Many have already noted the rather fundamental and painfully obvious flaw in the poll: it doesn’t ask whether people support eavesdropping in violation of the law and/or without obtaining search warrants from a court, which happens to be what the scandal is about. As everyone knows by now (except for the Rasmussen pollsters), the scandal is not about whether the Administration should be eavesdropping in order to fight terrorism but about whether the Administration has the right to violate criminal laws by eavesdropping on American citizens without the warrants required by law. Aren’t we well passed the point where it is necessary to point out that distinction?
But beyond this specific, truly useless poll, there are several things worth noting about public opinion polls generally as they concern this scandal:
(1) It is quite amazing to watch these Bush defenders -- who relentlessly slogged on with Bill Clinton’s sex scandal impeachment in the face of immovable public opinion polls consistently showing strong pro-Clinton and anti-impeachment sentiments, but who piously told us again and again how polling doesn’t matter when it comes to the solemn duty to uphold the rule of law – now seize the very first public opinion poll they can get their hands on and parade around with it like celebrating munchkins declaring that the wicked scandal is dead. One Bush-defending celebrant even told us, with no apparent irony at all, that “a scandal without a scandalized public is pretty hard to pursue to impeachment.”
Is there some sort of new medication or surgical procedure which enables Bush defenders to simply forget everything they said, every "principle" they touted, during the eight years of the Clinton Presidency?
(2) There is a lot of talk about the proper oppositional role which a minority party ought to play, and there has been much debate within the Democratic Party specifically about whether a more aggressive posture is appropriate in opposing the Administration's actions.
Regardless of one's stance on those issues generally, surely everyone can agree that the Democratic Party must aggressively -- very aggressively -- pursue this Presidential law-breaking no matter what public opinion surveys show in the first instance, and even what they show thereafter. If the Democratic Party is going to meekly crawl away with a few peeps of impotent protest now that it has been revealed that George Bush has been deliberately and breezily violating laws enacted by Congress – and now that Bush himself has defiantly proclaimed his intent to continue to violate the law – what really would be the point of having an opposition party?
It cannot matter what public opinion polls show, particularly in these initial stages. The President violated the law. Repeatedly and deliberately. And he has vowed to continue to do so. The harm from allowing him to do so with impunity would be incalculable on almost every level. And if Democrats crawl away from this fight because of fear of polling data or a desire to appear “serious” as the Bill Kristol’s of the world manipulatively define that term, such a dereliction of duty will only bolster – and quite justifiably so – the devastatingly harmful image of Democrats as a weak-willed and spineless party with no courage and no soul.
(3) Scandals do not instantaneously change public opinion – almost ever. Perceptions of George Bush have been solidified after 5 years in office and two national elections, and they don’t just magically transform overnight because of a single New York Times article, the ramifications of which have yet to be fully explained to the public.
This scandal is a full two weeks old. Most of the relevant facts are still to be revealed. We know only bits and pieces – we only know those very limited facts which the Times scraped up enough courage to print, along with "facts" which have been leaked by the Administration. We are at the very beginning of this scandal, not in the middle or at the end. Any talk of “public opinion” regarding the illegal eavesdropping -- as though such opinion is dispositive or unmoveable – is absurd.
Watergate unfolded over the course of three years. Richard Nixon was re-elected with an overwhelming landslide in the middle of the scandal. It is highly instructive to recall the evolution of public opinion with regard to this Mother of all Presidential Law-breaking Scandals:
[I]t is worth remembering that Watergate, as a case against a presidency, was not built in a day, and the decision of most Americans to abandon their support of Nixon was not made overnight.
Shafts of light fell on Nixon's dark side in June 1972, when burglars were caught bugging the Democratic National Committee headquarters in the Watergate hotel-office complex. The few newspeople who went after the story began piecing it together that summer and fall: the program of dirty tricks and the illegal cash financing, the efforts to silence potential witnesses and shield the president.
While the revelations accumulated, the rest of the country tuned out. That November, Nixon carried 49 states in winning re-election. More than two months later, as the first Watergate defendants were going to court in January 1973, Nixon's numbers in the Gallup Poll were among the most robust of his presidency: 68 percent approval to 25 percent disapproval (a near match with Clinton's figures for late January 1998).
Of course, that was before Nixon began talking about invoking executive privilege to prevent White House aides from testifying about an alleged cover-up. When that key phrase, "executive privilege," became part of the discussion, Nixon's numbers started their descent.
In February, the Senate voted 70-0 to empanel an investigating committee of its own. Nixon's approval rating in the first week of April stood at 54 percent in the Gallup Poll. Most Americans were still withholding judgment.
Even after the April 30 speech in which Nixon announced the resignation of his closest aides, many Republicans continued to rally around the president. The Senate Republican leader, Hugh C. Scott of Pennsylvania, said the speech had proved that the president was "determined to see this affair thoroughly cleaned up." The governor of California, Ronald Reagan, said the Watergate bugging had been illegal but that "criminal" was too harsh a term because the convicted burglars were "not criminals at heart."
That same month, Republican state party chairmen meeting in Chicago adopted a resolution blaming "a few overzealous individuals" for Watergate and lending unequivocal support to the president.
Vice President Spiro T. Agnew accused the press of using "hearsay" and other tactics that were "a very short jump from McCarthyism." The same comparison was picked up by the man who had succeeded McCarthy in the Senate, Democrat William Proxmire of Wisconsin, who said the media had been "grossly unfair" to Nixon.
By then, however, the bleeding in the Gallup Poll had dropped Nixon to just 48 percent approval in the first week of May -- a drop of 20 percentage points since January. And that rating would keep on falling through the 25 percent level before Nixon's resignation in August 1974.
In the short two weeks since this scandal was disclosed, there have been all sorts of obfuscatory smoke screens thrown up by blindly loyal Bush defenders, who have paraded before the cameras and spewed forth all sorts of esoteric legalisms about “inherent authority” and the AUMF in order to cloud what is, in reality, an exceptionally clear issue.
But that smoke will clear as more facts are revealed. Americans will realize that Congress – with the agreement of the Executive Branch and the intelligence community – all agreed that eavesdropping on American citizens without a warrant should be and is a crime. And knowing that, Bush ordered his Government to do it anyway. He therefore broke the law, and is unrepentant about it. Once the smoke clears, those are not difficult concepts to grasp, and Americans -- thanks to Watergate -- have a visceral aversion to illegal White House eavesdropping and Presidents who claim the right to break the law. These are not difficult issues to explain.
Ultimately, the focus must remain on the fact that the President acted in violation of the law and brazenly claims the right to do so. Democrats and everyone else who care about the rule of law should be guided by their passion and anger over that fact. Everything else will follow from it.
UPDATE: This CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll (h/t Mike G.) from December 20 -- reporting that "[n]early two-thirds said they are not willing to sacrifice civil liberties to prevent terrorism, as compared to 49 percent saying so in 2002" -- is of much greater relevance to the NSA scandal than a poll regarding the general desirability of (legal) surveillance. But public opinion on the NSA scandal won't be known until a credible poll asks whether the public approves of the Bush Administration's eavesdropping on American citizens with no oversight and without obtaining judicial authorization as required by FISA.
Excellent points. The reality is that, over the last 10 years, the Republicans have been more more politically successful than Democrats. The reason is because Republicans have been willing to pursue THEIR BELIEFS even when polls show that people don't start off agreeing with them. Democrats are only willing to express an opinion if polls show in advance that people already agree with those opinions. It's like they are afraid to try to convince anyone of anything. That is the action of a coward and people know that.
ReplyDeleteIt is time for that to change. And, for the reasons you point out, this issue is the perfect place to start.
Sadly, i don't have any hope for the Democrats here. How many times do they have to show they are afraid to really stand up to Bush before we get the picture?
ReplyDeleteI think opposition is going to come from Independents and even principled Republicans, and once that happens, Democrats will jump on board. If that doesn't happen, this scandal will just fade away.
I wish it weren't so, but it just is.
I don't see this scandal fading, for the simple reason that the courts will be involved early.
ReplyDeleteThat is, political cover isn't sufficient, there will have to be legal cover.
Glenn has done a great job of showing that there really isn't any legal cover. All issues are debatable, so I see a lengthy public debate in the courts, regardless of what Congress does.
And, as the excerpt in your post suggests, there were lots of pussified Biden-like Democrats who continued to defend Nixon almost up until the end. They were the ones who wanted to show what responsible, restrained statemsen they were by dumping on the people fighting against Nixon's illegal crap.
ReplyDeleteWe're going to have those now, we need to be sure to puke them out.
***Is there some sort of new medication or surgical procedure which enables Bush defenders to simply forget everything they said, every "principle" they touted, during the eight years of the Clinton Presidency?***
ReplyDeleteYes, it's called "being elected"
BTW, was it only a coincidence that Malkin was the "dogs in heat" link?
Glenn, thanks for the thoghtful posts, great to find your site. I would say that if the Democrats do not respond to this in at least the manner you suggest, they are betraying the American people, and the Republic. They would be standing for the evisceration of democratic life and would be complicit in letting it happen at the expense of the people. I think they've already started down that path and figure it will be hard for them to develop a spine. I'm not sure how anybody, much less the Democratic Party can believe that last elections were conducted fairly, nor how the next ones will, nor why we should believe anything the administration says, Dems should be out every day challenging the administration and bringing this to the public.
ReplyDeleteIt has been clear to me for a long time now that the Dem Party is not standing anymore for those things I value. Of course, the Republicans have never done so, but the time/attitude of giving Dems a break is gone or fading rapidly. They play the same game Republicans do, albeit in a different configuration: they play fear over the present admin, and its excesses, as their principal campaign strategy. Fear there is and should be, but I also expect promise, a plan, a standing for something. Don't see it. I suspect it is John McCain whom will be elected next go round - Republicans have been successful in making people think there is one set of values and pool of applicants for the job.
Thanks again for your incisive and insightful posts on this issue.
Yes, it's called "being elected"
ReplyDeleteYes - it's imperative for the sake of liberty that the Federal Government be limited in its power - until we get our hands on it, in which case its power should be limitless.
BTW, was it only a coincidence that Malkin was the "dogs in heat" link?
I had the Bush-defender links lined up and ready to be deployed, and when I got to "dogs in heat," her number came up. Funny that you asked - I actually thought about the possibility that someone would think it was deliberate and decided not to accommodate baseless offense.
Bush will get away with this, unless principled Republicans give the Democrats the political cover they would need to pursue the matter. Bush is climbing back up in popularity, and it is worth remembering what the popular Reagan survived.
ReplyDeleteGee you guys are more reality based than I thought. You've accurately pegged that the democratic party is a bunch of spineless arses without any core of beliefs whatsoever except to be against everything anybody else says.
ReplyDeleteBush has done NOTHING wrong. There is no legal problem. The Supreme Court reads polls too. Hypatia, Reagan did NOTHING wrong, btw. Thank god for partiots like Ollie North, Admiral Poindexter, and William Casey. We need more like them. We needed them especially during the Reagan administration at a time when the leader of the democratic party was reporting constantly to his commie buddy Ortega on just how he and his party were working hard to assist Ortega with his death squads and oppression of the poor and middle class people of his party. His thugs stole the national treasury for their own personal fortune on the way out. If not for these Reagan Admin patriots the people of El Salvador might never have been able to express their universal desire for freedom and in support of the contras via their votes at the ballot box.
Gary
Gary, your post is evidence of why Bush will get away with this, if Republicans do not step forward in sufficient numbers. Ronald Reagan is remembered today as a Lincoln-esque figure, and Ollie North has a lucrative career on Fox News. But both broke the law; they violated the express will of Congress as captured in the Boland Amendment.
ReplyDeleteI opposed that legislation, quite ardently. But it passed; it was the law; and the Reagan Administration broke that law. But to you, and people like you, none of that matters.
So, politically, there may be no way to hold Bush accountable, not unless members of his own party take the lead.
Um, Gary, even Reagan admitted," Mistakes were made," during Iran Contra. Granted the passive voice is the most pathetic way to admit a mistake. And for all the Republican talk of respect for law, all those chumps like North and Weinberger and Eliot Abrams were in fact convicted for a variety of crimes, not the least of which was "privatizing" war and foreign policy. Those convicted were pardoned by Bush Senior, or had their convictions overturned not because they did nothing wrong,but because their testimony to Congress was ruled inadmissable in court. Oy
ReplyDeletePlease see my post at http://americanfuture.net/?p=1124
ReplyDeleteMarc - In response to your post, I've repeatedly acknowledged - and refuted - the arguments advanced in order to justify Bush's eavesdropping on American citizens in violation of FISA. See, for instance, here.
Just because there are people who try to justify certain behavior doesn't mean there is a justification for that behavior. George Bush is the President of the United States - if he were to go on a murderous throat-slitting spree tomorrow on video, he'd have lots of his own lawyers (along with Mark Levin, Hugh Hewitt and Sean Hannity) saying he did nothing wrong. That wouldn't mean that the legal issues were unclear.
The FISA statute could not be clearer - anyone who eavesdrops without a judicial warrant (except in circumstances even the Administration does not claim exist here) is guilty of a criminal offense. Thus, the only way the legal issue can be "unclear" is if there is some theory that allows the President to eavesdrop in violation of this statute. For the reasons I've addressed at length, the theories being offered to justify this law-breaking are frivolous, after-the-fact excuses designed to save George Bush.
Why do you think that I or anyone else has an obligation to pretend that the legal issues are unclear?
if polls have such an impact in public opinion, and the polls questions are framed in ways that are not helping understand what the american public thinks,but used as a political tool, don't you think a powerful tool is being neglected?
ReplyDeleteGlenn,
ReplyDeleteFirst let me say that I agree with your assessment: The law has been broken, neither the presidents motivation nor the result excuse this, and something should be done about it.
***Yes, it's called "being elected"
Yes - it's imperative for the sake of liberty that the Federal Government be limited in its power - until we get our hands on it, in which case its power should be limitless. ***
My point was that there is no shortage of weasels on either side of the aisle that say one thing when it's one of their own cockroaches scurrying from the light, and something completely different when it's a cockroach from the other tribe.
About the Malkin thing- I suppose I owe you an apology. It's obvious that you're not some unhinged DU'er or Kossack, and I should have recognized that. I am sorry for bringing it up.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteIf not for these Reagan Admin patriots the people of El Salvador might never have been able to express their universal desire for freedom and in support of the contras via their votes at the ballot box.
ReplyDeleteI won't touch this comment, it is obviously a parody. I will point out that the Contras were in Nicaragua
(Sorry for the two deletions, one was borne of curiousity to see if I could delete my own comment. The other was because I forgot to italicize the quoted comment from Gary. Won't happen again.)
Mr. Greenwald, your continued analysis of the FISA statute is just plain wrong. You rely on cases that are inapplicable to foreign intelligence surveillance, usually by their own terms. You rely on dicta in a concurring opinion in Youngstown. Your analysis on FISA is just as wrong as your pre Hamdi analysis of what the law was on the President's authority to detain enemy combatants. The Supreme court will never say the President doesn't have the authority to protect the country from the enemy (as opposed to a labor union) at a time of war. All appellate cases are in the President's favor on this, and since there is no Supreme Court case on point, it is unreasonable to allege that the law is absolutely clear one way or the other.
ReplyDeleteHeretik, There were no final convictions of any wrongdoing in Iran Contra. In this country liberals believe you are innocent until found guilty at a fair trial meeting the standards of due process of law. As a result there were no final convictions and no wrongdoers.
History has born out the correctness of Reagan's people in their support of freedom in this hemisphere, and has shown once again how the totalitarian commie loving democrats like Jim Wright, et al were opposed to freedom for people because freedom isn't what they are really all about. Their rhetoric notwithstanding.
Mr. Greenwald, given your cite of the gallop poll, the next poll question should be has Bush's NSA surveillance of people calling terrorists overseas invaded your civil liberties. About 70% will say no it hasn't. So the gallop poll is meaningless for the purposes in which you are trying to use it.
Hypatia, since Bush has done nothing wrong and is doing exactly what he should be doing, there is no basis for Republicans to join the 49% of hysterical democrats who think if Bush awakens alive in the morning that's a crime.
Gary
Well, Glenn, I do think a scandal without a scandalized public is hard to pursue to impeachment - or do you not find the notion of married Presidents in their 50s diddling the 20-year-old help scandalizing?
ReplyDeleteMy tongue is somewhat in cheek; I realize that the issues involved here are more weighty than those in the Clinton sex scandal. Say what you will about the flaws in this poll, though; I see no signs that Joe Q. Public is very alarmed by this story, and that makes an impeachment case based upon it a political dog that won't hunt...
My point was that there is no shortage of weasels on either side of the aisle that say one thing when it's one of their own cockroaches scurrying from the light, and something completely different when it's a cockroach from the other tribe.
ReplyDeleteNo argument here on that. It's just that one of those two sides happens to control all 3 branches of the Federal Government and is using that control to consolidate its power, with the intent of increasing it even more and keeping it for a long, long time.
For that reason, that particular side's perfidy, corruption and excesses are a lot more significant, alarming and dangerous, in my view.
And for another good analysis that explains yet again why Mr. Greenwald's analysis is just whistling in the wind:
ReplyDeletehttp://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007734
Mr. Turner, the author of the following is, co-founder of the Center for National Security Law at the University of Virginia School of Law, served as counsel to the President's Intelligence Oversight Board, 1982-84.
1. It IS A DECLARED WAR:
For constitutional purposes, the joint resolution passed with but a single dissenting vote by Congress on Sept. 14, 2001, was the equivalent of a formal declaration of war. The Supreme Court held in 1800 (Bas v. Tingy), and again in 1801 (Talbot v. Seamen), that Congress could formally authorize war by joint resolution without passing a formal declaration of war; and in the post-U.N. Charter era no state has issued a formal declaration of war. Such declarations, in fact, have become as much an anachronism as the power of Congress to issue letters of marque and reprisal (outlawed by treaty in 1856). Formal declarations were historically only required when a state was initiating an aggressive war, which today is unlawful.
1A. An interesting new Angle on these issues.
Section 1811 of the FISA statute recognizes that during a period of authorized war the president must have some authority to engage in electronic surveillance "without a court order." The question is whether Congress had the power to limit such authorizations to a 15-day period, which I think highly doubtful. It would be akin to Congress telling the president during wartime that he could attack a particular enemy stronghold for a maximum of 15 days.
2. Some Final Thoughts From Mr. Turner:
Ultimately, as the courts have noted, the test is whether the legitimate government interest involved--in this instance, discovering and preventing new terrorist attacks that may endanger tens of thousands of American lives--outweighs the privacy interests of individuals who are communicating with al Qaeda terrorists. And just as those of us who fly on airplanes have accepted intrusive government searches of our luggage and person without the slightest showing of probable cause, those of us who communicate (knowingly or otherwise) with foreign terrorists will have to accept the fact that Uncle Sam may be listening.
Our Constitution is the supreme law, and it cannot be amended by a simple statute like the FISA law. Every modern president and every court of appeals that has considered this issue has upheld the independent power of the president to collect foreign intelligence without a warrant.
The Supreme Court may ultimately clarify the competing claims; but until then, the president is right to continue monitoring the communications of our nation's declared enemies, even when they elect to communicate with people within our country.
It's apparently very easy to find a prof of law who will say almost anything. Glenn, you have fallen into a den of thieves. Maybe you and hypatia should take up a different line of work.
ReplyDeleteThe AUMF is written kind of funny. It seems carefully worded, to me, to NOT extend some uncheckable authorization to do whatever by the pres. But that's just my opinion.
This is not opinion - it is the heart of the AUMF:
The link - http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/bills/blsjres23.htm
______________________________
SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.
--------------------------------
The resolution says 9/11 and the perpetrators thereof. I always wondered why it was so important for the pres that Al Qaeda have a presence in Iraq. Now I know. Also, why it was so important that Iraq be tied to 9/11. Again, now I know. Without a 9/11 connection, Iraq can't fall under the AUMF.
I think the last sentence is interesting. It says future acts of terrorism, but then it says "by such nations, organizations or persons." I don't think that is an open ended invitation to a nation at war. Ya know, if I were a more suspicious man, I'd think that capturing Bin Laden is the worst thing that could happen to the pres. The argument could be made much more readily that the 9/11 perpetrators are no longer a threat, and the AUMF no longer in force.
It's make a guy wonder, doesn't it?
Jake