Several prominent conservative bloggers argued vehemently in favor of Bush's impeachment. Leading the charge was LaShawn Barber, who actually drafted articles of impeachment and supported them with this argument:
I believe George Bush’s failure to enforce immigration law and stop the foreign invasion, which he has the power and authority to do, warrants impeachment. Because of Bush, illegal invaders are emboldened, demanding that which they have no legal right to obtain.
While the invasion has caused incalculable physical and economic harm to legal citizens, the president proposes to offer amnesty and allow the harm to continue. To the detriment of those he swore to protect, Bush chooses instead to protect those he has no duty to protect. His actions are in violation of the Constitution.
Misha of Anti-Idotarian Rottweiler joined Barber's call. Inspired by the Malkian outrage de jour -- "Sara Carter, a reporter with the Inland Valley Daily Bulletin, reports today that she found documentation on Mexican government websites that show higher ups in the United States Border Patrol have been tipping off the corrupt Mexican government as to the locations of the Minutemen along the border" -- he argued:
Bushito’s Border Patrol, protecting the rights of illegal border crossers in, er, Illinois?
If Bullshito knew about this, or if he doesn’t do something about it now that he does, and does it yesterday, there can only be one logical conclusion to this undermining of the sovereignty of the United States, undermining of the Constitution and providing intelligence to a foreign government:
Impeachment.
Let’s give him a day or two to explain himself and stop it, NOT a few weeks or months, and then, if he fails to do so, let the hearings begin.
Go for it, Democrats, you have my full and unreserved support.
The anger on the Right over Bush's limp and fearful approach to the immigration problem is so severe that they are even comparing President Bush to Bill Clinton and referring to the Commander-in-Chief with a highly mocking tone:
I can pretty much sum up what El Presidente is going to say in his Monday address. He’s said it all before:
I oppose amnesty, placing undocumented workers on the automatic path to citizenship.
Notice that Clintonian weasel word, “automatic.” Notice his unique definition of “amnesty.” “Undocumented workers” (or “illegal aliens” as they should properly be called) will not get “automatic” citizenship; therefore they’re not getting amnesty.
Things have become so tense over on the Right that I even learned on Michelle Malkin's blog that there is apparently a large group of people who will support George Bush no matter what, due to excess loyalty. Thus, Michelle has been railing against what she calls "blind Bush supporters."
The President's speech tonight on immigration obviously has an exclusively political purpose, intended to highlight border enforcement efforts more than he usually does in order to appease his smoldering volcanic base. Bush is desperate to at least stem the tide of defectors who have long been most loyal to him but have decided that immigration is now the most pressing issue, and that Bush is too weak and fearful to do what has to be done. But Bush is very limited in his maneuverability. He long ago sold his soul on immigration issues to the Wall St. Journal/big business desire for more-or-less open borders and cheap immigrant labor, and the symbolic measures he plans to unveil tonight don't appear to have any remote chance of satisfying the targets of his offerings.
Barber, for instance, has already rejected the speech as a woefully inadequate symbolic measure designed only to appease immigration opponents. She's having none of it:
Bush’s boy Vicente Fox, all frantic about our country’s alleged plan (and right) to guard its own borders, called Bush, who assured him the border beef up is only temporary and will not be a “militarization.” What a thoughtful man, our president.
I predict that his speechwriters will insult our intelligence and present unsustainable and bad argumentation supporting amnesty for border jumpers, including the strawman “We are a nation of immigrants!” and the claim that deporting millions of illegal criminals is impractical. He’ll toss us a half-chewed border enforcement bone to throw us off the trail.
I’m not that hungry. Are you?
It doesn't appear that Michelle Malkin is going to be calmed by this speech either. I'd say the opposite seems true -- from her post today entitled "Too Little, Too Late" (links omitted):
Here we go again.
President Bush is continuing the homeland security dog-and-pony charade in his quest to deliver a massive "guest worker" plan to the open-borders lobby. A few weeks ago, Bush's Department of Homeland Security put on a bogus performance of Get Tough Theater with a series of politically timed immigration raids...which, as I predicted, simply resulted in more catch and release of illegal aliens nationwide.
This new last-minute stunt to sprinkle National Guard troops on the border--temporarily of course, to appease Mexican President Vicente Fox--is more transparent than the Scotch tape used to hold together our dilapidated border fences. (That's only a slight exaggeration).
For all the new tough talk, these additional troops will be barred from actually doing what needs to be done: guarding the border. President Bush is already bowing and scraping to Mexico over the plan before he's even officially announced it.
Many on the Right have decided that Immigration is now the paramount issue that must be dealt with, and their differences with Bush on this issue, which they have long suppressed, are now exploding into the open, which is only exacerbating the president's severe political difficulties. Nothing in particular has happened on the immigration front, leading to the question of why has this issue taken on such critical importance now?
I think a lot of the Malkin types have become bored with the whole "War on Terror" business, which provided them good, strong emotional sustenance for the last four years. But September 11 is now almost five years away. There have been no good "battles" for a long time; we don't even pretend to capture or kill any high-ranking Al Qaeda members any more; and while invocations of "war" will always be good for some blood-rushing excitement, the whole thing seems so distant and abstract at this point. It's just not enough any more.
They're also clearly tired of slogging through the political and ethnic complexities of Iraq. That country just doesn't lend itself to any morally clear good/evil dichotomies. There are no good cartoon villains to hate. Calls for increased "ferocity," less "sensitive" approaches ("bomb some more mosques!"), and less discriminate bombings can generate some temporary enthusiasm -- as it did for a day or so with Shelby Steele's column -- but Iraq is so muddled and ambiguous, and not all that emotionally satisfying. It's pretty depressing, actually, to think about how everything they said would happen there is not happening, and trying to figure out solutions, ways out, is just not very invigorating stuff for those who thrive on Hating and Warring Against Evil.
As a result, attention gets turned to immigration -- Mexican immigration specifically. It entails the opportunity to rail against "appeasement" (of Vincente Fox); to create the anti-terrorist/pro-terrorist dichotomy on which they thrive; and to demonize a clear, foreign enemy as threatening not just our economic prosperity but also our national security (the "Mexican invaders"). And if the weakened, ready-to-be-tossed aside failure, George Bush, is one of the spineless appeasers this time, so be it.
This is a major, major political problem for the White House. The measures which Bush's base demands, the ones necessary to really satisfy them -- a huge wall and active deportation -- are far too extreme for Bush to embrace. And yet they aren't going to be satisfied without extreme measures. The media loves to talk about how Democrats are being harmed because "the Left" of the party is dragging it towards policies which are too extreme, but the reality is that dynamic is taking place within, and is threatening to drown, the Republican Party. Bush has very few supporters left. The few he has left are demanding that he adopt immigration positions which he clearly opposes and which would alienate most people in the country. And he is far too weak to satisfy them with symbolic measures.
They are actually debating his impeachment over this issue. What is a 29% President to do?
Yowza, let the games begin.
ReplyDeleteTry not to trample each other in the rush to jump on the bandwagon.
All the noise of the thundering herd should surely mask the abrupt change of subject. Heh.
The Psychotic Patriot agrees with you, Glenn... The wingnuts, after leaving thousands dead in Iraq like so much used toilet paper, now lust for some easy targets at the border. I am a little surprised at their distaste at Bush's speech before he gives it; it sounds - dare I say it - a little liberal.
ReplyDeleteWhat is a 29% President to do?"
ReplyDeleteWhy, bomb Iran, of course!
All this time I thought the torture scandal or the failures in Iraq or the shredding of the 4th amendment would be enough for the hard right to abandon Bush.
ReplyDeleteWho would've thought that they'd abandon him in a second if they thought he wasn't racist enough.
A few things.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I'll be the first to say that I enjoyed this post quite a bit, both because of the contradictions it reveals and because of the damage it's doing to the Republican Party. There's a certain poetic justice in the party being torn apart by the ignorance and racism they've been fanning over the decades.
But I want to make sure that people also realize the dangers involved here. I recently started reading David Neiwert's blog Orcinus, and it's shown me pretty convincingly that these far-right nativist groups are incredibly dangerous. With their eliminationist rhetoric, increasing prominence in the mainstream, and ties to far-right neoNazi groups, they need to be taken very very seriously.
Incidentally, I just love the phrase "[Bush is only] 29% president."
Lastly, Glenn, it looks like a word got omitted from your quote from Malkin (probably when the HTML was stripped). It should read "which, as I predicted, simply resulted in..." You should probably fix it before Malkin goes all unhinged on you.
It figures when Bush fails to be sufficiently hateful, the right turns on him; regardless of Bush's motive in supporting amnesty, which is hateful toward workers.
ReplyDeleteShooter242 said...
Yowza, let the games begin.
Try not to trample each other in the rush to jump on the bandwagon.
All the noise of the thundering herd should surely mask the abrupt change of subject. Heh.
11:06 AM
Huh? You mean the bandwagon we built, hitched a horse to and have been riding hell-for-leather for the past five years?
And you only hope the thundering herds mask the crashing sound of failure- failure of Bush, failure of the neocons, failure in Iraq, failure of the bushbot world view, and you own failure to change the subject.
I find it disgraceful that anyone would question our Commander-in-chief in a time of war like this. They are giving aid and comfort to the enemy and should be put in one of Malkin's concentration camps ASAP. Wait a minute! Malkin questioned Bush? I always knew she was a liberal!
ReplyDeletePretty soon there will only be 5 non-liberals left in this country.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletePretty soon there will only be 5 non-liberals left in this country.
ReplyDeleteJohn Hinderaker, Jeff Goldstein, Hugh Hewitt, Charles Krauthammer, and Kathryn Jean Lopez, in a closet together, the last 5 "conservatives" left, hugging each other and talking about how strong they are and how great Bush is. That's my prediction.
Instapundit will be around, too, with 70% of his body in that closet and 30%, just in case.
"those who thrive on Hating and Warring Against Evil"
ReplyDeleteThat pretty much sums up what has me so worried. These people traffic in hatred and for a while it seemed like they were in control. The good news is that appear to be losing control rapidly as most Americans see them for what they are
I should have guessed after Dubai warmed their engines that the Pres who ran on Nat'l Security would perish by it. Rep's just wanted Impeachment to reflect the topic of Rep outrage as by now they've expended all their patience in defending Bush, they're weary of watching his back, FINALLY! I have a bet going that by Wednesday, Tony Snow will be stuttering in the Press Conferences, by Thurs he'll just have the stunned headlights in the deer's eyes look.
ReplyDeleteHilarious. I guess even most wingnuts have a level beyond which they start to realize they've been played.
ReplyDeleteWith all the right-wing blogger intensity over the Mexican US border issues, why isn't there anything being said about the Canadian US border? Huh? Who's watching that for illegals?! Silly Malkin. Please remind her we've got two borders thank you very much.
ReplyDeleteMy thought on why the far right is talking impeachment of Bush on immigration? Because they can't co-opt the more successful arguments to impeach Bush on more relevant issues like incompetent war management, or on such leftie issues as violations of the Fourth Amendment and our civil liberties. It's kinda like a pathetic attempt at catch-up...
It looks like some of the cleverer wingers are joining the parade at the front, acting like they're leading the charge.
ReplyDeleteHow very, very amusing.
FINALLY! Something libs and cons can all agree on---impeachment. I want an entire government recall, actually. Throw 'em out and start all over. Shooter's right about one thing: we must be ever vigilant and not allow bushco to *presto-change-o-look-over-
ReplyDeletehere-nothing-up-my-sleeve-o*. They love to try to do that.
Another thing...with the increasing threats of violence from right-wing hate speechers, would it really be such a bad thing to have the National Guard there on the border to put a lid on it? Don't get me wrong, I despise Bush and would rather rip out my own tongue than agree with him about anything but, there are some true hate-mongering wackos down on the border lusting to kill, so....?
On the other hand, why not just start fining the HELL out of the corporations that are actually BREAKING THE LAW by recruiting and hiring undocumented workers (powerless slaves)?
Oh wait...I remember now.
But Bush is very limited in his maneuverability. He long ago sold his soul on immigration issues to the Wall St. Journal/big business desire for more-or-less open borders and cheap immigrant labor,
ReplyDeleteEven if his reasons are venal, this is one of the very few remaining issues on which I agree with Bush. This sick hatred of Mexicans coming from the right is dangerous, and quite alarming. Yes, we cannot have millions of undocumented people simply pouring over our borders. So, let's document them. Among other things, processing could and should weed out criminals and possibly even terrorists.
Militarizing our borders, draconian attacks on employers who give undocumented Mexicans jobs for the sinful wish to -- gasp! -- feed their families, is not an America in which I want to live. It is not possible to stop millions of people along a vast border, who are desperately poor, from coming here to establish a better life, not without establishing a police state. It just isn't, and it would entail a drug-war level of policing to even try to effect it.
The sheerly racist, xenophobic hated of Mexicans is simmering in almost all of this rhetoric. And yeah, I know Barber is black and Malkin Philippino. But it is not uncommon for one oppressed group to vilify yet another. The Irish immigrants spent many decades doing that with blacks; it was their way of telling the WASPs they should be accepted, becasue they are not THAT group, and they are certainly willing to join in hatred of THOSE people.
There are 12 million undocumented Mexicans here, working, living lives, having families. They have roots and do, in fact, contribute to the economy. It is absurd to think we are going to round them up -- and put them where - in camps? -- and ultimately send them all back to Mexico. The sheer enormity and cost of such a task, quite aside from its hateful motivation, is prohibitive.
This is no doubt a huge political problem for George Bush, and I can understand Bush opponents welcoming any trouble he has with his base. But these people are trafficking in irrational hatred, and that is not a force I would like to see go anywhere at all.
On a slightly tangential note, has it occured to anybody that the wall proposed by the Minute Men (which is fun to pronounce like "my-NYOOT") is actually intended to keep people IN, not OUT.
ReplyDeleteYeah, ya know, like the Berlin Wall.
How soon before reverse migration starts to set in? (And that was a mostly-rhetorical question.)
This is not typical:
ReplyDeleteGlenn or whoever says The few he has left are demanding that he adopt immigration positions which he clearly opposes and which would alienate most people in the country.
Sorry Glenn but the tone and tenor of this post just doesn't read as you being you.
Sounds to me like it is time to embrace these conservatives, tell them that all is forgiven, put our differences aside, and IMPEACH THE CHIMP ALREADY!
ReplyDeleteOnce again, Mr. Greenwald is going to have to revisit his overwrought theory about how conservatives are cultists who worship Bush. Particularly since he attempted to use Malkin herself as a prime example of that supposed phenomenon:
ReplyDeleteAnd in that regard, people like Michelle Malkin, John Hinderaker, Jonah Goldberg and Hugh Hewitt are not conservatives. They are authoritarian cultists. Their allegiance is not to any principles of government but to strong authority through a single leader.
It is hard to describe just how extreme these individuals are. Michelle Malkin is the Heroine of the Right Blogosphere.
Economic harm. Lol. Bush should tell them that the economy reaps a benefit and is not harmed (outside 1-2 states). That should shut up everyone but the xenophobes.
ReplyDeleteAnd let's wait to see how many conservatives label Malkin and Barber as "liberals" because they criticized Bush! Here's a perfect situation for Glenn's infamous theory to be put to the test . . .
ReplyDeleteBut Pelosi says that democrats will not impeach the chimp...
ReplyDeleteTalk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory...
When we finally had an area for dialog with conservatives, Dem leaders are proclaiming that they will not impeach. Go figure...
88 said...
ReplyDeleteI had to follow the link to 88's page. In light of what Disenchanted Dave has commented on re: Neiwert, whom I am in complete agreement with. 88 is often used by neo-Nazi groups. It's a reference to the infamous 88mm Krups anti-air, anti-armor weapons of the Reich. Our visitor named 88 is a fellow traveller, and probably a pianist. You can't be too careful and you have to be aware of the danger, but don't shoot the piano player.
Oh yeah. He might also want to point out that the Canadian border is far more porous and much more likely to be used by scary terrorists. And then actually do something about it rather than cater to the anti-Mexican crowd. That should shore him up with the national security segment of his 29% (lol).
ReplyDeleteNortherner said...
ReplyDeleteOnce again, Mr. Greenwald is going to have to revisit his overwrought theory about how conservatives are cultists who worship Bush. Particularly since he attempted to use Malkin herself as a prime example of that supposed phenomenon:
Horsehit! There are two ways to leave a cult. On your feet, or on your back, dead. Which way you leave is often not even up to you.
x-y-no said...
ReplyDeletePresident Cheney here we come ...
You would have had a President Agnew (you wouldn't have wanted that either) after Nixon resigned, but you didn't. Cheney will go first. Then Bush appoints a replacement. Then Bush may make it to the end of his term or not. Speculation perhaps but I think Fitz is trying to flip Rove. That does not mean he needs to flip Rove to get Cheney. I just think this is what is going down. Other people can roll on Cheney.
Justin said...
ReplyDeleteOh yeah. He might also want to point out that the Canadian border is far more porous and much more likely to be used by scary terrorists.
Get out your tape measure and see which border is longer.
I'm loving this. It was apparent during Katrina that we'd reached a tipping point, and that the neocons and theocons and the rest of the cons were about to start ripping each other's throats. Let's cheer 'em on.
ReplyDeletehypatia observes:
ReplyDelete"This sick hatred of Mexicans coming from the right is dangerous, and quite alarming."
Come on. They've gotta hate somebody, after all.
One thing to note is that right wing radio is going full bore on this topic, all immigration, all the time. I listen to some of these shows, for a few minutes anyway, because they tend to precipitate and track the next right wing "crisis" pretty well. One particularly nasty personality is a man named Neil Bortz, based in Atlanta and sindicated nationally. Hi retoric is, well, batshit insane is probably as good a description as any (he's not happy with Bush either by the way). Interestingly, his new gambit is to lump Katrina victims in with undocumenteds as "vermin" a "plague" "criminals" "animals" etc. He stopped just short of calling them "monkeys" or "sand people" but that's coming.
ReplyDeleteEven more mainstream shows are hitting this hard (unfortunatly, Bortz IS mainstream in a large portion of the south) O'really is working this issue like crazy right now as well.
I kind of have fun with it with my conservative friends. First, I ask them what's changed since last year, or two years ago (blank stare).
I also like to ask them how much fence and border patrol that 300 billion we've spent so far in Iraq would have bought us.
ReplyDeleteThe religious right has also finally started to notice that they've been played.
I have never understood why it has been so difficult for the vast majority of people who vote Republican-- be they small business people, religious right or racist nativists--have not noticed that the Republicans never get around to actually implementing the policies they support.
Having complete control of all the levers of government has deprived them of their perennial excuse that some other branch of government is to blame. You know: activist liberal judges, Democratic presidents, liberal Congressmen. It's now very clear that they serve one interest group, and one interest group only--large corporations and their shareholders. That's been clear to most of us for some time, but it'll be interesting watching Bush's numbers crater as he loses the vast majority of his voters.
It's ironic as well that we're seeing, on this issue, the Government work the way the Founders planned. The House is a seething mass reflecting the most short-sighted views of the people, while the Senate is trying to serve as the tea saucer, and the president looks on, powerless really, until there is some legislation passed.
Finally, it's very interesting to see Malkin saying the same thing that atrios has said--that this is a sham, a Potemkin border patrol.
That's nothing new, of course. The House passed a net neutrality bill that removed net neutrality. The list is long--no child left behind, clear skies, healthy forests--but it's interesting that they can see through it when they want to.
tristero has a post up about a potential party schism over the religious right's issues. That does not seem likely to me, but they are very well organized.
However, successful primary opposition in 08 from that side may happen, further polarizing the country. Such polariation would be the end of Republican party's influence over public affairs. The positions that the religious right and the nativists take are opposed by a large majority of Americans.
It was only because the Republicans has not implemented policies in support of those groups, providing only lip service, has been able to gain and stay in power.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteWell finally a post/observation that gets at least some things right.
Bush's poll numbers declining below 40% is almost entirely due to a loss of CONSERVATIVE support. You and the moonbats here never supported him and never would no matter what. So you're opposition to his trying to protect us has NOTHING to do with his loss of support below 40%.
Bush's loss of support below 40% began with Harriett Miers and accelerates every time he speaks on immigration.
Here is my prediction which I'm sure you will like. Bush's speech tonight will say nothing he hasn't said already (except the purely for show only) send the guard to the border crap, and as a result his poll numbers will DROP more after his speech.
On the other hand if Bush were to do that which he will certainly not do, and go on TV tonight and say, "boy I've been wrong on this immigration stuff, we are starting the construction of a wall from the pacific ocean to Corpus Christi tomorrow and until the wall is completed I'm putting armed and deputized national guard and other military on the border with full powers to arrest and detain in tent camps any illegals crossing the border" His poll numbers would jump 10 to 15 percent over night.
He won't do the above of course and as a result his poll numbers will DROP again after his speech tonight.
On the whole impeachment thing for lack of border security, I have to admit its a pleasing thought to think of a President Cheney for the next two years, but I can not support the frivilous use of the impeachment power, so I must disagree with those whom you say are supporting it.
Says the "Dog"
the Dog" said...
ReplyDeleteGlenn,
Well finally a post/observation that gets at least some things right.
Here's an interesting comment from a guy with no books on the market and a blog that gets hit on less than a dead hooker at a mortician's convention.
The unholy alliance between the racists and the fundies on the one hand (the suckers who put Bush where he is) and the wealthy corporate interests (the real beneficiaries of his rule) has been an accident waiting to happen for some time. It now looks like immigration might be the fault line that shatters it for good.
ReplyDeleteAbout time.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteLoved the tongue-in-cheek para on the blind Bushies...
I even learned on Michelle Malkin's blog that there is apparently a large group of people who will support George Bush no matter what, due to excess loyalty. Thus, Michelle has been railing against what she calls "blind Bush supporters."
Tonight should be very sad (only in a pitiful sort of way)...could it be Bush's "I am not a crook" moment?!?!
Bush Lied, Should be Tried!!
Styve
I take that back, dog. You probably do have a book on the market. Your bookie is probably shopping it around for ten cents on the dollar. The contractor who picks it up will get the rest in a pound of flesh and bone.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteGlenn:
ReplyDeleteI am glad you finally received the 411 that the NSA Programs are not driving the Bush popularity poll drop in the least.
Much of the GOP base, not to mention the Dem blue collar base, have major issues with illegal immigration and the resulting tens of billions of dollars in government spending to support them. Out here in Colorado, almost all of the spike in Medicaid payments are for illegals.
This simmer turned into a boil after 9/11 and when the illegals and their supporters paraded with Mexican flags demanding benefits and recognition.
All that aside, you are missing the real story here.
The GOP is in a serious bind. Its law and order base wants the law actually enforced. However, demographically, the immigrants are perfect GOP voters - religious, family oriented and hard working.
The GOP could actually gain seats this fall if they catered to the current heavy majority anger at illegal immigration. However, they would lose the immigrant vote for at least a generation and give the Dems an actual shot at a operational majority.
The tough, smart and correct decision would be to embrace expanded immigration with tougher border controls for illegals and terrorists. The GOP would lose more seats and maybe the majority this fall, but they would ensure a operational majority for the next generation.
The secular 60s Dem base is not reproducing and will literally start dying off with the boomers over the next 30 years. The married couples with children are overwhelmingly Elephant. Immigrants are part of this demographic so long as the GOP does not alienate them.
Bush is not running for reelection and the Dems have no ideas apart from impeachment hearings if they do take power in Congress.
Bush needs to do the right thing, take the sword for the party and use every power he has left to force through an immigration compromise.
The Dems will waste the next year with hearings, alienating the American people and a new set of Elephant faces will be running for President in 2008.
Do the right thing, George.
The trend that should really be watched is conservatives disagreeing with Bush for not "being conservative enough." I've been seeing on some of the Rights' blogs that their unhappiness with Bush being "too liberal" is the explanation for the low poll numbers (ie. "the polls ask if you are unhappy with Bush, but they don't ask why.").
ReplyDeleteThey are seeing a conservative lead the country down a rocky path, when all they've been preaching is that conservatism would save the country, so they have to distance themselves by renaming Bush "too liberal." It reminds me a bit of those who argue that communism will save the world. Then you point out that communism fails (most of the time) and they then retort, "oh, they weren't doing it right."
So there you have it.
ReplyDeleteABC News: The Government Is Monitoring Our Phone Records ‘To Root Out Confidential Sources’
Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteLet's take a gander at what you linked...
ABC News: The Government Is Monitoring Our Phone Records ‘To Root Out Confidential Sources’
Brain Ross and Richard Esposito of ABC News’ investigative unit report that, according to a senior federal law enforcement official, the government is monitoring their phone calls to discover the identity of confidential sources:
A senior federal law enforcement official tells us the government is tracking the phone numbers we call in an effort to root out confidential sources.
“It’s time for you to get some new cell phones, quick,” the source told us in an in-person conversation.
This, of course, is the real problem with the extra-legal collection of phone records by the government, revealed by USA Today last Thursday. No one really has objections to doing whatever is necessary to defeat al-Qaeda. But when you do so outside the law and without meaningful Congressional oversight, it leaves the door wide open to abuse.
If by "confidential sources," these reporters mean intelligence agents committing felony crimes by leaking classified materials, this sounds like a criminal investigation.
Long past time.
I don't think there are 67 senators who would vote to remove even Cheney from office, much less Bush. Until somebody puts forward a reasoned case for how those 67 votes can be obtained in the real world (as opposed to the world of constitutional theory), all this talk about impeachment is essentially a waste of bandwidth and a diversion of energy away from more effective political opposition to Bush and Cheney.
ReplyDeleteBush's poll numbers declining below 40% is almost entirely due to a loss of CONSERVATIVE support. You and the moonbats here never supported him and never would no matter what.
ReplyDeleteSo what your saying is we were the "smart" ones for knowing he was a peice of crap from the jump.
Why would you then think its so special that only now you have pulled your heads out of your collectective rectums?
I see this a lot, with my winger dad bitterly complain that us leftists(Democrats) have always hated Bush and dont know why.
I love the man dearly, and am glad he is jumping off the bandwagon, but this whole immigration thing is just an excuse to finally jump off a sinking ship.
I dont remmember this 'mexican' thing being such a big deal when ha and his buddies were doing the big end zone dance when the figured they had deafeated the liberal boogie man.
And speaking of hating a president without even knowing why, I give you " Americaa held hostage, day 1"
Ditto-heads know what Im talking about.
Lou Dobbs says make it a felony for companies to hire illegals. For once I agree with a republican!
ReplyDeletethe doggie says:
ReplyDeleteBush's poll numbers declining below 40% is almost entirely due to a loss of CONSERVATIVE support.
Almost certainly correct.
The point is that many of us figured out what a sham Bush is very early on. It took Katrina, the Iraq war, the Meiers nomination, various scandals, etc for the remainder of the country to realize this.
Sure, the conservatives were the last to get it, so what? Better late than never. And now, even the Bush cultists are beginning to see the light.
Step back and look at the man's resume. He has not been successful in any job he's ever held. At least not without his family, his friends, or the public bailing him out. The evidence was there all along. You just had to have an open mind and look at it.
I am afraid he will bomb Iran soon.
ReplyDeleteBart...If by "confidential sources," these reporters mean intelligence agents committing felony crimes by leaking classified materials, this sounds like a criminal investigation.
ReplyDeleteLong past time.
It's not political, is it? Bart, give shooter back his marble. You've got two, you can spare at least one.
bart at 12:27
ReplyDeleteThe tough, smart and correct decision would be to embrace expanded immigration with tougher border controls for illegals and terrorists.
To complete that argument you have to explain, first, why enforcing existing laws that require employers to hire only legal residents is impossible. It would stop illegal immigration immediately, if enforced. It's much cheaper, and much more effective than trying to seal a border. Sealing the border would also be horrible for border commerce--Mexican consumers cross the border both ways all the time.
But, more fundamentally, you have to deal with the argument that nobody is interested in enforcing immigration laws against undocumented workers. The laws are shams, put up to mollify the groups that losing their shit over their sudden discovery that the laws are shams, symbolic statements rather than actual policy. A law with 12 million unarrested violator is not a law that is in any way intended to be serious.
It's a law designed to give corporate and individual employers of illegal aliens cover, but not to actually prevent the employment of people who have to operate outside of US labor law--minimum wages, overtime OSHA etc.
Bush needs to do the right thing, take the sword for the party and use every power he has left to force through an immigration compromise.
ReplyDeleteNever happen. This has nothing to do with the party or the country. This is a family thing between him and his father. This is all about, "Look, daddy! I can president all by myself!"
By the way, thank you Glenn. I really didn't know about this. (Also, I can't wait to read your book.)
ReplyDeleteJust some random remarks on the immigration issue:
ReplyDelete1) Anyone notice how the rabid hate-filled nativists come out of the woodwork in times of crisis? This anti-immigration movement hits that nerve. Note the parallels between this movement and the rise of the KKK against Eastern European immigrants in the early part of the 20th sentury.
2) Much of the anti-immigrant movement is very racially oriented. One statistic loved by these people is that the US is "turning brown." With the influx of immigrants and the news births of children to immigrants already here, many in the anti-immigrant party see a threat to white Xtian hegemony.
3) As usual, this anti-immigrant issue misses the economic interests underlying the "problem." Many people leaving their countries of origin are doing so because those places are being decimated by the US economic exploitation of their countries. US neoliberalism treat Latin America like a big sweatshop. It steals the natural resources and lives of these countries to support a US lifestyle whose ultimate basis is unsustainable except through the exploitation of others.
4) The nativist undercurrent is based on a real economic reality: the majority of white poor creates a seething mass of rage and fear by those white Americans who think the US belongs to them. Yet, they continue to receive any benefit from the ecoonomic success that is America. That rage is easily manipulated by pointing to the "aliens" among us. These aliens are the reason you're not getting what you deserve goes the propaganda. Therefore, we see the President and his party scapegoating others and exploiting a socio-economic environment that breeds envy, resentment, and rage.
Bart says:
ReplyDeleteDo the right thing, George.
Sorry, Bart. It's just not in his personality. GWB does what's good for GWB and his cronies. It's about time you realized that.
Jay Ackroyd said...
ReplyDeletebart at 12:27: The tough, smart and correct decision would be to embrace expanded immigration with tougher border controls for illegals and terrorists.
To complete that argument you have to explain, first, why enforcing existing laws that require employers to hire only legal residents is impossible.
Politically, economically or metaphysically?
Of course, the government has the power to enforce the employer laws.
However, economically, such a move would force the nation into a recession. How exactly do you suddenly remove several million workers from their jobs without putting the employers out of business?
Moreover, politically, the Elephants would lose the latin immigrant vote for a generation.
Once again, I split with the Elephant base on this issue. I am for free and orderly immigration so long as we know who is entering, the immigrants have jobs and the immigrants are not taking up government services.
I am merely describing the political dilemma facing the GOP.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteExactly how do *you* know how often a dead hooker gets hit on? A voyeur of dead hookers are we?
Get some help.
Says the "Dog"
bart @ 12:59 said...
ReplyDeleteA list of things we need to elect people to NOT do, in hopes of getting bart and his ilk to legally or illegally emigrate elsewhere. I don't much care how or where.
Perhaps this group of republicans are also redirecting their frustration (and anger?) over the Iraq failure into this issue, which should make it harder for preznit to deal with.
ReplyDeleteOn the whole impeachment thing for lack of border security, I have to admit its a pleasing thought to think of a President Cheney for the next two years, but I can not support the frivilous use of the impeachment power, so I must disagree with those whom you say are supporting it.
ReplyDeleteThe Dems will waste the next year with hearings, alienating the American people and a new set of Elephant faces will be running for President in 2008.
Do the right thing, George.
If by "confidential sources," these reporters mean intelligence agents committing felony crimes by leaking classified materials, this sounds like a criminal investigation.
Here are some examples of dumbass comments for which I LOVE the *collapse* button.
Bart ( @ 12:27p)"
ReplyDelete"The GOP could actually gain seats this fall if they catered to the current heavy majority anger at illegal immigration."
You are insane.
Even uber-con wingnut Richard Viguerie is floating the meme that it's better for Republicans to lose in this election, so that after the drubbing they know is coming they can always say: "We meant to that!"
"There is a growing feeling among conservatives that the only way to cure the problem is for Republicans to lose the Congressional elections this fall," said Richard Viguerie, a conservative direct-mail pioneer.
Mr. Viguerie also cited dissatisfaction with government spending, the war in Iraq and the immigration-policy debate, which Mr. Bush is scheduled to address in a televised speech on Monday night.
jay c:
ReplyDeleteWhat it looks like, though, is that the White House is not actually "cater[ing]" to "majority anger" - but merely pandering to a strident minority (even in the GOP) - the "nativist" fringies
There is nothing "fringe" about the current anti-immigrant movement. There is a solid majority supporting these policies.
dewgrey said...
ReplyDeleteI don't think there are 67 senators who would vote to remove even Cheney from office, much less Bush. Until somebody puts forward a reasoned case for how those 67 votes can be obtained in the real world (as opposed to the world of constitutional theory), all this talk about impeachment is essentially a waste of bandwidth and a diversion of energy away from more effective political opposition to Bush and Cheney.
I don't care what you say, dewgrey. I'm going to keep beating my drum for impeachment over and over and over and over and over and.......
Myths about immigrants:
ReplyDeleteImmigrants take jobs away from Americans.
Studies have shown that quite the opposite is true: Immigrants create jobs. Specifically, various recent studies have shown that:
* Immigrants are more likely to be self-employed and start new businesses.
* Small businesses, 18 percent of which are started by immigrants, account for up to 80 percent of the new jobs available in the United States each year.
* Slightly more than 10 percent of the U.S. industrial workforce, or roughly 2.2 million Americans, are employed by foreign companies doing business in the United States.
* Additionally, the top 105 multinational corporations doing business here have U.S. affiliates that are so large they would qualify for the Fortune 500 list solely on the basis of their stateside operations. Etc. etc. etc.
I greatly admire Ayaan Hirsi Ali, but have been bemused, to put it mildly, at so many on the right who embrace her -- they do so only because she is fiercely critical of Islam, and they tend to paper over her militant stands on gay rights and feminist issues. So, it is amusing to see that their heroine is an illegal immigrant.
ReplyDeleteAli is moving to the U.S. She's going to need time to get acclimated to the political realities here, and she will almost certainly run into trouble with her new employer, an entity that is not on board with her social policy views. Ali ardently defends the very liberal approach taken by the Netherlands in myriad matters, and I cannot remotely see her thriving at the American Enterprise Institute. It is quite representative of the right that thinks the secular humanist Dutch are minions of Satan.
But, the AEI and the right are opening their arms to an illegal immigrant who lied on her asylum application, because they adore what they think she stands for.
James t suggested, "Resign?"
ReplyDeleteFortunately, if ever there was a President so stubborn as to hang on until he's dragged his party down with him, it's this one.
It's telling that I consider that prospect fortunate. I'm a libertarian who's long found both the major parties pretty useless to change anything in Washington. However, the contemporary GOP has become such a cesspool of idol worship (when things were going good for W) and corruption that I'll be happy to see Dear Leader do them in. I may not agree with the Dems, but I'm ready for a new batch of scoundrels. This batch has worn out its welcome.
Where will you go, Bart? I know Mexico is out of the question. How about Switzerland? I think you will like it there. One canton didn't even give women the vote until 1977. It's perfect for you. National Health care is coming. I am usually a pro-gun guy but when I see the kinds of wingnuts who end up getting them, (for what I don't know because they still don't make any of you feel safe), I tend to reconsider my position. It won't be too long after that until we nationalize the oil and energy companies. So where you headed, Bart? Or are you going to read the Turner Diaries for the 50 th time?
ReplyDeleteWell, he could always resign.
ReplyDeleteThis situation points to a larger problem with Roveism -- emotions are like cocaine: if you're going to use hetred as a means to win elections, you've got to keep increasing the dose.
ReplyDeleteRight-wing TV and radio are, indeed, all aflutter about immigration and those scary Mexicans. John Gibson (isn't he an albino?)last week plaintively called on whites to have more babies, so the brown skins don't outbreed us.
ReplyDeleteObviously, the issue of the multiple perils of Mexicans is to take ascendancy for the right's outrage-mongers. For the time being.
The immigrants are just coming to El Norte to get what was promised to them. They were promised that by letting American-style economics in their countries they could live like Americans. Seeing the results of neoliberalism, they just figure that they'll move north to get what they paid for in natural resources and blood.
ReplyDeletebart-
ReplyDeleteCriminal investigations are bound by law. Use of the illegal NSA program to gather information on leaks pursuant to prosecution under US law would taint any prosecutions that resulted, leading to acquittals for any investigation targets.
As usual, your warped view of reality has led you to a conclusion that is 180 degrees from correct.
I think the right is embracing this immigration issue in a way that contradicts Bush's lifelong positions as a face-saving way for them to untie themselves from the legacy of Bush's failed presidency.
ReplyDeleteI would look to those same people to do a full flip on the issue as soon as Bush is out of the way, to restore the coalition with the Wal-Mart wing of the party. These are not principled people.
Bart-
ReplyDeleteA majority of the voices in your head is not a 'solid majority'.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWhere will you go, Bart? I know Mexico is out of the question. How about Switzerland? I think you will like it there. One canton didn't even give women the vote until 1977.
Elephants are the ones who take patriotism to an extreme according to you folks. We don't leave, we fight.
I believe the only ones who talk about cutting and running from the US were all leftwingnuts like Alex Baldwin.
If you are one of these heroes, let me know how your move to France went after the Dems lose another Presidential election in 2008.
Phillip said...It's telling that I consider that prospect fortunate. I'm a libertarian who's long found both the major parties pretty useless to change anything in Washington. However, the contemporary GOP has become such a cesspool of idol worship (when things were going good for W) and corruption that I'll be happy to see Dear Leader do them in. I may not agree with the Dems, but I'm ready for a new batch of scoundrels. This batch has worn out its welcome.
ReplyDeleteEisenhower warned us about this. He actually warned his brother Edgar in a confidential letter in 1954, the public he warned about the military-industrial complex.
[I]t is quite clear that the Federal government cannot avoid or escape responsibilities which the mass of the people firmly believe should be undertaken by it. The political processes of our country are such that if a rule of reason is not applied in this effort, we will lose everything--even to a possible and drastic change in the Constitution. This is what I mean by my constant insistence upon "moderation" in government. Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas.5 Their number is negligible and they are stupid.
If you can corrupt and pollute a political party to the extent that the GOP has been corrupted and polluted, you can clean the corruption and pollution from a political party. It's done in large metropolitan police agencies from time to time. It takes time and patience and honest incorruptible people. Right now the only vehicle for that is the Democratic party. 100 years from now it may be the Republican party, or even a viable third party may surface and come to power. I'm going with the Democrats for now. I don't know what kind of libertarian you are, most of them are very sketchy, but my brand of libertarianism has more in common with liberalism and a resurgent Democratic party. You gotta do what you gotta do.
bart said...
ReplyDeleteElephants are the ones who take patriotism to an extreme according to you folks. We don't leave, we fight.
Bart,
When the tanks roll up to the compound, like at Waco, it's not tear gas they are pumping in there. It's napalm. Don't be fooled.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeletebart- Criminal investigations are bound by law. Use of the illegal NSA program to gather information on leaks pursuant to prosecution under US law would taint any prosecutions that resulted, leading to acquittals for any investigation targets.
Exactly how do you know what the government is doing according to this anonymous leak? How do you know the leak is not disinformation or merely the fears of one of the traitor leakers?
The government does not require a warrant under the 4th Amendment to obtain telephone records. Therefore, the exclusionary rule probably does not apply.
Meanwhile, if these reporters are in fact involved in a criminal conspiracy to leak classified materials, they may want to take the advice to change their telephones regularly, just like Mafioso and terrorists do...
The sheerly racist, xenophobic hated of Mexicans is simmering in almost all of this rhetoric.
ReplyDeleteWow. You people all march in lock-step don't you? Anyone who is opposed to illegal immigrants (the vast majority of whom are now coming from Mexico because they happen to be a neighboring country and we share a common border) is racist, xenophobic and hates Mexicans.
OK. If that's what you all want to tell each other, fine.
We are a nation of immigrants, yes, but we are also a melting pot.
There are people from all over the world who desperately want to come to this country. Many wait for years to no avail and never get that opportunity. Chinese families scrape for years to save up the $70,000 per person they pay to corrupt people smugglers after which those same Chinese people risk their lives stowing away stashed in dark cubicles in the bottom of boats. Many of whom get here are sold into bondage and made to work in inhuman sweat shops for sub-minimum wages to save enough to send money back to their families who have virtually bankrupt themselves to raise those huge sums to pay people smugglers to get a family member into America so that person can have a decent life and a chance to succeed.
Huge numbers of individuals from Russian and Soviet bloc countries who came here on temporary visas and overstayed those visas to continue to stay here and work are routinely conned by profiteers here in this country who promise them they can get help them become legal residents and then run off with their money.
How many people from Nepal who have demonstrated such courage in fighting for a democracy there would emigrate here if there was open immigration from that country and jobs waiting for them here even before they learned to speak English?
I would be in favor of an open borders policy applied equally to all nations until a certain much, much higher number of Americans, whatever that is sensibly determined to be, is reached.
But I want to see Africans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Russians, people from India, Korean and people from all the countries around the world who have been waiting to escape their lives of oppression and poverty and who see American as a land of freedom and opportunity come here freely, following whatever sensible procedures are put into place to document those who come here and keep out subversives, criminals, people who do not agree with our system of laws, etc.
People who emigrate here should also either speak English or be willing to attend classes to learn the language and in most cases should have someone willing to "sponser" them as has been this nation's traditional practice.
If the President has to submit himself to the Rule of Law, arguing that others do not is merely hypocritical.
If people want different, more liberlized immigration policies as many of us do, they should support laws which open up immigration.
Laws. Not the breaking of exisiting laws.
If there are only five people in this country who believe in treating people from all foreign nations equally and vastly liberalizing our immigration laws to allow America to continue to be the melting pot it has always been, make that six.
bart said:
ReplyDeleteIf by "confidential sources," these reporters mean intelligence agents committing felony crimes by leaking classified materials, this sounds like a criminal investigation.
Long past time.
Once again, Bart, nuances are lost on you. Do you understand the difference between a 'whistleblower' and a 'leaker'? If so, please explain in your own words the definition to both of those terms.
Bart... Meanwhile, if these reporters are in fact involved in a criminal conspiracy to leak classified materials, they may want to take the advice to change their telephones regularly, just like Mafioso and terrorists do...
ReplyDeleteThose of us who have been around a bit longer than you, perhaps, think it's more likely that they want to know who the sources are. It's purely political. They know several sources who have leaked classified info right in the WH, and they are protecting them.
Nixon wanted to firebomb the Brookings Institute because they were possession of certain unclassified documents that could harm the President, not endanger national security. That's right, firebomb. Maybe with napalm.
June 1971
NIXON: They have a lot of material. I want -- the way I want that handled, Bob, is: get it over. I want Brooking. Just break in. Break in and take it out. You understand.
HALDEMAN: Yeah. But you have to get somebody to do it.
NIXON: Well, you -- that’s what I’m just telling you. Now don’t discuss it here. You’re to break into the place, rifle the files, and bring them out.
HALDEMAN: I don’t have any problem with breaking in.
NIXON: Just go in and take them. Go in around 8 or 9 o’clock. That’s right. You go in and inspect and clean it out.
cfaller96 said...
ReplyDeletebart said: If by "confidential sources," these reporters mean intelligence agents committing felony crimes by leaking classified materials, this sounds like a criminal investigation. Long past time.
Once again, Bart, nuances are lost on you. Do you understand the difference between a 'whistleblower' and a 'leaker'? If so, please explain in your own words the definition to both of those terms.
To start, a whistleblower is reporting a crime, not merely disagreeing with policy. Despite the best efforts of the folks around here, nothing close to a crime has been proven.
Moreover, a whistleblower makes a good faith effort to report the alleged criminal activity to the IG, Justice and, if necessary, Congress for prosecution. None of the traitors blowing the NSA programs to al Qaeda have done this. They went straight to the press to score political points.
Shoes of Peace,
ReplyDeleteYou go girl... Beat that Tom Tom. Worked really well in the past.
Says the "Dog"
Hey...WORKs for me!
ReplyDeleteI'll take an Impeachment of this Imbecile on ANY issue, any day of the week.
Just so long as they Support IT!
:-D
I got to hand it to you, Bart. I would want you with me at the Alamo, but you are just on the wrong side on this one, buddy.
ReplyDeleteDon't beat the drum. Kick the dog with those shoes of peace.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBart... Meanwhile, if these reporters are in fact involved in a criminal conspiracy to leak classified materials, they may want to take the advice to change their telephones regularly, just like Mafioso and terrorists do...
Those of us who have been around a bit longer than you, perhaps, think it's more likely that they want to know who the sources are. It's purely political.
No, its purely criminal.
They know several sources who have leaked classified info right in the WH, and they are protecting them.
You better let Fitzgerald know this. He hasn't been able to come up with a single criminal case for leaking classified information.
Why stop at Nixon? You could just as easily talk about RFK bugging MLK or the Clintons illegally rifling through about a thousand FBI files for their political opponents.
What you have been unable to show is Mr. Bush doing anything similar.
eyes wide open said:
ReplyDeleteBut I want to see Africans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Russians, people from India, Korean and people from all the countries around the world who have been waiting to escape their lives of oppression and poverty and who see American as a land of freedom and opportunity come here freely, following whatever sensible procedures are put into place to document those who come here and keep out subversives, criminals, people who do not agree with our system of laws, etc.
So, am I correct in assuming that you don't support building a wall along the Mexican border? What about putting armed soldiers on the Mexican border to detain and expel illegal immigrants? How about deputizing ordinary citizens to do the same thing, but with less judgment and sensitivity (and possibly more gunfire and killings)?
I noticed that you didn't talk about those specific proposals- why? Where do you stand on the specific policies being proposed by the batshit insane wingnuts?
I too think the immigration issue is a problem, but I'm confused (though not really) as to how a wall along only one border is going to help solve anything.
I personally think it's more than a coincidence that the wall would go up along our border with the country with the non-white people, don't you? If it is just a coincidence, then where are the calls for a Canadian wall as well? Or is that step 2? Seeing as how terrorists often try to enter through that border, why don't we build our first wall there, and make it step 1?
Do you see why this smells a little racist to informed, sensible people?
Unfortunately we aren't going to have tapes from these clowns, but this is the type of thing that is being discussed in the oval office about now...
ReplyDeleteJuly 5, 1971: Nixon, Haldeman, and Ziegler, 4:03 P.M., Oval Office Conversation #537-4; cassette #876
NIXON: Jewish families are close, but there's this strange malignancy that seems to creep among them -- radicalism. I can imagine how the fact that Ellsberg is in this must really tear a fella like Henry to pieces -- or Garment. Just like the Rosenbergs and all that. It just has to kill them. I feel horrible about it.
ZIEGLER: Could make up an English name.
HALDEMAN: ... Rosenstein could change his name. ...
[general laughter]
ZIEGLER: It is right. It's always an "Ellsberg."
NIXON: Every one's a Jew. Ellsberg's a Jew. Halperin's a Jew.
HALDEMAN: Gelb's a Jew.
NIXON: But there are [unclear] -- Hiss was not a Jew. Very interesting thing. So few of those who engage in espionage -- are Negroes. ... In fact, very few of them become Communists. If they do, they like, they get into Angela Davis -- they're more the capitalist type. And they throw bombs and this and that. But the Negroes. -- have you ever noticed? ... Any Negro spies?
HALDEMAN: Not intellectual enough, not smart enough... not smart enough to be spies.
NIXON: The Jews -- the Jews are, are born spies. You notice how many of them are just in up to their necks?
HALDEMAN: A basic deviousness.
Talking to White House Chief of Staff H.R. Haldeman at Camp David in August 1972:
NIXON: Reagan is not one that wears well.
HALDEMAN: I know.
NIXON: On a personal basis, Rockefeller is a pretty nice guy. Reagan, on a personal basis, is terrible. He just isn't pleasant to be around.
HALDEMAN: No, he isn't.
NIXON: Maybe he's different with others.
HALDEMAN: No.
NIXON: No, he's just an uncomfortable man to be around. Strange.
It makes blow jobs seem somewhat innocuous by comparison.
This is so freakin funny! Blind bush supporters calling blind bush supporters blind bush supporters! I really have to thank Malkin because laughter is the best medicne and I'm feeling extreamly healthy now.
ReplyDeleteDog, copyright infringement can be costly.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dog_Eat_Dog_US.jpg
says the dog kicker
Bart... You better let Fitzgerald know this. He hasn't been able to come up with a single criminal case for leaking classified information.
ReplyDeleteBart, you have no idea what kind of case Fitz has. Furthermore, you know damn well it's the cover-up, not the crime that hangs them, and if there was no crime, why the cover-up? They may be stupid and incompetent, but that stupid and incompetent? If that's the case, I think we'll all feel safer with them on the lecture circuit after they get out.
Wow. You people all march in lock-step don't you? Anyone who is opposed to illegal immigrants (the vast majority of whom are now coming from Mexico because they happen to be a neighboring country and we share a common border) is racist, xenophobic and hates Mexicans.
ReplyDeleteI happen to believe that there are real problems with unmanaged illegal immigration and that we cannot abide the continued flow of millions of people across the borders without any controls and documentation and all in violation of the law. Leaving aside the economic debate, that produces myriad political and cultural problems, including how the rule of law is perceived.
I have written posts here condemning those who automatically equate concern with illegal immigration with racism. There are plenty of legitimate grounds for being concerned about the effects of limitless illegal immigration, and attempts to equate those concerns with racism are no better, in my view, than attempts to equate objections to the Iraq invasion with a lack of patriotism.
Nonetheless, there is an ugly and racist component to some of these objections. Some of the people screaming for a wall are clearly motivated by ideas that are less than noble. That doesn't mean that everyone - or even most people - who want strong anti-immigration measures should be subject to that criticism, but it is clearly there and I think those who want to see strong anti-immigration measures are best served by recognizing that fact and condemning - not pretending that it doesn't exist.
The only reason the Malkins are howling now is to try to get in front of an issue that can (1) mobilize at least some voters and(2) provides distance from Bush, who can't really be rehabilitated at this point. Anything to talk about other than Iraq this close to an election is nice, too.
ReplyDeleteBaiting brown people will do for that.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeletesays the dog kicker
We all love animals, but there ain't no PETA people here. And a rabid dog has to be put down.
bart said:
ReplyDeleteTo start, a whistleblower is reporting a crime, not merely disagreeing with policy. Despite the best efforts of the folks around here, nothing close to a crime has been proven.
Moreover, a whistleblower makes a good faith effort to report the alleged criminal activity to the IG, Justice and, if necessary, Congress for prosecution. None of the traitors blowing the NSA programs to al Qaeda have done this. They went straight to the press to score political points.
So, monitoring the calls of newspaper reporters without a warrant isn't a crime?
Don't you think Whistleblowers can also be defined as employees who fear reprisal (or termination) for expressing their concerns/knowledge of illegal activity to their supervisors or fellow employees? And if you agree with that, don't you then agree that federal employees really can't report this to other members of the federal government, since they are all fellow employees?
All of this debate assumes, of course, that the NSA leakers didn't report their concerns to their supervisors, to the DoJ, to Congress, etc. We don't know that, and so we can't summarily label them as 'leakers'.
I did find it interesting, though, that you think that speaking to the press rather than other branches of government in order to score political points represents a 'leak'.
Did President Bush 'leak' classified material and harm national security when he authorized the disclosure of a CIA agent's identity? Remember that this information was selectively (and misleadingly) disclosed to a few reporters, not to the general public at large, and certainly not to other branches of government. And a strong argument can certainly be made that the motive was purely political.
So- is President Bush a 'leaker' in your mind?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBart... You better let Fitzgerald know this. He hasn't been able to come up with a single criminal case for leaking classified information.
Bart, you have no idea what kind of case Fitz has.
I know that he has finished his first grand jury and only came up with a weak perjury claim arising from an alleged discrepancy between the memories of a couple reporters and Libby as to the first time Libby made a statement.
Nada for leaking classified information.
The second grand jury is supposed to be considering a discrepency between Rove's memory of the timing of a conversation with a reporter. However, Rove immediately provided the requested info and amended his testimony. Not even a rumor of an indictment against Rove for leaking classified material.
Furthermore, you know damn well it's the cover-up, not the crime that hangs them, and if there was no crime, why the cover-up?
What cover up?
Bart said -
ReplyDeleteIf by "confidential sources," these reporters mean intelligence agents committing felony crimes by leaking classified materials, this sounds like a criminal investigation.
Remind me again .. if they think a crime is being committed, why aren't they getting a warrant?
Wow, you really don't understand the fourth amendment do you?
Not even a rumor of an indictment against Rove for leaking classified material.
ReplyDeleteNot on Fox or NewsMax. :)
What cover up?
I have two words for you... Like Patrick Henry, two first names...
John Dean.
A real patriot. Though I think they are in short supply in this administration. I doubt there is a true patriot among them. Just the same, Fitz will get them. He's a true patriot.
Wow, I especially like the quotes
ReplyDelete"believe George Bush’s failure to enforce immigration law and stop the foreign invasion, which he has the power and authority to do, warrants impeachment. Because of Bush, illegal invaders are emboldened, demanding that which they have no legal right to obtain."
and
"If Bullshito knew about this, or if he doesn’t do something about it now that he does, and does it yesterday, there can only be one logical conclusion to this undermining of the sovereignty of the United States, undermining of the Constitution and providing intelligence to a foreign government"
So if a president knowingly breaks the law or turns a blind eye to lawbreaking by other US officials, conservatives concider that an impeachable offense, huh? Can we quote them on that? Or is consistancy too much to ask?
I greatly admire Ayaan Hirsi Ali, but have been bemused, to put it mildly, at so many on the right who embrace her -- they do so only because she is fiercely critical of Islam, and they tend to paper over her militant stands on gay rights and feminist issues.
ReplyDeleteHypatia, I don't think Ali's views on gay and feminist issues will be a problem for her at AEI. When it comes to the welfare state, however, they may conflict.
As for the Right's embrace of her, I think the better question is why she is non-existent on the Left's radar screen. As a general matter, the Left pays no attention to the Global Jihad, except insofar as a particular episode serves as a talking-point against Bush. I wish I knew why. My guess is that Bush-hatred has led the absurd situation where the Global Jihad is seen as just another Right-wing bugaboo. The Right-wing blogs, for all their problems, at least pay attention to the jihad trend, documenting the cancer that is spreading for anyone who cares to notice. Figures on the Left -- like AHA or Christopher Hitchens -- who do pay attention, and speak out, are understandably embraced.
Ultimately, the Left's apathy will be its undoing.
bart-
ReplyDeleteWoodward and Bernstein, faced with a lawless administration like the Bush Administration did exactly what you describe when they were being leaked information of illegal use of government resources to tamper with elections.
I applaud the efforts of reporters to reveal the same kind of information about this criminal administration.
Here's your boy, Bart.
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 1:36PM:
ReplyDelete"Elephants are the ones who take patriotism to an extreme according to you folks. We don't leave, we fight."
Certainly true. Just look at how the fight in Iraq is going right now.
And I'd point out the only jingoistic rhetoric in the air right now is coming exclusively from the right side of the aisle, intermixed of course with all the eliminationalist and paranoid ranting that is.
Truly something to be proud of there.
I have noted the Xtian Right's hypocrisy on the govt. spying scandal for some time. One of the key parts of rapture theology, a.k.a. Dispensationalism, is the idea that the Beast 666, the Devil's emissary, will institute a surveillance program to track everyone.
ReplyDeleteNow Pat Robertson has broken the odd silence about this issue in reference to allegations of spying by the NSA. According to the following article, Robertson told a group of students:
In light of the NSA wire-tapping revelation, which he called a "tool of oppression," Robertson admonished the Bush administration for "encroaching on" Americans' personal liberties.
Now Bush is really in trouble. My guess has been that much of the remaining 29 percent faithful in the polls are the fanatically faithful Xtian Right. About seven months ago, I suggested that Bush's approval ratings would hit 25 percent. Once Robertson gets onboard the anti-Bush ship, we could see those poll numbers dipping to around 20 percent.
[Edited for typos]
The Hidden Imam said... Right-wing bugaboo.
ReplyDeleteHeh. Indeed.
WaPo
ReplyDeleteMiami, Fla.: The blogs are abuzz with reports of Karl Rove's impending (some say actual)indictment. What's the story?
Tom Edsall: I think we will know very soon, perhaps as soon as early afternoon. No guarantee, however.
It's nice to see that the Republican Party is so intent on alienating an entire generation of future voters, so that they can cling to the perpetually disgruntled nativist bloc. It's very saddening to think that in the short term, this kind of racialist pandering will harm the poorest, the most vulnerable. But in the long run, it'll be apparent that right now, the GOP is doing a splendid job of fucking itself over.
ReplyDelete-- sglover
Even Bush knows better than to rant about "Global Jihad"!
ReplyDeleteOne again Bush's problem is an insufficient level of undirected blind hatred.
Enjoy the stew.
cfaller96 said...
ReplyDeletebart said: To start, a whistleblower is reporting a crime, not merely disagreeing with policy. Despite the best efforts of the folks around here, nothing close to a crime has been proven.
Moreover, a whistleblower makes a good faith effort to report the alleged criminal activity to the IG, Justice and, if necessary, Congress for prosecution. None of the traitors blowing the NSA programs to al Qaeda have done this. They went straight to the press to score political points.
cf: So, monitoring the calls of newspaper reporters without a warrant isn't a crime?
Depends what you mean by "monitoring?" You need a warrant to surveil the contents of the call. You don't need one for simple call records.
Don't you think Whistleblowers can also be defined as employees who fear reprisal (or termination) for expressing their concerns/knowledge of illegal activity to their supervisors or fellow employees?
No. Alleged fear of retaliation is not required to be a whistleblower.
And if you agree with that, don't you then agree that federal employees really can't report this to other members of the federal government, since they are all fellow employees?
Most definitely not. If there is a crime, report it to the criminal justice authorities. Your first recourse should not be to reveal intelligence gathering to the enemy.
All of this debate assumes, of course, that the NSA leakers didn't report their concerns to their supervisors, to the DoJ, to Congress, etc. We don't know that, and so we can't summarily label them as 'leakers'.
There is no evidence in any of Justice's releases that any of this was ever reported. Tice is the only known traitor and he does not claim he reported to anyone but the NYT and then al Qaeda.
I did find it interesting, though, that you think that speaking to the press rather than other branches of government in order to score political points represents a 'leak'.
How is that even mildly surprising? Its the law. No whistleblowing statute allows the government employee to give classified information to the press.
Did President Bush 'leak' classified material and harm national security when he authorized the disclosure of a CIA agent's identity?
Do you have any proof of this "authorization?"
Remember that this information was selectively (and misleadingly) disclosed to a few reporters, not to the general public at large, and certainly not to other branches of government. And a strong argument can certainly be made that the motive was purely political.
Perhaps you mean the President's authorization to give portions of the NIE concerning Iraq's attempt to obtain uranium from Niger? The President has absolute legal authority to classify and declassify information.
This isn't just a problem for a 29% president, this is the end of the cheap-labor/xenophobe coalition that has been so crucial to the GOP's southern strategy.
ReplyDeleteThe immigrant protests have scared the GOP's base so bad that they're actually expecting results this time. That's bad. In the past, the GOP has been able to use illegals as cheap labor AND as a boogeyman to scare poor whites into voting against their interests.
Now what are they gonna do?
Once Bush goes home to Connecticut in 2009 the problem for the GOP will still be there.
.
Isn't this the other shoe dropping?
ReplyDeleteThe piece is written in a roundabout sort of way. But if I understand it, Brian Ross is reporting at ABC news that the US government is tracking the calling patterns of political reporters to further their leak investigations.
If that's true, then I think we can set aside any pretense that administration policy on all manner of electronic surveillance isn't being brought to bear on political opponents, media critics, the press, everybody.
I think part of the issue for many people on the administration's various forms of surveillance is not just that some of activities seem to be illegal or unconstitutional on their face. I think many people are probably willing to be open-minded, for better or worse, on pushing the constitutional envelope. But given the people in charge of the executive branch today, you just can't have any confidence that these tools will be restricted to targeting terrorists. Start grabbing up phone records to data-mine for terrorists and then the tools are just too tempting for your leak investigations. Once you do that, why not just keep an eye on your critics too? After all, they're the ones most likely to get the leaks, right? So, same difference. The folks around the president don't recognize any real distinctions among those they consider enemies. So we'd be foolish to think they wouldn't bring these tools to bear on all of them. Once you set aside the law as your guide for action and view the president's will as a source of legitimacy in itself, then everything becomes possible and justifiable.
ABC Reports NSA Is Monitoring Reporters Phone Records, Reopens Questions About CNN’s Amanpour
There's going to be a whole shoe store dropping this week.
Bart said "What cover up?"
ReplyDeleteCall it what you will, or won't, but it's awfully awkward, don't you think, that butter wouldn't melt in the mouth of Bush as he denied knowing who might have leaked information regarding Plame's identity, and as he speculated that "perhaps we'll never know?"
Given that they ALL knew at the time who had given the information to the press, and that they had all discussed this matter, their pretense at ignorance can only be called a lie (another one to add to all their others).
If they're so confident they were in the right to release Ms. Plame's identity, why didn't they simply say so at the time?
Because they're cowardly little shits who know they're in the wrong, that's why. They'll try to evade discovery for their crimes, and, when found out, they'll scapegoat when they can, or claim "inherent authority" to do whatever it was they previously denied when they can no longer deny.
A more wretched pack of sniveling weasels has never occupied the White House.
Haha once again the morons are getting duped..Those in power have decided Bush no longer serves any use to them at 29%. So what can they do..impeach him on the real issues - ie. the massive lies, corruption, and war? Not without further damaging the Grand Old Party....So they're filling the noise machine with impeachment via immigration..And the usuals are buying it 100%..
ReplyDeleteThey've shown their hand..The turning on Bush starts in earnest.
From Bart at 2:53PM:
ReplyDelete"The President has absolute legal authority to classify and declassify information."
And this has been legally tested? Please quote the exact case and reproduce its ruling ad nauseum.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIt's nice to see that the Republican Party is so intent on alienating an entire generation of future voters, so that they can cling to the perpetually disgruntled nativist bloc. It's very saddening to think that in the short term, this kind of racialist pandering will harm the poorest, the most vulnerable. But in the long run, it'll be apparent that right now, the GOP is doing a splendid job of fucking itself over.
-- sglover
This is true. Bush is my favorite guy right now. In fact, knowing what i know now, if I had it to do all over again, I would have voted for him myself in 2004.
Hey, all.
ReplyDeleteBecause I, too, occasionally go for a swim in the right-wing sewer, check out the dreck Vox Day has at WorldNetDaily
Oh, you shouldn't click on that if you have high blood pressure, a heart condition, or you've recently eaten.
Maj. Gen. John Batiste:
ReplyDelete"I FELT AS THOUGH I HAD BEEN USED POLITICALLY"....
Support the troops... if it's politically expedient.
Bush's likeability ratings
ReplyDeleteSure! I'd like to have a beer with him, if he was buying.
So, am I correct in assuming that you don't support building a wall along the Mexican border?
ReplyDeleteI am not opposed to building a wall along the Mexian border if that becomes necessary but that would be a step to be taken only
after stiff penalities, including criminal ones, are enforced against these exploitative companies who employ people (who for a variety of factors most of which have to do with the fact that they are here illegally) at wages which would be substantially below market if the free hand of the market determined the wages and not the cozy Government/exploitative corportists alliance, the true benificiaries of our policy or non-policy of illegal immigration.
What about putting armed soldiers on the Mexican border to detain and expel illegal immigrants?
Absolutely not. The military should be enaged in only one thing: defense of this country from other nations who seek to initiate force against us.
How about deputizing ordinary citizens to do the same thing, but with less judgment and sensitivity (and possibly more gunfire and killings)?
I cannot think of anything in which I am less in favor. I am about the last person who finds "rednecks" and gun freaks amusing.
I noticed that you didn't talk about those specific proposals- why?
Because I am long-winded enough as I am sure all can attest to without getting into every nuance of every issue. Nevertheless, I just talked about those specific proposals, since you asked.
Where do you stand on the specific policies being proposed by the batshit insane wingnuts?
If you mean the things you mentioned above, I just told you. The difference between Mexicans who come here to work and the companies who break our laws to employ them at below market wages is that at least the Mexicans' motives are pure whereas the companies who continue to pay them those wages and refuse to obey the law are anything but.
I too think the immigration issue is a problem, but I'm confused (though not really) as to how a wall along only one border is going to help solve anything.
I personally think it's more than a coincidence that the wall would go up along our border with the country with the non-white people, don't you?
No.
If it is just a coincidence, then where are the calls for a Canadian wall as well? Or is that step 2? Seeing as how terrorists often try to enter through that border, why don't we build our first wall there, and make it step 1?
This is a not a well framed question in my opinion. Who said anything about wanting to close our southern border to prevent "terrorists" from getting in? Certainly not I. There are enough "terrorists" right here in our own Government to fully occupy my "worry quotient." Border security on both borders to prevent undesirable potential enemies of America from entering this country would be a sensible policy. But that has little to do with the issue of illegal immigration which concerns mostly people who come here to work and often to live. BTW, from what I have heard and read the vast majority of Mexican illegal immigrants who are in this country do not want to merely be given "working papers" to enable them to work here legally.
They want to become citizens and stay here, thereby jumping ahead of all those across the world who have been waiting for years and longer to get permission to emigrate to this country legally.
Our immigration policy in general is a total mess and exquisitely corrupt and unfair.
The immigration lawyers do quite well however as they are experts at the crony system and they usually know who to pay off or bribe if they have a client who can afford to do so.
As for Canadians, please tell me, since you seem to know, exactly how many illegal immigrants from Canada come here annually?
I, for one, didn't see millions of them marching holding Canadian flags and demanding the "right" to get free education, medical services, etc. here and maybe take back a few states to redress past grievances.
Are there Canadian radio stations who work with revolutionary groups which can mobolize all Canadians here to speak with one voice and demand their, to my mind, non-existent "rights"?
I suspect there are comparatively very few Canadian illegal immigrants compared to the number coming in from Mexico and Latin America and one reason might be the Canadian government has worked over the years to make that country a place where their own citizens can find work rather than voting in a bunch of corrupt leaders whose primary interest is lining their own pockets rather than taking steps to better conditions in the countries they lead.
However, if facts demonstrate that even one-quarter as many Canadians enter this country as illegal immigrants, I would want to see the same exact measures to ensure border security put into place on our northern border.
You mixed up two issues when you are talking about Mexicans and Canadians: terrorists and workers.
Do you see why this smells a little racist to informed, sensible people?
I see that many people on the right, and less on the left, are racists.
If you want to lump people like Lou Dobbs into that category you lose my interest because you lose any pretense, imo, to an informed opinion or a rational argument.
BTW, I am hardly an expert on the subject of immigration so I have a relatively open mind as to which proposals are fair, workable policies which best serve the interests of American workers, the people about whom I am most concerned because I am an American.
I will say that Lou Dobbs is a person I have listened to over the years and I have always found him to be very knowledgable about a lot of issues having to do with financial matters. I also have agreed with his positions on what is wrong with the Bush administration.
I have never detected the least whiff of racism on his part, and because he is a very well informed person whose basic values often mirror my own, he is a person whose views on this matter I do find, at least initially, persuasive.
If some of his positions are wrong and I hear someone who argues that case persuasively to me, I would of course weigh that new evidence and re-formulate some of my own views.
I would be delighted to actually see Lou Dobbs become President and I wish he would run. He has been one of the most courageous, forceful, non-partisan and principled opponents of this Administration and this Congress of whom I am aware.
I suppose some people hate him because he is a white man, but I am not one of those.
PS. If you want my opinion, the vast majority of people in support of illegal immigrants from all nations who spoke on television during the recent demonstrations, mostly from Mexico but some from all nations, were the last people who I personally think have any concept of American values or appreciation for our Constitution.
Those would not be the kind of people I would welcome with open arms as fellow citizens.
Hey Jude...
ReplyDeleteI should have followed your advice. I have high blood pressure and I've just eaten. Nevertheless, I clicked on your link.
Absolutely disgusting. Now who's gonna clean up this mess?
I would be delighted to actually see Lou Dobbs become President and I wish he would run. He has been one of the most courageous, forceful, non-partisan and principled opponents of this Administration and this Congress of whom I am aware.
ReplyDeleteEeewwwww!
Judging by your past performance at picking them, I think we'll pass on your suugestions for candidates. Thanks, but no thanks.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteHere's your boy, Bart.
Full transcript:
CORN: David Corn from “The Nation Magazine” on a different subject. Scott McClellan told the White House press corps, many who are here today, that he had spoken to you and you were not involved in the CIA leak. Can you explain why the American public, almost two and a half years later, hasn’t been given an explanation and don’t you think it deserves one for that misinformation because it does seem you were to some degree, though maybe disputed, involved in that leak?
ROVE: My attorney Mr. Luskin made a statement on April 26th. I refer to you that statement. I have nothing more to add to it. Nice try, though.
:::heh:::
BTW, was there a question in that mass of incoherent rambling by Corn?
I knew there was something about Lou Dobbs I didn't like.
ReplyDeleteDobbs serves or has served on the boards of the Society of Professional Journalists Foundation, the Horatio Alger Association...
I certainly agree with Glenn that many people hold concerns about illegal immigration without being racists. But no one is going to convince me that racism and neo-nativism are not at play with many on the right who are angrily and hysterically jumping on the anti-immigration bandwagon. Indeed, I think some of them are literally ill with anger and hatred; how else to explain a black woman, La Shawn Barber, approvingly linking to to this?
ReplyDeleteAnd she's also liking Steve Sailer at V-dare. (I don't disagree with Sailer on *everything,* but he is a xenophobic racist.)
On the economic bases for illegal immigration, see Oxford University's Ha-Joon Chang, "How the Economic and Intellectual Histories of Capitalism Have Been Re-Written to Justify Neo-Liberal Capitalism":
ReplyDeleteIf the policies and institutions that the rich countries are recommending to the poor countries are not the ones that they themselves used when they were developing, what is going on? We can only conclude that the rich countries are trying to kick away the ladder that allowed them to climb where they are. It is no coincidence that economic development has become more difficult during the last two decades when the developed countries started turning on the pressure on the developing countries to adopt the so-called “global standard” policies and institutions.
During this period, the average annual per capita income growth rate for the developing countries has been halved from 3% in the previous two decades (1960-80) to 1.5%. In particular, Latin America virtually stopped growing, while Sub-Saharan Africa and most ex-Communist countries have experienced a fall in absolute income. Economic instability has increased markedly, as manifested in the dozens of financial crises we have witnessed over the last decade alone. Income inequality has been growing in many developing countries and poverty has increased, rather than decreased, in a significant number of them.
BTW, was there a question in that mass of incoherent rambling by Corn?
ReplyDeleteJournalists get to ask those kinds of open ended and leading questions, Bart.
Yes Or No answers don't make good stories and reporting.
I don't think there are 67 senators who would vote to remove even Cheney from office, much less Bush.
ReplyDeleteWell, it there is anything to the current corruption charges, we could get more than 67 if we used boy and girl prostitutes as "persuaders."
Robert1014 said...
ReplyDeleteBart said "What cover up?"
Call it what you will, or won't, but it's awfully awkward, don't you think, that butter wouldn't melt in the mouth of Bush as he denied knowing who might have leaked information regarding Plame's identity, and as he speculated that "perhaps we'll never know?"
In other words, you have no evidence to back up your slander of a "cover up" (sic)? Big surprise.
Given that they ALL knew at the time who had given the information to the press, and that they had all discussed this matter, their pretense at ignorance can only be called a lie (another one to add to all their others).
That doesn't appear to keep you from passing along other lies. What evidence do you have that "they ALL knew at the time who had given the information to the press?"
If they're so confident they were in the right to release Ms. Plame's identity, why didn't they simply say so at the time?
You are still off in la la land pretending that there is any evidence of an intent to release the identity of Plame's job classification. Fitz could not find any. Indeed, every single conversation on the subject appears to have been initiated by a reporter.
I've never understood why people seem to find Bush "likable." Even before I had no more than a passing distaste for him, (because of his disgraceful mocking of Karla Faye Tucker, after her execution, for having asked him to commute her sentence, and for his truly imbecilic, not to mention dishonest, reply of "Jesus" to the question of which political philosopher had most influenced him, as well as for his being a Bush and a Republican),yet found little to distinguish between him and Al Gore, I didn't see anything "likable" about his personality. He always struck me as being one of those overgrown highschool jock-types or college fratboys who think picking on those weaker than they is the height of hilarity and machismo...you know, stupid and snotty and proud of it.
ReplyDeleteIt just goes to prove the Sub-Genius axiom, "Act like a dumbshit and they'll treat you like an equal." People "like" Bush because he seems as ignorant and inept as they are, and as superficial.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 2:53PM: "The President has absolute legal authority to classify and declassify information."
And this has been legally tested? Please quote the exact case and reproduce its ruling ad nauseum.
Look it up yourself. Even the press has admitted this.
Ned Lamont for U.S. Senate Introduction Video
ReplyDeleteThree months ago, Ned Lamont began the kind of campaign entrenched DC power-brokers fear and beyond-the-beltway Democrats recognize as the only way to reclaim our country for ordinary Americans. This video introduces you to Ned, contains interviews with many Connecticut voters, and information on the actions and positions of Senator Lieberman. Now we need your help to spread the word to your friends and family.
Can you all help out and forward this video to everyone you know?
Thanks.
ROVE: My attorney Mr. Luskin made a statement on April 26th. I refer to you that statement. I have nothing more to add to it. Nice try, though
ReplyDeleteActually a bit more subdued than DeLay or Cunningham or Ney when they were still in the defiant denial stage. You know where that went. I'd say Rove is another dead man walking, Bart.
Defiant Ney gets ovation from fellow Republicans
House Republicans gave Rep. Bob Ney (R-Ohio) a standing ovation after he told them yesterday that he has no plans to resign and will vigorously fend off a likely federal indictment.
Unlike Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas), who announced his retirement after a former top aide pleaded guilty in the Jack Abramoff investigation, Ney is vowing to remain in Congress despite the recent plea deal of a high-level ex-aide, former Chief of Staff Neil Volz.
During their weekly Wednesday-morning meeting, Ney informed his House GOP colleagues that he remains committed to fighting the federal investigation into whether he exchanged legislative favors for trips, gifts and meals.
(...)
While many members appreciated Ney’s comments, others thought it was only a matter of time before the lawmaker is indicted as part of the corruption probe and thought that seeking their support is beside the point.
“Dead man walking,” one Republican lawmaker said afterward.
Michelle Malkin would dare to disagree with her President over a national security issue during a Time of War?
ReplyDeleteWhy does sMichelle Malkin hate America?
For some reason like lack of evidence, Fitz doesn't even want to answer the trial court's questions about whether Plame was actually undercover...
ReplyDeletePerhaps the key moment in the descent happened last February in the courtroom of U.S. District Judge Reggie Walton. Fitzgerald was there, along with the Libby defense team.
Libby’s lawyers had asked Fitzgerald to produce evidence that Valerie Plame Wilson was a covert agent at the CIA. They had also asked for an assessment of the damage, if any, caused by the exposure of her identity.
In papers filed with the court, Fitzgerald refused both requests. Now, in the courtroom, Judge Walton wanted to hear Fitzgerald’s reasons.
“Does the government intend to introduce any evidence that would relate to either damage or potential damage that the alleged revelations by Mr. Libby caused, or do you intend to introduce any evidence related to Ms. Wilson’s status and whether it was classified or she was in a covert status or anything of that nature?” Walton asked.
“We don’t intend to offer any proof of actual damage,” Fitzgerald said. “We’re not going to get into whether that would occur or not. It’s not part of the perjury statute.”
It was an astonishing statement, in the context of what Fitzgerald has said in the past.
Go back to the news conference he held last October in which he announced the Libby indictment. The case was very serious, Fitzgerald said, as he launched into the famous metaphor in which he compared the CIA-leak case to a baseball game in which the pitcher threw a fastball, hit the batter and “really, really hurt him.”
This case is kind of like that, Fitzgerald said, only “it’s a lot more serious than baseball. And the damage wasn’t to one person. It wasn’t just Valerie Wilson. It was done to all of us.”
There was no way one could listen to that and escape the conclusion that Fitzgerald was claiming the disclosure of Mrs. Wilson’s identity did serious damage. But that was then. Now Fitzgerald doesn’t want to talk about it.
But what about Mrs. Wilson’s job status? When that issue came up, the conversation went truly off track.
Wells was again pressing the judge to force Fitzgerald to turn over evidence of the damage done. The reason he needed it, Wells said, is that Fitzgerald will likely — and understandably — tell the jurors that the case began with the outing of a CIA agent.
“What [the jurors] are hearing is that, as Mr. Fitzgerald said in his press conference, Mr. Libby outed a CIA agent, and they are going to be sitting in the box thinking 007’s identity has been disclosed and that my client is a terrible person,” Wells said. “It’s going to be like we have turned over the crown jewels because we outed a classified CIA agent.”
The judge then turned to Fitzgerald. What did he have to say?
“We are trying a perjury case,” Fitzgerald said. “If she turned out to be a postal driver mistaken for a CIA employee, it’s not a defense if you lie in a grand jury under oath about what you said.”
So there you have it. Not only does it not matter if the Valerie Plame Wilson leak did any damage, or no damage at all. It doesn’t even matter if Wilson even worked for the CIA. What Patrick Fitzgerald set out to investigate, the alleged politically motivated, deliberate exposure of a covert CIA agent, no longer matters.
> http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/Comment/ByronYork/051106.html
Not to be petty, but does Michelle Malkin even know what a "strawman" argument is? It is a gross misrepresentation of the position of an opponent, making it easier to "defeat" the opponent without actually engaging his or her argument. As in, "The Democrats support terrorists, but I want to protect America." She just uses it as a generic "bad" word. She disagrees with Bush's strawman argument. Good, so what do you think of his real argument?
ReplyDeleteI am starting to think that Republicans are incapable of counting past the number 2. Things, not just nations and people but even words and rhetorical devices are either good or evil. All bad arguments are bad in every possible way, so in addition to being fallacious they are "strawmen". Intelligent debate is just a matter of aquiring a lot of "good" and "bad" words to hurl around as if they were synonomous.
hypatia said But no one is going to convince me that racism and neo-nativism are not at play with many on the right who are angrily and hysterically jumping on the anti-immigration bandwagon.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you completly about that hypatia.
But that's them.
Isn't the issue working together to come up with fair, rational, responsible and carefully considered immigration policies which best serve the interests of American citizens?
No matter what position one takes in life there are often others who have that same position for all the wrong reasons.
Still, coming up with the best carefully considered policy is the important thing, regardless of the people one actively dislikes who happen to support that same policy.
I think name calling on both sides can be equally misguided.
It just goes to prove the Sub-Genius axiom
ReplyDeleteScrew Lou Dobbs! Bob Dobbs
for President in 2008!
Bart,
You should handle their defense. Luskin needs you.
The entire Bush administration and most of the GOP... Dead men walking.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis dropping of Bush for his immigration policy fits right into the extreme far right's ideological concerns. Some might remember that during Bush's father's reign, many on the extreme right rebelled against Bush Sr.'s rhetoric of the "new world order." There is some evidence that these ideas gave birth to Tim McVeigh and his cohorts.
ReplyDeleteTo see the link between anti-immigrtaion extremism and the extreme right wing, consider this passage from an article about militias, Xtian Idenitity and the radical right:
At this point the religious framework of the radical right intersects with its conspiratorial view of politics. The tribulation will be the era of the Antichrist, Satan's final instrument in his struggle to defeat God in the battle for control of the world. Rightists see the federal government falling more and more under the control of malevolent forces. In this context one can understand why George Bush's popularization of the phrase "new world order" at the time of the gulf war was a political gaffe. He meant, of course, a reinvigoration of the system of collective security envisioned by the drafters of the United Nations Charter. But to some, the phrase "new world order" refers to the imposition of the Antichrist's rule. Important segments of the evangelical mainstream have endorsed this view. Pat Robertson in his 1991 book The New World Order uses the phrase as a code word for a diabolical plot, which he describes with anti-Semitic over-tones. The fact that "new world order" has taken on conspiratorial associations for Protestants outside the radical right is seen by rightists as a validation of their own worldview.
From this viewpoint, junior Bush's immigration plans fall into the machinations of making the US into a non-state that is run by the UN. In not defending the borders Bush, according to this logic, is undermining the legitimacy of the US as a distinct nation. Indeed, according to this logic, the very idea of allowing non-whites into the country means that the US is losing its strongly "Amerikan" culture.
I dont hate immigrants at all.
ReplyDeleteI hate the Slave Labor Lobby that brings them in, exploits them without paying minimum wage or payroll taxes, and is rewarded by larger taxcuts for their behavior.
While many members appreciated Ney’s comments, others thought it was only a matter of time before the lawmaker is indicted as part of the corruption probe and thought that seeking their support is beside the point.
ReplyDelete“Dead man walking,” one Republican lawmaker said afterward.
I hate the Slave Labor Lobby that brings them in, exploits them without paying minimum wage or payroll taxes, and is rewarded by larger taxcuts for their behavior.
ReplyDeleteIf their situation here is so bad, why do they not go back? Why do more and more of them fight so hard to get here?
ANSWER - Because it's better for them here than where they came from, you paternalistic creep.
Nobody forces them to come here. They come here knowing exactly what life and what OPPORTUNITY they will have. THEY make the choice to come. They then enter into agreements for work in exchange for pay. They don't leave.
Only know-it-all assholes would think they should interfere in the choices other adults make because YOU think you know what's best for them.
You know who got the dirty job of telling Tricky Dick it was time to resign?
ReplyDeleteGeorge H.W. Bush
Warren writes: Only know-it-all assholes would think they should interfere in the choices other adults make because YOU think you know what's best for them.
ReplyDeleteThank you.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 2:53PM: "The President has absolute legal authority to classify and declassify information."
And this has been legally tested? Please quote the exact case and reproduce its ruling ad nauseum.
Look it up yourself. Even the press has admitted this.
Classic fact-free response.
Rick Perlstein has given Digby permission to publish an excerpt from his forthcoming book "Nixonland". Drop over there for a look.
ReplyDeleteMichael Falcon-Gates said...
ReplyDeleteWe *really* don't want the *Republicans* to be impeaching this President.
If the Democrats do it, it'll be about rule of law and the lack thereof. About packing the executive branch with incompetent cronies. About killing a few tens or hundreds of thousands of people. What that impeachment will say to the world is, the United States doesn't approve of these things, and we're going to try not to let them happen again.
If the Republicans do it, it'll be about tolerating the rest of the world. About being the land of opportunity, about the huddled masses yearning to be free. And *that* impeachment will say that we're not going to do *that* anymore.
Bill Maher used to feel the same way. He even criticized Bush for taking too much vacation time. Maher's come to realize that Bush should take as many days off as he likes, all the way thru 2009, making it less likely that he will screw up anything else. As far as impeachment goes, Maher thinks he should be impeached for lying about the size of that perch.
From Bart at 4:00PM:
ReplyDelete"Look it up yourself. Even the press has admitted this."
In other words, it hasn't been legally tested, and there's no case law supporting it.
The latter would have been a more honest response, Bart.
The latter would have been a more honest response, Bart.
ReplyDeleteWhich is exactly what it wasn't given.
I hate Bart because he's dishonest and stupid, not because he is a Bush cultist.
AJ said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 2:53PM: "The President has absolute legal authority to classify and declassify information."
yankeependragon said...And this has been legally tested? Please quote the exact case and reproduce its ruling ad nauseum.
Bart: Look it up yourself. Even the press has admitted this.
Classic fact-free response.
OK, here the what I found in 5 minutes on Google.
Experts: Tactic Would Be Legal but Unusual
By Michael A. Fletcher
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 7, 2006; Page A08
Legal experts say that President Bush had the unquestionable authority to approve the disclosure of secret CIA information to reporters...
Experts said the power to classify and declassify documents in the federal government flows from the president and is often delegated down the chain of command. In March 2003, Bush signed an executive order delegating declassification authority to Cheney.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/06/AR2006040601806.html
Are you people helpless to do anything for yourselves? Oh, I forgot, you are the children of the left...
Bart,
ReplyDeleteGuess you read that whole article.
Guess you noticed that no case law was cited.
Guess you noticed that the only "legal experts" cited in the article were formerly the general counsels for the CIA and NSA.
Too funny.
"Experts say"
ReplyDeleteJeffrey H. Smith, a Washington lawyer who formerly served as general counsel for the CIA.
Let's have a look at what this expert says about current events:
Jeffrey H. Smith, former CIA general counsel (“On Hill, Anger and Calls for Hearing Greet News of Stateside Surveillance,” Washington Post, 1/17/06)
“These programs always have a way of being abused, of expanding beyond the purpose for which they were created. If the president believed it, he could have gotten authority to do it in the Patriot Act. By avoiding that course, in so doing, he may ultimately wind up eroding the very power he seeks to assert.”
Glenn, with all due respect, you need to start researching what you write. You are wrong in saying that we don't even pretend to capture/kill high-ranking Al Qaeda anymore. You either know this and are lying, or do not know this because you do not research what you say.
ReplyDeleteWe have actually just recently captured a high-ranking Al Qaeda figure in Iraq. See here http://rwmuckrakers.eponym.com/blog/_archives/2006/5/15/1959304.html
In any case, I think it takes away from your credibility. I think you'd probably agree.
IANAL, but it seems clear that just because Libby's team wants the trial to be about Valerie Plame doesn't change what he's on trial for.
ReplyDeleteThe right move for Fitz, IMO, would be to not allow the Libby team to muddy the waters.
This doesn't mean there wasn't any national harm to the releasing of Plame's name. It just means it's not relevant to the Libby trial and so why let the prosecution bring it in as a defense? Sounds like smart lawyering to me..
Hey Bart, better children of the left than unquestioning followers of a court of idiots, cowards, and criminals.
ReplyDeleteYou're probably incapable of realizing that you-all by yourself-prove over and over Glenn's earlier posts about the cult like mentality of the Bushies and their immunity to logic and reason.
I work with people like you and I've learned that they are too misinformed and militant to argue with. Bush says it or the GOP says it and it's truth by God.
Don't you ever wonder why your party constantly panders to and requires the support of the ignorant and religious fundamentalists steeped in superstition?
Legal experts say that President Bush had the unquestionable authority to approve the disclosure of secret CIA information to reporters
ReplyDeletebart quotes the Post, omitting
but they add that the leak was highly unusual and amounted to using sensitive intelligence data for political gain.
So in other words it was a perfecly legal ratf--king.
Your tax dollars at work. Very nice argument for raising taxes.
ReplyDeleteIraq Sunnis accuse US of "atrocity" over raids
BAGHDAD, May 15 (Reuters) - Iraq's main Sunni religious grouping accused U.S. forces on Monday of killing 25 civilians in raids near Baghdad in the past two days, rejecting the U.S. account that only suspected insurgents had died....
The Sunni association accused U.S. forces of attacking civilian houses and killing people as they tried to flee.
It said 25 people were killed in Latifiya, 40 km (25 miles) south of Baghdad, on Saturday and Sunday....
It said people ran away from their houses to seek protection but that U.S. forces followed them and killed them.
PhD9-- Unfortunately, that's not what I cited. I cited a different blog that linked here: http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?catid=138&ch=0&newsid=87730
ReplyDeleteThis is a Bulgarian news service, and it is citing the Iraqi News Agency. Though sad that the Washington Post and The New York Times have refused to report it, I'd like to know what your basing your criticism of the Bulgarian news service on.
"The President has absolute legal authority to classify and declassify information."
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid you're losing this one in court, Bart.
There are explicit procedures for declassification of documents. As far as I can tell, the president didn't follow those procedures.
By the way, the court I'm referring to is the court of public opinion. The public has a sense of improper behavior. Even if Bush could have legitimately declassified the documents, there's a sense of something not on the up and up.
Just like Rove and Plamegate. Even if Rove broke no law, people know it stinks to high heaven.
I'm sure you're familar with this saying attributed to Abraham Lincoln:
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
The public has a sense of when they are being played for fools. Bush is running into this a brick wall.
bart said:
ReplyDeleteDepends what you mean by "monitoring?" You need a warrant to surveil the contents of the call. You don't need one for simple call records.
Not true, bart. Call records still require a warrant.
Perhaps you mean the President's authorization to give portions of the NIE concerning Iraq's attempt to obtain uranium from Niger? The President has absolute legal authority to classify and declassify information.
For the record, Iraq did not obtain uranium from Niger. Say it with me, bart: Joe Wilson was right.
But let's move on, because you didn't answer my question- do you consider President Bush to be a 'leaker'?
I agree the President has the power to declassify, but there is a process that even he must go through, which he apparently skipped. I'd like the President to explain why.
Let's not pretend that the President declassified the entire NIE in a massive press conference for public consumption. A staffer gave some (misleading) bits of the NIE to a handful of reporters. That doesn't sound like a normal President going through the normal declassification process. I'd like the President to explain why these bits of the NIE deserved such special treatment.
But I'd also like your opinion, bart. Is the President going straight to the press in order to score political points an act of 'leaking' in your opinion? If not, why not?
They are actually debating his impeachment over this issue.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking for myself, I required lying about a war, loss of an entire American city, and widespread violations of civil rights before I considered impeachment even reasonable to discuss.
Just last week, these people thought anyone who disagreed with The Deciderer was a terr'ist sympathizer.
Nothing has happened in the week since to provoke this change of heart. More than anything, I think this bespeaks how high the gain is set on these people, that without provocation they will start screaming "impeach!".
I'd like to know what your basing your criticism of the Bulgarian news service on.
ReplyDeleteI was judging the veracity of the story by the company it keeps.
A line comes to my mind, and I can't remember from where, but it seems to describe the Neocon camp these days:
ReplyDelete"You will fall upon each other like wolves"
"I was judging the veracity of the story by the company it keeps." -phd9
ReplyDeleteLuckily for you, phd9, I don't apply that same standard to every article that appears here.
If that article still doesn't satisfy you, at the end of April of this year, the Iraqi government reports that US and Iraqi troops killed Humadi al-Takhi. You can read about it from a good liberal, American source here: http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/04/28/iraq_says_troops_killed_senior_al_qaeda_leader/
Now shut up and admit Greenwald was wrong.
The Dog barked:
ReplyDeleteI've never made a racist statement here or anywhere else.
Followed three sentences later by:
In times past when a superior culture and technology came into contact with an inferior culture and technology the inferior culture and technology ceased to exist. That was the morality of the times. However, unlike the people of color outside the USA who still to this day enslave, murder, and rape their brothers, white/western civilization grew out of this and voluntarily gave up such ways.
Well, it certainly didn't take long.
Anon says:
ReplyDeleteIANAL, but it seems clear that just because Libby's team wants the trial to be about Valerie Plame doesn't change what he's on trial for.
Nicteis says:
Unstated, because it is apparent to the dullest observer, is that the defense wants to go fishing for that information, because it will help them obstruct the follow-on case into the leaking charges themselves.
This is just sad. The high dudgeon of compromised national security (hard to believe isn't it...) has devolved into two guys that have missed the bus and don't know it yet. Has anyone here mentioned the lineup of witnesses to Wilson being the ultimate outer yet? Heh.
Glenn, I haven't read through all the comments, so perhaps someone else has already noted this. I recall sometime in January listening to someone from either the administration or the RNC (wish I could remember who it was) saying that they were planning on making immigration the central issue for this election year. It stuck in my mind, because at the time no one was talking about it, and I recall thinking to myself "Immigration?? That's the dumbest thing I've heard. Who cares about immigration? How do they think this is a burnng issue?"
ReplyDeleteAnd then, lo and behold, they start pumping out these stories on the TV talk shows, and republicans start running around squawking about what a huge problem this is, etc. And pretty soon, they've created a "problem" out of thin air. And next thing you know, we've got people demonstrating in the streets.
The weird irony is, this is a "crisis" they completely manufactured as a cynical election year ploy to rev up the base, and yet they seem totally unprepared with any kind of game plan, much less one they can all agree on.
Very mystifying, really.
Bart -
ReplyDeleteYou will please note I asked you if your assertion had been legally tested (I should have specified "in Court") and if you would please quote the relevent case ruling.
You decision to instead base your argument upon the untried claims of a staff writer to the Washington Post says a great deal, both about your reading skills and your opinion of the Law in this regard.
The one thing that I wonder about, now that the conservatives have turned on Fearless Leader, is how calculated all of this is. Just a month or so ago Mr. Greenwald was wondering how the conservatives would unhitch themselves from W's wagon. Well, here it is. He is no longer the leader of the conservative movement. They rode him for six years, now they will throw him under the bus and look for the next standard bearer.
ReplyDeleteIn sports they say that a great coach knows how to build a team and how to take it apart. I think that might be what we're seeing now. I hope I'm wrong, or that they screw this up somehow, but I can't help but think that this is a cynical move to distance themselves from all of W's failures.
Without addressing a specific issue being questioned here, Bart, I am really curious about something.
ReplyDeleteYou really don't see any smoke here? As in, "Where there's smoke..."? The misleading public comments, the lack of WMD's (I have seen your link with the reference to "Special Ammunition," and find it, in its stark solitude, wanting), the completely incongruous variety of reasons offered before and after the invasion of Iraq, the seeming lack of focus on concrete measures to secure our borders, the rumblings of "financial mismanagement" (at best) and outright theft (at worst) wrt to the Haliburton contracts in Iraq, the lack of accountability, the complete and utter denial of any need for any outside oversight by any other branch of government -
I don't find you especially objectionable, and I often think you are sincere and really believe the things you say (althought there are times...), but I wonder if you have put on your lawyer's suit and tie for the administration in your own head. Because there are an awful lot of indications of wrong doing here, and I can't believe that someone as devoted to the pursuit of winning the arguments as you seem to be here wouldn't want to see some of these points investigated. It is probably this which more than anything else has turned me against this administration - their insistence on not adhering to the oversight of the other branches of government is absolutely appalling to me - and I wonder why it is not to you? Do you really have that much faith in Karl Rove and Dick Cheney to comply with the letter and spirit of the law that you are willing to abjure yourself of your right to know what the hell they are doing, even if only through representatives?
I was just wondering.
Re:
ReplyDeleteNow shut up and admit Greenwald was wrong.
Seems impossible to do both.
Re: Shooter
Has anyone here mentioned the lineup of witnesses to Wilson being the ultimate outer yet?
Reference please? I think this has been debunked numerous times but if Shooter has new information, let's have a look.
I made up a bumper sticker that's been getting mostly 'honks of support' with only the occasional 'finger' from the 'Kool-Aid' drinkers. (By the way that's I call 'blind Bush-supporters'.)
ReplyDeleteLOYALTY TO BUSH IS TREASON TO AMERICA
Feel free to copy it and pass it on!
"So there you have it. Not only does it not matter if the Valerie Plame Wilson leak did any damage, or no damage at all. It doesn’t even matter if Wilson even worked for the CIA. What Patrick Fitzgerald set out to investigate, the alleged politically motivated, deliberate exposure of a covert CIA agent, no longer matters."
ReplyDeleteFitzgerold, as others have noted here, is focused entirely on the charges of purjury and obstruction that arose for an investigation into the outing of Plame. His lazerlike focus and integrity is inspiring and in great contrast to Ken Star's circus show. The only thing that that quote is right about is the fact that the outing and Plames status mean nothing anymore WITH REGARD TO LIBBYS CASE. Outside of libbys case they still are significant if you care about national security and the rule of law. Weather or not anyone else will be charged with outing of Plame (The fact that she was outed is an undisputed fact outside of right-wing-osphere) remains to be seen. To suggest that Fitzgerald meant that Plames outing was not important is pure fantacy/comedy.
I still get a kick out of the Willson outed his wife line! That is seriously funny. p Sane people actually entertain that Idea? Well, come to think of it, I guess it could happen. Just the other day I forgot that my girlfriend was home and ended up beating the crap out of her cause I thought she was an intruder!
AJ said...
ReplyDeleteBart,
Guess you read that whole article.
Guess you noticed that no case law was cited.
Guess you noticed that the only "legal experts" cited in the article were formerly the general counsels for the CIA and NSA.
Too funny.
OK, you are free to find me any legal authority holding that the President does not have the power to declassify information.
Good luck.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIANAL, but it seems clear that just because Libby's team wants the trial to be about Valerie Plame doesn't change what he's on trial for.
The right move for Fitz, IMO, would be to not allow the Libby team to muddy the waters.
Fitz wants to introduce evidence of the alleged CIA leak, including a variety of press reports, in this perjury trial. In other words, he wants to use the implication that Libby blew Plame's cover without having to actually prove this.
Libby's attorney was more than justified in attacking this tactic and the judge also appeared to demand an explanation from the prosecution.
Eyes wide open said...
ReplyDeleteYour tax dollars at work. Very nice argument for raising taxes.
Iraq Sunnis accuse US of "atrocity" over raids
BAGHDAD, May 15 (Reuters) - Iraq's main Sunni religious grouping accused U.S. forces on Monday of killing 25 civilians in raids near Baghdad in the past two days, rejecting the U.S. account that only suspected insurgents had died....
The Sunni association accused U.S. forces of attacking civilian houses and killing people as they tried to flee.
It said 25 people were killed in Latifiya, 40 km (25 miles) south of Baghdad, on Saturday and Sunday....
It said people ran away from their houses to seek protection but that U.S. forces followed them and killed them.
The KIA were al Qaeda, including one of the most wanted al Qaeda leaders in Iraq.
Why should any of us give a rats ass about what the Sunni who sheltered these animals think?
Devoman said...
ReplyDelete"The President has absolute legal authority to classify and declassify information."
I'm afraid you're losing this one in court, Bart.
Here is Professor Cass Sunstein's breakdown of this power...
April 09, 2006
Presidential Declassification of Previously Classified Material
Many issues are raised by the claim, by "Scooter" Libby, that President Bush declassified and thus authorized disclosure of previously classified material relating to the question whether Iraq had, or was seeking, weapons of mass destruction. Some of these issues have long-term as well as short-term interest, so it is worthwhile to try to sort them out.
It appears to be true that the President has the legal authority to declassify classified materials however he chooses. This conclusion is supported by dicta in Department of Navy v. Egan, 484 US 518 (1988), and it is consistent with the historical fact that classification and declassification decisions have been made by the President. (On the relevance of historical facts, see Justice Frankfurter's separate opinion in The Steel Seizure Case.) To be sure, Congress might have the power to limit the President's power to classify and declassify (though the President is likely to resist any such limitation on constitutional grounds) -- but no such limitation appears to be in place.
It is also true that the President could, by executive order, impose substantive and procedural limits on declassification decisions by the entire executive branch, including himself. But the currently governing order, E.O. 13292 (amending E.O. 12958, as amended), seems to be best read not to limit the President's own declassification authority. There are some wrinkles here. See in particular section 3.1(b), which notes, "In some exceptional cases, however, the need to protect [classified] information may be outweighed by the public interest in disclosure of the information, and in these cases the information should be declassified." This section goes on to refer to the decision of the "agency head or the senior agency official," but the reference should probably be understood in the context of ultimate presidential control of classification and declassification decisions....
Posted by sunstein at 03:15 PM in The Plame Investigation | Permalink
http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/4631865
From Bart at 8:00PM:
ReplyDelete"OK, you are free to find me any legal authority holding that the President does not have the power to declassify information."
Nice try. As was noted earlier, there are procedures for declassifying sensitive data. The question is can the President do so unilaterally, which is what the Administration's many apologists claim. Simple common sense would argue otherwise.
But that presupposes the Administration puts the safety of the country and its citizens over its own aggrandizement and survival, doesn't it.
From Bart at 8:07PM:
ReplyDelete"The KIA were al Qaeda, including one of the most wanted al Qaeda leaders in Iraq."
You have clear evidence of this assertion, yes?
"Why should any of us give a rats ass about what the Sunni who sheltered these animals think?"
A matter of simple common sense, perhaps? Hardly a decent way to win hearts and minds.
Bob herbert today said:
ReplyDeleteIn the dark days of the Depression, Franklin Roosevelt counseled Americans to avoid fear. George W. Bush is his polar opposite. The public's fear is this president's most potent political asset. Perhaps his only asset.
Mr. Bush wants ordinary Americans to remain in a perpetual state of fear — so terrified, in fact, that they will not object to the steady erosion of their rights and liberties, and will not notice the many ways in which their fear is being manipulated to feed an unconscionable expansion of presidential power.
If voters can be kept frightened enough of terrorism, they might even overlook the monumental incompetence of one of the worst administrations the nation has ever known.
Four marines drowned Thursday when their 60-ton tank rolled off a bridge and sank in a canal about 50 miles west of Baghdad. Three American soldiers in Iraq were killed by roadside bombs the same day. But those tragic and wholly unnecessary deaths were not the big news. The big news was the latest leak of yet another presidential power grab: the administration's collection of the telephone records of tens of millions of American citizens.
The Bush crowd, which gets together each morning to participate in a highly secret ritual of formalized ineptitude, is trying to get its creepy hands on all the telephone records of everybody in the entire country. It supposedly wants these records, which contain crucial documentation of calls for Chinese takeout in Terre Haute, Ind., and birthday greetings to Grandma in Talladega, Ala., to help in the search for Osama bin Laden.
Hey, the president has made it clear that when Al Qaeda is calling, he wants to be listening, and you never know where that lead may turn up.
The problem (besides the fact that the president has been as effective hunting bin Laden as Dick Cheney was in hunting quail) is that in its fearmongering and power-grabbing the Bush administration has trampled all over the Constitution, the democratic process and the hallowed American tradition of government checks and balances.
Short of having them taken away from us, there is probably no way to fully appreciate the wonder and the glory of our rights and liberties here in the United States, including the right to privacy.
The Constitution and the elaborate system of checks and balances were meant to protect us against the possibility of a clownish gang of small men and women amassing excessive power and behaving like tyrants or kings. But the normal safeguards have not been working since the Bush crowd came to power, starting with the hijacked presidential election in 2000.
After the Sept. 11 attacks, all bets were off. John Kennedy once said, "The United States, as the world knows, will never start a war." But George W. Bush, employing an outrageous propaganda campaign ("Shock and awe," "We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud"), started an utterly pointless war in Iraq that he still doesn't know how to win or how to end.
If you listen to the Bush version of reality, the president is all powerful. In that version, we are fighting a war against terrorism, which is a war that will never end. And as long as we are at war (forever), there is no limit to the war-fighting powers the president can claim as commander in chief.
So we've kidnapped people and sent them off to be tortured in the extraordinary rendition program; and we've incarcerated people at Guantánamo Bay and elsewhere without trial or even the right to know the charges against them; and we're allowing the C.I.A. to operate super-secret prisons where God-knows-what-all is going on; and we're listening in on the phone calls and reading the e-mail of innocent Americans without warrants; and on and on and on.
The Bushies will tell you that it is dangerous and even against the law to inquire into these nefarious activities. We just have to trust the king.
Well, I give you fair warning. This is a road map to totalitarianism. Hallmarks of totalitarian regimes have always included an excessive reliance on secrecy, the deliberate stoking of fear in the general population, a preference for military rather than diplomatic solutions in foreign policy, the promotion of blind patriotism, the denial of human rights, the curtailment of the rule of law, hostility to a free press and the systematic invasion of the privacy of ordinary people.
There are not enough pretty words in all the world to cover up the damage that George W. Bush has done to his country. If the United States could look at itself in a mirror, it would be both alarmed and ashamed at what it saw
Q: What is a 29% President to do?"
ReplyDeleteA: Talk about doing a lot of big things, do a few little things and stop doing them after the mid-terms.
Bartster,
ReplyDeleteLet me get this straight.
Your contention is that legal experts are in agreement that the president has the power to unilaterally declassify material without following any bureaucratic procedures or consulting with any member of the intelligence community.
And that he can do this for any reason whatsoever.
And you want me to find a legal expert who disagrees with that?
That about right?
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 8:00PM: "OK, you are free to find me any legal authority holding that the President does not have the power to declassify information."
Nice try. As was noted earlier, there are procedures for declassifying sensitive data. The question is can the President do so unilaterally, which is what the Administration's many apologists claim. Simple common sense would argue otherwise.
I'll take that as an admission that you have no such authority.
Cass Sunstein is not an apologist for the WH. He gave you the authority.
Where can I send you the bill for this latest bit of legal research?
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 8:07PM: "The KIA were al Qaeda, including one of the most wanted al Qaeda leaders in Iraq."
You have clear evidence of this assertion, yes?
The Battle of Yusifayah
By Bill Roggio
Yusifiyah is yet again the focus of Coalition raids. Unnamed Coalition forces, most likely Task Force 145, slugged it out with al-Qaeda in the city on Sunday. Multinational Forces - Iraq reported the strike forces killed “more than 25 terrorists, detained four, destroyed three safe houses and a vehicle loaded with weapons and ammunition.” Task Force 145 also took some casualties, as the defending al-Qaeda forces were able to shoot down a helicopter, killing two Americans in the process. While the military hasn't identified the type of helicopter shot down, it is likely based on the casualties that this was a OH-58 Kiowa Warrior, which is used for armed reconnaissance and has a crew of two.
Evan Kohlmann noted that Zarqawi's most recent videotape contained footage of terrorists armed with MANDPADS (man-portable surface-to-air missiles). As there have been relatively few shoot downs of helicopters and airplanes compared to Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation, I speculated last month al-Qaeda's access to the weapons is limited, and the anti-aircraft missiles have been distributed to protect senior al-Qaeda command elements. Zarqawi was believed to have been in Yusifiyah and witnessed a Task Force 145 raid in early April, and one of his guards was killed while preparing to fire a surface to air missile.
There is also the possibility the Army helicopter was shot down by an RPG (rocket propelled grenade) aimed at the tail fin, however this is a more difficult shot as it requires the helicopter to be in a hover and the shooter is exposes to fire. Al-Qaeda first used this technique on October 3, 1993 against U.S. helicopters in the imfamous “Black Hawk Down” incident in Mogadishu, Somalia. Earlier this month, a British Lynx helicopter was shot down in Basra using the same technique.
An Apache helicopter was shot down in Yusifayah on April 1 and numerous raids have been conducted on al-Qaeda hideouts and safe houses in the city.
May 15, 2006 12:07 PM
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Bart: "Why should any of us give a rats ass about what the Sunni who sheltered these animals think?"
A matter of simple common sense, perhaps? Hardly a decent way to win hearts and minds.
al Qaeda is a fascist death cult. What makes you think sparing them will change their hearts and minds?
AJ said...
ReplyDeleteBartster,
Let me get this straight.
Your contention is that legal experts are in agreement that the president has the power to unilaterally declassify material without following any bureaucratic procedures or consulting with any member of the intelligence community.
And that he can do this for any reason whatsoever.
And you want me to find a legal expert who disagrees with that?
That about right?
No, I want legal authority like case law or at least a well respected professor. Some leftwingnut lawyer from Kos or the like is a waste of time.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThe KIA were al Qaeda, including one of the most wanted al Qaeda leaders in Iraq.<
ReplyDeleteOf course, that's by definition. If they were KIA then they must have been al Qaeda because otherwise they wouldn't be dead.
I've always been bothered by the wholesale use of the term "terrorist" as well. If we define a terrorist as someone who has committed a terrorist act, then there are surprisingly few of them. If we define it a someone who would commit a terrorist act, If by chance someone handed him a bomb belt, then we have a much larger number. If, on the other hand we define it as anyone we have killed in Iraq, then we can be much more comfortable with the notion that THERE SURE ARE A LOT OF THEM!
The Battle of Yusifayah
ReplyDeleteBy Bill Roggio
I just finished wading into Bill Roggio's musings.
The anon. "Vermin" guy also links approvingly.
From Bart at 8:50PM:
ReplyDelete"I'll take that as an admission that you have no such authority."
Funny boy.
"Cass Sunstein is not an apologist for the WH. He gave you the authority."
Odd, I read Professor Sustein's article as simply confirming the President's affirmative (but not unilateral) authority to declassify sensitive material.
"Where can I send you the bill for this latest bit of legal research?"
What legal research? All you've done is toot a out-of-tune horn again.
Nick says:
ReplyDeleteYou really don't see any smoke here? As in, "Where there's smoke..."? The misleading public comments, the lack of WMD's (I have seen your link with the reference to "Special Ammunition," and find it, in its stark solitude, wanting), the completely incongruous variety of reasons offered before and after the invasion of Iraq,
While this was addressed to Bart, it's the second sincere question about the disconnect between thoughtful people and supporting Bush. Indeed the list of headlines is long, and "scandals" plentiful. I've actually had people demand to know just one worthwhile thing Bush has done. Let me start with the short answer.
* It turns out that a special proscecutor has found misdeeds regarding the President and the IRS. Enemies have been harrassed but the report contains 120 pages of blank paper where the evidence would be.
* The President also bombed Iraq without considering civilian casualties
* The President used the FBI to spy on people, and began a program of government eavesdropping on the internet.
* The President cut taxes to fatcats.
* The President changed welfare to be so restrictive that half the people on welfare are no longer eligible.
* Worst of all the President sent the militrary out on no less than 60 missions around the world.
That President is also the most beloved in modern time. How can that be? Selective perception and a sympathetic media.
Turn it around and every sin forgiven Clinton, will live in infamy forever for Bush. They aren't all that different in actions, but the anger of losing the 2000 election will never die. It will also color perception for a group of people forever, just like Nixon and Vietnam. Lest you think perception is not stronger than reality, consider the number of people just on this blog that still think Bush is eavesdropping even thugh it's been well established that wasn't the parameter of the program. There is literally nothing Bush could do to change that negative opinion.
I'll stick my neck out a little farther and tell you why I still support Bush's actions toward Iraq. I don't know your take on recent history, but before we invaded, nearly every person on the planet thought Saddam had WMD's. that included heads of state and their intelligence services, even the ones that were against us going in. Even Blix thought Saddam wasn't being truthful.
Think about that.
We thought Saddam had, or was near the ability to kill millions here. The international community agreed.
Whatever you think of the evidence now, that was the feeling then, and we had just been shocked to find that oceans no longer protected us from attack.
As President, what do you do? You could gamble that Saddam either didn't have the WMD's or wouldn't use them; but what if that was wrong. Hundreds, thousands, millions could die. This isn't TV, this is real life that the blood and gore of 9/11 made immediate and personal. If you are responsible for 300 million people, what do you do?
Bush decided not to gamble on Saddam's good intentions, and took the hard road to see what we were actually faced with. From my point of view, Bush has consistently taken the road he thought best without regard to the slings and arrows of naysayers. In my opinion that takes much more guts than going with the flow.
Fortunately the conventional wisdom was wrong. No obvious WMD's.
Now, I'm sure that's plenty of reason alone to hate Bush, for a lot of people, but consider this..... Everything we now know about the intelligence failings and no WMD's is possible only because Bush decided not to take a chance with our lives. Otherwise we would still be wondering when the next attack was coming.
The troll HWSNBN steps in it once again:
ReplyDeleteIf by "confidential sources," these reporters mean intelligence agents committing felony crimes by leaking classified materials, this sounds like a criminal investigation.
OIC. So we're talking "criminal investigation" here? Well, then you need probable cause and a warrant to do the snooping. Glad the troll made that clear....
But the troll marches determinedly on:
The government does not require a warrant under the 4th Amendment to obtain telephone records.
It needs some kind of court paperwork, a subpoena or such.
But I telll you what: let's see if Dubya actually tries any prosecutions. So far, the maladministration has been almost criminally incompetent at prosecuting even those that stand up in court and say "I am al Qaeda...."
Tell it to the judge, Dubya!
Cheers,
From Bart at 8:54PM:
ReplyDelete"al Qaeda is a fascist death cult. What makes you think sparing them will change their hearts and minds?"
I believe you were originally asking why we should be more mindful of the Sunni's attitudes towards us, unless of course you're implying they're one in the same?
Well, ignoring your confusing Aum Shinrykyo with Al Qaeda (which is a bit like saying the Christian Reconstructionist movement is the same as Operation: Rescue), I grant attempting to change the minds of those already involved with the network is fundamentally a waste of time.
By contrast, the Sunnis and other disaffected minorities in the region may still be open to convincing the United States isn't out to completely obliterate them or their culture. It would help if our leadership actually figured that out and maybe developed a coherent strategy to encourage this.
I won't hold my breath, either with the White House or you.
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteGlenn, with all due respect, you need to start researching what you write. You are wrong in saying that we don't even pretend to capture/kill high-ranking Al Qaeda anymore. You either know this and are lying, or do not know this because you do not research what you say.
We have actually just recently captured a high-ranking Al Qaeda figure in Iraq. See [here]
Ummm, who? Never heard of him. Oh. Yeah, right. He was the 'Number three man in al Qaeda'. That's right. The twenty-seventh 'Number Three' we've captured so far.....
Now calm down and suck down a nice glass fo Kool-Aid.
Cheers,
There were many caviats to the intelligence that bush and co. used to justify the invasion of Iraq. They ignored the caviats. The intelligence was not faulity. Bush erred on the side of protecting us? Against Iraq who had no ties to 9-11? How about actually looking for Osama Bin Laden, you know the supposed 9-11 mastermind that bush no longer thinks about much? The level of creative thinking that is required to support bush in this area is staggering. And when has an ocean ever protected us? They did not in WWII. Ever herd of an inter-continental balistic missle?
ReplyDeleteShooter, you can assert all you want that before we illegally invaded Iraq "nearly every person" believed Hussein had WMD, but that's not true...I didn't believe it. Not because I'm an expert, but because there was PLENTY of public talk by those who seriously doubted any claims to Hussein having WMD or any capacity to produce them, as well as discussion of the dubious nature of the Bush Administration's intelligence analysis. The terms "cherry-picking" and "stove-piping" were heard BEFORE we attacked Iraq. These contrary voices were heard on radio talk shows and featured on various internet websites. Scott Ritter, of course, is the most prominent among them. You're quoting Blix selectively, as well...early on in his mission to Iraq, he complained about the recalcitrance of Hussein and his people in letting them have access to sites, but by the time Bush decided he JUST COULDN'T HOLD IT ANY LONGER AND HE HAD TO BLOW!, Blix was reporting that the Iraqis were giving the inspectors free access to any site they requested to see, and they were not giving the Iraqis advance notice of which sites they might ask to see. His reporting, up to the time he and his inspectors were told to withdraw from Iraq, was that NO WMD or indications of them were to be found. They were there for four months before their mission was aborted prematurely. You ask, what would I have done, as President, in a crisis I had manufactured by fear mongering about Iraq? Well, I would have done as Bush did...I would have attacked before continued inspections by the UN teams could conclude there was no WMD, no threat, no need for an invasion. If I were a prudent President who truly meant it when I said "war was the last thing" I wanted, I would have allowed the inspectors time to complete their mission, I would have continued with any available means to contain Iraq until there was actual evidence which would support that Hussein had WMD and that he had the means and intent to use them against us.
ReplyDeleteBartorama,
ReplyDeleteWhat was that case law you provided in support of your position? The case law that supports the president's power to unilaterally declassify for any reason? Cause the Sunstein stuff doesn't get you there, as Yankee pointed out.
It's really cute how you decide that experts are people who agree with your position.
Cute but not compelling since all those ad hominem arguments do is demonstrate your inability to deal with the substance of legal arguments made by those you label "leftwingnuts".
shooter:
ReplyDelete2 points very quickly.
1: "Clinton did it too" is NOT a defense. We don't care what Clinton did (except of course, that balancing the budget thing, I thought that was kinda cool)
2: What our governmenmt knew compared to what it chose to tell us left a gap you could drive an aircraft carrier through. (which coincidently is just what we did with it.) Cheney was still spouting off about Atta in Prague MONTHS after it had been debunked,