Thursday, April 27, 2006

Anatomy of the "thought" process of Bush defenders

(updated below with Glenn Reynolds & Hugh Hewitt book figures - updated again)

As much as anything else, Bush defenders are characterized by an increasingly absolutist refusal to recognize any facts which conflict with their political desires, and conversely, by a borderline-religious embrace of any assertions which bolster those desires. It's a world-view which conflates desire with reality, disregards all facts and evidence that conflict with the decreed beliefs, and faithfully embraces any assertions and fantasies, no matter how baseless and flagrantly false, provided that they bolster the mythology.

Thus, things are going really great in Iraq - just as we predicted they would. When we invaded, Saddam had WMD's and he was funding Al Qaeda. Oil revenues will pay for the whole thing, we will be welcomed as liberators, the whole war will be won quickly and easily. A large military presence is unnecessary because there is no insurgency. Bush is a popular and beloved President. All but a handful of radical fringe subversives in America support the war and believe terrorism is the overarching problem. Americans want to militarily confront Iran, want illegal warrantless eavesdropping, and are happy with how the country is being governed.

It never matters how much evidence arises demonstrating the falsity of these beliefs. They are not susceptible to challenge or reconsideration because they are the by-product of faith and desire and not a critical or rational assessment. They believe these things because they want to believe them, they have to believe them, because the whole world-view on which their identity and purpose has come to be based -- the brave, heroic President leading the great conservative nation in glorious, epic war-triumph over the evil Muslim enemy -- depends upon believing these myths. No facts can shake these beliefs because they aren't grounded in facts and aren't the by-product of rationality.

Yesterday, a relatively unimportant -- though particularly stark and instructive -- example arose which, to me, vividly illustrates how this fantasy-based "thought" process works. It began when Matt Drudge, probably the single least credible and most demonstrably dishonest source for information on the planet, wrote an undocumented, typically error-filled item claiming that the new book by Markos Moulitsas and Jerome Armstrong, Crashing the Gate (which Drudge referred to as "DAILY KOS"), was a huge flop because, according to Drudge, the book "has sold only 3,630 copies since its release last month." Drudge claims that his source was "Nielsen's Bookscan," whose "figures do (sic) include online sales from AMAZON.COM, and others." Since Nielsen's Bookscan does not include online sales, I assume Drudge meant to say "do not include online sales."

There are so many data holes and misleading omissions in this item that it is literally and wholly useless in determining whether the book is a success. I want to emphasize that what matters here is not whether the book really is a success (I have no idea if it is or isn't), but how the baseless Drudge assertion became gospel fact among Bush followers, a distorted and corrupt process which generally governs how they come to think about the world with regard to virtually every issue.

The uselessness of the Drudge item is self-evident. The most glaring and gaping hole is that the figures do not include online sales. Markos and Jerome are known almost exclusively for their work online. People who know them -- and who would therefore buy their book -- are almost certainly people who spend a lot of time online, and who therefore likely buy their books online. Given that their most noteworthy accomplishments are as bloggers, I would guess that the vast, vast bulk of people who buy Markos and Jerome's book order it online, not in brick-and-mortar bookstores. To try to analyze the success of their book by excluding online sales is blatantly and staggeringly dumb. It would be like trying to determine the success of the next Ann Coulter book by only looking at sales in Berkeley and Madison, Wisconsin.

Beyond that towering omission, one would need to know an array of facts that the Drudge item ignores in order to even make an educated guess about whether the book is a success. How many books were purchased during the lengthy pre-ordering process, when Kos readers were encouraged to order? What is the budget for the book, and how many units were expected to be purchased by now? And how does it compare to other comparable political books -- such as those recently published by Hugh Hewitt and Glenn Reynolds? Drudge (as well as Hewitt and Reynolds) are, revealingly, deafeningly silent about those comparisons.

In short, based upon the very partial slice of data Drudge provided (assuming it's even accurate), there is simply no way to know -- or even rationally speculate about -- whether the book is doing well or not. The item does not provide any rational person with the ability to make that assessment. And, as Markos pointed out, there is plenty of data Drudge left out which suggests the opposite conclusion.

Despite all of that, Drudge's baseless and deceitful proclamation -- that Crashing the Gate is a flop -- was immediately and mindlessly ingested as unchallengable fact by those whose mental processes are centrally guided by fantasy and desire, and it will forever remain as unshakable, conventional wisdom among them that the book failed, no matter how many facts in the future undermine their faith that it's true. Believing this provides emotional satisfaction for them, confirms the myths to which they desperately cling (Bush is popular, liberals are hated), and they therefore adopt it is a belief even though it does not correspond to reality. That really is a snapshot of what one, without hyperbole, could describe as the psychological imbalance that has driven the policies and actions of our government for several years.

The Drudge claim spread like wildfire among Bush followers yesteday. The delusional anchor was Roger L. Simon, who dribbled out some observations about what he called the "pathetic sales figures" for CTG, linking only to Drudge's inane item. Simon also asserted, literally without a single citation to anything, that the book by Glenn Reynolds -- whom Simon reverently describes as having "remarkable respect in the blogosphere for his integrity and intelligence" -- "is selling much better." He says this even though the only publicly available data that relates to that comparative assessment -- the Amazon rankings -- shows that CTG is at #33 (#24 yesterday), while Reynolds' book is at #1,006 (#1,157 yesterday). What rational person could possibly claim that Reynolds' book "is selling much better" than CTG?

These twin items by Drudge and Simon -- equally baseless, fact-free and misleading on their face -- were mindlessly recited as fact by countless Bush followers all day yesterday. The always fact-free Powerline John dutifully recited the claim that CTG "has sold an astonishingly low 3,630 copies," and even repeats Simon's fantasy-driven fiction "that Glenn Reynolds' book is selling well." Right Wing News drools: "it's really nice to see Kos's book nosedive into the pavement." The Bush zombie at BlogsFor Bush echoes the script: "I've stopped laughing long enough" to note that "there is no mention of the pathetic book sales of Kos's book on the site's front page." And PunditGuy, after celebrating the "failure" of CTG, says this:

Kos claims that Drudge’s numbers aren’t on the up and up. What-ev-eh.

Doesn't that pretty much capture the whole sickness? "There are facts that suggest that what I am saying is not actually true. What is my response do that? 'What-ev-eh.'" As in: "Some people claim there are facts that show that things in Iraq are not going really great. Something about civil war, sectarian hatred, anarchy, widespread violence, a total lack of security. What-ev-eh."

Don't they have somewhere lurking in their brain any critical faculties at all? For the sake of one's own integrity and reputation if nothing else, who would read an undocumented assertion on Drudge -- no matter how much of an emotional need they feel for it to be true -- and then run around reflexively reciting it as truth, writing whole posts celebrating it and analyzing it, without bothering to spend a second of time or a molecule of mental energy trying to figure out if it's really true?

This intellectually corrupt syndrome goes back a long way and has been festering for a long time. Nuggets of deceitful, fact-free fantasy get planted in some cesspool like Drudge and then mindless followers who want to believe it start repeating it as fact, and then it gets ossified forever as conventional wisdom and can never be dislodged from their minds. That's how Al Gore came to "claim that he invented the Internet," how Howard Dean became a far left radical pacifist, how Jessica Lynch had a heroic shoot-out with Al Qaeda and was then rescued by gun-blazing Marines, how Moveon.org produced commercials saying that Bush was Hitler, how Saddam funded Al Qaeda and personally participated in the planning of 9/11. It's even how the lesbian, Hillary, killed Vince Foster in order to ensure that their affair (or whitewater crimes or drug-running landing strip) would be kept quiet and, to this day, it's how Bill Clinton was a wildly unpopular president.

Soon after 9/11, the Bush movement became driven by much more than a set of political beliefs. It provides its adherents with much more than just a vehicle for political activism. It gives them purpose and a feeling of strength and power that they otherwise lack. In that sense, it is not dissimilar to a religion, and it is therefore unsurprising -- but nontheless ugly and destructive -- that their beliefs and convictions are not grounded in facts and reality but in a resolute faith that cannot be shaken by facts. Every event is interpreted so as to bolster the faith, facts are disregarded which undermine the faith and fact-free assertions are embraced which confirm the faith.

The way in which it became an instantaneous certainty that CTG is a failure (and Glenn Reynolds's book is a grand success) -- a "fact" that will endure in those circles forever, literally -- reflects a process that repeats itself over and over, with a whole range of issues. That is the process that led us into Iraq and not only kept us there, but ensured that we remained immoveably wedded to policies which were so plainly producing nothing but horrendous failure. Being able to pick and choose what facts you want to believe based upon which ones feel good or vindicate your desires can be emotionally satisfying, but there is no more destructive and dangerous mental approach than this for determing how the world's sole superpower will be governed.

UPDATE: Like Drudge, Patrick at Making Light has access to the Bookscan sales data. Unlike Drudge, Patrick not only published the sales figures for Crashing the Gate but also for Glenn Reynolds' book Army of Davids:

As of this morning, for Reynolds’ An Army of Davids (February 2006), Bookscan reports 1716 retail sales and 2609 “discount” sales, for a total of 4325.

As of this morning, for Armstrong and Kos’s Crashing the Gate (March 2006), Bookscan reports 2598 retail sales and 1804 “discount” sales, for a total of 4402.

In other words, despite the fact that it’s been available for four fewer weeks, Kos and Armstrong’s book has now clocked Bookscan sales in excess of Reynolds’. Notably, several hundred more full-price sales. This is leaving aside the fact that Kos and Armstrong’s book is currently at #40 on Amazon, whereas Reynolds’ is at #801.

So not only is CTG outselling Reynolds' book -- by far -- on Amazon (as well as on B&N), it has also sold more copies according to Bookscan -- Drudge's chosen source -- even though Reynolds' book was released before CTG. Patrick clearly understands the publishing world and his whole post is worth reading.

All of the available evidence shows that CTG is selling better then Reynolds' book, and yet, in the mind of the Bush follower, Reynolds' book is a grand success while CTG is an embarrassing failure. What else can that be called other than delusional?

UPDATE II: According to a source I cannot reveal but whose credibility is sky-high with me, these are the Bookscan figures for Hugh Hewitt's Painting the Map Red:

1712 - retail
931 - discount
2643 - total

How come Roger Simon, Powerline and Drudge aren't talking about what grotesque flops the books are by Reynolds and Hewitt? At least according to the Bookscan data they were venerating yesterday, those books make Crashing the Gate look like The DaVinci Code.

UPDATE III: In this post, I identifed multiple reasons why no rational person could form a conclusion about the success of CTG based on the information provided by Drudge, one of which -- and only one of which -- was that the Bookscan data does not include online sales from Amazon. Thereafter, I listed the specific sales figures showing that contrary to the central point made by the likes of Roger Simon and Powerline yesterday, Crashing the Gate, by every available measure, is significantly out-selling Glenn Reynolds' book (not to mention Hugh Hewitt's book, which is lagging even further behind).

According to Pat at Brainster's Blog, who also left comments here to the same effect, the sales data from Bookscan does include Amazon sales, and Pat posted a chart sent by Bookscan. In the posts I linked to above, both Markos and Patrick at Making Light said Bookscan does not include Amazon sales, a point Patrick bolstered here. That the Bookscan data really does include all or most of the Amazon sales is something I highly doubt, and whether it does is not indicated by the chart or by Pat's claims about the statements from Bookscan.

Nonetheless, if Bookscan includes all or most of the online sales from Amazon - and that is far from proven - that would mean that that specific criticism of Drudge's statement was in error. All the others are accurate, and more importantly, the central claim made by Bush followers -- that CTG is a failure and that Reynolds' book is doing much better -- is demonstrably false. If Pat were really as interested in securing apologies for misleading statements, there would be several e-mails from Pat in the in-boxes of Roger Simon, Powerline John and Drudge -- all of whom made patently false statements yesterday -- demanding such apologies. Why is it that I know that there aren't any such emails?

177 comments:

  1. Anonymous11:36 AM

    Why don't they just drink their kool-aid and get it over with?

    The Jim Jones analogy with that crowd is truly appropriate.

    Glenn, thanks for putting together a coherent presentation of the mindset of these people. I have tried many times, but I just get to frustrated by the complete idiocy

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  2. This ties in nicely with your earlier post--if Donald Rumsfeld says the people in Gitmo are "very bad men" and "the worst of the worst," it's accepted on face.

    People seriously need to work on their critical thinking skills....

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  3. Anonymous11:41 AM

    Conservative movement books are so successful that the NY Times literally had to invent a special notation on their top book sales chart to denote bulk sales. Oddly, ONLY books by Coulter, etc. get the special symbol.

    Other popular political works (Friedman's 'The World is Flat', etc.) NEVER get this special notation.

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  4. Anonymous11:47 AM

    The Psychotic Patriot is a recent purchaser of your book, and a firm believer of the issues your post raised. Thank you for both.

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  5. Anonymous11:49 AM

    Anyone think this dulusional behavior will ultimately get picked up as a genuine illness by the AMA?

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  6. Anonymous11:49 AM

    Even more depressing is how this kind of fact-free sludge gets onto the "mainstream" media outlets; e.g. Tweety Matthews' assertion that "Except for some hard-left whack jobs, everybody pretty much likes Bush" at a time when his approval numbers were in the low 40's.

    Oy.

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  7. Anonymous11:51 AM

    It's been my theory that a large part of the American population suffered a severe and debilitating emotional trauma on 9/11. I don't mean they were just scraed, I mean they have been traumatized to the point of irrationality. Many mental health professionals I know, agree.

    In that kind of mental and emotional dire starits, it is normal and natural to find someone or something to be your "protector" and to find some "reason" for the vent ("we're good and they are bad").

    Of course, what ahppens over time is exactly what Glenn describes. Their world view is now tied to that and the cognitive dissonance created by contrary facts cannot be admitted or their world view breakdowns and theyhave to go back and confront the emotional horror of that event and deal with.

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  8. Anonymous11:54 AM

    Fear and hate are the motivating forces that get people to believe Drudge and his ilk. Just listen to Hannity...he feeds the neurosis.
    Liberals don't share these unrealistic fears or hate. The well off have held the belief that liberals want to destroy their cushy lifestyle... I cannot believe the number of people that have carried an intense hatred of everything Roosevelt...(except of course their social security benefit.) Welfare for the poor is considered to be taking from the rich and giving their money to the undeserving in the ghetto. There is a fear of liberals taking their money away from them. Any rational person knew Saddam was not a threat but Bush was able to convince a majority that Saddam was an imminent danger to us...I can't tell you how many people truly feared that Iraqi...We had had years of Saddam as evil and threat to western civilization. Again fear works well. Universal health insurance is feared because they won't be able to see their doctor or get immediate care (as if they already do now.) Change is something to fear... Liberals are to be feared...and anything we fear is of course to be hated. Religion, political parties, corporations, movies etc have all used fear to manipulate us...Many of my friends live in such fear that they don't even go into the city because it is so dangerous...Americans have isolated themselves in a cocoon and get their information from the media that exploits fear. The rising gas prices are sending a fear across the nation ..oh my god, a threat to my way of life...it has to be those liberals that are causing this danger...Drudge will have the answer.

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  9. Anonymous11:56 AM

    What recent phenomenon could cause the Powerlines and Roger Simons to wish to ignore Amazon sales and rankings? What oh what could it be, that would induce them to plug their ears and sing "LALALALALALALA, I can't hear" you about Amazon?

    There must be something, and if I only think long and hard enough, it will surely come to me.

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  10. Anonymous12:02 PM

    At some point, can't these people be brought to justice for their constant lying? Can't the authors of CTG file a slander suit against Drudge for calling the book a 'flop' when there is evidence that it's not? At what point can we get them in a court of law where truth should and could prevail and force them to admit they're self-serving liars?

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  11. Anonymous12:02 PM

    It never matters how much evidence arises demonstrating the falsity of these beliefs. They are not susceptible to challenge or reconsideration because they are the by-product of faith and desire and not a critical or rational assessment.
    The Viscount Lacarte heads his site with 3 quotes, including this pertinent gem from Jonathan Swift:
    "It is impossible to reason someone out of something that he did not reason himself into in the first place."

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  12. Anonymous12:03 PM

    Glenn, I agree and have thought these things for a long time. The next step is to go further....where does this emotional dysfunctional mind set come from? I believe that our general American culture makes this kind of person possible. We as a people are in denial about a lot of things and waking up will be painful-but wake up we must. We have an entitlement view of ourselves just...... "Because." i.e. what ev-eh. Because we are AMERICANS. We are a greedy, hedonisitic, immoral people. Our life style depends on denial and insensitivity ( to say the least) to others. Capitalism has not been fully seen for the harm it does and has been idealized to mean things it does not. Advertising feeds denial and greed weakening people so that they can be used. Appearance is reality in this country and this is sick and tragic.
    Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you look at it, the deeper principles of life always kick in. True reality, however one chooses to label it, does trump denial and our puny attempts at personal power. It's simply bigger than any one view point. Denial doesn't work in other words.....because the true underlying reality has to assert itself in situations sooner or later. We will have to face the rest of the world because it is shrinking. If we do so by trying to kick the shit out of everyone, we will reap the results. As Abe Lincoln said when asked what his religion was: " I feel good when I do good, and bad when I do bad. That is my religion." God help America.

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  13. You're spot-on with your assessment that the right-wing world view is entirely dependent on these memes being true.

    To make matters worse, it's a whole interconnected web of beliefs, every single one of which has got to be true. Start doubting or questioning any individual bit, and the whole structure starts to fall apart.

    What I find especially depressing is that this approach essentially shuts down any sort of meaningful discussion.

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  14. Anonymous12:08 PM

    vermontracoon writes: Didn't that there screed by that there Glenn Greenwald fella shoot to the number 1 spot like shit through a goose yesterday?

    Why, I believe so. Now that you mention it, I think there might be a connection to that fact, and a sudden blindness -- in certain quarters of the blogosphere -- to Amazon rankings and sales. Yes, I truly think you might be on to something, vermontracoon! Well done!

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  15. Anonymous12:09 PM

    The lack of critical thinking and the intellectual laziness and close-mindedness of the conservative pundit class and their wannabes, and the well-funded, deliberative efforts to put their memes into the MSM (all easily proven facts, as opposed to paranoid fantasies), not only demeans discourse, but sets up the conditions under which other countries and industries are going to continue to clean our clocks. It was critical thinking and a cold analysis of facts that not only won the American Revolution and WWII, but put American footprints on the moon, eradicated polio and smallpox, and put landers on Mars, Venus, the Moon, etc. The lack of critical thinking has brought us the destruction of the City of New Orleans, the debacles of Iraq and North Korea, and will soon fatally wound us as we do the unthinkable towards Iran in an effort to prevent the U.S. Congress from being taken over by the Democrat Party. This same lack will eventually not only bankrupt us morally, but also financially as we sell billions in bonds to foreign countries every week in order to fund the increase in the national debt.

    God help us all. Apparently, no one else will.

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  16. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  17. Anonymous12:15 PM

    Thinking gives them headaches. So they don't.
    I also reminds me of remarks by a character in one of Josephine Tey's novels (IIRC, The Daughter of Time), who says that criminals are frequently people who can reason from A to B and from C to D, but they'll put two contradictory things side by side and cheerfully contemplate them. (Implied but not said, IIRC: without noticing the contradiction at all!)

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  18. Anonymous12:15 PM

    Thank You Glenn!

    I saw a bumper sticker that projected this exact delusion. It said: Conservatives Think, Liberals Feel.

    Do you think critical thinking went into the creation of that sticker? Or was it emotion?

    I read a great article sometime back that described the collective psychosis that seems to be gripping a substantial portion of our population.

    I know it's kind of out there, but very plausible.

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  19. >They believe these things because they want to believe them, they have to believe them, because the whole world-view on which their identity and purpose has come to be based<

    I've often thought that many people in this country continue to believe falsehoods because of the feelings of guilt that would result if they opened their eyes.

    If you start with the assumption that everything Americans do is automatically moral because we're Americans then it becomes much easier to beleive that invading a country halfway across the planet and killing tens of thousands of their citizens and imprisoning hundreds of others and subjecting them to humiliation and torture is all OK.

    The closer they get to the realization that perhaps we're the evil ones in this scenario, the louder they have to shout to make that thought go away.

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  20. Anonymous12:22 PM

    Glenn, this is a pretty good introduction to how this all relates to religion. One can easily imagine religions themselves "coming to life" the same way. As far as the workings of the "mind", it is all the same; and the only "cure" is scientifically-based education. There is no "quick" solution.

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  21. For those who didn't go to the Kos link, they have orders from distributors (Baker & Taylor, for instance) for 50,000 copies, and have gone through three printings.

    Kos estimates about 10,000 have sold through so far. Books are strange beasts in retail. They're actually consignment sales. The bookseller can return books that don't sell. So 50,000 ordered doesn't mean 50,000 sold.

    It's usually hard to figure these things out, because publishers don't like to release sales figures and frequently overstate print runs. But Kos gives a pretty clear rundown.

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  22. Didn't a similar thing happen with the urban legend that Clinton staffers sabotaged the office equipment in the West Wing?

    Ever since DAY ONE, this has been one of their M.O.s (even before day one if you consider The Brooks Brothers Riot, the smear that Al Gore invented the Internet, etc.).

    Now that most Americans have apparently been roused out of their hypnotic state, this tactic must be illuminated and connected with the radical right. It should be pointed out that not only are they incompetent, any illusion of competency is based almost entirely on deceit, outright lies, and obfuscation.

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  23. Anonymous12:32 PM

    shargash said...
    I've been giving a fair amount of thought lately to what loosely could be called "collectivism." In collectivism the individual subordinates himself to some sort of a collective. He derives his identify, his very self-image, from the values of the collective.


    Stop giving it so much thought. This is horeshit capitalis propaganda you are spouting and what you are describing here is cultism and cults. That's not collectivism. If it was, your once inexpensive health insurance at work, (now history thanks to Bushcult) was dangerous to your health.

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  24. Glenn, excellent post. Let me just say that you point up one issue that has never been broached in the MSM by this swarm of insectoid Bushites. While they chatter for the heads of journalists and reporters who write stories that reveal true corruption and true fraud and true threats to democracy, they never call for legal actions against those journalists of their persuasion who obviously lie and deceive and corrupt the public's need to know the facts.

    When will the day come when those reporters who lied about the war and shrilly conveyed lies and propaganda in the run up to the Iraq "war" are brought before some form of public exposure?

    My point is this: this Bushite swarm is willing to give gossip, innuemdo, and slander a free ride, but when it comes to information that unveils true dangers to democracy they are quick to call for judgment and damnation of the messengers.

    If lawyers are looking for a cause, I imagine they could do worse than working to pass laws that hold liars and cheats in the press to a higher standard of truth than is currently in place.

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  25. Anonymous12:35 PM

    shargash said...
    I've been giving a fair amount of thought lately to what loosely could be called "collectivism." In collectivism the individual subordinates himself to some sort of a collective. He derives his identify, his very self-image, from the values of the collective.


    Let's ban unions, too. Safer working conditions and a decent wage are dangerous to your health.

    See Cults, Ayn Rand... Bush etc.

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  26. suzanne: Glenn, I agree and have thought these things for a long time. The next step is to go further....where does this emotional dysfunctional mind set come from?

    You make so many good points! I think that if you or we spent some time on each one of these points that you write about we could go far indeed in understanding the mind-set that Glenn's posting flags.

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  27. Aaron in NM said...
    Thank You Glenn!

    I saw a bumper sticker that projected this exact delusion. It said: Conservatives Think, Liberals Feel.


    I've read and heard so many variations of that concept over the last several years and always marvel at the level of self-delusion necessary to fall behind that idea.

    I suppose it's built around the wierd idea that empathy and rational thought are mutually exclusive. Those with little to no empathy for others are just convince themselves that it stems from their deep commitment to logic.

    There is so little rational about our current "conservative" foreign and domestic policies. The long term consequences made don't seem to be a factor in calculating these policies and, as Glenn points out, there is no correction for mistakes.

    When cons DO employ logic it's almost with question inductive/ circular in nature and not a product of enlightened reasoning so much a part of the tradition of this country.

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  28. Bush defenders are loyal to party above country. They love their party first. Doesn't that sound like the Soviet style that they say they and Ronnie Rayguns defeated during the 80s???

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  29. Anonymous12:39 PM

    michael said:
    John Kerry was a coward! Al Gore says he invented the internet! Hillary murdered Vince Foster! Bill Clinton had OBL offered to him by Sudan and he passed on it!

    The sheer doublethink of Bush zombies hollering "support our troops!" day in and day out, and then going to Bush rallies while mockingly wearing bandaids with purple hearts on them was a thing to behold.

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  30. Anonymous12:41 PM

    In Re: Glenn's post, and some of the comments

    See Hofstadter, Richard he was the first to observe this strain of mental illness in the 50s and 60s...

    The Paranoid Style in American Politics

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  31. There are certainly forms of collectivism--nationalism, racism, etc.--that are extremely harmful. The solution isn't to narrow the interests you consider to one person--yourself--as hardcore libertarians and Objectivists do, but instead to broaden your perspective beyond your particular tribe, race, nation, or party. That can be extremely difficult--and painful--because there are so many conflicting interests and so much pain in the world, but it's the only way to avoid this kind of cultism.

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  32. Anonymous12:49 PM

    Let's not forget:

    Valerie Plame was NOT an undercover agent.

    Joe Wilson was sent on his fact-finding tour out of a mix of nepotism and liberal wichkedness.

    Tom Delay is just the target of a vicious smear campaign.

    Terri Schiavo was actually beaten by her husband. He put he rinto a coma. And she was responsive and all but tap-dancing in her hospital bed.

    You can go on indefinitely.

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  33. Anonymous12:52 PM

    "A recent study by Drew Western at Emory University showed how this looks from inside the brain, and the results highlight in a spectacular fashion how difficult it is to engage in rational discourse."

    I don't have a link, but if you google it you can find stuff on your own. Advances in technology, such as MRI and other means of brain function scanning in real time have recently identified what is actually happening in our brains during this highly charged political process. This study was done during the run up to the 2004 election. Aaron in NM's link to the article on collective psychosis is an interesting read but I'd go with the neuro-psyche. It's hard science. That stuff... well... make up your own brains.

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  34. Anonymous12:56 PM

    bobbob said...
    Bush defenders are loyal to party above country.


    I disagree. If they were it would be a function of a collective. They are loyal to a leader. Bush. That's why it is more like a cult. You do not lose your identity when you join a union or a political party. If you do, go see a shrink. you need help.

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  35. Anonymous12:58 PM

    "A recent study by Drew Western at Emory University showed how this looks from inside the brain, and the results highlight in a spectacular fashion how difficult it is to engage in rational discourse."


    My bad. I forgot to include the key phrase. Google "partisan brain".

    minus the ""

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  36. Anonymous1:04 PM

    yankeependragon said...
    Anyone think this dulusional behavior will ultimately get picked up as a genuine illness by the AMA?

    11:49 AM


    The DSM.

    Only when your insurance company will pay for the treatment.

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  37. Anonymous1:12 PM

    My question is: can a delusional person be shown, told, taught they are delusional? If they are delusional are they even capable of seeing truth or reality?

    Seriously asking. Any psychologists in the house?

    1:01 PM


    In lay terms... as the study done at Drew found... it's not so much a matter of a delusional state, as in psychosis. It's that the areas of the brain that are active during reasoning and critical analysis shut down and stop functioning when they hear things that do not fit their partisan view. It's like denial, which has a very important evolutionary function in our brains. It is a necessary self-defense mechanism. Things you cannot accept, like horrible traumatic events or sights, just do not exist, you did not experience them or see them. You deny them until such time as your brain and psyche can deal and process them.

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  38. Anonymous1:14 PM

    This very phenomenon was discussed by Orwell long ago.
    From 1984, natch:

    A Party member is expected to have no private emotions and no respites from enthusiasm. He is supposed to live in a continuous frenzy of hatred for foreign enemies and internal traitors, triumph over victories, and self-abasement before the power and wisdom of the Party. The discontents produced by his bare, unsatisfying life are deliberately turned outward and dissipated by such devices as the Two Minutes Hate, and the speculations which might possibly induce a skeptical or rebellious attitude are killed in advance by his early acquired inner discipline. The first and simplest stage in the discipline, which can be taught even to young children, is called, in Newspeak, crimestop. Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest of arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity. But stupidity is not enough. On the contrary, orthodoxy in the full sense demands control over one's own mental processes as complete as that of a contortionist over his body. Oceanic society rests ultimately on the belief that Big Brother is omnipotent and that the Party is infallible. But since in reality Big Brother is not omnipotent and the Party is not infallible, there is need for an unwearying, moment-to-moment flexibility in the treatment of facts.


    'trane

    posted on ToddandinCharge.blogspot.com (not my blog) many moons ago.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Anonymous1:19 PM

    "As much as anything else, Bush defenders are characterized by an increasingly absolutist refusal to recognize any facts which conflict with their political desires, and conversely, by a borderline-religious embrace of any assertions which bolster those desires"


    really, ggr

    nothing has changed,

    not even in intensity.

    right-wing political discourse,

    at least in its popular, public version,

    asserts whatever is necessary to acquire or retain power and to remain a member in good standing of the gang.

    i do not see any difference between right-wing discourse now and right-wing discourse in

    2004

    or

    2000

    or

    1986

    or

    1982.


    the right-wing speaker creates some internal reality that satisfies an emotional need(s)

    and then proceeds to acquire or manufacture anecdotes and "facts"

    to support that emotional need.


    it could be to project anger to some "other", as you were speculating the other day about the right-wing and "hate".

    or it could be to protect the internal image of a much admired "hero" like as george bush.

    or it could be to protect oneself against doubt about cherished, deeply satisfying views of human nature e.g., poor people are poor for a reason, blacks are shiftless, etc .

    whatever the specific subject of right-wing discourse,

    the intent of that discourse seems to be to make everything come out just right,

    all equations have only one solution

    there are no negative square roots

    there are no doubts

    there are no ambiguities

    all columns and rows always sum properly to one perfect total.

    in right-wing discourse

    there are no on-the-one-hand-on the other-hand admissions.

    part of this probably has to do with a set of mental and emotional inclinations.

    and a lot of it has to do with a characteristic we all share as humans -- the need and the desire to follow others,

    even if it is round and round, nose-to-tail

    in a circle,

    as it so often is in right-wing discourse.

    another characteristic of right-wing discourse seems to arise from a sense of one-downess.

    right-wing speakers sometimes seem to be saying "i have a RIGHT to use this phrase or make this criticism because "the other side" does it too.

    the feeling seems to be that reality-based facts are not relevant to using critical or explanatory rhetoric,

    there is an inherent right to the words of public political discourse.

    we saw this, for example, in the right-wing caw- cawing about muslims and "racism" a few weeks ago.


    but another very important reason for the obtuseness and obliviousness of right-wing public discourse is that there are strong sanctions imposed on those who appear, even in a small way and even once, to be apostate.

    there is a real penalty to not going along with the gang, verbally.

    the right-wing demands continuous demonstrations of loyalty.

    and it demands them all the time.

    any ambiguity a commenter might express may immediately be taken as an example of defecting to the other side.

    and exclusion, shunning, would be the result.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Anonymous1:22 PM

    Nielsen tracks a selected group, not a random sample. People who look at Neilsen for anything are delusional. This "selected group" that Neilsen tracks are the same couch monkeys who watch daytime soaps and prime-time sitcoms. If you sell laundry detergent and Iraq is beautiful and Freedumb is on the march, you are selling it to the Neilsen couch monkeys.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Anonymous1:24 PM

    sohei said...
    Since apparently the Nielson charts accurately refelct the perceptions and opinion of the entire American public


    In my previous post I take issue with your initial assumption...

    ReplyDelete
  42. Anonymous1:25 PM

    A possible explanation: The belief system and worldview of these individuals, starting on the 50’s with the civil rights movement have been under intense attack (justified IMHO), as backward, irrational, based on lies, etc., that includes not only their political views (i.e. xenophobia, bigotry, misogynist), but also their religious faith (their leaders very narrow, outdated and often erroneous Taliban like interpretation of their very own version of the Bible). GWB and his conservative “revolution” gave them expression and most important validation of their belief, a sense that they were right all along. It is not a surprise that their support to this administration is unwavering, to admit that GW’s policies failed will be tantamount to heresy, a shock to their core belief and something too revolting to deal with.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous1:30 PM

    Just read this by Hofstadter

    The Paranoid Style in American Politics

    Because you will see this phenomenon it's proper context and historical perspective.

    ReplyDelete
  44. ender: If they are delusional are they even capable of seeing truth or reality?

    Seriously asking. Any psychologists in the house?


    That is indeed the question. In classical rhetoric, you assume that people are, at heart, disposed by human nature to discerning "the truth," most notably when presnted with an inductive argument that is credible.

    One thing that the classisists assumed, however, is that the ones listening to the argument share certain educational and cultural assumptions.

    With the advent of "the public"--during the Enlightenment, the appeal to reason became a supposedly universal appeal. Yet, as some commentators have rightly noted, those who hear the appeal are in a position to do something once they "see" the truth of the reasoned argument.

    Some current theorists base their arguments on the Enlightenment notion of the public. In this regard, what stops people from coming to the rational, democratic solution is the corruption of the means of communication by diverse personal and socio-economic factors--capitalism in particular. The effort, therefore, is to clear away those obstructions to democratic and clear debate.

    Others who oppose this view ask a very simple question. How can we ever hope to achieve this "perfect" communication ideal? That is, the model assumes that for the democratic situation to occur, these changes must have already come about. People must change--socially and subjectively--before that ideal itself can be realized. Yet, the socio-economic and subjective factors at work in modern society may be so great that the perfect communication situation will never happen. It's always an ideal-in-waiting, so to speak.

    One solution might be to get rid of the rationalistic model presupposed by the ideal communication model althogether. This solution jettisons any notion of "truth" and insists instead on smaller truths. In the best interpretation of this approach, the use of irony and localized, acerbic tricksterism works in ana anarchic way to undermine the prevailing false ethos. This practice opens up the possibility for alternative and creative solutions to injustice and non-democratic structures.

    The gist of the preceding is that "the solution" to your question is not simply either psychological or social. It's a combination of both terms. Any solution must, it seems, work at subjective and social levels to bring about a situation in which anything approaching a just and democratic society can exist.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Anonymous1:38 PM

    i have already stated before that i had my eyes opened with schiavo incident only because of my own health so i took it personally.then when i turned off foxnews and started reading online other news sites i was amazed at how much i had not seen.
    not making an excuse for them but as Christians sometimes we get too targeted on one issue and none of the others seem to matter as much.
    say like "abortion"?
    one thing that Christians do forget and this is the biggest danger with the wiretapping and removing of rights,another type of president could get eleted and what if Christian faith was targeted the way that others are targeted now.
    and dont tell me it couldnt,it has before and could do so again.other faiths have been targeted,other nationalities also.
    history repeats.
    and sad as it is we dont seem to learn.
    Greg i am very greatful for your blog and try to read it everyday.when others were helping you it was also a pleasure to read and understand what is happening and directions of ways for us to become involved in little ways.
    i cant march but i can sure use the telephone and email.
    br3n

    ReplyDelete
  46. Anonymous1:46 PM

    I came to the same conclusion in the 2004 election when a co-worker of mine arrived at work and said he was only going to watch Fox News from now on because he had detected a 'liberal bias' on NBC.

    The message was very clear, he was not interested in any information that contradicted what he wanted to be true.

    Your analysis is good. bush's statements, Rumsfeld's, Cheney, GM's etc. are not attempts to inform or explain, they are aimed at those who want to believe that everthing is all right, no action is necessary. These excuses and misbeliefs are vigorously defended as you correctly point out because, because a house of cards worldview is built upon them.

    My question is, What do you do about it? It is not enough to understand the problem, how do you intervene.

    The basic problem is that these people actively push away any information that contradicts what they want to believe.

    Reality will eventually assert itself. Even then some manage to concoct grand conspiracy theories. But waiting for reality to correct perceptions could carry dire consequences which we all share.

    Confrontation seems to harden their beliefs.

    You must consider that all of these people while misinformed are not necessarily bad people. Take my coworker for instance, He is a good person, he works hard to support his family, supports his country(retired navy), reasonably intelligent and terribly misinformed.

    I don't just want to know that others see the same thing, I want to know what to do about it. Anyone, perhaps a mental health professional?

    ReplyDelete
  47. I couldn't find CTG at my local Barnes & Noble. It made me want to never buy a thing from them again.

    OK -- I'm gonna buy it today -- from AMAZON.

    Somebody inform Drudge of the existence of the internet beyond his nanonarrow scope of it.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Barnes & Noble sales RANKING (not # of books sold) as of this morning: CTG is at 3,741. Worse Than Watergate by John Dean is at 9,618 (Published 2004) and Glenn Reynolds Army of Davids is at 13,246. You cannot reason or fight these people with facts. To them, the lie is the lifeblood.

    ReplyDelete
  49. anon: I don't just want to know that others see the same thing, I want to know what to do about it.

    Slavoj Zizek describes the present ideological situation we face in the west. Describing the need to have an enemy in psychological (Lacanian> and political terms, Zizek shows how the modern westerner is both a "victim" of manipluation by the ones in power, as well as the willing participant in this manipulation.

    According to Zizek: When the Enemy serves as the 'quilting point' (the Lacanian point de capiton) of our ideological space, it is in order to unify the multitude of our actual political opponents. Thus Stalinism in the 1930s constructed the agency of Imperialist Monopoly Capital to prove that Fascists and Social Democrats ('Social Fascists') are 'twin brothers', the 'left and right hand of monopoly capital'. Thus Nazism constructed the 'plutocratic-Bolshevik plot' as the common agent threatening the welfare of the German nation. Capitonnage is the operation by means of which we identify/construct a sole agency that 'pulls the strings' behind a multitude of opponents. Exactly the same holds for today's 'war on terror', in which the figure of the terrorist Enemy is also a condensation of two opposed figures, the reactionary 'fundamentalist' and the Leftist resistant. The title of Bruce Barcott's article in the New York Times Magazine on 7 April, 'From Tree-Hugger to Terrorist', says it all: the real danger isn't from the Rightist fundamentalists who were responsible for the Oklahoma bombing and, in all probability, for the anthrax scare, but the Greens, who have never killed anyone. The ominous feature underlying all these phenomena is the metaphoric universalisation of the signifier 'terror'. The message of the latest American TV campaign against drugs is: 'When you buy drugs, you provide money for the terrorists!' 'Terror' is thus elevated to become the hidden point of equivalence between all social evils. How, then, are we to break out of this predicament?

    What's the solution? For Zizek, there's a miracle required here. Describing how 100s of Israeli soldiers refused to continue to persecute Palestinians, Zizek says this purely ethical act is the only type of miracle that will be our salvation.

    Typically, the atheistic Zizek calls upon the Christian Paul to support his view. What is required to solve our problems, he asserts, is an ethical act that transcends the social, economic and personal obstacles that seem to preclude just acts.

    It is--again according to the atheist Zizek--a pure and existentially true enactment of the Christian commandment, "love your neighbor as yourself."

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anonymous2:05 PM

    Also consider the assumption that 'consumers', 'stockholders', and 'taxpayers' are mutually exclusive groups. (How many times have you heard 'consumer' and 'taxpayer' used with the implication that they are different persons? How many adults do you know that don't belong to at least two of those groups?)

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous2:08 PM

    sohei said...
    In my previous post I take issue with your initial assumption...

    I was being snarky. I realize that those charts mean nothing, I'm just wondering what the wingnuts make of them, considering how much weight they have given them in bashing CTG.

    1:41 PM


    My damn snark detector needs to be calibrated. Next it will be the BS detector. Tomorrow I will be a member of Bushcult

    ReplyDelete
  52. It is interesting to note that CTG was reviewed by the NY Review of Books. This is an accolade that ranks high in the literary world.

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18910

    I haven't seen anything by Reynolds in there.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous2:19 PM

    Paul Rosenberg

    Conservatives have to think... amazingly convoluted, perverse, and downright false things, in order to keep from being fooled by reality.

    "Smart people believe wierd things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for nonsmart reasons.
    Michael Shermer, Scientific American: Smart People Believe Weird Things Sept. 2002"

    Libertarian capitalism... is a curious ideology in many ways... On the one hand, the sanctity of private property and private contracts is held to be a matter of inalienable natural right, guaranteed by the fundamental facts of morality, if not a basic part of Objective Reality; capitalism is the Right Thing to Do. On the other hand, much effort is devoted to arguing that unfettered laissez-faire capitalism is also the economic system which will produce the greatest benefit for the greatest number, indeed for all, if only people would just see it. Natural right therefore coincides exactly with personal interest. A clearer example of wishful thinking could hardly be asked for.
    Cosma Shalizi, Liberty! What Fallacies Are Committed in Thy Name!





    Libertarian capitalism... is a curious ideology in many ways... On the one hand, the sanctity of private property and private contracts is held to be a matter of inalienable natural right, guaranteed by the fundamental facts of morality, if not a basic part of Objective Reality; capitalism is the Right Thing to Do. On the other hand, much effort is devoted to arguing that unfettered laissez-faire capitalism is also the economic system which will produce the greatest benefit for the greatest number, indeed for all, if only people would just see it. Natural right therefore coincides exactly with personal interest. A clearer example of wishful thinking could hardly be asked for.
    Cosma Shalizi, Liberty! What Fallacies Are Committed in Thy Name!

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous2:21 PM

    Okay, the consensus seems to be Glenn is spot-on about the irrationality and and impenetrability of the Administration's defenders. We've seen much the same with our resident contrarians here as well.

    So, the question next becomes twofold:

    First: anyone think is there some 'critical mass' of counter-evidence that stands some chance of getting these defenders to actually *think* about their support more objectively than they currently do (I'm not naive enough to hope they'd reconsider their positions)?

    Second: presuming these same defenders remain steady in their convictions for the foreseeable future, anyone care to postulate how much influence they will exert in the coming 48 months?

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous2:24 PM

    Given that the right media machine doesn't react to facts, or will run with anything as a certainty, what is the point of maintaining civil discourse.

    The social contract is being broken by the ring leaders on the other side of the fence. Media Matters and other document pages and pages of this everyday.

    Also by reacting to this issue without the full requisiste numbers ie, what did Insty sell in the three weeks, waht was his pre-orrder. What are Kos total sales so fat, what was his preorder, there is no basis for any rational discussion.

    What was Insties none internet media campaign, what was Koses? How much purchasing comes from within their respective online community and how much outside of it. And then finally Why? Can we say that one pundits message is resonating wider than another? Can we say that one groups core followers are more likely to purchase books.

    None of the above is really being addressed by anyone. Without these facts and analysis the right makes the left join it in Howard Stern like vanity pissing matches, which helps the right devalue the left.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Drudge's goal is to deny CTG legs to run on. His technique is to play into the psyche that the consumer doesn't want to be associated with a loser - so don't read CTG because you'll come out a loser, instead read the winner and be a winner. Herd mentality more important than sense of individual accomplishment.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Anonymous2:33 PM

    We've seen much the same with our resident contrarians here as well.

    Excellent point. We have some here who revere and defend Ayn Rand like Bush followers revere and defend Bush. EWO asked me to read a piece by Rand, on argument for moral absolutism. I refused, and it's a piece I have not read. He's a moral absolutist, I'm not. The right may call me a moral relativist, I have no problem with that. I prefer situational ethicist. Both EWO and I are highly partisan and refuse to change. I am aware of this. The differnce I think is that I have arrived at my more flexible position by life experience and observation of reality and facts. His is largely a rigid theoretical construct that does not reflect the real world. Just my humble opinion. I can agree to disagree with him. I will never make him agree with me, nor could he get me to agree with him.

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  58. Anonymous2:38 PM

    Thanks for the post Glenn. I agree with what others have said above, that certain people have too much of their own identities wrapped up in the mythology of the right. To question these beliefs would be akin to questioning their very identity.

    I also believe that their are professional propagandists, who know very well that they are being dishonest. WHy do these people do this?

    ReplyDelete
  59. Anonymous2:41 PM

    Don said...
    I encourage everybody to read the article "collective psychosis" that "aaron in nm" referenced above in his posting.


    My problem with this, (not the article, I have other problems with that, but it's somewhat enlightening) is this assumption, that Bush actually is a sincerely born-again evangelist Christian.


    position of power Bush and the religious right find themselves in, they can literally dream up and create the very apocalypse that they are imagining is prophesized, like a self-fulfilling prophecy. In a perversely self-reinforcing feedback-loop, the more death and destruction happens, the more this confirms to them the truth that their deluded end-time scenario is actually happening as prophesized.

    Any person truly in the grip of ecstatic religious fervor, and we have them, would never shut up about it. Bush is as much of a believer as some, not all, condemned death row inmates who cynically find God in an opportunistic effort to eke out a commutation of their death sentence from the governor, or the other opportunists who take on the mantle of the holy man, so as to pick the pockets of the deluded rich and poor alike.

    ReplyDelete
  60. The kind of dementia to which Glenn refers is self-feeding, leading to ever more tortured and contorted interpretations of facts presenting themselves to the demented person. In the eyes of the demented, Bush is still popular. Thus Bush's plunging popularity can only be explained by reference to "media conspiracies". Bush's policies are wise and judicious. Thus revelations by bureaucrats that Bush's policies are in fact abject failures must interpreted as backstabbing by embedded partisans in the government.

    What's sad and scary is that as this dementia deepens, feeding on itself, the confusion attendant with the ever increasing challenge of integrating conflicting data with hardened paranoia grows into anxiety and, as we've seen of late, increasing hostility and combativeness.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Anonymous2:45 PM

    How odd that Roger L. Simon concludes Reynolds is selling better than Kos, and that he refuses to factor in Amazon sales, where Reynolds is quite low. Hmmmm.

    This is what Roger L. Simon posted about Glenn Reynolds’ book on 03/06/06:

    A signed copy of An Army of Davids. [Why is the author smiling?-ed. He's up to #322 on Amazon... click here and raise it.]
    UPDATE: If the popularity of Glenn's book continues to swell, he may need this.


    This is what he posted (my emphasis) on 11/12/05:

    I caught Mary Mapes on the Neal Cavuto Show last night and this is one angry woman. She was out there flogging her new book - Truth and Duty: the Press, the President and the Privilege of Power - which I noticed is at #536 on Amazon, although that's already down from #475 yesterday. It's hard to believe anybody is actually buying this thing, unless it's as a practical joke for friends, but evidently they are.

    And on 1/19/05 he confessed to being an “online shopaholic,” asked “who goes to the stores anymore?” and then declared this:

    That's me I'm talking about, unfortunately. I will take the occasion of Amazon's Tenth Anniversary (via Glenn, but I think I would have found out about it within the next five minutes anyway) to admit publicly for the first time that "My name is Roger Simon and I am an online shopaholic!"

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  62. Glenn,

    Any idea why Kos doesn't just cut to the chase and say "We've sold X" books? He claims 10,000 copies plus Amazon; doesn't Amazon make clear to authors and publishers what they've sold?

    Pat from Brainster's Blog

    ReplyDelete
  63. yankee: the consensus seems to be Glenn is spot-on about the irrationality and and impenetrability of the Administration's defenders.

    I think one of the problems is taking this idea seriously. What I find in many of the "debates" here is the fact that both sides are equally unfair to each other in their understanding and appreciation for their interlocutor's position.

    Now, you can go back to classical rhetroic to find the idea that a good debated is someone who can argue the other side's position just as well if not better than him/her. Of course, it's exactly this idea od being able to argue both sides of an issue that's given rhetoric and lawyers a bad name in popular usage.

    Yet the point, I think is a valid one. But instead of doing it simply froma desire to beat your opponent, the effort to understand the other side should be motivated by the desire to find what's really motivating them. Based on this, it is perhaps possible to find revelational issues that can serve as the basis for further discussion. A basis that forms a bond of trust that I'm not just jettisoning his/her actual concern for the truth just as much as I have.

    Of course, with all these trolls acting maliciously and dishonestly, it's hard to do this. It's like expecting a dog to stop barking when its back's up.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous2:59 PM

    I don't know if anyone mentioned this (no time to read all the comments), but this reminded me oa a recent study at Emory, which tested self-identified political partisans by doing brain scans while showing them news items that reflected badly on their side.

    This caused a lot of activity in the emotional part of the brain. Subjects were then provided with lame excuses that would make it okay (much as Glenn outlined), and they immediately adopted them and had a burst of activity in their reward centers.

    The discomfort caused by the negative info was completely relieved, and the got a burst of positive reinforcement. Rather than the reasoning part of the brain being triggered, it was all emotional.

    So it's no wonder they cling like drowning men to the merest wisp of a counterargument - it gives them stron EMOTIONAL reinforcement.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Anonymous3:04 PM

    Glenn, Looking forward to getting your book. Kos's set our precinct committeeperson on her ear! We may not beat Walsh this time in NY-25, but I think we can gain on the guy.

    As for the wingers, I think we need to see how this lunacy started in high gear with Limbaugh and later, the anti-Clinton crowd. My worry with these twits is that the anger has become so implacable that violence may be closer than we think. All for a pack of lies, deceits, conceits, and delusions.

    Changing these minds and positions held by wingers will be a very tough job. Wingnutery appears to be like alcoholism, hard to stop and requires a lifetime of effort to control.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Anonymous3:12 PM

    Wrestle with this. Most of us start with a partisan position, left and right. Those more in the middle will drift toward the side that makes the most sense. Those on the more extreme edges will tend to remain in place. Couple of thoughts come to mind.
    First, study what makes those in the middle do rational analysis to come to conclusions that move them toward one side or the other. Second, realize that those of us in the fringes begin with a set of concepts that are difficult to change, and we will do anything to maintain them.
    Third, even though we on the left think that we are right about all of this, it is only an accident. We can easily be wrong, which will lead us to distort reality to suit our set of concepts. This applies to all left and right.
    Fourth, all this is obvious but mostly unrecognized. Consequently we can and will be manipulated.
    Trick is, can someone come up with a scholarly discussion in lay terms, kind of like building a scaffold, on which all can participate open to full public discussion, moderated to maintain civility?

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  67. Anonymous3:12 PM

    I saw a bumper sticker that projected this exact delusion. It said: Conservatives Think, Liberals Feel.

    Reminds me of another quote, I think by Montesquieu:
    A truly intelligent person feels what others only know.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Glenn, just checked with Bookscan and they say they include Amazon.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Anonymous3:19 PM

    So let's see... here we have a pretty long rant taking Drudge to task for making a mistake about book figures.
    In the course of that rant, not only is Drudge maligned, but conservatives in general. Pretty typical stuff, yes?
    And you people are surprised to hear "what-ev-eh"? I ask this... when was the last time this blog said anything complimentary about Bush or Conservatism that wasn't sarcasm? Ever? If not, that makes this blog a one-trick pony. A repetitive screed that publishes to the faithful, where never is heard, a discouraging word.

    In the interests of full disclosure, I must say that I've just been blocked from posting at FDL. Apparently I am a "troll" because I post opinions contrary to the party line. Worse, I often back up those opinions with informational cites. That's facts for the uninitiated. No bad language, no personal attacks, no flames. Just contrary opinions. Sinful isn't it. It will be interesting to see how long I last, on a blog by an advocate for the first amendment.

    Meanwhile back at the ranch, we have Mr. Greenwald attacking Mr. Drudge for disinformation. Yet Mr. Greenwald boldly states he has no information with which to counter Mr. Drudge, only opinion, insinuation, surmise, and circumstance. And yet Mr Drudge, who has at least one source, is the fabricator? But for all that, Mr. Drudge can't be totally feckless, because the dismal performance of Air America also cited in the same post goes unchallenged. For good reason.

    Let's move on, to the presumed groupthink. Two blogs out of hundreds? But the word that rankles most in all this is "what-ev-eh". A word that is totally dismissive of liberal "fact-checking". I ask again, why so surprised?
    Has anything been said here that hasn't been said before? Would 3500 books be any worse than 10 or 15,000 books when Limbaugh has sold millions? Big deal, who cares? Not us. We've already seen the outing of Kerry, the embarrassment of Rather, the firing of Blair and editorial mentor, along with the steady drumbeat of nothing in the world will ever go well until Bush is out of power. Needless to say I'm putting the kind face on this. Recall the thousands of nasty posts to Deborah Howell for having the temerity to say that Abramoff gave money to the Dems? No, he didn't personally give campaign contributions but the Dems still got money steered their way.
    Imagine, days of bile and vitriol over a semantic quibble. And you are surprised by "what-ev-eh?

    Now let's go to the central idea which this screed is wrapped around....
    "It's a world-view which conflates desire with reality, disregards all facts and evidence that conflict with the decreed beliefs, and faithfully embraces any assertions and fantasies, no matter how baseless and flagrantly false, provided that they bolster the mythology.
    This is actually a good summation of why liberalism doesn't work in the real world and is unattractive to many.
    I actually believe in liberals, liberals are necessary for the world to function forward to a better place by way of dreams, hopes, and aspirations. Life cannot continue without hope. But....day-to-day life is not a dream. Human nature has not been thwarted. To try an lead a country without realism is impossible. For instance...
    * Half the country doesn't pay income taxes
    * A Washington Post poll two days after 9/11 got a 78% response that Saddam did it.
    * The war in Iraq will be easier to win than the war on poverty.
    * Pacifism is analogous to the Prisoner's Dilemma. If one party reneges, all other parties are condemned.
    * The UN does not have the power to enforce anything without the US.
    * Nobody has been charged with compromising Plame's status in the CIA. My personal favorite.
    On the other hand we have those that think income inequality can be solved, world peace is possible, Saddam was contained, and everybody's borders should be sacrosanct. Except for Israel.
    Dreaming is good, acting on those dreams as reality will get you killed.

    Enough for now, let the bashing begin. What-ev-eh.

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  70. Anonymous3:20 PM

    Well said.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Anonymous3:26 PM

    Fellow UT readers, I have to conclude that the Powerline boys view Amazon rankings as very important, indeed. They must be muddled -- but impressed -- at Kos’s #24 and Glenn’s #1, in light of:


    John at Powerline (my emphasis):

    There has been a lot of buzz about the fact that the next Harry Potter book, which isn't even out yet, is already #1 on the Amazon best seller list. But, hey, how about Hugh Hewitt's Blog? It is now available, I guess, but just barely-and it is currently #62 on Amazon's list. Pretty amazing, considering that the mainstream media have no idea that it even exists. Yet. As we've already said, Hugh's book is the best discussion so far of the blogosphere, its current significance, and its long-term potential. So, now that it's actually available, you should consider buying it!

    Paul at Powerline:

    “Reader John Richardson points out that Unfit for Duty [sic – Hypatia] tops the Amazon bestseller list and reports that the Barnes & Noble bookstore where he works in the Twin Cities is "inundated with calls and customers wanting the book, which has not yet arrived in the store." Like me, Richardson is confident that this story will come out with or without the spin of the media and the Kerry campaign.

    John again:

    David Hardy and Jason Clarke's Michael Moore Is A Big Fat Stupid White Man has skyrocketed to number three on Amazon's best seller list. Is there any chance that it could dislodge Bill Clinton's My Life at number one? Hard to imagine, but let's all buy a copy.

    More John:

    Reading the 9/11 staff report made me wonder how Stephen Hayes' book, The Connection: How al Qaeda's Collaboration with Saddam Hussein Has Endangered America, is selling. The answer: Not bad. Hayes' book is currently No. 43 on Amazon's best seller list, just ahead of Richard Clarke's tissue of lies and misrepresentations.

    Oh John:

    I confess that I have not yet read Al Gore's new book, Joined at the Heart. Of course, I'm not alone. Al and Tipper's study of American family life currently ranks #1,018 on Amazon's bestseller list. And I have to suspect that most of those sales are institutional--gray-haired librarians in birkenstocks ordering copies for high school kids, and so on. It's hard to imagine a lot of actual people buying this book and reading it. Despite the Gores' massive media push and whatever institutional sales they can muster, it is heartwarming to see their book languishing far behind G. Gordon Liddy's When I Was a Kid, This Was a Free Country, #95, and of course Bob Woodward's Bush at War, #2. It is also fun to read the Amazon reviewers' comments on Joined at the Heart: "Poor Al, another blockbuster fizzled.

    John is sad:

    Here is a sad commentary on our times, and especially on our educational system: Noam Chomsky's latest tract, 9-11, now ranks # 483 on Amazon's best seller list.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Anonymous3:31 PM

    Can this sort of trouser drop with tape measure at the ready possibly be productive towards any goal at all? Even in the vapid world of partisan politics this seems not only irrelevant but is ceding the playing field to the other side. If you are going to play a political numbers game, counting votes is certainly more important than book sales.

    I support Glenn's book with the hope that certain ideas will gain a bigger audience, not to add an extra verse to a bad rap song. These tired PR games may result in a temporary boost of sales among the faithful, but getting even 0.01% of those that are alienated by this sort of crap to buy a book or even vote will create any army that will dwarf the combined hardcore followers of both sides.

    The goal of modern politics is not to get out the vote, it is to get people to stay home. If personalities and box office receipts are the order of the day, how could any of this top the TomKat? One step forward, six steps back.

    If we are going to do People magazine, let's do it right. There are still hookers at the watergate. "Mr. Dean...white courtesy telephone. Mr. Dean...white courtesy telephone. "

    The only mass delusion I see is the willing participation by both sides in a rhetorical system that was not only designed to keep people at home on voting day, but is nothing but a rope of autoerotic asphyxiation.

    Bahhh. I just need a cup of tea... and some knots.

    ReplyDelete
  73. raccoon: That is what makes us completely right and you hominids totally wrong. This scaffold of which you speak

    No one is completely wrong. There's always a mixture of truth, fiction, misperception, etc. Only the insane are completely wrong. And it's hyperbole and mean-spiritedness to accuse the other side of such. They may be really wrong, even mostly wrong, but there's always that substrate of whatever you want to call it--human nature, innate human sensibility for the ethical, etc.--that we can seek to overcome these differences. I don't imagine that anyone on this list believes that we've reached that point yet.

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  74. lastname: The only mass delusion I see is the willing participation by both sides in a rhetorical system that was not only designed to keep people at home on voting day...

    Exactly. And then the question becomes who benefits from such polarization. I think there's something to the idea that insiders/outsiders on all sides are perhaps captive to a socio-economic system that benefits those at the top of that system.

    The so-called culture war is really a class war, and the underlying forces at work are an economics that produces and thrives on antagonism between people with the same interests in an effort to consolidate its hold on power.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anonymous3:45 PM

    From shooter242 at 3:19PM:

    "I ask this... when was the last time this blog said anything complimentary about Bush or Conservatism that wasn't sarcasm? Ever? If not, that makes this blog a one-trick pony. A repetitive screed that publishes to the faithful, where never is heard, a discouraging word."

    I think the difficulty you'll find with this is that, quite bluntly, there isn't anything remotely worthy of compliment about the Bush Administration. They have demonstrated neither solid convictions nor formulated nor enacted a single policy that was intended to benefit anyone beyond their small yet influential donor base.

    If you yourself can point to some act of merit that actually resulted in some public good (that wasn't immediately and utterly overwhelmed by negative consequences), please do.

    "Imagine, days of bile and vitriol over a semantic quibble. And you are surprised by "what-ev-eh?"

    What you call 'semantic quibble' I prefer to think of as 'proven and accurate fact'. You example of Abramoff is a case in point; Abramoff himself gave not one red cent to the Dems, period. Saying "Abramoff gave money to Democrats, too" then is factually inaccurate. The fact a small percentage of fund-raising he was involved with did find its way into Dem coffers doesn't negate the fact Abramoff was exclusively a Republican money-man.

    "This is actually a good summation of why liberalism doesn't work in the real world and is unattractive to many."

    All you've done is repeat Glenn's original point and claimed it applies to liberalism rather than the fantasy world of the WH defenders. To be fair, you do follow up with the following:

    (* Half the country doesn't pay income taxes)

    That's one estimate, and you can bet its the half who attend Republican fund-raisers and believe in a monied aristocracy.

    (* A Washington Post poll two days after 9/11 got a 78% response that Saddam did it.)

    You're point? A similar poll could be held that shows the same percentage believe they're being abducted by little gray men from Zeta Reticula B.

    (* The war in Iraq will be easier to win than the war on poverty.)

    The Iraq expedition, according to a very well-informed study put out recently by the US Army's War College, was doomed from outset; certainly current developments don't offer any hope in that direction. And I doubt anyone here is under the illusion the 'war on poverty' will ever be "won".

    (* Pacifism is analogous to the Prisoner's Dilemma. If one party reneges, all other parties are condemned.)

    Which is why you don't really see any pacifists in todays world or as part of the dialogues engaged in here. We're more realistic and recognize that while military action is sometimes necessary, it isn't and shouldn't be the first, second, and only solution attempted.

    (* The UN does not have the power to enforce anything without the US.)

    Inarguable. Again, what's your point?

    (* Nobody has been charged with compromising Plame's status in the CIA. My personal favorite.)

    Mine as well, though I would point out the investigation is still ongoing, so how about we withhold judgment until Mr. Fitzgerald says he's finished, eh?

    "On the other hand we have those that think income inequality can be solved, world peace is possible, Saddam was contained, and everybody's borders should be sacrosanct. Except for Israel."

    In order: theoretically it can but not with absolute precision, no-one here is that naive, he was, and absolutely. INCLUDING Israel.

    "Dreaming is good, acting on those dreams as reality will get you killed."

    I guess prior generations shouldn't have been 'dreaming' of a more equitable treatment of women, minorities, and other religions then, eh? Oh, wait...

    What else you got?

    ReplyDelete
  76. As evidence for some of my assertions, perhaps this article that belies that the US is the "land of opportunity" will go some way in supporting those statements.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Anonymous3:48 PM

    Hey Glenn,

    You forgot one other one: Glenn Reynolds' book is #1 in Amazon.com sales, and your own book is in the toilet!

    What must it be like to live in that fragile bubble of theirs...

    Which explains the hostility coming from their side -- they greet conflicting evidence with shouts of
    "LA LA LA -- I CAN'T HEAR YOU"

    Pathetic.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Anonymous3:55 PM

    I might suggest reading or re-reading Ron Suskind's piece "Without a Doubt" as a complement to Glenn's post.

    The thing that deeply concern me about this group is that only a few years ago one would only have come across such underlying opinions and worldviews from gun-n-pawn types. Now it's men and women in traditional positions of prestige who are looked up to as community leaders such as John Hinderaker - partner at Faegre & Benson and winner of 'lawyer of the year' by MN Law and Politics (the story is titled "Super Lawyer, Super Blogger" and features two Mr. Hinderakers on the cover, one in a suit and one in pajamas - a possible homage to Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde) I cannot imagine that 6 or 7 years ago the partners of this firm would not have come together and provided Mr. Hinderaker with a gentle ultimatum - stay with the firm or tone down your appearances in the public sphere, namely stop proclaiming that some of the men and women working above, across from, and under you are traitors of the United States of America. What happened to the social restraints that would have limited Mr. Hinderaker's career to the gun-n-pawn ?

    ReplyDelete
  79. Sohei, I did read the link. Kos does not mention what his Amazon sales are, but it's okay because I checked with Bookscan and they INCLUDE Amazon's online sales (and a weighted group of independents, so Kos is wrong there, too).

    Glenn, you're going to have to revise this post and apologize to all the conservative bloggers whom you accused of being too trusting of Drudge. You were too trusting of Kos.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Anonymous4:02 PM

    They are so damn deceitful that I fully expect them to find some slush funds in their right wing war chest to make some bulk purchases of both books next week so that "miraculously" their sales will be fantastic. I am sure some AEI goon is organizing it as we speak.

    Conservatism thy name is deceit and manipulation.

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  81. Anonymous4:05 PM

    shooter242 -

    You accuse Glenn as being a one-trick pony because he hasn't said anything positive about Bush. What do you like about Bush? Mostly what I hear from Bush followers (those who aren't on the high end of hush-money-tax breaks anyway) is how much they dislike/distrust Democrats and Bill Clinton. In the positive, what do you like about Bush?

    ReplyDelete
  82. Anonymous4:17 PM

    Anonymous asks:
    In the positive, what do you like about Bush?

    Anonymous, I think I'll wait a bit and see what the fallout looks like. So far, Yankeependragon is by far the best responder. In addition, I'm not sure I want to converse with someone, without enough substance to come up with a pseudonym in an already anonymous blog comment section.

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  83. davidbyron: If you want to understand the Right's inability to assess facts just look in the mirror.

    This is a very important, probably in a way that you might not accept. It seems that both conservatives and liberals find in the mirror the truth of their own positions. In this regard, the dialectic works in such a way that we find the truth of our beliefs about the meaning of the socio-economic order in the statements/beliefs attributable to the others I most oppose. Indeed, in many ways, we are co-creators of each other. The more extreme my statements, the more extreme will become the statements of those who find that my own statements simply do not accord with the reality they find in the world. And it is exactly the case that extremist statements that deny the very basis of understanding that are the most suspect and most hypocritical.

    I can find no better explanation of this phenomenon than the following from the far-far-left leftist Zizek:

    Recall Jacques Lacan’s definition of successful communication: I get back from the other my own message in its inverted (true) form - is this not what is happening to today’s liberals? Are they not getting back from the conservative populists their own message in its inverted/true form? In other words, are conservative populists not the symptom of tolerant enlightened liberals? Is the scary and ridiculous Kansas redneck who explodes in fury against liberal corruption not the very figure in the guise of which the liberal encounters the truth of his own hypocrisy? We should thus (to refer to the most popular song about Kansas, from The Wizard of Oz) reach over the rainbow - over the “rainbow coalition” of the single-issue struggles, favored by radical liberals - and dare to look for an ally in what appears as the ultimate enemy of tolerant liberalism.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Anonymous4:34 PM

    Pat: If Glenn apologizes to Powerline and Simon, it would be a travesty. Look, I’m not a Kossack; haven’t read Crashing the Gate, and I am now rooting for Demcorats solely because I dislike one-party rule, especially by the Bush-is-King Party. (I voted for Bush in ’04 and have occasionally commented at Roger Simon’s.)

    The grossly petulant and mean-spirited attacks on Kos’s book by Drudge, Powerline and Simon have lost Simon what respect I did have for him – Powerline lost it so long ago I can’t recall when that happened. How sad to see Roger whoring himself for the Bush cause, as Powerline has long done.

    Whether Bookscan incorporates online sales in any given instance is apparently hard to determine, but what is known is that these shrill and uncivil screams that Kos’s book flopped, while Reynods’ is by contrast a smashing success, are FALSE. To quote from Glenn’s second update:

    As of this morning, for Reynolds’ An Army of Davids (February 2006), Bookscan reports 1716 retail sales and 2609 “discount” sales, for a total of 4325.

    As of this morning, for Armstrong and Kos’s Crashing the Gate (March 2006), Bookscan reports 2598 retail sales and 1804 “discount” sales, for a total of 4402.

    In other words, despite the fact that it’s been available for four fewer weeks, Kos and Armstrong’s book has now clocked Bookscan sales in excess of Reynolds’. Notably, several hundred more full-price sales. This is leaving aside the fact that Kos and Armstrong’s book is currently at #40 on Amazon, whereas Reynolds’ is at #801.


    Glenn Reynolds had the good grace to publicly doubt what his “friends” were claiming. He avered that he found CTG quite good in some respects. That is classy.

    Powerline will never apologize for its cheap, unsportsmanlike and false statements. If Roger doesn’t, he isn’t the fair gentleman I had thought him to be.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Anonymous4:39 PM

    the cynic librarian,

    Thank you for your reply.

    I agree, but I also believe that technology and information networks have made great strides towards self sufficiency. When you can provide your own water, food and electricity, economic power becomes much less effective. This revolution is just beginning, but for the first time I can actually see how this may work.

    When economic power is reduced, the artificially created divisions becomes much more important. Especially when you can split up the technologists and farmers into two opposing groups. We are closer than ever to the next great leap. The last battle fought will be over information and technology and we are right smack in the middle of it.

    I am as hopeful and pessimistic as I have ever been.

    ps

    Excellent post at 4:19 PM --- Excellent post at 4:19 PM --- Worth saying twice.

    ReplyDelete
  86. don:

    Drudge probably did some "creative" analysis and selected the "facts". Don't assume he's stupid.

    Ummmm ... why not?

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  87. Anonymous4:48 PM

    Yankeependragon says:
    "I think the difficulty you'll find with this is that, quite bluntly, there isn't anything remotely worthy of compliment about the Bush Administration.

    That proves my point. After such a statement there is nowhere to go, no basis of discussion. In short it's an ultimatum. So why should conservatives bother with anything besides "what-ev-eh"? You've left nothing else to say. I'll list three things I like about Bush, and you'll shoot them down with arguments that have nothing to do with the way I think. We'll then go our seperate ways, and I'll go vote in a winning election. What-ev-eh.

    "If you yourself can point to some act of merit that actually resulted in some public good (that wasn't immediately and utterly overwhelmed by negative consequences), please do.

    Oh yeah there's an open mind. LOL. To further demonstrate my position we need only to go here....

    What you call 'semantic quibble' I prefer to think of as 'proven and accurate fact'. You example of Abramoff is a case in point; Abramoff himself gave not one red cent to the Dems, period. Saying "Abramoff gave money to Democrats, too" then is factually inaccurate. The fact a small percentage of fund-raising he was involved with did find its way into Dem coffers doesn't negate the fact Abramoff was exclusively a Republican money-man.

    I already said Abramoff didn't give any money to Dems personally, but he did funnel money to Dems as part of his lobbying duties. In short you are making the same semantic quibble that engendered the wave of hate at Howell. Here's the first article I got on google about what Dems got money, Daschle, Reid, and Gephart. Dems got money through Abramoff's efforts.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/02/AR2005060202158.html

    Seeing thousands of posters berate Howell is just absurd and indicative of what some Dems consider discourse. And people are surprised at What-ev-eh? To top it off and see Greenwald berate Drudge for having the facts wrong, with none of his own? Chutzpah.

    On your behalf, you've made some salient points about other things I listed. I'm sure we'll get around t them in due course.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous4:52 PM

    I notice that the right-wing radio talking heads use the same tactics in referring to Air America.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Anonymous4:52 PM

    Shooter 242 writes: I ask this... when was the last time this blog said anything complimentary about Bush or Conservatism that wasn't sarcasm? Ever? If not, that makes this blog a one-trick pony. A repetitive screed that publishes to the faithful, where never is heard, a discouraging word.

    Whoa, there. First, I’m not a liberal, and frankly, I’ve never seen Glenn Greenwald identify that way, either. In fact, he was recently published in American Conservative magazine.

    Yes, there are a lot of liberals, “progressives,” and left-wingers commenting here. That is to be expected on a blog that takes strong exception to the policies of George Bush. But this site also attracts GOP-tilting libertarians like me. We are outnumbered, but we are here, too.

    Opposing the monarchical power-grab and incompetence of the populist, big government policies of George W. Bush does not equal opposing “conservatism.” Indeed, if you support those policies, you, sir, are a damn peculiar conservative. Barry Goldwater is rolling in his grave at what the modern GOP has become.

    In any event, I do hope you will read Glenn’s book. If you do so, you will learn why anything resembling a true conservative – or someone who simply adheres to basic American civil values – should be quite alarmed at Bush. If that means I’m in the company of a lot of lefties, well, they are correct in this instance, even if not for all the right reasons (as I see it).

    ReplyDelete
  90. Anonymous4:59 PM

    yankeependragon said...

    So, the question next becomes twofold:

    "First: anyone think is there some 'critical mass' of counter-evidence that stands some chance of getting these defenders to actually *think* about their support more objectively than they currently do (I'm not naive enough to hope they'd reconsider their positions)?"

    I don't think there is some critical mass that is somehow going to change everyones mind in one fell swoop. The evidence that change is occuring however lies in the continuing drop in Bush's poll numbers. This is what the trolls (who will never change because they have some stake in the present status) are fighting. The little chinks that keep getting chipped out of the armor. The way IMO to keep that happening is to do what is being done now on this blog. Keep hammering away everyday at the facts and the truth. To keep refuting the lies that the trolls spew out even though they themselves will continue to ignore the facts and the truth.

    "Second: presuming these same defenders remain steady in their convictions for the foreseeable future, anyone care to postulate how much influence they will exert in the coming 48 months?"

    Their influence is waning already. Again the evidence is in the continuing drop in the poll numbers. It is also evidenced by the change in Bush's behavior. If you have watched his behavior and statements in the last few days you will notice significant change. IE: During the last gas crisis after Katrina he steadfastly clung to the notion that the spike was due only to market forces and nothing could be done about it. He started out the same way this time but quickly changed and made announcements about stopping the fill of the strategic petroleum reserve, and announcing support for the roll back of tax breaks for oil companies that are literally up to their necks in unearned profits. I find it interesting that he seemingly makes no connection to his overt threats to Iran with the spike in oil prices. Either that or he is intentionally ignoring it. He is also threatening a veto of the supplemental spending bill if it goes over his set limit. A veto that would be the first of his presidency and one that is intended to appeal to his conservative base.

    I don't think this behavior change will help him though other than to possibly slow down or stop the hemorraging of his poll numbers. Although the public has an incredibly collective short term memory the loss of trust is something that is not easily forgotten or regained.

    ReplyDelete
  91. davidbyrne: I didn't understand a word of his (the cynic librarian) 4:19 post.

    I know, it calls into a play a level of self-transformation that you perhaps are not yet ready to undertake. Woops, did I say self-transformation? What wild, crazy, tree-hugging BS am I trying to perpetrate?

    Of course, you'll know that such a notion goes to the beginnings of democracy in the west via such crazy guys as Plato, Scorates, and Aristotle.

    And, as you'll know, it gets picked up by that perhaps most archetypal American democrat, Emerson.

    You know, this even leads me to ask why the neo-cons, those Platonic/Aristotelian poseurs, leave exactly this notion of individual self-transformation out of their their screeds.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Anonymous5:00 PM

    There are two things I like about Bush.

    1) He has revitalized the Democratic party by driving so many real Republicans and conservatives into voting Democratic.

    2) He can never be president again.

    ReplyDelete
  93. shooter242:

    * The war in Iraq will be easier to win than the war on poverty.

    With Republicans in power, the first is impossible because of incompetence, the latter impossible by choice.

    I'll let others tear the rest of your hysterical rant apart.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous5:01 PM

    Didn't read through all the comments, so sorry if someone has already pointed this out, but, Glenn, I agree with everything you write except for this:

    "To try to analyze the success of their book by excluding online sales is blatantly and staggeringly dumb."

    The dumbness or smartness really depends upon one's perspective and motivation.

    Yes, if one wished to get a true and realistic sense of the popularity of the book, this is an immensely stupid way to go about it.

    If, however, one wanted to paint a distorted picture in order to establish a personally useful and hard-to-extinguish myth in the media or blogosphere, then analyzing as such is far from dumb.

    Which of these two goals do you think the bloggers in question had in mind?

    ReplyDelete
  95. Anonymous5:05 PM

    Hypatia says:
    Barry Goldwater is rolling in his grave at what the modern GOP has become.


    It was the fundies that knocked him over first, and his staunch advocacy of conservatism softened as he got older. Were he alive today he might even have done a reverse Zell Miller. You guys do it all the time, claim the dead as "libertarians" because they cannot protest. There is more a chance that my posthumous claim is correct than most of yours.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Anonymous5:07 PM

    shooter242:

    Don't you have some plinking you would rather do? Rats at the dump you could be shooting?

    ReplyDelete
  97. Anonymous5:07 PM

    According to THIS the bookscan numbers do include amazon. Can someone confirm if this is the case or not.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anonymous5:07 PM

    Hypatia says:
    Yes, there are a lot of liberals, “progressives,” and left-wingers commenting here. That is to be expected on a blog that takes strong exception to the policies of George Bush. But this site also attracts GOP-tilting libertarians like me. We are outnumbered, but we are here, too.

    I'm glad to hear it. Let's see what happens. :^)

    ReplyDelete
  99. It's not scientific, but one way to judge the relative number of total online sales is to compare the number of online reviews posted. At Amazon, Kos is not only selling better daily, but he has a big lead in total number of reviews too:

    Kos: 72 reviews
    Reynolds: 22 reviews

    ReplyDelete
  100. Anonymous5:08 PM

    DavidByron said...
    I didn't understand a word of his (the cynic librarian) 4:19 post.

    said another way...

    A mirror is the perfect devil.
    Always the inverse and always there.
    Vivid descriptions to the sketch artist,
    crudely mocked in caricature, but
    recognizable as the accuser.

    Do we all have to wake slashed and scarred
    in blood, glass and silver
    to know we are not through the other side?

    Sentient only in reflection.

    Oh Alice,
    Oh the alchemy of metals and sand
    and the wonder of smallness.

    ReplyDelete
  101. shooter242:

    * Pacifism is analogous to the Prisoner's Dilemma. If one party reneges, all other parties are condemned.

    Ummm, the whole point of the "Prisoner's Dilemma" is that "logical" behaviour will lead to bad consequences for all from a global perspective. The trouble for everyone arises because the other "prisoner" thinks the same way you do, and this happens unless people know the big picture and agree not to attack each other. IOW, if you don't take the "pacifist" view (and everyone else follows the same logic and does likewise) then everyone loses. It's symmetrical, you see. Maybe you didn't understand that point. SO before you start spouting about PD, you oght to edumakate yourself a bit.

    Iterated PD studies have shown that one of the more robust strategies is "Tit-for-Tat", and that pre-emption (or "first-strike") tends to get punished, even from the standpoint of the striker. You probably don't know that either.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  102. Anonymous5:12 PM

    DavidByron said...
    Is there really much difference between how the Right defends the Iraq war and how much of the left defends eg. Clinton's war on Serbia? From the perspective of someone opposed to both criminal wars the denial seems identical.


    Except for the fact that not one American combat death occurred during Clinton's war and he never made a big showy landing on an Aircraft carrier when the mission was accomplished, and that mission actually was accomplished. Other than that I might agree with you... nah>

    ReplyDelete
  103. Anonymous5:13 PM

    Yankkependragon,

    I always like reading your posts.

    Scooter,

    "nobody has been charged with compromising Plames status in the CIA"

    So what? Most administration defenders highlight this as if it proves something. The fact that they treat the outing of a CIA agent during a time of "war" with such a "no big deal" attitude is revealing. The continued insistance that even Plames neighbors knew she was CIA speeks directly to the dilusional mindset discussed by Glenn and the commenters here. I'm glad that you brought this up. Dilusional mindset glaringly highlighted here in paragraph 6 and 7:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801340.html

    So the fact that "nobody hyas been charged with compromising Plames status in the CIA" means what? Nothing really. The rest of the transcript will thell you why that is. Hint: Its called purjury and obstruction.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Anonymous5:14 PM

    several commenters have asked :

    what do we do about the obtuseness to facts and reality that seems to infect right-wing political discourse?

    "not much."

    is my answer.

    except to continue steadily describing the social and political reality our nation has before it.

    as part of the puzzling over right-wing public political discourse that is the topic of this post of ggr's,

    let me switch from a purely social psychological perspective to one involving history also.

    the phenomenon of the right-wing believer impervious to any fact or reasoning not sanctioned by his group

    is, in my opinion, the mirror image

    of the left-wing public political discourse in the 1920's and 30's when supporting workers' rights and defending communism in europe and, especially the soviet union, were the topics of much oblivious public discussion by impassioned left-wing believers.

    i don't know enough about our history to comment in detail about this,

    so i pose this mostly as an hypothesis.

    but in support of that hypothesis,

    i would suggest that the same sort of passionate, oblivious-to-reality personality was active in american left-wing politics in the 20's and 30's

    as is active now in american right-wing politics.

    (feel free to correct or amend)

    and in fact i believe i am right in recalling that some of the sons or grandsons of prominent left-wing zealots of old

    have become right-wing zealots.

    any body got any names they can put in here?

    "podhoretz" comes to mind but i may be being unfair to some poor family due to my faulty memory and welcome corrections from the more erudite.

    at any rate,

    the point is that our political system must, essentially,

    weather these storms of passion,

    which may last 20-50 years before dying out.

    but the process is never ending ("eternal vigilence...." because,

    once today's set of right-wing passions is dead,

    another group of writers and speakers will manufacture another parallel political universe,

    or imagine another hell into which we are descending,

    and the cycle will start again.

    only we (future generations) may not describe it as "right-wing", it may be "left-wing", or "militant capitalist" or "environmental radical".

    the best protection for ourselves and our nation is simply to keep steadily describing the social and political reality we have before us.

    e.g., the war on Iraq has caused us great loss of men, money, and global respect

    e.g., the federal budget deficit and the national trade deficits are of such magnitude as ot threaten our economy and economic Independence.

    e.g., george w. bush has not demonstrated the kind of competencies we have a right to expect from an american president.

    eventually,

    reality will intrude on the current american right-wing,

    just as it intruded on the left-wing of old.

    in the meantime,

    some folks have to try to keep the cart

    in the middle of the road and

    out of the ditch.

    th- th- the that's us, folks.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous5:15 PM

    Anonymous said...
    According to THIS the bookscan numbers do include amazon. Can someone confirm if this is the case or not.

    5:07 PM


    Yer joking, right? Fuckit. believe what you want. You wingers will anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Anonymous5:25 PM

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801340.html

    Oops, Looks like the link got cut off. Its a Washington Post transcript. And sorry, I meant "shooter"

    ReplyDelete
  107. Anonymous5:27 PM

    Pat gets a thrill from the wet spot in his pants when a blogwhore here to his right trash blog results in a weekly hit count of sixteen from six, all six hits from his weakly posts.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Anonymous5:31 PM

    Damn, Try this one:

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=patrick+fitzgerald+press+conference&spell=1

    First one in the search. Its the transcript of Patrick Fitzgerald's press conference.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anonymous5:32 PM

    Faith is the belief in something for which there is no evidence.

    People like Hewitt, Drudge, Glenn Reynolds, etc like to make a big deal about their "faith". Do you get the connection?

    I am reminded of Bill Bennett crowing on his radio show about how he had the #14 radio show in the country. Something about that assertion bothered me, so I went to the Talkers' Magazine that he used to make this statement.

    Yes, it showed a number "14" next to his name. However, since many of the radio shows above his were statistically tied (there were three shows tied for second place, and three shows tied for 6th), it turns out there were actually 26 talk shows ranked higher than his. This would be like the White Sox and Cleveland being tied for first place, and Detroit who was behind both of them claiming to be #2.

    The entire Republican Party has relied upon lies and ignorance to gain and maintain power. The good news is that it can't last forever.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Paul Rosenberg:

    This is a crucial point: Some folks are true believers in the sense that they believe so thoroughly that any lie is permissible to further the cause. These are the kool-aid servers. Others are true believers in the sense that they believe any lie that's told to further the cause. These are the kool-aid drinkers.

    Over time, however, if you drink enough kool-aid, you can turn into a kool-aid server.


    Yes, but isn’t the opposite true as well – that the “servers” end up drinking it too? And isn’t that what has happened within cloistered bubble of the White House?

    (Now it’s true that Rove and some of the other strategists don’t believe what they are telling their base. Remember Scanlon (Delay’s chief of staff) referred to the Christian right as “the wackos” and now Delay is aspiring to be their leader.)

    But on a larger level, outside of strategy, I believe the “servers” have ended up serving so much of this toxic brew that fumes alone have affected their critical capabilities. Suskind’s article is one example. And today, Sidney Blumental makes much the same point.

    The more beleaguered Bush becomes, the more he is flattered by his advisors with comparisons to great men of history whose foresight and courage were not always appreciated in their own times.

    Criticism and unpopularity only confirm to him his bravery and his critics' weakness. Being reviled is proof of his righteousness. Inevitably, decades hence, people will grasp his radiant truth and glory. Such is the passion of George W. Bush.


    In short, Bush himself is drinking the Kool-Aid. Once you accept that, then it’s possible to consider an act of insanity like nuking Iran a real possibility. As I watch him speaking to his selected audiences, getting angry, and trying hard to make a point, I always come away thinking that there is something seriously wrong with this man.

    It’s clear, isn’t it? He’s a Kool-Aid-oholic. His aides have been serving him this stuff too long, and he’s really gone now.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Is there really much difference between how the Right defends the Iraq war and how much of the left defends eg. Clinton's war on Serbia? From the perspective of someone opposed to both criminal wars the denial seems identical.
    Leaving aside the respective merits and outcomes of the two wars (even though Clinton comes out on top in either case), are you seriously suggesting that the "Left" supported the war in Kosovo in the same Stalinistic fashion that the Right does Iraq? Either you weren't conscious then or you are a troll (possibly the same thing). Read dispatches from Robert Fisk, read Chomsky, read Alexander Cockburn, read FAIR's critiques. Read Micahel Moore. As someone on the Left who opposed it but hoped for a good outcome once it started, I recall vividly the extremely fragile support the war had even from other Democrats, let alone "the Left." Yes, there were some supporters. The war in Kosovo, it is objective to say, split the Left, something that is 180 degrees from any statement you can make about Iraq and the Right.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Glenn, fair enough. I think what's happened here is that both Kos and Instapundit have access to different numbers that tell them their sales are higher than the Bookscan figures, so both think they are outselling the other. And of course, you trust Kos and Roger and Hinderaker trust Reynolds.

    Arguing with Sohei is like trying to teach a pig to dance; you just get dirty and it annoys the pig. I did not post as anonymous and include the link to my blog, something that Glenn can probably confirm by IP addys. Considering that Glenn's linked my post, I'm hardly trolling here.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous6:06 PM

    Actually it provides an illustration of not only the approach of Bush defenders, but mirrors the approach taken by the Bush administration.

    Obvious examples include tax cuts, which are constantly touted as increasing revenue and not adding to the deficit despite the obvious fact that they are. Other examples include the whole buildup to the Iraq war. Consistently they assume what they want to be true is true and not only don't seek out independent verification, but actively distort the "fact-finding process so as to come to the conclusion they wanted all along.

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous6:09 PM

    I think their inability to reason and deal with sound criticism and fact is why you rarely see a conservative blog with comments sections.

    lets see. Powerline...oops, no comments...Michelle Malkin...nope. Instapundit? Nope. Hugh Hewitt? Nah. Umm...redstate? Well, yes, sort of, not anyone new, not after too many damn lefties started commenting on it and got blocked from commenting.

    whereas on Atrios, C&L, Kos, here, Americablog, etc. anyone can comment and point out any fallacies, yet you rarely see it.

    To me, if you really believed in what you said, and believed your arguments to be sound and rational, comments would be welcome, but when you know you are lying through your teeth you have to block any dissenting opinions.

    Too bad their president can't do the same thing...no matter how hard he tries.

    They are all such cowards.

    ReplyDelete
  115. davidbyron: All I meant was that I could understand what you were trying to say. Your sarcasm isn't helping.

    Why don't you just say it again in different words?


    Fair enough. You said: If you want to understand the Right's inability to assess facts just look in the mirror.

    I read this as saying that the Left ("you", the reader, assumed leftist on this list) must look to itself to understand how and why the Right cannot/do not assess "the facts" correctly, something Glenn's posting asserts. This means, I think, that the Left is just as much guilty of skewing, misperceiving, distorting facts as much as the Right is.

    Your statement, I believe, reflects something I have been proposing all day: the best way to understand others is to know their arguments--not from the outside, so to speak, but from the inside. This assumes that--if my argument is correct--the extremists from both sides and others (middle-of-the-roaders) agree perhaps more than they disagree.

    That is, were each to see the reality--that the only ones to benefit from the extremists being at each others' throats are those who head the current socio-political system--they might indeed accomplish more than spending all day accusing each other that it's the other guy who's wrong and the only ones who deceive themselves.

    I used the quote from Zizek to make this point. Specifically, Zizek's discussion goes to show how the evangelical redneck oh so hated by "the radical Leftists" of various brands is actually a product of the Leftists' over-emphasis on such distracting movements like identity politics, women's rights, gay rights, and so on.

    Not that these are not significant issues but that they distract from the real issue: the class warfare promoted by a socio-economic system that benefits from pitting lower class rightists against those who should indeed understand that the source of our problems is the socio-economic system and not religion, gender, homophobia, and so on.

    For Zizek, it's hypocritical Leftists who want to emphasize gender/race issues over the real issue of class who are the problem, not the "redneck" evangelical. Indeed, it's the latter whose rage and anger must be understood to truly understand what the real issues are.

    In other words, it is indeed the economy stupid but in a way that neithehr Carville nor the Clintons would be willing to accept since they are simply mouthpieces of the socio-economic uber-rulers; what Zizek has called Leftist communists like Gates and Soros.

    Does that make any more sense?

    ReplyDelete
  116. i can say from close personal family experience that yes, Norman Podhoretz and irving kristol both were lefties, both were hired by a direct relative of mine to work at commentary, both had "transformative" experiences which left them as conservatives, both of them squeezed/screwed my relative out of that person's position, and both became sires to hellspawn.

    further, i can testify from the oral history of my family that a blindness to stalin was a feature of a certain segment of the old old Left. however, there are two key differences. one, it was harder to get solid info in those days, so while it seemed clear that stalin was a fascist thug, there wasn't the same kind of proof as we have today about most things. it was more of a series of arguments that should have been treated more persuasively. two, it was mostly a certain type of lefty who was willfully blind (if one doesn't accept explanation one), mostly on the intellectual side. the left then had a strong populist component many of whom had no clue about russia at all and didn't really care--they were fighting for (and sometimes winning) the rights we now take for granted, particularly in the workplace.

    my two cents.

    ReplyDelete
  117. davidbyron: PS, by implication, I think my comments go some way toward critiquing Glenn's tack in this posting. Instead of attacking the stupidity and baseless beliefs of the Rightists he should, perhaps, be showing a way for them to see that his position does indeed affirm many things they themselves would accept and find true.

    ReplyDelete
  118. shooter242:

    Yankeependragon says:
    "I think the difficulty you'll find with this is that, quite bluntly, there isn't anything remotely worthy of compliment about the Bush Administration."


    That proves my point. After such a statement there is nowhere to go, no basis of discussion.

    For the hard-of-thinking, I suppose not. But you might consider doing what was asked of you, and maybe listing, say, one or two items of what you like about the maladministration. Why you should insist on waiting until your erstwhile opponent puts forth your arguments for you is something I just can't figure out. It works like this:

    A). "I don't like anything about the administration."

    B). "Oh, well, what about when he did *XXX*? Wasn't that good?"

    etc.

    Think you can figure out what a dialogue consists of?

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anonymous6:15 PM

    At my local B&N, Painting the Map Red was prominently displayed at the entrance on the new arrivals table and Crashing the Gate was buried in the boonies at the back of the store. If I hadn't asked for it, I never would have found it on my own. So, it makes me wonder why Hewitt's book has sold so few copies. It has Boardwalk and Park Place.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Anonymous6:19 PM

    I talked with Bookscan earlier. They apparently *DO NOT* include Amazon sales in their tabulations.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous6:24 PM

    Keith says:
    "So what? Most administration defenders highlight this as if it proves something."
    It certainly does. It proves that Plame's status is a non-issue, contradicting years of smears, lies, and leak allegations by the left.

    "The fact that they treat the outing of a CIA agent during a time of "war" with such a "no big deal" attitude is revealing."
    Perhaps the sentence above didn't register. There was no outing by the administration. In fact, the idea that Plame might be covert didn't come up until Wilson's interview with Corn. You might say Wilson outed his own wife. Until then she had been happily driving to and fro from the CIA building to home and family.
    http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?bid=3&pid=823

    ReplyDelete
  122. Anonymous6:38 PM

    Random comment:

    Whenever Glenn quotes a right-wing blogger, I am always struck by how doggedly colloquial/lowbrow their rants are. They use cliches, they pose with exaggerated mannerisms, they fuss and preen and pretend, and they do it in such a forced anti-literary voice. Never mind the lack of simple sentence-level logic or even clearly-stated assertions. Take the following:

    "Kos claims that Drudge’s numbers aren’t on the up and up. What-ev-eh."

    Notice "up-and-up." Note the exaggerated spelling of "Whatever." I finally put it together today . . .

    They think they are in show biz. They grew up on TV and have learned nothing but how to imitate the speech that they think will reach the most people and get the most attention. They are computer-literate Bill O'Reillys. That's all, except that they seem to lack real jobs.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Anonymous6:41 PM

    Arne Langsetmo says:
    For the hard-of-thinking, I suppose not. But you might consider doing what was asked of you, and maybe listing, say, one or two items of what you like about the maladministration.

    Do you realize that you just made two insults? Explain to me again why I should engage someone that can't speak without using pejoratives? What-ev-eh.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Anonymous6:52 PM

    Arne,

    Shooter wants a hug.

    Shooter, make like a tree and leave. Maybe the big, bad, mean and nasty liberal will hug you then. Or if the dog is around he might do something else cause he really doesn't know any better.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Anonymous6:58 PM

    I wouldn't be too down on the inability of the entire right wing to change their political position based on available facts. There is hope.

    In example: for 95% of my life, a whole 18 years, I was quite the Zombie of the Right, inevitably due to having grown up in Houston, TX. However, this past year I've found more and more info, via the Internet, so much so that I'm moreso the opposite of what I once was.

    Actually , just the other day I had the pleasure of being labeled a...umm...ah, yes: screeching moonbat *blink*

    There may not be hope with some, but there be hope indeed.

    ReplyDelete
  126. hmmmm is Arlen reading this blog? Some might remember when I suggested exactly this tactic on this blog to get more info from the Admin on its NSA domestic program(s).

    According to Yahoo:

    Without a pledge from Bush to provide more information on the surveillance program, Specter filed an amendment to a spending bill Thursday that amounted to a warning to the White House.

    The amendment would enact a "prohibition on use of funds for domestic electronic surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes unless Congress is kept fully and currently informed."

    Specter also said he would turn the amendment into a bill and hold hearings.

    "Institutionally, the presidency is walking all over Congress at the moment," Specter said. "If we are to maintain our institutional prerogative, that may be the only way we can do it."

    Specter made clear that, for now, the threat was just that.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Anonymous7:05 PM

    Shooter242 said...
    Arne Langsetmo says:
    For the hard-of-thinking, I suppose not. But you might consider doing what was asked of you, and maybe listing, say, one or two items of what you like about the maladministration.

    Do you realize that you just made two insults? Explain to me again why I should engage someone that can't speak without using pejoratives? What-ev-eh.

    6:41 PM


    And I have it on good authority that "shooter" or "pooter" as we like to call him, has never used the term "tree-hugger" as an insult. He doesn't even think it's an insult. It's not even funny. I know because EX-LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER Mark Furman of the OJ trial told me so. And as we all know, Furman never used the term "nigger". He swore under oath in a court of law. Except for that time he was writing a movie script and he was caught on tape using that awful word. Then he took an early retirement to Coeur d'Alene, Idaho so he could be with his own kind. white supremacists.

    ReplyDelete
  128. davidbyrne: My original comment was just saying that Democrats have their dogmatic positions too.

    Understood. Thanks for the feedback.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous7:19 PM

    robert green (6:12):

    thank you for the anecdote and confirmation.

    now we have at least two "switching" families. i'm sure there are many others.

    my thought is that there tend to be "politically dramatic" personalities who a born to "start a movement",

    and generate a coherent sophistry for adherents to follow.

    this is true in religion also. in fact, the personality types may well be similar.

    ReplyDelete
  130. Anonymous7:19 PM

    Thanks for proving my point Shooter,


    Are you actually suggesting that The Nation knows more about the case than Patrick Fitzgerald? Did you even search for the transcript of Fitzgeralds press conference? It seems that you ignored that part of my post entirely. I can see why you did though. If you did actually read it, then mabye you could tell me what is so hard to understand about this direct quote from the transcript:

    "Before I talk about those charges and what the indictment alleges, I'd like to put the investigation into a little context.

    Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer. In July 2003, the fact that Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer was classified. Not only was it classified, but it was not widely known outside the intelligence community.

    Valerie Wilson's friends, neighbors, college classmates had no idea she had another life."

    Now here is what you said:

    "There was no outing by the administration. In fact, the idea that Plame might be covert didn't come up until Wilson's interview with Corn. You might say Wilson outed his own wife. Until then she had been happily driving to and fro from the CIA building to home and family."


    I don't know if there exists a more glaring example of the exact thing we are talking about here. Either you are dilousional or you are just a plain liar/spinner. Thanks for helping us point it out so clearly.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Anonymous7:23 PM

    Pat persists in apologizing for the rank and petulant errors of Powerline and Simon: I think what's happened here is that both Kos and Instapundit have access to different numbers that tell them their sales are higher than the Bookscan figures, so both think they are outselling the other. And of course, you trust Kos and Roger and Hinderaker trust Reynolds.

    No.

    Repeat: *N*O*.

    Reynolds didn't start this, and in fact publicly doubted what Powerline and Simon were claiming. The numbers speak for themselves, INDEPENDENT of who claims, found, posts or culls them. Kos is outselling Reynolds. Simon's claim otherwise was as baseless and unsupported as it was mean-spirited and characteristic of a partisan hack.

    The nasty argument Simon and Powerline made, to wit: that Kos has "pathetic" sales due to [fill in the blank with litany of negative characterizations of Kos and any audience available to Kos] while Reynolds ostensibly demonstrated all this respect in the blogosphere for his intelligence blah, blah with sales that far surpass Kos. THAT IS ALL FALSE. And petty. Simon needs to claim his error and apologize.

    ReplyDelete
  132. The best conservative meme that I've picked up is:
    re: Hillary: "I read that she didn't shower while she was in law school."
    -- from the mind of Smart_Chick06,
    Ada, Oklahoma.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anonymous7:41 PM

    It's been a while since I read the whole thing myself. Ther are some doozies in there Shooter! I'll help you some more:

    "Valerie Wilson's cover was blown in July 2003. The first sign of that cover being blown was when Mr. Novak published a column on July 14th, 2003." (ouch)

    "That brings us to the fall of 2003. When it was clear that Valerie Wilson's cover had been blown, investigation began. And in October 2003, the FBI interviewed Mr. Libby. Mr. Libby is the vice president's chief of staff. He's also an assistant to the president and an assistant to the vice president for national security affairs"

    "This is a very serious matter and compromising national security information is a very serious matter. But the need to get to the bottom of what happened and whether national security was compromised by inadvertence, by recklessness, by maliciousness is extremely important. We need to know the truth. And anyone who would go into a grand jury and lie, obstruct and impede the investigation has committed a serious crime."

    But you said,

    "It certainly does. It proves that Plame's status is a non-issue, contradicting years of smears, lies, and leak allegations by the left."

    Ooops! Maybe you should tell Fitzgerald he has made a big mistake! He does not think this is a non-issue.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Anonymous7:48 PM

    Plame and Wilson will be indcicted tomorrow... or the day after tomorrow... or the day after that... or

    ReplyDelete
  135. Anonymous7:53 PM

    The argument that Valerie Plame was never covert is an excellent example of a right-wing meme that will not die, regardless of the facts. Shooter picked an excellent example, much better than his attempt to link Bush and conservatives.

    The idea that Plame wasn't covert is improbable on its face - the CIA knew the law, and requested that Justice look into it. That meant that the CIA's lawyers must have decided that the case had merit. Justice agreed and appointed a special prosecutor after Ashcroft recused himself - yet more lawyers had to agree the case had merit.

    Secondly, as far as I know, no one involved in the case has tried to assert that Plame was not covert. When you are making an argument that even the defense lawyer won't argue, you've probably gone too far.

    Third, a judge has looked into the case and decided that Plame had done covert work overseas and the CIA was making steps to conceal her identity. Libby wasn't charged with the original crime not because Plame wasn't covert, but because Fitzgerald doesn't have proof he knew she was. Both Scooter's and Rove's actions indicate a certain guilty mindset.

    Shooter, if you won't answer the question about what you like about Bush (my answer: federal do not call list), can you at least say what evidence you would accept to agree that Plame was covert?

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous8:26 PM

    Wow!

    All these posts about nothing.

    Even Markos uses Drudges figures to come up with his numbers.

    I guess ou guys are really upset about how HORRIBLE Kos's book is doing, huh?

    Defensive, much?

    LOL!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  137. Anonymous9:14 PM

    Again, none other than Instapundit himself continues to insist that the Drudge item was codswollop. Now Powerline and Roger Simon simply need to apologize and admit it.

    ReplyDelete
  138. "Reynolds didn't start this, and in fact publicly doubted what Powerline and Simon were claiming. The numbers speak for themselves, INDEPENDENT of who claims, found, posts or culls them. Kos is outselling Reynolds. Simon's claim otherwise was as baseless and unsupported as it was mean-spirited and characteristic of a partisan hack."

    Hypatia, Reynolds wrote:

    "Yes, my book is selling a lot better than Drudge says that Kos's book is selling."

    Now, he did go on to say that he doubted the figures Drudge was quoting, but I can absolutely see Roger reading that quote above and assuming that it meant that Instapundit's book was outselling Kos'. Roger did not have access to the numbers that Glenn has posted here which certainly indicate the opposite.

    But given that most of the liberal blogosphere seems to doubt the numbers for Crashing the Gates, how can you then go ahead and point to the numbers compiled by the same source for An Army of Davids? It seems to me either you believe the numbers or not; you can't believe them when they suit your argument and ignore them when they do not.

    Going against type here, I'm going to guess that Crashing the Gate really is outselling AAoD. Are the absolute numbers accurate? I don't think so, otherwise why would Reynolds have said his book was doing quite a bit better than what Drudge reported for Kos? I'm sure some here think he's just lying, but I doubt it. Kos obviously thinks he's selling a lot more books than reported.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Anonymous9:42 PM

    Looks like our resident "copy and paste" troll is upset that glenn's book is doing so well and that less than one third of Americans support his idol chimp.

    Poor boy is throwing temper tantrums.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous9:44 PM

    HEY BART!!!!!!

    Why don't you save all you talking points for YOUR book!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Let the "free markets" determine the value of your prose.

    Don't give it all away here -- MAKE US BUY IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I am sure that given the chimp's popularity, you will find a vast, untapped market for the "wisdom" you sprew here?

    Why not save it for a book?

    ReplyDelete
  141. Anonymous9:50 PM

    Ender says:
    Now what part of this do you not understand? What part of this is not plain to you? What is it about your psyche that keeps you from being able to process this information in a correct and truthful way? This is the thing we are discussing here shooter - delusion.

    So all these Democrats, are giving back all this money, for nothing? Perhaps they are all delusional too?
    LOL.
    * Senate Minority Whip Dick Durbin, D-Ill., $11,000 to the American Indian Center of Chicago and the American Indian Health Service of Chicago.
    * Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., $2,000 to charity.
    * Tim Johnson, D-S.D., $8,250 to Billy Mills Running Strong for American Indian Youth.
    * Barbara Mikulski, D-Md., $5,000, to the American Indian College Fund.
    * Henry Cuellar, D-Texas, $500 to be returned to the Tigua tribe of El Paso.
    * Peter DeFazio, D-Ore., $1,500 total to be returned to the Agua Caliente Band of Cahuilla Indians in California and the Michigan Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe.
    * Eliot Engel, D-N.Y., $1,000 to be returned to the Saginaw Chippewa Tribe.
    * Lane Evans, D-Ill., $2,000 to Community Caring Conference.
    * Tim Holden, D-Pa., $1,000 to an animal shelter.
    * Nita Lowey, D-N.Y., $2,000 to be refunded.
    * Earl Pomeroy, D-N.D., $6,950 to be refunded.
    * Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., $2,000 to charity.
    * Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., $18,892 to seven tribal colleges.
    * Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., $3,750 to North Dakota’s tribal colleges.
    * Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., $67,000 refunded.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10723902/

    ReplyDelete
  142. Anonymous10:15 PM

    some,

    actually quite a few,

    commenters at this weblog need to clean up their intellectual act.

    personally, i think those "acts" are a disservice to what could be a first-rate intellectual weblog.

    and, no,

    i am not talking just about people with whose politics i disagree (right-wingers) this time.

    i am talking about the

    tedious arm-wrestling

    that passes for argumentation between both sides of the fence at this site.

    sometimes, when i come here, i feel like

    this site resembles verdun:

    mud and death,

    day after day after day.

    nothing new, nothing different, all positions entrenched and reactive to the "other".

    and yet here

    i can find some of the best citations in my own weblog word.

    here,

    i can find some of the best and most passionate arguments against the injustices and unfairness many of us see in our contemporary world.

    i presume that ggr cannot say anything since he is a host

    and, especially, since he is a first amendment guy.

    but i can.

    trash talk is trash talk,

    and there is more back-and-forth trash talk here than is acceptable on a first-rate weblog site,

    which i consider this site to be,

    as i am sure most other commenters do also.

    this site has a lot to offer

    but it is somewhat repulsive to come here and

    scroll down thru "pages" (in old-fashion terms) of comments that are just self-gratification of the lowest order.

    and yes,

    i do know what self-gratification of the highest order is,

    and much, but not all, of the back-and-forth commentary here is well below that.

    like they say,

    don't feed the trolls.

    if you have an incurable itch to do so,

    for gosh sake,

    don't make the fool's mistake of trying to convince them with relevant facts.

    that's not where they are coming from.

    that's a fools' game.

    i know, i've played it occasionally.

    ReplyDelete
  143. Anonymous10:21 PM

    Pat writes: Now, he did go on to say that he doubted the figures Drudge was quoting, but I can absolutely see Roger reading that quote above and assuming that it meant that Instapundit's book was outselling Kos'.

    And I can absolutely see an intellectually honest person who made such a mistake, now that he knows or should know he did, posting a correction and apologizing for his cheap and mean-spirited attack. An unwarranted attack on Kos and his audience, all under the rubric of purportedly "pathetic" sales that actually, contrary to what Simon wrote, are superior to those of the writer who is ideologically pleasing to Simon, namely, Instapundit. The small-minded and gratuitous slam of Kos, and the comparison with Reynolds, were totally baseless.

    So, when will Simon be issuing that correction?

    ReplyDelete
  144. Anonymous10:24 PM

    Keith says:
    Are you actually suggesting that The Nation knows more about the case than Patrick Fitzgerald?
    Considering that this was the first time Wilson surfaced, yes.

    I don't know if there exists a more glaring example of the exact thing we are talking about here. Either you are dilousional or you are just a plain liar/spinner. Thanks for helping us point it out so clearly.

    Gee, I've been called delusional today but not delousional. What-ev-eh. Whatever Fitzgerald considered her status, the reality is that there is no charge that the administration compromised it. None. If you have a problem with that you'll have to take it up with Fitz.

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  145. Anonymous10:33 PM

    keith says:
    "This is a very serious matter and compromising national security information is a very serious matter. But the need to get to the bottom of what happened and whether national security was compromised by inadvertence, by recklessness, by maliciousness is extremely important. We need to know the truth. And anyone who would go into a grand jury and lie, obstruct and impede the investigation has committed a serious crime."

    Unless of course if one leaks to the Times about the NSA or is Mary McCarthy.

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  146. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  147. Simon has put up an apology.

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous10:48 PM

    I take Glenn's point: Drudge's disingenuous use of sales "statistics" and the resulting bragging by POWERLINE, et al, reveals the tendency in the far-right to believe what they will, heedless of the facts, or at least of further investigation which might place the facts in a meaningful context. In short, they are impervious to reality insofar as it does not coincide with their pre-existing biases.

    I don't think this is limited to the right wing, of course, as any rational person must realize.

    But, what's revelatory about the insistence with which POWERLINE and others boast about the great sales (sic) of Reynolds' book and deride the poor sales (sic) of CTG is that these claims do not in the least consider the relative merits of the intellectual substance of either book. There is no discussion of content, merely a triumphalism about sales figures, (however ill-founded their beliefs about those figures). In short, like adolescents, they base their sense of identity, they invest their self-worth, in bragging about how "cool" they are, because the (band/book/movie/comic/etc.) THEY like is more popular than those things enjoyed by the "loser" kids, whom they scorn for their uncoolness.

    In short, the righties erroneously equate popularity with quality. Even assuming their boasts were correct, what does it prove? By definition, most people are of average looks, average intelligence, and average talents; those who are beautiful, brilliant, and gifted are always in the minority. Should we assume average people are BETTER than brilliant people, by virtue of their greater numbers? Should we congratulate ourselves for our acumen for liking Dr. Phil because his latest book outsells Samuel Beckett or William Gaddis or Thomas Bernhard?

    So, we see that, not only do the righties fudge or ignore facts to twist reality so as to conform with their worldview, they miss the point entirely, that what is popular is not necessarily correct and that what is unpopular is not necessarily wrong.

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  149. Anonymous11:05 PM

    Shooter, your insistence on the point that no one has been charged with "outing" a covert agent does not mean there is a legal opinion Plame was not covert. The law relating to the outing of covert agents requires that those doing the outing must KNOW the information they are revealing is classified, that the person whose status they are revealing was covert, in order for them to held criminally liable.

    Fitzgerald has specifically stated that he could not discern sufficiently whether Libby knew when he revealed Plame's identity that it was classified, due to the obfuscation he encountered in his investigation of the matter. In other words, he had not found clear evidence pointing to Libby's prior knowledge in this regard sufficient to bring charges. It does not mean Plame was not covert, only that Libby can't be shown to have known she was covert. Without evidence, you can't bring charges against even those guilty of the most egregious crimes.

    The idea that Wilson himself, with David Corn, "outed" his wife is a ludicrous right-wing meme, based solely on Wilson's having described his wife as "covert" in an interview with Corn. This was after Novak had already published her status as a CIA "operative." Given that the Wilson's closest friends, their neighbors, and their families, among all but a few others in the intelligence community, did not know she worked for the CIA, this simple revelation undid her "covert" status. There's no arguing around that.

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  150. Anonymous11:10 PM

    Focus shooter,

    "It certainly does. It proves that Plame's status is a non-issue, contradicting years of smears, lies, and leak allegations by the left."

    Thats what you said. You called it a non issue and when shown that it is THE issue you say What-ev-eh. You are right no charges have been filed for outing her. Thats not in despute. Thats because of purjury and obstruction. She was outed. Fact. Libby lied and obstructed the investigation into her outing. Why would he do that if Willson did it to his own wife? He would not as that is just right-wing fantacy. You seemed to have some intelligence at first. It seems in the end you are just as "delousional" (my spelling does suck, I know) as the rest of the 32%.

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  151. Anonymous11:15 PM

    Now is the time for a war mobilization by all of us whose contribution to the war effort is made with a keyboard instead of a rifle. Many of us having been saying for years that Iran is the ultimate enemy in the War on Terrorism—and now war with Iran is openly being considered and debated. This is the moment we have been waiting for. This is the time for us to make the case for war with Iran.Use whatever medium is open to you: blog entries, letters to the editor, phone calls, e-mails, and letters to your congressman and to the White House, one-on-one debates with friends and coworkers. Make the case that war with Iran is not just “thinkable”—it is mandatory. We need to attack Iran, not just to keep it from developing nuclear weapons, but to topple the largest remaining state sponsor of terrorism, and to discredit Islamic rule.

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  152. Anonymous11:33 PM

    Robert says:
    In other words, he had not found clear evidence pointing to Libby's prior knowledge in this regard sufficient to bring charges. It does not mean Plame was not covert, only that Libby can't be shown to have known she was covert.

    Which is all I've represented. You'd be surprised at how many people don't understand that much, and believe that the administration cared one way or the other about Plame's status other than she suggested her husband for the Niger trip.

    Given that the Wilson's closest friends, their neighbors, and their families, among all but a few others in the intelligence community, did not know she worked for the CIA, this simple revelation undid her "covert" status. There's no arguing around that.

    I suppose then that driving in and out of Langley didn't give anything away? Then there are the Russians and Cubans alerted by the Swiss...
    http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040722-115439-4033r.htm

    That little gem came up in a friend of the court brief put together by every major news organization in defense of Judith Miller. But it's not a matter of consequence at this point. Just an interesting historical footnote. Oh yeah one more....
    "In recent years, her life has been divided. Friends said she had worked as a volunteer counselor for postpartum depression while seeing to her "regular" job at the Central Intelligence Agency headquarters in Langley, Va."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/02/politics/02AGEN.html?8bl

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  153. shooter242:

    [Arne]: For the hard-of-thinking, I suppose not. But you might consider doing what was asked of you, and maybe listing, say, one or two items of what you like about the maladministration.

    Do you realize that you just made two insults? Explain to me again why I should engage someone that can't speak without using pejoratives? What-ev-eh.

    Ummmm, I didn't mention any names there. But look, if the shoe fits, feel free to wear it.

    "I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." -- Harry S Truman, 33rd President of the United States, 1884-1972

    Cheers,

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  154. Anonymous11:43 PM

    Hey shooter, you got any of those 'good points of the Bush administration' ready yet? I haven't got all day (that's not true -- I have the day off. Keep at it!)

    cynic librarian said:
    For Zizek, it's hypocritical Leftists who want to emphasize gender/race issues over the real issue of class who are the problem, not the "redneck" evangelical. Indeed, it's the latter whose rage and anger must be understood to truly understand what the real issues are.

    Interesting; I take it these views aren't necessarily your own, CL, but I'll just say that I don't think it's at all hypocritical for Leftists (or liberals, anyway) to address bigotry; while this focus might indeed bring out prejudice in reactionaries, liberals themselves can't be blamed for that, any more than, say, the Beatles can be blamed for Sharon Tate's murder.

    Meanwhile, I'm firmly with CL WRT the principles of good debate. While I think it's valid for Glenn to debunk bald-faced bullshit, extrapolating Drudge's mindset to all Bush supporters is... rhetorically unwise, you might say? A bit... intemperate? While the more vicious side of me greatly enjoys Glenn's hypotheses in regards to the delusions of Bush cultists, I can't ignore that it's a pointless exercise, even counterproductive at times.

    Glenn:
    One simply can't plonk labels and hypotheses of partisan insanity on Bush supporters alone, no matter how much it might, in fact, apply to them. Just look at that hollering anonymous post about bart upthread, with all the exclamation marks and LOL-ing... 'Jesus Christ', I think to myself, 'that idiot's on my side?' While opposition to Bush is a vague indication of common sense, there are plenty of fools who show no more rationality than wingnuts, and who do not oppose Bush on his (lack of) merits -- they just reflexively oppose him because he's not a very appealing person, and unfortunately, all that mindset accomplishes is the ascension of Ronald Reagan or Tony Blair instead of Bush and Cheney -- criminals with panache, instead of criminals without.

    It pains me to see an otherwise-delightfully smart fellow like yourself not account for this issue in your posts; although Hypatia seemingly still holds out hopes of you not being a liberal (and, shit, I dunno what you are either ;) when you 'lose your temper' in posts like these, it makes you look like the most disappointing kind of liberal, the kind who cannot see his side's own sins, and so indicts himself as he indicts his opponent.

    Yes, Glenn, Bush-cultists are invariably liars, or those who take comfort in lies -- given what a extraordinary failure his administration has been, that much is essentially a prerequisite by now -- but to speak of their kind of delusion as somehow unique to them is useless; these criticisms apply just as much to all those people whose opposition to Bush is merely instinctive, or otherwise shallow.
    So, what's not useless? What's the real difference between Bush's supporters and detractors? The facts. Glenn, you're at your very strongest when you're laying down the truth, but at your weakest when you deem partisan delusion as only worthy of note among Bush's cultists. In response to the truths you tell, the wingnuts have nothing to offer but more lies; but when you talk about rank hypocrisy and so on merely as 'hallmarks of Bush supporters' (to paraphrase), then you give them a rhetorical foothold, from which they can quite correctly reply that there are plenty of people as delusional as themselves among Bush's detractors. They need insults and one-eyed points of view to fuel their rhetoric, whereas the sword of Bush's opponents is the truth. So, please...

    "Just the facts, ma'am."

    (incidentally, I pre-ordered your book, yesterday. Awww yeah boyeee.)

    ReplyDelete
  155. Anonymous11:44 PM

    Keith says:
    Thats because of purjury (sic)and obstruction.

    Let me take this opportunity to say that if Fitz can make the case for obstructing justice, then Libby deserves what he gets.

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  156. Anonymous11:54 PM

    Thats nice schooter,

    Your still delusional though. Just can't let go of "everyone knew about Plame" can you.

    One last time:

    "Valerie Wilson's friends, neighbors, college classmates had no idea she had another life." Patrick Fitzgerald

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  157. Anonymous11:59 PM

    james t,

    I wish I was capable of writing the last three paragraphs of your post as clearly and concisely as you have done.

    Very well said.

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  158. Anonymous12:18 AM

    Amazon doesn't release its sales data. If people could correlate Amazon rankings with sales figures, then everyone could use Amazon's data for their own datamining. Amazon has no interest in letting this happen.

    When looking at this topic a few months ago, the most I could find (reference not on hand) was that...
    #30 = 100 books per day
    #100 = 10 books per day

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  159. Anonymous12:21 AM

    Shooter242 says:Which is all I've represented. You'd be surprised at how many people don't understand that much, and believe that the administration cared one way or the other about Plame's status other than she suggested her husband for the Niger trip."

    Of course they cared about her status...and they knew her status. It's arguable whether Libby knew when he revealed her identity and status that she was covert...I personally believe he did, but he may merely have been acting as Cheney's clueless tool...but there's no way Cheney would not have known her actual status. Their revelation of her identity served two purposes...the overt purpose was presumably to undercut Wilson's credibility, as if the mere fact that his wife was a CIA agent and had supposedly been connected with his having been sent to Niger (which has never been established, and which has been denied by the agency itself) rendered his findings suspect, a put up job, supposedly. I don't buy it. Except among the frothing right, her involvement, whether extensive, tangential, or nonexistent, in Wilson's assignment has no correlation with the credibility of his reporting of findings...except where such a correlation can be demonstrated and proven, which no one has done. The "connection" itself is presumed to invalidate Wilson's findings.

    Not.

    The second, more substantive purpose served was to punish Wilson for having the temerity to publicly contradict the President, to embarrass the President and to suggest his claims for war had been deceptive. On second thought, you're right, in one respect...the administration didn't care about Plame's status in and of itself...they were willing to sabotage her career and the work she was doing to lash out at Wilson...Plame herself was insignificant to the administration, but was useful only insofar as she could be destroyed to "get" Wilson.

    It's entirely in keeping with Team Bush's longstanding practices. They're like a Mafia family...they'll whack anyone who crosses them.

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  160. Anonymous12:39 AM

    James T writes to Glenn: although Hypatia seemingly still holds out hopes of you not being a liberal

    Uh, no. All I said was that I had never seen him identify himself that way. I have, however, observed him describe his ideological posture in comments here, and he didn't choose the word "liberal" as the label he most closely identifies with. Further, the name of the blog is "Unclaimed Territory." That seems about right to me.

    But I agree with much of the rest that you write. Glenn is fun to read, vastly so. But he has the hyperbole thing going on to an extreme. Further, I've never ratified the "Bush cult" meme, and in fact reject it. The more simple if less sexy explanation is that some people made a passionate commitment to Bush's foreign and national security policies, and it is very hard for human beings to admit error. Digging in and denying reality is, unfortunately, all too human. No Jonestown analogies are necessary to explain the phenomenon, which, as you note, is not ideology-specific.

    Btw, I commend Roger Simon for his apology to Kos. I strongly suspected we'd see that from him well before we would from Powerline. Powerline is hopelessly in the tank for their Leader and the movement he represents; no propaganda or deceit is too much for them.

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  161. shooter242:

    You'd be surprised at how many people don't understand that much, and believe that the administration cared one way or the other about Plame's status other than she suggested her husband for the Niger trip.

    I doubt it, given the apparent involvement of a half dozen folks in the maladministration cooking up the false nepotism charge and trying to slime Wilson in any way possible. They're pretty much as slimy and dishonest (if not outright vicious, as in Rove) as they come. And trashing anyone that gets in their way is their modus operandi.

    But even if we were to assume for purposes of argument that Plame's CIA status was not on their mind, the whole lot should be fired for incompetence, seeing as the documents about Plame had in BIG LETTERS: "SECRET!"?

    But shouldn't this have happened as soon as Dubya found out that they were involved in the leak, as he promised he'd do? Ot is Dubya just one of the biggest and most malignant liars and hypocrites in public office? Or it is that the Doofus-In-Chief just can't figureout how to fire himself.....

    Cheers,

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  162. robert1014:

    Except among the frothing right, her involvement, whether extensive, tangential, or nonexistent, in Wilson's assignment has no correlation with the credibility of his reporting of findings...

    Quite true. It's the fallacy of argumentum ad hominem. It may "work" in the political world (and that's the world that these people, particularly Rove, operate in), but it's harldy a valid argument in the intelligence world, which is where these people were suppoosed to be operating, at least while working on my dime.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  163. Anonymous1:39 AM

    hypatia said:
    Uh, no. All I said was that I had never seen him identify himself that way. I have, however, observed him describe his ideological posture in comments here, and he didn't choose the word "liberal" as the label he most closely identifies with. Further, the name of the blog is "Unclaimed Territory." That seems about right to me.

    Fair enough.

    With regards to the idea of 'Bush-cultism'... I must say, I can't begrudge Glenn that concept. I'm often taken aback at the way that the Bush flacks I've met have made Bush and/or the GOP the centre of their universe, with all the facts about WMDs and Saddam, FEMA, FISA, Rove, Abramoff and so on whirling and twisting about through incredible logical leaps and turnabouts, so that Bush miraculously comes up smelling of roses, all the time, every time. While we all harbour our little irrationalities about our ideologies, I'd literally never seen anyone contort their perceptions so desperately and slavishly as Bush's fans ('fans' as opposed to 'supporters'); so I can't resist characterising that madness as a 'cult of personality'. When the very politics of a large group of people are discarded in favour of the constant beatification of not even another ideology, but of one man... Well, one could claim that it happens all the time, but I've just never seen it occur so intensely and with such total cognitive dissonance. While Clinton surely inspired a similar phenomenon (albeit definitely not as broadly as is painted by the ol' RW echo chamber), I didn't get the sense of it being so extremely held by his supporters (for example, even those who -- quite reasonably -- believed that Clinton's adultery didn't matter a goddamn still acknowledged that it happened, and they wish he'd shown enough self-control to not do it. Look at Bush's AWOL story for a telling contrast.)
    , and besides, Clinton's admin did do a much better job -- by comparison at least -- so it required rather less doublethink to, well, toss rose-petals around his effigy or whatever. The cut-and-pasters and so on will say simply anything for Bush, and I think it's fair enough to label that a 'cult of personality', even if it's a bit more 'Sun Myung Moon' than it is 'Jim Jones' (no Kool Aid references intended).

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  164. Anonymous2:34 AM

    james t,

    I am still not sure if it is a cult of Bush or just hardcore supporters of the Republican party who have yet to see or admit that Bush has completely destroyed the party they love. I see much more worship of parties than individuals in our society.

    I am hoping we will have a chance to test this thesis before 2008. If the Democrats make large gains in November, Rove is indicted and Bush is around 20-25% approval, I believe the party will toss Bush overboard. It may only happen symbolically but the cues will be taken and we will find out if Bush, as a person, has any cult power at all.

    This could get very messy. Papa Bush is going to have a hell of a job breaking the news to Jr.

    ReplyDelete
  165. Anonymous2:44 AM

    Anonymous said...

    "Now is the time for a war mobilization by all of us whose contribution to the war effort is made with a keyboard instead of a rifle. Many of us having been saying for years that Iran is the ultimate enemy in the War on Terrorism—and now war with Iran is openly being considered and debated. This is the moment we have been waiting for."


    Get up and go look at the clock. You have obviously forgotten to take your meds again.

    ReplyDelete
  166. Anonymous2:52 AM

    What you're discussing here is a cult. Rovism is cultism. And "cult" is the root for "culture." The similarities between Rovism (I'll call it that, though it has been cultivated by an array of think tankers and Big Brains of the right), fundamentalism, Nazism are indeed their very culture. Deviation is punished by expulsion. An important feature of the cult is its requirement that participants believe in unbelievable things. It's the kool aid, and they want to drink it because it's their communion. And if you don't believe in Creationism--or in spacemen who created the human race (Scientology), or the breeding myths of Louis Farrakhan, or the secret homosexual agenda, or the diety of Haille Selassie (Rastafarianism) or the God-ordained mission of George Bush--then you are forever cast out. And because you convinced yourself that you believed that unbelievable myth in the first place, and because if you changed your mind it would mean everyone you depended on would now despise you--you won't do it without serious de-programming.

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  167. Anonymous3:10 AM

    What-ev-eh.

    Seriously, these people are very weak, intellectually and emotionally. This is true of the wingnuts that I know personally, some of whom are relatives. Hell, there are people who were actually inside the twin towers, and who lost loved ones, who somehow managed to hold onto their critical faculties.

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  168. Anonymous3:17 AM

    Michelle Malkin #1,172
    Glenn Reynolds #1049
    Hugh Hewitt #7,300

    ...

    The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster by Bobby Henderson #599

    Those are the numbers. Read 'em and weep.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Anonymous3:34 AM

    Be touched by His Noodly Appendage, Michelle Malkin! Be touuuuched!

    ReplyDelete
  170. Anonymous9:30 AM

    By shooter's 'logic' the anthrax letters of 2001 aren't a big deal and really a non-issue, I mean, no one has been charged with anything.....

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  171. Anonymous9:50 AM

    I wish I had read this first, before looking into some of the links to articles pooter cites to support his arguments about Plame's status as a NOC. He shoots and misses every time until he gets to this clown, a moonie and a Regnery hack Gertz at the Moonie Times. Amazon Reviewer on a Gertz POS Book:
    A reader
    I was lured into starting this book when, scanning rapidly, I mistook the author as a writer for the Washington Post rather than the Washington Times. That impression was quickly erased when I saw a dedication to the Rev. Sun Myung Moon and his wife on the acknowledgements page. The rest was all too predictable. I finished it out of morbid curiosity.
    Don't waste your time. Any truthful content that this book might contain is hopelessly obscured by the strident tone, reckless accusations, and obvious bias.


    Don't play with guns, pooter. You will shoot yourself, or like your hero Cheney, someone else in the face.

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  172. Anonymous3:30 PM

    I know I'm way, way too late for a dumb fight, but maybe I can clear a few things up.

    Pat -- now that you've backtracked on just about everything else, I'm curious who you talked to at Bookscan who told you they included Amazon sales figures.

    I ask because I'm the Publisher of Contemporary Press a little pulp concern out of Brooklyn. While we're a small indie, we DO have national distribution and access to Bookscan, Amazon, B&N, Borders and other sales information for our titles available to us online.

    I look at our sales a lot. And would more often, if we really sold that many copies (sigh...) to necessitate it. However, i can unequivocally report that there's almost no way that Bookscan includes Amazon figures -- and if they do, they're really screwing with every other publishing company going.

    First, again, I'm an actual publisher with access to these figures. Second, these figures listed separately (Amazon and Bookscan have separate figures for instance, and we add up our total sales by adding the respective columns together) and it would fuck up our accounting if they are counted twice. Third, Bookscan represents sales from non-chain (or small chain)bookstores not named Barnes and Noble, Borders or Amazon. Because, again, they keep their own records and distribute them seperately.

    So, I would hope that the person you talked to at Bookscan would actually know this. If not, the entire industry could be affected.

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  173. What amazes me even more than the dishonesty of the right is the belief on the left that we can convince card-carrying wingnuts like you of any point that doesn't find it's way into one of Ken Mehlman's blast-faxes.

    Golden.

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  174. Anonymous8:36 PM

    "So...CTG outselling Reynolds' book...even though Reynolds' book was released before CTG."

    Umm, maybe I missed something, but I can't see how this proves anything. Actually, the only thing I can see is that it would prove the opposite.

    If Reynolds' book came out first, it would lose sales over time, right? Therefore, the fact that it is older would suggest that its sales are going to be lower than CTG even assuming they have the same demand, simply as a result of being on different parts of the lifecycle.

    I know nothing of bookscan, but I don't see how you have proven that CTG, according to Drudge's own source, is doing better than Reynolds' book. A movie can make $100 million in one weekend and dissapear within a month. I know it isn't that dramatic for books, but who is to say, based on the evidence that you've given, that Reynolds' book didn't sell twice as many copies a month before your comparison?

    It seems to me you've jumped on an idea with as little thought as Drudge put into his bookscan article.

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  175. Anonymous4:09 AM

    According to Bookscan's About page they do include Amazon:
    http://www.bookscan.com/about.html

    "Most of the nation's major retailers for books are included in our panel of reporting book outlets: Borders and Walden, Barnes & Noble Inc., Barnes & Noble.com, Deseret Book Company, Hastings, Books-A-Million, Tower Music and Books, Follett College stores, Buy.com and Amazon.com. Weekly sales information is also tracked from Mass merchandisers like Target, Kmart and Costco, along with smaller retail chains and hundreds of general independent bookstores."

    I'm an anarchist and sympathetic to left/libs in case anyone wants to presume otherwise.

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  176. Anonymous4:09 PM

    Hah!
    Bush is still the U.S. president!
    Rove's not indicted!

    Hahah!

    ReplyDelete