes (i.e., exercising his constitutional authority).
If it were the case that Article II trumped FISA and Congress had no right to regulate eavesdropping at all (situation #1 above), then there would be no need to amend FISA, since that Article II authority would trump FISA with or without amendments.
The only possible reason - and only possible effect - in amending FISA is to change its mandates retroactively to render legal what used to be illegal conduct. The point is to transform the President's conduct from situation (2) above (where Congres can regulate and limit the President's authority) to situation (1) above (where Congress is not trying to limit the President's authority). Specter's bill would remove eavesdropping from the Youngstown world (where the President's powers are limited by an act of Congress) and put it in a world where FISA no longer purports to limit warrantless eavesdropping as long as it's done to stop terrorism. The effect of that - the ONLY effect - is to take criminal behavior (eavesdropping in violation of FISA) and make it legal.
maiken said...
ReplyDeleteOne thing that has always bothered me about the manoevering to "fix" FISA is the plain contradition that it implies:
- If what the President is currently doing is legal, any change to FISA is irrelevant
- Conversely, if there is a genuine need to "fix" FISA, that implies the President is breaking the law
The rub is that FISA is used frequently to gather criminal evidence in national security cases.
FISA has been under attack when used for that purpose for decades by civil libertarians.
Therefore, if FISA's constitutionality becomes an issue, the reviewing court may not stop with finding it partially unconstitutional only when applied to intelligence gathering and may instead throw the entire thing out.
Justice definitely does not want this to happen and has bent over backwards to keep the Courts from ruling on the constitutionality of FISA by arguing the at the AUMF formed an exception.
There is no other reason to lead with this questionable argument. Most other commentators, including myself, concentrate on the nearly bullet proof Article II argument and don't bother much with the AUMF.
I can only speculate whether Specter shares Justice's concern to keep FISA from being thrown out entirely. I personally think he is a powerful committee head who is peeved that he is being left out of the intelligence oversight process and keeps coming up with dumb bills to make himself look relevant.
How exactly would one violate the provisions of Specter's new FISA? If they had their "presidential order" in their hot little hands, that's that--no violation.
ReplyDeleteNice little set-up, wiretaps completely immune from judicial scrutiny!
Note also that Specter's amendments would immunize any "type" of call---domestic to domestic for example, as long as it's part of a presidential order. Sweet!
Glenn Greenwald said...
ReplyDeleteThere are two types of "constitutional authority" a president can have:
(1) the authority to do something that is absolute, i.e., that can't be restricted or limited in any way by Congress; or
(2) authority in an area in which Congress can also legislate and therefore can restrict powers the President could otherwise exercise either if he had Congressional blessing or in the absence of Congressional limits (that's the Youngstown situation).
With the current FISA, we are in situation (2) - the President has the authority to eavesdrop but Congres limited that power.
We are finally making progress here!
OK, you have finally admitted that Article II grants the President plenary powers and that the Jackson balancing test is limited to "area(s) in which Congress can also legislate."
Now that we agree on the ground rules, what provision of Article I do you contend gives Congress the power to determine the targets of intelligence gathering and then delegate that supposed Article I power to an Article III court?
Do they really wish to see a succeeding President with whose policies they disagree wielding such power, shielded so completely?
ReplyDeleteOf course not, that is what the vote-flippin' software is for. They have already stolen 2 elections, so why should they worry?
Besides, the "great decider" may decide to proclaim himself chimperor for life anyhow.
Article I, Section 8, 14th clause:
ReplyDelete"To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;"
"You can't spy on Americans without a warrant" sure sounds like a rule and/or regulation to me.
(Apologies for feeding the troll. It was just so obvious!)
here's a question for bart-
ReplyDeletewhy does the president use FISA at all? seems according to your argument that FISA is unconstitutional, he can avoid it entirely. so why even bother? is it because he feels the FISA judges should earn their paycheck and be thrown a bone once in a while?
david:
ReplyDeleteLet Glenn do his own homework.
Glenn has studiously avoided addressing this issue in his book and I want to hear from him what legal basis Congress has for limiting the President's Article II power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering.
Several others have already given this their best shot. It is long past time that Glenn did because his entire argument succeeds or fails based on this one point.
cfaller96,
ReplyDelete"So, fly, you believe FISA was (and still is) Constitutional, since it does not encroach on Presidential power?"
No, actually. FISA, to the extent that it interferes with the president's inherent power to authorize warrant less surveillance for the purpose of gathering foreign intelligence, is unconstitutional.
Former A.G. Bell was also asked this question:
Does the president have, quote, "the inherent right to engage in electronic surveillance of an American citizen in this country."
Judge Bell responded, "I do. I think he has a constitutional right to do that, and he has a concomitant constitutional duty to do it under certain circumstances."
Glenn...I tipped off Raw and Huffpo on your posting. I'm hoping one or both will get this diseminated widely and loudly.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, Glenn, I don't think, at least, that this is Specter's thinking. The issue is still whether the president's Art. 2 authority trumps congress' ability to limit it. That was already decided in Youngstown. It doesn't. Now we need FISC to confirm Youngstown. I do believe this is Specter's thinking. Whether the language of the bill implements his thinking is another issue.
ReplyDeleteIsn't the correct place to determine whether FISA violates the president's constitutional powers in, um, the judiciary?
ReplyDeleteand if this is the case FISA would be ruled unconstitutional by the judiciary.
So instead now the tories are saying that the Legislative branch needs to amend FISA to say "Oops, we think FISA is unconstitutional now, so here's what we think isnt..and so hey anything done under old FISA is not a crime.."
But yet, if FISA was declared unconstitutional by the judiciary, which, correct me if i'm wrong, is the correct way to go about doing such a thing, then FISA in it's current form can't be used to prosecute the administration anyways!
So, in short, traditional method:
1. President violates FISA, believing he constitutionally can
2. Judiciary branch rules FISA unconstitutional
3. President cannot be charged for violation of unconstitutional law.
Specter's version
1. President violates FISA, believing he constituionally can
2. Legislative branch thinks he can too, decides to amend FISA and give him protection from old FISA too.
3. Judiciary finds old FISA was unconstitutional
4. President cannot be charged for violation of unconstitutional law.
So there isn't a difference between these two...
unless of course the judiciary says FISA does not violate the president's constitutional powers. Then, the traditional constitutional method holds that he can be charged. The Specter gives him (everybody now) AMNESTY!
For the non-lawyers here, Bart is handing Glenn his hat on the constitutional debate. Its been a good read.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Glen writes:
If it were the case that Article II trumped FISA and Congress had no right to regulate eavesdropping at all (situation #1 above), then there would be no need to amend FISA, since that Article II authority would trump FISA with or without amendments.
Glen, you are getting yourself all tied up in logic boxes from which you cannot escape, but the answer is easy. The reason to amend FISA, even though the President's Article II power trumps it as applied to intelligence gathering, is so that FISA is not an unconstitutional encroachment on the President's Article II powers. The amendments are to save FISA and make it relevant, now that it is painfully clear that it (unconstitutionally) attempts to regulate the President's Article II authority.
The best argument that the warrantless eavesdropping program is legal is the President's inherent authority under Article II. There is no shared power for intelligence gathering of a foreign enemy. This is NOT Youngstown no matter how many times you say so.
What the heck would be an example of an area where the president doesn't have to listen to Congress?
ReplyDeleteCertain presidential powers are explicitly enumerated, for instance vetoes. Congress would have to pass an amendment to prevent the president from vetoing.
What the wingnuts are trying to say is that warrantless wiretapping is as clearly an executive perogative as vetoing.
This is absurd on it's face, and only koolaid drinkers buy this crap. If FISA has been unconstitutional this whole time, you can be sure that it would have gone to court before now.
Anonymous, didn't you read the argument? The Supreme Court might rule that wiretaps on US citizens outside the standard judiciary process are prima facie unconstitutional. Since that judgment would stop the president from doing something that he wants to do, his commander-in-chief powers allow - nay, duties require - him to manipulate all three branches of government to nullify the courts' chance to poop his party.
ReplyDelete"What the heck would be an example of an area where the president doesn't have to listen to Congress?"
ReplyDelete1. The placement of the 3rd Infantry Division in Iraq on the eve of a major offensive.
2. Spying and intercepting communications from an enemy or accomplices that mean to do the U.S. harm.
There's two.
The best argument that the warrantless eavesdropping program is legal is the President's inherent authority under Article II.
ReplyDeleteYou with your magical super powers for the President! Where in the Constitution, anywhere in Article II, does it say the President can eavesdrop on Americans willy-nilly on his sayso? Where does it say in Article II that the President is immune to Article I powers of Congress to create rules and regulations for government?
Where do you get the idea that the President alone gets to determine where the line is drawn between his little political desires and the Bill of Rights (4th Amendment, in particular)?
anonymous, #2 is just made up.
ReplyDeleteThat is not a presidential power. "enemy", "harm", "spying", "communicatons", all have specific meanings in the legal context.
It's a clear sign of the vacuity of the Big Brother crowd's views that they have to resort to such vague definitions to make their arguments even halfway plausible.
Prunes and Pallidoris:
ReplyDeleteAssume Russia invaded the U.S. through the Canadian border.
Does the President have inherent Article II authority to conduct warrantless eavesdropping throughout the U.S. upon being invaded?
2. Spying and intercepting communications from an enemy or accomplices that mean to do the U.S. harm.
ReplyDeleteSo...who gets to determine who the enemy is? Is it anyone and everyone in an opposing political party? Are they "enemies" simply by virtue of opposing programs and policies of the President? Does it include Quakers? Perhaps environmentalists? Or maybe anyone with the gall to speak out against the President and his party? Journalists? Lawyers?
See, this is where the Article I powers of Congress to set the rules and regs of the government (including the Exec) comes in. This is where checks and balances comes in...to mediate between Presidential desire, which is almost always self-serving, and the Constitution and Bill of Rights. See, the courts are well within their proper place to ensure that in exercising the President's Article II powers, s/he doesn't trample on those of Congress, the Judiciary, or the Bill of Rights (the people). The President is incapable of making such a judgement.
and once again if there's a conflict between the legislative and executive branch isnt it up to the judiciary to decide? But they don't want to do that because they know the administration will lose, and can be prosecuted..
ReplyDeleteDoes the President have inherent Article II authority to conduct warrantless eavesdropping throughout the U.S. upon being invaded?
ReplyDeleteEh? Are we talking about "Red Dawn" nonsense or reality? The Bill of Rights always trumps the President's political desires.
No. He does not. Certainly not without oversight to ensure that he is ONLY acting on legitimate communications rather than just grabbing sexual data on his rivals or political strategies from his opponents.
Oversight, oversight, oversight. Always the oversight and checks and balances.
Cfaller96 asked: This is where you really need to think through your idea that FISA is un-Constitutional. If FISA is un-Constitutional, then what do propose in its place? How do you propose to Legislatively prevent Executive abuse of surveillance power without completely stripping the Executive of any surveillance power?
ReplyDeleteOur little legal troll replied:
When was I stumped about this issue. This is 6th grade civics.
Congress can supervise the President with oversight and can deny funding for departments acting illegally and impeach (not censure) the President for acting illegally.
If a private citizen is actually damaged by an act of the President, he or she may bring suit and then the courts get to decide if the President is acting illegally.
Then you fund NSA and impeach the President for misusing it. Last time I checked, Feingold had no takers for even censure.
So how does a private citizen know, let alone how can he prove that he was damaged by an act of the President? During the Nixon years there were physical bugs that could be discovered and thus evidence that could be used to prove a case. Not anymore, all the monitoring is done out of sight with no way to prove that the president or his subordinates did anything.
Political enemies careers could be destroyed, but there’s no way they could prove that the information used against them was obtained by the executive branch monitoring their phones or e-mail etc.
Secondly, with all three branches of government in the hands of one party, it is politically impossible for the opposition party to prohibit abuse by the executive branch. They wouldn’t have the votes to stop funding (which is a political non-starter anyway) nor would they have the votes to bring impeachment.
So, the oversight claimed by the troll is non-existent given the situation we find ourselves in today.
No suits can be brought, because no evidence will exist; and 2) it is politically impossible to stop the president from abuse when his party holds complete power.
There is no oversight, and no way to prevent the executive from abusing power, our troll knows that, and it’s just the way he likes it because his party is in power and he’s convinced that it will always be in power – because of their ability to abuse their power to stay in power.
Assume Russia invaded the U.S. through the Canadian border.
ReplyDeleteDoes the President have inherent Article II authority to conduct warrantless eavesdropping throughout the U.S. upon being invaded?
I can see why you remain anonymous.
Serious question: are you fucking stupid?
Do you really think that this question frames a situation that bears at all on the issue at hand?
Even if I could take your query seriously, I see no reason why retroactively granted warrants wouldn't suffice even in the case of Ruskie invasion.
Some people just don't understand America, apparently.
So I assume the phrase "declaration of war" means nothing to you, anon? I'm sure the 48-hour exemption would cover the president for the (approximately) twelve-point-five seconds it would take to pass one in those circumstances.
ReplyDeleteHold on to your popcorn folks...
ReplyDelete"Thus, it has been illegal since 1978 for the President to exercise his inherent eavesdropping power by doing it without warrants."
[Cato Institute]
"Congress, by mere statute, can no more restrict the inherent power of a president—or a court, or a state, for that matter—than it can restrict the constitutional rights of an individual"
There goes the whole ballgame...
By the way anonymous, Red Dawn (with the Russkie invasion of the Western US) was cool when I was a teenager and we were still deep in the throws of the Cold War but it was, nonetheless, total bullshit.
ReplyDeleteDo you really want to use Red Dawn as a means of bolstering uncontrolled, unregulated domestic spying? It doesn't bother you in the least that we are not invaded by, well, anyone? Let alone Commie Ruskies?
the fly: You act as if there's something new in there.
ReplyDeleteThere's not.
Steve said...
ReplyDeleteLet's stipulate that there is some degree of "inherent authority to conduct intelligence surveillance." How does it automatically follow that there is the same degree of "inherent authority to conduct warrantless intelligence surveillance"? How is that in any way a given?
Because the courts addressing this subject have all held that they do not have the expertise to determine what is justified and unjustified intelligence gathering. The case law as it stands today holds that the 4th Amendment does not require warrants to conduct intelligence gathering.
See, e.g., United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1144 (1982); United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 890 (1977); United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3d Cir. 1974) (en banc), cert. denied, 419 U.S. 881 (1974); United States v. Brown, 484 F.2d 418 (5th Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 916 (1974). See also In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717, 742 (Foreign Intel. Surv. Ct. of Rev. 2002).
Separately, let us stipulate that the President has unlimited power to spy on our foreign enemies. Does it necessarily follow that he has unlimited power to spy on any American citizen who has communicated with our foreign enemies? Because that is part of the NSA spying program, by the administration's own concession.
The 4th Amendment exception only extends to foreign groups and their agents in the US.
The NSA Program is supposedly monitoring telephone numbers captured from al Qaeda like the treasure trove we reportedly captured from Zarqawi's computers and documents.
We are surveilling international calls in and out of the US where one end of the call involves one of these captured numbers on the reasonable suspicion that al Qaeda may be using numbers which were in the possession of other al Qaeda.
This is hardly the same as monitoring the tens of millions of telephone numbers in the US operated by US citizens.
You guys on the other side of the issue don't seem to realize how surreal your position is. Let's say the President has unlimited power to spy on any American who has ever communicated with al-Qaeda, and that if Congress tries to tell him he can't, then tough rocks.
Even conceding all of that, do you really contend that the President cannot be required, pursuant to the warrant process, to substantiate to some oversight body like the FISA court that the American he is spying on has, in fact, communicated with al-Qaeda?
Congress can and is conducting oversight of this program. The courts do not have this right under the Constitution and Congress may not delegate its oversight power to the courts.
It never fails that "strict constructionists/originalists" find "inherent" powers in the Constitution, when the framers were crystal clear on the issue of enumerated powers. What is absurd on its face is that people are saying - with a straight face - that there are any provisions in Article II which give the president the authority to spy on American citizens, in the US, without a warrant. And as has been stated previously, Amendment 4 AMENDED the Constitution and requires warrants and probable cause "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.".
ReplyDeleteIs it simple enough for you now?
Pallidoris's answer to my question really brings the debate into perspective:
ReplyDelete"No. He does not. Certainly not without oversight to ensure that he is ONLY acting on legitimate communications rather than just grabbing sexual data on his rivals or political strategies from his opponents."
So, according to this view of the Constitution, if Russia invaded the United States the President could not use his Article II Commander-in-Chief authority to begin spying and interceptiong communications in the U.S. - the President would have to get a warrant first! Do you think before you write?
The Constitution is not a suicide pact. The President is not required to go to Congress or the Courts when he exercises his plenary power under Article II. Just like he doesn't have to ask Congress if it is ok to send the 3rd ID into Basra, he does not need Congress's permission to spy on our enemies. (And for those who are confused and think the "enemy" is another political party...the enemy is the one that attacked the continental U.S.)
Now this is just choice - Pallidoris weighs in to say "It doesn't bother you in the least that we are not invaded by, well, anyone?"
Where have you been? Were those planes flying into the WTC by those who have sworn to kill us not an invasion? This is precisely why no one takes this wiretapping "controversy" seriously except the few hundred people that hang out here. You don't even think we were invaded - why would you think wiretaps are important? Brilliant.
Justice definitely does not want this to happen and has bent over backwards to keep the Courts from ruling on the constitutionality of FISA by arguing the at the AUMF formed an exception.
ReplyDeleteIts the old "we like this law except when we don't" defense. How very clever. So now your contending that no judge has ruled on your Article 2 claims because FISA is too useful to give up. Rich!
Specter, Roberts, Warner are all a disgrace. Thank you Glenn for providing this information.
ReplyDeleteApparently Anonymous really doesn't understand the idea of a declaration of war. Whaddaya know, I was right!
ReplyDeleteThe Constitution is not a suicide pact.
When the choice is liberty or death, then yes, it is.
David, your beloved Congress gave up its institutional perogative to declare wars long ago. Quick - when was the last time there was a formal declaration of war? How many military actions has the US been involved in since then?
ReplyDeleteThanks for playing.
The NSA Program is supposedly monitoring telephone numbers captured from al Qaeda like the treasure trove we reportedly captured from Zarqawi's computers and documents.
ReplyDeleteNonsense. It is MUCH broader (and ominous) than that. PART of the illegal spying nonsense involves sucking up phone records and it is this part, the pen register part, that the GOPers and BushCo keep trying to redirect attention. Forgotten is the little, under-the-breath part of "and emails". The NSA is NOT just sucking up phone records, willy-nilly. They are sucking up internet traffic and collecting data on ALL email traffic. Period. They are also, by virtue of packet sniffer, sucking up all VoIP data as well. All without warrant and without regards to whom it goes to.
There is much more to this shite than just pen registers from phone companies.
The Pres has no authority or power to simply snarf up all internet traffic sans warrant. He has no authority to spy on American citizens, IN THE USA, without warrants. Tapping into international calls to valid suspects is not in contention, it is the crap that is going on beyond that which is a problem.
You want to listen into my phonecalls to my brother via VoIP? GET A WARRANT.
[John R. Schmidt, a Justice Department official in the Clinton
ReplyDeleteadministration] noted that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, made up of three federal appeals court judges, addressed this issue in 2002 and said that it took for granted that the president had the inherent constitutional authority to conduct searches without warrants.
"It's utterly indefensible for people to say that there is no plausible legal justification when the only judicial statement on this is a flat statement that the president has this authority," Mr. Schmidt said.
The FISA appellate court specifically rejected the theory that Pres does not have this authority::
"We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President's constitutional power."
Now, may be that all these judges were wrong. But, why does Glenn keep saying Bush "violated law" and "acted illegally" when he knows that they only time a court has been asked the question, court was on Bush's side?
Why not attack the FISA judges for being dumb? Why attack Bush for doing what federal appellate judges said was fine?
Glenn, thanks for the clarification.
ReplyDeleteThis is one of those areas where it gets hard to understand the technicalities.
Even if the President had the power to conduct this surveillance, it would bug the hell out of me that he has no need to certify its legality, other than by having one of his appointed buddies write an opinion claiming it's okay. I mean, can you get out of a decent law school without being about to write a good sophistry defending nearly any action that isn't completely indefensible?
It boggles the mind to think that the founders would not have wanted some form of real oversight (speaking of sophistries, that doesn't mean "congressional briefings in which Congress has no power to actually *do* anything"), no matter how absolute the power they intended to grant.
How many military actions has the US been involved in since then?
ReplyDeleteAnother fine example of the erosion of the intent of the constitution. The fact that you think its a GOOD thing speaks volumes.
This is hardly the same as monitoring the tens of millions of telephone numbers in the US operated by US citizens.
ReplyDeletebart, there is NO reason to suspect that US-to-US calls are not being monitored.
Just the opposite, in fact.
The only reason to think that there has been no citizen-to-citizen spying is wishful thinking.
You just make things up and pretend that they're arguments. You are apparently not a serious man.
So you don't think Congress would pass a declaration of war in the event of invasion of the US by a foreign power. Right. That's an interesting theory.
ReplyDeleteAlso. "Your beloved Congress"? Respect for the fucking constitution and rule of law warrants snide mockery now?
Okay, I'm done this little adventure with the mind of the Orwellian nutcase. It's been fun.
bart and others supporting the president, my question still stands:
ReplyDeletewhy does the president use FISA at all?
The only reason to think that there has been no citizen-to-citizen spying is wishful thinking
ReplyDeleteAll of Bart's arguments rest on the theory that every word spoken by anyone in the administration is true. We, of course know exactly how reliable that is.
Set Your Alarms: Big Face-off Between Stone and Posner on Civil Liberties and thhe War on Terrorism
ReplyDeleteFrom the UofChicago Law School Blog:
Next week, we launch yet another new feature of the blog: a debate forum where our bloggers will have the chance to exchange ideas in a series of related posts over a several day period. First up are colleagues Geof Stone and Richard Posner, on the topic of "Civil Liberties and the War Against Terrorism."
This debate will begin on Monday with a post from Geof, and should run the whole week. Readers can follow the posts here, or can access the full set of posts via the link in the left-hand column.
Specter says on his website http://specter.senate.gov
ReplyDelete"It is my privilege to make this website available for all Pennsylvanians and others interested in my activities as your representative in the Senate. I hope you find it informative and useful. Always feel free to contact my office or my personal email and I will be glad to address your concerns. I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for visiting." (bold emphasis mine)
So let's take him at his word and contact his office for an explanation and address of our concerns that he's enabling a law breaker.
Main Office:
711 Hart Building
Washington, DC 20510
Tel: 202-224-4254
Contact Form http://specter.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContactInfo.Home
Not everyone is lucky enough to have a senator on the Judiciary Committee, so we might as well take our concerns about the Chairman to the Chairman himself.
Seriously, at what point is armed insurrection the only option?
ReplyDelete.
Overview of Congressional intelligence oversight "dysfunction."
ReplyDeleteSecrecy News suggests a new report to understand how Congress has fallen down on the job in overseeing intelligence gathering activities:
Congressional oversight of intelligence is "dysfunctional," according to a new report from the liberal Center for American Progress.
Some of the most urgent and fundamental policy issues facing the nation are matters of intelligence policy: What are the proper boundaries of domestic intelligence surveillance? What is the legal framework for interrogation of enemy detainees? Why haven't the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission been effectively implemented?
But at a moment when intelligence policy is relatively high on the public agenda, the intelligence oversight committees in Congress seem to have little to contribute.
The posting also provides links to past reports on the subject, as well as historical surveys.
Can't congress override vetoes?
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, sure. I might have phrased it poorly, I did not mean that Congress has no power whatsoever over vetoes, but that they cannot unilaterally increase their authority over vetoes without an amendment, in contradistinction to the wiretapping issue.
bart,
ReplyDeleteits interesting that you matter of factly state that FISA is unconstitutional yet the administration, struggling to defend its actions for months, has yet to even hint at, much less offer, this argument.
if you can find a single instance where alberto gonzalez or the WH claims that FISA is unconstitutional, please provide it now, or kindly stfu.
cheers.
Steve said...
ReplyDeleteBart: We are surveilling international calls in and out of the US where one end of the call involves one of these captured numbers on the reasonable suspicion that al Qaeda may be using numbers which were in the possession of other al Qaeda.
Bart, you're just making that up. Why is it that every single supporter of the NSA program on the Internet claims to have received top-secret briefings on the extent of the program?
These are the leaks reported in the press.
Here is what the Attorney General has actually said:
To the extent that there is a moderate and heavy communication involving an American citizen, it would be a communication where the other end of the call is outside the United States and where we believe that either the American citizen or the person outside the United States is somehow affiliated with al Qaeda.
And the affiliation to which the AG is referring is a communication to or from a captured telephone number possessed by al Qaeda.
In other words, if they believe an American citizen is affiliated with al-Qaeda, they have the right to eavesdrop on that American citizen without a warrant, no matter what Congress says.
Yes, unless Congress wants to defund the NSA.
Thus, there is no oversight of the Executive's determination; if they claim, under a veil of total secrecy, that you have an affiliation with al-Qaeda, they can eavesdrop on you.
There are over 30 members of Congress overseeing this program right now.
Bart: Because the courts addressing this subject have all held that they do not have the expertise to determine what is justified and unjustified intelligence gathering.
But if you're going to claim that anything the executive branch chooses to call "intelligence gathering" is immune from judicial oversight, then there's no limit at all.
Congress performs oversight on intelligence. The courts have no such power.
How about wiretapping of purely domestic calls for intelligence-gathering purposes?
I do not know for sure why the NSA made a distinction between international and domestic calls. The court decisions establishing this Article II power make no such geographic distinction. So long as the target is a foreign group or one of their agents, the government does not need a warrant under the 4th Amendment.
However, I suspect that this distinction was made to get around FISA in case a court did reverse all prior precedent and held that FISA could limit the President's Article II intelligence gathering power.
FISA only applies to situations where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy. In the case of international mail and the data on computers shipped across our borders, the courts have held that there is no expectation of privacy because all things which cross our border can be searched. I suspect that international telephonic communications fall under that category and thus are not covered by FISA.
As a very practical matter, if you really believe all the administration is doing is wiretapping specific numbers that we've captured from an al-Qaeda "treasure trove," then why would they choose to pick such a big fight over their right to do so without a warrant? Wouldn't it take about 5 seconds for the FISA court to say, "ok, you captured that list of numbers from an al-Qaeda leader, here's your warrant to wiretap them all"? Why let the argument progress to this point, if that's truly the extent of the program?
FISA requires probable cause to believe that the person using the telephone number is al Qaeda. The mere fact that the telephone number was on the computer of an al Qeada member does not provide that probable cause because it could just as easily be the al Qaeda agent's favorite falafel maker.
The Exalted said...
ReplyDeletebart, its interesting that you matter of factly state that FISA is unconstitutional yet the administration, struggling to defend its actions for months, has yet to even hint at, much less offer, this argument.
if you can find a single instance where alberto gonzalez or the WH claims that FISA is unconstitutional, please provide it now, or kindly stfu.
I have posted this about 6 times, but in the interests of education here is the link to the DOJ white paper on the subject:
http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/nsa/dojnsa11906wp.pdf
In particular, read the discussion of the doctrine of constitutional avoidance starting at page 28. In a nutshell, the argument is that the courts should read the AUMF to make an exception to FISA for the NSA Program to avoid having the court hold that FISA is unconstitutional.
re: ex post facto - it would require the finding of guilt already established, which is no the case in the bush admin.
ReplyDeleteNobody wants to deny the President any ability to conduct electronic surveillance.
ReplyDeletebart said:
Then you fund NSA and impeach the President for misusing it.
That does nothing to prevent Executive abuse in the first place, bart. You're essentially setting up a system that dares Congress to impeach a President for abuse after the fact.
The bottom line is you wouldn't do anything to prevent the damage in the first place. As we have seen with past Presidents, that's incredibly naive.
I'm disappointed that you believe a President should be allowed to abuse his Executive power before any Legislative action is taken in response.
But let's move on- do you believe abuse of surveillance power is an impeachable offense?
cfaller96 said...
ReplyDeleteNobody wants to deny the President any ability to conduct electronic surveillance.
bart said: Then you fund NSA and impeach the President for misusing it.
That does nothing to prevent Executive abuse in the first place, bart. You're essentially setting up a system that dares Congress to impeach a President for abuse after the fact.
Elections have consequences.
The job of running intelligence gathering is a plenary Presidential power.
When you elect a person to be President, you are electing him or her to do this job.
The bottom line is you wouldn't do anything to prevent the damage in the first place.
What do you suggest as a preemptive action?
FISA is not preemptive action. If the President is truly acting illegally and hiding the illegality, why exactly would he come to FISA to ask permission in the first instance?
FISA is a copout by Congress attempting to delegate its own oversight responsibility.
But let's move on- do you believe abuse of surveillance power is an impeachable offense?
"Abuse" is in the opinion of the polemicist.
If the law is established and the President broke the law, then he should be impeached.
Glenn,
ReplyDeletelooking at the specter thing and not wishing to be too obvious, but do there exist anywhere a distinction or evidential differences twixt the potus' constitutional powers and claimed constitutional powers.
my original thought was that assertion alone cannot be sustained, which might well be one of the reasons specter seeks some accomodation here, but if unsustainable why only(apparently) a oneway process..?
Interested to know of any possibs..
keep up the good work
the fly said:
ReplyDelete"[FISA] does not take away the power of the president under the Constitution."
True then, still true today.
but later recanted:
FISA, to the extent that it interferes with the president's inherent power...is unconstitutional.
Please explain how FISA doesn't take away Presidential power, as you originally said, but simultaneously interferes with inherent Presidential power, as you later said. You're contradicting yourself.
Judge Bell's testimony was regarding Presidential activity in the absence of legislation, fly, which is far different than Presidential activity in violation of legislation.
Or did you forget that Judge Bell's testimony (1977) preceded the passage of FISA? It'd be funny if you "forgot", because that's what it said in the article you cited.
You weren't trying to lend credibility to a claim by linking to that Moonie Times article that contradicted what you said, were you? No, of course not, because that would be fundamentally dishonest, and you're above that, aren't you?
Justice Breyer had a telling comment in his dissent to today's knock/announce ruling:
ReplyDeleteIndeed, why did the prosecutor not argue in this very case that, given the likelihood of guns, the no-knock entry was lawful? From what I have seen in the record, he would have won. And had he won, there would have been no suppression here.
That is the right way to win. The very process of arguing the merits of the violation would help to clarify the contours of the knock-and-announce rule, contours that the majority believes are too fuzzy. ... Regardless, if the Court fears that effective enforcement of a constitutional requirement will have harmful consequences, it should face those fears directly by addressing the requirement itself. It should not argue, "the requirement is fine, indeed, a serious matter, just don't enforce it."
Afraid of the courts? The violation is "serious" but we can rely on remedies in which "damages may be virtually non-existent" (as the state's brief admitted).
Made me think of BushCo in spades.
I know this has probably been posted before:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a27337612f5.htm
My, how hypocritical of the Republicans. There is a reason that most Libertarians voted "R" over "D" in most national elections. Not anymore, and with the blatant politicizing of the "debate" on that war resolution today - after they have screamed for years that the Dems are playing politics with people's lives, they are even more repugnant than the left wing statists.
The link got cut off:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.freerepublic.com/
forum/a3a27337612f5.htm
bart said:
ReplyDeleteWhat do you suggest as a preemptive action?
FISA.
bart said:
FISA is not preemptive action. If the President is truly acting illegally and hiding the illegality, why exactly would he come to FISA to ask permission in the first instance?
Well, the President wouldn't do that in the first place, thus stopping abusive surveillance before it even begins. It doesn't get much more preemptive than that. Or maybe I don't understand your hypothetical scenario.
bart said:
If the law is established and the President broke the law, then he should be impeached.
Bart, you know where I'm going here. Do you believe violating FISA is an impeachable offense? That law has been on the books for almost 30 years- are you saying that it is not established law?
Bart, please name the 30 Congressional members who have been supposedly "briefed" and are conducting "oversight". Please provide the definition of "brief" and "oversight".
ReplyDeleteThose terms have specific meanings, and I don't think the administration has followed the official procedure for briefing Congress of this Program. For instance, the Administration has not given a presentation to the full Intelligence Committees of both houses, and what few questions some Congressmen had have not been answered (what many call "briefing" Congress). The Administration has not shown (and does not show) any willingness to modify the Program based on Congressional input (what many call "oversight").
cfaller96 said...
ReplyDeletebart said: FISA is not preemptive action. If the President is truly acting illegally and hiding the illegality, why exactly would he come to FISA to ask permission in the first instance?
Well, the President wouldn't do that in the first place, thus stopping abusive surveillance before it even begins. It doesn't get much more preemptive than that. Or maybe I don't understand your hypothetical scenario.
Huh?
If say a President Clinton has no problem violating the law by say spying on the RNC, exactly why should she care about abiding with FISA?
bart said: If the law is established and the President broke the law, then he should be impeached.
Bart, you know where I'm going here. Do you believe violating FISA is an impeachable offense? That law has been on the books for almost 30 years- are you saying that it is not established law?
You can't violate an unconstitutional law. In fact, the court precedent holds that the President has a duty not to abide by unconstitutional laws.
Bart, please name the 30 Congressional members who have been supposedly "briefed" and are conducting "oversight".
They are the current members of the intel committees and the past leadership of these committees over the past four years.
Please provide the definition of "brief" and "oversight".
Let me give you an example. Jay Rockefeller reportedly asked over 600 questions which the NSA answered to his satisfaction. In addition, he received briefings from Justice and NSA, then observed the program first hand at NSA.
I sincerely doubt that there has been this much oversight of any prior program.
cfaller96,
ReplyDelete"[FISA] does not take away the power of the president under the Constitution." True then, still true today."
"but later recanted: FISA, to the extent that it interferes with the president's inherent power...is unconstitutional."
Both statements say basically the same thing...
FISA imposes statutory requirements on the executive branch that clearly interfere with the president's inherent power to authorize warrant less surveillance in some cases, such as warrant less surveillance for the purpose of gathering foreign intelligence for national security.
Again, former Attorney General Griffin Bell, when asked if the president has "the inherent [constitutional] right to engage in electronic surveillance of an American citizen in this country" responded:
"I think he has a constitutional right to do that, and he has a concomitant constitutional duty to do it under certain circumstances"
Statutes, [such as FISA] no matter what the language, cannot constrain the president's inherent constitutional power [and duty] to defend the nation against foreign attacks.
bart: If the law is established and the President broke the law, then he should be impeached.
ReplyDeleteI agree completely, but I admit to being a little baffled to see *you* say it. Furthermore, if anyone else (including but not limited to subordinates to the President) broke the law, they should be invesigated and prosecuted unless and until they are pardoned by the President.
In any case, I would like you to show me where in article II you see the phrase "plenary power". It seems to have been omitted from my copy. I wonder why Mr. Madison could have left out something like that? Perhaps it had something to do with his own recent experiences with an executive with plenary powers, that convinced him and his fellow conventioneers that a limited executive might be preferable?
On the other hand, while we're on the subject of the scope of Presidential power, Art. II Sec. 3 *does* clearly state that "he [that is, the President] shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed". So Article II itself clearly states that the President *never* has the authority to break the law - in fact, he has an explicit and specific duty to obey the law.
Whew, good thing we cleared that up.
Spying, as you probably already know, is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. Let's suppose we agree that spies fall under the general heading of "the Army and Navy of the United States" (which the President is Commander-in-Chief of).
Isn't it interesting that Congress has the specific power to "make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces"? Exactly the type of rule that FISA is?
The Article II power of the President to command the military is clearly subject to the Article I power of the Congress to regulate the military - i.e., to provide *general rules of conduct* which all its members (including its commander-in-chief) must follow. The President is in charge of specific operations, within the general rules laid down by Congress.
This is, as you have observed yourself, sixth grade civics, so why all the confusion?
Of course, no one has made any serious argument that FISA is unconstitutional until now - and it's the backwash - not the administration, making said lameass excuses.
ReplyDeleteGod, you people are the most hypocritical, unprincipled buffoons on earth.
Isn't this discussion rather redundant? I appreciate the scholar-points, but with Alito now casting the tie breaker, I don't get it. The Attorney General has quite publicly stated that the law is whatever the President says it is during a time of war. We have allowed the definition of war to become prostituted. And with the current "war on terror" This administration has pulled off the perfect crime. Check-mate.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, was it REALLY THAT SURPRISING TO YOU that Arlene Spectre would LIE ON NATIONAL TELEVISION?!?! Thats what these people do for a living! Proof be damned!
ReplyDeleteIf there was some positive solution to this Orwellian trampling of rights, I'd love to know what it was. Democrats seem to be as eager to Rubber Stamp asinine proposals from the GOP as the GOP'rs themselves these days, so I can't say what kind of recourse an individual could possibly have.
I heard recently on CNN a discussion about complete immunity for elected officials or their appointees based on the concept of checks and balances (they didn't give much substantiation, but they stated it as fact nonetheless), so this story doesn't shock me as much as it should.
The fact that such a law could even be proposed is a good indication of the state of the Constitution.
Steve said...
ReplyDeleteBart: Let me give you an example. Jay Rockefeller reportedly asked over 600 questions which the NSA answered to his satisfaction. In addition, he received briefings from Justice and NSA, then observed the program first hand at NSA.
Do you have a link to support this?
You are correct about the number of questions. It was 450, not 600. I was operating from memory.
Here is the pertinent WP report:
Rockefeller said he had spent 6 1/2 hours at the NSA last week getting answers to more than 450 questions he had submitted to the agency, adding that he had "fought hard for this information to be shared with the full committee."
http://www.washingtonpost.com
/wp-dyn/
content/article/2006/03/07/AR2006030701549.html
It's worth recalling that when Rockefeller was first informed about the program back in 2003, he was shocked enough to write a handwritten letter to Cheney stating: "Clearly, the activities we discussed raise profound oversight issues... As I reflected on the meeting today, and the future we face, John Poindexter's TIA project sprung to mind, exacerbating my concern regarding the direction the Administration is moving with regard to security, technology, and surveillance."
But not shocked enough to do anything about it. Indeed, Pat Roberts has said repeatedly to the press that Rockefeller expressed approval of the program during committee meetings, the last a couple weeks before the NYT blew the cover off the program. Rockefeller never denied this.
And to suggest that there has never been this much oversight of any other program? Please.
Supervision is a Congressional function. Bush told them repeatedly about the program. None of them asked any additional questions, which shows the level of concern before this became a media football.
It seems a good moment to remind evereyone that the issue isn't the spying. Its the making up the rules as you go.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I can tell, all this talk about plenary powers is based on nothing more than the fact that article 1 opens with the phrase "All legislative Powers herein granted" while article 2 opens with "The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of
America".
The lack of the phrase "herein granted" is now being taken to mean anything goes.
I'm forced to turn to amendment 10 to point out why this thinking is misguided.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to
the people.
Its pretty clear to me that all branches of government's powers were intended to be limited to those enumerated and that those who now suggest otherwise are indeed making it up as they go along!
PhD9,
ReplyDeleteConsider the difference in the oaths of office:
President:
"that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States"
Congress:
"that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same"
Consider the difference in the oaths of office
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what your point is but I do find it interesting that the President's oath is spelled out in full while that of Congress is simply "to support the Constitution"
Chris said...
ReplyDeletebart: If the law is established and the President broke the law, then he should be impeached.
I agree completely, but I admit to being a little baffled to see *you* say it.
I have posted repeatedly that if you can prove that the President is using the NSA to spy in political opponents like Nixon and Clinton did with the FBI files, then we can talk about impeachment.
In any case, I would like you to show me where in article II you see the phrase "plenary power". It seems to have been omitted from my copy.
Plenary power is simply a legal term for a constitutional power which only one branch wields. For example, Congress has the power of the purse, the Courts have judicial review and the President controls intelligence gathering.
On the other hand, while we're on the subject of the scope of Presidential power, Art. II Sec. 3 *does* clearly state that "he [that is, the President] shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed". So Article II itself clearly states that the President *never* has the authority to break the law - in fact, he has an explicit and specific duty to obey the law.
I agree. This includes a duty not to enforce or obey unconstitutional laws.
Spying, as you probably already know, is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. Let's suppose we agree that spies fall under the general heading of "the Army and Navy of the United States" (which the President is Commander-in-Chief of). Isn't it interesting that Congress has the specific power to "make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces"? Exactly the type of rule that FISA is?
That is creative.
However, intelligence gathering is not limited to the uniformed services as is the power to regulate the conduct of the Army and Navy.
The President's power to conduct intelligence gathering arises from multiple provisions in Article II including the fact that he is the "sole organ of foreign policy" (Supreme Court's words), the only executive as well as CiC.
Moreover, the Article I power to regulate the Army and Navy has always been held to concern setting rules for the individual good order and conduct of members of the uniformed services like they did by enacting the UCMJ. There is no court case which claims that this Article I power has anything to do with intelligence gathering. Congress itself has never claimed this.
There is no court case which claims that this Article I power has anything to do with intelligence gathering. Congress itself has never claimed this.
ReplyDeleteExcept insofar as they passed FISA in the first place.....
From Good Nonsense...
ReplyDeletePoor Glenn Greenwald
He let himself trust Arlen Specter, the architect of the Warren Report, when Specter adamantly denied ever building amnesty for FISA violations into his bill giving away our security from government abuse. Glenn even attacked the Washington Post (not that there's anything wrong with that) for publishing something that, because so forcefully denied, just couldn't be true.
http://goodnonsense.blogspot.com/2006/06/poor-glenn-greenwald.html
Chris, PhD9,
ReplyDelete"The President is in charge of specific operations, within the general rules laid down by Congress"
"Except insofar as they passed FISA in the first place....."
Au Contraire. Congress cannot abridge the executives constitutionally prescribed role by statute. Consider Alexander Hamilton:
[Federalist Papers No. 74]
"THE President of the United States is to be "commander-in-chief of the army and navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several States WHEN CALLED INTO THE ACTUAL SERVICE of the United States." The propriety of this provision is so evident in itself, and it is, at the same time, so consonant to the precedents of the State constitutions in general, that little need be said to explain or enforce it. Even those of them which have, in other respects, coupled the chief magistrate with a council, have for the most part concentrated the military authority in him alone. Of all the cares or concerns of government, the direction of war most peculiarly demands those qualities which distinguish the exercise of power by a single hand. The direction of war implies the direction of the common strength; and the power of directing and employing the common strength, forms a usual and essential part in the definition of the executive authority."
Specter: A servile, authority-worshipping robot who does what Big Leader tells him to and lies as easily as breathing. In short, a Republican.
ReplyDeletePhD9 said...
ReplyDeleteBart: There is no court case which claims that this Article I power has anything to do with intelligence gathering. Congress itself has never claimed this.
Except insofar as they passed FISA in the first place.....
A great deal of argument has been posted on this subject. Google the legislative history of FISA. You will not find any reference to the Article I power to regulate the military as the basis for this statute.
In the debates, the Congress cited the Youngstown case without reference to any actual Article I power and openly worried that the courts would find the whole project unconstitutional.
JaO said...
ReplyDeletebart: Moreover, the Article I power to regulate the Army and Navy has always been held to concern setting rules for the individual good order and conduct of members of the uniformed services like they did by enacting the UCMJ. There is no court case which claims that this Article I power has anything to do with intelligence gathering.
Because cases exist that reference the UCMJ does not mean that Congress can only legislate on the UCMJ. There is no holding whatsoever that the provision in question applies only to that narrow field. The language of the clause is quite general
Perhaps, that is because Congress never claimed that this provision of Article I covered anything but the good order and discipline of military members. The Courts generally do not rule on fantasies.
In fact, Congress legislates in many areas to regulate the armed forces and intelligence agencies. (Besides, Congressional authority over domestic surveillance is augmented by other constitutional provisions, including the Necessary and Proper clause.)
The necessary and proper clause is simply and enabling provision which allows the Congress to pass legislation to put enumerate constitutional powers into effect. It is not a constitutional power in itself, as some have claimed, to enact any law they personally feel is "necessary and proper."
Once again, bart makes an outrageous claim without authority, then says he must be right because there is no case to the contrary. In fact, there is no case holding either way on the constitutionality of FISA.
I have laid out my Article II authority and the cases which support it earlier on this thread.
Conversely, neither you, Glenn or anyone else here can cite me an Article I provision which refers to intelligence gathering or a single case which interprets any Article I provision to empower Congress to choose the targets of intelligence gathering as it has attempted to do through FISA.
It is upon this nothing, nada, zero, zilch which you claim the President is a law breaker.
Tell me again who is being outrageous?
Under Arlen Spector's amendment, Nixon would have had legal coverage to keep spying on whomever he wanted. That gives the phrase "When the President does it, that means it is not illegal" an ominous turn.
ReplyDeleteThe FLY,
ReplyDeleteSince you now fancy yourself an originalist scholar, you might enjoy this passage from a noted originalist jurist...
[Federalist Papers No. 74]
"THE President of the United States is to be "commander-in-chief of the army and navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several States WHEN CALLED INTO THE ACTUAL SERVICE of the United States."
The Air Force is unconstitutional. It must be disbanded immediately.
HWSNBN...I have laid out my Article II authority and the cases which support it earlier on this thread.
ReplyDeleteConversely, neither you, Glenn or anyone else here can cite me an Article I provision which refers to intelligence gathering or a single case which interprets any Article I provision to empower Congress to choose the targets of intelligence gathering as it has attempted to do through FISA.
It is upon this nothing, nada, zero, zilch which you claim the President is a law breaker.
Tell me again who is being outrageous?
Intelligence gathering
has historical precedent as a function of the congress. Outrageous!
Intelligence in the American Revolutionary War
Organization of Intelligence
The Secret Committee
The Second Continental Congress had created a Secret Committee by a resolution on September 18, 1775. The Committee was not however a true intelligence agency, as the Committee of Secret Correspondence with which it often worked, it was mainly concerned with obtaining military supplies in secret, and distributing them and selling gunpowder to privateers chartered by the Congress. The Committee also took over and administered on a uniform basis the secret contracts for arms and gunpowder previously negotiated by certain members of the Congress without the formal sanction of that body. The Committee kept its transactions secret, and destroyed many of its records to ensure the confidentiality of its work.
The Secret Committee employed agents overseas, often in cooperation with the Committee of Secret Correspondence. It gathered intelligence about secret Loyalist ammunition stores and arranged to seize them. The Committee also sent missions to seize British supplies in the southern colonies. It arranged the purchase of military stores through intermediaries so as to conceal the fact that Congress was the true purchaser. They then used foreign flags to attempt to protect its vessels from the British fleet.
The members of the Continental Congress appointed to the Committee included some of the most influential and responsible members of the Congress: Benjamin Franklin (Pennsylvania), Robert Morris (Pennsylvania), Robert Livingston (New York), John Dickinson (Pennsylvania), Thomas Willing (Pennsylvania), Thomas McKean (Delaware), John Langdon (New Hampshire), and Samuel Ward (Rhode Island).
The Committee of (Secret) Correspondence
Recognizing the need for foreign intelligence and foreign alliances, the Second Continental Congress created the Committee of Correspondence (soon renamed the Committee of Secret Correspondence) by a resolution of November 29, 1775:
RESOLVED, That a committee of five would be appointed for the sole purpose of corresponding with our friends in Great Britain, and other parts of the world, and that they lay their correspondence before Congress when directed;
RESOLVED, That this Congress will make provision to defray all such expenses as they may arise by carrying on such correspondence, and for the payment of such agents as the said Committee may send on this service.
The original Committee members — America's first foreign intelligence agency — were Benjamin Franklin (Pennsylvania), Benjamin Harrison (Virginia) and Thomas Johnson (Maryland). Subsequent appointees included James Lovell (Massachusetts), a teacher who had been arrested by the British after the battle of Bunker Hill on charges of spying. He had later been exchanged for a British prisoner and was then elected to the Continental Congress. On the Committee he became the Congress' expert on codes and ciphers and has been called the father of American cryptanalysis.
The committee employed secret agents abroad, conducted covert operations, devised codes and ciphers, funded propaganda activities, authorized the opening of private mail, acquired foreign publications for use in analysis, established a courier system, and developed a maritime capability apart from that of the Continental Navy, and engaged in regular communications with Britons and Scots who sympathized with the American cause. It met secretly in December 1775 with a French intelligence agent who visited Philadelphia under cover as a Flemish merchant.
On April 17, 1777, the Committee of Secret Correspondence was renamed the Committee of Foreign Affairs, but kept with its intelligence function. Matters of diplomacy were conducted by other committees or by the Congress as a whole. On January 10, 1781 the Department of Foreign Affairs — the forerunner of the Department of State — was created and tasked with "obtaining the most extensive and useful information relative to foreign affairs", the head of which was empowered to correspond "with all other persons from whom he may expect to receive useful information."
[edit]
The Committee on Spies
On June 5, 1776, the Congress appointed John Adams (Massachusetts), Thomas Jefferson (Virginia), Edward Rutledge (South Carolina), James Wilson (Pennsylvania) and Robert Livingston "to consider what is proper to be done with persons giving intelligence to the enemy or supplying them with provisions.": they were charged with revising the Articles of War in regard to espionage directed against the American forces. The problem was an urgent one; Dr. Benjamin Church, chief physician of the Continental Army, had already been seized and imprisoned as a British agent, but there was no civilian espionage act, and Washington thought the existing military law did not provide punishment severe enough to afford a deterrent. On November 7, 1775, the death penalty was added for espionage to the Articles of War, but the clause was not applied retroactively, and Dr. Church escaped execution.
On August 21, 1776, the Committee's report was considered by the Congress, which enacted the first espionage act:
RESOLVED, That all persons not members of, nor owing allegiance to, any of the United States of America, as described in a resolution to the Congress of the 29th of June last, who shall be found lurking as spies in or about the fortification or encampments of the armies of the United States, or of any of them, shall suffer death, according to the law and usage of nations, by sentence of a court martial, or such ether punishment as such court martial may direct.
It was resolved further that the act "be printed at the end of the rules and articles of war." On February 27, 1778, the law was broadened to include any "inhabitants of these states" whose intelligence activities aided the enemy in capturing or killing revolutionary forces.
Intelligence in the War of Independence
ReplyDeleteThe CinC of the day, Washington, "sought and obtained a "secret service fund" from the Continental Congress"... "Washington retained full and final authority over Continental Army intelligence activities..."
It would appear that historically a clear distinction between military and civilian intelligence gathering operations existed long before the Constitution came into being, with the Continental Congress retaining the purse strings over the military intelligence and actual control over the civilian operations. Curious.
Senate rejects U.S. troop pullout in Iraq
ReplyDeleteSo much for partisan balance. All of six Democrats voted for the pullout. Desperate times call for less naive people. Partisan balance = hogwash.
Meet George Soros, backer of Working Assets
ReplyDeleteIntelligence Techniques
ReplyDeleteSecrecy and Protection
The Committee of Secret Correspondence insisted that matters pertaining to the funding and instruction of intelligence agents be held within the Committee. In calling for the Committee members to "lay their proceedings before Congress," the Congress, by resolution, authorized "withholding the names of the persons they have employed, or with whom they have corresponded." On May 20, 1776, when the Committee's proceedings-with the sensitive names removed-were finally read in the Congress, it was "under the injunction of secrecy." The Continental Congress, recognizing the need for secrecy in regard to foreign intelligence, foreign alliances and military matters, maintained "Secret Journals," apart from its public journals, to record its decisions in such matters.
On November 9, 1775. the Continental Congress adopted its own oath of secrecy, one more stringent than the oaths of secrecy it would require of others in sensitive employment:
"RESOLVED, That every member of this Congress considers himself under the ties of virtue, honour and love of his country, not to divulge, directly or indirectly, any matter or thing agitated or debated in Congress, before the same shaft have been determined, without the leave of the Congress: nor any matter or thing determined in Congress, which a majority of the Congress shall order to be kept secret, And that if any member shall violate this agreement, he shall be expelled this Congress, and deemed an enemy to the liberties of America, and liable to be treated as such, and that every member signify his consent to this agreement by signing the same."
On June 12, 1776, the Continental Congress adopted the first secrecy agreement for employees of the new government. The required oath read:
"I do solemnly swear, that I will not directly or indirectly divulge any manner or thing which shall come to my knowledge as (clerk, secretary) of the board of War and Ordnance for the United Colonies. . . So help me God."
(...)
In 1779 George Washington and John Jay, the president of the Continental Congress and a close associate of the Commander in Chief's on intelligence matters, disagreed about the effect disclosure of some intelligence would have on sources and methods. Washington wanted to publicize certain encouraging information that he judged would give "a certain spring to our affairs" and bolster public morale. Jay replied that the intelligence "is unfortunately of such a Nature, or rather so circumstanced, as to render Secrecy necessary." Jay prevailed.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteMeet George Soros, backer of Working Assets
Cool! I want some of his money!
Meet George Soros.
Meet Richard Petty Deegan, wingnut on Rense.com!
Richard Petty Deegan is also very big on Chemtrail dispersion!
ReplyDeleteWheeeeeee! My propellor beanie is red-lining!
Educate yoursef! Insights on Zeta Reticulans and other Gray Alien Groups, Parts 1- 4
ReplyDeleteBart said:
ReplyDelete"Specter is attempting to make FISA legal so an overzealous court does not strike down the entire statute as unconstitutional."
What a crock. Specter's effort to do Darth Cheney's bidding by giving amnesty to White House crooks would effectively strike down the statute. So why would Specter care if a court did so?
Wheeeeee!
ReplyDeleteKen Adachi, Owner, Editor and supposed Businessman of Educate-yourself.org,(and probably an AKA of Richard Deegan Petty) Lies and Steals Money...
This is the factual recounting of evidence amassed since October 27th, 2005, the day pure Hell with Ken Adachi of educate-yourself.org began...the day the man himself received my money order for $435.00, and he still hasn't delivered anything, well over 6 months (ONE HALF OF A YEAR, folks!!) later...!
My Constitution Preceeds My Being
ReplyDeleteI come from Nixon's old congressional district and as God is my Fuhrer believe that:
We are in a state of constitutional crisis. For Rumsfeld to lobby on intelligence reform and now have military acts off the books means that the "linchpin" of the constitution, the taxing and spending powers of Congress, of raising standing armies, has now been violated. My Congressman David Dreier now has no way to effect neither my Liberty nor my Republic.
Our constitution was specifically designed to avoid this combination of the President's office with the Defense Department; that the King shall not have his own standing army to send willy-nilly to wherever he thinks he has the pleasure too. The appointment of a sitting General to an executive position - the CIA - only consoldates this dangerous process that is under play.
The basis for this power grab, the claim of inherent power of the president, has already been settled under Nixon's attempt during the so-called Vietnam War. As Nixon’s assistant attorney general Rehnquist made the argument of inherent power to wiretap the White Panther Party without a warrant – during a war. This power, which was claimed to be held, under the President’s Oath of Office, was rejected by the Supreme Court in a unanimous decision against suspending all or parts of the Constitution.
Because this was Rehnquist’s argument as assistant attorney general he had to recuse himself from his very first decision after being appointed to the Supreme Court and rightly so. And guess what? America was still standing in the morning after this and Nixon's resignation avoiding his impeachment. This is in spite of a average of 6 bombings a day, 86 killed policemen, and a record 33,604 thousand injuries between the fall of 1969 and spring of 1970 by our own citizens protesting over the illegal invasion of Cambodia. Not to mention the response and statistics to the the duration of the Vietnam war.
That is why I can never believe the neo-cons or Alitos et al., claims to absolute presidential power as Commander-and-Chief even during war. Unfortunately, old Rehnquist conveniently ignored this when he reviewed his history of the power of the President during war. He brings up WWI and WWII in this review. But, for some reason, he completely skips how his “inherent” argument on presidential power was slapped down by the Supreme Court during the undeclared, illegal and immoral so-called Vietnam War.
This is bald face intellectual dishonesty, if not outright historical revisionism, that completely belies the important decision on the necessity of War - not to mention the young lives thrown willy-nilly into harm's way. And so much for a responsible versus an irresponsible debates Mr. Bush but my Constitution preceeds my being.
This missing history is more reason why I completely reject the neo-con's medieval thesis that constitutional government is too weak to survive in a difficult world and that we should defer to a sole sovereign power since 9/11. In all have become weaker since taking on this post 9/11 repeat of Rehnquist's "in terrorem" position. (I would like to read his memo on the subject of presidential power and the invasion of Cambodia but alas that memo has disappeared, nowhere to be found on the Internet. The persuasive force of his ideas no longer count I can only suppose). I only fear that our new Supreme Court justices Roberts and Alito will take what was a tragedy we survived and turn a repeated claim of 18th century inherent power into a farce that destroys the sheet anchor of our Republic - our precious Constitution – along with the Bill of Rights.
I would rather throw Bush over board than my Constitutional Rights. And Specter if we have to!
I am Citizen Michael John Keenan
Rehnquists memo is now posted at the DOD.
bart and others:
ReplyDeleteyou are cowards. you took the time to try and refute many other arguments, yet I pose one simple, straightforware question and it is not answered. you say the president has a duty NOT to lawfully execute unconstitutional laws, yet he abides by FISA at his choosing.
answer this question or admit defeat:
why does the president use FISA at all? if it were truly unconstitutional as you say it is, he should be ignoring it in all instances, yet he clearly is not.
Please enlighten me with your article II brilliance.
I really don't see what the legislation is trying to do, except hand whatever Dubya want to him on a silver platter.
ReplyDeleteIf you think that warrants are needed (or the equivalent) for domestic wiretaps, you should say so. This legislation says nothing of the sort. Rather, it weakly says that the maladministration needs to come and ask a judge's permission to get a blessing for what they're doing ... and then basically hands the gummint attorneys the very tools they'll use [not that they weren't going to use them anyway, but when Congress gives its imprimatur, the court decision is a foregone conclusion] in arguing the "constitutionality" of the programs.
That wasn't the friggin' point, Arlen!!! FISA was passed because people were pissed at wiretapping abuses in the name of "national security". So they said: If you're going to do this, get a court order and show "probable cause" (albeit a slightly different "probable cause" than what is used for Title III or other criminal type warrants). Show cause and convince a judge, so we don't have random wiretaps for political purposes!
But this bill doesn't lay down that law. It folds, and says if the gummint "certifies" (not shows good cause, but just "certifies") that it's not being a bad boy, it can do what it wants. No individual warrants, no "particularar[ity]". Just a "we're being good boys for our entire program". And the only real challenge to it is a constitutional one -- which is a rigged fight, not just because of pre-FISA (and pre- showing-of-abuse) cases, but because Specter's law itself keeps yammering on about the preznit's "Article II" powers and his constitutional prerogatives.
There's no other way to put it: It prohibits nothing. It doesn't even pretend to hold Dubya's hand to the fire WRT the FISA law. And it does exactly what Glenn says it does: It acts retroactively to make "legal" what any sane person would say was illegal under FISA before, thus making any prior Dubya snooping now "legal". All it does is ask for the court's blessing ... but it fixes it so that the blessing is pretty much a done deal.
Shame, shame, shame.
Specter's ignored the abuses of the pre-FISA era, and thrown our liberties away.
Really. I haven't seen a law this bad in a long, long time. Even the supposed "bright spot" -- the provision for judical review -- is a Trojan Horse.
One other quite curious note (and read this if you want to see how insidious and how two-faced this law is):
The only mention of "probable cause" is this:
SEC. 701. DEFINITIONS.
(4) the term 'electronic surveillance' means the acquisition by an electronic, mechanical, or other surveillance device of the substance of any electronic communication sent by, received by, or intended to be received by a Unites State person who is in the United States, where there is probable cause to believe that the surveillance will intercept a communication in which a United States person in the United States participating in the communication has a reasonable expectation of privacy.
IOW, now the burden is not of the gummint to show probable cause as to why they should be allowed to witetap, but rather on the person who objects, who has to show that there's "probable cause" that the gummint should have seen that they maybe shouldn't have been tapping. In the absence of information, the default is to say that the tapping is OK!!!
One could argue, I suppose, that this provision here is just to delimit those cases where this new warrantless wiretapping in applicable, and that if no such probable cause is evident, that the old FISA laws apply. But that's not the way the gummint will argue it; they'll say that any surveillances that don't meet this standard are just "Get out of jail free" cards where anything goes.
What a perversion of those hallowed words "probable cause"....
*sheesh*
Yes, I'm outraged. What a stinking pile of maure this law is. If it's not intentially bad, it's so flimsy, you could drive a Erector-set Go-Kart through it.
Cheers,
ej quotes Specter:
ReplyDeleteHere's what Specter said about this yesterday, (published in USA Today):
Specter: 'My bill would light the way'
My legislation calls for the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to determine the constitutionality of the president's electronic surveillance program. It recognizes the importance of protecting our nation by keeping the program secret while protecting civil rights by providing for judicial review to guarantee the program is lawful.
I believe the program violates the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Notwithstanding that violation, the president might have the authority to order the surveillance under his inherent Article II constitutional authority, which supersedes a statute.
A determination of whether the president has such power depends on the court's balancing the national security interests against the Fourth Amendment's prohibition of unreasonable searches and seizures. The president does not have a "blank check." The determination of constitutionality is up to the court, which is uniquely qualified to make that judgment because of its unblemished record for secrecy and expertise.
What a crock.
See my last post. It ain't about constitutionality, it's about abuses of the wiretap facilities! FISA was passed to make sure that wiretaps were not abused, by calling for court overview and approval of surveillances, based on "probable cause". This bill does away with that, and the only fig leaf it throws out is a purported court challenge avenue for the program as a whole, where the game has been rigged in advance. No digging into whether abuses have happened in individual cases, and more importantly, no individualised oversight of specific surveillances by the court to make sure the above doesn't happen. Rather, the program as whole will be measured for "constitutionality", not abuse. Keep in mind that FISA was passed to prevent ertswhile "constitutional" but still abusive surveillances.
Cheers,
Top court upholds no-knock police search By GINA HOLLAND, Associated Press Writer
ReplyDeleteThu Jun 15, 7:05 PM ET
WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court made it easier Thursday for police to barge into homes and seize evidence without knocking or waiting, a sign of the court's new conservatism with Samuel Alito on board.
The court, on a 5-4 vote, said judges cannot throw out evidence collected by police who have search warrants but do not properly announce their arrival.
It was a significant rollback of earlier rulings protective of homeowners, even unsympathetic homeowners like Booker Hudson, who had a loaded gun next to him and cocaine rocks in his pocket when Detroit police entered his unlocked home in 1998 without knocking.
The court's five-member conservative majority, anchored by new Chief Justice John Roberts and Alito, said that police blunders should not result in "a get-out-of-jail-free card" for defendants.
Dissenting justices predicted that police will now feel free to ignore previous court rulings requiring officers with search warrants to knock and announce themselves to avoid running afoul of the Constitution's Fourth Amendment ban on unreasonable searches.
"The knock-and-announce rule is dead in the United States," said David Moran, a Wayne State University professor who represented Hudson. "There are going to be a lot more doors knocked down. There are going to be a lot more people terrified and humiliated."
Supporters said the ruling will help police do their jobs.
"People who are caught red-handed with evidence of guilt have one less weapon to get off," said Kent Scheidegger, legal director of the Criminal Justice Legal Foundation.
The case provides the clearest sign yet of the court without Justice Sandra Day O'Connor.
Hudson had lost his case in a Michigan appeals court. Justices agreed to hear his appeal last June, four days before O'Connor's surprise announcement that she was retiring.
O'Connor was still on the bench in January when his case was first argued, and she seemed ready to vote with Hudson. "Is there no policy of protecting the home owner a little bit and the sanctity of the home from this immediate entry?" she asked.
She retired before the case was decided, and a new argument was held this spring so that Alito could participate, apparently to break a 4-4 tie.
Four justices, including Alito and Roberts, would have given prosecutors a more sweeping victory but did not have the vote of Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, a moderate conservative.
Ronald Allen, a Northwestern University Law professor, said the ruling "suggests those four would be happy to consider overturning" a 1961 Supreme Court opinion that said evidence collected in violation of the Fourth Amendment cannot be used in trials. "It would be a significant change," he said.
Kennedy joined in most of the ruling but wrote to explain that he did not support ending the knock requirement. "It bears repeating that it is a serious matter if law enforcement officers violate the sanctity of the home by ignoring the requisites of lawful entry," he said.
Kennedy said that legislatures can intervene if police officers do not "act competently and lawfully." He also said that people whose homes are wrongly searched can file a civil rights lawsuit.
Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the majority, said that there are public-interest law firms and attorneys who specialize in civil rights grievances.
Translation: let them eat cake.
Detroit police acknowledge violating the knock-and-announce rule when they called out their presence at Hudson's door, failed to knock, then went inside three seconds to five seconds later. The court has endorsed longer waits, of 15 seconds to 20 seconds. Hudson was convicted of drug possession.
"Whether that preliminary misstep had occurred or not, the police would have executed the warrant they had obtained, and would have discovered the gun and drugs inside the house," Scalia wrote.
Four justices complained in the dissent that the decision erases more than 90 years of Supreme Court precedent.
"It weakens, perhaps destroys, much of the practical value of the Constitution's knock-and-announce protection," Justice Stephen Breyer wrote for himself and Justices John Paul Stevens, David H. Souter and Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
Breyer said that while police departments can be sued, there is no evidence of anyone collecting much money in such cases.
The case is Hudson v. Michigan, 04-1360.
Who TF is talking about money? These are not insurance malpractice suits. This is about a police state where a citizen isn't safe even in the sanctity of his own home.
At what point are hypatia and jao going to admit how wrong they were about Alito?
Anyway it's open season on American blacks now who always bear the brunt of this type of outrageous intrusion on an American citizen's civil liberties and were always at the wrong end of police brutality and bullying.
Nobody cares about blacks anymore now that Hispanic illegal immigrants have become all the rage and the toast of the cocktail weenie set. Theirs are the votes being solicited, and theirs is the slave labor being exploited for the benefit of the corporatist fourth branch of government.
(See Freedomland, the movie)
And WTF is the matter with Clarence Thomas, a person I once respected? Has he gone mad?
RIP: The Fourth Amendment:
It was great fun,
But it was just one
Of those things.
To Arne or Glenn -
ReplyDeleteCan you clarify something for me? The way FISA is presently worded, could it be used simply to authorize open-ended intelligence gathering, or is it geared solely to contribute towards criminal prosecution?
If its the former case, there goes the last fig leaf argument some of our contrarians have been claiming.
I sware bart reminds me of Hugh Hewitt , conservative crackpot constitutional theorist and someone who may just be trolling this blog.
ReplyDeleteHe write exactly like him.
At what point are hypatia and jao going to admit how wrong they were about Alito?
ReplyDeleteBwahahaha!
These morons have been wrong their entire lives. Way to go, connie! You're doing a heckuva job! Now's the time for HUAC! Bring back McCarthy! Better dead than red.
It's time to kill a connie for Christ!
RIP: 4th Amendment
ReplyDeleteTime to start rigging shotguns to doors. No knock? No problem! NO HEAD!
Nuf Said said...
ReplyDeleteBart: "I have laid out my Article II authority and the cases which support it earlier on this thread."
From Glenn Sunday, February 19, 2006
"...the arguments you raised are just the DoJ's basic arguments that have been around for awhile. I have addressed each of them multiple times..."
"And it isn't just me who has answered them and argued that they lack merit - scores of conservative legal scholars and pundits have as well."
3:04 PM
At no point in his book or on this blog since I have been here has Glenn offered an Article I provision which empowers Congress to choose the targets of intelligence gathering or a single case which interprets Article I in that way.
None.
Using the Clinton" that is old news" spin does not conceal the fact that Glenn has no legal authority for his position.
I note that Glenn studiously avoids my challenge to provide legal authority despite having the time to post here on multiple occasions.
My motion to dismiss Glenn's indictment would be granted by a court right now.
Anonymous 12:05 AM, 12:36 AM,
ReplyDeleteThat's interesting, but didn't all that stuff occur before the present Constitution was even ratified?
sean nyc/aa 2:23 AM,
"why does the president use FISA at all?"
It is possible that while some provisions of FISA are unconstitutional, some are not.
For example, FISA seems to have originated with a silly congressional impulse to redefine the president's inherent power to authorize surveillance for national security purposes [by requiring FISA warrants] in an attempt to constrain the presidents inherent power [unconstitutional].
Warrants for domestic law enforcement were required before FISA, and would still be required today without FISA because of the 4th Amendment. As the Attorney General himself pointed out, warrants are still generally required and desirable for domestic law enforcement.
Hence, as the administration explains it, they use warrant less surveillance only for narrowly targeted foreign intelligence gathering [international communications with one party outside the US].
FISA Bonus Question No. 1: Even if the government obtains a FISA warrant, how would one know whether or not their constitutional rights are being upheld if the top secret court won't even acknowledge that it exists, let alone allow you to access the courts records?
FISA Bonus Question No. 2: Is a top secret court even constitutional to begin with?
FISA Bonus Question No. 3: How would a US citizen challenge a FISA court decision?
Bueller...? Anyone....?
aqualung 8:45 AM,
"tell all of us in plain language how our constitution prevents a president from going to war unjustly and solely to consolidate power and govern like a monarch"
There are two constitutional options that I know of:
1) Stop funding the military, 2) Impeachment.
JaO 11:32 PM,
ReplyDelete"A view of the Constitution that gives the Executive authority to use military force rather than the force of law against citizens on American soil flies in the face of the mistrust that engendered these provisions."
Oops, I missed your comment there. That's all good, but who's talking about using military force against citizens?
Gosh Bart, YOU WIN!!!!
ReplyDeleteWOW, the resemblance between you and GW Bush is remarkable. Both astute men of intellect, wide ranging interests, and rugged warriors both.
We are so lucky to have the two of you!
From Bart at 10:19AM:
ReplyDelete"At no point in his book or on this blog since I have been here has Glenn offered an Article I provision which empowers Congress to choose the targets of intelligence gathering or a single case which interprets Article I in that way."
Article I.8.14.
Your repeated claims this only resulted in the UCMJ, while basically accurate, misses the more fundamental point that Congress still has the authority to oversee, limit, or terminate this program under this provision; the NSA is part of the DoD, and as such falls under this specific provision.
The fact Congress has not done so to date does not mean the authority granted by that particular provision is no longer operable or has no future application.
The whole 'choose the targets of intelligence gathering' angle is a red herring that really needs to be repainted at this point. The question is whether such 'targeting' can be done without oversight or clear parameters.
wg:
ReplyDeleteTwo other aspects of this new bill.
a) the official line is that the existing NSA surveillance program is OK because it's just an anonymous fishing expedition and because they never check the content of intercepted communications. Just from whom to whom, and when.
True, but there are apparently at least two NSA programs: The pervasive snoops on call data records you mention here, and also a program of targeted intercepts of at least international calls of "U.S. persons" within the U.S.
While Specter's bill defines "electronic surveillance" to exclude the "pen register"/"trap'n'trace" type snoops you mention, the original FISA did cover such wiretaps as well. I don't know if this new law effectively or explicitly repeals the FISA restrictions on such "call data" snoops.
b) per Specter the review of present and future electronic surveillance programs will the responsibility of FISA court of REVIEW not FISA court proper. This is a huge difference.
There's a reason for the difference. Look carefully at what the FISA Court of Review is allowed/empowered to do: NOT rule on the particulars of any individual cases as to whether some standard of evidence had been met to merit the insallation of a wiretap. No, the Court of Review is to be the sole court of jurisdiction (with cert to the SCOTUS) to decide the one issue: Is the program as a whole constitutional?
That's why they can get by with the FISA Court of Appeals; the courts will no longer issue individual warrants (oh, let's say, "particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized") for taps; they'll have to just bless the whole program (and that on the basis of bare "constitutionality" for the most part).
FWIW:
What would be handy is if someone could do a cut'n'paste of the old laws together with the laws as amended (I get a little confused trying to follow the title "sections" versus the "xxx USC yyy" designations in the existing code). It would be handy to be able to look at the entirety of FISA as amended and appended by this new law to see what remains and see what the full new legal landscape will be...
Cheers,
The insect... Oops, I missed your comment there. That's all good, but who's talking about using military force against citizens?
ReplyDeleteMost of us, about 70% of the population, pray daily that our military will be used against people like you and Bart "who just happen to live here" and were secretly quite pleased when Timothy McVeigh blew up the federal building in OKC because Clinton was in office. If not our military, we'll take the U.N., anybody at this point, to rid us of you un-American citizens that have slithered into the highest offices in government. Death to all fascists, whatever they call themselves and wherever they are from. They are a threat to peace and freedom. The rest of the world feels the same way.
US seen as a bigger threat to peace than Iran, worldwide poll suggests
· Findings also show fall in support for war on terror
· Decline in America's image 'all to do with Iraq'
George Bush's six years in office have so damaged the image of the US that people worldwide see Washington as a bigger threat to world peace than Tehran, according to a global poll.
The Washington-based Pew Research Centre, in a poll of 17,000 people in 15 countries between March and May, found more people concerned about the US presence in Iraq than about Iran's alleged nuclear weapons ambitions.
The Pew Centre said: "Despite growing concern over Iran's nuclear ambitions, the US presence in Iraq is cited at least as often as Iran - and in many countries much more often - as a danger to world peace."
The survey, carried out annually, shows a continued decline in support for the US since 1999. The US image for most of the 20th century has been relatively positive, being regularly identified with democracy, human rights and openness in spite of criticism from the left, which reached a height during the Vietnam war, and a residual suspicion in the Muslim world.
But even in the UK, Washington's closest ally, favourable ratings have slumped from 83% in 1999 to 56% this year. The pattern is similar in France, down from 62% to 39%, Germany 78% to 37%, and Spain 50% to 23%.
In Muslim countries with which the US has traditionally enjoyed a good relationship, such as Turkey - a member of Nato - and Indonesia, there have also been slumps. In Indonesia favourable ratings for the US have dropped from 75% to 30%, and in Turkey from 52% to 12%.
"It's all [because of] Iraq," Carroll Doherty, associate director of the Pew Centre, said. He added that it was a sign of how "dangerous Iraq is to the US image" that, in spite of common cause between the US and Europeans on Iran, there had been no improvement in the American position in Europe.
Mr Doherty said: "Short-term measures do have an effect. The outpouring of US tsunami aid helped in Indonesia and India but that faded quickly, and now we see US aid for Pakistan earthquake victims only helping at the margins." Favourable ratings of the US in India dropped over the year from 71% to 56%.
He said US domestic polling indicated that Americans were well aware of how the country was perceived abroad. The US image has become a political issue, with Republicans saying it doesn't matter as long as the correct policies are being pursued overseas, while Democrats argue that repairing the country's image and relationships will be a priority for the next president in 2009.
The poll provides little comfort for Condoleezza Rice, who has worked hard at improving relations with Europe since becoming Secretary of State last year.
As part of the overall decline in US support, the survey also records a drop in support for the US-led "war on terror", even in countries such as Spain, in spite of the Madrid bombings two years ago by al-Qaida that left 192 dead. Support for the "war on terror" dropped in Spain from 26% last year to 19% this year.
I read the fevered arguments of present-day monarchist "lawyers" like Bart with both amusement and disgust. What law schools have created such monsters of sophistry?
ReplyDeleteIf Congress had the constitutional power to create the vast network of federal surveillance agencies that exist today, then surely (logically) it must have the power simply to regulate their operations.
If FISA has constitutional difficulties to a "conservative" like Bart, then what supports the creation by Congress of such purely civilian agencies such as the FBI and the CIA?
"Conservatives" better watch it, or, thanks to the Roberts Court, their 21st century monarch might find himself without a police-state apparatus with which to conduct his tyranny!
But never fear, the constitution does provide a basis for our modern police state. First, NSA to the extent it is a military agency, is clearly the child of Art I, sec 8, cl 14, which permits Congress to make rules for the regulation of the land and naval forces (the same forces over which the president is commander in chief).
Second, the old reliable Commerce power Art. I, sec. 8, cl 3, supports creating those agencies which currently comprise our modern police state, such as NSA and CIA.
And finally, as quaint as it may sound to monsters like Bart, a sensible, mature reading of the constitution would conclude that Congress has the power to pass laws which effectuate the Fourth Amendment, and assure citizens of its protections, especially in the face of the creation of federal agencies which so imperil it.
If all Glenn needs is a constitutional basis for FISA, he doesn't have anything to worry about.
The FLY said...
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 12:05 AM, 12:36 AM,
That's interesting, but didn't all that stuff occur before the present Constitution was even ratified?
And your point, (other than you can't read and comprehend the written word), would be... what?
Anonymous said...
Intelligence in the War of Independence
The CinC of the day, Washington, "sought and obtained a "secret service fund" from the Continental Congress"... "Washington retained full and final authority over Continental Army intelligence activities..."
It would appear that historically a clear distinction between military and civilian intelligence gathering operations existed long before the Constitution came into being, with the Continental Congress retaining the purse strings over the military intelligence and actual control over the civilian operations. Curious.
Glenn said:
ReplyDelete(1) The whole point of the NSA scandal is that a President may have the constitutional authority to engage in certain actions (such as warrantless eavesdropping for foreign intelligence gathering), but once Congress regulates or limits that authority -- as it did under FISA -- then the President has no right to violate that law in exercising his powers. That's the whole point of Youngstown -- that the President can engage in certain acts constitutionally in the absence of Congressional limits, but once Congress imposes limits, the President is constrained by them.
What we have currently under FISA is a situation where the President claims an Article II power (eavesdropping) but Congress has LIMITED that power (by requiring warrants for it). Thus, currently, we have the Youngstown situation -- the Court would have to decide whether the President can ignore Congressional limits on his power.
But Specter's bill changes all of that. It specifically provides that nothing in the bill is intended to limit the President's inherent eavesdropping powers in any way, which means that Congress is saying that there is no longer a conflict between FISA and the President's "inherent authority." Instead, the President's "inherent authority" -- which was always limited by FISA -- no longer is. Instead, the President can exercise that authority with no limits at all.
Yes. My thoughts as well. If we take HWSNBN's well-known and oft-repeated "argument" for the warrantless wiretapping in contravention of FISA, it is that the preznit has some vaguely defined (to say the least) "inherent" power to do this that cannot be restricted by Congress at all, and that to the extent that FISA does so, it is unconstitutional. Of course, this is a different argument from whether FISA wiretaps are unconstitutional because they don't, for example, meet all the requirements of a Title III warrant (and it is this latter question that was decided in In re: Sealed Case, even though HWSNBN keeps touting In re: as some case "deciding" the former issue to the contrary WRT the constitutionality of FISA). Even though both are 'arguments about the "constitutionality" of FISA', they are quite different and with quite different effect WRT civil liberties.
Here, Specter's law, while seemingly being a vehicle for providing a court venue for deciding if the warrantless wiretaps Dubya's been doing have gone too far in contravening the plain requirements of FISA, is actually a stealth means for an adjudication of the opposite.
This is the important part:
Because it amends (and does so retroactively) FISA so that FISA and the preznit's spying are no longer statutorily at loggerheads, it eliminates the "constitutionality" question as to whether the preznit, because of some "emanations" and "penumbras" in Article II, may act contrary to express Congressional intent ... and even goes out of its way to emphasize that by repeatedly touting the preznit's supposed authority. But by removing this conflict (and by doing so retroactively; which, come to think of it, may have been the point of the retroactivity), the constitutional confrontation between the preznit and Congress -- whether Congress can actually rein in the preznit and make him obey the law -- is removed as an issue from the court, and the only remaining constitutional issue is whether the law (as implemented by the preznit) contravenes the Fourth Amendment.
In essence, Specter (and Congress, if it goes along) has pretended -- with bluster and feigned fury -- to face down the maladministration, but in the end has put his tail between his legs and -- neutered -- turned away. With this law, FISA is dead, we have no test of what limits there are to a preznit's actions to "protect national security" as he "sees fit", and Nixon's maladministration is cheering from the grave. "When the president does it, it's not illegal."
Cheers,
Glenn said:
ReplyDelete(2)If -- as he claims -- all Specter were saying was that the Bush Administration's Article II defense may be true -- i.e., that the President has the right to eavesdrop without warrants and nothing Congres can do can interfere with that right -- then there is absolutely no point whatsoever in amending the criminal provisions of FISA. If the President's Article II power really trumps FISA, then that would be so whether FISA was amended or not.
Quite true. Absent this new law, a court case (if appropriate standing could be established to get in the door) might have adressed the conflict between the executive and Congress. But, not only does the new legislation remove the conflict by amending FISA to (nominally) "allow" such programs as Dubya's doing (as long as they're given the once-over for "constitutional" issues -- of which only the Forth Amendment one remains after this change of law), but it also provides "persuasive authority" for any other arguments Dubya (or more exactly, Yoo and company) might make for a "unitary executive". "See, Congress agrees with me! I can do whatever I want as long as I'm the Decider-In-Chief...."
*sheesh*
Cheers,
the fly said:
ReplyDeleteStatutes, [such as FISA] no matter what the language, cannot constrain the president's inherent constitutional power [and duty] to defend the nation against foreign attacks.
But, fly, according to you, FISA does not take away the power of the President. So this statement is irrelevant and/or untrue.
What puzzles me is does Bush seriously think this will in any way salvage either his standing as President or his Administration's authority?
ReplyDeleteI'll leave the more obvious question as to whether he actually *thinks* alone for the moment.
Glenn said:
ReplyDeleteThus, the only possible reason to amend that provision of FISA is to add a new mechanism for the President to eavesdrop legally that does not currently exist ...
Not sure of that. I suspect it may have been instead to defang any potential suits that might go against the preznit on his "unitary executive" grounds (and to make sure that the "issues have been framed" appropriately in any court cases as to the legality of the programs -- that is to say, do they violate the Fourth Amendment? -- while doing its best to make sure that any such cases will also find the programs constitutonal). Lost is any consideration as to whether we should be letting the preznit snoop on whoever he wants on whatever basis he wants without some kind of check. I think the provisions in there about whether the programs have "minimization" procedures and actually adhere in practise to what they purport to do are smokescreen -- courts tend to be loath to second-guess executive implementations and give the executive wide leeway, as long as the executive can be argued to nominally be falling within the strict outer bounds of statute ... of which there really are none here.
Cheers,
Cheers,
Most of us, about 70% of the population, pray daily that our military will be used against people like you and Bart...
ReplyDeleteThis is a stupid remark.
Do you, yourself, pray to God? And if you do, do you really pray to God that our military "will be used against people like you and Bart..."?
And if you actually do pray to God that this happens, do you think 150 million other Americans do the same every day?
No, I didn't think so.
To Arne -
ReplyDeletePerhaps you can clarify a point for me about FISA: the way the statute is presently worded, is it purely in service of criminal prosecution, or is it sufficiently open-ended that it could authorize plain-old intelligence gathering?
"The Fly":
ReplyDeleteGriffin Bell, Jimmy Carter's Attorney General, [Carter signed FISA into law in 1978] made the same observations about FISA when testifying before Congress nearly 30 years ago back in 1977:
[Washington Times]
"When Mr. Bell testified in favor of FISA, he told Congress that while the measure doesn't explicitly acknowledge the 'inherent power of the president to conduct electronic surveillance,' it 'does not take away the power of the president under the Constitution.'"
But this is a truism. Obviously FISA did limit the preznit's powers (that was its whole point, afterall). But it can't "take away the power of the president under the Constitution" (whatever such power(s) may be), seeing as it's not a Constitutional amendment.
Cheers,
bart said:
ReplyDeleteIf say a President Clinton has no problem violating the law by say spying on the RNC, exactly why should she care about abiding with FISA?
I'm still not sure I understand your hypothetical, but I'll give it another go. I think you're describing a scenario that asks, "if a person has no problem committing a crime, then why should he care about abiding by the law?", or something like that.
The answer is, simply, that everybody, even "criminals", understand that there are consequences to breaking the law, and it is in the best interest of the criminal to minimize those consequences.
So, with regards to President Bush and FISA- in my opinion, I don't think President Bush cares about abiding by FISA. I don't think he has much respect for the rule of law in general. I do think, however, that he cares a great deal about appearing to abide by FISA and the law in general. Even President Bush understands the political consequences of being a lawbreaker, and he will fight to minimize or eliminate that perception.
So the President and his sycophants (like you) run around throwing up all sorts of arguments in order to avoid being labelled as a lawbreaker and to minimize the political damage:
1. The AUMF makes it legal
2. Article 2 makes it legal
3. Clinton did it too
4. Congress was in on it too
5. FISA is too hard to obey
6. Not many people were wiretapped
7. 9/11! 9/11! 9/11!
8. It's classified, no details
9. We talky talky, terrorists win
10. No judicial review- see #8
And on and on it goes...
Bart, have you ever considered that the President and the Administration might be lying when they talk about the warrantless surveillance program?
HWSNBN trots out his silly canard about FISA and hopes it will fly:
ReplyDeleteThe rub is that FISA is used frequently to gather criminal evidence in national security cases.
HWSNBN frequently insists (as he must) that teh preznit has Article II powers (unassailable from act of Congress) to do "national security" wiretaps, and that FISA's only use is in providing evidence for criminal trials. This is not true for a couple of reasons:
1). The FISA law was enacted to cover situations where a "national security" need was being invoked for a surveillance and when conventional Title III courts simply weren't appropriate. Congress could have simply banned any such extra-Title III surveillances and made the executive use the tools at hand, ill-suited on restrictive as they might be, for situatons of genuine national security concerns. As it was, it was intended to carefully circumscribe what types of surveillances were permissible in the realm of "national security" (to prevent the abuses of the Nixon and earlier administrations), to provide a structure and checks on the process to prevent unwarranted surveillances, and to remove from contention one executive objection (that Title III courts were "unsecure" and burdensome because of secrecy concerns, and insisting that they needed -- due to "exigent circumstances -- a back-door method to do surveillances in "national security" cases) to using existing Title III laws for such surveillances. A sop to the executive: "OK, you have 'special needs', now follow our rules and do it by the book..." FISA was designed to handle the special circumstances and address the needs of "national security" wiretaps. It was not designed, contrary to HWSNBN's assertion, to provide a means for the introduction of such intelligence gathered into criminal prosecutions.
2). FISA cases since then have made clear that when the case does become a criminal case, the traditional Title III (and Fourth Amendment) concerns come into play.
HWSNBN wants to draw the line between "national security" and "criminal" investigation between Dubya's warrantless and unrestricted snooping on the one side, and both FISA and Title III on the other. But the actual division is between FISA for "national security" investigations, and Title III for criminal prosecutions.
Cheers,
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteGlen, you are getting yourself all tied up in logic boxes from which you cannot escape, but the answer is easy. The reason to amend FISA, even though the President's Article II power trumps it as applied to intelligence gathering, is so that FISA is not an unconstitutional encroachment on the President's Article II powers.
But if that were true, it wouldn't need to be retroactive to save FISA. FISA (as amended, argunendo to make it now constitutional), is now constitutional, and survives. Retroactivity does nothing to help that "purpose".
Cheers,
But if that were true, it wouldn't need to be retroactive to save FISA. FISA (as amended, argunendo to make it now constitutional), is now constitutional, and survives. Retroactivity does nothing to help that "purpose".
ReplyDeleteIt does, however, remove any possibility that Democrats will attempt, once again, to criminalize their policy differences with the administration. The public is sick of this tactic, and will support retroactivity on that basis alone.
bart said:
ReplyDeleteThen you fund NSA and impeach the President for misusing it.
That does nothing to prevent Executive abuse in the first place, bart. You're essentially setting up a system that dares Congress to impeach a President for abuse after the fact.
bart said:
Elections have consequences.
The job of running intelligence gathering is a plenary Presidential power.
When you elect a person to be President, you are electing him or her to do this job.
But that assumes that the public is informed of the President's alleged "plenary" power to conduct warrantless surveillance on American citizens. We weren't, including you, thanks to the efforts of the President to conceal this activity.
The public wasn't informed that FISA doesn't apply to the President's surveillance activities, because FISA is allegedly un-Constitutional. You yourself confessed to not knowing about FISA until this story broke, so even you made a decision to elect a President without being fully informed of the "consequences" you mention. So, elections are not a proper preemptive tool to check Executive abuse, either. Not for you, not for anyone.
Maybe I should take a step back and make sure you care about Executive abuse of surveillance power. Bart, do you agree that it's important to stop abusive surveillance before it begins?
We've already discussed defunding the NSA, impeachment, and elections, but none are preemptive checks on Executive abuse. How can we preemptively (and Constitutionally) check Executive abuse?
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteI have posted repeatedly that if you can prove that the President is using the NSA to spy in political opponents like Nixon and Clinton did with the FBI files, then we can talk about impeachment.
On what basis? What legal basis? Assuming arguendo your peculiar view of the preznit's powers, where do you draw the line on what's permissible and what isn't?
Moreover, the Article I power to regulate the Army and Navy has always been held to concern setting rules for the individual good order and conduct of members of the uniformed services like they did by enacting the UCMJ.
Typo. Let me fix that:
"Moreover, the Article I power to regulate the Army and Navy has always been held to concern only and exclusively setting rules for the individual good order and conduct of members of the uniformed services like they did by enacting the UCMJ."
Then the problme is in finding cites to support your assertion that courts have "always ... held" this. Have at it, my man. Should be a piece of cake, seeing as they're all over the place.
Cheers,
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 10:19AM:
Bart: "At no point in his book or on this blog since I have been here has Glenn offered an Article I provision which empowers Congress to choose the targets of intelligence gathering or a single case which interprets Article I in that way."
Article I.8.14.
Your repeated claims this only resulted in the UCMJ, while basically accurate, misses the more fundamental point that Congress still has the authority to oversee, limit, or terminate this program under this provision; the NSA is part of the DoD, and as such falls under this specific provision.
Once again, this Article I provision has always been limited to the uniformed services. UCMJ does not apply to the civilians in NSA simply because if falls under the DoD bureaucracy.
Therefore...
IF Article I.8.14 applied to intelligence gathering, which it does not under its text or under any court interpretation, and
IF FISA was enacted under Article I.8.14, which it was not under its text or legislative history,
THEN FISA would still be limited to the uniformed service like the Army and Navy under the text of Article I.8.14 to now include the Air Force.
The whole 'choose the targets of intelligence gathering' angle is a red herring that really needs to be repainted at this point. The question is whether such 'targeting' can be done without oversight or clear parameters.
What does FISA do if not choose permissible targets of electronic surveillance?
cfaller96 12:33 PM,
ReplyDelete"But, fly, according to you, FISA does not take away the power of the President. So this statement is irrelevant and/or untrue."
Well, cfcaller96, I'll try it once again in the interest of science...
FISA, a statute, which states that it alone shall be "the exclusive means by which electronic surveillance may be conducted" cannot take away the president's inherent constitutional power to authorize warrant less surveillance [of anyone, US person or not] in certain national security cases.
Hence since a statute cannot take away the president's inherent constitutional power, it does not, regardless of the language in FISA that suggests otherwise.
Again, also see my comment upthread quoting former Attorney General Griffin Bell.
JaO 1:48 PM,
"He and his minions claim that the 2001 Authorization for the Use of Military Force encompasses domestic surveillance within the definition of 'military force.'""
Actually, I think the government is claiming that the AUMF authorizes international surveillance of a foreign enemy [one party outside the US], not "domestic surveillance".
And, Hamdi was captured by the US military in Afghanistan as an enemy combatant on the battlefield, not arrested here in the US.
[Federalist Society]
Worse than amnesty!
ReplyDeleteWhat Specter was proposing was worse than an amnesty. An offer of amnesty is typically more like a pardon: it forgives past transgressions in the interest of obtaining a better if imperfect future. Specter was proposing to legalize past crimes. In effect Specter is well on the way to legitimizing the Nuremberg Defense; in the future any crime committed by a member of the executive branch (which includes the military) would be able to escape prosecution by claiming they were just following the orders of the president---Sieg Heil?
yankeependragon:
ReplyDeleteSorry, long thread already, and I'm not ignoring your question.
Perhaps you can clarify a point for me about FISA: the way the statute is presently worded, is it purely in service of criminal prosecution, or is it sufficiently open-ended that it could authorize plain-old intelligence gathering?
What are procedures and requirements and permissible purposes (or circumstances) for getting a FISA "warrant":
Here:
(a) Submission by Federal officer; approval of Attorney General; contents
Each application for an order approving electronic surveillance under this subchapter shall be made by a Federal officer in writing upon oath or affirmation to a judge having jurisdiction under section 1803 of this title. Each application shall require the approval of the Attorney General based upon his finding that it satisfies the criteria and requirements of such application as set forth in this subchapter. It shall include—
(1) the identity of the Federal officer making the application;
(2) the authority conferred on the Attorney General by the President of the United States and the approval of the Attorney General to make the application;
(3) the identity, if known, or a description of the target of the electronic surveillance;
(4) a statement of the facts and circumstances relied upon by the applicant to justify his belief that—
(A) the target of the electronic surveillance is a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power; and
(B) each of the facilities or places at which the electronic surveillance is directed is being used, or is about to be used, by a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power;
(5) a statement of the proposed minimization procedures;
(6) a detailed description of the nature of the information sought and the type of communications or activities to be subjected to the surveillance;
(7) a certification or certifications by the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs or an executive branch official or officials designated by the President from among those executive officers employed in the area of national security or defense and appointed by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate—
(A) that the certifying official deems the information sought to be foreign intelligence information;
(B) that a significant purpose of the surveillance is to obtain foreign intelligence information;
(C) that such information cannot reasonably be obtained by normal investigative techniques;
(D) that designates the type of foreign intelligence information being sought according to the categories described in section 1801 (e) of this title; and
(E) including a statement of the basis for the certification that—
(i) the information sought is the type of foreign intelligence information designated; and
(ii) such information cannot reasonably be obtained by normal investigative techniques;
(8) a statement of the means by which the surveillance will be effected and a statement whether physical entry is required to effect the surveillance;
(9) a statement of the facts concerning all previous applications that have been made to any judge under this subchapter involving any of the persons, facilities, or places specified in the application, and the action taken on each previous application;
(10) a statement of the period of time for which the electronic surveillance is required to be maintained, and if the nature of the intelligence gathering is such that the approval of the use of electronic surveillance under this subchapter should not automatically terminate when the described type of information has first been obtained, a description of facts supporting the belief that additional information of the same type will be obtained thereafter; and
(11) whenever more than one electronic, mechanical or other surveillance device is to be used with respect to a particular proposed electronic surveillance, the coverage of the devices involved and what minimization procedures apply to information acquired by each device.
Can FISA information be used in criminal courts?:
Here:
(a) Compliance with minimization procedures; privileged communications; lawful purposes
Information acquired from an electronic surveillance conducted pursuant to this subchapter concerning any United States person may be used and disclosed by Federal officers and employees without the consent of the United States person only in accordance with the minimization procedures required by this subchapter. No otherwise privileged communication obtained in accordance with, or in violation of, the provisions of this subchapter shall lose its privileged character. No information acquired from an electronic surveillance pursuant to this subchapter may be used or disclosed by Federal officers or employees except for lawful purposes.
(b) Statement for disclosure
No information acquired pursuant to this subchapter shall be disclosed for law enforcement purposes unless such disclosure is accompanied by a statement that such information, or any information derived therefrom, may only be used in a criminal proceeding with the advance authorization of the Attorney General.
(c) Notification by United States
Whenever the Government intends to enter into evidence or otherwise use or disclose in any trial, hearing, or other proceeding in or before any court, department, officer, agency, regulatory body, or other authority of the United States, against an aggrieved person, any information obtained or derived from an electronic surveillance of that aggrieved person pursuant to the authority of this subchapter, the Government shall, prior to the trial, hearing, or other proceeding or at a reasonable time prior to an effort to so disclose or so use that information or submit it in evidence, notify the aggrieved person and the court or other authority in which the information is to be disclosed or used that the Government intends to so disclose or so use such information.
(d) Notification by States or political subdivisions
Whenever any State or political subdivision thereof intends to enter into evidence or otherwise use or disclose in any trial, hearing, or other proceeding in or before any court, department, officer, agency, regulatory body, or other authority of a State or a political subdivision thereof, against an aggrieved person any information obtained or derived from an electronic surveillance of that aggrieved person pursuant to the authority of this subchapter, the State or political subdivision thereof shall notify the aggrieved person, the court or other authority in which the information is to be disclosed or used, and the Attorney General that the State or political subdivision thereof intends to so disclose or so use such information.
(e) Motion to suppress
Any person against whom evidence obtained or derived from an electronic surveillance to which he is an aggrieved person is to be, or has been, introduced or otherwise used or disclosed in any trial, hearing, or other proceeding in or before any court, department, officer, agency, regulatory body, or other authority of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, may move to suppress the evidence obtained or derived from such electronic surveillance on the grounds that—
(1) the information was unlawfully acquired; or
(2) the surveillance was not made in conformity with an order of authorization or approval.
Such a motion shall be made before the trial, hearing, or other proceeding unless there was no opportunity to make such a motion or the person was not aware of the grounds of the motion.
(f) In camera and ex parte review by district court
Whenever a court or other authority is notified pursuant to subsection (c) or (d) of this section, or whenever a motion is made pursuant to subsection (e) of this section, or whenever any motion or request is made by an aggrieved person pursuant to any other statute or rule of the United States or any State before any court or other authority of the United States or any State to discover or obtain applications or orders or other materials relating to electronic surveillance or to discover, obtain, or suppress evidence or information obtained or derived from electronic surveillance under this chapter, the United States district court or, where the motion is made before another authority, the United States district court in the same district as the authority, shall, notwithstanding any other law, if the Attorney General files an affidavit under oath that disclosure or an adversary hearing would harm the national security of the United States, review in camera and ex parte the application, order, and such other materials relating to the surveillance as may be necessary to determine whether the surveillance of the aggrieved person was lawfully authorized and conducted. In making this determination, the court may disclose to the aggrieved person, under appropriate security procedures and protective orders, portions of the application, order, or other materials relating to the surveillance only where such disclosure is necessary to make an accurate determination of the legality of the surveillance.
(g) Suppression of evidence; denial of motion
If the United States district court pursuant to subsection (f) of this section determines that the surveillance was not lawfully authorized or conducted, it shall, in accordance with the requirements of law, suppress the evidence which was unlawfully obtained or derived from electronic surveillance of the aggrieved person or otherwise grant the motion of the aggrieved person. If the court determines that the surveillance was lawfully authorized and conducted, it shall deny the motion of the aggrieved person except to the extent that due process requires discovery or disclosure.
(h) Finality of orders
Orders granting motions or requests under subsection (g) of this section, decisions under this section that electronic surveillance was not lawfully authorized or conducted, and orders of the United States district court requiring review or granting disclosure of applications, orders, or other materials relating to a surveillance shall be final orders and binding upon all courts of the United States and the several States except a United States court of appeals and the Supreme Court.
(i) Destruction of unintentionally acquired information
In circumstances involving the unintentional acquisition by an electronic, mechanical, or other surveillance device of the contents of any radio communication, under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes, and if both the sender and all intended recipients are located within the United States, such contents shall be destroyed upon recognition, unless the Attorney General determines that the contents indicate a threat of death or serious bodily harm to any person.
(j) Notification of emergency employment of electronic surveillance; contents; postponement, suspension or elimination
If an emergency employment of electronic surveillance is authorized under section 1805 (e) [1] of this title and a subsequent order approving the surveillance is not obtained, the judge shall cause to be served on any United States person named in the application and on such other United States persons subject to electronic surveillance as the judge may determine in his discretion it is in the interest of justice to serve, notice of—
(1) the fact of the application;
(2) the period of the surveillance; and
(3) the fact that during the period information was or was not obtained.
On an ex parte showing of good cause to the judge the serving of the notice required by this subsection may be postponed or suspended for a period not to exceed ninety days. Thereafter, on a further ex parte showing of good cause, the court shall forego ordering the serving of the notice required under this subsection.
(k) Coordination with law enforcement on national security matters
(1) Federal officers who conduct electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information under this subchapter may consult with Federal law enforcement officers or law enforcement personnel of a State or political subdivision of a State (including the chief executive officer of that State or political subdivision who has the authority to appoint or direct the chief law enforcement officer of that State or political subdivision) to coordinate efforts to investigate or protect against—
(A) actual or potential attack or other grave hostile acts of a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power;
(B) sabotage or international terrorism by a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power; or
(C) clandestine intelligence activities by an intelligence service or network of a foreign power or by an agent of a foreign power.
(2) Coordination authorized under paragraph (1) shall not preclude the certification required by section 1804 (a)(7)(B) of this title or the entry of an order under section 1805 of this title.
Hope that answers your questions.
Cheers,
cfaller96 said...
ReplyDeletebart said: Then you fund NSA and impeach the President for misusing it.
That does nothing to prevent Executive abuse in the first place, bart. You're essentially setting up a system that dares Congress to impeach a President for abuse after the fact.
bart said: Elections have consequences. The job of running intelligence gathering is a plenary Presidential power. When you elect a person to be President, you are electing him or her to do this job.
But that assumes that the public is informed of the President's alleged "plenary" power to conduct warrantless surveillance on American citizens. We weren't, including you, thanks to the efforts of the President to conceal this activity.
The average voter doesn't usually know most of the members of the Supreme Court nevertheless what they have ruled over the years.
They take a look at the man or woman running for President and decide whether they trust them to do the job they want done by the President.
Almost all intelligence gathering is secret an not open to debate by the public. By necessity, you have to trust the President you elected to perform the job and the Congress you elected to keep an eye on the President without informing our enemies against whom we are gathering intelligence about these programs.
This is the essence of intelligence gathering in a representative democracy.
Maybe I should take a step back and make sure you care about Executive abuse of surveillance power. Bart, do you agree that it's important to stop abusive surveillance before it begins?
I care whether the President is acting within the Constitution. The courts have established a bright line rule which is easy to apply. The President may conduct intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the US without a warrant BUT must obtain a warrant under all other circumstances. I see no evidence whatsoever that Mr. Bush crossed that line.
Because of the necessarily clandestine nature of intelligence gathering, there are very few preemptive actions you can take to prevent illegal surveillance. You have to rely upon the integrity of the President ordering the surveillance, the persons carrying out the surveillance and the members of Congress' intelligence committees overseeing these activities. Otherwise, you have to rely upon the deterrence of being caught engaged in criminal activity.
From Bart at 1:58PM:
ReplyDelete"Once again, this Article I provision has always been limited to the uniformed services. UCMJ does not apply to the civilians in NSA simply because if falls under the DoD bureaucracy."
Nice try. You either missed or ignored the second point: to whit, there is *nothing* in the text of Article I.8.14 that 'limits' it or the authority of Congress to just 'the uniformed services'.
The text states:
[Congress shall have power]"To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;"
Please point out exactly where in those 14 words Congress can only regulate the 'uniformed military'.
Like it or not, whether civilian or uniform, *any* employee of the NSA is now subject to this provision and the authority granted Congress.
"What does FISA do if not choose permissible targets of electronic surveillance?"
Precisely the point, and no-one here has argued that amendments to it are beyond the bounds of acceptable recourse. The trouble here is the Administration's contention it and it alone can decide who to initiate this surveillance against without either oversight nor parameters from Congress. The possibility (nay, inevitability) of abuse is simply too great to leave any trust in those who have proven decidedly untrustworthy.
anonymous:
ReplyDelete[Arne]: But if that were true, it wouldn't need to be retroactive to save FISA. FISA (as amended, argunendo to make it now constitutional), is now constitutional, and survives. Retroactivity does nothing to help that "purpose".
It does, however, remove any possibility that Democrats will attempt, once again, to criminalize their policy differences with the administration. The public is sick of this tactic, and will support retroactivity on that basis alone.
Leaving aside the truth of the assertion that Dems want "to criminalize their policy differences" (as opposed to just pointing out that the maladministation is not only incompetent but criminal), if FISA did not prohibit (that is, you know, make illegal and subject to criminal sanctions) the behaviour of the maladministration, then what's to worry about? More "talking points" for the Republicans when the courts find the maladministration's prior acts to be perfectly legal. OTOH, if this new law does amend FISA so as to make the maladministration's warrantless spying now legal, but it was illegal, then why shouldn't we prosecute those people who wilfully broke the law?
In the latter case, you'll have to find some other excuse, or rationale, for the inclusion of the "amnesty" clause. Just be clear about what it is that you're trying to accomplish.
Cheers,
You quote him as saying "promise" amnesty
ReplyDeleteFrom your quotes, he did not say
I did not "propose" amnesty.
Jargon I know, plaese stay on
The Enabler!
HWSNBN needs a "daddy figure":
ReplyDeleteBy necessity, you have to trust the President you elected to perform the job ...
Why?
Just one word: "Nixon". Well, maybe another: "Katrina". On third thought, how about "Iraq"?
Cheers,
You're being too generous, Arne. I don't think either Bush nor Bart have actually *thought* about any of this.
ReplyDeleteJaO said...
ReplyDeletebart: At no point in his book or on this blog since I have been here has Glenn offered an Article I provision which empowers Congress to choose the targets of intelligence gathering or a single case which interprets Article I in that way.
bart dishonestly misstates what FISA does. Neither Congress nor the courts "choose" the targets of intelligence gathering; the executive branch does. All FISA does is promulgate general standards of probable cause, and all the FISA court does is see that those standards are applied.
OK, let's test that claim.
Let's say that Justice comes to FISA seeking permission in the form of a warrant to have the NSA monitor international calls to and from the United States where one end is a telephone number captured from al Qaeda.
The only evidence that the actual parties to such calls are al Qaeda or otherwise fall under the definitions given by FISA are that the number was possessed by someone belonging to al Qaeda.
When asked if the NSA knows who actually will be on the telephone calls, the NSA will have to admit that they do not and will need to monitor the telephone calls for several months to determine if they are actually al Qaeda.
The FISA court judge will almost certainly deny this warrant because, while mere possession of a telephone number by al Qaeda raises a reasonable suspicion the user might be al Qaeda, there is no probable cause to believe that the user will be al Qaeda as opposed to a falafel maker or the original possessor's mother.
(For the folks unfamiliar with the structure the courts have set up under search and seizure law, when the evidence provides a "reasonable suspicion" that a crime has occurred, law enforcement may stop and question an individual to gather more evidence, but the law enforcement officer may not arrest or search the person (except under other exceptions not applicable here) until he or she has enough evidence for "probable cause" (more likely than not) that a crime has occurred. Reasonable suspicion is a much lower standard that the probable cause required to get a warrant).
Who then has decided whether the targets of the NSA Program are permissible - Congress through the FISA court or the President?
Thus, we get back to the ultimate power question - what provision of Article I permits Congress to choose targets of intelligence gathering?
To Arne -
ReplyDeleteI noticed something. Given Al Qaeda isn't a 'foreign power' as such, at least not in the traditional sense of being a nation-state or government entity/agency, can FISA even be legally applied to suspected agents of an Al Qaeda cell given section a4A as you outline them?
Any comment?
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 1:58PM: "Once again, this Article I provision has always been limited to the uniformed services. UCMJ does not apply to the civilians in NSA simply because if falls under the DoD bureaucracy."
Nice try. You either missed or ignored the second point: to whit, there is *nothing* in the text of Article I.8.14 that 'limits' it or the authority of Congress to just 'the uniformed services'.
The text states:
[Congress shall have power]"To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;"
Please point out exactly where in those 14 words Congress can only regulate the 'uniformed military'.
By its own terns, this provision is limited to the Army and the Navy, which were the only uniformed services of the time. I am reading this provision expansively as do the courts to cover all the uniformed services created since the writing of the Constitution. NO COURT has ever held that this provision applies to civilians outside of the uniformed services.
JaO,
ReplyDelete"FISA does not apply in a purely foreign situation. But it does apply when the target or the intercept are in this country, which the administration says is true."
Actually, what the administration says is FISA does not apply if "one party is outside the US", not "it [FISA] does apply when the target or the intercept are in this country".
For example:
If a known terrorist outside our border is intercepted by the NSA calling anyone within the US, that US person becomes fair game as a target of foreign intelligence gathering [for national security purposes], regardless of how one interprets FISA.
From Bart at 2:37PM:
ReplyDelete"NO COURT has ever held that this provision applies to civilians outside of the uniformed services."
You forgot to add "as yet" to this sentence; contrary to Hal Lindsey and company, we aren't residing in the End Times and the courts may yet rule in this direction.
You're also forgetting (or ignoring) the fact the cilians we're talking about are *inside* the uniformed services theselves; just one of those fussy little developments (like universal sufferage and the 14th Amendment) the Founders didn't envision nor could necessarily anticipate. The provision, however, remains in place and open to further interpretation.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteMost of us, about 70% of the population, pray daily that our military will be used against people like you and Bart...
This is a stupid remark.
To just blurt out what everyone else is thinking, but chooses to self-edit, is often considered tactless, but not necessarily false, or stupid.
Do you, yourself, pray to God?
Yes, but I call him the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
And if you do, do you really pray to God that our military "will be used against people like you and Bart..."?
Absolutely, and 30% of the population of my own country that are too stupid to know they are very un-American.
And if you actually do pray to God that this happens, do you think 150 million other Americans do the same every day?
Asked and answered. Yes and yes, but they may pray to a Flying Macaroni Monster for all I know or care. And the current U.S. population is 300,000,00 so 70% is 210,000,000.
No, I didn't think so.
You don't think too good.
if this new law does amend FISA so as to make the maladministration's warrantless spying now legal, but it was illegal, then why shouldn't we prosecute those people who wilfully broke the law?
ReplyDeleteThe notion that the president "broke the law" regarding the NSA surveillance program, and as a result should be prosecuted for it, resonates only within the tin-hat brigade of the hate-Bush fringe.
There is not now, nor will there ever be a majority consensus to prosecute the president or his administration for this policy, and those who advocate this (you included) are marginalizing themselves into complete political irrelevance.
Anonymous 2:47 PM,
ReplyDelete"To just blurt out what everyone else is thinking, but chooses to self-edit, is often considered tactless, but not necessarily false, or stupid."
Stupid is as stupid does...
Anonymous 2:49 PM,
"There is not now, nor will there ever be a majority consensus to prosecute the president or his administration for this policy"
Kind of like the recent Iraq vote, with many Democrats rejecting Senator Kerry's plan for retreat, and instead voting in favor of President Bush:
Bloomberg.com
"The non-binding resolution contains a statement of support for U.S. troops, says the war in Iraq is vital to the global struggle against terrorism and condemns any attempt to set a timetable for withdrawal. It passed 256-153, with 214 Republicans voting for it and 3 against. It was opposed by 149 Democrats and one independent; 42 supported it."
anonymous:
ReplyDelete[Arne]: f this new law does amend FISA so as to make the maladministration's warrantless spying now legal, but it was illegal, then why shouldn't we prosecute those people who wilfully broke the law?
The notion that the president "broke the law" regarding the NSA surveillance program, and as a result should be prosecuted for it, resonates only within the tin-hat brigade of the hate-Bush fringe.
Nice attempt to change the subject (and unsupported assertion too). As I said, IF they weren't breaking the law, no amnesty provision is needed. If they did, then shouldn't they be prosecuted? I'd liek your opinion here, and your reasons, not some unsupported "argumnetun ad numerum" logical fallacy.
Cheers,
"The Fly":
ReplyDeleteActually, what the administration says is FISA does not apply if "one party is outside the US", not "it [FISA] does apply when the target or the intercept are in this country".
For example:
If a known terrorist outside our border is intercepted by the NSA calling anyone within the US, that US person becomes fair game as a target of foreign intelligence gathering [for national security purposes], regardless of how one interprets FISA.
Let's forget about what the maladministration says (they're a pack'o'liars an eedjits anyway). Why not talk about what the las does say? What is says is that FISA applies and a FISA order must be sought if the "target" is a "U.S. person" in the United States (and a couple other provisions having to do with performing the wiretaps domestically). Your example is true; FISA does not apply. But the reason it does not apply is that the "target" is neither a "U.S. person" nor in the United States. The calls to/from "associates" within the United States who are "U.S. persons" are permissible, and these people's conversations may be recorded, despite the FISA law; it doesn't apply. This is identical to the situation where your own domestic calls may be recorded even with no Title III warrant for you personally, if you happen to call a "target" of a Title III wiretap.
So sotp with the obfuscation here and the counterfactual (or irrelevant) examples.
Cheers,
yankeependragon:
ReplyDeleteI noticed something. Given Al Qaeda isn't a 'foreign power' as such, at least not in the traditional sense of being a nation-state or government entity/agency, can FISA even be legally applied to suspected agents of an Al Qaeda cell given section a4A as you outline them?
It's perhaps arguable, but I'd say chances are pretty good they'd be read as a foreign power or its equivalent on practical grounds. I'd note that such as Specter's amendment (and possibly the PATRIOT Act mods to FISA, but I don't remember) have made some tweaks to the definitions of such, partly in response to the rise of terrorism as a threat (I'd note also that the Geneva Conventions, e.g., in the 1977 amendments, seem to have made some adjustments for the changing nature of conflicts, such as the rise of state-less actors and insurgencies, in the modern world).
Yes, we should try to keep the language up-to-date with developments in the real world. But I think that courts would also allow some leeway, some elasticity, so tha the intent of the law could be applied to the situation at hand.
I don't know if (or at what point) an individual terrorist or a small terrorist group gets to the point where they deserve identical treatment to a foreign enemy state, rather tha dealing with them on a criminal basis only. YMMV on this one. Guess it depends on how big a threat one thinks they pose (i.e., a true security threat versus just a threat to law and public safety), and to what extent you want to give them any recognition as a sovereign actor, which carries with it some other consequences (practical, political, and legal) as well.
Cheers,
HWSNBN dissembles:
ReplyDeleteLet's say that Justice comes to FISA seeking permission in the form of a warrant to have the NSA monitor international calls to and from the United States where one end is a telephone number captured from al Qaeda.
The only evidence that the actual parties to such calls are al Qaeda or otherwise fall under the definitions given by FISA are that the number was possessed by someone belonging to al Qaeda.
When asked if the NSA knows who actually will be on the telephone calls, the NSA will have to admit that they do not and will need to monitor the telephone calls for several months to determine if they are actually al Qaeda.
HWSNBN simply ignores several provisions of the FISA law, as well as several facts:
First, he assumes (contrary to fact) that the only means of determining if the number belongs to al Qaeda operatives in the United States is to actually assume the conclusion and start wiretapping. But FISA covers this:
40 USC 1804(a)(7):
(C) that such information cannot reasonably be obtained by normal investigative techniques;
In what ought to be blindingly obvious to a self-proclaimed "criminal prosecutor" (but which makes this boastful claim rather dubious, as it should), law enforcement and other guvernment agencies have numerous other means to further identify the owner of a telephne number and what type of person that may be. In the meanwhile, they have 72 hours "free bite of the apple" if they think they need it, in any case.
In addition, FISA also provides a bit of leeway even in the case where the owner cannot be identified (i.e., a public phone booth):
50 USC 1804(a):
(3) the identity, if known, or a description of the target of the electronic surveillance;
All that's needed is enough information to think that there's a legitimate subject for surveillance. If they don't have the goods yet, then it's up to them to go out and get enough for a warrant (and this has never been much of a difficulty).
If a look in the phone book shows that it's a taxi service (or even a massage parlor), then they will have to do more to show that such calls have to do with al Qaeda rather than the phone's legitimate business use.
Cheers,
JaO, Arne,
ReplyDelete"Your example is true; FISA does not apply. But the reason it does not apply is that the "target" is neither a "U.S. person" nor in the United States. The calls to/from "associates" within the United States who are "U.S. persons" are permissible, and these people's conversations may be recorded, despite the FISA law; it doesn't apply."
Thanks, my point exactly.
Bonus round,
"It's perhaps arguable, but I'd say chances are pretty good they'd [ALQ] be read as a foreign power or its equivalent on practical grounds."
Now we're talking...
As I said, IF they weren't breaking the law, no amnesty provision is needed. If they did, then shouldn't they be prosecuted?
ReplyDeleteWe've already covered this ground.
The president's supporters (myself included) consider his NSA surveillance program lawful and well within his perogative as commander-in-chief. I suspect that the vast majority of senators and congressman concur. In a perfect world, therefore, there would be no need for provisions to absolve the president retroactively of any legal liabilities (for the current NSA program) when the (obsolete) FISA statute is revised.
However, we don't live in a perfect world. As such, in order to de-fang the president's most rabid political enemies, i.e., those like yourself who'd like nothing more to see him destroyed both politically and personally, it will be prudent and sensible to include "retroactivity" in the revised statute.
Maybe we should grant amnesty to this nice little program too: http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000924.php
ReplyDeleteThe TIA program, which Congress struck down, is "designed to somehow find terrorists from a sky-high pile of credit card bills, car rental receipts and travel records."
Bart, you didn't answer my question the first time, so I'll ask it again: do you agree it's important to stop abusive surveillance before it begins?
ReplyDelete"Yes, cfaller96, I agree it's important to stop abusive surveillance before it begins."
That's all you have to say, one simple sentence. It's a simple yes or no question, yet you chose to avoid answering. Why? Why would you dodge such a simple question?
I think I know why- you really don't care that much about abusive surveillance. In your mind, they're all dirty criminals anyway, so what's the harm in wiretapping them? Warrants, schmarrants, they're criminals, so f--k 'em!
Am I wrong? Then stand up and say "I agree it's important to stop abusive surveillance before it begins", and I'll apologize for putting words in your mouth.
If you're not proud of your own beliefs, bart, then you really have no place debating anything. How can your views be trusted if you yourself don't trust them?
....do you agree it's important to stop abusive surveillance before it begins?
ReplyDeleteWhat is "abusive surveillance"?
bart said:
ReplyDelete[The American people] take a look at the man or woman running for President and decide whether they trust them to do the job they want done by the President...I see no evidence whatsoever that Mr. Bush crossed that line.
That's because you haven't seen any evidence, period. You have no knowledge of the scope of the program, so back off that last assertion. And whatever happened to "trust, but verify" as a general principle?
Bart, are you suggesting that the American people would have learned of a secret program that conducts surveillance on American citizens without showing probable cause, and NOT CARED? Are you suggesting the American people should want the President to "do the job" of warrantless surveillance on American citizens?
You can't simply shrug and say the American people should have assumed that this type of surveillance was going on, and thus their vote was really a vote of trust in President Bush to wiretap them in a good way. This activity didn't go on during the Carter, Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton presidencies, and there is this thing called a 'reasonable expectation of privacy'. How can the American public be asked to make the assumption that President Bush would violate their privacy without showing probable cause? Are you saying that we should always assume the President has the ability to break the law and violate our privacy, and we should take that into account when we vote? Wow.
anonymous said:
ReplyDeleteWhat is "abusive surveillance"?
Ultimately that's up to you to decide. You're free to qualify a response to my question with your own definition of "abusive surveillance".
My definition is surveillance conducted for purely political purposes, and not for criminal investigation, counterintelligence, or counterterrorism purposes.
Wiretapping anti-war Quakers, for instance. Peace-loving Quakers are not a threat to national security, are not agents of a foreign power, and are not committing any crimes by protesting a war. And yet they were monitored by Nixon and (most likely) are monitored by Bush. That's what I call surveillance of political opponents, and in my opinion that's abusive.
Without some sort of check on this power, surveillance abuse inevitably occurs. It's creepy, it's scary, it's un-American, and it's wrong. Unless you're Bart.