Thursday, April 13, 2006

Does the debate over Iran matter?

Several weeks ago, I wrote a post about the death of shame in our pundit class, which observed that those who were most spectacularly and disastrously wrong in virtually all of their prognostications regarding Iraq not only refuse to accept any responsibility for their errors, but continue to parade around with the pretense of great wisdom and authority, seeking to dictate to us what our foreign policy choices ought to be, as though they are entitled to ongoing credibility.

Anonymous Liberal has a post up detailing that many of these pundits -- Bill Kristol, Victor Davis Hanson, Charles Krauthammer, Mark Steyn, etc. etc. -- are now in full-on war-monger mode -- again, this time with regard to the latest new Nazi Germany, Iran. The truly pathological passage which A.L. cites from Steyn -- where he urges "swift, massive, devastating force that decapitates the regime" (with no follow-up "touchy-feely nation-building") -- mocks itself. A.L. concludes that we need "some new hawkish pundits," because the current crop is so discredited and lame.

But does it really matter what any of us, pundits included, have to say about Iran? We are all running around engaged in a debate about how best to approach this situation, presumably laboring under the assumption that we are going to collectively decide this democratically, as a nation. But if the war-mongering radicals in the Bush administration convince The President that some sort of surgical strike, military attack or, decapitation assault against Iran is something we ought to do, will the Administration think that it needs any sort of Congressional authorization to engage in whatever war actions it desires? Very doubtful.

What prompted a focus on this issue is an e-mail I received from a reader, Wendell Bell, who asked this: "Will the Bush administration feel it necessary to go to Congress for a new AUMF to start the coming Iran war--or will the existing authorizations, as in so many other respects, be stretched to fit?"

There is simply no question that -- assorted Congressional authorizations to use military force to the side -- the administration believes that the President has the inherent power under Article II to order any military action which can be linked, however broadly or loosely, to a defense of the country against terrorism. To know this, one need only look to the September 25, 2001 Yoo Memorandum, still the official position of the entire executive branch. That memorandum is noted (at least here) most frequently for its concluding proclamation of generally unlimited presidential power, but the bulk of the memorandum is devoted to a discussion of the President's authority to order military force even in the absence of Congressional authorization. Here are some of its preliminary decrees:

Further, the President has the constitutional power not only to retaliate against any person, organization, or State suspected of involvement in terrorist attacks on the United States, but also against foreign States suspected of harboring or supporting such organizations. Finally, the President may deploy military force preemptively against terrorist organizations or the States that harbor or support them, whether or not they can be linked to the specific terrorist incidents of September 11. . . .

We conclude that the Constitution vests the President with the plenary authority, as Commander in Chief and the sole organ of the Nation in its foreign relations, to use military force abroad - especially in response to grave national emergencies created by sudden, unforeseen attacks on the people and territory of the United States. . . .

These powers give the President broad constitutional authority to use military force in response to threats to the national security and foreign policy of the United States.

The administration, of course, sees its powers as being tantamount to those exercised by Abraham Lincoln during the incomparable crisis of the civil war. Hence:

By their terms, these provisions vest full control of the military forces of the United States in the President. The power of the President is at its zenith under the Constitution when the President is directing military operations of the armed forces, because the power of Commander in Chief is assigned solely to the President. It has long been the view of this Office that the Commander-in-Chief Clause is a substantive grant of authority to the President and that the scope of the President's authority to commit the armed forces to combat is very broad. See, e.g., Memorandum for Honorable Charles W. Colson, Special Counsel to the President, from William H. Rehnquist, Assistant Attorney General, Office of Legal Counsel, Re: The President and the War Power: South Vietnam and the Cambodian Sanctuaries (May 22, 1970) (the "Rehnquist Memo").

The President's complete discretion in exercising the Commander-in-Chief power has also been recognized by the courts. In the Prize Cases, 67 U.S. (2 Black) 635, 670 (1862), for example, the Court explained that, whether the President "in fulfilling his duties as Commander in Chief" had met with a situation justifying treating the southern States as belligerents and instituting a blockade, was a question "to be decided by him" and which the Court could not question, but must leave to "the political department of the Government to which this power was entrusted."

And anyone who thinks that Congressional authorization is required just because the Constitution vests in Congress the authority to declare war is very confused:

If the Framers had wanted to require congressional consent before the initiation of military hostilities, they knew how to write such provisions. . . .

Given this context, it is clear that Congress's power to declare war does not constrain the President's independent and plenary constitutional authority over the use of military force. . . . .

The centralization of authority in the President alone is particularly crucial in matters of national defense, war, and foreign policy, where a unitary executive can evaluate threats, consider policy choices, and mobilize national resources with a speed and energy that is far superior to any other branch.

It goes on and on like that - touting "the centralization of authority in the President alone" in all matters relating to national security.

Just in case anyone is entertaining the idea that the Yoo Memorandum is a quaint and obsolete relic from a time past, the Department of Justice, in defending the President's authority to break our nation's eavesdropping laws, issued a 42-page single-spaced document on January 19, 2006 making clear that the Yoo Memorandum is still the prevailing view in the administration of the President's powers. In it, we learned that nothing can "interfere" with the President's decisions regarding national security:

Because the President has determined that the NSA activities are necessary to the defense of the United States from a subsequent terrorist attack in the armed conflict with al Qaeda, FISA would impermissibly interfere with the President’s most solemn constitutional obligation – to defend the United States against foreign attack.

Anything which "the President determine[s is] . . . necessary to the defense of the United States" -- including war on Iran -- is something that cannot be interfered with. Any residual doubts should be nicely dispelled by this:

* The DoJ Letter favorably cites an argument made by Attorney General Black during the Civil War that statutes restricting the President’s actions relating to war "could probably be read as simply providing ‘a recommendation’ that the President could decline to follow at his discretion." (p. 32; emphasis added);

* "[T]he President’s role as sole organ for the Nation in foreign affairs has long been recognized as carrying with it preeminent authority in the field of national security and foreign intelligence." (p. 30);

* The President is the "sole organ for the Nation in foreign affairs" (p. 1);

* "The President has independent authority to repel aggressive acts by third parties even without specific congressional authorization, and courts may not review the level of force selected"), quoting a concurring opinion from radical Executive Branch fanatic Judge Laurence Silberman) (p. 10; emphasis added);

* "[I]t is clear that some presidential authorities in this context are beyond Congress’s ability to regulate" (p. 30);

* "Indeed, ‘in virtue of his rank as head of the forces, [the President] has certain powers and duties with which Congress cannot interfere’") (quoting Attorney General Robert H. Jackson) (p. 10);

* "Among the President’s most basic constitutional duties is the duty to protect the Nation from armed attack" and the "Constitution gives him all necessary authority to fulfill that responsibility." (p. 9);

* the President’s war powers "includes all that is necessary and proper for carrying these powers into execution" (p. 7; citation omitted, emphasis added) -- even in conflicts where no war has been declared by Congress (p. 26).

So we can have all the lofty and vigorous debates we want over whether a military offensive against Iran is desirable, prudent, disastrous, crazy, etc. But ultimately, nothing we think - or our representatives in Congress think - really matters, because these decisions, under this administration, are "for the President alone to make." We could refuse to authorize this military offensive, or even enact legislation banning it, and none of that would matter in the slightest. It's worth remembering that in our country today, the President is the "sole organ" in all such matters, and he has full, limitless, and un-limitable authority to do whatever he wants.

If the administration really resolves internally - whether for political reasons or bloodlust or some crazed Steyn-like beliefs or any combination of those or other motives - to attack Iran, is there any doubt that they will do that no matter how much opposition there is? One thing is clear - they believe they have the power and authority to do that unilaterally, and that they need no further authorization of any kind beyond the President's will.

70 comments:

  1. Anonymous8:21 AM

    Maybe I'm being naive or optimistic, but I think the Bush Junta is seriously reeling from the tsunami of exposed lies and incompetence, as well as the resultant public backlash due to the same from the American electorate.

    I believe our best plan is to keep the pressure high on Congressional GOPsters who might be able to reign Bush in; after all, life will become far more difficult for Bush Co. than it's already been without a compliant, Republican-controlled Congress -- and such a Congress is a real possibility this November.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Anonymous8:23 AM

    For all the evidence you cited that Bush believes he can make war without approval from congress, you forgot to mention the best example of it when the administration made it very clear in the summer of 2002 that they didn't need permission from anyone. It was quite a point of contention for a while, with many Democrats insisting that they be involved. Only when it became clear to Bush that he had enough votes did he signal to congressional Republicans to allow it to go through. Even then, he didn't back off; he insisted that he wouldn't be bound by the vote. This same charade played out at the U.N.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Anonymous8:27 AM

    President Self-fulfilling Prophecy strikes again.

    Wish you weren't right.

    What are the options? Increased, teakettle shrillness? Massed marches? (The last ones weren't reported.) Constant pressure on and correction of the traditional media?

    ReplyDelete
  4. the best example of it when the administration made it very clear in the summer of 2002 that they didn't need permission from anyone.

    You're absolutely right. The only reason why there was a vote on Iraq was because the Congress promised ahead of time that they would approve the invasion. I vividly recall (unfortunately) watching a Senate Committee hearing in mid-2002 chaired by Joe Biden where he was practically begging the Administration to allow the Congress to vote on Iraq, promising that they would approve it and give the Administration anything they wanted, but pleading for the chance to at least pretend to have a rubber-stamping role. It was so pitiful it was difficult to watch.

    That was a different time, and Congress was petrified of the President in a way that they aren't now. But still, even if Congress protested, it wouldn't matter. I actually think that, on some level, the administration and their most crazed supporters (i.e., the still remaining ones) would crave the opportunity to launch this war without Congressional authorization, even with Congressional opposition, just to underline the point that they can.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Anonymous8:37 AM

    Here is video clip evidence of Rice's reaction when asked about this by Chafee in 2005. Chafee explicitly asked her if the AUMF allowed Bush to invade Iran without coming back to Congress.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Anonymous8:40 AM

    From tommy yum at 8:27AM:

    "What are the options?"

    Realistically? Contact your Representatives and Senators by phone and fax and email.

    Then go home, keep living your life, and quietly pray saner heads prevail.

    And if doesn't prevail? I've no clue.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Anonymous9:08 AM

    The Democrats won't put up a fight on their own and the Senate Republicans don't seem to provide much comfort(witness the Alito closure vote.) Will Rice, Rumsfeld, Snow, Hadley, Goss or Negroponte say "no" in public? Is our hope that Peter Pace or some other general will refuse an order? This is too weird to be true and yet it is very hard to see what will stop them. Perhaps the republic can hold on until November and a new congress will provide a way out.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Anonymous9:12 AM

    I don't seen how Yoo's theory of the President's unfettered authority in matters of national security can be given credence, except by willfully obtuse powermongers. Obviously, the Founders could have established a parliamentary system in the US, but they didn't. Instead of providing for a system in which the chief executive/legislative head can be removed at any time through a vote of no confidence, we have separation of powers. The only way of removing the chief executive is through the impeachment process, which requires conviction of high crimes and misdemeanors, a considerably more dire finding than no confidence. IMHO it makes no sense that we're stuck with Bush and his malfeasance until January 2009, or until the miracle of impeachment is pulled off. (A sidenote: I believe it is actually Cheney who has been driving our disastrous national security policies. It is only recently that Bush is realizing that he should have been paying more attention to essential details of the scenarios being spun out in the VP's office -- not his habit, of course.)

    ReplyDelete
  9. And now Iran is on the verge of securing nuclear weapons.

    Indeed, my suspicion is that the saber-rattling amounts to little more than the roar of a paper tiger.

    The first order of business is to ensure, to the extent possible, that Bush and the NeoCon Best and Brightest are put on a very short leash until they can be removed from power. The way to do this is to continue the erosion of their political support. It is still a democracy here, after all.


    I have to disagree with David on several points. First, Iran is not on the verge of securing nuclear weapons. Experts say they are at least five to ten years away from that.

    If you read the scary Bloomberg headline that Iran is “16 days from developing a nuclear” weapon you need to read further down. That’s supposes they have 50,000 centrifuges – they have a 164, which according to the article would take them more than 13 years to develop a nuclear weapon.

    Following that logic, I could claim that “in 16 days I’ll be richer than Bill Gates” but all the “ifs” in my scenario, render it implausible.

    Secondly, I take Bush seriously, this is not just saber-rattling – and at least part of the leaks we see from the military are from those who think he’s just nuts enough to do this. And he is.

    Third, “it’s still a democracy here” is not true until Bush leaves office, until he does he claims dictatorial powers – didn’t you just read Glenn’s post? That was the whole point. Bush can do whatever he wants, regardless of the public. Doesn’t sound like a democracy to me.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Glenn-
    I am a great admirer, and just wanted to let you know that this reader in Indiana looks forward to your concise and challenging words every day. It may take two cups of coffee before I am awake enough to deal with them, but they are the most honest and eye-opening moments of my day.
    Thank you so much-
    Paddy

    ReplyDelete
  11. Anonymous9:58 AM

    No debating will make a difference in the decision by Bush on Iraq. He has learned he has complete freedom to act because the Court and the Congress have failed as checks. Bush operates out of ego, not reason. He wants to be known as one of History's great warriors. The only thing that will save us is an appropriations bill passed over veto that prohibits any money being spent fighting Iran, backed up by the Supreme Court and a military that decides the mutiny and follow the law passed by Congress. Only this will stop the present insanity and set a proper precedent for the preservation of our republic. Otherwise, Bush will exercise his freedom of will.

    ReplyDelete
  12. ...“[I]t’s still a democracy here” is not true until Bush leaves office, until he does he claims dictatorial powers...

    And even when Bush leaves office, one wonders. The front runners from both parties--McCain and Clinton--have supported almost down the line. I don't remember any significant opposition from these two to the Presidential power that Greenwald describes.

    My guess, though, is that Frist will be the Republican candidate and he will ride the evangelical vote to victory.

    ReplyDelete
  13. anon: The only thing that will save us is an appropriations bill passed over veto that prohibits any money being spent fighting Iran, backed up by the Supreme Court and a military that decides the mutiny and follow the law passed by Congress.

    My thoughts exactly. But will the Congress find enough backbone to do this.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Anonymous10:29 AM

    Americans are divided over the prospect of U.S. military action against Iran if the government in Tehran continues to pursue nuclear technology — and a majority (52%)do not trust President Bush to make the "right decision" on that issue, a Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll has found.

    Asked whether they would support military action if Iran continued to produce material that could be used to develop nuclear weapons, 48% of the poll's respondents, or almost half, said yes; 40% said no.


    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-na-iranpoll13apr13,0,7195484.story?coll=la-home-headlines

    Guess this is a major blow to the advocates of "Intellegent Design." The fact that almost half of America will support the Chimperor also demonstrates that evolution is not a linear process.

    US says Iran could make nukes in days; Ex-UN nuke chief says it would be years.

    All we can do is hold the chimpster accountable for his lies and pray that more people will decide it is time to have an adult in charge.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Anonymous10:32 AM

    I pray that this talk of Iran misadventure by the gang that can't do-anything straight is a ploy to distract us while they continue doing what they do best - loot the treasury.

    Very good crowd -- the faux "advertise liberally" blogs don't like to talk about economics, though Glenn is very tolerant here.

    The fact is, War is the ULTIMATE CONSUMABLE MARKET and the profits to be made and wholesale theft from Federal Treasury vastly exceed avarice.

    Unfortunately, until the Dems are willing to take some stands on economic issues, not much is going to happen. The so-called leaders of the "blogosphere" will have nothing of it.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Anonymous10:38 AM

    My thoughts exactly. But will the Congress find enough backbone to do this.

    OF COURSE NOT!

    Like all wars, this one is fought over economic issues, though the public will be told it is about platitudes of "freedom."

    In reality, this is what will force the hand of the next generation of presidents -- the federal governments fiscal integrity is being DESTROYED and the military-industrial complex (oil industry is a subset) is making obscene amounts of money.

    The fact that chimpy is spending the Social Security trust fund for tax cuts and war means that the republican dream of eliminiting virtually all federal programs will become an eventuality.

    WAKE UP -- this is not actually about anything other than allowing the continual theft of the federal treasury and creating a fiscal situation that cannot be sustained.

    ReplyDelete
  17. David, I don’t disagree with you that the leader of Iran is nuts and the idea of him with nuclear weapons is scary. However, his support is not strong, and I think he’s the one who’s doing the saber-rattling without much of a saber to rattle. Bush’s actions and rhetoric just play into his hand, making it easier to drum up support at home.

    I don’t know what articles you have supporting your view that Iran is on the verge of a weapon, but the New York Times article today quotes a lot of experts that disagree with that viewpoint.

    And since my friend David loves to trash the Democratic Party, let me join him on that one on this issue. As Steve Soto put it:

    Yet here we are again, four years later, with the White House beating the drums even louder and earlier, and still there is no Democrat out there directly challenging the Bush war drive on Iran, and labeling the GOP as the permanent war party that is inept on national security.

    So why in hell is it so difficult for any national Democrat to take Bush on over Iran, and use the war drive as the opportunity to remind voters of a similar campaign four years ago? Due to Bush and Cheney’s criminal negligence and stubbornness, we have few good options to deal with Iran, except to talk with them directly. What political harm is there in reminding voters that Bush has botched the handling of Iran to the point that our only good choice is direct talks?


    In short, I don’t see anyone capable of stopping him. And I think David will find this sentiment from Arthur Silber quite interesting:

    What we desperately need is a hero -- either an individual or a group, or some combination of both. It is entirely possible that it would require only one individual of national prominence to state the issues clearly to the American public.

    I hope to comment more about Silber’s thought-provoking essay later, but I will be away for a few hours, so I may not get the time.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Anonymous11:08 AM

    OK. So there we have it. We are in a Military Dictatorship. It's military because the Dictator and his sargeants control both the military and the use of force against the citizens in this country.

    We won't make it intact through another three years. That becomes increasingly clear.

    Nor does the public have the options that the founders did when they revolted against England. We cannot revolt in this country ever again in that manner.

    So.....what? Two thirds of the American people do not think Bush should be impeached.

    It's checkmate for us?

    I read one interesting long post on a blog that outlines this entire problem and says the only solution would be for citizens to flood their elected representatives with faxes, emails and phone calls and make their voices heard.

    Is that realistic, or should we all go back to our personal lives and forget the whole thing and take a schedenfreudy pleasure, our only solace, that when the whole thing blows up which it no doubt will shortly, the criminals will be destroyed along with the rest of us?

    Where is Jack Bauer when you really need him? His task fighting against the bad guys and his own government has gotten riskier and risker and now he is confronted with the realization that his next task is to take down President Logan.

    As for the open borders in this country, I see now they do not pose any real threat because the threat they posed is past tense. The borders failed us the moment John Yoo stepped onto these shores and almost singlehandedly destroyed this country.

    A million Al Quedas could not have done the damage to this country that one John Yoo did with a few strokes of his pen.

    That clearly was a job that had to be outsourced because no true American lawyer who wasn't a traitor would have ever done that.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Anonymous11:10 AM

    Responding to david shaughnessy at 10:18AM:

    I don't think anyone here fundamentally disagrees that the current regime in Tehran is engaging in rehtorical sabre-rattling and doesn't appear all that sane or stable. Appearances aside however, the key question is can it actually produce a nuclear weapon?

    Therein lies the rub, and unlike conventional explosives, a nuclear weapon requires a considerable amount of engineering to produce and work. Its not simply a matter slamming two pieces of uranium ore together, or blowing up a shell of plutonium and voila, a mushroom cloud. First, the triggering ore has to be enriched to where it can produce an full-blown chain reaction, this enrichment process requiring a considerable amount of equipment and expertise to accomplish; the centrifuges Tehran is so proud of are a part of that process.

    By all authorative accounts, Iran has just 150-160 centrifuges working presently; which, provided they all continue to work properly, will ultimately produce (maybe) a full 1% of the enriched material (plutonium, I think) required for a decent nuclear reaction. At that rate, my five-year-old son will be collecting his Social Security benefits before they manage to home-produce a bomb.

    Can we be absolutely sure Iran won't produce a bomb sooner? Of course not. For all we know they're trying to purchase some of Russia's massive overstock as we speak.

    That said, it should next be asked if it is a given a nuclear-armed Iran will prove any more adventurous or belligerent than it already acts? The jury is still out there as well.

    So, should we be worried by recent developments? Of course.

    Does the situation, viewed objectively, warrant the US bombing Iran down to the bedrock?

    I leave it to the reader to form their own judgements (which I hope don't resort to overblown rehtoric or ideological strawmen in lieu of serious thought).

    ReplyDelete
  20. Glen, think how silly all this dithering shall appear after Bush excercises his war powers to dissolve the Senate, and appoint himself temporary War Chancellor, or whatever big lie appeals best to Rove's warped, Ghestapo-like approach to politics. The war with Iran is upon us, folks. One can only wonder at the extent to which the administration will continue to use war to push for unprecedented political advantage and the further aggrandizement of extra-constitutional authority.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Incidentally, Bush may be virtually out of political capital, but his credit cards are all still in hand. He can charge into war, and worry about the consequences later.

    Every one of the sons of bitches who voted him back into office will soon have more blood on theeir hands.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Anonymous11:29 AM

    .
    Glen there's a revolt going on that may reach critical mass soon.

    I just watched Larry Wilkerson speaking at the Middle East Inst. yesterday on C-SPAN. Remember when he first spoke out against these crooks ?
    This was one hell of a speech and Q&A. One thing that stuck with me,{it falls in with my belief that we are seeing a "Slow Revolt" against these crooks} Wilkerson said," You ain't seen nothin' yet, in terms of leaks coming. They're all going to say your guilty Mr. Vice-president." I'm pretty sure C-SPAN will rerun this thing in the coming days. You all have to see this thing it was amazing. He was naming names and kickin' ass.

    His speech and the march of the generals we've been seeing tells me that they've decided enough is enough.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Yankee: Granted all you say, I wonder how much of a threat that Iran would really pose, even with nukes. They still wouldn't use them. The leading mullah council, unlike Ahmedinajad, is not loony. They're realists. They know that all the US would have to do is press several buttons and blow the country off the map, literally.

    As I've written about before, Iran is looking for "respect." Like many countries in the mideast, they still suffer from lingering resentment at the ham-handed control and exploitation exercised by first Britian and then the US.

    With nuclear power, they believe that they now have a "voice" that can give them the same kind of status that Israel, say, enjoys with the US and the rest of the world.

    There is no reason, beyond simple prejudice and Islamophobia, that should rule out the US parlaying with Iran. The benefits of doing so, in a respectful and good faith manner, are great. Anything else is morally retrograde and ultimately destructive of both the region and of US interests.

    The only ones to benefit from an attack on Iran would be China and Russia.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Anonymous11:47 AM

    Our only hope Obi wan is that the military will decide not to go to a future Nuremburg trial and refuse the order. We are seeing Pentagon leaks and multiple retired generals speaking out in a way I haven't seen in my 51 years. Never thought I would wish for a military"coup' but I have to hope they would not throw nukes around just because a fool ordered it. John Yoo needs to be put in the stocks and left there for public ridicule. How one little squirrel can rewrite the constitution and then scurry off to a well paid position in Calif beats me.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Anonymous11:49 AM

    I'm with nelson--Cheney has been pushing this garbage for years:

    "It was my view at the time [that] we were absolutely committed to getting Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait one way or the other, no matter what we had to do. We had to have the Saudis as allies in that venture, but if no-one else had been with us if it had just been the United States and Saudi Arabia, without the United Nations, without the authorisation of the Congress, we were prepared to go ahead. I argued in public session before the Congress that we did not need Congressional authorisation. That in fact we had the Truman precedent from the Korean crisis of 1950 that the Senate and all ratified the United Nations charter. By this time the UN Security Council had authorised the use of force back in November saying that we could do it by January 15th if he wasn't out by then and that legally and from a constitutional stand point we had all the authority we needed.

    I was not enthusiastic about going to Congress to ask for an additional grant of authority. I was concerned that they might well vote NO and that would make life more difficult for us, or that even if they voted YES and then we had a disaster on our hands and it didn't work they'd still be against us. The President to his great credit felt very strongly that he wanted the Congress on board and he felt we could get them on board and he was correct. We went to work on them and had that vote and in fact prevailed. I think having had the Congress vote ultimately was a major plus."

    That's right, folks--not a must, not a requirement, just a 'major plus'.

    ReplyDelete
  26. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  27. What prompted a focus on this issue is an e-mail I received from a reader, Wendell Bell, who asked this: "Will the Bush administration feel it necessary to go to Congress for a new AUMF to start the coming Iran war--or will the existing authorizations, as in so many other respects, be stretched to fit?"

    The AUMF wasn't about Iraq, and FWIW, I think the maladministration thinks that the AUMF is still in force.

    And as Glenn points out, if the AUMF is the majick talisman that the maladministration shysters and their supporters claim it to be, it could hardly constrain Dubya operationally in his PWOT if he decides that he should be nuking Iran....

    [John Yoo]: "If the Framers had wanted to require congressional consent before the initiation of military hostilities, they knew how to write such provisions. . . ."

    That Yoo. He's such a comedian. He should send in his resume to Jon Stewart; they need some really good satire....

    More Yooish stuff: The President is "the sole organ for the Nation..."

    If you consider a horse's a$$ the only relevant "organ", I suppose.

    And more: "The President has independent authority to repel aggressive acts by third parties even without specific congressional authorization, and courts may not review the level of force selected"

    Compare and contrast:

    U.S. Constitution: Article I, Section 8 (Congress):

    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

    And then apply what Yoo said above....

    Rightly or wrongly, the Founders thought that even in the case of domestic insurrection, the deliberative body had enough time to act.

    [Glenn]: One thing is clear - they believe they have the power and authority to do that unilaterally, and that they need no further authorization of any kind beyond the President's will.

    This is what makes Dubya's lame duck status and his already abysmal polling numbers WRT foreign policy so freakin' scary: With no legislative check and no judiciary check, there isn't even a political check on what he will do. And aside from the legality of whatever he tries (which legal experts can debate in cloistered ivy halls for decades until the last Bush sycophant expires from terminal incoherence), we have to worry about his incompetence as well....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  28. The Yoo arguments were reiterated in the Censure Hearing by Professor What's-his-name. Side Note: I was at the censure hearing and Glenn's name and arguments were brought forward by Sen. Feingold! I believe that much of this stuff is kind of a new brand of "constitution in exile" argument that really holds no water. What network is willing to take a poll asking whether the people believe that "the president shall be the sole arm of foreign policy and involvement"?

    Anyway, it is clear that the hubris of the punditocracy knows no bounds, much like Mssrs. Rumsfeld and Cheney. The timidity of much of the political class will not allow them to be strong in the face of the vast hurricane of bullshit that is blowing out of the White House. It will be up to the people to stop the next war.
    Read up on the "Bonus March".

    ReplyDelete
  29. arne: [W]e have to worry about his incompetence as well.

    I think there's more it than even this. Capitol Hill Blue has reported on Bush's current drinking and drug use. According to sources, Bush is prone to wild emotional swings, as well as major rage.

    ReplyDelete
  30. OBTW, the media's carrying Dubya's water. Heard on CNN this morning that the "trouble" in Iran started when the Ayatollah took over (and the hostages were seized).

    Complete utter historical garbage. Iran had been a 'problem' for first the British, and then the U.S. got involved in 1953. For a good book on this (and on the history of the Persian gulf states and the people there), read Stephen Kinzer's "All The Shah's Men".

    The fall of the Shah shoulod have been no surprise to anyone, not the rise of the ayatollahs. To really understand the problems there (and what to do about them, if anything can be done at this late stage), you need to know the long-term history. I don't think anyone in the MSM wants to look at this, and I think that those in the maladministration that might be aware of it are either keeping their mouths shut or ignoring it as counter to their ideological ends.

    Another good book to read is James Bamford's "A Pretext For War". In it you'll see that Iraq wasn't about Iraq ... and that Iran is just the next step.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  31. Anonymous12:34 PM

    From the cynic librarian at 11:33AM:

    "Yankee: Granted all you say, I wonder how much of a threat that Iran would really pose, even with nukes. They still wouldn't use them."

    Again, I've been saying the same thing for some time now. I believe it to be saner and more productive to deal with Tehran with respect, but not to be shy about showing our strengths either.

    What we presently see, both on this thread and from the Administration, is a bunch of knee-jerk reactions towards Iran's rhetoric and panicky bolivating over the need to bomb its nuclear capacity away.

    Given the personalities involved, I really shouldn't be surprised.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Anonymous12:37 PM

    Considering the stance of retired generals, is the U.S. immuned from a military coup??

    ReplyDelete
  33. Anonymous12:38 PM

    As I recall, after FDR died, there was a consensus in the political community that allowing a president to serve more than two terms in office represented a threat to the well-being of our democracy. As a result, the constitution was amended to explicitly enforce what had been for the 150 years previous, a tradition that the president would not attempt to extend his rule beyond two terms.

    Is it too early to consider what we might do after Bush leaves office (if he leaves office) to prevent the recurrence, through a constitutional amendment or reformation, of what has become a clear pattern of abuse of the war power by this president?

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anonymous12:39 PM

    an attack on iran would also help bush cancel elections in november and secure his tyranny.
    sigh
    br3n

    ReplyDelete
  35. Glenn said "The administration... sees its powers as being tantamount to those exercised by Abraham Lincoln..."

    However, Bush has far surpassed the powers exercised by Lincoln, because the Constitution specifically provides that "Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it"; and furthermore, Lincoln wrote to Congress at the earliest reasonable opportunity asking it to retroactively authorize his actions - and thereby expressly acknowledged the supreme authority of Congress over the president's execution of his duties.

    Yoo's and the DOJ's reading of the Constitution is wilfully dishonest. No other possibility makes sense. Their position has been adopted because that's the legal advice Bush and Cheney were shopping for, in the same way their purported advice from their military commanders is only precisely the product of shopping for commanders willing to read them their fantasy script.

    The Constitution grants Congress the sole authority to "make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution... all... Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof", which manifestly includes the President. Conversely, it specifically obligates the President to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed" - those same Laws that Congress has the sole authority to "make all" of.

    Even further, in case that wasn't clear enough, the Constitution grants Congress the additional, exclusive power "To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces", above and beyond the exlusive power to make all laws governing the actions of the executive. "Rules for government and regulation" defines a lot more particular, intrusive, hands-on, micromanagement than "merely" having sole authority to "make all Laws" for carrying out the executive function.

    To take one example, the rules for the Patent & Trademark Office mandate what sizes of paper you may (8&1/2x11 or A4) or may not (anything else) use to submit anything to the Office. There is little if any limit to the closeness and intimacy of control implied by a sole authority to make rules and regulations, in addition to just laws, to administer an organization.

    Even with Congress authorized to make all rules for the military, the Founders had debated whether the military was too great a threat to democratic control of government, and debated adding to that clause, "provided that in time of peace the army shall not consist of more than thousand men." (Aug. 18, 1787, Constitutional Convention)

    In his Commentaries on the Constitution (1833), Joseph Story explained that this clause was added without objection, and was motivated specifically to avoid the type of executive control of the military that they had seen so abused by King George of England: "The whole power is far more safe in the hands of congress, than of the executive; since otherwise the most summary and severe punishments might be inflicted at the mere will of the executive."

    The President, the military, and the entire executive branch were intended by the Founders to be the humble handmaidens of Congress, the branch closest to the People. The gang in power now haven't exaggerated the Constitutional role of the president; they have declared open rebellion against it.

    (This got a lot bigger than I'd planned on, so I'm cross-posting.)

    ReplyDelete
  36. Anonymous12:44 PM

    Oh, and in the event "new" documentation arises showing an attack from Iran is imminent, have a look at the following:

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/04/13/document_dump/

    And commentators on the right-side of the dial wonder why no-one takes this Administration seriously anymore.

    ReplyDelete
  37. arne: ... a bunch of knee-jerk reactions towards Iran's rhetoric and panicky bolivating over the need to bomb its nuclear capacity away.

    I agree. Why, then, the push--if that's what there is--to make preparations for such an undertaking? One of the best reasons I have read so far is from Born at the Crest of the Empire (following AmericaBlog).

    ... And Americablog has a pretty good post on how the Republicans are using the Iran crisis to put them back on top on National Security. Remember, in December, Karl Rove made a speech where he said that the Republican midterm strategy would be to run on national security.

    It's really a pretty brilliant strategy. We react to the hype and they reap all the benefits. Although I'd be much more impressed if the strategy didn't involve the very real possibility of accidentally starting a war.


    This way of putting it makes it seem that Ubu-Bush et al. aren't serious about an attack. Unfortunately, I am beginning to think the man is deranged and psychologically unbalanced. See my previous comment on his habit today of mixing anti-depressants and booze.

    What can be done? The first thing, I think, is to inundate friends, letters to the editor, acquaintances with the truth about this so-called "crisis." Counter the disinformation and PsyOps program by magnitude.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Anonymous12:57 PM

    Colorado Bob said:

    Wilkerson said," You ain't seen nothin' yet, in terms of leaks coming.

    Colin Powell to the rescue? Remember how Powell successfully overruled Cheney who wanted to nuke Iraq in Gulf War I? And am I the only one to notice the timing of Powell publicly debunking the weapons lab lie right at the time when the Iran thing is starting to blow up?

    It seems like there is a counter-Cheney faction in the government and gov circles (including, or perhaps especially, the military) that is "armed and ready" to respond to every administration misstep in a manner quite reminiscent of the Cold War doctrine of "containment." We should try to recognize such gambits and amplify them when we see them.

    People like Sy Hersh and Jack Murtha appear to be the designated media people for these insider "covert" dissenters.

    Like the citizens of Athens, we should be alert for signals from the "Gods" in power who are on the side of sanity.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Anonymous12:59 PM

    I'm with zack. I disagree with David Shaugnessy today for a change.

    If you were Iran and the biggest Superpower in the world had been taken over by a bunch of Dr. Strangelove delusional 'love the bomb' madmen who had declared you were the biggest enemy to the world and had vowed to wipe a certain religion off the map, a religion which most of your people followed, wouldn't you feel you might want the bomb, or at least get closer to producing one?

    What about if the most militant members of government in your neighbor Israel would also like to see you blown to smithereens and they are allowed to have a nuclear bomb but you are not allowed to develop your nuclear capabilites?

    Iran is a signatory to the NPPT. They have stated that they are willing to have international inspectors closely monitor them and make sure they adhere to that treaty.

    That's where the focus should be. Who ever said that one nation has the right to tell another not to develop nuclear energy capabilities?

    Bush states that he has a hotline to God and no doubt thinks he IS God but why should the rest of the world buy into that insanity?

    In the end, I think it will all depend on whether Putin and whoever controls China have their hands out and how many $$$ our leaders are willing to pay those people (if they are willing to take it) to go along with the plan to attack Iran.

    If the leaders cannot be bribed and they do not give the green light to Bush to attack, he won't. I discount the possibility that they would approve such an attack thinking it was in the best interests of the Chinese people and the Russian people because it is clear to me it is not. So only a personal decision by the leaders based upon private stuff would appear to be what it would take for them to agree to a nation with a nuclear bomb nuking a nation that does not have one, which is against all established international law and all treaties between nations.

    Bush and crowd are very comfortable with others spilling others' blood, but they draw the line when it comes to their own annihiliation. So without a green light from Russia and China, I don't think we have to fear an attack on Iran.

    BTW, David Shaugnessy, of whom are you more afraid personally? Iran or the present Administration in this country?

    ReplyDelete
  40. To Mr. Shaugnessy's first comment here and all who maybe interested,

    I live in Taiwan at present and can't help but think of what may is part of the world because of the weaknesses resulting from this administration's incompetence: the increasing inability of the US to offer a genuine defence of this island if China were to attempt an invasion.
    Especially pre-2008 Olympics the Chinese government would be crazy to do it, but high officials in China have at least stated that the upcoming games there will not prevent from "safeguarding Chinese territorial sovereignty" - a clear code word for military action. (This post at The Dignified Rant http://thedignifiedrant.blogspot.com/2005/03/ready-set-go.html explains the possibility well.) Before or after, though, it would have immediate horrendous consequences for China, but then governments in extremis have been known to try to hold onto power by launching invasions in a base appeal to nationalist sentiment -Argentina's Galtieri-led invasion of the Falkland Is./Las Malvinas in '82 being perhaps the most recent example.
    Taiwan, or the ROC if anyone needs reminding, is a veritable ocean of freedom compared to the even-still authoritarian gulag that is the PRC on the mainland. The last time China seriously threatened Taiwan was during Taiwan's 1996 Presidential elections. They fired some missiles over the island in an effort to intimidate the voters in this first real democratic election, but quickly back-downed when Clinton sent in two aircraft carrier fleets. Since then, however, China has upped their military spending dramatically (though it is still dwarfed by the US's) to create a new hegemony in the region that necessarily involves them controling Taiwan. The US cannot allow this to occur not only for the importance of defending a democracy against the dominations of a preying authoritarian power (even one with a veto on the UN Security Council), but for its strategic implications. A Chinese military take-over would almost certainly cause Japan, S. Korea and the Philipines, who all have long-standing territorial disputes with China, to doubt the US's ability to defend them leading to a new arms race as they scrambled to join the nuclear club to defend themselves. Especially if China were to attack Taiwan in concert with a N. Korean attack on the South, the US military, now already under strain, would be quickly at the breaking point. The US's protection of this part of the world from Chinese (the government not the "race") domination is, in my mind, an undoubted good, but one that seemingly requires continued military domination. This administration's fiscal recklessness - leaving the health of the economy so dependent on the continued purchase by the Chinese goverment of US Treasury bonds, as the Chinese government shows itself evermore ready to wage war economically - makes one even less confident of the US's continued strength in the region.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Anonymous1:49 PM

    Please take this poll on the chimperor's impeachment.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10562904#survey

    I know this is not "scientific" but it is telling, currently 86% are ready to say YES!

    Chimpy does not have the support that the lying liars in the MSM proclaim. But remember, they "catapulted the propaganda" about WMD in Iraq too.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Anonymous2:03 PM

    I think we need to be careful with this argument. I'm very much in support of all the hard work Glenn has done with regards to the FISA/eavesdropping issue. While I think the admin's arguments on that have been legally in error, I think most constitutional experts, including liberals have to admit that the decision to use military force is still an open question.

    U of C law school's David Currie , whom I would consider an expert, states what I think is the prevailing view that there is a conflict between Congress' power to declare war and the Executive's war powers. If there weren't we might not have had Korea and Vietnam, as well as Bosnia and Somalia.

    I think we're mixing issues here a little (Eavesdropping on people in the US versus use of military force in foreign lands) I think the issue of which branch's power trumps the other is still very much an open question

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous2:14 PM

    who is more dangerous, Bush or Iran?

    please, the U.S. (and even Israel) have enough nukes to TOTALLY destroy Iran.

    After the past 5.5 years it is quite clear that the greatest threat to our Republic is Bush-Nero.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Anonymous2:23 PM

    ...a ploy to distract us while they continue doing what they do best - loot the treasury.

    Spot on, thor, but you couldn't tell by reading the superblogs and the faux "advertise liberally" crowd.

    The scale of this theft would be unimaginable and could not happen if those that proclaim to represent the left actually talked about economic issues.

    2 attitudes have enabled the chimperor:

    1. American's will not talk about stolen elections.

    2. American's will not discuss economic issues.

    Free, open, verifiable elections should not be a controversial issue.

    Being "liberal" used to mean that people believed the government played a role in making sure that Americans could raise families at with a minimally respectful lifestyle.

    Sure, the war is all about profits for the military-industrial complex and the super-rich, but it is really a WAR ON CHILDREN AND FAMILIES AT HOME.

    And the faux "advertise liberally" crowd does not help. In fact, they legitimize taking economic issues "off the table."

    ReplyDelete
  45. Re: Debate over Iran's potential to have a thermonuclear device, and how soon.

    We would have a much better assessment of this situation if Valerie Plame and her colleagues were still on the case.

    ReplyDelete
  46. U of C law school's David Currie , whom I would consider an expert, states what I think is the prevailing view that there is a conflict between Congress' power to declare war and the Executive's war powers. If there weren't we might not have had Korea and Vietnam, as well as Bosnia and Somalia.

    There is "conflict" about many things. That doesn't make the conflict reasonable. While there may be a sliding scale between the initiation of a war (which the Constitutional unquestionably reserves to the Congress) and some military manuevers in reaction to an emergency event (which the President likely has the authority to engage in without a Congressional declaration of war), I don't see how anyone can question that a pre-meditated, offensive, pre-emptive attack on a sovereign country like Iran in order to secure long-term security objectives is as close to the "war" end of the spectrum as you can get. If that doesn't require a Congressional declaration to engage in, then we might as well go ahead and burn Article I of the Constitution - you know, the part that was supposed to ensure generally that the power resided with the people and specifically that as a democracy, we didn't go to war unless the people of our country wanted to.

    Why do you think that there is a clause in the Constitution providing that Congress declares war? Is that there just for fun, for decoration - yeah, Congress CAN declare war if they want, but they don't have to in order for us to have a war. Does that make any sense to anyone?

    ReplyDelete
  47. Anonymous3:44 PM

    Does the administration claim that their power supercedes all of the following powers of Congress as enumerated in Article 1?

    The Congress shall have the power:

    To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

    To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

    To provide and maintain a navy;
    To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;


    Can (should) Congress get in front of this issue and threaten not to fund any unilateral war?

    ReplyDelete
  48. Anonymous4:01 PM

    Going to war and declaring it are two different things.

    Article 1, Section 8.
    To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

    ReplyDelete
  49. Going to war and declaring it are two different things.

    Is this satire, because that is the funniest thing ever, really. What would be the point of declaring war if it had nothing to do with "going to war"? If the President can "go to war" whehther Congress "declares" war or not, then the declaration of war is the most meaningless act possible. Why would the founders waste the time and space assigning such a meaningless gesture to Congress?

    It's like saying: "I can come home any time I want to at night. You have the power to assign a curfew. But I have the power to come home whenever I want." Do you really think the founders did such a ludicrious, irrational thing in the Constitution?'

    ReplyDelete
  50. Iran is turning into a very dangerous situation.

    Because of our divisions and Euro refusal to use force, Iran is openly developing nuclear weapons and daring us to do anything.

    Iran is gambling that the US is overextended and too divided to act and the Euros are paper tigers.

    Mr. Bush may be faced with the situation of actually acting unilaterally for the first time without an AUMF to launch an air campaign to take out Iran's nuclear sites and the air and naval units threatening the Gulf oil lanes....

    Or accepting a nuclear arms in the hands of a Islamic fascist regime which actively supports terror, is led by one of the terrorists who kidnapped our diplomats, and brags about wiping other nations off the map.

    I was hoping that Iran would back down under diplomatic pressure, but that appears only to have emboldened the fascists.

    THIS is why the politicians need to remain united during wartime. To do otherwise encourages the enemy and LEADS to war.

    Iran is banking on our divisions to allow them to get nukes and they are forcing the issue. In fact, given Mr. Bush's past history, the Iranian gamble is making war much more likely.

    If the UN has not acted once the 2006 elections are over and if the Iranians are still going full bore with uranium enrichment, all bets are off concerning military action.

    Once the Iranians get the 50,000 centrifuges they are brazenly telling the world is their goal, they can enrich enough uranium for a nuke in 16 days.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous5:25 PM

    That is a rhetorical question I presume. The debate is being controlled, manipulated, julienned, and dispersed like recombinant DNA in an unwilling host. As citizens we have been trying to deal with a paradigm shift of an epistemological and ontological nature since 9/11; our presumed casus belli.

    I wrote about this assault on and challenge to our perception of reality (in varying contexts) here and here.

    The intense shaking up of our glassball world with threats of a "tactical nuclear strike" ( a.k.a. nuclear winter) against Iran is just another way that those in power are controlling the information and shaping both the perceived and the catastrophic reality.

    "This is what violence does...This is what violence is. It is not enough that death reeks and stinks in the world, but now it takes on inimical human forms, prompting the self-defending survivors to strike and to hate, rightly or wrongly."
    - William T. Vollmann, from Rising Up and Rising Down

    ReplyDelete
  52. Michael Birk:

    This statement is a bit confusing, since there was of course a 2002 AUMF Against Iraq.

    But the "AUMF" being cited by Yoo in claiming the right to wiretap without warrant and hold "enemy combatants" was the 2001 AUMF. If the maladministration is going to use an AUMF as authorisation for a strike on Iran, it would be the 2001 AUMF that would be used (through its wide compass and indefinite terms) to authorise it (all that's needed is the "state of war", and an AUMF naming Iraq specifically is going farther than they need).

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous5:48 PM

    Bart said:

    Etiam congue ante vitae enim. Nunc nibh nibh, vestibulum ac, laoreet sed, pulvinar eget, tellus. Morbi eleifend. Vestibulum id tellus quis ante elementum fringilla. Curabitur diam. Integer porttitor, nulla eu scelerisque ullamcorper, enim nulla posuere est, at varius augue tellus fermentum orci. Pellentesque facilisis aliquet quam. Vestibulum molestie sem quis libero. Vestibulum hendrerit, neque vel semper iaculis, nulla justo vulputate massa, eget viverra enim ipsum sit amet metus. Etiam eros justo, malesuada vitae, volutpat eget, fringilla id, augue.

    Donec a elit nec nisi pretium ultricies. Phasellus fringilla justo quis purus. Suspendisse vestibulum interdum massa. In vel est. Pellentesque vitae ligula. Mauris vehicula vulputate odio. Vivamus et felis sed justo feugiat placerat. Nam a nunc sit amet massa consequat facilisis. Proin vitae ligula nec mi accumsan consectetuer. Morbi facilisis sodales sapien. Curabitur sollicitudin convallis lorem. Integer elementum. Suspendisse consequat. Vivamus mauris quam, elementum ac, posuere id, ornare et, lectus. Aliquam erat volutpat. Cras pulvinar diam ut justo. Etiam commodo adipiscing nulla. Nulla vestibulum, erat sed pulvinar venenatis, sapien lectus porta tellus, mattis condimentum sem urna sit amet turpis.

    Integer feugiat porta pede. Donec sed augue. Nam commodo. Suspendisse potenti. Aliquam eget orci. Quisque placerat vehicula felis. Donec consectetuer, nibh a auctor imperdiet, mi nibh tempus nulla, ac euismod est arcu vitae tortor. Duis tristique purus a felis. Cras quam arcu, malesuada a, posuere vitae, fringilla non, dui. Praesent arcu pede, ornare ac, porttitor eu, tristique at, erat. Fusce eros erat, semper at, tincidunt vel, interdum adipiscing, neque. Fusce risus magna, pulvinar vel, rhoncus id, laoreet at, nunc. Donec iaculis tempus lectus. Nam tempus.


    meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow

    meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow
    meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow

    meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous7:34 PM

    From Glenn Greenwald at 4:13PM:

    "Is this satire, because that is the funniest thing ever, really. What would be the point of declaring war if it had nothing to do with "going to war"?"

    I actually think anonymous is onto something here, albeit poorly phrased as it is.

    There's no question here that the President, per Article II, is the Commander-in-Chief and as such can effectively order our troops into possible zones of conflict or potential conflict, where it is assumed they will take what steps are necessary to defend themselves.

    Does this constitute them "going into war"? Perhaps, though a better interpretation would be "sending them into harm's way".

    Does this then automatically require Congress declaring war against another government? This is naturally subject to debate, though I believe history has demonstrated Presidents have sent troops into harm's way *without* Congress expressly declaring war; witness our many 'interventions' into the Carribbean and Latin America, or even against the Barbary Nations of North Africa during the late 1700s.

    Yes, Congress can and does declare war, but this no more is a demonstrable prerequisite for US troops being deployed than the fact they may come under fire automatically making that deployment a full-blown 'war' (regardless of what our resident contrarians may claim).

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous7:53 PM

    From Bart at 5:01PM:

    "Because of our divisions and Euro refusal to use force, Iran is openly developing nuclear weapons and daring us to do anything."

    Gee, and here I thought they've been doing this for some time now.

    "Iran is gambling that the US is overextended and too divided to act and the Euros are paper tigers."

    Or Iran is pursuing its own national interests, seeking to improve its regional and international stature, and engaging in perfectly legitimate scientific research that *may*, *someday* lead them to producing a nuclear device.

    But then, that presumes Iran is populated by human beings, doesn't it. Oh, wait...

    "Or accepting a nuclear arms in the hands of a Islamic fascist regime which actively supports terror, is led by one of the terrorists who kidnapped our diplomats, and brags about wiping other nations off the map."

    Gee, isn't that the same kind of thinking that led President Bush to order the invasion of Iraq? Just look what that's gotten us so far.

    "If the UN has not acted once the 2006 elections are over and if the Iranians are still going full bore with uranium enrichment, all bets are off concerning military action."

    And precisely what 'action' do you propose the UN take, hmm?

    "Once the Iranians get the 50,000 centrifuges they are brazenly telling the world is their goal, they can enrich enough uranium for a nuke in 16 days."

    I see you read the wire reports from Bloomberg as well as the conventional tabloids.

    Okay, given its taken something close to 10 years just to get the 150-160 centrifuges they've now got working up and running, I'd say we're all definitely in danger...of seeing the Social Security Trust Fund running dry before Iran has a home-made bomb.

    Lets say for sake of argument they can get the remaining 49,850 centrifuges they need constructed, maintained and running nonstop - *without* destroying their economy in the process - within the next five years. They need to be running for at least a year to enrich sufficient material (be it plutonium or uranium) to achieve a decent-sized nuclear reaction. Then they need to construct the device itself, which could take anywhere from another six-months to a year depending on the size, design, and triggering mechanism involved. That's provided they're doing all this from scratch; using components from other devices could cut this down quite a bit.

    Regardless, no evidence has yet surfaced that Iran is *anywhere* near ready to build, test and mass produce a nuclear weapon.

    And even then, history has long shown nuclear-armed states tend to show far greater restraint and caution in their interactions with others than their more conventionally-armed counterparts. Who is to say the same won't be true of Iran in five year's time?

    ReplyDelete
  56. Does this constitute them "going into war"? Perhaps, though a better interpretation would be "sending them into harm's way".

    I acknowledged and addressed that point in an earlier comment:

    While there may be a sliding scale between the initiation of a war (which the Constitutional unquestionably reserves to the Congress) and some military manuevers in reaction to an emergency event (which the President likely has the authority to engage in without a Congressional declaration of war), I don't see how anyone can question that a pre-meditated, offensive, pre-emptive attack on a sovereign country like Iran in order to secure long-term security objectives is as close to the "war" end of the spectrum as you can get.

    EVERYTHING is "subject to debate." It's what lawyers do for a living - they find a way to make clear things "subject to debate." Just because an argument has some lawyers and others on each side advocating it doesn't mean the issue is subject to reasonable debate.

    I'll ask you - what IS the point of the Congressional war declaration in the Constitution? What is its purpose?

    ReplyDelete
  57. Anonymous8:14 PM

    From Glenn Greenwald at 7:56PM:

    "I acknowledged and addressed that point in an earlier comment:"

    Which I missed entirely, and sincerely apologize for that.

    "I'll ask you - what IS the point of the Congressional war declaration in the Constitution? What is its purpose?"

    Precisely that: to formally declare the United States is in a state of armed conflict with another country.

    Except now, today, we have a President who has seen fit to send our troops into another sovereign country (inadequately armed and numbered, at that) without such a declaration. To the Congresses shame, it had exercised neither its legal or moral authority in this matter, taking the easy road of an 'authorization' of dubious legal force and purpose; and our nation continues to pay the price for its weakness and, yes, its cowardice.

    My comment wasn't meant to suggest the invasion of Iraq was in any way legal or morally justified. I merely wished to point out that, as a matter of historical record, President can and do send our troops into hazard without Congress first declaring war.

    Not every instance of combat, however large or small, is a 'war'. THAT was my point.

    I mean no disrespect to you or your point of view. My apologies if I gave offense somehow.

    ReplyDelete
  58. This is the question that should be asked daily of our president and his spokespeople.

    “Does the president need any further authority besides the AUMF to militarily engage Iran?”

    Is there a prominent journalist in the ranks that will ask this question until it’s answered fully?

    ReplyDelete
  59. I mean no disrespect to you or your point of view. My apologies if I gave offense somehow.

    Zero offense taken. I've just been thinking about this issue - war declarations versus emergency military deployments - and think there is some gray area, but an attack on Iran is nowhere near it.

    ReplyDelete
  60. I mean no disrespect to you or your point of view. My apologies if I gave offense somehow.

    Zero offense taken. I've just been thinking about this issue - war declrations versus emergency military deployments - and while there is some gray area, an attack on Iran isn't near it.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Michael Birk:

    I think the President would instead rely on "the plenary authority, as Commander in Chief ... to use military force abroad," as described in the Yoo Memorandum.

    But they bolster the "plenary authority" argument by adding the caveat "... but certainly in times of war ..." and throw in "... but when Congress has spoken favourably, his [Dubya's] powers as per Youngstown are at their greatest waxing [or least ebb, take your pick]". Yes, they'd use the 2001 AUMF, being the least specific as to what's authorised (and strangely enough, the least well considered), particularly because it authorises Dubya to go after terraists whereever and whenever he thinks he's found them, and for any reason or none at all other than he deems them terraists (unlike the 2002 AUMF).

    You just watch and see. My prediction is that Congress will say "show me the money ... and the weapons" this time around, and Dubya'll have to go it solo even within the U.S. But no doubt that Dubya will go it alone ... in the wake of some startling event, oh ... say, around September or October. And he'll say "pursuant to the authority vested in me as CinC and with the approval of Congress as expressed in the AUMF of 2001, I have hereby ordered that Iran's nuclear facilties be removed. Bombing starts in five minutes...." But he won't be joking.

    Sorry to say, there isn't any other option for him, even were he to even entertain such a possibility. "F*** Khamenei, we're taking him out...." When all you've got is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  62. Anonymous4:26 AM

    I come from Nixon's old congressional district and as God is my Fuhrer believe that:

    We are in a state of constitutional crisis. For Rumsfeld to lobby on intelligence reform and now have military acts off the books means that the "linchpin" of the constitution, the taxing and spending powers of
    Congress, of raising standing armies, has now been violated. My Congressman David Dreier now has no way to effect neither my Liberty nor my Republic.

    Our constitution was specifically designed to avoid this combination of the President's office with the Defense Department; that the King shall not have his own standing army to send willy-nilly to wherever he
    thinks he has the pleasure too. That is why I can never believe the neo-cons or Alitos et al., claims to absolute presidential power as Commander-and-Chief even during war. The claim of inherent power of the president has already been settled under Nixon's attempt during the so-called Vietnam War. As Nixon’s assistant attorney general Rehnquist made the argument of inherent power to wiretap the White Panther Party without a warrant – during a war. This power, which was claimed to be held, under the President’s Oath of Office, was rejected by the Supreme Court in a unanimous decision against suspending all or parts of the Constitution. Because this was Rehnquist’s argument as assistant attorney general he had to recuse himself from his very first decision after being appointed to the Supreme Court and rightly so. And guess what? America was still standing in the morning after this and Nixon's resignation avoiding his impeachment. This is in spite of a average of 6 bombings a day, 86 killed policemen, and a record 33,604 thousand injuries between the fall of 1969 and spring of 1970 by our own citizens protesting over the illegal invasion of Cambodia.

    Unfortunately, Rehnquist conveniently ignores this when he reviews his history of the power of the President during war. He brings up WWI and WWII in this review. But, for some reason, he completely skips how his “inherent” argument on presidential power was slapped down by the Supreme Court during the undeclared, illegal and immoral so-called Vietnam War. This is bald face intellectual dishonesty, if not outright historical revisionism, that completely belies the important decision on the necessity of War - not to mention the young lives thrown willy-nilly into harm's way. And so much for a responsible versus an irresponsible debates Mr. Bush. That is why I completely reject the neo-con's medieval thesis that constitutional government is too weak to survive in a difficult world and that we should defer to a sole sovereign power since 9/11. We have become weaker since taking on this post 9/11 repeat of Rehnquist's "in terrorem" position. (I would like to read his memo on the subject of presidential power and the invasion of Cambodia but alas that memo has disappeared, nowhere to be found on the Internet. The persuasive force of his ideas no longer count I can only suppose). I only fear that our new Supreme Court justices Roberts and Alito will take what was a tragedy we survived and turn a repeated claim of 18th century inherent power into a farce that destroys the sheet anchor of our Republic - our precious Constitution – along with the Bill of Rights.

    Censure is indeed warranted. Nixon would have approved!

    I have found the Rehnquist Memo at
    http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/warpowers925.htm
    Let us pick this apart?

    ReplyDelete
  63. Anonymous6:22 AM

    "I have found the Rehnquist Memo at
    http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/warpowers925.htm
    Let us pick this apart?"


    "Rehnquist Memo"? That's the Yoo Memorandum on Presidential War Powers.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous9:22 AM

    Congress does have the option of not funding it.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Anonymous12:31 PM

    Considering the stance of retired generals, is the U.S. immuned from a military coup??

    Check out this month's Harper's magazine.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Anonymous1:56 PM

    Bart: "Islamic fascist regime" and "they can enrich enough uranium for a nuke in 16 days"

    jeebus, what a bedwetter! Last year the intelligence agencies said it would take TEN years for Iran to obtain a nuclear bomb (assuming everying in the program worked perfectly).

    Bush-Nero LIED to manipulate this country into war with Iraq, and now more lies are being used to stampede this country into war with Iran.

    The ReThugs have their backs against the wall, Bush's crimes are so enormous that they simply cannot allow the ReThugs to lose control of Congress. Thus Bush will attack Iran before October.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Anonymous1:59 PM

    Lincoln was a dictator who fought an illegal war (congress never voted to authorize the "civil" war) to deny the seceeding states their right to leave the union because he "didn't want to be the President who saw the union fall apart on his watch."(he fought it for his political legacy).

    When Presidents like Lincoln are made into heroes for violating the constitution and destroying any notion of states rights, and it is all excused by a lie "Lincoln fought the civil war to free the slaves" (the emancipation proclamation did not free any slaves in Union held territory like New Orleans, & the Carolina coasts, it only "freed" slaves in territories the union had no authority over - the seceeding states) is it any wonder we get war mongering Presidents who think of their legacy and imposing their way on things for the sake of posterity, instead of what is actually best for the country, and constitutionaly mandated?

    ReplyDelete
  68. Anonymous3:59 PM

    From anonymous at 1:59PM:

    "Lincoln was a dictator who fought an illegal war"

    Certainly a different, though not entirely inaccurate take on the circumstances Lincoln was operating in.

    One should point out the following:

    1. Congress was not in session when the original crisis broke, and it took a prohibitive amount of time back then to get it to reconvene.

    2. It was a rebel battery that fired on Fort Sumpter, essentially declaring 'war' on the Federal government. This was, in effect, the suppression of an internal rebellion as the CSA was never formally recognized by any foreign government.

    3. Lincoln did, inarguably, take extraordinary actions in response to the crisis; he however was equally quick to request post-facto authorization from Congress when it reconvened.

    4. Lincoln's overriding goal, one that he stressed continuously, was the preservation of the United States as a whole; while having some sympathies with the absolutionists, his stated goal was to keep the country united and end the rebellion. The Emmancipation Proclamation was of limited applicability as a matter of political necessity.

    5. Historical analysis of the motives and means Lincoln employed may cast doubt on the 'purity' of his character or intentions, but the same is true of any historical figure.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Anonymous5:04 PM

    jeebus, what a bedwetter!

    Do you ever write a post that doesn't contain some scatological reference? Your infatuation with urine and feces is very strange indeed. Like gluttony, obsession with bodily elimination is not a secret vice.

    You should immediately seek help.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anonymous12:07 PM

    I thought so....

    NAS

    http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=16210

    ReplyDelete