If you are a true believer neocon who was one of the leading advocates of this war, and you are petrified that the blame for this disaster will justifiably be pinned to your head forever, what to do about these Generals? Easy - attack their motives and patriotism and insist that nobody should listen to them on matters such as military strategy, but instead should continue to follow the armchair general pundits like Victor Davis Hanson who led us into this debacle. Here's Hanson today on what is truly motivating those Generals:
Currently, there are many retired generals appearing in frenetic fashion on television. Sometimes they hype their recent books, or, as during the three-week war, offer sharp interviews about our supposed strategic and operational blunders in Iraq — imperial hubris, too few troops, wrong war, wrong place, and other assorted lapses.
Apart from the ethical questions involved in promoting a book or showcasing a media appearance during a time of war by offering an "inside" view unknown to others of the supposedly culpable administration of the military, what is striking is the empty nature of these controversies rehashed ad nauseam.
These Generals -- to whom Hanson refers contemptuously as "Pensioned Army and Marine generals" (those freeloading socialists) -- aren't speaking out because they love their country, are concerned for its well-being under this administration or because they believe anything they are saying. Nope - they're just trying to hawk books and make money, and are acting unethically while they do it. These Generals who are criticizing the administration are just dishonest hacks who ought to be ignored and shunned. As always, Hanson plays around with military glory from the past and wonders why nobody except him and a few others are as noble or brave as those men were:
Imagine that, as we crossed the Rhine, retired World War II officers were still harping, in March, 1945, about who was responsible months during Operation Cobra for the accidental B-17 bombing, killing, and wounding of hundreds of American soldiers and the death of Lt. Gen. Leslie McNair; or, in the midst of Matthew Ridgeway's Korean counteroffensives, we were still bickering over MacArthur's disastrous intelligence lapses about Chinese intervention that caused thousands of casualties. Did the opponents of daylight bombing over Europe in 1943 still damn the theories of old Billy Mitchell, or press on to find a way to hit Nazi Germany hard by late 1944?
These Generals are not only money-driven and unethical. They are downright treasonous -- "harping" on criticisms of our military strategy while we try to Win The War. Don't they know their patriotic duty, these Generals? And it's not just Generals who are selling out their country for book profits, as Hanson reminds us:
So we know the nature of these weary debates. Both sides offer reasonable arguments. Fine. But let us not fool ourselves any longer that each subsequent "exposé" and leak by some retired general, CIA agent, or State Department official — inevitably right around publication date — offers anything newer, smarter, or much more ethical in this dark era that began on September 11.
Criticisms of the Administration come "right around publication date." That's because nobody really finds genuine fault with the Administration. They're just all trying to sell books. Anyone who criticizes the Administration has bad motives, places their own interest over their country, and is undermining our war effort for selfish reasons. Including these "Generals." The great war hero Hanson sees right through them.
These Generals need to just shut up because people like them are the reason that we are losing:
What we need, then, are not more self-appointed ethicists, but far more humility and recognition that in this war nothing is easy. Choices have been made, and remain to be made, between the not very good and the very, very bad. Most importantly, so far, none of our mistakes has been unprecedented, fatal to our cause or impossible to correct.
So let us have far less self-serving second-guessing, and far more national confidence that we are winning — and that radical Islamists and their fascist supporters in the Middle East are soon going to lament the day that they ever began this war.
We need "far more humility" -- just like the Bush administration and its warmonger supporters like Hanson have been trying to tell us for years. And after that, all we need is "far more national confidence that we are winning" -- we just click our heels three times and recite over and over that things are great. And then they will be. Why can't these wishy-washy, defeatist Generals see that?
Attacking the motives -- not the arguments or judgments, but the motives -- of a bunch of retired Generals, all because they expressed criticism of the administration's war efforts, gives you a pretty good idea of how these Bush supporters are feeling. Desperate and scared. That must be the feeling inside the White House, too -- everyone is abandoning them, criticizing them, blaming them. They look and feel weak, impotent, and small. And they definitely are going to do something about that.
Hanson's lashing out at these Generals is just a minute though illustrative symptom of what is likely to come. When people like George Bush and Dick Cheney feel weak and impotent, they seek out conflict to show their toughness. Their supporters said as much as the reason they supported the Iraq War. That's where all of that "we-need-to-kick-some-Arab-ass" came from to justify the invasion. We felt weak and impotent after the 9/11 attacks and needed a good war to compensate. No need to speculate about that. Many of them, not realizing what it reveals about them, came right out and said it. Jonah Goldberg's explanation for why we should send other people to invade Iraq remains the Gold Standard for illuminating this tough-guy war-mongering stance:
Q: If you're a kid and you've had enough of the school bullies pants-ing you in the cafeteria, what's one of the smartest things you can do?
A: Punch one of them in the nose as hard as you can and then stand your ground.
When people like this feel weak and small, they need to lash out, to re-establish their warrior credentials. Attacking the motives of these Generals is so utterly irrational and vile, but they aren't operating from a rational platform. They are wounded and humiliated by their failures, and are desperate to find some way to compensate for that. I've read in many places that Bush will be hard-pressed to commit to an attack on Iran if his popularity remains so low and there is not broad popular support for the attack, but the opposite could quite easily be true as well. I think that's the more likely relationship between his popularity and the probability of an attack - the more unpopular he is, the more likely is an attack.
The weaker and more stigmatized Bush becomes, the greater could be the likelihood of some spiteful, bitter, strength-seeking military offensive. Few things seem more unstable and dangerous than an isolated, unpopular, bitter, failed, frustrated President, sitting in the White House recalling the glory days when war and military might caused him to feel so good and strong.
I guarantee you that if those generals were praising the war effort, Victor Davis Hanson would be broadcasting their comments far and wide.
ReplyDeleteI guarantee you that if those generals were praising the war effort, Victor Davis Hanson would be broadcasting their comments far and wide.
ReplyDeleteYeah - After he retired, Tommy Franks wrote a book and went around promoting it right about at the same time that he came out and endorsed George Bush's re-election. I recall one of the most wretching scenes ever - Sean Hannity drooling all over Gen. Franks while he said to him, in essence: "You and the President have a special bond. It's really like you and he were in a bunker together."
I don't recall VDH or any of these other Bush apologists attacking Gen. Franks' motives or suggesting he suddenly became a highly politicized Bush supporter in order to increase his visibility and sell books. All I recall was a bunch of hero worship and glorification over the General Who Defeated The Great And Vaunted Iraqi Army. And, needless to say, anyone who said a bad word about Tommy Franks was beneath contempt.
How odd that some Generals are treated with reverence and worship and others are treated like slimy con artists hawking some cheap goods at a carnival.
And, needless to say, anyone who said a bad word about Tommy Franks was beneath contempt.
ReplyDeleteVery good post, and it reflects my own fears. Iran is a deeply dangerous situation, but George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld are the last people in the world who should be dealing with it. I'm worried about what they will do, and why they will do it.
I have absolutely zero military acumen; Tommy Franks was persuasive to me. But even more persuasive is the emergence of many retired generals who feel compelled to criticize the incompetenece and arrogance of Rumsfeld. That phenomenon has to mean something.
A good post, but I kept waiting for some follow-through on whether the four generals that have called for Rumsfeld's resignation/firing so far actually have any books to promote. Although I have read their statements, I don't recall any book titles being mentioned, which certainly suggests that Hanson's criticism might be factually wrong as well as morally so. Anybody know the facts on this?
ReplyDelete>Q: If you're a kid and you've had enough of the school bullies pants-ing you in the cafeteria, what's one of the smartest things you can do?<
ReplyDeleteThe problem in a nutshell. We've allowed our nation to be taken over by a cabal of seventh graders.
Glenn Greenwald and you Commie sympathizing, traitorous bastard Generals,
ReplyDeleteSon, we live in a world that has evil doers, and that axis of evil has to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You, General Zinni? You, Glenn Greenwald? I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Iraqis, and you curse the Administration. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Innocent Iraqi's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you don't want me in Iraq, you need me in Iraq. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!
…You fuckin' people. You have no idea how to defend a nation. All you did was weaken a country today, War Critics. That's all you did. You put people's lives in danger. Sweet dreams...
Yours must sincerely and affectionately,
Colonel Victor “Jessup” Davis Hanson
"VD" Hansen: "... and that radical Islamists and their fascist supporters in the Middle East are soon going to lament the day that they ever began this war."
ReplyDeleteVD conveniently ignores the fact that Dubya started the Iraq war.
Cheers,
Colonel Victor “Jessup” Davis Hanson - just another right wing bedwetter.
ReplyDeleteColonel Victor “Jessup” Davis Hanson - just another right wing bedwetter.
ReplyDeleteAnd the longer this war drags on, the weaker and smaller the "fighting keyboarders" feel . . . knowing full well they could be there fighting if they really had the courage of their convictions.
ReplyDeletePathetic little weasels.
Bush is an abject failure and miserable loser and Cheney is a psychopath
ReplyDeleteDepends on which side of the checkbook you are on. The bush family, cheney, the military-industrial complex, and the oil industry (a subset of the war machine) are all doing FANTASTICALLY WELL!!!!
This isn't about incompetence!
Iran is a deeply dangerous situation...
ReplyDeleteIt will be an EXTREMELY PROFITABLE situation for some!
The misstatement of fact in these pundits' remarks is that only one general, I believe, is actually "hawking a book": Gen. Zinni. The others have not written books as far I remember.
ReplyDeleteWhat these generals are expressing is a growing sense of impotence in the face of processes outside their control. These processes are much more deeply systemic than their specific critiques of Rumsfeld would lead us to believe.
Some at this forum have spoken about a coup d'etat by the military. As I have argued before, that coup may have already occurred--but from the neocon camp.
I have not read the recent Harper's magazine article that takes up exactly this point. The title suggests that it is "the unthinkable," but as Jodi @ I Cite reports, the third section explores the fact that a coup has already occurred.
The article is comprised of a dialog between military academics and former military officers. According to Jodi (quoting from the article):
The question that arises is whether, in fact, we're not already experiencing what is in essence a creeping coup d'etat. But it's not people in uniform who are seizing power. It's militarized civilians, who conceive of the world as such a dangerous place that military power had to predominate, that constitutional constraints on the military need to be loosened. [my emphasis]
It is this reality, I believe that the generals coming out against Cheney/Rumsfeld are concerned about. They have couched their terms in military speak and particular criticisms, yet I think that behind their remarks is a growing anxiety that things are not right and are out of joint in the US Defense establishment.
It is their specific experience with the conditions on the gorund and in the air that make their criticisms credible. While we hear only snippets and disconnected stories about Iraq, contractor corruption, troop overkill, and the situation inside the Defense establishment, they know the corruption, venality, and motivations driving those they served.
I believe that these generals are facing the despair that consumed and led to suicide a West Point military ethics professor who volunteered for Iraq. After several months on duty, his fellow soldiers found his body with a gunshot to the head. Next to him was a four-page letter to his superiors that had the following words:
"I cannot support a msn [mission] that leads to corruption, human rights abuse and liars. I am sullied. I came to serve honorably and feel dishonored.
"Death before being dishonored any more."
I think these words speak volumes about the present crisis the republic faces. The generals who are now critiquing the present administration have their suspicions perhaps, are reluctant to come right out and say it, but I do think that the coup has happened and "it will not be televised."
I like your take on these things Glenn. As infuriating as it is to have to watch honorable, decent men being denounced as traitors, we must never forget the fear and desperation that lies at the heart of it. The Bush administration is in a corner, and running out of allies; soon there will be no one left to demonize.
ReplyDeleteGreg VA, don't kid yourself -- THE FIGHTING KEYBOARDERS are on both sides...
ReplyDeleteThose that want to discuss this in the context of "competence/incompetence" are all part of the problem too!
As if somehow, a more efficient, competent perpetual war would be a good thing...
The faux "advertise liberally" crowd will not take on the real issues either, at least not the superblogs.
Mindless, endless, meaningless keyboarding is all over the 'net. When we are ready to talk about where the money is going, how it is being used or stolen, and who is going to pay for this - then there will be a meaningful dialog.
Until then, the superblogs are just playing the horserace.
It is not in the best interest of the vast majority of American's to support this administration or the republicans, but the "L" word has been stolen and all of the key issues that were the foundation of the Democrats success in the last century have been neutralized.
Until we take that back, we are just keyboarding...
I know how to link, but please excuse me if I reprint this here in its entirety :)
ReplyDeleteorder from AmazonUnclaimed Territory
How Would A Patriot Act?
Defending American Values
From A President Run Amok
By Glenn Greenwald
Glenn Greenwald was not a political man. Not liberal, not conservative. Politicians were all the same and it didn't matter which party was in power. Extremists on both ends canceled each other out, and the United States would essentially remain forever centrist. Or so he thought.
Then came September 11, 2001. Greenwald's disinterest in politics was replaced by patriotism, and he supported the war in Afghanistan. He also gave President Bush the benefit of the doubt over his decision to invade Iraq. But, as he saw Americans and others being disappeared, jailed and tortured, without charges or legal representation, he began to worry. And when he learned his president had seized the power to spy on American citizens on American soil, without the oversight required by law, he could stand no more . At the heart of these actions, Greenwald saw unprecedented and extremist theories of presidential power, theories that flout the Constitution and make President Bush accountable to no one, and no law.
How Would a Patriot Act? is one man's story of being galvanized into action to defend America's founding principles, and a reasoned argument for what must be done. Greenwald's penetrating words should inspire a nation to defend the Constitution from a president who secretly bestowed upon himself the powers of a monarch. If we are to remain a constitutional republic, Greenwald writes, we cannot abide radical theories of executive power, which are transforming the very core of our national character, and moving us from democracy toward despotism. This is not hyperbole. This is the crisis all Americans—liberals and conservatives—now face.
In the spirit of the colonists who once mustered the strength to denounce a king, Greenwald invites us to consider: How would a patriot act today?
My personal advice for how patriots should act is to pre-order as many books as possible and tell your friends to do the same to maximize the chances that Amazon gives a big push to Glenn's book and makes it very visible.
What we all WANT is for more and more people to see the real issues and take some form of action before it's too late. Therefore the best thing we can do is to take whatever action we can (like shelling out a mere $12, $48, or $96 bucks and ordering some of Glenn's books to give it the best possible send-off) that will maximize the chances that the book comes to the attention of the widest number of Americans.
Logical, right?
You too, Bart!
Glenn writes Nope - they're just trying to hawk books and make money, and are acting unethically while they do it.
ReplyDeleteRemember how we saw this same slimy tactic used against John Dean when he testified at the censure motion hearings and mentioned his book and remember how one person on this blog already started using that same snark against Glenn?
These creeps will not only stoop lower than the laws of human anatomy would suggest is possible, but if they really believe that is the motive of these people who are acting courageously in dangerous times like these and stepping forth to speak out, the scoffers apparently have no real grasp of what patriotism is all about.
Do any of them remember Paul Revere? What was he in it for? More carrots for his horse?
I received this site in an email from a "debate the Iraq war" group, supporting Rep. Neil Abercrombie's (D-HI) House Resolution 543, which demands a full debate and vote on the war.
ReplyDeleteThe interesting thing about this petition is that it doesn't only send your signature in the petition, it also extracts any comments you input and sends them to every newspaper editor in your region.
I think such technology is useful. Many people still don't have access to the Web but do read their newspapers. Does anyone have the technical know-how to do something similar for Glenn's proposals here?
What I am thinking of is an easy way for those on this forum and elsewhere to generate mass mailings to newspaper editors in this way on issues brought up on this forum.
To propulgate at 1:33PM:
ReplyDeleteDoes Jack Nicholson know you're stealing his lines and butchering them?
If those are indeed your sentiments, please express them in ways other than stealing from an otherwise excellent movie and stage play.
If, however, you are lampooning the jingoistic nonsense of these so-called 'patriots', then well done!
Colonel Victor “Jessup” Davis Hanson - Humorous post!
ReplyDeleteFor those unaware, the whole post was a paraphrase from the movie "A Few Good Men", where Jack Nicholson's character, a Marine Colonel, says that his actions (which lead to the death of a soldier) are above reproach because it is he that is "on the wall" defending our freedoms.
Basically it is the same junk that this administration is pushing - "I am the one keeping our enemies at bay, so how dare you accuse me of anything! You should be happy just kissing my boots!".
yankeependragon,
ReplyDeleteI assure you; I had my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. I tried to make it obvious by including “Colonel Jessup” in the closing. Apparently my mockery of this Admin and its apologists didn’t fly.
It was 100% lampoon.
Judging someone elses motives based on what you do is stupid. Just because he would use comments likely to receive publicity to hawk a book doesn't mean that other would. I think this comment reveals more then he would like about what he would do if the situation were reversed.
ReplyDeleteHow can an electoral system invest so much power upon such people as Bush, Cheney, DeLay, Frist, etc., (yes, and Joe Lieberman)? I would rather see an administration and a legislature drawn up by pure random choice. At least you would not have the putrid climate of corruption guaranteed by the current 'money=freedom of speech' formula. I'll take my chances. Anybody would be better than the current crew. Well, anyone but V.D. Hanson, after reading his comment.
ReplyDeleteAppropriate initials, by the way.
I got it propulgate. That's the danger of using satire these days though. We live in an age so deliriously crazy, it's hard to tell parody from the real thing.
ReplyDeleteBest,
Strangefate
Metaphors are used to change the subject when you are losing the debate, and nobody moves more quickly to the WWII metaphor than the Bush Administration and its sycophants.
ReplyDeleteIf the US only had the moral high ground now that it enjoyed in WWII, things would be much different.
Yes, if this were WWII, every able-bodied male of voting age would be in the uniformed services, the domestic population would be rationing gasoline, rubber, butter, eggs, chocolate, meat (and many other things). Children would be collecting scrap metal
which their parents would donate to the war effort. Women would be welcomed in the factories to help build materiel (planes, ground vehicles, ammunition and the like) desperately needed on the front lines.
But those days are over, thank God, and nothing about the whimsical and egomaniacal invasion of Iraq remotely compares to what we went through in WWII.
Will somebody please tell the coterie of combat-dodging chickenhawks in the White House?
Maybe the tyrants are doing fantastically well now, but things are going to change for them in the days ahead.
ReplyDeleteThe first acts of any Tragedy are filled with page after page of the tyrants conquering and prospering. The final act is where you get to see their downfall and all the ripples which ensue from their crashes to Hell.
There will come a day when the children of all the worst offenders will be prisoners in their own little close knit sycophantic social circles.
If they try to step out in the "real world" however, they will be met with such scorn, derision and jeering that they will wish they had remained in their cocoons.
You may be able to loot Enron and wiggle your way out of that, but you cannot hi-jack the United States of America. It's too visible a crime with too many victims.
When the Hounds of Heaven start their chase they do not care how much money you have or how much power you once had. They are relentless in their pursuit.
From
ReplyDeleteThe Hound of Heaven
by
Francis Thompson (1859-1907)
"All things betray thee, who betrayest Me."
That is how I look at Justice. Betray it, and all things will be betray you in the end even though sometimes it takes a little while for the mills to grind fine enough to sift things out.
I am also reminded of another saying in which I have always believed:
Where there's no justice, there's no peace.
Cynic writes:
ReplyDeleteWhat I am thinking of is an easy way for those on this forum and elsewhere to generate mass mailings to newspaper editors in this way on issues brought up on this forum.
Cynic, what an absolutely spectacular idea! That is brilliant. I hope someone who has more skill with computer technology than I do will follow up on this. I can't think of a single thing that would be more productive than if such a program were to be developed.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteSo does this mean the people who questioned the generals who support & did support the Iraqi invasion are just as deplorable? Or do we only limit it to those that question those against the war?
Hypathia, David,
ReplyDeleteIran is a deeply dangerous situation
Why? How do you really know?
The Iranians are sabre-rattling, sure. But, to date, they are within the Nonproliferation treaty they signed. They haven't broken any international laws.
I think their leadership -- festooned with yokels, god-shrieking idiots and cynical old men -- is atrocious and wrongheaded. But to date, they pose very little in the way of an actual threat to anyone, let alone the United States.
'Yet, even after this debacle in Iraq, you're willing to get sucked in with the fear again? Why? Why do you trust the same people who had said that Hussein was a threat that needed immediate attention?
When American stop being so scared, we might stand a chance at addressing the Iranian problem with some foresight. Until then, get ready for more terror talk from idiots, dupes and liars.
Apparently my mockery of this Admin and its apologists didn’t fly.
ReplyDeleteYes it did. I thought that was very funny and very clever and oh so on the mark.
What we need, then, are not more self-appointed ethicists, but far more humility and recognition that in this war nothing is easy. Choices have been made, and remain to be made, between the not very good and the very, very bad. Most importantly, so far, none of our mistakes has been unprecedented, fatal to our cause or impossible to correct.
ReplyDeletePoint One: I think the generals know that all wars including this one are not easy.
Point Two: None of the mistakes have been fatal to our cause or impossible to correct? My skill, such as it is, with words fails me. Truly can't articulate how wrong, wrong, wrong this statement is. Maybe someone with more skill can rip that shit to shreds.
Point Three: If there were more ethicists, self-appointed or otherwise, maybe this endeavor would have never happend or at least not been quite the mess that it is.
So does this mean the people who questioned the generals who support & did support the Iraqi invasion are just as deplorable?
ReplyDeleteWho questioned the patriotism and motives of Generals who supported the war? In general, active military officers are required to refrain from commenting on civilian policy. Which retired military officers had their motives and patriotism impugned (rather than their judgment questioned) for supporting the war?
Or do we only limit it to those that question those against the war?
I think it's perfectly appropriate to question and disagree with everyone on every matter, including Generals on military matters. Nobody has a monopoly on wisdom, and just because some Generals say that Rumsfeld was wrong doesn't make it so.
I wasn't criticizing people like Hanson for disagreeing with the Generals. I criticized them for attacking their motives and impunging their patriotism - just like they do virtually everyone who criticizes this administration's terrorism and foreign policies. Do you really not see that distinction?
I agree Glenn thankfully we booted Jimmy Carter out of office a long time ago.
ReplyDeleteuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmm
The facts are that the events that "frustrated" jimmy carter is that the powerelite behind st. senile ronny committed acts of treason and negotiated with the iranian hostage takes to maintain the hostage crises.
these are the same forces that took an alcoholic/cokehead, idiot son of the criminal bush family and annointed him chimperor in chief -- the ultimate tool for the military-indusrrial complex.
propulgate:
ReplyDeleteApparently my mockery of this Admin and its apologists didn’t fly.
It's hard to satirize a preznit and a political party and adherents that do such a splendid job of it themseves. It's a mixed blessing: While the material comes hot and heavy, some days Jon Stewart's only possibly followup to the day's clips of the Doofus-In-Chief are to sit there mouth agape, rolling his eyes, or (more common nowadays) banging his head on the table.
So I can understand your disappointment, but you chose a difficult task....
FWIW, I got it right off the bat, and I think that others did as well.... :-)
Cheers,
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteAttacking the motives -- not the arguments or judgments, but the motives -- of a bunch of retired Generals, all because they expressed criticism of the administration's war efforts, gives you a pretty good idea of how these Bush supporters are feeling. Desperate and scared.
:::chuckle:::
Where to begin???
1) Dr. Hanson is a well published military historian of international repute. I find it amusing that Glenn takes Dr. Hanson to task for correctly identifying the new general authors as being retired and then ridicules Dr. Hanson as and arm chair general hack. People who live in glass houses...
2) Folks, read the entire linked article. If you do, you will find that Dr. Hanson spends 3/4 of the article directly rebutting the arguments of some of these generals, not just attacking their "motives."
3) Like these generals whom Dr. Hanson takes to task, Glenn declines to address these counter arguments. Dr. Hanson does a very good job making these arguments and I would only comment on two points. Againa, read the entire article.
4) To start, since the dawn of writing, retired generals have written books kibitizing about wars and claiming that, if only the powers that be had followed their strategies, the general author could have won the war in glorious fashion. This is more of the same.
5) Underlying much of today's batch of books is a serious debate in the services about whether computerized command and control in addition to smart munitions can enable the US to fight and win wars with fewer troops. This concept is supported whole heartedly by the USAF and Navy, while the soldier heavy services -Army and Marines - argue that boots on the ground are still necessary. Rummy has adopted the high tech / fewer troops approach to the eternal emnity of many Army and Marine generals.
They appear to be both right under different circumstances.
In a conventional war like the opening 3 weeks in Iraq, Rummy proved that you need very few troops to decisively destroy a conventional military. Rummy not only proved that you didn't need the half million called for by General Shinseki, the military actually accomplished this feat without the services of the 4th Mech Division after Turkey denied it access.
However, you need boots on the ground to hold the ground against an insurgency. The troops tasked for this purpose in Iraq were insufficient. That means that the US must either remobilize more troops or they need to refine the models used in Afghanistan and now Iraq by mobilizing a friendly local army.
This argument is too important to leave to political sniping because campaigns like Afghanistan and Iraq are not going to end there if we are at all serious about dealing with Islamic fascism.
What a stinking pile of Ugly American your compelled response was. Your humble request was a masquerade of hypocritical motive attacking of the Retired Generals. You ask for real strategic alternatives- how about actually listening to the Generals. That would be a change of pace for this Administration. Besides, it is glaringly evident that this Administration is not looking for any input, feedback and especially not strategic alternatives from anyone. They are dead set on a course of “stay the course.” Listening to suggested alternatives would be a sign and admission that they had not done everything perfectly. This Admin don’t play that.
ReplyDeleteI have heard plenty of plausible alternatives to the current track of failure- all the offers have been met with poo-pooing and claims of aiding the enemy (and other traitorous charges).
Again, I suggest actually listening to these Retirees.
You also suggest that calling for the resignation of Rummy is not gonna help us win. How do you know this? He has been a great example of executing failed policies. Perhaps new blood would do some good. That is, of course, if this President would hire someone not currently entrenched in the neocon agenda.
Call me cynical, but I don’t see it happening.
Thanks Arne.
ReplyDeleteYou are right about Jon Stewart. TDS and now, the Colbert Report have been my saving grace- my aid to clinging to sanity through these difficult Bush years.
Cheers to you as well
Bart said: In a conventional war like the opening 3 weeks in Iraq, Rummy proved that you need very few troops to decisively destroy a conventional military. Rummy not only proved that you didn't need the half million called for by General Shinseki, the military actually accomplished this feat without the services of the 4th Mech Division after Turkey denied it access.
ReplyDeleteFirst, we learned this lesson in Kosovo under a different President and Secy. Of Defense. We disabled an entire army with out one boot on the ground, and without the benefit of a decade of crippling sanctions, on and off inspections, and controlled no-fly zones.
Nothing new there.
Second, Shinseki stated that the 250,000 troops would be necessary to secure Iraq after military victory. I guess Rummy really proved who was right about that. Wasn’t it Rummy who thought the whole mission could be done with 30,000 troops? Oops!
Eyes Wide Open:
ReplyDeleteFrom The Hound of Heaven by Francis Thompson (1859-1907)
"All things betray thee, who betrayest Me."
That is how I look at Justice. Betray it, and all things will be betray you in the end even though sometimes it takes a little while for the mills to grind fine enough to sift things out.
I like the formulation of Robert Bolt in "A Man For All Seasons:"
(pardon the length, but it's an amazing dialogue):
ROPER Arrest him.
ALICE Yes!
MORE For what?
ALICE He's dangerous!
ROPER For libel; he's a spy.
ALICE He is! Arrest him!
MARGARET Father, that man's bad.
MORE There is no law against that.
ROPER There is! God's law!
MORE Then God can arrest him.
ROPER Sophistication upon sophistication!
MORE No, sheer simplicity. The law, Roper, the law. I know what's legal not what's right. And I'll stick to what's legal.
ROPER Then you set man's law above God's!
MORE No, far below; but let me draw your attention to a fact -- I'm not God. The currents and eddies of right and wrong, which you find such plain sailing, I can't navigate. I'm no voyager. But in the thickets of the law, oh, there I'm a forester. I doubt if there's a man alive who could follow me there, thank God . . . (He says this last to himself)
ALICE (Exasperated, pointing after RICH) While you talk, he's gone!
MORE And go he should, if he was the Devil himself, until he broke the law!
ROPER So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
MORE Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
ROPER I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
MORE (Roused and excited) Oh? (Advances on ROPER) And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you-where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? (He leaves him) This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast-man's laws, not God's -- and if you cut them down -- and you're just the man to do it -- d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? (Quietly) Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.
ROPER I have long suspected this; this is the golden calf; the law's your god.
Cheers,
motives for profit?
ReplyDeletehow about bush's oil connections?cheney's halliburton connections?
excuse me but mud slinging has a tendency to splash back sometimes and maybe it is time to sling it back?
i just have too much respect for these generals maybe and maybe i am naive but being raised in a military family i find it impossible to even try to imagine that all these generals are speaking out for profit reasons.military training just doesnt allow them to change like that.
my question is why did they retire when they did? what pressure was being pressed on them that they felt it necessary to leave their LIFE behind?
br3n
Propulgate said...
ReplyDeleteBart said: In a conventional war like the opening 3 weeks in Iraq, Rummy proved that you need very few troops to decisively destroy a conventional military. Rummy not only proved that you didn't need the half million called for by General Shinseki, the military actually accomplished this feat without the services of the 4th Mech Division after Turkey denied it access.
First, we learned this lesson in Kosovo under a different President and Secy. Of Defense. We disabled an entire army with out one boot on the ground, and without the benefit of a decade of crippling sanctions, on and off inspections, and controlled no-fly zones.
Please.
The Serbs and Croats had already completed their ethnic cleansing in Bosnia while the US and the Euros watched before they allowed outsiders to come in to actually enforce those illegitimate borders.
In the case of the Serbs in Kosovo, the enemy politicians gave up after being bombed. Saddam was made of sterner stuff and the Iraqis fought a ground campaign.
Bosnia and Kosovo were nothing like Iraq during the Persian Gulf War or the Iraq War.
bart genuflects: Dr. Hanson is a well published military historian of international repute.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, good God man! Did you not know this? Victor Davis Hanson is a well published military historian of international repute.
And you wish to suggest that the arguments of mere generals back from Afghansitan and Iraq should not have their motives questioned by a well published military historian of international repute?!
What has gotten into you, Glenn?
Thank you, Bart, for setting things straight. Now that I know Dr. Hanson is a well published military historian of international repute, I fully understand how wrong the retired generals are.
I have rarely been so proud of my fellow American bloggers as when I read the comments section to Alan Dershowitz's post on the Huffington Blog.
ReplyDeleteThe Lobby, Jews and Anti-Semites
I strongly urge you all if you want to do something really upbeat for yourselves to go and read those comments.
I am not usually such a big fan of the comment section at Huffington Post, but for once, it is one of the finest comment sections I have ever seen on the Internet.
The comments are posted by Jews, Christians, Muslims, atheists, etc. and almost to a person, they FINALLY call out this despicable fraud and attack his latest attempt to silence all discussion about our country's foreign policy with relationship to Israel by branding everyone who wants to enter into a sincere discussion an anti-semite.
I can't think of anything more inspiring and heartening than to see how the same people who a year or two would have been afraid to take on Dershowitz for fear of being labelled anti-semites or self-hating Jews are now no longer afraid and rise up as one to finally call Dershowitz, that scumbag who came out in favor of torture, to task for trying to use his same tired, discredited trick of stifling all discussion by accusing everyone who dares to question AIPECS' views for America foreign policy of being an anti-semite.
Really. You have to read those comments. I didn't see one comment that appeared to be written by anyone who was a bigot. Instead they were written by thoughtful, informed people who had reached the limit of being pushed around by the smarmy techniques that Dershowitz and his crowd have been so successful at for so long.
It must have been a real eye-opener for Dershowitz because I doubt he expected such a response from a liberal leaning blog whose readers and bloggers are significantly Jewish.
The world is getting smarter! Maybe there IS hope for America after all.
Boy, am I glad to see this whole Israel issue finally plied, kicking and screaming, away from the "Jewish issue." I, for one, never thought they had anything to do with each other. As one of the commenters there points out, over 70% of the people who live in Israel are in favor of a palestinian state.
And American Jews have always been in the vanguard in this country when it comes to the issue of civil rights.
oh oh -- we are starting to get flatulence in this thread.
ReplyDeleteLast night as watched the dark countenance of Joseph McCarthy on the screen in “Good night, and Good Luck” I was struck by the similarity of some of his words to much we are hearing today, and the thought struck me that McCarthy’s tactics have been institutionalized and that we have a small army of McCarthys practicing their trade – most of them much more articulate and photogenic than he was.
ReplyDeleteHe was, however, the definitive bully and coward - an amalgam of Hannity, O’Reilly, Limbaugh and their wannabes who try to perfect smears of character and patriotism into an art form. Victor Hanson works hard at this craft.
As McCarthy grew weaker, his smears became more frequent, more ferocious, and more unfounded. And I find this is true with many of the modern-day McCarthyites who are, as Glenn points out, feeling very weak, small and vulnerable right now – their fearless, infallible leader has been exposed as a fraud, and a dangerous one at that.
The only recourse for them, I’m afraid, is a new war, and a new chance to show their superior machismo. Joseph McCarthy went after the military too, and it was a good part of his undoing. That is why it is so significant to see the military beginning to rebel against Bush.
If Hersh is correct and some of the Joint Chiefs of Staff resign in protest over Bush’s plans, that could be the event that might have more effect in stopping Bush than what many of our politicians could do. We can hope they will try to stop him.
I can’t help but wonder how career military people view the smears against these generals. It will be interesting to see how far these smears will go. And the response.
Maybe the “hero” that Arthur Silber is looking for will come wearing military uniforms. The way things are going that is a very real possibility.
I’ll give the last words to Edward R. Murrow:
"No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices."
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it.".
EWO writes: Jews are now no longer afraid and rise up as one to finally call Dershowitz, that scumbag who came out in favor of torture,
ReplyDeleteI used to be a great admirer of Alan Dershowitz. But then I read his argument that we needed to devise a legal procedure for obtaining "torture warrants."
Torture warrants.
TORTURE WARRANTS.
He claimed it is going to go on anyway, so we may as well accept it and control it with some judicial supervision.
Uh, how about just flatly prohibiting freakin' torture in the United States, or as a means permitted to be empoloyed by our agents anywhere?
Torture WARRANTS in the United States of America?
Wow. Just wow.
Ugly American asks: I hope you can see that General Pace disagrees with the generals you have so much respect for. so I ask again do you also respect general Pace?
ReplyDeleteGen. Pace is still active duty and not free to speak his mind, if it contravenes the positions taken by the Sec'y of Defense and the CiC.
In any event, the mere existence of a good number of retired generals who served in Afghanistan and Iraq -- who are free to speak -- coming out in strong denunciation of Rumsfeld as incompetent and Iraq as a failed war, is extremely significant. More so, in my view, than the expected endorsements of Gen. Pace, who is still serving at Rumsfeld's pleasure.
ugly american: How do you explain his difference of opinion from the retired generals whos word you put so much faith in?
ReplyDeleteI love this little quote from Intel Dump on General Pace (via Defense Tech, a pro-military blog):
This is a classic example of the bait-and-switch defense. Pace is defending Rumsfeld from those who "question the dedication, the patriotism and the work ethic of Secretary Rumsfeld." Great. Who the hell questions that? NOBODY. What they do question is his competence and his arrogance. ...
I also think it wrong that some people accuse Gen. Pace of eating crap sandwiches every day, sandwiches that are served up by Rumsfeld. People can question Gen. Pace's honesty, integrity, and loyalty to the Constitution. They can accuse him of being a partisan hack in a military that should be apolitical. They can accuse him of placing more value on his career advancement than he attaches to the lives of his soldiers and marines. But it is wrong to accuse Gen. Pace of eating crap sandwiches.
Because I've heard he doesn't even like bread. He sure seems to like cheese though.
"Punch one of them in the nose as hard as you can and then stand your ground."
ReplyDeleteHow much do you want to bet that Jonah got "pantsed" by bullies a lot and never had the nerve to take his own advice? Or, that the one time he did, he got the living shit beaten out of him and never did it again, resorting instead to staining the keys of his computer to be permanently "Tawny Cheeto Gold."
While we are quoting literature, I observe that
ReplyDeleteBush has progressively freed himself from the law as he has surrounded himself with lying advisors {spirits}. Is he the modern Ahab?
1 Kings 22:17-22 (New Revised Standard Version):
17 And he said, "I saw all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd; and the LORD said, 'These have no master; let each return to his home in peace.'" 18 And the king of Israel [Ahab] said to Jehosh'aphat, "Did I not tell you that he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil?" 19 And Micai'ah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; 20 and the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said one thing, and another said another. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, 'I will entice him.' 22 And the LORD said to him, 'By what means?' And he said, 'I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go forth and do so.'
Bush, through John Yoo, Alito, and Gonzales, like Ahab, has freed himself from the law. He has humbled the Congress and packed the Supreme Court so that he no longer has any check on his power. He has true freedom to act.
Having true freedom, that is the power to act as he pleases and to make his own "law", the more he is diminished in stature before the World and the American people, the more dangerous he becomes.
Where is our Micai'ah
?
Fred Kaplan has a very interesting article on the military revolt against Rumsfeld, and it’s first sentence is a classic:
ReplyDeleteIt's an odd thought, but a military coup in this country right now would probably have a moderating influence.
There’s a lot more interesting quotes in there as well, a couple more:
Some of the most respected retired generals are publicly criticizing Rumsfeld and his policies in a manner that's nearly unprecedented in the United States, where civilian control of the military is accepted as a hallowed principle.
But the most eye-popping instance appears in this week's Time magazine, where retired Lt. Gen. Greg Newbold, the former operations director for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, not only slams the secretary and what he calls "the unnecessary war" but also urges active-duty officers who share his views to speak up:
“I now regret that I did not more openly challenge those who were determined to invade a country whose actions were peripheral to the real threat—al-Qaeda. … [T]he Pentagon's military leaders … with few exceptions, acted timidly when their voices urgently needed to be heard. When they knew the plan was flawed, saw intelligence distorted to justify a rationale for war, or witnessed arrogant micromanagement that at times crippled the military's effectiveness, many leaders who wore the uniform chose inaction. … It is time for senior military leaders to discard caution in expressing their views and ensure that the President hears them clearly. And that we won't be fooled again.”
On the reason why more military leaders aren’t speaking up:
Some have no problem with the war or the way it has been conducted. Many others take very seriously the principle of civilian control; they firmly believe it is not their place to disagree with the president and his duly appointed secretary of defense—certainly not to do so in public, especially while the nation is at war.
Don’t criticize while the nation is at war. Does that sound familiar?
"Dr. Hanson is a well published military historian of international repute."
ReplyDeleteAppeal To Authority, a logical fallacy.
"Dr. Hanson spends 3/4 of the article directly rebutting the arguments of some of these generals, not just attacking their "motives.""
Why attack their motives at all? To do so is to engage in Ad Hominem argumentation, a logical fallacy.
Patrick Meighan
Venice, CA
Someone earlier mentioned Col. Larry Wilkerson's lecture and Q&A on C-Span. Wilkerson is Colin Powell's former right-hand man at the State Dept. He has controversially asserted that a "cabal" centered around Cheney and Rumsfeld has usurped power in the WH.
ReplyDeleteWilkerson's appearance on C-Span is now available. You'll have to go to the site to access the online video since the link function in this comments section does not accept javascript.
Ugly American writes: The truth is this is an honest disagreement between generals. The attempt by the left and other detractors to characterize it as anything else is purely political.
ReplyDeleteI don't care who characterizes it how; I can read, and have read the various generals for myself. I am also able to form an opinion as to what it means when many retired generals who served in Afghanistan and Iraq call the Sec'y of Defense an incompetent and call for his resignation. And when they declare Iraq a failure.
These are not moonbats who hate America. That they speak out as they have is, to me, extremely significant. Far more so than that Gen. Pace chose not to retire, and chooses instead to defend those who control his career path.
ugly said: Are you a hypocrite or were you just pointing to the hypocrisy of others?
ReplyDeleteThat word in your mouth smells like what the thought and motive behind you and your Fuhrer smells like.
"The truth is this is an honest disagreement between generals. The attempt by the left and other detractors to characterize it as anything else is purely political."
ReplyDeleteuh who said it was generals pumping for book sales?
general pace is not free to state his opinion in PUBLIC.
there are military rules that forbid him doing that while he is still in the service.
he may state things in private but not in public that is different from the CIC.
even military children are not free to state certain things without it reflecting back on the military parent.
br3n
I think that's the more likely relationship between his popularity and the probability of an attack - the more unpopular he is, the more likely is an attack.
ReplyDeleteAs a student of American history and later teacher of same, I learned the established list of causes for WWI: Extreme nationalism, extreme militarism, and imperialism. Rinse and repeat as the causes for WWII.
Sometimes, we lose focus and must be forcibly be brought back to the truth of the War in Iraq. The invasion of Iraq was an act of aggression. Iraq posed no threat to the United States, there was no humanitarian crisis afoot in the country, and no international body like the UN or NATO sanctioned the invasion. In short, Bush's Doctrine of Preemption was and remains an excuse for military aggression. The invasion of Iraq was a war crime.
Unfortunately, imcompetence and corruption do not explain away the immorality and yes, the sinfulness adherent in the invasion and destruction of a nation, its people, its property and its treasure.
Evidently discussion and plans are now underway that could conceivably lead to the most extreme example of military aggression in the history of the world: A preemptive nuclear strike.
These folks are war criminals pure and simple no matter how their supporters try to otherwise frame their actions.
And....
The Ugly American said...
Well Hypatia General Pace is well decorated and the acting Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Does his opinion count?
How do you explain his difference of opinion from the retired generals whos word you put so much faith in?
Ugly, you obviously have no experience with the military or the Code of Conduct underwhich they operation. Military officers indeed active military personnel period, are not permitted to express opinions in contradiction to or critical of the country and/or its leaders.
Hanson's comments about the motivations of the generals are not the only problem (of course) with his article.
ReplyDeleteFirst, consider his three alternatives for dealing with Iraq: leave Iraq to the Europeans to figure out; live with a nuclear Iraq; attack Iraq at the last minute. All bad. That's it? He can't think of anything else? Direct engagement, maybe?
Second, Hanson doesn't really address the main point of criticism of Rumsfeld, which is that he's incompetent and should step down. Hanson simply argues that no one (Democrats or the retired generals) has offered anything new. Even if that were true, the idea is to get better decision-makers in place for future problems that might have easier-to-see solutions.
Finally, I wonder if Hansen's WWII analogies would be as facile if they were based on Viet Nam? His dismissal of the idea of learning from past failures leaves us never looking back, never cutting our losses, never even considering that it might be best to just get out.
I'm only too happy to see the right continue to alienate the armed services by treating them alternately like servants and like toilet paper.
ReplyDeleteNice going, guys.
.
Anon writes: Second, Hanson doesn't really address the main point of criticism of Rumsfeld, which is that he's incompetent and should step down. Hanson simply argues that no one (Democrats or the retired generals) has offered anything new. Even if that were true, the idea is to get better decision-makers in place for future problems that might have easier-to-see solutions.
ReplyDeleteExcuse me, but didn't you read Bart's post?
Victor Davis Hanson is a well published military historian of international repute.
And you dare to question his reasoning? Why, what is the matter with you?
...didn't you read Bart's post?
ReplyDeleteOF COURSE NOT!!!!!!!
this "copy and paste" troll long ago proved that he brings nothing but distortion and off-topic talking points to the thread.
He is a troll of the clipboard variety -- taking the wingnut crap from other sites and dumping it into these threads regardless of its merits, whether or not it is topical, or it it is even truthful.
He doesn't actually read the orginal posts or these threads, just cherry picks some topics that allow him to copy and paste crap in.
Fifth general tells Rumsfeld to vacate the premises.
ReplyDeleteVia Glenn “Instapudit” Reynolds, poor Newt Gingrich now says:
ReplyDeletethe press misrepresented his position
Gee, don’t you hate it when they do that? And have the darn video clip to prove it too!
the overwhelming sense i get from these chickenhawks like goldberg, domenech, carlson, et al. is one of the skinny nerdy kids who find validation standing behind the jocks. some of them might have been yell leaders in college even...
ReplyDeletethey don't have the stomach to get in fray, except with words, but they are the most bold, but with no risk...
that seems to be why these chickenhawk consevatives embrace the national security blanket so tightly because it allows them to seem like they're on the same team as the jocky military guys, so they find cover for their inadequacy or insecurity.
but when these same military guys turn on them, they lose that cover, and you see these insecure inadequate boy-men try to find a reason to lash out, but they shrivel in plain view of everyone.
poor sad boys
I had another look at Professor Hanson's original article, mainly to see if Bart was on to something (hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day). Sadly, he isn't; Hanson's hatchet job draws meangingless historical parallels, marches out long-discredited lies (even going so far to state Iraq and Al Qaeda were working together), and painting a disjointed Picasso of extant issues yet to be addressed (Iran's nuclear program, Pakistan, oil concerns, and the challenges continued deployment in Iraq faces).
ReplyDeleteI checked over at amazon.com under his name. For a guy who writes alternatively about warfare during the Classical Era (Greece and the like) and agrarian culture, you'd think he could pull together a more coherent article. But then he also writes for "Commentary", "The New Criterion" and other forgetable publications.
And, as usual, Bart misses the mark from the outset, as Professor Hanson practically starts out painting all those retirees criticizing this mess of an Administration with a tar brush, all because General Zinni has a book coming out.
Really, I'm starting to wonder about this character.
"Ugly Ameican" [quoting General Peter Pace]:
ReplyDeleteAnd before the final orders were given, the Joint Chiefs met in private with General Franks and assured ourselves that the plan was a solid plan and that the resources that he needed were going to be allocated.
If they did, they were all wrong. But Pace doesn't speak for them (and the active ones can't speak for themselves, nor can they divulge the process of "reassurance" ... Rummy's got a bit of a temper, I've heard).
Cheers,
From Bart at 4:42PM:
ReplyDelete"In a conventional war like the opening 3 weeks in Iraq, Rummy proved that you need very few troops to decisively destroy a conventional military. Rummy not only proved that you didn't need the half million called for by General Shinseki, the military actually accomplished this feat without the services of the 4th Mech Division after Turkey denied it access."
Absolutely correct! In fact, I can't think of a single analyst who was saying THE INVASION would prove a problem or get drawn out or even stood a snowballs chance of being effectively countered!
THE OCCUPATION, on the other hand...
"However, you need boots on the ground to hold the ground against an insurgency. The troops tasked for this purpose in Iraq were insufficient. That means that the US must either remobilize more troops or they need to refine the models used in Afghanistan and now Iraq by mobilizing a friendly local army."
Again absolutely correct! Which is exactly why General Shinseki was so adament about needing 300,000 to 500,000 troops, which, guess what: WE DIDN'T HAVE!
The invasion was a masterpiece of military art, combining years of training and (mostly) the best equipment we could field.
The occupation and reconstruction, by contrast, has been a COMPLETE AND TOTAL DISASTER that our country will be paying for, quite possibly for the next 50 years!
Bart, I really hope you aren't some paid shill like Hiatt, Goldberg and the rest. But could you *please* give some thought to joining the rest of us here on Planet Earth sometime?
"Ugly American":
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, and BTW, General Pace thinks things in Iraq are just hunky-dory. Even earned him a video spot on The Daily Show, IIRC.
Cheers,
Bart, I really hope you aren't some paid shill like Hiatt, Goldberg and the rest. But could you *please* give some thought to joining the rest of us here on Planet Earth sometime?
ReplyDeleteHe only exists here to inflame via dishonest, usually tangent bits and pieces of text that he collects on his clipboard.
The fact that he uses the moniker of a bratty, mischievious TV character should say something.
Could be a paid shill or he could just be dumping these posts from his clipboard with no real thought of the post or comments.
Either way, he gets elevated to far to great a status here.
HE IS A COPY AND PASTE TROLL, NOTHING MORE AND NOTHING LESS
"Ugly American":
ReplyDeleteThere is a long line of retired generals who support our current policy not to mention millions of active duty throughout the ranks who are re-enlising at record rates. Are they all liars and fools?
OIC. I'd say that, based on your HUYA posture here, that you've demonstrated quite clearly who the "liar[] and [the] fool[]" is: It's ... waiddaminit ... <*drum-roll*> ... Ta-da! YOU!
Cheers,
Yankeependragon:
ReplyDeleteBart, I really hope you aren't some paid shill like Hiatt, Goldberg and the rest. But could you *please* give some thought to joining the rest of us here on Planet Earth sometime?
Why don't we encourage him to join the brave troops in Iraq (and now Iran too) instead? He can take VDH, Jonah the Whale, and the rest of the Chairborne Division of the 101st Fighting Keyboarders with him. They can take the place in the grist-mill of body poarts over there of the poor honest soldiers who are still dying by the dozens every month....
Cheers,
"White House Stands by Rumsfeld" says the headlines.
ReplyDelete"Steinbrenner Vows Billy Martin's Job Not In Jeopardy" I read.
You heard it here first: Rummy is gone by Independence Day.
Slightly off-topic, for which I apologize, but I've promised both my U.S. Senators to publish on glenn and FDL, kos, crooks & liars, my responses to their form letter replies to my calls for them to support Senator Feingold's censure motion. So, here goes:
ReplyDeleteThe form letter (from Durbin):
Thank you for your message. I would, of course, appreciate your presence at the weekly constituent coffees that Senator Obama and I host in Washington. Please feel free to call my office in Washington for details
about these events.
I understand your concern about the National Security Agency's
warrantless wiretapping program, and I share your frustration that the Majority in Congress has moved so slowly to investigate the program. You received the same letter from me because I continue to believe that before a vote is held in the Senate on Senator Feingold's censure resolution, we
need to conduct a thorough investigation on the nature of this surveillance and the legal decisionmaking process that was used to justify it. That investigation should guide us to the appropriate response.
Thank you again for your message.
Sincerely,
Richard J. Durbin
United States Senator
And my response:
Dear Senator Durbin,
I'm afraid I'm not convinced by your arguments.
As a native of Peoria, I grew up actually believing that the U.S. had a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people." The past six years have persuaded me that I was duped, like so many million others of the working class. I had the incomparable good fortune to receive a great liberal education -a B.A. and M.A (Ancient Greek,
Classics), and an MPhil and PhD (Classics). I learned to read, to analyze, to reflect, and to think -critically - about what was happening in the world around me. Perhaps this was unfortunate for me.
That FISA was violated - repeatedly, and for numerous surveillance programs - you and your fellow-Senators know full well.
That the U.S. was deliberately misled into the disastrous invasion of Iraq in 2003, you and your fellow-Senators know full well.
That this Republican Administration is obsessively focused on the Project for the New American Century, which has nothing whatsoever to do with republican democracy of any sort, you and your fellow-Senators know full well.
The only conclusion that any thinking human being can reach in light of the past six years (or perhaps, twenty-six) is that democracy as we were taught it was a sham.
You and Senator Obama, as my own state's elected Senators, have made me feel that my entire belief-and-value-system were a bill of false goods, a case of political bait-and-switch, and that despite my education and devotion to public affairs I have been "had" for fifty years.
My ancestors arrived in America with William Penn's second expedition in 1682. It took them more than 200 years to begin emigrating out from Appalachia. It is very hard to see what precisely my grandparents gained by leaving Virginia, to emigrate to central Illinois in 1915.
But perhaps your staff assistants can enlighten me with another form
letter.
Your disillusioned constituent,
From arne langsetmo at 7:36PM:
ReplyDelete"Why don't we encourage him to join the brave troops in Iraq (and now Iran too) instead?"
I've actually though about that; many times in fact. But then that what fun would we have without his many, many efforts?
The Ugly American said...
ReplyDeleteThere is a long line of retired generals who support our current policy not to mention millions of active duty throughout the ranks who are re-enlising at record rates. Are they all liars and fools?
Care to name any of them besides Myers? Haven't heard of any yet. As for record re-enlistments two points.
I was gung ho and served three tours in Viet Nam. That didn't make the Viet Nam war right. It just showed that I was too close to the trees to see the forest.
Second point: Faced with stop loss and indeterminate involuntary extension of service or re-enlistment with a large financial bonus what exactly do you expect the enlisted to do. It just shows they have the common sense to get some money out of the involuntary servitude that is going to be forced on them anyway.
This is nothing more than an old tactic from Viet Nam. When the war starts going bad, don't blame those who start it and manage it but shift the blame to those that fight it.
ReplyDeleteIt is simply an attempt to shift blame from Bush, Cheny, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Pearle, Bolten et al to the Generals that are now starting to critisize it. Soon the fault will shift to the troops doing the fighting for the failure to succeed in Iraq and Afghanistan. God forbid the politicians take any blame for their decisions.
Now that's comedy.
ReplyDeleteWhat Rumsfeld could learn from seventh graders: When is a fight in the schoolyard over?
ReplyDeleteIt's when the loser gives up.
In WWII Germany and Japan gave up.
In the Iraq war, Iraq hasn't given up. Hell, is there even anyone to surrender to us?
Rummy has forgotten everything he's ever learned on the playground.
Startling that it's taken this long for everyone to recognize it, and all these military professionals feel duty-bound to call him on it in public.
Gen. Batiste tonight on The News Hour states that numerous appeals were made for more troops. While this isn't exactly news to anyone, it does contradict the claim by Bush that no requests were made. Here's the quote.
ReplyDeleteBush: "And I will make decisions on the level of troops, based upon the recommendations by the commanders on the ground. If they tell me we need more troops, we'll provide more troops."
Gee, who should I believe? Tough call. Commander Codpiece or actual military commanders. Hmmmm. Could somebody help me out here?
"So let us have far less self-serving second-guessing, and far more national confidence that we are winning — and that radical Islamists and their fascist supporters in the Middle East are soon going to lament the day that they ever began this war."
ReplyDelete- - -
Arguing against his own postion by calling for ...'far less second-guessing...' all the while second-guessing the Generals' motives.
L-O-fookin-L!
"...are soon going to lament the day that they ever began this war."
What Vic/s really trying to say here is, "...are soon going to lament the day that they ever began this war when we glass 'em all..
Criticisms of the Administration come "right around publication date." That's because nobody really finds genuine fault with the Administration. They're just all trying to sell books.
ReplyDeleteSurely W is the most betrayed president in history. It's truly astounding how many erstwhile conservatives, people with stellar records of bipartisan service in 3 administrations, members of his father's inner circle, members of his own administration and others with--so it seems--impeccable Republican credentials all turn out to have been infected by this self-serving, irrational Bush-hating virus. It's just incredible how so many people who started out as trustworthy, loyal Republicans or bipartisans suddenly start spewing all this insane Bush hatred just to make a buck. Guys with decades of public service and self-sacrifice like these generals. Suddenly just going whacko for no reason except, yeah, probly to sell books and make bucks by stabbing poor W in the back.
Either that, or he really is as big of a disastrous fuck-up as all these people say he is.
Not all the generals dumping on Rummy have pure motives, it seems. See this on Gen. Batiste, from Defense Tech.
ReplyDeleteOf course, Jonah Goldberg, my favorite little pear-shaped, coke-bottle-eyed far right "I have better things to do than serve in the army" service-dodger, is still getting "pantsed."
ReplyDeleteSo, the logic is, you can't criticize the war during wartime. It is tantamount to treason. The result of the logic is either an endless war or a disastrous collapse, since there can't be no "check" on the war. What extraordinary folly.
ReplyDeleteIt's militarized civilians, who conceive of the world as such a dangerous place that military power had to predominate, that constitutional constraints on the military need to be loosened.
ReplyDelete--Cynic Librarian, quoting Harpers
Here's the thing though. Those exact same civilians were pushing the exact same conception of the world back in the 80s. Then it was the USSR that required us to discard the restraints of constitutional democracy because civil liberties and all that were such a crippling obstacle to countering a desperate and growing threat from the East. They accused the CIA of misunderestimating that threat (the notorious 'Team B' analysis of the soviet target) and were predicting doom if we didn't start realizing just what horrific danger we were in. All the while the USSR was actually collapsing from within.
Did that unequivocal evidence that the 'Team B' analysis (and the world view that drove it) was dead wrong phase them in the least? Not hardly. They rapidly reformed as PNAC and shifted their attention to Iraq. Iraq was the key to solving the big international problem and establishing the "New American Century." What was the problem? We dunno, they said. All's they knew was you'd need some kind of a "Pearl Harbor-like event" to bring about the new order. Which would (though they didn't say it) surely involve the kind of dire measures and constitutional constrictions that surely must be necessary in this dangerous old world that was just TOO dangerous for conventional solutions--and nobody could see that but them. After the fall of the USSR it was kinda maybe China, or kinda probably Iraq that was the threat. After 9/11 it was al Quaeda, and Afghanistan... or Iraq, which was the same thing more or less. They're all Arabs right? What's the diff, and Iraq had certain collateral attractions.
Funny how the "solution" is a constant, while the "problem" is a shifting and rather trivial variable. The "problem" shifts around to something else whenever the previous one turns out to be an illusion. Can we say WMDs? I knew we could. Iran, though, now there's a real threat. Yeah, pretty sure about that one. Dire. Like nothing else we've ever faced before. Radical measures necessary. Nukes 'n' stuff.
Pretty clear, in other words, it's the solution they're focused on. That's what they want to bring about; the excuse for doing it is incidental. Funny how one finally did just fall into their laps on 9/11, though. What a lucky break that was.
the cynic librarian said...
ReplyDeleteNot all the generals dumping on Rummy have pure motives, it seems. See this on Gen. Batiste, from Defense Tech.
Not many would give up their retirement check that they spent 30+ years earning for 15 minutes of fame. Wish we had more heroes but can't say that I blame them. Especially since we have a habit of really dumping on our heroes. We courtmartialed Billy Mitchell, and Truman fired Douglas MacArthur
From MacArthurs online biog.
http://usinfo.state.gov/usa
/infousa/facts/democrac/58.htm
There is a tradition in American government that the military is subordinate to the civilian leaders. Generals do not make statements about policy without first clearing them with their superiors. But MacArthur, used to ruling in Japan, ignored the chain of command, and began writing letters about what the United States should do in Korea. He sent a letter to the Veterans of Foreign Wars saying that Formosa would be a fine place to launch an aggressive campaign against China. After the Chinese entered the war -- something MacArthur had assured Truman would never happen -- MacArthur wrote to Speaker of the House Joe Martin saying the United States could only win by an all-out war, and this meant bombing the Manchurian bases. So Harry Truman fired him
Hypatia, I agree exactly about Alan Dershowitz. Just as it was the Terry Schiavo issue (I missed all that)that began to turn you against this Administration, it was definitely the torture issue that made me wake up and suddenly take notice. I had always been disgusted with the increasing invasions of privacy that were brought on by the Patriot Act but until the torture issue hit the radar screen, I was otherwise not paying much attention to anything. State sanctioned torture so shocked my conscience that I couldn't think of anything else for at least two weeks. After that, I began examining everything.
ReplyDeleteThat is why Dershowitz's comments on that issue so upset me.
BTW, hypatia, zack makes some points about Sen. McCarthy. I respect zack's opinion, but I have never been at all convinced that Sen. McCarthy was the monster that the left has made him out to be.
Admittedly knowing only what I have heard over the years and read recently,
which is sketchy, it appears to me that in fact his charges about a communist infiltration in this country were well founded. While everyone seems to agree that his style and approach were objectionable, do you and jao think that he is the monster everyone now says he is?
If some elected official were to really come out swinging now and demand investigations into the neocons, torture, the detainment camps, illegal surveillance, the facts behind the invasion of Iraq, etc., we'd all be applauding that person if he grabbed the spotlight and wouldn't let up, wouldn't we?
BTW, here is an article on a possible merger of two intelligence departments which sounds disturbing especially in light of the Linda Tripp type stuff it brings up.
America's Secret Police?
Finally did anyone read From the China Lobby to the Israel Lobby?
I must admit this article is pause for thought, as it looks at everything from a somewhat different, far more reassuring point of view. I just don't know if the author is right or not.
"Ugly American":
ReplyDeleteSure, sure, keep Rummy around. And dontcha worry, Dubya ain't gonna let him go. Wouldn't want to give credence to the ugly rumours that things aren't going just as planned, and everything's not quite coming up roses. I'm quite sure the American public will see Dubya's resoluteness in the face of critic... -- umm, sorry, "adversity" -- and see that he really is a brilliant strategerist, and a quite decent, downright honest, and likeable guy to boot.
Keep to the game plan, guy! We'd really be rooting for you too ... except for the niggling little detail that we're getting a couple more body bags every day back in Dover. Well, to take the Republican view of things, "small price to pay for freedom", eh?
Cheers,
Gotta love mo, a person with his "outrage" thermostat still working perfectly. I wish everyone was like that.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, let me do a little beating of a General myself (and thanks for the link).
Q: Why are we here?
BATISTE: To end radical Islamic fundamentalism.
Q: But wasn't Saddam Hussein's regime hostile to radical Islamists?
BATISTE: We could argue about that all night.
Translation: another Dr.Strangelove. Lunatic. Part of the problem, not the solution.
When evaluating the "war critic Generals", we have to make sure to separate the wheat from the chaff.
EWO: Finally did anyone read From the China Lobby to the Israel Lobby?
ReplyDeleteJust did; thanks for the link; was wondering why no one had enlarged on this comparison.
I must admit this article is pause for thought, as it looks at everything from a somewhat different, far more reassuring point of view. I just don't know if the author is right or not.
I'm a little puzzled about what you think is in question, (or is so reassuring). Most of the article is true beyond serious doubt. I guess, about the overall responsibility for Middle East policy? Here I think the author fails to maintain necessary distinctions and is not entirely consistent. There is little doubt that the IL is a powerful independent force in its main concern - American policy toward Israel. IMHO its effect has been quite negative, helping Israel reject the public peace offers Arab states (and a little later the Palestinians) have been making for 35+ years, largely by keeping the US public in the dark about basic facts of the conflict. The lobby is/was strong enough to successfully push for crazy policy, completely against US interests, when it directly regards Israel - shielding it from UN resolutions and from having to abide by the Geneva Conventions.
Regarding issues outside of Israel, the Lobby is a lot weaker. It was just a welcome fellow traveller in the Iraq war, that it was the driving force is silly. Sure, the Israeli lobby isn't strong enough to "change policies in the Middle East based on a [US president's] calculation of American interests" regarding Iran, but it sure as hell has been regarding Israel. The Israel lobby is pretty clearly getting weaker, just as the China lobby got weaker when Nixon left it - nothing lasts forever - but he is making something of a logical error by saying "powerful lobbies can only .. thrive in the context of existing consensus." Of course the job of a lobby is to form, change or maintain such consensuses, which don't come out of nowhere.
EWO,
ReplyDeleteRe: McCarthy. I think the issue is not so much whether there were efforts at communist infiltration in the 40s and 50s. It seems clear that at least some of that was going on.
I think the issue is whether or not McCarthy's charges were well-founded enough for him to be making the non-specific and specific accusations he was making given the consequences to the individuals and organizations involved. It seems clear in retrospect that they were not.
But I would agree that the McCarthy era and McCarthy himself are overdue for renewed study in light of newly available documentation of that era. And in light of the parallels to today.
I couldn't let this slide by:
ReplyDelete...and that radical Islamists and their fascist supporters in the Middle East are soon going to lament the day that they ever began this war.
Who started this war? I thought it was Bush.
Attacking the motives of the critics doesn't change the fact that what they are saying matches the reality in Iraq. Alternately, Rumsfeld sounds like Zig Ziglar meets the president of the Iraqi Chamber of Commerce.
ReplyDeleteSlightly off topic comment. Hope all of you get a chance to watch C-Span's Washington Journal Friday morning's version. They are playing clips of Karl Rove's speech in Houston then letting folks comment.
ReplyDeleteShorter Rove message: "Be afraid, be very, very afraid. The boogeyman is coming, he's in your town, he's in your neighborhood, he's on your street, he's in your driveway, he's at your door......"
mo: Yes, some of them are. Strangely enough, though, they are us:
ReplyDeleteAnti-Government White Supremacist Guilty
JACKSON, Tenn. - A federal jury convicted a white supremacist Thursday of attempting to acquire chemical weapons and explosives to destroy government buildings.
In tapes recorded by an undercover agent and played at his trial, Demetrius Van Crocker said that he dreamed of setting off a dirty bomb at the U.S. Capitol and that he wanted a helicopter license so he could bomb black neighborhoods or spray them with poison gas.
to Anonymous from Illinois:
ReplyDeleteI thought your letter back to Durbin and Obama was excellent.
But the conversation would be easier to follow if you and others would "choose an identity" other than "anonymous." It gets confusing with so many Anonymice.
One cannot miss the sanctimony of retiring first before speaking out. Neither of these retired military dissenters had the courage of Shinseki. Regardless of their subservience to civilian policy strategists, they do know the implications of any joint operation with civilian private enterprise outfits. The retired and serving military brass very knowingly did compromise and continue to their professional ethics. Can it be that they do so after retirement to excuse themselves of any ensuing war crimes charges? Is that the real motivation for these people to speak out when it makes no difference? I would like to think reluctant participation is no defence if such charges ever materialise but........ I think, too, that we are overanalysing WH responses and pronouncements re a world that they do not care to know let alone understand, thus playing the game on their terms. The stormtroopers of the Bastille in 1789 devised their own gameplan.
ReplyDeleteBut I would agree that the McCarthy era and McCarthy himself are overdue for renewed study in light of newly available documentation of that era. And in light of the parallels to today.
ReplyDeleteJohn Dean recommends a new book called "The New McCarthyism: Repeating History in the War on Terrorism" and points out that Senate’s closed hearings in 1953 have been opened and says they “could not be more helpful. These hearings remind us all exactly what McCarthyism means.”
He continues, “The five recently released volumes of Senate executive session hearings are replete with literally hundreds of examples certifying the accuracy of these definitions of McCarthyism” which he defines as "The political practice of publicizing accusations of disloyalty or subversion with insufficient regard to evidence." Or: "The use of methods of investigation and accusation regarded as unfair, in order to suppress opposition."
Dean continues, “One need only sample a few witnesses to get a feel for McCarthy's browbeating tactics (which were employed by his counsel Roy Cohn as well) and why they earned him his disgrace.” Apparently, McCarthy used these closed hearings to test witness and only called the ones who did not do well to testify publicly.
There were no doubt communists working in the U.S. (e.g. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg who leaked secrets to Russia) but that fact does not excuse McCarthy’s tactics, and the climate of fear that ruined many innocent lives.
Did McCarthy really have proof that there were over 200 communists working in the State Department? Or was that charge unfounded?
I thought bringing up McCarthy on this thread was valuable because our Generals are now being attacked and it was attacking the military that really brought McCarthy down
“He had made the mistake of accusing the Secretary of the Army of espionage. In rebuttal to this, the Secretary provided evidence of the Committee's underhand tactics, citing his soldiers claims of intimidation, offers of protection and promises of promotion in exchange for false evidence.”
I’m sure I’ll be attacked by those on the right who now consider McCarthy some sort of hero and are trying to resurrect his reputation, but maybe we should ask why, all of sudden, is it so important to do that?
May I suggest that they want to render the term “McCarthyism” meaningless to blunt the use of the term when its directed at them for adopting his tactics.
AJ responds to EWO:
ReplyDeleteBut I would agree that the McCarthy era and McCarthy himself are overdue for renewed study in light of newly available documentation of that era. And in light of the parallels to today.
McCarthy was the worst thing that ever happened to anti-Communism. He didn't know anything about the matter, or care, until he decided he needed an issue to propel him into the spotlight, and he settled on searching out Communists. He decided to focus especially on the Army, and the fact that some Army dentist who had been a member of the Communist Party had been promoted; never mind that the promotion happened automatically by operation of law, and not as reward from Commie-loving brass.
Richard Nixon during his days on HUAC was critical in sniffing out deceit in Alger Hiss's testimony before that committee. Almost everyone else, including the media, totally bought Hiss's patrician and eloquent denials of Communist Party membership or relationships with known spies. But Nixon, a shrewd lawyer, noticed Hiss's answers were carefully crafted to be "perjury proof" in case certain of his denials could be disproved. Hiss would not have fallen but for both Richard Nixon, and the witness against him, Whittaker Chambers, who had run the Communist spy ring of which Hiss had been a member when he passed State Dept data to Stalin's diplomatic corps.
Both Nixon and Chambers came to reject Joseph McCarthy as a blowhard, self-aggrandizing liar and demagogue. McCarthy was a perfect foil for left-wingers to point to and insist that *ALL* concern about domestic Communists was paranoid nonsense. He was and remains an enormous gift to them.
I am very annoyed that Hollywood and George Clooney offered us yet another film about the supposed horrors of McCarthyism. That has been done ad nauseam, with endless streams of films about the supposed martyrdom of the Hollywood Ten and what not. (Who really were all Stalinists.)
The film that won't be made is the one showing that Whittaker Chambers told the truth, and which showcases the huge spying apparatus comprised of New Dealers in the FDR Administration, or the Communist scientists in the Manhattan Project who gave the atomic bomb to the world's worst tyrant. Chambers lived a fascinating life, and was excoriated by the left intelligentsia for speaking out and taking down Hiss and for identifying FDR's Asst. Secy' of Treasury,Harry Dexter White, as another agent of Stalin's. But Chambers was telling the truth, at very great personal cost.
So, while I have no use for Joseph McCarthy, I have even less use for the left-wing obsession with focusing on him to the exclusion of telling the more important story about the Communists who really did cause an enormous amount of severe damage to this nation and its interests. It is a story too many on the left still don't want to see or hear.
Zack writes: I’m sure I’ll be attacked by those on the right who now consider McCarthy some sort of hero and are trying to resurrect his reputation, but maybe we should ask why, all of sudden, is it so important to do that?
ReplyDeleteThe McCarthyism paradigm is, I agree, a useful one for looking at contemporary issues. The spirit of McCarthyism lives in places like the LGF comments section, where eliminationist and foul rhetoric about all Muslims and anyone deemed too deferential to them abounds.
But there is a flip side to that. Wahhabi Islam actually is a serious problem, just as Communist subversion in the U.S. was, notwithstanding the crude antics of Joseph McCarthy. Merely because it would be grossly immoral to "nuke all the ragheads off the face of the Earth," it does not follow that the West should not be strongly standing against thuggish, theocratic attacks on our writers, journalists and artists.
McCarthy was likened to those who hunted witches. The problem is, the witches hunted in days of yore were not real; they literally did not exist. Communist subversives did (even if McCarthy was wrong about who they were), and so do dangerous, theocratic Muslims.
drrb: Funny how the "solution" is a constant, while the "problem" is a shifting and rather trivial variable. The "problem" shifts around to something else whenever the previous one turns out to be an illusion. Can we say WMDs?
ReplyDeleteWhat I think is often missed is precisely this issue of what the problem is. Most people will say there's something wrong with the world. Think of every social ill or personal problem and put them on a spectrum from personal to socio-political. The question then becomes, how do we solve the problems?
The possible strategies to deal with these problems seem almost infinite. Maybe it'll help if we choose one end of the spectrum and move backward or forward. Therefore, you have the possibility of religious/philosopical pietism or ataraxia at the personal end of the spectrum and some form of social engineering at the socio-political end.
Yes, most people in the US will tell you that something's wrong, "out of joint," as Hamlet says. But where to start to deal with what's wrong?
In the present US political environment, you seem to have a group ideology, the neocons, who think that focusing on external threats will create some kind of ethos that will automatically solve, or at least ameliorate, many of the social ills inside the US.
You could call this the Imperial model, thinking of the way that Roman martial virtues were expected to sustain the socio-political environment, creating a top-down effect that brought about social and political order.
The opposing view--bypassing the pietistic for this posting--proposed by various liberal ideologies is that order is created by solving the social ills through various types of programs that are expected to isolate and solve the diverse sources of social disruption.
Liberal ideologies have sustained defeat and massive de-legitimization. After the failures of the welfare state, the Soviet Union, the war on poverty--every socially liberal solution must try to justify itself without being laughed off the podium. Therefore, you have crypto-liberals like the Clintons and Tony Blair.
The reason you see Democrats on the Imperial bandwagon (in various soft or hard versions) is because they don't necessarily agree with it but see it as an opportunity. They do not question the war or the threat because they realize how politically covenient it is.
You could say that their unprincipled, almost machiavellian acceptance of the imperial state will gain them one thing: power. They are living parasitically off of the war threat simply to advance their own cafeteria-style platform.
These comments are pretty open-ended--perhaps inherently so, given the problems. I suggest that what we're seeing is the destruction of the mdoern representative democratic model.
In its place, we'll see various forms of security state as societies try to balance not only privacy and security but also growing resentment from outside by those whose backs we live on to maintain our American lifestyle.
Hypatia,
ReplyDeleteThe issue that concerns the left today is McCarthyism -- not the specifics of the McCarthy era.
And why? Because McCarthyism refers to his methods, methods (unsubstantiated allegations and questioning the patriotism of anyone who disagrees) which have been adopted wholeheartedly by FOX News pundits.
Clooney was no more interested in Joe McCarthy as a person than Arthur Miller was interested in John Proctor and Rebecca Nurse.
Historians can sort out the facts of about the extent of communist infiltration in the 40s and 50s. But do you actually doubt that innocent people were hurt by McCarthy's tactics?
The McCarthyism paradigm is, I agree, a useful one for looking at contemporary issues. The spirit of McCarthyism lives in places like the LGF comments section, where eliminationist and foul rhetoric about all Muslims and anyone deemed too deferential to them abounds.
ReplyDeleteI don’t disagree with what Hypatia has said, it is true that both communist spies and Muslim terrorists were/are real threats. However, the McCarthyism we see today goes way beyond LGF comments sections – it’s much more mainstream than that and seen on FOX news all the time with Ann Coulter’s “treason party” references, to Hannity’s “pro-terrorist” and “hate America” rhetoric against anyone who questions Bush. (Some of these tactics are used by the administration as well, although a little more subtly.)
Who are these Americans that don’t want us monitoring phone calls from Osama? These are really “witches” in the sense that Hypatia used it – but I prefer the term “straw man” argument. These people really don’t exist, but increasingly administration rhetoric is aimed against them.
And what about all the Americans being accused of “dhimmitude” – just who are these Americans who want to live under Sharia law? They don’t exist either, but anyone who doesn’t gobble up the latest Mark Steyn column as gospel is guilty of it in the eyes of many far-right bloggers and their commentators.
Opposing eliminationist rhetoric does not preclude seeing terrorism as a real threat. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t take the possibility of another attack by Al Qaeda seriously, nor anyone who wants our society to be subservient to theocratic Muslims.
It’s Bush supporters who are creating the “witches” of today, and it’s they who are adopting many of McCarthy’s tactics – and the purpose is to stifle dissent and demonize the opposition. It’s very useful for them.
AJ writes: Historians can sort out the facts of about the extent of communist infiltration in the 40s and 50s. But do you actually doubt that innocent people were hurt by McCarthy's tactics?
ReplyDeleteFirst, communist infiltration began in earnest in the 30s, during the FDR Administration and continued apace into the 40s. By the 50s, however, it was largely under control because of the loyalty screening programs Truman had instituted in the late 40s. So, McCarthy began hs campaign after the worst was over, and when the problem was receding.
Second, very few people suffered much or long-term from McCarthy. McCarthy came to be despised even by many other anti-Communists, and he was humiliated by a Senate censure resolution that had the tacit support of Ike and Veep Nixon. His rampage was rather brief, and ended in disaster for him.
Third, many on the left, and certainly many Cold War historians (who tend to be predominantly left-of-center) do not use the term "McCarthyism" merely to describe the Army-McCarthy hearings and the antics of Joseph McCarthy. Marxist historians like Ellen Schrecker have insisted McCarthyism covers any anti-Communism, including that of liberal Democrats, and including Truman's loyalty screening efforts. Hers is a widely shared view in certain quarters.
I myself have many times been called a practitioner of McCarthyism for insisting on the guilt of the Rosenbergs and the pervasiveness of the Communist subversion in the 30s and 40s. It is a term that has been promiscuously and indiscriminately applied to anyone who makes the slightest criticism of people and ideas that are regarded as leftist.Calling someone who really is a Marxist a Marxist is to risk being labeled a McCarthyite. It is an epithet like "racist" that causes a suspension of thought, and immediately stigmatizes the person to whom it is applied as illegitimate.
So, I am not the most ardent supporter of resurrecting that epithet. It can be, and has been, used as recklessly as any actual McCarthyite who ever reckelssly called someone a Communist. And it has also been employed to prevent examination of the actual Communist subversion and the horrifying treasonous acts committed by leftist icons, who really did give crucial data to a murderous, vicious tyrant.
Everything about this war is easy for the chickenhawk Hanson. What has he sacrificed?
ReplyDeleteAnd you know that there is no way in hell he'd ever say those things to any of these men's faces.
Zack writes: It’s Bush supporters who are creating the “witches” of today, and it’s they who are adopting many of McCarthy’s tactics – and the purpose is to stifle dissent and demonize the opposition. It’s very useful for them.
ReplyDeleteI agree with all of that. A good deal of the problem with the anti-Communist efforts in the 40s was HUAC -- the committee was comprised of some of the dimmest bulbs in Congress, some of whom were virulently anti-Semitic and just plain stupid, basically populists all -- today they'd be Hannity and O'Reilly fans. Oddly and ironically, that didn't start to change until Richard Nixon joined HUAC -- whatever else can be said about Nixon, few ever claimed he was stupid. He took charge and handled HUAC intelligently, which is how Hiss fell.
But prior thereto, the serious and actual danger of Communists, in the hands of HUAC, was being approached by people who were on intellectual par with Sean Hannity. Muslim theocrats are a problem, but the clowns at Fox news are not the ones to discuss it intelligently or deal with it properly. Just as some of yesteryear's HUAC members thought anyone who supported the New Deal was a Red, the Hannitys think anyone who opposes George Bush -- and virtually all Democrats -- loves Osama.
I am very annoyed that Hollywood and George Clooney offered us yet another film about the supposed horrors of McCarthyism.
ReplyDeleteI had a completely different take on the movie than Hypatia, and I thought it was a lot more about the media and Murrow than it was about McCarthy.
If you watch the companion piece to the DVD, McCarthy is barely mentioned. It was about a TV show that for the first time was putting on a “controversial” show, and “taking a side” on an issue.
I think this film raises many questions about the media and its role today in society, and it’s relationship to “controversial” political matter, as it is covered by the news. We’ve devoted a lot of time here to criticizing the media, and the movie gives a glimpse on what happens when the powerful are challenged. “See it Now” was cancelled because of this.
McCarthy is there to show the underlying climate of fear – experienced by many people who had nothing to do with communism. The show (See it Now) used footage of McCarthy and his own words against him – that’s what made it so powerful – and McCarthy’s own words made people turn against him.
The underlying theme of the film was “standing up to powerful people because it was the right thing to do.” It’s about “questioning authority.”
Isn’t that what Glenn’s blog is all about? The key point that George Clooney makes is “it’s your patriotic duty to question authority.”
That sounds like a statement that I expect to find in Glenn’s new book.
From Kevin Phillips' essay in The Nation:
ReplyDeleteThe federal judiciary is the arena in which the battles most critical to incipient theocrats will be fought out judge by judge, court by court. Signs of their anxiety to control the federal judiciary burst into view in an early 2005 meeting at which conservative evangelical leaders were addressed by Tom DeLay and Senate majority leader Bill Frist. The focus of the strategy session was how to strip funding or jurisdiction from federal courts, or even eliminate them. James Dobson of the Colorado-based Focus on the Family named one target: the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. "Very few people know this, that the Congress can simply disenfranchise a court," Dobson commented. "All they have to do is say the 9th Circuit doesn't exist anymore, and it's gone." A spokesman for Frist said he did not agree with the idea of defunding courts or shutting them down, but DeLay, who had once said, "We set up the courts. We can unset the courts," declined to comment.
General Victor "Jessup" David Hanson,
ReplyDeleteSo many asshats on the right credit Orwell with saying that crap about rough men with guns on walls. In point of fact, Saddam was such a rough man, keeping Iraq relatively free of the sectarian violence we are witnessing now. In any case, it was a fictional Col. in a play written by an arch- liberal who wrote those words.
"Did George Orwell ever say: “People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf?” Or: “We sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would harm us?”
Not exactly. But he did make comments that were along similar lines. In his essay on Rudyard Kipling (1942), Orwell wrote: “[Kipling] sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilised, are there to guard and feed them.” And in his ‘Notes on Nationalism’ (1945) he wrote: “Those who “abjure” violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” Where the rough men crept in is anyone’s guess."
I am very annoyed that Hollywood and George Clooney offered us yet another film about the supposed horrors of McCarthyism.
ReplyDeleteYou are joking, right?
Were you even alive during the 50s? I didn't think so.
First, communist infiltration began in earnest in the 30s, during the FDR Administration and continued apace into the 40s. By the 50s, however, it was largely under control because of the loyalty screening programs Truman had instituted in the late 40s. So, McCarthy began hs campaign after the worst was over, and when the problem was receding.
ReplyDeleteYou are insane. Put your tin foil hat back on and visit the John Birch Society.
vermontraccoon said...
ReplyDeleteGris Lobo:
Thanks for posting
Thanks, I did miss your other post to me. I'm sorry I missed it. I'm not able to post as often or regularly as I'd like but try to as often as I can.
vermontraccoon said...
ReplyDelete"Quotations: Veit Nam 1953-1970" that is eerily prescient to the point where I dread picking it up but can't seem to ignore it.
It is very eery how much is the same despite attempts by the Bush admin to deny the simularities. For me it has been like being in a time warp.
Another excellent book on what happened in Viet Nam, which I also recommended to Eyes Wide Open is "A Bright Shining Lie" by Neil Sheehan I believe. It is an older book also so will probably be available only in used book stores or at yard sales. Because I was too close to the trees to be able to see the forest I really wasn't aware myself of the full picture of what was going in Viet Nam until I read this book about five or six years ago. Then a lot of things I had seen and some that I had participated in suddenly clicked and hit me like a real ton of bricks.
"Ugly American":
ReplyDeleteI have argued that these generals disputes with Rumsfeld are political."
You misspelled "asserted". These generals are harldy of a political sort, nor have you given any evidence of any such motivation. Their criticisms are of a subtantive nature and not a political one.
Care to actually back your rather ludicrous statement up? Or you just gonna spout the pap the His Emanence Limgaugh told you is "true"?
Cheers,
ReplyDelete1) Dr. Hanson is a well published military historian of international repute.
Hanson is a moron who knows a little (very little) about Greek History, almost nothing about anything else and can bloviate and froth for hours without introducing any facts.
"witches literally did not exist".
ReplyDeleteThat isn't strictly true. There were women who believed themselves to be witches, "rode" broomsticks (use your imagination), took fly agaric, etc. And "black magic" was practiced, though not just by women. It was just far less prevalent than witchhunters were led, by those who had much more common motives for bringing about the persecution of a person, to believe.
Answer the question. Will you back up your statements up?
ReplyDelete"Ugly American":
I have argued that these generals disputes with Rumsfeld are political."
These generals are harldy of a political sort, nor have you given any evidence of any such motivation. Their criticisms are of a subtantive nature and not a political one.
Care to actually back your rather ludicrous statement up? Or you just gonna spout the pap the His Emanence Limgaugh told you is "true"?
Cheers,
"failures of the welfare state,"
ReplyDeleteWhat failures? This is extremely nonspecific, and is assuming an unproved (and false) conclusion. How exactly have Social Security, Medicare, and unemployment insurance "failed"? Answer: they haven't. Try again.
"the Soviet Union,"
Not exactly "liberal", with its authoritarian, imperialist philosophy.
"the war on poverty-"
Tremendous success -- look up the actual poverty numbers over the years if you don't believe me.
This entire clause is a triumph of spin over reality -- discrediting its author, unfortunately.
I love this one from Mike Huben's Libertarianism in One Lesson. It's in the political debate strategy category.
ReplyDelete"Private ownership is the cure for all problems, despite the historical record of privately owned states such as Nazi Germany, Czarist and Stalinist Russia, and Maoist China."
It's completely true and factually correct and guaranteed to make their heads explode.
Why is it OK to smear the Generals, but it's not OK to talk about the warnings the WH was given that the war was illegal?
ReplyDeleteThis means that the White House can't say that it was an "honest mistake." The Generals are right.
Glenn: "When people like this feel weak and small, they need to lash out, to re-establish their warrior credentials."
ReplyDeleteYes, we should look into this some more. What ideas do you have, or should we focuse on something else?