Monday, June 19, 2006

Why right-wing extremists merit attention

Last Wednesday, Instapundit wrote a fact-free post claiming that the Virginia Senate primary results, in which Jim Webb defeated Harris Miller, constituted yet another defeat for the "Howard Dean-Kos fringe." In response, I wrote a post documenting how factually false Instapundit's claim was (since Markos himself, along with "fringe" national politicians such as John Kerry, expressly supported Webb's candidacy). As I made clear in the post, it was not Instapundit's false statement per se that was significant. Instead, it is the continued smearing of perfectly mainstream Democrats (such as Howard Dean, or Kos) as being "fringe" radicals -- and interpreting all political events through that distortive lens -- that is so dishonest, a smear that is repeated endlessly by the national media. In an "Update" to his post, Instapundit was forced to retract his completely baseless claims about the primary results.

Yesterday (five days later), Instapundit responded to my post with all sorts of inaccurate claims and false accusations, and I posted my reply to it as an Update (Update V) to my original post. This morning, Markos also replied to Instapundit's response to me. As demonstrated by Markos' post (entitled "Instapundit is a Liar"), Instapundit's response is filled with demonstrably false assertions and strawmen (which forced Instapundit this morning to retract his statements yet again, apologize for them, and excuse himself by claiming that his misleading post in response to me was just "badly written"). Markos' post and my reply to Instapundit is comprehensive, so I won't rehash here all of the ways in which Instapundit engaged in his standard dishonest tactics when replying.

Suffice to say, Instapundit was forced to retract his original post on Wednesday only because my post highlighting his falsehoods received substantial attention (from Atrios and Markos, among others), and he was forced to retract still more false statements from his post yesterday for the same reason. But on an almost daily basis, literally, Instapundit engages in these same deceitful tactics. They are his staple. And they usually sit uncorrected.

Other than the fact that he was forced to retract these statements due to the substantial attention they received, there was nothing at all unusual about the dishonesty exposed in Instapundit's last two posts on this topic. Demonizing mainstream Democrats as "fringe" (even though it is his pro-war views which have been repudiated by most Americans), and linking to and promoting extremist viewpoints while keeping a safe enough distance to deny that he is doing so, is Instapundit's bread and butter. And those tactics are equally common among all sorts of right-wing media and even the national media itself.

But almost every time that I write about Instapundit, Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter or others like them, I receive e-mail telling me that I should just ignore them, that they are too petty to bother with. I see from the comment sections of other bloggers who write about these extremists the same criticism -- that it is a mistake to "give attention" to these people because they are irrelevant and should just be ignored.

For multiple reasons, I could not disagree more with that view. People like Instapundit and Michelle Malkin have a daily readership which exceeds that of most American daily newspapers. Millions of people buy and read Ann Coulter's books and the national media repeatedly give her a platform. They represent the views of millions of Bush followers. To believe that they will just quietly fade away if they are ignored is pure wishful thinking, dangerous fantasy. The same thing was said two decades ago about Rush Limbaugh and, all that time, he has been pumping his hate-mongering into the heads of 20 million listeners on a daily basis.

Ignoring extremists is the worst possible thing one could do, and it is the biggest favor that could be done for them. The dishonest claims and manipulative tactics in which the likes of Instapundit and Michelle Malkin traffic are heard by enormous numbers of individuals and all sorts of influential people. To ignore them and to fail to respond to what they say -- to fail to expose their dishonesty and radicalism -- is to allow them to speak without challenge. The only result that will produce is to enhance their credibility and allow them to conceal their deceit. What possible rationale exists for that course of action?

More importantly, it is incomparably beneficial to expose the extremist, dishonest underbelly of the pro-Bush movement. They have made great political strides by focusing as much as possible on easily disliked political figures on the Left who are susceptible to being depicted (rightly or wrongly) as extremists (Ward Churchill, Harry Belafonte, Michael Moore, etc.) and then turning them into illustrative symbols of Democrats generally.

But while they do this, they also form highly beneficial alliances with the most extreme and radical elements in the political spectrum. Ann Coulter attends their most important political events and urges the murder of Supreme Court Justices and uses hateful epithets, prompting standing ovations. Dick Cheney's favorite place to express his political ideas is the radio shows of right-wing radio talk show hosts who spew eliminationist and extremists rhetoric on a daily basis. They are represented in the blogosphere by individuals who favor the war internment of Japanese-Americans, routinely call mainstream Democrats traitors, and issue threatening proclamations against the media for causing us to lose the war in Iraq. And they don't take any significant domestic policy steps without first clearing what they want to do with the likes of Jim Dobson and, before that, Pat Robertson.

But because many people believe that individuals such as Malkin, Coulter, Reynolds, and Limbaugh are so vile that they ought to be "ignored," Bush followers never have to pay a price for these alliances. They are allowed to milk the benefits of their confederations with extremists while deceitfully presenting a moderate, mainstream face to the country. They should not be allowed to get away with that. The more these extremists are focused on, the more attention they receive, the better it is. It is a good thing for Americans to know that the real face of Bush followers is Michelle Malkin, John Hinderaker, Ann Coulter and Jim Dobson, and to see clearly what that face really looks like.

Moreover, the blogosphere provides a unique opportunity to expose the true deceit and the real impulses which underlie most Bush followers' allegiance to that movement. Because people like Instapundit and Malkin post every day, and those posts remain there forever for anyone to read, a record is compiled of what they think and how they "reason." When the dishonesty of Instapundit's tactics is exposed, it matters not because it matters whether Instapundit himself is dishonest, but because the dishonest tactics he employs are employed widely and then become echoed by the national media. The benefits of exposing that dishonesty ought to be self-evident. When Instapundit is exposed for his deceitful use of the "fringe" smear, it weakens the credibility of that smear generally. That is why it is worth doing.

It would be nice and all if we had a political culture where extremists and those who traffic in character smears in lieu of substantive political arguments could simply be ignored, so that they would disappear. But the reality is the opposite. Our political dialogue, especially over the last five years, has been shaped primarily by those who specialize in demonizing political opponents as fringe lunatics, depicting disagreement as treason, and deliberately papering over complexities in order to spew misleading political slogans designed to propagandize rather than persuade. The lesson of the Swift Boat debacle, more than anything else, was that to ignore those individuals and those tactics is the best thing one can do . . . for them. It is surprising how many people seem not to have learned that lesson.

141 comments:

  1. Anonymous12:37 PM

    Sadly, I have to agree with Glenn on this one.

    Yes, Malkin, Coulter, Limbaugh, Reynolds, and the rest are themselves poster children for "extremism" in ways no-one on the left mimic nor equal. And yes, simply ignoring them or letting their bile go unchallenged is not a viable option.

    The question becomes what to do about it. I suggested yesterday finding some way of routinely shamming media outlets that give them voice and perhaps simply mocking them at each turn (suggesting for example you'll only buy their books once they're recycled as toilet paper). That was simply off the top of my head.

    You can't actually engage these characters in direct argument; they aren't offering one in the first place, nor are they likely to actually engage in honest debate in the first place.

    I also suggested our ultimate goal should be to somehow marginalize or negate them, making them as toxic as possible that 'polite' society won't touch them any longer (I used the example of the Poll Test in the south). Granted, Coulter is already doing this to herself, but I'd also like to be able to breath clean air before I die.

    The blogsphere, at least for the moment, is the best forum we have to do this. Anyone think of a better strategy, I'd like to hear it.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Anonymous12:37 PM

    Glen -- excellent post and I completely agree that the dishonesty and extremism of the right and the right's defenders should be exposed, ridiculed and denounced, over and over again. Well done.

    Hope to see you at your book-signing in Cambridge Tuesday.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Anonymous12:45 PM

    People like Instapundit and Michelle Malkin have a daily readership which exceeds that of most American daily newspapers.

    Yes! Yes! A thousand times yes! I'm glad you're saying this, Glenn.

    As you may (or may not) know, I recently took over at Malkin(s)Watch, which is a C/D-List blog, in that we get 300-400 hits on a good day. I'm not complaining even a little bit. The site has one of the most well-informed readerships out there, which makes my efforts that much more enriching and challenging.

    The thing, though, is that MichelleMalkin.com has a daily traffic that comes in around three to four orders of magnitude larger than mine. Taking into account that MW has been around in one form or another since December 2004, it is obvious that her readers are not serious about checking MM's claims. (And now with the apparent success of HotAir.com, there is even more "content" to follow.)

    Over a year ago, it was revealed by the former writer for MW that Michelle's husband writes and researches a substantial portion of her blog without the correct attribution. Her readers don't care about this deception either. [She has made a couple typically misleading statements toward this topic, but her responses were merely tacit admissions wrapped in defensive, deflective rhetoric.]

    I would cherish any support from the high traffic bloggers who are bothered by Michelle's extremism. It may seem like an empty gesture, but blogrolling MW would help immensely. Also, blogrolling and subscribing to the RSS feeds of other "watch" sites (e.g. Hitchens Watch, LGF Watch) would be an incredible boon, as well.

    Keep up the great work. Thanks!

    ReplyDelete
  4. Anonymous12:54 PM

    You don't ignore them. You firmly tie them around the GoOPers necks, then shout loudly "over here!"

    Would you ignore the crab that was steadily gnawing off the toes on your feet?

    Didn't think so.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Anonymous1:01 PM

    To be honest if he was on vacation and Glenn was off book signing doesn't this all seem like miscommunication?

    Maybe if Instahack didn't have a long history of such. There was a day when he would have retracted nothing. Now he is being held to a closer scruntiny and he knows it.

    He is not being gracious, he is just reacting to the new reality.

    You think he deserves high praise for simply doing the right thing?

    Pretty low goalposts

    ReplyDelete
  6. But when you criticise someone, or correct them and they retract and graciously apologise that's acting like a gentleman and you don't piss on them for doing it

    Instapundit merely acknolwedged that he was unaware that Kos endorsed Webb. That had nothing to do with my criticism, as I've explained several times now. As I also made clear, I am not interested in continuing to debate the details of what Instapundit did here. I linked to my post, Kos' post and Instapundit's two posts. Those discussions are comprehensive. Everyone has different ethical standards, so everyone can make up their own minds based on what their standards are. I'm confident that most people with reasonably high ethical standards will see the deficiencies in his behavior, forced and incomplete retractions notwithstanding.

    The point of this post is not to rehash Instapundit's behavior in this particular instance, but instead, is to trigger a discussion of why (in my view) it is beneficial to pay attention to the tactics of people like Instapundit rather than ignoring them.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Here's Dave Neiwert's explanation of why he focuses on Malkin so much. Here's the short version:

    Malkin is worth tackling for two good reasons: A) she is very influential, particularly in the blogosphere; and B) her work is harmful disinformation that needs to be examined and eviscerated.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Anonymous1:16 PM

    Glenn,

    I feel enormous gratitude for your untiring efforts to counter these 'agents of evil'. Maybe you could organize a team of bloggers to amplify your efforts.

    Altan

    ReplyDelete
  9. Anonymous1:18 PM

    There really is no difference between this and this. The former is akin to an act of vandalism or looting a bank with a gun, the latter accomplishes it with a pen. The latter does far more damage and rarely gets punished.

    ReplyDelete
  10. I'm just glad that you read instapundit so I don't have to.

    Its sort of like fighting the terrorist over there so we don't have to fight them here only different.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Anonymous1:26 PM

    Like all vermin, they will run for cover when the light is turned on them. And they should be spotlighted everytime they indulge in such dishonesty, every time they associate with the most loathsome characters and groups, and every time they spew their hateful and murderous ralllying cries.

    Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and is probably the only way to rid our body politic of these mental and moral microbes.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Anonymous1:28 PM

    As an anonymous poster who has in the past said here that it was a waste of time to give such attention to these people, I've been reconsidering that position for the last few months.

    There seems to be a relatively wide middle-zone in between ignored-and-powerless on one side, and thoroughly scrutinized on the other, where a public person inhabiting the middle zone has enough fame to make potshots that do small but real damage, while at the same time they remain sufficiently under the radar that their ridiculous claims get only passing analysis by those who have enough power to destroy them (eg, the msm).

    It's mostly thinking about Ann Coulter--whom I'd like nothing more in the world than to ignore--and how amazingly nazi she seems that has caused me to reconsider (like many, I've recently been reading about the nazi party in the 20s and early 30s). The other thing I've realized is just how amazingly wide this middle zone seems to have become, particularly at the top: if GWB's stupid promises in 2000 can go so unscrutinized, then there's a lot of room for Coulter et. al. to grow in power before hitting the latter zone. And based on what I've seen of the msm recently, maybe the closely-scrutinized zone doesn't exist at all anymore (for those on the right), in which case a) it's up to us, and b) the earlier we stop them, the better, before their unholy powers grow even stronger.

    But though I know that even in the justest of societies some wars will have to be fought and someone will have to fight them, in these sorts of skirmishes, better you than I. Even the honorable task of shooting back at nazis has got to become soul-eating after a while. I myself don't think I could take it.

    ReplyDelete
  13. For what its worth, here is my explanation of why I write about extremists.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Maybe it is time to stop them. For their own good, too. Aren't Republicans the ones who believe "consequences" are instructive and necessary for raising responsible children? (Applying “the board of education to the seat of learning,” right?) Doesn't it seem like a firm application of their own disciplinary theories would only be appropriate and in keeping with their values?

    Without suffering "consequences" they'll just keep on misbehaving and never grow into mature, responsible adults. Isn't that how it works?

    ReplyDelete
  15. A simple perspective to view this is much like getting "ahead" of a story and thus making the story about the writer not the topic; if one gets "behind" the post and letting Instapundit et al, lead readers by the ear around the block, either way the facts of the story get left obscurred in the dust. If indeed "IT'S ABOUT THE FACTS STUPID", it is of primary importance to unemotionally draw the facts to the surface, immediately and every time. But, the personal attacks, the smears should never grease the wheels of the promotion of smear stories otherwise we're back to digging in the sands of Aruba with Rita, sealing our houses with duct tape and hitting the shopping mall.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Anonymous2:08 PM

    On the contrary if you conceeded that on this ocassion at the least, Instapundit behaved well, and better than you had presented him, then won't he be more likely to respond well in the future?

    Because he is a hack with an agenda.

    Once.....again...slowly....so ..you...can...understand.

    Glenn is responding to the new reality. His credibility is on the linhe now, after having picked the losing team and being its number one monkey-boy.

    Back when the right thought it could just make shit up, and ignore the real blog-o-sphere, he would never have retracted anything.

    There is no reason to reward his good behaviour as it is not a desire for civility and truthfullness that is his motivation.

    His motivation is to retain what shred of credibility he has left. All that is necessary is to punish his bad behaviour.

    Will you please stop whining now.

    You sound like a 9 year old girl who didnt get the b-day present she wanted....sheesh

    ReplyDelete
  17. Anonymous2:09 PM

    when I said Glenn..I meant Insta-hack

    ReplyDelete
  18. Anonymous2:11 PM

    "I would like to see you admit that you were wrong in this case to predict Instapundit wouldn't retract his claim about Kos."

    Yeah, I'd like to see that too. Otherwise, it seems to me that Mr. Greenwald is doing exactly what he accuses Instapundit of doing.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Anonymous2:18 PM

    "...after having picked the losing team..."
    "Back when ... he would never have retracted anything."

    Speaking of "facts" are the above quotes examples of the "facts" you use to arrive at your conclusions?

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anonymous2:18 PM

    David Byron and notherbob2: Glenn did not predict that Instapundit would not correct his error. To quote directly from his post:


    I wonder whether Instapundit (pundit@instapundit.com) will retract his false claim that the Virginia result represents a repudiation of the "the Howard Dean-Kos-fringe" given that this "fringe" supported the winning candidate.

    David Byron: You are wholly mistaken wrt Glenn's arguments about Instapundit, and willfully missing his repeatedly stated point.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Anonymous2:25 PM

    My issue isn't that we should or shouldn't call out the extremist mouthpieces, but with how it's done. I'm sick of having debates on the terms of the right fringe. I'm tired of trying to defend Democrats as being “conservative enough” against shrill accusations from the right fringe. There are no fringe leftists remaining in this country. Do you see anyone calling for communism? Meanwhile the most horrid of Republicans is called mainstream. Engaging these vultures on their terms just allows the political center point to be pushed farther to the right. And yes, a vast majority of the audience is either a) that ignorant or b) that desperate for an enemy or simple minded idea to grasp onto. The right-wing extremist talking heads provide this simplicity. The mainstream media is merely following them.

    I agree with Snarkyshark that we should tie these shrill liars firmly around the necks of the GOP and whack away. Why aren't we banging away at John McCain? The supposed "Maverick Independent" of the Republican Party is anything but. In truth he has a horrible voting record - especially in regards to civil liberties. He has been among the worst of the Bush enablers. And he is bad for America. What about Tom Delay? Why aren't we flooding the airwaves with messages of shame for any person who shows supports this guy? For crying out loud, even with pundits admitting he is probably criminal, they still espouse admiration for him putting the Republican Party in power. What we need to do is point out that he put them in power to the detriment of the country by putting party above country. That is un-American and can't be tolerated.

    So, you see Glenn, it's not that I don't want to go after the extremists; it's that I don't think we should be going after them on their terms. Let's make them defend their people and actions. Stop spending all our effort defending liberalism – which has done nothing but succeed in the past - and make conservatism defend itself. Make this Republican government justify it’s very existence.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Anonymous2:40 PM

    For heaven's sake stop bickering about whether Instapundit was "gracious" and move on. Glenn is right that the deceptions and malice of the right-wing machine must be confronted. Coulter and Malkin, especially, always remind me of Ellsworth Toohey in Rand's The Fountainhead: He wrote his slimy columns to form public opinion and gain power. His work--like his real-world imitators' stuff--would make a reasonable person's head explode.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Anonymous2:47 PM

    "...after having picked the losing team..."
    "Back when ... he would never have retracted anything."

    The boy has a long track record. These are my observations, and I never claimed them as facts, although in my reality they are true. People in the Corperate media dont refrence me to support an incorrect frame, but they do Instahack. So his burden is higher than mine. When you can supply some facts that repute my observations, then I will graciously or ungraciously retract these statemnts.

    As to the truthiness of my observations.....I'll let the peanut gallery decide.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Anonymous2:48 PM

    David Byron mistakenly cites as a gotcha this from Glenn in comments:
    ...I know people will e-mail Instapundit and point out his error, and he will say nothing, only compounding his gross dishonesty.


    In fact, Instapundit retracted not because of emails, the public does not see, but for the reason Glenn cited today about public attention to his "error":


    Suffice to say, Instapundit was forced to retract his original post on Wednesday only because my post highlighting his falsehoods received substantial attention (from Atrios and Markos, among others),

    ReplyDelete
  25. Glenn:

    I won't ever say that you should ignore people like Limbaugh, Coulter, etc.. (I can't speak as knowledgeably about Malkin.)

    But you should keep something in mind. Limbaugh, especially, does not take himself seriously. If you take him too seriously, you risk missing that point.

    (I assume Coulter doesn't take herself seriously, either, but Limbaugh is the one who I know has long insisted that he's nothing but an entertainer: an actor playing the role of a right-wing blowhard; Colbert, without the intentional self-mockery.)

    You mustn't assume that Limbaugh or Coulter will be swayed by the truth, because they won't be. You mustn't assume that they will change if you expose a clear logical contradiction in what they say.

    You have to recognize that they are saying what they say because they perceive there to be a market for it. They're doing it to make money... nothing else.

    This is the nastiest part about them. They can say any nasty thing they want, and can help build hatred to an inredible degree, and they don't see a problem, because they don't really mean anything by it.

    Ignore them? Not as such... but realize the battle you're fighting.

    I was the unpopular kid in school, okay? The fact that my brains were not made of phlegm would not stop children from calling me "booger brain", because it was fun (and, with Limbaugh, and Coulter, profitable) to call me nasty names.

    That's the battle you're fighting against that form of extremist. That's what you need to understand.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Anonymous2:54 PM

    "For heaven's sake stop bickering about whether Instapundit was "gracious"..."

    Mis-characterizing the issue (and trivializing it) is what is ridiculous. Now both Mr. Greenwald and Hypatia have been nailed by Mr. Byron. Conclusively, I might add. Not a bad day's work Mr. Byron.

    ReplyDelete
  27. One thing that might help some folks to understand the difference between "lying (by intentionally telling an untruth" and "lying (by making up information that might or might not be true)" is to call the latter by its more common name: bullshitting.

    Instapundit is certainly guilty of bullshitting. He just made up something that he wanted his readers to believe, rather than searching for the truth.

    I agree: it's lying. It'd be lying even if it had been correct.

    Making a statement of fact when you don't know the facts is a dishonest attempt to alter a person's view of reality. That makes it a lie.

    But many people won't recognize it as a lie because it's so common these days, and you can't prove that it wasn't a mistake. So, calling it bullshitting might help your case.

    ReplyDelete
  28. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  29. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Anonymous3:10 PM

    Glenn,

    I agree with you. I think (and have continued to maintain) that these logical distortions, outright falsities, and misprepresentations by the far right have be made into bigger stories themselves, to start to focus on and show America what the far right (and maybe some of the right) does....

    Notice also how Reynolds calls the Kos crowd "finge." This kind of subtly manipulative mischaracterization also continues to cloud the issues, and it must be constantly addressed. (The media, to a lesser extent, tends to engage in it too, which is a big part of the problem). Daily Kos is a cross section of democrats. Mainly liberal/democrat whereas the current right is, with few exceptions, mainly conservative/ far right wing conservative.

    But what was also critical is that after erring, and writing a post apologizing for erring, Reynolds then took a shot at you that was completely erroneous and blatantly misleading (except to his readers). In doing so he erred/mislead even more egregiously, to once again, except when it is conventinent, try and divert away from the facts and honest discussion therein.

    I think these types of persistant patterns need to be turned into a bigger story, and outside of the Daily Kos and sites such as this, as well. It is this kind of distortion that has helped (among other mistakes by democrats, and poor coverage by the media) feed the radical political lurching to the right of America in the past few years.

    In addition to laying out how the Bush adminstration rhetoric has been opposite of its approach to basic American principles, this piece also notes the following:

    .....it's a failure to recognize exactly what the far right wing is doing in its communications with a majority of Americans, a failure to recognize the fundamental need to counteract this [which starts first with repeatedly showing it], a failure to counteract it and turn it around to effectively and consistently illustrate to a MAJORITY of Americans how rhetoric is being used to manipulate the facts and the issues, a failure to adequately communicate the issues, a failure to show rather than tell, a failure to recognize the fundamental need to do all of these things...

    ALL examples matter, particularly ones by popular web sites that get hordes of readers, and are often referred to as speaking for the right.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Anonymous3:14 PM

    Not a bad day's work Mr. Byron.

    Yeah baby, you really earned that paycheck from the Rendon group.

    Ya'll gonna do fellatio on each-other on the coffe break? The mailroom scamps wan't to know.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Anonymous3:22 PM

    Scott Lemieux said...
    My favorite part of the post was when he cites John "You stupid shit" Hinderaker as his authority on writing literate, civil emails...


    That was worth the price of having to read Instaputz and PowerTools.

    They (the right-wing harpies) are after Keith Olbermann now.

    You'd think he had blown up a federal building or something.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Anonymous3:27 PM

    Speaking of harpies... The Harpies were fierce, filthy, winged monsters who had characteristics of a bird and a woman.

    That does sound like Coulter, who as it happens does have infrequent ablutial urges. She wears the same black leather mini-skirt everywhere she goes. There is something wrong with a woman who doesn't love to shop for clothes. Maybe she really is a man.

    ReplyDelete
  34. i think a point is almost always being missed by (particularly, but not exclusively) the defenders of those such as instapundit. why do their errors always seem to redound to the benefit of their prior expressed beliefs? does that not bother the david byron's of the world? that every time an instapundit or a bill o'reilly or a limbaugh make a "mistake" that it just so happens it has reinforced a world view, and a meme, that is exactly what they want their readership/viewership to believe?

    you see, at a certain point, it is simply not credible, not even close, that these are "mistakes". if sometimes reynolds said "greenhouse gasses will destroy the world in 10 years" and later had to mea culpa with a "it's not as bad as all that", well, then maybe we could chalk it up to having to be a pundit...instantly. that never happens. the math is clear. the guy has a worldview he is trying to push (must...not...break...godwin's..law) and that is clearly what comes first for him. truth is a far second. that makes him a propagandist, not a person with whom one must politely riposte.

    david, you seem like a real human, as opposed to a paid troll, so while you have some interesting points to make, ultimately your starting point (instapundit is a serious writer who deserves fair play) is faulty: instapundit is a paid apologist (or worse, a voluntary one) for power above all else. there was a government in the thirties in the middle of europe who had guys like him on their side, but i can't remember their name.

    ReplyDelete
  35. PS One of the more informative and comprehensive analyses of the putsch underway by the Right is provided by Kevin Phillips. For a nice introduction of his analysis, see this radio interview with him done by MPR.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Anonymous3:37 PM

    Amen, Glenn. Right-wing political theater, especially coming from blogs, depends on intimidation and smear tactics. Widely exposing the wingers' extremism has wonderful effects -- witness the Latino community's reaction when the Tancredo clan crawled from beneath their rock. Media Matters , TDS, and the progressive blogosphere make a huge difference. We should always take the fight to those who would destroy this country's long tradition of lawful political dissent.

    ReplyDelete
  37. In his on-line email debate with UofChicago constitutional law professor Geoffrey Stone, judge Richard Posner comments on privacy via a vis terrorism:

    I would be content if we had a Security Service that operated under all the legal restrictions that constrain the FBI in its domestic-intelligence role. I take it you would be content as well, although we might differ about what those restrictions are, specifically restrictions on electronic surveillance. As to that I will say for now only that Americans have already sold most of their privacy to commercial vendors, health insurers, employers, motor-vehicle bureaus, and providers of online services such as Google, and that the incremental “invasion” of our remaining privacy caused by government data mining for clues to terrorist activity would be slight if that data mining is conducted with appropriate safeguards (not including warrant requirements), and well worth the benefits in counterterrorism.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Anonymous3:40 PM

    David,
    But when you criticise someone, or correct them and they retract and graciously apologise that's acting like a gentleman and you don't piss on them for doing it. Even if you suspect they are doing it insincerely. How could you have asked for a better response from Instapundit than the one you got on the question of Kos' support?

    you make good points in general, but I dont think they apply here.

    Reynolds, as I understand it, knows that Greenwald published his piece before Reynolds retracted his mistake (both by the date and e mails that he received on it by well known people) and yet still attacked Greenwald for publishing this after he issues his correction, which if true was blantatly false and misleading.

    additionally, the corrections in this case indicate evidence of having engaged in a series of mistakes, which he happened to get called out for. How prevalent is this?

    On the wildly popular and media darling Malkin's site, for example, it is continual, although it usually consists of perversions of logic, and the engagement of divisive, misleading, rhetoric that appeals to our worst emotions and biases.

    The point is, Reynolds engaged in a persistent pattern here, and did not just get one or two things wrong, but a series of things wrong. And, perahps even more importantly, he grossly mischaracterized the Kos Community and Dean.

    This is what the far right wants America to believe, and has gotten America to believe.

    I can't tell you how many people I meet who tell me they are republicans... we talk... they finally go to me "yeah, you're right, I am a democrat, I just don't want to be one of those [fill in adjective here] liberals"

    people falsely characterize themselves as republicans because they identify democrats not with what they are, but with how the far right has mischaracterized and painted them. (If you don't think this is true, just think back to how the far right and Bush campaign mischaracterized Kerry to America (including to some democrats and liberals, even!) I covered one example of the general pattern of mischaracterization -- of both candidate and issues -- regarding the seminal issue of the 2004 election here)

    --it's also one of several reasons that (particularly on the Kos site) I continually suggest, the urges of human nature aside, to shelve the vitriol, (often self righteous)bush as opposed to bush policy hating, conclusionary (telling, rather than showing, particularly telling people what they should feel)statements, and heavy name calling and use of adjectives. Not only does this alienate the same cross section of America that needs to be reached, but it also plays right into some of the prominent stereotypes sucessfuly used by the far right

    ReplyDelete
  39. Anonymous3:42 PM

    "Oppoents (sic)to this latest putsch against American democracy must return to defining its terms, historically basing its attack in terms that inspire with an alternative vision of democratic life, a return to the hard work that's needed in asessing why and how many in this country find the current vocabulary of the left dull, hollow, and almost beside the point."

    The clear voice of reason. Amen.

    3:06 PM

    ReplyDelete
  40. notherbob2 said...

    "I would like to see you admit that you were wrong in this case to predict Instapundit wouldn't retract his claim about Kos."

    Yeah, I'd like to see that too. Otherwise, it seems to me that Mr. Greenwald is doing exactly what he accuses Instapundit of doing.


    Not correct. Greenwald made a prediction about Reynolds' reaction to his error, that prediction may have been incorrect, but a prediction is not nearly the same thing as a factual assertion.

    The uneducated reader knows that this only represents Greenwald's opinion about what will happen. It is not a factual claim.

    Besides, I do not accept Reynolds' "innocent mistake" defence. It is an exceedingly simple matter to search for Kos' position on Webb and he should have done so for no other reason than to find a post on DailyKos where Kos endorses' Webb's opponent in order to link to it in his posting. He is making claims about the state of the Left Wing blogosphere and its support for various candidates and he's so cocksure of his perceptions he doesn't even bother to look anything up to find out if the netroots hates Webb or whatever, even if just to show his readers. Greenwald routinely links to multiple right wing sites when making generalizations about their positions.

    Reynolds made a grossly negligent error that demostrates his arrogance and poor research quality of his posting. Greenwald opined and was possibly proven wrong (we'll never know whether emails or the public refutations are what prompted his retraction, but it is worth noting that Greenwald's prediction was that emails would do nothing.

    Nonetheless, at worst a minor prediction went awry in the course of correcting someone's factual abuses. It is not the same thing as being factually wrong about an easily researchable subject.

    Greenwald in effect did "retract" this prediction merely by updating the post to link to Reynolds' retraction. He acknowledged the retraction took place, and his prior prediction is unverifiable absent Reynolds taking a lie detector test or something to show exactly what prompted him to make the retraction.

    And the effort to change the subject and try and make Greenwald "just as bad" as Reynolds is noted - it has failed. At best, Reynolds is a piss-poor researcher, and more likely a willful liar who simply got called out too publicly to stand behind his clearly false assertions.

    Last on this: We will really see which Glenn is "better" when we see if Instapundit backs off his repetitive claims of an "extreme" left netroots, or acknowledges that DailyKos et al are not fringe, extremist or any other pejorative adjective denoting that they differ a great deal from the political opinions of the majority of Democrats. For example, if Lieberman wins his primary, I personally predict Reynolds will make a similar post about how this is a repudiation of the DailyKos left and whatnot, and perhaps even repeat the tired canard of Kos' poor electoral track record.

    Finally, apropo to this actual post: Mr. Greenwald, please keep refuting the popular extremists and liars of the right. This is important work. Lies that see wide circulation must be refuted, as they do not go away on their own.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Anonymous3:51 PM

    notherbob2

    You got a little running down your chin there.

    Might want to wipe that off, you know how people will talk.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Glenn, You bring up some very important points here. The notion of leaving the extremists to rampage through the field is repugnant to say the least. To let them do so also seems even more frustrating and dispiriting to those who oppose them.

    I was one of those who called for a change of tactics in engaging the lies and deception of the Right. In a nutshell, I suggested that those who oppose these extremists should expand on an alterative vision of what America should be.

    Unless one can attack them by motivating others to see that what they are doing poses a clear and present danger to democracy, any and all protestations will fall on fallow ground. The statements will simply sit there and rot because there's nothing to provide the types of beliefs and emotions that will get people to do something about it.

    Opposing facts with facts is surely gratifying in some respects. Yet, few people are motivated to act by facts alone. They must have some framework within which to see those facts and tie them up to issues and emotional aspects of their lives and that mean something.

    What I find odd about the opponents of the Right is that they cannot agree on what the root causes and motivating ideology are behind the conservative operatives. On the grand scale, their goal is nothing more than or less than a usurpation of power. They have undertaken a sweeping attack on the foundation of how we understand democracy and the relationship that ordinary citizens have with how power is exercised in this democracy.

    The legal system is just one prong of this attack. Other--perhaps more important--aspects include the reshaping of the cultural dimension, with its related religious, media, and educational subsystems. I say perhaps more important because it is these dimensions of a democracy that provide exactly those terms, concepts, and emotional associations that allow the facts, rhetoric and deception of the Right to take root.

    Many people have noted the reluctance and tardiness of a Democratic Party response to the power-play undertaken by the Right. Many analyses of this kind see the lack of a response in the conventional terms that politicos and political operatives always use to explain dysfunctions in the democracy.

    But isn't it the very ability to think in more creative, imaginative and politically radical terms that will effectively counter the anti-democratic forces at work in the country?

    In other words, opponents of this administration and its allies must begin to see the real threat here--the massive extent to which the conservatives have undermined many of the legitimating institutions that have developed over the years to guarantee democratic processes.

    The onslaught against the judiciary and legal system is a secondary or even tertiary phase that has followed the creation of a political/cultural vocabulary by which the Right can confine/define "legitimate" political debate.

    I quoted de Tocqueville in a previous argument you posted. His analysis of the dangers threatening American democracy are worth revisiting. In his work on what he calls a democratic tyranny, he quite effectively, if somewhat tentatively, identifies why and how such a tyranny can develop in a democracy.

    In Book 4, chapter 6 of # Democracy in America — Volume 2, he writes:

    It is in vain to summon a people, which has been rendered so dependent on the central power, to choose from time to time the representatives of that power; this rare and brief exercise of their free choice, however important it may be, will not prevent them from gradually losing the faculties of thinking, feeling, and acting for themselves, and thus gradually falling below the level of humanity.

    How have the people reached this desperate situation? By cherishing their private ends over the concerns of others, by charting their successes in living in a democracy by their own self-satisfaction and the small circle of friends and family they envision as their own; de Tocqueville characterizes the rise of democratic tyranny as the struggle between freedom and equality.

    What conditions the people in this way has devolved to mass media. With its massive tools for influence and manipulation by sophisticated marketing tools and political consultants, the people can be put to sleep, imagining that the vying for power has been, somehow magically, solved by processes that they do not wish anymore to engage in because it breaks them out of their personal and private lives.

    So the different approach I have advocate is not to engage the Right in terms of the barroom brawl they turn all political debate into. Opponents to this latest putsch against American democracy must return to defining its terms, historically basing its attack in terms that inspire with an alternative vision of democratic life, a return to the hard work that's needed in assessing why and how many in this country find the current vocabulary of the left dull, hollow, and almost beside the point.

    [edited for typos and added link]

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous4:03 PM

    Hume said:

    "Malkin is worth tackling for two good reasons: A) she is very influential, particularly in the blogosphere; and B) her work is harmful disinformation that needs to be examined and eviscerated."

    very well said. I would add to this that the fact that she often engages in distortion and gets the facts wrong ITSELF NEEDS TO SOMEHOW BE TURNED INTO "the story."

    this sounds very similar, but it is not. think back to what the Fox channel did with respect to CBS's rather reckless use of a non authenticated document back in 2004 (the fact that the underlying points of the document were correct notwithstanding ). ((they shredded CBS's credibility and turned it into a [largely false] example of the false but pervasive characterization of the "liberal media."))

    by making it into "the story," it doesnt just address a particular wrong, but makes the "fact" of that wrong itself also a large focal point.

    for example, in contrast, usually the harm done by an original mistake, purposeful or not, far exceeds the subsequent harm done to that source, by "illustrating" the mistake(and/or does not even fully undo the effect of the original mischaracterization). (the far right is extremely gifted at accomplishing the opposite of this. democrats, at least in the 2004 campaign, not so much).

    that needs to be reversed. making this persistent prevalant pattern of the far right into the story (and several stories) will undermine what is far far too much credibility and influence given the typically egregious distortions and factual misrepresentations or omissions.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Anonymous4:04 PM

    There are two ways to respond to right-wing extremists.

    One is emotional: they're lying and it's terrible that they're lying. That way plays directly into their hands: the responders are dismissed as loonie leftie extremists. Their emotional response *proves* that they're not thinking right.

    The other way to respond is practical, without emotion. Sure, these guys are lying. If that's how they want to spend their life, that's fine. But we are going to set the record straight, anyway.

    I believe those who advocate ignoring the extremists are right that an emotional response is counter-productive. They feed on emotion.

    But if you respond without the indignation they expect, and point out their mistakes matter-of-factly, they just look stupid, and they lose.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Anonymous4:33 PM

    From shooter242 at 2:42PM:

    "The truth of the matter is that the balance of vitriol, deprecation, and general slime is carried by your side of the aisle."

    Sorry, shooter. Not one 'example' you give equals anything offered by the characters I've listed. Your own list of 'extremists' is laughable (extremely so), particularly when you lump Farrakahn in with Mrs. Sheehan or Ted Kennedy.

    Go crawl back under your bed and leave the grown-ups to talk, okay? You're just embarrassing yourself here.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Anonymous4:37 PM

    From shooter242 at 4:32PM:

    "The reason for both A and B is that she is very well researched and documented."

    Really? Is that why "In Defense of Internment" was found to be so riddled with both factual and narrative errors? Or why "Unhinged" works only if you don't examine the context of the 'statements' she brays about?

    ReplyDelete
  47. Anonymous4:43 PM

    Gandalf said...
    There are two ways to respond to right-wing extremists.

    One is emotional: they're lying and it's terrible that they're lying. That way plays directly into their hands: the responders are dismissed as loonie leftie extremists. Their emotional response *proves* that they're not thinking right.

    The other way to respond is practical, without emotion. Sure, these guys are lying. If that's how they want to spend their life, that's fine. But we are going to set the record straight, anyway.

    I believe those who advocate ignoring the extremists are right that an emotional response is counter-productive. They feed on emotion.

    But if you respond without the indignation they expect, and point out their mistakes matter-of-factly, they just look stupid, and they lose.


    I'm sure the sensible Germans though just like you in the Weimar Republic.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Anonymous4:46 PM

    Slapping down, rigorously disputing, exposing and ridiculing the lies of the wingnutosphere are all well and good, and I don't know that anyone much objects to doing it.

    What seems to be "too much" is the focus some blogs have on taking the media in general and the right wing wackos in particular to task to the detriment of other topics.

    A question arises, how much of the traffic of the hate wing comes from ... well, us? I'm convinced it is a large percentage because so many people on our side are linking to the latest outrageous spew by Tweety or Ann the Man or Bully O'Reilly or whomever is the current lunatic to eviscerate.

    And when people say, "ignore them," I doubt they mean that there shouldn't be any pushback, the issue is more about how much and from what source.

    That's all.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anonymous4:48 PM

    anonymous wrote:

    that I don't think we should be going after them on their terms. Let's make them defend their people and actions

    that is what I think Glenn is doing, and what, in my posts on this subject,I have tried to emphasize.

    democrats need to start thinking like republican in terms of strategy, and more importantly, the way that middle America thinks, and perceives thing. not the way "would never have voted for Bush in a thousand years" liberals, democrats and even moderate independents think.

    kerry, for example, lost because he was mischaracterized as a wishy washy pandering flip flopper who the voters as a result didnt really like or trust (but trusted bush despite his campaign of misrepresentaionts, which democrats could have used directly to undermine his entire campaign platform).

    but the reason he was, and almost every other mistake made by the kerry campaign, emanated at least in part from a failure to understand the importace of both how and why middle america perceives things the way that they did, and do.

    if it sounds like bs to you, but people are voting for it, and assessing your candidate incorrectly, it means they are hearing it differently, and it needs to be addressed, and reversed. likewise, the distorted rhetoric of the far right needs to be exposed as a story, in a definitive way that is illustrative to a cross section of Americans.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anonymous4:55 PM

    Ché Pasa said...

    You take a drive across the flyover states and thru a few other places with your AM radio on. That's where "Hate Liberals, Progressives and multi-culti (colored people) has been coming from for years.


    Ivan,

    We don't own the megaphone. Period.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous5:00 PM

    kerry, for example, lost because he was mischaracterized as a wishy washy pandering flip flopper...

    Mischaracterized? Hardly. Kerry was precisely that.

    For the Democrats to win national elections they'll need to convince voters that they aren't cut-and-run defeatists, that they will protect heterosexual marriage, and that they don't hate God. Until that happens, you'll never win a Southern electoral vote and thus you'll never win another national election.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Anonymous5:06 PM

    Reason's David Weigel on Instapundit's faux disappointment with Republicans and obsession w/ Murtha.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous5:10 PM

    Why do you describe the eloquent Harry Belafonte as an "easily disliked person"?

    Among the many reasons to admire Harry Belafonte is his brilliant work on prison reform and the rehabilitation of prisoners, one of the most important domestic issues facing our society.

    As a role model for blacks, Harry Belafonte is uniquely inspiring.

    If Harry Belafonte is not an "easily liked" person, I can't imagine who would be.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous5:14 PM

    This is American fascism. It needs to be "dealt" with. Most of it isn't true, either, and this wretch will be back to planning attacks on abortion clinics, Mosques and federal buildings soon enough.


    Anonymous....Mischaracterized? Hardly. Kerry was precisely that.

    For the Democrats to win national elections they'll need to convince voters that they aren't cut-and-run defeatists, that they will protect heterosexual marriage, and that they don't hate God. Until that happens, you'll never win a Southern electoral vote and thus you'll never win another national election.


    I suggest all read this in it's entirety. Some things have changed, but only details:

    The Danger of American Fascism

    Need further proof that fascism in America is trying to mainstream?

    Bill O’Reilly says if he was in charge of Iraq he’d run it just like Saddam Hussein did.



    Henry A. Wallace

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous5:15 PM

    So, I guess that means Democrats have to appeal to superstitious bigots fighting uselesss illegitimate amoral wars of choice?

    Southern voters don't consider themselves superstitious bigots. They also, for the most part, support our Iraq war policy. If you believe you're going to get their votes by calling them "supertitious bigots" while calling for us to cut-and-run from Iraq, then you are either a fool or a moron.

    Moreover, if you think Democrats can win a national election without winning a single Southern electoral vote, then you are also delusional.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Anonymous5:17 PM

    shooter wrote:

    Oh please. Here's a nice list just off the top of my head starting with "I hate Republicans" Dean and finishing with "our troops are like nazi's" Durbin.
    Howard Dean
    Michael Moore
    The Daily Show
    The Colbert report
    The Bill Maher Show
    Chris Matthews
    Randy Rhodes
    Al Franken
    Cindy Sheehan
    SId Blumenthal
    Ted Kennedy
    John Murtha
    Maureen Dowd
    Paul Krugman
    Farrakhan
    Al Sharpton
    Jesse Jackson
    Dick "our troops are nazi's" Durbin



    that he included horrid bush administration apolologist chriss matthews on this list indicates just, to use the same phrase as yesterday, how alice in wonderland politics in america is today.

    earlier I wrote about thinking how middle america perceives things. while shooter is also obviously extreme (and, frankly, brainwashd. no emotion just stating facts that those who know the facts realize, and shooter probably does not-- and by the way shooter, that is NOT what Durbin said) he does give some insight.

    when dean made that statement about republicans, most democrats thought he was being tough on republicans. what dean really hates is what the majority of the republican political party has become (etc.etc). by couching it the way that he did, instead, he in effect kicked a lot of America in the balls.

    shooter is not the only one who has mischaracterized dean now as a result (recall earlier how Reynolds tried to lump dean/kos as some fringe, sort of out of touch with reality, but the way the far right wants to spin it, and the way democrats have heretofore allowed them to).

    ReplyDelete
  57. David Byron:

    F*** this. Why do *I* have to be the one defending Instapundit?

    Ummm, no one "ha[s] to be the one defending Instapundit". He's a big boy and can do it himself (as best he can).

    What's unclear is why you feel some need to defend InstaHack here; this isn't the first time he's been "loose" wid' da facts. I find it singularly useless to even bother reading him; "Heh. Indeed." is hardly my idea of useful thought, and even less so when his "facts" (few as they are) are not particularly accurate.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  58. Ivan,

    just to be clear, I was quoting Newiert. Those weren't my words.

    ReplyDelete
  59. cut-and-run defeatists
    as opposed to stay the course defeatists.
    that they will protect heterosexual marriage,
    From what???
    and that they don't hate God.
    Liberals don't hate God. They hate people who profess to love God but utterly fail to recognize him having skipped past all that "Love Thy Enemy" "Turn the other Cheek" and "Get the log out of your own eye before removing the speck from your brother's" stuff.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Anonymous5:27 PM

    shooter wrote

    Like all vermin, they will run for cover when the light is turned on them. And they should be spotlighted everytime they indulge in such dishonesty, every time they associate with the most loathsome characters and groups, and every time they spew their hateful and murderous ralllying cries.
    Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and is probably the only way to rid our body politic of these mental and moral microbes. 1:26 PM

    OK, so here is a typical set of liberal slurs and pejoratives. Would you folks be upset if Coulter wrote this about say....Nancy Pelosi?

    I would think so, given the delicate nature of this blog post. Yet I'll bet not one lib, Dem, prog, or whatever condemns this language between the post above and mine hours later. Let's see if I am right....


    shooter, i happen to agree with you here, somewhat. your analogy is a little flawed (also, pelosi does not spew hatred, she actually even likes bush, just thinks his policies are horrendous, and does not think conservatives (let alone far right wing conservatives) are "traitors," etc, and anonymous is not a best selling author that is constantly on and presented by the media as simply "the right.") but while the facts back up that the far right has continually misrepresented things, it is subjective to conclude or suggest that such extreme bloggers (or whoever is being referred to) are vermin. I also think, and have repeatedly said, that this kind of language turns off more people than it turns on, and keeps the key message from reaching the people that it needs to reach - middle america.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Anonymous5:28 PM

    Shame on Woody Guthrie for having this on his guitar.

    "This machine kills fascists."

    How awful of him. I'm sure the harpies would get him for it.

    ReplyDelete
  62. "The reason for both A and B is that she is very well researched and documented."

    In Bizarro World, maybe. Not on this planet, though.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Anonymous5:32 PM

    Ivan is so naive.

    Good luck with your Hands Across America campaign. I hope all that fence straddling doesn't hurt yer bollocks.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous5:33 PM

    OK, so here is a typical set of liberal slurs and pejoratives.

    Shooter, please indicate what exactly in the quoted text you find objectionable and what you find innaccurate.

    As a conservative, I find the vitriol entirely appropriate in discussing the modern-day socialist Republican party.

    ReplyDelete
  65. I'm all for confronting the likes of Malkin and Coulter and Limbaugh and O'Reilly and the rest of the lie-spewing commentators. In fact, I want to see them called for their falsehoods in a court of law. Why, why why why, I keep asking, doesn't anyone bring them up on libel/defamation charges? Don't we still have libel laws on the books? What has happened to our ability to confront these people in a court of law?

    ReplyDelete
  66. shooter242:

    [yankeependragon] Yes, Malkin, Coulter, Limbaugh, Reynolds, and the rest are themselves poster children for "extremism" in ways no-one on the left mimic nor equal.

    Oh please. Here's a nice list just off the top of my head starting with "I hate Republicans" Dean and finishing with "our troops are like nazi's" Durbin.
    ...
    The Daily Show
    The Colbert report


    The "Colbert Report" is "extremis[t]"???? ROFLMAO!!! Methinks Shoote'rs never watched it. Or perhaps he has. ;-)

    As for the "Daily Show" being "extremist", I'd say that if you don't want people making fun of you, you ought not paint a big friggin' bulls-eye on your a$$. Something that Shooter seems to need to learm, as well.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  67. Anonymous5:44 PM

    Assinonymous said... Moreover, if you think Democrats can win a national election without winning a single Southern electoral vote, then you are also delusional.

    Who's delusional??

    ReplyDelete
  68. Anonymous5:49 PM

    For the Democrats to win national elections they'll need to convince voters that they aren't cut-and-run defeatists

    This right here is all you need to know. If you try to find common ground with this mentality, they will respect you less than they do already, which is not much to begin with. To them, compromise is weakness. Beat the crap out of them and they will follow you anywhere like the little puppy dogs that they are.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Whilst all of us here are enjoying the luxury of debate might I ask if all have CALLED THEIR SENATORS to remind them to vote for Net Neutrality today?

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anonymous6:05 PM

    anonymous wrote
    Ivan,

    We don't own the megaphone. Period


    i agree. the media has become dominated by the far right. i also think this is a far bigger problem than most democrats perhaps seem to think:


    a democracy is only as strong as the quality of its mainstream information. and that information comes from the media.

    but don't just think that becuase of this, all these other things don't matter, or that focusing on addressing the fact the media does not correctly do its job does not matter. take some of that focus and energy and put it into contacting the media,a nd exhorting others to do the same(but please leave outall that vitriol. take it out on the basketball courts intead. it just undermines your message)

    too many democrats also reply to me "well, contacting the media doesnt do any good" so am preempting that here. horse malarky, they;'re human, like everybody else. paul waldman of media matters, a pretty leading expert wrote me "anyone who says that contacting the media [professionaly, courteously] doesnt matter [give them a swift kick in the _ _ _ ]"

    then you go on to write:

    Ivan is so naive.

    Good luck with your Hands Across America campaign. I hope all that fence straddling doesn't hurt yer bollocks.


    I dont think that I come come up with a better example of why democrats lose than what this post exhibits. it is not that you disagree with what I have suggested, it is that you dont even seem to have correctly grasped a word of it.

    "all that fence straddling."

    wow. I think the bush administration, and in 2004 repeatedly argued, is the worst in history. but if this is what you got out of what i wrote -- which was to more effectively make the correct case to a majority of americans...from a political perspective it's a little more frightening than shooters beleif that Chriss "bush talking points" matthews is the extreme left (let alone that there even is such a thing in the public sphere).

    but again, it is representative of how a relatively small number of far right wing republicans have been so able to effectively dominate the debate in America...

    it;s like going up to a fellow soldier, who sits in his tank, blasting away at trees, screaming at the top of his lungs, going, "yeah, take that you vermin scum" and you gently suggest, "take the turret, and aim it at the enemies base," and they turn their turret back to the trees, or their own base camp, and go "that guy, he's so naive."

    that really is an apt analogy, metaphorically speaking. in politics, the goal is to blast away without making it seem like you are, which means effective communication that brings people to your side, and umdermines the other. you are hurting your own side more than the other side, and when someone suggests how to achieve the opposite, you don't even get it. (and you insult). thus, in war, (in war you shoot and destroy, in politics you connect with voters) you think you are doing a lot, but shooting at trees and your own base camp.

    of course, if you could (and enough other democrats) could see this, democrats (and America) would not have the problem it does right now.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Anonymous6:05 PM

    I don't think right wing extremists receive any death threats they don't send to themselves or just make up. That's the problem. They should get them daily like this kbrave kid.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Anonymous6:16 PM

    Ivan @ 6:05

    I don't think you've done much to convince me you aren't incredibly naive. There are many reasons why Democrats have lost elections recently. None of them have anything to do with your or my debating skills. I would suggest that millenarianism and 9/11 had as much or more to do with Kerry's loss than anything. Gore won in 2000. Bush was selected by the SCOTUS because as luck would have it, Reagan and Bush I got to seat 4 to Clinton's 2. People like you are the one's who end up Pastor Martin Niemöller.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Anonymous6:18 PM

    anonymous
    kerry, for example, lost because he was mischaracterized as a wishy washy pandering flip flopper...

    Mischaracterized? Hardly. Kerry was precisely that


    yes, you are right. he was. in fact, you are right about everything. he flip flopped on gay marriage. he flip flopped on the patriot act. he flip flopped o on the Iraq war (by saying that "I aprrove this resolution for one reason and one reason only, to rid Hussein of WMD if the same can not be accomplished thru new joint weapons inspections [[which had not taken place in four years, and which he also said, correctly, that the threat of force was necessary to create]] in joint concert with our allies," when five months later we had no UN support and those same weapons inspectors said "wait, we arent finding anything."

    he flip flopped about No child left behind. he flip flopped about the type of cereal he had for breakfast the day of primary.

    where the hell do you get your information from.

    the right wing spin worked on you. or maybe you are one of those extreme fringe leftists that the far right likes to turn the whole democratic party into.. I dont really know, I dont really care....

    ReplyDelete
  74. Anonymous6:22 PM

    Our trolls intentional misquote of Durbin speaks volumes about the tactics used by the people we are talking about.

    Durbin said that when you hear of some of the atrocities that have been committed you’d think it would be coming a totalitarian regimes, not the U.S. and he was absolutely right in saying that.

    The Limbaughs of the world intentionally take words out of contexts and distort them so they can refer to Sen. Durbin as “Turbin Durbin” and Sen. Barack Obama as “Osama Obama” therby implying that they are part of Al Qaeda and terrorists.

    These are despicable people without consciences or shame. We can’t expect honest quotes from them, or honest arguments, they can’t win that way, so they must resort to dishonesty and gutter tactics.

    Thank goodness people like Glenn are finally taking them to task for this, they’ve gotten away with this for far too long.

    ReplyDelete
  75. longhairedweirdo said,
    You have to recognize that they are saying what they say because they perceive there to be a market for it. They're doing it to make money... nothing else.

    Exactly. They are also dunking booth clowns. The madder you get at them the more money they make. They are just very profitable trolls. So many fishies. By the way--

    Baba Booey! Baba Booey! Baba Booey!
    HOWARD STERN RULES!!!

    As either Mae West, Suzanne Summers or Marcel Marceau said:
    "Keep on slinging those balls, somebody is bound to get their makeup wet."

    ReplyDelete
  76. Anonymous6:32 PM

    shooter242 said:
    For every measured word by people like you, there is a hundred foul ones from people like the various anonymous that lurk in dark rooms with tin hats.

    This coming from the person that believes civilian deaths are sometimes okay. How's that for extreme?

    ReplyDelete
  77. I love that righties pick on Durbin's comments, and ignore Bill O'Reilly who actually accused Americans of committing a massacre in WWII that was actually done by the SS. Sickening hypocrisy.

    The fact is there is no Left wing personality who uses the kind of language that Colter and Malkin use in describing the opposition.

    None of that list comes even close. The Daily Show? That it is even on the list shows the massive reality disconnect there - RNC Chair Mehlman has been on that show more than once, as have many very conservative republicans. While Stewart challenges their ideas, do you ever see him shut off their mics? Or shout them down? Or even let his audience do so? In fact, he makes a point of shushing his audience if they ever try and embarrass his guests.

    The man has class and yes, he calls them as he sees them on Bush and Co, but shit - that puts him on the level of Colter? Are you for fucking real?

    Churchill and Hitler are not equivalent. Yes, I am comparing the hate and lie-filled propoganda of Ann Coulter to the Nazis. Fuck "Godwin's Law" - that was never meant to mean that no one could ever mention Nazis again - just a caution against doing so in ridiculous terms. She is equally mendacious in advocating outright falsehoods to further a political aim. She is equally blatant and deceptive. The things she is saying are not equally racially charged and she is not openly using race or a particular minority religion as a target of hate.

    Though, arguably she is actually targetting a lot of hatred at athiests, who are arguably a religious minority, and a persecuted one to boot.

    Shall we start rouding up the athiests too? Maybe get the agnostics after that? Then the Christians who don't go to church enough.

    Ann has talked about rounding up liberals and charging them with treason - how different is that from Nazi hate-speech?

    We must call her out on her hatred and vicious slander. We must make Bush and the Republicans denounce her, or wear her hatred like anvils to the ballot box.

    ReplyDelete



  78. Ignoring extremists is the worst possible thing one could do


    Ignoring LYING extemists is the worst possible thing one could do. The use of simply dishonest caricatures and the pursuit of profoundly dishonest narratives is tremendously corrosive. We need to call them on their dishonesty, and their partisan, unfounded, hatred.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Anonymous7:15 PM

    anonymous

    I dont know if you are the same anonmyous who I gave some (well deserved) grief too
    (the use of the anonymous label is a little annoying, frankly)

    I think you may be someone who signed, Henry Wallace which may be a different person, but either way great link to what O Reilly said today. thanks for referencing it.

    It is astounding, and it should be made into a national story. (it won't, but if it was a democrat, like dick durbin, probably getting misquoted, it sure would). I wrote a short piece on it here

    ReplyDelete
  80. Anonymous8:28 PM

    I don't think you've done much to convince me you aren't incredibly naive. There are many reasons why Democrats have lost elections recently. None of them have anything to do with your or my debating skills. I would suggest that millenarianism and 9/11 had as much or more to do with Kerry's loss than anything. Gore won in 2000. Bush was selected by the SCOTUS because as luck would have it, Reagan and Bush I got to seat 4 to Clinton's 2. People like you are the one's who end up Pastor Martin Niemöller.

    (a coin toss is as good as loss, btw).

    this is profound. you are clearly articulate, but serve as THE CLASSIC example of why democrats lose, even when they are intelligent. EXCUSE AFTER EXCUSE AFTER EXCUSE AFTER EXCUSE.

    like I'm not aware of those things, or the role that they played, or several hundred other things that you have probably not even contemplated.

    but the fact is, trumping all of that, the democrats lost becuase of one fundamental areason, and one only (FAR RIGHT WING) REPUBLICANS CONVINCED AMERICA OF THEIR CASE BETTER THAN THE DEMOCRATS DID, when the democrats nevertheless had almost all of the facts on their side (particularly in 2004).

    and you call that naive. hilarious, if it wasnt so friggin sad (and that's the closest I've ever come to cursing in a post, that i can remember at least. and Im still thinking of changing the spelling back to a word that rymes with "ducking").

    ReplyDelete
  81. Anonymous8:34 PM

    Hume,

    thanks, yeah, I knew you were quoting, but couldn't remember who from. I actually referenced that, and took it out, because it made the sentence too long (my bad). I also referenced the quote elsewhere, giving attribution to your post, and noting that you were quoting someone else therein.

    again,I want to emphasize, in case you missed my earlier posts, that it was a brilliant piece. some of the most important writing that I have seen on the Internet is "hidden" away on this site. I know it is popular, but I still think a strategy for making these points more prevalent to the media, and mainstream America, would be helpful.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Anonymous8:34 PM

    Hume,

    thanks, yeah, I knew you were quoting, but couldn't remember who from. I actually referenced that, and took it out, because it made the sentence too long (my bad). I also referenced the quote elsewhere, giving attribution to your post, and noting that you were quoting someone else therein.

    again,I want to emphasize, in case you missed my earlier posts, that it was a brilliant piece. some of the most important writing that I have seen on the Internet is "hidden" away on this site. I know it is popular, but I still think a strategy for making these points more prevalent to the media, and mainstream America, would be helpful.

    ReplyDelete
  83. shooter242 keeps the "RW talking points" lie going:

    Sorry bud but the Supremes declared Gore's plan unconstitutional 7-2. Revise your history elsewhere please.

    Covered here et.seq at length.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  84. Anonymous8:43 PM

    GOP Senator Uses Research Linked To Opus Dei To Support Gay Marriage Ban...
    AlterNet.org | Bob Geiger | June 19, 2006 at 03:49 PM

    The United States Senate is often called "the greatest deliberative body in the world," which usually raises the bar on the tenor and intellectual content of speeches given on the floor, if not for the official record.

    Not so for Sen. Sam Brownback, R-Kan., who took to the Senate floor last week to deliver a strident push for the bigoted "Marriage Protection Amendment." Alongside the typical massive distortions of the issue was an argument that was based almost solely on the opinion of a little-known conservative think tank affiliated with the Roman Catholic organization Opus Dei.

    READ WHOLE STORY | READ OR ADD COMMENTS (73)

    From Huffington Post.


    2.8 billion dollars. Scalia. Alito? Thomas? Roberts?

    ReplyDelete
  85. Anonymous8:51 PM

    shooter:



    """Sorry bud but the Supremes declared Gore's plan unconstitutional 7-2. Revise your history elsewhere please"""

    aside from your interesting summary of the case, you sure about the numbers here?

    """Because the truth is it's own defense. The reality that most of you seem to overlook is that whatever Malkin, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, et al. present, they have no doubt that liberals will assault it with everything they can muster. So, for the most part nothing gets by that isn't verified.

    On the other hand liberals will say just about anything without worrying if it's true or not""""

    this is hilarious. but this is what a lot of people really believe. flipping reality on its head. as suggested yesterday, politically, alice in wonderland.

    shooter, you NEED to believe this, in order to perpetuate your far right wing beliefs. the real question, why do you have them in the first place. what exactly are they, and how do they comport with the reality that is the present leaderhips in America (oh, yeah, I forgot. if you can flip the above upside down, you can flip anything upside down)

    ReplyDelete
  86. Anonymous8:56 PM

    From shooter242 at 8:23PM:

    "Because the truth is it's own defense. The reality that most of you seem to overlook is that whatever Malkin, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, et al. present, they have no doubt that liberals will assault it with everything they can muster. So, for the most part nothing gets by that isn't verified."

    'For the most part' is the best you can come up with?

    http://mediamatters.org/items/200606090014 for just a short sampling of how often 'for the most part' comes up with the bottle-blonde.

    The woman is either a pathological liar, or a sociopath.

    And you, young sir, are either blindly naive or an outright masochist who actually enjoys the repeated smack-downs you receive here.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Anonymous9:14 PM

    That’s not the full quote from Durbin, it is - here.

    Durbin does not think that the U.S. should engage in torture. Apparently our troll finds that despicable, and treasonous.

    Durbin has nothing to apologize for – at all.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous9:18 PM

    To shooter242 -

    You really can't see what Durbin was saying right there, can you? You can't even grasp the context involved nor the ultimate consequences.

    And there's quite simply no way to explain it to you that will penetrate. I speak from experience, for the sheer number of times you've been corrected or shot down or simply been proved *wrong*. You just don't understand.

    You can't. You just aren't equipt to. You're stuck in a Norman Rockwell painting and think *that's* reality.

    Explain to me how Durbin's statement was wrong. Explain to me how the behavior of US troops he was describing was in any way different from Stalin's Russia, Hitler's Germany, or the Khmer Rouges at their worst.

    Explain how you can be so outraged at the documented *truth*.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Glenn,

    Well said. We have to keep a light on those dark spots in our culture, who would no doubt be quite comfortable in 1930's Germany. Their violent rhetoric is dangerous, and feeds those among us who would love to take them at their words.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Anonymous9:57 PM

    From shooter242 at 9:43PM:

    "What in the world is the matter with you?"

    There you have it, folks: the simple, demonstrated banality of genuine evil.

    He finds torture and inhumane treatment of POWs acceptable, even worthwhile. He neither understands nor likely comprehends that the degree of the act is less important than the underlying intent.

    He simply can't grasp it.

    Shooter, torture is torture; its wrong, its degrading to both sides, and its illegal.

    And its what some of our troops are doing right now.

    No, our troops aren't engaging in mass murder (that we know of, anyway). But neither are they pure angels of mercy and light, and more than a few of them are behaving as savages.

    Does that make them entirely evil? No.

    Does this excuse their conduct? No.

    You want perfect equivalence between actions before accepting the obvious? I really feel sorry for you, then, as absolutism like that doesn't really work well in our grayscale world.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Anonymous10:11 PM

    From anonymous at 10:03PM:

    "What is torture? Please provide your definition. Is waterboarding torture? Sleep deprivation? Loud noise? Cold?"

    Yes to all.

    "When you say "torture is torture," what do you mean?"

    Look up the legal definition. Start with http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=torture

    Then look up the UN Convention on the issue at http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/cat.htm

    Then let your imagination run wild what it could all entail. I'm quite sure you'll come up with something.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Anonymous10:21 PM

    Yes to all.

    Well, waterboarding, sleep deprivation and cold are all allowed under current U.S. law during the interrogation of prisoners who may have information that will save lives.

    So, your definition of torture is much narrower than that allowed under U.S. law.

    ReplyDelete
  93. shooter242:

    Will you believe the Supreme Court's website and abstract?
    "Noting that the Equal Protection clause guarantees individuals that their ballots cannot be devalued by "later arbitrary and disparate treatment," the per curiam opinion held 7-2 that the Florida Supreme Court's scheme for recounting ballots was unconstitutional."


    The per curiam lied. It is simply not true that "[s]even Justices of the Court agree that there are constitutional problems with the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court that demand a remedy". Four justices dissented. Breyer and Souter (the two allegedly concurring) said the U.S. Supreme was wrong to take the case to begin with. Hardly the opinion of someone who thought there was a "problem[]" that "demand[s] a remedy". But I'd note that the per curiam authors didn't really think there were problems that "demand a remedy" ... because they didn't actually provide one! They left in place the recounts that had already taken place which they were supposedly so aghast over! And the recounts they stopped and were supposedly ruling on hadn't even happened (a point that Breyer made; he said that the time to take care of any problems was "if and when" they were shown to make a difference. That is to say, you know, when an actual factual record was developed to look at....

    I covered this at length at the link I gave above.

    I have no idea what "synopsis" you're referring to (Your link is busted), but the published opinions themselves are certainly more authoritative.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  94. shooter242 doesn't knwo how to add:

    Oh really? What just happened here? The liberal conventional wisdom is that Gore lost 5-4, and you bought into it. Well that's not exactly true is it? Apparently you've never heard that there were multiple aspects to the decision, but that the important one was 7-2.

    Ummmm, nope. Four dissents. "Dissenting." "Dissenting." "Dissenting." And ... ummm ... "Dissenting." Not "Concurring as to Part I and dissenting as to the remedy." Just "dissenting".

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  95. Anonymous11:19 PM

    What Glenn is describing is the "walk away from the bully" tactic. The worst thing you can do is walk away. This is one of the responses the bully thrives on day in and day out.

    You're much better confronting the bully. When they reach out with an arm of logic you break it. When they try to voice their arguments, you strangle them with logic. Every word and every threat should be answered. When you have them down and your sitting on their chest you pound out your thesis on their face.

    Rolling over and taking it is for good Germans.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Anonymous11:30 PM

    What this post reminds me of, is this essay about The Satanism of the Religious Right. Please read it, and follow the links to the five-part essay by Brad Hicks.

    http://lightningbug.blogspot.com/2004_12_26_lightningbug_archive.html

    ReplyDelete
  97. Anonymous11:31 PM

    Every word and every threat should be answered. When you have them down and your sitting on their chest you pound out your thesis on their face...Rolling over and taking it is for good Germans.

    Isn't that exactly what the right has done to you folks for the last 25 years?

    All you seem to be able to do is whine about it. As far as I can tell, the right will continue to "pound out their thesis in your face" far out into the distant future.

    Does that make you a "good German"?

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anonymous12:28 AM

    Ivan,

    You are an incredibly naive simpleton who spouts GOP talking points or you are a troll. Probably, you are just too young, albeit articulate and semi-literate, to recognize that in a two party duopoly like we have, there is inevitably going to be this kind bi-polarization and ebb and flow of competing ideologies. Please internalize GOP talking points some more and keep losing elections. In the mean time, entertain us. Regale us all with the innumerable stories of your "conversions". Reason always triumphs over every other passion. If only we would just be reasonable! The fact remains that Republicans and conservatives, (all demoagogues and fascists) appeal to the baser human instincts and prejudices. In short, they lied and sold dumb as rocks Americans a pig in a poke. As is oft attributed to H.L. Mencken,
    no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people. And most politicians, crooks and con men get very wealthy that way.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Anonymous12:29 AM

    mainsailset said: "...it is of primary importance to unemotionally draw the facts to the surface, immediately and every time..."

    This needs to be emphasized. What Coulter et al count on is an *emotional* reaction to their attacks. Their worst fear is not being wrong, but being boring.

    So while I'm on the fence about the best way to tell them they're boring (by ignoring them outright or by semi-indiferent, calm refutations of their statements), I do think it would be worse to react emotionally than not react at all.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Anonymous12:31 AM

    DB, for what it's worth, I understand your logic and think, in some general situations, that it's a good point. Reward good behavior: punish bad behavior. Don't punish good behavior, or it won't be repeated. Instapundit retracted, you got what you wanted, don't overkill.

    Personally, I agree with you.

    However, this is a bad windmill to tilt at. Instapundint really does link to all kinds of wild-eyed, dishonest, irresponsible, extremist demagoguery, with little reasonable-sounding comments in the margins that rarely echo the lunatic sentiments directly, but clearly steer you towards them.

    He is the most respectable tip of a right-wing media iceberg of demonization, and this sort of force inevitably spans its opposite number.

    In a perfect world, Kos or even Glenn might stay razor-fair, but in said world, Instahack wouldn't even exist. Reynolds got caught with a distortion that isn't even atypical of him. The atypical side is that he got caught. Retracting his error doesn't suddenly make people trust or like him, and doesn't change their basic opinions of him. It may be less than perfectly fair - or you can say that Reynolds' retraction is a detail in a larger picture of demonization, and people are determined to use those tactics against their source, as neccesary to shut the thing down.

    There's a time for the sort of perfect neutral-judgement you're talking about - but this isn't the time or place.

    ReplyDelete
  101. Anonymous12:32 AM

    Assinonymous says...Isn't that exactly what the right has done to you folks for the last 25 years?

    All you seem to be able to do is whine about it. As far as I can tell, the right will continue to "pound out their thesis in your face" far out into the distant future.

    Does that make you a "good German"?


    Yes, those bad Germans thought they would have a third Thousand Year Reich, too. It lasted about 5 years. Your time is up.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Anonymous1:03 AM

    Anonymous said... The fact remains that Republicans and conservatives, (all demoagogues and fascists) appeal to the baser human instincts and prejudices. In short, they lied and sold dumb as rocks Americans a pig in a poke. As is oft attributed to H.L. Mencken, no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people. And most politicians, crooks and con men get very wealthy that way.

    You are being far too unkind to any box of rocks. One shudders to think what kind of troglodytes elected this moron. Oh yeah! Here they are in a rare peek behind the curtain at Fox News calling them, (their audience), trailer trash pie.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Anonymous1:06 AM

    Ivan is the modern day Neville Chamberlain. He wants to give conservatives a hug and a lecture.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Recap:

    1) Reynolds talks out his ass to suit his (groundless) biases about a race he knows shit about

    2) Greenwald notes his factual inaccuracies, and moreso, how they pertain to his absurd notion that the left netroots are "extremists" or "fringe" and interprets the webb victory in that light. Greenwald easily eviserates Reynolds for his shoddy research, flawed premise and even more flawed conclusion.

    3) Reynolds retracts, and goes on to lie saying Greenwald picked on him after he had retracted his "innocent mistake"

    4) Kos now eviserates Reynolds, providing the text of his email to Reynolds, which contained a link to Greenwald's post, posted PRIOR to Reynolds' retraction (by a substantial period of time)

    5) Greenwald defends his attacks on right wing liars and miscreants as a necessary activity to bring the nation back to sane discourse. Extremists cannot be ignored by sane people because clearly they have too much influence and ignoring them hasn't worked at all.

    6) Trolls come here and try to make this some kind of thing about Greenwald, because he holds Reynolds in very low esteem and Reynolds just cleared the very low bar Greenwald set. Wow, Reynolds won the game of lowered expectations. (shock)Why isn't Greenwald apologizing?(/shock)

    7) Other trolls as usual try to make this about Bush v Gore. Mandatory mentions of all their favourite liberal boogeymen, like Michael Moore and some mistquote of Dick Durbin all to distract us from the issue at hand. Hope the pay is shitty for trolling liberal blogs to sway public opinion.

    8) Instapundit is still a shill with no credibility who will lie if he can get away with it.

    That's your 12:30am EST recap.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous2:09 AM

    Anonymous said...

    kerry, for example, lost because he was mischaracterized as a wishy washy pandering flip flopper...

    "Mischaracterized? Hardly. Kerry was precisely that."

    Actually he wasn't but he did make it easy for the Republicans to portray him that way.

    "For the Democrats to win national elections they'll need to convince voters that they aren't cut-and-run defeatists, that they will protect heterosexual marriage, and that they don't hate God. Until that happens, you'll never win a Southern electoral vote and thus you'll never win another national election."

    So to win you believe that the Democrats need to become evangelical christian Republicans?

    What would be the purpose of having two parties if they are both the same? Oh yeah, that's right, that's what we've had for the last 13 years ,Republicans and Republican Lights.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Anonymous2:21 AM

    shooter 242
    More interesting is the demonstration of what the nameless wonder cares about.
    We have the full Durbin quote......
    "If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime--Pol Pot or others--that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners."

    And my paraphrase......"our troops are like nazi's" Durbin


    whoever the fuc you are, you brainwashed radical right wing fascist, I give you props for coming on to one of the best blogs in America and actually (trying, right?) to consider points of view other than your own.

    that being said, durbin's comments, as ill advised as they were, were pretty clear. His point was this WAS the way that those other totalitarian armies behaved, NOT the way that ours do -- therefore, that they seemed to in this instance, under orders, is ANTI AMERICAN.

    His whole point was that this was not what American armies do, therefore making the point as to why this is so striking, and out of line with our history, values, and what our troops are and stand for.

    how the fuc did you not get that? oh that's right, none of the right wing spin machine got it. they (you) get nothing but what you want to see.

    david byron: what the fuc is your problem:

    you keep quibbling about stupid shit. did glenn piss on that cant get his facts or logic straight instanpundit? yeah. what was reynolds supposed to do when confronted with an outright blatant error?? seriously, what was he supposed to do when he absolutely mangled the most basic facts necessary for the entire premise of his piece?

    and that's cool, we all make mistakes. but then what did he do? ripped back into greenwald, and MADE MORE. clearly, from the facts, some of those were either through gross negligence (not so cool on the immediate heels of the preceeeding ones) or purposefulness.

    and then he was literally forced to address (i.e. apologize) for those, because they were cut and dry black and white as well.

    so what the fuc is your problem?

    ReplyDelete
  107. Anonymous2:44 AM

    Here are some qoutes that have been made by some of the greatest thinkers humanity has ever known. They all seem to support the idea of not ignoring those that would lead us into darkness but that we should expose them at every turn.

    "A person may cause evil to others not only by his actions but by his inaction, and in either case he is justly accountable to them for the injury."
    -- John Stuart Mill, philosopher and economist (1806-1873)
    "All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies."
    - John Arbuthnot, writer and physician (1667-1735)
    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."
    -Susan B Anthony, reformer and suffragist (1820-1906)
    "The penalty that good men pay for not being interested in politics is to be governed by men worse than themselves."
    -- Plato, philosopher (427-347 BCE)
    "The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."
    - Albert Einstein
    Mahatma Ghandi was once asked what he thought about Western civilization. He replied, "That would be a good idea."
    "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality."
    -- Dante
    "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
    - Margaret Mead

    ReplyDelete
  108. Anonymous3:00 AM

    Oh really? What just happened here? The liberal conventional wisdom is that Gore lost 5-4, and you bought into it. Well that's not exactly true is it? Apparently you've never heard that there were multiple aspects to the decision, but that the important one was 7-2. Why is that? Why do libs want to keep that under their hat, hmmmmm?

    So here I come along with the reality that contradict liberal myth and sure enough I'm accosted.


    you didn't get accosted, dumb ass.

    and while I thought the opinion was 5-4, I was not sure, which is why i asked if you were sure (i also read the opinion in its entirey back in 2000, and do have a hard time believing that 7 justices could engage in reasoning that contorted. that said, the LINK you provided did not work. nice job).

    that was an aside, and really, I dont give a flying shit about that opinion. I keep telling _______ _____ _______ _______ _____ ________ _______ that whether Gore won by 1000 votes or lost by 1000 votes is irrelevant to the larger picture. in an election of 10's of million's, it's a tie. a coin flip. furthermore, if the ballots had been counted, Gore still would have lost, according to a chad count that was eventually done for the record (but he would not have had the overseas ballots that blantatly violated florida law because they were tampered with, and would have it the less easily remedied [palm county?} ballots where thousands incorrectly voted for Buchanan in lieu of their intent to vote for Gore, could have been corrected.

    but those are side issues. that said, the Supreme Court decision was a piece of tortured reasoning, given the standard of review that applicable to reviewing what is a state issue to determine (how votes are counted), and I'd still like to see who voted what way if you can provide an accurate link.

    update: i just checked myself. to say that you are on crack would be an injustice to crack addicts. read your own words (in italics above) the opinion was 5-4 dumbass. what you were reciting is far right republican spin, once again, completey mangling the facts. 7 of the justices agreed that there were issues with the recount (no shit) but not that the there was no remedy and that the florida action had to be reversed (which in this case meant the cessation of the Florida attempt to count the "undervote" (chad) votes.)

    it just goes to prove what I said earlier

    YOU ARE BRAINWASHED, as are many of the readers of the far wing sites you probably frequent.

    sorry to break the news to you. I guess its easier to continue to be brainwashed, than try to confront that reality. but you have been duped. on many things. and will most likely continue to be.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anonymous3:31 AM


    Anonymous said...
    Ivan,

    You are an incredibly naive simpleton who spouts GOP talking points or you are a troll. Probably, you are just too young, albeit articulate and semi-literate, to recognize that in a two party duopoly like we have, there is inevitably going to be this kind bi-polarization and ebb and flow of competing ideologies. Please internalize GOP talking points some more and keep losing elections.


    I dont think I have ever encountered a stupider person in my entire Internet experience. YOU DID NOT READ ONE BLANKING WORD, of what I wrote.

    you also repeatedly contradict yourself. now radical lurching to the right in our elected political leaders, is inevitable ebb and flow. not because the democrats did not effectively convey their message even though they had the facts on their side. and I am troll for suggesting that democrats need to learn to convey a mesasge in a way that connects with a cross section of America.

    I swear to God, I have had better conversations with a wall. I think I could also sooner get a wall to see something, than you.

    i would think this was a joke (truly I would) were it not reflective of larger patterns.

    I think it is the defense mechanism. confronted with realizing that YOU DONT KNOW WHAT IN ________ YOU ARE TALKINB ABOUT, (to put it nicely) you do whatever you can to defend your pea of a brain.

    you make shooter 242 look like a genius, frankly.

    it is better than kafka. it really is. I might just publish my points, and your responses, as a the newest and latest theatre of the absurd.

    MIND BOGGLING. why don't you actually read and consider what I wrote (in the off chance that you are not writing this because you know me, are high on crack, and trying to be funny)

    ReplyDelete
  110. Anonymous3:31 AM

    Has anyone ever read the writings of Ken Wilber? Apparently he is well known but I never heard of him until today.

    If anyone is familiar with his work, what do you think of it?

    ReplyDelete
  111. ivan carter:

    update: i just checked myself. to say that you are on crack would be an injustice to crack addicts. read your own words (in italics above) the opinion was 5-4 dumbass.

    Please read my (unfortunately rather tedious; "The Dog" is a retard) posts on this that I linked above (it starts here and continues down to the end of the thread, between "The Dog" and I). It's pretty obvious to anyone with a brain (which necessarily doesn't include Dubya sycophants) that Breyer and Souter thought the majority was full'o'shite.

    Hope this explains things a bit.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  112. Anonymous3:51 AM

    Anne,

    yeah, thanks, I saw your piece afterwards.

    the bottom line....you were relatively clear on. the opinion was 5-4 to overturn the florida supreme court's rule in favor of an undervote recount, with four justices (two dissents, one by 3 justices, one by four) disagreeing and saying the recount should be premitted as per the rule of the Fla Court...

    please explain to me the functioning of anoynmous's brain. I have had more meaningful discussions with mussolini's fascist grandkids....

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous4:08 AM

    Here are some qoutes that have been made by some of the greatest thinkers humanity has ever known. They all seem to support the idea of not ignoring those that would lead us into darkness but that we should expose them at every turn.

    I dont know if you are the same pseudo intellectual dingbat who has been busy ridiculously insulting me (really the anonymous option is not helpful) but if so,

    I agree with the above quote. and then I suggest doing this in a way that most people can understand, (as, obviously, they have not for the past several years), and you start calling me names for this? e.g., simpleton, naive, troll....

    I always thought Franz kafka was overrated, now I know why. he does not hold a candle to reality (or someone on crack pretending to be funny.) I still dont know just what it is that you think that you are reading, because it is not what is being written -- no one can possibly spout for the facts that you do, and at the same time be that blindingly stupid. even shooter, (who, btw, as we have seen, does not tend to get almost any of his facts right).

    btw, sfb, why dont you go to my very humble website, and see all the "republican talking points" that it recites therein.

    ReplyDelete
  114. ivan carter:

    Anne,

    yeah, thanks, I saw your piece afterwards.


    "Arne". Not "Anne".

    the bottom line....you were relatively clear on. the opinion was 5-4 to overturn the florida supreme court's rule in favor of an undervote recount, with four justices (two dissents, one by 3 justices, one by four) disagreeing and saying the recount should be premitted as per the rule of the Fla Court...

    No. Four dissents. All pretty much saying the SCOTUS should have stayed the f*** out to begin with (but with each addressing somewhat different points of dissent, albeit agreeing with each other mostly). Stevens attacked the alleged "standardless" objection. Ginsburg addressed Rehnquists pile'o'crap. Souter disposed of Rehnquist and the per curiam's dishonesty. Breyer focused on the pile'o'crap in the per curiam and poked big holes in their opinion and "remedy".

    please explain to me the functioning of anoynmous's brain. I have had more meaningful discussions with mussolini's fascist grandkids....

    Sorry. I can do some explication of the per curiam's outrageous "jurisprudence", but I'm at a loss as to the merits of some less well examined (and less well known) stuff. Why don't you just say yourself what it is that is troubling you? If I think I can add to the conversation, I will do so.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  115. Anonymous5:03 AM

    Arne,

    sorry about the name thing. it's late.

    I only glanced at the S Ct decision and scanned it (had read it in 2000, but that was 5 1/2 years ago) bc I certainly didnt remember it being 7 -2 as shooter stated, but he made such an enormous deal about being right (and used it as a a prime example of fact to confront "liberal myth")

    and of course, sure eno, he was wrong. it was 5 - 4 and you are right, there were four dissents. but the 7 -2 part (dont feel like going and reading it now) seemed on 5 sec's glance to be a procedural issue, and not substantive, as 4 dissenters were clear they would not have stayed the florida recound as per the fla supreme court's ruling..

    so I think we are pretty much on the same page, but thanks for the clarifications.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Anonymous6:54 AM

    Impulse Response said...
    Calling Instapundit an extremist is flatly silly. Don't you know what "extreme" means? It's not a word you should use up on a Midwest moderate/libertarian.


    Read the 2004 American Libertaraian party platform sometime, stupid. Then, if you still think it isn't extreme, don't bother telling us, seek help.


    The 2004 platform is still as ridiculously extreme as its predecessors. It calls for legalization of baby selling, polygamy, secession, child prostitution, all drugs, insider trading, etc. It calls for abolition of public schools, medicaid, and Social Security, patents, and copyrights. And even privatization of air. All that and lots more, cloaked in vague statements of "liberty", and now carefully sanitized so that non-libertarians won't realize how truly extreme it is.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Anonymous7:09 AM

    ewo said...
    Has anyone ever read the writings of Ken Wilber? Apparently he is well known but I never heard of him until today.

    If anyone is familiar with his work, what do you think of it?


    Yes EWO. If you are interested in his political thought and ideas, try this site as in intro. I think this is an excellent idea, btw. It may be the next step in the progress and development of your political consciousness. Few people are able to grasp what he is on about. Some familiarity with the concept of spiral dynamics might be helpful. It's not Scientology. It's not quite rocket science, either, but close. All the big politicos from Clinton, to Bush to Blair, all the euro leaders have read him.

    ivan carter said...
    Here are some qoutes that have been made by some of the greatest thinkers humanity has ever known. They all seem to support the idea of not ignoring those that would lead us into darkness but that we should expose them at every turn.

    I dont know if you are the same pseudo intellectual dingbat who has been busy ridiculously insulting me (really the anonymous option is not helpful) but if so


    That's what the time stamp is for, genius. See how easily one can get sucked into name-calling? It's a paradigm shift, maybe.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Anonymous7:21 AM

    MIND BOGGLING. why don't you actually read and consider what I wrote (in the off chance that you are not writing this because you know me, are high on crack, and trying to be funny)

    I read what you wrote. You have internalized every GOP talking point going. Partisan politics scares you because at heart, you are a coward (centrist). Centrism is safe. It can be summed up this way. Bill Clinton was the best Republican president since Eisenhower. I have to vote Democratic because I have no other choice. You have the luxury of choosing between the right handed or the left handed moron. Nice rant, BTW, but you are still a naive moron.

    ear to God, I have had better conversations with a wall.

    I can see that. We all can.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anonymous7:41 AM

    It would be nice and all if we had a political culture where extremists and those who traffic in character smears in lieu of substantive political arguments could simply be ignored, so that they would disappear. But the reality is the opposite. Our political dialogue, especially over the last five years, has been shaped primarily by those who specialize in demonizing political opponents as fringe lunatics, depicting disagreement as treason, and deliberately papering over complexities in order to spew misleading political slogans designed to propagandize rather than persuade. The lesson of the Swift Boat debacle, more than anything else, was that to ignore those individuals and those tactics is the best thing one can do . . . for them. It is surprising how many people seem not to have learned that lesson.

    EWO,

    Since Wilber's death, Don Beck is the leading proponent of this new (some may say "new age") paradigm.

    This stuff is not likely to be understood by the lower forms of life stuck in the old left-right paradigm, i.e., most of America. In fact, in some places in this country, it's likely to get you burned at the stake.

    Such as it is here is an article I suggest you look over to get an idea of what it's about.

    The Search for Cohesion
    in the Age of Fragmentation


    From the New World Order to the Next Global Mesh

    Don Edward Beck, Ph. D.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Anonymous8:05 AM

    Anonymous 6:54 - I notice that you don't provide any actual cites, or a link to the party platform. I wonder why that is?

    Baby selling. Hah.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous8:12 AM

    From anonymous at 10:21PM:

    "Well, waterboarding, sleep deprivation and cold are all allowed under current U.S. law during the interrogation of prisoners who may have information that will save lives."

    So? Are you saying the deliberate and systematic infliction of physical and mental harm to POWs is an acceptable action?

    "So, your definition of torture is much narrower than that allowed under U.S. law."

    Its actually much, much, much broader, as you would understand if you'd actually thought about what I wrote or what the physical and mental consequences of just the three actions you mention are.

    But then, I don't seriously expect you to either think about the issue nor its consequences. You don't strike me as the sort to frankly care.

    10:21 PM

    ReplyDelete
  122. Anonymous9:07 AM

    7:09AM and 7:41AM anons:

    Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Anonymous9:39 AM

    Yes EWO. If you are interested in his political thought and ideas, try this site as in intro. I think this is an excellent idea, btw. It may be the next step in the progress and development of your political consciousness.

    And then again, maybe not. I prefer a little humor mixed in with the doubletalk, a la Al Kelly.
    Thanks anyway.

    Few people are able to grasp what he is on about.

    That's encouraging. Too bad Clinton and Blair are not two of those "few people."

    This explains a lot, all humorous.
    Esalen lives, I see.....

    Maybe Dan Brown can use this stuff for his third book. Should be a hoot.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Anonymous10:19 AM

    So? Are you saying the deliberate and systematic infliction of physical and mental harm to POWs is an acceptable action?

    I never used the term "systematic." I do believe, however, that under certain (relatively rare) circumstances the infliction of "physical and mental harm," is acceptable as long as it is not life-threatening, and when it is undertaken to prevent the imminent loss of life.

    Its actually much, much, much broader, as you would understand if you'd actually thought about what I wrote or what the physical and mental consequences of just the three actions you mention are.

    Yes, your definition of torture is broader than that under US law, but I think you know what I meant, i.e., that your defintion of what is permissable is narrower than under current US law.

    But then, I don't seriously expect you to either think about the issue nor its consequences.

    Oh please. The issue is important, and there are two sides in the debate. You are on the minority side, as you are on most issues. This may be frustrating to you, but that's your problem, not mine.

    ReplyDelete
  125. I would like to simply point out that the "right wing division squad" holds the "Minority View" in America today.. and that the vast "MAJORITY" of Americans do not agree with their rhetoric.. which proves that the Division by Hate Squad... only preaches to the Cultists anyway.

    Perhaps you should point this out to them.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Anonymous11:49 AM

    From anonymous at 10:19AM:

    "I never used the term "systematic." I do believe, however, that under certain (relatively rare) circumstances the infliction of "physical and mental harm," is acceptable as long as it is not life-threatening, and when it is undertaken to prevent the imminent loss of life."

    Let me be clear: 'torture' is the systematic, deliberate, and sustained activity that inflicts *both* physical and mental harm upon a person or persons.

    The impetus of such harm can be anything from simple boredom to compelling (at the time anyway) national security concerns. Does that excuse it or make it an acceptable recourse?

    In my firm opinion: NO!

    "Yes, your definition of torture is broader than that under US law, but I think you know what I meant, i.e., that your defintion of what is permissable is narrower than under current US law."

    At one time, lynching was permissable under US law, as were bans on interracial marriage, as was the deliberate exclusion of minorities from voting, as were a host of other activities we would today find unacceptable.

    I'm trying to impart that, regardless of what the law finds 'acceptable' at this time does not change the fact torture (regardless of circumstances) is an unacceptable practice that no civilized society should either tolerate nor advocate.

    "Oh please. The issue is important, and there are two sides in the debate. You are on the minority side, as you are on most issues. This may be frustrating to you, but that's your problem, not mine."

    My frustration is trying to hold a civilized discussion on this issue with those who must have ransomed their humanity away some time ago. But then, that's your problem, not mine.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Anonymous12:00 PM

    Torturonymous said...."Oh please. The issue is important, and there are two sides in the debate. You are on the minority side, as you are on most issues. This may be frustrating to you, but that's your problem, not mine."

    Not since the Spanish Inquisition, dipshit! What planet are you from?

    ReplyDelete
  128. Anonymous12:05 PM

    Anonymous said...
    Anonymous 6:54 - I notice that you don't provide any actual cites, or a link to the party platform. I wonder why that is?

    Baby selling. Hah.


    If you can't find the 2004 Libertarian party platform on your own, and read it for yourself, what kind of rugged individualist are you. Maybe, like most libertarians, you have no idea what it's all about. As David Friedman likes to say, there are probably two libertarians somewhere who agree on something, but he's not one of them. Baby selling is in there, pal. Is that "extreme" enough for you?

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous12:13 PM

    EWO...And then again, maybe not. I prefer a little humor mixed in with the doubletalk, a la Al Kelly.
    Thanks anyway.


    You should have said so.

    This is what you want.

    It's not Esalen.

    ReplyDelete
  130. Anonymous12:14 PM

    Let me be clear: 'torture' is the systematic, deliberate, and sustained activity that inflicts *both* physical and mental harm upon a person or persons.

    Simple incarceration inflicts mental harm upon a person. Your definition is impossibly broad, and thus meaningless.

    At one time, lynching was permissable under US law, as were bans on interracial marriage, as was the deliberate exclusion of minorities from voting, as were a host of other activities we would today find unacceptable.

    Lynching was never permissable under US law.

    Let's entertain a hypothetical here. A man is captured who is part of a team preparing to launch a cynanide gas attack on the New York subway system. During his interrogation he is is forced to stand, he is not permitted to sleep, and he is placed in a very cold room. He finally breaks and reveals who his confederates are. They are captured.

    Was the man "tortured"?

    My frustration is trying to hold a civilized discussion on this issue with those who must have ransomed their humanity away some time ago.

    The same charge can be made against you. What kind of person would fail to prevent thousands of innocent deaths by not allowing a suspect to be interrogated while standing up in a cold room?

    ReplyDelete
  131. Anonymous12:20 PM

    I keep forgetting EWO is a Randian who thinks capitalism is a Holy form of government enshrined in cosmic law. This puts him squarely in a small slice of the trailer trash pie of the Fox News audience.

    ReplyDelete
  132. ivan carter:

    and of course, sure eno, he was wrong. it was 5 - 4 and you are right, there were four dissents. but the 7 -2 part (dont feel like going and reading it now) seemed on 5 sec's glance to be a procedural issue, and not substantive, as 4 dissenters were clear they would not have stayed the florida recound as per the fla supreme court's ruling.

    There was no 7-2 part. It was lies by the cowardly majority trying to pretend there was some kind of consensus for their outrageous interference trying to save their butt-boy Dubya's a$$ (i.e., O'Connor's complaint the night of the election when it looked like Gore would win: "This is terrible", according to reports).

    But a dispassionate look at what they did shows they're malignly dishonest in other ways as well: This is a signal and outstanding case because they 'found' an "equal protection violation", yet their "remedy" not only did nothing to cure this supposed violation, but in fact mandated that it would in fact occur (none of the "disputed" manual counts were undone; rather the partial manual counts were left in place ... one can hardly think of more obvious "different standards" than machien tabulations in one county and manual tabulations in the next). Breyer pointed this out, as did Souter.

    The "fix" was in. And we're paying the price.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anonymous12:36 PM

    Torturonymous... What kind of person would fail to prevent thousands of innocent deaths by not allowing a suspect to be interrogated while standing up in a cold room?

    A trained professional interested in obtaining reliable and valuable information. From the official website of The Marine Corps Interrogator Translator Teams Association:

    THE USE OF "TORTURE" IN INTERROGATION

    I'm sure Yankee meant hanging was a permissible form of execution under federal law. It would not surprise me if local laws permitted lynching in some areas. There was no federal statute against murder until the 1980s.

    "The barbarous custom of having men beaten who are suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this way of interrogating men, by putting them to torture, produces nothing worthwhile."

    Napoleon to Berthier 11 Nov 1798, Corres., V, no. 3606 p. 128 quoted in - Napoleon on the Art of War

    ReplyDelete
  134. shooter242 is clueless:

    For Ivan Carter

    Here is the corrected link to the abstract.

    No matter how you slice it, the opinion is registered as being 7-2 regarding constitutionality. You may not think that's important, but most do.

    Oyez.org is hardly a definitive site (much less is it the official U.S. Supreme Court site). Here's what they say about themselves:

    About Oyez

    Origins

    The OYEZ Project began in the friendly confines of Wrigley Field in the late 1980s as the Chicago Cubs continued to break the hearts of its many diehard fans. It was during one such game that the idea of creating a multimedia-based Supreme Court experience took root. The first iteration was a series of complex HyperCard stacks built on a baseball-card metaphor. The "Hitchhiker's Guide to the U.S. Supreme Court" demonstrated the power of multimedia integration with serious academic content. Dozens of students worked on various versions before the development of a web-based version.


    Shooter has nary a clue.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  135. Anonymous12:45 PM

    Further remarks from the trained professionals themselves:

    Intelligence

    Truth Extraction


    A classic text on interrogating enemy captives offers a counterintuitive lesson on the best way to get information
    by Stephen Budiansky

    Six months before the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison broke into public view, a small and fairly obscure private association of United States Marine Corps members posted on its Web site a document on how to get enemy POWs to talk.

    The document described a situation very similar to the one the United States faces in the insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan: a fanatical and implacable enemy, intense pressure to achieve quick results, a brutal war in which the old rules no longer seem to apply.

    Marine Major Sherwood F. Moran, the report's author, noted that despite the complexities and difficulties of dealing with an enemy from such a hostile and alien culture, some American interrogators consistently managed to extract useful information from prisoners. The successful interrogators all had one thing in common in the way they approached their subjects. They were nice to them.

    Moran was writing in 1943, and he was describing his own, already legendary methods of interrogating Japanese prisoners of war. More than a half century later his report remains something of a cult classic for military interrogators. The Marine Corps Interrogator Translator Teams Association (MCITTA), a group of active-duty and retired Marine intelligence personnel, calls Moran's report one of the "timeless documents" in the field and says it has long been "a standard read" for insiders. (A book about the Luftwaffe interrogator Hans Joachim Scharff, whose charm, easygoing manner, and perfect English beguiled many a captured Allied airman into revealing critical information, is another frequently cited classic in the field.) An MCITTA member says the group decided to post Moran's report online in July of 2003, because "many others wanted to read it" and because the original document, in the Marine Corps archives, was in such poor shape that the photocopies in circulation were difficult to decipher. He denies that current events had anything to do with either the decision to post the document or the increased interest in it.

    But it is hard to imagine a historical lesson that would constitute a more direct reproach to recent U.S. policies on prisoner interrogation. And there is no doubt that Moran's report owes more than a little of its recent celebrity to the widespread disdain among experienced military interrogators for what took place at Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo when ill-trained personnel were ordered to "soften up" prisoners. Since the prison scandals broke, many old hands in the business have pointed out that abusing prisoners is not simply illegal and immoral; it is also remarkably ineffective...


    Even the Israelis don't do it. It doesn't work.

    ReplyDelete
  136. David Byron:

    All 7 Republican judges voted to hear the case but apparently two of them baulked at commiting actual treason.

    Oh, BS. All it takes is 4 for cert, but in this case they got 5 (see here for the cert grant, with four justices dissenting from the stay/grant of cert). The 5 were necessary to issue the controversial stay. All four dissenters remained of the opinion that the case shouldn't have even been heard.

    Let's stick to the facts, please.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  137. Anonymous1:27 PM

    From anonymous at 12:14PM:

    "The same charge can be made against you. What kind of person would fail to prevent thousands of innocent deaths by not allowing a suspect to be interrogated while standing up in a cold room?"

    I'm not the one advocating torture, then engaging in a tortured line of reasoning to justify it.

    You and I and those so charged of late are effectively amateurs in interrogation; the professionals (as amply documented by the other annonymous) appear to agree torture doen't work on a practical or ethical level.

    You're simply demonstrating what the post was originally about: the connundrum facing those of us who would stand opposed to this sort of extremism.

    ReplyDelete
  138. I concur, libertarians are extremists. Frankly, their world vision is a nightmare to anyone who isn't rich, strong and healthy.

    It's an ideology that appeals to those ignorant of its necessary and unavoidable consequences becuase it removes all the least desirable and enjoyable facets of government (like taxation) but neglects to mention it removes all the best and most desirable features of government (the things taxes pay for).

    It's the ideology of angry young teenagers who've just gotten their first paycheque, and are outraged at the amount removed for taxes. Never mind that those taxes provided the education they recieved which made them able to read the paycheque, the safe and stable society they grew up in, and made sure the job they are working in was reasonably safe and paid them fairly for thier work - "Damn government! What has it ever done for me?" they lament.

    I don't spend a lot of time speaking against libertarianism, but that's because as a party and a movement it has very little traction. However, many of its ideas do seep into the mainstream. Perhaps ignoring it is a mistake.

    Being a (normal) republican is actually a lot less extremist than being a libertarian. Republicans do believe in some role for government, not much, but some.

    And what does his being from the Mid-west have to do with it? No extremists can come from the mid-west?

    Doctor Biobrain had a great critique of libertarians earlier this year.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Anonymous9:59 PM

    These right-wing nutbags are

    A. cynical rich asshole shills
    B. Whackjobs who are toady stooges for A

    So, how to defeat them? Keep the slow boil burning until the whackjobs crack.

    Ancient Rome had a similar problem. Society gets to a point where we individuals lose our self-sovereignty and start to become enslaved to the rich. The masses then start to become impoverished and pissed off. So what do the rich do? They redirct our anger against ourselves using racism, wars, lies, demagogery, etc. They want us to knock each other's brains out while they cash in on it. That where the extremists come in. They don't get that they are being used. Angry and stupid they are manipulated into become Jackboots for the rich.

    The looney far-right fringe is not the heart of America. Facist freaks like Ann Coulter are on the way out. Her gig is not funny anymore. Americans are waking up and are not happy campers.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous12:48 AM

    anon:

    I keep forgetting EWO is a Randian

    Your bad. Tsk tsk. Memory Counts.

    I, however, never forget that with your I.Q., you have as much chance of understanding Ayn Rand as a camel has of going through the eye of a needle.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Anonymous7:23 PM

    Torturonymous said...."Oh please. The issue is important, and there are two sides in the debate. You are on the minority side, as you are on most issues. This may be frustrating to you, but that's your problem, not mine."

    Ah yes, the appeal to majority. After all, 10 million Frenchmen can't be wrong, except that we said they were, because they disagreed with us that not fighting Iraq was in their interest (they thought it wasn't, and so refrained). We said the same thing when a majority of Spaniards voted in a gov't which was going to remove them from Iraq (and the idea that the Spaniards were the target of the Madrid bombings is laughable. The polls before the election made it clear the government was going to be turned out, IMO the target of the Madrid bombers was the populace of the US, and the aim was to keep Bush in power, but I digress).

    A majority thought slavery was legal, that people from China and Japan ought never be allowed to become citizens, that inequality was acceptable.

    They were all wrong. It just means they were wrong together.

    Speaking as a professional (with almost 14 years as an Army interrogator, with teaching experience and time in Iraq, friends who went to Gitmo and Afghanistan as well as interaction with my counterparts from Britain and elsewhere; added to more reading on the subject than I can recall, it being a topic of no small interest to me), torture doesn't work.

    The amount of bad iformation one gets swamps the good, and makes the good look less true.

    The "Buried Baby" and the "Ticking Bombs" are myths, games of "What If?" and about as useful as asking if one would do some horrid thing like drown the baby Zororaster to prevent the Crusades. From a specious premise one can arrange for any answer one wants to come to.

    If you want more details of my thinking on the matter google my name, and add the word torture to the search.

    ReplyDelete