Friday, December 23, 2005

The Bush justifications for law-breaking (con't)

My post yesterday requested that Bush defenders explain how there can be any limits at all on his power under the theories of Executive Power which they are advocating to argue that Bush had the right to violate Congressional law. Both ReddHedd at Firedoglake and Peter Daou at The Huffington Post joined in that request.

In response, there are two posts from Leon at Red State.org and two posts from Jeff Goldstein at Protein Wisdom, one of which largely relied on what Jeff reverently calls "a long and meticulously argued post" from John Hinderaker at Powerline. Leon also alerted me by e-mail to the issuance yesterday of a Memorandum from the Department of Justice (.pdf) which sets forth the Administration’s legal defense of its behavior.

This is my reply to all of that:

(1) There is not a single bit of authority in any of this for the absurd and dangerous proposition that the President has the right to violate a criminal law passed by Congress. Period. The Administration is trotting out lawyers to make legalistic arguments designed to cloud this extremely clear issue, but none of that can change the fact that Bush defenders are arguing that he has the right to enage in conduct which Congress made it a crime to engage in, and there is nothing in the law which gives a President that right. To the contrary, as one would expect, it has been repeatedly made clear that under our system of Government, the President does not possess the authoritarian right to engage in behavior which Congress expressly prohibits under the law.

Bush defenders are primarily relying upon cases which said that the Executive has authority inherently under the Constitution to order warrantless eavesdropping on Americans. But that is not the issue, and they have to know that. The issue is not whether the President has this authority to eavesdrop without a warrant but whether it is legal for him to do so in the face of a Congressional law which makes it a crime to engage in such conduct. And none of the authorities they cite conclude that the President has such a royal power. Not one.

Marty Lederman has a superb and crystal clear post on precisely this issue. Even if one assumes to be true the dubious proposition that the President possesses inherent constitutional authority to order warrantless surveillance on American citizens, that does not mean that it is legal for him to do so in violation of a criminal statute enacted by Congress. But that is what Bush did here, and there is just nothing which even arguably gives that behavior the color of legality. That’s because we live under the rule of law where not even Presidents are bestowed with the right to engage in conduct which Congressional criminal law expressly prohibits.

(2) The Supreme Court has already addressed this issue fully and completely, in the case of Youngstown Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U.S. 579 (1952) -- a case that I have yet to hear a single Bush defender even acknowledge. And understandably so, since that case expressly said that the President does not have the right to exercise his "inherent executive authority" in contravention of Congressional law.

Anyone who wants to see just how clear the legal issues really are here -- just how plain it is that, as most people likely know intuitively, the President does not have the right to engage in conduct which the Congress prohibits under the criminal law -- should read the Supreme Court’s opinion in Youngstown. It is a clear, straightforward, and easy to understand opinion because the Justices evidently realized that they were articulating the basic principles of how the rule of law -- rather than Executive lawlessness -- is what governs our country and keeps it stable and just. And it literally obliterates every argument head-on which is being advanced now by Bush defenders who are trying to bestow him with the power of law-breaking.

The facts are simple. During the Korean War, American steel workers decided they would go on a nationwide strike, which President Truman believed (accurately) would result in a steel shortage that would seriously impede U.S. national security. To avert that problem, Truman wanted to use the force of the Federal Government to seize the steel factories and use them to continue to produce steel. Truman had previously asked Congress to enact legislation giving him this seizure power, but Congress refused, instead enacting legislation that gave the President some new powers to deal with such problems, but it refused to include the power of seizure.

Unlike George Bush – who simply violates laws in secret that he does not think he should have to comply with – the Truman Administration argued its position in the Federal courts and asked the Supreme Court to rule that he had the "inherent authority" under the Constitution to seize the steel factories despite the fact that the Congress did not want him to do so and thus refused to give him this power.

The Supreme Court said that even though the President may have a claim to some "inherent authority" to seize these factories, once Congress has enacted laws making clear that he cannot do so, the President under our system of Government does not have the right to act outside of the law by violating Congress’ intent. In so ruling, the Court said that the where Congress has the power to legislate in a certain area (as it plainly does with regard to regulating eavesdropping on American citizens), the President is no more permitted to violate that law than anyone else is, even if he claims that doing so is necessary for him to carry out his Executive duties to protect the nation. It really does not get any clearer or more dispositive than this.

I have excerpted the relevant portions of the opinion in the post below, and the rationale of the Court is breathtaking in how applicable it is to the current Presidential law-breaking scandal. It literally takes every argument which is being advanced by the President’s defenders now and rejects them as the by-products of unconstitutional lawlessness which they so plainly are.

The particular excerpts in the post below are highly worth reading, but Justice Jackson’s summary in his Concurring Opinion of the fundamental principle of the rule of law is particularly compelling and important here:

The essence of our free Government is "leave to live by no man's leave, underneath the law" - to be governed by those impersonal forces which we call law. Our Government [343 U.S. 579, 655] is fashioned to fulfill this concept so far as humanly possible. The Executive, except for recommendation and veto, has no legislative power. The executive action we have here originates in the individual will of the President and represents an exercise of authority without law.

No one, perhaps not even the President, knows the limits of the power he may seek to exert in this instance and the parties affected cannot learn the limit of their rights. We do not know today what powers over labor or property would be claimed to flow from Government possession if we should legalize it, what rights to compensation would be claimed or recognized, or on what contingency it would end. With all its defects, delays and inconveniences, men have discovered no technique for long preserving free government except that the Executive be under the law, and that the law be made by parliamentary deliberations.

No principle emerges more clearly from the Constitution, all other founding documents, and the Federalist Papers than the principle that the people, through their Congress, make the law and nobody, including the President, is above it or has the right to violate it. Pro-Bush lawyers can write endless justifications from now until he leaves office, and that principle will still, by itself, resolve all of the issues relating to the Bush Administration’s eavesdropping in violation of the criminal law.

(3) As I have noted before, the Supreme Court, in the 1972 case of United States v. United States District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan et al, 407 U.S. 297 (1972), rejected the Nixon Administration’s claim that it had the authority to eavesdrop on American citizens without a warrant in order to investigate dangerous terrorist groups, and concluded that the Fourth Amendment protects American citizens against exactly such intrusions. Bush defenders object that this case involved the Government’s investigation of domestic terrorist groups, not international terrorist groups like Al Qaeda, and they therefore assert that this case is irrelevant to the current scandal, because it involves international, not domestic, terrorist groups.

But that is not how legal reasoning - or basic logic - works. Merely finding a difference between the case which led to a judicial decision and the current situation does not mean that the reasoning of the judicial decision can be ignored. The difference has to be a meaningful one – it has to be a difference that one can show would prevent the reasoning used in the court case from applying to the present situation.

No Bush defender attempts to do that when shooing away this Supreme Court case which held that the Fourth Amendment bars the Federal Government from eavesdropping on the communications of American citizens. "Oh, this is obviously different," they say, "because here we are talking about international terrorist groups, not domestic ones like were involved there."

So what? It can hardly be said that these Fourth Amendment proections disappear because the Government happens to be investigating an international terrorist group rather than a domestic terrorist group. Domestic terrorists can inflict harm to the country as grave as international terrorists can. Timothy McVeigh blew up a federal courthouse and slaughtered hundreds of Americans. The U.S. has a history of facing down dangerous subversive domestic groups. Domestic terrorist groups can do every bit as much damage to the U.S. as international terrorist groups can. Their bombs blow things up just as effectively. And they are arguably more dangerous, not less, because, by definition, they wield the obvious advantage of working from within the country and being able to blend into its population and institutions.

The focus of the Supreme Court's opinion is on the rights of U.S. citizens to be free of warrantless monitoring and invasion by their Government under the Fourth Amendment. How can it possibly be said that we give up that right just because the Government is investigating a foreign group rather than a domestic group? That makes no sense. The Court held that the crux of the Fourth Amendment is that the Government is barred from eavesdropping on American citizens without prior judicial approval. To breezily wave away that holding of the Supreme Court simply because the Government there was investigating a domestic group rather than an international group -- without even pretending to explain why that matters -- is intellectual dishonesty of the worst sort.

(4) Yesterday's Department of Justice Memorandum claims that the President complied with FISA because FISA specifically allows the Government to eavesdrop in contravention of its provisions as long as Congress enacts a new law allowing the Government to do so. And Congress did exactly that, claims the DoJ, when it authorized the Administration to use force in Afghanistan and against Al Qaeda, because that law ("AUMF") – which everyone quite obviously thought at the time was about whether the U.S. could invade Afghanistan and use military force to stop Al Qaeda, not whether the Government could eavesdrop on American citizens at home in violation of FISA – implicitly (i.e., without any saying or realizing it) allowed the Administration to eavesdrop on American citizens without obtaining the judicial approval required by FISA.

That is not even a serious argument, and the fact that the Administration is touting it shows its contempt for the rule of law. Every fact demonstrates that the Congress did not intend to give authority to the President to violate FISA when enacting that resolution, and did not believe it was doing it.

First, at the same time that the AUMF was enacted, the Patriot Act was also enacted, a primary purpose of which was to liberalize FISA with regard to the use of electronic surveillance. The assumption of liberalizing FISA was obviously that it would be the framework for the Governments’ eavesdropping. If Congress were giving the Administration authority under the AUMF to eavesdrop outside of FISA, nobody would have needed the Patriot Act to liberalize FISA standards. That the Congress bothered to alter FISA standards under the Patriot Act illustrates how insultingly frivolous it is to claim that Congress intended to authorize the President to eavesdrop outside of FISA.

Secondly, it was revealed yesterday that when the AUMF was being drafted, the Administration wanted Congress to grant it the authority to use its war powers inside the U.S., and Congress refused to give that authority. For the Administration to now claim that it had the authority from Congress which Congress actually expressly refused to give it is about as dishonest as it gets. As Justice Frankfurter said in his Concurring Opinion in Youngstown:

It is one thing to draw an intention of Congress from general language and to say that Congress would have explicitly written what is inferred, where Congress has not addressed itself to a specific situation. It is quite impossible, however, when Congress did specifically address itself to a problem, as Congress did to that of seizure, to find secreted in the interstices of legislation the very grant of power which Congress consciously withheld. To find authority so explicitly withheld is not merely to disregard in a particular instance the clear will of Congress. It is to disrespect the whole legislative process and the constitutional division of authority between President and Congress.

Finally, not a single Senator has said that they discussed at the time that the AUMF was enacted that they were giving the President an exemption from FISA, and scores of Senators have said that this is the opposite of what they understood they were doing when they enacted AUMF. On its face, that law allows the President to use military force against Afghanistan and Al Qaeda, and does not "amend" FISA to allow the President to eavesdrop on American citizens without bothering to comply with it.

(5) Even if the President believes that a particular Congressional law is invalid because it seeks to regulate an area which the President should control, this does not mean that the President is justified in secretly breaking that law because he decided he does not need to abide by it.

If the President really believed that the Executive has full constitutional power in the area of surveillance on American citizens and that Congress has no power, he could have gone to a Federal Court and asked it to declare FISA unconstitutional on the ground that it usurps executive authority, or he could have publicly declared his right to violate FISA – just as Harry Truman did when he wanted to seize the steel factories and thus allowed the federal courts to rule on its legality. Bush did not do that. Instead, he just broke the law, hoped nobody would find out, and even tried to prevent newspapers from reporting it when they did find out.

Constitutional disputes are for the judiciary to resolve, and they resolve these sorts of separation-of-power issue all the time. If the President decides that a law is unconstitutional, the solution is to seek a judicial declaration that this is the case – not to secretly break the law, and then, when he is caught, claim that he was allowed to break the law because it’s not a valid law anyway. That is what criminals do who break the law -- they secretly break the law, try not to get caught, get caught, and then hire lawyers to find a way to keep them out of jail. Lawyers then argue that the law is unconstitutional and the defendant therefore can’t be punished even if he broke the law.

Lawyers can find arguments for anything. If a President can secretly violate the law and do so with impunity – as long as he can get some lawyers somewhere to come up with a retroactive legalistic justification in order to give the appearance that there is at least a "legal dispute" over this authority – then the rule of law really does not exist. Lawyers can always create legal disputes, literally with regard to anything.

The self-evident strategy of the Bush defenders is to cloud the extremely clear fact of Bush’s illegal conduct with so many legalistic justifications that people will throw up their hands and decided that this is nothing more than an esoteric lawyer game, not a serious threat to the founding principles of the nation and to the rule of law. But the principle that the President does not have the right to engage in conduct which the Congress prohibits under our criminal laws is one that is as clear as it is critical to our system of government, and it is urgent that this clarity be maintained and the rule of law enforced.

60 comments:

  1. Anonymous11:55 AM

    I'm not usually interested in legal arguments. But you make this so clear and easy to follow that it stays interesting. And you convey how truly important it is. Thank you for your excellent work on this, Glenn.

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  2. Anonymous12:23 PM

    Just superb. Please keep it up. This is very needed.

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  3. Anonymous1:20 PM

    You are arguing against Bush, but your link in this sentence -- "Marty Lederman has a superb and crystal clear post on precisely this issue." -- takes me to http://powerlineblog.com/archives/012631.php, and the author of the article is John Hinderaker, not Marty Lederman as you indicated.

    John seems to be arguing quite clearly in defense of Bush, so . . . er, just how confused am I?

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  4. Anonymous1:27 PM

    David Miranda writes: The law said no eavesdropping without a warrant. Bush eavesdropped, on Americans, without a warrant. He broke the law. And now they are trying to say he had the right to do that.

    It is very clear.


    Actually, it is murky, to use Orin Kerr's word. And that is certainly how I recall discussion of a president's "inherent authority" when I studied the Youngstown case in con law many moons ago.

    There is a reason that liberal law professors like Cass Sunstein and non-ideologues such as professor and federal appellate Judge Richard Posner see an argument that what Bush has done is, in fact, legal. (I assure you, these men are entirely aware of the Youngstown case, as they teach it.)Glenn is an extraordinarily capable advocate, but he wants a particular view of Separation of Powers and checks and balances to prevail, and I strongly tend to agree with him -- what he so clearly advocates is not, however, the end of the discussion. Those who disagree would not be left speechless and without colorable responses.

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  5. There is a reason that liberal law professors like Cass Sunstein and non-ideologues such as professor and federal appellate Judge Richard Posner see an argument that what Bush has done is, in fact, legal.

    Actually, Richard Posner did not make an argument that what Bush did was legal. He skipped over that part and just said that the Government SHOULD be collecting all this data and more without acknowledging that there's a law which makes it criminal to do that.

    And if Youngstown is so unclear, I'd love to hear someone explain why that is. If I wanted to invent a Supreme Court opinion to show that Bush acted illegally, it would be Youngstown.

    Lots of law professors and judges love to go around "wrestling" and "grappling" with clear issues because it shows how thoughtful and intellectual they are. Lawyers are trained to argue two sides (at least) to every issue, including issues that have only one real side to them.

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  6. I fixed the Marty Lederman link - thanks.

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  7. Anonymous1:39 PM

    I opened that link in a new window, got the powerlineblog.com, and noticed that my back button was NOT greyed out, as it should have been. When I clicked on it, it said: simg.zedo.com/3interactive/tag/3

    There's no one named Marty Lederman at powerlingblog.com, btw.

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  8. The Marty Lederman link is working on my computer, but if it's not on yours, here it is.

    And, here again:

    http://balkin.blogspot.com/2005/12/inherent-authority-to-violate-federal.html

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  9. Anonymous2:02 PM

    Oh no, you responded way too fast, I didn't think you would see my comment for days!

    Btw, your article was the clearly written one, no offence to Marty.

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  10. Anonymous2:05 PM

    Glenn: It is true that Posner did not explicitly declare that the NSA surveillance program as constituted is legal; he really can't, not as a sitting federal appellate judge. But his entire argument suggests how Bush and his DoJ would fit the program into the narrow window that Jackson seemed to leave open in Youngstown.

    Posner wrote: These programs are criticized as grave threats to civil liberties. They are not. Their significance is in flagging the existence of gaps in our defenses against terrorism.

    "Gaps in our fight against terroism" is just the sort of thing that would fit plausibly into "inherent authority" that is at its lowest ebb.

    And sure, law professors love to engage in abstract yammering about much. But it simply is true that this issue of Executive v. Congressional authority in the national security context was taught to me, some 15 years ago, as an unsettled area of law. (And I just read that my GOP Con Law prof offered merely a "tepid" defense of Bush on NPR.) Indeed, you wouldn't see so many very bright legal minds on the Internet waxing all tentative and puzzled if things were as straightforward as you masterfully depict them.

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  11. Indeed, you wouldn't see so many very bright legal minds on the Internet waxing all tentative and puzzled if things were as straightforward as you masterfully depict them.
    Check out this strong dose of doublespeak from Charles Krauthammer:
    I also believe that as a matter of political prudence and comity with Congress, Bush should have tried to get the law changed rather than circumvent it. This was an error of political judgment. But that does not make it a crime.

    Circumventing the law is not a crime, according to Krauthammer. There it is, right in your face. The President does not have to follow the law by definition. That is what they are arguing.
    Didn’t pay your taxes? Not a crime – you are only circumventing the tax code.
    Driving without a license? Not a crime – you are only circumventing traffic law.
    Kill someone? Not a crime – you are only circumventing the law.

    The point? Sometimes the other side is full of shit, no matter how bright they are or how well regarded. Accept it. Don’t give them an undeserved level of credibility simply because they are making an argument.

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  12. I'm not in any way supporting Bush, but your reading of Youngstown is invalid. The case does NOT admit the "inherent authority" of the Preident to do seize the steel mills; in fact, the case drips with sarcasm about claims that he does. ("While it is not surprising that counsel should grasp support from such unadjudicated claims of power, a judge cannot accept self-serving press statements of the attorney for one of the interested parties as authority in answering a constitutional question, even if the advocate was himself.") So this is not a case about Congress prohibiting the President from doing something he has the inherent authority to do.

    The third holding of the case (admittedly the editors synopsis and not the court's, but it's an accurate one), reads, "(c) Authority of the President to issue such an order in the circumstances of this case cannot be implied from the aggregate of his powers under Article II of the Constitution. Pp. 587-589.

    Now Bush might argue in court that he has such powers, but just because he says it does not make it so. This is pretty much the same argument that Reagan made for bypassing Congress in Iran-contra. It's the argument of first resort for a Presidential lawbreaker, but so what? I am frankly surprised that we are even ceding this question to Bush. If he has inherent authority to order warrantless wiretaps--as opposed to authority tpo do so granted by Congress--we're in deep shit.

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  13. If you ask a Law Professor what day of the week it is, they will scrunch of their face and say that it is "murky" and give you 10 answers. It is just what they are programmed to do. It is meaningless.

    Virtually every criminal had a lawyer arguing that he did nothing wrong. That's what lawyers do. The fact that there are lawyers on both sides of the issue is supposed to show that there is nothing clear about any of this. There are lawyers on both sides of EVERY issue. That, too, is meaningless.

    Anyone can read FISA and see that it makes it a crime to do what Bush did. That is just fact. The only question then is whether the President has the right to SECRETY VIOLATE criminal laws. That is the only real question, and I don't care how many law professors slowly rub their bears and pull their hair out trying to show how nuanced and careful they are. The answer in the United States is clear and it is that nobody can violate the criminal law, including George Bush.

    If he thought the law was invalid, he could have asked a court to say that. That's what Harry Truman did (and lost and then abided by the court ruling). But Bush broke the law over and over SECRETLY, and now that he got caught, he has lawyers, like every criminal does, to say that he did nothing wrong.

    That hardly proves that he did nothing wrong.

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  14. Anonymous3:14 PM

    Just to clarify my own position, I see that there is merely a plausible argument that what Bush has done is legal, and it seems my former Con Law prof -- an arch-conservative fellow -- can muster only that as well. USA Today reports:

    Pepperdine University law Professor Douglas Kmiec said Bush's use of the congressional authorization "is plausible" and his power to respond to an emergency shouldn't be superseded by laws limiting intelligence gathering.

    (Kmiec was not at Pepperdine when he taught me.)

    All I'm saying is that per Justice Jackson's Category III analysis in Youngstown, a very high bar was raised for Bush or any President, via invocation of Article II inherent authority, to act in contravention of a congressional statute. But it was not an absolute bar. Any Bush argument that he falls within the narrow window of Category III would likely fail, but not necessarily, especially depending on how any SCOTUS hearing it would be constituted.

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  15. Anonymous3:18 PM

    All I have to say is in the words of the prophetically petulant Kanye West "George Bush doesn't care about Black People." Arrest the President. G Double. Hit me, Peace. Will

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  16. The case does NOT admit the "inherent authority" of the Preident to do seize the steel mills; in fact, the case drips with sarcasm about claims that he does.

    Sorry, but that is ludicrous. If Truman had no inherent authority to seize the factories, there would have been no need for the entire opinion because that would have settled the question.

    The entire opinion addresses one issue: where the President DOES have inherent constitutional authority to act but Congress enacts a law making clear that he can't, can the President do it anyway?

    That's the same question here , and the answer should be the same (although I belive the 4A bars such warrantless surveillance on US citizens).

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  17. But it was not an absolute bar. Any Bush argument that he falls within the narrow window of Category III would likely fail, but not necessarily, especially depending on how any SCOTUS hearing it would be constituted.

    It IS an absoulte bar when Congress passes a law in an area it has the authority to regulate, and that is exactly what Justice Jackson said in his opinion - twice. See my comment to the post below.

    You're quoting conservative law professors. If Bush molested 5 year-old girls on television, they would find legal theories that they would say were "plausible" to defend him.

    The law isn't determined by a straw vote of law professors.

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  18. Anonymous3:23 PM

    First, I'm no pro-Bush lawyer. Quite the contrary.

    Second, I think what Bush did and is doing (warrantless wiretaps) is plainly unconstitutional, and the argument by Sunstein and others to the contrary makes no sense. (If the power to wiretap domestically without restriction flows from the power to make war, where does that power end?)

    But just accepting Glenn's premise, arguendo, that the president DOES have constitutional authority to do this, wouldn't that trump a criminal statute? Wouldn't, in other words, the statute itself (as applied to the president) exceed Congress' power to legislate under the Constitution, and therefore be unconstitutional itself?

    Again, I don't think this is consequential, because it seems to obvious to me that the president does not have the claimed constitutional authority (and if he did the 4th Amendment would be shredded, among other things). I'm just asking.

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  19. Again, I don't think this is consequential, because it seems to obvious to me that the president does not have the claimed constitutional authority (and if he did the 4th Amendment would be shredded, among other things). I'm just asking.

    It's a good question (and by the way, I do NOT believe Bush has inherent authority to wiretap us all without a warrant - I'm just assuming that for the argument).

    The President can have inherent authority to act in certain areas IN THE ABSENCE OF criminal statutes prohibiting that conduct. Once Congress makes it a crime to do it, he no longer can. There are all sorts of areas where the branches have overlapping authority, but what Youngstown says is that as long as Congress CAN legislate in that area, the President is bound by the law like all the rest of us.

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  20. Anonymous3:30 PM

    If he thought the law was invalid, he could have asked a court to say that. That's what Harry Truman did (and lost and then abided by the court ruling). But Bush broke the law over and over SECRETLY,

    And my understanding is that he received ratification from the "secret" FIS Court, which bought into the inherent authority argument. Am I wrong about that?

    I distinctly recall this area of law being presented as much less clear and settled than virtually any other in Con Law, and I can now see why. Youngstown is strong authority, but not a slam dunk, for the proposition that Bush lacked authority to flout FISA. The circumstances under which a President may contravene Congress per his "inherent authority" are now known not to apply to seizing industries during a war abroad, when Congress has said no. But what, if any, other circumstances could arguably permit such a contravention are, to my mind, indeed murky, and Youngstown does not fully tell us.

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  21. Anonymous3:37 PM

    Thank you so much for your clear and consise analysis.

    I would only add to the discussion, that the Bush defender's argument rest on one assumed fact: That the NSA surveillance was only done on International calls. We only have the administration's word for this. There is really no way of knowing exactly who was spied upon. That is where the court comes in. The whole purpose of the FISA court is to make sure that only genuinely suspects are being spied upon, and to prevent abuse. We have no way of knowing if that happened, yet, the administration argues: trust us!

    Lastly, there is a great difference between the inherent power of the president to prevent attacks on the United States that threaten National Security, and, "simple terroist attacks".

    While tragic, 9-11 did not threaten national security! All parts of the government were still functioning, and there was, and is, no serious threat to the sovereignty of the US.

    While Al-Queda can do damage and potentially affect some areas of the government, it is a false presumption, that this "war on terror" in any way is a threat against the national security of the United States!

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  22. Anonymous3:51 PM

    Krauthammer is giving in to the soft bigotry of low expectations for his President once again. We know Bush needs help, but doesn't Krauthammer expect a bit more from the presidency? Or is that just from Democrats?

    And is the DOJ really relying on AssRocket to sell their legal arguments? Where is John Yoo in all this? He's a young man, and his life's work is getting shot to pieces.

    If he is involved in Justice's responses so far, he is truly incompetent.

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  23. Anonymous3:54 PM

    So what is the recourse? Can any of Bush's actions be challenged in court? By whom?

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  24. Anonymous4:06 PM

    I greatly appreciate your clear summary of the legal issues surrounding this dispute. I wonder if you could clarify another legal issue that has been puzzling me for the last several days. It is a reasonable speculation based on the administration’s comments in the media that the NSA program involves some sort of data mining, in which all electronic traffic between the US and abroad is scanned for certain key words and phrases that might be associated with terrorist activity, and then whatever pops out of this initial scan is examined by an NSA supervisor to determine if further monitoring is warranted. Under the law, would this be considered as the wiretapping of all messages between the US and abroad, or only the ones that are selected for further action?

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  25. Anonymous4:28 PM

    I really can't add anything to this besides a thanks, and my belief that it is AUMF and not AMUF. I did a google the other day for AUMF and found many interesting posts about that. I would hope in the future that people will find your post too by searching for AUMF.

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  26. Anonymous4:58 PM

    Wonderful post, very clearly argued. I don't have anything to add, except that I found this typo, "I don't care how many law professors slowly rub their bears..." very amusing.

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  27. Anonymous5:19 PM

    Glenn: Nice post! I'll post a link on my site, the neoprogblog, as well.

    **********

    absurd and dangerous proposition that the President has the right to violate a criminal law passed by Congress.

    ...that the law be made by parliamentary deliberations

    The President's defenders are pretending this is a conflict between the President and Congress, and that in times of war, the President's authority prevails. The language I quoted above inadvertantly supports that false distinction by saying, basically, that the President is subject to Congress' laws.

    This misses an important point: that the laws passed by Congress are also signed by the then-President. In other words, the laws that Bush violated represent a prior agreement between the Congress and the Executive that they are right and good; the President (in the form of his predecessors) has already agreed to be subject to them.

    This makes the "Congress vs. Executive" distinction false and misleading. Bush violated laws that both branches enacted. That makes his actions inexcusable, even under the Constitution.

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  28. Anonymous5:28 PM

    Mr. Greenwald:

    The President does have inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless surveillance in foreign intelligence matters, that is really fairly well settled law, and it is not seriously thought that the Supreme Court will change that principle.

    A reasonable question is what is the extent of that power. Bush does not claim it is unlimited, he has already personally and publicly rejected that idea. As with most constitutional matters, the extent and boundaries of this power will likely someday be defined by a Supreme Court case directly on this point. As of this date the Supreme Court has not defined any limits on the power, but that is not an argument for the proposition the power doesn't exist.

    I suspect that the Supreme Court will someday give a framework of a definition for an applicable balancing test when balancing the President's inherent authority to conduct these searches against other constitutional rights. The Supreme court has done this kind of thing many times as you are aware in the special exigent circumstances line of cases where the Supreme Court has ruled there are numerous kinds of warrantless searches and seizures allowed. No doubt someday the Supreme Court will decide a case that begins to show the balancing of the President's inherent authrotity against other constitutional rights.

    Your most recent commentary continues to err in its use and reliance upon criminal and purely domestic security matter warrant cases. It is clear that foreign intelligence surveillance has always been treated by the Supreme Court and Appellate Courts as a separate area of the law where criminal law precedents do not apply. This is also your error in relying on Youngstown. Youngstown does NOT involve a Presidential action necessary to protect the USA from an attack by a foreign enemy, and is in large part quite distinguishable.

    It is a valid question for you to inquire of the legality of a President ignoring a criminal law. It is not completely settled that the President's actions even on their face violated any criminal law for several reasons, but for sake of this post I'll assume they do.

    The fact that we assume the action on its face violated a criminal prohibition, is not the end of necessary inquiries. You are wrong when you assert that its impossible for Congress to pass a criminal law that the President is free to ignore. Congress can not by its laws encroach upon the constitutional powers of the President. For example, congress could not inquire into or regulate President Clinton's use of the pardon power, even though there was substantial evidence that the President had engaged in the sale of pardons for pecuniary gain. If congress passed a criminal prohibition against granting pardons except via a congressionally enacted procedure, surely you agree the President could ignore that law and if asked the Supreme Court would reject it as unconstitutional. The same would apply say to the President's power as commander in chief. If Congress passed a law that made it criminal for the President to exercise his powers as Commander In Chief and instead purported to place those powers in someone else, surely you would agree the President was free to ignore such a law.

    Therefore, to make the blanket statement that the President can not ignore a criminal statute is obviously in error. The question is does the President's inherent constitutional authority in foreign intelligence surveillance an exclusive power of the President or a power that is jointly exercised by Congress and the President. So far the answer to that question appears to be that it is the Sole power of the President, and Congress may not encroach upon it. The Supreme court hasn't said that, but the lower courts have implied it, and stated it outright in the most recent case.

    The bottom line is that absent a FUTURE Supreme Court decision on directly on these matters, the President has substantial authority to believe his actions are lawful, proper, and constitutional. Unless and until the Supreme Court rules otherwise the President's actions may continue unabated.

    Gary

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  29. Anonymous5:32 PM

    First, I don't know whether the President has authority to operate wiretaps, implicit in the Constitution. I rather doubt it, and I won't like it much if it turns out that he does. I do know however that YOUNGSTOWN CO. v. SAWYER has little if any bearing on this specific issue, because of what is not addressed. In a nutshell, the case decided that the President as Commander in Chief cannot sieze private property as an exercize of his military power, and noted that Congress may regulate by law the means by which power is exercized.

    Clearly Greenwald is mistaken when he claims that Younstown settles it, because the decision specifically excluded all situations relevant to war powers, and national security related to them, and because the decision does not in any fashion attempt to determine whether the President had constitutional authority.

    In fact, the deliberations concerned the expressed and implied intent of the laws passed by Congress.

    In my opinion, for our purposes these are the two most significant statements in the opinion, which define both sides of the issue:

    "The duty of the President to see that the laws be executed is a duty that does not go beyond the laws or require him to achieve more than Congress sees fit to leave within his power." Myers v. United States

    and

    "In short, a systematic, unbroken, executive practice, long pursued to the knowledge of the Congress and never before questioned, engaged in by Presidents who have also sworn to uphold the Constitution, making as it were such exercise of power part [343 U.S. 579, 611] of the structure of our government, may be treated as a gloss on "executive Power" vested in the President by 1 of Art. II."

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  30. Anonymous5:50 PM

    Glenn, I did read your quotes of Jackson, and the concurrence itself. Your quotes:


    "When the President takes measures incompatible with the expressed or implied will of Congress, his power is at its lowest ebb, [not non-existent -- ed.] for then he can rely only upon his own constitutional powers minus any constitutional powers of Congress over the matter. Courts can sustain exclusive presidential control in such a case only by disabling [343 U.S. 579, 638] the Congress from acting upon the subject. 4 Presidential claim to a power at once so conclusive and preclusive must be scrutinized with caution, for what is at stake is the equilibrium established by our constitutional system. . . .

    This leaves the current seizure to be justified only by the severe tests under the third grouping, where it can be supported only by any remainder of executive power after subtraction of such powers as Congress may have over the subject. In short, we can sustain the President only by holding that seizure of such strike-bound industries is within his domain and beyond control by Congress.


    Jackson is not saying that the President's inherent authority is always extinguished when Congress has sought to "occupy the field" in an area where it is authorized to legislate. Jackson says a: Presidential claim to a power at once so conclusive and preclusive must be scrutinized with caution; not that the President never can be sustained in such a claim.

    Jackson did not find that low ebb of authority sufficient in the area of labor relations and seizing private property, areas in which Congress did and could legislate. But he did not totally foreclose some possible circumstances in which a presidential claim of authority to violate the express or implied will of Congress might not be sustained.

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  31. Anonymous6:52 PM

    This is how Marty Lederman discussed a part of John Robert's confirmation hearings testimony:

    Thankfully, Judge Roberts has testified that the torture question falls within Category III of Justice Jackson's justly famous Youngstown concurrence -- that is, it's a case in which Congress has spoken clearly and has prohibited certain presidential action pursuant to the legislature's express article I authorities, and thus the President's power is "at its lowest ebb." [not no ebb - ed. Hypatia]....Unfortunately, Judge Roberts did not go so far as to say that the torture statute is actually constitutional even when it restricts the President from using the techniques that he thinks are most effective in defeating the enemy.

    So, I don't think I'm alone in my reading of Jackson's Category III analysis as being less than an absolute bar to a president's contravening a congressional statute.

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  32. Anonymous9:46 PM

    Cap Hill Blue? Neo Prog Blog? I must say, interesting sources of information being quoted here, might as well break out the Von Daniken books and all the info on conspiracy theories and everyone knows it was dubyah on the grassy knoll! Jeez!

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  33. Anonymous10:13 PM

    Glenn,

    Thanks again for another EXCELLENT post. You are most vigilant in trying to stave off attacks on our civil liberties by the Bush Administration.

    I'M NO LAWYER, so my interpretations that I am about to give may be seriously in error. If so, one of the lawyers here can simply let me know.

    Bush justifies his use of warrantless wiretaps by claiming that Congress gave him the authority to use "necessary and appropriate force" against terrorists. Let me share some of my thoughts about the words, "force" and "appropriate."

    Consistent with what Glenn has written about Congressional intent at the time the claimed authority was given, "force" would seem to entail strictly military force. Activities that facilitate the use of such force are themselves not "force": the work being conducted at an armaments factory is not "force" being used against an enemy. Likewise, the gathering of information through spying is also not "force." Spies generally are not assumed to be members of the military.

    But the word that I primarily want to focus on is "appropriate." I do not see how it can be "appropriate" for Bush and company to bypass a civil liberty safeguard established by Congress, (namely, the FISA court) to engage in warrantless eavesdropping, when it is so easy to obtain a FISA court order for such spying. The court even offers retroactive court orders, provided that they are requested within three days (72 hours) after the eavesdropping. Moreover, the FISA court has been most accomodating, rejecting less than 1 court order application out of every 10,000.

    I recall reading that at times the Bush spies don't like to have to write down on their applications for court orders the reasons why they wish to eavesdrop. If this is indeed the case, it would be somewhat alarming.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anonymous10:40 PM

    Good post. The other point not to overlook is that to the extent people try to justify Bush's actions (either explicitly or implicitly) because we're "at war," the point is, were not. Or we're not at war in any traditionally recognizable sense, i.e. not in a "war" that will end in our lifetimes, necessarily. As you have pointed out in your Neurosis as National Character post, militant Islamic fundamentalism is a real problem, but it's far from the only one this country faces, and the "war" trope merely serves to distort that fact to the substantial detriment to society. Yes, it's a real, urgent problem. No, it's not a war, and keeping track of that distinction is important (as this NSA and myriad other issue with this administration demonstrate). The idea that the President could take certain emergency measures in times of extreme national duress is not really in doubt, but it's also not really in issue here, either.

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  35. Anonymous11:07 PM

    FWIW I'm a law professor and the former director of a con law center, and I think Glenn's analysis is precisely correct.

    Youngstown couldn't be more on point, except of course that Harry Truman didn't get caught with his hand in the constitutional cookie jar. The DOJ's argument on this issue merely illustrates that lawyers will argue that their mothers are virgins if that's what the situation calls for.

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  36. Anonymous11:13 PM

    as long as Congress CAN legislate in that area, the President is bound by the law

    Seems incorrect. CAN congress pass a law aginst use of presidential veto? Either answer rebuts.

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  37. Anonymous11:50 PM

    I would tend to agree with the other anonymous that we are not at war..Is that not what Bush's "Mission Accomplished" speech was about? The 'War on Terror" is not a congressionally declared war, you can not declare war on a tactic. A tactic that is being used now by our on Armed Forces....By Congress voting to give war powers to Bush is in itself unconstitutional, therefore invalid..But to claim that The War on Terror is a war to justify his actions as CiC of the Armed Forces, then he could use The War on Drugs, or The War on Poverty, The War on Hunger, etc....

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  38. Anonymous12:28 AM

    The Ugly American calls my post silly and says (s)he'll leave it to stand for itself; if its silliness is so self-evident, why do you so quickly dismiss the opportunity to refute it?

    The Soviet Union had both the weapons and the means of delivery to literally destroy America; the terrorists have neither. All they have is the power this President has given to them: the power of their image. In Bush's telling, they are omnipresent and omnipotent, able to annihilate any target at any time, with only their announcement that they will do so as a necessary proof of their capability.

    Any rational perception of their actual power reveals that their primary danger lies in the fear we surrender to in imagining them: they will not destroy us through attack with weapons, but only through our cowardice, through our sacrifice of rule of law, our tossing away of the Constitution, our credulous eagerness to "just trust" a President who has never demonstrated he is trustworthy, (as if ANY President is worthy of such "trust"--none are). In short, the terrorists are so far winning against us without their having had to mount another attack against us, as we witness with every revelation of secret violation of the law by this administration, with every accomodation to government propaganda by the toothless press, with every argument made that black is white, war is peace, or that the Commander in chief has inherent right to abrogate the law.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Anonymous1:09 AM

    Yes, the Pentagon, which is still standing you may notice. The stock exchange took exactly one day off. Def Con never went below 4. How exactly is that a war for our very survival? How is America in it's last throes since 9/11? Where exactly was anonymous asking for a treaty with Al-Qaeda? How exactly is this threat so dire as compared to any other threat this country has faced in it's past that the President is allowed to violate the law? Declaring "war" against "people" that are "everywhere foreign and abroad" that will go on "indefinitely" does not mean this country needs to violate the clearly accessable laws that have served it so well these many years.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Anonymous1:58 AM

    Sorry to be dim, but are some arguing here that the president has inherent authority to violate the constitutional rights of United States citizens if he feels so inclined? It's not just FISA, it's the fourth amendment. If Youngstown dealt only with the president's inherent authority to violate statutory law, I suppose there would be a sort of loophole if one could believe the president has a greater inherent authority to violate constitutional law, which seems exceptionally unlikely.

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  41. You've certainly managed to generate a lot of traffic and attention with your bogus arguments. The NSA does not need FISA court permission to eavesdrop on US citizens so long as the object of the surveillance is a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power.

    Every President since Jimmy Carter has not only asserted this but has done it. Not one single court has ever questioned the President's authority to surveil foreign powers using the NSA without requiring a warrant.

    Adrich Ames was surveilled without a warrant by the NSA.

    President Clinton, in 1993, approved USSID 18, which specifically states that the NSA not only doesn't require the FISA court's permission but isn't even required to notify them if a foreign power or the agent of a foreign power is the object of the surveillance. In fact, in certain circumstances, NSA isn't even required to get the Attorney General's permission to surveil.

    All your silly arguments about FISA are nothing but a distraction to keep people from looking at the reality that NSA is a military agency, not a law enforcement agency and nothing they do can result directly in the investigation or prosecution of a US citizen. In fact, NSA can legally provide law enforcement with a summary of their surveillance of a US citizen which the law enforcement agency can then use as probably cause to obtain a warrant from the FISA court.

    An executive order signed by President Carter in May of 1979 reads, "The attorney general is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order."

    Carter signed the order just seven months after FISA became Public Law 95-511.

    You might be a lawyer, but you don't understand the law or the Constitution.

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  42. Actually, Richard Posner did not make an argument that what Bush did was legal. He skipped over that part and just said that the Government SHOULD be collecting all this data and more without acknowledging that there's a law which makes it criminal to do that.

    Sounds a bit like Posner's "justification" for the egregious legal opinion in Dubya v. Gore. It amy be terrible law, but in both cases, that's just A-OK with Posner, because, in Posner's opinion, it just needed to be done. Posner doesn't pretend to defend the absurd reasoning in the cowardly per curiam in Dubya v. Gore ... he just thnks that they needed to do what they did regardless of the reasoning ... for the greater good. Seems he feels the same here as well.

    Talk about "moral relativism", eh?

    Cheers,

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  43. Anonymous11:12 AM

    Glen asked: "...who can ignore the courts in areas of national security, what legal foundation could exist to argue for any such limitations?"

    I believe their argument will be based on the Supreme Court ruling of United States v. Nixon (1974)

    In the opinion delivered by CHIEF JUSTICE BURGER, President Nixon did not have “Executive Privilege” unless, (and this is the key), unless he has a claim to protect “sensitive national security secrets.”

    CHIEF JUSTICE BURGER wrote: “Absent a claim of need to protect military, diplomatic, or sensitive national security secrets, we find it difficult to accept the argument that even the very important interest in confidentiality of Presidential communications is significantly diminished by production of such material for in camera inspection with all the protection that a district court will be obliged to provide.

    “He [President Nixon] does not place his claim of privilege on the ground they are military or diplomatic secrets. As to these areas of Art. II duties the courts have traditionally shown the utmost deference to Presidential responsibilities.”
    by CHIEF JUSTICE BURGER 8-0 majority opinion of United States v. Nixon (1974) with Justice Rehnquist not participating.

    1) If Bush finds out info from the illegal wiretaps, he sends that person overseas, by way of rendition.

    2) If there is no court case against a defendant, then there is no need for Bush to provide evidence from the illegal wiretaps. No foul?

    3) Congressional investigation, subpoena documents from the illegal wiretaps are again denied citing national security and US v. Nixon (1974).

    4) If there is no evidence of illegal activity by Bush, then there is no impeachment.

    One more concern that nobody has talked about is with Economic Espionage – information gathered from the snooping about the activities of non-Haliburton contractors doing business in Iraq, and then passed onto Haliburton or Carlyle Group.

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  44. Anonymous2:58 PM

    Judge Posner also said it would have been criminal negligence for President Bush NOT to have done this very appropriate level of spying.

    The Supreme Court in Bush v Gore was 7-2 that the highly partisan Florida Supreme Court's order was unconstitutional. There is a federal statute that I know everyone here believes in enforcing to the letter all federal statutes right? There is a federal statute that says you can't change the procedures established by the legislature for handling the vote AFTER the voting and DURING the counting.

    It's not a close decision regarding the illegality of the Florida Supreme courts highly partisan orders from the 7 out of 7 democrat judges on that court.

    But this last poster reveals what is at the heart of all this hoopla from the left. Its got nothing to do with protecting our country its all a result of never getting over losing 2000 and 2004 to President Bush's superior campaigning and intelligence compared to your monkey claping boys. Its called Bush Derangement Syndrome. Gets some help before its too late.

    Gary

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  45. Anonymous3:18 PM

    To Anonymous who asked:
    Sorry to be dim, but are some arguing here that the president has inherent authority to violate the constitutional rights of United States citizens if he feels so inclined?


    No people are not arguing the President can violate the constitution. People are arguing (quite correctly) that the President's actions do NOT violate the 4th Amendment.

    The 4th amendment does NOT prevent warrantless searches. It only prevents unreasonable searches. In a non-criminal investigation such as foreign intelligence investigations (even when the target is a US Citizen) the 4th amendment protections are determined basically on a was it reasonable in the circumstances by balancing the importance of the interest the government is seeking to protect by the search against the reasonable expectations of privacy of the individual being searched.

    Using this king of analysis the Supreme Court has ruled many times that various kinds of warrantless searches or even searches when there is not even a suspicion a crime has been committed (much less probable cause) are perfectly valid under the 4th amendment.

    For example searches of automobiles pursuant to traffic stops, searches of a person not under arrest for the safety of the officer (called a "Terry" search by lawyers), searches of cars for illegal aliens within 100 miles of the Border, searches of all property and persons in boats in the coastal waters of the USA, and the IRS and other government regulators can enter your business or home and seize your papers, bank account records, computers, etc. etc. all without a warrant and its perfectly legal under the 4th amendment.

    Its really pretty clear that warrantless foreign intelligence surveillance is perfectly legal under the 4th amendment. All Presidents have claimed and exercised this right and inherent power. There is at least a rational argument to be made over whether the President has to follow the procedures in FISA. The question here is whether Congress has the constitutional power to pass a statute that infringes upon or regulates or diminishes the President's inherent constitutional authority to conduct foreign intelligence security.

    There is no Supreme court case that says Congress can do this in this specific area of foreign intelligence security, and there is no Supreme court case that says Congress can not do this. There are many Supreme Court and Appellate court cases that recognize or confirm the president does have inherent authority under the constitution to conduct foreign intelligence surveillance without warrants, but none of these cases even attempt to define the boundaries, if any, of that inherent power of the President which comes directly from the constitution in this specific area regarding foreign intelligence surveillance. Lastly there is one federal appellate case that indicates the belief of the judges making the decision that Congress may NOT by statute encroach upon or limit the President's inherent authority in this area regarding foreign intelligence surveillance without warrants.

    I've tried to give you the non-legalese version of the issues with this. Hope this helps.

    Gary

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  46. Anonymous3:40 PM

    Glenn:

    Thanks for commenting on my blog yesterday.

    I have a new post up that I hope you'll look at, about the new Alito memos. neoprogblog.They are scary scary scary and it's no accident they're released right before Christmas. If you agree with my analysis and my fear that Alito is much, much more dangerous than we thought, would you please help me spread it around?

    Not blogwhoring -- afraid for my country.

    Thanks!

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  47. Anonymous4:49 PM

    Thersites, I read your post about Alito, and while his posture toward the never-ending power struggle between the Executive and Legislative branches is now certainly a salient matter, I take a dim view of nailing him for legal opinions and strategies he promoted when he was an advocate for the Executive branch. Lots of people could not get confirmed to the bench if every position they promoted on behalf of a client were concluded to be their invariable judicial position. Criminal defense lawyers are not justly decreed to be pro-criminal just because of strategies they adopt when zealously defending their clients.

    Alito may well be too deferential toward the Exectuvie branch, but I don't think that suspicion is confirmed by strategy memos he wrote while a DoJ lawyer. Moreover, this issue is not going to sink Alito's nomination, even if the Senators worry he won't protect their turf. The American people don't understand or care about the issue; it isn't sexy like a Roe maelstrom. And they won't want a filibuster over something like this -- the GOP could effectively depict any who filibuster as obstructionist jackasses. It just won't fly.

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  48. Anonymous7:56 PM

    Hypatia, one irony is going to be that these illegal leaks of national security confidential operations at a time of war are going to suck all the momentum out of trying to mount an anti-Alito campaign on the basis of abortion.

    Kind of funny the left have shot themselves in the foot again.

    Gary

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  49. Anonymous10:52 AM

    Antimedia -
    Clinton and Carter both approved warrantless searches (as opposed to wiretaps) prior to the amendment to include searches in the FISA statute. Clinton and Carter both approved warrantless wiretaps SO LONG AS THE ATTORNEY GENERAL ISSUED THE FISA-REQUIRED CERTIFICATION, which, as laid out in FISA, required the AG to certify that US Persons were NOT a party to the communications. NEITHER approved warrantless searches or wiretaps in contravention of FISA.

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  50. Anonymous2:36 PM

    To add to the argument of whether this was legal... (not whether Bush had the "authority" to do something illegal) ... check out this page right from the National Security Agency Website.

    It explicitly states that the 4th Amendment requires oversight and approval by all 3 branches of government.

    (And I love the pics of the White House and the Black government building superimposed over the Constitution)

    Anways, check it out... it probably won't be there long.

    >NSA Site<

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  51. Anonymous4:16 PM

    The focus of the Supreme Court's opinion is on the rights of U.S. citizens to be free of warrantless monitoring and invasion by their Government under the Fourth Amendment. * * * The Court held that the crux of the Fourth Amendment is that the Government is barred from eavesdropping on American citizens without prior judicial approval.

    I agree with your analysis debunking administration arguments that the executive may ignore a criminal statute with impunity. However, I think that more emphasis should be placed on the point made above.

    The Fourth Amendment is an express limitation on the power of the executive, unlike the First, as an example, which limits the power of Congress to enact certain kinds of statutes or the Sixth, which guards procedurally against the natural tendency of the courts to presume the guilt of the accused and railroad him or her into prison.

    What Bush and his apologists refuse to recognize is that their justifications for his acts are beside the point; the executive cannot trespass on the property fenced off by the Fourth Amendment regardless of the gravity of the mission.

    Those few occasions in our history when the notion of government power limited by law has been ignored, such as the internment of Americans of Japanese ancestory during WWII, stand as dark and shameful reminders that liberty is not self-executing and that no one in power can be trusted to protect it.

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  52. Anonymous5:49 PM

    Larryo, please explain for me if you would how the IRS' ability to enter your home and seize all your records, papers, and computers and the information contained thereon including emails, etc., (not to mention the ability to seize your home itself and sell it at auction) ALL WITHOUT A WARRANT OR ANY JUDICIAL PROCESS squares with your blanket statement that the executive branch can NOT conduct any search or seizure without a warrant as provided by the 4th amendment?

    The Bush people are apologizing for anything. They are pointing out there are numerous situations in which warrantless searches are perfectly proper under the fourth amendment. The IRS example above is but one of MANY kinds of perfectly legal and common warrantless searches. Foreign intelligence surveillance is but one of these many, and has been recognized for virtually the entire history of our country by the courts, congress, and the people.

    The constitution is not a suicide pact that does not differentiate between the substance of its original intent and some blind bureaucratic adherence to a rule that has the effect of destroying that very original meaning.

    Gary

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  53. Anonymous5:53 PM

    rebmarks, you are incorrect in implying that President Clinton or Carter ever conceded they *had* to follow FISA or that they never did surveillance that did violate FISA.

    For example, in the weeks after the Oklahoma city bombing, Clinton ordered warrantless and suspicion-less surveillance of various DOMESTIC US PERSONS and organizations and their communications wholly within the USA.

    The New York Slimes nor any of the permanently paranoid class complained one bit. Then or now.

    Gary

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  54. The New York Slimes nor any of the permanently paranoid class complained one bit.

    What an amusing phrase - "the permanently paranoid class" - coming from someone whose entire world-view is based upon a need to give up more and more liberties and privacy to the Federal Government so that it can protect him from the Big Bad Terrorists hiding under his bed.

    There are many democracies which have been destroyed by Governments seizing more and more power against a complacency citizenry. None, by contrast, has been destroyed by terrorists. I'll leave it to you to discern where the real "paranoia" lays.

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  55. Anonymous10:07 AM

    Gary does seem to give away any sense of neutrality with his statements, unable to see through the conservative fog he has happily enveloped himself in. It's called Drinking The Kool-Aid, Gary.

    The very fact that this is indeed called a "war" is at the heart of this issue. It's a war against no defined people, no defined country, no defined location, and no defined end. A "war" against Terror? Terror is an emotion.

    The Bush Administration ignored the law because it felt like it. Because it wanted power. They tell us we should just trust them, yet they can't be bothered to earn that trust. Sorry. Bush lost his freebies.

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  56. Anonymous4:01 PM

    Mr. Reynolds and Renne:

    You also see a bogeyman; you choose to be afraid of that bogeyman. You irrationally choose to fear the bogeyman of your own people who are merely of a different persuasion politically.

    Your fear of this bogeyman is irrational, and your irrational and completely disproportionate responses to these most minimal, trivial, and undetectable invasions of liberty that are really nothing more than theoretical invasions of liberty and of no practical import or effect to citizens lives are completely outweighed by the very great and positive effect in protecting the people of this country.

    You project onto others the paranoia that is the result of the kool-aid and partisanship fog from which you suffer. You suffer from a form of psychological defense mechanism that makes your arguments and deeply held feelings appear rational to you. You see, rather than be concerned about an enemy that is real but difficult to fight and over which you have no control your minds have chosen to disregard that real enemy and create a false enemy in your own government and the people seeking to protect you and your families.

    You see your mind reasons that you do have some control over the enemy if you make that enemy your own government, and it is a far less scarry thing to be concerned about an enemy over which you have some control than it is to be concerned about the real enemy over which you have no control.

    Nothing else but the above or plain old BDS can explain the completely unreasonable and paranoid the sky is falling the country is becoming like Hitler's Nazi Regime and Orwell's 1984 response to what are in fact quite reasonable, limited, and very appropriate responses to the real threats we face.

    Bill Kristol says it quite well today in the weekly standard:

    The Paranoid Style In American Liberalism
    by William Kristol
    01/02/2006, Volume 011, Issue 16

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/534yxceu.asp

    So we are really to believe that President Bush just sat around after 9/11 thinking, "How can I aggrandize my powers?" Or that Gen. Hayden-and his hundreds of nonpolitical subordinates-cheerfully agreed to an obviously crazy, bizarre, and unnecessary project of "domestic spying"?
    This is the fever swamp into which American liberalism is on the verge of descending.

    Some have already descended. Consider Arlene Getz, senior editorial manager at Newsweek.com. She posted an article Wednesday-also after Gen. Hayden's press briefing-on Newsweek's website ruminating on "the parallels" between Bush's defense of his "spying program" and, yes, "South Africa's apartheid regime."

    Yup. First the Bush administration will listen in to international communications of a few hundred people in America who seem to have been in touch with terrorists abroad . . . and next thing you know, government hit squads will be killing George W. Bush's political opponents.
    What is one to say about these media--Democratic spokesmen for contemporary American liberalism? That they have embarrassed and discredited themselves. That they cannot be taken seriously as critics. It would be good to have a responsible opposition party in the United States today. It would be good to have a serious mainstream media. Too bad we have neither.

    Gary

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  57. Anonymous4:10 PM

    Mr. Greenwald: I did it again, I mistakenly referred to you by Reynolds instead of Greenwald in the above post. This is not intentional, but I wanted to offer my sincere apologies as is incumbent upon me to so do.

    Gary

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  58. Anonymous5:44 PM

    Gary: You are a lawyer, no? An officer of the court, sworn to uphold the laws and Constitution of the United States?

    You are letting your pro-Bush sentiment trump every value on which a truly conservative legal point of view is founded. George Bush has publicly admitted he is conducting warrantless surveillance and interception -- likely on a massive, technology-driven scale -- of the communications of American citizens. He has admitted this is outside the 4 corners of FISA. There is no judicial oversight to this spying.

    The legal authority I keep googling on this matter -- because I had him as a professor and trust both his intelligence and intellectual honsesty -- is Doug Kmiec. Kmiec is a devout Roman Catholic and Republican, who wants Roe v. Wade overturned who was Ed Meese's right hand guy in chasing pornographers in the Reagan DoJ. This is Kmiec's latest appraisal of what Bush has done from a blog called the Conservative Voice:

    "I think they were aggressive," said Pepperdine University law professor Douglas Kmiec, who served in the Justice Department during the Reagan and first Bush administrations.

    "Were they right? Here, I think context matters. Within six months, 12 months of the attacks, I think that the AUMF (authorization law) would have been a basis for legal authority," he said. "But that diminishes the further we are from the attacks."

    .....

    Kmiec said Bush clearly believes he did the right thing and deserves credit for keeping some members of Congress informed. "But he was entirely reliant on the quality of legal advice he received," Kmiec said.


    Let me translate that for you. Kmiec -- who I know wants to, with every fiber of his being, vouch for George Bush's righteousness -- is saying that at best, the legal argument Bush and his DoJ are advancing would have covered the first 6-12 months after 9/11. And, in the gentlemanly manner that characterizes him, Kmiec is saying the lawyers advising Bush, suck.

    American Enterprise Institute (a right think tank) scholar Norm Ornstein, refering to Bush and this NSA scandal, has said this is just the kind of behavior Alexander Hamilton had in mind whan raising the subject of impeachment. Former member of the Reagan DoJ, lawyer Bruce Fein, says that the brazenness of it, the 30 some times Bush authorized this program, coupled with his insistence on continuing without legal authority to do so, justifies impeachment.

    The disclosures about this illegal intereception of the communications of American citizens is recent, and occurred with the holidays upon us. Wait until January and I expect, and hope, that more conservative voices, like Bob Barr's, are going to place citizenship over party loyalty and demand both an accounting, and that this stop until it is legal. (Which I think it mostly should be, depending on the contours of the technology and how the data is then used.)

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  59. Anonymous1:21 AM

    Hypatia,

    Bush is upholding the laws and the constitution, and as Judge Posner noted it would have been criminal negligence for him NOT to have conducted this surveillance. The computer mining of the internet is not covered by FISA. ANYONE, with the budget could listen to everyone's computers talk over the internet. You can go online and download any number of software products called packet sniffers that let you view all the internet traffic that is going by from everyone's computers that are around you or in your town, etc. If you are sending unencrypted messages and posts on the internet anyone can listen to them. I find the government collecting this info and having computers search for certain known patterns and information to kick out those that need further consideration to not be invasive, but perfectly reasonable. In fact I would be quite upset if we were NOT doing this.

    In January what you are going to find is that 60% or more of the population believes what the President is doing is what the President should be doing. This in today's climate is an overwhelming MAJORITY.

    As a conservative I am concerned with *real* losses of liberty not imagined ones that are so uninstrusive that they can't be detected. In a country where the IRS can enter your home and seize your computer, all its emails, and every piece of paper in your home ALL WITHOUT A WARRANT, I find your hysterics on this issue to be completely unpersuasive.

    When I balance this almost theoretical only loss of liberty against the danger of a nuclear bomb being exploded in one of our major cities, I come down strongly in support of protecting us.

    Watching the left quote Bob Barr reminds of how the MSM loved to run and quote Goldwater only after he was long retired and senile.

    I don't buy professor Kmiec's views as you interpret and present them on a sliding scale of how at war are we with scale sliding as time moves away from 9/11. The fact there have been no more attacks on USA soil is a RESULT of Bush's efforts and continued unrelenting pursuit of the enemy. If Congress thinks we aren't at war any longer all they have to do is pass a resolution declaring we are no longer at war and retracting their previous declaration of war/AUMF or they could stop funding the operations for the war. Until CONGRESS says we aren't at war any longer by one or both of these methods, then we ARE still at war just as much as we were on 9/12/01.

    If your reaction to the preceding paragraph is that well a republican controlled congress won't do what YOU want and declare there is no war, and therefore you seek to have YOUR viewpoint imposed on the country by an unelected federal judge, then you are thinking in VERY undemocratic terms.

    Seeking to impose a minority viewpoint on the entire country via a judicial tyranny of unelected judges *IS* a *REAL* threat to liberty. If you think the congress should declare the war over, then campaign for that proposition at the ballot box, and stop entertaining thoughts of methods to have imposed upon the country by unelected judges the tyranny of your ideas that don't achieve majority support at the ballot box.

    Gary

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