This [Will's argument that FISA "was written to regulate wartime surveillance"] is patently untrue. FISA came into being to regulate peacetime surveillance by the federal government, as an antidote to Nixonian abuses of power that had nothing to do with the conduct of war (emphasis in original).
Initially, one must note that Captain Ed’s claim that "FISA came into being to regulate peacetime surveillance" -- a claim pervasive among Bush followers -- is just factually wrong. Indeed, it is so transparently wrong, and in such an obvious way, that it genuinely amazes that two months into the NSA scandal, someone like him, who pontificates on such matters on a daily basis, is so uninformed about the very law at the center of this scandal.
Section 1811 of FISA happens to be entitled "Authorization during time of war," and it expressly does what Captain Ed and so many other Bush followers falsely claim it does not do – namely, regulate eavesdropping during times of war:
Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for a period not to exceed fifteen calendar days following a declaration of war by the Congress.
How can someone argue -- as so many Bush followers do -- that FISA was intended to regulate only peacetime surveillance when there is a clause in that law expressly regulating surveillance during times of war? On its face, FISA is a law that governs how the Executive can eavesdrop on Americans both in times of peace and in times of war.
Moreover, contrary to the notion that we were concerned about unchecked eavesdropping on Americans only during peacetime, it is worth pointing out that there was a war during the Nixon Administration. It was called the Vietnam War. Many of the documented eavesdropping abuses which led to FISA occurred during this war. As a country, we enacted FISA precisely because we wanted to make it a criminal offense for the Federal Government to eavsedrop on Americans without judicial oversight -- whether during peacetime or war. The law could not be any clearer about that. To claim that FISA grew out of concerns about eavesdropping abuses only during peacetime is inarguably false.
But beyond these self-evident factual errors in Captain Ed’s argument is a more fundamental and pervasive falsehood which is being peddled with increasing frequency to justify the Administration’s law-breaking. It is the notion that restraints on the Executive Branch generally, such as those mandated by FISA or ones prohibiting the incarceration of Americans without due process, are now obsolete because they were the by-product of some sort of peaceful, enemy-less, utopian era which no longer exists.
This world-view is staggering in its revisionism. FISA was enacted in 1978. I did not think there were many people, if there were any at all, who actually believe that 1978 was a time of "peace." Most people -- and I would have thought this was true particularly for "conservatives" -- tend to see that period as the height of a war which we call the "Cold War," where we faced an "Evil Empire" trying to achieve world domination in order to impose its tyrannical ideology. In fact, we spent the entire decade after the enactment of FISA engaged in a massive build-up of our military forces, and we even tried to find a way to build a space-based shield around our country in order to repel incoming missiles. Accordingly, how can it possibly be argued that Americans banned our Government from eavesdropping on us in secret only during times of peace?
Here is what Presidential candidate Ronald Reagan said on March 31, 1976, a mere two years before the enactment of FISA:
But there is one problem which must be solved or everything else is meaningless. I am speaking of the problem of our national security. Our nation is in danger, and the danger grows greater with each passing day. Like an echo from the past, the voice of Winston Churchill’s grandson was heard recently in Britain’s House of Commons warning that the spread of totalitarianism threatens the world once again and the democracies are wandering without aim.
And here is what President Reagan told the nation on March 23, 1983, when first announcing his "Star Wars" program:
The budget request that is now before the Congress has been trimmed to the limits of safety. Further deep cuts cannot be made without seriously endangering the security of the Nation. . . .
For 20 years the Soviet Union has been accumulating enormous military might. They didn't stop when their forces exceeded all requirements of a legitimate defensive capability. And they haven't stopped now. During the past decade and a half, the Soviets have built up a massive arsenal of new strategic nuclear weapons -- weapons that can strike directly at the United States. . . .
As the Soviets have increased their military power, they've been emboldened to extend that power. They're spreading their military influence in ways that can directly challenge our vital interests and those of our allies.
Some people may still ask: Would the Soviets ever use their formidable military power? Well, again, can we afford to believe they won't? There is Afghanistan. And in Poland, the Soviets denied the will of the people and in so doing demonstrated to the world how their military power could also be used to intimidate. ...
The Soviet Union is acquiring what can only be considered an offensive military force. They have continued to build far more intercontinental ballistic missiles than they could possible need simply to deter an attack. Their conventional forces are trained and equipped not so much to defend against an attack as they are to permit sudden, surprise offensives of their own.
That does not exactly sound like the harmonious time of peace which Captain Ed and others describe in trying to explain why FISA and similar restraints on executive power were intended to exist only in the time of peace in which they were created. In fact, people like Captain Ed love to regale us with heroic tales of how Ronald Reagan vanquished our enemy and won the war. How odd to hear from these same circles that 1978 was a time of harmonious safety and luxurious peace such that FISA was adopted only because we were not facing a deadly enemy.
This is an oft-overlooked point that is vitally important. The Soviet Union was an infinitely stronger, more formidable, more sophisticated enemy with far vaster resources than Al Qaeda could dream of possessing. And Communists, we were always told, employed their own deadly version of "sleeper cells" by systematically implanting foreign agents and even recruiting American citizens on U.S. soil to work on their behalf, including infiltrating the highest levels of the U.S. Government with their agents and sympathizers.
And yet, in the midst of all of these internal and external threats, the Congress enacted and the President signed into a law a statute permitting eavesdropping for foreign intelligence purposes only with judicial oversight. And more generally, during the four decades during which America fought the "Cold War" -- a war which was always depicted by both parties as posing an existential threat to our country -- no President ever seized, nor did Americans ever bequeath, the power to act contrary to Congressional laws and outside of the parameters of judicial "interference."
The single greatest myth which this Administration has peddled – and which a vocal and frightened minority have ingested – is that we are at some sort of unique place in our history where we face a threat greater and more formidable than any we faced previously, such that the principles which have guided our republic can and should be tossed aside as obsolete relics of a more peaceful and less threatening era. That is exactly what Captain Ed just argued as to why FISA can be disregarded as a quaint relic of the past.
There are numerous, glaring deficiencies in this argument. FISA was first enacted in 1978 but was amended and thereby re-affirmed in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, when the Administration requested changes to the law which Congress then made, causing the President to praise FISA this way on October 27, 2001:
The new law [amending FISA] recognizes the realities and dangers posed by the modern terrorist. It will help us to prosecute terrorist organizations--and also to detect them before they strike. . . .
Surveillance of communications is another essential method of law enforcement. But for along time, we have been working under laws [FISA] written in the era of rotary telephones. Under the new law [which amends FISA], officials may conduct court-ordered surveillance of all modern forms of communication used by terrorists. . . .
After 9/11, in the midst of our war against Islamic terrorism, the President himself argued that FISA is a modern and sufficient tool to enable us to conduct surveillance on the modern terrorist. Shouldn't Bush followers be precluded from claiming that FISA is obsolete and incapable of enabling surveillance of modern terrorist communications when the President said exactly the opposite?
And even if all of this were not true, we do not have a system of government (at least we never did before) where the President has the right to violate a law which he and his followers believe has become "obsolete" as a result of subsequent developments. Even if FISA were the obsolete by-product of a Golden Time of Peace, as the President’s apologists claim, it is still the "law," and the obsolescence of a law does not even remotely justify deliberate violations of it. No matter how many times one points that out, it never ceases to amaze that, at bottom, this scandal -- which has been burdened with all sorts of obfuscating legalisms and complexities -- arose from nothing more complicated than the fact this Administration believes it has the right to violate laws which it does not think are good laws.
But more important than all of those facts, what is far more fundamental is the defining American precept that a strong nation affirms its core principles most vigorously precisely when it faces external threats. We are a strong nation because we have adhered to the rule of law and our founding principles even as we defeated enemies far more formidable and threatening than a ragtag group of Islamic fanatics. Of all the radical changes which this Administration is attempting to bring about, the most threatening and corrupt is the notion that we need to fundamentally transform not just our system of government, but also our national character, all in the name of fighting Al Qaeda.
One can only shake his head in disbelief. If the Bush-cultists fail to even bother reading what they are opining on, what hope is there that they will ever wake up?
ReplyDeleteAbsolute power corrupts absolutely. Just check all dictatorships in history.
We have been at war almost without interruption since 1941. Beginning with the start of the 20th Century, we have been at war for about 90% of our history.
ReplyDeleteI want to scream every time I hear Bushies arguing that all of this crap about oversight and warrants and abiding by the law is not for war. We are always at war, and according to them, we will be for a good long time. If we can throw away all of these principles whnever we are at "war," that is the definitive exception that eats up the rule.
Some countries do have a war time exception to their constitution. We don't. Do they ever give any thought to why that is?
And even if all of this were not true, we do not have a system of government (at least we never did before) where the President has the right to violate a law which he and his followers believe has become "obsolete" as a result of subsequent developments.
ReplyDeleteYou are correct Glenn. We "never did before" but now America has become something I no longer recognize. It is amazing the speed at which we have forgotten ourselves and lost our soul. We never *did*, or at the very least never approved, of many things that we now condone (not to mention actively participate in) as a nation. Torture, Murder, Preemptive acts of War, Lying, etc. I do not believe in *this America*. I do not want *this America*. Anyone who does doesn't want America - they want something else and are making their best effort to get it.
Chris claims: People living in Eastern Bloc countries--at least those I've spoken with and live next to--have no recollection of Reagan doing much of anything to help them out at all. Much of the progress made in the East was a result of local organizing and political courage on the part of leaders in Prague, Budapest, and so on.
ReplyDeleteThat is certainly not my experience. Reagan is venerated by many in the former Soviet bloc; many worship him as their savior. One example (and there are many others) would be Dr. Jamie Glazov, who had this to say when interviewing two premier Cold War historians a the History News Network:
As an émigré from the Soviet Union, whose parents were dissidents and were persecuted by the KGB, I grew up in this society completely bewildered and baffled by the Left. From a very young age, I was shocked to observe leftists minimizing the evils of communism and painting their own society as not only just as evil, but even more evil than the Cold War enemy.
Throughout my life, I argued with myriad leftists about communism, trying to convince them of its perniciousness. During my doctoral years in the field of Cold War History, I spent an inordinate amount of time debating with my colleagues about who was responsible for the Cold War.
My colleagues, of course, always howled with one another about my views.
I remember how they reserved special mockery for Reagan’s reference to the Soviet system as an “Evil Empire.” As I continue to reflect on what happened to my own family under communism (i.e. both of my grandfathers were murdered by the Soviet secret police), and what it means that communism extinguished 100 million lives in the twentieth century, I remain befuddled by what exactly was so laughable about Reagan’s reference.
It ill behooves those of us who rightly criticize Bush's illegal actions to deny the reality of true evil, or to give credit to Reagan where it is due.
Glenn, regarding your citing of the war time powers section of FISA: Congress has not declared war. Pretty funny, huh?
ReplyDeleterh said:
ReplyDeleteIt is amazing the speed at which we have forgotten ourselves and lost our soul. We never *did*, or at the very least never approved, of many things that we now condone (not to mention actively participate in) as a nation. Torture, Murder, Preemptive acts of War, Lying, etc. I do not believe in *this America*. I do not want *this America*. Anyone who does doesn't want America - they want something else and are making their best effort to get it.
There is nothing surprising about it. Just check your history. The rise of every authoritarian regime has taken the same path. Nobody tells the people "I am a dictator". One is only a dictator de facto.
Not that I think that the US is a dictatorship. Only that we currently have a de facto lack of checks and balances that prevent one.
If (a big if) the Dems gain power again in one of the two branches (executive of legislative), then we'll go back to a better government, struggling with corruption. But until then, it quacks a lot like a duck.
Great post. What you describe is a total abdication of perspective on the part of the Bush Cultist. In part, that is a byproduct of a corporate media determined to censor the views of the rest of the world from Americans just as it has censored the War in Iraq. Below is one of the best observations I have found on this phenomenon. The writer is Eric Alterman and the piece can be found at his blog on MSNBC.
ReplyDeleteQuoting Alterman: So here’s how the world works. The U.S. media keeps the country in the dark about things everybody else in the world knows, then Americans, in their ignorance, vote for people who promise to do things that make no sense whatever, except in the context of their own (understandably) confused notions about what might make sense. Take for instance, this invasion of Iraq, which to be fair, was never really that popular, but was always far more popular than it should have been. Because people were deliberately misinformed on its relative level of popularity by the Bush administration and by Fox News (See the survey by the Program on Policy Attitudes if you doubt this.), they have a hard time understanding why in the world everybody hates us, and think it’s because of “our freedoms” rather than because, say, we pretend to liberate people but we actually torture them.
I got to thinking the above when I read in Today’s Papers this morning that:
Everybody mentions another batch of photos showing abuse of detainees at Abu Ghraib back in 2003. The photos, which were broadcast by on Australian TV, show plenty of blood as well as men with fresh burn marks and welts. There are also images of six corpses, though it's not clear how they died.
So far as TP sees, none of the papers run any of the photos. The Post points out that it has had the images and "hundreds more" since 2004. As the WP's story notes, the paper's editor explained backed then: "We are going to publish only those images that give readers essential information. Many of the images are so shocking and in such bad taste, especially the extensive nudity, that they are not publishable in our newspaper or on our Web site." You can see the photos here and here.
Nobody puts the photos story on Page One. But the Wall Street Journal, which is the only paper to at least go high with its coverage, says "satellite television stations throughout the Muslim world are airing the new footage almost continuously."
There has never been an independent investigation of the abuses at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere. In fact, the Journal says there is "still no reliable information on the numbers or identities of prisoners who died in U.S. custody."
Get it now? The whole world is looking at these pictures and they are inspiring who knows how many Arabs to enlist in the jihad against the United States (just as the CIA warned us before this lunatic war). But Americans are blissfully ignorant of the evil perpetrated in their name and hence, make the same mistakes over and over.
But, there has never been a declaration of war.
ReplyDeleteUS Constitution, Article 1, Section 8 imbues Congress with the power to declare war. No resolution declaring war has passed the congress since the 1940s.
I apologize if there's something I'm missing, but there seems to me a grand disconnect.
The framers of the constitution understood the corrupting influence of power and did everything they could to guard against it. it doesn't matter whose "team" your on. can you imagine the howling that would be howling on if it were Janet Reno who was claiming the right to wiretap without oversight.
ReplyDelete(Actually we don't need to imagine it, we can remember it.) Anyone remember the "clipper chip"?
This battle is of crucial impoortance because whatever the result, it will affect the stucture of power in this country for decades to come.
But, there has never been a declaration of war.
ReplyDeleteEven Gonzales stressed when he testified that there has been no declaration of war, only an authorization to use force, which, as he testified, is substantively different.
But I think they're using "war" metaphorically, even though they don't think so. And, to be fair, we did fight the Vietnam War, the Korean War, and Gulf War I all without declarations of war. I don't think anyone disputes that those were "wars" notwithstanding the lack of a Congressional declaration (as the Constitution requires).
But grant the argument that we are at "war" in whatever sense that is meant. And we're going to be at "war" forever - the next 30 years, the "Long War" all of that.
To say that FISA and similar restrictions on the government don't apply in "war" is patently false, given the plain language of the law regulating eavesdropping during wartime.
But far worse than being merely false, this theory is incomparably destructive to everything we are as a nation, since this "war" which justifies all of this discarding of our principles will, by their own reckoning, last basically forever.
Isn’t it interesting how the rhetoric of the far right hasn’t changed at all in those many years, and people who were concerned about a “nuclear winter” were dismissed as, yes, wait for it, Useful idiots.
ReplyDelete…Dredging up hundreds of damning quotations and other hard evidence, including the testimony of former Communists, she makes it clear that it was the crucial propaganda assistance of Western -- chiefly American -- liberals that kept the Cold War going as long as it did, costing millions their lives and freedom.
This book also explores: ”How the 9/11 attacks brought out the same "useful idiot" syndromes in liberals that characterized them during the Cold War -- especially the reflex to "blame America first"
It’s the same “liberals are weenies” psychological propaganda that they exploit today. Only Republicans are macho enough to protects us.
Rummy was in the Reagan Administration (which did circumvent the law in Iran-Contra) but where was Cheney? He’s the crucial component of lawlessness, unchecked power and the imperial presidency:
"He's living in a time warp," said Bruce Fein, a constitutional lawyer and Reagan administration official. "The great irony is Bush inherited the strongest presidency of anyone since Franklin Roosevelt, and Cheney acts as if he's still under the constraints of 1973 or 1974."
Sen. John E. Sununu (R-N.H.) said: "The vice president may be the only person I know of that believes the executive has somehow lost power over the last 30 years."
Glen asked:
ReplyDeleteSection 1811 of FISA happens to be entitled "Authorization during time of war," and it expressly does what Captain Ed and so many other Bush followers falsely claim it does not do – namely, regulate eavesdropping during times of war:
Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for a period not to exceed fifteen calendar days following a declaration of war by the Congress.
How can someone argue -- as so many Bush followers do -- that FISA was intended to regulate only peacetime surveillance when there is a clause in that law expressly regulating surveillance during times of war? On its face, FISA is a law that governs how the Executive can eavesdrop on Americans both in times of peace and in times of war.
This is elementary...
The AUMF and a declaration of war are two different animals.
A declaration of war is simply a one line resolution of Congress which says the US declares war on ____. There is no language in a declaration of war speaking of a grant of authority to the President to do anything. Thus, under a declaration of war, section 1811 is expressly activated and there is no additional language which arguably amends FISA.
However, the AUMF at issue does have express and very expansive language giving the President nearly carte blanche power to use the incidents of military force, of which enemy intelligence gathering is clearly one. There is no mention of a declaration of war in the AUMF.
Now, you can make a reasonable argument that an AUMF is effectively a declaration of war and activates section 1811. That makes sense.
However, the carte blanche authority the AUMF provides the President removes all FISA restrictions concerning enemy intelligence gathering, including section 1811.
The principle that the latter statute controls the former is first year law school material...
However, the carte blanche authority the AUMF provides the President removes all FISA restrictions concerning enemy intelligence gathering, including section 1811.
ReplyDeleteMy post has nothing to do with the AUMF exemption argument. I've addressed that at length. Even Bush supporters have largely given up on the truly inane notion that the AUMF was intended by Congress to provide an exemption to FISA - but that isn't the point that anyone is discussing.
The discussion is about the claim - advanced by Captain Ed by echoed by most Bush followers --that FISA is obsolete because it wasn't intended to regulate eavesdropping during wartime - a claim negated both by the plain language of the statue and by the historical circumstances in which the statute was created.
We enacted FISA in the midst of battling a genuinely formidible threat, rendering frivolous the claim that it was only some quaint relic of our peaceful past. Your comment has nothing to do with anything that is being discussed.
Breaking down a Capt. Ed post?
ReplyDeleteSeriously Glenn, this is what's considered low hanging fruit.
Breaking down a Capt. Ed post?
ReplyDeleteSeriously Glenn, this is what's considered low hanging fruit.
The argument made by Captian Ed - that FISA was enacted only because we were at peace and the fact that we are at war renders its restrictions obsolete - is one of the principal defenses raised by the Admininstration to justify its disregarding of not just FISA but a whole host of other laws. Captain Ed onl articulated the view; he didn't invent it.
Glenn: In light of Cheney's "authority" to classify and the wording of Bush's grant of authority to the office of VP, where does this put Cheney in his wartime powers to overstep laws such as FISA? Do we now have a Pres & a VP who claim authority to run amuck?
ReplyDeleteBart:
ReplyDeleteThe AUMF was passed in September, 2001. The PATRIOT act was passed in October, 2001 (or November?) containing a section explicitly amending FISA.
The quesion is: If the AUMF was intended to allow the executive branch to circumvent the FISA courts, then why was the PATRIOT act section amending FISA necessary at all?
The answer is that the AUMF was not intended to exempt the executive branch from FISA in any way. At best, it could be considered a "declaration of war" which allowed the executive to conduct warrantless surveillance for 15 days. But only for 15 days.
Cheers.
It seems there is a legal dispute as to whether the war language in FISA is even relevant.
ReplyDeleteFrom Wikpedia:
However, in a third case, the special review court for FISA, the equivalent of a Circuit Court Of Appeals, opined differently should FISA limit the President's inherent authority for warrantless searches in the foreign intelligence area. In In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717, 742 (Foreign Intel. Surv. Ct. of Rev. 2002) the special court stated “[A]ll the other courts to have decided the issue [have] held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information . . . . We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President’s constitutional power.”
Anonymous, don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia.
ReplyDeleteNote: Congressional Staffer Edits
The background noise in this issue -- and also the issue of detention &c. -- is the "unitary executive theory." The theory posits that the executive branch has not only inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless surveillance, but also authority to interpret for itself the constitution. And that its own interpretation is equally valid as that of the legislative and judicial.
ReplyDeleteSo the question changes from "does the executive have inherent authority to conduct warrantless spying?" to "does either congress or the supreme court have constitutional authority to tell the executive what their inherent authority is?"
President Bush has used the phrase "unitary executive" in his signing statements 95 times, so it has become an issue worth debating.
Thank you for communicating this development. I thought all was lost once Congress decided not to push the issue. There are rays of hope.
ReplyDeleteGlenn said:
ReplyDeleteThe discussion is about the claim - advanced by Captain Ed by echoed by most Bush followers --that FISA is obsolete because it wasn't intended to regulate eavesdropping during wartime - a claim negated both by the plain language of the statue and by the historical circumstances in which the statute was created.
I apologize for misinterpreting your question while skimming your blog while hurrying out of the house for work...
I agree with you that Congress meant Section 1811 of FISA to control during wartime.
Absent, Section 1811, there is no language that limits the statute to peacetime.
You can stop with the text for this argument. We were not at war when this statute was enacted. Our rivalry with the USSR at the time was hardly a war.
However, apart from whiling away the hours, why does this question matter legally? DOJ isn't advancing this argument.
In reading your Reagan quote of the cold war I could not help but marvel at the way fear is so often used to sway public opinion. I don't even believe it is wielded only cynically. I believe it reflects the state of mind of these leaders and their followers. It reflects an inability to admit to any level of weakness-- a fixation on an ideal of masculinity that is totally unrealistic--that some kind of total security is possible.It is also reflected by the clinging belief to a god who will absolutely protect anyone who maintains the right beliefs and practices (Pat Robertson who suggests that bad things will happen to those who disobey God--Sharon). So that obeying God gives some kind of ultimate protection.
ReplyDeleteI am surprised you missed the glaringly obvious problem with Ed's logic: we are not actually at war.
ReplyDeleteNo war has been declared by Congress. This is, technically speaking, peacetime.
Shawn said...
ReplyDeleteThe AUMF was passed in September, 2001. The PATRIOT act was passed in October, 2001 (or November?) containing a section explicitly amending FISA.
The quesion is: If the AUMF was intended to allow the executive branch to circumvent the FISA courts, then why was the PATRIOT act section amending FISA necessary at all?
That is simple...
You cannot amend FISA to avoid conflict with this NSA program without having the statute describe the program to the enemy.
Congress realizes this and is now confronted with crafting language to amend FISA to eliminate the warrant requirement and allow Congressional oversight over the NSA program without describing the program to the enemy.
This is really a silly exercise meant to save face for Congress and avoid having FISA declared partially unconstitutional because they already have constitutional oversight power which they have already exercised.
The answer is that the AUMF was not intended to exempt the executive branch from FISA in any way.
Legislative "intent" is irrelevant. Only the statutory language matters. The language of the AUMF is a clear, unambiguous and expansive grant of power to the President to exercise all the incidents of war, including enemy intelligence gathering.
It might be helpful to have a primer somewhere with every argument made defending the administration's circumvention of FISA as legal on one side, and a shorthand of the argument eviscerating the claim on the other.
ReplyDeleteWe'd have to update it frequently, though, since it seems that bizarre theories positing Bush as above the law is a growth industry.
...Next bizarre legal theory to grapple with is the idea that Cheney had the authority to declassify the NIE and/or Valerie Plame's identity. Would love to hear your thoughts on this, Glen. But I don't want to pull you off the immediate topic.
Here is Jonah Goldberg approvingly setting forth John Derbyshire's criteria for what constitutes a conservative, my emphasis:
ReplyDeleteThe Conservative FaithIn Tuesday’s column, Derbyshire listed six tenets of Anglo-American conservatism (I prefer Russell Kirk’s but these will do):
1. a deep suspicion of the power of the state.
2. a preference for liberty over equality.
3. patriotism.
4. a belief in established institutions and hierarchies.
5. skepticism about the idea of progress.
6. elitism.
Consider that, as we see legions of "conservative" Bush defenders insisting that George Bush is permitted to -- nay, must -- spy on Americans without any judicial oversight at all, in violation of the law. I guess conservatives' "deep suspicion of the power of the state" takes a nose dive when George Bush is the state.
(As to the rest of Jonah's piece, do not believe any of his discussion regarding F. A. Hayek. It is total doggy doo-doo. Hayek did not exempt American conservatism when he critiqued conservatism and insisted he was not in that camp. Among the examples of the errors of conservatism Hayek cites is opposition to the theory of evolution, which is an overwhelmingly American, conservative phenomenon, one oft promoted at National Review.)
Do we now have a Pres & a VP who claim authority to run amuck?
ReplyDeleteYes.
Quod rex vult, lex fit.
Next question.
Our rivalry with the USSR at the time was hardly a war.
ReplyDeletebart, you mean to say you believe that illiterate cave-dwelling suicide bombers are a greater threat to America that the USSR was, the overtly hostile USSR which had enough nuclear power to destroy every American city 10X over?
You cannot amend FISA to avoid conflict with this NSA program without having the statute describe the program to the enemy.
That's too damn bad. It's still the law, and the President must obey the law.
We were not at war when this statute was enacted.
Neither are we at war now, as you know.
Legislative "intent" is irrelevant.
Wait... so... the letter of the AUMF is all that matters, not the intent... but the President's blatant disregard for the letter of FISA is ok, because it wasn't "intended" to cover wartime?
You couldn't have put forth a more self-undermining argument.
Quoting Bart: "Legislative 'intent' is irrelevant. Only the statutory language matters. The language of the AUMF is a clear, unambiguous and expansive grant of power to the President to exercise all the incidents of war, including enemy intelligence gathering."
ReplyDeleteSo, AUMF grants Bush wartime powers; this means he must operate according to the FISA Laws as they relate to the President's wartime powers.
You can't have it both ways: you can't acknowledge that FISA laws do apply under wartime, but then say that because we're not at war, the President's AUMF powers are thereby unlimited.
Glenn dear, the time has come to demand impeachment. Demand it loudly and often. The fab founding fathers gave us this recourse. I believe it's the only way we will return our country to the rule of law. The polls show low approval and high disapproval of the Bush regime. The American people are speaking but no one is listening. The American people want accountability. We ordinary Americans are accountable for our actions every day of our lives while watching the criminal elite breaking laws, shredding the constitution, and now a Republicon senator is going to fix the FISA law to make the white house happy. WHAT!?!!
ReplyDeleteYou seem quite passionate about the rule of law as am I. Can we apply that passion to impeachment? I'm tired of words. I want action now. I want Congress to impeach before the Bush cabal abolishes Congress. Impeach before the psycho pseudo president launches a preemptive nulcear war. He can hardly wait. Why are we waiting? Let's find out now which members of Congress will fight for our constitution and demand the impeachment of those who are trampling it. It might distract them from their crime spree and I know it will give us hope that our government can and will function again. Please! we cannot take the injustice much longer. And for sure it will save a legion of Libras from certain insanity:)
A very easy way to start - bumper stickers. Right now my car is the only one in the grocery store lot with an impeach sticker. Let's get one on every car of every American who demands accountabilty.
We can stand up for the rule of law and our constitution while sitting in our cars. Uniquely American:)
Take care, Jan
Bart writes:
ReplyDelete1) You cannot amend FISA to avoid conflict with this NSA program without having the statute describe the program to the enemy.
2) Congress realizes this and is now confronted with crafting language to amend FISA to eliminate the warrant requirement and allow Congressional oversight over the NSA program without describing the program to the enemy.
3) This is really a silly exercise meant to save face for Congress and avoid having FISA declared partially unconstitutional because they already have constitutional oversight power which they have already exercised.
4) Legislative "intent" is irrelevant. Only the statutory language matters. The language of the AUMF is a clear, unambiguous and expansive grant of power to the President to exercise all the incidents of war, including enemy intelligence gathering.
Bart,
Your credibility starts off pretty badly with this argument, because obviously you have no idea if 1) is true.
2) is equally absurd, since several members of Congress who have been briefed have claimed that the program can fit into FISA with little or no modification.
As for point 3), just the opposite is true: as has been widely reported, the White House has made a "full court press" to brow-beat every Republican member of the Intelligence committee into pulling back on the investigation into the legality of the program. Do you think this is because Karl Rove is concerned about Congress saving face? (That's pretty funny.) No, it's because the administration doesn't believe it's own legal arguments. They don't want them tested in a court, and they don't want them fully exposed to Congress or the public. If it is shown publically, formally, and beyond doubt that the Administration has exceeded its authority here, it becomes a nightmare issue for Rove.
Point 4), that AUMF is a "clear and unambiguous" grant of power to eavesdrop domestically is pretty funny too. I don't think even the most zealous unitary executive theorist could would make the "clear and unambiguous" claim. More subtlely, you've been pointed to earlier arguments by Glen on this point, and you haven't addressing them at all.
Of course there's a reason for all the statements regarding the Patriot Act, etc., following AUMF, which clearly imply that the Administration itself did not think AUMF granted these powers: The whole AUMF argument wasn't even cooked up until 2004 (as Gonzalez admitted to Leahy). Why only then, Bart, when it's all so "clear and unambiguous"?
David Shaughnessy says:
ReplyDelete“As Glenn has noted, however, this scandal is really quite simple at bottom: the Bush Administration has broken the law and contiunes (sic) to do so. ... I, for one, think something must be done about it.”
Mr. Shaughnessy is a voice of reason in this thread. This “scandal” is also, “at bottom” a ploy by the left to impeach Bush in the hope that liberal Democrats can be elected. Most commenters here ignore that fact and wrap themselves in the flag and wave the Constitution. The right (and most of the center) doesn’t believe the left is wrong in their arguments. They do believe that most of this “save the Republic” rhetoric is politically motivated and thus their response.
Many other-than-leftists agree that something must be done about it. Impeach the President? No. All of the real evils and potential evils that have been made so much of here can (and probably will) be dealt with in a responsible manner.
Wanting to impeach the President and frothing at the mouth about it is perfectly acceptable political behavior in America. Confusing your efforts with something noble makes you look foolish. Other-than-leftists who say that this is no time for an impeachment proceeding given the lack of a smoking gun (real, as opposed to theoretical harm done anyone) are the real patriots. Most of the commenters hear constitue a lynch mob. All this crap you shout at each other that the guilty will go free unless you are given your way right now is typical lynch mob reasoning.
We are seeing the 'cracks under pressure'.
ReplyDeleteWe seem to be on a slippery slope where 'each side' will more and more discount all precedent and law that was affected primarily by the 'other side', and the 'nation' will disintegrate into 'revisionist' fragments.
Keeping a large populus stable under democratic rule would seem to require a continuous improvement of its individuals - in reason, knowledge and goodness.
Bart cannot rely on AUMF to justify wiretapping of Americans. Why? Because the Fourth Amendment of the Bill of Rights is supreme (and it was ratified AFTER the Constitution, so relying on Article II doesn't help Bush either):
ReplyDeleteThe right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
-- United States Constitution, Amendment IV
This online symposium conducted by the same historian, Jamie Glazov, whom I cited and quoted above, ties together a number of recent themes here. The discussants are addressing Ann Coulter's book, Treason, and the two most renowned, right-of-center Cold War historians in the world, John Early Haynes and Harvey Klehr, are having none of Ann, including her affection for Joe McCarthy. As they have documented many times over, liberal Democrats played an enormous and successful role in delousing the govt of the Communists who had infliltrated both it and their Party. There is no reason, therefore, to believe that Democrats cannot effectively fight Al Qaeda.
ReplyDeleteExcerpt (my emphsasis):
Klehr: [James] Wechsler a "hero of the dominant Marxist left?" The Communists and their allies hated Wechsler and his fellow Americans for Democratic Action liberals like Walter Reuther, Hubert Humphrey and Arthur Schlesinger Jr. precisely because they had fought the Communists long before Joe McCarthy knew the difference between Earl Browder and Louis Budenz. It was liberal anti-communists- including Ronald Reagan- who organized ADA after WWII who helped cleanse the CIO of communist influence, fought against Henry Wallace in the Democratic party and supported a strong anti-Communist foreign policy. You don't have to agree with every aspect of their ideology to recognize the invaluable contribution they made to anti-communism- long before McCarthy arrived on the scene to distort their views and malign them.
Haynes: From 1945 through 1947 the Truman administration treated domestic communism and espionage as not serious and Republican complaints as partisan nuisances. Truman regarded the FBI's Hoover as an alarmist and did not take his reports seriously. But by late 1947 Truman came, belatedly, to comprehend the Soviet menace and the domestic threat of Wallace and Popular front liberals to Truman's Cold War policies and the evidence sank in from the Bentley and Gouzenko defections and the Venona project.
The Truman administration shifted and adopted a series of anticommunist measures. It continued to deny Republican charges that there was or had been a subversion problem while simultaneously removing the problem and preventing its reoccurrence. While intellectually illogical, it was effective damage control as demonstrated by Truman's election in 1948, defeating the Republicans and smashing beyond recovery the pro-Communist left under Wallace.
McCarthy did not only point out the belatedness and shortcomings of the Truman administration's anti-subversion measures, he accused the administration of participation in the Communist conspiracy and that its highest officials were traitors. The charge was false and was of a nature that exceeds that which a healthy democratic polity can sustain. Exaggerated, malign, and angry partisan rhetoric is common and tolerable in American politics. But accusations of treason set the stage for a systemic crisis that undermines the polity itself.
Notherbob2,
ReplyDeletethis is a parody post, isn't it? Doesn't this amount to
liberals and leftists and many many republicans agree bush is breaking the law and thus failing in to uphold his oath of office (which includes swearing to uphold the laws) but people calling for the natural remedy (impeachment) are merely partisan/leftists (even if they are not, in fact, liberals or leftists) because impeachment is and only can be a partisan tool. We should instead wait for someone else, who is not an american citizen/liberal/leftist and who is so disinterested that their motives can be trusted to do something to iron all this out.
I have some news for you. Everyone who thinks about impeaching bush over this matter knows that it will not "result in the election of liberal democrats." Why? Because impeachment doesn't lead to elections at all, you fool. Impeachment of bush leads, of course, to cheney rising to de jure power when he's had de facto power all along. But the reason to impeach bush (or cheney for that matter) is the same reason we prosecute *any* crime--because the crime is a violation of law. Because crime affects all of us. You don't have to "prove" that a person was harmed by being robbed--even a rich man can be "robbed" of relatively small sums of money and the state prosecutes the thief just the same. Similarly we don't have to "prove" that some individual was harmed when bush breaks the law and orders warrantless spying on thousands of american citizens. We are all harmed by the presidents wilful violation of the law regardless of his motive or the amount of personal privacy that was affected.
Sad that principled opposition to the president's power grab is limited to liberals and leftists because self identified "other than leftists" like you prefer to play party politics rather than to stand up for what you, yourself, say is right.
aimai
Good post, Glenn. The real point is that these clowns in the Bush regime believe that the Cold War containment policy was a mistake. These are the "Team B" whackjobs who believe that the whole Cold War was misfought, and that we should have rolled 'em back right after the Second World War.
ReplyDeleteThey never understood that the reason the Cold War ended in bloodless victory for the United States was because of the relative restraint with which we approached the struggle (Vietnam notwithstanding). These idiots don't understand that we won the Cold War (1) because the West stuck to its economic knitting, while the Soviets went off the rails; and (2) because Reagan was an anti-nuclear utopian who chose to reject the advice of all his cabinet hawks and instead to believe Gorbachev's sincerity when Gorby suggested that they call the Cold War off.
These guys don't understand this history at all, thus neatly obverting Santayana's famous observation: "Those who cannot learn from history are unable to repeat it."
There is no doubt that you have provided clear thinking analysis on this issue, and have spent much (needed) print on exposing the laziness or dishonesty of people who persist in saying things that are unambiguously false. You deserve much praise for that.
ReplyDeleteYou go on to criticize the mythmaking and revisionism the Bush cult engages in. And here again, your work is valuable and needed. But you go on to do the same thing when you write We are a strong nation because we have adhered to the rule of law and our founding principles even as we defeated enemies far more formidable and threatening than a ragtag group of Islamic fanatics. I think our history is a lot murkier than this, and it should not be hard to think of why.
You may not agree at all, and if you say so I will clarify what I mean.
Then again, you might agree - but reason that those issues are beside the point and any discussion would detract from the main point. It would also make you easier to marginalize. But if you go down that line of thinking, you are using the exact rationalization of the Bush cultists.
I am talking specifically about the “rule of law” and “our founding principles” so clearly exemplified in native American genocide, African slavery, Civil Rights, women’s rights, COINTELPRO, Vietnam, Iraq, etc. We have a lot of warts in our legal history, glossing over them to make a point about why the president is not above the law is unnecessary, and is hypocritical when much of your post is a criticism of others who do the same thing.
notherbob2: This conservative would love to know how the Democrats could possibly be any more socialist than the Republican party has become.
ReplyDeleteThe Republicans lied when they said they would reduce the size of the federal government, they lied when they said they would reduce spending, they lied when they said they were concerned about citizen's rights, and they lied about reducing tax rates, because they have spent more money than Bush's "tax cuts" could ever generate.
The Republican party has become socialist.
prunes asks: notherbob2: This conservative would love to know how the Democrats could possibly be any more socialist than the Republican party has become.
ReplyDeleteThis libertarian would ask the same question.
daiprunes said...
ReplyDeleteOur rivalry with the USSR at the time was hardly a war.
bart, you mean to say you believe that illiterate cave-dwelling suicide bombers are a greater threat to America that the USSR was, the overtly hostile USSR which had enough nuclear power to destroy every American city 10X over?
I am arguing the law here, not metaphysics.
A threat is not a war or we would be in a continual state of war.
Whether al Qaeda is a bigger or smaller threat to the US is an interesting question. The USSR could have destroyed the US with nukes, but was deterred by the threat of mutual destruction and common humanity.
However, al Qaeda is not a state which we can destroy in return and is generally not afraid to die in any case. There is no common humanity with al Qaeda. They fight by butchering our and their own civilians. If they get WMD and we do not intercept them before an attack, I believe that al Qaeda is much more likely than the USSR to actually use WMD against us.
We have a lot of warts in our legal history, glossing over them to make a point about why the president is not above the law is unnecessary, and is hypocritical when much of your post is a criticism of others who do the same thing.
ReplyDeleteFair enough - I actually had a paragraph in this post which I took out because it seemed to just distract from the argument. There, I made the point that the excesses and shameless episodes in our history were almost all due to our overreaction to real threats by reacting to those threats in a hysterical and irrational manner, which then caused us to violate our own principles in order to defend ourselves against them.
I didn't mean to suggest that we have a pure and perfect history. Quite the contrary - I do believe we have acted contrary to our principles in the past precisely when the hysterics and fear-mongerers among us have had their way. I've made this point before so I guess I just assumed that nobody would think that I am painting some whitewashed version of our country's history. But I understand your general critique (without necessarily endorsing all of its particulars), and don't disagree with it. I probably should have included the paragraph.
David Shaughnessy said:
ReplyDeleteAs for your further complaint, that the argument Glenn addresses -- that FISA doesn't apply during wartime -- hasn't been asserted by the Department of Justice, I have one word in answer: Yet. The DOJ hasn't made this argument yet. If and when it is necessary, DOJ may well do so.
Or, alternatively, some Bush Administration stooges -- perhaps you, Bart -- will make the argument "informally," sort of the way the Bush Administration again and again linked Iraq and 9/11 without actually saying it.
Perhaps you missed the first part of my post where this "stooge" agreed with Glenn that FISA is plainly not a peacetime statute.
I very much like pb's suggestion that the counter-arguments to the Bush Adminstration's baseless assertions be rendered succinctly
That sounds like a good idea. However, you folks are the ones attempting to put together a case of criminal conduct.
If Glenn would like to make out an "indictment" listing the various arguments for criminal liability here, I would be pleased to draft and insert the defenses after each allegation.
I am a criminal and civil defense attorney and this would be fun practice. I don't often get slam dunk defenses like this...
Purpleprose - Superb points, very well-stated.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was reading those Reagan speeches, one of the things that struck me - especially when he was President - is that the bulk of them were devoted to the virtues of arms control agreements and achieving a verifiable peace. And his actions proved that - unlike Bush's cursory "war is a last resort" routine which you know he doesn't mean - Reagan did want a peaceful resolution to the Cold War first and foremost and you are absolutely right that, in doing so, he acted contrary to the war-mongering blowhard advisors who surrounded him (the ancestors to our neoconservatives).
In the 1976 speech I linked to in this post, he also said this:
The defense policy of the United States is based on a simple premise: The United States does not start fights. We will never be an aggressor. We maintain our strength in order to deter and defend against aggression -- to preserve freedom and peace.
That paragraph would never have made it past Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney.
Nice slicing and dicing of the right-wing argument. Some of these people might even believe what they're writing. I don't know.
ReplyDeleteBut I've learned to discount at face value all they say. It's usually an act. Like the continual whine about the "liberal" media. Only the true gullible rubes out in Red American actually believe that. The bloviators mouthing that line don't believe anymore than you or I do.
Same with all this other stuff. They spout this stuff today because they have the power and want to keep it. If the world suddently changed and a Democrat were president, they would change on a dime. You actually think any good wingnut would want to give Hillary Clinton that kind of power? Of course not.
The argument they'd be making then would be that if the law was good enough back in the '70s when we were in the Cold War and theatened daily with nuclear war from the evil empire, it ought to be good enough now when we're dealing with a rag tag bunch of criminals. See I can do it too. Nuff said.
Robert1014 said...
ReplyDeleteQuoting Bart: "Legislative 'intent' is irrelevant. Only the statutory language matters. The language of the AUMF is a clear, unambiguous and expansive grant of power to the President to exercise all the incidents of war, including enemy intelligence gathering."
So, AUMF grants Bush wartime powers; this means he must operate according to the FISA Laws as they relate to the President's wartime powers.
You can't have it both ways: you can't acknowledge that FISA laws do apply under wartime, but then say that because we're not at war, the President's AUMF powers are thereby unlimited.
Let me try to make this clearer for you...
Glenn is arguing that FISA is a limit on the President's Article II power to gather intelligence on foreign groups and their agents in the United States.
This power is not limited to wartime but is definitely a power the President would use to prosecute any sort of war.
The AUMF did not only effectively declare war, it also granted to the President full powers to prosecute that war, including enemy intelligence gathering.
In doing so, the AUMF would have had to remove any previous restrictions on the prosecution of this war such as any limits FISA made on enemy intelligence gathering.
quoting notherbob2:
ReplyDelete"This “scandal” is also, “at bottom” a ploy by the left to impeach Bush in the hope that liberal Democrats can be elected..... They do believe that most of this “save the Republic” rhetoric is politically motivated and thus their response."
First, it's not a "ploy". Bush is intentioanlly breaking the law. The opponents of that lawlessness didn't create that out of thin air.
Secondly, it's not being fought against just so "liberal Democrats" can be elected. It's so we can replace our current "leadership" with honest and responsible leaders who WILL help "save the Republic" because the current "leaders" are fucking things up beyond repair.
I believe that al Qaeda is much more likely than the USSR to actually use WMD against us.
ReplyDeleteThen you are a flat-out all-day sucker, and you don't know much history. Nuclear war was potentially only hours away at multiple points in the 80s.
Thanks for ignoring my other points.
I am a criminal and civil defense attorney and this would be fun practice. I don't often get slam dunk defenses like this...
No, I guess you don't get to make up blatantly unconstitutional executive privileges and magically appearing wartime conditions in real court.
I am arguing the law here, not metaphysics.
I don't think you are. Your view that the AUMF somehow magically activates Bush's "wartime" powers is absurd, and EVEN IF THAT WERE TRUE, further relies on a facile interpretation of the Executive's powers.
The Executive does not have the authority to determine which laws are constitutional or not, and whether or not challenging those laws in court would in some small way adversely affect the ostensible effectiveness of the program, it is still a fundamental part of our Constitution.
That is to say, even if the AUMF were a declartion of war, which it's not, the NSA program would still be illegal.
“Sad that principled opposition to the president's power grab is limited to liberals and leftists...”
ReplyDeleteActually, those who are involved in this debate right now who are motivated by principle are few and far between. However, most everyone claims to be in that group – even I. I am against impeachment right now because I am looking for Democrats (although I would prefer libertarians) to vote for and I want them to run on real issues as opposed to “Anyone but Bush” and “Republicans are bad” while pandering to their far left base. Joe Lieberman has my vote, although the Democrat base will never allow me to cast it. Let me say it even more simply: if you have never voted for any candidate who is not a Democrat, you have only one principle, the rest is window dressing. I could have used an earthier metaphor: h*rs*h*t.
prunes said...
ReplyDeleteI believe that al Qaeda is much more likely than the USSR to actually use WMD against us.
Then you are a flat-out all-day sucker, and you don't know much history. Nuclear war was potentially only hours away at multiple points in the 80s.
Nonsense. Feel free to post your sources...
Thanks for ignoring my other points.
I have addressed them about a dozen times before on this blog. Maybe if we can summarize the points as suggested, I'll just refer you back to the summary.
I am a criminal and civil defense attorney and this would be fun practice. I don't often get slam dunk defenses like this...
No, I guess you don't get to make up blatantly unconstitutional executive privileges and magically appearing wartime conditions in real court.
Unlike the allegations made here, I have backed up all my defenses with the Constitution, statutes and case law. I will do so again in the summary if Glenn is game
"Congress shall have the power...To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces..."
ReplyDeleteI guess those regulations only apply in peacetime, huh? Everybody knows the framers meant for us to fight wars with a completely ungoverned army, answerable to no law and only one man. Because that's what the "AUMF overrode FISA" argument states - in time of war, all congressional regulations on the actions of the military are null, and all power to govern the military reverts to the president.
Geez. Nuclear close calls
ReplyDeleteFeel free to pick them apart and tell me how they weren't close enough for your liking.
First point: does the President have the authority to determine which laws are or are not Constitutional or must he challenge laws he doesn't like in court?
Sub point: Does this change in a "time of war"?
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"Congress shall have the power...To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces..."
I guess those regulations only apply in peacetime, huh? Everybody knows the framers meant for us to fight wars with a completely ungoverned army, answerable to no law and only one man. Because that's what the "AUMF overrode FISA" argument states - in time of war, all congressional regulations on the actions of the military are null, and all power to govern the military reverts to the president.
Hardly.
This is an enumerated power of Congress. Congress could not delegate that power to the President through the AUMF even if it wanted to.
"But, there has never been a declaration of war.
ReplyDeleteUS Constitution, Article 1, Section 8 imbues Congress with the power to declare war. No resolution declaring war has passed the congress since the 1940s.
I apologize if there's something I'm missing, but there seems to me a grand disconnect. "
The dirty little secret is that the US has been under a state of national emergency since the Korean Action. Each subsequent president signs off on and extends this executive order. How do you think we got the military industrial complex? Why do presidents get to activate the armed forces on a whim? I suspect that the current white house cabal sees this as the source of their power.
Here's an interesting link on emergency powers:
ReplyDeletehttp://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/6216.pdf
Hear those crickets? That's what you hear when folks are deprived of their "you are one too" and "your side does it too" "arguments". Doesn't everyone want candidates and parties who run on "here's what we are going to do to make this country a better place to live"?
ReplyDeleteAnd I don't mean those who add: "...by getting rid of Republicans!" I kind of like McCain too.
Quoting Bart: "Let me try to make this clearer for you...
ReplyDeleteGlenn is arguing that FISA is a limit on the President's Article II power to gather intelligence on foreign groups and their agents in the United States.
This power is not limited to wartime but is definitely a power the President would use to prosecute any sort of war.
The AUMF did not only effectively declare war, it also granted to the President full powers to prosecute that war, including enemy intelligence gathering.
In doing so, the AUMF would have had to remove any previous restrictions on the prosecution of this war such as any limits FISA made on enemy intelligence gathering."
Okay, maybe I'm missing something, because this still doesn't clear up my previous question. Glenn quoted the section of the FISA laws which specify their application during wartime; if the AUMF is effectively a declaration of war, how does that NULLIFY the FISA restrictions on the President's powers to order wiretaps? In other words, FISA allows the President to unilaterally order wiretaps, but he must obtain a warrant within 72 hours after having so ordered; during wartime, the time allowed him to obtain the warrant is extended to 15 days, but where does it REMOVE his obligation to obtain warrants at all?
As I pointed out/asked previously, assuming AUMF gives the President wartime powers--it being a de facto declaration of war--how is Bush freed from the obligation to obtain warrants within at least 15 days for EACH of the wiretaps he has ordered?
David:
ReplyDeleteI read your blog with your "indictment." I am busy with a case, but I most definitely would like to respond. Maybe this evening of over the weekend.
Thanks.
Bart
"...this Administration believes it has the right to violate laws which it does not think are good laws."
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't stop there, Glenn. As your recent posts aptly demonstate, Bush/Cheney and Company believe they have every right to violate ANY law (Espionage Act, Intelligence Identities Act) and abrograte ANY section of the Constitution (Article 1, Article 2, Amendments 4, 5, 13, 14...the list goes on) they find mildly inconvenient.
"The AUMF did not only effectively declare war, it also granted to the President full powers to prosecute that war, including enemy intelligence gathering."
ReplyDeleteThat's a lie. Not only is there no language in the AUMF that overrides FISA, but such explicit language was offered and rejected. The Congressmen who voted for AUMF, on both sides of the aisle, have stated that they did not intend the AUMF to override FISA. As Glenn said, "Even Bush supporters have largely given up on the truly inane notion that the AUMF was intended by Congress to provide an exemption to FISA" -- but of course not all Bush supporters, and not all the time; folks like Bart will continue to make such false assertions whenever it's the only thing they have to fall back on. Each of Bart's claims has been refuted. His response is to start over, asserting them again.
Glenn has ripped so many new assholes in the Bushies that they are now nothing but assholes -- but then, we knew that all along.
As I pointed out/asked previously, assuming AUMF gives the President wartime powers--it being a de facto declaration of war--how is Bush freed from the obligation to obtain warrants within at least 15 days for EACH of the wiretaps he has ordered?
ReplyDeleteHe isn't; Bart is full of shit.
Perhaps you missed the first part of my post where this "stooge" agreed with Glenn that FISA is plainly not a peacetime statute.
ReplyDeleteI very much like pb's suggestion that the counter-arguments to the Bush Adminstration's baseless assertions be rendered succinctly
That sounds like a good idea. However, you folks are the ones attempting to put together a case of criminal conduct.
If Glenn would like to make out an "indictment" listing the various arguments for criminal liability here, I would be pleased to draft and insert the defenses after each allegation.
I am a criminal and civil defense attorney and this would be fun practice. I don't often get slam dunk defenses like this...
I see your comments are all in bold; it reminds me of the old lawyer saying, y'know, the one about "when you've got a case, you pound the facts, but when you don't you pound the table"
Try leaving off the bold unless you're actually making a point, o.k., yer Honor?
Glenn, excellent post regarding the Cold War. At least when it existed, we were dealing head on with the enemy. Vietnam was a mistake but even then N. Vietnam was communist and about to make S. Vietnam communist. Here, we attack a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 or Al-Queda. In fact, they're not even Muslim, they're a secular country. In fact, Bin Laden wanted to join the US in the original Gulf War when Bush's dad ran it.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of other wars beside the cold war and the current gulf war, Truman and Johnson were wartime presidents and both left office with very low poll ratings. (In fact, when the wartime president Johnson saw the writing on the wall and decided not to run, Vietnam WAS still happening.) Were any of those people who thought negatively of them "traitors" or "helping the enemy?" Did people think back then these wartime presidents could obey certain laws they wanted to? Heck, even Bush's father was a briefly wartime president and during the original Gulf War, he wasn't exempt from criticism and nor was encouraged to go around FISA or any law that gave him special previlges because it's war.
I keep hearing from Bush supporters "9/11 changed everything" or "We're at war, don't criticize the leader." My question to Bush supporters who think what Bush is doing with FISA justified regardless of whether its legal or not, is there anything that we can legitmately critcize Bush on during this wartime and not "traitorous" or "helping the enemy"? Or is peacetime the only right time to ever criticize a president?
I tell ya, in this post 9/11 world, there are people who act like criticism of a wartime president never happen before and find bloggers like Glenn or Kos, conseratives like Bob Barr, liberals like Russ Feingold, are pure radicals because they have the nerve to criticize Bush during wartime.
The comment above, which appears to be chastising Bart for his use of bold, would be a lot less incoherent if it identified quoted material as such.
ReplyDeleteMontreal
ReplyDelete"They" read and "They" know.
They just play with the ignorance of the people
Bart:
ReplyDeleteI don't think you are a "pro-Bush stooge." You raise some points that I had not considered, and I appreciate that.
In fact, the Supreme Court ruling in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld supports your position that the AUMF can be interpretted as a statute authorizing warrantless spying, whether you or I are happy about it or not.
I'm not, for the record, happy about that ruling.
Here's a question though:
Doesn't the Keith Case (United States v. United States District Court) say that the president does not have inherent Article II power to spy on American citizens, even in time of war? And if that is a proper reading, then the question of whether FISA is intruding on the Article II powers remains open. Maybe?
Made my day. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you are a "pro-Bush stooge."
ReplyDeleteYour mistake. Perhaps you haven't read his comments in other threads. For instance,
Why are you wasting your time on this when there are other "scandals" to release your Bush hatred on like Cheney shooting his friend?
and
This piece of traitorous garbage who revealed a top secret program of the highest sensitivity to the enemy in a time of war rather than go to the IG, AG or Congress with his complaint deserves to spend the next 20-30 in Supermax for violating the Espionage Act and probably a couple other statutes.
The damage to the country which this scumbag or scumbags has inflicted in incalculable.
It has been suggested here that we draft a breakdown of the arguments for and against the proposition that the NSA program violates the law.
ReplyDeleteI suggested that the opponents of the NSA program draft an "indictment" of the Mr. Bush listing the alleged violations of law by this NSA Program and I would draft the defenses.
David Shaughnessy suggested the first count of this "indictment."
I would like to preface his count with the basic stipulated facts and then follow his count with a multiple part defense.
I have included a heading after each defense paragraph for the "prosecution" (that is you folks claiming a violation of law) to offer responses.
I look forward to building this summary of arguments with you...
STIPULATED FACTS:
1. Mr. Bush signed an executive order authorizing the NSA to conduct warrantless surveillance of international telephone calls between the United States and various overseas countries where one end of the telephone call consisted of a telephone number captured from al Qeada or related sources. (Hereinafter "the NSA Program").
2. Mr. Bush notified and briefed the chief judges of the FISA court of the NSA Program but did not seek warrants for the surveillance conducted under the program.
3. Mr. Bush notified and briefed the leaders of both parties in the House and Senate as well as the senior members of the House and Senate intelligence committees of the NSA Program, but did not seek any legislation from Congress to amend FISA or authorize the program.
COUNT I:
FISA makes it a criminal act to conduct domestic electronic surveillance unless it is approved by the FISA court. The Bush Administration has confessed that it has conducted domestic electronic surveillance without approval by the FISA court. Therefore, the Bush Administration has been, and is, committing criminal acts.
THE DEFENSES
A. The Constitution provides the President with the sole power to direct and conduct warrantless foreign intelligence gathering under the NSA Program.
Prosecution Response:
1. The Constitution proves the President with all the executive power vested in the federal government including the powers to act as commander in chief, Art. II, Sec. 2, to act as the sole representative of the United States in foreign affairs, United States v. Curtis-Wright Export Corp., 299 U.S. 304, 319 (1936), to protect the United States from foreign attack, The Prize Cases, 67 U.S. (2 Black) 635, 668 (1863) and to protect national security information. Department of the Navy v. Egan, 484 U.S. 518, 527 (1988).
Prosecution Response:
2. Federal courts have unanimously held that the Constitution also grants the President, as commander in chief and sole representative of the United States in foreign affairs ,the implied power of directing and conducting warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States. (hereinafter “warrantless foreign intelligence gathering”). See, e.g., United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1144 (1982); United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 890 (1977); United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3d Cir. 1974) (en banc), cert. denied, 419 U.S. 881 (1974); United States v. Brown, 484 F.2d 418 (5th Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 916 (1974). See also In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717, 742 (Foreign Intel. Surv. Ct. of Rev. 2002).
Prosecution Response:
3. The activities authorized by President Bush under the NSA Program easily fall under his constitutional power to conduct foreign intelligence gathering.
Prosecution Response:
B. The Constitution does not provide Congress with the power to limit or eliminate the President’s constitutional authority to direct and conduct warrantless foreign intelligence gathering by requiring the President to seek warrants from the FISA court to operate the NSA Program.
Prosecution Response:
1. The Constitution does not provide Congress with the power to amend the Constitution to limit or eliminate the President’s Article II powers (or the Courts’ Article III powers) merely by enacting a statute. The Constitution provides for only one method for changing the allocation of powers in the Constitution – the amendment process.
Prosecution Response:
2. Furthermore, Congress was not exercising a concurrent power with the President to direct and conduct foreign intelligence gathering when it enactment FISA. For this reason, the Jackson tripartite test set forth in Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, does not apply to the NSA Program. 343 U.S. 579, 635-38 (1952) (Jackson, J., concurring). Justice Jackson’s test only applies to situations like that in Congress has concurrent constitutional power with the President over a particular act. For example, in Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co., the President attempted to seize a steel plant under his authority as commander-in-chief when Congress had already exerted its constitutional power in the area of property seizures.
Prosecution Response:
3. FISA appears to be an attempt by Congress to enforce the 4th Amendment requirement to obtain warrants to conduct unreasonable searches. However, it is well established that the 4th Amendment does not require the President to obtain warrants to conduct foreign intelligence. See, e.g., United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1144 (1982); United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3d Cir. 1974) (en banc), cert. denied, 419 U.S. 881 (1974); United States v. Brown, 484 F.2d 418 (5th Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 916 (1974). See also In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717, 742 (Foreign Intel. Surv. Ct. of Rev. 2002); United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 890 (1977). Therefore, the 4th Amendment cannot be a source of Congress’s authority to regulate foreign intelligence gathering.
Prosecution Response:
4. Article I of the Constitution does not enumerate a power for Congress to direct or conduct foreign intelligence gathering.
Prosecution Response:
5. Congress’ power “[t]o make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces” pursuant to Art. I, Sec. 8(14) of the Constitution does not imply a power to direct or conduct foreign intelligence gathering. Designating the targets of foreign surveillance gathering is an incident of military command, which the Constitution grants only to the President as commander in chief. Congress’s power under Art. I, Sec. 8(14) is limited to enacting legislation like the Uniform Code of Military Justice to ensure the order and good conduct of service members.
Prosecution Response:
6. Finally, the Necessary and Proper Clause cannot provide Congress the power to direct or conduct foreign intelligence gathering.
Prosecution Response:
a. The Necessary and Proper Clause states that Congress has the power: “To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.” Art. I, Sec. 8(18). (Emphasis added).
Prosecution Response:
b. The Necessary and Proper Clause is merely an enabling statute authorizing Congress to enact legislation which carry into execution other Powers granted under the Constitution. This provision does not grant to Congress any additional substantive powers such as either the authority to direct or conduct the gathering if foreign intelligence or the authority to deny the President his or her constitutional authority to do the same.
Prosecution Response:
c. In his Commentaries concerning the Constitution, St. George Tucker observed about the Necessary and Proper Clause: “The plain import of this clause is, that congress shall have all the incidental or instrumental powers, necessary and proper for carrying into execution all the express powers; whether they be vested in the government of the United States, more collectively, or in the several departments, or officers thereof. It neither enlarges any power specifically granted, nor is it a grant of new powers to congress, but merely a declaration, for the removal of all uncertainty, that the means of carrying into execution those otherwise granted, are included in the grant.” St. George Tucker, 1 Blackstone's Commentaries: With Notes of Reference to the Constitution and Laws of the Federal Government of the United States and of the Commonwealth of Virginia Appendix 286-90 (1803). (Emphasis added).
Prosecution Response:
d. The argument that the Necessary and Proper Clause is itself an enumerated power which gives Congress the power to enact statutes to limit to eliminate the President's Article II powers is simply untenable. The only means provided in the Constitution to change the document is the amendment process. To allow Congress enact statutes to limit or eliminate the President's Article II powers (or the Court's Article III powers) would essentially reduce the other branches of government to nullities and destroy the concept of separation of powers.
Prosecution Response:
C. Even if the Constitution did provide Congress with the power to enact FISA to regulate the President’s power to gather foreign intelligence, Congress waived FISA regulation of the NSA program by enacting the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) against al Qeada and its allies.
Prosecution Response:
1. In the preamble to the AUMF, Congress recognized that “the President has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States.”
Prosecution Response:
2. In Section 2(a) of the AUMF, Congress authorized the President “to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.”
Prosecution Response:
3. The expansive language of the AUMF clearly allows the President to use the fundamental incidents of military force, even if such incidents are not individually described by the AUMF. Hamadi v. Rumsfeld, 542 U.S. 507, 519 (2004)(holding that the AUMF authorized the President to hold enemy combatants).
Prosecution Response:
4. Warrantless gathering of intelligence on the nation’s enemies, foreign or domestic, has been a necessary and fundamental incident of the President’s use of military force since the dawn of the Republic. For a good summary of this history, see LEGAL AUTHORITIES SUPPORTING THE ACTIVITIES OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY DESCRIBED BY THE PRESIDENT, p. 14-17 (DOJ January 19, 2006), http://files.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/nsa/dojnsa11906wp.pdf.
Prosecution Response:
5. Therefore, the AUMF amended FISA to permit the President to direct and conduct foreign intelligence against al Qeada, its allies and agents under the NSA program.
Prosecution Response:
a. It is a basic tenet of resolving conflicts between statutes that the latter enacted statute generally controls the earlier enacted statutes. Thus, the AUMF’s authorization of the President to conduct warrantless foreign intelligence gathering would control over any FISA restrictions of that function.
Prosecution Response:
b. Congress intended FISA to be amended by later legislation. FISA prohibits any person from intentionally “engag[ing]…in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute.” 50 U.S.C. § 1809(a)(1). AUMF is just such a statutory authorization.
Prosecution Response:
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