Sunday, January 01, 2006

Breaking the Daou Cycle: Conservative opposition to Bush's law-breaking

Peter Daou’s recent description of the 10 steps which lead to the inconsequential fading away of every Bush scandal has received substantial attention, and deservedly so. When reading it, one can instinctively recognize that it accurately outlines how George Bush has survived scandal after scandal – including ones which, by themselves, would have sunk a President who was not protected by such an efficient scandal-repelling machine.

While Daou predicts that this cycle will similarly consign the NSA scandal to irrelevance, it is becoming clear that this scandal is actually deviating from Daou's cycle and, I believe, will continue to deviate even more as more facts are revealed. The cycle is primarily breaking down – not yet entirely, but already quite noticeably, and certainly much more so than ever before – at Daou's Steps 4 and 5 (where virtually all Republicans fall in line behind Bush and read from the Bush-defending script). The controversy arising from Bush's claimed power of law-breaking is plainly not ideologically-based, and as a result, there is nothing even close to unanimity of Republican opinion in defense of George Bush.

Quite the contrary. There are now aggressive criticisms of Bush’s conduct coming from his own party, and the criticisms are not confined to the standard, isolated, pseudo-maverick McCain/Hagel precincts. We are seeing not just widespread Republican discomfort in defending the President here, but affirmative criticisms of the President even from many of his most steadfast supporters, who are making clear that George Bush broke the law and has no right to do so.

What matters more than anything else is keeping the focus exclusively on what this scandal is about. This is not about eavesdropping, or warrants, or the Fourth Amendment, or privacy. This scandal raises all of those issues secondarily, but that is not what this scandal is about. This scandal matters so much because George Bush broke the law and is vowing to continue to break the law because his lawyers have created legal theories which contend that the President during "wartime" has the right to break the law. As both Digby and Mark Kleiman have noted, this scandal is -- from beginning to end -- about law-breaking and, more specifically, the fact that the President of the United States really is claiming the power to break the law, not just in this instance, but generally.

As a result, the only way to defend George Bush is by arguing that he has the right to disregard the law – a premise so intrinsically alien to the most ingrained American principles, regardless of political ideology, that all but his most slavish supporters will be highy reluctant, if not outright unwilling, to defend him here.

Every discussion of this scandal should begin by emphasizing that: (a) FISA expressly makes it a criminal offense to eavesdrop without complying with its mandates and (b) even the President and his lawyers acknowledge that the eavesdropping Bush ordered does not comply with the mandates of FISA. Bush ordered his Administration to act contrary to the requirements of this law, and nobody, including Bush, claims otherwise.

What Bush supporters are arguing is not that the eavesdropping complied with FISA. Given the crystal clear language of FISA, not even they are brazen enough to try that. Instead, what they are arguing (.pdf) is that they were allowed to eavesdrop in violation of the law -- either because (a) other laws (AUMF) which don't mention FISA or eavesdropping should nonetheless be "interpreted" to allow him to violate FISA, or (b) as a wartime President he has the right to violate laws like this. Whatever else one wants to say about those theories, they are theories which argue that Bush has the right to act outside of the eavesdropping law. Thus, the only question that this debate really entails is whether George Bush has the right to violate laws like FISA, because even he admits that he ordered eavesdropping "outside of" the law.

It is becoming increasingly difficult to depict this scandal as some sort of partisan bickering or as a by-product of anti-Bush liberalism because more and more conservatives and even steadfast pro-Bush supporters are acknowledging that, at the very least, there is a strong argument that he broke the law. The signs are unmistakable, and ought to be seized on.

I’ve been an hopeless addict of the Powerline Blog long before I even started this blog, because I find it genuinely fascinating how far they are willing to push the Bush-worship envelope, how they will never even hint at an inkling of a possibility that George Bush is wrong about anything or has done anything improper or that his critics are ever right about even small things. Never, ever. They plainly don’t see themselves as citizens holding their government officials accountable, but rather as lawyers zealously devoted to only one cause -- justifying the conduct of their client no matter what, and their client is George Bush.

That’s why it was so jarring and truly shocking to read that Paul disagrees with the other two Bush fanatics (literally the only time I’ve seen that happen) because Paul has confessed that there is a good argument to make that George Bush broke the law:


I think it's well-settled enough that, in the absence of a congressional enactment purporting to limit him, the president has the constitutional authority to carry out warrantless surveillance to obtain national security information. But if Congress purports to limit this power, thus creating the situation where Justice Jackson viewed the president's power as weakest, I think the issue is open.

And it wasn’t just some momentary lapse of obedience on Paul’s part, because he repeated much the same thing yesterday when expressing disagreement with the "Bush-did-no-wrong" Wall St. Journal Op-Ed by Robert F. Turner, in the process relying on conservative law Professor Orin Kerr's conclusion that Bush broke the law:

Orin Kerr at the Volokh Conspiracy responds to the Wall Street Journal column by Robert F. Turner regarding the legality of the NSA intercept program. Kerr believes, as I do, that the question of whether the program violates FISA is a difficult one, and that the answer depends on details about the program that we mostly don't know. However, Kerr contends that if the intercept program does violate FISA, it cannot successfully be defended on the theory that FISA is an unconstitutional usurpation of the president's inherent authority under Article II. According to Kerr, the question isn't even close. . . . As such, I can't say that either side would have a slam dunk case if it turned out that the intercept program violates FISA.

It’s true that Paul is not saying that Bush broke the law, only that it’s an "open question" - but that really is like a defense attorney suddenly ceasing to defend his client in open court and declaring his client’s guilt to be "an open question." When one's own attorney admits the real possibility of guilt, that is a rather strong indictment. To even read on Powerline that it is an "open" and "difficult" question whether George Bush broke the law is amazing, and quite revealing.

Conservative condemnation of Bush’s illegality is growing. Hardcore conservatives with unimpeachable conservative credentials, from Bob Barr to Reagan Justice Department official Bruce Fein have aggressively argued that Bush’s conduct is intolerably illegal and dangerous. To get a sense for what a Conservative True Believer Fein is, this is what he said in February of this year:


President George W. Bush should pack the United States Supreme Court with philosophical clones of Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas and defeated nominee Robert H. Bork. Multiple vacancies will inescapably arise in his second term. Senate Republicans should vote against the Senate filibuster rule as applied to thwart a floor vote for judicial nominees unconstitutional and unenforceable.

That’s the same Bruce Fein who, in dismissing Bush's legal defenses as "nonsense," is now arguing that:

Congress should insist the president cease the spying unless or until a proper statute is enacted or face possible impeachment. The Constitution's separation of powers is too important to be discarded in the name of expediency.


There are plenty of others, from right-wing bloggers to pro-Bush pundits, who have been similarly aggressive in their criticism of George Bush’s illegal conduct. And even Republican senators have increasingly expressed real concern about Bush’s belief that he has the power to violate the laws they pass.

All of this is being noticed in the pro-Bush circles, whose members love to depict every Bush scandal as nothing more than the fevered paranoia of "liberal critics," but have been forced to acknowledge that the criticisms of Bush here go beyond that, to include, as Cliff May sneeringly put it, "the left and their libertarian allies" (even life-long conservatives who criticize Bush instantaneously cease to be "conservatives" by virtue of the well-known and slightly-amended Digby axiom: "'Conservative' is a magic word that applies to those who are in other conservatives' good graces. Until they aren't. At which point they are liberals" [or "libertarians"]).

And the revelation yesterday that even Bush’s own political appointees in the Justice Department expressed serious reservations about the program’s legality -- to the point where the number 2 official at Bush's DoJ refused to authorize it -- should, by itself, preclude anyone from claiming that the view that George Bush broke the law is some sort of hysterical left-wing hyperbole.

There will, of course, continue to be those shrill voices whose reverence for George Bush and belief in his infallibility really is the stuff of a creepy personality cult, to the point where they actually believe that when a newspaper reports on illegal behavior by Bush officials, the real outrage is that the newspaper is acting seditiously and the paper and their sources should be punished as criminals. It's the same mentality driving those who still insist that there really were WMDs in Iraq. Tbogg begins the New Year with a thorough examination of this genuinely disturbing/disturbed mentality.

(And in that regard, one should extend a hearty New Year’s congratulations to Instapundit, who has always precariously hid behind a thinly veiled pretense of open-mindendess where Bush was concerned. With the New Year, he has apparently resolved to rid himself of that play-acting, and thus proudly declared this morning that he is a card-carrying Bush cult member by arguing that the one and only culprit in this whole NSA matter is . . . The New York Times, for damaging national security by reporting on Bush's illegality.)

But this mindset has been shrinking, discernibly, in the last year. Former Bush loyalists are now, in droves, expressing discomfort or worse with George Bush generally and specifically with his claimed right to break the law, and that is something we have not seen before. It is a clear and hopeful deviation from the scandal-suffocating cycle described so astutely by Peter Daou.

Conservatives who still believe in something beyond George Bush ascribe, genuinely, to a belief in the rule of law and to real limitations on the powers of the Federal Government – the two principles most directly under assault by the Administration’s illegal conduct and by the accompanying Yooian theories of the Omnipotent Unchecked Executive who wields the right to break the law.

And beyond that, Americans of every ideological stripe have an instinctive aversion to political leaders who claim the right to break the law. That is not a naive aspiration. These are deeply ingrained political principles, drummed into us from the time we first attend school. Those are the values which pervade every discussion of "America," the founding fathers, the Constitution. Even Americans who agree on nothing else know, even if only on the most submerged and basest levels, that what distinguishes America from other countries and what keeps us safe and secure in our liberty is that nobody, including the President, is above the law. People know that the claim that someone should be above the law is the mark of a tyrant claiming a power that is as arrogant and dangerous as it is un-American.

Those are the values under assault with the NSA scandal. Complex Fourth Amendment claims or counter-intuitive, legalistic arguments that abstract rights of privacy should trump our security are going to get Bush critics exactly nowhere. But emphasizing the universal and most deeply ingrained values which hold that we are a nation of laws and that nobody is above the law -- values which are even causing steadfast Bush supporters to criticize the Administration’s lawlessness here – clearly has the power to smash the Daou cycle. And the more it is emphasized that there are scores of non-liberals and non-partisans who are refusing to acquiesce to George Bush’s lawlessness, the more potent those arguments will be.

50 comments:

  1. Anonymous3:53 PM

    Glenn, I hope you are right, but I am not as optomistic. I don't believe in the idea of a principled conservative. I think in the end they will fall behind their Dear Leader. But we'll see.

    The one thing you are definitely right about is that this is about breaking the law. Not anything else. That will take away the national security stick which conservatives use to beat up liberals. We want eavesdropping, too. We just want the President to obey the law.

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  2. Anonymous4:03 PM

    Mr. Greenwald, This is a brilliant exposition of where we are in this scandal and where we should go. I hope it is widely read. And listened to.

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  3. I'm hopeful you're right about more conservatives speaking up. The step in the Daou Cycle that I find the most frustrating, however, is step 3, the one about poorly prepped Democratic surrogates getting creamed on talk shows. It always astounds me that so many Democrats and liberals are so easily sucked into straw man arguments, that they so easily lose sight of the real issues. This scandal has everything do to with the rule of law and separation of powers. 4th Amendment and privacy issues are of secondary importance and, frankly, are not winning political issues. But everyone should be able to understand that the president's chief duty is to see that our laws are faithfully executed. It's troubling to say the least that so few conservatives are willing to admit that the president's justification for this spying program is highly problematic, that there is no logical limiting principle when the president has the unilateral authority to disregard the law.

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  4. Anonymous4:31 PM

    I don't believe in the idea of a principled conservative.

    They don't believe in those like you, either.

    Really, what an insulting declaration. Along with pious and genyle lefty Jake in some thread below posting a grossly bigoted dismissal of soccer moms as mindless, consumerist fembots. (I have a very lovely daughter-in-law who certainly fits the description of soccer mom and she voted for Bush, albeit with some ambivalence; she is smart as well as principled.) The great unwashed masses understand that a lot of leftists despise them, and return the favor.

    Glenn is exactly correct in where the focus must be in this NSA matter; it has NOTHING to do with whether Americans would support the program, as I'm guessing they would, depending on details we don't know. But they do understand notions of being above the law, and that this violates core principles of our civil compact -- the core principle. Liberal/left people as arrogant and full of self-righteous superiority as you should not speak to or about Bush supporters, if this issue is to be properly argued to the public.

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  5. Anonymous5:57 PM

    I've been reading your blog for a few weeks now, and I must say that at first you appeared more reasonable than the standard hysterical highly ethnocentric leftist Bush hater. While I disagreed with the quality and results of your legal analyses, they were at first presented with some degree of objective inquiry. However, as the days and weeks have progressed your rhetoric has become more and more shrill and filled with invective, while the content itself has declined appreciably.

    This latest rant of yours is a perfect example of the above. Full of conclusions and derisive statements, and little real thought and analysis. You speak now in the code words of the left which are effective to the choir of lefties here, but devoid of content and reasoning to a great extent.

    I was glad to see the following in this particular post of yours:

    "But emphasizing the universal and most deeply ingrained values which hold that we are a nation of laws and that nobody is above the law -- "

    How then does the above square with you defense of the leakers of the NSA and Secret Prison stories which are clear violations of laws enacted by Congress? How do you justify someone who is NOT the President and NOT invested in any Presidential authority choosing to intentionally violate the laws of Congress, and severely endangering our war effort and giving aid and comfort to the enemy thereby? How do you countenance the New York Times' traitorous cooperation with these law breakers for profit when you claim to hold so dear that all people including the President must bow to any law passed by Congress?

    How do you spell Hypocrite?

    Its good that you have with this post abandoned the arguments of 4th amendment, inherent authority and FISA technicalities, because those arguments are all losers and show the President did not violate the law as you disingenuously claim so often.

    However, I'm afraid your latest tactic of trying to simplify the issue to one of "Everyone, even the President must follow the law" will lose to the President's retort which was stated earlier today in a brief news conference from a military hospital. The President quite rightly has given the following retort that will be conclusive to your latest arguments:

    "If al Qaeda is calling you, we want to know why. I think that's reasonable."

    More than 51% of Democrats and 57% of independents will agree with that sentiment, and the more you and all like you on the left keep attacking the President, for stating, in effect, Yes I have been protecting you in the past, and yes I am protecting you now, and yes I will continue to protect you for as long as I am President, the more the President's popularity and support will rise.

    Says "the Dog"

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  6. Anonymous6:06 PM

    Jonathan Schell's editorial on this subject is eloquent (as always).

    "With Bush's defense of his wiretapping, the hidden state has stepped into the open. The deeper challenge Bush has thrown down, therefore, is whether the country wants to embrace the new form of government he is creating by executive fiat or to continue with the old constitutional form...

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  7. Anonymous6:21 PM

    hypatia, sweets, YOU brought up soccer moms, not me. And if you think something's wrong with callin' 'em as I see 'em, well, get over it. If the soccer moms had a clue, Bush would never have been reelected. If you don't want your daughter-in-law included in the pejorative category of soccer mom, don't put her there.

    Grossly bigoted! LOL! Good one, hypatia. I was beginnin' ta think you had no spine at all.

    Frankly, probably if you stick with straight English, craig overstpped his meaning a little. But when you take a look at the actions and positions of men and women who CALL themselves conservatives, it's hard to argue with his statement. The word has been hi-jacked, hypatia. Hi-jacked by unprincipled scoundrels, money grubbing war mongerers and thieves. Just think of Duke Cunningham and Jack Abramoff. Or Pat Robertson. Think of them and you will begin to get an idea of how "conservatism" has been twisted to mean something entirely different from the word itself.

    What does "pious and genyle" mean? I don't get it. I am certainly not the first and I can't parse the second.

    I don't despise people - I hate it when people don't think. Maybe you could tell. I LIKE people, hypatia. I have developed considerable respect for yor position. I respect and appreciate the thought you have put into most of your responses.

    The left despises the unwashed masses? BS. The right is a user, an abusive spouse, whipsawing the emotions and health of rest of us to meet their own sick ends. You read as principled and thoughtful woman. I can't for the life of me understand how you support Bush. I understand that you disliked Kerry just too much to vote for him.

    Still, I wish you had. You and about 20 million other people.

    Jake

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  8. Anonymous6:27 PM

    What hypatia said, craig-sf. I think that Mr. Greenwald's post supports his hypothesis quite well. He's not claiming that it's the majority of self-identified conservatives, but that this is the test which will separate the wheat from the chaff. Remember the popular vote percentages last year? It's pretty likely that at least a few genuine conservatives voted for the other guy. Bruce Bartlett, for one, was certainly toying with it, while criticizing this administration's fiscal policy. And for others...well, better late than never.

    hypatia, in tepid defense of craig-sf, I would suggest that he has missed your previous comments agreeing with many of Mr. Greenwald's points on this wiretapping matter. Perhaps he only tuned in to the Truman post below, and read:

    he did not want to believe that FDR's New Deal program had been significantly constituted by traitors

    and

    by a GOP that was touting the Democrats as the party of Communism, a not entirely baseless characterization.

    and decided that such shrill, bilous statements about the Democratic Party and the New Deal were yet another example of the thinking of a "principled conservative." Your comment in this thread would then make him suspect that "principled conservative" equals "stinking hypocrite," which is not the impression Mr. Greenwald was going for. So put away the smelling salts over insulting declarations.

    --mds

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  9. Anonymous6:37 PM

    to the dog;

    Let's see, outing an NOC for political spite on the one hand and uncovering illegal administration activities on the other. hmmmmmmm.

    If you don't get the difference, then you are more than a little ethically challenged. It hasn't a damn thing to do with hypocrisy. Bush is the hyporite, trying to hide wrongdoing behind a screen of "national security". Bush has probably exposed more of the NSA stuff trying to argue away the illegality then the original "leak".

    Give me a clue, here, Dog, just how did revealing the black sites and the NSA stuff compromise national security? How did it provide aid and comfort to the enemy? Do you think the Islamofascists didn't alreay know about the black sites? didn't already know they were being wiretapped every which way from Sunday?

    Dog, your ignorance is showing. Pull up your pants, will you? When you say this, you prove to that you haven't a clue what this whole discussion is about -

    "If al Qaeda is calling you, we want to know why. I think that's reasonable."

    You know what? Everybody agrees with that. You know what else? FISA permitted that. All the pres had to do was tell the secret court afterwards. Except Ashcroft was too busy worrying about porn to process the FISA requests in a timely manner, and Bush got tired of doing it legally and chose to do it illegally - without a warrant of any kind. The point is, he was given the right by FISA. The Act obligated him to follow a very minimal oversight regimen. But he didn't like it, so he didn't. But ya know what? That ain't how the law works. Even the pres is supposed to follow the law.

    Jake

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  10. Anonymous6:45 PM

    Its good that you have with this post abandoned the arguments of 4th amendment, inherent authority and FISA technicalities

    Uh, well, there's a link in the post to the previous post about how the adminstration has acknowledged that they weren't complying with FISA, as well as numerous links to analyses of how the President broke the law, several by staunch conservatives. Perhaps someone can slowly read to you the dictionary definition of "abandoned."

    I do like the fact that you think that ordinary citizens and the press should be held to a higher standard than the President when it comes to upholding the law, though. And I'm curious about the explicit statute that says, "Regardless of the First Amendment, the Press shall not report to the people about illegal activities by their government." I guess I slept through that Con Law class. Of course, the Times did violate national security by revealing that it's possible to...um...wiretap telephone conversations. Next week: the Washington Post harms national security by revealing to the terrorists how to make fire.

    "If al Qaeda is calling you, we want to know why. I think that's reasonable."

    Me, too. And so does the FISA court. So get a fucking retroactive warrant from them, Mr. President.

    Wait, was "the Dog" more of that troll performance art that's been going around? Because it so perfectly illustrates the pathological talking points of the "unprincipled conservatives," that it seems a little too coincidental.

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  11. Anonymous6:48 PM

    Sheesh, too slow to hit "Publish" again. To sum up much of my previous (unsigned) post: What Jake said. Er, and great minds think alike.

    --mds

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  12. Anonymous6:50 PM

    Over at Orin Kerr's latest NSA post, near the end of comments one "Polaris," who claims to have worked for the NSA, and who is fretting about how much he can say and already has said, insists that Bush has not violated FISA. He points out that the original NYT story "made no mention of FISA violations (becuase [sic] there weren't any) but of possible fourth amendment violations (and we all seem to agree that is passes 4th amendment muster)."

    He claims that technology has rendered relevant portions of FISA moot; a sample of some of his points:


    Without going into details which are (very) classified, suffice it to say that virtually no intercepts are made in US Territory which renders section 2 moot. That means that the other sections apply, and a reasonable expectation of privacy must exist....and it does not for international communications....

    What's more, NSA Personelle act under treaty agreements with other nations and act as agents of said nation (with regard to surveillance) which renders FISA moot....

    You might not like it (and I am not thrilled which is one reason I no longer work for the NSA), but under the strictest letter of the regulation and law what Bush is doing IS LEGAL. FISA doesn't apply to international communication regardless of what the stated intent of FISA was. What's more it never has. I can attest to that from personal experience....

    The point is that with modern technology and TK systems (which I really can't go into), FISA is a dead letter....and has been for decades....

    The reason you haven't heard the argument is that a FULL explaination requires a TS/SCI (TK) clearence. I have come about as close as I could to explaining it without breaking the law myself. Suffice it to say that all the major switches for modern telecommunications for international calls are NOT (technically) in the US. That's what makes 1801 (f) 2 a dead letter.


    I'm totally incompetent to know whether this is all true, but I have wondered if something like it might not be the case. On the other hand, this would not explain the apparent unwillingness of some former Bush DoJ staff to sign off on the program.

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  13. Anonymous7:04 PM

    Jake,

    Plame wasn't an NOC, no law was broken in disclosing the fact that she rode a desk everyday at Langley. Get your facts straight.

    The President hasn't broken the law as you falsely claim, and yes people who aren't the President aren't invested with constitutional authority and therefore have no basis for arguing its ok if they ignored something Congress said. That's logical and quite correct.

    You can't keep talking out of both sides of your mouth. If you say that the President has no authority to ignore a statute passed by Congress, implicitly arguing that the President must follow even unconstitutional laws, then there is obviously less legal authority for those who are NOT the President to fail to comply with the laws passed by Congress.

    The leakers are clearly law breakers. They have violated specific laws passed by congress. If you are not a lying hypocrite with only a left winged biased agenda then you can not applaud their treasonous law breaking behavior while arguing the President must obey all laws as a matter of principle.

    Anonymous, I never said the New York Times damaging our national security interests by publishing for profit illegally leaked information. Instead of a con law class, perhaps a remedial course on reading comprehension was what you really needed. I said their actions were treasonous and done for nothing more noble than profit and notoriety.

    I eagerly await the day when severally of their reporters are frog marched to prison for failing to reveal their sources of this illegal activity. I await with greater hope and anticipation the day when the criminal traitor/leakers are frog marched into prison for their dangerous criminal behavior.

    I'm also looking forward to the indictment of some reporters and publisher's if they fail to meet the Scooter Libby standard which is that if you can't remember every exact detail of every conversation you've had over the last 2 years then you are not guilty of being a very busy public servant but are guilty instead of having a criminally faulty memory. I'm sure there are or will be many criminally faulty memories at the New York Times and Washington Post and they deserve to have their careers and lives and families ruined just like Scooter Libby. Anything else would be a travesty of justice.

    Says "the Dog"

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  14. Anonymous7:04 PM

    hypatia, without going into the algorithms and the equipment, no one knows for sure. But this much IS sure - why not change the law to accomodate the technology? If there is no harm being done to individuals or to the constitution, then explain it to the congress and get it passed. What we read is that Bush floated a trial balloon to that end and got shot down. So he just did it anyway. Which bothers me a whole lot - not the doing it anyway, I mean, yes that does bother me, but if the people he spoke to couldn't see their way to getting the legislation changed, do you think that was because it was too complicated, or because it likely violated some cherished American principle, such as those embodied in the constitution? If I trusted Bush, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and say the first, but I don't trust him, and I take door #2.

    This constant mistrust of the president is very wearing. I'd like nothing more than to be able to say, he is a good man and he is a careful and lawful President. I can't say that. Maybe the next president we elect will be a little more up front and a little less prone to dropping the ball.

    Jake

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  15. Anonymous7:04 PM

    mds gets it wrong:
    and decided that such shrill, bilous statements about the Democratic Party and the New Deal were yet another example of the thinking of a "principled conservative." Your comment in this thread would then make him suspect that "principled conservative" equals "stinking hypocrite," which is not the impression Mr. Greenwald was going for. So put away the smelling salts over insulting declarations.


    An accurate statement of historical fact is neither shrill nor bilious. FDR's New Deal Administration -- as well as large sections of the defense industry at the time -- was infiltrated by Stalinists, hundreds of whom spied for the genocidal Marxist tyrant named Joseph Stalin. FDR was told in 1939 of this, by his Cabinet member Adolf Berle, after Whittaker Chambers met with Berle and informed him of the espionage rings, one of which Chambers had run. FDR simply rejected the notion as nonsense.

    It wasn't nonsense. And by the late 1940s non-Stalinist liberal Democrats in organizations like the Americans for Democratic Action took strong steps to purge the Communist who had infected their party. That is history, bilious or not.

    And btw, I'm not a conservative, principled or otherwise; I'm one of those nasty libertarians the Cornerites periodically pillory for forging alliances with liberals. I also vomit in the presence of preening self-righteousness when spewed by leftist lovers of all humanity who nevertheless hate and/or ridicule the culture of Middle America.

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  16. I've been reading your blog for a few weeks now, and I must say that at first you appeared more reasonable than the standard hysterical highly ethnocentric leftist Bush hater . . . . However, as the days and weeks have progressed your rhetoric has become more and more shrill and filled with invective, while the content itself has declined appreciably.

    Dog - You can't please everyone, but I will say this. I spent two weeks after the NYT first disclosed this scandal writing long post after long post - usually more than one a day -- setting forth my views as to why the Administration's behavior was unquestionably illegal and why the legal defenses being offered to justify that behavior were frivolous if not dangerous.

    That's the premise from which I now operate -- that George Bush broke clearly and deliberately broke the law, and that he has vowed to continue to do so. But I didn't just wake up one day and start mindlessly spitting out this conclusion without doing the work to set forth the rationale underlying that belief. You can agree or disagree with my rationale, but I don’t think you can fairly accuse me of engaging in conclusory name-calling on this issue or simply jumping to some anti-Bush conclusion with no stated basis and/or without bothering to refute, in detail and in substance, the arguments advanced on behalf of George Bush.

    Put simply, I think George Bush has become corrupted by the unhealthy post-9/11 reverence he enjoyed -- from both the media and Democrats -- and by the fact that the GOP control of virtually the entire government, combined with a scared population in a “wartime” climate, meant there have been virtually no impediments to his will. That’s not a desirable state of affairs for our government. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and with the monarchic powers he is claiming for himself, it’s clear, to me at least, that this power has corrupted him and his Administration at its core. I didn’t start off thinking that way. There are things the Administration did which I have liked, and I think many of the accusations against Bush, especially early on, were overblown or unfair. But the corruption has evolved over time and I think we have a real crisis in our country.

    How that makes me a "leftist" is truly mystifying -- which was, ironically, the point of my post: the reality is that core conservative principles ought to drive - and are driving - many intellectually honest conservatives to look at this scandal as a bridge too far -- way too far -- in supporting George Bush, because it constitutes such a profound assault on two core conservative principles, the rule of law and a limited, unintrusive federal government.

    Several people have started to write on their blogs or in comments here that I now sounds like some sort of Bush-hating “leftist.” To me, that just really illustrates that for many so-called “conservatives,” the world begins and ends not with conservatism but with George Bush, and one is now a "conservative" if one remains loyal to George Bush, but one is a "liberal" if one does not. That doesn't resemble any type of "conservatism" as I've ever understood the term. That's much more like a cult of personality which I want no part of.

    The reality is that I am not close to a "leftist" as that term was, prior to George Bush, understood. I have at least as many positions on specific issues which are closer to the right than to the left, and I've written about some, but not all, of them here. I don't go out of my way to try to figure out what label I merit or convince others to call me one instead of the other, but I tend to agree with those who describe themselves as libertarians more than anything else. I don't like unwarranted government intrusion of any type, either from the right or the left, and I believe in the Founders’ promise of an extremely limited Federal Government with only those enumerated powers set forth in the Constitution, as well as a highly restrained Executive.

    Before George Bush came along with his merry band of worshipers behind of him, none of that made someone a “liberal.” To me, the most pressing issue which the country faces, by far, is the hegemony which a corrupt Republican Party wields over our political institutions (corrupt in many of the ways the Democratic Party was when it had similar hegemony, but in many ways far beyond that) and the way in which it has put an Administration in office which is corrupt not just in the widespread “Jack Abrahamoff/selling-Iraq cronyism” which characterizes almost everything it does, but, more importantly, in the way that it has decided that loyalty to George Bush outweighs every other value and national concern, leading up to the belief that he can violate the law. And that anyone who objects is an American-hating “leftist.”

    I'll make common cause with anyone who shares the view that the Bush Administration is now corrupt and who views undermining the Bush Administration’s assault on our liberties and principles of government to be the first priority. If you feel that makes me some sort of mindless leftist, go right ahead and name-call on, but I think what it really shows is that you see the world with George Bush at the Center, and whether one has allegiance to him, the man, to be the defining attribute outweighing all else. That isn't healthy -- politically or emotionally -- and it's definitely not conservative.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Anonymous7:55 PM

    Dog, you've got me wondering if I've fallen down a rabbit hole. Valerie Plame most certainly WAS a NOC agent of the CIA. The fact that her LAST job was at a desk at the CIA doesn't change what she once was. Being an NOC is one of those foever things - unless, of course, the pres and his buddies out you.

    Congress said something? I am sure there are laws regarding offical secrets. I believe ours are less draconian than in some other countries, but maybe you coiuld be more specific as to which laws you refer. Otherwise, it's sounds to me like total bs from someone without a clue.

    Now you are deciding which laws are constitutional? hmmm. Good work if you can get it. I don't think you got the tools, son. Best take up another line of work. MickeyD's comes to mind.

    And I don't mean in management, either.

    Actually, it will be interesting to see how the leak thing plays out. It seems the data from the illegal wiretaps was broadly disseminated in the DOJ community. Who knows, it may not have even been leaked by someone who knew it was super secret special agent stuff. In any case, maybe the whistleblower rules work come into play. THe little I have read says that those laws weren't written for this kind of thing, bt we shall see.

    Treason, like beauty, must be one of those things that lies in the eye of the beholder, I guess. Frankly, if the wiretap leak proves to show criminal activity on the part of the administration, I hope we find the leaker and GIVE HER A MEDAL! And some money, 'cause medals don't buy groceries.

    Scooter and his buddies outed Plane on purpose. There ism't any forgetting involved, Dog. Hiding is more likely. Hiding the truth. The grand jury surely thought so. You know, the whole "peers" thing? But time will tell. We will get to see what a court of law decides - no need for you and I to try to prejudge the case. I'm ok with that. Are you?

    Frogmarched. Yeah, we both want to see that. It's just that I want to see Bush, Cheney et al doing the marching.

    Jake

    ReplyDelete
  18. Anonymous8:30 PM

    Hypatia, conservatives supported Reagan breaking the law in Iran-Contra, George Bush's officials breaking it to disclose Valerie Plame's identity, and they continue to support Bush even as he drives up government spending (beyond the military) and a huge deficit and increases the power of the Federal Government in every relm. In other words they support him because he's a republican even though he violates all of their beliefs.

    Where is the principled part of that?

    ReplyDelete
  19. Anonymous8:52 PM

    Hypatia, conservatives supported Reagan breaking the law in Iran-Contra, George Bush's officials breaking it to disclose Valerie Plame's identity, and they continue to support Bush even as he drives up government spending (beyond the military) and a huge deficit and increases the power of the Federal Government in every relm. In other words they support him because he's a republican even though he violates all of their beliefs.

    And the feminist establishment, as well as most liberals, gave Bill Clinton's sexual moves on female subordinates and others a pass, and joined the shrill cries that "just" lying about sex is no big deal, when the deal actually was perjury in a sexual harasssment case. I thought sexual harassment was a deeply serious assault on women -- as the venerated St. Anita of Hill taught us -- but I guess not. Not when it is commited by a favored son, whose campaign to depict his accusers us "nutty and slutty" was tacitly endorsed as, well, ok for Bill to do.

    Yet, I would not declare there is no such thing as a principled feminist or liberal. Would you?

    ReplyDelete
  20. Hypatia - That comment you quoted from makes no sense. The law on its face covers international communications regardless of where the surveillance takes place. It's a law intended to protect American citizens against abusive intrusions by the Executive; it doesn't matter where the machine is that does that intrusion.

    And AGAIN - the Administration ADMITS that its surveillance is NOT within the parameters of FISA. From the new TIME article, much of which is written from the perspective of anonymous Administration sources making their case:

    It didn't take long [after 9/11] before an aggressive idea emerged from the circle of Administration hawks. Liberalize the rules for domestic spying, they urged. Free the National Security Agency (NSA) to use its powerful listening technology to eavesdrop on terrorist suspects on U.S. soil without having to seek a warrant for every phone number it tracked. But because of a 1978 law that forbids the NSA to conduct no-warrant surveillance inside the U.S., the new policy would require one of two steps. The first was to revise the law. The other was to ignore it.

    In the end, George Bush tried the first. When that failed, he opted for the second. In 2002 he issued a secret Executive Order to allow the NSA to eavesdrop without a warrant on phone conversations, e-mail and other electronic communications, even when at least one party to the exchange was in the U.S.-- the circumstance that would ordinarily trigger the warrant requirement. For four years, Bush's decision remained a closely guarded secret.


    The Administration knew that the eavesdropping it wanted to do wasn't authorized by FISA. They admit that. Their whole claim is that they couldn't stay within FISA and therefore founds ways to go outside of it. Don't you think that if there were plausible arguments to make that they didn't violate FISA, they'd be making them?

    ReplyDelete
  21. Anonymous9:11 PM

    The Administration knew that the eavesdropping it wanted to do wasn't authorized by FISA. They admit that. Their whole claim is that they couldn't stay within FISA and therefore founds ways to go outside of it. Don't you think that if there were plausible arguments to make that they didn't violate FISA, they'd be making them?

    You could be entirely right. However, what if that NSA guy is on to something, in that the technology involved is "top secret" and so precludes the public defense? Are you saying that on the face of FISA no "way up in the sky" interceptions would lie outside the statute? He says NSA has always felt that FISA is moot in light of the tech they use; I'm no expert (and maybe he is a fake or otherwise full of crap). Do you say he is flatly wrong no matter what the technology is?

    Even Kerr says it is hard to pass on whether FISA has been violated without knowing more about the technology.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Anonymous9:57 PM

    Glenn Greenwald,

    FISA on its face only applies to domestic surveillance of a US Person. Whether or not an international call is "domestic" for purposes of FISA is unclear.

    Further, FISA on its face only applies to US Persons who are KNOWN TARGETS of the surveillance. When the target of the surveillance is a non-US person and UNKNOWN individuals who may or may not be US Persons, they are NOT KNOWN US Persons and therefore NOT covered by FISA.

    Finally, FISA absolutely does NOT cover surveillance of anyone, US Person or NOT, when the surveillance takes place OUTSIDE the USA. That is the clear language of the statute.

    Therefore, for all the reasons stated above it is not at all clear that the surveillance program violated FISA whatsoever, and if it didn't the argument that FISA is unconstitutional to the extent it encroaches upon the President's inherent Article II powers isn't even reached. If it is reached there is ample argument from many well qualified lawyers that it is an unconstitutional encroachment upon the President's Article II powers.

    Now for a policy question. If FISA by its own terms does NOT apply to surveillance interceptions conducted outside the USA (which it doesn't), then in today's global world of instantaneous electronic communications just how silly is it for the left to get their panties all in a wad over surveillance of a conversation between the enemy at a time of war and a collaborating US Person when it is perfectly legal to listen to the very same conversation, about the very same things, between the very same people, if such surveillance is conducted by taping something just across the border in Mexico or Canada or just outside the territorial waters of the USA. How silly is it for us to endanger our lives if the surveillance is conducted on Virginia Beach versus on a boat lying 3 miles or 10 miles or 25 miles off the coast.

    That kind of sophistry is the kind of thinking that led all the liberals on the Supreme Court to eliminate the words "public use" from our constitution and is also the kind of sophistry that is argued solely for political purposes who want to endanger our lives and the lives of our children.

    Says the "Dog"

    ReplyDelete
  23. Anonymous10:49 PM

    Jake said:

    The fact that her LAST job was at a desk at the CIA doesn't change what she once was.

    Its not that you've fallen down the rabbit hole, its that I got you to lift your head up into the light that doesn't seep down into your particular that is the cause of your disorientation.

    Valerie Plame may have been a "covert agent" as defined by the law at one time in the PAST, as you suggest. However the fact remains she was NOT a "covert agent" at the time her employment with the CIA was made public. The special prosecutor agrees with this as no person has been charged with revealing the identity of a covert agent. The sole basis for the indictment against Scooter Libby was that his memory and recall of conversations 2 years old did match perfectly with the imperfect recall of some reporter's memory. That in my opinion is not an appropriate basis for ruining the life of a dedicated and selfless public servant who sought to serve the country at a great personal cost to himself in terms of his earnings and livelihood.

    However, the standard has been set at the instance of those like you and that means New York Times and Washington Post reporters need to be indicted and frog marched to prison if their memories of 2 year old conversations don't agree in every major detail with the two year old memories of those conversations by others.
    Jake said:
    maybe you could be more specific as to which laws you refer. Otherwise, it's sounds to me like total bs from someone without a clue.

    If you don't know which laws are at issue how do you know its BS and who is without a clue?

    Here is a clue for the clueless then:

    18 USC § 798 Disclosure of classified information

    PART I - CRIMES

    (a) Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information -

    (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code, cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or planned for use by the United States or any foreign government for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or

    (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes -
    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

    Jake said:
    Best take up another line of work. MickeyD's comes to mind.

    I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage as you obviously have more familiarity with MickeyD's workforce than I.

    Jake Said:
    In any case, maybe the whistleblower rules work come into play.

    Defending again the lawless violation of an act of congress. So much for principles that all persons must follow the laws passed by congress.

    Here's another clue. There is no whistleblower exception in the criminal statute above. Next, its not whistle blowing unless an abuse is disclosed. For example if the disclosure was the President has the NSA spying on the personal phone calls of all democrats in Congress then maybe that would be whistle blowing. However, it doesn't seem that the liberals think its a crime for the Whitehouse to have an enemies list of 900 FBI files illegally obtained by Hillary Clinton. ...but I digress.

    Says the "Dog"

    ReplyDelete
  24. Anonymous12:22 AM

    Dog, because Fitzgerald hasn't accused anyone of of what? What crime would that be? What he said was that he couldn't charge anything but obstruction because HE WAS OBSTRUCTED.

    You read it however you want. You can't put words in his mouth he didn't say. He didn't say she wasn't NOC, he didn't say she wasn't outed illegally, he said he didn't know.

    If Scooter does time, do you for one second imagine it'll be because it WAS OK WITH SCOOTER? Nope. It will be because Scooter lied and obstructed. If he does time for that, it works fine for me.

    Ya know, the pres didn't say he'd fire someone for outing Plame (then change his mind) because HE thought it was no big deal. He said it because it IS a big deal. It just turned that the outers were too close to him. No surprise there - Bush's convenience trumps the nation's needs every time.

    Like I said, Dog, once an NOC, always an NOC. Your partisanship is showing again. It's sort of like plumber's butt - kind of ugly and it makes you want to look the other way.

    Dog, getting aholt of files illegally is an issue. So much of what we have discussed here is hearsay and misinformation. I have no clue if Hillary has done something illegal. Shoot, it's your boys in the driver's seat. You want her up on charges, charge her. Don't whine to me about it.

    You are misinformed on so many issues. Let's just take the plain language of your own cite -

    "a) Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information - "

    Uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the US or for the benefit of any foreign gov. I don't think making Bush look bad (not that it's hard to do) counts as prejudicial to the US. Frankly, I think the man has it coming.

    I don't think there is much of a case. Bush revealed more today than the leak revealed in total. Or didn't you know that Bush described rather more than anyone else just what the program does? That is, if you can believe him. Which I don't.

    Dog, you're backin' the wrong pony. He's pullin' up lame, and I hope he ends up on the scrap heap sooner rather than later. I'll settle for him just being GONE.

    You can mis-argue bits and pieces of the law all day, and it won't change one thing. It won't change Bush into a leader, it won't change the Iraq war into anything but a disaster, and it won't change the bulk of the republican leadership into honest and principled human beings.

    When you can do that last thing, you won't have to keep coming back here to get insulted for your lack of insight. Until then, you are a part of the problem, not the solution.

    Jake

    ReplyDelete
  25. Anonymous2:15 AM

    Regarding Valerie Plame's status at the CIA and the revelation of her identity to persons not authorized to recieve that information.
    From the Libby indictment:
    b. In connection with his role as a senior government official with
    responsibilities for national security matters, LIBBY held security clearances entitling him to accessto classified information. As a person with such clearances, LIBBY was obligated by applicable
    laws and regulations, including Title 18, United States Code, Section 793, and Executive Order
    12958 (as modified byExecutive Order13292), not to disclose classified information to persons not authorized to receive such information, and otherwise to exercise propercare to safeguard classified information against unauthorized disclosure. On or about January 23, 2001, LIBBY executed a written “Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement,” stating in part that “I understand and accept that by being granted access to classified information, special confidence and trust shall be
    placed in me by the United States Government,” and that “Ihave been advised that the unauthorized disclosure, unauthorized retention, or negligent handlingofclassified information bymecould cause
    damage or irreparable injuryto the United States or could be used to advantage bya foreign nation.”

    d.
    The responsibilities of certain CIA employees required that their association with the CIA be kept secret; as a result, the fact that these individuals were employed bythe CIA was classified. Disclosure of the fact that such individuals were employed by the CIA had the potential
    to damage the national security in ways that ranged from preventing the future use of those individuals in a covert capacity,tocompromising intelligence-gathering methodsandoperations, and endangering the safety of CIA employees and those who dealt with them.......

    With his responsibilities for national security matters, Libby held
    security clearances giving himaccess to classified information. Libby was obligated by federal criminal
    statute, regulations, executive orders, and a written non-disclosure agreement not to disclose classified information to unauthorized persons, and to properly safeguard classified information against
    unauthorized disclosure. According to the indictment, on September 26, 2003, the Department of Justice and the FBI
    began a criminal investigation into the possible unauthorized disclosure of classified information regarding Valerie Wilson’s CIA affiliation to various reporters in the spring of 2003
    In other words, the CIA, the Grand Jury, the FBI, and the Federal prosecutor regarded Plame's occupation to be classified.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Finally, the Republican controlled Congress is beginning to realize that Bush's arrogance is threatening their own power...something they won't abide.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Anonymous3:28 AM

    Naked law breaking dressed up in royal robes. Oy. Even those who in the past have tailored their arguments to support Bush are looking at him with a quizzical look.

    The Bush response to criticism of spying on citizens is to offer a sound bite that no one will argue with.

    How dumb do these guys think the American people are?

    ReplyDelete
  28. Anonymous3:48 AM

    Anonymous,

    Yes you quoted all the boilerplate that is in the indictment that tries to make it look like there was some law violated by Scooter Libby with regard to Plame's employment with the CIA being revealed. However, what you don't quote because it isn't in the indictment is the part that says Scooter Libby is indicted for the crime of disclosing the identity of a "covert agent". That is the specific language for the specific applicable law he was appointed to investigate if it was violated or not.

    Scooter Libby is NOT indicted with violating that law. He is also NOT indicted for violating a law that says revealing that Joe Wilson's wife worked at the CIA was an unlawful disclosure of classified information.

    Go back and read the indictment and find the parts that say Libby is charged with violating this specific statute. You won't find a single word that says he is INDICTED for violating any law for disclosing classified information. The reason for that is he did NOT VIOLATE any laws related to disclosures of classified information. If he had he would have been charged with having done so. The prosecutor put in all that puffery about classified information to make it sound like Scooter had done something he hasn't been charged with doing. Its public relations on the part of the prosecutor and over-reaching towards a potential jury pool and nothing more. If you don't believe me just check the indictment and come back quote the parts that say Scooter Libby Broke XXXX specific law that makes it illegal to disclose classified information.

    When you re-read the indictment you will find that the sole basis for the two charges that are filed against Scooter Libby are the perjury and obstruction of justice. Both the perjury and obstruction of justice charges spring out of the very same facts. Those facts being that Scooter Libby forgot a conversation he had with somebody two years earlier and then when he was reminded of the conversation because it was mentioned in documents he freely turned over to the prosecutor Scooter's memory of the conversation didn't exactly match the other person's memory of the conversation.

    Well gee there's a surprise, two different people trying to remember a conversation from 2 years earlier don't remember it exactly the same way. That's hardly criminal yet that is EXACTLY and ONLY what Scooter Libby is charged with committing a crime about.

    Jake you need to learn to read. Those little words "or" in the sentence you quoted from have a different meaning than another little word called "and". You should try looking up the definitions on the internet before posting again because there is nothing quite so hilarious than an idiot who can't read lecturing others on the meanings of words and sentences. Just trying to help you, but I suspect you are much too comfortable in your illiteracy to accept any help.

    "a) Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information - "

    Uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the US or for the benefit of any foreign gov. I don't think


    Yes I think you've got it. You DON'T think because if you did and you could read you would realize that "uses in any manner prejudicial, etc." is just one of MANY ways to violate that law, and EACH way stands on its own because they are joined together in this thing called a sentence with these little words called conjunctives "OR". So you see, now follow along:

    1. Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person (that is a violation all by itself and is unrelated to the 3rd kind of violation that is about actions prejudicial to the safety, etc.)

    2. or publishes (again a violation all by itself because the use of the word "or" and unrelated to prejudicial to the safety, etc.)

    3. or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government (now that's the 3rd kind of violation but again that little word "or" is there so it is separate from the first two kinds of violations)

    And then the sentence closes with a prepositional phrase that applies to all 3 of the kinds of violations described above as:

    "to the detriment of the United States any classified information" shall be fined or imprisoned, etc.

    I would suggest repeating 5th grade English and relearning how to diagram a friggin sentence before you continue to parade your ignorance of basic reading comprehension skills all over the internet.

    Then Jake said:

    What he said was that he couldn't charge anything but obstruction because HE WAS OBSTRUCTED.

    Are you really this ignorant and uninformed or are you lying? Fitzpatrick never said this, and anyone else saying it is an idiot. Want to know why you are an idiot? Its because the alleged obstruction was Scooter Libby lied about not remembering a particular two year old conversation with a reporter, and then lied about what the conversation with reporter was about. Now think!! How does Fitzpatrick KNOW he lied?? Because the reporter had different memories and told a different story. Now let's try to reason two plus two here. If the obstruction is Libby lied and if the prosecutor claims he knows about the lies because he KNOWS THE TRUTH from the reporter THEN just what friggin piece of information doesn't the prosecutor know??? NOTHING. The prosecutor wasn't blocked at all from learning something about the event of the alleged obstruction. Nothing was obstructed from the Prosecutor you moron. Libby is charged with TRYING to obstruct the prosecutor. If Libby had been successful in obstructing the prosecutor then the prosecutor wouldn't have known he was obstructed.

    Regarding the rest of your pitiful attempts at insults and derision. I'm afraid these infantile attempts at put downs might wow the 4th graders that can't yet diagram a sentence, but I'm afraid it will take a lot more than the likes of you to give me a whipping. LOL

    Says the "Dog"

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  29. The way that Bush will worm out of this is already in action. Rather than admit he broke the law, he says it was okay for him to break the law. Eventually, it will be decided that it is not okay for him to break the law. He'll then say, "Okay, I won't do it anymore." The MSM will admire Bush again for "compromising" with his critics. The Republican Congress will sit on it's hands with some weak protests from a few Democrats. Then the MSM will tuck the story away with all the rest of the scandals.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Anonymous5:50 AM

    "the dog": "Regarding the rest of your pitiful attempts at insults and derision. I'm afraid these infantile attempts at put downs might wow the 4th graders that can't yet diagram a sentence, but I'm afraid it will take a lot more than the likes of you to give me a whipping. LOL"

    I guess it must be a trait of these dictatorship defenders that the longer they ramble on the more incoherent they become.

    It's obvious from "the dog's" first post, that Glenn's thoughtful argument was completely beyond him.

    I think everyone has to take his postings with a huge grain of salt. Nixon had his defenders even on the very day he fled the White House. "The dog's" arguments, such as they are, may not even represent what a majority of republicans are thinking.

    Oh yeah, as he repeated elsewhere:
    "I have been protecting you in the past, and yes I am protecting you now, and yes I will continue to protect you for as long as I am President, the more the President's popularity and support will rise."

    I think most of us would agree that the kind of protection they're selling is something that most Americans, jealous of our democratic traditions, would never tolerate. It's the protection of Big Brother and the all-knowing father-leader. It's a relationship with our leaders that's foreign to our system of checks and balances.

    But of course the most ironic part, is that it isn't even "protection" in the most basic sense. None of the constitutional safeguards are true barriers to protecting the country. If they were, we'd have come apart long before now. Rather we have a President who is so incompentent that even the enormous amount of power legally at his disposal, can't do the trick.

    As in all things, people who know what they're doing, play by the rules. People who don't, cheat. The difference between the two is how we tell law-makers from law-breakers, guardians of our liberties from complete jerks.

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  31. Great post Glenn. I agree that Bush critics should not submit a "right to privacy > national security" argument when going after Bush on this issue. Republicans and their propaganda machine that is the right-wing media, will spin it as treasonous, un-American and "irresponsible" attacks by the left. Just like they've done in recent weeks when the secret prisons network story broke out.

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  32. The way that Bush will worm out of this is already in action. . . . The Republican Congress will sit on it's hands with some weak protests from a few Democrats. Then the MSM will tuck the story away with all the rest of the scandals.


    I don't agree with this sentiment, which is commonly expressed by Bush opponents. Bush has won so many times that his opponents have internalized some sort of pre-ordained destiny of defeat -- where no matter what happens, Bush will win and they will lose.

    That type of thinking is always mythical and it is definitely os that here. Whether Bush gets away with his claimed law-breaking power exclusively depends upon one thing and one thing only: whether Americans allow him to get away with it. And whether that happens is a function of whether Americans end up being persuaded that this is a serious and dangerous abuse of power.

    Richard Nixon was an extraordinarily popular President - way more popular than Bush is now - when Watergate began. I believe the NSA scandal entails easy to understand principles which really will resonate with basic American values, and the thing that Bush is counting on - the thing that will help him most - is a defeatist attitude by his opponents which makes them give up in advance of actually fighting. He is not invulnerable and his victory is not ordained by God, despite what he and many of his follewers believe and what even many of his opponents have come implicitly to accept.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Anonymous2:08 PM

    Glenn,

    Another superb post, logically laying out the root issue.

    It is sad an ironic that, as on so many other sites, a blind defender of the lawless Presidency shouts at everyone who tries to think.

    I notice the Dog, in standard form, replaces volume with logic, quotes huge swaths of tagentally relevant law, while ignoring both the specifics and the broader implications of Bush's naked power grab.

    The idea is to kill debate by screaming long enough everyone with a brain, and to establish the idea that there is no neutrality, no objectivity.

    As Rob Cordrey said once on TDS, "John, the facts are biased against the President." If only it weren't so.

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  34. Anonymous2:17 PM

    Off topic, but what the hell...

    Clinton's sexual moves on female subordinates and others a pass, and joined the shrill cries that "just" lying about sex is no big deal, when the deal actually was perjury in a sexual harasssment case.

    1. It wasn't perjury, because the lie wasn't material. The fact that President Clinton had consensual oral sex with Monica Lewinsky does not tend to prove or disprove the allegation of attempted unconsented sex (harrassment) with Paula Jones.

    2. As to the subject of your allegation, you really should be more familiar with the case. Jones lost on a motion for summmary judgment- meaning a neural observer- a Judge (in this case, an apparant principled Rpublican)- said she had no case. This means no sexual harrasment.

    Therefore the alleged hypocrisy by feminists is an unfounded allegation on this particular point.

    As I said, this is not germane to the issue of whether Bush (who apparantly does not belong to the originalist school of constitutional interpretation) violated the law, but I wouldn't want some other person who also is unfamilar with the Paula Jones case to get a misconception based upon your factually incorrect assertion.

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  35. The following was posted to Digby, but I believe it's worthy of your consideration as well:

    Digby, I have to wonder whether they ever stopped wiretapping us, or whether the Church and Pike Commissions were simply a means to flush out some of the more ludicrous abuses while protecting the family jewels.

    The NSA is *part* of the Pentagon. (www.intelligence.gov/1-members.shtml) As such, it is largely free from Congressional oversight. When they want to do something off the books, they simply create a code name that declares it too secret to show to anyone. As we saw with the Iraq war, there is no effective oversight without review of the work product.

    Furthermore, it's no big deal to hide such an illegal operation. They grab *the entire* communications stream, or at least as much of it as is technically feasible. Then they query it for keywords. If the keyword is your phone number, it's called "wiretapping." But if the keywords were the area code and prefix and "Digby," it might not qualify as wiretapping. If they don't save what they see, they aren't even "recording" or "monitoring" you.

    Now, have they actually done this between the disclosure of Shamrock and Minaret and 9/11? I don't know. But I know that the only *real* safeguard has been the decency of the employees of the NSA.

    That's a lot too slim of a protection. FISA or not, it always has been.


    And, yes, this scandal is all about lawbreaking and about the worship of an individual as a god. It's also about how law means nothing without oversight.

    Thanks for this very good post.

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  36. Glenn,
    Can a President acting in his official capacity even break a law? I say no. Presidents' are not subject to indictment when carrying out their official capacity. The Office by its very nature, as we read the councils office memos of Judge Alito provide, make every effort to determine precedence of the Office, seek legal council, act based on that council. As the Hamdi case reveals, the Court became the final determinant of Executive actions. The Bush Administration denied Hamdi habeas corpus, the Court disagreed. Did the President break the law in Hamdi? The Presidency is an institution not a person, your "law breaking" argument is a partisan narrative but not realistic.

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  37. Glenn Greenwald said:
    "Whether Bush gets away with his claimed law-breaking power exclusively depends upon one thing and one thing only: whether Americans allow him to get away with it."

    Glenn, that is only partially true. If the American people were up in arms about this, Bush would be packing his bags, just as he would be if the American people were up in arms about the WMD lies or the failure in Iraq or even Katrina. Any of those things would knock Bush out of there. Unfortunately, the American people have shown an incredible resilience in their ability to ignore every incompetent, lying moment of the Bush Administration. Many of us have been calling for his impeachment for years and nothing comes of it. His base of yahoos and pseudo-Christians will just not part with him and most of the rest of the country is too scared or blissfully ignorant to take a stand. Admittedly, I haven't been in the country for most of the past couple of years, but I don't get the impression that there is widespread sentiment among the American populace to take on Bush. Personally, I am hoping for a Mussolini-like ending for Bush, as he certainly reminds me of him, but it is hard to be optimistic.

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  38. Anonymous7:36 PM


    1. It wasn't perjury, because the lie wasn't material. The fact that President Clinton had consensual oral sex with Monica Lewinsky does not tend to prove or disprove the allegation of attempted unconsented sex (harrassment) with Paula Jones.


    Oh please. It was evidence that he made sexual advances on female subordinates. If his lie was so immaterial, why did he agree to surrender his Arkansas law license for 5 years? Why not persuade the disciplinary panel that he had not, after all, perjured himself?

    What Paula Jones, and many, many other women described as Bill Clinton's behavior toward them, is exactly the kind of behavior that gets feminist undies in a wad -- except when it is Bill Clinton. The hypocritical silence was revolting.

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  39. Anonymous7:58 PM

    Oh, and anon, if the term perjury bothers you so much, maybe it is that feminists care not a whit about contempt of court and lying under oath to obstruct justice in a sexual harassment case. At least not if it is Bill Clinton.

    and btw:

    Jones filed her lawsuit in 1994. Wright dismissed the lawsuit April 1, but Jones appealed the decision. The appeal was pending when she and Clinton reached a settlement November 13.

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  40. Anonymous8:59 PM

    What is this again about Clinton sexual wanderings? Who the hell cares?

    At the very least, Clinton did not ignore pre 9/11 warnings by going to clear brush instead of attending to our national security; he did not threaten to fire the Chief Actuarian if he revealed the true cost of the Medicare prescription bill to Congress before passage of the bill (if that is not against the law, I do not know what is); he did not lie and dupe the country into going to war with a country that was no threat to us instead of going after Bin Laden; he did not cause the death of 1,000+ people in the Gulf Coast by destroying FEMA; he did not allow torture, indefinite detentions without access to due process, renditions, and secret prisons; he did not take a surplus and turn it into a gigantic deficit (and going); he did not strangle the poor and the middle class by repeatedly cutting taxes for the very rich. He did not authorize spying on Americans without warrants; he did not violate the Constitution; he did not single-handedly manage to lose the ggodwill that the world showed us after 9/11... Etc... Etc... The list of abuses that this out-of-control brat and his malfeasant creature of a Vice President have, are, and will, commit is getting longer by the day.

    And that is the President who swore to "restore honor and integrity" to the White House?

    And some people are still throwing fits over Clinton's sordid little escapades?

    The Bush/Cheney dictatorship is a menace to the U.S. and to the world, and some morons are still huffing and puffing about Clinton's ridiculous affairs?

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  41. Glenn I also hope ur right but seeing is believing. Nothing I've seen yet disproves the Dau cycle not even a few more Conservative defections. I've been watching the cycle go through it's phases on the MSM shows and it's happening just like all the rest so far. Oh, and the breaking the law part is being viewed by Bu$h partisans as no big deal because well Bill did it didn't he and it was ok? So Monica comes back to haunt us again ironically!

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  42. Anonymous2:16 AM

    RE: Jones v. President Clinton.

    The issue was sexual harrasment, not whether President Clinton made advances to females. There is a difference. Your charge was that feminsts were hypocritical. I don't think feminists are against sex (extra marital or otherwise) per se, unlike say, President Clinton's detractors. There was no evidence of harrasment of poor ole PJ. The fact that poor ole PJ appealed doesn't change the fact the Judge found her case wanting and doesn't mean she would have won her appeal. We can only go with the record where the evidence was weighed and a verdict was rendered. All else is mere conjecture.

    And yes words and charges do matter. Perjury is incorrect in this case. I never addressed the issue of whether Clinton mislead a tribunal in violation the Arkansas Bar's Canon of Ethics. The Bar's disciplinary action was not based upon perjury. It was based upon the canon which requires attorneys not to decieve a tribunal, which clearly President Clinton did. Its a much laxer standard than perjury.

    Now Hypatia, tell me true, what's worse in a President, lying about private conduct or public matters. Lying about an extra marital blow job or fabricating evidence for a war... yeah I thought so, the blow job, of course.

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  43. Anonymous3:47 AM

    "If al Qaeda is calling you, we want to know why. I think that's reasonable."

    Well, I don't think that's reasonable at all. Are you sure you know everyone who calls you or sends you an email? I certainly don't. In fact, I'm sure my address, name, phone number and email address are traded on the open market along with everyone else's - otherwise I would not be getting so many solicitations through all of those channels.

    So no, I don't think its reasonable at all for you to monitor my calls just because someone you suspect has called me.

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  44. Anonymous6:45 AM

    The true believers who continue to support George Bush, right or wrong, are not conservatives, they are royalists. The same kind of thinkers as those who supported Charles I's claims that the king can do no wrong. Well, there's news for the royalists, and it happened when Parliament made plain no one was above the law by separating Charles's head from his body.

    The Supreme Court of the United States did the same thing in Ex Parte Milligan, an 1866 case centering on the limits of presidential power. Coming as it did upon the heels of the greatest crisis America ever faced - the Civil War - the Court made clear that: "They cannot justify on the mandate of the President; because he is controlled by law, and has his appropriate sphere of duty, which is to execute, not to make, the laws. . ."

    The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 states plainly that "no person" shall wiretap without a warrant. The President has commissioned numerous felonies - the very high crimes and misdemeanors of which the Constitution speaks. If the President continues to willfully break the law of the land, the remedy is impeachment.

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  45. Anonymous3:03 PM

    BobDevo,

    I encourage you to continue to speak of impeachment. You and others like you need to make sure that every democratic candidate for public office speaks openly of the need to impeach Bush just as soon as they get elected.

    BTW, FISA doesn't say if you wiretap without a warrant its a crime. Where did you get this crazy idea?

    But no matter I strongly urge you and others to make sure you all keep talking about impeaching Bush for protecting us.

    Its very important. Also, at the same time be sure to mention how breaking the law for good intentions is OK with you (i.e. the NSA leakers are whistleblowing patriots breaking the law for good intentions), and then be sure to tell everyone how President Bush's good intentions in protecting us from being killed don't matter one wit to you that good intentions is not an execuse for breaking any law in your mind, but then tell us again about the NSA leakers... Hey wait a minute?

    Says the "Dog"

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  46. Anonymous10:55 PM

    Now Hypatia, tell me true, what's worse in a President, lying about private conduct or public matters. Lying about an extra marital blow job or fabricating evidence for a war... yeah I thought so, the blow job, of course.

    As it happens -- and as you would know if you read some other threads here-- I think what George Bush is doing in the NSA warrantless surveillance matter is infinitely worse than Clinton's having lied under oath, and is an impeachable offense. (And yes, the judge did not refer Clinton to the U.S. Attorneys for a perjury charge; she did only that which was within her purview to do in terms of a contempt finding.)

    Bill Clinton hit on female subordinates, and left a long trail of women claiming very ill-treatment. The Clinton WH contrived an explicit strategy of depicting every woman who was ill-used by Bill as a deranged whore. That feminists sat still for this is preposterous, and utterly hypocritical. The right has no monopoly on hypocrisy.

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  47. Anonymous12:19 AM

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  48. Anonymous12:21 AM

    Hypatia,

    Clinton made a plea bargain with the prosecutor to avoid criminal charges on the perjury. He agreed to take his disbarment like a man (a novelty for him no doubt) and in exchange for that the prosecutor agreed not to pursue him criminally. So he plead out just like a lot of ordinary criminals.

    The plea bargain was done in between his frantic sales of pardons for cash exit strategy, and before he and the wife ran off with the Whitehouse furniture.

    Says "the Dog"

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  49. Thank you for the excellent post Glenn. I've been wondering where the principled conservative voices who supposedly believe in the separation of powers have been so it's nice to have all these links together.
    As for "the Dog" you clearly are a wanna-be sycophant of the most degenerate kind. Your whole argument seems to come down to that even if Bush broke the law the law was an unconstitutional intrusion into Presidential powers and that he was therefore entitled to break it. This seemingly begs the question because the very issue is Bush declaring himself immune to judicial and legislative oversight (therefore above the law; an idea completely contrary to the principles set out in the Constitution and in more detail in the Federalist Papers so beloved by conservatives) when if he thought the FISA rules were unconstitutional he could have, and should have, argued that case before the Supreme Court who might have then agreed with him and ruled it unconstitutional as Truman did during the Korean War pertaining to his wanting to nationalize the strike affected steel industries - that's precisely the role of the judicial branch. The scandal here is that Bush didn't do that, and in fact doesn't even argue that FISA is unconstitutional, but instead says that as "Commander-in-Chief" he can break laws that all other U.S. citizens must follow or be punished and can and should do it secretly.
    But The Dog doesn't worry about such trifling details in his worship and trust in the wise benificence of good King George. All bow down and worship his divinely appointed majesty! It's almost as if that whole revolution business was but some horrible, messy dream...

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  50. Anonymous11:19 AM

    Hey "Dog", I have yet to hear your apology for saying I was crazy to think the FISA made warrantless wiretapping a crime. Or an ackowledgement that you were wrong about the law. Why is that? Is it because you're afraid to admit a mistake - like our President - or because you're a freakin' moron - like our President? Inquiring minds need to know.

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