Saturday, January 07, 2006

Sharing our "secrets" with Osama

(post is updated below)

One of the most revealing aspects of the NSA scandal has been the way in which Bush followers have been running around shrieking that national security has been damaged and treason has been committed by the New York Times. All of that is based upon the Times' disclosure that Bush ordered the NSA to eavesdrop without judicial oversight (rather than with it). Now that the initial screaming and demands for hangings are dying down a little, his followers are confronted with the fact that this accusation makes no sense whatsoever, since whether we eavesdrop with judicial oversight or without it can’t possibly be of any use to terrorists.

What has become unavoidably apparent is that their rage over this disclosure stems from the fact that it has embarrassed George Bush and harmed his political interests, not that it has harmed the national interests of the United States. But to them, George Bush is America, and whatever he does is, by definition, the national security of the U.S. Thus, to undermine or impede George Bush -- even to point out that he broke the law -- is, in their minds, to impede the United States and therefore to commit treason.

In any event, John at Powerline thinks -- after he and his comrades spent three weeks screaming "treason" at everyone -- that he finally found an explanation as to how the Times’ story "harms national security." But anyone with an open mind who reads John’s explanation can see that John literally has no idea what FISA is, or what this entire controversy is about. I don’t mean that he’s wrong in his analysis or that he’s interpreting facts incorrectly. I mean that he’s just ignorant of basic, undisputed facts regarding the matter about which he’s opining so pedantically. But, to his credit, John is at least the first person I have seen try to offer an explanation for the "treason" accusation, so it's worth exploring.

John begins his argument, fittingly enough, by citing the Myth of Osama’s Cell Phone:

First, there is apparently no dispute about the fact that when it was published in the American press [in 1998] that we were listening in on Osama bin Laden's cell phone conversations, he either stopped using cell phones or switched to a different technology.

Yes, John is right: there is "no dispute" at all about this cell phone story -- except for the lengthy and detailed article in The Washington Post two weeks ago demonstrating that the whole tale is an urban myth. It’s a cartoon story about gadgets and villains that someone fed to George Bush, who ate it up and then shared it with us at his Press Conference, even though it's plainly untrue.

But even if it were true, anyone who thinks about it for just a few seconds would realize that it negates, rather than bolsters, the accusation that the Times "damaged national security" with its story. According to the myth, the Osama Cell Phone caper happened in 1998. That would mean that it dawned on Al Qaeda at least seven years ago that we try to listen in on their calls and that we have the technology to do it. That, in turn, means that the Times story didn’t tell them anything that they, along with the rest of the world, didn’t already know.

John moves on to next argue that the terrorists didn’t know about this thing called "FISA" until the Times story treasonously spilled the beans and told them about it. Honestly, that's his argument:

These emailers [asking John how the Times story could have harmed national security] assume that al Qaeda members know about FISA. I think that is extremely unlikely. Very few Americans knew anything about FISA before the current controversy arose.

So the diabolical, unprecedentedly dangerous terrorists who pose an existential threat to the U.S. that is equal to or greater than that posed by the Soviet Union are, in John’s mind, so uninformed, unsophisticated and stupid that they never heard of or knew about the 30-year old public law that defines the powers of the U.S. Government to engage in surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes. They never heard of FISA or knew anything about it until the Times published its story.

And now the cat is out of the bag – now, thanks to the Times, they know that we have this law called "FISA" and have become aware that we do this thing called "eavesdropping" and now they will be able to thwart us. Is that supposed to be satire?

Recognizing that this may not be the most persuasive argument ever, John has a back up just in case the terrorists had heard of FISA. He argues that if the terrorists had heard of FISA, they were intimately familiar with how the FISA court worked. Thus, prior to the Times story, terrorists would have thought that it took a long time to obtain a warrant in order to listen in on their conversations when, in reality, as they now know (thanks to the Times), we were violating FISA and therefore able to eavesdrop immediately:

If the terrorists did know about FISA, they probably also knew that it would take days, weeks or months to obtain a FISA order. Thus, while they probably would be smart enough to realize that the cell phones they had used to try to contact their confederate were compromised and should be discarded, they would not realize that we had the ability to begin intercepting messages coming in to the captured cell phone almost immediately, and then begin intercepting messages to and from the phones that were calling the terrorist, also almost immediately.

This paragraph reveals an astounding ignorance. Anyone who has paid even the most minimal attention to this matter – let alone someone who holds themselves out as some sort of legal scholar qualified to accuse people of treason – has known for quite some time that FISA expressly allows immediate eavesdropping without a warrant under Section 1805. Thus, unless a terrorist were as confused and uninformed about the law as John still is, a terrorist who thought we were complying FISA (rather than violating it) would have already known that we could eavesdrop immediately and without a warrant. That's because FISA says in clear and unambiguous language that we can. The Times story reporting on Bush's illegal program didn't reveal that we could eavesdrop immediately because the Government has that power even if it complies with FISA.

Shouldn’t this be extremely embarrassing to John? FISA is not really that long of a law, and it’s pretty straightforward. It’s been three weeks since this scandal began. He obviously has no idea what FISA even says. John could have made the argument he just made only if he was completely unaware of the fact that FISA itself allows immediate eavesdropping – a fact which not only is readily apparent from the law, but also has been mentioned by pretty much everyone who has discussed this matter since it first arose.

This really is the level of argument which is coming from Bush followers on this issue. It is wildly incoherent and uninformed. That’s because they begin with the premise that anyone who says anything that is harmful to George Bush, particularly with regard to his terrorism policies, is a subversive and a traitor, and only thereafter, in each individual case, do they go out in search of rationale to justify the accusation. The fact that none exists doesn’t stop them, or even give them pause, in insisting that those who criticize or impede George Bush should be imprisoned.

And as I've pointed out before, while the Times story told the terrorists nothing about our intelligence-gathering methods, George Bush -- in order to get re-elected and then to argue for renewal of the Patriot Act -- has revealed ample information, in detail, about all the ways we are successfully monitoring and tracking their communications and their movements.

And it's always worth noting that all of this is independent of this question: if George Bush were violating criminal law in ordering this FISA-bypass program, should the Times have informed the public about it? Does George Bush have the right to violate the law if he decides doing so strengthens U.S. national security? Those are questions Bush followers never address, but does anyone need to hear them address them in order to know their answers?

UPDATE: In an update to his post, John posts an e-mail from a reader who sets forth a completely different explanation: that all of these disclosures about our "encryption" and "switching" technologies signal to the terrorists how to avoid detection. It's no wonder that John's e-mailer is a fan of Powerline since he has simply invented facts to have an argument.

The Times story revealed nothing about encryption or switching, only that eavesdropping was being conducted without the judicial oversight required by FISA. Moreover, as the e-mailer himself acknowledges, both encryption and switching technologies have been publicly discussed for years. They are hardly new. Multiple reports have indicated that Al Qaeda long ago realized that they cannot safely rely on telecommunications and rely on other methods, such as couriers, for transmission of their messages. And George Bush's speeches, as noted above, have revealed far more details about our surveillance programs.

Finally, and it is this point which is always dispositive, if new technologies were created which made FISA oversight infeasible, the solution in a society which lives under the rule of law is to amend FISA, not to secretly and repeatedly violate it.

UPDATE II: In Comments, Jukeboxgrad makes a very compelling, perhaps irrefutable, demonstration that Powerline's failure ever to acknowledge FISA's 72-hour warrantless window is deliberate and dishonest. They have repeatedly argued that Bush was justified in by-passing FISA on the ground that there is sometimes a need to eavesdrop immediately (i.e., without having time to obtain a FISA warrant), but they have never once disclosed to their readers that FISA expressly permits eavesdropping for 72 hours without a warrant. That sort of argument is not just misleading, but outright deceitful.

Jukeboxgrad makes another excellent observation in a different Comment as well.

Finally, in light of the intellectually bankrupt pro-Bush argument by Powerline featured here, it's only fair that I acknowledge this very well-crafted argument by Doctor Biobrain made in defense of Bush.

99 comments:

  1. I've been thinking the same thing in astonishment that ANYONE on the Left or Right could find anything defensible about Bush's actions. That the New York Times should be punished for revealing the undoubtable illegal actions of this administration is beyond insanity. As you've already quoted on this page the Classifiee Secrets Act expressly forbids using classification as a means of hiding illegal activities. The NYT had a (pardon the somewhat flowery language) sacred duty to publish what they did to hold this administration, that has been so secretive, to account when the Republican controlled Congress has hitherto refused to do so.
    The principle of the separation of powers, and the existence of checks and balances between the three branches (funny how those on the right who support Bush and are usually so eager to divine into the "original intent" of the Founding Fathers have not once referenced the almost primary importance these princiles had for the Founding Fathers) is far too important for Bush's action to be at all tolerated.
    How soon they forget the immortal words of Patrick Henry at the beginning of the Revolution.

    What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!

    Patrick Henry - March 23, 1775

    Those who would now defend Bush have clearly made a different choice.

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  2. Anonymous11:19 AM

    LOL! If John were capable of any shame, he would hang his head in humiliation from your post. But has he's shown many times, he is completely shameless. He's a smug prick who really is trillions of times dumber than he thinks.

    The fact that all the Bush whores look up at him as some sort of legal power is really sad. He's mediocre and often just wrong in his legal spewing. But he counts on non-lawyers not to realize it.

    Here, anyone can see how dumb and uninformed his post is.

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  3. Anonymous11:58 AM

    This is the first time I've ever seen John respond to an e-mail or challenge. Becuase it was Atrios who kept asking, I'll bet John was overloaded with demands to answer and even he felt he had to avoid it.

    I'll bet dollars to doughnuts he won't answer this! You nailed him, and hard. I don't think he ever read the law.

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  4. Anonymous1:17 PM

    Hmm, if you have the interest, could you send this as an email or make a post about it asking Constitutional Law Professor Ann Althouse the same question?

    She doesn't respond to people who are big meanies to her like Ted Barlow of Crooked Timber. But since you haven't been a big old meanie to her yet (have you?), she might respond to you.

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  5. But he's part of the troika that created the Blog of the Year. He can't be wrong. He brought down Dan Rather and is omniscient when it comes to the devious left and our capacity to hurt America. How dare you point out that he is just another stupid wannabe. I am an attorney and I would have been fired long ago had my clients seens the mendancity of my "legal analysis". Does John have a live client that he can show us? Someone that actually pays him for this crap?

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  6. Anonymous1:32 PM

    One could make the argument that Bush hasn't damaged national security because "the terrorists" have the sense not to trust a single word he says and in fact pay very little attention to him.

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  7. Anonymous1:46 PM

    I believe Glenn is being either too generous or too naive. We are far past the point at which we mere incompetence can suffice as an explanation for these statements. This is not ignorance or stupidity. The administration and its supporters are engaged in a conscious and brazen effort to distort the facts about this episode. The sooner we realize that and react accordingly, the better chance we have avoid a real crisis.

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  8. Paradox - I agree the NYT still has a lot of explaining to do about why they sat on this for a year. How could it not have been immediately obvious that merely disclosing the program's illegality (as opposed to operational details) could not even theoretically do harm to our security and, in any event, as something which was against the law, should have been reported anyway? But that's a different issue. It is thanks to the NYT that we have learned about this at all - in the face of Bush's demands/pleas that they not publish it - and these sorts of attacks on a free press really are attacks on our right to know what our Govenrment is doing. I'm no fan of the NYT, but it's not hard to pick sides here.

    Quxxo - I once wrote wrote a post critiquing something Althouse said and a reader of mine posted it. She e-mailed him and said she doesn't respond to "attacks" on her, even though what I wrote was incredibly mild and only about the "argument" she made. I'm probably on her forbidden list, too, but you may want to try.

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  9. This is not ignorance or stupidity. The administration and its supporters are engaged in a conscious and brazen effort to distort the facts about this episode.

    Some are. And some are just dumb. As a long time reader of Powerline, I believe John falls into the latter category. But it ultimately doesn't really matter. What matters is that the Administration has now openly embraced dangerous lawlessness, and its followers not only accept and justify that, but attack, with increasing severity, those who don't. Whether it's because they're dumb or malicious doesn't seem to me to matter all that much.

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  10. Anonymous1:54 PM

    Glenn, thanks for this and the great posts at Digby's blog. I hope you will comment on Andrew McCarthy's post at National Review Online, "Now Judges Are Leaking."

    It looks to me like the "leaks" cited are not really comments by the judges "on the merits of any pending or impending action."


    http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200601051559.asp

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  11. Anonymous2:00 PM

    OK, I didn't read John's post, just your description of it. I couldn't fathom the harm to national security, either, but had to assume that if one existed, it was in some way based on an aqdvanced technological disclosure. But can this be right? Is this great legal mind really saying it's an intolerable harm to national security, indeed treasonous, to report on (a) the existence of a federal law; or alternatively (b) what a federal law plainly says? That's his argument? I mean, the whole thing is published in the United States Code, isn't it? It's not a "secret law".

    We know that congress, in the supposed interests of national security, passed The Patriot Act without reading it. Maybe John is suggesting that this is the new standard of citizenship in the country. Yeesh, I'd better cancel my subscription to my alma mater's Law Review. I wouldn't want to offer aid and comfort to the enemy.

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  12. Of course, you're dealing with a guy here who has been opining about the legality of Bush's actions although he hadn't even read "Hugh" Black's opinion in Youngstown until well after he started defending Bush. (Maybe he's consfused Hugo Black and Hugh Hewitt? That would explain a lot...)

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  13. Anonymous2:16 PM

    Pat Buchanan, for one, was on the Today Show a day or two after the scandal broke, spouting the "under FISA you had to wait 72 hours before being allowed to wiretap" BS. I've heard it on other news shows, too.

    This shows up the Republican lie machine for what it is - a way of spreading untruths. The law is very clear and anyone can look it up. That they are lying even in the face of this shows that what they are doing is deliberate. The shame is that the alleged news people they are dealing with don't know enough or are corrupt enough not to point out to their viewers that the famous Republican on their show "misspoke."

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  14. Anonymous2:27 PM

    The frustrating truth about much of what the right does isn't that it purposefully denies the facts in order to keep their grip on power. It's that there are so many people uninvolved who just swallow swallow swallow.

    I hate to holla back, girls, but I gotta give an amen to RJ Eskow. There is either ineptitude or an unwillingness on the part of the elected opposition to do something about this.

    It's almost comical. We've been right for six years now. Whe know the tactics. The lies aren't even GOOD lies. But things haven't changed at all. Hmm, problem with that somewhere?

    But anyway thanks to Glen. Your analysis is piercing and purposefull and correct, as usual. Maybe you'd run for congress?

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  15. Anonymous2:29 PM

    "for if this broke before the election it's likely Bush would have been defeated..."

    He probably was defeated. How else to explain the exit polls, which dovetail so well with numerous reports of election tampering.

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  16. Anonymous2:35 PM

    It seems pretty clear to me that the reason many on the right seem to be missing the point regarding the illegal wiretaps is that they see absolutely nothing wrong with it across the board. In their eyes, the enemies of the state are not only the terrorists, they are anyone who has something negative to say about the current administration, or, for that matter, any conservative Republican (consider those misguided holdouts who are still defending Tom DeLay, for God's sake). To John and those like him, dissenters present a clear and present danger to the foundations of America, so, in their minds, spying on these "bad guys" is fully justifiable. Why else would these people like John continue to trumpet their bogus analysis of the current scandal?

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  17. Of course, you're dealing with a guy here who has been opining about the legality of Bush's actions although he hadn't even read "Hugh" Black's opinion in Youngstown until well after he started defending Bush.

    Scott - Ever since this scandal began, John kept making all sorts of excuses about time-constraints and other obligations every time he posted on this issue. It's been clear from the beginning that he's been lost - he has read very little about the whole scandal and doesn't understand what he has read. But that has not stopped him, at all, from emphatically and even angrily defending Bush and accusing Bush critics of being wrong and treasonous. I really believe that people like him immediately in their minds conclude that Bush did nothing wrong, and only then set out to think about what happened - just in order to find support for that view. That is true cult behavior.

    As for the "Hugh Black" reference, I actually didn't notice that until you just mentioned it. I have no doubt it was NOT a typo. Between John and Hugh (the actual one), it is difficult to decide who is more shallow, or more of an intellectually dishonest shill. There are some smart and decent pro-Bush bloggers out there. Why do they choose the lowest, dumbest, and most dishonest ones to revere?

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  18. Anonymous2:44 PM

    Some are. And some are just dumb. ...Whether it's because they're dumb or malicious doesn't seem to me to matter all that much.

    Well, it kinda does. I mean, "dumb vs malicious" isn't really what the comment was getting at. And I don't think we need to violate Godwin's law to get at it either.

    What assgrabber is trying to disguise from himself by cobbling together some kinda argument--any argument, please please please--is that he is not a conservative, he's an authoritarian. Maybe that's a distinction without a difference, lefties would say, but I don't think it is, at least in how these guys imagine themselves and theorize to themselves. This is why you actually have some pretty major league rightwingers coming in very hard against W on this one. Bob Barr, Safire (who's been pretty consistent on furiously opposing things like TIA and other surveillance). Some of these guys have the intellectual honesty, when finally pushed to this extreme, to say, "Wait a minute. We're supposed to be the champions of individualism and freedom--how's that supposed to comport with our guy creating a police state?"

    I've always thought that the Right, despite this individualist rhetoric--and including a lot of people who label themselves "libertarians"--was at bottom an authoritarian ideology. That's its whole psychological appeal: Strong Man With Stick Will Bludgeon Everyone We Don't Like. I Get To Be Strong Man. Or at least identify with him anyway.

    Of course lots of conservatives would reject that interpretation. And now that it's being so unambiguously laid bare, some of them are struggling to separate their principles from their love for Dear Leader. They can see what's being shown to them in this mirror, and they don't like it. Your argument, like Cole's take-down of Yoo in the NY Review, exposes just how flimsy the legalistic veil over this exercise of sheer authoritarian power really is, and some on the right have enough intellectual honesty to recognize it themselves, once the arguments become this ludicrously untenable.

    Others like it just fine, and are having to work really really hard at spinning more veils to keep from admitting it to themselves, each more threadbare than the last. That furher prinzip is addictive stuff.

    Oh damn--Godwined after all....

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  19. Pat Buchanan, for one, was on the Today Show a day or two after the scandal broke, spouting the "under FISA you had to wait 72 hours before being allowed to wiretap" BS. I've heard it on other news shows, too.

    I heard that, too - although I have to say that I usually find Buchanan intellectually honest and chalked it up to a mistake. And really, those kinds of mistakes were understandable in the first couple of days after the NYT first published the article. Most people were not intimately familiar with the provisions of FISA then and it's understandable that there was some confusion like that.

    But this is 3 weeks later. And John is a lawyer and is opining on this issue endlessly. And everyone now knows that FISA has this 72-hour window. For him not to have processed it - or to have ignored it in order to make his dishonest argument - is just inexcusable.

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  20. Hinderaker is like one of those bad defense lawyers you see on a Law & Order episode -- "my client wasn't there that night and even if he was you can't prove he did it."

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  21. Others like it just fine, and are having to work really really hard at spinning more veils to keep from admitting it to themselves, each more threadbare than the last. That furher prinzip is addictive stuff.

    Good points, all of them. I don't consider followers of Bush to be "conservatives." I think this sort of invasive lawlessness (let alone the expansive power of the Federal government, uncontrolled spending, etc.) is repellent to true conservativism, which is why, as you point out, lots of conservatives are highly uncomfortable, at least, with these transgressions.

    In some way, the Bush presidency has creted a whole new ideology and movement that is not conservative and obviously not liberal. It is highly personality-dependent and exceedingly authoritarian, and the allegiance is to Bush's authority above all else. The motives for that can vary, and that's the issue which I think is of secondary importance. But anything that can impede Bush's power - the media, the constitution, whistle-blowers, the Congress, etc. - by definition becomes the enemy.

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  22. Anonymous3:06 PM

    First, there is apparently no dispute about the fact that when it was published in the American press [in 1998] that we were listening in on Osama bin Laden's cell phone conversations, he either stopped using cell phones or switched to a different technology.

    Of course, this whole urban legend originates from the whole idea that the wogs are too dumb to know how technology works.

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  23. Anonymous3:11 PM

    What makes me crazy about all these discussions about did the terrorists know about FISA or not, and how it works or not, is that it shows no understanding of how people react when they are doing something that the U.S. government doesn't want them doing. In my own interactions with radical activists and with people dealing drugs is that they are INCREDIBLY PARANOID. They just assume that the government is breaking the law to spy on them. Whether or not Al Qaeda knew about FISA, I think we can safely assume that they believe that Bush would do anything possible to spy on them. It isn't like Bush has some sort of international reputation for restraint and respect for laws.

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  24. Anonymous3:20 PM

    When John increases his donations to the Republican Party and is named Attorney General or Head of homeland Security, he will know just what to do. Pass secret laws that no one knows about, not the NYT, not even the courts. That way the terrorists will not be able to avoid violating them. Simple.

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  25. Anonymous3:28 PM

    One thing that no one has brought up with respect to the Osama-cell-phone canard...FISA would not have applied to such an interception in any event. It only applies to "electronic surveillance" specifically defined as such. It does not limit NSA's ability to intercept cell phone calls in Afghanistan. So this example that supposedly proves the need to ignore the law is actually entirely irrelevant, even if it's true.

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  26. My understanding is that the Times "agreed" with the administration to withhold "certain details" that may have, arguably, been harmful to national security.

    Vetting those "details" must have required lengthy deliberations with experts in both law and national security. It obviously included repeated discussions with the Administration, culminating with the President's direct appeal, presumably still arguing that the information in the story threatened the national interest, as oppossed to his personal interest.

    Clearly, the Times took at least some action to ensure the interests of the United States were not put at risk. They spent substantial time and effort in the process, including repeatedly considering the Administration's view.

    In the end, they simply could not agree that the interests of the country and the interest of the President were one in the same.

    They remain treasonous until they do.

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  27. Anonymous3:44 PM

    Glenn said "FISA itself allows immediate eavesdropping – a fact which not only is readily apparent from the law, but also has been mentioned by pretty much everyone who has discussed this matter since it first arose."

    Everyone except Power Line, that is. (Glenn has pointed this out, but I think the exact citations might be helpful.)

    Between 12/18 and and 1/6, Power Line has posted 23 articles mentioning FISA. Number of these articles that make reference to the 72-hour provision: zero.

    And not only is the 72-hour provision not mentioned, but the same misinformation that Hinderaker posted on 1/6 (that FISA inevitably introduces intolerable delays) has been posted on Power Line at least three times before, as follows.

    On 12/19, Hinderaker said: " ... we must begin obtaining information right now. A delay of even a few days may render the information useless ... And it is likely that the first hours or even minutes after we obtain a cell phone number or email address are most apt to yield helpful new information. So it is easy to see why going through the process needed to obtain a warrant from the FISA court would undermine the effectiveness of our anti-terror operations."

    On 12/20, his colleague Mirengoff said: "If ... we learn that Osama bin Laden has recently called certain phone numbers in the U.S., our government should be able immediately to tap the phones of those with whom the master terrorist has been in communication. It should not be required to (a) figure out whether that person is a U.S. citizen or legal permanent resident which is the threshold determination under FISA) and (b) endure the delay of proceeding in court. A contrary result would tend to make the Constitution a suicide pact."

    On 12/22, Hinderaker said: "It’s interesting, nevertheless, to examine the provisions of FISA with a view toward answering this question: Given that the administration used the FISA warrant procedure for the vast majority of its anti-terror electronic intercepts, why did it bypass the FISA procedure in the relative handful of instances represented by the NSA program? One good answer to this question, of course, is speed. Obtaining a FISA warrant would require a matter of days, at least, and perhaps much longer. But when our forces overseas capture a terrorist and take possession of his laptop or cell phone, time is of the essence. Those phone numbers and email addresses will be useful only until the terrorist’s associates realize that he has been captured or killed. So the first days, hours or even minutes after the numbers and addresses fall into our possession are likely to be critical."

    By the way, Hinderaker is a graduate of Dartmouth College and Harvard Law School. Mirengoff is a graduate of Dartmouth College and Stanford Law School. Presumably they are among the best legal minds the right can find (along with folks like Yoo, I guess). How odd that they can be so repeatedly and consistently wrong about something so simple. I find it hard to believe (as Glenn surmised) that John is simply dumb (and not also profoundly dishonest).

    Hinderaker has a prominent track record as a liar and an idiot (I have documented a few examples here). Therefore I think it's important to notice that his colleague Mirengoff (who perhaps does not yet have an equally prominent track record) also made the same "mistake." And all three of them (including Johnson) have not yet been collectively able to figure out that a correction is required.

    I urge that everyone reading this remind Power Line (powerlinefeedback@gmail.com) that it's been weeks since they started promulgating this misinformation, and therefore a correction is long overdue.

    I have reason to believe that they actually read their email.

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  28. FYI: Glenn Greenwald's argument against America has been effectively shattered by Doctor Snedley, Personal Assistant to Doctor Biobrain, in his latest usurption NY Times Traitorism Explained

    Read it and weep, people. Read it and weep.

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  29. Anonymous4:15 PM

    Doctor Biobrain,

    Your article is brilliantly funny. As good as anything by Jesus' General (patriotboy) and that's saying a lot. Thank you.

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  30. Anonymous4:17 PM

    Note this other stunning bit of illogic from the right. We're repeatedly told (by some) that what Bush did is OK because he didn't do anything Clinton et al didn't already do (e.g., allegedly with Echelon).

    For example, on 12/20, Hinderaker said this: "The Clinton-era 'Echelon' electronic surveillance program went far beyond anything now under discussion."

    On 12/24, Hinderaker said this: "I think the NSA intercepts that are the subject of today's article have been going on for years, if not decades."

    But if Bush is doing nothing new, then the NYT report is old news. If it's old news, it can hardly be a dramatic, enemy-enabling act of treason. Except on Planet Hinderaker.

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  31. Anonymous4:32 PM

    Lots of conservatives are in revolt! Today I read in the John Birch Society publication, (http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publish/article_2906.shtml) a vary concise argument for withdrawing from Iraq NOW. There was a lapse there in the middle when the writer went off on the UN, but every other argument is clear and correct.

    Who would have guessed?

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  32. Great points Jukeboxgrad - I added them to the post in an Update, along with a link to the very compelling Doctor Biobrain take-down of what I wrote, which is going to take me a good long time to try to respond to.

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  33. I'm always resistant to following Bush's arguments about anything for many reasons, one of which is whether he's throwing out a red herring. It's not about the speed. It's the capacity. He wanted to follow the $ cause that was the only profile that mattered to him. So, when the CPA's send their clients' returns to India via email downloads, that's an international call...and when you pay bills online...or do stock buys/sells ... or you accept cookies your keystrokes are monitored. No he's been tracking the $ profiles and that would be a tough sell to a FISA court or Congress.

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  34. Anonymous4:41 PM

    "FISA is not really that long of a law, and it’s pretty straightforward. It’s been three weeks since this scandal began. He obviously has no idea what FISA even says."

    That's of no particular suprise. Expecting this guy to read anything longer than a haiku and parse its meaning would be akin to trying to get a cat to take a shower.

    "Shouldn’t this be extremely embarrassing to John?"

    Well, that would imply that he has a sense of shame.

    It's refreshing that you have the patience and acument to hoist this guy on his own asstard - your are a better man than most of us.

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  35. Anonymous4:47 PM

    Back before the 2004 election, we were treated to an endless stream of warnings about possible terrorist attacks.

    Homeland Security kept saying that there was "chatter", or "terrorist chatter", which indicated that something might be about to happen.

    Excuse my ignorance, but wouldn't a statement like that indicate to the terrorists that we were trying to listen to them?

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  36. Anonymous5:01 PM

    Glenn,

    I believe the reader comment on the Powerline post is referring not to the
    12/16 NYT article
    , but rather to the
    12/24 NYT article
    and/or the recently released Risen book, which present more details re: the methods used in eavesdropping. I haven't read the Risen book, but the 12/24 NYT article doesn't have some of the information that the reader claims. For example, the reader states that "The recent disclosures publicly (and loudly) confirm the NSA's highly effective code-breaking technology". But I haven't been able to find any discussion of the NSA's ability to break code in the NYT articles. The NSA could easily be listening in to the reams of unencrypted information sent over phone, satellite, and internet communications.

    The reader's second point (that enemies will now avoid US telephone and Internet channels since the 12/24 NYT article revealed that the NSA has backdoor access to US telecom streams) may have merit. He essentially makes the same point as Orin Kerr, that enemies may avoid routing info through US telecoms. I'm not sure if this is a valid concern or not, as there are lots of questions that need to be addressed first. For example, can someone control how their communications are routed? Did Al Qaeda members suspect that any unencrypted communications (regardless of routing) could be eavesdropped upon?

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  37. Llama school -

    (1) Even if subsequent, independent revelations about surveillance capabilities disclosed such information, the disclosure that Bush ordered eavesdropping in violation of FISA did not.

    (2) We clearly have, as everyone knows, the ability to eavesdrop on calls, and not just those routed through the U.S. telephone system. I don't know the answer to the technical questions you raise (is it possible to know/avoid such routing), but clearly terrorists would know prior to these disclosure that it's more likely that the U.S. Government can eavesdrop on their communications if they use U.S. telecommunications channels. Surely they wanted to avoid that before this, if they could have.

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  38. Anonymous5:28 PM

    He essentially makes the same point as Orin Kerr, that enemies may avoid routing info through US telecoms.

    Well, that's an utterly BS argument, given that non-US routing has long been subject to the same kind of tech now being used for domestic surveillance, courtesy of ECHELON.

    What Orrin Kerr seems not to realise is that there are huge NSA listening stations in the UK (the 'RAF' base at Menwith Hill), Japan, Canada and elsewhere, created precisely to address the constitutional issues of surveillance based out of the US.

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  39. Anonymous5:44 PM

    Glenn, thanks for your kind words. Your work on this subject is excellent and essential. Please keep it up, even though I'm sure you have no time to sleep. As Zevon said, "I'll sleep when I'm dead."

    Speaking of highly educated people (like Hinderaker) issuing what amounts to political pornography, Power Line is now touting a new Weekly Standard article by Harvey Mansfield, "the William R. Kenan Jr. professor of government at Harvard."

    I'm agape at this chilling display of naked authoritanianism, which almost reads like a satirical piece by Dr. Biobrain. Mansfield's ideas are commonplace in freeeperville, but here they are dressed up in a three-piece suit. Mansfield basically says, repeatedly, that we can't protect ourselves without breaking our own laws, and that the president is above the law:

    "enemies, being extra-legal, need to be faced with extra-legal force ... A strong executive is one that is not confined to executing the laws but has extra-legal powers ... To confirm the extra-legal character of the presidency, the Constitution has him take an oath not to execute the laws but to execute the office of president, which is larger ... Thus it is wrong to accuse President Bush of acting illegally in the surveillance of possible enemies, as if ... legality is all that matters. This is simplistic ... Republics tend to believe in the rule of law and hence to favor legislative power over executive. Yet the rule of law is not enough to run a government ... In Machiavelli's terms, ordinary power needs to be supplemented or corrected by the extraordinary power of a prince, using wise discretion ... We need both the rule of law and the power to escape it ... The Federalist Papers ... make it clear that republicans had gone astray because they had overconfidently ignored the necessities that all governments face and had tried to wish away the advantages of size, power, flexibility, foresight, and prudence that monarchies may offer. In rejecting monarchy because it was unsafe, republicans had forgotten that it might also be effective. The Framers made a strong executive in order to have both power and security, and they took note of emergency occasions when more power gives more security. ... President Bush's critics do not want him to stop surveillance; they just want him to do it legally--as if legality could guarantee success and morality could make our enemies give up. ... Much present-day thinking puts civil liberties and the rule of law to the fore and forgets to consider emergencies when liberties are dangerous and law does not apply." (Emphasis added.)

    It's worth noticing that Mansfield uses the word emergency (in some form) eight times. And I like his abundant use of "extra-legal." I guess now criminals aren't criminals; they're just folks who did something "extra-legal." And I guess it's comforting to know that Harvard now teaches that "the rule of law is not enough to run a government." Yes, it also takes the cooperation of the business community, as arranged by people such as Abramoff and Delay.

    If all this is true, why is Bush bothering with gibberish about AUMF and Article II? Why not just tell us that he is doing just what the Founders envisioned, exercising "the extraordinary power of a prince, using wise discretion?"

    Mansfield has "hardly left Harvard since his first arrival in 1949" (link). He also has a forthcoming book on manliness. (You can't make this shit up.)

    The subject of his book seems to fit in with his disdain for those who "suffer from squeamish distaste for self-defense." He suggests that real men "do not mind getting tough when necessary."

    As Dr. Biobrain said very brilliantly, "sometimes, you just gotta get freaky." Dr. Biobrain's work is required reading for any of the girliemen in the audience who might "suffer from squeamish distaste for self-defense." (Notice how Biobrain's words and Mansfield's words merge together quite seamlessly. Which of them said what? I can hardly tell the difference.)

    Glenn, maybe it would be worth your while to dismantle Mansfield more effectively than I can. And I'd be delighted if the good doctor has anything to say in defense of the distinguished professor, although I can't be sure that Biobrain is not simply Mansfield's pseudonym.

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  40. Glenn;

    (1) THANK YOU for arguing that the NSA intercepts were entirely LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL.

    How do you do this?

    Well, this post argues that the leak coudn't have harmed USA security because al Qaeda and its affilates must presumably know that they are being eavesdropped upon.

    If this is the case, then the eavesdropping is NOT unreasonable and is therefore entirely CONSTITUIONAL according to Article IV - which only prohibits UNreasonable searches and seizures.

    As you may know, there are at 28 types of warrantless searches and seizures which are routinely done by law enforcement all the time. Among the many reasons courts have always permitted these are the fact that they are reasonable.

    (2) The leakers broke the law because the Intelligence Whitleblower proection Act signed by Clinton in 1998 provides a legal way for a whisleblower to "blow the whistle" on questionable government activity which is classified. The leakers did NOT use this measn; they went to the press. that is against the law.

    (3) I do believe that the leakers and the NYTIMES committed treason because the only beneficiary of the leak was the enemy.

    The leak CONFIRMED to the enemy what they may have suspected.

    Confirming details of the speed and range of intercept activity does harm our efforts to colect intelligence and that aids the enemy.

    HOW?!

    The confirmation alerts them that they must seek other less intereceptible means to communicate. Such as by courier. They CAN do this. AND this makes it tougher for us to learn about and prevent attacks - ESPECIALLY HERE IN THE USA.

    This is incontrovertible.

    Thanks again for making the case that Bush was right, that the leakers are criminals, and that the leakers and the NYTIMES are all traitors.

    All the Best!

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  41. Anonymous5:49 PM

    I really believe that people like him immediately in their minds conclude that Bush did nothing wrong, and only then set out to think about what happened - just in order to find support for that view. That is true cult behavior.

    Glenn's nailed it. I'm depressed by the extent to which political discourse has degenerated into a battle of stereotypes and namecalling. Although i despise this sort of argument from all sides, all sides are not equally guilty. To my utter distress as an idealistic conservative/libertarian, most of what passes for "conservative" thougt in the age of the blogosphere has been hero worship for this administration.

    It's ironically postmodern to the extreme: no inconvenient facts need to be admitted, because everything can be blamed on the liberal media. Rather than lay out the facts and dispute their interpretation, we can just choose the facts to suit our preordained conclusion. Maybe it wins them arguments in their own eyes, but it does nothing to establish a claim on my loyalty.

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  42. Anonymous6:11 PM

    Hinderaker's complete and utter ignorance of the facts lend credence only to the theory that "rathergate" was a bought and paid for scam.

    How a man so completely divorced from all reality could connect the dots as was done with the TANG memos is beyond me. As you've outlined, he'll say and do anything, including ignoring the words in front of his face to defend George W. Bush. How could someone so, well, stupid put together all the technical details and sourcing to disrupt a major news organization so quickly?

    I've always thought the Rathergate memos were a trap sprung on critics who wanted to believe that people cared about Bush's TANG service. Whether Assrocket was a participant in a trap can't be known, but he doesn't seem capable of critical thought - and if he is, he's certainly among the most dishonest people I've ever read.

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  43. Anonymous6:21 PM

    OK, are we all forgetting how the big DEAL during the beginning of the endless Iraq war was the fact that we could TRACK CELL PHONE CALLS? and they were bragging about it? Maybe Bush should be tied for treason for revealing this capability that we didn't know we had?

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  44. Anonymous6:48 PM

    Paradox is right: the Times has behaved far from heroically in this matter, by holding this story for over a year until their own employee threatened to scoop them with a book publication. OK, so the Times editors are cowards. Would they not also be accomplices? I'm no lawyer, but what about the failure to report a crime? Wouldn't this qualify? The Times editors had to know that Bush was acting illegally. I'm just saying.

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  45. Anonymous6:53 PM

    Okie dokie then. . . the John Birch Society's membership poll states:

    67% of their respondents think Bush snooping on Americans is unconsitutional and just plain ol’ illegal

    ..now they can pass that one tooth around.

    http://www.jbs.org/poll.php?vo=1

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  46. Anonymous7:03 PM

    EqualOpportunityCynic: As a libertarian who reads a lot of right-leaning blogs, I feel your pain.I'm especially outraged to see lawyers like the Powerline trio, and Hugh Hewitt, spewing absolute BS that non-lawyer Bush supporters eagerly point to as "proof" that there are smart attorneys who say everything Bush does is A-OK. But I disagree with all who say these men are stupid; they are not. They know exactly how dishonest their legal "analyses" are, and they offer them not for the purpose of good faith debate with other lawyers and to enlighten the public, but rather, they offer them as cover for Bush. They are churning out arguments with a few case names and some legalese tossed in, that are meant to sound impressive to a lay audience that will lap it all up, but which they themselves know to be utter drivel.

    John's most recent pronouncement, in response to a memorandum of law from the Congressional Research Service which takes a dim view of the Administration's legal arguments, sent my irony meter into orbit. Says John, (my emphasis):

    "the CRS report relies heavily on Justice Jackson's concurring opinion in the steel seizure case for its theory that Congress might be able to take away the President's constitutional powers through legislation. As I argued...that opinion is the product of sloppy thinking. Its tripartite analysis, on which the CRS relies, immediately falls apart if one tries to apply it to the President's powers as Commander in Chief, which are at issue here."

    The analysis that lawyers and courts have long looked to as the most intellectually elegant of the Youngstown opinions, John -- after the performance he has been putting on in the NSA matter -- has the gall to describe that as "sloppy thinking."

    He simply has no capacity for shame; none, at all.

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  47. Anonymous7:19 PM

    Great Job Mr Greenwald - I have been unsuccessful at being as clear, but I have been trying to make a similar case. (my post of 12/23 at http://bustardblog.typepad.com, for example)
    But I am concerned that we are once again falling victim to their manipulative hysteria. Instead of answering Assrocket's silly posts, the great minds on our side (like yours) might better spend their time trying to understand why Bush did it, and what is really being hidden behind this curtain of vitriol. We have offered no theory that explains why Bush broke the law. We cannot even explain why the NYT witheld the story for a year -since there is no logical security concern here. Not only will most of the country not care very much until we do so, but I think that we are missing the main story.

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  48. We have offered no theory that explains why Bush broke the law.

    Nobody can offer any theories about this because we have no information at all about why they bypassed FISA, who they eavesdropped on, and what they did with the information. And speculating about that wildly will only help Bush. Presumably, hopefully, this information will come out as more whistle-blowers go to the press and Congress "investigates."

    Besides, I believe it's important first to establish in the public mind that this is an Administration that believes it has the right to break the law and is exercising that percevied power by breaking the law. Regardless of its motives when doing so or whether it tries to do Good with its law-breaking, its lawlessness is a dangerous and intolerable abuse unto itself.

    Whether and to what extent there was abuse remains to be seen. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Bush decided that they would eavesdrop without warrants simply because he does not like the idea that he needs anyone's permission to do anything. Then again, it takes a very strong and morally diligent institution to have the power to eavesdrop in secret and not abuse it, so it's highly unlikely that this was the case here.

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  49. Anonymous7:41 PM

    Fair Enough -I think you have a good point and many thanks for your quick reponse. I just hope some reporter is digging like crazy so that we learn the whole story.

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  50. Anonymous7:48 PM

    "That would mean that it dawned on Al Qaeda at least seven years ago that we try to listen in on their calls and that we have the technology to do it."

    Seven years ago coincides with the first season of The Sopranos, and you could make a drinking game out of the frequency with which Tony screams into his cell phone, "Not on the cell! Not on the cell!" when someone's about to reveal an incriminating detail. Granted Osama might not have HBO, but assuming he's got a VCR, Hollwood's been spilling the beans on the whole cell-phone interception thing for years.

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  51. Anonymous7:57 PM

    I have appreciated the timely and thought-provoking discussion that’s taken place here, but feel compelled to respond to a couple of Reliapundit’s arguments; primarily because they display a profound lack of appreciation for some pretty fundamental principles that we, as a nation have collectively agreed to. I can’t tell if he doesn’t understand these principles, or simply believes that they should be disregarded because they no longer are useful. His first argument, that Glenn’s statements establish that the NSA intercepts are ‘entirely LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL’ because al Queda and its affiliates must know that they are being eavesdropped upon has, as its main premise, that the purpose of the limiting provisions in FISA are to protect al Queda. They’re not! They’re designed to insure there are some limited protections in place when an American citizen is involved in eavesdropping conducted pursuant to that statute. Now that citizen may be sympathetic to al Queda, or may not be; may know an al Queda member and be corresponding with that member without having a clue that he or she is a member; may be a news reporter; or may be totally unknown to any al Queda member or affiliate, but simply swept up in whatever eavesdropping is taking place. FISA, at least as I read it, simply puts into place some procedural protections to insure that the eavesdropping is appropriately conducted when an American citizen is involved. The inability to appreciate this distinction is the same mistake these people make in objecting to protections provided to those involved in the criminal system, some of whom have done bad things, some of whom have not. We, as a society, have decided that some level of protection is to be afforded to those caught up in the investigative stage of a criminal proceeding, precisely because, at that time, we simply don’t know whether those involved really are bad guys or not. The miranda rights, and similar protections aren’t designed to protect criminals, but rather, those whom the state is bringing it’s considerable powers against to determine whether they’ve broken the law, and therefore might be subject to losing their life or their liberty. The restrictions imposed by FISA have the same, limited purpose.

    Reliapundit’s last argument, that the only beneficiary of this leak was the enemy, and therefore is treasonous, shows a similar lack of appreciation for some pretty fundamental concepts. As Glenn has pointed out, time and again, the importance of the information leaked is that it is discloses, once again, the lack of appreciation and understanding that the current administration has regarding the constitutional and democratic principles that are supposed to govern this country, and presents to the American people, that’s you and me, some pretty important information we should have in determining how to respond. So, I have to disagree, quite strongly, with the statement that only the ‘enemy’ benefited from this disclosure unless, of course, the enemy is defined to include those of us, who feel that President Bush has overstepped his authority, is no longer fit to govern, and should be removed, along with the rest of his administration, from office.

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  52. Anonymous7:59 PM

    Glenn

    Loved your guest blogging on Digby. Have you considered a rss feed for your blog? I'd love to add you.

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  53. Anonymous8:02 PM

    Jukeboxgrad: I am not usually one to make recourse to scatological terms when commenting in public, but that Mansfield piece is unfucking-believable. This Harvard don declares that the Framers gave us a constitutional order that purposely puts the rule of law in a dance with illegality, and he insists that they ardently intended to be sure that the President may break the law.

    What can one say of anyone who would draft such pernicious nonsense, or of any well-educated person who would ratify it?

    Mansfield writes:

    We note that President Bush's critics do not want him to stop surveillance; they just want him to do it legally--as if legality could guarantee success and morality could make our enemies give up.

    Absolutely astounding: a hardcore social conservative -- and scholar of some repute -- is pontificating against notions of legality and morality. The nature and depth of devotion to George Bush that would elicit such "arguments" from one such as Mansfield is, to understate, deeply disturbing.

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  54. Hayek caught on to these clowns decades ago:

    From "Why I am not a Conservative" in The Constitution of Liberty (Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1960):

    Let me return, however, to the main point, which is the characteristic complacency of the conservative toward the action of established authority and his prime concern that this authority be not weakened rather than that its power be kept within bounds. This is difficult to reconcile with the preservation of liberty. In general, it can probably be said that the conservative does not object to coercion or arbitrary power so long as it is used for what he regards as the right purposes. He believes that if government is in the hands of decent men, it ought not to be too much restricted by rigid rules. Since he is essentially opportunist and lacks principles, his main hope must be that the wise and the good will rule - not merely by example, as we all must wish, but by authority given to them and enforced by them.[7]

    7. I trust I shall be forgiven for repeating here the words in which on an earlier occasion I stated an important point: "The main merit of the individualism which [Adam Smith] and his contemporaries advocated is that it is a system under which bad men can do least harm. It is a social system which does not depend for its functioning on our finding good men for running it, or on all men becoming better than they now are, but which makes use of men in all their given variety and complexity, sometimes good and sometimes bad, sometimes intelligent and more often stupid." (Individualism and Economic Order [London and Chicago, 1948], p. 11).

    http://radamisto.blogspot.com/2005/12/hayek-on-conservatives.html

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  55. The nature and depth of devotion to George Bush that would elicit such "arguments" from one such as Mansfield is, to understate, deeply disturbing.

    Richard Posner, another celebrated intellectual, said much the same thing in his WashPost Op-Ed. Je did not contest that the eavesdropping was illegal, but said that it (along with the even more invasive eavesdropping he advocates) was nonetheless justified by the imperatives of this "war" despite its illegality. And he's a federal judge.

    Even though I begin with an acute awareness of the disturbingly slavish devotion which Bush ilicits in so many, I'm still a little amazed, and more than a little disturbed, at how pervasive is this acceptance - and even outright advocacy - of law-breaking by Bush, not just by the manipulated masses but in every elite sector as well.

    I have a real animus for Mansfeld, who has for decades been one of the most extreme and overt anti-gay theorists around, and I have every intention of reading and likely posting about his authoritarian rant.

    But it's hardly confined to him. There are all kinds of people, everywhere, who are arguing NOT that Bush acted legally, but that he has the right and the authority to break the law and that he should do so. I really believe that the segment of the population which would defend him no matter what he did is larger than most people imagine.

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  56. Anonymous8:43 PM

    Steve J - Great quote, it is amazing how much Hayek foresaw. And the people in power on NOT conservatives - I am, and I am not them.

    Glenn's arguments seem a lot more conservative to me than the Bushies. Conservativsm has always been about limited government and the rule of law. If you think about it, that's what this blog is arguing for.

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  57. Anonymous8:59 PM

    SteveJ and Creedle: Some time ago Jonah Goldberg, over at The Corner, declared that when Hayek wrote that chapter, he meant to distance himself only from European, monarchist conservatives, not folks like Jonah or the denizens of National Review. That, of course, is nonsense.

    Opposition to the theory of evolution is overwhelmingly an American, conservative phenomenon, and Hayek cites that as an example of what is wrong w/ conservatism:

    I can have little patience with those who oppose, for instance, the theory of evolution or what are called "mechanistic" explanations of the phenomenon of life...and still less with those who regard it as impious to ask certain questions at all. By refusing to face facts, the conservative only weakens his own position.

    Hayek would have contempt for the so-called "Intelligent Design" apologists over at NRO, and he most decidedly was not one of them, i.e., a conservative. He didn't like labels, but agreed that libertarian -- as most people understand that term -- most closely fit him. Same for me.

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  58. Anonymous9:22 PM

    Hypatia,

    Good point about Hinderaker accusing Jackson of sloppy thinking.

    But of course this goes hand-in-hand with what Hinderaker said about Bush: "It must be very strange to be President Bush. A man of extraordinary vision and brilliance approaching to genius, he can't get anyone to notice. He is like a great painter or musician who is ahead of his time, and who unveils one masterpiece after another to a reception that, when not bored, is hostile. Hyperbolic? Well, maybe. But consider Bush's latest master stroke ... "

    Remember that this is a graduate of Harvard Law School describing a graduate of Harvard Business School. Any self-respecting Harvard graduate is now bound to feel somewhat apologetic when revealing that credential in polite company.

    "I am not usually one to make recourse to scatological terms when commenting in public"

    Same here, but Mansfield is obviously a world-class asswipe.

    Glenn,

    "lawlessness is a dangerous and intolerable abuse unto itself"

    Thanks for making this key point. With regard to so-called framing, I think "Bush is snooping on Americans" is the wrong frame (although it's true). A much better frame is "Bush has broken the law, and has no intention to stop, and he claims it's OK because he is above the law."

    "he does not like the idea that he needs anyone's permission to do anything"

    In my opinion, Bush has been taught from an early age that the normal rules that apply to everyone else do not apply to him. I think there are quite a few examples of him acting on this belief.

    And good point about Posner. I agree that he already said much of what Mansfield said.

    "I really believe that the segment of the population which would defend him no matter what he did is larger than most people imagine."

    I think 10-20 of the population are fully prepared to put on swastika arm-bands, provided they're done in red, white and blue. That's why the rest of us have to pay attention and speak up.

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  59. Anonymous10:02 PM

    I would like to know why, now that Bush has admitted to the nation that "much of the intelligence [leading up to the war]turned out to be wrong," his supporters are so anxious to defend his decision to illegally wiretap based on his concerns for national security? He clearly has a bad track record for making important determinations regarding intelligence, war and national security. Why trust him now? If I took responsibility for serious mistakes at work (and didn't get fired) I would have the boss looking over my shoulder daily - that is the least George Bush should expect.

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  60. Hypatia,

    Excellent take down of Goldberg re: Hayek. Nevertheless, it is important to remember that Hayek was a European. Particularly in considering his use of the term libertarian. The word has a long, rich and popular history in Europe predating it's current usage in the US. Unless Hayek specified that he was speaking strictly in US political idiom, it might be well to consider libertarian in its European context.

    Kudos to Jukeboxgrad for mentioning the unmentionable. 10% to 20% doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Glenn is right in describing Bushism (for lack of a better word) as a movement distinct from conservatism. It isn't new though. We've seen it before in other nations at other times. It's simply wearing an American face.

    I'm not one to throw the F word around casually. I believe it describes a highly specific type of political developement. All too often it is abused by being applied to any and every instance of abuse of power. That said, I think facts, however unpleasant,inconvenient or even catastrophic, ought to be faced.

    We are currently confronted by a reactionary movement which dominates both the Executive and Legislature while busily packing the Judiciary. A movement supported by a mass popular base as well as a significant section of the corporate strata. A movement that, crucially, now openly argues that the Chief Executive, in his role of War Leader and defender of the nation, may discard the law at his own descretion.

    We need to acknowlege the true character of the opposition if we are to wage an effective fight.

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  61. Anonymous1:19 AM

    W. B. Reeves writes: Particularly in considering his use of the term libertarian. The word has a long, rich and popular history in Europe predating it's current usage in the US. Unless Hayek specified that he was speaking strictly in US political idiom, it might be well to consider libertarian in its European context.

    Are you certain of that? I have always understood the term "libertarian" to be of American coinage. Hayek certainly seemed to think so, and in the context of explaining why in the 20th century United States, calling himself a liberal was not accurate, he wrote:

    In the Unites States, where it has become almost impossible to use the term "liberal" in the sense in which I have used it, the term "libertarian" has been used instead. It may be the answer; but for my part I find it singularly unattractive. For my taste it carries too much the flavor of a manufactured term and of a substitute.

    (Point 6, Why I Am Not a Conservative)

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  62. Anonymous2:49 AM

    reeves,

    Good points.

    "It's simply wearing an American face."

    These words of Sinclair Lewis are often-repeated, but I think deservedly so: "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

    I think it's time to say the f-word more often. I also like "Bushist," or "corporatist" (since I think in a fundamental sense what we're seeing is the privatization of the federal government; thanks to people like Abramoff and Delay we now have the best government money can buy; instead of one-man-one-vote we now have one-dollar-one-vote).

    Describing these gangsters as conservatives or Republicans is an abuse of language, and an unfair insult to decent people like Ike. Although describing them as gangsters is also being unfair to people like Tony Soprano, who seems to occasionally show a glimmer of conscience.

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  63. With the rationale that the Bush apologists use, is it any wonder that a Hitler was able to come to power and use that power in such disturbed ways?

    Our republic came about in response to the excessive, unfettered power of the King of England. This absolute power was deemed by the people not to be in the best interests of the people. Hence, a revolt ensued. Has something changed in the last few years that would lead us to willingly change our minds on the form of government our forefathers chose over 200 years ago? And, no, the events of 9/11/01 don't qualify. Not even close.

    As we are seeing, the "patriots" who so loudly - and obnoxiously - proclaim their allegiances to Old Glory, God and apple pie actually are the "anti-patriots". They have become the defenders of absolute power and the supporters of an utter disdain for personal privacy. They believe that our government may do as it pleases as long as we are "at war".

    As one of our greatest original patriots, Benjamin Franklin, once lamented, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." This statement rings as true today as it did 250 years ago.

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  64. Anonymous4:34 AM

    Perhaps another reason the right isnt quite so vocal on the treason angle anymore is becausing it's starting to dawn on the smarter ones that when the leakers are discovered, it will surely turn out that almost all are Republicans.

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  65. "Shouldn’t this be extremely embarrassing to John?"

    John is being disingenuous, not ignorant. That's why he doesn't present as embarrassed.

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  66. I can't be sure that Biobrain is not simply Mansfield's pseudonym.

    I'm sorry, but I skimmed that Mansfield piece and I find this idea very offensive. Even as satire, my argument is far superior to Mansfield's.

    My argument, unfettered by any worries of making Bush look bad, explores the idea that illegal wiretaps are the least of our worries and not a significant part of Bush's war on terror beyond symbolic value (which is probably true). But Mansfield is just spewing out bullshit.

    To suggest that our constitution's "strong executive" has given us "both the rule of law and the power to escape it" is just creepy. I mean, the idea that the executive branch was intended to be permanently outside the rule of law?? That's just stupid. By that standard, Bush really could eat people on TV to scare the terrorists; just as long as he could effectively argue that this really was his purpose for doing so. He doesn't even have to argue that it worked; just that this was his purpose.

    Hell, I addressed this just recently in an award winning post, arguing (non-satrically) that we are ALL given leeway to break the law under emergency situations (eg, killing in self-defense); but that our claim of self-defense is the beginning of the debate, not the end. And that we must eventually submit to the rule of law to determine if we acted correctly. And the same goes for the President. Yes, he can act in emergencies, but his claim of necessity is not the end of the discussion, but the beginning. Mansfield's argument essentially says that a president can do anything, as long as they can argue that it was done as official business. That is absurdist bullshit that even the Weekly Standard should have rejected. I couldn't have made that argument, even satrically.

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  67. Glenn, keep up the good work.

    Jukeboxgrad - a well done to you as well, both here and recently at volokh.

    Putting my armchair psychologist hat on for a moment, it seems to me that many Bush apologists share a similar mentality with a losing poker player. (I know the type from personally lucrative experience). There was something they liked about him in 2000 - the folksy charm, the everyman quality, whatever. They voted for him. And he won, and with the way he won in 2000, they felt like they were scooping the biggest pot of the night with a miracle card on the river.

    With this as a baseline, they now considered themselves winners. Way ahead. Just as it should be. But then something happened. The long run kicked in, and they started 'giving it back'. The long-shot draws stopped coming in. Which they found curious. They knew that they should be winning. If they just stayed at the table a little longer.

    Fast forward 5 years, they are now further behind then they were ahead after that first big pot. In fact, they've lost all of their original buy in. Still, they can't leave, they must 'get even,' so they reach into their pocket for more cash. And lose that as well.

    Now they are desperate, 'Just one big pot, just like that first one. I'm due' they say to themselves.
    For some, this is that big hand they've been waiting for, and no matter how bleak the odds look, they are still due. This is the one, and if you think they're folding having gotten this far, you are crazy.

    My question is, when they finally go bust and see their error, will we be big enough to buy them breakfast, like Joey Kanish and welcome them back to reality, (sorry, had to work in the reference) or will we perform some grotesque end zone dance which drives them right back over the edge?

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  68. How can this be refuted?
    Taken from a Volokh post:

    Alan J. Meese
    Cabell Research Professor of Law
    College of William and Mary

    1) By a September 14 resolution, Congress has authorized the use of "all necessary and appropriate force" against the organization that perpetrated the September 11 attacks, an organization that is still active.

    2) That same resolution recognized that the "President has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States."

    3) In implementing Congress's authorization of military operations, the President is functioning as the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces. The Commander-in-Chief power is conferred by the Constitution, and not by Congress. Congress cannot strip the President of this power.

    4) The Commander-in-Chief power includes the power to initiate offensive and defensive military actions against the foe designated by Congress. Such operations by necessity require the Commander-in-Chief to gather actionable intelligence.

    5) Congress could not by ordinary legislation abrogate the President's Commander-in-Chief power or assign it to other actors, even judges. For instance, after declaring War against Japan in 1941, Congress could not require the President to obtain a warrant before bombing the enemy or shooting down enemy warplanes. Nor could Congress require the President to obtain a warrant before intercepting the enemy's battlefield communications, even if the battelfield was on American soil, as it was after the Japanese invaded Alaska in 1942.

    6) The President does not lose his power as Commander-in-Chief if the enemy allies itself with residents of the United States. If, during WWII, residents of Alaska were sending radio signals to Japanese intelligence officers, Congress could not require the President to obtain a warrant before listening to those communications. In the same way, if a US resident with known ties to Al Qaeda is making a phone call to Mullah Omar's number in Afghanistan, Congress may not require the President to obtain a warrant before listening in.

    7) In 2002, the FISA Court of Appeals itself said that the President has the inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches and that Congress could not abridge that authority. That language was dicta, however. It's my understanding that other appellate courts have reached similar conclusion, i.e., that the President possesses such inherent power as Commander-in-Chief.

    8) It seems to me that those who take the contrary position must also argue that Congress may tell the President whom to appoint as head of the joint chiefs, tell the President how to evaluate his military commanders, tell the President whom to appoint to be Secretary of Commerce, tell the President he cannot veto a bill, etc. Such a position makes Congress supreme, contrary to the text and structure of the Constitution.

    9) Let me close with a quote from Joseph Story about the Commander-in-Chief power.

    "Of all the cases and concerns of government, the direction of war most peculiarly demands those qualities, which distinguish the exercise of power by a single hand. Unity of plan, promptitude, activity, and decision, are indispensable to success; and these can scarcely exist, except when a single magistrate is entrusted exclusively with the power."

    Allowing Congress to tell the President how to conduct military operations contravenes the framers' vision of "Unity of plan, promptitude, activity, and decision."

    Let me also add two things:

    1. Gathering military intelligence pursuant to an authorization of force is, in my view, an exercise of the power as Commander-in-Chief and not legislative. It does not matter that the enemies are in this country, or that they happen to be American citizens. If, during the Korean War, the President suspected that an American citizen in Hawaii was sending signals to a Chinese submarine hoping to sink a departing fleet, I don't think the effort to listen in on the conversation would be "legislative." At the same time, I realize that trying to pigeonhole these things might be a spurious exercise and might be answering the wrong question.

    2. Presumably the President would argue, consistent with the dicta in In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717, 742 (F.I.S. Ct. of Rev. 2002) that Congress cannot, via FISA prevent him from conducting otherwise reasonable searches and thereby interfere with his powers as Commander-in-Chief. The President could argue that allowing Congress to interfere with the President's powers would contravene Article II and thus offend the Rule of Law.



    Meese on the Fourth Amendment Argument:

    First, the text of the Amendment merely forbids unreasonable seizures and searches. It does not purport to require warrants. Instead, it simply provides that, if an officer seeks to obtain a warrant, he must demonstrate probable cause to obtain one. Thus the amendment regulates the issuance of warrants, but it does not require them.

    5) Here it's helpful to recount the history behind the warrant clause. The ordinary remedy for an unreasonable search would be a trespass action, brought before a jury in state court. (Recall that the 1789 constitution did not require the creation of lower federal courts. Plus, an action against a federal officer might not meet the diversity of citizenship test for federal jurisdiction if there were federal courts.) By limiting the availability of warrants, the clause prevented Congress from thereby immunizing federal officers from trespass actions in state court. And, a federal officer who could not obtain a warrant would then have to "take his chances" before a local jury, which would be the final word on "reasonableness."

    6) What though about current law? Hasn't the Supreme Court ignored the text and said that officers "ordinarily" must obtain a warrant supported by probable cause? Not really. Take the classic seizure, an arrest for a felony. So long as an officer has probable cause, he need not obtain a warrant to arrest a felon, even if the felon is unconscious and the officer can obtain a warrant in 1 minute by telephone. Ditto for an arrest of someone who commits a misdemeanor in the presence of the officer. (As, for instance, when a police officer pulls one over for reckless driving and arrests one "on the spot," even though he could easily obtain a telephonic warrant.) In other words, the vast majority of seizures need not be supported by a warrant under current law. Indeed, some seizures may take place even without probable cause, although these must be brief, i.e., 1 hour.

    Ditto for a search of the felon incident to arrest, the search of a car, the search of a container in a car, the inventory search of a car that is impounded (which may take place with no probable cause), an administrative search of certain businesses, etc. As I understand things, depending how you count, there are two dozen "exceptions" to the warrant requirement, though in fact it seems like the exceptions swallow the rule. Plus, these exceptions apply even if the police could very easily obtain a warrant, e.g., even if the car is immobilized.

    7) Finally, and most pertinently, so far as I know, the Supreme Court has never held that the President, Acting as Commander-in-Chief, must obtain a warrant before intercepting communications between a US resident and an enemy with whom we are at war. In fact, the Court has expressly reserved the question.

    8) But, to reiterate, the question whether the President's searches violated the 4th Amendment would be answered simply by asking if the search is reasonable, and not by applying some extra-constitutional presumption that a warrant must be involved.




    To further support the AUMF argument is part of the SCOTUS ruling in Hamdi:

    "The Government maintains that no explicit congressional authorization is required, because the Executive possesses plenary authority to detain pursuant to Article II of the Constitution. We do not reach the question whether Article II provides such authority, however, because we agree with the Government’s alternative position, that Congress has in fact authorized Hamdi’s detention, through the AUMF."



    I think it is evident that they give certain deferential weight to what the AUMF authorized, if it authorized detention, would it not authorize specific intelligence gathering ? SCOTUS does not address the government's plenary auhtority / 'inherent powers' because they agree with the government's contention of Congressional authorization 'through the AUMF'.

    SCOTUS agreed even though the law states:

    "No citizen shall be imprisoned or otherwise detained by the United States except pursuant to an Act of Congress" (18 U.S.C. s 4001)

    The AUMF did not specifically address this law, just as it did not specifically address FISA.

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  69. Anonymous2:10 PM

    For more than two years now www.skype.com has provided untappable encrypted free worldwide communications. There are often 4 million people using it at the same time. They are in every country in the world. It can be run from any pc or mac or even a "pocket pc". Not only is the encryption "strong", but the packets are routed "peer-to-peer" (like KaZaa or Limewire) so there is really no way to intercept them. Add to that, the widespread availablity of poachable Wi-Fi, proxy servers and so on, conclusion: the described mission of the NSA is not feasible.

    What the NSA is capable of doing, however, is monitoring and recording *every* phone/cell call, every email travelling through the switches the telcos/isps have so kindly (and without court warrants) made freely available to the Govt. This, they can data-mine not so much for content, but to map "social networks".

    That's what's really going on here.

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  70. Anonymous2:13 PM

    drew,

    "a revolt ensued"

    A significant portion of the population sided with King George: "Americans today think of the War for Independence as a revolution, but in important respects it was also a civil war. American Loyalists, or 'Tories' as their opponents called them, opposed the Revolution, and many took up arms against the rebels. Estimates of the number of Loyalists range as high as 500,000, or 20 percent of the white population of the colonies" (link).

    The ideological descendants of the Tories are still hardcore backers of King George. And I think it's still roughly "20 percent of the white population."

    biobrain,

    "I find this idea very offensive."

    I understand, and I apologize. I agree with you 100%.

    pooh, thanks for the compliment. I think your poker analogy is astute.

    ChiLois,

    "How can this be refuted? Taken from a Volokh post:"

    All those questions and more have been thoroughly answered at Volokh. A good place to start would be here.

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  71. Anonymous5:09 PM

    Mr. Greenwald, obviously the answer to your question as to how the NYT article threatens national security is that the "terrorists" undoubtedly assumed that Bush and his incompetent administration (and apparently some Harvard and Stanford Law School grads)had no idea that FISA provided for a three day window to obtain a warrant. Therefore, the "terrorists" assumed that Bush would feel as though his hands were tied (due to his own ignorance)and, of course, would never violate the law by illegally eavesdropping on U.S. citizens. This made the "terrorists" feel safe in continuing to call persons inside the U.S. and discussing their treacherous plans (which I'm sure they did thousands of times, if not tens of thousands.) The NYT article exposed Bush as a flagrant criminal and thus tipped the "terrorists" off to the fact that they could no longer safely phone the U.S. I hope this answers your question. (I was going to post this at Powerline, but I'm sure they already understand.)

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  72. "They hate us for our freedoms!'

    "Well, for god's sake, give them the freedoms."

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  73. It has not been as well-publicized but the administration doesn't even have to notify the courts within 72 hours of the wiretaps to follow the law. They have till 15 days after iniating if they can get someone to sign off it is to prevent a clear and present danger.

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  74. Hypatia,

    Thanks for the further quote from Hayek. However, it seems to contradict your earlier assertion that Hayek accepted libertarian as discriptive of himself.

    It may be the answer; but for my part I find it singularly unattractive. For my taste it carries too much the flavor of a manufactured term and of a substitute.

    Not what I would describe as a fulsome embrace. Note, it isn't clear what Hayeck means by "manufactured". Is he refering to the word itself or the act of linking it to the classical definition of Liberalism?

    Certainly using libertarian as a code word for 19th century Liberalism is an American coinage but the word itself was in political usage as early as the beginning of the last century. In Europe it was used to describe the radical tradition that still finds organizational expression today in groups such as the Spanish CNT and FAI.

    It seems Hayek was limiting himself to a definition of the word peculiar to the US. He doesn't appear to endorse it though.

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  75. Anonymous12:07 AM

    W. B. Reeves writes: It seems Hayek was limiting himself to a definition of the word peculiar to the US. He doesn't appear to endorse it though.

    Yes and no. As I originally wrote, he had an aversion to labels. Elsewhere he reluctantly agreed that the U.S. term "libertarian" essentially captured his philosophy. (I hate it when I don't know where to link, or I lack a dead tree source immediately at my fingertips to quote from, but I know I've read this about Hayek.) But I never ran into him or anyone saying he used the term in a European sense, or that it was of European derivation.

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  76. Anonymous12:14 AM

    Should NYT editors be punished? Damn straight they should. Not for publishing the story, but for withholding information on unconstitutional and criminal acts by the Bush administration for over a year.

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  77. Anonymous5:09 AM

    Under FISA, can the gov't use the 72 hour window to "fish" for probable cause using wiretaps? Or, does the gov't need probable cause before tapping a number, under the 72 hour window? (By "fish," I mean that you place the wiretap even if you don't have probable cause, then use the 72 hours to discover if you do or do not have probable cause for a FISA warrant.)

    I did hear on an NPR interview that the procedures for using the 72 hour window take 1-2 days to complete. They included several signatures including the Attorney General. The speaker did not say why the procedures were set up that way.

    I don't know the answer here, so I would appreciate a response if anyone knows how this works.

    If I had to guess, I would say that whoever approves the wiretap under the 72 hour window must be able to show the FISA court that they had probable cause before the wiretap was placed.

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  78. Anonymous2:33 PM

    anon,

    "does the gov't need probable cause before tapping a number, under the 72 hour window"

    Yes. It just doesn't need (right away) to convince a judge that it has probable cause.

    The law is here. The law says the AG can issue an emergency order, but only if "the factual basis for issuance of an order under this subchapter to approve such surveillance exists." In other words, the AG has to think there's probable cause (although he can start surveilling before convincing a judge to agree with him).

    "I did hear on an NPR interview that the procedures for using the 72 hour window take 1-2 days to complete. They included several signatures including the Attorney General."

    That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The law says only that the AG has to decide that the situation is an emergency, that in his opinion there is probable cause (although, at the start, he doesn't have to prove that to anyone), and he (or his designee) has to notify a judge (but not necessarily wait for any response or acknowledgement from that judge).

    It's hard to understand why this would take "1-2 days," unless the people involved have work habits similar to Michael Brown.

    "If I had to guess, I would say that whoever approves the wiretap under the 72 hour window must be able to show the FISA court that they had probable cause before the wiretap was placed."

    Just to be clear: yes, the AG is not supposed to approve the tap unless he thinks there is probable cause. But he can start the tap first, and then deal with convincing a judge to agree with him regarding the probable cause.

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  79. Hypatia,

    I'll take your word for now vis a vis Hayek and Libertarian since I sympathize with the predicament of not having the source at your finger tips.

    I don't think you actually meant "European derivation" though, since most english words are, by definition, of European derivation. This is certainly so with libertarian, since it shares the same Latin root as liberty.

    However, this really wasn't the issue I raised. I said that libertarian had a political usage in Europe prior to the one given it in the US today. That is simply a fact. In European parlance, the term was used as a synonym for the radical schools of thought associated with Proudhon, Bakunin and Kropotkin beginning in the late 19th century.

    According to my European acquaintences, that remains the generally accepted sense of the word in Europe. The current US usage dates back no earlier than the 1940's at best.

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  80. Anonymous3:35 PM

    Yesterday, 1/8, at 4:34 pm, Power Line finally spoke up regarding the 72-hour rule.

    Hinderaker begins as follows: "We've been getting emails from liberals demanding to know why we haven't written about the 72-hour provision of FISA." (Note how Hinderaker assumes that anyone who insists on the truth is automatically a "liberal.")

    It's no coincidence that Hinderaker's post appeared 36 hours after Greenwald highlighted Hinderaker's ignorance (regarding the 72-hour rule, among other things), and 24 hours after I showed that Hinderaker's ignorance is more likely dishonesty. I posted Hinderaker's email, and urged readers here to use it. I guess some did.

    Of course Hinderaker is still being dishonest. He suggests that he never mentioned the 72-hour rule before because "there are quite a number of FISA provisions that we haven't written about."

    But in roughly two-dozen posts on the subject of FISA, Power Line did not just neglect to mention the 72-hour rule; they repeatedly made statements suggesting no such rule existed. I cited such statements in my earlier post.

    Consider this statement by Hinderaker: " ... we must begin obtaining information right now. A delay of even a few days may render the information useless ... And it is likely that the first hours or even minutes after we obtain a cell phone number or email address are most apt to yield helpful new information. So it is easy to see why going through the process needed to obtain a warrant from the FISA court would undermine the effectiveness of our anti-terror operations."

    It is only possible to write such a statement if one is ignorant about the 72-hour rule, or if one is being deliberately dishonest about the 72-hour rule. Either way, a correction is warranted. Hinderaker's latest post certainly does not embody such a correction.

    Also, note how Hinderaker contradicts himself. He now says: "The government has 72 hours from the time when a telephone is found in, say, Afghanistan, and the Attorney General gives the order to begin surveillance, until a FISA judge actually signs the order based on the government's application."

    But Hinderaker already told us that "the first hours or even minutes after we obtain a cell phone number or email address are most apt to yield helpful new information." Indeed. 72 hours is a lot more than "the first hours or even minutes." In other words, the 72-hour period includes the period that Hinderaker indicates is "most apt to yield helpful new information."

    It's true that if a judge doesn't grant an order in 72 hours, the tap has to stop. However, the information gathered can be used, provided that the judge issues the order at any time later. In other words, the government has a virtual blank check for the period that, according to Hinderaker, is "most apt to yield helpful new information."

    Hinderaker tries to get backup by referring to a Byron York article. Of course York is just as dishonest as Hinderaker. York sees fit to discuss the "slowness" of getting a FISA warrant, without bothering to mention the 72-hour rule anywhere in his thousand-word article. Also, York makes claims regarding Colleen Rowley. Rowley herself has spoken up to dispute those claims. This is thoroughly discussed here.

    And here's what's most egregious. Of course it's not surprising that Hinderaker throws in a complete lie: "note what happens if the 72 hour deadline is missed. Suppose that the government gets the FISA application to a judge on time, but the judge has not yet signed the order when the 72nd hour expires. At that point, there is a forfeiture: the surveillance is to be terminated immediately, and information gained from the surveillance during that key 72 hour period cannot be used for any purpose."

    That's simply wrong. If "the judge has not yet signed the order when the 72nd hour expires," then it's true that the tap has to stop (at least temporarily). But the information gathered is forfeited only "in the event that such application for approval is denied, or in any other case where the electronic surveillance is terminated and no order is issued approving the surveillance." (The law is here.)

    In other words, as long as an order is issued a week or a month (or ever) after the tap occurred, then the information gathered can be used, and is not forfeited. Information is not forfeited simply on the basis that "the judge has not yet signed the order when the 72nd hour expires." Information is forfeited only if a judge never signs the order.

    As usual, Hinderaker is a big fat liar.

    Hinderaker argues further that we should be able monitor your number (regarding calls to anyone, apparently), simply on the basis that we found your number on a cell phone that belonged to an alleged bad guy, even though Hinderaker admits that this is not probable cause to believe that you're an agent of a foreign power. Trouble is, this violates FISA. Hinderaker doesn't understand that if the law isn't good enough, the proper solution is to fix the law, not break it.

    Hinderaker can be reached at powerlinefeedback@gmail.com.

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  81. Jukeboxgrad - I started writing a reply to his post this morning and then decided I'd rather write about more interesting things, figuring I'd put it off for a day just to have a 24 hour break from digging through his pompous intellectual deceits. Thank you for doing this - I may just post your comment in its entirety tomorrow with a few added comments.

    I think one reason that Rocket felt compelled to address this issue is because Crooks & Liars - with its 100,000 quite vibrant daily readers - linked both to my post and specifically to your comment, and that undoubtedly sent reams and reams of not-very-demure inquiries his way.

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  82. Anonymous8:27 PM

    Glenn,

    "I may just post your comment in its entirety tomorrow with a few added comments."

    I'm glad you like it. Feel free to use it any way you like, in whole or in part, with or without attribution (and this applies to anything I post on your blog).

    "Crooks & Liars"

    I read C&L, but I hadn't noticed yet. Undoubtedly that was a major factor. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

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  83. Anonymous8:35 PM

    Glenn,

    If you do use the my last paragraph, please fix this little error, in the first sentence of that paragraph.

    "Hinderaker argues further that we should be able monitor"

    ... should obviously be ...

    "Hinderaker argues further that we should be able to monitor"

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  84. Anonymous10:18 PM

    I will attempt to decode various other elements of gibberish Hinderaker has been emitting lately. On 9/6, at 7:30 pm, he posted an article called "Was National Security Compromised?"

    Since that time, he has updated his article four times (as of the time I write this). I think these updates are a response to various people pointing out how dishonest and foolish he is. Trouble is, in his updates he only twists himself further into knots.

    In the main article, he says this: "If the terrorists did know about FISA, they probably also knew that it would take days, weeks or months to obtain a FISA order ... they would not realize that we had the ability to begin intercepting messages coming in to the captured cell phone almost immediately." Hinderaker is claiming that the NYT endangered our security by announcing to the enemy that we had the ability to snoop on them right away, without waiting for a warrant.

    In other words, because Hinderaker is trying to delude his readers into thinking the 72-hour rule doesn't exist, Hinderaker somehow thinks our enemies are just as ignorant and deluded as his readers. Quite an astonishing perspective.

    Later, it seems to dawn on him that other folks have read the law, and it's not possible to continue to pretend (as he has been doing for several weeks) that the 72-hour rule doesn't exist. As a result, he writes an update where he completely reverses himself. Now the problem is not that NYT told the enemy we're doing rapid warrantless surveillance. Scratch that, he says. The problem is that NYT told the enemy that we're doing surveillance, period.

    Here's that incredibly lame assertion, in Hinderaker's own words: "The administration, of course, has not complained that the New York Times damaged our security by revealing that the NSA is carrying out warrantless interception of communications between al Qaeda members overseas and people in the U.S.; the complaint is that the Times disclosed that the NSA is carrying out such interceptions at all."

    In other words, instead of claiming that our enemy is so ignorant that they don't realize we have legal methods of starting surveillance rapidly, now Hinderaker is claiming that our enemy is so ignorant that they don't imagine that we do surveillance at all.

    Of course it's been common knowledge for many years that we eavesdrop on our enemies. The LA Times reported on 9/7/98 that the US "used their communications intercept capacity to pick up calls placed by bin Laden on his Inmarsat satellite phone, despite his apparent use of electronic 'scramblers' " (link). Many, many reports have been published regarding Echelon, which supposedly has massive power to spy on global communications.

    Hinderaker himself (in an effort to suggest that there's nothing new about what Bush is doing) recently pointed to this 60 Minutes transcript (how ironic, Mr. Rathergate himself treating CBS News as a reliable source), which is headlined "ECHELON; WORLDWIDE CONVERSATIONS BEING RECEIVED BY THE ECHELON SYSTEM MAY FALL INTO THE WRONG HANDS AND INNOCENT PEOPLE MAY BE TAGGED AS SPIES."

    Apparently CBS News was committing treason when they told the world (on 2/27/2000) that the "Echelon system" was receiving "worldwide conversations."

    Of course, here's the other stunning bit of illogic: we're repeatedly told (by some) that what Bush did is OK because he didn't do anything Clinton et al didn't already do (e.g., allegedly with Echelon).

    For example, on 12/20, Hinderaker said this: "The Clinton-era 'Echelon' electronic surveillance program went far beyond anything now under discussion."

    On 12/24, Hinderaker said this: "I think the NSA intercepts that are the subject of today's article have been going on for years, if not decades."

    But if Bush is doing nothing new, then the NYT report is old news. If it's old news, it can hardly be a dramatic, enemy-enabling act of treason. Except on Planet Hinderaker.

    And since "the Clinton-era 'Echelon' electronic surveillance program [allegedly] went far beyond anything now under discussion," then it's absurd to suggest, as Hinderaker just did, that "the complaint is that the Times disclosed that the NSA is carrying out such interceptions at all."

    One more thing. Hinderaker claims he has proof that the enemy had no idea we snoop on them: "that the terrorists were unaware of the program is demonstrated by the fact that such calls were being made and intercepted." Of course, this proof is circular. It requires that we assume that the program has indeed harvested lots of important information. Unfortunately, we've seen little or no proof of this. Aside from that, Hinderaker's assertion means nothing. If there are indeed terrorists who are so dumb that they are unaware of what CBS News reported on 2/27/2000 (if they never heard of Echelon, in other words), then there's no reason to believe they're smart enough to be paying attention to what the NYT recently said.

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  85. Anonymous10:45 PM

    It seems pretty clear that W and his cronies are up to some nasty lying again.

    However, one thing I've never understood is why they decided to bypass FISA at all? Their defence of this action is clearly a pile of crap. But if a mechanism existed for them to do exactly as they wished (wiretap domestic calls), why didn't they use that mechanism? People have pointed out many times that a)there is no need to wait for the warrant to be issued since applications can be submitted after the tap is in place and b)there requests are seldom if ever turned down.

    So, while everyone is arguing about whether what they did was legal or not (smoke screen), I'm wondering, what were they up to???

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  86. jukeboxgrad,

    Excellent work. I only hope your dissection of Rocketman's medacity gets the widest possible circulation. Whoever is paying the Hindquarter's salary for services as an advocate ought to know what the quality of the merchandise.

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  87. oops. That should read " ...ought to know the quality of the merchandise."

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  88. Anonymous4:01 AM

    Well, I'll answer my own question (what were W and Co up to when they decided to bypass FISA?) by linking to the long answer to this exact question on powerline:

    http://powerlineblog.com/archives/012770.php

    So, while I still think W is an evil lying dirtbag, the reason he felt he needed to bypass FISA are actually pretty clear.

    Also, this explanation dismisses the whole 72 hour argument against the importance of W's actions (in his opinion). It seems pretty clear that *if* there were an urgent need that FISA was not providing an adequate mechanism for deploying expedited wire taps.

    Of course, like has been pointed out many times, just because the president doesnt like the law certainly doesn't mean he can just ignore it (that he defends his actions as justified even given the inconvenience is almost as scary as the fact that most republicans aren't scared either). However, it also seem pretty unfair to keep pounding on this 72 hour thing in response to the position of the right (which is weak in about 100 other ways anyway so why bother with weak points?)

    Anyway, it seems like arguing about the detailed legality of the issue is sort of missing the bigger picture. Say, for the sake of argument that a) the FISA court was too slow to be useful, b) there really is a legal precedent that allows the president to do this kind of thing. Say, for the sake of argument that Bush did nothing wrong in a technical sense.

    These are the things people have been mostly arguing about but if we put them aside for a moment (or conceed them) I think there are much more important issues of how our government is supposed to work, issue of checks and balances that even most right wing jackasses can probably agree with. I'm amazed frankly at all this squabbling over why and how Bush did what he did. So what if it is legal. It shouldn't be even if it is. If it is legal then that is a loophole that flies in the face of everything our government is supposed to be based on and that loophole should be closed. It is most terrifying to me that W and others are satisfied to say that they were technically in the right.

    There is an important philosophical battle that they will have won if they get away with this. They will have succeeded in changing the spirit of the constitution and our governmental structure which is the thing that has made us, dispite our flaws as americans, such a great and long lived democracy.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Anonymous3:15 PM

    Philo,

    "Does Jukeboxgrad have a blog of his/her own?"

    Thanks for the flattering question. No, I don't have my own blog, and it's very unlikely that will change, for various reasons. I am very grateful that I can visit a place like this.

    However, if you google my distinctive handle, the first result is my Kos diaries, which appear on a very erratic schedule (although some of the old ones might interest you, especially the ones directed at Hinderaker).

    Please keep in mind that there's someone else who uses the exact same handle while posting on Springsteen-related sites. That's not me.

    Scroll down on that google search and you'll see many examples of how the hosts of righty blogs don't like visitors who are familiar with the truth (the few righty blogs that accept comments, that is).

    I will probably continue to comment here at Glenn's excellent blog, as time permits. I very much appreciate Glenn's hospitality.
    ---
    anon,

    "It seems pretty clear that *if* there were an urgent need that FISA was not providing an adequate mechanism for deploying expedited wire taps."

    It seems pretty clear that you *are* taking at face value the exact Power Line article that I thoroughly dismantled in this exact thread, exactly 8 comments above yours. You have apparently paid no attention to what I said. You can find my analysis here.

    If you think my arguments are incorrect, please say why. Otherwise, I think you should refrain from statements such as "the FISA court was too slow to be useful" and "the reason he felt he needed to bypass FISA are actually pretty clear."

    ReplyDelete
  90. Anonymous4:43 PM

    Fine fine fine. You are right, I didn't read your "analysis" and I may have spoken too quickly. It does appear that the case against the 72 hours was overstated and misleading (from what you say anyway, I'm sure others would find "lies" in your explanation also).

    However, your "analysis" does not dimsiss the fact that operating withing the confines of the FISA court, even with the 72 hour provision, is cumbersome and less than efficient. Otherwise, Bush and Co would have simply used the proper channels, by applying for a warrant through the FISA court, and none of us would be talking about this situation at all.

    Right? Really, right? I mean has anyone suggested that these warrants were being skipped because they would have been denied? Or has anyone suggested that these taps were being used for purposes other than monitoring people connected with Al Queda??

    Of course the point is that we can't really know why or how these taps were applied because there was no judicial oversight and that is the really scary part. I agree.

    However, you have to look at the real motives and they do appear to be just that FISA was too much of a pain in the ass. Is that justification? No. But it does sort of render the 72 hour question a moot point doesn't it?

    I mean, what are we trying to accomplish here? Are we just trying to catch Bush on any technicality so that we can take his ass down? (I'm not against that by the way but it is hard to defend against allegations of partisan politics when when doing so). Or are we trying to genuinely understand the issue and decide if bypassing FISA was in our best interest or not?

    I think it most definitely was not in our best interest. In fact it is a huge and scary threat to our government and freedoms it is so not in our best interests. But it is a big deal because it represents the intentional removal of important checks and balances from our government and the intentional removal of the principal of checks and balances from the publics mind. That is a big deal. The 72 hour thing is a red herring

    Please explain to me why this 72 hour thing is so important? I think that by making such a large issue about this particular point is really putting a lot of debate ammo into the hands of the right because the 72 hour thing is a)complicated, b)not the real issue.

    Remember the OJ Simpson case? Remember how afterward everyone said what a terrible mistake it was for prosecution to allow OJ to put on the glove? Same thing. Who freaking cares about the glove!!

    ReplyDelete
  91. Anon,

    People are focusing on the 72 hours argument because it is one of the primary canards being raised by the Bushites to cloud the issue. If you think that you have the option of ignoring the question because you see it as a smokescreen I think you are very much mistaken.

    The fact that an argument is phony and being raised for no purpose other than to confuse the debate makes refuting it more, not less important. You'll never get to the wheat if you don't separate the chaff.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Anonymous8:14 PM

    "People are focusing on the 72 hours argument because it is one of the primary canards being raised by the Bushites to cloud the issue. If you think that you have the option of ignoring the question because you see it as a smokescreen I think you are very much mistaken."

    I'm sorry but this is one of the primary canards being raised by the left to attack Bush with. Bushites are not using this to cloud the issue. In fact one of the main points of the original post was that they were ignoring this issue, not the other way around.

    I agree that it is clouding the issue however my point was that it is actually people on the left going after blood that are unintentionally creating confusion surrounding this issue by continually bringing it up.

    Not only is banging on the 72 hour thing creating confusion, it is allowing the Bushites to argue about something that is legitimately arguable and thereby escape culpability for the wrongs they really are committing. Additionally, and I still stick by this, it is sort of disingenuous on the part of people making it a big deal on the left because the idea that the 72 hour clause makes using FISA just as happy and convenient as can be just doesn't hold water (not totally anyway, not enough for it to be a legitimate thing to call for people's heads over)

    ReplyDelete
  93. Anonymous1:27 AM

    anon,

    "I'm sure others would find 'lies' in your explanation"

    English translation: "if I could think for myself, I'd be able to prove you're a liar." Very convincing. If you can offer a substantive challenge to what I said, you should. Otherwise, your remark is unwarranted.

    "operating withing the confines of the FISA court, even with the 72 hour provision, is cumbersome and less than efficient. Otherwise, Bush and Co would have simply used the proper channels"

    English translation: "I'm going to accept Bush's lame alibi, even though it's been proven to be transparently bogus."

    "I mean has anyone suggested that these warrants were being skipped because they would have been denied? Or has anyone suggested that these taps were being used for purposes other than monitoring people connected with Al Queda??"

    Right now, I think answers to those questions are not clear. A few other things are sufficiently clear, though. Bush broke the law. Hinderaker is a propagandist. And you're confused.

    "FISA was too much of a pain in the ass"

    As Bush once said, the job would be a lot easier if he was a dictator. Looks like he's doing everything he can to make his job easier. Trouble is, the president (like the rest of us) is required to obey the law even if he thinks it's "a pain in the ass."

    "But it does sort of render the 72 hour question a moot point doesn't it?"

    No, because the 72-hour rule proves that Congress bent over backward to make rapid surveillance quite possible, with no need to break the law. That's why people like Hinderaker were doing their best to make sure that people like you never hear about the 72-hour rule.

    "I mean, what are we trying to accomplish here?"

    We're trying to keep a republic from turning into a monarchy.

    "are we trying to genuinely understand the issue and decide if bypassing FISA was in our best interest or not?"

    Setting the precedent that it's OK for a president to secretly break a law because he think's it's "a pain in the ass" is not in our best interests, unless you're a monarchist.

    If there's a problem with FISA (or with any other law), the proper solution is to fix the law, not break it.

    "explain to me why this 72 hour thing is so important"

    Bush's central defense is that FISA is too slow. One can swallow this lie only if one is ignorant about the 72-hour rule. Therefore people like Hinderaker have been working overtime to create the impression that there is no such thing as the 72-hour rule. He has certainly succeeded in one thing: confusing you.

    The fact that Bush is breaking the law is important. The fact that he has a chorus of highly educated professional bamboozlers backing him up is also important. The fact that you personally have been bamboozled is not that important.

    "the idea that the 72 hour clause makes using FISA just as happy and convenient as can be just doesn't hold water"

    No one is claiming that "the 72 hour clause makes using FISA just as happy and convenient as can be." The fact is, however, that FISA provides a means to setup a wiretap very rapidly, and without waiting for the approval of a FISC judge. This is a simple and important fact that people like Bush and Hinderaker are trying to deny. And you too, I guess, for reasons that escape me.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous3:44 AM

    I mean has anyone suggested that these warrants were being skipped because they would have been denied?

    Sure. Lots of people have suggested that this is exactly the reason the administration bypassed FISA -- that they wanted a surveillance program they were confident wouldn't pass muster for a warrant. They certainly didn't do it because getting a FISA warrant would take too long.

    The question that begs, of course, is what sort of program did the administration have in mind? Given the breadth of the executive power asserted by the administration, it's difficult to imagine what they would have considered off-limits.

    -- Califlander

    ReplyDelete
  95. Anonymous6:40 AM

    jukeboxgrad, hi.

    Your rebuttal of my post is, fankly, quite hilarious. Man are you defensive! I think it is pretty funny that (an believe me I am no Bush fan) you and I are largely on the same page yet you feel you need to employ some pretty nasty debate tactics to take down what I have said.

    I'll give a few examples of you (someone who I almost certainly totally agree with regarding all the larger issues of Bush and his crew) being totally disengenuous and intentionally misleading in your rebuttal of my post (which was only debating a specific point of your argument, not the general message):

    "I'm sure others would find 'lies' in your explanation"

    English translation: "if I could think for myself, I'd be able to prove you're a liar."


    Wow. Nasty. You infer from this line that a) I am really a Bush lover in disguise, b) I think you are lying, and c) I have no ability to think for myself (I like the last one since it is really just a plain old insult and has very little to do with anything except your need to kick me in the balls for disagreeing with you).

    It is pretty impressive that you have come up with all that after just one line since I have said none of those things explicitly!

    I am being sarcastic of course! You have totally misunderstood me in your eagerness to shut up anyone who disagrees with you. All I was expressing was my frustration with the unfortunate reality that all these arguments are endlessly attackable and nitpickable despite whether they are generally true or false. It is unfortunate but true. When I said others would find lies in your explanation I was just trying to get past the petty details of the case since, right or wrong you should remember that the entire point of my post was that we were wasting lots of time and energy on these details.

    Another example is the way you repeatedly refer to "people like you", etc as if to lump me in with the idiot right wing "cult of bush" crowd that I plainly rail agaist (although doing so is apparently not enough for you if I disagree with you on the specifics of how they are evil). Look, be fair, did I actually say anything about not having heard of the 72 hour clause at all? You imply that is the case but for you to say so is a pretty unfair implication with no basis in reality at all. For you to imply that me disagreeing with you is a function only of my ignorance is a pretty below-the-belt attack on my personally. These are the tactics you deride the right for. Why don't you make a bigger effort to stay above these tactics yourself? Not doing so just hurts our cause (because, yes, dispite your reluctance to accept this fact, I too am a vehement bush detractor.)

    Finally, you just regurgitate a bunch of your first incoherent tirade on why the 72-hour rule doesn't dismiss Bush as if that is further rebutting my post. Look, can you understand this, I said "for the sake of argument" we should get over the 72 hour detail so that we could get to the real issues of Bush defending his actions and how that undermines the structure of checks and balances that is fundamental to the character of our government and way of life!

    You make it sound like me minimizing this issue was the same thing as me saying it was ok! I say exactly the opposite very very explicitly but you feel like you need to omit that quote (dispite cherry picking many others very carefully to support your rebuttal). Here it is:

    However, you have to look at the real motives and they do appear to be just that FISA was too much of a pain in the ass. Is that justification? No. But it does sort of render the 72 hour question a moot point doesn't it?

    (Really unbelievable, you use every bit of this quote *in sections* except the part in bold where it is tied together as a rhetorical point and where I make it plain that FISA being a pain in the ass excuses nothing. Very carful editing job. Hmm reminds me of some people who are good at cherry picking quotes... who am I thinking of....? Hmmm.)

    Look, I know you've gotten a lot of sunshine up your ass today because you wrote a nice attack on the powerline guy and a lot of people commended you for that. But if you are genuinely concerned about these issues and you are genuinely trying to get people on board then you should refrain from employing the exact same unethical and slanderous argument tactics you decry in the right against people who are on your side and who were only disagreeing with you on a subtlty of your argument and someone who said repeatedly that overall they 100% agree that Bush and Co are lying there asses off and behaving totally unethically and dangerously!!!

    (Jesus!)

    ReplyDelete
  96. Anonymous11:58 AM

    anon,

    "pretty nasty debate tactics"

    I reallize this is your idea of a non-nasty debate tactic: "I'm sure others would find 'lies' in your explanation also." Claiming this is sarcasm is a weak excuse.

    "all these arguments are endlessly attackable and nitpickable"

    Only to the extent that one is unfamiliar with facts, and/or doesn't care about facts. Unfortunately I still see no reason not you place you in one or both of those categories.

    "For you to imply that me disagreeing with you is a function only of my ignorance"

    It's not about you disagreeing with me. It's about you apparently not grasping that the question of FISA speed is at the heart of the matter.

    "I was just trying to get past the petty details of the case"

    What you also don't seem to grasp is that Bush gets away with what he does because his chorus is effective at lying about what you call "the petty details of the case."

    "we were wasting lots of time and energy on these details"

    If you think setting the record straight is a waste of time, then I think you'd be well-advised to ignore anything I write.

    "we should get over the 72 hour detail so that we could get to the real issues of Bush defending his actions and how that undermines the structure of checks and balances"

    If you have anything original to contribute on the important subject of checks and balances, I'm all ears. I've said nothing to stop you or discourage you from making such a contribution. But you haven't, yet, as far as I can tell.

    "I too am a vehement bush detractor."

    For a "vehement bush detractor," you do a terrific job of supportively parroting some of his major talking points ("operating withing the confines of the FISA court, even with the 72 hour provision, is cumbersome and less than efficient. Otherwise, Bush and Co would have simply used the proper channels ... you have to look at the real motives and they do appear to be just that FISA was too much of a pain in the ass").

    The fact that you're inclined to completely rule out even the possibility of a sinister motive on Bush's part doesn't make you much of a "vehement bush detractor."

    "sunshine up your ass"

    It would be better if you could figure out how to express yourself without mentioning parts of my body.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Here's a 2004 quote Bush made concerning "spying." It is from an article in the Colorado Daily ---

    Quote from Bush in 2004 -- "A wiretap requires a court order," President Bush declared in a statement in 2004. He added, "When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order when we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand [that] constitutional guarantees are in place... because we value the Constitution."

    ReplyDelete
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    ReplyDelete
  99. Anonymous6:45 PM

    Glenn,

    you cover this general issue better than anybody that I know of in America. I try to cite your pieces all the time. But I'm missing something here:

    John moves on to next argue that the terrorists didn’t know about this thing called "FISA" until the Times story treasonously spilled the beans and told them about it. Honestly, that's his argument:


    These emailers [asking John how the Times story could have harmed national security] assume that al Qaeda members know about FISA. I think that is extremely unlikely. Very few Americans knew anything about FISA before the current controversy arose.


    So the diabolical, unprecedentedly dangerous terrorists who pose an existential threat to the U.S. that is equal to or greater than that posed by the Soviet Union are, in John’s mind, so uninformed, unsophisticated and stupid that they never heard of or knew about the 30-year old public law that defines the powers of the U.S. Government to engage in surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes. They never heard of FISA or knew anything about it until the Times published its story.


    if they didnt know about FISA, this undermines his argument, because it would mean that they didnt even now about any potential restrictions, bc that is all FISA is.

    the reverse of this (that they knew FISA inside and out), that you cover, brilliantly, next, or even just that they were aware of it in general, does not mean that they would know what was being tapped. presumabaly ALL, with warrants in advance (even if they dint know about the post covert action 3 day clause). that is what eavesdropping is for.

    powerlines' arguments are so absurd that in a first year law class of 300 studnets, not one would begin to make them. if they did on a test, they would flunk out of law school.

    yet this blog continues on, popularly.

    they are three lawyers. they are rational. but when it comes to a policy positions of the far right, they will defend it, their own belief twisting logic beyond recognition in the process, if necessary.

    I hope you see this comment. I am going to make this point elsewhere. again, you write brillianty. but the facts are that most of the blogosphere, despite its now common induction into mainstream media by way of reference, only reaches a very select target audience. therefore is is having less impact on shaping national debate than could otherwise be the case. Im talking of course, about the specifics.

    I use this seminal issue of our times, the exectuvive branch's profound LEGAL argument that, in essence, it can not only do whatever it believes it should in the name of fighting terrorism, but that it is the sole arbiter of whether or not it will, and the sole arbiter of whether or not it will keep it secret. it is, in essnence, on issues that it it believes relate to "national security" (which under this same legal argument apply equally to anything) the exact same powers of a dictator.

    this is pretty basic stuff. before partisanship strode in, I cant imagine one out of the 110 fellow students with me back in constitutiona law class not realizing how utterly propersterous it is.

    YET look across the nation. that is not the way it is being projected by the media, and in the mainstream debate. why?

    again, despite the importance of the blogosphere, and the brilliance of some of those who cover these issues, and the reams of cogent analysis and excellent information, again, such fundamenta, nececessary points largely reach a relatively limited, self selected, targeted audience.

    thus, what trancends all of this, are the considerations addressed right here.

    very few democrats get this. most disagree vehemently with it, which is consistent with exactly the same political (as opposed to policy) perspective that has led to their relatively easy domination by the far right wing in America the last several years, and led, as a result, to such outrageous unconstitutional and anit democratic power grabs as the one illustrated by eavesdropping and related issues, and of which you so brilliantly write.

    ReplyDelete