Tuesday, July 18, 2006

Various thoughts on the Israeli/"our" war

(1) As others have noted, it can be dispiriting and tiresome to debate Middle Eastern conflicts between Israel and its enemies because extremists almost always tend to dominate the discussions. Israel is either the angelic victim surrounded by pure evil, or else is pure evil itself sadistically inflicting violence on its poor, angelic neighbors. In general, those who become most knowledgeable about these conflicts do so because they zealously believe in one Manichean view or the other, rendering it quite difficult to sort out competing claims.

That is why I find Juan Cole one of the more balanced commentators on the Middle East. Although he's routinely accused of being some sort of Israel-hater -- and he certainly does fall on the side of criticizing Israel more so than those of its enemies -- he is one of the few commentators who both criticizes and defends each side at various times, raising his credibility level, at least in my view, considerably (which is not to say that I don't often find grounds for disagreeing with his views). After quoting at length a couple of days ago from a speech by Hezbollah's leader, Hasan Nasrallah, Cole said this (emphasis in original):

[Nasrallah] said people were always putting down the Arabs and saying they could not accomplish anything, but, he said, look at the Israeli warship in flames. That was an Arab accomplishment.

Uh, wouldn't an Arab accomplishment be more like, oh, inventing something or building up something nice? Destroying things and killing people is not an accomplishment.

I watched in horror as this maniacal speech unfolded in which Nasrallah actually threatened the Israelis with releasing chemical gas from local factories on civilians in Haifa. Despite fighting them for all those years, he clearly does not understand the Israelis' psyche or the trauma of the Holocaust. A threat like that. The Israelis don't like being caught in a quagmire any more than the next person, which is why Nasrallah could get them to leave southern Lebanon. But his victory appears to have given him megalomania, and he has now gone too far.

Hizbullah's attacks on Israeli civilians are war crimes. The killing of the civilians in Haifa at the train station was a war crime. And threatening to release chemicals from factories on civilian populations is probably a war crime in itself, much less the doing of it.

Obviously, I do not accept that Hizbullah's actions justify the wholesale indiscriminate destruction and slaughter in which the Israelis have been engaged against the Lebanese in general. But they do have every right to defend themselves against Nasrallah and his mad bombers.

What pro-Israeli commentators on the right ever offer such balanced assessments? They will criticize Israel for making strategic mistakes, or for being insufficiently hard-line (just as they are willing to criticize Bush for being strategically misguided or insufficiently hard-line), but never for engaging in wrongful behavior. In their view, balance is a sign of moral depravity, and Cole -- who frequently condemns what is allegedly "his side" -- is hated not because he's too biased, but because he isn't biased enough.

(2) During the protests several months ago against proposed anti-immigration legislation, there were all sorts of angry denunciations over the protestors' waving of Mexican flags. As I noted at the time, there are numerous self-identified ethnic or nationalistic groups within the U.S. who routinely wave the flags of other countries at events, parades and protests -- including Israel, Ireland, Italy -- and yet that does not invoke the same objections. To the contrary, many of the same individuals who condemn the waving of Mexican flags praise and celebrate the waving of these other flags.

Yesterday, in the middle of New York City, protestors clogged the streets of Manhattan for a large rally called the "Stand with Israel" rally. As the photographs taken by one of the attendees reflect, there seem to have been many Israeli flags but, at least in these photographs, no American flags. Despite that, one of the most vocal commentators who lambasted the waving of Mexican flags on U.S. soil lauded the pro-Israeli protest.

With the immigration protests, some criticized the waving of Mexican flags on strategic grounds -- isn't it dumb of the protestors, they argued, to signal that their allegiance is to Mexico rather than to the U.S. Shouldn't they therefore be waiving U.S. flags? As Mickey Kaus put it (emphasis in original): "flaunting allegiance to a neighboring country was not a good way to make most Americans want to let in more people who share your attachment!"

Shouldn't the same thing be said about the pro-Israeli protestors yesterday? If Americans are going to be persuaded to join this war, it ought to be because doing so is in the interests of the United States, not of Israel. Wouldn't it make more sense, then, to wave American flags in order to illustrate the point that intervention is in America's interests, rather than waving the flag of another country in order to persuade Americans to enter a war on its behalf? And what, exactly, is the difference -- moral or etiquette-based or otherwise -- between the heinous act of waving Mexican flags and the inspiring act of waving Israelis flags, both on U.S. soil?

(3) One of the things I dislike about those who venerate U.N. Resolutions and international law is that it always seems so selectively emphasized by whoever is wielding them. Whatever else one wants to say about Israel -- meaning, leave aside the long list of alleged sins -- it is simply the case that there is a U.N. Resolution, 1559 (.pdf), which calls for the Lebanese government to exert full control over all of its territory, and independently, for the disbandment of Lebanese militias, including Hezbollah.

Neither the Lebanese Government nor Hezbollah are in compliance with that Resolution. And since its enactment, Hezbollah has used its position near the Israeli border to fly drones over Israel and to shoot rockets into Israel (before the outbreak of the current conflict). Shouldn't those on the Left who believe in the supremacy of international law and U.N. resolutions be unequivocally condemning Hezbollah, which ought to be disbanded if U.N. Resolutions are complied with and who, by definition, are guilty of war crimes for engaging in these acts in violation of those resolutions? Regardless of the acts of Israel, how can anyone who claims to be a believer in the supremacy of international law in any way justify the acts, or even the existence, of Hezbollah?

(4) Add Andy McCarthy to the list of commentators overtly advocating immediate intervention in this war and waging war on a long list of enemies, including Syria and Iraq. I saw some blogger somewhere mocking my claim the other day that National Review is a neoconservative publication. With McCarthy, Michael Ledeen, Victor Davis Hanson, John Podhoretz, Jonah Goldberg and a whole host of others who blindly and unfailingly defend Israel and who believe the Bush administration needs to wage more war as quickly as possible in the Middle East, it's hard to see how any serious person could contest that view.

Speaking of neoconservativsm, George Will excoriates it today as, among other things, a "spectacularly misnamed radicalism," and asks: "And if Bashar Assad's regime does not fall after the Weekly Standard's hoped-for third war, with Iran, does the magazine hope for a fourth?"

192 comments:

  1. As others have noted, it can be dispiriting and tiresome to debate Middle Eastern conflicts bewteen Israel and its enemies because extremists almost always tend to dominate the discussions.

    Well, we lost one at the end of the last thread. Maybe now the grownups can talk.

    Cheers,

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  2. Glenn,

    Thanks for the evenhandedness!

    2 wrongs still don't make a right!

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  3. Glenn,

    While I was attending NYU for my undergrad and working in local radio (I'm orignally from California) I had my first lesson in dealing with the so called "peace process."

    Being from CA and not really in tune with the conflict it was a jarring experience. As I got to know the various professional pundits that are the usual suspects that one calls as a producer to talk about the middle east conflict, I couldn't help but notice that it was all extreme to me. I found the subject fascinating but, coming from it from a perspective of absolute neutrality and ignorance it was practically impossible to feel that I had learned anything from the various guests we would book to talk about the peace process.

    Personally, I want the US out of the ME. The way to do that I think is to stop funding them all. First step I would take is to get off foreign oil. As much as Friedman is critizised, I have to say I agree with him, we are funding all sides of this war. At the pump and with military and humanitarian aid.

    That is a fundamental change that would really do something that does not involve us killing people to keep power. Simplistic but effective in the long run. The alternative is what we have now.

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  4. Anonymous1:02 PM

    A strategist on the radio yesterday said that, in a head-to-head war, Hezbollah could defeat the Lebanese army, that they are the 3rd or 4th most powerful military force in the region.

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  5. prunes:

    A strategist on the radio yesterday said that, in a head-to-head war, Hezbollah could defeat the Lebanese army, that they are the 3rd or 4th most powerful military force in the region.

    Can't have helped that the IDF seems to have targeted (some) Lebanese Army facilities (but I'm not clear on the specifics; someone enlighten me if I'm wrong).

    Cheers,

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  6. Anonymous1:06 PM

    I don't want to seem petty for jumping on a simple typo, but I have to say that I actually like the idea of waiving flags quite a bit. I think of someone who is willing to put fairness and justice above blind nationalism. Waive the flag!

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  7. Glenn:

    On a higher level, yes, you're right: We'd all (I hope) prefer a world of stable (and answerable) gummints that were able to lay down some semblance of a "rule of law" (and as a further priority, but one dependent on achieving that first), a "rule of law" with certain minimal standards for human and civil rights.

    Hizbollah exists in part due to the power vacuum (and its re-emergence may have a bit to do with the ouster of Syrian troops, for better or for worse). It also exists because of long animosities, nay, even hatreds, going back quite some time. Understanding its existence is (as I'm sure you'll agree) hardly the same as justifying it or supporting its actions. Understanding it may help in trying to find a road out of the mess over there. Our first efforts may not be precisely what we'd want to see in the end in a perfect world, but progress is often only a step at a time. Dealing with Hizbollah in the short run may include talking to them, if only on the way to achieving results that will, in the end, hopefully make them irrelevant.

    Cheers,

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  8. I don't want to seem petty for jumping on a simple typo, but I have to say that I actually like the idea of waiving flags quite a bit. I think of someone who is willing to put fairness and justice above blind nationalism. Waive the flag!

    I honestly fixed that before seeing your comment. Ten years of litigation will indelibly implant the verb "waive" into one's brain.

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  9. Hizbollah exists in part due to the power vacuum (and its re-emergence may have a bit to do with the ouster of Syrian troops, for better or for worse). It also exists because of long animosities, nay, even hatreds, going back quite some time. Understanding its existence is (as I'm sure you'll agree) hardly the same as justifying it or supporting its actions. Understanding it may help in trying to find a road out of the mess over there. Our first efforts may not be precisely what we'd want to see in the end in a perfect world, but progress is often only a step at a time. Dealing with Hizbollah in the short run may include talking to them, if only on the way to achieving results that will, in the end, hopefully make them irrelevant.

    That all makes some sense. But saying this puts to the side the supremacy of U.N. Resolutions, which is really my point - most people who laud international law and U.N. resolutions do so as a selective weapon, a tactic, rather than some unyielding principle.

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  10. Let us be frank about who is committing war crimes.
    "Atrocities in the Promised Land"

    Israel is using white phosphorous weapons

    I feel hopeless. What to do? There seems to be nothing we can say that will make the corporate media take notice of civilian deaths in Lebanon. Are Israeli deaths the only ones that matter? What is going on here?

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  11. Anonymous1:33 PM

    Ewwww!!! You linked to Malkin's blog.

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  12. Let us be frank about who is committing war crimes.

    Is it a "war crime" to shoot rockets into Israeli civilian sites? How do you feel about the ongoing existence of Hezbollah even though U.N. Resolutions call for its disbandment? Why are you interested in "war crimes" only by one side to the conflict, but not the other?

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  13. Anonymous1:39 PM

    Arne:

    "Yeah, I got theories too, theories fer sale. No, you can't open the box before you buy...."

    Once again you confuse me, but I am (or was) a student of IR and IO, so theorizing on how countries interact is obviously something you can't do on this blog. (unless your vile about it)

    "Oh, yeah, that's right! He was killed by the ERW nutzos there.... You know, the kind that have been in general ascendancy in the last decade in the Israeli gummint..."

    You mean like the current Defense Minister? The head of a trade union, born in Morocco, Who for decades was considered a secular socialist... He is not a "nutzo", at least in direction you declare

    "We can't act as a peace broker there when we are so strongly identified with one side. "

    Yes, but I dont think the current admin could ever act as a peace broker in the ME.


    A few more thoughts before i go for the day:

    WT:
    "I don't think there's a military solution short of genocide. I suspect many Israelis would agree."

    Correct, I think Israel is just searching to rebuild its deterent. (whereas a deterent power does not work with bin laden, it does work to some degree with hamas and hizbollah who are politically engaged, and have stakeholders in the form of international financing, and citizens who live under thier control.) If there was a way to build the deterent without this, I think Israel would support it. (the Nuke doesn't work for reasons already discussed. This is short term thinking, and when you've been in a war of survival on and off for 50+ years, it is time to do someting else, BUT you have to survive in order to be able to do something else. If anyone comes up with something let me know...

    One more thing, its tough for me to be around my "leftist" friends (in the real world, not the blog world), while having such support for Israel. I know must are not anti-semetic, but when some resort to discussing the "world wide zionist conspiracy" or the jews who control american foriegn policy, it makes me squirm. I know if the situation was different, and somehow israel was not fighting its mieghbors, these same people would be pushing for a change in the the Arab countries. So that they would be more like Israel. Israelis have rights, and privliges and can vote and women can be elected to PM, and TA is a gay friendly city, and Haifa is where arabs and jews and everyone lives together, and the country has even outlawed torture (unlike the US. These are all examples of what my friends would be fighting for in places like egypt and syria where bloggers are jailed and honor killings are not rare.

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  14. Anonymous1:45 PM

    Glenn,

    "rather than waving the flag of another country in order to persuade Americans to enter a war on its behalf?"

    I do enjoy reading your comparison, but I think it is a little different. (note: I helped organize one of the rallys where people were waviing mexican flags, just as I have been to many where people were waiving israeli flags.

    I dont think those outside the UN were seeking the American involvement. They were simply stating, us, here in the USA, we are standing with you.

    I think its important to seperate far right american talking heads, from actual israelis, and other supports of Israel (who are often critical of the country).

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  15. The world will be a better place when people learn that binary logic is best applied to the realm of mathematics rather than human affairs.

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  16. Off topic, but:

    Bush blocked the internal DoJ hearings into warrantless wiretapping, according to Gonzalez.

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  17. Anonymous1:59 PM

    I just dont get, why many reasonable people, cant admit, that both sides have committed war crimes,for decades.

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  18. Anonymous2:07 PM

    To follow up on what prunes said, I don't think that Lebanon's government really has any control over Hezbollah as I understand it. Any influence it might have had left with the Syrians. Just prior to this action the Lebanese government was weak and barely had control over the country. Which really brings us to the central question that's being overlooked: how are these operations supposed to help the Israelis get their troops back? That was after all the primary justification for all of this, right? Bombing bridges, civilians, commercial airports, and Lebanese Army positions really doesn't seem to advance that goal, and probably hurts it. I think that's one of the reasons for people's skeptisism regarding Israel's actions. Not that this justifies attacks on Israeli civilians, but when you kick the hornet's nest you should expect to be stung.

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  19. Anonymous2:08 PM

    As to number 2, I feel as if the discourse has come down to cave man level. America good. Israel good. Arab nations bad. Mexico bad.

    As to number 3, I agree. I am all for the removal of Hezebollah. I have a friend with family in Lebanon, and they feel the same. However, they don't understand why they must suffer for Hezebollah's crimes. I'm sure they wouldn't understand that there are people in the US who would just as soon see them and their families and their entire region, for that matter, vaporized.

    In addition, I have a problem with the pro-Israel rhetoric insofar as it labels Israel as some sort of weak "victim" which has never engaged in any untoward behavior. That is factually false. I also restent the fact that a uber right winger would call me an anti-semetic for saying that, when in fact, I have several Jewish family members and am the product of a Jewish great-great grandmother.

    Those of us interested in facts end up pointing out Israel's "wrongs" (for lack of a better word) just to set the record straight. There's less need to point out Hezebollah's wrongs, because those who believe Israel can do no wrong already consider Hezebollah to be one of the world's biggest threats.

    Like someone said yesterday (maybe it was you Glenn?), there's little need to discuss the evils of terrorism ad nauseum, because most of us agree on that and it needs little discussion.

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  20. Anonymous2:09 PM

    Glenn, you are absolutely right on all points, as is Juan Cole, who is not only a scholar, despite the insults on a previous thread, but a gentleman as well.

    My difficulty is that true allegiance to international law, even to the concept of international law, is thin on the ground in all modern countries.

    Savagery lies at the heart of this conflict, and human nature in extremis. While I applaud and support your steady efforts to put the genie back in the bottle, I must also confess that despair nibbles at me while I'm at it. That said, it's nice to have such tireless allies, and I don't mean people with AK-47's.

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  21. On Lebanon not abiding by UN Resolution 1551: Somewhere amid the flurry of commentators on the invasion, yesterday I head someone mention this. This person said it is somewhat hypocritical of the US or others to accuse Lebanon of failing to abide by this resolution.

    By including Hezbollah in the government, they have gone some way in doing this. Yet, unless Lebanon courts another civil war, they do not have the manpower to disarm Hezbollah, nor the leverage to do so.

    Thanks to Bushco, Syria was knocked out of the picture--and it was Syria that policed Hezbollah and restrained its more extremist elements. Of course, the US could have done something, but it was bogged down in Iraq and is so now.

    So, the Bush plan to democratize the Mideast is seen to be a paper tiger--when people do democratically elect governments such as Hamas and Hezbollah, the new governments are attacked and their governing abilities severely curtailed.

    There's a solution to the Mideast problem, one that would make most everybody but those in power happy. Helena Cobban writes about this today:

    (1) The vast majority of the peoples of Lebanon, Israel, and Palestine all want exactly the same thing-- which is to be able to live their lives in safe and flourishing communities that are not plagued by war. Olmert's speech in the Knesset was long on expressing this with regard to the Israeli people but absolutely devoid of any recognition that this is exactly what the majority of the Lebanese and Palestinian peoples also want; and

    (2) The outlines of how such a peace might be drawn up are fairly well known by now: Israeli withdrawals from just about all of the lands seized by military force from their neighbors in 1967, and the establishment of full relations of normal peace between Israel and all its neighbors. If such a peace were indeed built, the support for militant irredentists in the Palestinian, Lebanese, Jewish-Israeli, and other communities of the region would go down to very low and absolutely manageable levels... Most people would be too busy celebrating and building upon the newfound regional peace.


    That pre-1967 border issue alludes to the only international document that Israel has signed. But it has never abided by its signature to return behind those internationally accepted boundaries. Instead it has steadily expanded its territory, as well as perpetrated immense harm and suffering to generally defenseless others like the Palestinians who have despairingly retaliated using the only means available, as horrendous as those are; a means, by the way, that Israel’s own founders and former Prime Minister employed to establish the state of Israel. (I speak of terrorism and Menahem Begin’s role in an act of terrorism that some consider the inception of the modern terrorist methodology for gaining political recognition).

    PS Since we are counting UN resolutions that Lebanon has not fulfilled, how many UN resolutions has Israel simply disregarded? Let us not mention the many times that Israeli actions have gone to the Security Council but have never been condemned because of US vetoes.

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  22. Anonymous2:14 PM

    Richmond said...
    Bombing bridges, civilians, commercial airports, and Lebanese Army positions really doesn't seem to advance that goal, and probably hurts it. I think that's one of the reasons for people's skeptisism regarding Israel's actions. Not that this justifies attacks on Israeli civilians, but when you kick the hornet's nest you should expect to be stung.

    If you think about it from a more practical and grounded standpoint, it's pretty clear what the IDF is doing. Hamas and Hizb'allah are not abstractions to Israel. They know their soldiers are out there somewhere and do not want them moved to Iran.

    Thus the bombing of the airports. They are sealing off Lebanon. They will have troops in Lebanon by the end of the week, and only the release of the soldiers can stop that. Probably not even that—I expect they have concrete plans for eliminating Nasrallah and Hizb'allah regardless.

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  23. The one good read on a *how-we-got-from-there-to-here* is "One Palestine Complete" by Tom Segev.

    Reading the history one begins to see how both side have contributed to this conflict...how both seek to twist things to their advantage...and both are culpable in almost every incident.

    Locked in a fatal struggle...and hard to see a resolution these parties would be happy with at this date in time.

    *sigh*

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  24. Glenn (responding to my comments):

    That all makes some sense. But saying this puts to the side the supremacy of U.N. Resolutions, which is really my point - most people who laud international law and U.N. resolutions do so as a selective weapon, a tactic, rather than some unyielding principle.

    I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was extending it to the more general principles of "rule of law" (whether international or purely domestic), and then rambling on incoherently. Forgive me.

    Yes, people do tend to choose the "laws" they'd like to keep (or obey). Anything familiar with that, my Constitutional scholar friend?

    Cheers,

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  25. Anonymous2:33 PM

    on your third point, Glen, you must realize that Israel has flouted dozens of UN resolutions, and the US had vetoed as many, so it is illogical to say that leftists overlook the one UN resolution that applies to Hizbollah. Hisbollah would be happy to disband, I believe, if Israel complied with the resolution that required it to withdraw to its pre 1967 borders. Logically, and chronologically, I think you can say Hizollah did not comply because Israel had already not complied.

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  26. Anonymous2:35 PM

    Arne:

    As in idolizing the second amendment, while despising the fourth?

    Not to worry. Glenn being Glenn, I expect we haven't heard the last about the rule of law entre nous.

    That's a good thing.

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  27. Anonymous2:36 PM

    Concerning calling on the Lebanese government to disarm and disband Hezbollah, it should be noted that Israel failed to do that in 18 years of occupation, and they were in a far better position to do so than the struggling, weak Lebanese government.

    Just sayin'—it's much easier said than done.

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  28. on your third point, Glen, you must realize that Israel has flouted dozens of UN resolutions, and the US had vetoed as many, so it is illogical to say that leftists overlook the one UN resolution that applies to Hizbollah. Hisbollah would be happy to disband, I believe, if Israel complied with the resolution that required it to withdraw to its pre 1967 borders. Logically, and chronologically, I think you can say Hizollah did not comply because Israel had already not complied.

    Resolutions which are vetoed by one of the five permanent members have no more validity or force than a U.S. law which is veoted by the President - which is to say, it has no validity at all. So those are irrelevant.

    What you are doing, quite transparently, is justifying Hezbollah's violations of UN resolutions. That precludes you from having any intellectual or moral authority when you invoke precepts of international law to criticize Israel, the U.S. or whatever other countries you want to condemn using a system of laws that you don't really believe in.

    It is (as Arne alluded to) just like what Bush followers do - if you want to enforce some laws while justifying the violation of others, you cannot simultaneously hold yourself out as a proponent of the rule of law - at least you can't with any persuasiveness or consistency.

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  29. Anonymous2:38 PM

    Jesus. Your point about the flags is as blatantly disengenous as is your misuse of Kaus' point. Kaus' point, the one he makes repeatedly, is that the Mexican flag is qualitatively different than other foreign flags because it is a neighboring country with historical claims on the U.S. mainland; where the immigrants maintain ties to it and leave their families there; and where there is little assimilation because of the sheer size of this particular immigrant group. Thus, it might be precipitating a bi-national crisis down the road. And you know all of this, Glenn. Disappointing. You really never miss an opportunity to shine the light on the waving of Israeli flags. That's what this is all about for you. Intellectual honesty be damned.

    Also, three cheers for Juan Cole!!! After all, condemning Hezbollah is such a brave, brave act. The man's moral clarity and even-handedness cannot be called into question. What's next? Condemning Nazi Germany?

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  30. Anonymous2:39 PM

    Israel is targetting places all over Lebanon, including electrical generation and transportation hubs, and I'm pretty sure Hizbollah owns neither power plants nor airports.

    Further, collective punishment is a violation of the Geneva convention, whereas the Lebanese government's failure to pit itself against (as noted here) the 4th or 5th largest military in the region in the first two years of it's independent existence is only a potential breach of 1559. The Lebanese government could convincingly argue that it is unreasonable to demand they disarm a group as well-organized, financed, and entrenched as Hizbollah in only two years.

    More importantly, however, 1559 does not include deadlines or punative actions for noncompliance. It does not "call" for the government to exhert control over it's territory--it actually "Supports the extension of the control of the Government of Lebanon over all Lebanese territory." The items referring to "foreign forces" and "the militas" are phrased as "calls," a distinction I will not believe is accidental.

    Lebanon may, indeed, be in breach of 1559 for failing to disarm Hizbollah, but that is up to the Security Council to decide, and the peacekeepers to implement, not the Knesset and IDF, respectively.

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  31. Anonymous2:39 PM

    Certainly, Juan Cole is knowledgeable. And good reading for anyone trying to understand what's going on with Lebanon, Syria, and Hezbollah, should go back a few weeks to the rising tensions in Palestine. Juan Cole wrote a nice article on July 11.

    Of course, the problems go back, and back, and back. Choose your resolution: hours, days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries. But for recent 2006 history, it's important to remember that a few short months ago, the democratic elections gave Hamas a very strong voice in Palestine government. For all the talk of American leaders wanting democracy to flourish in the middle east, they don't like it when free democratic elections produce governments that are not subordinate to US interests. So, the free elections produce the wrong outcome, the US withdraws support, which is needed for the Palestinian state to feed and police it's people. Of course, desparation and failure of the new government is inevitable, as well as the ability to control its radical population.

    As is known to specialists---and pointed out clearly in David Remnick's excellent and well researched article in the New Yorker in February (sorry people, you might have to go to the library and look at ink on paper to read that article)---Hamas won those elections not because they were extreme anti-israel, but because they were far more effective in getting schools open, community services working, helping people eat, build homes, get water, etc... Hamas became the de-facto people's party, not the fat-cats driving mercedes-benz skimming the cream from American finanancial support.

    But, once Hamas did obtain the power to improve significantly the lives of their people, just when they were in a position to determine better ways to allocate American dollars than on limo drivers and personal mini-armies, the money was pulled out. What chances they had were undermined by the Americans, who decided they just didn't like the way the elections turned out. Once undermined, with no money to feed people, and no money to pay police forces, the power to control the militant minority was lost, hell breaks loose and the self-fullfilling prophecy of failed self rule becomes reality.

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  32. Anonymous2:39 PM

    gg: "Why are you interested in "war crimes" only by one side to the conflict, but not the other?"

    I can answer this, for my own part.

    I am, of course, "interested in" (and object to) war crimes committed anywhere in the world, by anyone in the world (including Hezbollah, for example, when they fire rockets into marketplaces in Haifa, killing innocent civilians).

    But to the extent that I feel a special duty to vocalize my opposition to Israel's war crimes in, say, the occupied territories (the continued occupation of which is, in itself, a war crime), I feel it because my home nation, the United States, is the one that directly enables the war crimes. Israel's occupation of the territories could never have been effected and maintained without my nation's diplomatic support, and my nation's equipment, and especially my nation's money ($3B a year... by far the most we send to any other nation).

    True, the U.S. has other allies and trading partners who commmit atrocities (China, Russia, Uzbekistan, and Pakistan for starters). But none of the above nations need my nation's support in order to execute their crimes. Israel DOES need my nation's support in order to execute its crimes, and it gets it, and this saddles me, as a citizen of this nation, with a moral culpability that far outweighs my culpability when, say, Karimov boils a protester, or Musharraf cancels an election, or King Faud stones a homosexual, or Mubarak tortures an extremist.

    Israel's actions in Palestine (and, as of late, Lebanon) are, in fact, funded by the United States of America. This gives US citizens a special duty to act on this issue, or, at the very least, to publicly debate the issue and arrive at a fully-informed and reasoned conclusion on this issue. We Americans have failed at this duty.

    Patrick Meighan
    Venice, CA

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  33. Concerning calling on the Lebanese government to disarm and disband Hezbollah, it should be noted that Israel failed to do that in 18 years of occupation, and they were in a far better position to do so than the struggling, weak Lebanese government.

    Inability to enforce that resolution might very well excuse the Lebanese Government's failure to comply with that resolution, but it does not, in any way, justify or excuse the existence - let alone the actions - of Hezbollah.

    I'm not suggesting that you were implying it does, but I just want to keep those two separate points separate.

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  34. Why are you interested in "war crimes" only by one side to the conflict, but not the other?

    I am interested in seeing war crimes prosecuted against any and all perpetrators. But we cannot have a frank discussion unless we take a real survey of the history of the region. Which of these UN resolutions against Israel have been enforced?

    As you quoted Juan Cole-

    Obviously, I do not accept that Hizbullah's actions justify the wholesale indiscriminate destruction and slaughter in which the Israelis have been engaged against the Lebanese in general. But they do have every right to defend themselves against Nasrallah and his mad bombers.

    Of course Israel has the right to defend itself. But let's not forget who started this mess. A civilian family was killed on a beach in Gaza. Hamas then "kidnapped" an Israeli soldier in retaliation, (and I think you were one of the people pointing out that this is not an illegal action in a war zone) and the shelling of Gaza commenced, destroying infrastrucure such as hospitals and power stations, as well as the abduction of gov't officials.

    This destruction of infrastructure is happening in Lebanon as well. Over 200 civilians have been killed. White phosphorous weapons are being used. These crimes are happening now as opposed to the nutty rantings of Nasrallah. When or if they do commit such acts, they should be condemned in the strongest possible terms as well.

    As for Hezbollah-

    There are real issues here. Under UN Security Council Resolution 1559 - the same resolution that got the Syrian army out of Lebanon - the Shia Muslim Hizbollah should have been disarmed. They were not because, if the Lebanese Prime Minister, Fouad Siniora, had tried to do so, the Lebanese army would have had to fight them and the army would almost certainly broken apart because most Lebanese soldiers are Shia Muslims. We could see the restarting of the civil war in Lebanon - a fact which Nasrallah is cynically aware of - but attempts by Siniora and his cabinet colleagues to find a new role for Hizbollah, which has a minister in the government (he is Minister of Labour) foundered. And the greatest now is that the Lebanese government will collapse and be replaced by a pro-Syrian government which could re-invite the Syrians back into the country.

    From here

    Also of note from that article, by Robert Fisk:

    European politicians have talked about Israel's "disproportionate" response to Wednesday's capture of its soldiers. They are wrong. What I am now watching in Lebanon is an outrage. How can there be any excuse for the 73 dead Lebanese blown these past three days?

    The same applies, of course, to the four Israeli civilians killed by Hizbollah rockets. But - please note the exchange rate of Israeli civilian lives to Lebanese civilian lives now stands at 1 to more than 15. This does not include the two children who were atomised in their home in Dweir on Thursday and whose bodies cannot be found. Their six brothers and sisters were buried yesterday, along with their mother and father. Another "terrorist" target. So was a neighbouring family with five children who were also buried yesterday. Another "terrorist" target.

    Terrorist, terrorist, terrorist. There is something perverse about all this, the slaughter and massive destruction and the self-righteous, constant, cancerous use of the word "terrorist". No, let us not forget that the Hizbollah broke international law, crossed the Israeli border, killed three Israeli soldiers, captured two others and dragged them back through the border fence. It was an act of calculated ruthlessness that should never allow Hizbollah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, to grin so broadly ay his press conference. It has brought unparalleled tragedy to countless innocents in Lebanon. And of course, it has led Hizbollah to fire at least 170 Katyusha rockets into Israel.

    But what would happen if the powerless Lebanese government had actually unleashed air attacks across Israel the last time Israel's troops crossed into Lebanon? What if the Lebanese air force then killed 73 Israeli civilians in bombing raids in Ashkelon, Tel Aviv and Israeli West Jerusalem? What if a Lebanese fighter aircraft bombed Ben Gurion airport? What if a Lebanese plane destroyed 26 road bridges across Israel? Would it not be called "terrorism"? I rather think it would. But if Israel was the victim, it would also probably be Word War Three.

    Of course, Lebanon cannot attack Tel Aviv. Its air force comprises three ancient Hawker Hunters and an equally ancient fleet of Vietnam-era Huey helicopters. Syria, however, has missiles that can reach Tel Aviv. So Syria - which Israel rightly believes to be behind Wednesday's Hizbollah attack is not going to be bombed. It is Lebanon which must be punished.

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  35. You really never miss an opportunity to shine the light on the waving of Israeli flags. That's what this is all about for you. Intellectual honesty be damned.

    I've been blogging for 9 months and I think I've written a grand total of two posts on that topic - three at the most -- once when there was the uproar over the dirty, threatening Mexican flags, and now, the day after the Israeli rally.

    If my goal really is to "never miss an opportunity to shine the light on the waving of Israeli flags," I'm going an extremely poor job of that.

    Also, three cheers for Juan Cole!!! After all, condemning Hezbollah is such a brave, brave act.

    It will become reasonable to be this blase about even-handedness only once your blindly pro-Israeli neoconservative heroes exhibit even a small fraction of that objectivity. Until then, as tragic as it is, Cole's even-handedness in this context is both conspicuous and remarkable.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Anonymous2:45 PM

    TODAY: Peaceful Demos Around The World

    Peaceful Demonstrations to Stop the Violence TODAY:

    Washington, DC - 5-7pm at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., NW - in front of the White House.

    New York (Manhattan) - 4-6pm at UN headquarters First Ave between 42nd St. and 48th St.

    University of Berkeley campus - 12 - 2 PM at Sproul plaza

    Dearborn, MI - 5:00pm on Warren and Oakman

    Toronto, Canada - July 18, 2006 (7:00PM) at Dundas and Yonge (across from Easton Centre)

    Montreal, Canada - 5:00PM at PMDORCHESTER SQUARE, 1155 METCALFE

    Stuttgart, Germany - 6 PM at Schlossplatz in Stuttgart (downtown)

    Doha, Qatar - 8:30 PM at Lebanese School of Doha

    Abu Dhabi, UAE - 7:00PM in front of the Lebanese embassy Abu Dhabi

    Grenoble, France - 6 PM at Place Félix Poullat, Grenoble

    Athens, Greece - 7 PM In front of EVAGILISMOS Hospital

    Torino, Italy - 5:30PM at Piazza Castello

    London, UK - 9PM - 10.30PM on Parliament Sq. London

    Abu Dahbi, UAE - 6 PM in front of the Lebanese embassy in Abu Dhabi

    ReplyDelete
  37. Israel DOES need my nation's support in order to execute its crimes, and it gets it, and this saddles me, as a citizen of this nation, with a moral culpability that far outweighs my culpability when, say, Karimov boils a protester, or Musharraf cancels an election, or King Faud stones a homosexual, or Mubarak tortures an extremist.

    Actually, there is a good argument to make that neither the Governments of Egypt (which receives an extraordinary amount of American aid), nor the Government of Pakistan, nor the Saudi family -- not to mention the scores of emirites and monarchs of the smaller states - could sustain itself without American support. Many Arabs in that region certainly believe that, which is one of the principal causes of anti-American hostility.

    And yet the tyranny and evils of those regimes -- let alone those which are the enemies of Israel -- don't seem to provoke even a fraction of the protest which the Israeli democracy provokes from certain corners of the Left, and I don't accept as persuasive the claim that this is the case because so much American aid goes to Israel.

    That doesn't sound persuasive to me because (a) the same imbalance in criticism is heard among the European Left, which does not have this "aid" excuse; (b) I believe that very little would change in the way of one-sided anti-Israeli criticism even if all American aid were cut off tomorrow; and (c) plenty of countries to which we provide support engage in all sorts of bad acts without many anti-Israeli critics being particularly vocal about it, if they say anything about it at all.

    I think the difference is more ideological than anything else- Israel is a militarized and largely right-wing country, aligned with the U.S. against numerous weaker countries. Many on the left view it with natural hostility for that reason more than any other.

    ReplyDelete
  38. glenn: What you are doing, quite transparently, is justifying Hezbollah's violations of UN resolutions.

    Actually, I think that what he is saying is that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Hezbollah should disband--no question. But then Israel should abide by all those resolutions it has decided to disregard throughout the 60 years of its existence.

    Perhaps you are saying something else here about international law, but I think that you are saying the same thing as the other person is, except in Israel's favor. That is, you are saying that if Hezbollah doesn't abide by UN resolutions, then netiehr should Israel?

    Please correct my misinterpretation, if it is such.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Anonymous2:56 PM

    cynic

    I'm not going to defend Israel, although I doubt they need much defending as far as their right to defend themselves. If 40% of Canada supported al Qaeda as a militia and political party, do you think that in October 2001 the US wouldn't have smashed everything associated with al Qaeda in Canada, including Canada itself if it got in the way? That's a lousy analogy in many ways, but there is a point there. Israel has specific targets, and civilians are not them.

    Please remember that Hizb'allah is a party and a militia, not a Moslem population. One is doomed to fall into the same trap as the wingnuts if you think all Moslems are the same. Not even all Lebanese Shiites are the same. Extinguishing a party/militia is not genocide.

    This is much like the Iraq invasion, in that, if it goes well, killing Nasrallah and destroying his party hardly seems like a bad thing. Does it solve the grievances that gave rise to Hizb'allah or stop Iran from funding and arming its replacement? No. But is that Israel's problem?

    If you want to know why Hizb'allah is so successful in Lebanon, look at the Lebanese constitution. It screws the Shiites by limiting their representation. That's not an opinion, just history.

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  40. Anonymous3:02 PM

    RubyEyes said...
    Regarding point 2. I'm pretty sure there's a difference in waving a Mexican flag in contempt of US laws and waiving an Isreali flag to show support.

    That is the very DEFINITION of selectivity.

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  41. Anonymous3:03 PM

    Glenn... Is it a "war crime" to shoot rockets into Israeli civilian sites?

    Who can tell these days? It used to be so easy when a state of war was declared in a written document by one sovereign nation on another. It's certainly a criminal act. I suppose it's a war crime as well since we are all at war now. Welcome to WWXIV version 4.O.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Anonymous3:04 PM

    As this video clearly shows, Israel is an important part of the US plan to restructure the middle east

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous3:09 PM

    Glenn... Is it a "war crime" to shoot rockets into Israeli civilian sites?


    Was the Bay of Pigs a war crime?

    To his credit, JFK did manage to get nukes out of Cuba shortly after that without any of this crap and no loss of life.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Anonymous3:12 PM

    baldie eagle said...

    The children left and the toddlers arrived. You can't win for losing.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Anonymous3:15 PM

    Glenn,

    First let me say that I am no fan of Hizbollah. However, they are a military institution and 1.4 million strong. Part of the hubris of the American/Israeli posture in the world is that you don't need to do business with "terrorists" and so we can ignore and marginilze groups like Hamas and Hizbollah, until they get out of line, and then we can "destroy" them through massive bombing campaigns. There's only one problem with this world view - we can't. We can't ignore them and they go away and we can't bomb them out of exsistence. Tell me Glenn, do you actually believe that we can?

    The actions of Israel and the United States have enpowered Al Qaeda, Hamas, and Hizbollah beyond our wildest dreams (nightmares) and the hatred against us grows by the minute. Honestly, I hate to link Al Qaeda, which is truly a pan Arabic terror network with Hizbollah and Hamas both of which are democratically backed by many of the people of Lebanon and Palastine and hold high level parlimentary/government positions. Were the people wrong and indeed amoral to have allow them to have this power? That's a different discussion altogether. But if your answer to it is "yes" do you believe that the Palestians and the Lebonese people deserve collective punishment for having enpowered them?

    As for balance. If a slave is being beaten with a whip by his master and suddenly over powers him and grabs the whip and starts beating his master do you consider that a balanced situation? I don't. I should point out that I am Jewish, my late grandfather, a Holocaust survivor left a comfortable life in Paris to go fight for Isreal in 1948, and my still-living grandmother, also a Holocaust survior, routinely refers to me as a "self-hating Jew" because of my feelings on Isreal.

    More and more I feel that Zionism is our MORAL Holocaust. It is destroying us as a people and leaving us increasingly isolated in the world.

    Rose

    ReplyDelete
  46. Anonymous3:19 PM

    the cynic librarian said...
    baldie eagle: Please remember that Hizb'allah is a party and a militia, not a Moslem population. One is doomed to fall into the same trap as the wingnuts if you think all Moslems are the same. Not even all Lebanese Shiites are the same. Extinguishing a party/militia is not genocide.

    Hezbollah is much more than a militia. It's now representative of the 12er Shiite population in Lebanese government. Most Lebanese 12ers identify with Hezbollah and its agenda and goals. As a recent report on NPR showed, in fact, Nasrallah, Hezbollah's chief, has perhaps a greater following outside Lebanon as he does inside the country.

    You want to eradicate Hezbollah, it is my guess you'll have most if not all of that 40 percent of the population against you.

    Please do not presume to know how much I do or do not about Shii'ism or Islam.


    Thanks for telling me what I already know (and already said) about the Party of God. Now please read my post and tell me where I said I want to eradicate Hizb'allah.

    I have no beef with you about support for Hizb'allah among Lebanese. As I said, if the operation goes well and Nasrallah is killed and the militia is destroyed, that is hardly a bad thing, in itself, from Israel's or any Westerner's point of view. Just like Iraq.

    Did you really miss my point that it was rather unlikely to go well?

    Let me say again that the point of the IDF's bombing "civilian" targets is NOT to kill civilians, but to stop the militia from moving the soldiers to Iran. That is what Israel fears. That is how they work. If you have a problem with that, talk to them, not me.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Anonymous3:23 PM

    Anonymous said...
    baldie eagle said...

    The children left and the toddlers arrived. You can't win for losing.


    Thanks Anonymouse! My first harsh substanceless criticism! I feel so proud.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Anonymous3:23 PM

    baldie eagle:If you think about it from a more practical and grounded standpoint, it's pretty clear what the IDF is doing. Hamas and Hizb'allah are not abstractions to Israel. They know their soldiers are out there somewhere and do not want them moved to Iran.

    Thus the bombing of the airports. They are sealing off Lebanon. They will have troops in Lebanon by the end of the week, and only the release of the soldiers can stop that. Probably not even that—I expect they have concrete plans for eliminating Nasrallah and Hizb'allah regardless.


    I think that's part of the core problem here. Hezbollah and Hamas are organizations that were founded in and used to operating in hostile environments. They have the popular support of a substantial part of the population. Direct military action does little to these groups besides swell thier ranks with more recruits and embolden thier tactics. As pointed out earlier, 18+ years of Israeli occupation failed to make a substantial dent in these organizations. Hezbollah obviously isn't that concerned about the lives of civilians, and probably consider the civilian casualties in Lebanon to be martyrs. This sort of indiscriminant pressure is probably the least likely to get the safe return of the soldiers. At the same time, the Israeli strikes have completely undermined the fragile Lebanese government just getting free of Syrian influence and therefore a potential ally in the peace process.

    When this conflict is looked at in terms of stated goals (including the destruction of Hezbollah), it really doesn't make much sense. I think its important to separate the high emotions associated with Israel's history and look at the facts: Israel has started a war of choice with the potential for a much wider expansion that is not likely to accomplish any of its stated goals. That's the problem here at its core.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anonymous3:27 PM

    glenn, I don't speak for "the Left," nor do I speak for "the European Left," or anyone other than myself when I insist that the enourmous amounts of U.S. aid propping up Israel is the source of my own personal sense of duty to personally oppose Israel's war crimes. I don't know how I can convince you of that, but there it is.

    Incidentally, please note that Egypt (which, you state, "receives an extraordinary amount of American aid") pulls in about half the amount of US aid than does Israel (despite the fact that Egypt is more populous than Israel by 10 to 1).

    Please also note that the US's vital support for Israel's war crimes (most especially the illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories) goes beyond money, and includes the perpetual veto of UN resolutions intended to rectify Israel's military dominion over the indiginous Arabs. The US (*my* nation) is, regularly, the only nation in the world voting with Israel on such resolutions... singlehandedly blocking the entire international community's consensus. Again, this gives me special culpability for the resultant crimes... a culpability that doesn't match my guilt over, say, the genocide in Darfur.

    And, well, you're just gonna have to take my word for it that--if the US were to immediately revoke all aid (military and diplomatic) from Israel, forcing Israel to singlehandedly subjugate the indiginous Arabs there without my nation's assistance--that my sense of duty to vocally oppose Israel's war crimes would abate overnight. I'd still be opposed to it, of course, the same way I'm opposed to Hezbollah's war crimes, but my sense of culpability would wane, and with it my desire to say much of anything on the subject besides, "Hey, that's too bad, I wish that would stop."

    Now, as to what "the Left" or "the European Left" would do in such a situation, I don't really know, and, truthfully, I don't really give a shit.

    Patrick Meighan
    Venice, CA

    ReplyDelete
  50. baldie eagle: Let me say again that the point of the IDF's bombing "civilian" targets is NOT to kill civilians, but to stop the militia from moving the soldiers to Iran.

    One wonders sometimes. Maybe it's just the stress of battle. Maybe it's just a bit too sensitive hair-trigger. I do not think that many people want to kill innocent civilians--except perhaps out of blind rage and desire for vengeance, as Hezbollah's actions could be interpreted. That is, they wish to avenge the many, many Palestinians who've recently been killed in Gaza. It could also be the many, many civilians recently killed in Lebanon, who knows?

    I do agree with Juan Cole when he says that the deliberate targeting of Israeli civilians by Hezbollah is a war crime.

    Yet, what about that Lebanese family of nine fleeing in their car that was burned alive by an Israeli bomb? They probably had a Katyusha rocket in the trunk.

    Some commentators inside and outside of Israel have noted that the Israeli invasion is an attempt to inflict communal punishment--not just on Hezbollah but on the Lebanese as well. Unfrotunately, we'll have to wait to watch whether or not civilians were indeed deliberately targeted by Israel be swept under the rug.

    ReplyDelete
  51. [Patrick Meighan]: Israel DOES need my nation's support in order to execute its crimes, and it gets it, and this saddles me, as a citizen of this nation, with a moral culpability that far outweighs my culpability when, say, Karimov boils a protester, or Musharraf cancels an election, or King Faud stones a homosexual, or Mubarak tortures an extremist.

    [Glenn Greenwald]: And yet the tyranny and evils of those regimes -- let alone those which are the enemies of Israel -- don't seem to provoke even a fraction of the protest which the Israeli democracy provokes from certain corners of the Left, and I don't accept as persuasive the claim that this is the case because so much American aid goes to Israel.

    I'm perfectly willing to condemn them all ... as well as the United States when it crosses the line. I think we should be forthright in our own stated opinions as to the actions of others ... and if we want any credibility, be just as consistent in avoiding any such abuses ourselves, particularly if we want to have any credibility in our demands of others.

    I want to make clear that in doing so, I don't think that any policy of disengagement from any such bad actors is productive. We should have "relations" with the "baddies" (just as we did with the Soviet Union), and hold out both carrot and stick to them in trying to bend them to complying with our ideals of just behaviour. But first we need to be plain about what is acceptable and what isn't, in our view ... when we "overlook" the "bad" behaviour, we forfeit our right to do anything about it later; we abandon our claim. Work on the big things first, but keep the others on the table, I say.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  52. Anonymous3:34 PM

    baldie eagle said...

    Thanks Anonymouse! My first harsh substanceless criticism! I feel so proud.


    You are so lacking in grace and verbal dexterity I thought I would just get out of your way and let you fall on your face. You accomplished that much.

    baldie eagle... That's a lousy analogy in many ways, but there is a point there. Israel has specific targets, and civilians are not them

    That's a pretty lousy sentence, too.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous3:41 PM

    Unfrotunately, we'll have to wait to watch whether or not civilians were indeed deliberately targeted by Israel.

    We'll probably never know.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous3:48 PM

    Glenn... And yet the tyranny and evils of those regimes -- let alone those which are the enemies of Israel -- don't seem to provoke even a fraction of the protest which the Israeli democracy provokes from certain corners of the Left, and I don't accept as persuasive the claim that this is the case because so much American aid goes to Israel... plenty of countries to which we provide support engage in all sorts of bad acts without many anti-Israeli critics being particularly vocal about it, if they say anything about it at all.

    I don't see that. Apartheid
    South Africa, Central and South America, to name a few, come to mind. This conflict is less sharply drawn politically because of the religious dimension, perhaps.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous3:49 PM

    Anonymous said...

    That's a pretty lousy sentence, too.

    Point taken, I guess. And as for you . . . oh, right. I don't know who you are, beyond those 2 brilliant posts.

    I know only that you speak English and can spell. Bravo!

    Talk to me when you have a name, child.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Anonymous3:51 PM

    baldie eagle said...

    We'll probably never know.


    The smartest and truest thing you've said yet.

    And in only 3 words and a contraction.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Anonymous4:02 PM

    I think the difference is more ideological than anything else- Israel is a militarized and largely right-wing country, aligned with the U.S. against numerous weaker countries. Many on the left view it with natural hostility for that reason more than any other.

    That's basically true. Except, in relative terms, it's a largely a Left-wing country. Throughout most its history, it had a socialist economy and it remains partly socialist today. Domestically, it's more Left-wing/socialist than France. The only thing "right-wing" about it is its use of miliatary force. But I would argue that's more a function of living in a neighborhood where force is everything and the existential struggle it has been enduring since its birth, rather than a "right-wing" or an ideological thing. A lot of the Israel-hatred among the Left is due to Israel's use of force. The better question is why Israel is such a focus rather than, say, Russia's far more brutal bombardment of Chechnya, not to mention the Arab crimes against their own people.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Anonymous4:04 PM

    Arne... We should have "relations" with the "baddies" (just as we did with the Soviet Union), and hold out both carrot and stick to them in trying to bend them to complying with our ideals of just behaviour. But first we need to be plain about what is acceptable and what isn't, in our view ... when we "overlook" the "bad" behaviour, we forfeit our right to do anything about it later; we abandon our claim. Work on the big things first, but keep the others on the table, I say.

    We no longer use the carrot and the stick. It's more like the crack pipe and the gun.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Anonymous4:05 PM

    Unfrotunately, we'll have to wait to watch whether or not civilians were indeed deliberately targeted by Israel.

    I can't see much difference between 'deliberately' targetting civilians and targetting areas where civiilans are reasonably expected to be.

    This is a big part of my problem with the Iraq war: we have the most detailed and accurate forecasts of civilian casualties in history and continue to launch bombing strikes that kill thousands and thousands of innocent Iraqis anyway.

    "He shouldn't have got in the way of my fist" was not accepted as an excuse by the teachers at my grade school and it is not an excuse now.

    ReplyDelete
  60. glen,

    i don't see your point re: hezbollah's continued existence constituting a violation of UN resolutions. so what? that doesn't give israel any more right to take illegal action than it does for me to go assault someone on the street that i see committing a crime.

    israel's actions are only legal if they are in legitimate self defense. it doesn't matter what resolutions hezbollah/lebanon may be in violation of. enforcement of resolutions is the province of the security council, not individual members.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Anonymous4:08 PM

    The Hidden Imam...That's basically true. Except, in relative terms, it's a largely a Left-wing country. Throughout most its history

    From your perspective on the far right here in the U.S. perhaps, but it's better to use the authoritarian/miltarized description. I don't think our local concepts of left/right political leanings translate easily in many of these cases.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Juan Cole reports:

    If the reports coming out of Lebanon can be believed, the Israelis are only sometimes striking known Hizbullah safe houses or facilities or missile emplacements. A lot of their bombardment appears aimed at punishing civilian populations and forcing them north to Beirut. Such an approach would help explain the high number of civilian casualties. That is, there may be an element of ethnic cleansing in Israeli tactics. [my emphasis]

    The Irish Times reports:

    ' The civilian toll continued to mount in Lebanon yesterday as Israeli planes struck dozens of targets. Nine civilians, including two children, were killed when they were hit by a missile that struck a bridge in the southern port city of Sidon . In the southern city of Tyre, rescue workers pulled nine more bodies from the civil defence building that was hit on Sunday in an Israeli strike. Close to 200 civilians have been killed in Lebanon since the Israeli offensive began last week, when Hizbullah attacked an Israeli border patrol, killing three soldiers and capturing two. Five more soldiers were killed when they gave chase into Lebanon .'

    ReplyDelete
  63. hidden imam: Except, in relative terms, it's a largely a Left-wing country. Throughout most its history, it had a socialist economy and it remains partly socialist today. Domestically, it's more Left-wing/socialist than France. The only thing "right-wing" about it is its use of miliatary force.


    Watch out for those dirty Arabs, they just want our women so they can blow us up. According to the Daily Star:

    In recently approving an effective ban on marriages between Israelis and Palestinians, Israel's Supreme Court has shut tighter the gates of the Jewish fortress the state of Israel is rapidly becoming. The judges' decision, in the words of the country's normally restrained Haaretz daily, was "shameful."

    By a wafer-thin majority, the highest court in the land ruled that an amendment passed in 2003 to the Nationality Law barring Palestinians from living with an Israeli spouse inside Israel - what is termed "family unification" - did not violate rights enshrined in the country's Basic Laws.

    And even if it did, the court added, the harm caused to the separated families was outweighed by the benefits of improved "security." Israel, concluded the judges, was justified in closing the door to residency for all Palestinians in order to block the entry of those few who might use marriage as a way to launch terrorist attacks.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous4:14 PM

    Prunes..."He shouldn't have got in the way of my fist" was not accepted as an excuse by the teachers at my grade school and it is not an excuse now.

    We are all the victims of the "big lie" that military actions can be taken with minimal civilian casualties. We are lied to in this way because to tell the truth about these matters would mean that fewer civilians would allow their governments to rush off into wars of choice.

    ReplyDelete
  65. also, i think israel's attack on lebanon (or, if you prefer, lebanon's attack on israel) may have finally put to rest the old "democracies dont attack democracies" adage

    ReplyDelete
  66. Anonymous4:18 PM

    Glenn:

    That is why I find Juan Cole one of the more balanced commentators on the Middle East. Although he's routinely accused of being some sort of Israel-hater -- and he certainly does fall on the side of criticizing Israel more so than those of its enemies -- he is one of the few commentators who both criticizes and defends each side at various times, raising his credibility level, at least in my view, considerably (which is not to say that I don't often find grounds for disagreeing with his views). After quoting at length a couple of days ago from a speech by Hezbollah's leader, Hasan Nasrallah, Cole said this (emphasis in original):

    "Hizbullah's attacks on Israeli civilians are war crimes. The killing of the civilians in Haifa at the train station was a war crime. And threatening to release chemicals from factories on civilian populations is probably a war crime in itself, much less the doing of it.

    Obviously, I do not accept that Hizbullah's actions justify the wholesale indiscriminate destruction and slaughter in which the Israelis have been engaged against the Lebanese in general. But they do have every right to defend themselves against Nasrallah and his mad bombers."


    This is indeed perhaps the most "balanced" I have seen Cole, which isn't saying much. Cole generally excuses war crimes of Arab terrorists, impugns Arab democrats and lambastes Israel and the US for the "wholesale indiscriminate destruction and slaughter" of Arabs.

    In this case, Cole actually calls Hizbollah's missile attacks as a war crime before going back to his usual lies about Israel's "wholesale indiscriminate destruction and slaughter...against the Lebanese in general."

    This is your idea of balance?

    (2) During the protests several months ago against proposed anti-immigration legislation, there were all sorts of angry denunciations over the protestors' waving of Mexican flags...Yesterday, in the middle of New York City, protestors clogged the streets of Manhattan for a large rally called the "Stand with Israel" rally. As the photographs taken by one of the attendees reflect, there seem to have been many Israeli flags but, at least in these photographs, no American flags. Despite that, one of the most vocal commentators who lambasted the waving of Mexican flags on U.S. soil lauded the pro-Israeli protest.

    Context is everything.

    Many waving the Mexican flags were demanding the right to settle out country and use our services while remaining loyal Mexicans. One would think that if you wanted to argue that illegal immigrants were good Americans, they would fly the American flag to show solidarity with their adopted country.

    In NYC yesterday, these were Americans showing solidarity with our ally Israel by flying the Israeli flag. What other flag should they be flying to show solidarity with Israel?

    (3) One of the things I dislike about those who venerate U.N. Resolutions and international law is that it always seems so selectively emphasized by whoever is wielding them. Whatever else one wants to say about Israel -- meaning, leave aside the long list of alleged sins -- it is simply the case that there is a U.N. Resolution, 1559 (.pdf), which calls for the Lebanese government to exert full control over all of its territory, and independently, for the disbandment of Lebanese militias, including Hezbollah.

    Neither the Lebanese Government nor Hezbollah are in compliance with that Resolution.


    I am going to play the devil's advocate here.

    1) By exactly what authority does the UN tell the sovereign government of Lebanon how to organize its political and military system? Was Lebanon in violation of some UN charter provision or some other treaty obligation?

    2) By exactly what authority does the UN tell Hizbollah to disband? The UN never accused Hizbollah of any war crimes or crimes against humanity. If Hizbollah wants to start an armed revolution for political control of Lebanon, isn't that right recognized in our own Declaration of Independence?

    Shouldn't those on the Left who believe in the supremacy of international law and U.N. resolutions be unequivocally condemning Hezbollah, which ought to be disbanded if U.N. Resolutions are complied with...

    Why?

    Resolution 1559 does not directly order any country to disband Hizbollah or Hizbollah itself to disband. Nor is there any authorization to use force to disband Hizbollah. The UN speaks in passive aspirational language only.

    The UN expressly gave the Coalition the right to use force to enforce the Ceasefire terms against Iraq and found Iraq in violation of those terms over a dozen times. Yet, the Left never thought that was adequate grounds to use military force against Hussein. Why should they then be expected to enforce the much weaker Resolution 1559?

    I...and who, by definition, are guilty of war crimes for engaging in these acts in violation of those resolutions?

    Interesting argument. In that case, Saddam committed an ongoing series of war crimes between the Persian Gulf and Iraq Wars.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Anonymous4:26 PM

    The Hidden Imam...The better question is why Israel is such a focus rather than, say, Russia's far more brutal bombardment of Chechnya, not to mention the Arab crimes against their own people.

    With whom did the right in the US side during "Russia's brutal bombardment" of Chechnya? With whom did the right in the US side with during the Soviet Union's occupation of Afghanistan?

    ReplyDelete
  68. Anonymous4:30 PM

    also, i think israel's attack on lebanon (or, if you prefer, lebanon's attack on israel) may have finally put to rest the old "democracies dont attack democracies" adage

    That was never an old adage. It was never true, either. It was one of the newer "truthinesses".

    ReplyDelete
  69. hidden imam: Do you really want to compare Israel's government to their Arab neighbors' governments? Do you really want to discuss the fact that Israel's Knesset is 20% Arab, and that these Knesset members, along with most of their Arab constituency, denies the legitimacy of the state, openly sides with Israel's enemies who wish to destroy it?

    According to Haaretz:

    Sixty-eight percent of Israeli Jews would refuse to live in the same apartment building as an Israeli Arab, according to the results of an annual poll released Wednesday by the Center for the Struggle Against Racism.

    The "Index of Racism Towards Arab Palestinian Citizens of the State of Israel," conducted by Geocartographia, revealed only 26 percent of Jews in Israel would agree to live with Arab neighbors in the same building.

    Forty-six percent of Jews would refuse to allow an Arab to visit their home while 50 percent would welcome an Arab visitor. Forty-one percent of Jewish support the segregation of Jews and Arabs in places of recreation and 52 percent of such Jews would oppose such a move.
    [my emphasis]

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anonymous4:37 PM

    The Hidden Imam...Life isn't always as simple and pure as your animus towards the state of Israel, CL.

    Neither is your look into CL's soul as deep and penetrating as Bush's gaze into Putin's. What were we talking about? Oh yeah. Socialists and commies.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Hidden imam, More to the point: According to the Financial Times:

    Opinion polls show a clear majority for the Kadima party led by Ehud Olmert, acting prime minister, which failed to include an Arab candidate high enough on its party list to stand a chance of entering the 120-seat Knesset, or parliament.

    Most Zionist parties speak of a "demographic problem" and the threat posed by the Arabs to Israel's Jewish majority. The policy prescriptions of Zionist parties range from making Israel a state for all its citizens, with a separation of church and state, to advocating the "transfer" of Arabs out of the state.

    "It's stupid to give us the vote when in all other areas of life we're not made part of the state and are called a 'demographic problem'," says Sayed Kashua, an award-winning Israeli Arab author who writes in Hebrew. "I won't vote because the whole thing is a Jewish game and I don't have any faith in politicians, especially the Arab parties, which fight each other."

    ReplyDelete
  72. Anonymous4:40 PM

    Anonymous said...
    You are welcome to criticize Israel without being called anti-Semitic, and I find people whining about being silenced with that charge are almost always overreacting. As a Jew myself, I've never leveled that charge against someone who criticizes Israel on the merits of their government's policy.


    Just a note. I don't think this has yet been pointed out, so I will say it for the record, because I see a common assumption in many posts here. I don't think one can assume that it is Jews who most often use the charge of anti-Semitism to defend Israel against critics. It's the Christian right and the neocons and their friends. That is, those who probably least believe it.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Glenn:

    Can we agree that much of the violent rhetoric directed at those fellow Americans who don't agree with Bush's 'war on terror' and his Middle East policies are generally coming from those (D. Horowitz for instance) that put the interests of Israel above that of the United States?

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  74. Glen,

    You said you would outline "various thoughts on the Israeli/our war" scenario and then balked at the final fence, lurching into an attack on left wingers who don't condemn Hizbullah or Lebanon for failing to adhere to 1559.

    Firstly, and this is not my main point so please don't address this and ignore the other, the Lebanese army are not as powerful as Hizbullah and the army would disintegrate possibly leading to another civil war. It would possibly require a UN force to be despatched to take on that task, it certainly cannot be achieved by the people asked to perform it in the resolution. Indeed, the Israelis themselves occupied Lebanon for around twenty years... why didn't they disband them if it was such a simple task? If we seriously want to disband Hisbullah, and I think that would be a very good thing, then we need to assign that task to someone capable of achieving it.

    However, my main complaint here is that you didn't answer the question that I thought you were going to answer.

    Are Israel's wars yours?

    And as you bring up later, "Why are (people) interested in one groups war crimes and not the others?"

    Let me be clear here. When Hizbullah and others attack civilians they are committing crimes, that's why they are called terrorists. You're a lawyer so I'm sure you'll know better than I whether a group of individuals operating seperately from the state can commit war crimes. I thought those happened when sanctioned by the state, but I'm ready to stand corrected.

    My main point though is, get off the fence, are Israel's wars the US's wars in your opinion?

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anonymous4:45 PM

    Remember when after 9/11 the French newspaper said "Today we are all Americans"? It is the same sense of solidarity between free nations facing the threat of terrorism.

    That warm and fuzzy feeling didn't even last as long as Bush's vanishing political capital. I wonder why?

    You are welcome to criticize Israel without being called anti-Semitic, and I find people whining about being silenced with that charge are almost always overreacting.

    Almost always? Weasel words much?


    As a Jew myself, I've never leveled that charge against someone who criticizes Israel on the merits of their government's policy.

    Wait for it...

    However some do indeed criticize Israel out of a subtextual sense that Jews are fundamentally illigitmate (sic), and this is where the anti-Semitic charge is deserved.

    Is that a non-denial denial?

    ReplyDelete
  76. Anonymous4:45 PM

    Tribalism. That seems to be what it's all about and the more I read up on religion the more it seems "tribalism" is built into all these religious texts.

    None of them seem to advocate going next door, ringing your neighbor's bell, and shooting him in the face when he answers the door.

    But they all seem to have a whole lot of animosity for and a thirst for vengeance against other tribes. It seems the way that's accomplished is to say all who don't believe in your "God" are from a different tribe and deserving of your God's wrath, delivered to them by you as his proxy.

    Those texts don't seem to define "tribe" as people across a border: they just lump everyone who believes in a different "God" as being from another tribe. Then problems develop when the different "tribes" get into close contact with each other.

    RE: flag waving. I thought this country was supposed to be a melting pot. The essence of a melting pot is you melt. Everyone was supposed to bring some of the culture, traditions, customs, etc. of their former countries here (in my opinion, the less the better-- if other countries were so great those people would have stayed there) but that was supposed to be like carry-on luggage. Not an attempt to take over the plane.

    When you get here, you become an American and the values which defined this country are supposed to become yours.

    But it's a little bit of a complex question, I admit. When I read of the rallies in Canada in support of the Lebanese people, the notices said to "bring a Lebanese and/or a Canadian flag".

    That seemed reasonable when I read it, as the purpose of the demonstration was to protest the killing of Lebanese citizens.

    So how is that different than the Mexican flags or the Israeli flags, I asked myself.

    I conclude it's not different than the Israeli flags but it's different than the Mexican flags.

    The purpose of the Mexican flags was not to draw attention to injustices in Mexico, which one could perhaps argue was acceptable for a rally like the Lebanese and Israeli flags. It was people who are not Americans protesting American laws on our soil. I find that grating.

    My conclusion is I don't even know what I think about the whole thing. I think probably the waving of any flag but the flag of the country of which you are a citizen is not a good thing. Waving an American flag but carrying a sign stating your moral position and why you are out protesting is probably best.

    In Sunny's link this statement appeared:

    Critics of Israel note increasingly that Israel is self-destructing, nearing a catastrophe of its own making. Israeli journalist Gideon Levy talks of a society in “moral collapse.”

    Michel Warschawski writes of an “Israeli madness” and “insane brutality,” a “putrefaction” of civilized society, that have set Israel on a suicidal course. He foresees the end of the Zionist enterprise; Israel is a “gang of hoodlums,” he says, a state “that makes a mockery of legality and of civil morality. A state run in contempt of justice loses the strength to survive.”

    As Warschawski notes bitterly, Israel no longer knows any moral boundaries -- if it ever did. Those who continue to support Israel, who make excuses for it as it descends into corruption, have lost their moral compass.


    What do people think about this statement?

    I can see an argument that the United States and Israel were supposed to represent the "moral" point of view as nations and there's a very good argument they did.

    If neither no longer does, that's a tragedy.

    Here are some others who have weighed in on issues like this:

    War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious.

    ~General Smedley Butler


    The real triumph of civilization is the extent to which coercion is banished from human relations.

    ~Anthony Gregory

    If there is one principle more deeply rooted in the mind of every American, it is that we should have nothing to do with conquest.

    ~Thomas Jefferson

    ...History shows that ... (people) can be deflected from their natural tendencies by artful propaganda, bogus crises, or other political trickery.

    ~Robert Higgs

    Conflict is inevitable, but combat is optional.

    ~Max Lucade

    I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.

    ~Mahatma Gandhi

    Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages.

    ~Thomas Alva Edison

    Be loyal to your country always, and to the government only when it deserves it.

    ~Mark Twain

    When the largest industry in the world is no longer War, I will accept Darwin's theory of Evolution.

    ~Dale S. Mugford

    The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.

    ~Thomas Jefferson

    It is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

    ~Robert H. Jackson

    The real fabric of American society is not all those flags you see on people's cars...it's in the Bill of Rights and in our constitutional form of government.

    ~John Adams

    Evil men, obsessed with ambition and unburdened by conscience, must be taken very seriously--and we must stop them before their crimes can multiply.

    ~George W. Bush
    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your governmant when it deserves it.

    ~Mark Twain

    So long as the deceit ran along quiet and monotonous, all of us let ourselves be deceived, abetting it unawares or maybe through cowardice...

    ~William Faulkner

    The world should take notice when someone...with a fanatic mind and with powerful means, receives his marching orders from Heaven.

    ~Rodrigue Tremblay

    Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages.

    ~Thomas Alva Edison

    The force of public opinion cannot be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed. The agitation it produces must be submitted to.

    ~Thomas Jefferson

    Where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control.

    ~Lord Acton

    It is useless to attack men who could not be controlled even if conquered, while failure would leave us in an even worse position...

    ~Thucydides

    Only fools seek power, and the greatest fools seek it through force.

    ~Lao Tsu

    I know of no safe depository of the ultimate power of the society but the people themselves.

    ~Thomas Jefferson


    Thanks, pinkos and all other collectivists. You've pretty much eliminated the possibility of a "safe depository" of power in this country when you insisted on giving all power to the government so the corrupt special interests groups with whom you always get in bed could stuff their faces at the trough. Nice handiwork. Thanks for taking this country away from the "individual" and turning it over to the "government". Hope you're happy now.

    Historically, the most terrible things--war, genocide and slavery--have resulted from obedience, not disobedience.

    ~Howard Zinn

    Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.

    ~Franklin D. Roosevelt


    (Bart, meet FDR)

    Nothing will end war unless the people themselves refuse to go to war.

    ~Albert Einstein

    All forms of violence, especially war, are totally unacceptable as means to settle disputes between and among nations, groups and persons.

    ~Dalai Lama

    The greatest crime since World War II has been US foreign policy.

    ~William Ramsey Clark

    In a time of war, truth is always replaced by propaganda.

    ~Charles Lindbergh

    Although tyranny...may successfully rule over foreign peoples, it can stay in power only if it destroys first of all the national institutions of its own people.

    ~Hannah Arendt

    The greatest protection against war is a well educated populace.

    ~L.L. Castetter

    You lose nothing through peace. You can lose everything through war.

    ~Pope Pius XII

    Two armies that fight each other is like one large army that commits suicide.

    ~Henri Barbusse

    The tyranny of a prince in an oligarchy is not so dangerous to public welfare as the apathy of a citizen in a democracy.

    ~Charles de Montesquieu


    OK. Xanax time:

    Evil men, obsessed with ambition and unburdened by conscience, must be taken very seriously--and we must stop them before their crimes can multiply.

    ~George W. Bush,


    And Xanax won't do it for this next one. Get out the Oxy. The Oscar goes to:

    Why should we hear about body bags, and deaths...I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?

    ~Barbara Bush


    Oy vey. Words fail me.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Anonymous4:48 PM

    CL,

    Yes. And in the Arab countries? That 26% would be a big fat zero. And major newspapers, like Haaretz, speak out against it. Compare that to the Arab countries, or among the Palestinians, where the death of each Zionist baby is -- literally -- a cause of celebration and an occassion to hand out sweets. Do I really need to explain this to you?

    Is there a co-existence problem in Israel? Sure. Does it need to get better? Sure.

    But given the history, it shouldn't be very surprising. Given the stakes, and the ongoing attempt in the Arab/Islamic world to exterminate the Zionists apes and pigs, and given the fifth-column behavior of a large portion of the Arab sector, I'd say the situation isn't all that bad. Haifa is a highly integrated city. And I don't think Palestinian attempts, in coordination with Israeli Arab residents, to smuggle bombs in baby carriages and send out 12-year olds on suicide missions really did a lot to persuade Israelis that their concerns are overblown.

    Ultimately, people like you are hopeless. You choose not to exercise any perspective. Every wrong is equal to every other wrong. Gradations don't matter. Your hatred cannot be mollified. I'm done with you.

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  78. Anonymous4:49 PM

    All conservatives are essentially children, which is why it does no good to debate with them. Arrested development. At least kids can be sent to their rooms. After a nap, they forget what they were being brats about until the next time they have a tantrum. Do you need another coloring book, Bart? Or did you eat all your crayons again?

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  79. Anonymous4:53 PM

    The Hidden Imam...Ultimately, people like you are hopeless. You choose not to exercise any perspective. Every wrong is equal to every other wrong. Gradations don't matter. Your hatred cannot be mollified. I'm done with you.

    :::Stamps feet and runs from the room:::

    See what I mean? After a nap, he'll be right as rain. The difference is that as adults, we know we can't just be done with our children, at least not legally until they are 18.

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  80. Anonymous4:59 PM

    among the Palestinians, where the death of each Zionist baby is -- literally -- a cause of celebration and an occassion to hand out sweets.

    Cretin.

    You choose not to exercise any perspective. Every wrong is equal to every other wrong.

    Hmm, I'd say rather that two wrongs don't make a right.

    As soon as you find yourself rating your actions on the 'evil scale', you are doing something wrong.

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  81. The Cynic Librarian (quoting Juan Cole):

    "If the reports coming out of Lebanon can be believed, the Israelis are only sometimes striking known Hizbullah safe houses or facilities or missile emplacements. A lot of their bombardment appears aimed at punishing civilian populations and forcing them north to Beirut. Such an approach would help explain the high number of civilian casualties. That is, there may be an element of ethnic cleansing in Israeli tactics."

    Or perhaps, combining this with the advance warnings given to target areas, just an attempt to chase out as much of the civilian population as possible before a ground invasion .... oooops, silly me, revealing tactical plans. My bad. I didn't say nuthin '.....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  82. Anonymous5:09 PM

    Who assassinated Rabin?

    ReplyDelete
  83. Anonymous5:12 PM

    Just now: IDF not ruling out a massive ground invasion of Southern Lebabnon.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Anonymous5:13 PM

    U.S. sending 5 warships to Lebanon to help with "evacuation".

    ReplyDelete
  85. Anonymous5:25 PM

    If you like Iraq,you will love the upcoming war in Iran and Syria

    ReplyDelete
  86. Anonymous5:26 PM

    Apparently the evacuation of our citizens from Lebanon is going about as well as the Katrina relief effort. The sheer incompetence is mind blowing. Isn't anyone watching the store? How are we supposed to remain a superpower when we can't even effectively mount an evacuation effort? Other countries sent ships, planes, etc. the first day of the conflict and our citizens are still trapped there.

    One American and his wife found passage on a Swedish-chartered ship, expressing anger at how long the U.S. evacuation process was taking, according to The Associated Press.

    "I can't wait anymore. I'm sorry it's taking them too long," he told the AP. The man, who said he was from Pennsylvania, said he was too distraught to talk further and declined to give his name, according to the AP.

    E-mails sent to CNN from people inside Lebanon suggest anger at the speed of the U.S. evacuation.

    "A week into this conflict, and I am still waiting to hear back from the American Embassy," wrote Natalie Kerlakian of Denver, Colorado.

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  87. Anonymous5:30 PM

    Like usual, glenn, the upcoming war in Iran and Syria you nailed it.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous5:34 PM

    Correct me if necessary, but I would think an essential part of "ethnic cleansing" would be either selective expulsion of religious/ethnic groups or sending in settlers to replace everyone.

    Dr Cole seems a bit breathless on this topic.

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  89. Anonymous5:36 PM

    frankly, my dear More likely it was to protest the killing of Canadian citizens of Lebanese origin who happened to be visting family in Lebannon.

    Whoops. Sorry. That's exactly what I meant but I wrote that sloppily. Thanks for the correction. I think the slant was sort of an anti-war slant also because I don't think that rally was to protest Israeli policy: I think it was to protest the loss of life in senseless wars, in this case Canadians.

    The "peace movement" around the world seems to be growing, which I personally think is a very hopeful sign.

    Many people are less interested in casting blame than in doing what cynic said: sit down at the table and talk.

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  90. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  91. Get this....

    The State Department will be billing those American citizens that decide to be evacuated from Lebanon.

    http://www.halifaxlive.com/content/view/797/2/

    ....and didn't just yesterday the US Defense Department 'sold' Israel $231 million in jet fuel for jets we gave Israel, among other things, for free.

    Apart from the aid we give Israel every year with no-strings attached, when was the last time Israel paid off any amount of the $80 billion in loans we've given them?

    They haven't paid one red-cent back.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Anonymous5:38 PM

    Glenn said:

    One of the things I dislike about those who ....

    Who are you talking about? Generally your posts and points are replete with links but this time not so .... why?

    ReplyDelete
  93. Anonymous5:41 PM

    Patrick Meighan for President.

    I'm glad my roster of possible candidates is growing. If there was nobody on it I'd be even more worried about the state of things.

    Always nice to remind oneself that there are real Patriotic Americans around and I put both Glenn and Patrick Meighan in that category.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous5:45 PM

    A.J. is recent addition to the blog. As I recall he was with DIA before DHS came into existence.

    He has a post on the current topic.

    The Middle East: Bad strategy all around

    (...)

    The current conflict is between Hezbollah and Israel, and in this fight Israel has more legitimacy than some give it credit for. This position is further supported by the remarkable and unprecedented recent reactions from other Arab states, which have criticized Hezbollah rather than the usual approach of blaming everything on Israel. A decent analogy is (the old) Afghanistan, a sovereign nation wherein a terrorist group operated with impunity. Virtually everyone agreed that the U.S. had the right to invade Afghanistan to get at al-Qa’ida because the Afghan government wouldn’t (and really couldn’t) control them itself.

    The method of retaliation, however, has erased some of this legitimacy, and the attacks against Lebanon’s infrastructure and economy are morally questionable to say the least. While I understand the goal, Israel is going about it the wrong way, punishing too many of the wrong people. I'm not convinced that Israel's actions are appropriately matched to its strategic goals. Hezbollah, of course, remains morally repugnant, and continues to indiscriminately fire missiles into civilian areas...


    Perhaps I'm partial to it because it mirrors my sentiments precisely yet I'm just an amateur. It's good to know my instincts are still sharp. Worth a read.

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  95. Anonymous5:51 PM

    Anonymous said...
    Just now: IDF not ruling out a massive ground invasion of Southern Lebabnon.


    Word on the street is that this will happen by Friday.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Anonymous5:54 PM

    Dr. Rudy Kastner said...
    Get this....

    The State Department will be billing those American citizens that decide to be evacuated from Lebanon.


    I read that too and almost fainted.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Anonymous5:54 PM

    baldie eagle said...
    Correct me if necessary, but I would think an essential part of "ethnic cleansing" would be either selective expulsion of religious/ethnic groups or sending in settlers to replace everyone.

    Dr Cole seems a bit breathless on this topic.


    Would population transfer by H-explosive detonations make you breath easier?

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  98. Anonymous6:00 PM

    Anonymous said...

    Would population transfer by H-explosive detonations make you breath easier?

    Thanks for the link. Yes, that would certainly clear up any ambiguities. Although I suspect that concerns you more than it does me.

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  99. Anonymous6:01 PM

    I just hope we don't end up knowing the names of those two israeli soldiers the way we know Archduke Ferdinands.

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  100. My question is . . . does it make any sense to punish the government of Lebanon for not being able to disarm militias? This government seems eager to please . . . wouldn't attempting to guide and support their efforts make more sense than resorting to open war?

    After all, Israel has the right to defend itself, but its policies are too-often marked by openly expansionist tendencies, and invading a neighbor when cooperation would better serve your stated purpose is begging to have your motives questioned.

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  101. Anonymous6:04 PM

    Thanks for the link. Yes, that would certainly clear up any ambiguities. Although I suspect that concerns you more than it does me.

    Your welcome. Ethnic cleansing is something I get concerned about, no matter who is doing it. BTW, it looks like the invasion will not be televised. It's been called off.

    As per Peres, right now.

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  102. Here's my response to several comments:

    Glenn, I love your blog but I really think you're off-base here. Israel is "our" war in the same way if any of our allies, England, France, heck even Brazil, was forced to respond to massive terrorism we'd call it "our" war.

    We have treaties with some allies - such as NATO - where we commit to treat their wars as our wars precisely because allies don't automatically get involved in each other's wars. Le Monde may have made that lovely declaration but France doesn't automatically fight in our post 9/11 wars - nor does Germany or Brazil, or any of the other countries you named.

    Why should we treat Israeli's wars as our wars? Just because a country is your ally doesn't mean you intervene in all of their wars. That's just basic.

    I don't see that. Apartheid
    South Africa, Central and South America, to name a few, come to mind. This conflict is less sharply drawn politically because of the religious dimension, perhaps.


    Those on the Right have no problem criticizing the abuses of left-wing governments, and those on the Left have no problem criticizing right-wing abuses. It's when the abuses are on their side that the difficulty seems to arise.

    DR RUDY KASTNER Can we agree that much of the violent rhetoric directed at those fellow Americans who don't agree with Bush's 'war on terror' and his Middle East policies are generally coming from those (D. Horowitz for instance) that put the interests of Israel above that of the United States?

    I'm not sure what you mean by "those that put the interests of Israel above that of the U.S.," but if what you mean are dual-loyalty jews, I'd have to answer "no." Some of the worst offenders of this rhetoric are people like Dick Cheney, Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Bill First, etc. There are lots of reasons why people have pushed us into Middle East wars and stigmatized those who opposed that OTHER THAN excess allegiance to Israel.

    However, my main complaint here is that you didn't answer the question that I thought you were going to answer.

    Are Israel's wars yours?


    I didn't realize when I said I would write about this two days ago that I had a time limit, let alone such a tight one. I think it's quite clear that I do not believe that Israel's wars generally, or this war in particular, are our wars. When I said I would write about my views on that, I didn't mean to suggest I was going to unveil whether I thought that - I thought that was clear and I've written that before - I meant that I would respond to the substance of the arguments being made by Kristol et al. as to why they are so misguided.

    Who are you talking about? Generally your posts and points are replete with links but this time not so .... why?

    Usually, when I write a post with a few shorter, disparate items, like today, it's because I don't have the time to write a longer, more researched post (although if I don't have the time to write a post that I think is worth reading, I'd rather post nothing than post something just to post). Having said that, the purpose of that point wasn't to single people out as the culprits I was refuting; it was to make a logical point about those who claim adherence to international law and how that applies to the various defenses of Hezbellah I've been hearing.

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  103. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  104. Anonymous6:13 PM

    Ethnic cleansing is something I get concerned about, no matter who is doing it.

    I meant the ambiguities, sorry. I am also concerned about ethnic cleansing, when it happens.

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  105. Anonymous6:15 PM

    If one walked down the street waving one Israeli and one Palestinian flag they might be labeled a “leftard” by an American extremist, while anyone else might be curious about the meaning of this behavior and wish to investigate further.

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  106. Anonymous6:23 PM

    For those of you expressing concern about Israel's targetting of civilian populations, http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150886035223&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
    provides a useful perspective to keep in mind. Let's also not forget that when a military target is in the midst of a civilian community, it's not easy to target the enemy without any civilian casualties. this is not to say that the deaths of innocent Lebanese isn't a terrible thing, but Israel is doing its best to conduct a war and minimize civilian deaths. The IAF routinely has dropped flyers warning civilians of attacks, hoping to protect the civilians at the cost of providing additional information to Hezbollah. (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150886036308&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) (I think it's fair to say that none of these statements can be applied in Hezbollah's defense).
    I'm sure many of you will be skeptical, but after a summer of living with Israeli soldiers I feel pretty comfortable believing the above information.

    One other interesting tidbit. Israel does not want the US to get involved militarily. From the Jerusalem Post:

    Many MKs said that while they were happy to hear US politicians taking a strong line in support of Israel, they were concerned about how US intervention would play itself out.
    "It is not World War III because there are no armies involved," said Vice Premier Shimon Peres (Kadima). "They must remember that this is an entirely different type of conflict."
    "In many ways they are completely disconnected from what is going on here," said MK Zahava Gal-On (Meretz). "They might make calls for something that is completely unnecessary."
    "They haven't learned anything and they don't understand anything. I hope that they understand more about America than they understand about the Middle East," said MK Colette Avital (Labor).

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  107. Anonymous6:34 PM

    Don't know if you've seen this, Glenn, but you've made it internationally. There's a very nice article about your book and your blog in Die Welt:

    http://www.welt.de/data/2006/07/18/962840.html

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  108. Anonymous6:35 PM

    The nation of Israel will use technology, American assistance, industrial wealth, fake treaties and brute strength to repel attackers of the territory it claims.

    The nation of Palestinians will use terrorism, Iranian or Syrian assistance, oil wealth, fake treaties and ruthlessness to attack occupiers of the territory it claims.

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  109. Anonymous6:37 PM

    Rub a Dub Dubya

    The great Billmon weighs in again. Actually Billmon just called me and thanked me for reminding him about Barbara Bush. (OK, just kidding, but great minds do think alike.....)

    You know, when I was in college I actually had fair to middling luck with the let-me-give-you-a-nice-back-rub approach. But I think when you're 60 years old, and the President of the United States, you really ought to be able to come up with a better pick-up line.


    Update 5:05 PM: Well, OK, now I've watched the video and I realize my feeble attempt at humor was extremely misplaced. This is certified creepy shit -- not least because of the zombie expression on Shrub's face while he's doing his thing. It's like a scene from a New York City subway. All he needs is the long raincoat.

    I know this kind of nastiness isn't about sex, but it's not entirely clear to me what it is about. I realize Bush has a compulsive need to humiliate or at least denigrate those who make him feel inadequate or inferior (his natural condition) but this is ridiculous. Why should the female chancellor of Germany be singled out for such an extreme dose of Shrub's Oedipal pathologies?

    Hmmm. I guess the question kind of answers itself. Barbara Bush, what the hell have you unleashed on the world?


    I assume Billmon would go along with giving Barbara to the arabs who "just want our women before they blow us up." These political trade-offs are wrenching but some times you just have to bite the bullet and be done with it.

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  110. Anonymous6:51 PM

    I meant the ambiguities, sorry. I am also concerned about ethnic cleansing, when it happens.

    Ambiguity is the sweet and sour spice of life, or something.

    Glenn... Those on the Right have no problem criticizing the abuses of left-wing governments, and those on the Left have no problem criticizing right-wing abuses. It's when the abuses are on their side that the difficulty seems to arise.

    True. I didn't delve into this, but should have. Perhaps China is a better example. But you are probably onto something there. We are so reflexively put into the "binary mode" by the right (manichean) that we have generally been unable to voice a specific objection. Anything other than blanket condemnation is viewed as support for all the policies of any country X. Cuba is a good case in point. Venezuela even. Many of us have been suspicious of some of the claims made by our government in the past WRT to countries like Cuba. One can only wonder what life would be like in Cuba today if our policy towards that country had been relaxed a bit as it has been with Vietnam. Democracy and freedom seem to spread best by dialogue and trade, not by guns and embargos.

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  111. Anonymous6:56 PM

    Israel’s pet Marc Rich and Palestine’s pet Yasser Arafat both profited handsomely from the hatred between the masses.

    I wish to make money with magic act involving bags of deadly poison gas, a small mountain cat, and Israeli and Palestinian flags.

    If the act failed than perhaps I would be invited to O’Reilly Spin Factor as a representative of the “far left.”

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  112. Anonymous7:01 PM

    Heh.

    The Syrian Amb. to the U.N. just tried to draw a parallel between Hezbollah and George Washington and the American Revolution on Tweety's show. Matthews reminded him that Washington didn't yadda, yadda... Poor guy.

    He should have gone with the Custer and the indians.

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  113. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  114. Shouldn't those on the Left who believe in the supremacy of international law and U.N. resolutions be unequivocally condemning Hezbollah, which ought to be disbanded if U.N. Resolutions are complied with and who, by definition, are guilty of war crimes for engaging in these acts in violation of those resolutions?

    Nope.

    Firstly, Hizbollah's militia should be disbanded.

    Secondly, the resolution is a call to the Lebanese government. Is it actually able to disband the Hizbollah militia?

    And lastly, and importantly, the distinction between war crimes and simple mass murder doesn't rest on the existence of UN resolutions or not.

    If I had god-like powers, I'd offer a deal - every single Hizbollah member who fired those rockets on trial in an Israeli civilian court on charges of (attempted) murder, in exchange for the Israelis who ordered the bombing of civilian areas on trial in Geneva for war crimes.

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  115. Anonymous7:52 PM

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  116. Conveniently missing from the discourse is the siege Israel imposed on the Gaza Strip since May 2006. The Palestinians ‘crime’ that fomented the blockade was not rocket attacks or kidnapped Israeli soldiers, rather it was because: 1) Palestinians democratically electing Hamas into power and 2) Hamas was finally coming to terms with Fatah on a joint agreement to recognize Israel and the two state solution. A unified Hamas and Fatah and a peace agreement was the last thing Israel wanted, believe me it was, and the only way out of it was to bomb themselves out of it (read Israel Shahak’s book Open Secrets: Israel Nuclear and Foreign Policies published in 1997; Israel has been planning for this military offensive since 1992…can’t let a peace agreements get in the way can we). In response to this development, since early May 2006, Israel defense forces proceeded to manufacture an economic/humanitarian crisis by cutting the inflow of food and fuel into Gaza at checkpoints, which by the way are all controlled by Israel. This act of provocation was intended to foment unrest between competing political parties within Gaza, and if you remember it worked.. Then around May 23rd, Israel implemented a total lockdown of Gaza…nothing was allowed in or out, foreign aid was stopped, and tax revenue generated by Palestinians were withheld by Israel. The only thing Palestinians could survive on was the medicine Israel graciously allowed thru. Then to add to the humanitarian misery, Israel’s defense force proceeded to randomly lob numerous artillery shells and rockets into Gaza for the sole purpose of terrorizing the population and hope of a united government. As of June 10th over 6,000 artillery shells were shot into Gaza, by the end of June well over 10,000.

    http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=ENGMDE150492006

    How could anyone not recognize this as a clear act provocation? For someone living under these conditions, what would be a rational response? Just sit there and take it, or fight back?

    Then finally on June 25th, Palestinians capture Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit and the rest is history.

    History will show that our media and our leaders have effectively fostered ignorance over our collective consciousness that only works to isolate the United States. America better wake up before it’s to late.

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  117. Thank you dr. rudy kastner-all very excellent points.

    And btw, if you were an Arab in Lebanon in 1982, what would you do after this? Lay down and die, or gather yourselves together into the "Party of God.?"

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  118. Wow! HWSNBN is not only the smartest shyster on Unclaimed Territory, he's a psychic to boot:

    Many waving the Mexican flags were demanding the right to settle out country and use our services while remaining loyal Mexicans.

    Seeing as he can read minds, I'm sure he knows already what I'm thinking (and gesticulating), so I'll spare the lurkers our "private communication"....

    Cheers,

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  119. Anonymous8:35 PM

    It seems as if these fascist cretins you've been fighting with for the past few weeks are now serving as useful idiots for a rather clever dig at "the left".

    Blow a lot of smoke against Atlas Pam, Michelle Malkin and the knuckle draggers at LGF, then when everybody is distracted go for the real target, the lack of Hezbollah's compliance with UN Resolution 1559 and the "left's" hypocrisy on not calling them on it.

    I think the first difficulty you run into on this is that, like Lebanon, the "left" is not a sovereign state and doesn't have anything approaching unity. For the most part, the "democratic left" (as represented by the Daily Kos crowd) likes UN Resolutions but the hard left detests the UN almost as much as the right, seeing it as a tool of American imperialism. The UN is also unpopular in the Arab world because of the blockade of Iraq in the 1990s.

    To be perfectly honest, as someone who considers himself to be on the far left, I have no answer for you question about UN Resolution 1559 but my gut feeling tells me that the worst possible outcome is an Israeli ground war followed by a long, Iraqi style insurgency against the occupation.

    This can only mean hundreds of Israeli military casualties, probably tens of thousands of Lebanese civilian casualties, and, in the end, Lebanon transformed into a Shiite theocracy as surely as Iraq is being transformed into a Shiite theocracy.

    The tragic thing is that this worst possible outcome seems to be exactly what Hezbollah, the Iranians, the Israeli right and the American neoconservatives all want. They all think they can win.

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  120. Blow a lot of smoke against Atlas Pam, Michelle Malkin and the knuckle draggers at LGF, then when everybody is distracted go for the real target, the lack of Hezbollah's compliance with UN Resolution 1559 and the "left's" hypocrisy on not calling them on it.

    Yep - that was my grand strategy all along. Blog for 9 months, and then, when nobody expected it, start attacking Hezbollah's non-compliance with 1559.

    I dislike those who blindly defend the U.S. in every case, or who blindly defend George Bush, or who blindly defend Israel. But to me, the opposite side of the same coin is those who criticize the U.S. or Israel in every case while always defending its enemies. I find that no more noble or intellectually honest.

    I think the first difficulty you run into on this is that, like Lebanon, the "left" is not a sovereign state and doesn't have anything approaching unity. For the most part, the "democratic left" (as represented by the Daily Kos crowd) likes UN Resolutions but the hard left detests the UN almost as much as the right, seeing it as a tool of American imperialism.

    I'm well aware of that. That is why I was extremely specific about the ideas I was referring to and criticizing, rather than sloppily referring in my post to the "Left," recognizing, as I do, that there is no way to talk about the "Left" as a monolith. That's why I did not do that.

    To be perfectly honest, as someone who considers himself to be on the far left, I have no answer for you question about UN Resolution 1559 but my gut feeling tells me that the worst possible outcome is an Israeli ground war followed by a long, Iraqi style insurgency against the occupation.

    I don't really know enough about the miltiary issues to say whether Israel will have an easier time cleaning out Hezbollah than the U.S. has had cleaning out Iraqi insurgents or, for that matter, than the Israelis had in Lebanon the last time. Nor do I know the level of brutality and civilian death they would have to cause in order to accomplish, if they can accomplish it.

    I also think there is an extremely high liklihood that if the war expands beyond Lebanon, the U.S. will get dragged into it - either deliberately or unintentionally. So I think this is a heinous situation all the way around.

    Nonetheless, the discussion has pretty much now arrived at the point where I thought it would - with the appearance of those who think Israel is the Root of All Evil clashing with those who think Israel can do no wrong - but it took longer than I thought it would to get to that point, and it seems that many people across the ideological spectrum have a more sophisticated and balanced view of things, so maybe that's an encouraging sign.

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  121. Anonymous8:49 PM

    Comment Deleted
    This post has been removed by the blog administrator.


    dipshit back again?

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  122. the hidden imam:

    Ultimately, people like you are hopeless. You choose not to exercise any perspective. Every wrong is equal to every other wrong. Gradations don't matter....

    Au contraire, mon ami. I and many others here do have a perspective. The perspective is this: You seem to think that your favourite "wrongs" are better than those of others. I and at least some here think you're both wrong. Got it?

    Cheers,

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  123. Anonymous8:58 PM

    Yep - that was my grand strategy all along. Blog for 9 months, and then, when nobody expected it, start attacking Hezbollah's non-compliance with 1559.


    Be carefull glenn, as you will remember from the whole frisch/misha thing, some people just don't get sarcasm:)

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  124. From Yithak Laor, writing for Haaretz:

    The director of the American Jewish Committee's Israel/Middle East Office, Eran Lerman, is already recommending going to war against Syria. Anyone who is listening to talk about the need to attack Syria (in the name of "strategy") realizes that for those people, "strategy" means enlarging the circle of hostilities, including harming civilians. What Israel's "strategists" have to offer is the destruction of yet another country. Let us set aside the generation that is growing up in front of the television. Let us set aside the horrors that are being carried out in the name of all of us. It is enough to see the destruction of Iraq and its results. The Americans do not intend to live in this region, but we do live here. And did the trigger finger in the North think about the victims in the North, about the fate of the captives? No. This trigger finger thought in terms of "who will stick more to whom." Who can restrain the army? Only Israeli opposition. The heads of the army are even warning of such opposition. That is, it is not yet too late.

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  125. Anonymous9:03 PM

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  126. It is true, I do hold Israel to a higher standard than I do the Arabs, and I don't think this makes me a Jew hater. (I prefer the term "Jew Hater" to anti-Semite in an Arab-Israeli context because some people disingenuously claim that there is no anit-Semitism involved because Arabs are also Semites).

    Just as I believe we should extend basic humanitarian treatment to captured terrorists even when the don't extend anything of the our soldiers, I hold Israeli to higher standards than the Arabs because I basically identify with them and regard Israel as an enlightened, democratic, "Western" power and expect it to act like one. My expectations of Arabs are (I confess) not so high. Far from indicating a bigotry against Israelis/Jews, I think this can more plausibly be called bigotry against Arabs.

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  127. Anonymous9:07 PM

    Billmon's post On War has some interesting observations by military analyst William S. Lind (and himself, of course) on the historical significance of the recent Hizbullah attacks/Israeli retaliations.

    Whatever you think of Nasrallah's qualities as a human being, he appears to be an astute general, and possibly an astute politician as well. Certainly Lind seems to think that he has outmaneuvered the IDF and the Knesset, and may in fact create an untenable military/political situation for both Israel and the United States.

    This is what I've feared since I first read descriptions of the unfolding situation in Lebanon. The simple truth is, Israel can't go in, and they can't stay out. Unless the U.N. minus the U.S. can arrange something, escalation -- one not to the U.S./Israeli advantage -- may be in the offing.

    If Israel succeeds in hurting Hizbullah bad enough in the coming days -- and that's by no means assured, I think -- Nasrallah can acquiesce to U.N intervention, and perhaps return to fight another day. That's assuming the Israelis will allow it, of course, but it does seem, at this point, that he has them over a barrel.

    I'm sorry, Glenn, to insert this into a discussion of international law and war crimes. As I said upthread, I agree with you completely on that subject.

    This may well be one of those cases, however, when events have overtaken the law to such a degree that we'll be amazed, and horrified, by what's to come.

    Time will tell, but personally, I'm very worried.

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  128. dipshit back again?

    Yes, the deleted posts are all from the "Faux liberal" obsessive who is now linking to adolescent bathroom photographs.

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  129. Anonymous9:23 PM


    the cynic librarian says:

    Then stop it. Very simple to stop the paranoia and terrorism. Sit down at the table and get something done. Respect the Palestinians as human beings... that'll be a start at least. Recognize that Israel's leaders have made some very bad decisions...


    You make it sound so easy! Perhaps. But we know what's missing don't we? Theme Music. Yep. I'm totally serious. To get this show off the ground and the VRWNM going at full gallop, Theme Music is a requirement.

    With one word from someone at the top, this entire shabang could be done in under three episodes. Scarey, isn't it?

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  130. So what exactly is Iran's role in Hezbollah? A lot of disinformation is coming out in the US and Israeli press about this. Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies says (via Mojo blog) that we should be wary of the wild claims about Iranian influence on Hezbollah made by the neocons and Israeli hawks.

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  131. Anonymous10:09 PM

    Let's also not forget that when a military target is in the midst of a civilian community, it's not easy to target the enemy without any civilian casualties.
    But isn't this even more true when your only weapon is inaccurate rockets fired from dozens of miles away as it is when you have a state-of-the-art American-funded high-tech military? And yet we (rightly, IMO) don't consider this a valid excuse for Hezbollah's sloppy targeting. If you can't attack without killing innocent people, *you shouldn't attack at all*. The right of self-defense does not extend to spraying an entire crowd with machine-gun fire because there is a sniper in it somewhere.

    Of course, given our history, it sounds absurd for an American to say that; the one country that has nuked entire cities, civilian populations and all, is hardly in a position to give anyone else lessons on concern for civilian casualties. But someone ought to say it, or we're just going to see more massacres on both sides.

    Frankly, I think "a plague on both your houses" is the only reasonable response at this point. Neither side has demonstrated any willingness to abide by U.N. resolutions or negotiate in good faith. (The U.N. is not a world government and its resolutions are not binding on anyone, but they do express the views of the community of other nations and are therefore a potential starting point for negotiations.)

    If an international force (U.N. or otherwise) does intervene, I sincerely hope that they disarm *both* Hezbollah *and* the IDF and don't give either of them any weapons back until they demonstrate an ability to use them responsibly, which is going to be a long time.

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  132. Speaking of neocons, here's an interesting discussion of Leo Strauss (via Leiter via Balkin), the father of neoconism. The posting features a letter from Strauss wherein he waxes poetic about what's right with fascism and how much he despises the democratic notion of the rule of law. Sound familiar?

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  133. Anonymous10:55 PM

    I don't really know enough about the miltiary issues to say whether Israel will have an easier time cleaning out Hezbollah than the U.S. has had cleaning out Iraqi insurgents or, for that matter, than the Israelis had in Lebanon the last time. Nor do I know the level of brutality and civilian death they would have to cause in order to accomplish, if they can accomplish it.


    I don't think either the Israelis or Hezbollah now it either. But I do think that both sides are thinking strategically and have a Plan A and Plan B.

    For Hezbollah:

    Plan A: Draw the Israelis into a ground war in Lebanon. Bring on the pain Sunni Triangle style. Since Israel has neither the brute size nor strength of the USA, a protected occupation can quite possibly bleed them to the point where a larger, regional conflict might just destroy them after all. Hope the USA is too bogged down in Iraq and that Americans in general are too busy hating on Mexicans to want to bail the Israelis out 1973 style. Take over Lebanon and make it Iran west.

    Plan B: Grab a couple of soldiers. Hit one of their gunboats. Make them do something stupid like take it out on Lebanon as a whole. Wait it out. Lose your rocket launchers and some of your ability to get weapons from Syria but, in the end, get a few thousand Palestinian prisoners back for your hostages and increase your prestige in the eyes of the Muslim world. Be one step closer to that Shiite theocracy in Lebanon.

    For the Israelis:

    Plan A: Destroy Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon. Bring the USA closer to a confrontation with the Israelis.

    Plan B: Take over the water rights in Southern Lebanon. Break up the infrastructure in Lebanon. Starve out and soften up Hezbollah with a 1990s Iraq style blockade.

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  134. After all, we have every reason to hold America to a higher standard. We want it to be a beacon of hope and promise for the world. Why the hell should we settle for comparing it favorably to Burma or Kuwait?

    I agree with what you're saying, Paul. I spend a lot of my time talking about the flaws and failings of our government rather than, say, the failures of Syria or China - and the fact that our failures may not be as severe as theirs is no comfort, nor should it preclude the focus being on our own failures, for the reasons you said.

    But there is a difference between, on the one hand, focusing on our own country's flaws because they're ours and we can and should do something about them, and on the other hand, operating from the premise that our own country is objectively worse, more immoral, and always wrong. Perhaps the difference is subjective and not susceptible to clear definition, but I feel pretty confidant that I know it when I see it.

    I tend to err on the side of assuming someone is not guilty of that. I won't assume they are until I see pretty conclusive evidence of it, for the reasons you alluded to. But that syndrome is out there, and it's not all that rare, and I really do see it as being the same syndrome as those who blindly defend this country and its leaders.

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  135. Anonymous10:57 PM

    That's "Bring the USA closer to a confrontation with the IRANIANS" obviously.

    Although the Freudian slip might be closer to what actually happens.

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  136. Anonymous10:58 PM

    So Glenn...

    Are Hezbollah and Hamas enemies of the United States?

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  137. Anonymous11:07 PM

    But then again we sold arms to the Iranians (and through the Israelis) in the 1980s and a lot of the neocons (eg Michael Ladeen) have Iranian ties so when it comes to Iran a lot of bullshit is flying around too.

    Personally I think invading Iraq has made the United States a very good friend of the Iranians indeed.

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  138. Anonymous11:14 PM

    Another thing to take into account that I haven't seen discussed very much.

    The longer this goes on and the more it looks as if the regional Sunni powers (Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia) are backing down to the Israelis, the more it strengthens the Al Qaeda like elements in those countries.

    The neocons who are so giddy about the governments of these states trying not to support Hezbollah should be careful what they wish for.

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  139. Anonymous11:42 PM

    Glenn, how about commenting on this Murray Waas story? Chimpy personally halts an investigation into his lawlessness.

    I am reading Dean's book at the moment and he is wrong about one thing - we are indeed suffering under a fascist regime, right now.

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  140. Anonymous12:03 AM

    Perhaps some of the Arab regimes have been so quick with condemnations of Hezbollah because it is viewed as a greater internal threat to their own governements. Anyone have any ideas about this?

    From TPM and other foreign news sources and aggregators:

    Palestinian injuries suggest Israel is using chemical weapons in Gaza

    CRISIS IN THE MIDDLE EAST: UNDER FIRE
    Children and hospitals hit by Israeli jets


    Israel Violates Law on U.S. Weapons in Mideast
    Thalif Deen

    UNITED NATIONS, Jul 17 (IPS) - Israel is in violation of U.S. arms control laws for deploying U.S.-made fighter planes, combat helicopters and missiles to kill civilians and destroy Lebanon's infrastructure in the ongoing six-day devastation of that militarily-weak country.

    U.N.: 14,000 Iraqis killed in 2006

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  141. Anonymous12:07 AM

    the cynic librarian said...
    Speaking of neocons, here's an interesting discussion of Leo Strauss (via Leiter via Balkin), the father of neoconism. The posting features a letter from Strauss wherein he waxes poetic about what's right with fascism and how much he despises the democratic notion of the rule of law. Sound familiar?


    That was fascinating. I read all the comments as well, not that I was familiar with every obscure name dropped. I got there through a post at The American Prospect but I read the Leiter Report as well.

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  142. Anonymous12:10 AM

    Stanley W. Rogouski:

    With regard to Plans A and B, I'm reminded of the title of Glenn's book, amended to read:

    How Would a Warrior Act?

    How, in particular, would an intelligent, talented, and experienced partisan act who came to maturity during years of desperate, existential struggle with implacable enemies in a place -- the Middle East -- which absolutely swarms with them.

    Despite having an what I believe to be an active and nuanced imagination, I really have no clue. I think of Moshe Dayan, Yitzhak Rabin, and Golda Meier because their lives were so well documented for American audiences, but I also think of Anwar Sadat and the younger Yassir Arafat, as well as Hanan Ashrawi.

    As defenders of Israel have often pointed out here, Americans have no idea what it's like to go the office every day knowing that mortal enemies are only eight minutes away by fighter-bomber, and that the bus passing outside your window may stop and pick up 15 pounds of plastique at the next stop.

    Neither do we know what it's like to try and find weapons on the international market, and smuggle them in to your militia through an international blockade, knowing that no matter what you manage to get your hands on, it will never match the supersonic fighters, armored helicopter gunships and guided missiles of your enemy.

    It's not surprising, I suppose, that these men have a feral cleverness, and a personal fatalism that we can't imagine, let alone match. Hard men, as Billmon puts it.

    It does seem to me, though, that if we really want to be players in this arena, we might do better by mothballing half our aircraft carrier battle groups, and spending the money to send the brightest, most ambitious young men and women we can out to live in places like this, to learn the languages and the cultures, and to observe what people faced with such pressures think about being alive. We should also listen to what they make of these observations when they return, promote them if they work in government, encourage them to run for office if they don't.

    As it is, even the best and brightest of us are often at a loss. (Not to mention, of course, the venal morons that we prefer to elect to office at the moment.)

    I think the Brits, in their heyday, did this pretty well. It didn't save them of course, but it may have helped let them down easy when their day was done.

    Frankly, we should be so lucky.

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  143. Anonymous12:22 AM

    Former Christian Coalition leader Ralph Reed conceded defeat about 9:50 p.m. in Georgia’s Republican primary for lieutenant governor.

    “Tonight my candidacy for lieutenant governor comes to an end,” he said.


    Perhaps the balance of power WRT to the party in power won't change, but the wingnuts are going down to defeat all over, be they Liebermans or Reeds. I don't mind if sane Republicans (and Democrats) can gain control over their respective parties. It's still better than the madness we have now.

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  144. Anonymous12:26 AM

    I think the Brits, in their heyday, did this pretty well. It didn't save them of course, but it may have helped let them down easy when their day was done.

    The Brits were always better at empire than the US will ever be. Even they wisely gave it up last century. It almost bankrupted and ruined them. The Israelis no longer need to worry about enemy aircraft. They have destroyed ever air force in the area repeatedly. Only a suicidal maniac would overfly Israel.

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  145. Anonymous12:34 AM

    cynic librarian

    damn

    you are one good resource.

    the article on strauss is very informative for me.

    philosophy, of course, like ethics "questions" is a refuge for scoundrels.

    but it is important to know the background in this case.

    thanks.

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  146. Anonymous12:39 AM

    Glenn....I tend to err on the side of assuming someone is not guilty of that. I won't assume they are until I see pretty conclusive evidence of it, for the reasons you alluded to. But that syndrome is out there, and it's not all that rare, and I really do see it as being the same syndrome as those who blindly defend this country and its leaders.

    I tend to side with the underdogs if they aren't foaming at the mouth and rabid and irrationally mad. Perhaps that's a "leftish" predilection. I always thought of it as an "American" ideal.

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  147. Anonymous12:41 AM

    Anonymous: Only a suicidal maniac would overfly Israel.

    True enough now, I suppose -- although Israelis themselves aren't as sure about this as you seem to be. Certainly not so true in 1967. Even in 1973, one couldn't be absolutely sure, especially after Egyptian SAM batteries had, as I heard the head of the IDF air force say once in an interview, "bent the wing" of the air force.

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  148. William Timberman said:
    I think the Brits, in their heyday, did this pretty well. It didn't save them of course, but it may have helped let them down easy when their day was done.

    Frankly, we should be so lucky.


    Yes, wouldn't it be nice if we could just pick up our toys and go home? No, America will never "go home" in peace, ie, opt out of the whirlwind we have reaped and return to the once great promise of our land. Contrary to impressions of me that may have been formed on this board, I am, shamefully at times, still in love with that promise, still enamored of the old patriotic canards of America the Beautiful (for indeed she is, isn't she?)Land of the Free, Home of the Brave. Baseball and apple pie, baby, that's me. I still cry over the Declaration of Independence and all of the words of the Founding Fathers, still wise and relevant lo these 2 plus centuries later. And that is the thing. The promises and ideals of our founding have been swept away into the dustbin of history and those of us who would hold America to those ideals are excoriated for actually hating the America we are so desperately trying to retrieve Perhaps our language is harsh at times. Should we retreat to the mealy mouth rhetoric of the Democratic party, the depraved and cowardly collaborators in the demise of our country? Should we fall back and hide behind a gloss of civility, pretending the rules of the game haven't changed?

    Should we (those of us who take offense at war crimes committed by ourselves and our allies) take our toys and go home to our apple pies and baseball games? (That's a lot of fun, I admit, and I don't neglect the pleasures our country still has to offer.) Or should we also demand that the friends and allies of our country also live up to our ideals, or else we'll forsake them until they do? Are we not complicit in the crimes of our allies when they are supported by us financially, militarily, and politically? If we are, as individuals, quiet about the horrors we plainly see, someone, somewhere, somewhow,(God?) will hold us to account. I for one, do not intend to be among the ranks of those so condemned, as the cries and suffering of untold numbers of dead and dying, now and in the past, trumps my sentimental love for this land of ours, and when my time comes, I will lay down easy.

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  149. An excellent analysis of the potentials/pitfalls in Israel's invasion of Lebanon by Daniel Levy, policy director of the Geneva Initiative and former Barak adviser:

    . . .And this brings us to the core of it all. . . many in the neo-con camp are talking about root causes right now, the evil and unshakable hostility of the Iranian and Syrian regimes to Israel, the product of bad systems and regimes populated by bad people with bad ideologies. That may be so, but why the (accurate) assumption on their part that turning the vitriol against Israel may win widespread sympathy and admiration in the Muslim world and beyond and be difficult for others in that region to staunchly oppose? Why the resentment, anger and ease of mass mobilization?

    Yes, for some the answer is Israel's Jewish character, but for many many others, none fanatics, it's a one word answer -- Palestine. The Palestinian cause, the injustice and hypocrisy of the US and West is a genuine grievance for millions worldwide, for whom a particular policy not a nation or a religion are the problem. Others abuse and use that – and will continue to do so, with effect, until the conflict is resolved. If post-crisis there is no return to dealing with the core issues on the Israeli-Palestinian front and moves towards negotiations aimed at resolving the conflict, then everyone should recognize that we are simply beginning the countdown to the next escalation.


    The question is, after Lebanon is laid waste and Israel is safely ensconced in southern Lebanon, how much good will should or will many have in believing that Israel wants peace?

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  150. Anonymous12:57 AM

    Sunny, I do think you've misunderstood me, but no matter. You're obviously a patriot, and the sentiments you express come close enough to mine for me feel a genuine kinship with you.

    Peace.

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  151. IDF in southern Lebanon.

    I said earlier:

    Or perhaps, combining this with the advance warnings given to target areas, just an attempt to chase out as much of the civilian population as possible before a ground invasion .... oooops, silly me, revealing tactical plans. My bad. I didn't say nuthin '.....

    Now someone's going to be really mad. Maybe HWSNBN will accuse me of treason.

    Cheers,

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  152. Anonymous1:02 AM

    I just ran across this while checking my email Israel moves ground troops into Lebanon.

    There is a returning blogger at the chron -- Gazawia -- I haven't commented yet, but probably will.

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  153. No no, William, I'm sorry. I only used your phrase as a device to lauch my rant. I had, have no doubt from your comments that you are a patriot, and I am sorry if I left you with the impression that I was ranting about you or what you said. I only meant to smack down those who would question why I and others criticize America.

    Peace to you and yours as well.

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  154. Anonymous1:04 AM

    "also, i think israel's attack on lebanon (or, if you prefer, lebanon's attack on israel) may have finally put to rest the old "democracies dont attack democracies" adage"


    We can only pray.

    Given the relatively short history of the relatively small number of democracies that exist, and the fact that the Nazi and Communist boogeymen have been around to unify many of these "democracies" over the last centuy, I've always felt it was rather premature to generalize what could well be a statistical and/or situational fluke.

    Of course, 50% of people are linear thinkers who can't handle functions of more than a couple of variables.

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  155. Interesting discussion of the birth of terrorist methods in Ireland and its migration to Palestine via Zionist revisionists. One thing I found out here is that Ehud Olmert is a Zionist revisionist in the tradition of Manehm Begin.

    PS disregrd the Xtian stuff at the end.

    ReplyDelete
  156. Anonymous1:20 AM

    Ralph Reed falls in Georgia GOP primary
    By Marc Caputo

    ATLANTA - Ralph Reed, the vote shepherd of Southern evangelicals in President Bush's two election wins, fell victim to nagging charges of hypocrisy and corruption Tuesday night when Georgia Republicans unexpectedly nominated a no-name state senator to be their party's nominee for lieutenant governor.

    Reed's loss followed weeks of bruising attacks from Sen. Casey Cagle, who won 55 percent to 45 percent after running numerous television ads bashing the former Christian Coalition chief for accepting millions of dollars to galvanize Christians against gambling initiatives that were opposed by the Indian gaming clients of Reed's longtime friend, indicted lobbyist Jack Abramoff.

    The boyish-looking Reed was expected to easily win the race when he first entered it, but as Abramoff lobbying scandals embroiled Washington, D.C., a number of state and national Republicans fretted over the effectiveness of Democratic attacks about the so-called "Republican culture of corruption." Reed said he was unaware that Abramoff's antigambling initiative was funded with Indian gaming money.

    "This is a major message to Republicans nationwide: Don't run on the faith-based ticket if someone can make you look like a hypocrite," said Matt Towery, a former Newt Gingrich strategist and chairman of the Atlanta-based polling and media firm InsiderAdvantage.

    "What we've seen tonight in Georgia is the appearance of only the most core Republican base, which is not as religious-right as America thinks," Towery said. "These are businessmen and women, and to many of them Ralph Reed didn't reflect their image."

    Towery and others were surprised by Reed's defeat, considering he excelled at turning out the vote, and had the backing of national figures like former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani and former U.S. Sen. Zell Miller. He also had solid name identification among voters, having appeared on the cover of Time magazine in 1995 at the age of 33 when he was executive director of the national Christian Coalition.

    (...)

    "We couldn't lose on this one," said state Democratic Party Chairman Bobby Kahn. "If Reed lost, it showed the Abramoff scandal had legs nationally, and if he won, we could easily put a face to the Reed-Perdue-Abramoff ticket."

    (...)

    Nationally, Republican strategists like Ed Rollins, an architect of Ronald Reagan's legacy, said they're worried about voters like Lindsey and the perception that Republicans can't be trusted.

    Rollins resigned last year as advisor to the U.S. Senate campaign of Florida Congresswoman Katherine Harris. He said she made numerous misstatements about her connection to an indicted defense contractor named Mitchell Wade, who funneled illegal campaign contributions to her. Rollins said the FBI recently spoke with him about the case, but he declined to elaborate.

    Rollins said Reed, like Harris, would have been dragged down by scandal.

    "It was a win-win for the Democrats," Rollins said. "With the nomination, he was a big target. With his loss, he's a party leader who couldn't win the very state that he knew like the back of his hand."

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  157. Anonymous1:21 AM

    Arne:

    You are absolutely, positively, on a roll today. I think you'd make an excellent Secretary of Defense. Shall we call the White House and tell 'em you're available? (I'm sure your fiancee would be deeelighted.) :-)

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  158. Anonymous1:25 AM

    the cynic librarian said...
    Interesting discussion of the birth of terrorist methods in Ireland and its migration to Palestine via Zionist revisionists. One thing I found out here is that Ehud Olmert is a Zionist revisionist in the tradition of Manehm Begin.


    Is this anti-semitic in your view?

    I'm not being serious, but some will argue that it is.

    Sicarii may be the first recorded instance of a "terrorist group". That is not to say it is the first terrorist group in all of history.

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  159. Anonymous1:32 AM

    Let me preface by saying that I do NOT want to go to war with, or even attack Iran, in anyways over this.


    That being said, I really think that this has been orchastrated by Iran and is intended to deter us from attacking them by sending us (the US) the message "Don't think you can bomb our nuclear facilities then walk away and that will be the end of it. It won't."


    The danger is that it could spark the war it was meant to avoid, although they are probably prepared to pull back before then and think (perhaps wrongly) that they can keep that from happening. The benefits are that it may well dissuade us from attacking them, or even get us involved in Lebanon and further degrade our ability to strike them even if we wanted too. In short, it is exactly the kind of thing that powers have traditionally used their proxies to accomplish.

    If true, the reaction of Washington could be interpreted as an attempt to "call their bluff" by adopting a relatively calm facade as simply saying "Israel must defend itself" - like when you say "it doesn't hurt" when it really does but you want to look strong and not appear phased.

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  160. anon: Is this anti-semitic in your view?

    You mean the article or my statement that Olmert is a Zionist revisionist?

    The blog posting does end with "All the same keep all the people of the Middle East Christians, Muslims and Jews alike in your prayers." \

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  161. Anonymous1:37 AM

    William Timberman said...
    Anonymous: Only a suicidal maniac would overfly Israel.

    True enough now, I suppose -- although Israelis themselves aren't as sure about this as you seem to be. Certainly not so true in 1967. Even in 1973, one couldn't be absolutely sure, especially after Egyptian SAM batteries had, as I heard the head of the IDF air force say once in an interview, "bent the wing" of the air force.


    Israel has achieved total air dominance in their local theater. And the west, us, has achieved total air dominance of any theater of operations globally. We are virtually unchallenged on the sea and in the air by anyone. And so lunatics have dreams of empire...

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  162. Anonymous1:41 AM

    the cynic librarian said...
    anon: Is this anti-semitic in your view?


    No. Sicarii. The fact that the very first "terrorists" in recorded history appear to have been Jewish zealots resisting Rome.

    It's irony perhaps, but not anti-semitism. Some might accuse one of anti-semitism or bias in pointing this out.

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  163. Anonymous1:48 AM

    William Timberman said...
    Arne:

    You are absolutely, positively, on a roll today. I think you'd make an excellent Secretary of Defense. Shall we call the White House and tell 'em you're available? (I'm sure your fiancee would be deeelighted.) :-)


    You haven't seen Arne on a real roll until the weekend. When he says "Cheers" then he really means it.

    ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  164. anon, the sicarii were fighting Roman persecution and occupation of Israel. Their methods were certainly terrorist in nature--assassination of collaborators and Roamns--but then their opponents were vicious in putting down opposition. It's interesting to note that among jesus' followers were some sicarii, a fact that many Xtians conveniently forget.

    This does not imply, however, that Jesus advocated those methods nor that he approved of them. The sicarii fomented several general rebellions against Roman rule, the most memorable one being documented by Jospehus in his Jewish Wars, which describes the siege and eventual leveling of Jerualem and the Second Temple by the Romans.

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  165. Anonymous1:58 AM

    I tend to side with the underdogs if they aren't foaming at the mouth and rabid and irrationally mad. Perhaps that's a "leftish" predilection.

    I understand, but I think you are being naive. Before you pick "sides" it is important to neutrally evaluate the situation and what lead up to it.

    I know how, when you walk in on the middle of a fight and see a big guy beating a smaller guy you are tempted to assume its a straightforward case of bullying and jump in to help the small guy. However, I have also been around enough to know that this can often by quite incorrect. In fact, I have been involved in a few almost perfect counter-examples - both cases where my friends and I were forced into a fight by guys smaller than us, and where I had to drag my small friend away from a pummeling I thought he probably deserved.

    "Short mans disease" is a common term to describe a relatively common behavior - a shorter guy who overcompensates by intentionally picking fights with guys larger than himself. I have seen this too many times to think of it as aberrant behavior and I have learned that size has little to do with aggression.

    Then you have a type of person excemplified by my brother - who learned that he could get me in trouble by hitting first and then stoping when my parents arrived so that the only person they saw throwing punches was me. They were perfect patsies and always came down on me much harder ... god his smirk drove me nuts.

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  166. william timberman:

    Arne: You are absolutely, positively, on a roll today....

    T'was nada. Too frikkin' obvious and plenty of others making the same call.

    ... I think you'd make an excellent Secretary of Defense. Shall we call the White House and tell 'em you're available? (I'm sure your fiancee would be deeelighted.)

    While she hasn't met Rummy (and I certainly haven't; which is probably fortunate as I don't think I could have held my pledge and not talked politics ... or worse), she has heard plenty about him, and the stories of his -- ummm, "meddlesome" -- ways seem to be accurate. His SoD career should have been little surprise to those in the know.

    Sadly, I'll have to decline your nomination; I'm not a U.S. citizen and have no immediate plans to change that. That disqualification, and the fact that I actually know WTF I'm doing.

    Cheers,

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  167. Anonymous2:16 AM

    Anon @ 1:58,

    Agreed. But I was referring more to the idea of the down-trodden masses being oppressed by the more powerful elite minortities as is so often the case. The Nazis thought of themselves as underdogs, and were for much of their history. They played that card rather well, right into power. Bar room brawls and all. I don't think I was going there. Like Glenn knows the "blind supporters or haters" when he sees them, I like to think I know the true underdogs when I see them. It's never a good idea to intervene in a fracas until you know the particulars. Statistically, more cops got killed or injured responding to domestic disturbances than on any other call. Sometimes at the hands of the "victim" they went to assist.

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  168. Anonymous2:17 AM

    Anonymous: Israel has achieved total air dominance in their local theater. And the west, us, has achieved total air dominance of any theater of operations globally. We are virtually unchallenged on the sea and in the air by anyone. And so lunatics have dreams of empire...

    Do I detect irony here? (I'm a little slow this evening.)

    Anyway, in case my antennae are returning a false positive, total air dominance means that your forces can operate with impunity on the ground, which is a far cry from never being engaged by enemy aircraft. AWACS, real-time satellite imagery and constant monitoring by people on the ground can prevent mass air attacks, but not one-offs, particularly in such a small area as the Middle East.

    I'm reminded of the old slogan from the Thirties: The bomber will always get through. Still true today, I'm afraid. It just takes one moment of inattention, one unexpected workstation reboot -- what're generally called "fuck-ups," in modern parlance, and the wolf can be at the door.

    In other words, total air dominance means no one can stop your tanks going out and smashing whatever you want, if you're feeling really BAD, but it doesn't mean that someone can't sneak in and drop a bomb on your grandma's house while you're gone, either, even though they might not get back home afterwards.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Anonymous2:35 AM

    Well, it seems pretty clear that this is the best blog on the Internet. For that, I congratulate Glenn on his accomplishment. I've learned more from Glenn and the commenters here on this blog about politics and modern history than I learned in my entire life up until I discovered this blog.

    Writers like Justin Raimondo, Paul Craig Roberts and Billmon are extraordinary. But for interaction between the readers of a blog and a host committed to taking the time to interact with them, does anyone know of any blog that even approaches this?

    I just wanted to point out that after you've been here for a while, you start to have genuine affection for many of the other commenters as well as for Glenn, our host.

    We write about events that are so distressing and heartbreaking that one could start hating humanity, and then one comes here and reads the words of about twenty or thirty regular commenters who are exemplary human beings (even a few of the pinkos--heh heh---who aren't bad people, simply misguided) and it's easy to start loving people again.

    I hope Dr. Rudy and William Timberlane and Sunny and others are planning to stay on this blog and keeping posting their extraordinary comments. I don't even have to mention cynic because this blog wouldn't be the same without him. I didn't mention everyone whose thoughts are so intereseting because I might leave someone out unintentionally.

    As for what Dr. Rudy (from whom I am learning a lot about the Mid-East just as I learned a lot about Soviet Russia from Hypatia) wrote:

    How could anyone not recognize this as a clear act provocation? For someone living under these conditions, what would be a rational response? Just sit there and take it, or fight back?

    I learned today for the first time (and someone can correct me if this is wrong) that there are literally thousands of Palestinian (and other) prisoners in Israeli jails many of whom have been there for 28 years! Twenty eight years!
    All I can think of is Les Miserables where a man stole a piece of bread and was hunted down for what seemed like a lifetime.

    These people did not have fair trials unless one would think that every prisoner at Gitmo got a fair trial if his guilt or innocence was decided by John Yoo by decree.

    So as for For someone living under these conditions, what would be a rational response? that's what I ask the people who think Hezbollah should not have captured those two Israelis (assuming they treat them well and don't harm them). What's the thinking? Human beings who are jailed for no reason for 28 years just because they are a different religion should just be written off? That's it? Where's the justice?

    This gets back to what William Timberlane said: about how when someone decides to go to war then all bets are off and he adopts a Winston Churchill stance.

    But then think about it: Did Hezbollah kill a bunch of people when they decided to try and get some of those prisoners back, many of whom are women? Did they send suicide bombers into Israel? Did they kill or torture the two Israeli soldiers they captured?

    No. They didn't do anything even remotely violent by taking those soldiers (I am talking about the present situation---I don't know much about Hezbollah and what they did in the past). Could we all agree they exercised surprising constraint if their goal was to get back some of the thousands of people who have been unfairly imprisoned for up to 28 years? Who was supposed to speak up for those people whose lives are being wasted?

    What would have been a more reasonable action? What else could they do? Write a letter to the Editor?

    Finally as for this:

    Speaking of neocons, here's an interesting discussion of Leo Strauss (via Leiter via Balkin), the father of neoconism. The posting features a letter from Strauss wherein he waxes poetic about what's right with fascism and how much he despises the democratic notion of the rule of law. Sound familiar?

    If I may sneak this into the comments section before that monstrous "Ayatollah Rand: MAKE IT STOP" fascist re-appears, I'd like to point out that Leo Strauss, the "father of neoconservatism"
    was Ayn Rand's intellectual enemy.

    Why? Because he was a fascist and she was an anti-authoritarian thinker who revered the Constitution and the Rule of Law and whose whole philosophy was based upon reason and a passionate concern for the individual.

    How could anyone not like someone who was one of the most passionate champions of the individual in history? What would you prefer? Someone who wrote passionately in favor of groups?

    Does that make any sense to anyone? What is a group but a colletion of individuals? Why would anyone argue that when a person joins a group (which I advise against strongly and always have for all the obvious reasons) that person should have less rights than before he joined? Would it be rational to join any group if you had to give up some of your rights as the price of entry?

    But on the bright side, I repeat: this is the best blog on the Internet and I think Glenn deserves an enormous amount of credit for creating something truly unique.

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  170. Anonymous2:38 AM

    Total air dominance means no one occupies the air space with you or contests your control over it with their air forces. Your ground forces can never operate with impunity on the ground until all the "comabtants" on the ground have been neutralized. Air forces do not occupy ground, a lesson we learn over and over again. Our troops in Iraq are hardly operating with impunity, even with our total air dominance of Iraqi air space. It is true that they are not subject to strafing or bombing runs by ground attack aircraft.

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  171. Anonymous2:43 AM

    William,,

    Air supremacy

    Air superiority

    Dominance has connotations the eggheads would prefer to avoid but that's what it is.

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  172. Anonymous2:54 AM

    William,

    These are much cheaper to procure, operate and maintain than an air force. This is what is causing most of the trouble because they are so cheap and plentiful. They are remarkably effective and accurate compared to their predecessors, although they are still considered "dumb munitions".

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  173. Anonymous3:13 AM

    Anonymous:

    Not to belabor the point, but what I meant by "with impunity," was without significant threat from enemy air forces, or if you prefer, without any threat. I don't think we really disagree here, if we stick strictly to theater of operations in the sense of a battlefield with sea, land and air forces engaged on both sides.

    This is quite a different thing from the situation you have in the Middle East. I'm sure the Israelis know who's got what and where it is most of the time, but they're not omniscient, and timing is everything, as is the resourcefulness of the enemy. You don't have to contend for control of the airspace with Israeli F-15s, you just have to get one guy close enough.

    As alert as the Israelis are, it's not as though they haven't made some scary mistakes in the past -- as have we. I'm sure not a gnat got through our air defenses over Iraq, not counting a Silkworm or two, but then there was that nasty business on 9/11. (My point being that since they weren't Backfires, and didn't have red stars painted on them, we literally couldn't see them coming. Of course the Israelis are never going to be that sloppy; they can't afford to be.)

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  174. Anonymous3:26 AM

    The Summer of 1914

    With Hezbollah’s entry into the war between Israel and Hamas, Fourth Generation war has taken another developmental step forward. For the first time, a non-state entity has gone to war with a state not by waging an insurgency against a state invader, but across an international boundary. Again we see how those who define 4GW simply as insurgency are looking at only a small part of the picture.

    I think the stakes in the Israel-Hezbollah-Hamas war are significantly higher than most observers understand. If Hezbollah and Hamas win—and winning just means surviving, given that Israel’s objective is to destroy both entities—a powerful state will have suffered a new kind of defeat, again, a defeat across at least one international boundary and maybe two, depending on how one defines Gaza’s border. The balance between states and 4GW forces will be altered world-wide, and not to a trivial degree.

    So far, Hezbollah is winning. As Arab states stood silent and helpless before Israel’s assault on Hamas, another non-state entity, Hezbollah, intervened to relieve the siege of Gaza by opening a second front. Its initial move, a brilliantly conducted raid that killed eight Israeli soldiers and captured two for the loss of one Hezbollah fighter, showed once again that Hezbollah can take on state armed forces on even terms (the Chechens are the only other 4GW force to demonstrate that capability). In both respects, the contrast with Arab states will be clear on the street, pushing the Arab and larger Islamic worlds further away from the state.

    Hezbollah then pulled off two more firsts. It responded effectively to terror bombing from the air, which state think is their monopoly, with rocket barrages that reached deep into Israel. Once can only imagine how this resonated world-wide with people who are often bombed but can never bomb back. And, it attacked another state monopoly, navies, by hitting and disabling a blockading Israeli warship with something (I question Israel’s claim that the weapon was a C-801 anti-ship missile, which should have sunk a small missile corvette). Hezbollah’s leadership has promised more such surprises.

    In response, Israel has had to hit not Hezbollah but the state of Lebanon...

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  175. Anonymous3:30 AM

    Anonymous:

    The Iranians don't need to worry about cheap, nor will have have to restrict themselves to a single type of weaponry. Of course, they're a long way away, relatively speaking, and vulnerable themselves.

    Nevertheless, if this war escalates into a regional conflict, Israel and the U.S., for that matter, are really going to have their hands full, regardless of their current technological superiority. What's more, that superiority won't be so effortlessly maintained in the future as it has been in the past.

    Ugh...I don't want to even think about this anymore -- it scares me.

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  176. Anonymous3:38 AM

    I wish it were that simple, William. As a culture who has always relied on "peace through superior firepower" it's difficult for us to imagine what the real WWIII or IV will look like, but Einstein may have been half right, about the sticks and stones part, as Creveld suggests. We still see warfare as something it once was. It evolves over time like every other human endeavor, good or bad.

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  177. Anonymous3:42 AM

    William... Ugh...I don't want to even think about this anymore -- it scares me.

    Eat, drink and be merry, but vigilant and thoughtful, as you obviously are. We are still so lucky here. That's why the fear-mongers grow increasingly irrelevevant. And get some sleep.

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  178. You know, Mr. "eyes wide open," I never thought of it that way before. The thousands of children slaughtered in their day care centers, weddings, and Bat Mitzvahs "provoked" the results they got. Godamm! And I just thought these killers would go back to being useless, unemployed dreck if there was no provoking to avenge. Thanks for opening my eyes.

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  179. Anonymous3:58 AM

    Anonymous:

    And I hope you, too, will take your own good advice. Just as an aside, before lights out, I don't know what time zone the stamps at the end of these posts are taken from, but it sure as hell isn't almost 4:00 a.m. where I am.

    Ah well, it's late enough....

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  180. Anonymous4:28 AM

    Anonymous:

    Just in case you should happen to check the end of this thread tomorrow.

    Gakh, I suppose I should have tumbled to what was up when you put up the Lind quote; well, I told you I was slow tonight. (It's not as if you didn't know that, right?)

    Yeah, it ain't about tech per se -- as always it's about strategy first, then tactics, then whatever nasty stuff you can get your hands on to inconvenience your enemy in the arena you've maneuvered him into.

    And we may very well be seeing this now, just as we did in Vietnam, the proverbial paradigm shift. And of course I've been saying exactly this here myself most of the day.

    (Expletive deleted) and then I went and suckered myself into some silly digression about weaponry without paying attention to the context. Well done, anon, well done. Can you see me blushing?

    Ci vediamo, caro (or cara, as the case may be.) It was a good lesson.

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  181. shooter242 sez:

    One might consider that rather than moving forward in some regard this is going to fuel a move backward to the time when wars redrew borders.

    Taking over Lebanon would change border protected terrorists to insurgents which are easier to deal with. When the terrorists retreat to countries like Syria then there will be an established regime to combat.


    Yeah, there's a word for this (and it's an old one too): "Lebensraum".

    Cheers,

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  182. Anonymous12:08 PM

    What I noticed coming out of the discussion in this thread about Israel (the condemnation of the extremes of right and left who would put Israel up on a pedestal or demonize it) is basically this.

    The people you're fighting with (the "Israel can do no wrong" crowd) are basically fascists posing as Wilsonian Democrats. They never had any intention of bringing the Arabs "democracy" simply because Arab racial/cultural inferiority is central to their ideology. Until people understand that, there's no way to understand LGF or Atlas Shrugs or John Bolton. How the neocons fooled the press into thinking they actually did believe in "freedom" is one for the history books.

    The "Israel can do no right" crowd is irrelevant in the United States. Whether it's made up of Marxist Leninists (who aren't anti-Semites but who are opposed to nationalism of any sort) or anti-Semites, they have little power or influence. This could change. In the Middle East, on the other hand, they're extremely important. If the "left" wants to have influence here, it has to resist anti-Semitic conspiracy theories and demonization that's coming out of the Arab world.

    On the other hand you and your allies (the so called "left" of the Atrios/Kos school) are really old fashioned East Coast centrist Republicans posing as Kissingerite realists and engaging in a running battle with the above mentioned fascists to secure cred on the “left” (bring those anti-war protesters into the Democratic Party and Al Franken is the classic example of a centrist who plays to the left). In the late 70s, you probably would have been on board with Jimmy Carter (another classic centrist) and his human rights campaign (which was, of course, designed to weaken the Soviet Union but which also had some genuine progressive impulses). But because the neocons have hijacked your real political ideology you pose as Kissingerites to seem tough and to have a club to beat the above mentioned fascists with.

    The current takeover of the Democratic Party by old line Republican centrists (Wesley Clark, Lamont, Mark Warner) is no big deal. Old line FDR liberalism really isn't possible anymore but I wonder if most of you will baulk at the cold, calculating realpolitik necessary to impose a Pinochet in Chile or to cut Israel loose when it becomes too much of a hassle to support.

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  183. Anonymous1:23 PM

    Stanley W. Rogouski:

    Mmm...interesting analysis. A bit dismissive, but not inaccurate as far as it goes.

    Errare humanum est, would be my instinctive reply. The situation that the world has gotten itself into these days is complex, and to some extent, yes, we're trying to interpret it with concepts -- frames, memes, whatever you like -- that are really more relevant to things that have already disappeared.

    That's more or less what people do. The battleship admirals make look pitiable in retrospect, but only because they had to be dislodged before more relevant thinking could find real expression in the shipyards. It wasn't as though there was no one in the world's navies who understood what aircraft carriers portended. Certainly the Japanese understood it well enough to come up with Pearl Harbor.

    Still, there's plenty about our current Zeitgeist that can be adequately explained by analogies from the past -- the old, outmoded paradigms as another commenter called them here -- and as for what can't be, there'll always be enough bright people around who, after a relatively brief exposure to disparate facts, can spot the pattern in them, even when its unprecedented.

    The difficulty -- as with displacing the battleship admirals -- comes in communicating what you've discovered to others, particularly to others with enough power to act. Since that's necessarily a political process, it may take more time than we have, if a cataclysm overtakes us in the meantime. Global warming, sudden escalation in the Middle East, take your pick. We used to worry about thermonuclear weapons coming over the poles. Didn't happen. Could have, but didn't. At least it wasn't nonsense, like the GWOT.

    Of course, we don't exactly have the best and brightest working for us today, do we? That's certainly more cause for worry than whether or not Kos is actually a Republican.

    On the other hand, when we did have the best and brightest at the helm we occasionally got our tit in the wringer anyway. Vietnam, you know, McNamara, etc.

    So you tell me, given the general lack of wisdom, and the odd perversity of human language, and the looming threat of really, really bad stuff over the horizon, what would you recommend?

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  184. Anonymous4:33 PM

    Ten days ago, I participated in a frenzied motorcade celebration around Glen Cove, Long Island, with many of us waving Italian flags. Nobody seemed offended.

    On April 10, I participated in a demonstration outside Sen. Kyl's office in central Phoenix, with many of us waving Mexican flags.
    A lot of people got offended.

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  185. Anonymous5:49 PM

    Why do I feel especially angry at the violence perpetrated by Israel versus other state and non-state actors? I think a part of it comes from the sadness of being faced with the fact that suffering doesn't teach anyone anything. Some say that Israel is being held to a higher standard than other regimes and I wonder if perhaps that is true in the sense that one might have hoped that being on the receiving end of brutality and oppression for 2000 years might have taught Jews compassion. To see the victims of brutality become perpetrators -- I should know that that's human nature, but it's painful. As Glenn writes, it's a matter of who seems to dominant in the region, who seems to be the bully, who seems the stronger. Arab violence I see as the violence of the weak. No doubt it's racist of me not to be more appalled by it (in some way having lower ethical standards for Arabs than for Jews), but that's my visceral response. And because I'm Jewish, I feel implicated in what Israel does. Again, foolish, but true.

    It's painful to read of Jews doing the following, today, in Gaza (this is a report of a friend working as a psychologist there):

    Went back out working today...visited a community that had been 'occupied' for 4 days...When the IDF occupy a town, for whatever strategic or psychological reasons they feel t is important, they first cut the power and then come in with tanks...smashe down the walls of the most strategically located house(s) and send dogs in through the hole. The dogs are wearing camera head sets and are remotely commanded (through earbuds) to go into one room or another, to attack, or hold and drag people out of the house. They then toss in a few stun grenades, put all of the people in one room and take over the rest of the house (cutting holes in the walls for snipers etc)...then, they bulldoze anything that prevents them from seeing clearly, trees houses, cars, and anything that moves on the streets or in windows that's not IDF gets shot...either by the snipers or tanks. It's very efficient and very safe for the soldiers (less so for the civilians)...while they are in the houses, they often ruin...well...everything...destroy furniture, books etc. There are often other forms of humiliation that are used.

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  186. Anonymous6:12 PM

    My critique of the conflict centers on US military aid to Israel, which enables Israel to wage war with state of the art weapons and prevents Israel from seeking a lasting peace through compromise. I cannot presume to know what to tell either Israel, Palestinians or others in the area. I only know my country is a very large contributor to the conflict and I want that contribution stopped.

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  187. Anonymous9:27 PM

    I went to the demonstration yesterday at the Israeli Consulate in San Francisco, and wrote the following summary email for friends. Hope people find it interesting. JVP = A Jewish Voice for Peace, who sponsored the demo.

    Since I'm working just a few blocks away, I stopped by the demo from about 12:30 - 1:15. The block of Montgomery between California and Sacramento (or Sacramento and Clay?) was blocked off to traffic. Most of the demonstrators were on the sidewalk on the other side of the building in which the consulate is located. There was a scattering of counter-demonstrators on the sidewalk on the consulate side waving Israeli and US flags and carrying signs like "Arise, O Israel, and scatter your enemies", "stop bombing Haifa", and "If you stand for peace, stand with Israel". About half (?) of the demonstrators looked like likely JVP supporters, with signs like "CEASE FIRE", "Negotiate", and "stop all bombings". There was also a smaller but much louder contingent with Palestinian flags, whose affiliation I didn't get. There was a sizeable squad of police keeping the blocked-off street clear. A couple middle-aged (I think JVP) men walked out to the middle of the street and sat down and were immediately arrested. There was another CD group of folks linking arms across Montgomery, and I think most of them were arrested and taken away. I found it a sort of frustrating situation. People on each "side" of the issue were on their barricaded-sidewalk side of the street, yelling at each other or bullhorning each other, neither getting (IMO) the JVP message. While I picked up a sign (couldn't tell from which group) for a while that said "there is only one side... justice", I didn't feel it was all that productive. I left deciding that the statement I'd like to make is to sit and meditate in the middle of the street, but I'm sure I would have been arrested immediately, too.

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  188. Anonymous: I went to the demonstration yesterday at the Israeli Consulate in San Francisco

    I lived in Berkeley years ago, before anyone ever thought to call it the People's Republic of Berkeley, and have fond memories of demonstrations all over the Bay Area.

    Your eyewitness account brought back a lot of memories. Thank you.

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  189. Anonymous11:56 AM

    For the record, the Washington, D.C. pro-Israel rally featured many American flags among the crowd. And organizers gave out pins with the American and Israeli flags together.

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  190. Anonymous4:59 AM

    ISRAEL USING 'BLITZKRIEG' TACTICS

    Israel's use of "BLITZKRIEG" war tactics--first, heavy aerial bombardment, then massive shelling using artillery pieces and tanks, and finally, a major push using overwhelming infantry forces--against the hapless civilans in both Gaza and Lebanon, was first used and refined by the Nazis in WW II.

    It's a bit ironic that Israel, who never misses a chance to blame the world and sow guilt for what happened during WW II, uses the same military tactics that the Nazi controlled Wehrmacht employed to success 65 years ago.

    Way to go Israel! You've already turned the West Bank and Gaza into concentration camps with your so-called "security fence."
    Now, instead of using gas chambers for your "FINAL SOLUTION" of dealing with the Palestinians, and now, the Lebanese people, Israel uses F-16's and 155 mm artillery shells, white phosphorous and cluster bombs.
    Israel must have forgot the old saying, "Choose your enemies well."

    Greg Bacon
    Ava, MO

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