Sunday, May 07, 2006

The Bush administration is radical, but not ideological

There have been several interesting responses to the post I wrote regarding the emerging (and largely unprincipled) effort by conservatives to disassociate their political movement from the wildly unpopular George Bush by now proclaiming that Bush is not only a non-conservative, but is actually a liberal. The goal seems to be to ensure that liberalism, rather than conservatism, is to be blamed for Bush's collapsed presidency.

The branding of Bush as a "liberal" is something that appeared in this National Review article by Jonah Goldberg, and my subsequent exchange with Goldberg has spawned further posts on the subject -- including this reasonably substantive new reply from Goldberg himself, this thorough examination from Hunter at Daily Kos of how self-proclaimed "conservatives" actually govern (as opposed to how they theorize), and this not particularly coherent protest from Josh Trevino (at the new, "interestingly" named blog Swords Crossed), which almost entirely misses all of the points that have been made. I wanted to post a further reply because I think these issues are both interesting and important.

(1) My initial post on this topic argued that as a result of the irreversible collapse of Bush's popularity, conservatives have gone from criticizing specific policies of Bush's as insufficiently conservative (something which, I acknowledge, is not new), to actually insisting that he is not a conservative at all, and in Goldberg's case, that he is actually a liberal (something that is strikingly new). When Bush was popular, criticisms from conservatives were always premised on the unchallenged notion that Bush was a conservative, just not always ideologically pure. But now that he is unpopular, we hear that he is not and never was conservative at all, and might even be a liberal -- a significant, even fundamental shift.

In his latest response, Goldberg acknowledges that he "has long criticized Bush's compassionate conservatism as a form of conservatism I don't like, rather than as a form of liberalism." But Goldberg claims that this distinction is "lawyerly and more than a little intellectually dishonest" because his labeling of Bush as a "liberal" was surrounded by caveats and exceptions.

It is, to put it mildly, rather bizarre to watch people claim that there is nothing notable or new about calling George Bush a "liberal" -- caveats or not -- or that doing so is really no different than complaining that his adherence to conservative doctrine is something short of pure and absolute. Since at least the 1980s, our political dialogue recognizes two opposing, hostile camps -- conservatives and liberals. "Liberals" are the traitors, the lunatics, the ones against whom Rush Limbaugh has been viciously railing to 20 million people, 4 hours a day for the last 20 years. "Liberals," as Karl Rove told us, are anti-American and allies of The Terrorists

That's how "liberals" have long been talked about -- they're the subversives, the weak losers, the socialists, the Friends of the Terrorists, the lunatics, the anti-American bad ones. At best -- in more sane, less "unhinged" right-wing circles -- they are wildly misguided and are the political enemies of conservatism. Whichever approach one takes, it is self-evidently startling and politically significant to hear that, after all this time, George Bush -- presumably along with the entire Republican leadership in the House and Senate which passed every spending bill since 2003 -- is, to at least some extent, now one of them, an actual liberal. It is hard to understand how one can pretend that to suddenly stick the "liberal" label on Bush, even partially, is unnotable and really nothing new.

(2) Goldberg's claim that Bush can even remotely be described as a "liberal" is premised on two separate fallacies: (i) that someone who deviates from conservative doctrine or violates conservative principles of government (and therefore is not a conservative) is, by definition, a "liberal"; and, more importantly, (ii) that someone who advocates increased government power or new federal domestic programs is, by definition, a "liberal." Those two flawed premises lead Goldberg to conclude that because Bush has expanded the scope of government power and created new government programs, he is "liberal."

A liberal is not merely someone who advocates increased government spending or new government programs, but instead, is someone who does so in order to achieve specific goals and ends. For that reason, to describe a president as "liberal," it is woefully inadequate to simply demonstrate increased federal spending and increased federal power. One has to know the goals and ends of this expansion.

George Bush has drastically expanded the reach, scope and power of the federal government (something which is un-conservative, at least in theory), but that power has been applied in plainly un-liberal ways, and towards decidedly un-liberal ends. For instance, his administration has run roughshod over federalism and states' rights principles and has sought to expand the scope of the Commerce Clause in order to increase the scope of federal power at the expense of the states (clearly the opposite of the crux of small-government conservatism), but has done so in order to achieve goals which are the opposite of liberalism.

The administration has wielded inflated theories of federal power in order: (a) to interfere in a state court probate proceeding so as to dictate the outcome of an individual's end-of-life decisions; (b) to prevent states from allowing their terminally ill citizens to opt for physician-assisted suicide; (c) to override state law allowing sick people and their doctors to turn to medical marijuana; (d) to federalize laws governing marriage (traditionally the exclusive province of the states) in order to ban same-sex marriages; (e) to empower the FDA to override objective scientific inquiry with religious convictions so as to ban the use of safe and effective pharmaceutical products and nullify scientific consensus on moral grounds; (f) to spend more money and increase law enforcement powers in order to combat adult pornography and gambling; (g) to fund new federal programs to teach Americans about abstinence, promote religious-based teachings, and proselytize about other favored moral concepts; and (h) to increase the power of the Department of Education to regulate and control the nation's public schools through reliance on standardized tests.

These are all instances in which the Bush administration has expanded the reach of federal power and increased domestic federal spending -- often by intruding into areas historically reserved for the states. That conduct is the antithesis of the belief of small-government conservatives in federalism, states' rights and restrained federal power. And yet, in no sense could any of these efforts to expand federal power be described as anything resembling "liberalism." They are nothing other than efforts to increase the power and reach of government in order to coerce behavior or impose ideological constraints on liberty that virtually no contemporary liberal would endorse.

And that relatively innocuous list is entirely independent of the whole slew of highly controversial, power-seizing programs which are of, at best, dubious legality -- including eavesdropping on Americans with no warrants and no oversight, the lawless incarceration of American citizens on U.S. soil with no charges and no trial, the embrace of theories of executive power which vest lawbreaking powers in the President, the use of torture and rendition as interrogation tools, the creation of secret Eastern European prisons beyond the reach of the law, etc. Those are all instances of wildly expanded federal power which cannot be said to be conservative (as George Will, Bruce Fein, Bob Barr, and many other conservatives have eloquently argued), but they certainly could not remotely be described as liberal. Instead, they are really well outside of the spectrum of mainstream ideology, really outside of the American system of government as it has been defined since its founding.

In fairness, there are a handful of Bush programs which can reasonably be said to be more in line with traditional liberalism, the most prominent example of which is Bush's prescription drug plan, but even that can also accurately be described as being more of a windfall to the pharmaceutical and insurance industries than providing value to its alleged beneficiaries.

But regardless of whether the Medicare program approaches traditional liberalism, the vast, vast bulk of initiatives pursued by the Bush administration -- including those which have led to an increase in domestic spending -- have been devoted to a wild increase of federal power, in ways and towards goals that cannot be characterized as remotely liberal. As Hunter observed:

Fiscal and other conservatives may say that they value small government, but it is a fact of the movement that when in a position to actually implement those policies, they do not. . . .

They shuffle the tasks of government around, yes; they close so called "liberal" governmental tasks such as environmental protections and citizen welfare and safety programs, while hyper-boosting "conservative" governmental tasks such as defense spending and business-based "incentives" and other sops . . . but post-Nixon conservatives have been remarkably consistent in their actual actions: increase spending; increase deficits; increase government; increase interference in citizen lives under banners of "religion" and "morality".

This describes the Bush administration's approach quite well. Bush may not be a model of Hayekian conservative theory, but he nonetheless is quite conservative in the way in which modern conservatism manifests when in power -- namely, as a movement devoted to expanding government intrusion and federal power in order to promote its own moral and ideological ends. Many self-proclaimed conservatives have now expressly embraced this so-called "large government conservatism." Bush's governing surely has not been consistent with theoretical principles of small-government conservatism, but it is also as far from liberalism as it can get.

(3) Ultimately, the claim that Bush has liberal tendencies because he has expanded federal spending and federal power ignores the fact that there are two sizable, influential and ultimately mutually exclusive factions which claim the mantle of "conservatism." One says it wants to shrink federal power, and and one wants to increase it in order to enforce conservative ends -- moral, authoritarian and otherwise. George Will put it this way:

The conservative coalition, which is coming unglued for many reasons, will rapidly disintegrate if limited-government conservatives become convinced that social conservatives are unwilling to concentrate their character-building and soul-saving energies on the private institutions that mediate between individuals and government, and instead try to conscript government into sectarian crusades.

The NSA eavesdropping scandal -- involving, as it does, an aggressive expansion of a 1990s conservative bugaboo: federal eavesdropping on Americans -- has also exposed this split. As Jonathan Alter described:

But "Snoopgate" is already creating new fissures on the right. The NSA story is an acid test of whether one is a traditional Barry Goldwater conservative, who believes in limited government, or a modern Richard Nixon conservative, who believes in authority.

In his response on Friday, Goldberg asked: "Was Nixon a liberal, or not?" There is certainly a more reasonable basis for claiming that Nixon, as opposed to Bush, had discrete flourishes of liberalism in his domestic policies -- including the creation of the EPA, expansion of social security, massively increased spending for the Great Society welfare programs, a commitment to affirmative action plans, vastly more intrusive regulation of business, the imposition of wage and price controls, etc.

But Nixon expanded federal government power for entirely un-liberal ends as well, including creating intrusive domestic spying programs, treating dissenters as criminals and subversives, whittling away constitutional protections for criminal defendants, authorizing racially divisive electoral strategies, and embracing theories of executive power and obsessive secrecy which were the (more mild) predecessors of those adopted by the Bush administration. A strong case can be made that Nixon's approach to domestic policy was ideologically mixed.

But virtually none of that is true for George Bush. It is true that Bush is unquestionably not a small-government conservative -- not in any way -- but he is even further away, much further away, from anything resembling "liberalism." His expansions of federal power are devoted to goals which are wholly alien and repugnant to political liberalism, and many of the expanded powers are neither conservative nor liberal because they are simply contrary to the basic principles of American government and well outside of the range our most basic political values.

Ultimately, Bush's ideological purity matters little. It is conservatives whose support twice put him in office, who vigorously supported him for virtually his entire presidency, who never objected to his being described and self-labeled as "conservative," and who -- with rare exception -- repeatedly claimed him as one of their own. I understand the desire to re-cast Bush as a "liberal"; he's now akin to a live grenade frantically being tossed around because nobody wants to be stuck with him in history.

But for conservatives, this effort is futile. Bush is indelibly branded in the public mind as a conservative, largely because of the unyielding support given to him by most conservatives. For that reason, his failure will almost certainly be viewed as a failure of conservatism, despite the last-minute and rather unprincipled effort by conservatives to engage in an emergency re-labeling campaign.

UPDATE: In response to my exchange with Jonah, UNC-Chapel Hill Professor Jonathan Weiler also points out: "The idea that conservatives really wanted to restrain the power of government per se is crap. Since 1980, dominant conservatism has whole-heartedly embraced government as an instrument to advance their preferred interests." Weiler's post contains substantial documentation for the proposition -- also demonstrated by Hunter -- that self-proclaimed conservatives, when in power, have focused far more on expanding federal power (albeit with different ends) than they have on restraining or limiting government power.

254 comments:

  1. Anonymous12:56 PM

    Colbert's truthiness could not be more appropriate than using the term liberal to describe George Bush....It appears that op/eds do not have to use facts these days...twisted opinion will do.

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  2. Anonymous1:01 PM

    OT (to previous thread):

    I've been searching Google News for "Goss" and then "Goss+Foggo", and about 7/8 of the stories don't mention Foggo at all. Of the 1/8 that do, about 2/3 are partisan or international publications.


    Probably the bureaucratic infighting is what they say, but the only reason for the media not to mention the scandal at all, which allowed Goss's enemies to force Bush's hand, is to protect Bush.

    John Emerson

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  3. Anonymous1:15 PM

    An absolutely first-rate, spot-on piece, Glenn. Thanks for the best read of the week!

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  4. Thank you Glenn for doing the research and putting in the time to put into such frank and devastating words what I've been thinking for so long concerning Bush's political ideology - if one can even think it deserves such an epithet. Goldberg and co.'s attempt to distance themselves from Bush's failed administration only further underscores the desperation Republicans now must feel resulting from having no accomplishments they can be proud of to run on this November. These next six months are going to get very interesting me thinks...

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  5. Anonymous1:20 PM

    I think you're undermining your point with this summarization: "But for conservatives, this effort is futile. Bush is indelibly branded in the public mind as a conservative, largely because of the unyielding support given to him by most conservatives."

    The reason Bush is a conservative has nothing to do with public perception. You enumerated many instances of Bush's bona fide conservativism. The problem is the schizophrenic nature of the conservative coalition, which Will seems to have a pretty good handle on.

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  6. Anonymous1:22 PM

    Glenn, can we take your closing statements a little bit farther?

    Bush is indelibly branded in the public mind as a Republican conservative, largely because of the unyielding support given to him by most Republican conservatives.

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  7. The reason Bush is a conservative has nothing to do with public perception. You enumerated many instances of Bush's bona fide conservativism. The problem is the schizophrenic nature of the conservative coalition, which Will seems to have a pretty good handle on.

    That all depends on whether you think conservatism is the intrusive and authoritarian version espoused by James Dobson and Bill Bennett, or if you think it is the small-government conservatism of George Will and the Cato Institute. There is a good argument to make that conservatism seems to always manifest as the former, and that exists as the latter only in theory.

    Nonetheless, there are plenty of recognizable conservatives with principles of government wholly alien to most of what the Bush administration has done. So I think it's necessary to point out that whether Bush is a conservative in that sense doesn't matter in terms of whether he will be, and should be, pinned to conservatives when it's times to figure out who is to blame for this disaster that has befallen our country.

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  8. Once again, a top notch explanation. Thank you for pointing out the truth about Bush, the conservative movement and the effort to smear the liberal/progressive movement.

    Now, if you would just use the trackback component of haloscan, I'd be a happy (briefly off hiatus) blogger!

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  9. Anonymous1:34 PM

    When many right wingers attempt to defend Bush, they create what I call a "fantasy liberal". For example, on deficits I get the comeback "well liberals were worse", or on immigration "well Clinton was worse". Back there somewhere in time is some mythical Bad Liberal whose existence excuses any wrongs committed by Bush.

    But the problem for right wingers is that the strawman, mythical liberal is too easily blown away. Hey, the second worst deficits were under Reagan; under Clinton more employers were fined for hiring illegals; and so on.

    There is no mythical liberal worse than Bush.

    Well, the solution? Re-create Bush as a liberal and announce he is the worst one ever.

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  10. Glenn.
    Excellent Post. But I think more emphasis sould be placed on the paragraph where you write "Liberals" are the traitors, the lunatics, 'Liberals,' as Karl Rove told us, are anti-American and allies of The Terrorists."
    The point you're trying to make (IMHO) and that everyone else is trying to dance around is that in most conservative circle's "Liberal" is a profanity.
    I haven't read Jonah enough to know haw tightly he fits into that circle but the bottom line is that his moving the vocabulary from "compassionante conservative" to "liberal" is eqivalent to the shift between "advocate for women's rights" to "feminazi".
    It's not a small matter and you are absolutly correct to call him on it.

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  11. Anonymous1:42 PM

    I agree that conservatives cannot toss this stink bomb outside their house.

    But I am waiting for liberals to toss the "big government" stink bomb outside their own house by finally rejecting that "big government" theory and recognizing it never leads to the goals in which they profess to believe. It leads to a corrupt Big Government which is in business for itself.

    Liberals refuse to get rid of their own stink bomb. They love big government-- so who cares about all their "lofty" plans for it. Big governments all look alike in the dark. They have mustaches.

    I think we are entering a post-label political climate.

    As soon as it becomes politically correct to call a fascist a fascist we can all do so with impunity and then everyone can decide if that's the kind of society in which they want to live.

    Those with a tolerance for fascism can vote for the "compassionate fascist" whose contract with America promises to give everyone the sun, the moon and the stars.

    You let liberals off way too easily in my opinion Glenn. There is simply no point saying anything at all about them unless one recognizes and addresses the main point: that their tolerance for big government will always lead to totalitarianism.

    That government governs best which governs least.

    I think Ronald Reagan was a very decent human being, but the last good President was Eisenhower.

    From what I understand he did very little as President.

    That was perfect.

    BTW, what would you call Murtha--a liberal or a conservative?

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  12. You let liberals off way too easily in my opinion Glenn.

    Like any political theory, liberalism has its flaws. If it were currently dominating every branch of government and our national media, I would probably spend more time talking about some of those flaws. But since, at the moment, it is dominating exactly nothing, and since the current administration is engaged in conduct which threatens to do irreversible harm to our country and its institutions, it is not a hard choice at all as to where one should devote one's efforts and energies.

    And, just as conservatism has abandoned its "small government" theories in practice, so-called "liberals" are far removed from the "big government" cliches that are used to describe them.

    Bill Clinton arrived in Washington with a large deficit and left with a huge surplus, and was hardly devoted to some wild expansion in domestic spending. Howard Dean - that radical Leftist - spent 10 years governing Vermont by refusing to allow a single dollar to be spent if it meant that the budget would be imbalanced. The re-transformation of our country under the Bush administration from one that was blessed with a surplus to one burdened by mammoth deficits is a big part of why Dean decided to run for President.

    There are inappropriate and unwarranted government intrusions advocated by many liberals. But in my view, they don't even remotely compare to the grave excesses and assault on our constitutional system posed by the group that has controlled our government for the last five years.

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  13. Anonymous1:56 PM

    BTW. Go to antiwar.com and read the latest headline.

    81 dead. It's civil war, and the description of the killings is unspeakably grotesque.

    What do you call Death Squads---conservative or liberal?

    What do you call Death Squads which are sanctioned by virtually all "liberals" and "conservatives" now in elected office?

    Bi-partisan death squads?

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  14. Poor George Bush. The ideologues on both ends of the spectrum want to disavow him as one of their own.

    You are all correct. Bush is a politician, not an ideologue.

    The righties are pissed at George for his apostasies to the left like the Kennedy co-drafted NCLB, the new Medicare entitlements, failure to veto pork laden spending bills, and now sucking up to illegal immigrants.

    The lefties like Glenn whine that the righties are trying to foist Bush on their camp as a :::shudder::: liberal and point out the many "conservative" things Bush has done.

    Wow. You might even conclude that Bush is trying to dominate the center and pick and choose his policies from both camps.

    Glenn takes this opportunity to skewer GOP "hypocrisy" by arguing that they supported a President who doesn't tow the entire Reagan governing philosophy.

    Quiz time kiddies!

    How many of you voted for Clinton and supported him throughout his presidency? Be honest now.

    OK, how many of you supported the Reagan goals of welfare reform, cutting the growth in the Medicare and Medicaid entitlements, cutting social spending and free trade?

    My, I don't see nearly as many hands.

    You realize, of course, that Clinton actively supported or at least signed off on the Gingrich versions of all of these bills.

    And yet you supported Clinton. Why? Are you hypocrites or did you simply look at the list of what Mr. Clinton claimed to support during that particular election and decide you could support some, but not all of it?

    This is the decision making process which I went through with Bush during both elections. I liked Bush's tax cuts, abortion stands and foreign policy. Like Goldberg, I hated Bush's pandering in the NCLB and Medicare entitlement. However, when compared the algore and Kerry, Bush's positives outweighed his negatives because there was very little I could support in the alternative.

    You probably went through the same process with Clinton.

    Is this hypocrisy?

    Glenn, you make a big deal over Mr. Bush's polls. Without getting into the demography of the politorials which significantly and intentionally overcount Dems, even neutral polls find that Mr. Bush's losses are coming from support from conservatives. The left has hated Bush since 2000.

    Why are the conservatives grumbling? Because they think Bush has been acting left far too much and they are losing patience. They no long have to support Bush because the alternative is worse.

    I'm sorry that you don't want to claim Bush, but we conservatives/libertarians are unhappy because Bush has foisted a leftist Medicare boondogle on us and refuses to cut spending. Conservatives, but not us liberians, are pissed that Bush is supporting Dem amnesty for illegal immigrants, who flaunt their law breaking while flying Mexican flags in demonstrations.

    This is a GOP intra-party squabble. You can gloat and hope that GOP turnout this fall is depressed enough for the minority party can gain control of a house of Congress, but the charge of hypocrisy is misplaced.

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  15. Follow the money, I say. If Bush is a liberal, then the money he spends would be going towards programs that are traditionally considered liberal.

    Is that the case? Er, no. While running up the massive deficit, the President has proudly boasted his freeze of non-military discretionary spending. He means by this that he's going to underfund "programs which help people (worker protection, food safety, education, environmental protections, science research, 'community development block grants, low-income housing, child-support enforcement against deadbeat fathers and scores of other programs with support in Congress.'"

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  16. Anonymous2:20 PM

    What this discussion may be pointing out is that conservatism as both a political movement and idealogy is a minor and contrarian vein in the Republican Party. Conservatives probably have more of the public imagination then their political power and influence warrant.

    I don't know, but anybody looking at Bush and the Republican Party before and particularily after 9-11 could never accuse them of being conservative except in rhetoric. The Republican Party unknownest to such people as Goldberg is a party based on race, religion, miltarism, ultra nationalism, corporate elites, and based on a fear of modernity and science. The party that elected Bush was and is not particularily conservative to begin with.

    Goldberg's complaint should not be with Bush being some crypto-liberal who was exposed too late, but with the Republican party for itself not being conservative.

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  17. Anonymous2:20 PM

    My dear lovable Glenn,

    Whatever Bush is, liberal or conservative, he is quickly moving us toward a dictatorship in which the military has assumed control of everything important.

    Domestic issues, long the "fave" of liberals, have nothing to do with what is going on now. (read below)

    I see some Republicans have stepped up to speak out against this. Whatever they are, conservative, liberal, moderate or mixed-breed, I support them now in those efforts.

    Please tell me what is the "liberal" docrtinaire position about this incipient Executive supported military coup?

    If liberal "theory" is against this, will all the progressive liberals now be speaking out against this?

    I don't hear them yet.

    Will Senator Feingold join in this chorus?

    If not, what good is he?

    This is what is happening right now. This is the real importance of the "Goss story" whatever that is.

    I think this is what we should all be most alarmed about and focused on.

    Senate
    Intelligence Committee comes out against Hayden

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  18. Anonymous2:23 PM

    Wow. You might even conclude that Bush is trying to dominate the center and pick and choose his policies from both camps.

    Right - like those great moderate, centrist policies such as torture, breaking the law, detaining American citizens with no trial

    A President with a 32% rating and this moron comes and says he's dominating the center! LOL! Great strategy. Maybe if he becomes more a centrist his approval ratings can slip into the teens.

    The reason both sides hate him increasingly is because he's incompetent, corrupt and radical. Outside of the mainstream spectrum, as Glenn says.

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  19. Anonymous2:25 PM

    Off topic, but not unrelated.

    Glenn notes that Bushco has opted " .... to spend more money and increase law enforcement powers in order to combat adult pornography ... "

    Quite apart from their flouting of the principles of free speech, ALL pornography laws are going to end up being used to expand the government's power. I note with dismay that Google, which is not playing nicely with the feds (nor with Microsoft), is being taken to court on charges related to child pornography. These laws have to go.

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  20. Anonymous2:28 PM

    Sorry, it's the House Intel Panel.

    I forgot the excerpts:

    A leading Republican came out against the front-runner for CIA director, Gen. Michael Hayden, saying Sunday the spy agency should not have military leadership during a turbulent time among intelligence agencies.

    Members of the Senate committee that would consider President Bush's nominee also expressed reservations, saying the CIA is a civilian agency and putting Hayden atop it would concentrate too much power in the military for intelligence matters...

    Bush was expected to nominate a new director as early as Monday to replace Porter Goss, who abruptly resigned on Friday.

    But opposition to Hayden because of his military background is mounting on Capitol Hill, where he would face tough hearings in the Senate Intelligence Committee....

    Hayden would be "the wrong person, the wrong place at the wrong time," said the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Rep. Peter Hoekstra, R-Mich...

    If Hayden were to get the nomination, military officers would run the major spy agencies in the United States, from the ultra-secret National Security Agency to the Defense Intelligence Agency....

    The Pentagon already controls more than 80 percent of the intelligence budget...

    The chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee said he would view a Hayden nomination as a way to get information from the Bush administration about its secretive domestic surveillance program, undertaken by the NSA when Hayden led that agency.

    The warrantless monitoring covered electronic communications between people in the United States and other parties overseas with suspected terrorist links.

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  21. Anonymous2:31 PM

    From ryan at 2:23PM:

    "The reason both sides hate him increasingly is because he's incompetent, corrupt and radical. Outside of the mainstream spectrum, as Glenn says."

    I'd actually go a step further and say he's completely beyond *any* spectrum, mainstream or fringe. He appears nothing more than a rampaging ego untethered to any coherent philosophy beyond whatever feeds and serves his personal vanity.

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  23. Ryan - ILL said...

    Bart: Wow. You might even conclude that Bush is trying to dominate the center and pick and choose his policies from both camps.

    Right - like those great moderate, centrist policies such as torture, breaking the law, detaining American citizens with no trial


    If you poll on support for the listening in on al Qaeda telephone calls, detaining al Qaeda and Taiban at Gitmo and performing coercive interrogation on them, I believe you will get heavy majorities for all those acts which cross conservative and independent lines and include a great many Dems.

    These actions are the basis of Bush's support, not the cause of his poll number slide with the GOP base.

    A President with a 32% rating and this moron comes and says he's dominating the center! LOL! Great strategy. Maybe if he becomes more a centrist his approval ratings can slip into the teens.

    Try reading your own Donkey press, which manufactured these politorials by over counting Dems and counting people who do not vote at all. Even they admit that the reduction in Bush's approval numbers are coming from the GOP base.

    The reason both sides hate him increasingly is because he's incompetent, corrupt and radical. Outside of the mainstream spectrum, as Glenn says.

    No, those are the excuses and lies you use for your partisan hatred, which started in 2000 when algore was prevented by the Supremes from manufacturing enough votes to win in Florida and intensified as Bush reduced the Dems to a minority party over the next two election cycles.

    Bush is the most favorable GOP president to your domestic goals since, well, Nixon.

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  24. Anonymous2:51 PM

    From Bart at 2:03PM:

    "You can gloat and hope that GOP turnout this fall is depressed enough for the minority party can gain control of a house of Congress, but the charge of hypocrisy is misplaced."

    While I do find the glacial crack-up of the GOP coalition amusing, you're contention the hypocisy charge is 'misplaced' is itself a tad misdirected (put generously, that is).

    You raise a fair point about President Clinton, who if I recall did come into office intent upon some common-sense reforms to extant government programs (welfare among them). He didn't seek the wholesale dismantling of them as either Presidents Reagan or the current Bush have. And there was never a collective disassociation of Clinton on the left as we're presently seeing on the right with the current President. Was there criticism of him and his policies? Yes. Was there an outcry of him being really a 'conservative' as opposed to a 'liberal'? No.

    The hypocisy we're seeing is the many commentators and supporters of President Bush suddenly claiming he was never a 'conservative' but in fact an outright 'liberal'. Have these same bobble-heads criticized him in the past? Yes. Have they previously even hinted that he isn't really a 'conservative' but in fact an outright 'liberal' (as they are presently hell-bent on claiming)? No.

    Nice attempted dodge. Unsuccessful, but nice attempt.

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  25. So who's going to rescue our country, that's what I want to know. Bush is expanding the powers of the executive branch to unprecidented levels and building a wall of secrecy around it which makes a complete mockery of the idea of representative democracy. So who's going to put a stop to it? Hillary? McCain?

    Sigh......

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  26. Anonymous2:59 PM

    "For that reason, to describe a president as "liberal," it is woefully inadequate to simply demonstrate increased federal spending and increased federal power. One has to know the goals and ends of this expansion."

    This is really all we need to know to understand the current state of politics in America. It is about the superficial, the messaging. The conservatives claim to not do nuance while every message is nuanced to a degree it sends messages here and there to their base. Liberals can do nuance but that is roundly criticized as being the work of a long-winded blowhard and someone who doesn't get this notion of "Middle America," code for anti-intellectualism. So, liberals retreat into half-assed sloganeering and are exposed as phoneys because they can't act as sloganeers. The conservatives aren't acting, they really are anti-intellectual. Before the 2000 election, anyone with a few functioning brain cells could see how far we had fallen when the question was asked, "With whom would you rather have a beer?" If that is the rule by which we select leaders, we will continue to erode our standing as a democratic beacon - if that light hasn't flickered out completely yet (thank god we still have the Constitution - a beautiful work, even if not heeded by the successors to its authors).

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  27. Anonymous2:59 PM

    From Bart at 2:49PM:

    "If you poll on support for the listening in on al Qaeda telephone calls, detaining al Qaeda and Taiban at Gitmo and performing coercive interrogation on them, I believe you will get heavy majorities for all those acts which cross conservative and independent lines and include a great many Dems."

    And here I thought you were distrustful (with good empirical grounds) of polling. Or is that just with polls whose results you don't like?

    "No, those are the excuses and lies you use for your partisan hatred, which started in 2000 when algore was prevented by the Supremes from manufacturing enough votes to win in Florida and intensified as Bush reduced the Dems to a minority party over the next two election cycles."

    I chuckle every time I hear the term 'partisan hatred' in this context. The fact you still can't assimilate the fact he actually *lost* the 2000 election is more than a little sad, though.

    So, if the Bush Administration really isn't 'corrupt' and 'incompetent', what would *you* call it? And upon what would you base your particular interpretation (beyond blind, tribal loyalty, that is)?

    "Bush is the most favorable GOP president to your domestic goals since, well, Nixon."

    And, pray, which 'domestic goals' are those? The unrestrained deficit spending? The irresponsible and badly skewed tax cuts? The 'bankruptcy reform' that benefited no-one who actually has to file? The Medicare-D disaster? The dysfunctional and ineffective DHS?

    I can't wait to hear this one.

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  28. Anonymous3:00 PM

    Just a quick observation. I changed my mind about the Goss story. It's not about Goss, it's about the NSA spying program and the so-called "war on terrorism" which turned into a war against civil liberties and the cause of all this bloodshed, torture, etc.

    I accept the official story. I think Hookergate is just smoke and mirrors and the "invitation to investigate" of Goss nothing but a red herring. Even if Goss does have differences with Bushco he will keep silent about those and remain loyal. That goes with the terrain in politics.

    If I could offer some gentle advice to Glenn, I would suggest he stop reading those other bloggers. Who cares about them? They've never had anything important to say and I doubt they will start now.

    This Hayden story and the attempt by Bushco to have the military take over relates directly to every main theme about which Glenn has been writing and I hope he is going to focus on this heavily in the upcoming days.

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  29. Anonymous3:05 PM

    Glenn, as a leading member of the faux "advertise liberally" circle of links, you have zero credibility to speak on the misuse of the term "liberal".

    I see you even avoided, probably on purpose, makeing any statement stronger than:

    A liberal is not merely someone who advocates increased government spending or new government programs, but instead, is someone who does so in order to achieve specific goals and ends.

    You stopped there, as if you had "proved" your point and you stopped short of actually addressing your circle of links that in no-way-shape-or-form represent the liberal/progressive traditions that used to even be supported in Kansas.

    Come on, Glenn, I don't believe you are blind to the fact that you are a major beneficiary of a group that has hijacked the "l" word to create their own brands and narrow debate on a range of issues. In fact, you often are a leading propopent of the claptrap that passes for the "so-called-liberal" blogosphere.

    I don't doubt to those seeking to silence real discussion on what "liberalism" is will say, "great post," glenn.

    But this is the most hypocritical thing I have read here -- you deliberately stop short of defining liberalism and then proclaim how wrong it is for bush's opponents to misapply that term...

    ...all the while you (and your circle of links) are stealing it yourself!

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  30. Anonymous3:09 PM

    Bart, that bus has left the station. Nobody except you is talking about Al Queda but you continue to keep trotting that out. The rest of us are talking about Americans but I guess you have a reading comprehension problem.

    Were you always this blindly partisan and just here to deliver propaganda?

    My mistake then---I didn't actually see that at the beginning ---you have made that more than abundantly clear in the last few days.

    You're on scroll.

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  31. Anonymous3:14 PM

    The most trenchant lesson to be learned from this discussion is the total lack of understanding of political movements and philosophies that has been created in the American public discourse. There are now two choices and two choices only, liberal versus conservative. The actions and ideas of a wide spectrum of political movements are shoehorned into one of these two camps. Statements such as, 'all 'Lefties', ie. liberals, are motivated by hatred of Bush the man and not a reasoned disagreement with his actions,' and " the liberal tendencies of the Bush administration to bloat federal spending,' can be written with a straight face. This is the state of American debate, if you say something, anything, it may well be true. Using this absence of logic as a base for one's political beliefs is why this country is in the dire straits that it is in. Read a dictionary, learn definitions, stop the self serving facile delineations so popular in the corporate media. Everything Orwell wrote regarding the use of inflammatory language and the repetition of simple concepts has come to pass. With the exception of a few folks, Glenn, and surprisingly Geroge Will, among them, there is no discourse in this nation anymore.

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  32. Anonymous3:16 PM

    Oh, I just saw your response to me Glenn. I was actually talking about political "liberals" and not liberalism. I guess there are the intellectuals and the politicians and especially the people who vote.

    I do see your point and I agree that whatever this Government calls itself--- it has to go and very quickly. It's been enabled of course by people calling themselves a wide variety of things so that makes it confusing.
    Maybe we can decide what "label" to blame after we save the country?

    By "we" I mean you of course:)

    GOOD LUCK!

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  33. bart:
    "If you poll on support for the listening in on al Qaeda telephone calls, detaining al Qaeda and Taiban at Gitmo and performing coercive interrogation on them"

    That would be great if anyone for a minute beleived that that's what was actually happening. Between the incompetence, dishonesty and downright spooky inability to correct for prior errors, this administation has taken the world into the most unstable and dangerous state it has ever been in in my lifetime and turned our common notions of decency and morality upside down.
    And if you beleive a single word that comes out of the white house at this stage of the game then you are either woefully naive or willfully ignorant. (I'm presuming the latter.)

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  34. Anonymous3:28 PM

    Glenn writes: And, just as conservatism has abandoned its "small government" theories in practice, so-called "liberals" are far removed from the "big government" cliches that are used to describe them.

    In terms of Dean, that is quite true. The populist, big govt, Bush GOP leaves little reason for a Goldwater conservative or libertarians to vote for that party, much less for cosmopolitan liberals to do so. For all the reasons you so compellingly set forth, the modern GOP is an abomination. Altho I've never joined either party, in the early 90s I did hook up with the Republican Liberty Caucus, a libertarian, small-government movement. It went precisely nowhere; was completely swamped by the populist, religion-driven types Bush represents. So, A Democrat like Dean could be an attractive alternative.

    The main problem the Democratic Party has, however, is also one that many here do not want to concede, but it remains a hard fact of the political landscape: national security and defense. The robust, liberal Cold War hawks died with Scoop Jackson, and McGovernism took over the Democratic Party, and/or certainly much of its base. Reams about this have been written for decades, and not only by Republicans and conservatives.

    What I mean is well-captured by a Kurt Andersen in New York magazine (my emphasis):

    ...what makes so much of the great middle of the electorate most uncomfortable about signing on with the Democratic Party is the same thing that has made them uncomfortable since McGovern—the sense that the anti-military instincts of the left half of the party, no matter how sincere and well meaning, render prospective Democratic presidents untrustworthy as guardians of national security. It’s no accident that Bill Clinton was elected and reelected (and Al Gore won his popular majority) during the decade when peace reigned supreme, after the Cold War and before 9/11.

    The Bush administration’s colossal mismanagement of the occupation of Iraq is not about to make lots of Americans discover their inner pacifist, either. Rather, they will simply crave someone who is sensible, thoughtful, and competent as well as “tough” in his geopolitical m.o. If Iraq is souring most Americans on the Republican brand of dreamy, wishful, recklessly sketchy foreign policy, the result will not and should not be a pendulum swing to its dreamy, wishful, recklessly sketchy left-wing Democratic counterpart... Democrats who are sincerely tough-minded on national security are out of sync not only with much of their base but also with one of the party’s core brand attributes. The Democrats remain the antiwar party, notwithstanding the post-9/11 growth of the liberal-hawk caucus—just as the Republicans are still the white party, notwithstanding George Bush’s manifest friendliness to individual people of color.


    Andersen accurately notes that the cosmopolitan liberalism -- and rejection of Bush's anti-intellectualism -- of his ilk is not akin that in Berkeley, and his kind of liberals/progressives simply do have issues with the Democrats on national defense. So do many Americans in "the middle." (Andersen calls for a third party, however, which I deem unrealistic.)

    The Democrats tone-deafness on this political reality is nowhere better demonstrated than in their having nominated in '04 a candidate best known for being a dove and an anti-war leader and agitator. And before people start jumping on me to defend the nobility and validity of every position ever taken by John Kerry, whether you think his role as an anti-war activist in the Viet Nam era was one of Speaking Truth to Power is beside the point. After 9/11 (and really, before that) large swaths of the nation, not all of them "conservative," do not want what he represents, notwithstanding whether some on the left think he was all noble in throwing away his medals and depicting the entire U.S. military as war criminals. He was the exact WRONG post-9/11 candidate, and a gift to the GOP. Bush should have lost in '04.

    Neoconservative foreign policy is not best answered by failing to correct the perception that Democrats are casual about national security. Bush/Rove did not manufacture that perception, which has persisted for decades; they have merely masterfully exploited it.

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  35. Could the commenter with the animus towards the "advertise liberally" blogs provide us with his/her definition of liberalism, seeing as how this is the umpteenth time this individual has entered a thread to state that these blogs are not liberal.

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  36. You *harpooned them well*, Glenn...

    ... and Can't resist the metaphor of how GW at heart-and-soul is strapped to the Republican Conservative Movement as ever Ahab was bound to that Whale!

    Yo Ho and off to the Deep we Go!

    Great Job (per usual...a real GEM!)

    :-D

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  37. hume's ghost: Follow the money, I say. If Bush is a liberal, then the money he spends would be going towards programs that are traditionally considered liberal.

    There's much wisdom in this admonition to follow the money. For me, conservatives have been reluctant to put stops on the accumulation of wealth and communal resources in the hands of the best and the brightest (as they might call it). This standard operating procedure is touted to be good for all, the main notion being that the wealth will find its way farther down the food chain in a natural and fairer way.

    Unfortunately, the nature of capital and capitalism does not allow that. It rewards those with capital by giving them more capital. The various liberal responses to this in-built inequity in the distribution of wealth and resouces is to institute diverse legal and institutional safeguards to the unjust accumulation of this wealth and smooth out the inequities.

    A few economic facts support this view, I think. Over 90 percent of the total wealth in the country is concebtraed in the hands of the top five percent of the population. Median incomes have sragnated while incomes of business leaders have gotten as high as 400 times the average worker's income. Poverty has risen during the past few years. There is a phenomenon noted by econmists of a super-super rich class that has arisen in the last few years. Etc.

    It's interesting to note that under Jimmy Carter the distribution of wealth was the eqitable it had been for some time. With Reagan and following, that trend reversed so that we see this top-heavy distribution that we see now. In these terms, Bush has done nothing to reverse this trend. Indeed, with his tax cuts in time of war and the gutting of government services programs, how he can be seen as anything but an uber-conservative is beyond me.

    Just one more point: while the idea that the NSA programs are supposedly about terrorism, I suggest that it isjust one more for this admin and succeeding adomins to consolidate the hold of the rich on the reins of power. This phenomenon has various aspects to it, social and cultural, but the prevailing rationale is to set up a state apparatus that will undermine dissent and criticism of the economic injustice underlying the political environment.

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  38. The flaws in Goldberg's argument (or, more aptly, his attempts to disassociate himself--and conservatism--from Bush and Co.) are apparent, and thanks to Glenn for pointing them out.

    But, with regard to the core of Goldberg's reasons--that "compassionate conservatism" is liberalism--there's a pretty strong smell of singed logic. This campaign tactic of Bush's was mostly a rhetorical device meant to gather support from the rightist element among evangelicals--because it accomplished three things. First, it met with approval from the fiscal conservatives who saw it as a means of transfering social responsibility from government back to the charitable sector. This is the anti-New Deal appeal at work.

    Second, it would (temporarily, I believe) send government funds to religious groups wanting more money for their existing programs.

    Third, it would legitimize in the minds of conservative evangelicals their own religious self-interest--that they were being aided in meeting the requirements of their religions to minister and proselytize on behalf of their faith.

    My own feeling is that "compassionate conservatism" was always a Trojan horse that had to be implemented in steps and over time to succeed. First, move tax money to religious groups and private charities, then gradually reduce that funding, then eliminate the funding entirely, along with the agencies with oversight responsibility. If true, that would strike me as the strategy of a classic anti-New Deal conservative.

    If George Bush were, in fact, a liberally-minded compassionate man who thought government could improve the lot of the needy, it seems certain that the response to Katrina would have been much better, and Bush's mental engagement with the problem much more substantial. That Bush largely failed in that and in his plans to shift social programs to the private sector says volumes about his competency.

    It may be hearsay, but let's remember what one of Bush's business school instructors, Yoshihiro Tsurumi, said of Bush, via The Crimson: "Tsurumi said he particularly recalls Bush’s right-wing extremism at the time, which he said was reflected in off-hand comments equating the New Deal of the 1930s with socialism and the corporation-regulating Securities and Exchange Commission with 'an enemy of capitalism.'

    "'I vividly remember that he made a comment saying that people are poor because they’re lazy,' Tsurumi said."

    http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=503181

    If Goldberg were as perceptive as he self-identifies himself, he might have seen the true ruthless, Old Testament Bush wolf lurking under the ill-fitting compassionate sheep suit--and been perfectly happy with the discovery... until Bush's sheer incompetency turned the secret dream of the right wing to shit.

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  39. And Guy Andrew Hall (ROOK)...glad to see ya break your haitus and join us for this one!

    ;-)

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  40. Fantastic post Glenn.

    Hopefully this live grenade you describe goes off before the mid-term elections.

    I am worried that a manufactured emergency will arise as an October surprise though.

    My tinfoil hat's waves give me the sinking feeling that Bush's signing statements are a means to an end. The radical agenda you so ably describe through your posts has given a shape and meaning to the feelings I've harbored over the last few years that this administration is deliberately undermining our democracy in an attempt to destabilize; to what end I'm not exactly sure.

    The policies they advocate, and their nightmarish physical policy has brought this nation to a precipice. This has been done, I think, for very specific reason. I had not held this belief until recently, but as time has shown the depths of depravity and hostility to the consitution that this administration harbors, I have come to the conclusion that the intention is to destroy our democracy and to create a theocractic fascist state.

    Because they virtually have no popular support anymore and their plans have not yet been realized (although some would argue that we are already in a defacto Bushian regime) I truly beleive that we will be seeing a very large manufactured crisis very soon.

    Anyway...Glenn, thank you again for the great post. I ordered three of your books awhile back to share with my "conservative" family members and am eagerly awaiting their arrival.

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  41. yankeependragon said...

    From Bart at 2:03PM: "You can gloat and hope that GOP turnout this fall is depressed enough for the minority party can gain control of a house of Congress, but the charge of hypocrisy is misplaced."

    While I do find the glacial crack-up of the GOP coalition amusing,


    You wish.

    Unhappiness with a Bush is hardly a "crackup" of the GOP coalition of any magnitude. They are not divided over many issues, they are unhappy about Bush straying off the reservation.

    Bush is no longer on the ballot. If current polls are any indication, Hillary is going to get completely spanked by the GOP candidate in 2008 with votes for Congress following suit.

    Enjoy this Bush discontent while you can. There will be fresh faces in 2008.

    You raise a fair point about President Clinton, who if I recall did come into office intent upon some common-sense reforms to extant government programs (welfare among them). He didn't seek the wholesale dismantling of them as either Presidents Reagan or the current Bush have.

    That is irrelevant. He signed off on them.

    And there was never a collective disassociation of Clinton on the left as we're presently seeing on the right with the current President. Was there criticism of him and his policies? Yes. Was there an outcry of him being really a 'conservative' as opposed to a 'liberal'? No.

    THIS is the definition of Hypocrisy - supporting policies which you adamantly oppose in a desperate bid to hold onto political power.

    Nothing has changed. When your Donkey Senator and Congressman vote for the DeWine Bill ratifying the NSA program just before the elections, you folks will still vote to reelect them.

    I have no trouble with the GOP coalition disciplining apostasy by withholding support, even if our candidate loses an election. It maintains the political discipline lacking with the Donkeys.

    You see, I have no fear of losing long term power by presenting a conservative face to the voters. That is the majority position in this country. The GOP only fails when it trends to the left.

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  42. "Thus, you have to lie or be seen by the vast majority of Americans as giving aid and comfort to al Qaeda..."

    Probably 99% of America favors listening to al Qaeda. What a good portion of American don't favor, however, is the authorization of secret spying in which there is no way of knowing who is being spied on.

    A favorite habit of yours is to encourage Glenn or others here to continue making the arguments we make because you believe candidates you favor can be elected because of it. With that in mind, I encourage you to continue insinuating that Americans who are opposed to warrantless wiretapping of American citizens are guilty of a crime punishable by death.

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  43. Anonymous4:20 PM

    From Bart at 4:01PM:

    "No, I understand the need for you to lie that the NSA is targeting Americans and not al Qaeda. Well over 70% of Americans support listening in on al Qaeda. Thus, you have to lie or be seen by the vast majority of Americans as giving aid and comfort to al Qaeda..."

    You missed your calling. Instead of law you should have gone into stand-up comedy.

    Look, we don't know who this program the NSA is running is targeting. I'd suggest public support for monitoring Al Qaeda is closer to 100%. The problem however lies in the nature of the opponent.

    Given the Al Qaeda network is so diffuse and decentralized now (thanks in no small measure to the Administration's half-arsed job of it in Afghanistan and the subsequent expedition into Iraq), the NSA can't simply look up names in a directory for its membership. Additionally, the fact this particular program has already been admitted to fall under the aegis of FISA and the Administration has consistently declined to follow its provisions doesn't help the Administration's case any.

    Do we know for sure this program is targeting *only* Al Qaeda members? No.

    Has the Bush Administration earned even a small measure of trust on this issue? No.

    Call it 'giving aid and comfort' if you wish. The wiser, more rational among us will call it 'acting intelligently'.

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  44. Anonymous4:23 PM

    Labeling Bush a "liberal" illustrates the wilful, and ongoing, misinterpretation of what liberalism is.

    As Glenn points out, liberalism isn't about "Big Government for the sake of Big Government."

    Political liberalism is about levelling the playing field, so that no one is trapped in a life of despair and poverty for reasons that have nothing to do with their own personal abilities and virtues. That is, no one should be denied autonomy, self-responsibility, and dignity because of their race, gender, nationality, etc.

    That political liberals have generally looked to the federal government to address inequity and discrimination is because it's the federal government that has the reach and the resources necessary.

    To use an obsolete but clear example: If your intent is to eliminate slavery, it does little good to outlaw slavery in one state when the next does not. It does even less good to outlaw slavery in one state when there's an overriding federal law mandating that runaway slaves be returned to their owners. The only viable solution is federal.

    Apply that to today's inequities and discrimination, and the model still holds.

    Conservatives - traditional ones, that is; not today's version - simply believed that the government had no business regulating, well, anything. If conservatives believed in a Common Good or Public Welfare at all, they defined it in strictly economic terms. Economic advancement is a Good, because economic advancement enables one to be independent; any bars to economic advancement should be worked out in the marketplace, not in the political arena.

    That philosophy reckons without the reality that there is no "free market," that the market is already structured for the benefit of the already-haves, and that corporate tax and subsidy policies not only protect corporate interests but sap local entities' ability to address the inequities themselves.

    When, for example, a single industry can essentially destroy an entire city or town simply by pulling out - and uses that influence to gain tax advantages for itself, thus creating a cycle of protectionism and skewed taxation - that's hardly a "free market."

    And the same thing happens when you have monopolies: if a company is the only game in town, whether for telecom or news reporting, there is no free marketplace, because competition is vital to a free marketplace. (That's as true for a "marketplace of ideas" as well as a marketplace for commodities.)

    It would be nice if liberalism and conservatism could get back to debating the best way to realize the ideals of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." But first they have to agree that those are things all persons have an inalienable right to. Insofar as I'm able to determine what modern "conservatism" stands for at all, it's not that, not by a long shot.

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  45. I think C.L. is right that Bush’s NSA programs are in part to set up a state apparatus “that will undermine dissent and criticism” – and this is really quite a new development under Bush – it is radical, but it will also become a “conservative” idea – even though some conservatives will oppose it.

    In short, they are setting the ground work for a “police state” political environment that is at odds with the ideas of many “conservatives” – just as Reagan’s embrace of the authoritarian Religious Right was at odds with the Goldwater-type conservatives.

    Reagan legitimized the Religious Right by appointing people like Gary Bauer, and Bush will attempt to legitimize the new “military” intelligence community by Hayden’s appointment. This is just part of the accumulation of power that we see in his legal theories and “signing statements.”

    This development, once again, will point to the schizophrenic aspect of modern conservatism that Glenn mentioned in a comment.

    That is why we are starting to see some Republicans troubled by Hayden’s appointment – because it means the intelligence community will be under military rather than civilian control. Not every conservative will be happy about that – especially the ones heeding Eisenhower’s forgotten advise about the threats posed by the military industrial complex.

    So Bush’s radicalism will actually increase the split in the “conservative” coalition which is increasingly dysfunctional and patched together by their love of tax cuts and hatred of liberals and programs which don’t benefit the wealthy.

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  46. Anonymous4:31 PM

    From Bart at 3:59PM:

    (Re: Clinton's welfare reforms)"That is irrelevant. He signed off on them."

    Yes, he did, and yes, that's fundamentally irrelevant to the matter under discussion.

    "THIS is the definition of Hypocrisy - supporting policies which you adamantly oppose in a desperate bid to hold onto political power."

    My word! You mean George W Bush came into office with the expressed intention of a new drug entitlement added to Medicare or to push this 'immigrant amnesty' initiative? Which item numbers were those in his first and second term agendas?

    "I have no trouble with the GOP coalition disciplining apostasy by withholding support, even if our candidate loses an election. It maintains the political discipline lacking with the Donkeys."

    Actually the only thing the GOP has shown the last two Presidential election cycles is that it will hammer anyone their base supporters and corporate paymasters. Or was I just imagining the attacks on John McCain six years ago?

    "You see, I have no fear of losing long term power by presenting a conservative face to the voters. That is the majority position in this country. The GOP only fails when it trends to the left."

    You don't fear it because you know, deep in your soul, the GOP is too empty and self-destructive to remain in power for any length. Don't worry, I used to vote for the elephants as well. Then I grew up.

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  47. Anonymous4:43 PM

    It may be instructive to note that this tactic of denying their own has been a feature of fundamentalist thinking for a long, long time.

    Among fundies, if you "backslide," it's because you were "never really saved in the first place." Doesn't matter if you went to church three times a week for 20 years, raised your kids in the church, whatever -- the minute you spout anything remotely apostate, or do something that might shame the congregation, all else is forgotten. You were never one of us.

    Forgiveness? Oh, please. You've got to be kidding. Fundies don't do forgiveness, unless there's a long, grueling public humiliation ritual performed first (cf Jimmy Swaggart, Chuck Colson). Besides, part of Bush's sociopathy is that it would never occur to him that he needs forgiveness for anything.

    This defense mechanism is pretty much necessary if you're a True Believer of any stripe. As Glenn has pointed out: the ideology is never wrong. There are simply people who act on it wrongly.

    It's a well-established fact that conservatism runs on deep-seated social and psychological fear. The system is, in fact, set up to create and perpetuate these fears in its followers in order to keep them in the fold. The threat that you could be exposed at an apostate at any moment, for any small wrong action, is one of the essential engines of that fear -- and it cranks up to the redline when the community feels like it's under attack.

    The right wing is feeling that heat now, which means the bodies of the heretics are going to start piling up in East Bloggingham's town squares. Purging the infidel is the only way they know to restore God's grace to the faithful.

    Let a thousand bonfires bloom.

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  48. Anonymous4:48 PM

    I posted something similar on "conseratives trying to distance themselves from Bush the liberal", which I will posted again (although I have rewritten it a little bit):

    For the Nixon debate, it isn't just conseratives that have called Nixon liberal. Both Ralph Nader and Michael Moore have called Nixon the most liberal of the 7 presidents. However, I don't think Bush will get that label any time soon and Nader and Moore called Nixon a liberal for reasons that have nothing to have to do with that fact that Nixon became an embarrasment for the GOP party.

    As for conseratives and liberals, it's debatable if "conseratives" and "liberals" actually exist since whatever defines a true conserative and liberal has long left the political landscape and is now merely lables than ideology.

    The last couple of years, liberal got the same meaning as a@@@hole, s---head. Democratic challengers as John Kerry and Howard Dean shied away from the dreaded term, "liberal." Those conseratives as Pat Buchanan and Bob Barr who did hold Bush's feet to the fire early on, were "liberals." A couple of months ago, as Glenn pointed out, "conserative" meant agreeing with Bush. Now that the
    Bush movement is becoming more and more a failure, he is a "liberal" too, which is nothing in the political sense, but just namecalling. "Liberal" is a dirty word.

    Bush, for the record, I don't think follows any ideology or even cares about it. He just wants to be president. That's why he only comes alive during campagining as opposed to governing. He has the drive and passion enough when I saw him campaign in 2000 and 2004, so he succeeds, but when he becomes president, he doesn't seem to really care anymore. Unlike Clinton and Reagan, who seem to get off on constant public approval and would never let their approval ratings get this low (in fact they never did), that he was elected president is all that matters to Bush. That's why it's no secret that he has lost almost all of the goodwill he built before 9/11. He got the goodwill already which was enough reward for him. He doesn't try to maintain it as Reagan and Clinton would do.

    The other thing that drives Bush is his ability to outdo his father. Those goals were no new taxes FOR REAL, a second term, and taking down Saddam Hussein. Well, he got his second term, he has Hussein (who cares about the result of the Iraq war? Bush himself said that's the next president's problem) and it's safe to say that will no be new taxes for the remainder of the term. (Never mind, if his policies as an Iraq war and the Medicare prescription plan will lead to future taxes. That's the next president's problem.) Given that Bush met his goals, its hard to expect anything from him that will change the situation right now or why he should care what damages he may inflict upon the GOP.

    The other thing that gets brought up from Bart and Hypatia is the "war" aura that Bush brings. I think that "war" aura is dying. Iraq isn't popular and the tepid boxoffice response of United 93 indicates that as time goes on, a candidate's war stance will mean little. People are fatigued from it and will want something different by 2008. The fact that Carter served in the military meant little in 1976 when he got elected, we just wanted to forgot Nixon and that Vietnam era PERIOD.

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  49. As backing for the notion that the NSA program is as much the beginning of a state apparatus to stamp out domestic dissent as it is to find terrorist, I note the refual of CIA Director Desinate Hayden's refusal to answer an direct question about whether this program targets enemies of the administration. The quote and the audio of this exchange are making the rounds of the 'net.

    Another instance of the state apparatus to stamp out domestic dissent comes in the US World News and Report article that describes the expanding domestic surveillance program to state and local police units. You might also wish to see the sidebar article at USNews and World Report which documents the 50s and 60s programs that did much of the same thing.

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  50. For the last 25 years politics in America has been little more than marketing based brand warfare campaign. A good analogy would be Coke vs. Pepsi. The two products are very similar and preference is driven by advertising and slight difference in taste, but no one really knows the recipe for either, or cares. The words conservative and liberal have lost any real meaning for most Americans. It's just a matter of picking a side and rooting for your team.

    A good predictor for the success of the Bush re-branding effort is the Dubai Ports World debacle. For years the administration and their supporters used hysterical rhetoric to fuel and exploit fear, anger, bigotry, xenophobia, and exceptionalist zeal and to convince Americans that the atrocities being committed in their name were not only justified, but that the administration would be negligent in not committing them. Americans were convinced that if there was even the remotest possibility someone might have some connection to or predisposition toward supporting evil-doing terrists (such as by having brown skin or being a Muslim), that the only reasonable course of action was to imprison torture and kill them. Anything less just wouldn't be prudent. When people found out that operation of American ports (widely recognized as one of the weakest points in our national defense) was going to be turned over to an Arab and Muslim country with more credible connections to Al Qaeda then the last one we invaded, and which engaged in many of the same policies toward Israel for which we condemn the Hammas-led Palestinian Authority, but that this was ok because these were rich corporate Arabs so there was nothing to worry about, it was a level of cognitive dissonance that even many cultists couldn't accommodate. The actual risks and benefits of the deal were never relevant. The climate of fear and hate the administration and their supporters had created to exploit for their own ends was beyond even their control.

    There has been far too much energy, emotion and psychological need invested in Bush the myth to be undone now. Unfortunately, I don't see the outcome as the administration becoming impotent, mired in scandal and leaving in disgrace along with much of the Republican party. I think the lower their support is the less they will feel they have to lose and the more extreme their actions will be. If they feel their power is threatened, they may go to any lengths to protect it, or to use it while they still can.

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  51. Great post, Glenn.

    Goldwater republicans like Goldberg think that a belief in small government is cental to conservatism. They believe--at least theoretically--that small government is a "good" in and of itself. They assume therefore that the converse is also true, that a central tenet of liberalism is a belief in the intrinsic value of big government. But that is total nonsense.

    As you point out, to the extent liberals support "big government" policies, it is for purely instrumental reasons. Liberals don't think "big government" is a good in and of itself. They think that government involvement, in some cases, is the best way to achieve other goals (e.g. reducing poverty, providing health care, etc.).

    If there are "small government" ways of achieving these same results, liberals are more than willing to support them.

    And liberals most certainly do not support the use of big government policies for illiberal purposes.

    So it's totally absurd to suggest that Bush's support for big government policies makes him even remotely "liberal".

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  52. Anonymous5:29 PM

    Big governments all look alike in the dark. They have mustaches.

    I beg to differ. Big liberal governments aim to free individual people to make their own choices and to stop powerful people from abusing the weak.

    Big republican governments aim to control every aspect of individuals personal lives all the way into the bedroom and to enable powerful people to abuse the weak.

    Only one moustache there if you ask me.

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  53. Anonymous5:31 PM

    MILTON FRIEDMAN on PBS: "Nixon was the most socialist of the presidents of the United States in the 20th century."

    Of course, Uncle Milty was funnier when he wore a dress...

    Randians are insane.

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  54. Anonymous5:32 PM

    Why are the conservatives grumbling? Because they think Bush has been acting left far too much and they are losing patience. They no long have to support Bush because the alternative is worse.

    I'm sorry that you don't want to claim Bush, but we conservatives/libertarians are unhappy because Bush has foisted a leftist Medicare boondogle on us and refuses to cut spending.


    Funny, I would have thought all the jack booted thug hating libertarian separatists would have been slightly concerned about the spying on americans thing. Was it really the insuring the poor and elderly that got you? What a bunch of heartless, dishonest amoral bastards you guys are.

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  55. Anonymous5:33 PM

    Big governments all look alike in the dark. They have mustaches.

    Big Gubmint? Who coined that phrase? I bet it was someone in government in the pocket of Big Bidness.

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  56. Anonymous5:39 PM

    which Will seems to have a pretty good handle on.

    Bwahahaha! George Will? The guy who said he was glad the adults (Bushco) are finally back in the White House... Will has disproved Adlai Stevenson's observation so many times, it's a wonder we don't feed the hungry with his "pronouncements".

    "Man does not live by words alone, despite the fact that sometimes he has to eat them."
    Adlai E. Stevenson

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  57. Anonymous5:44 PM

    Goldwater republicans like Goldberg

    That's downright insulting to Barry Goldwater, who wouldn't piss on that Doughy Pantload from a great height to put him out if he were on fire, turning him into crispy brown dinner roll.

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  58. Anonymous5:53 PM

    For what it's worth--in answer to Bart's question, the answer to which he assumes he knows, thus making of his question an intended "gotcha!"--one of the reasons I turned against Clinton was precisely because of his acts which were violations of his so-called "progressive" or "liberal" stances. His signing of the "welfare reform" bill was, of course, among the more prominent of such betrayals by Clinton of his purported commitment to the economically disadvantaged.

    I voted for Clinton--reluctantly--in 1992, primarily as a vote AGAINST Bush pere, and in 1996 I voted for Ralph Nader.

    Given that I was not in favor of Clinton's capitulation to conservative policy initiatives, and given also that I was in favor of his impeachment--not for the sex, but for the lying--I still recognize that he was a vastly superior chief executive to Bush on his best day, and he left office having improved, overall, the mess which had been left him by 12 years of Reagan/Bush stewardship.

    Most Americans, presumably, are concerned less with "holding on to power" through the auspices of "their party" holding majorities in Congress or residing in the White House, than with the general improvement of conditions for the commonweal. If such improvements derive from a Republican or Democratic administration, more power to either of them which accomplish it.

    Bart has made some fatuous arguments on this blog for as long as I've noticed him--including his laughable aside on this very thread that Al Gore was "prevented by the Supreme Court from manufacturing votes" in 2000 in order to take Bush's rightful victory away from him..yeah, right--as well as some arguments revelatory of his essentially fascist sympathies for the exercise of power absent any leavening of humanity--as in his assertions that we have no obligation to allow domestic residence--political asylum--for those Gitmo detainees who have been determined to be "free to go," but who have been detained nontheless, because, supposedly, if we release them to their own countries they'll be "imprisoned, tortured or killed." However, can even Bart argue that Bush has been better for this country than Clinton? That Bush has been a better chief executive than Clinton?

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  59. Conservatism is not a philosophy or an "ism", it is a feeling: "things shouldn't change." Since everyone has that feeling at least some of the time, conservatism always has a very broad appeal.

    Political conservatism is the feeling that *power* shouldn't change, that the people (individuals, families, or groups) who were powerful when I was young should be the powerful ones when I am old. That's why 19th-century conservatives were in favor of hereditary aristocracy, while 21st-century ones favor large corporations.

    To my mind the Republican abandoment of the professed principles of "movement conservatism" (small government, low public debt) doesn't show that they aren't "really" conservatives, it just proves that political conservatism is and was always about unchanging structures of power.

    Bush II was and is extremely and consistently conservative, *nakedly* conservative: everything he has done is with the aim of giving more power to the powerful. It is the other conservatives, the ones who have tried to cloaked their feelings in a philosophy or a set of principles, whose imperfect conservatism is being exposed.

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  60. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  61. From Bart at 4:01PM: "No, I understand the need for you to lie that the NSA is targeting Americans and not al Qaeda. Well over 70% of Americans support listening in on al Qaeda. Thus, you have to lie or be seen by the vast majority of Americans as giving aid and comfort to al Qaeda..."

    Oooh my, I hit a nerve here, didn't I?

    Hume: Probably 99% of America favors listening to al Qaeda. What a good portion of American don't favor, however, is the authorization of secret spying in which there is no way of knowing who is being spied on.

    1) Feel free to give me the poll where Americans oppose the classification of the program listening in on al Qaeda.

    2) Americans and the enemy now knows that we listen in on al Qeada thanks to the felons at the NYT.

    A favorite habit of yours is to encourage Glenn or others here to continue making the arguments we make because you believe candidates you favor can be elected because of it.

    You are just picking this up after I have been taunting you openly for a couple months now?

    With that in mind, I encourage you to continue insinuating that Americans who are opposed to warrantless wiretapping of American citizens are guilty of a crime punishable by death.

    What warrantless wiretapping of US citizens? There you go again lying to cover up the fact that you oppose listening in on al Qaeda.

    yankeependragon said...Look, we don't know who this program the NSA is running is targeting....Do we know for sure this program is targeting *only* Al Qaeda members? No.

    Yes you do. The felons at the NYT told you and al Qaeda. Over 20 of our representatives and senators have been fully briefs and seen this program in action and none of them dispute this.

    What you have absolutely no evidence to say is that this program is aimed at innocent American citizens.

    Call it 'giving aid and comfort' if you wish. The wiser, more rational among us will call it 'acting intelligently'.

    How is it EVER intelligent to inform the enemy about the means and methods used by your country to spy on them?

    How could such information do anything but provide aid and comfort to that enemy?

    Try putting aside your hatred for George Bush for maybe 5 minutes and think long and hard about that.

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  62. Anonymous6:01 PM

    While trying to decide whether labels are worth addressing, let me quote George Will regarding this ....

    CaseyL said...
    It would be nice if liberalism and conservatism could get back to debating the best way to realize the ideals of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." But first they have to agree that those are things all persons have an inalienable right to.

    Please note that "it is the pursuit of happiness, not the delivery of happiness." Not the guarantee of, or right of, happiness. Only the pursuit of.
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Whoever came up with the absurd figure that 5% of the country owns 90% of the wealth needs to document that.
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Lastly, it doesn't really matter if Bush is labeled a liberal, conservative, compassionate conservative, theocon, neocon, or Rubicon. There is still absolutely nothing in this debate that is a compelling reason to vote for Democrats. Two or three vetoes of spending bills will be complete rehabilitation for Bush and conservatism.

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  63. Anonymous6:02 PM

    (When Bush does initiate a domestic policy idea himself, it's likely to be something like social-security privatization, a conservative idea, albeit a disastrous one.)


    I'm not sure I would go along with the characterization of this (privitazition of social security) as a conservative idea, although you will find it's proponents on the right, and therefore, confuse them with actual conservatives. As Eisenhower said in a 1954 confidential letter to his brother Edgar...

    This is what I mean by my constant insistence upon "moderation" in government. Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid.

    According to Ike, I'm either a moderate or a conservative. But some wingnuts, because there is no better name for them, think I'm a "radical leftist".

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  64. yankeependragon said...

    From Bart at 3:59PM: (Re: Clinton's welfare reforms)"That is irrelevant. He signed off on them."

    Yes, he did, and yes, that's fundamentally irrelevant to the matter under discussion.


    To start, Clinton signed off on the Gingrich welfare reforms which placed a hard limit on the length of time you could be on welfare.

    Second, this is relevant because you were claiming that Clinton supported this all along. He did not. The Clinton plan had none of the hard reforms of the Gingrich bill. Clinton signed off on the Gingrich bill to get reelected.

    Bart: "You see, I have no fear of losing long term power by presenting a conservative face to the voters. That is the majority position in this country. The GOP only fails when it trends to the left."

    You don't fear it because you know, deep in your soul, the GOP is too empty and self-destructive to remain in power for any length. Don't worry, I used to vote for the elephants as well. Then I grew up.


    I dunno, what is your idea of a length of time?

    Elephants or southern Donkeys prentending to be Elephants have been running the White House since 1968. No Donkey has received a majority of the national vote since Carter, and that was right after Watergate.

    The GOP has run Congress for over a decade now without any real sign they will lose power anytime soon. It is possible that the Dems could take a one vote lead in the House if they sweep the board in 2006, but they will get creamed again in the 2008 general elections when Hillary loses by about 6 points.

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  65. Anonymous6:16 PM

    By the way, I come from a family of staunch conservatives--all of whom, to my everlasting astonishment, still support Bush--and both my uncle and my father have voiced the belief that "any government big enough to do anything for you is big enough to do anything TO you." My response has been, "the government is already big enough to do anything TO us, so we ought to DEMAND they begin doing things FOR us!"

    They are of the stripe who think any regulation whatsoever of corporations--requirements, for example, that big companies provide safe work environments or that they don't dump their trash in the public living room--is indicative of "bureaucratic intrusions" into the "right" of businesses to pursue their affairs unimpeded. They don't recognize that such regulatory oversight to prevent corporate abuse of the public sphere came about in response to public outrage over dangerous work conditions, unsanitary products, pollution of the land, air and water by corporate effluvia, and so on.

    In short, we HAVE big government, and there's no going back to any idyllic land of "small government." So, we have to decide how we're going to use big government, and how we're going to check its power while using it for the public benefit. Strong congressional oversight of the President, and strong public oversight of the Congress, and strong regulatory oversight of corporate power, are among the ways.

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  66. Anonymous6:17 PM

    Pooter: Whoever came up with the absurd figure that 5% of the country owns 90% of the wealth needs to document that.

    Actually, that is more close to the global breakdown. It's not quite that bad in the U.S... yet, but it's heading that way as fast as Bush's poll numbers are diving for the floorboards. Why don't you find some cool "statistics" and pretty 4 color charts and graphs from Heritage, Club for Growth, Cato or AEI to refute it. Then we can all have a good laugh at your expense.

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  67. Robert1014 said...

    I voted for Clinton--reluctantly--in 1992, primarily as a vote AGAINST Bush pere, and in 1996 I voted for Ralph Nader.

    Good man, you have principles. Will you vote against your Senator and Representative when they vote to ratify the NSA Program this fall?

    I was in favor of his impeachment--not for the sex, but for the lying...

    Damn, you do have principles!

    Bart has made some fatuous arguments on this blog for as long as I've noticed him--including his laughable aside on this very thread that Al Gore was "prevented by the Supreme Court from manufacturing votes" in 2000 in order to take Bush's rightful victory away from him..

    Did you actually watch the television coverage of the ballot counting in Palm Beach, Broward and Miami Dade? They were making up votes on live television which somehow never appeared in the multiple media "recounts" after this attempted election fraud was stopped.

    However, can even Bart argue that Bush has been better for this country than Clinton? That Bush has been a better chief executive than Clinton?

    Depends on what subject area you are referring:

    Spending restraint - Clinton by far.

    Taxes - Bush by far.

    Free trade - Tie. This was a Clinton strength.

    Military - Bush.

    Social issues - Bush.

    Dude, I think Clinton was generally a good President on domestic issues apart from taxes and Hillarycare. He was intelligent enough to see the conservative direction of the country and conform most of his policies to it. That is why you voted for Nader.

    As with most of his generation of Donkeys, Clinton simply will not use force when necessary in foreign policy. He was inept and feckless when it came to North Korea, Iraq, Iran and al Qaeda.

    Clinton was a felon in his private life while President and should have been impeached like Nixon should have been impeached.

    I oppose nearly all of Bush's domestic policy except for his tax rate reductions, his ban on partial birth abortion and his judicial appointments.

    The reason why I voted for Bush in 2004 when you jumped ship for Nader in 1996 is that Bush is a good CiC who will not abandon the fight while were are at war. Kerry would have cut and run from Iraq like Clinton did from Somalia.

    If we were not at war, I may have jumped ship on George II like I did with George I after he raised taxes.

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  68. Anonymous6:25 PM

    That is the majority position in this country.

    No its not. Your stating it as a fact is less than impressive, and the polls I have read say tha american populace is really more in line with liberalism than even they themselves believe.

    You see, I have no fear of losing long term power by presenting a conservative face to the voters.

    The whole point of this and and all the articles linked to is that Bush is now the face of conservitism. Sure, the iron fisted party line enforcement worked well in the short term.

    But now, cliaming conservitive credintials is to be seen as a Bush enabler(toadie)

    This country is about 33%,33%,33%.

    You have lost the mushy middle for at least a generation. You come in here in some attempt a psuedo-intellectiual argument, but forgot that the mushy middle has been manipulated by your side with fear and 30 second appeals to latent anti-intilectualism.

    So now the gut feeling crowd has the gut feeling that conservitaves are a bunch of blow-hard losers. Without the libs saying a damn thing. And we are learning the art of jingo-ism.

    Republicans(conservitives) are all about unrestrained corperate greed and incompetence.

    Talk your way out of that one.

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  69. Anonymous6:30 PM

    EWO talks about liberals needing to come clean about their love for big govt, and Hypatia thinks the real problem with Dems is their pacifist streak that nobody trusts. These are indications that the attempt to keep the discussion within strict parameters is succeeding.

    I just ignore this drivel, the backwash that dribbles down their chins as they gulp the kool-aid down. I don't know any real pacifists personally. I do know that almost all COs who chose to serve as unarmed medics during WWII were some of the most decorated in that conflict and earned the most undying respect of their fellow soldiers. Government is big in America, like everything else, and it should be. If you want smaller gubmint, move to a smaller country. It should also be efficient, unobtrusive and responsive to all the people, not special interests or corporations.

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  70. Anonymous6:32 PM

    Nuf Said said...
    Hypatia said"The robust, liberal Cold War hawks died with Scoop Jackson..."

    Excuse me?


    The woman is batty. She keeps threatening to leave.

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  71. "You are just picking this up after I have been taunting you openly for a couple months now?"

    You're just now picking up on the fact that I've been openly ignoring the majority of things you post because I think it doesn't merit a response?

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  72. Anonymous6:34 PM

    Government can be big and lean, or it can be big and fat. Size doesn't matter, does it?

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  73. Anonymous6:41 PM

    From Bart at 6:05PM:

    "Second, this is relevant because you were claiming that Clinton supported this all along. He did not. The Clinton plan had none of the hard reforms of the Gingrich bill. Clinton signed off on the Gingrich bill to get reelected."

    Clinton billed himself as a reformer and attempted to actually accomplish those reforms. The fact Congress came under Republican control in his first term simply meant those reforms materialized in a somewhat different, but still fundamentally positive (at least in intent) form.

    What happened with Clinton however is in no way instructive on what is happening with President Bush now. At no time was Clinton labeled a 'conservative' by the left-side of the dial; at present, the right-side can't jettison President Bush fast enough and is desperate to re-brand him as a 'liberal'.

    Now, I'm still waiting to hear from you on the other points I raised, provided you can actually address them.

    As to you last assertion:

    "The GOP has run Congress for over a decade now without any real sign they will lose power anytime soon. It is possible that the Dems could take a one vote lead in the House if they sweep the board in 2006, but they will get creamed again in the 2008 general elections when Hillary loses by about 6 points."

    Leaving aside the contradiction the first sentence poses (especially in light of recent polling data) and your inherently conservative prediction for November, I'd like to know what you predicate your belief that the presumptive nominee will be Senator Clinton and that she will cause the Democrats to get 'creamed' (beyond an instinctive Clinton hatred and the fact there are no Republican candidates worth their salt at this time, that is).

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  74. Anonymous6:49 PM

    Bart: Quiz time kiddies!

    How many of you voted for Clinton and supported him throughout his presidency? Be honest now.

    OK, how many of you supported the Reagan goals of welfare reform, cutting the growth in the Medicare and Medicaid entitlements, cutting social spending and free trade?

    My, I don't see nearly as many hands.


    Bart is hallucinating.

    Eyes Wide Open still confuses economic systems with forms of government, even thinks capitalism is a political party.


    Confuses the size of government with the style of government...

    big government will always lead to totalitarianism.

    That government governs best which governs least.



    Is it any wonder they call them wingnuts?

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  75. Anonymous6:49 PM

    Nuf Said writes: The Seattle Times reports the following gentlemen (sic) as former Jackson staff members:
    Richard Perle, Doug Feith, Elliott Abrams.


    Yes, very true. As McGovernism took over the Democratic party in the 70s, many Democrats became "neoconservatives" and poured into the GOP. It is these former Democrats who are a large source of current GOP policy.

    But whatever you think of that foreign policy today, and if you believe all of their Cold War positions and enthusiasm for defense spending was misguided, my point stands: Democrats have long been widely perceived to be weak on national security and defense. That began with the literal and political demise of Scoop Jackson. Wailing that a lot of those who were yesteryear's strong-on-defense Democrats are today's GOP neocons, doesn't get you very far with the electorate that doesn't think McGovernism is a safe answer to neo-conservatism. You don't need to convince me or people commenting at a blog that Jackson-like hawkishness vis-a-vis the USSR was a bad idea; there are voters you must convince.

    (And I have no quarrel with supporting Israel, depending on what one thinks that should entail.)

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  76. Anonymous6:51 PM

    Hume's Ghost said...
    "You are just picking this up after I have been taunting you openly for a couple months now?"

    You're just now picking up on the fact that I've been openly ignoring the majority of things you post because I think it doesn't merit a response?

    6:33 PM


    I thought the fact that he sees imaginary people raising hands was notable.

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  77. Anonymous6:55 PM

    As McGovernism took over the Democratic party in the 70s

    Bwahahaha! That's a new one. Of course, I don't waste my time hanging around the fever swamps of "libertarianism" and planning my next election campaign strategy in my run for local dog catcher.

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  78. Anonymous6:59 PM

    Google "McGovernism". LMAO!

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  79. Anonymous7:04 PM

    shooter242: Lastly, it doesn't really matter if Bush is labeled a liberal, conservative, compassionate conservative, theocon, neocon, or Rubicon. There is still absolutely nothing in this debate that is a compelling reason to vote for Democrats. Two or three vetoes of spending bills will be complete rehabilitation for Bush and conservatism.

    Heh. So Bush vetoes a couple of spending bills that add up to 0.1% of the deficit (if he actually does, since he's never followed through on a veto threat before), and conservatives cheer "see, he's not a big spender, he's one of us!", eh?

    Good thing for him that the ability to do math is apparently a "liberal" thing.

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  80. Anonymous7:08 PM

    Now here is a piece about "McGovernism" that come from one of the few Con rags I read.

    The American Conservative.

    The link is to The UnCapitalist, which links to the AmCon. I did that to piss some of you off.


    January 30, 2006 Issue
    Copyright © 2006 The American Conservative



    Come Home, America


    Liberals need another George McGovern—and perhaps conservatives do too.


    By Bill Kauffman

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  81. Anonymous7:12 PM

    Shooter - it's closer to 1% of the country having a third of the wealth.

    A lot of nuance is lost by referring to things as percentages rather than absolute values, but those are the sources I could find. Looking at wealth is more informative than looking at income, as the census bureau does.

    It's a mistake to lump the population into quintiles (as the Heritage foundation does) because the asymmetry appears at every slice. In that top 1%, most of the wealth is concentrated in the top .01%. Bill Gates has more net worth than the bottom 45% of American households.

    Some income and wealth inequality is, of course, unavoidable. The concern is the level of income inequality and its direction. Income inequality distorts the democratic fabric, and the more inequality there is the more democracy is distorted.

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  82. Anonymous7:15 PM

    As Glenn says, "It is conservatives whose support twice put him in office, who vigorously supported him for virtually his entire presidency (snip).

    The fact that all of a sudden is being ignored by Republicans doing their "Distancing From Bush Act" is the the Republican Congress has not only supported Bush in his agenda but has expanded spending at every opportunity. Even with the spotlight on them, they cannot resist adding pork projects to legislation as exhibited by the current appropriations for Iraq and Katrina funding. It is my understanding this one has a road to nowhere to compliment the highway to nowhere. While against any and all spending programs that help real people, they see no problem in implementing and funding large dollar corporate welfare programs to assist their political donors and all of their cronies. All pay for play avenues have been expanded under the Republican majority and much of it displayed quite openly for those who were paying attention. Such as distributing Tobacco checks on the House floor and Delay opening telling K Street that they must be a pure Republican lobbying firm if they expected to have their issues addressed.

    Personally I pay enough out of pocket for gas, medicine and health care etc. and I resent having my taxes used to pay obscenely profitable corporation more of my money.

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  83. Anonymous7:15 PM

    Hyfascia.

    I can play with words too.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Anonymous7:24 PM

    Here's a nice book for you guys and gals. You know who you are, the ones with vibrissaphobia. It's not doing as well as Glenn's book, but Glenn's book has a decidedly "liberal bias".

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  85. Anonymous7:29 PM

    ggr

    personally,

    i think republican "conservatives", actually, radicals in word and deed,

    are distancing themselves from bush

    in order to improve their chances of nominating another republican of their stripe for president in 2008.

    what these clever lads, like krystal, are frightened will happen

    is that republican regulars and the electorate in general will identify the republican radicals with bush and bush with the radicals

    to such an extent that the radical movement will be branded with a terrible reputation in american politics for a long time into the future.


    hence their effort to make the argument that bush is sui generis, rather than a natural product of radical politics.

    in short, republican radicals seem to understand that George w. bush is

    a heavy, heavy anvil

    chained around the neck of their movement -- both domestic and foreign sections.

    personally, i hope the equivalency of bush and the radical republicans will indeed be firmly established in the national memory.

    but, whatever my hopes,

    this country really does need an intellectually and politically competent republican party.

    it may actually come to pass that bush does drown the radical republican movement.

    thereby allowing the republican party to move back to center and act in line with both the needs and the life experiences of Americans in first decades of the 21st century.

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  86. Anonymous7:30 PM

    big government will always lead to totalitarianism.

    I'll be taking a bit of a hiatus from Glenn's blog. I'm off on an important expedition. I know that somewhere under frozen, snow covered ground in Sweden are mass graves. I intend to find them. I will report back when I have uncovered the awful truth!

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  87. Anonymous7:31 PM

    Great post. Kudos for exposing and articulating the unwarranted jump people make. People assume that if you're a big spender, you can't be a true conservative, and therefore, you must be a liberal. The former is true, but it doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion in the latter. I doubt if the assumption is intentional; I think it's unchallenged thinking that has become ingrained.

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  88. My figures about the top 5 percent owning 90 percent of the total waelth was misstated. As these figures show, the top 10 percent in the US own 70% of the total wealth in the US. These figures break that 70% down into finer economic criteria.

    What I misstated was the fact that the increases in income over the last 25 years have gone to the top 5 percent in the US. As Doug Henwood notes:

    Another way of thinking of this is that about 95% of the benefits of economic growth over the last 25 years have gone to the richest 5%.

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  89. Anonymous7:44 PM

    Paul Rosenberg writes: It was, of course, the Scoop Jackson wing of the party that cheered us on in Vietnam, long past the bitter end. They have nothing to show for themselves but an abject record of failure. Which is why so many of them turned into neo-cons and Republicans: they flocked to the natural home of failure.

    And you can characterize it that way if you like, but do the names Mondale and Dukakis mean anything to you? How about Kerry? McGovernism has not been kind to the Democratic Party, and has only helped the GOP, most recently in an election that George Bush should have lost. So, you might want to reconsider what "party of failure" means. (And McGovernism [tho not the man himself] is not associated just with opposing the war in Viet Nam, but also with the base that supported McGovern, many of whom simply were anti-military and anti-American, and positively rooting for the Communist North Vietnamese. My favorite magazine was born c. 1970 in revolt against both the war and too many of the asshat anti-Americans who opposed it.)

    I do subscribe to Cato's foreign policy views, in the main. I share Eisenhower's concern about the military-industrial complex. It is impossible to have a particular kind of good that the govt must purchase, in this case defense technology, without running enormous risk of corruption. Yet a defense we do need, as well as a capable military with the best that our technology can give them to work with.

    Again, see the article I originally quoted and to which I linked; that is a cosmopolitan Manhattanite liberal telling you he does not trust your party on national defense. Living in a red county of a purple state, I can tell you this squeamishness with Dems is not unique to Mr. Andersen's demographic. Rail against me all you like, but it won't change the reality of the Achilles Heel your party has.

    ReplyDelete
  90. yankeependragon said...

    From Bart at 6:05PM: "Second, this is relevant because you were claiming that Clinton supported this all along. He did not. The Clinton plan had none of the hard reforms of the Gingrich bill. Clinton signed off on the Gingrich bill to get reelected."

    Clinton billed himself as a reformer and attempted to actually accomplish those reforms.


    This is true. Clinton studied Reagan intently in planning his presidential run and ran on a middle class tax cut and reforming welfare. He lied about both.

    As soon as he got into office, Clinton betrayed his tax cut promise and raised tax rates.

    Clinton didn't bother introducing a welfare reform bill until after he GOP swept into Congress and presented their own bill.

    "The GOP has run Congress for over a decade now without any real sign they will lose power anytime soon. It is possible that the Dems could take a one vote lead in the House if they sweep the board in 2006, but they will get creamed again in the 2008 general elections when Hillary loses by about 6 points."

    Leaving aside the contradiction the first sentence poses (especially in light of recent polling data) and your inherently conservative prediction for November...


    My prediction is that the Dems will pick up a total of a handful of seats in both chambers and fall far short of a takeover. I have yet to see any polling on the 20 or so seats which are actually competitive that indicates that many incumbent Elephant are in any trouble at all.

    The GOP has trailed in every generic congressional poll since they took over Congress. This is perhaps the worst political indicator used by the press.

    This election will bet determined on GOP base turnout. If they turn out, the GOP wins handily. If not, the Dems will pick up some seats.

    I'd like to know what you predicate your belief that the presumptive nominee will be Senator Clinton...

    Hillary has the name, the press, the money and the organization. No one else comes close.

    I could only pray that someone like Feingold could actually win. The GOP would win by a 80s level landslide. However, it will be Hillary.

    ...and that she will cause the Democrats to get 'creamed."

    Hillary starts with 45% of the electorate automatically against her. All the GOP needs is another 5% of the vote and they win.

    Hillary has a problem with the left because she knows she needs to support the war to have a chance of winning. The left will not turn out in high numbers for her or may even run another third party candidate.

    In the early heats, both McCain and Guliani destroy her by nearly double digits. That will narrow during a real election to about 6 points. Once George Allen gets more name recognition, he will join that group.

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  91. Nuf Said said...

    Bart said "No Donkey has received a majority of the national vote since Carter, and that was right after Watergate."

    That is false Bart and you should know that. Just how far removed from reality are you?

    Gore: 50,999,897 48.38%
    Bush: 50,456,002 47.87%
    2000 election

    You have no credibility whatsoever.


    Do you know what the word "majority" means? Hint: 50% plus one or greater.

    Like Clinton, algore received a plurality of the vote.

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  92. Anonymous8:15 PM

    Nuf Said said...
    Hypatia,
    Democrats do have a history of appearing weak on defense. They are continuing that tradition on many other issues.


    Spoken like a true, kool-aid swilling moron. Even a paleo-con knows the difference between defense and imperialism.

    Bart also predicted indictments for Plame and Wilson. His crystal ball is an 8-Ball.

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  93. Anonymous8:18 PM

    From Bart at 7:52PM:

    "I could only pray that someone like Feingold could actually win. The GOP would win by a 80s level landslide. However, it will be Hillary."

    "Hillary starts with 45% of the electorate automatically against her. All the GOP needs is another 5% of the vote and they win."

    In other words, you're presuming the rest of the country, or at least a sizable portion of it, shares you're frankly bizarre hatred of Senator Clinton and will automatically vote against her in comparison to the more wishy-washy and corporatist McCain, overblown and under-accomplished Rudy, and the faux-populist and sour Allen?

    I've heard of faith-based thinking, but you're definitely taking it to the next level.

    Oh, and I wouldn't be hoping Senator Feingold is the who gets the nomination if I were you. He has something most other possibilities would hope for: authenticity.(I include McCain, Allen and Rudy in that).

    But then again, look who you're supporting.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous8:22 PM

    Let’s see, we just learned that McGovern supporters were “anti-American” ….. I guess this means that Nixon supporters were “pro-American” …. Hmmm, yum, more Kool-Aid please.

    Let’s go right to the source: her fellow traveler.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Anonymous8:30 PM

    Hyfascia's rant is not convincing. It may take a few election cycles to clean out the deadwood in the Democratic party, but the fact that it is the "Republican lite" party now is not to say that it will remain that way. All of you have this very static view of political parties. They are not static, they are by nature, dynamic and always re-inventing themselves. Failed is the party that doesn't evolve over time. Whatever "third party" this person envisions is not something that will ever gain large public appeal.

    That's why she is here with her bizarre notions. Her brand of "Libertarianism" can't manage to gain any momentum or a foothold on it's own. It has to infect other parties, like it did with the GOP. We don't want that crap in the Democratic party. Look what it did to the GOP.

    “Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for the real Republican all the time.”

    Harry S Truman

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  96. Anonymous8:36 PM

    McCain is the only concern I have. Allen or Guiliani would be crushed by Hillary, and I don't even want Hillary. I would rather lose in 2008 and hobble McCain with a Dem controlled Congress, which we will have. Bart is a jack ass. A likable jack ass at times, but a jack ass none the less. He hangs around Freep too much.

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  97. Anonymous8:39 PM

    A surprising admission from conservative columnist Cal Thomas George McGovern was right.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anonymous8:40 PM

    Nuf Said said...
    Anon 8:15,
    I agreed they APPEAR weak on defense in the eyes of the electorate.
    That was the point Hypatia was making.


    That's why you got a knuckle rap with the ruler from me. Don't help to propagate false memes. Then the electorate won't be disabused of the truth, which is, plainly, that's bullshit. Democrats are no less weak on defense than Repukes. Quite the opposite. More combat vets serving in gov in the Dem party.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Anonymous8:42 PM

    Anonymous said...
    A surprising admission from conservative columnist Cal Thomas George McGovern was right.

    8:39 PM


    Not really. See this

    ReplyDelete
  100. Anonymous8:44 PM

    I mean, not really surprising that cons are now saying mcGovernism was right.

    ReplyDelete
  101. Anonymous8:48 PM

    Nuf Said said...
    To those that use the phrase 'Kool aid' when describing another please know that the people that actually drank the arsenic-laced kool aid in Jonestown did so at gun point.
    National Geographic did a great pictoral on the subject. Look it up.


    It doesn't matter. No guns at the nutbar house, with those wingnuts waiting for the mothership.

    The dangerous American fascist is the man who wants to do in the United States in an American way what Hitler did in Germany in a Prussian way. The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information. With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power."


    Vice President Henry A. Wallace

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  102. Anonymous8:54 PM

    Digby:

    "Real Conservatism Has Never Been Tried"


    That has a kind of familiar ring to it doesn't it? Get used to this new permutation of a very old trope. It's about to enter the lexicon. Predictably, like the Trotskyites about whom the fathers of the modern conservative movement obsessed, (and the fathers of the neocons were) the modern conservatives are reaching the point at which that sad rationalization is all they have to hang on to.

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  103. Anonymous9:03 PM

    Digby links to this in his piece...

    Committee on the Present Danger

    That's got your fascists for you... just look who's in that group. Lotsa names you will recognize. But read Digby's piece...


    There is a very interesting discussion taking place all over the left blogosphere about how the conservatives have discovered that the entire Republican establishment, particularly the George W. Bush administration, are liberals. Glenn Greenwald has been directly taking on Jonah Goldberg on this subject (which is something like my cat "taking on" his toy mouse), Hunter at DKos has written a lengthy and fascinating explication of the process, and Kevin Drum, in a different vein, discusses political Lysenkoism as the consequence of conservative loyalty over policy.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Anonymous9:04 PM

    From that article in that “liberal” American Conservative Magazine:

    “McGovernism” remains Beltway shorthand for a parodistic liberalism that is, at once, ineffectual, licentious, and wooly-headed. It stands for “acid, amnesty, and abortion,” as the Humphrey-Jackson Democrats put it.

    But perhaps, as George McGovern ages gracefully while his country does not, it is time to stop looking at McGovern through the lenses of Scoop Jackson and those neoconservative publicists who so often trace their disenchantment with the Democratic Party to the 1972 campaign. What if we refocus the image and see the George McGovern who doesn’t fit the cartoon?


    Sadly, what we are dealing with is a cartoon image of the Democratic Party these days – but it is only that – a cartoon.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous9:13 PM

    That Cal Thomas article on George McGovern is very good, and quite timely. I would only add that it does matter how people who oppose a war do so, and who prominently supports them. Acrimony over the Viet Nam war was horribly complicated by hordes of anti-war marchers chanting "Ho-Ho-Ho-Chi Minh," radical students promoting the glories of the Vietnamese communists as morally superior to America, and the like. Any anti-war movement that doesn't repudiate those who positively embrace the enemy, especially when it is such a high profile sector of that movement, is not going to be well-received by the average American.

    Some time ago I read Josh Marshall musing whether the liberal Democrats needed to formally repudiate, basically "purge," Michael Moore, as Marhsall's Democratic forebears did with Communists decades ago. Marshall decided it wasn't called for. I think he is wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  106. hypatia: promoting the glories of the Vietnamese communists as morally superior to America, and the like...

    You mean those folks Don Rumsfeld and others in the Bush admin would like to bring into the fold?

    ReplyDelete
  107. Anonymous9:28 PM

    George W. Bush transcends all political labels. History will judge him as the most remarkable President in all U.S. history.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Anonymous9:39 PM

    Son of a Wesleyan Methodist minister who had played second base in the St. Louis Cardinals farm system, this other George McGovern revered Charles Lindbergh as “our greatest American” and counted among his happiest memories those “joyous experiences with my dad” hunting pheasants.

    A religious, military person who likes to kill, reveres a Nazi sympathizer and plays professional sports (frat-mentality competition against others as opposed to competition against oneself to do one's best.)

    Why didn't the Dems just get Frankenstein to run? Off hand, I'd say this was that type of throw-a-way choice who runs to insure the other guy wins.

    Bush was recently asked what his single finest moment was as President and he thought for a while then said it was when he was fishing and caught this big fish.

    This is what we are dealing with in this country and both political parties nominate these people.

    I was for an extremely strong military system during the Cold War but only because I saw that as a strong defense system.

    Not international Death Squads.

    Frankly, call me uninformed, but I don't see much need for an Army or Marines or Navy Seals or any of that stuff since changes in military technology have made the need for those divisions somewhat obselete.

    A strong air-force and some nukes should about take care of it in my opinion.

    Leave us alone or we'll bomb you into oblivion and annihilate you if necessary. But if you simply refrain from initiating force against us, we won't harm a hair on your head. Your choice.

    I think this is called Deterrence. Finally, a good "D".

    Paul Rosenberg writes:

    the Dem base is opposed to the military-industrial complex. They are, in a word, Eisenhower Dems.

    In opposing foreign adventurism, and wanting a military suitable for defense, not offense, they have the support of the vast majority of the American people


    OK. C'est moi. Problem is, I don't think that is the thinking of the Democratic base.

    I they they are just slightly less militarist than the Republicans.

    It's the antiwar.com crowd actually who agrees with strong defense, deterrance, vast civil liberties, anti-authoritarianism and a cessation to all this warmongering.

    Is Paul Rosenberg saying that site reflects the views of the Democratice base?

    Then why aren't they all supporting Senator Feingold instead of Hillary Clinton still be the frontrunner?

    Kerry stinks and he's a spoiler who used big money accumulated in the same way you lefties all complain about to keep Dean from getting the nomination.

    Let's repeal the Patriot Act, restore the Constitution, protect civil liberities, downsize Government, return to a secular form of government and keep the influence peddlers, the military and all people who enjoy killing out of positions of influence.

    Anyone disagree with that platform?

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anonymous10:19 PM

    Mr. Rosenberg writes: Does this have anything to do with foreign policy and defense, per se? No. But it does go to puncturing the myth that Mondale and Dukakis lost because they were too liberal.

    Oh please. I don't know how old you are, but I'm 50, and I recall how disgusted Americans were with Jimmy Carter and his thorough ineptitude in resolving the Iranian hostage situation. In '80 Reagan won in a landslide for two reason: national security, and the sudden influx of social conservatives into the GOP, people who had been either Democrats or apolitical.

    Whenever national security is an issue, that has been a problem for Democrats since 1972. And you may not like it but the nature of the anti-war movement during the Viet Nam era has a lot to do with that. All too many were positively on the side of the North Vietnamese Communists. I went to junior high at a private school on a WI state university campus run for faculty brats, and missed quite a few days when they shut us down becasue of the violent student marches, and they did, in fact, chant in favor of the enemy; SDS was publishing crap in the student paper praising North Vietnam and Ho Chi Minh. Many, many of them were not merely anti-war; they were on the other side. (I didn't need the Swift Boat vets to remind me of any of this; I was alive, sentient and in the thick of it at the time.)

    Just where do you think this "sedition" trope Rove et al. have been exploiting comes from? At one time, it was the Republicans who were anti-war isolationists, but they were not regarded (in the main) as seditious. There is a reason that poisonous accusation has come to dog anti-war people today, and Democrats in particular, and it well-precedes Karl Rove.

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  110. Anonymous10:24 PM

    Mr. Rosenberg writes; Do you have any idea how foolish you sound? Have you even seen his movie Fahrenheit 9/11? It's so damn patriotic it's downright maudlin.

    Right. I just hope the DNC doesn't listen to you or anyone like you, because you are part of their problem.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Jonah Goldberg accepts responsibility for Republican Mismanagement.

    Conservative or not conservative, that's simply not the question! What's important is figuring out who's responsible for the current mess and dealing with the consequences. Happily Jonah Goldberg has shown himself more than ready to step up to the plate if the following is to be believed. From NPR (11/4/2004):

    JACOB WEISBERG (Editor, State): "...Republicans have a bigger problem [than the the Dems], which is the responsibility for actually governing. So four years from now it's going to be pretty impossible to say that if you don't like what's going on, it isn't the Republicans who brought it about."

    Mr. JONAH GOLDBERG (Contributing Editor, National Review): "You know, Jacob, I agree with that, but I always love that sort of retort from liberals. It says, you know, 'Oh, you guys are running everything so you have bigger challenges.' Well, political parties want that challenge. Everyone in the Republican Party wants the problems that, you know, the Republicans have, which is that they have to figure out how to run things. That's what political parties want. The Democrats have to figure out how they can ever get back to this point where they get a chance to run things. I would much prefer to be a Republican strategist right now than a Democratic one."

    NPR "Day to Day" (11/4/2004)

    ReplyDelete
  112. Anonymous10:47 PM

    No, I understand the need for you to lie that the NSA is targeting Americans and not al Qaeda. Well over 70% of Americans support listening in on al Qaeda. Thus, you have to lie or be seen by the vast majority of Americans as

    I understand this is at the very heart of everything you write Bart
    because it's the entire playbook of the military industrial complex.

    The Republican Authoritarians running the party think they have everyone over the barrel with this phony choice.

    They don't. They are not going to have anywhere to hide when the public finds out that NSA is indeed monitoring Americans.

    Lay off this "targeting" stuff. It's a red herring. It's the monitoring we're talking about. If they are "targeting" the Devil himself but they're monitoring me, they gotta go and pronto.

    If this forces whoever is in office to adopt foreign policies which make sense and stop pissing off everyone all over the world so that the entire outside world becomes one big simmering cauldren of anti-Americanism, so much the better.

    As more and more Americans see this and feel free to speak out against these programs, there will be less and less people thinking those who object to them do so because they want to "give aid and comfort to al Qaeda..."

    This could happen really quickly in the days ahead with some good investigative reporting, some backbone on the part of a few elected officials and a few media people, some good analysis from people like Glenn, and a little luck.

    And it would happen even more quickly if the damn Democrats would stop trying to assure everyone of what hawks they are and stop tripping all over themselves to be the ones to carry the most water for these Fascist programs because of a handful of terrorists.

    PS. I know there are supposed to be millions of definitions of "libertarian." Whatever the exact number, they'll have to increase it by 1 to fit you in there.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous10:59 PM

    ender said:
    Wow. What a load of total bullshit. I am not sure where to start. God almighty you are clueless about some things. First of all I think Glenn just ably established that Cons love "big government" just as you think "liberals" do.


    Probably more so. You thought I supported "cons"? Guess you never read any of my posts.

    You thought I was the single person in America most opposed to Alito because I like "cons"? And not because of abortion either.

    I got stopped in my tracts when I found out his views on the Fourth Amendment and it went downhill very fast from there.

    You don't like me because you don't like laissez-faire capitalism. You probably resent the rich also. End of story.

    We have the biggest government we have ever had in this country.

    We have the most authoritarian government we have ever had in this country.

    The defense rests.

    Some times you just have to cut to the chase and be done with it.

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous11:20 PM

    Ender has a tantrum: It comes from nationalistic, jingoistic morons. It comes from the very people that are the true threat to our way of life. It comes from warmongering cowards who have never seen a bloody battle in their god-damned life. It comes from folks that are more than happy to send people like me off to fight their wars of choice out of greed or fear or both rather than for reasons of actually wanting to protect America. You hear very many people saying we shouldn't go after Bin Laden? Of course not. Everyone wants his head on a platter - some literally, some figuratively. You think Michael Moore doesn't want Bin Laden brought to justice? You asked him?

    This spin and its accusations receive recognition because people like you want to believe it.

    Reading your bullshit makes me sick to my stomach sometimes.


    Was that fun for you?

    Now, let's get real. It may have escaped your attention, but a sizeable chunk of those ads run by the Swift Boat vets were in fact done in conjunction with a POW group. You know, men who knew not just a thing or two about bloody battle and war, but also a great deal about the Communist Vietnamese, torture, and the joys of the Hanoi Hilton. As they pointed out, anti-American commentary of war protesters was played for and read to them by their vicious captors, to demoralize them and elicit confessions to war crimes. All the stateside prattle about how all of our military were war criminals fighting against the just cause of the Communists, how wonderful Ho Chi Minh was, they were treated to that.

    Hearing all that bullshit no doubt made them as sick to their stomachs, as my pointing it out makes your stomach churn.

    It is one thing to oppose a war; it is quite another to side with the enemy. And that is what a lot of the anti-Viet Nam war protesters did. One need not be a jingoist to find that disgusting.

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  115. Anonymous11:46 PM

    Oh please. I don't know how old you are, but I'm 50, and I recall how disgusted Americans were with Jimmy Carter and his thorough ineptitude in resolving the Iranian hostage situation.

    I'm 54. How much time have you spent in the military? Training for combat is a deadly proposition. People die in the process of training everyday. Only a fool would blame Carter for the failure of that single mission, which had it proceeded, would have been an even bigger debacle. That was no Entebbe. Lessons were learned by all involved from that operation. The hostages were not being held at an abandoned air base. You remind of that idiotic ninny who kept interrupting Gen. Zinni on the Bill Maher show recently. You could tell... I wanted to slap her for him, and tell her to STFU.

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  116. Anonymous11:55 PM

    Operation Eagle Claw

    Critics have argued that the mission had been bound to fail anyway, due to being overly complex and the fact that the hostages to be rescued had been scattered in various 'safe houses', which the provided forces would not have been able to find and secure in time. It is also plausible that the large number of military units involved compromised the secrecy of the mission.

    The failure of the various services to work together with cohesion forced the establishment of a new multi-service organization. The concept of USSOCOM was born and finally established, and was placed into operation in the 1988-1989 time period. Each service subsequently now has its own Special Operations Forces under the overall control of USSOCOM. For example, the Army has its own Army Special Operations Command (ASOC) that controls the Army Special Operations Forces (ARSOF).


    At least he didn't invade Iran. He did fine. I have never been ashamed of Carter as a president.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Nuf Said said...

    From Webster's:

    Majority \Ma*jor"i*ty\, n.; pl. Majorities. [F. majorit['e]. See Major.]

    2. The greater number;

    Plurality \Plu*ral"i*ty\, n.; pl. pluralities. [L. pluralitas: cf. F. pluralit['e].]

    2. The greater number; a majority;

    You are still 0'fer in the credibility department.


    How long did it take for you to find a dictionary sub definition which was semantically similar to try to tap dance out of admitting that you were wrong.

    Majority
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A majority is a subset of a group that is more than half of the entire group. This should not be confused with a plurality, which is a subset having the largest number of parts. A plurality is not necessarily a majority, as the largest subset may be less than half of the entire group.

    For example, in a hypothetical group of 40 athletes there are:
    15 association football players
    10 sprinters
    9 marathon runners
    6 table tennis players

    In this group, a majority would consist of more than half the total number of athletes, or 21 athletes. The group of all ball sport players together (15 football players + 6 table tennis players = 21) comprise a majority. However, football players, 15 in number, comprise a plurality, not a majority.

    For example, Bush gained 51% of the vote in 2004, which is a majority of the entire vote.

    Plurality
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A plurality (or "relative majority") is the largest share of something, which may or may not be a majority. For example, if an election had three candidates, who received 40%, 25%, and 35% of the vote, the candidate with 40% would have a plurality, but not a majority.

    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plurality

    For example, Clinton gained 49% of the vote in 1996 and algore gained 48% of the vote in 2000. These are pluralities.

    Got it spanky?

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  118. Anonymous12:03 AM

    I'm 54. How much time have you spent in the military? Training for combat is a deadly proposition. People die in the process of training everyday. Only a fool would blame Carter for the failure of that single mission, which had it proceeded, would have been an even bigger debacle. That was no Entebbe. Lessons were learned by all involved from that operation.

    That is one of the most funny things I have read in, like, forever. Carter was wholly unable by any means, diplomatic or military, to get our people back, and you think it constitutes some sort of defense of that ineptitude to cite his failed mission, which would you say have been an even bigger debacle had it gone totally forward. Well now, there's a leader to get behind. That certainly salvages Democrats on the national security issue. (eyes rolling)

    Oh, but "lessons were learned." Really, I hope George Bush is reading; Iraq may be a mess, but it can be defended because of all that we will have learned.

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  119. Anonymous12:09 AM

    He did fine. I have never been ashamed of Carter as a president.

    You are so, so right. In '08, whoever the Democrats run, they should deal with their national security issue by describing the candidate to the American people as "just like Carter, who did fine."

    Jesus, there is no hope if the Democrats at this site have significant input.

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  120. Eyes Wide Open said...

    Bart: No, I understand the need for you to lie that the NSA is targeting Americans and not al Qaeda. Well over 70% of Americans support listening in on al Qaeda. Thus, you have to lie or be seen by the vast majority of Americans as providing aid and comfort to the enemy.

    I understand this is at the very heart of everything you write Bart because it's the entire playbook of the military industrial complex. The Republican Authoritarians running the party think they have everyone over the barrel with this phony choice.

    You just don't like the choice the voters will make if you are honest.

    They are not going to have anywhere to hide when the public finds out that NSA is indeed monitoring Americans.

    The voters also might not like it when they find out that all Democrats bugger small boys and then eat the peanuts out of their stools. Two can play at the big lie game.

    Lay off this "targeting" stuff. It's a red herring. It's the monitoring we're talking about. If they are "targeting" the Devil himself but they're monitoring me, they gotta go and pronto.

    The NSA is listening in on international calls to telephone numbers captured from al Qaeda. When they listen to these numbers, they are targeting al Qaeda. However, if you call one of these numbers, the NSA was not necessarily targeting you unless you are al Qaeda. Given that your views of the United States dove tail pretty well with al Qaeda's, this is possible.

    If this forces whoever is in office to adopt foreign policies which make sense and stop pissing off everyone all over the world so that the entire outside world becomes one big simmering cauldren of anti-Americanism, so much the better.

    Did we upset Saddam Hussein and his bribed French, German and Russian allies. Well boo farking hoo...

    As more and more Americans see this and feel free to speak out against these programs, there will be less and less people thinking those who object to them do so because they want to "give aid and comfort to al Qaeda..."

    Let me see if I get this right. Repeating al Qaeda propaganda with the purpose of causing the United States to lose a war will somehow become less aid and comfort to the enemy if more traitors participate? bin Laden must laugh his arse off listening to you guys.

    PS. I know there are supposed to be millions of definitions of "libertarian." Whatever the exact number, they'll have to increase it by 1 to fit you in there.

    As I have explained multiple times in the past, I believe in freedom and rights for US citizens. In this, I am a libertarian.

    Conversely, I believe in death and destruction for the enemy. In this, I am not a libertarian. You give nothing to the enemy. War is not supposed to be fair. At its most successful, it is utterly unfair and merciless mass murder of the enemy so that the enemy does not kill our troops or harm our civilians.

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  121. Anonymous12:12 AM

    Hyfascia,

    I'm not even going to respond to your nonsense. Bart, at least, spent some time in the desert, and knows what's what, even if he was just there for the "Big Cake Walk in the Sun" and he can't admit he's wrong because "conservatism" is failed by imperfect practioners of a perfect ideology. It is never a failure. I'll choose to spend the rest of my time debating Bart. At least he got some trigger time.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Anonymous12:19 AM

    You are damn lucky I can't get near enough to slap you. I'd strangle you, too.

    I believe you. You are a fine example of everything that has gone wrong with this comments section. Last week I was informed that I am essentially sub-human, not entitled to be respected even as a human being. And you want to kill me.

    Well, there are some pro-Bush fanatics over at Protein Wisdom who have adivsed me to please "fuck off and die." Maybe you can make a marriage of convenience with them to effect my demise.

    But in the meantime, don't stop trashing former POWs who went through hell in the Hanoi Hilton -- like Paul Galanti who spent 7 years there and who ran McCain's '00 campaign, and who did a Swift Vets ad. Clearly he's lying, and probably was never actually even in Viet Nam. That's exactly how Democrats will win elections.

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  123. Anonymous12:21 AM

    Anyone interested can read an account of the Iranian hostage affair that is far more accurate than any account of anything that dribbles from Hyfascia's fetid, kool-aid stained drool orifice.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Anonymous12:25 AM

    I guess this also means you concede that Democrats are rough enough and violent enough to protect you. Now shut up and go sit in the corner.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Hypatia: I have several words for you to consider. First, read books on El Salvador--consider Jona Didion's at the top of the list. Then take a look at John Sales' film, Men with Guns. Then sit down in a dark room alone and watch Romero. Then talk to me about Herr Uber-President Reagan.

    Have you even heard of how those Iranian hostages finally got released? It's called guns for hostages. That's how Reagan dealt with that. Then the money gained from that went into supporting death squads. Squads trained, supported, and run by Reagan's CIA.

    Remember how Reagan forgot so much about his role in the Iran-Contra scandal that he became a laughing stock? Remember Ollie North falling on his sword for the big man?

    Finally, remember Adm. Poindexter, whose protoype boondoggle for spying on domestic dissenters to Reagan's policies was outlawed but was actually renamed and now forms the basis for the present-day NSA program run by Hayden et al?

    Of yeah, the Republicans know how to do national security. It's in the handbooks of the School for the Americas and involves killing innocent men and women through surrogates.

    That's a real man/woman's national security platform for ya.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Anonymous12:36 AM

    Wiki, (as soon as you know to check past histories and discussion tabs) is far more current and in depth than Webster's but neither is perfect. Wiki is an ongoing battle to keep propagandists and revisionists and outright bullshitters (vandals) like Hyfascia, Bart, whoever from defacing the historical record with ideologically driven drivel.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Anonymous12:39 AM

    We have that defense. It's called the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans.

    Ditto.

    ReplyDelete
  128. Anonymous12:39 AM

    Hyfascia... blah blah blah

    Me with fingers in ears:

    lalalalalalalala


    Are we done?

    We are.

    ReplyDelete
  129. I think one of the more useful ways of defining the conservative viewpoint is to look at their utopian vision. In the perfect conservative world, labour would be cheap, business would be unregulated, and taxes would be low. There would be almost no mobility from the have-not class to the have-more class.
    In other words, it would be a reversion to a feudal state, with Lords and Ladies of 'The right kind of people' secure in their inherited wealth. The thing Republicans most want to repeal is the notion that all men are created equal. So, in effect they are attacking not only the Constitution, but the Declaration of Independence as well.
    Anyone who doubts how far they have already come in this regard need only consider one thing; Paris Hilton.

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  130. Anonymous12:43 AM

    POW groups are all scam artists. There are no living POWs or MIAs in Nam, or anywhere else, thank goodness. At least not yet. You would expect these kind of grifters to be involved with the swift boat pigs.

    Col. Joe Schlatter's site, which I linked to above is a welth of info on this subject, and much much more.

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  131. Anonymous12:46 AM

    Cynic librarian makes a serious error: Have you even heard of how those Iranian hostages finally got released? It's called guns for hostages. That's how Reagan dealt with that.

    Um, no. Those hostages were released something like 20 minutes after Ronald Reagan was first sworn into office on January 20, 1981, right after his inaugural address. I'll never forget it.

    The Iran-Contra scandal was about hoping that selling arms to Iran would cause that nation to influence the Hezbollah kidnappers in Lebanon to release their hostages.

    I've already gone on record here, months ago, condemning the violation of the Boland Amendment. I do not remotely defend the Iran-Contra scandal. But the fact remains, we were humiliated as a nation for some 444 days while Carter could not make Iran give our people back. Americans want to feel safe, and Carter did not do that for them. Reagan, whatever his sins, did.

    Unless and until Democrats figure out what is going on in this dynamic, they are going to have a national security albatross around their collective neck.

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  132. Anonymous12:49 AM

    If I were a child, like bart and the other bush supporters are, I too would probably want someone like bush who appears strong and powerfull. Someone who says things that make me feel safe like, "Wanted: dead or alive", and "Your with us or against us". Unfortunately as an adult I see the talk that soothes bart for what it is. Window dressing on a failled and backward defense policy. All the things the "thinking types" warned about have come true. Terrorist attacks on the rise, Democracy at the end of a gun barrel in Iraq: not working. Iraq war recruting tool for terrorists. Time for the adults to take over. The kids are too scared to see that their John Wane is just an actor. A dangerous one at that. But what can you expect from people who think that the terrorists didn't think we were listening until the NYT ran a story.

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  133. Anonymous12:53 AM

    Paul Galanti retired from the United States Navy as a Commander. He and his wife Phyllis reside in Virginia. They are active in the ex-pow organization NAM-POWs, Inc.

    Richmond Times-Dispatch
    Sunday, February 15, 1998


    Scumbag huckster and grifter. I'll bet he was tight with Billy Hendon and Bob Smith. Scumbags.

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  134. Hypatia: You are right. I conflated the two events.

    OTOH Feeling safe means nothing if it takes immoral and unethical acts to gain that sense of security, no? How many innocents will you condone killing so that you can feel safe in your home?

    Of course, there's the further concern that the security you buy today through immoral and unethical acts will one day come home to roost for your children and grandchildren.

    This is something Wesley Clarke pointed out the other day on Bill Maher. No matter how many people you kill you will eventually have to deal with those people's relatives in some form.

    This type of revenge-cycle has been proposed by some to be the reason for some engaging in the Iraqi insurgency. It originated in the dreadful means used to level and pacify Falluja.

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  135. Anonymous12:57 AM

    Paul Rosenberg. Yes, you definitely are an enigma.

    Why do you write posts like your one at 11:18 mocking Hypatia?

    Every time you write one of those you negate the good of your other posts.

    That is so beneath you. I hope.

    Hypatia treats everyone here including you with respect.

    You could learn a lot from her.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous1:00 AM

    The difference, of course, is that when we come after your scumbag hucksters and grifters, like Galanti this time, we will be armed with the truth about him and filth like Sampley. That they made a living off the false hopes of people who lost loved ones over there, who never returned, by keeping alive the false rumors that they were still alive. We won't be wearing pretty purple bandaids.

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  137. Anonymous1:02 AM

    Hypatia treats everyone here including you with respect.

    Except Democrats.

    GFY

    ReplyDelete
  138. Anonymous1:05 AM

    Truthfully, the passive-aggressive "we are the victims" bullshit from the both of you is giving me agita.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Anonymous1:17 AM

    And you talk about respect? Fuck you both with dead dog dicks. That's no respect, but at least it's honest.


    Debunking SBVT (with links to all revelant documents)

    Debunking SBVT(Swift Boat Veterans for Truth)

    John Kerry’s official naval records
    Unit's report supports Kerrey's version
    eriposte, a comprehensive rebuttal of the SBVT
    Chicago Tribune: Swift boat skipper: Kerry critics wrong. William Rood's eyewitness account
    NY Times: Friendly Fire: Birth of an Anti-Kerry Ad
    WaPo: Records counter a critic of Kerry
    WaPo: Swift Boat Accounts Incomplete. Critics fail to disprove Kerry’s Version of Vietnam War Episode. Contains Langhofer’s eyewitness account.
    Wapo: Some veterans still bitter at talk of crimes.Most of them are in it because they feel bitter about Kerry’s anti-war activism not because they doubt his war record.
    The Nation: New evidence undermines Swift Vets attack on Kerry
    Patrick Runyon’s eyewitness account
    Slate.com: Holiday in Cambodia. The “Christmas Eve attack on Kerry is cheap and almost certainly wrong.
    Nixon targeted Kerry for anti-war views. White House tapes reveal then-president’s attempt to discredit Kerry during 1971 war protests, Senate testimony. Nixon recruited John O’Neill.
    WaPo: Kerry team lines up Vietnam witnesses. Three more Swift Boat officers, Rich McCann, Jim Russell and Rich Baker, come forward to defend Kerry. Former POW Phil Butler, who lived with two other POWs in the SBVT group, says Kerry’s anti-war efforts did not cause prisoners to be treated badly.
    Robert Lambert backs Kerry. Lambert was the third vet awarded the bronze star along with Kerry and Thurlow in the incident disputed by SBVT.
    Columbia Journalism Review gives the smackdown to media coverage of SBVT
    Truth and Unfit for Command: A Review is a detailed and careful debunking of the book. Includes Navy documents not available elsewhere.

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  140. Anonymous1:18 AM

    Oh. My. God. We've hit bottom. People are now starting to use
    Wikipedia as a credible source?

    An effort where Charlie Manson can write in from prison and tweak the definition of justice?

    What next? The Amazon review as the definitive work on Crimes and Punishment?

    Yikes.

    PS. Census taking is fascist. I think all citizens should be able to make a citizen's arrest if a census taker will not leave the property upon request.

    How do you think we got this Patriot Act? It's like the British Royal families taking a little poison at a time until the system gets used to it.

    If more people spent more time even thinking about the beginnings, let alone resisting them, we would not be staring in the face of these Orwellian ends.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Anonymous1:21 AM

    Ender, get a clue. I am not arguing against war protesters per se, and certainly as a First Am absolutist would never try to silence them. What I am arguing is that a large and very vocal and visible contingent of the anti-war movement was pro-enemy. Not just anti-war. To take just one of 10 million available sources, and opting for a left-wing one, the Socialist History Project (my emphasis):
    There were many issues and debates that confronted the diverse forces protesting the war, but they consistently reflected disagreements between three political viewpoints: reformism, ultraleftism, and revolutionary socialism.

    The reformists, most notably the Communist Parties, sought to pressure the warmakers to pull back and accept a compromise settlement with the liberation movement. In the U.S. they focused their efforts on influencing the Democratic Party. They promoted "peace", not antiwar, candidates in elections. They consistently argued for "moderation" so as not to alienate the powers that be, and argued for slogans like "Negotiate with the NLF", thus implicitly accepting that the imperialists had a right hold the Vietnamese people hostage to a negotiation process.

    In Canada, the Communist Party promoted the illusory vision of an "independent foreign policy" for Canada, rather than focusing their fire on the very real complicity of the Canadian government in the war. It supported proposals to send Canadian soldiers to Vietnam as "peacekeepers."

    There were various ultraleft currents within the movement, ranging from those who promoted violent confrontations with police to those whose would try to center antiwar protests around such slogans as "Victory to the NLF" and such chants as "Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh, the NLF is going to win."

    ...In the end, the Vietnamese people won. The world’s greatest imperialist power was defeated by the combination of heroic resistance in Vietnam, and an international movement that changed the political framework of the day, and American soldiers who refused to be cannon fodder. The workers at home actively opposed the war, and the workers in uniform were refusing to fight.

    The Marxist left in the U.S. and Canada can be very proud of the role it played in that victory.

    Vietnam, by 1975, was united and independent. The Vietnamese capitalists and landlords were driven from power. Their victory was a key factor in encouraging colonial revolts from Iran to Nicaragua. And it led to the Vietnam syndrome: for a quarter century the U.S. rulers were unable to launch a major military assault anywhere in the world.

    Today, when imperialism is again trying to crush a third world country, the antiwar movement begins with a much more favorable relationship of forces, and with an arsenal of lessons on how such a fight can be won.


    I suggest to you, Ender, that Americans do not want to be either warmongers, or to be afflicted with the "Vietnam syndrome" that lefty sources such as above think is oh-so-wonderful. These are the strains of anti-war sentiment that are hobbling Democrats and have been since 1972. They are why Karl Rove can exploit the electorate's nervousness that Democrats are bad on national security, and why Ann Coulter's treason rants resonate with the right -- Republicans were anti-war in the WWII era, but nobody tars them as seditionists. The reason for that is the history of the Viet Nam war protests; deal with it.

    ReplyDelete
  142. Anonymous1:22 AM

    And you have to keep beating these clowns about the head with it, because the truth can never reach them unless you pound it in with a bat.

    Kerry told the truth about US war crimes, and if that's treason, all of here will hang with him, proudly. Step on up and give it your best shot, you cowardly little twirps.

    Tiger Force

    Pack a lunch. Nevermind the dinner, you'll be swinging from your own ropes by supper time.

    ReplyDelete
  143. Anonymous1:27 AM

    You will never convince that twit of anything. I'd like to know who the enemy was? The last time I checked, some Vietnamese were our allies. As usual, idiots like Hyfascia were allied with the wrong side.

    ReplyDelete
  144. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  145. Anonymous1:34 AM

    Given that your views of the United States dove tail pretty well with al Qaeda's, this is possible.

    Hold on a minute. You mean Al Queda is secular, live and let live, for free speech and the right to practice one's religion, pro laissez-faire capitalism, pro- individualism, anti-authoritarianism, anti-violence and pro Constitutional Republics with Constitutions like ours, loves animals, basically pacifist but thinks America should have strong defense?

    Well why the hell didn't the government just tell everyone the real truth about Al Queda?

    They sound like our Framers.

    Sounds like they've been seriously misrepresented by the Government you revere so much.

    I think you owe them an apology.

    ReplyDelete
  146. Anonymous1:38 AM

    Eyes Wide Open said...
    Oh. My. God. We've hit bottom. People are now starting to use
    Wikipedia as a credible source?


    Heh. Charlie has more in common with you and Ayn Rand than you realize, and for a functional illiterate, he's a whole lot sharper than both of you, or Rand.

    ReplyDelete
  147. Anonymous1:40 AM

    Paul Rosenberg gets it wrong yet again: This is a total non-sequiter. The SBVT ads attacked Kerry's service record, misrepresenting themselves as people who served right alongside him. POWs obviously didn't serve with him. The ads were intended to slander Kerry under false pretenses--to tar his battlefield record as a backdoor way to attack him for his political activism. The men who did this were cowards and sneaks, afraid to confront him directly on the merits.

    The fact that some were POWs 30+ years ago does not excuse their dishonorable behavior in 2004.


    You are clearly ill-informed. First, some of them did serve with Kerry in the fleets of small boats of 5-6 men that traveled in packs. One of them was on Kerry's small boat. Second, the POW ads did not address Kerry's service. They dealt with his comments when he returned to the United States, and how they felt about that performance when the allegations of war crimes and other crap were communicated to them by their captors, who had tortured them to extract confessions of war crimes.

    But y'all just keep it up. This deafness to what was so offensive to many in the military about Kerry's performance in his anti-war agitation, and their profound disgust with the falsehoods in his hagiographic campaign biography, resonated with a lot of voters. Your hatred and fury about them is so aroused because they touched a very raw nerve; they hit the soft underbelly of why some Democrats are perceived as bad on national security, and they did this as no other manifestation of opposition could. I would be amused at the hysterical hatred of these men, if it did not demonstrate why Democrats are so politically stupid, and I don't want them to be stupid.

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous1:43 AM

    Eyes Wide Open @ 1:34 AM

    You don't do snark well at all. What wingnut does? Knock it off or you will owe us all an apology.

    ReplyDelete
  149. Anonymous1:46 AM

    Hypatia brings up the fact that the Iranian hostages were released the same day as Reagan's inaugural..."like 20 minutes after he was sworn in," she points out.

    Wasn't that odd? Did it strike you as feasible that the Iranians were so "fearful" of Reagan that they would release the hostages so promptly upon his taking office like that? (This "fearful" jazz was the story sold by Reagan supporters then and later to 'splain it.)

    Which, of course, brings us back to an earlier "October surprise." The allegations, as you recall, were that George H.W. Bush, then the candidate for VP on the Reagan-Bush ticket, attended a conference in Paris to negotiate a delayed release of the hostages. Well, let me quote from Wikipedia:

    "Due to the release of the hostages at the precise moment of Reagan's inauguration on January 20, 1981, rumors surfaced that the Reagan campaign made a secret hostage deal with the Iranian government whereby the Iranians would hold the hostages until Reagan was inaugurated, ensuring that Jimmy Carter would lose the 1980 presidential election.

    It is alleged that then-vice presidential candidate George H.W. Bush secretly visited Paris on October 19, 1980, along with several senior U.S. senators (John Tower, John Heinz) and William Casey (then Reagan's campaign chairman and later his CIA director) to meet with representatives of Iran's religious regime to exchange security assurances and arms in exchange for holding the hostages through to the end of the 1980 election campaign. Reports confirming that such a meeting did in fact take place have surfaced from former French, Russian, and Israeli intelligence agents."


    There has never been a conclusive finding that Reagan-Bush did, in fact, engineer the delayed release of the hostages until the moment of Reagan's swearing in, in exchange for promises of arms, etc. but, given the later--proven--illegal sale of arms to Iran by the Reagan people to fund their secret and illegal backing of the murderous Contras, I'm inclined to believe it.

    Carter had his failings, but he never consorted with an enemy state to HOLD hostages for later release, in exchange for a secret arms deal. He never committed treason.

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  150. Anonymous1:47 AM

    We continually drove people who wished to throw the yoke of imperialism off into the willing arms of the communists. Cuba, Nam... Now we drive them to al-Qaeda.

    Myopia? It's worse than that. Paranoid delusions describe it better.

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  151. Anonymous1:51 AM

    Paul Rosenberg gets it wrong one more time: And now we know why: as a junior high school student she resented college students for being intemperate in how they opposed a genocidal war. For which she blames eveyone under the sun--George McGovern, John Kerry, the entire Democratic Party.

    No, I thought chanting "Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh, dare, dare, dare to win" was awful. Siding with the Communist enemy who was holding our troops in rancid prisons, is disgusting, and that sentiment was thoroughly interwoven in the anti-war movement.

    However, I specifically do not blame George McGovern, or the entire Democratic Party. (That Cal Thomas article, as I said, is very good.) What you refuse to hear, however, is that your anti-war movement is legitimately regarded as being corrupted with anti-American Marxists who sided with the enemy. Fact. Of. History.

    It matters how one opposes a war. How that happened vis-a-vis Viet Nam is why the Democrats have had a problem since 1972.

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  152. Anonymous1:55 AM

    The Swift Boat Vets were bogus; none of the men who asserted that Kerry lied about his actions actually served ON HIS BOAT, and the one guy they enlisted to join them who WAS on Kerry's boat was not present on the boat during the events in question. Most of the Swift Boaters were probably sincere in their beliefs, but were simply acting on what they had been told by the core group of those who really hated Kerry and were willing to slander him, particularly their odious "leader," John O'Neill, who had been humiliated years before by John Kerry on a Dick Cavett Show debate.

    Other Swiftboaters, and probably the ones who really hated Kerry, were acting out of long-standing anger over his post-war anti-war activities.

    They were simply and clearly a partisan group who slandered Kerry with falsehoods.

    I say this as one who thought Kerry was a poor candidate, although I did vote for him reluctantly.

    ReplyDelete
  153. Anonymous1:57 AM

    The October Surprise Conspiracy was an alleged plot that claimed representatives of the 1980 Ronald Reagan presidential campaign had conspired with Islamic Republic of Iran to delay the release of 66 Americans held hostage in Tehran until after the 1980 U.S. Presidential election. In exchange for their cooperation, the United States would supply weapons to Iran as well as unfreeze Iran's monetary assets being held by the US government.

    They would never do that. Would they?

    From FAS...

    ReplyDelete
  154. More on "sense of security." Isn't this why there are gated communities and oases where the well-off can cavort while the poor and truly insecure are terrorized every day by criminals?

    I know people who feel insecure just by driving through the university section of town. All those loonies and crazy adolescents hang out there, doncha know?

    What sense of security do we owe the rest of the world in our search for security? I imagine there are many in Iraq now who even might feel that the days of Saddam were better than what they have now. At least he kept the electricity on, rape was unknown, prostitution of young girls was unknown, and people could go to their jobs with fear of being kidnapped.

    But, as Mr. Rumsfeld says, "Isn't democracy grand?" In other words, "Democracy means having to deal with militia death squads, kidnappings, rape and the rising tide of fundamentalist fanaticism."

    All so that Hypatia feels "secure."

    ReplyDelete
  155. Anonymous2:08 AM

    A 1992 article from CJR on the October Surprise Conspiracy

    Even if it were true. It's not as bad as outing a NOC working on nuke prolif in Iran to get into a war on false pretenses and guarantee a re-election. Is it?

    ReplyDelete
  156. Anonymous2:28 AM

    And if you go there, the October Surprise Conspiracy, you end up here: Inslaw

    Or this: Federal Corruption
    INSLAW
    because there definite are connections that journalists like Danny Casolaro ended up dead for snooping into.

    All that blather about how nasty and insulting the "Angry Left" is is clearly wingnut propaganda.

    Make up your fucking mind. Are we pacifistic hippies and flower children or an angry, violent mob?

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  157. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  158. Anonymous2:33 AM

    Re: Inslaw, not only does it involve the Iran hostage affair...

    In 2001, the Washington Times and Fox News each quoted federal law enforcement and/or intelligence officials familiar with the debriefing of former FBI Agent Robert Hanssen as claiming that Hanssen had stolen for the Soviet KGB copies of PROMIS-derivative software used within the FBI and U.S. intelligence agencies to track the intelligence information they produce, and used by U.S. intelligence within banks to track financial transactions. These reports further stated that Osama bin Laden later bought copies of the same PROMIS-derivative software on the Russian black market for $2 million and al Qaeda used the software to penetrate U.S. intelligence database systems so that it could move its funds through the banking system and evade detection and monitoring by U.S. law enforcement and intelligence agencies.

    The U.S. Government has never paid INSLAW for any of these unauthorized uses of PROMIS.

    ReplyDelete
  159. Anonymous2:39 AM

    Hanssen

    According to the New York Observer, August 6, 2001:

    On July 29, the Los Angeles Times published a lengthy investigation of his role as a top F.B.I. overseer of domestic counterintelligence operations. From documents obtained through the Freedom of Information Act...the Times discovered that Mr. Hanssen spent several years directing the bureau's notorious Reagan-era probes of American liberal and peace organizations. Such groups were deemed inimical to the objectives of the conservatives then in power, who tended to regard dissent over the nuclear-arms race and war in Central America as Soviet-influenced and subversive....As later Congressional investigations would show, what this often meant in practice was the harassment and sometimes the smearing of Americans engaged in lawful political activity. Among the many groups under surveillance by the F.B.I. in those days were the Gray Panthers, nuclear-freeze advocates associated with SANE-and the left-leaning Catholic adversaries of Opus Dei who opposed the American-backed repression in Central America.

    Robert Novak. The conservative columnist admitted on July 12 that Mr. Hanssen had served as his main source for a 1997 column attacking Janet Reno, then the U.S. Attorney General, for supposedly covering up 1996 campaign-finance scandals.

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous2:42 AM

    Compared to all the shit that really is going on, right out in broad daylight and under our own noses, it makes the Da Vinci Code look like... pulp fiction.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Right. I just hope the DNC doesn't listen to you or anyone like you, because you are part of their problem.

    How did we get to the point where we are obligated to condemn and purge moonbats like Michael Moore and even Howard Dean for their lunacy, while the right openly embraces the likes of Coulter, Limbaugh, O'Reilly and Hannity who spew full frontal fascism that couldn't be any more obvious and anti-American without a swastica hanging in the background? How did we get to the point where suggesting something might not be altogether perfect in America or with the Republican party hurts Democrats, while the extremism of the right, up to and including advocating the mass murder of Americans, helps Republicans?

    It matters how one opposes a war. How that happened vis-a-vis Viet Nam is why the Democrats have had a problem since 1972.

    It's interesting that opposing a war requires complete ideological and patriotic purity, while absolutely anything goes in supporting it. War opponents must not fail to demonize and dehumanize the enemy to the satisfaction of the war supporters. Meanwhile, even 'kill the gooks/ragheads' is perfectly acceptable and patriotic.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous2:52 AM

    Cynic writes:
    Have you even heard of how those Iranian hostages finally got released? It's called guns for hostages.


    Yes. This was great. An American President is supposed to protect his citizens. That's what America is all about. The fact that we cared about the lives of each and every one of our fellow Americans is what used to distinguish us from the rest of the world.

    The arms market is essentially fungible like the oil market. If we didn't give them arms someone else would have.

    I'd rather it be us and get back our citizens. There is only one thing I fault Reagan on. If I were President I would have first issued a public notice stating "If anyone doesn't think I should do everything in my power to get back our citizens including trading arms for hostages, please let that person have two of his own family members come to the White House. I'll offer to exchanged twice the number of hostages culled from those volunteers for sending back the ones who are already there."

    If I didn't get any offers I'd get the arms to Iran pronto and get back our hostages. Love these people who are willing to sacrifice the lives of others to protect their lofty, misguided ideas about warfare.

    Then the money gained from that went into supporting death squads. Squads trained, supported, and run by Reagan's CIA.

    This was bad. It was the neo-cons and the CIA who were responsible. Seems like we all now agree it was bad so let's agree to get rid of the neo-cons and the CIA.

    Remember how Reagan forgot so much about his role in the Iran-Contra scandal that he became a laughing stock?

    No, I believed him completely. Maybe you were laughing but that makes you not a good judge of character.

    Remember Ollie North falling on his sword for the big man?

    No, in fact he's the guy I was laughing at. Ollie North, imo, is a puffed up fraud, a liar, and generally reprehensible and I doubt he would ever fall on his sword even for his own mother.

    Ender, you said Hypatia and I were full of "total bullshit." Please link to a post where Hypatia spoke to you in words like that.

    You think you are making an intelligent point when you say since I disagree with Hypatia on certain issues, I cannot agree with her on others without being accused of flip-flopping?

    Gee. I guess you are a believer in the total "party line" concept. I look at each issue individually.

    BTW, I like your improvement on my "platform". I'm glad we can agree on that.

    What I most like about Hypatia is that she writes extraordinarily well, intelligently puts forth her positions, has an incredible amount of knowledge, and raises the level of discourse on this blog.

    BTW, I usually find myself in general agreement with the posts by phd9. Does that poster identify any "label" with his views about politics?

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  163. Anonymous2:52 AM

    Hyfascia should hang out at my "friend" Misha's Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler blog. Then read Reverend Mykeru's account of his attempt to get one of those rabid (rabbit), gun-sniffing chihuahua's to "bring it".

    I give you, Lord Spatula. It's not that we are so "angry and violent" on the left. We just don't bark as loud as you on the right and none of you has gotten close enough to be bitten yet. In spite of the invitation.

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  164. Anonymous2:56 AM

    What I most like about Hypatia is that she writes extraordinarily well, intelligently puts forth her positions, has an incredible amount of knowledge, and raises the level of discourse on this blog.

    I'm sure the hi-level discussions of the "final solution" were just like that. In fact, we now know they were.

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  165. Anonymous2:59 AM

    Paul Rosenberg: The experience of McCarthyism, which destroyed thousands of people's lives.

    We already took care of that when you weren't here yet. Nobody's lives were ruined. Relax. Don't believe everything you read in Wilkepedia.

    Younger activists in the 60s looked back on this history, and were revolted by the way in which leftists and liberals caved under pressure in the 50s.

    That's funny. They were revolted that we didn't convert outright to socialism in this country. Boo hoo.

    PS. We're almost there now so they should dry their tears.

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  166. Anonymous3:05 AM

    Paul Rosenberg writes: There was one over-riding reason why such sentiments were widely tolerated: McCarthyism. The experience of McCarthyism, which destroyed thousands of people's lives. Younger activists in the 60s looked back on this history, and were revolted by the way in which leftists and liberals caved under pressure in the 50s. For this reason, above all, the anti-war movement did not generally impose ideological discipline. But tolerance of diverse views and tactics did not necessarily mean approval.

    That is so outrageous on so many levels. Ideological fucking discipline is what it would take to repudiate people expressing ACTUAL anti-American views and support of the enemy? McCarthyism, for one thing, did not destroy thousands of peoples lives (that it did is one of those truthiness notions), Communists did (millions of lives, actually). Second, if leftists and liberals cannot see fit to reject and expel people who openly root for the enemy, then they deserve all the opprobrium Karl Rove or anyone else casts them. I spit on such tolerance.

    God, you write things that are like fodder for the next Ann Coulter screed.

    McGovernism, btw, is simply how the problems with the Dems in the national security context is discussed -- including by the liberal in the article I linked to in my initial comment. The issue is larger than McGovern the man (whom I clearly said was not pro-enemy), and encompasses the movement that was behind him.

    But if you do not see how vile it was to tolerate a huge contingent of people who were openly agitating for this nation's defeat and the victory of the enemy, I cannot explain to you why your party has a national security issue. The reason it does is, for you, a matter of "tolerance" of which you are proud.

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  167. hypatia: I do not think you are any of those things, nor do I wish you bodily harm. However, since you appear to be so intent on the morality of others, I would like you to consider what your views imply.

    It seems some of those who are saying these things about you served in VietNam. Since you were not there, I suggest you take their views as an indication of some of the things they either witnessed or perhaps engaged in.

    It is never too late to understand the moral horror that men in war live with for years, if not all their lives. I suggest that the profound disgust they feel for some things you say are a result of the disconnect they feel might be emanating from your view--isolated as it is from the reality of war--and the brutality of a war many still live with 30-40 years later.

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  168. Anonymous4:24 AM

    Some lawmakers, like Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California, suggested that he might think about resigning his military post if he were going to head the CIA. But Hoekstra and Chambliss were among those who said that wouldn't solve the problem.

    Hypocritical, neo-con, warmongering, imperalitist, money pocketing, special interest catering phonies like Feinstein are going to drive all undecided voters away from the Democratic Party, not attrack any new voters.

    Plus, she's losing her marbles. If she didn't have staffers, she wouldn't have a word to say.

    Republicans better take advantage of the situation and come up with some decent policies and candidates.

    I agree with the poster who said he thought that would happen. The Democrats revealed their true colors when they supported all these policies the public is getting to hate.

    And you know what? If they take over the House, there are not going to be any investigations. They haven't exactly supported Sen. Feingold and John Conyers. All talk, no action. We'll get the Democratic version of Specter investigations.

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  169. Anonymous4:48 AM

    Now for some good news.

    1. NewsMax Poll: Strong U.S. Support for Bombing Iran

    An Internet poll sponsored by NewsMax.com reveals that Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of the United States undertaking military action to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program.

    Nearly 60,000 people have taken part in the poll so far, and more than nine out of 10 say U.S. efforts to contain Iran's weapons program are not working.

    A large majority of respondents also believe that Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War.

    NewsMax will provide the results of this poll to major media and share them with radio talk-show hosts across the country.

    Here are the poll questions and results:

    1) Do you believe U.S. efforts to contain Iran's nuclear weapons program are working?
    Working: 7 percent
    Not Working: 93 percent

    2) Should the United States rely solely on the U.N. to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program?
    Yes: 11 percent
    No: 89 percent

    3) Do you believe Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War?
    Yes: 88 percent
    No: 12 percent

    4) Should the U.S. undertake military action against Iran to stop their program?
    Yes: 77 percent
    No: 23 percent

    5) Who should undertake military action against Iran first?
    U.S.: 45 percent
    Israel: 35 percent
    Neither: 20 percent


    Okay. Maybe that wasn't such good news after all. Try this:

    2. Pentagon Increases Domestic Spying

    The 9/11 terrorist attacks have led the Pentagon to step up intelligence efforts inside the United States to protect military facilities and detect possible terrorist threats.

    But critics say the military has also used its intelligence gathering ability to spy on antiwar activists.

    After the attacks in 2001, the Bush administration declared the continental United States a theater of military operations - the first time that has happened since the Civil War.

    Now the Pentagon bureaucracy is building large databases of intelligence information from local police, military personnel and the Internet, The Wall Street Journal reports.

    "In doing so, the military is edging toward a sensitive area that has been off-limits to it since the 1970s: domestic surveillance and law enforcement," according to the Journal.

    The controversial warrantless wiretapping of calls in the United States by the National Security Agency - part of the Defense Department - is one element of the increased intelligence effort.

    To justify the gathering of domestic intelligence, the military distinguishes between "collecting " information and "receiving" it, maintaining that while it is for the most part barred from actively gathering information on American citizens, it is permitted to receive information from the police or federal agencies.

    According to the Journal, the Pentagon has gone beyond seeking to root out foreign terrorists in the United States and monitored more than 20 antiwar groups around the country over the past three years.

    In one case, it warned local police that an upcoming antiwar demonstration had a high probability of leading to violence between protesters and military supporters - an alert that turned out to be unnecessary.

    The military's intelligence gathering program first came under fire in December when NBC News disclosed that the program had targeted protests by peace activists, including Quakers.

    And in early March, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, under questioning by the Senate Appropriations Committee, revealed that the Pentagon had gathered intelligence on two protests against military recruiters in Vermont.

    "Somewhere between government's legitimate security needs and the American people's right to privacy is a proper balance when it comes to the sensitive issue of the use of databases and data-mining," said Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt.

    "The rules that protect against abuse ... need to be followed."

    Polls show general support for heightened surveillance within U.S. borders, however. In a Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll in March, only 46 percent of those surveyed said they opposed the NSA's wiretaps.

    A series of laws enacted during the Vietnam War era - resulting from the military's secret surveillance of dissidents - pushed the military out of domestic spying.

    But the 9/11 Commission concluded that U.S. intelligence agencies needed to improve their ability to coordinate anti-terrorism efforts within our borders, the Journal notes, adding:

    "The Pentagon itself believed it might have prevented the attacks if its ability to operate within the U.S. were less circumscribed, and decided to take a fresh look at the post-Vietnam rules."


    Hey, wait a minute! Bart said they were only "monitoring" Al Quadea. Bart, why did you try to mislead us? Do you really think every anti-war protester is a member of Al Queda? How about the vegans?

    I think you fibbed to us Bart.

    You know who is really radical? It looks like it's the American public.

    I just remembered why I became totally apolitical in the first place. It's when I looked around and realized everyone was crazy.

    I see that hasn't changed.

    ReplyDelete
  170. Anonymous4:59 AM

    Paul Rosenberg said...
    Stop With The Name-Calling Already!

    Anonymous said...

    Hyfascia should hang out at my "friend" Misha's Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler blog

    Cut this out! Hypatia may be a lot of things, but she is nowhere near to being a fascist. I am trying to educate her about her own sloppy reliance on demonization and guilt-by-association. And here you are doing the same thing to her.

    If you can't control yourself, then just shut up!

    3:20 AM


    It depends on your definition of the term, Paul. I chose a definition that actually fits her to a tee. As the 1983 American Heritage Dictionary noted, fascism is: "A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism." I'll let you carry on with your efforts, but let me suggest that you realize these people have decided a priori what the truth is and any attempt to confront them with facts that don't fit their world view will be a waste of your time. They do not have open minds. Why are they here? Because they concluded a posteriori that Bush was not who they thought he was. Not because they listened to reason, logic and facts. Good luck. I think the shock and awe is more effective.

    It's interesting to watch EWO say things like, "Those awful people at the Ayn Rand Institute have nothing to do with the Ayn Rand!"

    Where have we seen and heard that before?

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  171. anon @ 4:49am: They do not have open minds. Why are they here? Because they concluded a posteriori that Bush was not who they thought he was.

    Hilzoy at Obsidian Wings has a rip up of G.W. Here's his take on Reps who voted for him:

    I don't hang out with major Republican movers and shakers. But I know some people who know some of them, and so, over the last few years, I've asked them: why on earth did they all get behind this manifestly unqualified person? And the answer has always been the same: They thought he would win, and that's what mattered to them. [emphasis in original]

    Think about that, as the remaining two and a half years of a failed Presidency drag on. The people who decide which of the Republicans who want to be President get to field a plausible candidacy knew George W. Bush. They had to know that he was manifestly unsuited for the job: that he had no capacity for reflection and self-criticism, no curiosity, no sense of the seriousness of the responsibilities of a President and the importance of living up to them, and no humility in the face of those responsibilities. He had failed at everything he had tried, except for being the front man for a baseball team and the governor of a state in which the governor has virtually no power. And yet they all got behind him, because he could win.

    ReplyDelete
  172. Anonymous5:21 AM

    Paul Rosenberg @ 4:58 AM said...


    And Hyfascia will respond that this is because FDR's administration was riddled with communist agents and trot out the questionable (because they won't allow anyone to verify sources or see purported documents) efforts of Klehr and Haynes, which you can find over at FrontPageMag and that tells you all you need to know. It's a Swiftboat smear to discredit FDR, the New Deal and liberals and liberalism in general. I'm no expert on this matter, but I have investigated enough to know that the VENONA documents are far from conclusive about anything and the work of these two is as credible as the now discredited work of John Lott, (although in another field). It's all gospel to Hyfascia because it fits her preconceived world view.

    ReplyDelete
  173. Anonymous5:25 AM

    Cynic librarian quotes ... I don't hang out with major Republican movers and shakers.

    I suppose Bart fancies himself as a "mover and shaker". EWO and Hyaptia are just "useful idiots". a term contrived by the anti-communist right and falsely attributed to Lenin.

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  174. Anonymous5:34 AM

    I call them fascists because that is what they are, and in spite of David Horowitz' protestations to the contrary, these fascists have wormed their way into every aspect of American life, from the universities and the think tanks on the right, to the military industrial complex, and especially government. They have actually accomplished what the communists never could. I'm afraid I agree with Ender. They are far more dangerous and a more clear and present danger.

    Ender...Fascist or not I do find her completely offensive. I despise her kind actually. IMO, in the long run, people like her are much more detrimental to our nation than folks like Bart.

    ReplyDelete
  175. Anonymous5:41 AM

    Just go over to Wiki and watch the efforts by these people to put this questionable nonsense into the relevant entries. They are determined to rewrite history for the purposes I have described. I have tried to give Hyfascia links to critiques. She isn't interested. It doesn't fit her pre-conceived notions. I just go by what I read. If FDR was a commie, like Ike after him (according to the Birchers), I want to know. I remain unconvinced. Hyfascia will tell you I am a victim of commie propaganda. I have never been a victim of propaganda. I'm a cynic and a skeptic to the end.

    ReplyDelete
  176. Anonymous5:47 AM

    Hypatia @ 9:13

    Reads like a David Horowitz screed, (one of her favorite people). I mean... who wants to redeem this, as if you could? Why bother? Let her get a talk radio show and bark at the moon like Michael Savage.

    ReplyDelete
  177. Anonymous6:14 AM

    Ender... But for BushCo's illegal spying program(s) I am fully convinced she would be fairly content with them overall (halfway down the comments...it really is hilarious).

    Hilarious! Hyfascia has a rather foul and bawdy mouth, herself. Perhaps Paul ought to take a look at that.

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  178. Anonymous6:21 AM

    One final thought, these people view the choice of an economic system as a moral choice. Just as EWO can't seem to grasp that economic systems are not forms of government, Hyfascia is convinced that any economic system other than hers is morally inferior, and to choose, or even consider, a system other than hers makes one, by definition, morally inferior. This is true even where the system is a social democracy. It's an odd pathology.

    ReplyDelete
  179. Anonymous7:56 AM

    I tried recommending One Market Under God but I fear the recommendation was ignored.

    Neither of them will consider "morally inferior" positions or facts or thoughts. They will blame others for their refusal to consider them with reasons like, "You refuse to use a nick name. Why should I take you seriously?" and so on.

    ReplyDelete
  180. Anonymous8:16 AM

    EWO: Don't believe anything you read, anyplace you find it, that contradicts the prtty pictures in your empty little head.

    Former First Lady Barbara Bush said of the war in Iraq: "Why should we hear about body bags and deaths? It's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?"


    He said for three decades, the case has "been dismissed by the Army," and that it was time to carry out "a thorough and expedient investigation of this matter."

    Military experts say the move by the Army to take testimony in the case is one of the few times the Army has reached back into history to look at war crimes committed by a U.S. fighting unit.

    In 1999, Pentagon officials began interviewing witnesses to a U.S. military assault on South Korean civilians during the Korean War in 1950 after the Associated Press wrote stories about the massacre. Two years later, U.S. officials said an undetermined number of civilians were wrongfully killed.

    Since The Blade's series in October, the revelations about Tiger Force "have been hard for the Army to ignore," said William Eckhardt, a war-crime expert and former military prosecutor during the Vietnam War.

    "You need to know what happened, and maybe more importantly, to make sure it doesn't happen again."

    A special fighting unit created to spy on enemy soldiers in Vietnam, Tiger Force spun dangerously out of control for seven months, according to the newspaper's series, which was based on thousands of records and interviews with dozens of former platoon members and Vietnamese villagers.

    Grenades were dropped in earthen bunkers where women and children were hiding and unarmed farmers were executed in their fields. Prisoners were beaten and shot - their ears and scalps severed for keepsakes.

    Mr. Stout, then a reporter for the Screaming Eagle newspaper, said he was barred from writing about the atrocities, but he said he reported the attacks to his commanders. No investigations were conducted, he said.

    The other witness, Mr. Causey, 56, who served as a medic with Tiger Force in 1967, said he's prepared to talk about the platoon's attacks on villagers.

    "What I can clearly say is that we went into that valley and we killed every male over 16 years old - without question," he said. "I only saw one [enemy] gun the whole time. It wasn't about killing enemy soldiers. This was about killing villagers. It went on and on. By the end, I had just had it. I was just sick of it."

    ReplyDelete
  181. Anonymous8:26 AM

    ender said...
    Anon - ever read this before? If not it is worth the read. It is one of my pet projects to get as many folks to read it as humanly possible. Your Mussolini quote made me think of it.


    I'm familiar with Butler. Absolutely. War is a racket. Gus Hasford and many, not all, of the vets from Nam figured this out. Fraggings and combat refusals were common and increasing. So Paul is absolutely correct when he says that the anti-war movement was happening over there at the same time it was happening over here.

    “The South is a big Indian reservation populated by ex-Confederates who are bred like cattle to die in Yankee wars. In Alabama there is no circus to run off to, so we join the Marines.”

    Gus Hasford

    ReplyDelete
  182. Anonymous8:27 AM

    Hypatia, R-E-S-P-E-C-T. You earned it.

    ReplyDelete
  183. Anonymous8:33 AM

    Listen

    There's more like that, and worse. But they won't listen, or Read, or care because those people were "morally inferior".

    ReplyDelete
  184. Anonymous8:34 AM

    Shooter242 said...
    Hypatia, R-E-S-P-E-C-T. You earned it.


    Neither of you have earned any such thing.

    ReplyDelete
  185. Anonymous8:44 AM

    Bart served, so he gets his respect, but he still supports war crimes committed by America and Americans, so he loses points for that. Most Americans just don't support that. You two? Just contempt, I think.

    It's different when you Listen to it. Reading it is so dry and impersonal.

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  186. Anonymous9:30 AM

    I am always sad when I see the comments section dragged into name-calling and threats.

    Two things: Hypatia's original point, which is that the perception of the democratic party as being soft on defense, has been hounding the dems since 72, is probably pretty accurate. National Defense was never an issue in Clinton's two presidential campaigns, largely because the end of the Cold War had removed the 50 year Soviet Boogeyman from our national consciousness.

    However, I find the extent to which she takes this argument reprehensible. Maybe as reprehensible as she seems to find the folks who chanted for Ho Chi Minh in the 60's and 70's.

    Once people started to research the conflict in Vietnam, and discovered how much the government of the US was LYING to them - outright, bald-faced, two-timing LYING (and both articles linked to above about McGovern are great by the way)- why should they have believed anything other than the opposite of what they were told about Ho?

    The real enemy of the American people, and the real betrayer of those who spent time in the Hanoi Hilton, were those idiot academicians in the Johnson administration who couldn't admit that they were wrong for getting us into Vietnam in the first place.

    WE WERE FIGHTING FOR THE WRONG SIDE.
    I don't blindly, or even really at all, support Ho Chi Minh or the North Vietnamese Communists, but realistically he was a lot closer, ideologicallly, to this country and its grass roots populist traditions than any of the tin hat authoritarian dictators we (and the French before us) were trying to cram down the throats of the Vietnamese people.

    We have supported far worse leaders and countries when it suited our purpose to do so. The reasons we were fighting this particular leader are CERTAINLY not the ones we were given at the time or since.

    I love Paul's whole post above.

    Hypatia, I respectfully disagree with you about many things, and am sorry that you have been so disrespectfully insulted and threatened here.

    I do submit that there is a breakdown in certain areas of your reasoning where you adopt some positions that seem radically different than where you are usually coming from, or seem to belie logic and reason more than you usually do.

    Some of these areas are:
    - the Communist Party USA and what membership, or attendance at meetings, meant to those at the time ('20's and '30's)
    - the McCarthy era and the poisonous effects it has had on American politics and US government credibility;
    - the Vietnam anti-war movement
    - Swift Boats dudes

    All of these are linked by a tie with the issue of Communism in the USA, where I will submit that your own obviously passionate anti-communism is clouding your judgment of what it meant to those involved to either: express support for a communist idea or politician or country; or to be someone who advoacated for communism; or to be a communist.

    The conflation of many of these issues is certainly part of the problem, and is a problem in American politics. It is what enabled Nixon (and democratic primary opponents) to label McGovern - a singularly decent, family oriented, WWII fighter pilot farmer from South Dakota - as an acid taking, free love spewing hippie communist - and GET AWAY WITH IT.

    McGovern should have fought back more forcefully, sure. BUT HE SHOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO. As the American people, we should recognize when those public perceptions are that full of shit and change our perception.

    This is, in part, what makes it so upsetting that the conservatives would now try and flush Bush into the Liberal tank so as not to stain themselves.

    Enough of a rant, gotta get to work.

    ReplyDelete
  187. Just my two cents: Whenever people say Dems aren't good on national security, are just buying into the right-wing narrative. McGovern was a WWII hero, but chose not to exploit that fact. Most (literally) hawks of the right-wing variety today are chickens-they never served, and are constantly calling into question the patriottism and national security chops of Dems who mostly did serve. Trusting people who never served in the military on national security over people who know what the horrors of war is like, is like hiring a pr expert to act as your attorney in a criminal case.

    Experienced soldiers advocating peace are not "peaceniks" they are rational human beings who won't send others to die without a damn good reason. At the same time, they wouldn't send soldiers to war without the proper equipment and enough troops; when they got home they wouldn't cut their benefits and charge them for their meals and hospital rooms; make sure they got treatment for PTSD, and make damn sure we got to see the coffins coming home, so they could be honored by the people, and not hidden as if they had themselves done something shameful as opposed to the war-planners.

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  188. Anonymous10:03 AM

    A couple of thoughts...

    * The only way to obtain peace without conflict is surrender.
    * Free Trade and Democracy have the most freedom within a system, in common.
    * Universal health care, always includes rationing.
    * Communist apologists never explain how it involves the killing of multi-millions of human beings.
    * Our leaving Vietnam was the beginning of the killing fields of Cambodia.
    * Chavez of Venezuela is putting himself up for ruler of the next 25 years. Is anyone surprised?
    * People that are rude, crude, and socially unacceptable, are also insignificant.
    * Political labels are not what win elections.

    ReplyDelete
  189. * Free Trade and Democracy have the most freedom within a system, in common.
    * Universal health care, always includes rationing.


    says shooter.

    Free trade in a democracy should be regulated to avoid exploitation of workers and the environment. Otherwise, what you have is a corporate free for all, not free trade.

    I don't know about you, but when HMO's and insurance companies deny payment on tests and procudures you need, I would call that rationing. Not only that, but they give you a list of doctors you can see, and your own preferred doctor may not be on it.

    * The only way to obtain peace without conflict is surrender.

    Once again, with the neo-cons, War is Peace.
    Have you people never heard of mutually beneficial compromise?

    ReplyDelete
  190. Anonymous11:00 AM

    Nick writes:
    All of these are linked by a tie with the issue of Communism in the USA, where I will submit that your own obviously passionate anti-communism is clouding your judgment of what it meant to those involved to either: express support for a communist idea or politician or country; or to be someone who advoacated for communism; or to be a communist.


    To which I say you wouldn't take that position if it read:

    All of these are linked by a tie with the issue of Nazism in the USA, where I will submit that your own obviously passionate anti-Nazism is clouding your judgment of what it meant to those involved to either: express support for a Nazi idea or politician or country; or to be someone who advocated for Nazis; or to be a Nazi.

    You add: The conflation of many of these issues is certainly part of the problem, and is a problem in American politics. It is what enabled Nixon (and democratic primary opponents) to label McGovern - a singularly decent, family oriented, WWII fighter pilot farmer from South Dakota - as an acid taking, free love spewing hippie communist - and GET AWAY WITH IT.

    Yes, they did that. But the other reality is that the Communists really were working through the anti-war movement and influencing the Democratic Party. The FBI knew that.

    Paul Rosenberg and others think it is no big deal that large sectors of the anti-war movement were overtly dedicated to Ho Chi Minh and the victory of Communism in Viet Nam. He sets forth a litany of (bogus) reasons that -- of course -- make Ho's Communism the fault of the United States. Why, Ho was really just sort of a George Washington.

    It is a separate issue whether we should have been in Viet Nam and that LBJ lied to escalate that war; if it was unwinnable and nothing but a hopeless death trap for our troops we should not have been there, and it was reprehensible beyond uttering for him to keep sending our men there if he knew what, for example, Cal Thomas said he did.

    But to side with Communists who proceeded to kill millions after we left -- which John Kerry and many others in the anti-war mvmt said was hysterical prognostication and totally not going to happen, and that we should cut all aid to S. Viet Nam after we left -- is equally disgusting. It would be like opposing the war in Iraq because Saddam is actually a decent guy and Baathism is not far removed from American populism.

    This thread so fulsomely demonstrates why decent people should be very wary of some sectors of the left. Your moral compasses are broken.

    ReplyDelete
  191. Anonymous11:26 AM

    Sunny says:
    Free trade in a democracy should be regulated to avoid exploitation of workers and the environment. Otherwise, what you have is a corporate free for all, not free trade.

    I can agree with that, it's why I said system. But in economics, as life, balance is everything.

    I don't know about you, but when HMO's and insurance companies deny payment on tests and procudures you need, I would call that rationing.

    That's between you and your HMO. More importantly in some systems, certain procedures are not available at any price.

    Once again, with the neo-cons, War is Peace.
    Have you people never heard of mutually beneficial compromise?


    Sure, it generally involves the US agreeing to bribe someone out of bad behavior, while the other party continues the bad behavior in secret. Or openly for that matter. Perhaps you could write a letter to the Janjaweed in Darfur, or the soldiers of Mugabe, or the police of Chavez in Venezuela about the benefits of mutual compromise. I'm sure Kim of Korea would be a receptive audience. Then there's the Oil for Food scandal where compromise shortchanged the starving.

    Do you actually think those people would willingly trade away their power for peace? Not in this lifetime. Let's assume you agree with that concept about the intransigence of despotism. Then what?

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  192. Anonymous11:32 AM

    Dear Sir, I think the question of George W. Bush and political philosophy a bit strained. If there were such a word as illiberal, which meant bad for the philosophic political aims of a liberal project and if it could be linked to neoliberalism' global market and its worst aspects you might have something going on here in Bush presidency that means just plain bad for all. bs

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  193. Shooter:
    "* The only way to obtain peace without conflict is surrender.
    * Free Trade and Democracy have the most freedom within a system, in common."

    Your bullets 1 and 2 are in direct conflict with eash other.

    Free trade with democracy is precisely the best way to obtain peace without surrender.

    ReplyDelete
  194. Anonymous11:42 AM

    Mr. Rosenberg writes: Me: Second, if leftists and liberals cannot see fit to reject and expel people who openly root for the enemy, then they deserve all the opprobrium Karl Rove or anyone else casts them.

    Him: In other words, Joe McCarthy was right. I must confess, this makes it very hard for me to understand what you mean by calling yourself a "libertarian."

    Joe McCarthy launched on inane investigation of the Army, and made many reckless accusations that caused scads of other anti-Communists to repudiate him. But that has NOTHING to do with whether moral people refuse to associate with Stalinists and allow them into their ranks. People who are literally siding with the enemies of the United States, and working in their service, should be cast from our voluntary associations. There is nothing anti-libertarian about such a position; free association means the right to refuse association with those advocating vile things.

    You add: McCarthyism most certainly did destroy thousands of lives. Over 300 people were blacklisted from Hollywood alone. Many more people lost jobs due to trickle-down state-level witch hunts, especially teachers and college professors, who were the type of public employees most commonly attacked.

    The people on those blacklists overwhelmingly were Stalinists. And that blacklist ante-dated Joe McCarthy; it was the by-product of a HUAC investigation. It is true that some teachers who were CPUSA members lost their jobs; one of those was David Horowtiz's father. He doesn't defend that excess and neither do I. But it is accurate to say all of them would, if asked, and if not too risky, operate as agents of a foreign state. Many did just that, even turning the atomic bomb over to Stalin. Our FBI knew this, and so it was hardly irrational for them to worry about having such subversive people infesting large swaths of American institutions.

    What you simply refuse to get is that these people really WERE STALINISTS. It is no less irrational to worry when large sectors of the intellectual and professional class are dedicated to a totalitarian monster who is a Communist, than if they had been dedicated to promoting the interests of Adolph Hitler. HUAC was founded to investigate domestic Nazis who were rallying support for Hitler. Does that concern you?

    And as for your absurd defense of CPUSA members who behaved "patriotically" during WWII; that is only becasue Hitler violated his pact with Stalin. Until that very minute, they were avidly anti-war and anti-FDR, denouncing any wish to take on Hitler as Imperialist warmongering for the benefit of the capitalist profiteers. But the very damn second their motherland was attacked, they were mongering for war in the extreme. Not to defend American interests or those of our Western allies, but to protect the interests of a murderous, totalitarian monster. And some of them used their placement in military intelligence to spy for Stalin. Yeah, real patriots, those.

    ReplyDelete
  195. shooter, I think simply refusing to do business with despots would be a good start. Perhaps we could begin with China? Unfortunately, the US gov't has a long history of enabling corporate interests to do just that. And I mean Republicans and Democrats. If you can stand it, read Chomsky on how the US rewards the worst human rigts violators if they but open up their markets to us.(for instance, Saddam's purchase of all sorts of nasty things in the '80's from US firms, aided by Rumsfeld)

    There is no need to go to war with dictators unless they are directly threatening to do us harm. Carrots and sticks, you know, no need to positively bribe them, just withold.

    As for Kim of Korea, I don't think we do business with him, and he hasn't seriously messed with us. Might I suggest that what is needed there is a true "peoples" revolution, and not interference from us, which would be folly anyway.

    Policing the worlds homicidal maniacs is a whole 'nother thread.

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  196. Anonymous12:23 PM

    I am enjoying the "Is Bush a Conservative or Liberal?" affair.

    But somehow I feel guilty in my pleasure.

    Why discuss what exists in a vacuum?

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  197. Anonymous12:25 PM

    I have total respect for veterans who protested the war, those who did so honorably. John Kerry's group, however, was constitued of many liars and frauds, and some were colluding with the enemy. From Wiki, my emphasis:

    Winter Soldier Investigation

    In January 1971, VVAW sponsored The Winter Soldier Investigation to gather testimony from soldiers about war crimes being committed in Southeast Asia as a result of American war policies. ...

    Veterans applying for participation in the investigation were asked if they witnessed or participated in a whole list of transgressions, including search and destroy missions, crop destruction, POW mistreatment.

    ...

    Vietnam veteran, B.G. Burkett, sensing problems with the "Winter Soldier Investigation," set about to discover whether or not the players in the Winter Soldier Investigation were as they were advertised. He filed Freedom of Information Act(FOIA) requests to obtain information on a number of the more prominent memebers of the investigation. He found that many were fraudulant, some had misled a little bit; many had misled to a much greater degree. This started him on a dedicated mission to unearth imposters (people who claimed to be veterans but were not, or those who claimed to be somewhere but were in actuality were stationed nowhere near where they claimed). In 1998, Burkett and Glenna Whitley published Stolen Valor: How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of Its Heroes and Its History. It is a book which debunks claims of psuedo-veterans as discovered by the FOIA Act, including those involved in the Winter Soldier Investigation. This book is described by Gohn F. Guilmartin, Jr. of Ohio State Univeristy in Columbus, Ohio in The Journal of Military History (Volume 64, No. 3. (July, 2000) page 910-911) as a "first rate work of investigative journalism with important historical implications, not only for our understanding of the politicdal and social fallout of the Vietnam War, but of the very nature of war and warrious and their relationship to society. This book is highly recommended" See also, .

    ...

    According to FBI records, an informant "who has provided credible information in the past" stated that [VVAW member] Al Hubbard traveled to, or would travel to Paris to meet with the North Vietnamese peace delegation to arrange for a Prisoner of War release, with his trip financed by the CPUSA. The FBI filed a report filed on November 24, 1971, stating that on August 13, 1971, Joseph Urgo, Second Vice-President of VVAW also traveled to Hanoi. Urgo’s aim coincided with a planned international action by active duty people to demonstrate against the Vietnam war. Urgo proposed to send tapes to the North Vietnamese to use in Radio Hanoi broadcasts to get US servicemen to stop fighting in Vietnam, and proposed to send a VVAW delegation to negotiate the release of American POWs. (FBI File (S9,p153-154))

    On April 4, 1972, a confidential source reported that “a representative of a North Vietnamese Government at the Paris Peace talks telephoned the 'movement' in the United States telling them to be ready to take action, presumably demonstrations, to counter expected escalation of bombing by American air forces in South Vietnam and North Vietnam as a result of the increased military action of North Vietnamese forces in Quang Tri Province, South Vietnam.” The source reported that VVAW had no specific "actions" planned at that time but that the National Steering Committee would take it up at the next meeting, and announce its plans during a press conference. page 24


    Do read the whole thing.

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  198. Anonymous12:25 PM

    "Hypatia" said...
    Nick writes:
    All of these are linked by a tie with the issue of Communism in the USA, where I will submit that your own obviously passionate anti-communism is clouding your judgment of what it meant to those involved to either: express support for a communist idea or politician or country; or to be someone who advoacated for communism; or to be a communist.

    To which I say you wouldn't take that position if it read:

    All of these are linked by a tie with the issue of Nazism in the USA, where I will submit that your own obviously passionate anti-Nazism is clouding your judgment of what it meant to those involved to either: express support for a Nazi idea or politician or country; or to be someone who advocated for Nazis; or to be a Nazi.


    {Sorry for the long re-paste, couldn't think of a way to cut it down effectively}

    Nazism and fascism are two separate and unequal things, and it is here that I take issue. Just as communism (little c) and Soviet Communism (big c) are two separate things - adherence, advocacy, and interest in or practice of communist idealogies in no way makes someone less of an American.

    Same thing for fascism, which I despise as a political theory, but not solely on the (false) premise that all fascists are Nazis.
    link

    Support for Ho Chi Minh is not something I would advocate, but I do not find it the damning apostasy you seem to find it (thanks for reminding me of that word before, Bart - with all of its suggestions of religious overtones, too). Certainly the ensuing Communist regimes in South Asia were horrific and brutal, but are you really going to suggest that the cause of these eras of terror and brutality was the US pulling out of Vietnam?

    Also, I think you have indicated some of the logical inconsistency I have spoken of yourself when you liken the anti-war movement, which has never made this argument to someone who opposes "... the war in Iraq because Saddam is actually a decent guy and Baathism is not far removed from American populism. "

    No one has made such a claim regarding Saddam.

    The Credibility Gap on Ho Chi Minh and Vietnam was so huge, that I can find it forgiveable to doubt just about anything the US government was saying at the time about those issues. I in no way claim to know much about Vietnam (the country - history, past or present), and do not make any claim one way or the other regarding Ho's policies. I am reasonably well informed in re: US policy and practice in Vietnam during the 1955-1975 period.

    Not enought time to reply fully here from work, sorry. Will engage later.

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  199. Anonymous3:27 PM

    DavidByron lies: She says that Americans should support evil rather than oppose their government during a war.

    What I've said is that one can and, when it is wrong, should, oppose a war, but one ought not to endorse/favor/promote an evil enemy while opposing a war with them. Communists are evil. Pol Pot killed 2 million Budhhists, intellectuals, crippled, retarded and sundry other enemies of the revolution.

    Heard of the Killing Fields?

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