Wednesday, May 24, 2006

Any differences between Democrats in 2003 and today?

(updated below)

Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee yesterday essentially assured that President Bush's nominee to head the CIA, Gen. Michael Hayden, would not only be confirmed by the full Senate, but confirmed overwhelmingly. That's because a majority of the Democratic Committee members (along with, needless to say, all of the Committee Republicans) voted in favor of confirming Gen. Hayden:

The Senate Intelligence Committee strongly endorsed Gen. Michael V. Hayden on Tuesday to be the next director of the Central Intelligence Agency, with all but three members, all Democrats, voting to send General Hayden's nomination to the Senate floor.

The panel's 12-to-3 vote virtually guarantees that General Hayden will win confirmation by the full Senate, which is likely to vote on his selection before the end of the week.

Four committee Democrats joined all eight Republican members in endorsing the general. Senator Pat Roberts, Republican of Kansas and the panel's chairman, called General Hayden "a proven leader and a supremely qualified intelligence professional."

The committee's vice chairman, John D. Rockefeller IV, Democrat of West Virginia, said General Hayden had shown "the necessary independence that is essential to restoring the C.I.A.'s credibility and stature."

Given the similarities, it sounds like Pat Roberts and John Rockefeller drafted their statements together, which is nice. Four Democrats -- Feinstein, Rockefeller, Levin and Mikulski -- voted for Hayden and then praised him lavishly. Three Democrats -- Feingold, Wyden and Bayh -- voted against him.

Although it's hardly surprising, this result is still rather extraordinary. Gen. Hayden ought to have been seen as the most defiant and inflammatory nominee possible for the President to have made. He was, after all, the Director of the NSA at the time it implemented its illegal warrantless eavesdropping program as well as its massive data-collection schemes, and he is a True Believer in the theories of presidential power which hold that the President has the right to violate the law. And he wasn't nominated to be the Agriculture Secretary, but the Director of the CIA -- probably the very worst position you would want someone to occupy with that history of surveillance lawbreaking and that system of beliefs regarding the rule of law.

But no matter. Thanks to the generous and always-accommodating Senate Democrats, this nomination will be trouble-free for the President. This series of events led John Cole yesterday to make this insightful observation:

While I miss not spending as much time reading blogs, writing as many posts, and commenting on other blogs, stepping back from it all has allowed for some clarity regarding the current political system. When I was immersed in blogs, I felt that the Democrats were having some success blocking the current administration, but when I look back, I was just fooled by the current game. The Hayden nomination is a perfect example.

When he was nominated, a few people had fits, a chorus of echoes emerged, and then there appeared to be a popular effort to block his nomination. And then time went by, and now it looks increasingly like he will be confirmed, as everyone has moved on to something else- “Look- a Rabbit!”- as everyone gets all worked up about the FBI raiding Rep. Jefferson’s office or whatever the issue du jour might be.

And if you look back on things, that is how it has been since the beginning of this administration- they do what they want, Democrats throw up an opposition that is of varying degrees of tepidness (did I just make that word up?), a few ‘maverick’ Republicans cross lines (briefly), and then the administration gets what they want.

Rinse and Repeat. . . . In short, while immersed in the blogosphere, you get the feeling that the political climate is changing, but if you step back and look at the big picture, it looks much more like the SSDD.

It is very hard to argue with that. There was already ample grounds for attacking the Hayden nomination when it was announced, and then, right in the middle of it, an all new, highly controversial, likely illegal NSA program was revealed for which he was responsible. But that was barely a speed bump in the harmonious, smooth sailing of his confirmation.

For all the talk of the weakened and impotent presidency and the split among Republicans, it is still virtually always the case that the President gets what he wants, and does so without much difficulty. The few times he fails to -- Harriet Miers, the Dubai Port deal, anti-torture legislation -- is because Republicans, not Democrats, take a stand against the White House.

But by and large, what happened yesterday with Gen. Hayden's nomination is exactly what would have happened in 2002 and 2003. Democrats are afraid to challenge the President due to their fear -- always due to their fear -- that they will be depicted as mean, obstructionist and weak on national security. And so, even with an unbelievably weakened President, and even with regard to the most consequential issues -- and can one doubt that installing Gen. Hayden as CIA Director is consequential? -- Democrats back away from fights, take no clear position, divide against each other, and stand up for exactly nothing.

It is quite possible that Democrats would not have been able to stop Gen. Hayden's nomination. It is true that they are still in the minority and thus are limited in what they can achieve legislatively. But that's really irrelevant. Gen. Hayden is a symbol and one of the chief instruments and advocates of the administration's lawlessness. He refused to say in his testimony even whether he would even comply with the law. Opposing his nomination is both compelled by a principled belief in the rule of law as well as justified by the important political opportunity to highlight this administration's lawbreaking. Sen. Feingold, as usual, shows how this works:

The Democrats who voted against the nomination were Russell D. Feingold of Wisconsin, Ron Wyden of Oregon and Evan Bayh of Indiana. Each cited concerns about General Hayden's role in a controversial domestic surveillance program he ran while head of the National Security Agency.

"I am not convinced that the nominee respects the rule of law and Congress's oversight responsibilities," Mr. Feingold said.

In other words, there are serious questions about whether Gen. Hayden will comply with the law and whether he believes in the rule of law, so perhaps it's not a good idea to install him as CIA Director. Is there some reason Democrats were afraid to make that clear, straightforward, critically important point?

Yet again, Senate Democrats show that they have no more concern for the rule of law and for the excesses of this administration than Senate Republicans do. Due to their really pitiful passivity, they are every bit as much to blame for the excesses and abuses of the administration as the compliant Republicans are.

I've written before that, at least to me, the principal if not exclusive benefit of the Democrats taking over one or both of the Congressional houses in November is that it will impose some checks and limitations on the behavior of the administration and, specifically, will finally result in meaningful investigations into what has happened in our country and to our government over the last five years. But I have serious doubts about whether that would really happen.

After November, 2006, the presidential elections are not far away. The same paralyzing, stagnating, fatally passive Democratic voices who always counsel against standing up to the administration aren't going anywhere. It is not hard to imagine what they will be saying:

President Bush is a lame duck who is out in 2008, and so it doesn't matter what he got away with or what he did. Conducting investigations into these intelligence and ”anti-terrorist” scandals will be depicted as obstructionist and weak on national security, and will jeopardize our chances to re-take the White House and will cost us House and Senate seats. It is best to look forward, not to the past, and not be seen as conducting vendettas against the lame duck President. What matters is taking the White House in 2008 and so there is no reason to attack the President on these matters of the past.

Is there any doubt that the likes of Senators Feinstein, Rockefeller, Levin, etc. are going to follow that thinking, as they always do? I don't see how that can be doubted. I think Congressional Democrats will be more cautious and passive, not less so, if they take over one of the Congressional houses in 2006. People who operate from a place of fear and excess caution become even more timid and fearful when they have something to lose. The Democratic Congressional Chairs are going to be desperate not to lose that newfound power, and they will be very, very vulnerable to the whiny whispers of the consultant class that they should not spend their time and energy investigating this administration or vigorously opposing them on national security matters.

John Cole is absolutely right that Democrats have managed to change virtually nothing as a result of the collapse of the Bush presidency. That's because they think the same and behave the same as they did when they were getting pushed around by Bush as a highly popular “war president.” As a result, there is no reason to believe they will be any better than they are now (and have been for the past four years) if and when they take over one or both Congressional Houses. One could make a compelling case that they will be even worse.

UPDATE: Digby elaborates on several of the issues in this post and, in doing so, says this:

Glenn thinks that here in our blogospheric bubble it appears that things are changing when they aren't. I have to disagree a bit with that. It's true that the blogospheric bubble often gives the false impression that there is more momentum on our side than there actually is. I suspect that true inside any movement or campaign where you spend most of your time with fellow travellers. But that doesn't mean things aren't changing. We are now a factor. They may hate us, fear us and dismiss us, but we're here and we aren't going anywhere. (Say it loud, I'm blog and I'm proud!)

My reference (really, John Cole's reference) to the "blogospheric bubble" was based on the fact that events seem to change more radically than they really do if one is in the blogosphere and closely following every small event. If one read only the blogosphere, one would think that the Bush presidency is devoid of any residual power, but the Democrats' unwillingness to fight against the Hayden nominee illustrates that things have changed far, far less than one might think.

But I agree entirely with Digby about the blogosphere's impact and especially its potential to develop and exert much more influence. In fact, the only reason why I believe that things can change fundamentally is because of new mechanisms like the blogosphere which enable citizens to communicate directly with one another -- and work in concert with one another -- without having to rely upon the corrupt, soul-draining media and Beltway political institutions. If meaningful change is going to occur -- and I believe it will -- it will be because Americans find ways collectively to exert sufficient pressure to demand that they change -- not because our current broken institutions, including the Democratic Party, are suddenly going to be cleansed and transformed on their own.

214 comments:

  1. Anonymous11:40 AM

    Why don't you have any information about the book tour on your website or Working Assets Publishing? What are the details for the June 5 Univ. Florida appearance, please? Thanks.

    Oh, and On Topic-- I'm all done writing and calling my legislative reps. to take action on anything of importance. Clearly, it just doesn't matter. You know what really matters? Elections matter!

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  2. Anonymous11:40 AM

    The first time I read the government's briefs and public statements in the "Padilla" case, together with the almost complete lack of response, I was convinced that we were witnessing the formal destruction of the Constitution as anything other any a piece of paper to be occasinally trotted out for ritual veneration. With Hayden and everything else we now know, it is quite clear that the process of that destruction is all but irreversible. The neo-cons always like to relate everything to Munich in 1938, but I sometimes wonder if this is what the summer of 1914, or perhaps the last days of June 1934, felt like.

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  3. Well, that ruined my whole day! I just wish that I could disagree.

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  4. The one bright spot that we can note is that any seats that do turn Dem in the fall will be occupied by people who are not yet crippled by their incumbency. It might be more refreshing than you think!

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  5. Anonymous11:48 AM

    Sen. Feinstein has a history of supporting the expansion of CALEA, was a staunch supporter of the Clipper chip, and was outspoken in her support for former FBI director Louis Freeh's attempts to make key escrow the law of the land when it came to cryptography. I'm not surprised in the least to see her vote in support of Hayden.

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  6. Anonymous11:49 AM

    GG - Four Democrats -Feinstein, Rockefeller, Levin and Mikulski -- voted for Hayden and then praised him lavishly.

    We don't call them Democrats, Glenn. They are no more Democrats than Joe Lieberman is, or Zell Miller was. Some call them DINOs. Others just call them moles. Like some people (not mentioning any names, don't have to) are still convinced FDR's administration was riddled with Soviet moles. The Democratic party is riddled with Republican moles. To use the vernacular, we are uncovering and liquidating them as fast as we can, at the polls.

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  7. Anonymous11:53 AM

    DiFi has lost my vote in the primary and (assuming she goes into the general election, which seems probable) in November as well. I don't wnat to call her clueless, because I don't think she is, but there's a serious disconnect there.

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  8. That is, even if they ultimately think Hayden is better than the alternatives, they should vote against him in protest over the illegal spying, with the knowledge that he will be confirmed anyway.)

    The only way someone can think this is if they really don't believe that the administration's lawbreaking theories and conduct are really all that bothersome.

    I think you're right that some of them don't think those things are really a big deal and therefore don't hold any of that against Hayden. But I think many of them who are bothered by that lawbreaking will still vote for Hayden because they are afraid to make an issue of the lawbreaking for fear of being depicted as a Friend of the Terrorist. Anyone who fears a 29% President can never, ever contribute anything of value in political office.

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  9. I think Congressional Democrats will be more cautious and passive, not less so, if they take over one of the Congressional houses in 2006.

    Johnathon Turley described Congress as “comatose” the other night – it’s hard to become more passive than that.

    I’m not sure just how the Democrats will act, but one thing is sure, the Republicans will become even more aggressive – the weaker they become the nastier they’ll get. It’s already happening.

    It is a sign of Republican weakness this time. They should not have to be shoring up their base with this tired old stuff. But their racist base is restive, looking for a fight, wanting to kick someone's ass to account for their own feelings of impotence in a complicated world. (Same old shit.) The leadership knows it is a losing long term strategy but they're left with nothing else.

    That’s from Digby’s post on Lou “we’re at war with Mexico” Dobbs and his use of racist material.

    The Republicans are really getting desperate, and cable television is filled with open racism and fear-mongering to rally the base. On Fox, a paid shill for the oil companies is comparing Gore’s movie on global warming to Nazi propaganda. And over on CNN, Glenn “Mexico is a dirtbag country” Beck is lecturing Americans that they are no longer to use the terms “racist, hate-mongering” and “McCarthyism” because those terms are now, “meaningless.”

    Concurring with him was William Donahue, whose tirades at “Christian” rallies are the very definition of “hate-mongering.” And I’m sure that Morton Kondracke would agree too because he’s concluded that Bush hatred is a threat to national security as he lashes out at prominent Democrats and the media.

    Yes, the base is looking for a fight, and I’m just wondering since the rhetoric is about as heated as it can get already, if we are about to see some real violence done to the objects of their hatred and fear.

    The more impotent they feel, the stronger the need to lash out – and as the more their fearless leader fails, the uglier it will get. It’s bad now, but about to get a lot worse. They are whipping up the base into a frenzy, but at some point they may no longer control the hateful, racist, frightened “mob” they’ve created.

    I

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  10. Anonymous11:56 AM

    There is only one solutions.
    New blood and new faces in the Democratic Party.
    Every new Democrat congressmen elected this cycle is a chance to refresh and renew the party. I especially like the number of former marines and army folk who a running under our ticket in 2006.

    Also Ned Lamont's attempt to unseat a sitting Democrat becomes very very important. Until the elected Dems feel that they need to please the party memebers they will continue to bow down to Republicans

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  11. Anonymous11:59 AM

    To paraphrase the unitary simpleton who continues to run the country (into the ground): Either you're for the Constitution or you're against it.

    On the committee, the vote was four (Feingold, Wyden and Bayh).

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  12. I've come to hate the dems worse the the repubs. The repubs are doing what one would expect, but the dems have completely sold out their base, turned on them even, in order to continue to hold onto their seats. The sad, despicable fact is, in a perfect world, this should cause them to lose their seats; but as the whole msm establishment marginalizes the left, carries the water of right-wing narratives, and generally dismisses the thoughts and opinions of over half the country, dem pols see playing to the repub base as essential to survival.

    A Feingold or Gore run for the presidency could turn this around. Hit, hit, hit the truth day in and day out, never let them distract from what is important, call them(msm) on every lie, never let a smear go unanswered, and most of all, if there is some serious dirt on the repub opponents, don't hesitate to go into full attack mode. Give 'em a taste of their own medicine. Don't let msm poo poo or ignore it either. Keep hitting people over the head with it until it can't help but gain traction,(with help from blogs)This delicate aversion to attack politics has to end here and now. It doesn't have to stoop to the level of the Swift-liars. The truth is bad enough.

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  13. Anonymous12:04 PM

    One could make a compelling case that [Congressional Democrats] will be even worse.


    I don't see how they could be and still hold onto their seats in the House, given the mood of some of their constituents. Senators usually have more leeway than House members when it comes to ignoring the wishes of their constituents, for a variety of reasons. Please correct me if I am wrong. There is much to like about a "throw all the bums out" approach, but cui bono? Not the Greens or Naderites. Not the Socialists. The Socialists have a better chance than the [G]libertarians or the Constitution party. Hell, the Prohibition Party does. No, the only party who benefits from a "spoiler" manuever this time are the Republicans.

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  14. If Levin believes that a Hayden appointment might make a wag-the-dog war with Iran somewhat less likely, that changes the calculus a bit, and Clemons (who was influential on the filibuster of the John Bolton nomination) seems to imply that that is the case.

    We're talking about being Director of the CIA. The only way you could support a nominee to be in that position is who has the history and defense of lawbreaking which Hayden has is if you don't really think that the lawbreaking is serious. Why do you think Bush and Cheney want him as CIA Director? Because he's going to buck their agenda and refuse to play Good Solider. They have worked with him for the last five years and are obviously quite content with his loyalty and dedication to The Cause.

    And, even if you're right, Levin could still oppose the nomination and be assured that it would be approved anyway. Levin's views don't actually matter. He's in the minority under an administration and a Republican Party that couldn't care less what Democrats think. Opposition to this nomination would be a way of making the case to Americans of how lawless this administration is, forcing the administration to spend political capital on this fight, and showing Americans that Democrats can take a stand for something.

    I'd love to hear what possible benefit Democrats get by passively laying down - yet again - while the administration gets its way with what ought to have been - for painfully obvious reasons - a highly controversial nominee.

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  15. Anonymous12:08 PM

    I may have to concur with m.a.'s observation. There are more levels of consideration here than just the legal aspects. Hayden is not my first choice. Damn few Democrats currently in office are either, but there are other factors to consider besides the legal issues, which by their very nature will be ground out slowly no matter who gets this job.

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  16. Anonymous12:08 PM

    "I think Congressional Democrats will be more cautious and passive, not less so, if they take over one of the Congressional houses in 2006."

    Sadly, I agree with you.

    I don't even have the energy to call my Senator and bitch at her, yet again, for voting against the will of her own voters and her own party. What's the freaking point? If Feinstein could disregard her 90%-anti-war constituent contacts in 2003 and vote yes on Bush's invasion (90% anti-war being her own approximation of the letters and emails she was receiving), she can certainly continue to disregard us constituents on something as silly and inconsequential as warrantless spying on Americans. What the hell does she care what we think? We're just constituents, is all.

    At this point, I think the only thing that can affect accomodationist Dems is to remove them from office. Sadly, Feinstein's running basically unopposed here in CA (the primary challenge she's facing is a token one, and god forbid Dem voters in this state could ever be roused out of their slumber enough to vote for a [gasp!] Green Party member). So... six more years of Feinstein, coming up!

    Sorry, America.

    Meanwhile, we do have a very good chance to take out Rep. Jane ("the NSA program is vital and necessary") Harman in just two weeks time!

    Please support the progressive Democrat challenging Blue Dog Jane in the primary: Marcy Winograd.

    Election day is June 6th. To learn more about Marcy, and to see how you can help, visit her website at:

    www.winogradforcongress.com

    Peace,

    Patrick Meighan
    Venice, CA

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  17. There is a story (true or not I have no idea) that if a baby elephant is tied up with heavy rope when it is young, it learns it can't escape and when it is an adult it can be restrained with a mere clothesline. That seems to be the operative principle here. Republicans have not been so vulnerable in years and the public is eager for and receptive to Democrats willing to stand for something, but they won't do it. They have bought into the Republican myth that the public is overwhelmingly conservative and supports only right wing 'values', when the reality is that people just want leaders willing to state their values plainly and stand up for them even at the risk of losing.

    Being complicit in this way now will greatly hinder the Democrats later if they should decide to take action against the administration. In the same way Democrats have been attacked for being for the war before they were against it, rolling over and voting with the Republicans rather than voting no for the record even if they will be outvoted removes any standing they might have to later criticize the adminstrations actions.

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  18. The Democrats don't have to change anything about the Bush presidency, it is imploding on it's own without anybody's help.

    As for Hayden, while I have some misgivings, I listened to some of the hearings and he did not seem that wingnuttish to me. And the fact is that he is at least an upgrade over Goss who was nothing but a political hack. While he may not have been an ideal choice, he is probably the most qualified nominee we were going to get from Bush.

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  19. Anonymous12:13 PM

    Up on the hill, they're all part of the same club. It's so gauche to CARE so strongly about politics. It's all among friends after all.

    The politicians rule the country, and the sooner you naive, so-called "activists" get that through your head, the sooner we can all get back to sleep.

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  20. Anonymous12:14 PM

    Remember Rockefeller is the one that wrote that handwritten letter to the VP saying he was not comfortable with the NSA program.... but couldn't consult anyone about it because it was super duper important secret - well now I guess he got to consult someone and they said it was okay.

    Please, anybody, I need details as I would like to attend the booksigning at University of Florida -

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  21. Anonymous12:16 PM

    GG - And, even if you're right, Levin could still oppose the nomination and be assured that it would be approved anyway. Levin's views don't actually matter. He's in the minority under an administration and a Republican Party that couldn't care less what Democrats think. Opposition to this nomination would be a way of making the case to Americans of how lawless this administration is, forcing the administration to spend political capital on this fight, and showing Americans that Democrats can take a stand for something.

    I'd love to hear what possible benefit Democrats get by passively laying down - yet again - while the administration gets its way with what ought to have been - for painfully obvious reasons - a highly controversial nominee.


    This is an excellent question and one we have all been asking ourselves. Is Levin's senate seat secure, or is it threatened. If it isn't, you have a point. Perhaps someone over at MyDD or DKos might be able to verify this, but I suspect in some cases, the wrong move at the wrong time might may threaten a Democrat's seat at a time when we are desperately trying to gain them, not lose them. It's just speculation. I aslo don't think much of most of the people we have representing us in either party. They are all their because of corporate money. Public financing of elections is one of the election reforms needed. The wingnuts can bitch all they want but the rest of the world has already figured this all out. Health, education, elections, and now, even energy. private is for privateers, and privateers are just pirates with a commission.

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  22. Anonymous12:20 PM

    No great change. Oy. Pathetic.

    Um. What happened to the great showdown and debate on security?

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  23. Anonymous12:24 PM

    The Democratic establishment seems to be fiddling while our constitution is burning.

    The Hayden Confirmation will be yet another nail in the coffin of American Democracy.

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  24. Anonymous12:25 PM

    Patrick Meighan said...

    Sadly, I agree with you.

    I don't even have the energy to call my Senator and bitch at her, yet again, for voting against the will of her own voters and her own party. What's the freaking point? If Feinstein could disregard her 90%-anti-war constituent contacts in 2003 and vote yes on Bush's invasion (90% anti-war being her own approximation of the letters and emails she was receiving), she can certainly continue to disregard us constituents on something as silly and inconsequential as warrantless spying on Americans. What the hell does she care what we think? We're just constituents, is all.


    DiFi is a particularly odius and egregious example of hypocrisy. She is an strong advocate of gun control who has a concealed carry permit because of the Dan White incident. That was many years ago, he's dead, and he wasn't gunning for her in the first place. This is not the place to go into my views on gun control, suffice it to say that I take Wyatt Earp's view on gun control, as he was the first gun control advocate in this country. I just can't stand her hypocrisy.

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  25. Anonymous12:25 PM

    Then help us!

    Tell us why you think the democrats are so spineless in attacking Bush, his cohorts, his lying. Would you or I do any different if placed in that office? Is that what we need, is to get shit kicking people to run for office? But most Americans are so non-combative when it comes to politics. Why are we lying down so easily?

    There should have been riots in 2002 when the Supreme Court elected Bush. There was nothing. Why?
    Why? Is our country going to go down because the '60s kids don't care about politics? Tell us, what is wrong and what can we do about it?

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  26. Anonymous12:36 PM

    DiFi from DKosopedia

    Partially due to the killings of Moscone and Milk, Feinstein remains an ardent supporter of gun control. Even though many believe that the assault weapons ban she helped push through Congress and the White House played a major factor in the Republicans 1994 takeover of Congress, she continues to press for the ban to be renewed this year.

    Feinstein is a strong proponent of gun control, yet is known to have carried concealed handguns herself with a normally nearly impossible to obtain California carry permit - few people, other than politicians and celebrities, are able to obtain California CCW permits. At one time, she was the only person in San Francisco to possess a concealed carry permit.

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  27. but as the whole msm establishment marginalizes the left, carries the water of right-wing narratives, and generally dismisses the thoughts and opinions of over half the country

    I'm reading "Lapdogs" while waiting for Glenn's book to show up and it seems clear to me that the tone of coverage we're getting is a big part of the problem. (Clearly our educational system has also failed us, otherwise why would 65% of Americans no longer have a clue as to WHY we fought the American Revolution). In addition to writing your representatives, I would also recommend that effort should be made to hold media accountable as well. Media Matters

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  28. Anonymous12:50 PM

    Democrats are afraid to challenge the President due to their fear -- always due to their fear -- that they will be depicted as mean, obstructionist and weak on national security.

    Glenn,
    At some point you simply must consider the possibility that a great many Democratic pols agree with the idea of an unrestrained executive, do not particularly care about privacy (other than their own), do not have a problem with waging agressive wars, etc.

    They might not simply be timid.

    They might be vile.

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  29. Anonymous12:54 PM

    The will of the people is always to have a strong leader to protect them. The majority of people support a monarch. Always have, always will.

    The whole point of the Constitution was to prevent the tyrrany of the majority installing a monarch on the American throne. It's worked for over two-hundred years, but the majority is beginning to rise up against the tyranny of the framers. The majority of people, as represented by the major media outlets, want leaders unencumbered by the rule of law. The Constitution is supposed to make it illegal for the narrow majority to override it, but that only holds as long as the people believe in it.

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  30. Anonymous1:02 PM

    Dems are just not as organized (or militarized) as the Republicans. But then the GOP isn't quite as organized as the Nazis...

    FAIR

    NATIONAL DAY OF OUT(R)AGE


    SaveAccess.org, a national coalition of community media organizations and individuals, is coordinating a nationwide day of protests with actions taking place in New York City, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco on Wednesday, May 24th.

    FAIR is helping to organize the New York City protest.
    Join us. Make your voice heard.

    Wednesday, May 24th
    at the Verizon World Headquarters
    140 West Street (at Vesey Street).

    12:30-1:30pm (Pre-assemble at 12:15pm)
    A/C/E/2/3 trains to Chambers St.
    www.saveaccess.org/protest
    (Times and locations of other nationwide actions listed below)

    We are protesting:
    1) Telco-driven congressional legislation (HR 5252 and S.2686) that endangers public access centers and channels, threatens to red-line communities, and undermines an open internet by not protecting net neutrality.

    We need to stop these bills in their current form -- we need more protections.

    2) Telco collusion with the NSA to illegally violate the privacy of tens of millions of Americans.

    We need to demand an investigation and enforcement of the law.

    3) The Telco campaign to buyoff statehouse and congressional representatives around the country to push their legislation through.

    We need real campaign finance reform and political transparency.

    4) The Telco policy of using “astroturf” groups to push their deceptions on the public.

    We need to expose these campaigns for what they are -- corporate propaganda.

    5) The mergers and takeovers within in the Telco industry that have resulted in the loss of tens of thousands of jobs.

    We need to stop the AT&T - BellSouth merger until there is accountability and thorough anti-trust reviews.

    Other Day Of Out(r)age actions across the country include:

    Boston
    Rally: 1:30 – 2:00 pm In front of the Massachusetts State House, Beacon Street

    Press Conference: 2:00 – 3:30 pm The Grand Staircase at the Massachusetts State House

    URL: www.acmeboston.org (Action Coalition for Media Education, Boston Chapter)

    Chicago
    The Event: "AT&T: Bringing Us To Tiers"

    The Place: Outside the AT&T / SBC building, at the intersection of Congress Parkway and South Federal Street in downtown Chicago (just a block south of the Library / State and Van Buren CTA station, immediately west of the Harold Washington Library Center)

    Date/Time: Wednesday, May 24, 4pm - 6pm

    San Francisco
    Two Community Actions hosted by Media Alliance

    12 Noon at AT&T Park
    Join media advocates & community activists out front of the SF Giants game for some activist style theatrical sports. Help make the point that consumers won't play ball with AT&T and other Telcos that play ball with the NSA.

    4:00pm - 6:00pm at AT&T's main San Francisco headquarters 666 Folsom Street - between 2nd & 3rd

    More info at: http://saveaccess.org/protest

    Members of the SaveAccess.org Coalition include:

    Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting (FAIR), NYC Grassroots Media Coalition, Paper Tiger TV, Center for Digital Democracy, Free Press, Association for Community Networking, Action Coalition for Media Education, Chicago Media Action, Media Alliance, Media Tank, CCTV-Cambridge and the Center for Media & Democracy

    ReplyDelete
  31. Anonymous1:05 PM

    The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.

    H. L. Mencken

    ReplyDelete
  32. davidbyron:
    Well let me not exactly defend the Democrats but make an argument that they are better than the Republicans.

    That's like a who's-taller-than-Mickey-Rooney contest. You can still be very short and win.

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  33. Anonymous1:16 PM

    Like you said, Glenn, the Democrats are all a bunch of mealy-mouth sissies that are not capable of filling laura bushes bra.

    I agree with your comment today that we should have all supported Ralph Nader in 2000 and that convincing Zeb Miller to stay in the party would have been the salvation of us all.

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  34. Anonymous1:16 PM

    Glenn--probably you've seen this, but I've not seen anything about it. (I know, like you need any more on it.)

    Congressman Mike Capuano (MA-08) has a nice collection of letters from local constitutional scholars about the NSA wiretapping.

    In order to lighten everyone's day: it's a political rule of thumb that minority parties are much more inflammatory while out of power than they behave when they finally do get power.

    ReplyDelete
  35. I predicted last year (2005) that there would be no net change in the make-up of either House of Congress.

    i still stand by that assertion.

    ReplyDelete
  36. (Dems) might not simply be timid.
    They might be vile.
    12:50 PM


    is it too Chomskyian of me to note that, except on the margins, the Dumbocraps are not very different from the Pukes, especially where economics, trade, and foreign policy are concerned?

    there is precious little to choose between Clinton's NAFTA and Bush's CAFTA, is there?

    ReplyDelete
  37. Anonymous1:24 PM

    I have placed comments on this site several times now but never got the feeling that anybody was listening. I'm going to try one more time.

    The problem with this administration that has occupied Washington and the American psyche for all of these years is that it (This Administration)has a collective DIRTY CHARACTER! Where such a character reins, INTEGRITY evaporates.

    The American psyche has developed what I call the "Rodney Dangerfield Syndrome".

    The insightful Mr Dangerfield quipped on one of the talk shows that: "My wife wanted me to take my Viagra with Prune Juice. I did, but then I couln't tell if I was COMING OR GOING"! An environment devoid of integrity will do that.

    Integity should always be the center of the radar because everything moving out from that center, and, everything attracted to it will be thusly influenced.

    You Democrats are supposed to be the epidome of integrity. In large part, the majority of you have been the larger contributors to the Syndrome I mentioned above.I coined a phrase of sorts about the party currently in power: "R--- are incapable of telling the truth"! I assure you, there is a huge difference between, "they all lie", and that phrase.

    To get this country back on the right track, to clear up the American psyche and to win this fall, you must voiciferously renounce everything this administration stands for, TODAY.
    You know what you have to say!!

    I know at least one of you read this blog on which I'm commenting. (He's one of the three that didn't vote to confirm Gen. Hayden.

    You need to show us that YOU know if you're coming or going!

    ReplyDelete
  38. Anonymous1:29 PM

    Dianne Feinstein is my rep. Everytime I write her about an issue, I get a polite brushoff. She is useless, and as I have said before, the base of both these parties are being taken for a ride. Why do you keep putting your hope in them? Repubs and dems are bought and paid for, period. They do not represent, nor listen to the people except to tell this ignorant and brainwashed electorate what it wants to hear in an election year.

    I came to this conclusion in 2004 and voted pure third party that year and will continue to do so no matter what bullshit the two party monopoly spews from thier lying tongues! Until America wakes out of thier "I want to hear more of your bullshit lying fantasies" mentality, nothing will change and we will continue our spiral deeper into the sewers of the conservative/liberal bullshit, only choice "gospel of american salvation" spewed forth so that party power can be gained or protected.

    Yes, I am fuming and have been for quite some time. Unlike many americans, I have read the constitution and have a great respect and admiration for the ideals and principles of it. I have no respect for this congress nor white house that trashes it.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Anonymous1:35 PM

    Let me ask this and see who responds:

    With the myriad tensions pulling us all this way and that, both individually and the country as a whole, what do you think will give first? The public's tolerance of the Bush Administration? The current incarnation of the Democratic party? The Constitution?

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  40. Anonymous1:36 PM

    It is hard work keeping your powder dry.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Anonymous1:36 PM

    What if we were to start a new party (perhaps the headsoutof thesandanistas) and get the word out in much the same fashion as "How Would a Patriot Act" was publicized? What are our numbers? Could we have a meaningful (i.e., unsymbolic) voice? Organize on the web, attract the Green and Independent Parties and tip the disillusioned and befuddled Democrats (probably numbering over 50% of our minion).

    In a heartbeat I would slingshot to a well organized movement. Our mascot would be perhaps a rhinocerous, symbolic of our singleminded dedication our idealistic loyalty. No gluttonous Elephants or aimlessly circling Jackasses would dare to attack the Rhino.

    Isn't it obvious how desperate we are [I am] for a body of leaders who are, at best, on fire with the passion of Thomas Paine or at least, deluded with collegiate idealism.

    Glenn for President (or at least Attorney General)

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  42. Anonymous1:36 PM

    Glenn, It seems you (and "we" as a society) keep bumping up against this glass ceiling every time you (we) write about this subject of the Democrats' refusal to challenge the Bush admin's policies. The collusion of the Democrats with the Repubs on foreign policy and the related issue of domestic surveillance reflects a common interest of both parties in maintaining something that continually eludes our grasp.

    I agree with statements that put this collusion down to temerity and fear, serving tactical political concerns such as not appearing soft on terorism, weak on defense, and s on. But do these assertions really explain anything? Aren't these tactics part of a much larger strategic vision that reflects a common set of assumptions that the Dems share with the Repubs?

    I'm willing to characterize politicians and technocrats like Hayden in as moralistic terms as anyone else. Who doesn't think that politicans are egotistical, self-serving, and craven hacks? That is, everyone else's politician, not the ones who "work" for us and our local interests. So we are continually faced with the emotional state that something's wrong but we don't know why or how.

    This last point merely echoes the old saw about "all politics is local." It works at a micro level where the over-arching principles and currents that determine the decisions of these politicians never get aired. But are there such principles? What are they?

    Of course, we could say that the Dems act from no larger set of principles. If true, this just gives us one more reason to despise them. They simply let the Repubs set the agenda and then devise their own talking points by countering each Republican agenda point--to varying degrees to the left, so to speak. But they never question the very assumptions that determine the Repub agenda; were they to do so, they could undermine the very world-view that gives birth to the Repub agenda. But they never do question that world-view.

    This Democratic operating procedure makes their own political agenda quite predictable, since all we need to do is to look to the Repubs and then triangulate the possible responses (or non-reponses) that the Dems can make to that agenda. Whether this situation implies a general moral failure on the Dems' part is almost beside the point. We can express moral outrage at their lack of spine, but all that does is create frustration and an anxious political itch.

    It's perhaps a cliche to say that the Dems and Repubs are just two sides of the same coin. For the moment, it seems, the Repubs have the upper hand because they are more assertive and they lead while the Dems follow.

    For the last 40 years or so, the Repubs have changed the public sphere from one of political dialog into one of cultural warfare. Values, life-styles, moral issues have become the political lingo. By attacking a perceived loose, anti-authoritarian, anarchistic, and narcisssistic 60s counter-culture ethos, the Repubs tap into three things: 1) guilt over excesses that individual 60s ex-patriates feel now that they have children to raise, 2) resentment and envy of the lower socio-economic classes over the lavish life-style lived by those very expatriates, and 3) a general economic angst that both lower class and middle-class feel in the winner-take-all workplace.

    These three observations do not seem to have a common factor. Economic concerns do characterize 2 and 3. The first point, I'd argue, simply adds a psychological dimension to the economic factors in 2 and 3. Using this guilt, the Right can shame ex-60s expatriates into silence, since the 60s-70s are just a fad and you can be painted in the old hippie stereotype. And we all know what that means, don't we?

    What's the solution? The Dems must undertake to question the very economic assumptions that inform the shared world-view of the Dems and Repubs. Until they do so, they will simply become mroe and more irrelvant and continue to morph into a sad, pale reflection of their alter-ego Republican "opponents."

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous1:39 PM

    If Harry Reid (D-NV) were on the committee, would he have voted any differently? The entirety of the Democratic leadership has been subverted. How can we take back the country when we can't even take back our own party?

    So let's not get ahead of ourselves. GG is absolutely right. If the DINOs take power, that is not the same as OUR taking power. Unless Levin, Feinstein and their ilk reflect our values...

    ReplyDelete
  44. Anonymous1:43 PM

    I have the feeling that the Dems passivity and the NSA scandal are related.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Professor Foland said:

    In order to lighten everyone's day: it's a political rule of thumb that minority parties are much more inflammatory while out of power than they behave when they finally do get power.

    1:16 PM

    I'm not sure how it lightens our day to imagine the minority dems being less inflammatory that they are now. I guess that means if they get in power, they'll give off heat equivalent to a 5watt light bulb as opposed to the dim 10 watts they are now.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Just as only the Republican party could truly eliminate the second amendment, only the Democrats could dismantle the fourth. I now fear a Democratic majority even more than Republican.

    We now worship computers above all else. They will protect us, ascertain the truth and predict the future. I feel I am in a bad sci-fi novel.

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  47. Glenn:

    Opposing his nomination is both compelled by a principled belief in the rule of law as well as justified by the important political opportunity to highlight this administration's lawbreaking. Sen. Feingold, as usual, shows how this works:

    The Democrats who voted against the nomination were Russell D. Feingold of Wisconsin, Ron Wyden of Oregon and Evan Bayh of Indiana. Each cited concerns about General Hayden's role in a controversial domestic surveillance program he ran while head of the National Security Agency.

    "I am not convinced that the nominee respects the rule of law and Congress's oversight responsibilities," Mr. Feingold said.

    In other words, there are serious questions about whether Gen. Hayden will comply with the law and whether he believes in the rule of law, so perhaps it's not a good idea to install him as CIA Director. Is there some reason Democrats were afraid to make that clear, straightforward, critically important point?


    This is not mystifying in the least.

    Bush nominated General Hayden to head CIA in a conscious and obvious effort to pick a fight with the Donkeys over the NSA intelligence gathering programs. Far from running away from these programs, the Elephants want to make this a central issue in the 2006 campaign to illustrate that Donkeys simply will not do what needs to be done to fight a war.

    Unfortunately, the Donkeys did not take your advice and pick up that thrown down gauntlet. After losing two straight elections on the national defense issue, the Donkeys want to change the subject to just about anything else.

    Even Feingold, who is blatantly pandering to the left wing of the Donkeys Party, was comparably mild. It was telling that he could not offer a single instance of lawbreaking to back up his allegations.

    Glenn, good luck with your book. I can only hope that it goads the Donkey base to have their representatives pick up that NSA gauntlet and make 2006 another choice on national defense.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Anonymous1:47 PM

    When I saw that Levin didn't press the issue at the hearings, I got that sinking feeling. Good for Wyden, Bayh and Feingold.

    It's obvious the pro Hayden dems want a place in the royal court when his majesty King Arbusto is crowned.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anonymous1:49 PM

    I'm so fed up with politicians, consultants, sleaze bags, fascists and the acommodationists who bend over for them.

    I'm beginning to think this country is only an Enabling Act away from pure dictatorship.

    How about secession? If enough people decide to move to one state and organize that state to secede from the Union we can start over.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anonymous1:54 PM

    I don't think they are afraid, I think they know they have a real shot at regaining both houses of Congress as well as the Presidency over the next 2 election cycles and they want the power for themselves. This is exactly the same reason that the Republicans' posturing on the 'nuclear option' for nominations was always BS. They were never going to do it simply because they want the ability to do the same damned thing when they are once again in the minority.

    Two uniforms, same team.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous2:06 PM

    anon: NATIONAL DAY OF OUT(R)AGE

    SaveAccess.org, a national coalition of community media organizations and individuals, is coordinating a nationwide day of protests with actions taking place in New York City, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco on Wednesday, May 24th.


    Don't forget the "Day Without a Patriot," which will include a "Patriot Flu" of sickouts across the US. This project is still under discussion at the Day Without A Patriot blog. There you'll find a statement of purpose, tentative dates, and organizing suggestions.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Anonymous2:16 PM

    greensooner, I believe you've hit the nail on the head. It's naive to put your faith in Democrats. There are a few who are better than most, but for the most part, they're in the same old boys and girls network.

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  53. Anonymous2:17 PM

    The Democrats are worthless, craven serfs to their corporate masters, just as are the Republicans...the Republicans are proud of their serfdom, while the Dems seem timorous about it, but they're all owned just the same.

    Short of a seismic societal upheaval, I think our experiment in representative democracy will not be saved.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Glenn, have you read Liberty under Siege by Walter Karp? It's a revisionist history, published in 1988, of the Carter and Reagan presidencies and the strange role the congressional Democrats played in both, with a focus on government secrecy and domestic surveillance. His conclusion is the same one that several posters have mentioned here: The congressional Democrats were in fact playing a very bold and risky game on behalf of "Oligarchy" and against their constituents and their own professed beliefs. For him, the real struggle was between independent Democrats (like the feckless Carter) and machine Democrats, not between Democrats and Republicans. A bitter and eccentric book, but a very intense and well-argued one, and one whose argument has always haunted my own perceptions of congressional politics.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous2:30 PM

    greensooner: "The Democratic Party needs to get rid of folks who think and behave like this if it is to become a progressive force in American politics. Unfortunately, given the power that such people have in the party, that's easier said than done. The alternative, more sensible in my view, is to look elsewhere -- third parties or nonpartisan pressure groups -- as a focus for opposition to this administration's policies."

    Come on over. We're the Green Party, and we're busting our asses every single day to try and make this nation better, freer and healthier. It's not lots of fun to do it while being marginalized by people like Markos and while also being called "whores for the Republican Party" (the very words that Phil Angelides's campaign manager Bob Mulholland greeted me with when he first met me).

    But we do it anyway, 'cause (unlike people like Markos and Bob Mulholland) we can't bring ourselves to cast our lot with turds like DiFi ever again.

    So, again, come on over.

    www.gp.org

    Peace,

    Patrick Meighan
    Venice, CA

    ReplyDelete
  56. Anonymous2:41 PM

    As if we needed reminding that there the donks are no longer an opposition party and haven't been for more than 20 years.

    The only sane vote in '06 is 3rd Party and Independent.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Anonymous2:43 PM

    Can you help your readers think through your remarks in the context of Steve Clemons' remarks? I was very discouraged until I read him, and then thought maybe there is another way to see this. What do you think?

    Shrink in SF


    "Yesterday, General Michael Hayden's confirmation process to serve as Porter Goss's successor as CIA Director moved out of the Senate Intelligence Committee on a 12-3 vote.

    Those voting against were Ron Wyden, Russ Feingold and Evan Bayh.

    This is interesting as Feingold rarely votes against a presidential nominee -- though he did so on John Bolton. Feingold sees the duplicity about the warrantless wiretaps as something to really dig in about, and I admit to admiring Feingold's steadfastness.

    But this gambit of opposition is not designed to win.

    While some have expressed surprise at my general support of Hayden's nomination, others understand what is going on in this Hayden debate.

    First, most Democrats and most small-government, classic conservative Republicans have failed these many months to destroy the foundation of the President's assertion that Congress gave him the ability to spy domestically without warrant in the Iraq War resolution. Tom Daschle and many have argued that there was a negotiated path that disallowed the White House from using the word "domestic" in its preferred resolution. But Members of Congress have failed to make that deal stick, and the Presidency has continued to expand its powers wherever the Congress and Judiciary fail to knock it back.

    Michael Hayden should be chastised and scrutinized over his role in the warrantless wiretap program, but he is not the problem. A President unchecked by Congress is the problem, and Ron Wyden and Evan Bayh -- though I like both -- have failed to go to the floor and amend every piece of legislation with clarifications that the President has no warrantless domestic spying authority.

    Forcing votes over and over on this issue, much like Senator Ted Kennedy has done in the past on minimum wage hikes, is the way to have won this battle -- not hanging responsibility for the program on Michael Hayden.

    While I have some issues with Hayden, I do believe that he is one of the last hopes in restoring some order at the CIA and rolling back Donald Rumsfeld's colonization of the nation's national security bureaucracy.

    Rumsfeld is my target, and those who see Negroponte, Hayden, and Rumsfeld on the same page are incorrect.

    Negroponte will use Hayden to gore Rumsfeld, Stephen Cambone, and William Boykin.

    And some in the White House -- a bit frustrated that Rumsfeld is not "removable" at this time, as one staffer told me -- does not mind cultivating a bit of competition among the President's intel rivals. This helps give the President some latitude beyond Rumsfeld and is, in general, a smart move that also may be good for the country.

    For Dems and others concerned about national security decisionmaking, learning to turn some of these internal tensions into opportunities -- as I think Russ Feingold sometimes does -- is something that the Democratic Party leadership needs to master to get back into the race.

    More later.

    -- Steve Clemons"

    ReplyDelete
  58. Anonymous2:45 PM

    Let me interject a radical idea. The Dems are rolling over because the country still backs Bush by a wide margin.

    Even with his low numbers they are still twice as good as Congress' approval rating. Some other considerations:
    * Apparently every has forgotten that the Senate was run by the Dems for the first two years of Bush's administration. (Jumping Jim Jeffords)
    * Apparently everyone has forgotten that Tom Daschle made it his business to obstruct Bush as much as possible.
    * Apparently everyone has forgotten that Daschle subsequently was voted out of office which is nearly unheard of for the Senate maority leader.
    * The filibusters fizzled,
    * Murtha was exposed for being a cut and run soldier,
    * Feingold's censure resolution died a miserable death.
    * It's nearly June and some people are STILL waiting for Fitzmas.

    Democrats can try and smear the Republicans as the bad guys all day long if they wish. The problem is that no one is going to consider the Democrats the good guys. But as always, we Republicans encourage the "loyal opposition" to be as mean, caustic, and dismissive as you like. We always appreciate the results.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Patrick Meaghan-

    Will DiFi have a Green opponent in November?

    How active are Alabama Greens? (is that a silly question)

    ReplyDelete
  60. Anonymous2:48 PM

    The last gasps of the two party system?

    ReplyDelete
  61. Anonymous2:49 PM

    I don't know about the other two, but Feinstein has a primary challenger. I e-mailed her office and informed them that I will be adding my support to her challenger and told them they should loook to the campaign Ned Lamont is making against head-Vichy Dem Lieberman.

    MB

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  62. I direct this to bart who was speaking earlier of what a "winning" issue this is for reThugs.

    The CNN poll found 26 percent of respondents thought it was likely their own communications had been tapped, while 63 percent thought it probable that the government had eavesdropped without a court order on citizens not suspected of terrorist links.

    Exactly half of those surveyed said the Bush administration was wrong to spy on those calls without a court order, with 44 percent saying the White House was right.

    Telephone interviews with 1,022 adult Americans were conducted by Opinion Research Corporation Tuesday and Wednesday. The results have a margin of error of plus or minus 4.5 percentage points.


    Link to CNN here

    So if a pluralty think the program is "wrong" why do our congresscritters refuse to attack it. I would sure hate to thing that our favorite troll is right!

    ReplyDelete
  63. Anonymous2:59 PM

    The always-disappointing Dianne Feinstein disappoints again. The only time this office-holder ever did anything worthwhile was when she "rose to the moment" following the assassinations of Mayor George Moscone and Supervisor Harvey Milk, which is what her entire career since is based on. I used to work for another member of the San Francisco Board of Supervisors back in the 70s, and she was always seen as a cave-in to Joe Alioto and the DINOs we had to put up with then. The truth is, she is a DINO's DINO. The only time I ever voted for her since I made the initial mistake of not seeing her for what she is back in 1969 when I helped her get on the Board of Supervisors with my vote, was in 1994, when I voted against Arianna Stassinopoulos Huffington's attempt to jump herself up to the role of Senate Wife (I still don't trust Arianna's "Saul on the road to Tarsus" conversion any further than I can see her with my eyes closed). Looks like I will go back to not voting for her again this year, as she continues to fool enough of the public enough of the time that she's a "Democrat."

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous3:03 PM

    phd9: So if a pluralty think the program is "wrong" why do our congresscritters refuse to attack it. I would sure hate to thing that our favorite troll is right!

    This is a fair question. Let me suggest an analogy based on comments by corporate computer system administartors at slashdot.com. These techies berated commenters there for their hypocrisy about thisw issue. They pointed speciofically to the fact that anyone who uses a corporate LAN have their emails and web use surveilled. So what's the big deal, these propeller heads ask?

    Indeed, what is the big deal. Why should I care if the govt. does it, since I had no problem when I worked for some big wall street firm and I knew they were surveilling me?

    My guess is that many Dem bigwhigs think they're just like the CEOs of corporartions. Since corporations do it, the government should, no? I mean with the vanishing line between corproation interests and government, we should adopt corporate best practices and policies as the prevailing standards for an effective and efficient government.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Anonymous3:11 PM

    hd9: So if a pluralty [sic] think the program is "wrong" why do our congresscritters refuse to attack it.

    This is a fair question. Let me suggest an analogy based on comments by corporate computer system administrators at slashdot.com. These techies berated commenters there for their hypocrisy about this issue. They pointed specifically to the fact that anyone who uses a corporate LAN has their emails and web use surveilled. So what's the big deal, these propeller heads ask?

    Indeed, what is the big deal? Why should I care if the govt. does it, since I had no problem when I worked for some big Wall Street firm and I knew they were surveilling me?

    My guess is that many Dem bigwhigs think they're just like the CEOs of corporations. Since corporations do it, the government should, no? I mean with the vanishing line between corporation interests and government, we should adopt corporate best practices and policies as the prevailing standards for an effective and efficient government.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Anonymous3:13 PM

    apologies for the double-posting. I signed in as Other and do not have the rights to delete the previous post whose typos I corrected.

    ReplyDelete
  67. shooter242:

    Let me interject a radical idea. The Dems are rolling over because the country still backs Bush by a wide margin.

    You misspelled "hallucinatory".

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  68. I had similar thoughts yesterday here: Selling the Constitution down the river, one vote at a time

    I will no longer donate to the Democratic Party as such. Any money Dems get from me will go directly to candidates who take a clear stand on the issues, such as Wyden and Feingold.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Anonymous3:20 PM

    Glenn - Thank you for this post, and for caring.

    The "caring" or, more to the point, the LACK of caring evident in the Senate Intelligence Committee vote, has really gotten to me. Especially because Carl Levin was one of the yes votes. I had already lost all respect for the other three Democrats. But Carl Levin still had my respect. No more. He isn't up for re-election this fall -- he has nothing to "fear" personally, especially considering his low public profile, from taking a principled stand. He almost seems to just want Michael Hayden to "like" him (Constitution be damned).

    Remember -- we are mostly ignorant of the many Senate rules and procedures available to the minority Party to oppose the will of the majority: ONE SENATOR may BLOCK (put a hold on) any nomination to prevent a vote on the Senate floor, correct? No majority of votes needed, not even a filibuster. Just ONE Senator [Jim Jeffords?? Please?] who will put a hold on Hayden's nomination. There are, and have been, SO many ways for the Democrats in the Senate to STOP the madness, but they WILL NOT DO SO. [While safely counting on the media not to inform the country of all the many ways the Democrats in the Senate have chosen to NOT oppose the Senate majority. Ignorance is bliss.]

    I completely agree with your assessment about the post-November scenarios, Glenn. All those tricks of the opposition trade that the Democrats have left to rust, will re-emerge in full force, should the REPUBLICANS find themselves in the minority next year. The Democratic "majority" won't know what hit 'em... And that will be before they even think about emerging from their defensive foxholes... Next logical step: Full Retreat.

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  70. Anonymous3:23 PM

    sunny--html needs a "sarcasm font". You captured precisely my point.

    anonymous--the most recent progressive third party attempt netted less than 5% of the vote. Various things are different now but I still find it hard to make any reality-based argument that such a party would have much more than about 15% of the vote (and even that is not an easy argument to make.)

    One thing I've learned over the past few years keeping track of polling data from pollkatz, Sam Wong's page, and mydd is that it's very hard to move even 1%. We're moving and growing very strongly, but we have to realize that strong growth means a few percent a year.

    I think it's not going to be fruitful to hope for explosive growth. Explosions need oxygen, and the MSM is a very effective smothering blanket. If I may mix metaphors, better now to be slow and steady turtles.

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  71. Anonymous3:27 PM

    wired.com's blog has some interesting thoughts on the new surveillance laws:

    Congress is moving on NSA legislation and Justice Department lawyers are swamped by the number of NSA-related, according to this great little round-up from National Journal's Sarah Lai Stirland.

    In the Senate, Judiciary Chairman Arlen Specter and Jon Kyl are pushing their bill, which according to Stirland, "would clarify that the president's decision to authorize warrantless wiretaps is not a crime and would remove many of the oversight procedures currently required by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. It also would require that legal challenges to the wiretapping program be heard by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review."

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  72. Since corporations do it, the government should, no? I mean with the vanishing line between corproation interests and government, we should adopt corporate best practices and policies as the prevailing standards for an effective and efficient government.

    Of course Corporations do random drug testing too. And routine polygraphs. And keyboard logging. What a great model for government to emulate. (At least they don't throw people in jail-(yet)).

    ReplyDelete
  73. Anonymous3:31 PM

    What many people do not seem to understand here is that Bushco is doing EXACTLY what they intend, which is to destroy the govt in all but name by the time they leave.

    When they are all gone, their corporate buddies will take them in and the govt will be powerless to stop them, no matter who is in charge of the govt.

    They are destroying the essential trust in the govt by its citizens without which the govt can do nothing to stem the corporations rapacious lusts.

    You can see it in the poll results where people grade both parties as equally bad on corruption and trustworthiness. Sure those polls are slanted by the corporate media, but just talking to people on both sides of the spectrum will illustrate the point that people are nearly at the point where they do not trust the govt to do ANYTHING right. I wish I could say that the Democrats coming into power now will fix it, but there are so many corporate lickspittles among them and the fact that they totally cooperated with the Rethugs in redistricting where the pols pick the voters instead of the voters picking them has brought me to the point that I no longer have confidence that enough good people can take over now at the verge and stop it.

    The framers tried really hard to stop this experiment from going astray and they were so brilliant in that task that it did well for almost two hundred years before it went too far. They could not stop a COMPLETELY INTENTIONAL attempt to literally break the system forever. Eisenhower warned about the military industrial complex, and it has now performed the slowest motion coup in history.

    God help us all.

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  74. Anonymous3:34 PM

    phd9: What a great model for government to emulate.

    It's the habits and frame-of-mind that the workplace sets which affect the way we come to expect our goverment to work. Most people spend their adult lives in such corporate environments. The "social programming" power of such environments on individuals is huge.

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  75. Anonymous3:37 PM

    I didn't read all the comments, but I am struck by one thing that most people seem to be forgetting. The Democrats are still the minority party. What precisely can they do, besides start a filibuster showdown with Frist et al.?

    The only outcome of a fight on this matter would be a media focus on the process of the filibuster fight, and Republicans would score points as the issue would inevitably devolve to a pissing match over who looks "tuffer." What roadblocks of consequence did congressional Republicans put up appointee hearings in their days in the hinterlands? I don't recall any failures to confirm linked to hearing questions when they were on the outside.

    I say, let the Republicans eat their own, choose good issues (read: politcally expedient) to fight on, and pray for a turnover in Congress in '06 if you really want to see anything happen.

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  76. Sorry I missed the snark, Professor Foland. Sometimes I mislay my sense of humor in this world gone mad.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Anonymous3:47 PM

    davidbyron: As a result in America there's little to no protection of the freedoms of the individual from corporations and in recent times especially under Bush the government is being privitised specifically because there are no legal protections from corporate abuse.

    Historically, you could trace the entire US constitutional focus on "rights" back to the Roman legal system. As Simone Weil points out, the Roman legal concept of "right" involves the disposition of property. things to use. Often many of these Roman "rights" revolved around the disposition of slaves and non-citizens. Indeed, you could buy your rights under Roman law. For her own part, Weil suggests that along with a Bill of Rights, there should go a Bill of Responsibilities, specfically the responsibilities that goverment has toward citizens.

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  78. Anonymous3:49 PM

    Who could have guessed that Ross Perot was the sanest person in the room?

    With thanks to Roget, Senate Dems are afraid, anxious, apprehensive, backward, base, caitiff, cowering, cowhearted, craven, dastardly, diffident, dismayed, faint-hearted, frightened, gutless, jittery, lacking courage, lily-livered, nervous, no guts, panicky, paper tigers, pigeon-hearted, pusillanimous, recreant, retiring, run scared, scared, shrinking, shy, soft, spineless, timid, timorous, weak, weak-kneed, worthless, yellow chickenshits with the willies.

    And I don't think much of symbolic demonstrations by citizens that impact everyone except our unelected representatives. It would be better for ten million to march on Washington and physically throw all the bums out.

    ReplyDelete
  79. PhD9 said...

    I direct this to bart who was speaking earlier of what a "winning" issue this is for reThugs.

    The CNN poll found 26 percent of respondents thought it was likely their own communications had been tapped, while 63 percent thought it probable that the government had eavesdropped without a court order on citizens not suspected of terrorist links.

    Exactly half of those surveyed said the Bush administration was wrong to spy on those calls without a court order, with 44 percent saying the White House was right.

    Telephone interviews with 1,022 adult Americans were conducted by Opinion Research Corporation Tuesday and Wednesday. The results have a margin of error of plus or minus 4.5 percentage points.

    Link to CNN here

    So if a pluralty think the program is "wrong" why do our congresscritters refuse to attack it. I would sure hate to thing that our favorite troll is right!


    These politorials are based on the lie that NSA is targeting average US citizens. PLEASE call your Donkey representative and demand that he or she campaign on this lie. Video of their campaign speeches making this claim would make marvelous campaign commercials for their Elephant opponants.

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  80. Glenn:

    You were wondering why the sudden spike in the use of the state secrets evidence privilege...

    cynic librarian said...

    wired.com's blog has some interesting thoughts on the new surveillance laws:

    Congress is moving on NSA legislation and Justice Department lawyers are swamped by the number of NSA-related, according to this great little round-up from National Journal's Sarah Lai Stirland:

    In federal courts around the nation, meanwhile, the administration is busy fighting legal challenges to its wiretapping authority.

    The Justice Department is scheduled to file responses to two lawsuits brought by civil-liberties groups in Michigan and New York on Friday. The two courts gave Justice more time to file after department attorneys requested it.

    In a filing with a federal district court in New York last week, the attorneys said they were overwhelmed by the workload posed by several NSA-related lawsuits being filed around the country. The attorneys also said department heads must approve the proposed legal argument in the case. They plan to argue that the wiretapping involves military and state secrets and that the case should be dismissed.


    That is the same argument Justice made to a federal court in San Francisco, where the Electronic Frontier Foundation has launched a class-action lawsuit against AT&T for allegedly giving the government consumer telephone records. Justice intervened and asked the court to dismiss the case because the facts involve a state secret that, if revealed, could jeopardize national security. Justice and EFF are scheduled to submit their arguments on that point sometime Monday.


    http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=34136&sid=28

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  81. Anonymous4:11 PM

    Your title asks if there are any differences between Dems of 2003 and today? I'll keep this short and sweet: No. No difference. None. They are the same lilly livered, craven cowards, crooks, and cronies that they were then.

    I am voting (and NOT donating accordingly).

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  82. Anonymous4:15 PM

    Feinstein is my Senawhore and I can tell you she's not afraid of anyone. She's insulated by too many layers of military contractor pork to even hear the bleetings of the surrounding sheep farm. As far as she's concerned, Hayden's just a neighborly hogtier from the Repub dude ranch down the road, hired on to whip the herd into line.

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  83. Anonymous4:15 PM

    Kevin Hayden,
    Love your list of adjectives, but I actually think the word should be complicit. I think the Dems know exactly what they're doing, and for the most part they're not on our side. I hate to be that cynical, but everything points to it.

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  84. Anonymous4:17 PM

    From Bart at 4:06PM:

    "You were wondering why the sudden spike in the use of the state secrets evidence privilege..."

    Odd. I thought Glenn's point was this was a systematic over-use of the privilege, not one prompted by the EFF's suit.

    ReplyDelete
  85. yankeependragon said...

    From Bart at 4:06PM: "You were wondering why the sudden spike in the use of the state secrets evidence privilege..."

    Odd. I thought Glenn's point was this was a systematic over-use of the privilege, not one prompted by the EFF's suit.


    Exactly.

    Glenn claimed that the privilege was being overused because it was being used more since 9/11 than it had in the previous forty some years of its existence.

    In response, I speculated that the actual culprit was a spate of lawsuits brought by legal groups without any standing seeking to conduct discovery fishing expeditions over at NSA.

    Looks like I guessed right. cynic librarian's linked article reports that ACLU and similar groups are inundating DOJ with just such suits and the state secrets doctrine is being used in defense of all of them.

    Thus your spike in the use of the doctrine. No conspiracy involved...

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  86. Anonymous4:29 PM

    For such a (mostly) smart group of people, it really amazes me that no one so far has stated the most obvious reason for Democratic timidity on surveillance issues: the likely political fallout from another terrorist attack.

    I'm not saying it would give Bush anything more than a temporary boost in the polls -- if even that. And it might possibly provoke a backlash against the Republicans, too.

    But -- and this is the critical point -- I'd bet good money that in the aftermath of another successful terrorist attack, the last thing in the world you'd see would be the majority of the public buying in to the notion that less, not more, intrusive surveillance is needed.

    Any lawmaker who stongly opposed -- or even questioned -- such provisions in the past would be vulnerable. Just as the hawks use votes against weapons systems -- no matter how expensive, unreliable, and unnecessary the systems actually were -- as proof their opponents were dangerously soft-headed weaklings, the same smear would be used against any politician who put antiquated concerns over the balance of powers and the rule of law above protecting us from the scary brown people.

    With rare exceptions, what politicians are most concerned about is winning the next election, period. Long-term damage to the Republic is way down on their list of priorities.

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  87. Anonymous4:31 PM

    From Bart at 4:25PM:

    "In response, I speculated that the actual culprit was a spate of lawsuits brought by legal groups without any standing seeking to conduct discovery fishing expeditions over at NSA."

    "Thus your spike in the use of the doctrine. No conspiracy involved..."

    Save perhaps a conspiracy of dunces. Had the Bush Administration any working brains to it, it would have simply sought the necessary amendments to the law in question, instead of going this impossible-to-legally-defend route and create an even bigger mess for itself.

    That doesn't excuse the abuse of the privilege itself either, btw.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous4:32 PM

    Gus: complicit works. Perot said we had one party, the money party. That's where they're clearly complicit. And mine's hardly a marginal view. Go read today's Zogby poll: Congress is trusted by 2% !

    ReplyDelete
  89. Anonymous4:32 PM

    To all hoping that the Dems will shake the foundations after November, perhaps this be a sobering fact:

    The midterm elections this fall will supposedly be all about the "culture of corruption" in Washington, wherein noble-minded reformers-most of them Democrats, presumably-will rail against lobbyists who are perverting and distorting government. So far, though, lobbyists are just carrying on as usual. Public Citizen released a report today looking at donations by lobbyists and their PACs-in 2006, lobbyist donations to members of Congress are on pace to be about 10 percent higher than they were in 2004 (totaling $34 million), which were in turn 90 percent higher than they were in 2000 (totaling $18 million).

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  90. Anonymous4:41 PM

    For what it's worth, on May 19 I got a mass e-mail from Howard Dean saying the DNC wanted 100,000 names of people opposed to Hayden's nomination, to be delivered to senators voting on confirmation. I signed and added my comments. So it seems there is opposition somewhere. That said, I was very disheartened to see that only 3 Dems on the committee could muster the will to vote no on Hayden.

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  91. Anonymous4:42 PM

    Grouchomarxist: the likely political fallout from another terrorist attack.

    And the political fallout the polls show they're about to reap doesn't catch their attention?

    Basing decisions on fear, except in a direct, life-threatening moment, isn't leadership and isn't representation.

    They choose not to resist because they believe they'll get away with that. And if citizens grant them that, we're as much to blame as they are.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Anonymous4:46 PM

    Anonymous said... RE -- Steve Clemons @ 2:43 PM

    Politics is messy and convoluted, Civil war is easy by comparison. I pretend no expertise in the former, which is why I defer to people like Clemons on those issues. He's been very good on these matters.

    Negroponte-Rumsfeld Battle Will Proceed

    Pelosi, as bad as she is, is no worse than DiFi and CA is a state that could go red with a little more tinkering. As another commenter pointed out. Third parties are a long way off from being effective contenders and only act as spoilers. Better to move the Democrats to the left, like the activists have done with the GOP over the last 40 years.

    Nancy Pelosi's House Democratic Caucus and Its Insular Stubbornness
    by Matt Stoller, Fri Mar 10, 2006 at 03:53:19 AM EST

    A few weeks ago, Representative Louise Slaughter came out with a report called 'America for Sale' on the cost of Republican corruption. The link is no longer working, and I'll explain why in the next paragraph. The report itself was well done, and actually quantified the cost to taxpayers of what has been so obvious for so long, the looting of America by corrupted elites. The report elicited attacks from Republicans, who smeared Slaughter with charges that writing the report itself was an unethical use of taxpayer funds. Now, Louise Slaughter is a member of the House Rules Committee, so documenting the costs of corruption was completely reasonable. What is truly remarkable is that not one Democratic member stood by her. Not one issued a statement. No one from the progressive caucus - most of whom are in safe seats - came forward public to stand by their colleague. I'm sure there were pats on the back in private, but then, that's kind of the point.

    And now, in a final insult, the report was removed from Pelosi's leader web site, apparently because of worries that the Republicans will file ethics charges against Pelosi for hosting it (it supposedly violates House Franking rules, which are incoherent and a huge mess and part of the tyranny of Republican rule in the House). Enough is enough. Whoever made the boneheaded decision in Pelosi's office is just out of touch. Leaders serious about ending corruption do not hang out to dry members who stand up against the looting of the country. Leaders serious about governing and wielding power do not scurry in hiding every time Republicans talk about ethics. They do not try to obey arbitrary incoherent rules that are written by Republicans and broken by the other side at will.

    If Democrats win in 2006 (which is quite uncertain), Pelosi does not sound like she can do what is necessary to save this country. She acts like a small-minded summer camp councelor for spoiled Democratic members, and unless we are vigilant and aggressive this mindset is going to carry on over to whatever gains we make in 2006. Right now, there's this half-joke among Congresscritters that members don't speak in caucus meetings without first thanking everyone in the room. Members waste each others' time. Staffers are kept out of the loop, and lie to each other in vicious and pointless turf wars where the only goal is to get better offices. This diseased culture comes from years of being smacked around by Republicans, with little indignities like Republican Committee staffers getting better Blackberries and big indignities like Republicans changing rules whenever it suits them. The way to reverse this culture is to have leaders who do not back down.

    Yes, it's that bad. I've been told that the way to gain power in the Democratic caucus is to get elected, and then this is key, to not die. That's how you become a committee leader. And apparently to become leader you promise not to rock the boat and make sure that every gets their precious little committee assignment, regardless of merit. Listen to this pathetic podcast by Representaive Frank Pallone, who jokes about what a bad job he's doing as the Democratic member in charge of 'message'. Yes, in fact that's his job as the Communications Chairman of the Democratic Policy Committee, where he "coordinates the party's message on the floor of the House of Representatives."

    And the symptom is that when House Republicans say jump, Nancy Pelosi says 'how high?' And that's not because we're in the minority. It's because Pelosi allows this kind of stupidity to hamstring the caucus. And if you think this will end if we ever take the majority, prepare to be disappointed.

    Standing up to this ineffective, anti-progressive, anti-meritocratic mechanism that coddles Democratic members is going to be key, whatever happens in 2006. The rallying cry for Democrats in the House should not be 'Universal health care for Democratic incumbent Congressmen', as it seems to have been since 1994. New candidates coming into office should realize that it's time for open elections for committee slots, for leadership posts, and for every other position of power in the House...

    ReplyDelete
  93. Anonymous4:57 PM

    Read an article on the myths and realities of progressivism here:

    www.thoughttheater.com

    ReplyDelete
  94. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  95. Anonymous5:00 PM

    Pelosi or Frist? They say you get the government you deserve. I'd rather deserve Pelosi, as bad as she is, given the option. It's the evil of two lessers, but that's politics in our time. Slow and steady, some day in the future the people will be ready for real choices.

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  96. Just as the hawks use votes against weapons systems -- no matter how expensive, unreliable, and unnecessary the systems actually were -- as proof their opponents were dangerously soft-headed weaklings .

    Which of course is why we had to go into Iraq with the Army we had as opposed to the one we wish we had.
    Everyone knows that cruise missles are sexier (and more expensive) then Humvee armor.

    And we all know that Donald Rumsfield is the foremost proponent of the "smaller force with cooler toys" doctrine which is serving us so well!

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  97. Anonymous5:17 PM

    And we all know that Donald Rumsfield is the foremost proponent of the "smaller force with cooler toys" doctrine which is serving us so well

    There is nothing wrong with this doctrine. It's implementation and execution has been flawed and failed by Rumsfeld. Try this:

    Schooling Don Rumsfeld

    Follow the links to larry Johnson's site, Pat Lang's site. Read the artical by Joe Galloway that fired the first shot and the e-mail exchange between Galloway (you'll find out who he is) and DiRita. DiRita, Rumsfeld's press spokesman. Not DiRito...

    Daniel DiRito said...
    Read an article on the myths and realities of progressivism here:

    www.thoughttheater.com


    Progressive politics in the U.S. A complex subject. The first Progressive party candidate for president was Teddy Roosevelt, founder of the party in 1912, I think. He was a Republican before that. I'll defer to Paul Rosenberg for historical context on the subject of progressive politics, if he cares to add anything. As long as the right debases and denigrates it, whatever it is, you know they fear it. Michael Moore, Ward Churchill, Cindy Sheehan... The right does this with anything "progressive". What you are describing is the inevitable transformation of any movement hoping to chnage the status quo into a bureacracy concerned with maintaining it's new position... as the new status quo.

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  98. Anonymous5:31 PM

    Here's one difference between the Dem and the Pukes...


    Desperate for Supporters, DeLay Turns to Stephen Colbert


    A good sign that Tom DeLay doesn’t have the facts on his side: the top source for his latest defense against his critics is Stephen Colbert.

    This morning, DeLay’s legal defense fund sent out a mass email criticizing the movie “The Big Buy: Tom DeLay’s Stolen Congress,” by “Outfoxed” creator Robert Greenwald.

    The email features a “one-pager on the truth behind Liberal Hollywood’s the Big Buy,” and the lead item is Colbert’s interview with Greenwald on Comedy Central (where Colbert plays a faux-conservative, O’Reilly-esque character). The headline of the “fact sheet”:

    HOLLYWOOD PULLS MICHAEL MOORE ANTICS ON TOM DeLAY

    COLBERT CRACKS THE STORY ON REAL MOTIVATIONS BEHIND THE MOVIE



    DeLay thinks Colbert is so persuasive, he’s now featuring the full video of the interview at the top of the legal fund’s website. And why not? According to the email, Greenwald “crashed and burned” under the pressure of Colbert’s hard-hitting questions, like “Who hates America more, you or Michael Moore?”

    Apparently the people at DeLay’s legal fund think that Colbert is actually a conservative. Or maybe they’re just that desperate for supporters.


    Jeebus! Heaven help us! The Stoopids are in charge and running are governement!

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  99. When they confirm Hayden democrats will also weaken their position with regard to reigning in the NSA. It reminds me of when Reagan, in 1985, convinced many democrats to approve a funding bill for the Contras.

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  100. Anonymous5:45 PM

    Glenn, doesn't it seem as obvious to you as to me that the real reason for many Democrats' silence on matters NSA-related is that they're already being spied upon? That an entire shadow government is monitoring their every move and repeatedly threatening them in secret -- with an added warning that should they go public on the matter, they'd be in even greater personal danger?
    There's a little tinfoil in this argument, sure, but it sure seems obvious to me. Even if active threats are not being made, it seems self-evident that congressional Dems are afraid of something beyond a 29% president... and this would be it.
    Wouldn't it?

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  101. Anonymous5:47 PM

    Who was it who has been saying all along that the Democrats are not the answer, that the two-party system has broken down, that systemic reform is needed? Oh yeah . . . that was me.

    Ah, David Shaugnessy is back, and he’s being more of an obnoxious ass than ever. There was a time when his comments were relevant. Too bad.

    I didn’t see anything in Glenn’s post admitting you were right and he was wrong. Many of us here have long been frustrated by the timidity of the Democrats in power, but that doesn’t mean that we’re ready to follow you in guaranteeing continued dominance to the Republicans by starting some new party that would take many years to have a chance to come to power.

    Now Glenn said that the Democratic Party is “broken,” and I agree, but he also does not expect them to be suddenly “cleansed and reformed on their own” – he knows it’s going to take some time.

    The glacial pace at which that is happening is often frustrating, and on some days, not discernible – this is one of those days for Glenn, but he did agree with Digby that change is slowly taking place.

    Glenn’s too smart to join your “real world” of total irrelevancy and your magical third party that will overcome all institutional obstacles overnight to immediately gain power.

    Now, unless you have something actually relevant to say, you can go back down your rabbit hole. And you might want to consider Professor Foland's statement at 3:23 before demanding some sort of an apology from Glenn.

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  102. Anonymous5:49 PM

    What makes this special is two days ago I received an email from the DNC asking me to sign a petition against Hayden. Silly me, I thought the petition was aimed at Republicans who might want to take a stand to protect our civil liberties. Then Leven and Feinstien both representing safe seats vote with the people that want to abrogate the rule of law.
    I can see only one way out, we need a new political party.

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  103. Anonymous5:52 PM

    Continuing from yesterday's discussion...

    bart said:
    A foreign group is either state or non state actor of two or more persons.

    An agent is a person acting on behalf of the group.


    For the love of God, bart, you skipped the most important part of my question- when is an American citizen considered to be a "foreign agent"? How is that established?

    bart said:
    In contrast, intelligence gathering pretty much covers everything else so long as it is directed against a foreign group and it agents in the US.

    Well, we're still hanging on what it means to be a "foreign agent", aren't we? When is intelligence gathering without a warrant allowed on an American citizen, (presumably because he/she has been designated a "foreign agent")? How is that designation of "foreign agent" status established?

    bart said:
    Carter was the moron who agreed to give away some of his Article II powers by signing FISA.

    So, again, you believe FISA un-Constitutionally constrains the President's Article II powers? Wow. Just out of curiosity, how long have you believed this? When did you first state that FISA is un-Constitutional? 1980? 1990? 2000? Or merely in December, when the warrantless program was revealed?

    Regardless of whether Carter was a "moron" or not, you yourself just admitted that the Article II powers you cite have already been "given away". If Article II powers have already been "given away", as you state, doesn't that mean that no later President had those powers anymore?

    bart said:
    Clinton made a very similar argument to search the home of Aldrich Ames.

    No, he didn't, and more importantly, I think you know that. Jamie Gorelick testified to the President's "inherent authority" in the absence of FISA legislation (in Clinton's case, physical searches). Never did she mention that FISA was an un-Constitutional constraint to the President's Article II powers.

    (By the way, Congress disagreed with the "inherent authority" argument and inserted legislation to cover physical searches. The Clinton Administration abided by the new requirements.)

    Presidential activity (or "inherent authority") in the absence of legislation is far, far different than Presidential activity in violation of legislation. I think you know that.

    bart said:
    I have no idea what George I may have done.

    In fact, he never made any argument that FISA was un-Constitutional, isn't that correct? And Reagan? Reagan never claimed FISA was un-Constitutional, isn't that correct?

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  104. Anonymous5:57 PM

    The two party system could use some systemic reform.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous6:04 PM

    Hey Glenn,

    It might be that the Dems are pursuing (wrongly in my opinion) some course of 'not making waves' and 'when we win in Nov. THEN we'll fix everything' (if ya catch my drift).
    I agree that ONLY when America says "Enough is Enough!" will we have REAL change.
    I'm surprised that you didn't use what I would have thought would have been an obvious analogy.
    Neville Chamberlain's policy of appeasement in dealing with Hitler.
    We all know how well THAT turned out!

    P.S.

    Bumper Sticker I made up:

    LOYALTY TO BUSH IS TREASON TO AMERICA

    I get many more 'honks of support' than 'fingers'!

    ReplyDelete
  106. Anonymous6:05 PM

    cfaller96 said...
    Continuing from yesterday's discussion...

    5:52 PM


    If you are an attorney and wish to hone your skills, have at it. But arguing with Bart without benefit of a court, Judge, and little things like rules of procedure, agreed upon stipulations... all the things that make an argument before a trier of fact possible, is pretty much just an exercise in wankery. Bart's wankery. Let him practice his wankery in the mirror.

    ReplyDelete
  107. cfaller96 said...

    bart said: A foreign group is either state or non state actor of two or more persons. An agent is a person acting on behalf of the group.

    For the love of God, bart, you skipped the most important part of my question- when is an American citizen considered to be a "foreign agent"?


    The same way any other person is determined to be a foreign agent, they are found to be acting on behalf of the foreign group.

    How is that established?

    Here are some examples of evidence indicating that a person is acting as an agent of a foreign group like al Qaeda: Testimony by fellow al Qaeda, admissions of the person under surveillance, being observed planning, supplying, financing or carrying out an al Qaeda operation, etc, etc.

    However, we are getting ahead of ourselves. The issue is how do the reported NSA Programs target al Qaeda agents in the US rather than average innocent citizens?

    You start with telephone numbers captured from al Qaeda operatives. Estimates of these numbers range from a few hundred to a few thousand. However, you have significantly reduced the number of target numbers exponentially down from the tend of millions in the United States.

    You monitor these numbers by using a computer screening system looking for jihadi language and likely targets in the US. This reduces the likelihood of intercepting innocent Americans who for some reason are contacting al Qaeda telephone numbers by another exponential amount.

    You then check common telephone call records against these numbers, go out six degrees of calls and then look for further numbers which have been in frequent contact with the several hundred captured al Qaeda numbers. This technique can also be used to reduce the number of captured al Qaeda numbers to those which are in frequent contact with other al Qaeda numbers. Finding these nodes of telephone calls increases the likelihood that you are identifying actual al Qaeda agents.

    bart said: In contrast, intelligence gathering pretty much covers everything else so long as it is directed against a foreign group and it agents in the US.

    Well, we're still hanging on what it means to be a "foreign agent", aren't we? When is intelligence gathering without a warrant allowed on an American citizen, (presumably because he/she has been designated a "foreign agent")? How is that designation of "foreign agent" status established?


    See above.

    bart said: Carter was the moron who agreed to give away some of his Article II powers by signing FISA.

    So, again, you believe FISA un-Constitutionally constrains the President's Article II powers? Wow. Just out of curiosity, how long have you believed this? When did you first state that FISA is un-Constitutional? 1980? 1990? 2000? Or merely in December, when the warrantless program was revealed?


    Like 99.999999% of the US, I hadn't even heard of FISA before the NYT leaked this program. So what? It didn't take much research before I found the case law governing this question was all on the President's side.

    Regardless of whether Carter was a "moron" or not, you yourself just admitted that the Article II powers you cite have already been "given away". If Article II powers have already been "given away", as you state, doesn't that mean that no later President had those powers anymore?

    That was a poor choice of words. No president can "waive" his constitutional powers to another branch by signing a statute. The fact that Carter chose not to use his powers is not binding on later Presidents.

    bart said: Clinton made a very similar argument to search the home of Aldrich Ames.

    No, he didn't, and more importantly, I think you know that. Jamie Gorelick testified to the President's "inherent authority" in the absence of FISA legislation (in Clinton's case, physical searches).


    Yes he did. Read Gorelick's testimony.

    Presidential activity (or "inherent authority") in the absence of legislation is far, far different than Presidential activity in violation of legislation. I think you know that.

    Only in situations where both Congress and the President share authority over a subject matter area. However, where the President has plenary or sole authority under the Constitution, Congress has no power to act in that area.

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  108. Anonymous6:25 PM

    shooter242 said:
    I'd prefer that the representatives of Americans know [if the nominated CIA Director intends to engage in waterboarding], rather than the entire world...

    My questions still stand unanswered, shooter. If you believe the McCain Amendment has already told "the world" that we do not engage in waterboarding, then why are you concerned with "the world" finding out what General Hayden has to say about waterboarding? If you think we've already sent the message, then what's the big deal about demanding our future CIA director reiterate that message under oath?

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  109. Anonymous6:27 PM

    shooter242 said:
    ...Because Republicans have won three elections in a row. From the looks of things it's going to be four this November...

    Here is an interesting (and faulty) assumption: that reelection constitutes support of any given policy embraced by the Republican Party.

    But if that is right, shooter242, then logically doesn't the opposite hold true if Republicans lose the majority this fall?

    In other words, if Democrats take back the House, does that mean Republicans (and you) are wrong? You seem to imply that Republicans are right because they keep getting reelected, so I'm just wondering...

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  110. It's not a lack of spine per se that immobilizes the Democrats.

    It's that the Democratic power structure is owned by the same people that own the Republicans.

    You know. The same people that own bart.

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  111. To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into
    Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this
    Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or
    Officer thereof.

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  112. HWSNBN admits his cluelessness:

    [HWSNBN]: Like 99.999999% of the US, I hadn't even heard of FISA before the NYT leaked this program....

    That's that same 99.999999% of the US that think that Dubya's the greatest thing since sliced bread and that approve wholeheartedly of being wiretapped so they can come out from under the bed again, I assume. ;-) Of course, I leave it to the sentient ones here (sorry, Bart, come back later) to ponder the "fact" that people approve of the things they're ignorant of....

    [HWSNBN]: ... So what?

    Here's what: The troll HWSNBN is an admitted ignoramus (but has the audacity to try and lecture others on something he admits to being ignorant about...)

    I think that about sums it up.... Pretty clear, IMNSHO.

    Cheers,

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  113. Anonymous6:36 PM

    A lot of people here today need to get off their pity potty. Yeah, the Dems are acting like whipped dogs, but the fact is if you want any chance at changing things you better vote for them in November. Otherwise Bush will think he has another mandate, even at 29%. And nothing (emphasis) nothing will be worse than having two more years of a completely Republican government with Bush in charge.

    After November I think we should all talk about forming another party. One that actually represents the people in this country. I think there is the nucleus for a good one right here, minus Bart, Shooter, and Dog.

    If the Dems gain Congress with a Repub Pres then in 2008 will be a good time to have a third party candidate or candidates.

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  114. Anonymous6:39 PM

    shooter242 said:
    Let me interject a radical idea. The Dems are rolling over because the country still backs Bush by a wide margin.

    And you base this idea on what, the smoke coming out of your ass? Polls (no, I don't have them at my fingertips) have consistently shown that people would prefer Democrats to control Congress- in fact, they would prefer it by double digits. I believe the latest poll showed that around 20% of Republicans would prefer Democrats to control Congress!

    This sounds more like wishful thinking, or truthiness straight from the gut. Just because you still back Bush doesn't mean the rest of the country backs Mr. 29%.

    So, again, I ask you, on what do you base your assertion that "the country still backs Bush by a wide margin"?

    shooter242 said:
    Even with his low numbers they are still twice as good as Congress' approval rating.

    Whoop de freakin' doo. Pop quiz: who controls Congress, shooter? People are not dumb- it's a Republican Congress, and disapproval of Congress means people disapprove of a Republican-controlled entity.

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  115. Anonymous6:43 PM

    Try this one: the acquiescence of the Dems is a more reliable clue of the true purpose, extent and effectiveness of the Administration's spying and other not-yet-known programs of intimidation than the war-on-terrorism stuff they justify it with in the media.

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  116. Anonymous6:56 PM

    The Democrats could have taken a stand back in 2001, after the Supreme Court installed Bush. A party with guts would have said, "Look, the legitimacy of this presidency is one of the shakiest in U.S. history. So we're drawing a line in the sand: if Mr. Bush does not consult with Democrats in the House and the Senate before submitting legislation, we are going to do everything in our power to stop his initiatives in their tracks: no judges, no tax cuts, no nothing.

    But instead, we have a party that gets kicked, and just rolls over to be kicked again. Doesn't anyone in the Democratic Party understand that Karl Rove would never give an inch if he were running the minority party?

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  117. Anonymous6:58 PM

    grouchomarxist said:
    But -- and this is the critical point -- I'd bet good money that in the aftermath of another successful terrorist attack, the last thing in the world you'd see would be the majority of the public buying in to the notion that less, not more, intrusive surveillance is needed.

    I'd take that bet- what do President Bush's poll numbers look like in New York City, Pennsylvania, and Washington DC? What do those locations have in common?

    I'd be willing to bet that another terrorist attack would anger the people towards President Bush. They already don't trust him, and now he's failed to prevent a second terrorist attack on our soil? And how would it look in the aftermath of a second attack if we find out that President Bush and Abu Gonzales spent their time conducting warrantless surveillance on innocent American citizens and journalists?

    No, at some point in time everyone would realize that successful terrorist attacks are not a problem of legislative restrictions, but merely of basic incompetence and laziness at the highest levels of government. I don't think anyone would be willing to give the same lazy, incompetent leaders any more power than they already have.

    But then again, I'm not a pants-wetting Democratic Congressman either...

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  118. Anonymous7:17 PM

    Well, I am still contacting my representatives. I'm not happy with them, but I guess I will continue. I got this back from Levin, for what it's worth ($.0) Again...I am not happy:

    Dear Ms. Shelton:

    On May 18, 2006, the Senate Intelligence Committee, of which I am a member, began its consideration of the nomination of General Michael Hayden to be the new Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. In light of your previous correspondence, I thought you might be interested in my thoughts on General Hayden's nomination.

    The United States Constitution gives the President the authority to appoint individuals to run the various executive agencies. It also imposes the duty on the United States Senate to give its advice and consent to these nominations.

    As you may know, General Hayden currently serves as the Deputy Director of National Intelligence. Prior to assuming that position in May 2005, General Hayden served as the Director of the National Security Agency (NSA) and in various intelligence positions within the Department of Defense.

    General Hayden has the background and credentials for the position of CIA Director, but this job requires more than an impressive resume. This nomination comes at a time when the CIA is in disarray. Its current Director, Porter Goss, has apparently been forced out, and the previous Director, George Tenet, left under a cloud after having compromised his own objectivity and independence, and that of the CIA, by misusing Iraq intelligence to support the Administration's policy agenda. One major question I will seek to answer as I consider General Hayden's nomination is whether he will restore analytical independence and objectivity at the CIA and speak truth to power, or whether he will shape intelligence to support Administration policy and mislead Congress and the American people, as former Director of Central Intelligence Tenet did. Another major question is General Hayden's view on the electronic surveillance of American citizens.

    The war on terrorism not only requires objective, independent intelligence analysis, it also requires us to strike a careful balance between our liberty and our security. Over the past six months, we have been engaged in a national debate about the NSA's electronic surveillance program and the telephone records of American citizens. As a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, I have been investigating the NSA programs and will vigorously question General Hayden about these programs during his nomination hearing.

    My opening statement from General Hayden's nomination hearing on May 18, 2006, can be found on my website at [http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=255787].
    Sincerely,
    Carl Levin

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  119. Bingo. Preach it, Glenn.

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  120. Anonymous7:40 PM

    blog bubble, indeed. and what happens once BushCo shuts down the blogs?

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous7:44 PM

    When is an American citizen considered to be a "foreign agent"?

    bart said:
    The same way any other person is determined to be a foreign agent, they are found to be acting on behalf of the foreign group.

    Found by whom?

    bart said:
    You start with telephone numbers captured from al Qaeda operatives...You monitor these numbers by using a computer screening system looking for jihadi language...You then check common telephone call records against these numbers

    bart, this all sounds wonderful, but (assuming these telephone numbers are of American citizens) all of it can and should be done with a FISA warrant. I fail to see where it's necessary to do any of what you mentioned without a warrant.

    You may not think that's necessary, since in your mind it's all done for "intelligence gathering purposes", but don't you want to get these American citizens who are also members of al Qaeda? Wouldn't it be better to be able to use these surveillance records in a court of law, so we can prosecute, convict, and then jail those American citizens who have collaborated with al Qaeda?

    Without warrants, this evidence can't be used, and I'd hate to think that the warrantless surveillance program was a cause for letting members of al Qaeda roam free. I know you'd hate that too.

    bart said:
    It didn't take much research before I found the case law governing this question was all on the President's side.

    I've asked for this before, I'll ask for it again: please cite the post-FISA case law you are referring to. Post-FISA, bart, post-FISA. That means after 1978. Until you start backing up your claims, I'm going to think it's bulls--t, just like your "Iran/yellow stars for Jews" story was bulls--t.

    bart said:
    No president can "waive" his constitutional powers to another branch by signing a statute

    But his Constitutional powers weren't "waived", they were merely restricted. Perhaps you think that's the same thing, in which case I'd like you to elaborate.

    bart said:
    The fact that Carter chose not to use his powers is not binding on later Presidents.

    In fact Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II didn't challenge, and thus accepted, the Constitutionality of the statute. It's debatable whether it's binding on later Presidents, I'll grant you, but you should note that Bush II isn't claiming that FISA is un-Constitutional.

    bart said:
    Yes he did [claim FISA was un-Constitutional]. Read Gorelick's testimony.

    Jamie Gorelick is a female, bart. I did read her testimony, did you? She never claimed that FISA was un-Constitutional. Feel free to cite passages from her testimony. Until you back this claim up, it's bulls--t.

    bart said:
    Where the President has plenary or sole authority under the Constitution, Congress has no power to act in that area.

    And what area of the Constitution are we talking about, bart? War powers? Please elaborate.

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  122. Anonymous7:51 PM

    Throw all the bums out. Both parties.

    Hastert being investigated by the FBI. ABC News: “The Speaker of the House of Representatives, Dennis Hastert, is under investigation by the FBI, which is seeking to determine his role in an ongoing public corruption probe into members of Congress, ABC News has learned from high level official sources. Federal officials say the information implicating Hastert was developed from convicted lobbyists who are now cooperating with the government.”

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  123. Anonymous8:03 PM

    Jamie Gorelick is a female, bart. I did read her testimony, did you? She never claimed that FISA was un-Constitutional. Feel free to cite passages from her testimony. Until you back this claim up, it's bulls--t.

    Not quite, Gorelick has a real job and isn't quite as ugly.

    Where it's safe, a Green party or socialist candidate will get my vote. I'd vote for a "real libertarian" (anti-capitalist mutualists) if there were any running but that movement is quite small here compared to Europe. The only poll that counts is on election day and I have a feeling we may all be in for a surprise come the next few election cycles. Bart? How's your heart? I might have it checked, if you have one.

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  124. Anonymous8:09 PM

    DavidByron said...


    Cynthia McKinney seems more of a threat than either of them judging by how much time so-called liberals spend attacking her


    He's got a point.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Anonymous8:18 PM

    Re:McKinney


    You need to understand how bad-jacketing works. It was the forerunner of the swift boat manuever. Everybody does it, even the left. Anarchists may be many things but they are not neo-Nazis or fascists.

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  126. Anonymous8:19 PM

    richardbelldc writes:
    So we're drawing a line in the sand: if Mr. Bush does not consult with Democrats in the House and the Senate before submitting legislation, we are going to do everything in our power to stop his initiatives in their tracks: no judges, no tax cuts, no nothing.

    This is getting old. The Democrats WERE IN CHARGE OF THE SENATE, for Bush's first two years. They and Daschle followed your prescription for the most part and were defeated yet again with Daschle being tossed out altogether.

    Got any other ideas that don't come across as self-serving political posturing?

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  127. It's Washington that lives in a bubble. One often wishes it would float away on gossamer winds back to whatever galaxy those people come from.

    Kevin Phillips described this precise scenario a decade ago. He thought it was highly unlikely. He thought the Republicans would discredit themselves and the Democrats would reassert power. Instead, the Republicans have corrupted the Democrats so that the resolution to the national crisis increasingly looks like it will require replacing both parties. This is not desirable. It is from such anarchy that extremism takes power.

    But the Dems are doing precisely what John Kennedy warned against: making peaceful change impossible. I have never seen such reckless arrogance in politics. Never.

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  128. Anonymous8:40 PM

    If you think we've already sent the message, then what's the big deal about demanding our future CIA director reiterate that message under oath?

    First, why do you assume that the closed session would NOT be under oath? Secondly, I assume the subject of how prisoners are treated has something sensitive involved that Hayden doesn't want the whole world to know.
    What I couldn't tell you, but how would you feel about the IRS publishing your tax return on this blog? You have to be forthright with the IRS like Hayden does with Congress, but some things are best left private. And no, this is not a democracy.

    In other words, if Democrats take back the House, does that mean Republicans (and you) are wrong? You seem to imply that Republicans are right because they keep getting reelected, so I'm just wondering...

    In a general sense I'd say that's true. The collective decision making process reflects a self interest, and if Dems win then something they had as an issue resonated as more important than what Pubs are offering. That's why I think Pubs will win again. They have some real clunker ideas like immigration and spending, but most people understand that constant complaints alone don't feed the cat or keep it safe.

    So, again, I ask you, on what do you base your assertion that "the country still backs Bush by a wide margin"?

    Politicians are professional followers concerned with remaining in office over principle. Apparently they don't think they have an issue or a following solid enough to force an issue.

    Besides, what exactly are they going to go in with? They could rail about wiretapping but everytime they do, Hayden can just point out that it's not true and the railer will fall flat on his or her face. I will be so bold as to say there is no issue about which the Democrats can point to themselves as superior with which the voters will agree. I said voters, not nitwits that don't know who Dick Cheney is.

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  129. Anonymous8:52 PM

    cfaller96 asks bart: "When is an American citizen considered to be a "foreign agent"?

    bart replies, disingenuously: "The same way any other person is determined to be a foreign agent, they are found to be acting on behalf of the foreign group."

    cfaller96 asks, without much hope of a legitimate answer: "Found by whom?"

    bars answers: nothing at all.

    I'll tell you what the actual answer to that question is: by the administrative branch, unilterally, without judicial review, in violation of Amendments IV through VII.

    Do you have any other questions for bart to dance around without actually answering?

    Patrick Meighan
    Venice, CA

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  130. Anonymous8:52 PM

    The war on terrorism not only requires objective, independent intelligence analysis, it also requires us to strike a careful balance between our liberty and our security.

    Well, Mr. Levin, if you and Ms. Feinstein would get your lardasses off the scale, balance might be possible. But after all that's been leaked, the only thing that's been secured is your salary. And our liberty's drowning from the impact of Katrina Bush and you members of our FEMA Congress.

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  131. Anonymous8:55 PM

    shooter242: "I assume the subject of how prisoners are treated has something sensitive involved that Hayden doesn't want the whole world to know."

    Of course you do, because you're obedient and docile and you believe whatever your leaders tell you to believe. If it comes from the authorities, it must certainly be true.

    "And no, this is not a democracy."

    Well, thanks for being truthful at least.

    Patrick Meighan
    Venice, CA

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  132. Anonymous9:07 PM

    Digby is a moron that exists to do nothing but link to atrios and the rest of the faux "advertise liberally" circle of links.

    The ALL BLOG, NO ACTION crowd that takes credit for everything and blames everyone else for everthing else.

    If it weren't for that never ending circle of links, these blogs would be nothing... and actually, glenn is right -- they are much less than what they proclaim to the world to be.

    But don't take my word for it -- go to the sites and look for yourself. There is nothing but snark and insults and certainly no suggestions to do anything about anything.

    Its all about creating a "brand" and following the "circle of links."

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  133. Anonymous9:08 PM

    Democrats delenda est.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Anonymous9:23 PM

    Anonymous said...
    Digby is a moron that exists to do nothing but link to atrios and the rest of the faux "advertise liberally" circle of links.

    The ALL BLOG, NO ACTION crowd that takes credit for everything and blames everyone else for everthing else.

    If it weren't for that never ending circle of links, these blogs would be nothing... and actually, glenn is right -- they are much less than what they proclaim to the world to be.

    But don't take my word for it -- go to the sites and look for yourself. There is nothing but snark and insults and certainly no suggestions to do anything about anything.

    Its all about creating a "brand" and following the "circle of links."


    I'm reporting you to the Bureau. The Better Business Bureau because I think you are rabidly anti-business. I am also reporting you to the FBI, HUAC, the Secret Service, DHS, NSA and the Federal Do Not Call registry of the FTC, because I think you are advocating the violent overthrow of the government and you are obviously a communist. And very annoying, like a call from a telemarketer at supper time. How subversive.

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  135. Anonymous9:39 PM

    Cooties!: And no, this is not a democracy.


    Damn that Frenchman, Alexis de Tocqueville! And that historian, Sean Willentz. Liars! All liars! now we know that pootie has his tin foil wingnut badge.


    "Democracy" vs. "Republic"
    The definition of the word "democracy" from the time of ancient Greece up to now has not been constant. In contemporary usage, the term "democracy" refers to a government chosen by the people, whether it is direct or representative.

    In constitutional theory and in historical usages and especially when considering the works of the Founding Fathers of the United States, the word "democracy" refers solely to direct democracy (traditionally called pure democracy), whilst a representative democracy where representatives of the people govern in accordance with a constitution is referred to as a constitutional republic. Using the term "democracy" to refer solely to direct democracy retains some popularity in United States conservative and Libertarian debate.

    The original framers of the United States Constitution were notably cognizant of what they perceived as a danger of majority rule in oppressing freedom of the individual. For example, James Madison, in Federalist Paper No. 10 advocates a constitutional republic over a democracy precisely to protect the individual from the majority. [6] However, at the same time, the framers carefully created democratic institutions and major open society reforms within the United States Constitution and the United States Bill of Rights. They kept what they believed were the best elements of democracy, but mitigated by a constitution with protections for individual liberty, a balance of power, and a layered federal structure.

    Modern definitions of the term "republic", however, refer to any state with an elective head of state serving for a limited term, in contrast to most contemporary hereditary monarchies which are representative democracies and constitutional monarchies adhering to parliamentarism. Older elective monarchies are also not considered to be republics.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous9:44 PM

    Build a levee! Democracy is rising! We must stem the tide and stamp it out, so pootie doesn't feel oppressed!

    The Rise of American Democracy: Jefferson to Lincoln

    ReplyDelete
  137. Anonymous10:02 PM

    Representative democracy comprises a form of democracy and theory of civics wherein voters choose (in free, secret, multi-party elections) representatives to act in their interests, but not as their proxies—i.e., not necessarily as directed but with enough authority to exercise initiative in the face of changing circumstances. Modern liberal democracies are important examples of representative democracy. It could be argued that this term is synonymous with "republic".

    I really hate wignuts.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Anonymous10:10 PM

    David Barton is a Christian fundamentalist from the WallBuilders group. He wrote a book full of quotes from the Founding Fathers that really took the Atheist's take on the foundation of this country to task. Many people jumped to do the research to find out the validity of these quotes. Firms devoted to Madison and Jefferson became involved, universities got involved and ultimately the Library of Congress was the final resting place for these quotes.

    David Barton was cornered and he admitted to fabricating the quotes, okay he actually called them "spurious," but we all know that means he made them up. He was ordered to create a pamphlet that listed all his bogus quotes. Unfortunate that pamphlet has had almost zero impact on those use the quotes daily in newspapers around the United States.

    Here are some of the BOGUS quotes that you should immediately refute if you see them used in a letter to the editor, in an online forum, or anywhere else for that matter.

    1) "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!" - Patrick Henry

    2) "The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in morality and religion." - Abraham Lincoln

    3) "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." - George Washington

    4) "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extent, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian." - Holy Trinity v. U. S. (Supreme Court case)

    5) "The principles of all genuine liberty, and of wise laws and administrations are to be drown from the Bible and sustained by its authority. The man therefore who weakens or destroys the divine authority of that book may be assessory [sic] to all the public disorders which society is doomed to suffer." - Noah Webster

    6) "A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or eternal invader." - Samuel Adams

    7) "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves ... according to the Ten Commandments of God." - James Madison

    8) "There are two powers only which are sufficient to control men, and secure the rights of individuals and a peaceable administration; these are the combined force of religion and law, and the force or fear of the bayonet." - Noah Webster

    9) "Whosoever shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world." - Benjamin Franklin

    10) "The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next." - Abraham Lincoln

    11) "I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make us better citizens." - Thomas Jefferson


    If David Barton tells you the sky is blue, look outside. If pootie believes anything that Barton, (or Bart) or wingnuts like them say, he's an idiot and/or a liar, too

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  139. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  140. cfaller96 said...

    When is an American citizen considered to be a "foreign agent"?

    bart said: The same way any other person is determined to be a foreign agent, they are found to be acting on behalf of the foreign group.

    Found by whom?


    The intelligence community.

    bart said: You start with telephone numbers captured from al Qaeda operatives...You monitor these numbers by using a computer screening system looking for jihadi language...You then check common telephone call records against these numbers

    bart, this all sounds wonderful, but (assuming these telephone numbers are of American citizens) all of it can and should be done with a FISA warrant. I fail to see where it's necessary to do any of what you mentioned without a warrant.


    Congress has no Article I power to limit or eliminate the President's established Article II power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering.

    Even if this were not so, FISA does not apply to either surveillance of international calls or to the analysis of call data. By its own language, FISA warrants are required to listen in on electronic communications where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy. This is the term invented by the courts to determine when a warrant is required under the 4th Amendment. However, the courts have held that call data and international mail do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Therefore, analysis of call data definitely does not require a FISA warrant and is is doubtful that international calls would have any more luck than international mail.

    You may not think that's necessary, since in your mind it's all done for "intelligence gathering purposes", but don't you want to get these American citizens who are also members of al Qaeda? Wouldn't it be better to be able to use these surveillance records in a court of law, so we can prosecute, convict, and then jail those American citizens who have collaborated with al Qaeda?

    Under the Truong case, the government may introduce into evidence information gathered without a warrant so long as the primary purpose was intelligence gathering. You only need a warrant when law enforcement gets involved and the primary purpose transfers to gathering criminal evidence.

    bart said: It didn't take much research before I found the case law governing this question was all on the President's side.

    I've asked for this before, I'll ask for it again: please cite the post-FISA case law you are referring to. Post-FISA, bart, post-FISA. That means after 1978. Until you start backing up your claims, I'm going to think it's bulls--t, just like your "Iran/yellow stars for Jews" story was bulls--t.


    There is no requirement that any of the case law be post FISA. No provision of Article I gives Congress the power to limit or eliminate the President's established Article II power to gather intelligence. FISA simply does not limit this Article II power in any way. Both the FISA judges before Congress and the FISA court of review essentially conceded this point.

    bart said: No president can "waive" his constitutional powers to another branch by signing a statute

    But his Constitutional powers weren't "waived", they were merely restricted. Perhaps you think that's the same thing, in which case I'd like you to elaborate.


    It is the same thing. Legal waiver can be partial or complete.

    bart said: The fact that Carter chose not to use his powers is not binding on later Presidents.

    In fact Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II didn't challenge, and thus accepted, the Constitutionality of the statute.


    Laches, which essentially means the passage of time waives a right, does not apply to the Constitution. Nothing can change the Constitution except for the amendment process or an activist court exceeding its authority.

    but you should note that Bush II isn't claiming that FISA is un-Constitutional.

    Read the DOJ white paper on the subject. The government's position is the Article II trumps FISA if the courts do not find that FISA does not apply to the NSA Program.

    bart said: Yes he did [claim FISA was un-Constitutional]. Read Gorelick's testimony.

    Jamie Gorelick is a female, bart. I did read her testimony, did you? She never claimed that FISA was un-Constitutional. Feel free to cite passages from her testimony. Until you back this claim up, it's bulls--t.


    No, she argued that Clinton had the Article II authority to conduct intelligence gathering against a foreign agent by searching the house of the traitor Aldrich Ames, even though another statute required a warrant for searches of homes.

    bart said: Where the President has plenary or sole authority under the Constitution, Congress has no power to act in that area.

    And what area of the Constitution are we talking about, bart? War powers? Please elaborate.


    The President's powers to gather intelligence come from two provisions of Article II which make him the sole exerciser of executive authority and the CiC. The courts have repeatedly held for decades that this power includes intelligence gathering.

    In contrast, there is no provision in Article I which gives Congress the authority to choose the targets of, direct and conduct intelligence gathering. These are command functions.

    Please do not cite to the provision of Article I which speaks to the regulation of the Army and Navy. This provision involves the individual discipline of military members and is enforced through the UCMJ. No case has ever held that Congress may direct intelligence gathering through this provision.

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  141. Anonymous10:42 PM

    Love you Glenn, but here's the deal. Progressive bloggers, like us, worry about the country as a whole and the attendant Constitutional crisis. Rove and Company are more realistic (bad as I hate to agree with Bart); i.e. they cercern themselves only with the percentage (low percentage)that bothers to vote. Divide and conquer a small percentage of that vote and you control the country. Dems in Congress play to that dynamic for better or worse and the media that concerns itself with those who vote plays against them.

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  142. The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." One should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless and yet be determined to make them otherwise.

    F. Scott Fitzgerald

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  143. Anonymous11:00 PM

    Glenn,

    I think you are wrong Glenn to feel so depressed about the current situation. The reason is your apparent assumption that politicians are expected to be leaders. Nothing could be further from the truth. Politicians are expert followers. The true leaders are the whole people of the USA and they have been making themselves heard a lot lately. The people are incredibly frustrated and politicians who fail to heed that will be putting their careers at serious risk. Just remember that it is estimated that in 1776 less than 10,000 americans participated actively in the resistance to King George. Most people sat on their hands and pledged loyalty to the king. Pamphleteers just like today's bloggers kept the pressure on so likewise today the relatively small numbers of active bloggers are a not to be dismissed in terms off their influence on public opinion. My point is that most people are sheep and only a relatively few get themselves out of bed everyday to try to change the world and believe me politicians, in general, are no to be found in that number. Right now I feel the Dems are pursuing a carefully calibrated policy of "do nothing". Why? Well, I suspect that they believe and maybe rightly so that the neo-con ideology and conservative ideology as pursued by this White House is untenable in the long term just as communism was in its day and so it will collapse from the weight of its own illusions. Bush has become the American Putin.

    So why do I think you should be more positive? I believe that an incredible miracle has happened - the American people who have been force fed right wing propaganda by virtually every single news outlet and even by their own church minsters and lacking significant visible sources of dissent in the media have nonetheless realised the truth of the situation and are way ahead of most politicians. They are in revolt and precious little of that is being reported. Just a couple of days ago an acquaintance of mine witnessed a driver crash his car into a gasoline station as a protest against high gas prices. Of course it didn't make the local nightly news. I tell you the sea change in November will be something the likes of which has never been seen in american politics and it will be impossible for Congress to resist the call to investigate and impeach. People that used to be middle of the road independents are sounding like angry leftists and the statements "Bush may be incompetent but he means well" have all but disappeared. The voters now want more than just a change in Congress - they have been had and they want revenge. So when Clarence Thomas tells Doro Bush her brother is in trouble he knows what he's talking about.

    By the way, Hayden is a lying snake but as director of CIA he will be a lot more visible and accountable than as director of NoSuchAgency. He's been kicked downstairs into a thankless job and he won't be having a free hand as before. His first test is the Iran assessment requested by Congress and we will see how independent he really is.

    To my mind, Glenn, you and your fellow progressive bloggers are channeling all that is good and true about this Nation and doing battle in the face of serious odds but nothing worth winning was ever won easlily so keep your chin up and charge on. We will be right with you and the politicians will come along when it is safe.

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  144. Anonymous11:11 PM

    Suddenly an influx of 'anonymous' bloggers, with one attacking well read bloggers, complaining that they offer no solutions.

    Sorry, that's wrong. Many of them understand there's no simple answer. It requires multiple answers, like a building requires many bricks. And they regularly suggest ways to build and place each brick.

    They aren't infallible and don't claim to be. Some of their bricks may be weak, but conversation, debate and modification can strengthen almost every weak one.

    And, by not offering your own solutions, my first thought was 'et tu, brutus?'

    C'mon folks, if you're going to critique bloggers instead of those who we pay to represent us, put your name behind your stance. Otherwise, your claims are slushballs thrown by cowards hiding beneath MommyBlogger's skirts.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Anonymous11:17 PM

    Sunny: nice quote, very apt. You and many others here should still be blogging.

    ReplyDelete
  146. Anonymous11:42 PM

    bart tells us that an American citizen is considered to be a "foreign agent" when they "are found to be acting on behalf of the foreign group." When asked who, exactly, "finds" such American citizens to be foreign agents, he answers, quite simply: "The intelligence community."

    Translated, that means: "the administrative branch, unilterally, without judicial review, in violation of Amendments IV through VII." Just as I noted at 8:52pm.

    bart assumes we're incapable of putting 1 and 1 together. Hence, bart assures us one minute that the administration only exerts its unchecked unilateral power on foreign agents (not American citizens). And the next minute bart informs us that the administration unilaterally declares which American citizens are foreign agents (and thus no longer entitled to their constitutional rights and liberties).

    Conclusion: to the extent that any of us have freedoms, it's at the president's pleasure, and at the president's discretion, and may be revoked by him unilaterally.

    In other words, the Bill of Rights is dead.

    Patrick Meighan
    Venice, CA

    ReplyDelete
  147. One of the most memorable passages of the book Night by Elie Wiesel is a discussion he has with a fellow concentration camp prisoner as to rumors that the allied armies were advancing on them, and that they soon would be rescued. His comrade answered

    " I have more faith in Hitler than in anyone else. He alone has kept his promises, all his promises, to the Jewish people."

    It is disturbing, the faith that I see being put into Democrats winning control of the Congress, when I see so many of them -- like Feinstein -- facilitating and then covering up after the Lawbreaker in Chief.

    Putting Democrats into power will be utterly useless unless they are committed to acting on progressive principles and undoing the damage that's already been done.

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous12:03 AM

    Shooter242 said...

    "This is getting old. The Democrats WERE IN CHARGE OF THE SENATE, for Bush's first two years. They and Daschle followed your prescription for the most part and were defeated yet again with Daschle being tossed out altogether."

    This is getting old too but at that time Bush's poll numbers were a lot higher than the 29% that he is running now.

    ReplyDelete
  149. Anonymous12:07 AM

    As others have said here, and I and others have said elsewhere, Democrats are not behaving the way they are because they are afraid.

    They are doing things like voting for Hayden because they agree -- both with the General and with the interests that appointed him. They do not agree with us or with the people of the United States in general.

    Once we understand that, many things that are otherwise inexplicable make perfect -- if wrong -- sense.

    Sad to say.

    ReplyDelete
  150. Anonymous12:08 AM

    When people let IDEAS flow instead of personalities, we will have a start. If people think they are superior because of their cute, anonymous handles.... LOL!

    When discussions focus on the areas we can AGREE on, regardless of other philosophies, attitudes and values, we will be making progress.

    When we accept that the dollars we spend are the only "votes" that we control and know are accurately counted, we will get the lying liars attention (buyblue.org)

    In some cases, we may find relief in the courts, but 2000 demonstrated the integrity of that process - we were given a decision that said "you cannot tell who wins an election by actually counting the votes."

    Acceptance is the answer to our problems -- accepting that the world is not a set of actors on the stage and that everything would just be "perfect" if those actors played the roles that the "great deciders" assign (read: faux advertise liberally circle of links).

    Any number of things are possible when we talk about the BIG issues and allow people to take ownership of them instead of proclaiming that we will dictate the "roots".

    ReplyDelete
  151. Anonymous12:09 AM

    The biggest difference between democrats then and today:

    In 2003 they lied to us and said they were really republicans.

    Today, they lie to us and say they are really democrats.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Anonymous12:11 AM

    Democrats are not behaving the way they are because they are afraid.

    Good point - perhaps legitimately so in 2003, but there is no excuse today. Those that support our "great decider" are actually the "lunatic fringe" today.

    ReplyDelete
  153. Anonymous12:51 AM

    thebigerns said...

    "It is disturbing, the faith that I see being put into Democrats winning control of the Congress, when I see so many of them -- like Feinstein -- facilitating and then covering up after the Lawbreaker in Chief.

    Putting Democrats into power will be utterly useless unless they are committed to acting on progressive principles and undoing the damage that's already been done."


    Useless? Mabe, but even if it is, it is less useless than wringing your hands and complaining about what the Republicans are doing while they are running both houses and the executive.

    The real solution is a viable third party, but that isn't going to happen between now and November.

    An analogy: You are in a war with an enemy ten feet away from you and an unreliable friend one hundred feet away. Are you going to sit down and wring your hands and complain about how unreliable your friend is or are you going to suck it up, do something about the enemy, and worry about your unreliable friend later?

    ReplyDelete
  154. Glenn --

    I agree with each point of your analysis, especially the ending. The blogosphere's gathering mass and momemtum means we're collectively learning how to make the Internet count for human connectivity. Big hope in there.

    So when do we get to do remedies? When do even suggestions for remedies become topics that can be discussed? How do we get the blogosphere to stop dancing faster and faster with the emotional minutia so that we can find cerebral common ground on which to discuss big-picture remedies?

    I mean, we are awash in destructive analysis -- taking everything, ad nauseum, apart to show what's wrong. And there are edgy emotional flares at the slightest disagreement with some absurdity of closely-held, rigid ideology. So how do we get this ordinary-people enterprise to lighten up and settle down?

    When does anybody start doing constructive analysis? Showing how to put these messes back together with improvements? Showing how to put the big picture back together so that we end up with a species-mature governance that automatically centers on equality, rights, cooperation, and sustainability? Is there anybody out there who understands that we can shift this political dynamic of species-juvenile competition into something better?

    Is there anybody out there who sees that the solution is right under our noses? That we've already got it legally established in the constitutions of 24 states?

    Because, I gotta tell you, you make any attempt to do constructive analysis anywhere in the blogosphere right now, and the big-ego-tiny-minders come at you like flies to a corpse -- with a ba-freaking-jillion reasons to do nothing.

    Ray Stannard Baker was one of the all-stars of our first generation of investigative reporters -- late 1800s to early 1900s. He was an exposé machine of the "muckrakers", and he was a substantial thinker. In the early 1900s, he observed that one of the traits of muckraking was no remedies offered.

    It was OK to do that then. The societal outrage at the exposés was stellar. There were no end of money-power players to put deep pockets on the exposés and make positive things happen.

    Different deal today. Money-power has morphed into nearly pure evil. And it has had a seeming lock on squashing anything offensive to the gathering of obscenely excessive profits and power, starting about with the 1972 spawning of the Business Round Table.

    The secret societies figure in there somehow. We little people will never know details, but only the bubbleers pooh-pooh elitist culture enculturation at the Skull and Bones level, with Bilderbergers serving as the global governing elite for the wider elite culture.

    Unlike the stumbling blogosphere, the predators have been globally organizing and problem-solving with computers for about 35 years.

    So how do we tell our ordinary-people human resources -- significant enough collectively to scare the be-jesus out of any herd of silver-spooners -- that it's OK to slow-dance the minutia and borrow into remedies? How do we tell them that it's OK to listen to ideas that they themselves didn't spit up all over the keyboard?

    When do we get to do remedies?

    Stephen Neitzke
    Founder, Direct Democracy League
    http://ddleague-usa.net
    DD Revival -- The Blog
    http://ddrevival.blogspot.com

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  155. Anonymous1:19 AM

    Stephen Neitzke, anonimity has its advantages -- it isn't like having a "grand poobah" is going to make a global community decide to work towards a common good, positive change.

    Imagine the blogosphere being a conduit where people shared ideas without feeling compelled to correct anyone.

    Imagine a comment board where no one responded to a troll, just continued to present ideas.

    Imagine a dialog that was like a shmorgusboard -- take what you need, but leave the rest; take all you want, but eat all you take.

    The ideas we choose to agree on are important, but so is the way we choose to leave ideas.

    When "netroots" actually grow from the bottom up and not from someone that sees themselves as a "superblogger", then we might see change.

    The real question is, will they let that happen or do they prefer to be a dysfunctional bandleader.

    ReplyDelete
  156. HWSNBN misses the mark completely:

    Even if this were not so, FISA does not apply to either surveillance of international calls ...

    Nope. See 50 USC §1801(f)(2) for one (FISA applies "if such acquisition occurs in the United States"). And see 50 USC §1801(f)(1) for another. In this case, HWSNBN tries to argue that no one, not even a "U.S. person", has a "reasonable expectation of privacy" in making an international call. But that's far from clear. The same "reasonable expectation of privacy" clause is present in 50 USC §1801(f)(3), however, that clause stipulates additionally (for radio communications) that it applies to such communications only where "the sender and all intended recipients are located within the United States". If international communications per se have no "reasonable expectation of privacy", then the restriction of this clause to solely domestic communications is a nullity. One of the canons of statutory interpretation is not to read a provision of a law as to be a nullity.

    A similar argumnet can be made WRT 50 USC §1801(f)(1): If international communications are per se not "private", then this provision, following the form of the rest of the section, whould have specified solely domestic wire communications in this clause.

    ... or to the analysis of call data.

    HWSNBN is ... *SURPRISE!* ... wrong again. See 50 USC §1802, particularly 50 USC §1802(a)(1)(A)(ii).

    Of course, HWSBN is going to say "I was talking about the "analysis of call data". But we're talking about the snoops here; that is to say, the aqcuisition of such. If HWSNBN want to talk about "analysis", I'd have to say "Objection, Your Honour! Irrelevant!"

    There is no requirement that any of the case law be post FISA. No provision of Article I gives Congress the power to limit or eliminate the President's established Article II power to gather intelligence....

    The logical fallacy of "argument by repeated assertion" (otherwise known as "argumentum ad nauseam", although the troll HWSNBN tosses in a tinge of argumnetum ad ignorantiam here for good measure).

    ... FISA simply does not limit this Article II power in any way. Both the FISA judges before Congress and the FISA court of review essentially conceded this point.

    Nonsense on the face of it. The judges weren't issuing opinions (wouldn't that be HWSNBN's dread "advisory opinions", even if they did?), but they hardly sadi what HWSNBN says they did. This has been covered before on old thread by others. But as to the FISA court in In re: Sealed Case, they upheld the FISA law. But the FISA law unarguably "limits" what surveillance Dubya can do, and how he must do it. No getting around that. If HWSNBN is serious here, he has to insist that FISA is facially unconstitutional, and that any restriction it (or any legislation) places on any surveillance that Dubya wants to do is simply un-constitutional. According to HWSNBN, the courts cannot second-guess Dubya no matter what he does, because he's the King and "The Decider" and what he says is good for you is, indeed, good for you so siddown and shaddup.... To be fair, I believe that this was Glenn's point long ago, and long before I was pointing such out, so credit where credit is due.

    Tell it to the judge, Dubya!

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  157. HWSNBN is clueless again:

    [HWSNBN]: Yes he did [claim FISA was un-Constitutional]. Read Gorelick's testimony.

    [cfaller96]: Jamie Gorelick is a female, bart. I did read her testimony, did you? She never claimed that FISA was un-Constitutional. Feel free to cite passages from her testimony. Until you back this claim up, it's bulls--t.

    No, she argued that Clinton had the Article II authority to conduct intelligence gathering against a foreign agent by searching the house of the traitor Aldrich Ames, even though another statute required a warrant for searches of homes.

    Ummm: "[A]nother statute" is not "FISA". And there was no law concerning physical intelligence surveillances. Which is why they suggested that FISA be modified to include such (which was done and signed by Clinton). That's hardly a ringing denouncement of FISA as un-constitutional (as it was, or as it was subsequently modified). Except to dazed and confused minds like HWSNBN's....

    What a goofball!

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  158. HWSNBN dissembles:

    In contrast, there is no provision in Article I which gives Congress the authority to choose the targets of, direct and conduct intelligence gathering.

    "Red herring". No one has suggested that Congress did such a thing. Congress can likewise not direct Dubya to go out and arrest one Mr. Harold "Bart" DePalma for fraud and dishonesty (much as that would be cosmic karma of a high kind). But that they haven't done that either.

    Please do not cite to the provision of Article I which speaks to the regulation of the Army and Navy....

    "... it demolishes my argument .... wah-wah-waaaauuuggghhh."

    [snip ignorant nonsense about the UCMJ being the sole means of "regulation" of the military]

    No case has ever held that Congress may direct intelligence gathering through this provision.

    More fallacy of "argumentum ad ignorantiam".

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  159. Anonymous3:19 AM

    "Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee yesterday essentially assured ...a majority of the Democratic Committee members voted in favor of confirming Gen. Hayden:"

    Three votes NAY, and four votes YEA.

    Wow, what an overwhelming act by 'Democrats' on the committee.

    How dare those three Dems who voted NAY not uphold your thesis! It should have been unanimous, so you could really call them cowards.

    Glenn, you may have been the only politically-astute person in the U.S. who expected Feinstein, Mikulski, or Rockefeller to vote nay. Wow, what disappointment you must feel figuring out what all of us knew going in.

    Let's see if you can blame it on Reid. After all, it's his fault, right?

    And guess what? Feinstein and Levin are up for reelection this year -- UNOPPOSED.

    Mikulski is up in 2008, and Rockefeller in 2010. Will they be opposed, then?

    So you're jake -- you'll be able to blame the Dems as a whole for these four Senators for at least another decade.

    ReplyDelete
  160. Gray Wolf said:
    "The real solution is a viable third party, but that isn't going to happen between now and November.

    An analogy: You are in a war with an enemy ten feet away from you and an unreliable friend one hundred feet away. Are you going to sit down and wring your hands and complain about how unreliable your friend is or are you going to suck it up, do something about the enemy, and worry about your unreliable friend later?

    ---

    As you point out, a third party is not a viable solution... both parties have worked very hard to ensure it. So my only solution is to support Democrats who are committed to preserving the Republican policies they helped to facilitate? No thanks.

    The last civil chance would be to transform the Democratic party into a viable third party... What are the odds of that happening? Maybe it will come down to Gray Wolf's cloaked suggestion that we defend ourselves.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Glenn, have you read Liberty under Siege by Walter Karp? It's a revisionist history, published in 1988, of the Carter and Reagan presidencies and the strange role the congressional Democrats played in both, with a focus on government secrecy and domestic surveillance. His conclusion is the same one that several posters have mentioned here: The congressional Democrats were in fact playing a very bold and risky game on behalf of "Oligarchy" and against their constituents and their own professed beliefs. For him, the real struggle was between independent Democrats (like the feckless Carter) and machine Democrats, not between Democrats and Republicans. A bitter and eccentric book, but a very intense and well-argued one, and one whose argument has always haunted my own perceptions of congressional politics.

    Karp called them bipartisan enemies of democracy.

    Stephen McCarthur, of Orwell's Grave, worked as a staffer in D.C. during the Carter administration, and he said that he's never seen a President faced with so much opposition from his own party in his life.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous5:42 AM

    The confirmation of General Hayden is so dangerous on many different levels. First, there are obvious unanswered questions about the NSA spying program. Bush knew that nominating Hayden would be controversial - and that's exactly why he did it. He recognized the problems created by the USA Today cover story (among many others.) and he also knew that Hayden, who played an intimate role in the creation of the illegal program, would be grilled by some Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee. By nominating Hayden, and expeditiously confirming him, it's as if he was given another one of those "mandates" to persue his agenda; which, in this case, means violating the law on a massive scale by spying on innocent American citizens. When the chief architect of an illegal program practically strolls through what should have been a fierce debate unscathed, it sends the message that the program has been discussed, debated and validated; which is clearly not the case for anyone who actually follows these stories.

    I commend Sens. Feingold, Bayh and Wyden for their integrity. However, they failed to make one point which could have been very powerful. I would have asked the question this way:

    General Hayden. In December 2005, Judge John A. Robertson, a sitting member of the secret FISA Court, resigned in protest over President Bush's secret authorization of a domestic spying program. The FISA law lays out rather clearly the appropriate ways in which a domestic wiretap warrant is obtained. What does it say about the legality of the program when one of the judges who is charged with overseeing the legality, implementation and usage of the law in question, resigns in protest because he feels that law is being broken??

    Concise, powerful and perfect for a soundbite. Why none of the committee members didn't raise this issue is beyond me. The fact that an investigation did not rise out of General Haydens confirmation hearing is very disturbing. As Glenn clearly shows, this further illustrates the Democrats' cowardice even in the face of a severely weakened President and highly controversial program. Once the General is confirmed, the only Democrats I will respect are the ones who vote against him.

    ReplyDelete
  163. Glenn mentions 3 instances of defeat for Bush: Miers, torture, and Dubai. In reality, were any of these defeats?

    1) Miers was a wish and a prayer. Bush even himself amazed at his successes, tries to put a most pliant, fawning and demonstrably unqualified individual on the bench, 'cuz... who knows? maybe she makes it...? So, we settle for Alito, who despite whatever judicial qualities he may possess, and beyond any issue of conservative bias, most importantly seems to possess a legal opinion of broad executive power. Bush wins.

    2) Torture legislation -- this has already been shown for what it is, with Bush's executive end-around tactics. Indeed Glenn's post has a link to a WaPo article on Hayden that even mentions it for us again. Bush wins.

    3) Dubai Ports World -- "it ain't over 'til it's over." In the same spirit as this very post, after we have moved on to the next thing after the next thing, will we really be surprised to find someone unearthing an obscure newswire at some obscure moment saying that the deal has gone through? Or, that we should discover some deal does go through, which on the surface appears to not have anything to do with Dubai, but the dots are connectable for anyone willing to spend the effort? Do either of these scenarios seem implausible? Bush victory pending (but history shows it's in the bag).

    ReplyDelete
  164. Anonymous7:55 AM

    Maybe it will come down to Gray Wolf's cloaked suggestion that we defend ourselves.

    Because we "defend ourselves" no progress is possible. Unless you are committed to taking the lumps entailed in bucking the system, and it would require coordinated action on a mass scale, including work stoppages, refusal to buy certain products, like gasoline, moratoriums on credit card payments, loans and taxes, these kinds of actions... we are just licking the hand that holds the leash. Shut this country down is a better attack on the system than any actual bomb throwing. They aren't prepared for that. It's like the Spanish Inquisition. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. If a sizeable percentage of the population does that, it all crumbles, and it's "legal" but involves another kind of personal risk. Some direct action might need to be taken against "scabs" but that's no different than in any labor dispute.

    ReplyDelete
  165. Anonymous7:58 AM

    ender said...
    This is amazing. Am I missing something or does this mean that not only are the Republicans in favor of deregulating everything in sight but they also want corporations to be able to lie about their finances?


    That's all it's ever been about. You aren't the one missing anything. The other half of the population has missed it. Welcome to the new boss, corporations. Worse than the old boss... government.

    ReplyDelete
  166. Anonymous8:20 AM

    Hume's Ghost said... RE: Walter Karp

    Th reviews of that book at the time were what you would expect of the establishment press. It sounds like a good read. If the WaPo and the National Review panned it, (they both did), it must have struck a nerve as it hit the mark.

    The Vampires Descend
    Posted by James Wolcott
    Steve Gilliard, Atrios, and--well, just about every liberal blogger in whose veins decency flows is sounding the alarm about the appalling bankruptcy bill oozing through the Senate.

    This unleashing of legislative machinery to further crush and pauperize the weak and overwhelmed in America sent me back to one of the most depressing yet indispensible books I've read in recent years, Liberty Under Siege by the late Walter Karp, the brilliant, committed historian and journalist. (Harper's, for which Karp was a major contributor, regularly runs a small ad offering a four-book set of his works; that's where I purchased mine.)

    Liberty Under Siege covers the honeymoon glow and warm promise of Jimmy Carter's inauguration and how swiftly, brutally they were snuffed, not just by Republican opponents but entrenched Democrats with their honkers in the trough and the Washington press corps (esp the Wash Post), which set about to savage Hamilton Jordan and Bert Lance to teach the upstarts from Georgia who runs this town. Today, even sympathetic souls dismiss Carter as an "ineffectual" president who has done exemplary good works since, but Karp documents how the political establishment, military and Israeli lobbies, and media crippled Carter from the outset, cut him off at the ankles after his first few steps.

    In contrast, they knelt before Ronald Reagan with cupped hands, drinking in his every smile and aw-shucksy anecdote, abetting and rescuing him time and again from his own fatuous follies. Polls showed that the American people then were far less enamored of Reagan than the press, but the press listened only to itself and its masters. Whenever Reagan went too far, they and the Beltway crowd lay down to cushion his fall.

    In 1982, the president brought out a proposed budget that revealed the true face of "the Reagan Revolution."

    "Stunning, shocking, brutal, a savage affront to justice in this second installment of the 'Reagan Revolution.' The military buildup, like a ravening beast, eats through the fisc once more... And how shall the military Moloch be fed? On last year's cruel diet: the poor, the ill, the handicapped, the schools, local services, student loans, enforcement of laws--$43.4 billion of 'deficit reduction,' exact counterbalance to the military's deficit production. A lying budget as well, forecasting declining deficits, 'out and out cooked,' says [David Stockman]..."

    Reagan's approval numbers dropped to 47%, and the Democrats have a huge majority in the House to stop this pillaging. Do they? No, the bipartisan, balm-spreading spirit of majority leader Tip O'Neill prevails.

    "...the hundred-seat majority takes pains not to harm the President by forcing him to veto popular programs, acts of justice, compassionate deeds. Why not give him bills to not-sign, asks Richard Ottinger, the angry, anguished liberal Democrat. Let us restore student loans; it would 'sail through Congress' and let Reagan veto *that.* But the leadership will not allow it. the grinding of the poor is producing real misery and ugly neglect... Three of five Americans polled this June think Reagan favors 'the upper income people.' ...When Reagan threatens to veto a $1 billion appropriation for 'politically popular programs,' reports Congressional Quarterly, Democratic leaders, in panic, reduce it to $98 million, vetoing it themselves to spare Reagan the burden. '[Tip] O'Neill has given the ball game to Reagan,' says Ottinger, given the country to Reagan, given the American people to Reagan.

    "Given tyranny to the American people, for the Right's assault on the Republic grows more intense than ever this year, becomes a kind of mad, jeering defiance that almost unmasks itself."

    Under George W. Bush, the mask is completely cast aside, the jeering defiance in full cry. The bankruptcy bill, the renomination of rejected or blocked judges, the enthronement of America's first Attorney General of Torture, the refusal to even admit the looming disaster of global warming, the arrogant insult to the UN and the diplomatic world with the nomination of John Bolton as UN ambassador--Bush's second term is a triumphal Fuck You that the pundits and cable newsers will interpret as a jaunty thumbs-up, not possessing enough self-respect even to mind being played for fools.

    03.08.05 11:32AM

    ReplyDelete
  167. Anonymous9:40 AM

    I hope that bloggers and internet activists may make a difference. And that's why it's important to support net neutrality, so that all liberal bloggs will be accessible in the future, too. The battle is on:

    Net neutrality fans pressure U.S. Senate
    http://news.com.com/Net+neutrality+fans+pressure+U.S.+Senate/2100-1028_3-6076231.html

    Pls join that good fight! Call your Senator today and tell her/him that Senate must protect net neutrality to keep the Internet free and open to all!

    You’ll find contact info here:
    http://www.savetheinternet.com/callcongress.php

    ReplyDelete
  168. anonymous wrote --

    When "netroots" actually grow from the bottom up and not from someone that sees themselves as a "superblogger", then we might see change.

    The real question is, will they let that happen or do they prefer to be a dysfunctional bandleader.

    I'm really trying to understand why the netroots can't seem to walk and chew gum at the same time. I see nothing wierd about doing destructive analysis AND doing remedies at the same time.

    Let me get this straight. As soon as I encourage the netroots to start doing remedies, I'm suddenly the grand poobah who wants to lead everyone around by the nose?

    How do you make that leap?

    More importantly, how do you think that your making that ad hominen leap frees you from the simple human responsibility to deal with the issue of we-all-need-remedies-here? Ultimately, there is no escape from the issues by attacking the man, shooting the messenger.

    I'm a 60-something guy who's paid attention for a very long time. I'm not what your ad hominen attack characterizes me to be.

    But will I just let the netroots happen -- any which way they please? Will I ignore my human responsibility to say, hey, wait just one damn minute, you're missing a big opportunity here? Will I not say, look, collectively we have human resources we haven't even dreamt of yet? Will I be silent about our need to start using some of those resources for organizing and problem-solving?

    Oh, hell no.

    So, you want to snicker behind your anonymity while you slam the stupidities of ad hominins around and brand my real name as laughable "superblogger" and "dysfunctional bandleader", you just have at it. Because it is thinking like yours -- notice, not people like you, always separate the man from his works -- that keeps the netroots in one place, dancing faster and faster.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Arne Langsetmo -- enjoying your logically sharp posts, no end. People who will not be led around by the nose are on my good-guys list. You get my vote for inclusion on the litigation team that takes Bushco to court.

    ReplyDelete
  170. Anonymous10:43 AM

    THE POLITICAL DIFFERENCE

    Vote Libertarian! It's the only way we can get elected! We will make it legal for you to sell your kidney! You've got a spare!

    ReplyDelete
  171. Anonymous10:47 AM

    Stephen Neitzke said...

    “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”

    Mahatma Gandhi

    Stop making sense and they will leave you alone.

    ReplyDelete
  172. Anonymous10:54 AM

    You know, I have become a lurker here; seldom reading all the comments. Mostly because those here tolerate the comments of an ignorant pig like Mr. Langsetmo in silence. But I do continue to read Mr. Greenwald’s posts. Anyway, there is some wisdom for liberals -- in “The New Yorker” let me hasten to add (since most liberals read only liberal sources); that some commenters here could sorely use. For example:

    ”In the exit polls of the 2004 Presidential election, one out of every five voters identified himself to pollsters as a liberal, while one out of every three self-identified as conservative. The conservative base is simply bigger than the liberal base, and Rove is not wrong when he says that this is essentially a center-right country. So liberals must do more to reach the moderates. In many states, liberals need to win as much as seventy or seventy-five per cent of moderates in order to win. ... Why are liberalism and condescension equated so easily?
    The Princeton historian Sean Wilentz says that Democrats are motivated by humanitarianism. Humanitarians want to make people better, and when you set out to try to make people better you often end up condescending to them. Adult Americans don’t want to have somebody who doesn’t know them telling them how to live their lives.”


    Decrying Mr. Lieberman and his ilk is self-destructive; why would a smart liberal do it? IMHO a smart liberal would be seeking some moderate support. That appears to be what those Democrats who really know about politics are doing.

    ReplyDelete
  173. However, the courts have held that call data and international mail do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

    Why can't you stop lying??!!!
    You've already admitted that "call data" has not been ruled upon by the court. Keep clapping bart. Maybe Tinkerbell isn't dead after all!

    ReplyDelete
  174. Anonymous11:01 AM

    Stephen Neitzke, give me a break - you didn't read that post, just copied-and-pasted what you thought you could jump on.

    Make all of the suggestions you want, if you have a condenscending attitude about everyone else (and I am just saying, I will keep that opinion to myself) we both know it won't motivate others to join you.

    There is a HUGE difference between sharing ideas (which requires listening to others) and sitting up an a grand throne and ordering the minions what to do -- especially when the entire thrust of the proclaimations is:

    But KANSAS should just do what I tell them too do...

    We both know that roots are pushed up from the bottom, not pulled up from the top by someone that sees themselves as a savior or the ultimate source of all that is right and tastee.

    ReplyDelete
  175. Anonymous11:03 AM

    Stephen Neitzke, proclaiming yourself superior to people that prefer to talk ideas instead of personalities is not going to help.

    But I assume you are much to important to even consider that...

    There are advantages to putting the discussion on the ideas and not the personalities, but if you refuse to accept that, I can live with it too.

    Hey, if it makes you feel better than everyone else...

    But that attitude does reak through everything you post.

    ReplyDelete
  176. Anonymous11:08 AM

    Sorry, the link was bad. This is the correct link.

    ReplyDelete
  177. Anonymous11:12 AM

    ...[O]ur sages in the great [constitutional] convention
    ...intended our government should be a republic which differs more widely from a democracy than a democracy from a despotism. The rigours of a despotism... often oppress only a few, but it is the very essence and nature of a democracy, for a faction claiming to oppress a minority, and that minority the chief owners of the property and truest lovers of their country.

    Fisher Ames, American statesman, 1805



    [Fisher Ames]... opposed the American Founders, arguing that Liberty leads to immorality and the corruption of Christianity. This notion is based in the Calvinistic teaching of Total Depravity of the human soul, which, according to Calvinistic dogma, means that even human behavior can never be anything other than completely wicked -- unless the humans in question are placed under the strict rule of a Calvinistically interpreted Biblical law.

    Fortunately for us, the past 200 or so years of history have shown him to have been in error. So wide from the mark was he, in regards to whether humans are able to govern themselves, that most formerly Calvinistic sects have since modernized, and what few remain must strain themselves to even present the Calvinistic position -- much less argue their case in the public forum. When Jefferson spoke of those who would destroy the protections given to us by our Constitution, he most certainly had Fisher Ames in mind.

    The flaws of Calvinism are that if all humans are depraved, then how can any human government be superior to any other? Another flaw is shown by asking the question, "How do you know that this is the Word of God?" In other words, if all are depraved, then how can we trust the assessment of this or that theologian when it comes to determining what is good (that is, what is of God)? We really can't. I am so utterly depraved, says the Calvinist, that I need for God to personally enlighten me to the truth. However, if I were that depraved, then it seems that I wouldn't recognize the truth it if it walked up and slapped me in the face.

    Thus it becomes necessary to allow for at least some human competency when it comes to moral questions. And if any competency can be allowed, then what is the criteria for determining just who is and is not competent to judge, for example, whether or not this or that oracle is genuinely of God. Sprinkle this foundation with a liberal dose of the idea that Satan comes down and deceives people about such matters and one can become quite paranoid, unable to trust even oneself, much less anybody else (particularly God). But we are commanded to trust God nonetheless, and so we are, by believing Calvinism, being placed in an impossible situation.

    No wonder such thinkers as Ingersoll routinely described Calvinists as the most miserable of humans. Calvinism, to me, is the very antithesis of Jeffersonian Democracy, of the Human Liberty espoused by Franklin, Paine, Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, and all the leaders of the movement that ended up winning the American Revolution.

    When Jefferson said he had "sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" (his lowercase), he was speaking against a certain specific group of clergymen who wished to establish a Christian (Calvinistic) rule in America, usurping the self-rule that Liberty gives to those who work and fight hard enough to accomplish establishing her way of life as the most superior form of human government.

    Most certainly he had in mind clergymen such as Fisher Ames, who was one of the most brilliant opponents of what America is all about that America has ever seen. I would venture to say that so competently did Fisher Ames argue against human competency that he ended up refuting his own position!

    Cliff Walker

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  178. Anonymous11:12 AM

    IMHO a smart liberal would be seeking some moderate support.

    Good start, well said. How about this one:

    a smart liberal would be seeking A WIDE VARIETY OF SUPPORT ON ISSUES THAT DIRECTLY AFFECT MOST AMERICANS

    There are plenty of "liberal" people, only 1/2 the population shows up to vote for POTUS anyhow.

    Instead of using the 'net to proclaim who is and isn't a liberal and who is too far to the left or right, we just talk about equity and socio-economic issues that allow people to raise their children and families with dignity.

    This dialog could generate support across a wider spectrum, it would motivate more to vote (that is our real problem), and would directly appeal to even places like KANSAS that were once progressive/liberal places too.

    The "L" word has been hijacked - demonized by the right and made an social club on the left.

    And then we scratch our head and wonder why only 1/2 the population votes and less than 1/2 of that group votes democrat at a national level.

    The faux "advertise liberally" group may proclaim they are the real mccoy but they exist to divide us and brand a political agenda on their terms.

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  179. Anonymous11:15 AM

    Vote Libertarian! We will make it for you to marry puppies and start the man-on-dog thing at an early age.

    We will create a world where everyone is out for themselves and has the right to do what they want. The only "village" that matters is your wallet. Take while the gittin' is good and make someone else pay for it.

    "Libertarian" in the truest sense.

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  180. Anonymous11:16 AM

    The faux "advertise liberally" group may proclaim they are the real mccoy but they exist to divide us and brand a political agenda on their terms.

    This is a new logical fallacy, the ad ad hominid attack.

    This guy is obvioulsy an ad executive, the ad hominid.

    ReplyDelete
  181. anonymous -- Yes, your trollish control of your little world is complete. Nobody's words or thoughts count except yours. Keep dancing faster and faster.

    ReplyDelete
  182. stephen neitzke:

    Arne Langsetmo -- enjoying your logically sharp posts, no end.

    Thanks. Others may disagree. I am one of those that harass "[student] criminal prosecutor" HWSNBN and other RW foamers to no end, and there is a contingent here than think that responding to trolls is counterproductive and only encourages them. That may be true, but their nonsense and falsehoods also need to be pointed out for what they are. And who knows; if we embarrass them enough, they may STFU eventually (I do notice that HWSNBN does run from a thread once he's been smacked down hard enough; sadly he just starts the same ol' crapola on a new thread, which is why I wouldn't be averse to a limit of one post -- period -- making a particular claim, and a ban on subsequent posts that say the very same thing with no new "argument" or support).

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  183. Anonymous11:23 AM

    Bwahahaha!

    Check out where notherbob's first link goes to. You are a clown, for me to poop on!

    ReplyDelete
  184. Anonymous11:24 AM

    shooter242 said:
    First, why do you assume that the closed session would NOT be under oath?

    I don't. I didn't make that clear, although I thought it was included in my original question. I apologize for the confusion. What I'm demanding is a public statement that is also under oath.

    shooter242 said:
    Secondly, I assume the subject of how prisoners are treated has something sensitive involved that Hayden doesn't want the whole world to know. What I couldn't tell you...

    But, as I said before, and as you agreed, the McCain Amendment has already told the world that we don't torture, and that's what the question dealt with. Reaffirming publicly and under oath that we don't torture does not divulge any extra "sensitive" information. It's a simple statement: "No, I will not authorize torture." There's nothing "sensitive" there- do you disagree?

    Also, I just plain did not understand your response to why you think the country still supports Bush. I was looking for facts, figures, polls, etc. and instead you gave me reasons why Democrats suck. I don't necessarily disagree that Democrats suck, but that is independent of whether the country supports Bush.

    So, again, I ask you, on what do you base your assertion that "the country still backs Bush by a wide margin"?

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  185. notherbob2:

    You know, I have become a lurker here; seldom reading all the comments. Mostly because those here tolerate the comments of an ignorant pig like Mr. Langsetmo in silence.

    See, Stephen? Sometimes it works.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  186. Anonymous11:29 AM

    Arne... Thanks. Others may disagree. I am one of those that harass "[student] criminal prosecutor" HWSNBN and other RW foamers to no end, and there is a contingent here than think that responding to trolls is counterproductive and only encourages them.

    It's counterproductive for some people to get all meta about who comments, and how they do so, and to whom. Some, who are suited for it, should do precisely what you do. Others just come here to point and giggle, (that's harassment, BTW), but never at you Arne. Keep at it.

    :)

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  187. Anonymous11:31 AM

    Stephen Neitzke, feel free to say what you want - I don't really have any concern other than to point out that your baiting and condenscending attitude that anyone that doesn't worship your every idea and tell your your a genius is somehow a troll.

    But post what you want and see if you can actually get anyone that is not already in lockstep with you in sinc with your verions of "liberal" or whatever you call it.

    In the meantime, some of the rest of us are willing to entertain other ideas.

    Guess that is not something within your world view, but we can live without you - can't really do any worse politically than what you have to show for your rants and blog.

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  188. notherbob2 [quoting an article]:

    ”In the exit polls of the 2004 Presidential election, one out of every five voters identified himself to pollsters as a liberal, while one out of every three self-identified as conservative. The conservative base is simply bigger than the liberal base, and Rove is not wrong when he says that this is essentially a center-right country...."

    The RW Mighty Wurlitzer has been working mightily for many years to make "lib'rul" into an epithet (see, e.g., Gingrich's "talking points" from the early 90's about language).

    But when you poll people about specific issues, you find out that there's a bit more support for many of the things that liberals (in general) stand for and that conservatives do not....

    Then there's the fact that about half the people chose "neither" as an appellation....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  189. Anonymous11:32 AM

    ban on subsequent posts that say the very same thing with no new "argument" or support).

    as long as it isn't on your circlular arguments ad naseum, right?

    Well, I will give you credit for being direct...

    ReplyDelete
  190. Anonymous11:36 AM

    The RW Mighty Wurlitzer has been working mightily for many years to make "lib'rul" into an epithet (see, e.g., Gingrich's "talking points" from the early 90's about language).

    Good point, but don't kid yourself, the demonization is also happening on the so-called left as when the faux "advertise liberally" and circle of links promotes the idea that those that are blessed by the grand poobahs are worthy of discussion.

    Our real challenge is just to connect with more people and build concensus for change among people that may not want to be part of a given "brand" of snark.

    ReplyDelete
  191. Anonymous11:40 AM

    OOH OOOH OOOOH OOOOOH OOOOOOH OOOOOOOH!!!

    LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME!

    I'm Stephen Neitzke and you're not!!!!!

    Now shut up and do as your told.

    And when we lose again, its all your fault.

    ReplyDelete
  192. Patrick Meighan said...

    bart tells us that an American citizen is considered to be a "foreign agent" when they "are found to be acting on behalf of the foreign group." When asked who, exactly, "finds" such American citizens to be foreign agents, he answers, quite simply: "The intelligence community."

    Translated, that means: "the administrative branch, unilterally, without judicial review, in violation of Amendments IV through VII." Just as I noted at 8:52pm.


    1) Judges do not conduct intelligence gathering. Indeed, the oft cited Justice Jackson, in Chicago & Southern Air Lines, had this to say about he incompetence of the Judiciary to conduct intelligence gathering:

    The President, both as Commander-in-Chief and as the Nation’s organ for foreign affairs, has available intelligence services whose reports are not and ought not to be published to the world. It would be intolerable that courts, without the relevant information, should review and perhaps nullify actions of the Executive taken on information properly held secret. Nor can courts sit in camera in order to be taken into executive confidences. But even if courts could require full disclosure, the very nature of executive decisions as to foreign policy is
    political, not judicial. Such decisions are wholly confided by our Constitution to the political departments of the government, Executive and Legislative. They are delicate, complex, and
    involve large elements of prophecy. They are and should be undertaken only by those directly responsible to the people whose welfare they advance or imperil. They are decisions of a
    kind for which the Judiciary has neither aptitude, facilities nor responsibility and which has long been held to belong in the domain of political power not subject to judicial intrusion or inquiry.


    2) As I have cited well over a dozen times now, the courts have repeatedly held that warrantless intelligence gathering does not violate the 4th Amendment. Heaven knows how you are implicating any other amendment into this issue.

    ReplyDelete
  193. Anonymous11:53 AM

    bart said:
    Congress has no Article I power to limit or eliminate the President's established Article II power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering.
    ...
    Nothing can change the Constitution except for the amendment process or an activist court exceeding its authority.


    Does this apply if a President submits to Congressional oversight (by signing FISA into law), and later Presidents obey that law? I suspect I already know your answer, but I'd like you to explain it.

    bart said
    Under the Truong case, the government may introduce into evidence information gathered without a warrant so long as the primary purpose was intelligence gathering. You only need a warrant when law enforcement gets involved and the primary purpose transfers to gathering criminal evidence.

    I don't think the Truong case (1982, right?) means what you think it means. For one, the person in question was not an American citizen. Please cite the passage(s) you're referring to that allows warrantless surveillance to be introduced as evidence.

    bart said:
    The government's position is the Article II trumps FISA if the courts do not find that FISA does not apply to the NSA Program.

    Poorly worded, so I'll rephrase: the government's position is that Article II trumps FISA if the courts do find that FISA does apply to the NSA Program.

    Perhaps you are right, perhaps the Bush Administration is making that claim. A point I would make, though, is that this claim is being made after the crime, or rather after the Administration was caught violating FISA.

    You may not think that means anything, but it means a lot to me. I don't think the Administration seriously believes that FISA is un-Constitutional, I believe the Administration is simply throwing that argument out there as a possible defense of the illegal activity.

    I refer you to the PATRIOT Act as evidence that the Administration believed that FISA was Constitutional. Why would the Administration ask for, receive, and then praise amendments to a law it believed was un-Constitutional? I would love for you to answer this question.

    bart said:
    No, [Gorelick] argued that Clinton had the Article II authority to conduct intelligence gathering against a foreign agent by searching the house of the traitor Aldrich Ames

    That is a far, far cry from claiming FISA is un-Constitutional. You're spinning your wheels here.

    Bart, now that we've established that you believe that FISA is un-Constitutional, I have some additional questions. On a more general level, do you believe in checks and balances? Less generally, do you believe in a Legislative (Article I) check on abuse of Executive (Article II) power? More specifically, if you don't believe that FISA is a valid (i.e. Constitutional) Legislative check on Executive power, then what would you suggest in its place?

    You do agree that surveillance power should be checked against abuse, don't you? How would you propose to do that?

    ReplyDelete
  194. Anonymous11:58 AM

    "Due to their really pitiful passivity, they are every bit as much to blame for the excesses and abuses of the administration as the compliant Republicans are." This says it all. The Democrats currently in office are pitifully passive, this making them as much to blame as the other side. It just pisses me off that words fly, words most often having questionable meaning and then the Democrats go and give up the battle. Shouldn't they be raising hell? I'll bet these four Democrats are incumbents who wish to protect their cushiony jobs that pay well and have lots of benefits that the rest of us do not have. I refuse to vote in these next elections for any incumbents even if I have to vote for some third party. All these people can kiss off. They are going to get what they dish out.

    ReplyDelete
  195. Anonymous11:59 AM

    Our real challenge is just to connect with more people and build concensus for change among people that may not want to be part of a given "brand" of snark.

    Do you have any idea how many "Kids from Brooklyn" there are out there? More of them than there are Arnes or Pauls or even Barts. The Kid from Brooklyn wouldn't know one brand of snark from another. You are all just wise-assed college boys to him. And the Kid is starting to sound like a "predatory socialist" if you ask me.

    ReplyDelete
  196. anonymous:

    as long as it isn't on your circlular [sic] arguments ad naseum, right?

    Huh? FWIW, if HWSNBN doesn't repeat his "argument by repeated assertion", I won't repeat pointing it out for such. Problem solved.

    Well, I will give you credit for being direct...

    At least I proffer an opinion. And am willing to defend such by means other than ignoring the "inconvenient" responses and repeating the same ol' assertions.

    Just a curious question: How many links have you ever see HWSNBN put into his posts? For that matter, how many quotes (granted there's a few there, but as had been pointed out, he tends to snip even these out of context)?

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  197. cfaller96 said...

    bart said: Congress has no Article I power to limit or eliminate the President's established Article II power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering.
    ...
    Nothing can change the Constitution except for the amendment process or an activist court exceeding its authority.

    Does this apply if a President submits to Congressional oversight (by signing FISA into law), and later Presidents obey that law? I suspect I already know your answer, but I'd like you to explain it.


    Think of it this way. The only way you can change the Constitution is through the amendment process. Therefore, Congress cannot enact a statute eliminating the President's veto power. The fact that the President signs such a statute does not make it any more effective. A branch may not voluntarily give away any of its powers. There is a whole body of law on this subject when Congress attempted to give away several of its powers to executive administrative agencies.

    bart said: Under the Truong case, the government may introduce into evidence information gathered without a warrant so long as the primary purpose was intelligence gathering. You only need a warrant when law enforcement gets involved and the primary purpose transfers to gathering criminal evidence.

    I don't think the Truong case (1982, right?) means what you think it means. For one, the person in question was not an American citizen. Please cite the passage(s) you're referring to that allows warrantless surveillance to be introduced as evidence.


    I do not have access to the text of this case for a cut and paste. However, here is the cite: United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1144 (1982).

    bart said: The government's position is the Article II trumps FISA if the courts do not find that FISA does not apply to the NSA Program.

    Poorly worded, so I'll rephrase: the government's position is that Article II trumps FISA if the courts do find that FISA does apply to the NSA Program.

    Perhaps you are right, perhaps the Bush Administration is making that claim. A point I would make, though, is that this claim is being made after the crime, or rather after the Administration was caught violating FISA.


    For what it is worth, it appears to me that Justice is bending over backwards to have the court avoid declaring FISA entirely unconstitutional.

    FISA came under furious assault from civil liberties groups when it was enacted because it is essentially a secret court granting warrants on a fairly liberal basis.

    Justice justifiably believes that FISA is an enormously useful tool in criminal justice enforcement for national security cases. Far from bypassing FISA, the Bush Administration is the most frequent user of FISA, obtaining nearly double the warrants after 9/11 than other presidents did before.

    The danger of arguing that Congress exceeded its powers in applying FISA to intelligence gathering is that a court may go beyond the immediate issue and also declare some or all of its criminal justice functions unconstitutional.

    IMHO, that is why Justice is leading off with the argument that the AUMF suspended FISA for the purposes of this war when most other commentators start with the fact that FISA is unconstitutional when applied to Article II intelligence gathering.

    I refer you to the PATRIOT Act as evidence that the Administration believed that FISA was Constitutional. Why would the Administration ask for, receive, and then praise amendments to a law it believed was un-Constitutional? I would love for you to answer this question.

    The Administration believed from the outset that Congress did not have the power to limit or eliminate its Article II authority to gather intelligence. Therefore, what would be the purpose of amending FISA since there is no form which would be constitutional so long as it attempted to limit Article II?

    Moreover, to amend FISA to allow the NSA Program would have by necessity required public discussion of that top secret program, which is insane.

    Bart, now that we've established that you believe that FISA is un-Constitutional, I have some additional questions. On a more general level, do you believe in checks and balances? Less generally, do you believe in a Legislative (Article I) check on abuse of Executive (Article II) power? More specifically, if you don't believe that FISA is a valid (i.e. Constitutional) Legislative check on Executive power, then what would you suggest in its place?

    Its called the power of the purse. See the proposed bill denying funding for the NSA programs not complying with FISA which Glenn discussed in the thread above.

    You do agree that surveillance power should be checked against abuse, don't you? How would you propose to do that?

    The way it is being done now - having members of Congress of both parties oversee the program. I trust the partisan bias of the opposing party to keep an eye on the President.

    ReplyDelete
  198. anonymous:

    [Arne]: The RW Mighty Wurlitzer has been working mightily for many years to make "lib'rul" into an epithet (see, e.g., Gingrich's "talking points" from the early 90's about language).

    Good point, but don't kid yourself, the demonization is also happening on the so-called left as when the faux "advertise liberally" and circle of links promotes the idea that those that are blessed by the grand poobahs are worthy of discussion.

    Look, I'm pretty independent myself (and write a lot of my own thoughts and opinions, and don't just point to the "Grand Poobahs" of the left, be they the DLC ones or the reigning champs in the blogosphere). I don't see the "advertise liberally" crew as exclusionary, monolithic, arrogant, or any such thing. You may get flayed by at least some of the denizens if you offer your own opinions, but that's just the nature of the game; no one tries (very hard, at least) to shut you up. Hell, they even tolerate the RW obvious trolls and foamers (but do make fun of them). Don't feel "excluded" or ostracised if you can't make them see the wisdom of your words; I'm sure they feel the same way about you, and would rather persuade you than clobber you with some kind of label for disagreeing.

    We all have the same big enemy right on our doorstep, and we have to keep our eyes on the task at hand. Don't let the slights get you down. Consider for a moment and you might see how fortunate you are that I don't turn both barrels on you just for fun (had I any inclination to do so) ... now that would be "intolerant".

    Learn to accept disagreement and even criticism and get on with the job. The right managed to do this a long time ago, and that's part of the reason we're where we're at.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  199. 1) Judges do not conduct intelligence gathering. Indeed, the oft cited Justice Jackson, in Chicago & Southern Air Lines, had this to say about he incompetence of the Judiciary to conduct intelligence gathering:...

    Judges are intrinsically no better and no worse at evaluating "intelligence gathering" matters than, say, G. Gordon Liddy. That being said, no one is suggesting that judges actually get on the poles and put the taps is. That's a "straw man".

    But as for the legality of snoops, there's perhaps no better experts at this than independent judges. That's why the Constitution prescribes "magistrates" to sign off on search warrants. How anyone can insist anything different is beyond me.

    Curious note: The "Word Verification" here was "aum[t]f".... Coincidence? Maybe...

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete