First, nobody ever thought that a just resolution of this scandal was dependent upon an investigation by the Senate Intelligence Committee, dominated, as it is, by the mewling, slavish and indescribably dishonest Pat Roberts. The notion that this scandal has come to an end all because Roberts blocked, for the moment, hearings that were to be held by that Committee is nonsensical. Thankfully, this scandal never depended upon the integrity of Pat Roberts, and hearings in front of that Committee were merely one of the many ways to compel a real investigation, but it was hardly the only or even primary way.
Moreover, the Committee did not vote against an investigation. Instead, Roberts merely invoked a procedural device as Chairman to prevent a vote, for now, from taking place. (Incidentally, what happened to the Republican mantra that procedural maneuvers ought not be used to block up-or-down votes? It seems that principle only applies to matters where they know they will prevail on the vote. Here, there were clearly Republican members of the Committee who did not want to go on record – and who may have been unwilling to go on record – voting to oppose an investigation. As a result, no vote was held).
And, one must remember that there are numerous other branches of this scandal which are alive, well, and growing. The investigation of the Senate Judiciary Committee continues, with disputes raging between the Republican Chairman and the Attorney General over the scope of further witnesses testimony and the DoJ’s obligation to disclose documents. The House Intelligence Committee voted yesterday to launch its own investigation and hold its own hearings, and Republicans on that Committee are already feuding with one another over the proper scope of that investigation. And, as I posted about yesterday, the judiciary is now involved in this scandal and is beginning to assert its institutional role in our democracy.
In sum, there are numerous governmental processes underway far beyond the Senate Intelligence Committee which are engaged in serious and potentially fatal investigations of this scandal. And beyond those, what will ultimately determine whether the Bush Administration is held accountable for its law-breaking are two components which neither Dick Cheney nor Pat Roberts can shut down – the investigative work of the press and the opinion of the public.
Some perspective is necessary and critically important here. The NSA scandal has only existed for two months. It arose in an environment where the President’s party controls not only the Executive Branch, but has transformed Congress into a compliant, obedient, impotent tool of the Administration. The Administration has successfully manipulated terrorism fears for quite some time, and the Administration begins with a rhetorical advantage with any measures that ostensibly involve counter-terrorism efforts. And large parts of the media are captive to the Bush world-view and resistant to the premise that the Administration may have been corrupt or acted illegally.
Thus, this scandal was never going to be the downfall of the Administration after a few weeks, and anyone who expected this was operating with wildly unrealistic expectations. It is going to take hard, focused, patient work to bring about a just resolution to this scandal. It is an uphill battle that will have to overcome substantial and formidable efforts on the part of the Administration to block investigations and they will do everything in their considerable power to ensure that they will be immunized from consequences. All of that has to be expected. None of it should come as a surprise.
There is nothing surprising – and nothing even remotely fatal – about the fact that someone like Pat Roberts engaged in slimy maneuvering in order to comply with Dick Cheney’s decree that there be no investigation by that Committee into this scandal. If that little stunt is enough to make people say that the whole thing is over and the Administration won, then it means that we weren’t prepared to fight very hard over this matter.
The reality is that the more the Administration fights to suppress investigations and conceal relevant facts, the more fuel is added to this fire. Every presidential scandal in history has been exacerbated by the cover-up component. Opponents of the Clinton Administration had some of their most compelling political P.R. victories when the Administration invoked precepts of "Executive privilege" in order to block interrogation and to avoid the disclosure of documents.
Rather than viewing each obstructionist step by the Administration as some sign of our inevitable defeat and doom, we ought to see it and use it as what it is -- a sign that, contrary to their bravado, the Administration is petrified of this scandal and is doing everything possible to prevent Americans -- through their Congress and the courts -- from discovering the truth.
During the Watergate scandal, the Nixon Administration engaged in all sorts of subterfuge designed to derail the Watergate investigation. The notorious Saturday Night Massacre occurred when the President ordered his Attorney General, Elliot Richardson, to fire the Special Prosecutor investigating the Watergate scandal (Archibald Cox), and when both Richardson and his Deputy refused to fire Cox, Nixon fired them and then found someone next in line at the Justice Department (Robert Bork) who was willing to fire Cox, which Bork then did.
When that happened, Americans who stood opposed to Nixon's law-breaking didn’t throw up their hands and moan that the Watergate investigation was over and concede defeat to the President. If anything, those obstructionist efforts fueled the scandal even more and emboldened Nixon’s opponents to create other ways to ensure that he and his Administration were held accountable for their law-breaking. In fact, public opinion was so inflamed by that obstruction that it was shortly thereafter that articles of impeachment were introduced for the first time.
The Watergate scandal took 2 1/2 years from the time it began until the time Nixon left office because of it in disgrace. The NSA scandal has been with us for 2 months. Watergate resulted in Nixon’s downfall not due to one large smoking gun revelation, nor was it because the country heard about the break-in and then stormed the streets demanding Nixon’s impeachment.
Nixon began that scandal as an immensely popular President - infinitely more popular than the unpopular Bush is now. And when the Watergate scandal began, the mere notion that it could lead to Nixon’s downfall was fantasy. And the scandal unfolded as a slow, grinding process which was the result of tenacious, relentless investigative work and a slow transformation of public opinion. And the Administration fought the investigation every step of the way, doing what they could to obstruct it at every turn.
It is highly instructive to recall the evolution of public opinion with regard to this Mother of all Presidential Law-breaking Scandals:
[I]t is worth remembering that Watergate, as a case against a presidency, was not built in a day, and the decision of most Americans to abandon their support of Nixon was not made overnight.
Shafts of light fell on Nixon's dark side in June 1972, when burglars were caught bugging the Democratic National Committee headquarters in the Watergate hotel-office complex. The few newspeople who went after the story began piecing it together that summer and fall: the program of dirty tricks and the illegal cash financing, the efforts to silence potential witnesses and shield the president.
While the revelations accumulated, the rest of the country tuned out. That November, Nixon carried 49 states in winning re-election. More than two months later, as the first Watergate defendants were going to court in January 1973, Nixon's numbers in the Gallup Poll were among the most robust of his presidency: 68 percent approval to 25 percent disapproval. . . .
Of course, that was before Nixon began talking about invoking executive privilege to prevent White House aides from testifying about an alleged cover-up. When that key phrase, "executive privilege," became part of the discussion, Nixon's numbers started their descent.
In February, the Senate voted 70-0 to empanel an investigating committee of its own. Nixon's approval rating in the first week of April stood at 54 percent in the Gallup Poll. Most Americans were still withholding judgment. Even after the April 30 speech in which Nixon announced the resignation of his closest aides, many Republicans continued to rally around the president.
The Senate Republican leader, Hugh C. Scott of Pennsylvania, said the speech had proved that the president was "determined to see this affair thoroughly cleaned up." The governor of California, Ronald Reagan, said the Watergate bugging had been illegal but that "criminal" was too harsh a term because the convicted burglars were "not criminals at heart."
That same month, Republican state party chairmen meeting in Chicago adopted a resolution blaming "a few overzealous individuals" for Watergate and lending unequivocal support to the president.Vice President Spiro T. Agnew accused the press of using "hearsay" and other tactics that were "a very short jump from McCarthyism." The same comparison was picked up by the man who had succeeded McCarthy in the Senate, Democrat William Proxmire of Wisconsin, who said the media had been "grossly unfair" to Nixon.
By then, however, the bleeding in the Gallup Poll had dropped Nixon to just 48 percent approval in the first week of May -- a drop of 20 percentage points since January. And that rating would keep on falling through the 25 percent level before Nixon's resignation in August 1974.
The Bush Administration isn’t going to just roll over at the first whiff of a scandal. But enormous strides have been made in public opinion. And there are already multiple Congressional investigations, lawsuits, raging and growing disputes within the President’s own party, and at least some important journalists who have shown a rare journalistic hunger over this story.
And most important of all, there has been no real campaign to convince Americans of what is truly at stake with this scandal. Most Democrats can barely get themselves to utter the fact that the President broke the law, and yet half of all Americans have already reached that conclusion on their own.
There is enormous potential for this scandal to grow, but that will only happen if people who believe that Presidential law-breaking is a serious threat remain resolute about making it grow and believe that they can contribute to its growth. Dick Cheney lobbied so hard to prevent the Intelligence Committee from investigating precisely because they want to create the appearance that this scandal is dying. That will happen only if people allow it to die, only if Bush opponents internalize the notion that they will inevitably lose because everything is against them and there is no way to change that.
I was one of the people getting a little hysterical yesterday. i'm so glad you wrote this. You are absolutely right. We need to dig in and realize that it's a real war and if we aren't willing to fight it, then we have only ourselves to blame if we lose.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the perspective, Glenn. Much appreciated.
ReplyDeleteDid you see what else Pat Roberts is doing? He's trying to push through more severe penalties on people who leak aka whistle-blowers, since I'm sure this wouldn't apply to Rove or Libby.
ReplyDeleteGlenn & fellow commentors,
ReplyDeleteLet's suppose that there is an investigation & the administration is found to have violated no laws, violated no American's civil rights & been what the administration has insisted all along, a program designed to track, listen to & utilize communications between terrorists, would your reaction be that it is just another devious stroke of good luck for Bush or would you be willing to admit that you were wrong all along? Because if you are not willing to accept that, what does that say about you & your readiness to assume the worst about an administration that doesn't share your political philosophies? Doesn't that make you, in reality, the real "cultists" that Glenn is so eagerly declares those that support Bush to be? I, like many of you, would love to have the courts settle the matter once & for all & would prefer the have the Executive Branch’s powers in the area completely defined & addressed & would admit any fault that could be proven. I, however, think that the biggest push for this investigation is solely politically motivated & believe that for something this important & possibly limiting that that is the worst possible & possibly most dangerous motivation to have. My guess is that the majority of you would then clamor on about the courts being packed by conservative judges or fixed from the beginning & completely remain totally politically biased regarding it & honestly if that is the truth why even bother to call it justice when all you are after is revenge?
thanks for the perspective. there are lots of lessons to re-learn about watergate and how we will prevail.
ReplyDeleteSome much needed historical context indeed. We who are so against this Administrations's abuses need to always remember that its best hope in ridding itself of the consequences of this scandal is the losing of hope by those opposed. To think that after 5 years of having such a stranglehold on the power of the Federal Government that Bush and his cronies in Congress would just roll over at the first whiff of scandal was, as Glenn so wisely points out, a pipedream. This is going to take work. Lots of it. I just hope everyone who's here concerned about this issue is not spending all their time stuck in self-referential and affirming blog land and is spending time trying to reach all the people out there who don't have access to the internet and are so much more dependent on the MSM, to help them understand why this issue is so important. It's not going to be easy, but then neither was bringing down Nixon. Got to keep on pushing...
ReplyDeleteOK. I admit I was one of those wanting to throw in the towel.
ReplyDeleteBut two things changed that:
Glenn's cheerleading, which I never realized before today serves so vital a function in keeping up the morale of the troops, and Glenn's description of Roberts as
"the mewling, slavish and indescribably dishonest Pat Roberts."
Something that brilliant, and funny to boot, is enough to keep me going for at least a month or so!
pmain,
ReplyDeleteDepends on who is doing the investigation, and how it's handled.
David Shaughnessy,
ReplyDeleteI totally agree, but have to disagree w/ Glenn premise. This case bears very little resemblance to the Watergate & more to Lincoln’s dismissal of habeus corpus (sp?) during the civil war. Watergate’s sole purpose was to monitor & spy on political rivals for election information like the Clinton Administrations use of the IRS & FBI files, whereas Lincoln’s was used as a tool during a time of war – neither involved or originated w/ sources outside of the country however, so maybe neither is the best example. The use of Watergate by Glenn is just another cheaply veneered assault in order to paint the administration in political terms & relates solely to the reason I asked the questions that I did above. Isn’t it funny how he is also the one that insists that Bush supporters are “cultists” but only uses examples that define or relate the administration by the most negative terms & extreme examples possible? While I mean nothing personal about that or about our dear host, I would assume that that is due in part to his professional training as a litigator & that that is the way his mind works as a natural form of organizing & preparing an argument. Like I have written in another post on an entirely different thread, that is something that makes for a great defense attorney or prosecutor, but tends to limit objectivity overall. For me, as someone leaning to the right, I’d prefer to interact w/ someone as smart & as different from me in order to either strengthen my beliefs or use to truly evaluate or show me the areas where I am not being as objective as I can be. Either way, thanks for the civil tone, it is always appreciated.
In repsonse to your 2nd post, I have no problem w/ the SJC holding the hearings, I jhave always questioned the timing of the release of the information by the NYT & suggested that they not begin the hearings at the beginning of an election cycle to prevent it being reduced to political fodder. Why not wait until November 8th?
"...mewling, slavish and indescribably dishonest Pat Roberts."
ReplyDeleteYou are now a god to me.
Doesn't that make you, in reality, the real "cultists" that Glenn is so eagerly declares those that support Bush to be?
ReplyDeleteIf wanting to stop, by whatever means necessary, an administration that:
- Launches "pre-emptive" wars of choice of debatable effectiveness that cost billions a week
- Installs incompetent cronies that are at best ineffective and at worst deadly
- Runs up massive spending/deficits
- Lines the pockets of big business at the expense of the nation
- Jeopardizes national security for politcal gain
- Is arguably unable to provide effective national security
- Panders to religious zealots
- Ignores all dissent, however rational
... makes one a "cultist," then my only question is: where do I sign up?
Seeing from the other comments the extent of the emotional turmoil this scandal has wrought just makes we want to underscore the importance of this blog. And I'm glad to see that it's getting linked to by other major bloggers. I really think it's people like Gleen who keep us in the fight. So thanks. Again and again and again.
ReplyDeleteWhat if the investigators looking into leaks to reporters (concerning the NSA program) find evidence of wrong doing within the administration?
ReplyDeleteCouldn't they expand their investigation to include illegal acts by the adminisration? e.g. conspiracy to keep an illegal program secret . . .
lincoln?civil war?there is no comparison.the civil war was real.this is a power grab.george isno lincoln.try aaron burr.
ReplyDeleteGreat post Glenn. Here are some thoughts from others on the general topic of giving up. (Copied over the past few years from some other blogs, sorry I can't remember where).
ReplyDelete"The only kinds of fights worth fighting are those you are going to lose, because somebody has to fight them and lose and lose and lose until someday, somebody who believes as you do wins.
In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing -- for the sheer fun and joy of it -- to go right ahead and fight, knowing you're going to lose. You mustn't feel like a martyr. You've got to enjoy it.
-- I.F. Stone
That "the truth is great and will prevail" is a prayer, rather than an axiom.
--George Orwell
"Courage must be the greater, heart the bolder, spirit the greater, the more our strength is diminished."
-spoken by the warrior Byrhtwold in old English poem on the battle of Maldon
Glenn, it's funny, I was gonna title a comment over at T2's place, "The Long, Hard Climb". But since i've been spending too much time at Atrios' "house" these days, I'm sensitive to sexual innuendo and try to avoid any wording that could be taken that way (unless it's my intention...). Can I say that "Slog" saved the day & made me laugh?
ReplyDeleteYou are right, that we must continue to fight, and the harder they fight back, the stronger we are. If we could just own a cable station! And also, I was wonderin', could someone file a suit -- or many a class action suit -- that their civil rights have been violated by the government illegally spying on them? Is someone already doing this?
Glenn - is all action in the Judiciary committee on hold as well?
ReplyDeleteIf not - any way to get an update on how things stand there?
Also - I heard that, despite the bleak outlook, Feingold and Leahy are each going to propose an amendment to the Patriot Act -- any info?
I tend to assume that you know everything *g*
"and yet half of all Americans have already reached that conclusion on their own." Yes, hello Glenn, here I am one of the half. Majority, actually. I'll repeat- high disapproval, loooow approval, time to impeach.
ReplyDeleteActually I had another thought after my last comment (a chatty recluse, look out!). The other day I heard a phrase and I can't remember where 'cause all my moments are senior lately.
Integrity has it's own momentum. Lovely and I believe true. Let's find out who on the people's payroll has the integrity to defend our constitution.
Did you know R.I. candidate Carl Sheeler has an impeachment billboard? It's awesome! And there's an impeachpac that should be quite effective in weeding out the candidates who aren't paying attention and are letting our "justice and liberty for all" be stolen.
I don't think the impeachment process will take as long this time because there are reams of evidence already uncovered.
Take care, Jan
OK, I admit I'm not a huge fan of Richard Dreyfuss, but it will be interesting to see how his comments play out (assuming they make it past this obscure little outlet) regarding impeaching Bush. If we can keep up this type of questioning and make it national by taking it local, then I think things will begin to turn around.
ReplyDeleteHere's a quote from http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=\Politics\archive\200602\POL20060217a.html
Richard Dreyfuss, the actor who starred in movies ranging from "Jaws" to "Mr. Holland's Opus," told an audience in Washington, D.C., on Thursday that "there are causes worth fighting for," and one of those is the impeachment of President George W. Bush.
"There are causes worth fighting for even if you know that you will lose," Dreyfuss said during a speech at the National Press Club. "Unless you are willing to accept torture as part of a normal American political lexicon, unless you are willing to accept that leaving the Geneva Convention is fine and dandy, if you accept the expansion of wiretapping as business as usual, the only way to express this now is to embrace the difficult and perhaps embarrassing process of impeachment."
>Let's suppose that there is an investigation & the administration is found to have violated no laws, violated no American's civil rights & been what the administration has insisted all along, a program designed to track, listen to & utilize communications between terrorists?<
ReplyDeleteThen I suspect we'll be finding those weapons of mass destruction any minute now!
You are correct again. Moreover, with each scandal it is as though more and more people awake to the reality of how corrupt and incompetent BushCo is and how truly manipulative the press has become. People are catching on and as they do watching more closely the doings in DC (to include Congress) than they have in many, many years.
ReplyDeleteHey, thanks for the perspective as well. I feel better now, Father Glenn.
Folks:
ReplyDeleteGlenn's absolutely right, and there's still good work we can do TODAY on this issue! With his blessing, I'd like to ask anyone who's not a sunshine patriot to at least check out (in a new window! simple manners) the top two posts today at VichyDems. The first is a pep talk I was writing at the same time as he was writing his, the second is a game plan for putting some pressure on the House Intel Committee -- which HAS decided to hold hearings -- to ensure those hearings are real, and not just whitewash.
Please don't give up. The contact info is all there; make a couple of phone calls to House members, then one to Pat Roberts to tell his staff what a traitor he is (it feels good! Really!). THEN you can go back to drinking heavily.
Thanks.
pmain,
ReplyDeleteYou are misinterpreting Glenn's post.
Glenn's use of Watergate was of an example of a scandal that took a long time (due to powerful opposition) to do it's damage.
That's as far as the comparison went. He was using that to argue for patience.
littlepig,
ReplyDeletegiven just the little bit of questioning you just did, can you see that FISA is absolutely incapable of working at the highest level of monitoring? Given today's technologies of disposable cell phones, internet, digital calls, using a systems of warrants for permission to track the most dangerous people on earth is ridiculous.
David Shaughnessy,
ReplyDeleteBut if the program isn’t illegal or no violations have occurred & given that the NYT sat in the story for over a year & released it right before the ’06 elections, why risk such an important issue to be lost to the guise of political bashing? The Democrats so very desperate to gain some political power or foothold, wouldn’t be able to resist using it as a platform to re-gain power (Republicans honestly wouldn’t be any different if the positions were reversed). Because the conclusion of the investigation or any subsequent laws will have direct ramifications on the how the Executive Branch operates regarding national security, this isn’t something we need to rush into or pervert to gain a few votes that they normally wouldn’t get.
Members of both parties were informed of the program – albeit not enough members for my taste - & none of them raised a stink until well after the newspaper articles were printed. If there was a crime why did they or the NYT wait so long? Surely if the program violated American’s rights or is so evil in nature either the Democrats that were informed or the NYT would have immediately made it public, but no they chose to wait & sit on it until it served their own political purposes only. Since the AG, the President, the NSA & the CIA have all said it an important program & useful & nowhere were any issues raised previously, I cannot see what waiting until the elections are over can do any more harm. I have yet to hear one argument countering this position & given the political nature & obvious dislike of the NYT towards the Bush Administration, can do nothing but see only the politics in play & mocked concern for the rights of the US or its citizens. But to be able to paste the Administration w/ the “Nixon” label, why that is campaign gold & very hard to resist. So which is more important the truth & seeking it in a non-political fashion or gaining a few seats in the House & Senate? Notice that there will be no response to this or the questions I have raised. Also notice that the NYT waited until the release would have had the most advantageous effect for the Democratic Party & completely disregarded any sense of non-partisanship in its coverage. Those that believe they are guilty won’t bother to question its political motivations, but in fact seem to welcome & depend upon it or why else would there be so many emotional reactions in the comments section here?
If the Administration is guilty, the Democrats have now given them the best weapon to defuse any accusations raised… they only have to say & show, quite easily I might ad, that these attacks are nothing but political posturing & all momentum will be lost because it will be true, regardless of the facts of the case. If they were smart & they haven’t shown that ability since the Kennedy Administration – completely disregarding the previous Clinton Administration’s masterful political success, which has turned in a weight around their necks, because they cannot ever begin to match it (the beautiful part is that Clinton’s success removed that same shadow that Reagan had burdened the Republican Party w/) – they’d come out & say that this is too important of an issue to politicize & lose to political discourse. They won’t & they will lose on this issue, like they have on almost every other single one they have tried to smear this Administration w/. Already the Republicans that questioned it are beginning to pull back & let the Democrats shoot themselves in the foot & those most concerned about it are going to be the ones that help fuel its demise by continuing to demand an investigation right now. How is this any different from the Republicans strategy employed in the last 2 elections? It’s not & Karl Rove has publicly given their playbook to the other side, all the while realizing that the Democrats will never ever change their MO. Too bad, because this government runs best when the opposition is strong & not just screaming for screaming’s sake.
given just the little bit of questioning you just did, can you see that FISA is absolutely incapable of working at the highest level of monitoring?
ReplyDeleteFrom Glenn's post, quoting Bush praising FISA this way on October 27, 2001:
The new law [amending FISA] recognizes the realities and dangers posed by the modern terrorist. It will help us to prosecute terrorist organizations--and also to detect them before they strike. . . .
Surveillance of communications is another essential method of law enforcement. But for along time, we have been working under laws [FISA] written in the era of rotary telephones. Under the new law [which amends FISA], officials may conduct court-ordered surveillance of all modern forms of communication used by terrorists. . . .
Looks like George Bush doesn't agree with you.
And what's the implication of your argument, anyway? FISA sucks, so Bush can violate it?
Sigh. It is over. The Dems will also, as per SOP, allow it to be over. They will take the "over-ness" of it and put a good varnish on it by joining with the GOP and voting for a change in the FISA law to make everything Bushie has done legal. That IS what the GOP is pushing for, afterall, a simple post hoc change to FISA that makes what Bushie wants to do and continues to do all okidokie.
ReplyDeleteA few Dems will vote against but many (perhaps the same ones that voted FOR Alito by voting FOR cloture) will vote in favor. They will be doing the bidding of their crack advisors that tell them that whiny-assed tittybaby issues like Constitutional Rights and the Rule of Law are "loser issues" politically. They will thus make the "loser" issue disappear by voting it OK.
I will believe otherwise ONLY when, in fact, there is a FAILED vote to make it all legal, largely due to a unified Democratic vote against (plus GOP defectors) or, barring that, a filibuster to stop such crap. I have NO faith in the Dems. None. It goes without saying that there is no reason to have faith in one or two GOPers fighting against it.
No, they will, en mass, vote to make it all go away, thus erasing a "loser" political issue so they can all move on with "the people's business". Do not place faith in the Dems here. They have earned none and will earn none.
can you see that FISA is absolutely incapable of working at the highest level of monitoring? Given today's technologies of disposable cell phones, internet, digital calls, using a systems of warrants for permission to track the most dangerous people on earth is ridiculous
ReplyDeleteCriticizing FISA is irrelevant to anything.
You may very well be right about FISA, but the President doesn't get to ignore a law because he thinks it doesn't work well.
But if you've been reading this blog for any time at all, you would know that this point (THE MOST RELEVANT POINT ABOUT THIS STORY), has been repeated many, many times.
pmain,
ReplyDelete"...like the Clinton Administrations use of the IRS & FBI files..."
Which was? If Ken Starr could find nothing, there was no there, there.
I will believe otherwise ONLY when, in fact, there is a FAILED vote to make it all legal, largely due to a unified Democratic vote against (plus GOP defectors) or, barring that, a filibuster to stop such crap. I have NO faith in the Dems. None. It goes without saying that there is no reason to have faith in one or two GOPers fighting against it.
ReplyDeleteWhat are you DOING about it besides whining? The whole point that I believe Glenn is making is that the reason why liberals lose is because they sit around whining about how they lose and don't do anything to change things. No offense, but it sounds like you're a great example of what he means.
Your a preacher of defeat.
PMain said...
ReplyDeleteLet's suppose that there is an investigation & the administration is found to have violated no laws, violated no American's civil rights & been what the administration has insisted all along,
As a starting point, that is NOT what what the administration has insisted all along.
"All along" what we were told is that the Patriot Act provisions, fraught enough with problems on their own, were the program. There was only coverup and secrecy, not an "all along" admission of the program, so that would still bother me, whatever the outcome. It is deceitful to send DOJ and the WH on the road to do "shows" on how, despite the dangers, the Administration IS following the rule of law and checks and balances and WILL be getting judicial warrants for any surveillance. So yes, I would believe that to be a big problem on the ethical and moral front, no matter what happens.
a program designed to track, listen to & utilize communications between terrorists
It is a program designed to disregard the fourth amendment requirements of a judically authorized warrant issued by an impartial magistrate upon a finding of probable cause that the information being sought is reasonably related to an Executive branch function (be that law enforcement, national security, administrative functions, etc.)
So yes, no matter what happens that will bother me. Whether (and it is a frightening thought) a court holds that the President can go ahead and suspend the Bill of Rights protections of Americans as long as there might be some "terror" somewhere in the world to combat or not; I will absolutley have the same problems with the actions. I may not like what the NSA does or does not do with respect to those who are not Citizens of the United States, but I am very much willing to allow the courts and Congress to make the determinations on those fronts and I am pretty accepting of the outcomes.
With respect to the Bill of RIghts, however, I cannot imagine anyone with a speck of American blood being ok with any consortium of government branches suspending the Constitution. How can you POSSIBLY be ok with that, no matter what Stepford bus you might ride?
or would you be willing to admit that you were wrong all along?
I won't admit it on the fourth bc I am right. The words are there and they are pretty simple. You should be eyesbuggingoutofhead SHOCKED that the ex-head, now "bumped up" of the NSA could not even REMEMBER (or possibly *admit* if memory lapse is too kind) the warrant clause in the Fourth, and yet lecture on how well versed the NSA is on the 4th. *s*
And btw - there HAS already been, in essence, a court ruling on the program. The head FISA judges, when briefed, refused to allow anything related in any manner to the program to serve as a grounds for requests in their court. The did not take that action because the Program was a legal activity, fully within the ambit of the Constitution.
Despite any laws to the contrary, many people believe that aborting 7 month old fetus/child is wrong and no amount of legal basis would make them change their mind.
Despite anything anyone says to the contrary, I will remain absolutely positive that wiretapping US citizens on US soil without a warrant and probable cause finding by an impartial magistrate is WRONG WRONG WRONG
I will remain convinced that having the AG and PResident and A stringer DOJ personnel hit the road in a travelling show to appease the American Public by PROMISING them that wiretaps would still require a warrant, when all the while they are all complicit in a secret program that is wiretaping citizens without warrants, is WRONG WRONG WRONG.
Because if you are not willing to accept that, what does that say about you & your readiness to assume the worst about an administration that doesn't share your political philosophies?
I guess as long as my political philosophy that they are not sharing is truthfulness and sunshine in government and adherence to the Consitution, you can surmise anything you like about what it says about me. I will also surmise things about you based upon your willingness to accept any kind of rationalizations for such overt deceit and flouting of the Consitution.
Doesn't that make you, in reality, the real "cultists"
Um, I think America absolutely was founded on the concept of accountable government and the "cult" of the Constitution, so I am ok with being identified as that lady who thinks the Constitution is all right, all the time. ;) And that Govt leaders should tell the truth.
The thing is - I apply those standards across the board, no matter who is in power. I believe that Glenn's observation was the PERSONAL cult issues, of writing your standards and prinicples in pencil, on stick it notes, to revise, erase and remove or apply - all depending on who you are talking about.
When you say that you want to have the courts settle the matter, but then say that your motivation for that is political and you think that is a poor motivation, I admit you just confuse me - I'm not sure what your point is on that?
I also don't follow why you think that people who feel the court system has been unfairly stacked with partisan polticians should not comment upon that?
I don't feel that strongly about that issue, one way or the other, except that I do believe that both Roberts and Alito were chosen, not for their general poltics or conservative principles - I am ok with those - but rather for their overwhelming approval of Executive powers, run amok. Go back and watch the second day of Graham's questioning of Alito ;)
THat, btw, is not a "conservative" or "liberal" issue (e. g. read George Will's recent column). As a matter of fact, if you (or most people) bothered to actually read the Hamdi decisions that were issues, you would find that it was two of the most conservative Justices (Scalia opinon) and two of the most liberal Justices (Souter opinion) that were both equally livid with the Executive branch actions. It was the "moderate" effort to try to find some way to accomodate what the Executive branch did, without holding the Executive guilty of crimes, that generated the gosh-awful AUMF nonsense.
Don't tell me that Souter and Ginsburg have the same political philosophies as Justice Scalia. The Constitution is not, and should not, be a political football. It should be defended vigorously and vigilantly, and from assault on all sides, Congressional, Executive, AND JUDICIAL.
If your preference is to surround it by stacking branches of government so that it can be stabbed in the back, IMO, that is very sad.
why even bother to call it justice when all you are after is revenge?
????????????
So, wanting the Executive Branch to acknowledge the Bill of Rights in general and is specific to be bound by the 4th Amendment warrant clause is "revenge"?
Wow. Interesting concept. You know, even the King of England had to recognize habeas. Even the King of England had to have permission to enter a man's home (hence, the "a man's home is his castle" saying) and you are just a happy camper with lesser standards for our government?
You know, they found the German Enabling Act "legal" as well - it's a shame some people still objected, isn't it. ?? Nah - not really. You aren't thinking your argument through. If you were, you would have done the "ooops, no WMD, let's leave" thing long ago. But you didn't, bc of your political leanings. I am ok with that and willing to leave that to the ballot box, although IMO it needs to be on a fair basis where all the information that was suppressed is revealed. But if, with those revelations, people are still OK with "war without end" then so be it.
But it will never be ok with me to suspend the Constitution here at home and take a magic marker to the fourth amendment. It's very sad that you are ok with that IMO.
Revenge has little to do with it.
3:15 PM
Hello: I am a relatively new reader of your blog, and I just wanted to let you know that I think your thinking & writing are absolutely invaluable to the progressive comunity (or what's left of it) in this country. It's entries like this (and your "Bush Cult of Personality" entry recently) that makes me not want to kill myself so much. THANKS VERY MUCH
ReplyDeleteWhy do we even buy into the argument that Bush is defending our security by wiretapping. The fact that he is doing absolutely nothing to protect our borders or ports shows me that he isn't interested in protecting the country. If the terrorists can just cross the border, they don't need to use telephones to communicate (at least not in terms of the supposed type of spying he has ordered to be done.)
ReplyDeleteI was also pretty discouraged this morning -- but this post by Glen and some time spent on the phone this morning with a congressional staffer have boosted my spirits somewhat. More than a few in Congress are getting more than a little peeved at the executive branch thumbing its nose and its executive privilege at Congress. But they figure they are in for battle.
ReplyDeleteWith respect to the Bill of RIghts, however, I cannot imagine anyone with a speck of American blood being ok with any consortium of government branches suspending the Constitution. How can you POSSIBLY be ok with that, no matter what Stepford bus you might ride?
ReplyDeleteI feel forced to believe that there is indeed now a faction of Republicans that would like to see the President suspend the Constitution and institute a police state.
I cannot understand why, but there is a definite push from certain quarters in that direction.
Oh yeah -- it was a Republican staffer I was speaking with.
ReplyDeletepmain II:
ReplyDeleteThis case bears very little resemblance to the Watergate & more to Lincoln’s dismissal of habeus corpus (sp?) during the civil war.
?????????
How so? Watergate was done surreptitiously, secretly and in violation of the law. Ditto the NSA program. Lincoln's suspension of habeus was done pretty out in the open. Whether or not it was in violation of the law is a bit of a question. Unlike suspending the Bill of Rights, the Constitution makes specific reference to the right to suspend habeus and spells out that rebellion is one of the grounds. Congress was in recess and they probably should have been there to go along, but for a very temporary period of time, in the open, with Congress fully knowing exactly what was going on, Lincoln acted alone. Congress then ok'd it. In addition - courts were able to have facts and circumstances brought before them and make rulings - which they did. Those held had frequent visits from legal counsel and family.
Now - the NSA program has been going on for YEARS in SECRET in VIOLATION OF A SPECIFIC BODY OF LAWS (FISA) PASSED TO DEAL WITH THE SITUATION and, more importantly, IN VIOLATION FO THE 4th Amendment. Lincoln never lied or misreperesented that he was suspending habeus - he was out in the open about the full extent of his actions and "the program" and he gave Congress the full information need to openly debate and decide upon a course of action. He did not have Congress pass a habeus law (like FISA) that he then just refused to follow and fibbed to make it sound like he was following it.
He did not send out his AG to say that habeus was not being suspended for some. He did not send his (not then existent) NSA director to fib to the Joint Inquiry (Hayden issued prepared statements to the Joint Inquiry at the end of 2002 that said NSA was still following the same procedures it had been following in 2000).
Doesn't seem at all the same.
Watergate’s sole purpose was to monitor & spy on political rivals
Well, how do you KNOW what the NSA intercepts are being used for? You don't, do you? That is what the warrant requirement is for. But, if you are so sure - explain the Bolton intercepts then. *g*
The use of Watergate by Glenn is just another cheaply veneered assault in order to paint the administration in political terms
I think the fact that the administration has, over and over, acted in cheap political ways has allowed it to paint its own wagon - the fact that Glenn points out the color doesn't make him the painter. If you think competence and concern for the country, rather than poltics and ego driven power grabs, has created the adminsitrations picture - you are not being intellectually honest with yourself.
Look at how the PResident was willing to ruin Powell's career; how the CIA Tenet report was buried by Goss; at the Goss memo's telling the CIA their job is not to question anything the Adminsitration does and the AG's (Ashcroft and Gonzales) use of the DOJ as a personal law firm to the PResident, endorsing the postition taken by Nixon (and yes, the fact that Rumsfeld and CHeney are players now, just as they were then, is not just a little synchronicity) that "if the President wants to do it, it's legal"
Signed Oaths to go hear speeches? People with speech statments on t-shirts kicked out of the SOTU? Sedition charges for writing a ticked off letter to the editor? ASSURANCES from McClellan on behalf of the WH directly that Libby and Rove were not involved in leaking Plame. Lies by the WH relating to Abramoffs visits to the WH. Refusal to turn over to COngress the earlier torture memos (with no applicable claim of privilege); refusal to turn over the Katrina documents; etc.
When George Wills thinks the Exec is "little Mr. run Amok" and Scowcroft and a long long host of conservatives think the same - it is a "cult of personality" to overlook the actual actions.
suggested that they not begin the hearings at the beginning of an election cycle to prevent it
They have already been held back form the 2004 election cycle - along with other investigations and scandals.
"...mewling, slavish and indescribably dishonest Pat Roberts."
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you tell us how you really feel about the Senator?
Keep up the good work, Glenn!
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteGreat post, as usual -- never give up.
One thought relating to what pmain said:
"I, like many of you, would love to have the courts settle the matter once & for all & would prefer the have the Executive Branch’s powers in the area completely defined & addressed & would admit any fault that could be proven."
Fact is, I would prefer that Congress, which is also a co-equal branch with the Judiciary, assert THEIR constitutional authority, too, if necessary:
1. Sidetrack the President's agenda
2. Cut off funding for same
3. Hold REAL oversight hearings (where the witnesses are, like, actually under oath)
4. and/or impeach and convict the President (if warranted).
The problem with relying on the SCOTUS is that Congress runs the risk of committing constitutional suicide.
Mr. Greenwald,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the "pep" post. I was truly despondent yesterday, but do have a little hope today. However, I am still going to seek out some SSRIs. Maybe Limbaugh can score me some.
All humor aside, and if you have the time, can you provide the hopeful with those in the media (non-Blog) you believe are truly investigating? I gave up on TV news and my local paper (metro Atlanta) decades ago. Was it not the New York Times (NYT) that sat on the NSA domestic spying story for over a year? The NYT and Judy Miller pushing the WMD, we must invade Iraq now, Bush Administration lies in 2003? The Washington Post and Woodward cozying up to VP Cheney on the Plame outing? There are many more instances.
Why should we trust the traditional media to go after what appears to be their bread and butter provider?
As to public opinion -- good luck. It could be me, but the segment of the population I come into contact with on a daily basis may not agree with the Bush Administration's tactics, but are living in constant fear of being bombed, nuked or gassed by terrorist. So much so, that they will allow the President to do whatever he thinks is necessary to protect them.
And politicians. I don't trust any of them to do anything but go along, to get along, to keep their jobs. I know that compromise is needed, but doesn't it seem as if everyone of our Congresspeople are so busy scratching each others back, they don't have time to truly represent us?
Whatever bone you can throw this sista to make it through The Long Hard Slog would be much appreciated!
The new law [amending FISA] recognizes the realities and dangers posed by the modern terrorist. It will help us to prosecute terrorist organizations--and also to detect them before they strike. . . .
ReplyDeleteThis quote come from talking about the Patriot Act, not specificaly just FISA. FISA is just one part of multiple overlapping laws that govern how we chase terrorists. This quote has been misused by the left a million times already to try to claim Bush said he would not do warrantless surveillance.
This quote was not directly about FISA which is why you had to insert FISA into it to try to make it meet your political aims.
If you remember, the Bush administration used FISA thousands of times, did they not?
I don't see that mentioned here much.
Their primary argument is with inherent powers constitutionally and legally through the AUMF. The argument is whether Bush has inherent powers and how much Congress can constrict them.
The argument on whether FISA is workable is key cog as to whether Congress can saddle Bush with laws that constrict his ability to hunt terrorists with systems that are outmoded and/or unworkable.
The president does not have the authority to decide which laws are outmoded.
ReplyDeleteIf he thinks a law is outmoded, he must take it to court.
The argument on whether FISA is workable is key cog as to whether Congress can saddle Bush with laws that constrict his ability to hunt terrorists with systems that are outmoded and/or unworkable.
ReplyDeleteI love when the dumb Bush cultists come along and state their argument without any fluff so you can really see it.
This sicko actually believes we live in a country where the President can violate any laws that he thinks are "unmoded and/or unworkable."
Just think about that - what a fucking sick thought that is. Is this really what we've turned into?
Your a preacher of defeat.
ReplyDeleteA preacher of defeat? Nah, a realist. I don't like the way the Dems will again cave in and cower in their cower corner but I accept the hard reality that they will. See, there ARE many "advisor" voices in the Republicratic Party that council that the NSA spying thing is a political loser and that it should just go away so that other things can be focused upon. These are at the heart of the Dem party apparatus. It is part of the machinery that develops the "winning" strategy that has won the Dems so many elections of late.
You can see the cowercorner cowering in the 97 to 3 vote FOR renewal of the Patriot Act sans any repairs (the fiddling that was done does NOT fix it by any stretch). 97 votes means the vast bulk of Republicrats voted to make it go away. They will also vote to make the NSA goo-gaw go away. They don't want to have to stand up for civil liberties or Constitutional Rights. Those are just too hard and controversial to have to talk about. They are "losers" politically. It's best to let nonsense like civil liberties and Constitutional Rights go away so that "more important" issues (no such thing) can be dealt with.
You see the cowering in the fact that Reid has only used rule 21 twice now. He stated he would use it MUCH more often if the Senate didn't do something about the pre-war intel. Also, how many voice votes are still acquiesced to by the Dems? There are any number of nice ways the Dems could screw up the works and force issues that matter to floor but they will NOT use them. They caved on filibustering Alito, they caved on the Patriot act, they are in the continued process of caving on Iraq (for god's sake, MOST Americans are opposed and they STILL can't come out clearly and cleanly against it and stand WITH Murtha!), and they MUST cave on the NSA thing because it is their nature.
What am I doing about it? I've already done it. I quit the party and refuse to give them any more money. I believe in scientific fact. Scientific fact: if you reward bad behavior you will reinforce bad behavior. If you reward good behavior and either ignore OR punish bad behavior (you MUST actively reward good behavior for the former to work) then you will get lots more good behavior and lots less bad behavior. I refuse to reward nonperformance. If they want my votes and/or my money then they will ACT, not talk, not posture, ACT. Until they demonstrate that they actually intend to fulfill their oath to uphold the Constitution, until they actually actively and vociferously oppose the GOP then they get squat. THAT is what I'm doing...and letting them know via letters and faxes. I have also donated directly to primary opponents of some Republicrats (Lieberman, Cantwell, etc) and let the Republicrats know that is what I've done. THAT is what I'm doing.
Thanks, we needed that!
ReplyDelete"And most important of all, there has been no real campaign to convince Americans of what is truly at stake with this scandal."
So, how do we mount this campaign? I was so pleased to hear Sen. Byrd this morning. His remarks, plus your post, have strengthened my resolve.
Think I'll head over to Vichy to see the suggestions. I think that the despair and frustration come from not knowing the plan. If there was a concerted, organized plan of attack, there would be more than enough foot soldiers.
This sicko actually believes we live in a country where the President can violate any laws that he thinks are "unmoded and/or unworkable."
ReplyDeleteJust think about that - what a fucking sick thought that is. Is this really what we've turned into?
I feel safe in saying the anonymous poster is a point of evidence in favor of my opinion upthread that there is a group of Republicans who are pushing for a police state.
Late addition, but I like Glenn's analogy to the length of time it took for Watergate to develop into the high-powered scandal that took Nixon out.
ReplyDeleteThree things to add to that:
1. News cycles were much slower then, and the MSM (WaPo specifically) allowed its reporters to really dig in and cultivate sources like Felt;
2. Bush does not need to have a Sat. Nite Massacre b/c the top Justice officials are already in his thrall -- so there goes one easy way to really inflame the public;
3. Who will play John Dean in all this -- the Senate Committee investigating Watergate would never have gotten as far as it did without Dean going in there and telling it like it was.
Pmain and David:
Good, civil, thoughtful conversation. Thanks!
I am consistenly amazed by the duplicity of republicans. There really does not appear to be even one that has a shred of integrity.
ReplyDeleteUgh
I desperately want to believe you. I'm worried about a couple of things:
ReplyDelete1. Republicans in congress during Nixon's "reign" were willing to call a lying sack of shit a lying sack of shit. They seemed to give a damn about the Constitution, separation of powers, checks and balances. They had minds of their own.
2. The Supreme Court ruled against Nixon! Fat chance they'd do that now.
3. The media was slow but they were shocked to attention by a series of major incidents: Woodward and Bernstein, Daniel Ellsberg and the fight to print the Pentagon Papers, etc.
Today we have the most complacent, complicit congress (on BOTH sides of the aisles) that I've ever witnessed. We have a media that thinks it's too "wonky" to try to understand and explain stuff like policy initiatives and how they screw the living daylights out of us, let alone "boring" stuff like the difference between money laundering/influence peddling/theft/fraud and legal donations to candidates who represent your cause.
The Supreme Court has already demonstrated they would sooner fold themselves into pretzels than rule against Bush.
It's not like Watergate. Not only are the crimes far worse, but we have a lot more to overcome with a lot fewer assets and allies on our side.
Absent OUR HARD WORK we are sunk. The dems in congress (save precious few: Conyers, Feingold, Waxman, sometimes Kennedy, Boxer, Kerry - i.e., we can't even always count on these guys) are NOT working for us.
Some organization would be great. We're kinda diluted between all the different websites and organizations.
Point me in the right direction and I'm there. But we need a spearhead . . .
Once again, well done. A stalwart voice of calm amidst the storm. I agree completely: they sow the seeds of their own destruction. Like all of us, every lie, betrayal, and attack comes back around to knock them down at some point. It is easy to become impatient, but it is better to hold faith in human integrity.
ReplyDeleteThank you.
The argument on whether FISA is workable is key cog as to whether Congress can saddle Bush with laws that constrict his ability to hunt terrorists with systems that are outmoded and/or unworkable.
ReplyDeleteThis crap from the same people who freaked out when Clinton tried to bring physical searches under FISA law.
I'm wondering if bush clowns would say the same thing if the 17th word in the shameless justification above was "Kerry" or "Gore" or "Feingold" or (horrors!!!) "Clinton".
Evidence (and history) say NO. I'd almost buy they were sincere in that argument if they used the words "a president". But it only seems to apply to Bush for some reason.
pmain,
ReplyDeleteWhile I have no explanation for the NY Times' decision to sit on the story, the reason that you heard no dissent against the program prior to the story that made it public is that it would have been illegal for them to do so. It was a state secret. Senator Rockefeller, for one, made his reservations clear in a letter to the President. The letter was hand written for optimal secrecy.
Also, why shouldn't this be politicized? It's an unfortunate fact of political life in America today that everything has a political side. The Republicans haven't been above exploiting 9/11 and the troops for political purposes. If a senator or representative supports abdication of Congressional power in deference to the President, I think his/her constituents are entitled to an explanation. If that is the legitimate stance of any politician, let him/her defend it.
Finally, Glenn, I think you give Democrats way too much credit. They are too fractious, and the number of them who have gone on record as defending the President, or at least saying that this issue is a political loser leads me to believe that they will continue to allow themselves to be browbeaten into refusing to take what they inexplicably believe is an unpopular stand against an unpopular president.
can you see that FISA is absolutely incapable of working at the highest level of monitoring? Given today's technologies of disposable cell phones, internet, digital calls, using a systems of warrants for permission to track the most dangerous people on earth is ridiculous
ReplyDelete???
FISA allows for roving wiretaps.
Warrants can and very often do describe very broad arrays of instrumentalities that can be accessed, tracked and utilized. Ju
So no - don't see that it is a problem at all. What's your specific gripe?
"I feel forced to believe that there is indeed now a faction of Republicans that would like to see the President suspend the Constitution and institute a police state."
ReplyDeleteI'm not so sure they would like a police state as much as they would like a religious state (based on Christianity, of course).
I'm discouraged but not giving up.
ReplyDeleteIf the worst happens--and the Bushies eventually squirt through--it will still have been worth it for us to use all our efforts to keep them on the defensive for as long as possible.
Then, even if we don't see them pay for their crimes, we will at least be keeping them from doing any further damage to our country.
One more thing we should keep in mind -- how far we have come in a relatively short period. I mean the learning curve some of us have experienced in the course of becoming more and more involved and active is extraordinary.
ReplyDeleteThis quote has been misused by the left a million times already to try to claim Bush said he would not do warrantless surveillance.
ReplyDeleteWrong. It's this:
www.crooksandliars.com/2006/02/03.html
Bush, in his own words, saying evesdropping requires warrants. No speculation or leaps in logic required.
Also, if FISA is so damned inconvenient, there's this little thing called going to congress, explaining the issue, and asking for changes. Instead they lied to congress and ignored the law.
Given today's technologies of disposable cell phones, internet, digital calls, using a systems of warrants for permission to track the most dangerous people on earth is ridiculous
ReplyDeleteThe president does not have the authority to determine which laws are outdated by new technology.
If he thinks that FISA's restrictions are ridiculous, he must challenge them in court.
Then, even if we don't see them pay for their crimes, we will at least be keeping them from doing any further damage to our country.
Good point.
I'm not so sure they would like a police state as much as they would like a religious state (based on Christianity, of course).
ReplyDeleteWell, there are at least two sub-factions, the overtly atheistic neocons and old Falwell/Robertson crowd that finally found someone who would pretend to take them seriously.
The neocons ally with the religious social conservatives for utterly Machiavellian reasons. I bet (but of course, don't know for sure) that if this administration ever gets the unbridled power they want, they'll drop the conservative Christians in a heartbeat.
thanks for the encouraging comments, glenn!
ReplyDeletei'm no lawyer, but if congress abdicates it's prosecutorial duties, can't ordinary americans, i dunno, find grounds for filing a class action lawsuit?
thanks,
t.
p.s. (i notice ina asks the same question...)
This quote come from talking about the Patriot Act, not specificaly just FISA. FISA is just one part of multiple overlapping laws that govern how we chase terrorists. This quote has been misused by the left a million times already to try to claim Bush said he would not do warrantless surveillance.
ReplyDeleteThis quote was not directly about FISA which is why you had to insert FISA into it to try to make it meet your political aims.
The only parts of the Patriot Act dealing with wiretapping were FISA provisions. Also, the quote is not a stand alone quote, Gonzales and the road show participants made similar statements, and NO ONE is saying that he said he would not, or could not, do warrantless wiretaps. What he did say, and is being called on, is that he told AMERICANS that they, AS AMERICANS, would not be subject to warrantless wiretaps.
Some documented statements by the President:
A. April 19, 2004, Hershey, PA http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040419-4.html
For years, law enforcement used so-called roving wire taps to investigate organized crime. You see, what that meant is if you got a wire tap by court order -- and, by the way, everything you hear about requires court order, requires there to be permission from a FISA court, for example.
B. April 20, 2004 Buffalo NY
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040420-2.html
Secondly, there are such things as roving wiretaps. Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution.
C. June 9, 2005
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/06/20050609-2.html
The Patriot Act extended the use of roving wiretaps, which were already permitted against drug kingpins and mob bosses, to international terrorism investigations. They must be approved by a judge. Without roving wiretaps, terrorists could elude law enforcement by simply purchasing a new cell phone.
D. July 20, 2005
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050720-4.html
The Patriot Act helps us defeat our enemies while safeguarding civil liberties for all Americans. The judicial branch has a strong oversight role in the application of the Patriot Act. Law enforcement officers need a federal judge's permission to wiretap a foreign terrorist's phone, or to track his calls, or to search his property. Officers must meet strict standards to use any of the tools we're talking about. And they are fully consistent with the Constitution of the United States.
E. December 10, 2005
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051210.html
The Patriot Act is helping America defeat our enemies while safeguarding civil liberties for all our people. The judicial branch has a strong oversight role in the application of the Patriot Act. Under the act, law enforcement officers need a federal judge's permission to wiretap a foreign terrorist's phone or search his property. Congress also oversees our use of the Patriot Act. Attorney General Gonzales delivers regular reports on the Patriot Act to the House and the Senate.
********************
The White House Fact Sheet
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050720-3.html
The judicial branch has a strong oversight role in the application of the Patriot Act. Law enforcement officers must seek a federal judge's permission to wiretap a foreign terrorist's phone, track his calls, or search his property. These strict standards are fully consistent with the Constitution. Congress also oversees the application of the Patriot Act, and in more than three years there has not been a single verified abuse
*************************
Statements by the AG:
A. White House Chat with Alberto Gonzales in April of 2005. http://www.whitehouse.gov/ask/20...k/ 20050412.html
Anthony, from Jacksonville, NC writes:
Why does this administration feel they should forego judicial review (sic) as a part of the Patriot Act? Also do you believe that there are elements of the intelegence (sic) community who would misuse this bill for their own purposes since there appears to be very little or nothing to keep these elements in check?
Alberto R. Gonzales
Anthony, most of the authorities granted by the Patriot Act have to be exercised under the jurisdiction and supervision of federal judges. All Patriot Act provisions contain safeguards such as congressional oversight and court approval.
B. Gonzales in an Online Chat for Washington Post Dec. 14, 2006. http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp...5121301425.html
Morrison, Colo.: It appears you are only giving your side of the issue while giving lip service to any objections. I have a vague memory of reports of thousands of wire taps, many without the required authorization. Couldn't the Congress just extend the current provisions for 90 days and then they and the administration could work for a consensus, which the current bill doesn't seem to be?
Alberto Gonzales: Unfortunately, there has been a great deal of misinformation about the PATRIOT Act and its use. The PATRIOT Act incorporates important safeguards, including judicial review, congressional oversight, and audits by the Inspector General. You mention wiretaps. All wiretaps must be authorized by a federal judge. In addition, investigators must show probable cause and comply with other requirements before the court may authorize the wiretap. This has always been the case, and the PATRIOT Act did nothing to diminish these safeguards.
************
Note the acknowledgement that this has ALWAYS been the case, even without respect to the PATRIOT Act. Later …
************
Alberto Gonzales: The PATRIOT Act has been very effective in helping law enforcement disrupt terrorist cells, ... As I mentioned in response to the previous question, the PATRIOT Act has already undergone extensive review and analysis by the Congress, by the DOJ Inspector General, and by other bodies such as the 9/11 Commission. ... We do not need to choose between protecting America and protecting civil liberties.
C. Gonzales Sworn Responses in Confirmation Hearings (Responding to Senator Russ Feingold) in January, 2005
During his confirmation hearings for Attorney General in January 2005, Sen. Russ Feingold asked Gonzales about this precise issue:
SEN. FEINGOLD: I — Judge Gonzales, let me ask a broader question. I’m asking you whether in general the president has the constitutional authority, does he at least in theory have the authority to authorize violations of the criminal law under duly enacted statutes simply because he’s commander in chief? Does he — does he have that power?
MR. GONZALES: Senator, I — you — in my judgment, you phrase it sort of a hypothetical situation. I would have to know what — what is the — what is the national interest that the president may have to consider. What I’m saying is, it is impossible to me, based upon the question as you’ve presented it to me, to answer that question. I can say, is that there is a presumption of constitutionality with respect to any statute passed by Congress. I will take an oath to defend the statutes. And to the extent that there is a decision made to ignore a statute, I consider that a very significant decision, and one that I would personally be involved with, I commit to you on that, and one we will take with a great deal of care and seriousness.
SEN. FEINGOLD: Well, that sounds to me like the president still remains above the law.
MR. GONZALES: No, sir.
SEN. FEINGOLD: Again, you know, if this is something where — where it — you take a good look at it, you give a presumption that the president ought to follow the law, that — you know, that’s — to me, that’s not good enough under our system of government.
MR. GONZALES: Senator, if I might respond to that, the president is not above the law. Of course he’s not above the law. But he has an obligation, too. He takes an oath as well. And if Congress passes a law that is unconstitutional, there is a practice and a tradition recognized by presidents of both parties that he may elect to decide not to enforce that law. Now, I think that that would be –
SEN. FEINGOLD: I recognize that, and I tried to make that distinction, Judge, between electing not to enforce as opposed to affirmatively telling people they can do certain things in contravention of the law.
MR. GONZALES: Senator, this president is not — I — it is not the policy or the agenda of this president to authorize actions that would be in contravention of our criminal statutes.
SEN. FEINGOLD: Finally, will you commit to notify Congress if the president makes this type of decision and not wait two years until a memo is leaked about it?
MR. GONZALES: I will to advise the Congress as soon as I reasonably can, yes, sir.
********************
C. Gonzales Sworn Responses in Confirmation Hearings (Responding to Senator Russ Feingold) in January, 2005
During his confirmation hearings for Attorney General in January 2005, Sen. Russ Feingold asked Gonzales about this precise issue:
SEN. FEINGOLD: I — Judge Gonzales, let me ask a broader question. I’m asking you whether in general the president has the constitutional authority, does he at least in theory have the authority to authorize violations of the criminal law under duly enacted statutes simply because he’s commander in chief? Does he — does he have that power?
MR. GONZALES: Senator, I — you — in my judgment, you phrase it sort of a hypothetical situation. I would have to know what — what is the — what is the national interest that the president may have to consider. What I’m saying is, it is impossible to me, based upon the question as you’ve presented it to me, to answer that question. I can say, is that there is a presumption of constitutionality with respect to any statute passed by Congress. I will take an oath to defend the statutes. And to the extent that there is a decision made to ignore a statute, I consider that a very significant decision, and one that I would personally be involved with, I commit to you on that, and one we will take with a great deal of care and seriousness.
SEN. FEINGOLD: Well, that sounds to me like the president still remains above the law.
MR. GONZALES: No, sir.
SEN. FEINGOLD: Again, you know, if this is something where — where it — you take a good look at it, you give a presumption that the president ought to follow the law, that — you know, that’s — to me, that’s not good enough under our system of government.
MR. GONZALES: Senator, if I might respond to that, the president is not above the law. Of course he’s not above the law. But he has an obligation, too. He takes an oath as well. And if Congress passes a law that is unconstitutional, there is a practice and a tradition recognized by presidents of both parties that he may elect to decide not to enforce that law. Now, I think that that would be –
SEN. FEINGOLD: I recognize that, and I tried to make that distinction, Judge, between electing not to enforce as opposed to affirmatively telling people they can do certain things in contravention of the law.
MR. GONZALES: Senator, this president is not — I — it is not the policy or the agenda of this president to authorize actions that would be in contravention of our criminal statutes.
SEN. FEINGOLD: Finally, will you commit to notify Congress if the president makes this type of decision and not wait two years until a memo is leaked about it?
MR. GONZALES: I will to advise the Congress as soon as I reasonably can, yes, sir.
********************
Ex-NSA Director Hayden's statements to Congress in 2002 - where do you see him telling them that he and the PResident have already done a unilateral Exec Branch endrun and changed all the rules? He doesn't. He lays it out to Congress as if he is following the rules, but would like for them to "check with their constituents" about changing those rules.
Hayden Statement for the Record Before Joint Inquiry in October 17, 2002.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB24/nsa27.pdf
He refers to his prior testimony in 2000 and indicates that nothing has changed, but that he would like for Congress to discuss matters with constituents and see if the rules need to be change – at this time, the unilateral Executive Branch changes would have already been in effect:
. . .
#36 There is a certain irony here. This is one of the few times in the history of my Agency that the Director has testified in open session about operational matters. The first was in the mid 1970s when one of my predecessors sat here nearly mute while being grilled by Members of Congress for intruding upon the privacy rights of the American people. Largely as a result of those hearings, NSA is governed today by various executive orders and laws and these legal restrictions are drilled into NSA employees and enforced through oversight by all three branches of government.
#37 The second open session was a little over two years ago and I was the Director at that time. During that session, the House Intelligence Committee has me a series of questions with a single unifying theme: How could I reassure them that I was safeguarding the privacy rights of those protected by the U.S. constitution and U.S. law? During that session I even said… if Usama bin Laden crossed the bridge from Niagra Falls, Ontario to Niagra Falls, NY, U.S. law would give him certain protections that I would have to accommodate in the conduct of my mission. And now the third open session for the Director of the NSA: I am here what my agency did or did not know about 19 hijackers who were in this country legally.
#38. When I spoke with our workforce shortly after the September 11 attacks, I told them that free people always had to decide where to draw the line between their liberty and their security, and I noted that the attacks would almost certainly push us, as a nation, more towards security. I then gave the NSA workforce a challenge: We were going to keep America free by making Americans feel safe again.
#39 … I am not really helped by being told I need more Arabic linguists or … What I really need you to do is talk to your constituents and find out where the American people want that line between liberty and security to be.
#40 In the context of NSA’s mission, where do we draw the line between the government’s need for CT information about people in the United States and the privacy interests of people located in the United States? Practically speaking, this line-drawing affects the focus of the NSA’s activities (foreign v. domestic) the standard under which surveillances are conducted (probable cause v. reasonable suspicion, for example), the type of data NSA is permitted to collect and how, and the ruled under which NSA retains and disseminates information about US persons.
#41. These are serious issues that the country addressed, and resolved once before to its satisfaction in the mid-1970s. In light of the events of September 11, it is appropriate that we, as a country, readdress them. We need to get it right. We need to find the right balance between protecting our security and protecting our liberty. If we fail in this effort by drawing the line in the wrong place, that is overly favoring liberty or security, then the terrorists win and liberty loses in either case.
**************************
I'd say all of this together is WAY more misleading that the pretense that a blow job isn't sex because there's no statutory penetration.
A warrant is a warrant.
While I would like to share Glen's hope, this administration is far more dangerous than Nixon and the opposition is far less effective. There are also a number of things that are likely to happen which will change everything in a heartbeat.
ReplyDelete1. Bush will declare complete victory and pull troops out of Iraq at a time deemed optimal for Republican advantage in the 2006 election. All the polls showing likely Democratic advances will be reversed and they are likely to actually lose seats. The total victory will be all spin, but it will fool enough people for long enough.
2. Military action against Iran (possibly nuclear) will create another crisis and take the hysteria to new levels. All the rhetoric we see now will be stepped up an order of magnitude. Democrats once again will support the administrations actions and undermine themselves.
3. George Bush's greatest benefactor, OBL, will strike the U.S. again. Democrats, the media and anyone who questions Bush has already been successfully blamed in advance for this inevitable event. Democratic will is wavering and weak now. It will be swept away.
There is a very powerful dynamic in play where the administration actually benefits politically from their own failures. They are more than willing to put the torch to most of the world to preserve themselves and keep this going. The more disastrous the consequences of their decisions, the more imperative it is to support them unconditionally. Only by breaking this dynamic and convincing Americans to hold those in power responsible for their actions, rather than the opposition or the victims, can they be brought down. I hope there is a way to make that happen, but right now I don't see it.
Sigh. It is over. The Dems will also, as per SOP, allow it to be over.
ReplyDeleteNo, it's not over! The Rs are trying to make it be over, and some Ds are rolling over, but there is a fight happening RIGHT NOW in the House Intel Committee over the scope of the hearings. Which is why I say, get thee over to VichyDems, read the first post for iron in your blood, then perform the Game Plan in the second post to keep the pressure on! People are asking, "what's the next step? What can we do?", and the answer is there.
**********
As to this gem: Members of both parties were informed of the program – albeit not enough members for my taste - & none of them raised a stink until well after the newspaper articles were printed. If there was a crime why did they or the NYT wait so long?
God, I love trolls. They're all fuzzy and warm and so soft, with no bone or muscle at all. It would have been a fucking CRIME to tell. It would have gotten the member yanked off the Intelligence Committee. Only after the news became public by another source did it become harmless for members to discuss it. Stop the disingenuous trolling and let the rest of us keep doing our work saving the world's greatest democracy so wingnuts like you can dwell in your basements in safety.
Jeez.
pmain-
ReplyDelete"Let's suppose that there is an investigation & the administration is found to have violated no laws...would you be willing to admit that you were wrong all along?"
Uhh, no. I, unlike you apparently, don't need someone else to handle all my rational thinking for me. Instead, I will admit that either the investigators and I disagree or that the investigators were not honest. I mean, unless they convince me, THROUGH REASONING. Even the investigators may not all agree.
Way to go Glenn!
ReplyDelete"FISA allows for roving wiretaps.
ReplyDeleteWarrants can and very often do describe very broad arrays of instrumentalities that can be accessed, tracked and utilized.
So no - don't see that it is a problem at all. What's your specific gripe?"
A roving wiretap is a specific type of warrant that must be obtained by accumulating a preponderance of evidence. That warrant allows you follow someone with multiple communcations capabilities. But even if you file with the Attorney through FISA and get 72 hours, you still have to make sure you have enough evidence that validates the high hurdle required of a roving wiretap warrant.
When you are chasing 5 or 10 thousand terrorists around in real time it is way too high of a hurdle to ask the NSA to jump.
Can you imagine the mountain of evidence that would have to be obtained for roving wiretap warrants on a thousand suspects?
From General Hayden:
If FISA worked just as well, why wouldn't I use FISA? To save typing? No. There is an operational impact here, and I have two paths in front of me, both of them lawful, one FISA, one the presidential -- the president's authorization. And we go down this path because our operational judgment is it is much more effective. So we do it for that reason."
My specific gripe is that for chasing terrorists, roving wiretaps are useful, but obtaining roving wiretap warrants through FISA is a process that is too overbearing for our national security needs.
This was overall a great post, but the kernel we all need never to lose sight of is that every time something like this happens, it's a sure sign they're scared. We're already starting to see the thieves fighting amongst themselves. That will only intensify as we get closer to the truth.
ReplyDeleteit's a real war and if we aren't willing to fight it
ReplyDeleteIf only liberals were willing to fight this hard against the people who want to skin our children in the public square. If only liberals were willing to fight this hard for the freedom and liberty of the productive classes to continue to produce wealth for this country. If only liberals would fight this hard against the destruction of substantial liberty by over-regulation and oppressive taxation.
Oh... and Prozac is now on sale in the lobby... ;-))
Says the "Dog"
No, it's not over!
ReplyDeleteTrue hope is swift, and flies with swallow's wings;
Kings it makes gods, and meaner creatures kings.
- William Shakespeare: King Richard III, Act 5 scene 2
I think it would be useful to stop arguing that Bush is breaking the law in order to catch criminals and terrorist. This is clearly not the case. FISA court would bend over backwards to accomodate on the smallest amount of evidence implicating someone in "Al Qaeda"
ReplyDeleteLet's face the facts and say it like it is. Bush is spying on his political opponents, media people, and folks who just can't stand him and his whole administration.
This is the only reason they wouldn't go into court.
Thank you so much, Glenn, I really needed that. Was Cheney a dope for hiding after the hunting accident? Yep. But hiding is status quo for this administration. Let's move beyond it and get back to the illegal activities of this bunch of criminals!
ReplyDeleteFor those of you who don't think Bushco are not "criminals" in the true sense of the word, get over it. Invading a country for no reason that we can discern (but I have an educated guess)getting 2,000+ soldiers killed and maiming 10's of thousands more, killing untold numbers of Iraqi innocent men, women and children and maiming up to 100,000's more IS criminal. And Bushco DID break the law with this spying scandal, I have no doubt of that.
My, my what a lot of fun everyone was having. Thanks to Glenn for the pep talk. I was going to respond to pmain but his writing had an eerie quality like something Karl Rove might say.
ReplyDeleteGovernment moves slowly and freedom needs attending to daily. So I strongly urge whenever you take the time to blow off steam or have a good point and post to a blog that you also cut and paste your comments to the newspapers, MSM and your representatives.
As: Barry said.
THE MOST RELEVANT POINT ABOUT THIS STORY), has been repeated many, many times
Or, maybe we should remember more of our history and do what Deep Throat said: FOLLOW THE MONEY!
It's the weekend, when phone rates are cheaper and staffers can't ask whether you're from their guy's home state. A GREAT time to leave voicemails venting your ire, lavishing your praise, or demanding obedience (depending on which Congressperson or Senator you're calling).
ReplyDeleteComplete contact info for all the key senators, talking points, everything you need to be a phone warrior, at VichyDems.
Second post down. (First one's a Glennish pep talk, in case you're still discouraged or think phone calling is useless and stupid!)
I'm serious. Make some calls. Especially, fill up Roberts' voicemails -- in DC and District offices -- with messages saying firmly but without obscenity what a traitor he is to everything America stands for. It feels good!
I think it would be useful to stop arguing that Bush is breaking the law in order to catch criminals and terrorist.
ReplyDeleteAnd it would be useful to stop beating your wife.
Only Bushies are arguing that, and it is, of course, useful to them to do so.
In case the nitwits who think the NSA program is making our country safer, a couple of fun links: here and here.
ReplyDeleteIt actually HURTS us by flooding our intelligence agencies with low-value data that keeps them from following up on higher-value leads, and it risks having both warrants and, ultimately, convictions based on unlawfully obtained evidence thrown out.
Keeping the FBI too busy at their desks to chase real terrorists, and making sure terrorists get to go free because the White House was too lazy to walk down the hall and get a (99.97% sure to be granted) FISA warrant. Only a Republican could be so stupid and so lazy simultaneously!
Or am I becoming testy in my old age?
dread scott,
ReplyDeleteGod, I love trolls. They're all fuzzy and warm and so soft, with no bone or muscle at all. It would have been a fucking CRIME to tell. It would have gotten the member yanked off the Intelligence Committee. Only after the news became public by another source did it become harmless for members to discuss it. Stop the disingenuous trolling and let the rest of us keep doing our work saving the world's greatest democracy so wingnuts like you can dwell in your basements in safety.
---------------------------
Dread, why did we not see a full, running documentation of the so-called violations by the democratic senators? All we have is a couple of post-it notes. If they were truly outrages and seething, we would have seen an ongoing deluge of protesting. The truth is they really didn't care much about it.
Or am I becoming testy in my old age?
ReplyDeleteIt isn't testy to speak the truth. The number of Republicans who aren't incredibly stupid and/or completely bereft of scruples is asymptotically declining.
I have two paths in front of me, both of them lawful, one FISA, one the presidential -- the president's authorization.
ReplyDeleteThe General's a liar; there is no such "lawful" "president's authorization", and he knows it,as does Abu Gonzales and the rest of this crowd.
Let's suppose that there is an investigation & the administration is found to have violated no laws...would you be willing to admit that you were wrong all along?
ReplyDeleteLet's suppose that there is an investigation & it is found that you are a clueless retard ...
Montreal said...
ReplyDeleteTo all Glenn's. readers.
Please, don't give up.
Patience is their best quality
And remember you will have to be as relentless and ruthless as they are.
Bon dia
Here's a sample of RNC membership's realization about the RNC leadership: The leadership is clueless and has no interest in finding facts, or following the law. [Click: To learn more about the RNC non-sense over the NSA issue.]
ReplyDeleteThe RNC has many reasons -- none of them compelling -- to ignore facts, not review matters, and violate the law. The RNC ground swell continues -- the membership knows its time to find new leaders, and compel the RNC leadership to pass new House rules of Congressional Conduct. [ Click ]
Today I read something from an interview with Lawrence Weschler that resonated:
ReplyDelete...for me, what is so powerful about Vermeer is that the creator of these images, images that are at the heart of our notions of peace, was in fact working in a world bracketed by war (17th-century Holland). For me, that’s what his paintings are about: how to live in peace in a time of war; how to find peace inside yourself and breathe it out. I’ve done a lot of reporting, as you know, in war zones, on torture and so forth. And what fascinates me about Vermeer is the invention of the inter-subjective: that notion that the person looking at me is another self, like my self. It’s the first time that happens in the history of art in a really profound way. And there’s a peace in that; peace lies in that. And that peace falls away when you lose that sense of common subject-hood, when people are no longer fellow selves, but Kikes or Kurds or Hutus or Tutsis or what have you.
If you've read Vermeer in Bosnia (and,if not, you should), you realize the amzing ability of Weschler to see these "convergences". To get to the point, I realized that, as you illustrated with your apt comparison to Watergate, we need to recognize the patterns emerging.
Yesterday, I succumbed to the sense of futility to which you referred (after reading the texts of Feingold's filibuster and Byrd's speech), reading your post, then watching (my own fault) the "news" of Pat Robertson's subterfuge, and wrote in a thread somewhere else:
There is a theme running through the posts and threads today; the dystopian state of life in America, where the most egregious offenses against out civil liberties can be assuaged in back room deals ; where benign sounding legislation, i.e., the Patriot Act, is used to label dissenters as unpatriotic (and therefore an enemy combatant); where every attempt to get at the truth is met with secrecy and stonewalling that would have had Stalin incredulous; where scandals of historical proportions are thrust upon the media and voracious public, creating the hope of finally toppling the regime, only to have their (our) hopes dashed upon the rocks of hopelessness and despair by the very people they hoped would defend their (our) laws and liberties (I'm beginning to think Cheney shot Whittington on purpose for this very scenario; producing a scandal that seems insurmountable only to have it laughed away - and soon forgotten.)...
Glen Greenwald keeps getting our hopes up (along with the likes of Feingold and Byrd) only to plumb new depths of despair when another giant step toward totalitarianism is personified by Cheney's sneer. Eventually we will stop trying to stop them.
The new Abu Ghraib photos can't even seem to get a rise out of the media. Read any five or any ten of the articles at Truthout.org. Like this blog, those voices, and many of us who write against this impending demise of our republic, the coming silence will be deafening.
I owe you an apology; your tenacity and perspicaciousness are inspiring, informative, and a lesson in democracy.
Pat Robertson's subterfuge
ReplyDeletePat Roberts; Pat Robertson is a different scumbag.
Also, it Glenn, not Glen. Please take the time to do people the courtesy of getting their names right.
Barry,
ReplyDeleteYou are wrong there, like any good attorney Glenn wants the jury, in this case his readers, to associate Bush & wiretapping w/ Nixon & Nixon’s guilt. Look at how his arguments have been shaped. Start off questioning the legality of the NSA program very objectively, then criticize Bush supporters & call them “cultists” or imply that they are just mindless followers. The real “cultists”, the ones who react emotionally & are anti-Bush no matter what, immediately have their view points reinforced & have been given additional ammunition against that which they hate. Further assert corruption by invoking images of unquestionable guilt – Nixon Administration – while implying similarities & let the jury believe that they have arrived at their own conclusions. They win the jury’s support & they root for his side blindly & trust it completely, because he has fed their vanity & emotions, all the while attacking the other side which they hate. Look at the emotional reactions of some commentors who were thrown off by the SJC dropping the investigation. He just had to add the specter of the Nixon Administration & they suddenly feel better & are ready to rejoin the crusade, until the next setback.
The problem w/ this approach, besides the fact that it is employed by every ambulance chaser out there, that it is very hard to maintain over a long time, so they have to constantly find new fuel to add to the fire. It’s the same thing over & over again. Florida was stolen, they’re racist, voter fraud, no WMDs, Bush lied, war going badly, Justices are bad & evil people, they’re trying to destroy our civil rights, they are corrupt, they lie, they are bad, they are like Nazi’s, etc, etc. Conjecture upon conjecture & all that they really accomplish is wearing out their supporter. The Republicans see this & do little to respond & let them tire themselves out or become so shrill that they appear too political, too emotion & too far removed from the common sense that the majority of Americans have, respect or look for in a candidate
pmain, why do you waste your time with so much (bad) writing, always saying the same thing and never without any factual basis? Each of your pieces just further convinces people here that you're a moron bereft of principles.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, I hear what you say. However, all of this attention is not going to result in anything. The events , history, WMD is just fading in the noise. NSA, Abu, Roberts, Reid, Alito. We are shouting to the sky. Dante never had it so good.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteYou are correct; I should have proofread my comments before posting. Of course I was referring to Senator Pat Roberts, who deserves the assigned disrespect.
Further apologies to Glenn.
My link leads to my actual name, which you may feel free to misspell, mispronounce, or mis-attribute as you see fit.
What I absolutely cannot figure out is why there isn't apparently a single Dem who was willing to shout from the rooftops for an up-or-down vote. Americans have been taught (thanks to the Republicans) to think that an up-or-down vote equates to a fair hearing. It sure seems like it would have been challenging for the Republicans to come up with an argument against a vote.
ReplyDeleteWhen Dems are handed such an obvious opportunity, why they don't jump on it like a loose ball at the Superbowl, I just don't get.
I'm not involved in politics, and I understand that a lot of strategic moves happen out of view. But still, there's a public component of politics, and the Dems publicly act like the Keystone Kops. Just don't get it.
A roving wiretap is a specific type of warrant that must be obtained by accumulating a preponderance of evidence.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you say that - I don't find that as the standard in FISA at all?????? It's the same standard as non-roving. They did not change what needed to be submitted or create some artificial "preponderance of evidence"???? issue that I can find anywhere - they just revise some the 1805 language on what the court can put in the order.
But even if you file with the Attorney through FISA and get 72 hours,
????? Are you talking about the 72 hours you get WITHOUT first filing through FISA?? It is a freebie time frame. THe worst that can happen is that the judge tells you that you should not have - but your liability is all covered as long as you go in within 72 hours. Look at the Medellin drug arrest several years back here in the states using the then existing - (and 'tougher') standards and there was hardly any delay even THEN in getting the authorization. I'm not sure what you mean.
you still have to make sure you have enough evidence that validates the high hurdle required of a roving wiretap warrant.
Where is that "high hurdle" - it just isn't there.
When you are chasing 5 or 10 thousand terrorists around in real time
Here in the states you have 5 or 10 thousand US citizens that you are chasing around in real time as being al-Qaeda? Uh, no. And everyone is pretty much in agreement that those you are chasing around in foreign countries don't need warrants.
it is way too high of a hurdle to ask the NSA to jump.
Can you imagine the mountain of evidence that would have to be obtained for roving wiretap warrants on a thousand suspects?
YOu mean after four years, no one has put together evidence? Then - is it just possible - those aren't terrorists after all?
From General Hayden:
If FISA worked just as well, why wouldn't I use FISA? To save typing? No.
Well, you know that he directly conflicts there with Gonzales, who said the paperwork was a part of the issue - and with you - since you seem to think the paperwork is the issue.
Since this is the same Hayden who gave statements to the JOint Inquiry that they were still following the 2000 rules, and the same Hayden who does not remember the warrant clause of the 4th even after having it pointed out to him repeatedly, I take what he says with a grain of salt.
I have two paths in front of me, both of them lawful, one FISA, one the presidential -- the president's authorization. And we go down this path because our operational judgment is it is much more effective. So we do it for that reason."
So he says that it is more "effective" to not obey the law. Wow - who doesn't say that? It was more effective for me to break the speed limit on the way to work etc. ANd guess what - he can't show that effect demonstrably. THe program has used untold resources and hours and has not even blocked Zawahiri and bin Laden from making and releasing videos. It will always be EASIER for the government to not follow the laws it imposes on others and in particular to not be bound by the Constitution.
Following the Constitution was not intended as the "EZ" route for government - but the required one, yes.
My specific gripe is that for chasing terrorists, roving wiretaps are useful, but obtaining roving wiretap warrants through FISA is a process that is too overbearing for our national security needs.
metricpenny said...
ReplyDeleteAll humor aside, and if you have the time, can you provide the hopeful with those in the media (non-Blog) you believe are truly investigating?
Try this site
www.consortiumnews.com
Robert Parry is an EXCELLENT reporter, and his site is a wealth of information regarding the Who's who running the GOP these days
And regarding dog's usual suspect "liberal bs blather"
If only the ChickenHwaks would put themselves in the boots of those under the helmet & behind the trigger they DELIBERATELY sent into combat without enough effective body & vehicle armor
If only the ChickenHawks felt Saddam Hussein's human rights abuses were worth mentioning BEFORE the invasion & occupation
If only some ChickenHawk loving lackey hadn't tried to scrub some of the White HOuse's pages by redirecting links I posted in a recent entry about Dear Leader W moving Jack Abramoff's agenda
http://royallykranked.blogspot.com/2006/01/boy-i-was-pissed-off-yesterday-with.html
If only ChickeHawks really believed in all that blather about how a "Smaller Fed Govt is better", as opposed to spreading their legs & whoring themselves out now that they've got their hands on undreamed of Federal Power
Yeah, I know, such "if only's" have no basis in logical reality for the dwindling number of Dear Leader W's True Believers/Lackeys
And thanks for the boost Glenn, VERY much appreciated & needed for myself
The Bush Cultist were fans of John Wayne movies. Bet you guys $100 on it. That's how they see him. It's a meme carefully built by Rove and Co and the reason for his extreme fixation on fitness. He probably sees himself as the modern Johm Wayne character.
ReplyDeleteGlenn,
ReplyDeleteThank you for this post today. It was uplifting at the time I needed uplifting the most.
sunny said:
ReplyDeleteLet's face the facts and say it like it is. Bush is spying on his political opponents, media people, and folks who just can't stand him and his whole administration.
This is the only reason they wouldn't go into court.
Bush is spying on his political opponents and blackmailing them with the information he has obtained illegally. That's why we see so little resistance on both sides of the aisle to Bush's blatently unconstitutional actions.
Oh, there you are, Dog. I thought maybe you were ignoring me. You're not ignoring me are you, my sweet puppy?
ReplyDeleteSays your "Homerotic"
Pmain, you may disagree with Glenn (though I confess I have trouble seeing how), but shrill? His posts are pretty much the antithesis of shrill – which is one reason he’s leapt to the top of my must-read list.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the timeline of the program’s disclosure, I believe the Times had the story in October 2004 and held it, at the Administration’s request; if their motive had been political, it’s hard to think of a better time to have published than that. The next-best political option would probably be this summer; certainly not a full year before the midterms. And fyi, they finally went with the story because the reporter’s (Risen’s) book was about to come out, and he apparently made clear to his editors that he and his publisher weren’t waiting.
As for the senators and congressfolk who were briefed, others here have noted that they were prohibited from revealing anything to the public; that they did, and still do, express grave concern about the program’s legality (to say no more) is by now well documented.
And there really is no argument about the legality, based on the plain language of the fourth amendment (repeatedly misquoted by the NSA’s former head!) and of the FISA law (as amended in the Patriot Act to the President’s specifications, about which he expressed great satisfaction), and as reflected in the FISA judges’ treatment of the fruits of those searches. The only legal argument really is Nixon’s: "if the president does it, that means it’s not illegal." Hard to reconcile that view with the Federalist Papers.
But I want to thank you, pmain, for your (generally) civil tone here. And many, many thanks to you, Glenn, for your wonderful work.
Thank you very much Glenn. I had a sweeping feeling of sadness at the news of this Robert's move.
ReplyDeleteBut, you are right...all is never lost hard work and resiliance are what's needed now.
Thank you again Glenn for all your great work.
But I want to thank you, pmain, for your (generally) civil tone here.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing civil about pmain's charges that we're the real cultists, that we're politically motivated, etc. S/he's a lying sack of shit, and nothing is gained by playing nice-nice with such people.
Point of clarification - I believe that Joseph McCarthy was replace by the late, great Gaylord Nelson, not William Proxmire. Gaylord was anti-war, pro-consumer and founder of Earth Day. After retirement he was counsel for the Wilderness Society. Stood up to Mayor Daley during the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago. Feingold is Gaylord Nelson reincarnate, and boy do we need him now!
ReplyDeleteThere's a common pattern:
ReplyDeleteClick and the RNC membership is waking up.
i get discouraged also but i also have to laugh at times.
ReplyDeletethe republicans are missing one important point right now.they are doing to themselves while doing to us on this issue.
they doing to their own families,friends and business partners exactly what they doing to us.and who do you think will be targetted when this power gets abused?when it comes down to money?
and it will.history repeats.
so when roberts was spouting i was laughing at how he had done himself up.
br3n
Thanks, Glenn. Count me among the miserable yesterday, primarily because once again, I'd fallen for the "moderate Republican" nonsense about finally doing the right thing. I still keep hoping we'll see people in the streets but maybe those days are gone. I'm also wondering what the ABA is going to do, beyond write a letter, to oppose domestic spying. Thanks again for the reality check.
ReplyDeleteThe dog said:
ReplyDelete"If only liberals were willing to fight this hard for the freedom and liberty of the productive classes to continue to produce wealth for this country."
This is exactly what liberals fight for, the productive class, the workers.
The workers in America are the productive class, for without workers there is no wealth. A CEO cannot provide goods and services without workers. If a CEO took the day off, wealth would still be created. If all the workers took the day off, production would come to a halt.
Liberals fight for workers to earn better wages. If the Republicans in Washington were concerned about workers, the true productive class, they would have raised the minimum wage, instead of cutting taxes, for the Paris Hiltons of the world.
Notice what the RNC approach: [See just above: Says the "Dog" 2:48 AM]
ReplyDelete1. Listening problems: Can't take feedback
The RNC has a hard time facting reality. Look at the response when they are confronted with reality:
Whining about feedback:
Anonymous and typical liberal commenter here and everywhere else said: Fucking racist fascist. "productive classes" indeed. Rot in hell, Dog.
Examples: Look at the RNC approach to criminal conduct: The retaliate against whistleblowers. That doesn't solve the problem.
2. Delusional: Pretends to have a higher standard -- but they ignore it
One sign of a problem is when the RNC asserts a standard -- that others should meet -- but the RNC competetely fails to meet that standard.
Sample comment: QUOTE: "My how open minded and tolerant you are. Liberals always for diversity, just so everyone thinks alike. No room for diversity of thought in the typical liberal mind."
Do they look in the mirror? No.
Other Examples: The RNC refuses to openly embrace new ideas to assert the rule of law; they are only open to new ways to violate the law: NSA, Torture, Rendition, war crimes.
3. Avoiding the issues: Implies others have a problem
It's one thing to have a discussion, quite another to offer nothing of substance.
Look at this Example: QUOTE: "As I said in my original post. Prozac is now on sale in the lobby. I suggest you run, don't walk, but run to the lobby now.
Says the "Dog" 2:48 AM"
Summary
The RNC has a problem. It has no credible defense for the NSA lawlessness.
* They have many excuses not to look at issues: [ Click ]
* The RNC has a simple template: Recklessness. [ Click ]
The membership is well trained to pretend otherwise.
How do I know? I'm a Republican, in the RNC, and I'm a right wing conservative hawk. The RNC is a cess pool.
Glenn writes, "Instead, Roberts merely invoked a procedural device as Chairman to prevent a vote, for now, from taking place." Why not vote? Because the RNC will have to commit, "We are not for fact finding or for the rule of law; or we are against this President." They are in a no win situation.
ReplyDeleteThere's a solution. A State proclamation will force a vote on impeachment, and there's nothing the RNC can do to hide this: They cannot invoke any procedure to hide this in committee, or preventing a vote on impeachment:[ Click ]
Here's a list of the RNC non-sense not to ignore the NSA issues, all are frivolous reasons: [ Click ]
Notice the RNC patterns: They do the same things in Abu Ghraib, Guantanano, Katrina, and the NSA [ Click ]
There's nothing the RNC can do to avoid a vote on impeachment: Then the country will know: Who is with the President's rebellion, and who is against the Constitution.
RJ,
ReplyDeleteFirst, I want to thank you for the kind words & you are right, I generally do agree w/ Glenn about the importance of the need for an investigation. He has raised several points & questions regarding the NSA wiretaps that I think need to & should be answered by the administration. I have only questioned the political nature of the release & still do. Once again, don’t the points you raised about the NYT & its release of the story, beg certain questions? If the information was so important & if the program is as dangerous as the majority of commentors here suggest, why didn’t they release it then? You are asserting that it was solely due to respect for the wishes of the Bush Administration & that they only did it to avoid be “scooped” by Risen’s book- which incidentally was published by Harper Collins who is owned by News Corporation & in turn Rupert Murdoch & Fox News. While I can agree that the NYT would love to scoop the owner of Fox News, isn’t it funny to suggest that the NYT did this as a sign of respect to an administration they do not respect? You are right that they could have released it before the 2004 elections. Why didn’t they? Doesn’t that show that the information is highly questionable in of itself? None of the Democrats that knew about it leaked any information, the NYT sat on its hands & it took a Fox owned company to force them to release it at a time that they didn’t want to. They did it to prevent being “scooped” but that fails to explain why they sat on important information regarding something as important as domestic spying all along. My guess is that they wanted to wait until closer to the elections of ’06 or ’08 & that their hand was forced & it seemed better to release it & hope that enough of a controversy could be generated to affect the upcoming mid-term elections.
However, Glenn & I disagree about supporters of Bush being “cultists”. I believe that there are mindless ideologues enough on both sides, but suggest in my previous post that it is merely a rouse to motivate the “shrill” portion of the anti-Bush side & to possibly generate increased web traffic (suggested in other posts, regarding different articles by Glenn). Who wouldn't want that high numered DKOS traffic?
I have found his reasoning & writing quite enjoyable & informative & truly enjoy the competent, well reasoned views regarding the NSA wiretaps. I have even thanked him for them. I never intentionally suggested that he himself was shrill, I believe that you’ll find that portion represented well enough from the anonymous commentors here & above, representing both sides of the political spectrum.
Great and interesting discussion.
ReplyDeletePmain's point way back is right: much will depend on what Bush has actually been doing all this for.
If it's truly just 1st or 2nd degree tapping of people on Al Queda call lists it will turn out to be no big deal for Bush and Dems will suffer for raising a fuss.
If Bush has been datamining many thousands and tapping a few thousand phone calls, the vast majority of which yield no useful intelligence and just waste time, then Bush will suffer a little, FISA will be rewritten and this will blow over. That's consistent with what's been revealed so far.
If it turns out (as I expect) that the real issue is that they've used the full snooping power of the Echelon system to snoop on every email, cell call, and phone call in America, then Bush will fight it right to the end and people will be very unhappy with Bush and we will have a serious national discussion about privacy in the age of AI-powered snooping.
If it goes one step farther and it turns out they've been using the information-gathering power of Echelon for somehow influencing domestic politics, then this will be a true Watergate but much more serious. In that case, Bush will get impeached.
I'm with those who stand firmly with the constitution and for truth from our leaders. I'm also really worried that bin Laden has a nuke (http://citypages.com/databank/27/1315/article14125.asp) so I'm not sure how much privacy we should give up. What's Manhattan worth, if it comes to that?
At the very least, we have to fight unendingly for the principle that no one is above the law.
Thanks for the start of this Glenn.
Remember what Glenn said: This has been accomplished in 2 months. And the RNC is running out of options.
ReplyDeleteSupport for impeachment is growing:
[ Click ]
And, there is a way to break the gridlock. A state proclamation calling for Congress to investigate and impeach cannot be buried in Committee. { Here's how: Click Here's the progress [ Click ] }
There's no reason to wait -- be determined! The RNC continues to fracture. Your pressure is making a difference -- every single comment you make is one more problem DoJ, the White House, and DIA have to contend with.
Tate said: "Sign his petition And make a contribution if you can.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.progressivepatriotsfund.com/"
OK. I signed the petition, sent a donation, and sent the petition to everyone I know, asking each person to send it to ten others, and ask those ten others to send it to ten others, etc.
The True Patriots are lining up:
Glenn Greenwald, Paul Craig Roberts, Thersites, Lew Rockewell, but the most visible of them, the one who has some power and who can be the most important ally is Feingold. As a first step, we have to support him. Post the info about the petition on every blog. Send it to all your friends. He is looking for 10,000 signatures. Let's help him get 100,000. This is a unique, immediate way to make our voices heard, while we continue to read Glenn and follow any suggestions he gives us.
Also, could someone tell me how to post a link? Step by step, with spaces and everything, as I am not that computer literate. Also, if I put that little i with the brackets around it before and after a quote, it doesn't go through. An error message says I have not "closed the quote." If someone could help me with those, I would really appreciate it.
Altho I thank Glenn for giving us the Nixon timeline and trying to help us feel better, I also err on the side of Delphine and Dread Scot. What the post leaves out, Glenn, in addition to their comments around the differences in administration and press, is the fact that Bush's numbers are already down, the public already doesn't trust him, and most of those in power don't care - and neither does, it may seem, the mainstream press. Who is going to investigate, besides "those crazy left-wing bloggers," and after they do, who is going to give it the - I'd say press, but let's call it what it is - campaigning it needs?
ReplyDelete. . . There is a way to force this Government to face the issues on NSA, the rule of law, and unlawful conduct: [ Click ]
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 3:50 AM Posting links
ReplyDeleteAh, I think I may know the reason for the italics problem. The sign I will use for the carrots is this link. Maybe the second italics needs that dash?
Here is a step by step how to post a link. I will pretend that the link is to something called "YOUR TEXT.COM"
Look in the google search box how to do this: Click the links on what it should look like
1. Write your text
2. Add this in front of the text you want to link: Click. Be sure to include the double quoration.
3. Put the text you want to link after step 2: SO it will look like this: Click
4. Make sure your font is correct: Click
5. Add your link: Click.
6. Add the end quotation: Click
7. Add the end carrot: Click
8. Add your text that you want to link: Click
9. At the end of the word, add the carrots, forward slash and a -- to look like this Click.
There is nothing civil about pmain's charges that we're the real cultists, that we're politically motivated, etc. S/he's a lying sack of shit, and nothing is gained by playing nice-nice with such people.
ReplyDeleteThat's really not the tone that is usual around here; Glenn (usually) posts intellectually rigorous analyses of serious issues and so tends to attract a relatively sophisticated readership, whose comments tend to be civil and substantive. There have always been exceptions, but few descents into that kind of sheer nastiness.
They don't play "nicey-nice" at Usenet, either, but that isn't generally reputed to be where the reasonable and intelligent discussions occur. There is a relationship to be found between those two facts.
Pmain, I think your own response refutes your political hypothesis:
ReplyDelete“isn’t it funny to suggest that the NYT did this as a sign of respect to an administration they do not respect?” They held the story not out of respect for the Administration per se, but out of respect for the national-security concerns the Administration expressed. It’s hardly the first time a supposedly liberal paper has done so; we love our country too.
“You are right that they could have released it before the 2004 elections. Why didn’t they?” See above. “Doesn’t that show that the information is highly questionable in of itself?” Hardly; see above. “None of the Democrats that knew about it leaked any information.” Again, if they had, they’d be in prison now.
“My guess is that they wanted to wait until closer to the elections of ’06 or ’08 & … it seemed better to release it & hope that enough of a controversy could be generated to affect the … mid-term elections.” This makes no sense to me; why would ’06 or ’08 be better than ’04? And again, to have an effect in ’06 the better course would have been to wait until the thick of the campaign season rather than publish in late ’05.
I’d respectfully suggest that your premises reveal some presuppositions that are keeping you from seeing this clearly. You begin with the assumption that the Times always has a political angle to their editorial decisions, so all your theories have to do with figuring the angle. I know conservatives believe that -- in fact, one of the things most responsible for making people like me “shrill” has been the decades-long effort on the right to discredit the very idea of “objective” journalism, with the result that journalists are afraid to be objective if the result will make conservatives unhappy (stop howling -- it’s true). The Times’ editorial page? Pretty liberal (though not on all issues, by a long shot). The news pages? Not so much; really. (Don’t forget, the Times was the paper that published the most compelling prewar stories suggesting Saddam possessed WMD -- stories that have been proven false, of course).
As for the idea that Glenn’s trying to rouse the fringe and boost his numbers: maybe this will give you some perspective. My dad is a greatest-generation Truman Democrat, who voted for Reagan because he thought Carter was too soft on the Soviets; whenever I was furious or despondent about the political situation, he was calm and told me not to worry, that the Republic would endure. My dad doesn’t sound that way anymore; he thinks these guys are endangering our system of government. He sounds, in short, like Glenn.
I think the Judicial Committee is the really big thing on this. If what the administration is doing isn't legal, then the operational aspects of what is going on will be looked at. I don't trust Specter because in his pre-Committee letter to Gonzales he asks if they Administration will now bring it under FISA, so I have the sneaking suspicion that he is the one who came up with this Nixon Amendment idea. So, I'm not that confident about how far the JC is going to go. What the press does might be more important, and I think that this Cheney shooting thing has gotten them a bit pissed off.
ReplyDeleteCarl Levin was on LKL today, and he said the country has changed, in fact, imploded. He said it doesn't matter who is President, that Congress is totally corrupt, interested only in money, that nobody cares about what happens to the country, it's the pure, raw pursuit of money that is motivating all our politicians. How did it get to this?
ReplyDeleteIn any case, immediate actions should be to go to VichyDem to get the numbers, and call Roberts, to condemn him, Feingold, to support him, and Specter to say we are with him (assuming it does not come out that he acted improperly) and we will not let this strangely leaked Rovian "scandal" turn us against him. If Specter sees that he has a base behind him, he'll be invigorated.
Then call and write everyone you can think of. Reading Glenn's posts are inspirational. Debating trolls on this site is wasting time better spent doing things to promote our cause.
Constant's site has good links to worthwhile articles also, and one should always read the latest Paul Craig Roberts articles.
Forget about Daily Kos. It's a partisan site only interested in getting Democrats in office. They care much less about the issues which are driving those on this site.
I wrote my senator on the commitee -- FWIW. I doubt it will do much good, being that he is a true believer type and a monkey for the camera, but I did it nonetheless.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, I believe james is correct. The fed-up media will play a critical role.
to hypatia: just ignore the rabble. You have always been treated fairly here, despite some of the nonsense you have put forth. You made it very hard on others with some very obtuse comments in the past. To tut tut anyone at this date is to ignore your past here. I don't mean to put you down, but you gave Glenn a very hard time in the past.
Thank you Glenn, again for your voice.
Hey Gedaliya, I thought you said Muslims wanted to skin our children? Why then to the Republicans want to turn over our ports to them?
ReplyDeleteCould the answer be there's a trail of $$$$$ to follow? Who lobbied whom to let an Islamic group take over our ports?
I would like Glenn's opinion on something. There's a lot of evidence that Busco and the neocons are close to pushing our country toward some kind of military action against Iran.
ReplyDeleteAnd if they want to, who's going to stop them? What's ironic is that it now looks like the only thing that can stop them is CAPITALISM. China's desire to lock up 100 billion dollars worth of Iranian oil might be the only thing that can derail this administration's plans to attack Iran.
Unless someone shows me I am wrong, I am hoping that China and Iran clinch their deal so a really insane, suicidal war effort is avoided.
Yay for capitalism!!!! Remember when we used to have it in this country, before the lunatic neocon world domination power mad crowd took control of our government and fourth estate?
Don't get me wrong, this administration deserves a shellacking for its usurpation of power. However, comparisions with the "Saturday Night Massacre" are premature, to say the least.
ReplyDeleteThat move was seen as the last act of a desperate man who had been fatally wounded by the steady stream of leaks from "Deep Throat" and others.
With the massacre, those revelations and congress in the hands of an opposition party, it was pretty clear to everyone at the time that Nixon could not stop the momentum for impeachment.
Unless there are fresh revelations, I fear this latest episode will end up going nowhere.
Dubai Ports World is controlled by the UAE royal family. The decision to grant the $6.8 billion sale to Dubai was made by the Committee on Foreign Investments in the United States . Who sits on the committee? ..... Gonzales, Rice, Rumsfeld, Snow, and other Bush administration officials....
ReplyDeleteNew York senator Chuck Schumer and others said US ports were "the most vulnerable targets for terrorist attack". They questioned whether DP World, which is owned and controlled by Dubai, should be allowed to take over P&O, charging that Dubai was a "key transfer point" for shipments of nuclear components bound for Iran, North Korea and Libya.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteSome thoughts on this latest Greenwald entry:
ReplyDeleteHis post contends that the Bush administration's policy of monitoring communications between al Qaeda suspects overseas and their American correspondents is a "scandal."
Building on this amusing (and wholly specious) premise, Glenn exhaustively elucidates (has anyone more desperately needed an editor than Glenn Greenwald??) a scenario in which the Bush presidency, Nixon-like, crashes and burns in humiliation and ignominy. Glenn even spends (sparing no economy) hundreds of words reminding his "morbidly depressed" readership that it took "2 1/2 years from the time it began until Nixon left office," in order to reassure his Bush-hating constituency that there is still hope for them to realize their most cherished and desperate dream of a premature end to the despised Bush presidency.
There is no doubt that there is a controversy over whether the president has the authority to monitor, warrantless, the described communications. But is this a "scandal"? What makes this a "scandal"? Actually nothing in the real world makes it so, and as far as I can tell, outside of the leftoid fever swamp, no one is referring to it thusly.
What makes it a "scandal" in the Greenwald universe is the necessity to bring hope to his "morbidly depressed" readership, and nothing more. After all, if this is not actually a "scandal," then it has no potential to bring down the Bush presidency, and where would we be then? The thought is too terrible to contemplate. In the Greenwald universe planets would fall out of orbit and the sun would explode. Not a pretty thought.
Folks, this is not a "scandal." This is a political controversy. These things happen in constitutional republics, as many of you seem to have forgotten. The Bush administration is implementing policies that his political opponents, well, oppose, and we are witnessing (and some of us participating in) a debate about how to proceed. As usual in these matters, the argument is likely to be resolved through a mechanism well-tested in the United States, something many of you may have heard about. It's called a "compromise." I know this is anathema to those in the Bush-hating foam-mouth brigade, but that is what is most likely to occur.
The Bush presidency will not collapse over this controversy. There is no there there, to borrow a phrase. In a few weeks this little contretemps will completely disappear. At that point (undoubtedly before that point), we'll see another million word post from Glenn elevating another political dispute into a "scandal," and we'll go through this entire exercise once again.
Ultimately, all this merits a big ho-hum. But don't despair, Bush haters! Perhaps there will be some other Bush policy decision that will bring down his presidency....but please, take some advice from a longtime observer of the political landscape...don't hold your breath.
Right Gedaliya, the White House is pressuring the Senate because they're NOT worried
ReplyDeleteIf you're really stupid enough to believe that, I'll bet you're sure those WsMD will turn up anytime now in Iraq
Boy, Glenn sure nailed you hypocritical "small Govt is better unless WE have the Federal Govt all in our hands" dead on target
So keep whistling past the political graveyard with your fingers jammed tightly in your ears humming "lalalalalalalala I'm not listening I'm not listening lalalalalalalala"
You sure used a lot of words telling us what a non issue this is
Your word count shows even you don't believe your own blather
Glenn Greenwald is god's great gift of 2005 to the democrats.
ReplyDeleteKeep the history coming Glenn, because too many, young and old, have completely lost their perspective. I grew up in a house where there were videotapes of the entire Nixon hearings filed neatly under the television, with parent who fell in love at the 1972 Democratic convention, but anyone under 40 who was not simmered in an environment like that probably has no real idea of what it took to bring Nixon down. Long hard slog is right...
daphne declares: You have always been treated fairly here, despite some of the nonsense you have put forth. You made it very hard on others with some very obtuse comments in the past. To tut tut anyone at this date is to ignore your past here. I don't mean to put you down, but you gave Glenn a very hard time in the past.
ReplyDeleteAssuming, arguendo, that I have set forth "nonsense" and "obtuse comments" that gave Glenn a "hard time," I never told him or anyone else they are shits and liars, fucking jerks or any of the other oh-so-insightful ad hominems that can be found at many blogs or on Usenet. Nor has Glenn so addressed me or anyone else who disagrees with him.
When I hold a strong opinion I will be quite vigorous in my proclamation of it, and tenacious in my discussions with those who disagree; such is the nature of stimulating debate. It would certainly seem Glenn can more than hold his own when dealing with such a situation, but he is civil, as am I. That's the general MO around here, and in my view it would be good if it stayed that way.
That said, clever attacks can amuse me. For that reason I -- at least initially -- have found Homoerotic Simpson's stuff to Dog entertaining.
Those of us depressed over the events of the past few weeks are "borderline self-pitying"? Don't be so arrogant Glenn. I have always respected your work and your efforts, but you are not the final authority on all things involving this scandal. And unless the Democrats have told you something you are not telling us, you may be speaking a bit too soon.
ReplyDeleteNo,those of us who are fed up at this point, are not "self-pitying." While we may not be privy to the halls of power like you are Glenn, some of us have watched the "larger context"of this administration unfold since Bush took office, and we are still waiting for something resembling justice. Each scandal is bigger than the last and each one gets dutifully swept under the rug, while mainstream apologists tell us to give the dems a break and to not worry, just wait- something will eventually come of all of this. Well, I am still waiting for democracy to rear its head.
The events of this past week demonstrate that the administration have the media in their back pocket, as the shooting incident absorbed 110% of the media's and the blogosphere's attention. And unless the dems can get their act together and unify in some coherent manner and take back at least ONE house of Congress, I don't see shills like Pat Roberts giving way anytime soon and how this NSA scandal is resolved may very well be dependent on the likes of he and Senator DeWine.
"but please, take some advice from a longtime observer of the political landscape...don't hold your breath."
ReplyDeleteFess up, Gedaliya, you are a little more than a "longtime observer" of the political landscape. You are a bought and paid for "hired fingers" for Bushco. Used to associating with dimmer wits as you apparently are, you for some misguided reason think your evangelical version of Tokyo Rose is effective on a site like this. It's not.
Spare us the "fringe left" propaganda from now on, please. I would venture that at least half on this site are Republlicans, as I am.
You are a bought and paid for "hired fingers" for Bushco.
ReplyDeleteLet me get this straight. You actually believe that "Bushco" hires people to write comments in leftist blogs?
Or are you simply speaking metaphorically?
akadad said:
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly what liberals fight for, the productive class, the workers.
If only that were really true. The truth is that democrats and liberals don't give a crap about workers. They oppose almost everything that would really help workers, their families, and their children in order to protect LABOR UNION power. As a result they oppose school choice, they support mandatory union law membership which is used to keep people out of certain kinds of higher paying jobs, etc etc etc.
You also seem to be under the impression that CEO's of large companies are the "productive classes" to which I referred. They aren't. CEO's of large companies are just as likely to be democrats as republicans. Ultra wealthy individuals are MORE likely to be democrats than republicans. The productive classes to which I referred are the entrepreneurs, and risk takers, who create new companies and create new wealth and create over 50% of the jobs in this country for those workers you support that aren't willing to take the risks and work the uncompensated hours that the entrepreneurs of this country regularly work. The productive classes also include the people who go to work everyday and give a good days work for the pay they agreed to receive. These people are the backbone of the country.
You've got the right idea, support the workers, but you need to stop supporting policies and a party who confuses support for workers with support for big labor union power. They aren't the same thing, and they haven't been the same thing since around 1950.
Says the "Dog"
All the bush loyalists will be put in an awkward position when Bush is no longer in office. Even far right activists Grover Norquist opposing the NSA spying and asks his fellow republicans how they would respond if and when a democrat, even say, hillary clinton, occupies the Exective Branch- will they be willing to act as apologist for such law-breaking in the name of "national security" or will they cry foul?
ReplyDeleteJudging from their hypocrisy, I am guessing they will/would cry foul with any similar presidential power-grab.
We all remember how they doggedly investigated every scandal that reared its head during the Clinton years. We all remember how the GOP gave impassioned speeches about how the POTUS is not above the rule law on any issue.
But the media never dains to point out this hypocrisy. Ever. The Right questioned clinton's use of the military in Kosovo and constantly complained about having no exit strategy but then turn around and call any criticism of Bush's policy on Iraq, "unamerican" and "aiding our enemy."
I really can't think of a single thing that the Bush loyalists would oppose- so long as it's Bush doing it.
It really shouldn't be a partisan issue and in some ways, it's not- many conservatives and GOPers are very troubled by what the administration is doing. But the hard core Bush loyalists will stick a stamp of approval on any BUsh action because it's bush and so long as he uses the phrase "national security" in his rationale.
Poop Doggy Dog,
ReplyDeleteFortunately the net doesn't have a scoop law or your new master would have to pick up that last steaming pile of a post you left.
According to your superficial, factless analysis, it's the REPUBLICANS that care about the workers and the UNIONS that don't. Not too bright, but you are entertaining. At least to me, anyway.
I also checked out your blog. I wanted to leave a comment (which would have increased your comments by 50%), but you don't have an open post policy and you I have to have a blog as well? Why's that? Finally, it takes more than a blog account to be a blogger, pup.
Says your "Homerotic"
DeWine is DeDumbass… a sentence-by-sentence deconstruction of his ridiculous defense of illegal spying is here…
ReplyDeletehttp://blogdebogs.blogspot.com/2006/02/spill-dewine.html
Mike Dewine gave this speech, when voting to impeach Clinton.
ReplyDelete"The law is indeed king in America. There isn't one law for the powerful and one for the meek. That is what we mean when we say we are a `nation of laws.' We elect a President to enforce these laws. In fact, the Constitution commands that the President `take care that the laws be faithfully executed."
"How can we allow a man who has obstructed justice and committed perjury to remain as the chief law enforcement officer of our country? How can we call ourselves a nation of laws and leave a man in office who has flouted those laws? We define ourselves as a people not just by what we hold up, not just by what we revere, but we also define ourselves by what we tolerate. I submit that this is something we simply, as a people, cannot tolerate."
"Mr. Chief Justice, I will vote to convict the President on both counts and to remove him from office."
Funny how he sings a different tune, when it comes to a President of his own party...
"You know, there's been some controversy about whether or not this program is legal or is not legal. I think we need to get beyond that."
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
ReplyDeleteEven though I was two-years-old when Nixon resigned, from what I've read on this subject, there were dry spells during this scandal. But yet I think when people read about history, there's a misconception that events happened faster than they really did.
Thanks again.
RJ,
ReplyDeleteYeah, I totally goofed that one & thought I was making the point I wanted, but indeed mixed it up completely. I apologize, I was running late & felt hurried & only briefly edited it before posting.
The point I was making was this: The NYT knew the information & held it back for over a year. If the Bush Administration was indeed violating American civil rights, it doesn’t seem very likely to me that they would hold the information back – much less the Democrats in the House & Senate that were informed as well. One reason could be that the information they had isn’t really that damning, but the very suggestion of such impropriety would definitely tarnish the administration politically – regardless of whether or not it was true. I can see this explaining why the Democrats held on to the information as well. If the information was true, this does not explain why they held onto it for over a year. Their own Ombudsman (sp?) has questioned about it & was never given a straight forward answer either, I doubt we will ever know the truth.
They (the NYT) do not respect or like this administration – 32 straight front page stories on Abu Ghraib show this. Notice that the repeated RAPING (implied but never reported) & torture of every captured female American soldier has never once made front page news, much less the beheadings. Can you imagine if rape was suggested about the US military… oh wait it has & it ran front page – but was later proven to be comletly false. While they did run Nick Berg’s story on the front page prior to his death, it wasn’t there 2 or 3 days straight, much less 32 times straight.
I’ll admit that the photos of Abu Ghraib are sickening, but they aren’t nearly as sickening as the treatment of contractors, western civilians or captured US personnel (not to mention fellow muslims) which should have been used to add context to the photos to be fair. They also don’t mention that all information regarding Abu & Gitmo has come from the military itself until the end of every piece (if at all) & it is never suggested in the head-lines ever. Even Pol Pot Durbin only referred to FBI reports & not his actual visits to Gitmo. So to say that they are objective towards this administration is false. I am talking about front page news, not the editorials. If we discuss the editorials, there are over 3 different letters written & submitted that were either pro-Bush or pro-military & they were edited, or the context was changed to show a more negative viewpoint. They have apologized or corrected 2 of the 3. Are you suggesting that the NYT editorial pages are balanced?
So why would they hold onto this information until they did? Simple & most reasonable answer available is that they were holding onto it to use as a political bomb. If the Risen’s book wasn’t going to be released you’ll agree that they probably would have held onto it longer. To what purpose? Either it isn’t very telling or it is, I think it is. Since they dislike the current administration, I cannot expect that they did it out of respect. Since they have already released classified information previously, it wasn’t because it was illegal… that leaves only its use as a political bomb or smear tactic & nothing else. Since their hand was forced, they released it as close to & during the slowest news period of the year to maximize the political effects regarding the ’06 mid-term elections. Risen’s book was then forced to be released well before its original publishing date because of this.
In answer to why not in ’04, & I can only guess about this, but I would have to say that they simply thought Kerry was going to win or thought that the Abu Ghraib was having enough of an effect for them to get their way. It reality, I would venture to say that they either hadn’t confirmed it & it wasn’t true or it would have back-fired on them. The beautiful thing about releasing it well before an election, as opposed to a month or several weeks before, is that the controversy gets to permeate & build. While the Bush administration may well put this whole thing to rest, the talking points have then become imbedded & a part of the national dialog on the Democrat’s side, w/o having the damning blow-back effect. A great example of this blow-back effect was the LAT’s article suggesting that Arnold Schwarzenegger’s father was a Nazi. It totally back-fired on the supposedly objective press & made them look plain silly & totally partisan.
Conservatives do indeed view the NYT & LAT as liberal papers & it is decidedly well deserved. What is the number of positive articles written about conservatives vs. negative? How many Presidential Republican candidates have the NYT or LAT endorsed over the last 50 years? Your father even preferred Reagan to Carter, what about the NYT? Are their editorial pages even split or more in favor of Democratic viewpoints & politicians? No rational personal could ever argue that the NYT is objective regarding Democrats or Republicans. While they may be informative, they are no where near close to be objective. That is fine & that is reality. I am not complaining about that, but because it is true, when they release or hold onto information it must be questioned, because they are definitely rooting or favoring one side over the other consistently. I would say the same about any conservative paper, author or blogger & would have to respect your questioning of them.
Since I agree that the program should be investigated & that it is really something that shouldn’t be reduced to talking points, I fail to see why those that immediately assume guilt cannot let go of the assumptions long enough to admit it may turn out to be nothing but another politically motivated tactic blown up to reflect badly on the President & make the Democrats appear better in the contrast. Talk about a lack of objectivity! & I am considered the “cultist” here because I still support a war-time President & refuse to convict w/o an investigation being conducted, proof being released or a complete defense being given.
Hopefully this clarifies my point & I want to again apologize for rushing out something so haphazardly & poorly written. Thank you for calling me on it.
I wonder how many Americans realize the profound implications of what Bush is doing and where it can lead if he is not decisively repudiated. He doesn't deny that he secretly set up a program that spies on Americans without probable cause to believe they are committing crimes. We are being treated as people who do not have the right to know with what we are charged before our conversations, communications and perhaps homes are invaded. The results are kept secret from us, and Bush refuses to say whether they are retained, perhaps to be used as "evidence" in future investigations. Because we don't know what is being done, we can't defend ourselves against whatever suspicions are raised in our files, or confront whatever our accusers write in those files.
ReplyDeleteIn other words, Bush secretly decided to give himself the power to treat Americans the same way he treats "the enemy." The battle no longer becomes America against terrorists, but the Bush administration against everyone else, including Americans. He has already silently opened a door into a future no thinking American could possibly want, and it's the job of Congress to slam it shut.
Pmain, I don't get why conservatives have this idea that "balanced" means that every story should have equal representation. No media follows that notion, nor should they. Important stories should be covered more, positive or negative.
ReplyDeleteYes, there may have been more front page coverage of Abu Ghraib than of attacks on US soldiers. We all love our soldiers and care deeply about what happens to them. And still, Abu Ghraib is more important news because Americans were caught torturing prisoners, a practice with roots going all the way to Rumsfeld and the President. That cuts at the core of who Americans are supposed to be, it undermines our standing in the world, endangers our troops, and has bitterly inflamed our enemies and helped their recruiting effort. It is more important news, calling for us all to work to fix the problem.
Wishing that all papers would publish an even mix of news that is good and bad politically for Bush is silly. Bush has created an incredible series of messes. The only appropriate response by the media is to report that. The fact that Fox works so hard to toe the administration line simply shows how little they care about being objective.
About the NYT bias, you again confuse the news with the editorials (e.g. candidate endorsements). The editorial page is supposed to be biased. The WSJ is pretty good in their news (selection of stories aside) and loony in their editorial section.
We need to draw a sharp line between news organizations that keep a wall between news and editorial (like NYT, LAT, WSJ) and those that do not (like Fox). The former are reliable, the latter aren't.
Your view of why the NYT held the domestic wiretapping story shows that you start with the assumption that they are doing evil rather than reasonably concluding it. They seem to have been trying to balance national security concerns with the public's need to know, in a time when no one has been sure what level of security precautions we need to take.
Hope that's helpful, it's good to have a reasonable back and forth with a conservative.
The scariest thing about this post is it is a reminder that the slog will be a generation or so, not just this one constitutional breach. I was struck (and pleased to learn a bit of history) by the maneivering of Nixon to get out of his crimes. Bork. He was the toadie that Nixon found to cut investigations and he eventually came back looking for payback from the Reagan admin with a supreme court nomination. There will be a "surface tension" every day on public offices and local politics by former Bush cronies that feel that thier loyalty was honor and this gave them a job benefit, just like a 401k, that they are entitled to payback, cronyism and consessions.
ReplyDelete-borderdenizen
Windcowboy,
ReplyDeleteFirst & foremost, when ever I respond, it’s w/ my opinions only & that is about as far as you should take it. I know that there are millions that favor the right end of the political spectrum, who’d completely disagree w/ me on just about everything I believe or say. We, like many on left, hold a variety of opinions or different beliefs, so please try to keep that in mind. It is similar to asking a white person why white people feel this way or that, or do this or that, who the hell can answer such questions? Who’d want to?
Conservatives react to the MSM w/ distrust in general & that is a natural reaction that is completely ingrained into them. If a conservative had been caught stealing & destroying documents like Sandy Berger –this is just an example, I no have wish to rehash the argument over him & his actions – the left would be howling that there was a conspiracy & that they were covering something up – much like we did regarding him. But the level of news print generated about his actions compared to if it had been a Republican, would have tripled & we would still be talking about it now. Part of the problem, as it seems to me, is that the majority of those going into the print & TV medium are of a liberal persuasion & most polled feel it is their duty to not just report the news or facts, but view it as some sort of crusade – right wrongs, protect the little guy, etc. Naturally what they perceive to be right or wrong is going to be influenced by their perception of how things should be & this is somewhat defined by their political & social ideology & is reflected in their choice of words & what they consider to be a story. They naturally spend time on things they think are wrong & write about it. How much turmoil was raise after Harry Reid had a stroke & didn’t report for 3 days, compared to Cheney’s hunting accident? Granted Cheney is the VP & a shooting generates more press than sickness, but look at the overall volume or tone in the reporting of both. A better example would be Al Gore. He & his wife created the PMRC & started a campaign to have the music industry label their records as warnings for parents. Seems harmless enough, because that is what was reported. How were the owners of the small & independent labels treated – their homes were rifled through, they were held in jail & arrested - were the owners of Warner Bros., Sony Music, etc? It wasn’t Nashville they went after, it was the small & generally leftist independent labels based in LA or SF. Save the campaign against rap & used by the Quayle & Co. – that isn’t the direction I am going. The reason given for the crusade was they wanted to protect their children. Sounds great, but if you investigate it further, it turns out that Gore & his wife were born again Christians & most of the political support that they generated was from the religious community. If you don’t believe me get a copy of Jello Biafra’s record regarding his time in court & being arrested for including a painting in a Dead Kennedy’s record. Here is my point, how was his religious beliefs reported during his run for President? We all know about George W’s beliefs, but Gore believes along the same lines. The Republicans are smeared for their fear of gays, but it was Gore & Clinton that instituted the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy & signed into law the Defense of Marriage Act. We all knew about Cheney’s gay daughter – outed by the media - but the previous Administration’s actions were never brought up once or questioned once Gore was their guy. It is only now that conservatives have mediums of their own: talk radio (in which they dominate), Fox News (dominating cable news) & the Internet that we begin to have the other side reported in their terms, by people who share similar beliefs. There were several anonymous polls around several newsrooms asking about who they voted for in 2004 & I think that the number was in the high 80 percentiles towards Kerry, if not higher – not to mention that every major city’s papers endorsed Kerry. As someone who leans towards the left, how balanced would you consider the news if the positions were reversed? If the owners from Fox or conservatives owned the NYT, LAT, Boston Globe, Washington Post & at all of the other papers the majority of reporters were in favor of Bush? I’m guessing you’d seek an outlet that either favored your side or just listed the facts w/ no conjecture, much like conservatives have done.
I personally have nothing against the NYT, I know what to expect from them, but you are sadly mistaken if you consider it only the editorial pages. Abu Ghraib was horrible, but it is nothing to what civilians or our captured military are put through. Do you know that we tell our troops to not get captured because they will be tortured (I’m not talking about having pictures of them taken in women’s underwear) & killed, so they cannot surrender? Did you know that every female military member captured has had their arms & legs broken, physically tortured, starved, beatened & raped repeatedly by different men? Where is the 32 days of front page outrage? Hell, where is the reporting in general? Nope, but if 1 or 20 of the 400,000+ military members that have be cycled through Iraq, step out of line, it is on the front page for 32 days straight. After the story has been hashed & argued, they decided to publish new pictures from the same time period & start it again. Given that this incenses our enemies & it is the same story w/ no new information, where most of the people responsible have been or are in the process of being punished. There was nothing new to gain from printing those photos, but shame to be thrown at the administration. In WWII or Vietnam or any other war we have been in, our troops have violated the Geneva Conventions time & time again, was Kennedy, Johnson, Truman, Eisenhower, FDR ever proclaimed to be solely responsible for the actions of every soldier in the field – of course not. Was Kerry even quesitioned about the abuses he admitted to during his bid for President? So what is different now? The NYT doesn’t like W, they didn’t support him, they didn’t vote for him & they think he is wrong, so anything that can be is thrown at him in effort to harm his administration or supporters. Well, unfortunately we are in an area of the world where these stories don’t hurt him or staff so much, but hurt our troops, hurt American companies invested over there & place our citizens traveling, in danger.
You’ll counter w/ but it has to be reported in order to fix the problem. The problem is war & the ugliness that it brings out & no amount of orders or restrictions will stop some people from breaking the law or crossing lines. Its human nature & frankly some people are just evil or stupid. We should report it, talk about it, investigate it, but not publish it everyday for over a month, make it the lead story on TV every night, for a month. No good came out of that, but our enemies were strengthened by it & if you look at the MSM, their circulation & viewers are dropping because of it.
As far as my views regarding the NYT’s release of the data, I haven’t started w/ any assumptions regarding it at all. That is why you won’t hear me insist that the Bush Administration is guilty until proven so. I have said a million times that it should be investigated & questioned. If they are, I think they should be punished, but so far there hasn’t been a full investigation, any proof offered or a defense given. It is just real funny that the NYT sat on the story for over a year & it was only released once someone else got it. If it is as bad as most people here claim, why did they wait so long? They have already published several classified items before, so it wasn’t fear of being prosecuted. They have shown no respect for the administration itself, so it isn’t out of respect… You tell me why did they wait? If you are not willing to even question the messenger, unless it is from someone that agrees w/ you from the beginning, how can you claim any sort of objectivity in making your judgments but be so comfortable in questioning mine?
Hypatia sez: That's really not the tone that is usual around here ... When I hold a strong opinion I will be quite vigorous in my proclamation of it, and tenacious in my discussions with those who disagree ...
ReplyDeleteThat pole up your ass surely can't be good for your health.
I think "The Long Hard Slog" accurately describes any effort to read pmain's addlebrained ramblings.
ReplyDeletePmain: You've said a couple of times that "every female military member captured has had their arms & legs broken, physically tortured, starved, beatened & raped repeatedly by different men" or similar allegations. What is your source for these charges?
ReplyDeleteDid you know that every female military member captured has had their arms & legs broken, physically tortured, starved, beatened & raped repeatedly by different men?
ReplyDeleteI hear they drink the blood of pre-baptized Christian babies in Satanic masses, too. Plus, they control the media, like the NYT, right?
If birthrates keep steady, they will swallow us in mere decades! Demographically, their population must be placed under control.
Not to mention their control of the international banks, I mean hawala.
For some reason, the fact that Arabs are Semites comes to mind. I wonder why.
I have a great book, called the "Protocols of the Elders of Islam." You should check it out.
"The price of freedom- constant vigilance, constant willingness to fight- there is no other price!"
ReplyDeletePmain,
ReplyDeleteI see what you're saying. My thoughts, briefly, are:
- The people who control the news are the editors and the owners and upper management of the media outlets. So their leanings aren't very important. The owners and upper management are often conservative and certainly are not deeply connected to the experiences of the downtrodden. The lefties think, and have a reasonable case, that the consolidation of media in ever-fewer corporate hands and the ratings threat the MSM perceives from outlets like Fox is driving the MSM to the right and toward superficial, silly journalism.
- There's no point in anecdotal recitations of bias. We could each do counter-examples forever. I think it's striking that the show I and many others think is most focused on the issues that are actually important to the future health of America as a nation is Jon Stewart's comedy show. Most "news" from left and right is blather about things that will only be interesting for a day or two. To quote Robert Parry: "The gravest indictment of the American news media is that George W. Bush has gutted the U.S. Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Geneva Conventions and the United Nations Charter - yet this extraordinary story does not lead the nation’s newspapers and the evening news every day." By his legal maneuvers and ballooning the deficit, Bush is driving major change to our system of governance and to the future of our economy. That's what I think should be in the news, that's what America should be talking about 24/7.
- It's not surprising news when insurgents who support terrorism commit heinous acts against US soldiers occupying their country. It's surprising news when the U.S. takes over Sadaam's prision and then tortures people there. As an aside - I've never understood why some of our leaders use the "but look what they did" defense. There's no reason to use terrorist murderers as the benchmark against which we judge our behavior.
- There's no evidence that the NYT did anything strange or wrong in waiting as long as they did or releasing when they did. National security concerns balanced with the public's need to know explains it fine. That being the case, to see their actions as bad you have to start by assuming they must be bad.
Thanks for the back and forth. WC
Pmain,
ReplyDeleteArgh, I meant "The people who control the news are the editors and the owners and upper management of the media outlets. So the reporters' leanings aren't very important."
thanks. I needed this post. Much appreciated.
ReplyDeleteMany thanks for this post ... I was one of the morbidly depressed and you've cheered me up immensely. I was in my 20's when Watergate hit the fan but the passage of time seems to have compressed my memory of the whole thing. (It seems as though I was in a constant state of outrage, just as I am now, but I'd completely lost track of the fact that it took 2-1/2 years for everything to play out.) Of course, I'm apt to lapse back into depression about Bush's spying since I live in Ohio and our Senator DeWine, a member of the Judiciary Committee, was on Fox TV earlier this week speaking about what he calls the NSA surveillance program. “We don’t want to have any kind of debate about whether it’s constitutional or not constitutional.” Can you believe he said that?? As a matter of fact, this clown is actually introducing a proposal to exempt the NSA from any oversight, FISA or otherwise. Oh dear, I'm starting to feel all gloomy again. But wait a minute, Senator Clown is up for re-election this November and he's already behind in the polls. On the other hand, being way ahead or behind in the polls here in Ohio doesn't seem to mean much ... must be those Diebold voting machines they're jamming down our throats and all those "voting irregularities" that seem to plague us. Here's hoping all the Democrats in Ohio do what I'm going to do ... vote with a good old-fashioned paper absentee ballot. (And here's hoping Glenn keeps up the great work!)
ReplyDelete