A few items of note:
(1) The formal release date for How Would a Patriot Act? is this Monday, May 15. Amazon and the other online retailers should begin shipping the book to those who pre-ordered, and it should start appearing in stores this week. The promotional and marketing campaign for the book will start in earnest this week as well. The book is back in the Top 100 on Amazon and has been rising steadily on Barnes & Noble again.
Yesterday, The San Francisco Chronicle published a lengthy article on its front page which profiled the book, this blog and the rising influence of the blogosphere generally. This is obviously the perfect time for the book's release for many reasons. I genuinely believe that these issues of executive power and the administration's systematic lawbreaking and fear-mongering are ripe for real public discussion and understanding. I'm very excited about the opportunity to talk about these issues as far and wide as I possibly can.
(2) Following-up on the post from yesterday regarding that highly suspect insta-poll from The Washington Post which purported to show that most Americans favor the newly disclosed NSA program, Jane Hamsher details that much of the corruption of that poll is accounted for by the standard practices of the Post's pollster, Richard Morin, who has a history of producing skewed, pro-Republican polling data.
(3) One aspect of the new NSA story which merits significantly more attention is just how revealing and intrusive the information is which is being collected and stored. Knowing the identity of every single person whom you call and from whom you receive calls can be almost as illuminating and privacy-destroying as listening in on the calls themselves. And as Kevin Drum points out, this claim that the data provided by the phone companies does not reveal the identity of the participants on the call is simply frivolous. There are so many ways for the Government to discover the identity of the callers by knowing their telephone numbers that this defense is not even serious.
I'd be willing to bet that a very sizable portion of the American public speaks with people they don't want others knowing about. To put into the Government's hands the ability to know the identity of every person with whom we speak on the telephone is so dangerous and intrusive that it's hard to believe most Americans will glibly give up this level of privacy to the Government. We'll see.
(4) Apparently, the number 29% does wonders for enabling politicians to find some courage and resolve:
Senate Democrats intend to use next week's confirmation hearings for a new C.I.A. director to press the Bush administration on its broad surveillance programs, engaging Republicans on national security grounds that have proved politically treacherous for Democrats in the aftermath of Sept. 11.
Gen. Michael V. Hayden, nominee to head C.I.A., reacted Friday after Senator Susan Collins said microphones were "eavesdropping" on them.
Lawmakers and senior Democratic officials say they believe a combination of Democratic gains on security issues and a loss of public confidence in President Bush gives them new strength to question the National Security Agency operations that the administration says are essential to preventing another domestic terror attack.
As a result, Democrats say they will not hesitate to aggressively question Mr. Bush's choice to head the Central Intelligence Agency, Gen. Michael V. Hayden, who is the former director of the N.S.A., at a hearing set for next Thursday.
"We have to raise the issues," said Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the Democratic leader, who met Friday with General Hayden. "The American people expect someone to do it. Certainly the administration is not doing it. We are all they've got."
Sen. Reid is typically less cautious and more combative than most of the caucus members he leads. Several months ago, I was on a conference call with him and ten or so bloggers. Reid's belief that the pro-Bush contingent in Washington is a criminal enterprise, corrupt to its core, struck me as very sincere. He also explained that he was going to have to leave the Senate some day one way or the other - because of retirement, electoral defeat, death -- and, as a result, he refused to back away from views he believed in due to some fear of losing an election. That, too, struck me as sincere.
I think that's what explains his willingness to be more combative. He isn't attached to his Senate seat, willing to do anything to cling to it, whereas most of his colleagues are. People who aren't attached to their little prizes are much more free to act on principle and conviction.
(5) When I read this article reporting on polling data that shows that Americans overwhelmingly believe that The Devil Bill Clinton did a better job than the Epic Savior Hero George Bush in every category of governance, I genuinely thought to myself that that article could really send many Bush followers into a state of serious mental depression, or worse.
It's one thing to have read almost every day that the vast majority of Americans dislike and disapprove of the Leader and that more and more Americans abandon him by the day. But to have to read that Americans overwhelmingly prefer Bill Clinton to George Bush in every area -- including foreign affairs (by an embarrassing margin of 56-32%), national security (46-42%), and on the question of "which man was more honest as president" (46-41%) -- must be truly difficult for those remaining Bush followers. And, indeed, it did lead one pro-Bush blogger, The Anchoress, to announce:
I’ve decided that if I’m going to keep blogging, I’m going to have to leave off writing or reading about politics for a little while, because it’s all making me sick. . . .
And so, for a while, I’m off the subject. We’ll talk sex, religion, baseball, opera and even - Lord help us - television. But to stay in the middle of the deleterious snakepit of politics…no…there be monsters.
I think for the summer, my little boat will sail in the other direction.
I actually think this is a serious danger for the Republicans this November. They have been so used to winning everything, being able to manipulate public opinion, using "the War" to generate support for everything they wanted. Now that none of it is working any longer, now that their standard tactics fail, their credibility is shattered, and their Grand Hero is exposed as a fraud -- as a weak, impotent, borderline-sad figure -- I think many of them will be so disillusioned and discouraged that they will simply want to tune politics out. For many people, it is simply (and understandably) depressing to have to read day after day that your views are being increasingly rejected by the country and your admired leader is disliked, distrusted and disapproved. One solution is to simply walk away from it altogether. That's what The Anchoress chose, and I think many Bush followers will choose the same.
UPDATE:
(6) Now that Americans have actually had time to hear about the newly disclosed NSA data-collecting program, a new poll from Newsweek shows that a majority is opposed:
Has the Bush administration gone too far in expanding the powers of the President to fight terrorism? Yes, say a majority of Americans, following this week’s revelation that the National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone records of U.S. citizens since the September 11 terrorist attacks. According to the latest NEWSWEEK poll, 53 percent of Americans think the NSA’s surveillance program “goes too far in invading people’s privacy,” while 41 percent see it as a necessary tool to combat terrorism.
Even a quarter of Republicans are against it:
According to the Newsweek poll, 73 percent of Democrats and 26 percent of Republicans think the NSA’s program is overly intrusive.
Worse for the White House -- but great for the country -- a lopsided majority think that the administration is attempting to sieze excess power:
Nonetheless, Americans think the White House has overstepped its bounds: 57 percent said that in light of the NSA data-mining news and other executive actions, the Bush-Cheney Administration has “gone too far in expanding presidential power.” That compares to 38 percent who think the Administration’s actions are appropriate.
I don't even recall seeing that question asked before, but it is very encouraging to see a majority of Americans answer this way. The country does not trust George Bush and is therefore unwilling to vest expanded power in his hands.
(7) Consistent with its desperate desire to avoid any judicial adjudication of the legality of its conduct, the Bush administration has once again invoked the "state secrets" doctrine, this time to attempt to force dismissal of the lawsuit against AT&T brought by the Electronic Frontier Foundation. That lawsuit alleges that AT&T violated various provisions in the law by collaborating with the NSA to allow the agency access to the telephone conversations and releated calling data of Americans without the warrants required by law.
As always, what the Bush administration fears most are judicial rulings as to whether its extremist policies are legal, precisely because it knows they aren't. In this case, it's the warrantless surveillance program they are attempting to shield from judicial adjudication, but they have played the same game with a whole host of other lawbreaking measures. It is precisely because they have thwarted any investigation into their conduct and any judicial review of it that it is so imperative that there be some mechanism for subjecting their behavior to meaningful scrutiny. Having Democrats obtain subpoena power in November is one to achieve that (h/t EJ in comments for both new items).
The shit is really going to hit the fan in the next few months/years. I don't know what we can do about it. Bush is backed into a corner with nothing to lose and impeachment is useless--it needs too many votes, it'll just put Cheney in office (or Dennis Hastert, or Ted Stevens, or...).
ReplyDeleteNo one can force him to cooperate with investigations, which means they will fail. He will attack Iran.
Jack Balkin at Balkinization explains all this in a lot more detail, if anyone has the stomach for reading it....
Glenn, you should remove that spam from "Sharon" (comment number two) quickly to establish a precedent that this site isn't worth spamming.
ReplyDeletepaul rosenberg said...
ReplyDeleteClinton v. Bush On Natural Disasters
A real eye-opener in the Clinton/Bush comparison is this:
That's nothing, Paul... From The Leiter Report group blog of academics In Texas... It sucks when Castro makes you look like a chump.
Responding to Hurricanes: Cuba vs. the United States
A propos our discussion of man-made disasters, this is rather striking:
Last September, a Category 5 hurricane battered the small island of Cuba with 160-mile-per-hour winds. More than 1.5 million Cubans were evacuated to higher ground ahead of the storm. Although the hurricane destroyed 20,000 houses, no one died.
What is Cuban President Fidel Castro's secret? According to Dr. Nelson Valdes, a sociology professor at the University of New Mexico, and specialist in Latin America, "the whole civil defense is embedded in the community to begin with. People know ahead of time where they are to go."
Glenn, I agree with Dave. Please remove Sharon's spam entry. Thanks
ReplyDeleteGlenn, I agree with Dave. Please remove Sharon's spam entry. Thanks
ReplyDeleteHere are two of the first of many Letters to the Editor of the NYT about the Surveillance Uproar From Coast to Coast which apparently took a detour around WAPO's offices because their polling didn't get around to calling any of these people (who gives WAPO the numbers to call when conducting their polls---AT&T?)
ReplyDeleteTo the Editor:
How much longer are the American people and our elected Congress going to sit by idly and watch our civil liberties, our rights to privacy and our Constiution be systematically torn apart by President Bush and his administration?
This latest in a series of efforts to undermine the very freedoms this country is based upon, all in the name of protecting the country against terrorism, should make us ashamed and scared.
It it time we all stood up and said "Don't lie to us agin, Mr. Presidnet. We're not going to take it anymore."
-Gail C. Weibray,
To the Editor:
The administration says it did not mine or "troll through" the phone calls of millions of Americans.
In fact, what it did was invade the house or persons of each of those Americans and steal their address books.
Tracing the ringing of milions of phones sure sounds like invasion of privacy to me.
-Fred Schachat
Here was the response to Fred and Gail and all the others who wrote in:
Dear Fred and Gail:
We appreciate your concerns. Sorry we cannot help you. Orin Kerr has already weighed in and it appears your civil liberties and rights to privacy are not being in the least violated.
This has been confirmed by the Washington Post so we really don't know what you are talking about.
Suggest you bone up on the pen register laws if you want to keep busy and perhaps use smoke signals next time if you wish to communicate anything you deem to be private.
Better luck next time.
Cordially,
The Bi-Partisan Buscho Versailles committee to re-elect. And re-elect. And re-elect. Ad nauseum.
I don't know if Glenn can remove sharon's post. She did it personally, it's not a spambot, so just ignore it.
ReplyDeletePaul said... Hmmm... 30% is mighty close to 31, 31, 20, the last three bad-news approval poll numbers for Bush. Could it be that they are hardwired into the White House, Borg-style?
ReplyDeleteBecause otherwise, well. "I just don't get it," doesn't begin to capture my sense of this disconnect. This is about as close as one could ever get to a perfect baseline test.
If 30% think that losing New Orleans was better than Clinton did wrt natural disasters, then they'd probably approve of Bush killing his wife on national TV.
"It was a clean shot," said Dexter Gordon, of Tulsa, Oklahoma. "Obviously, he puts in a lot of a time at the practice range."
Q: "But he strangled her."
Gordon: "Whatever."
This is what happens when you have the money (Scaife, etc.) to spread crypto-fascism to outright fascism and extremism (Regnery, think tanks, right wing radio)in a country that has free speech. We have much ground to regain and need to start fighting back, and never stop.
I get off on schadenfreude as much as the next anonymous poster, but it *really* cracks me up to see the right realizing that Bush isn't just impotent, but that he's a *loser* - because the cult of personality erected around him like a force field has always depended on two things: authority, and victory.
ReplyDeleteBush didn't have to do anything right, or good (which is how *most* politicians have to stay in power, through popular favor and approval); he just had to be The Man, and he just had to win. A string of disasters could redound only to the benefit of his friends, or he could lose a few battles, but once *both* begin to happen regularly, it divorces him from his supporters on a fundamental level: they need him to win, or at least maintain his tough-guy persona, and now that he can't do either, they're predictably dissatisfied with him, because he's not just giving them nothing, but he's ruining what they thought they had.
(this is also why Bush/Rove need Dems to fold on national security stuff (i.e., Hayden/NSA stuff/Iran), because now Bush can't even risk losing, because the possibility would puncture his aura of power - let's hope Dems realize this and fight, because part of Bush's strategy is to bluff, bluff, bluff, then change the rules so he never has to square off (e.g., vetoing *no* legislation, screwing with detainees so courts can't try them) with anyone who might beat him - and luckily for him/Rove, Dems have been as afraid to fight as he is, though for different reasons, in an oddly symbiotic fashion).
Dear Glenn,
ReplyDeleteI agree your book could not be coming out at a better time and that's why I called Leslie over at USA Today last week and asked her (I had tapes of some of her phone calls which a friend of mine at AT&T had been sweet enough to lend me) to come up with some story saying tens of millions of phone call records were being donated to the NSA by altruistic phone companies.
Here's the surprise. I just called her back and told her there was one highly interesting tape I had held back.
"Oh no!", she said. "What now?"
"Easy", I said. "We just want one more story coming out on Monday saying that every email and Internet search and post is also being turned over.
She reluctantly agreed (what's a girl to do?) so check out USA on Monday and let's see if she comes through.
It was nothing. Glad to oblige.
GOOD LUCK WITH THE BOOK AND THE TOUR!
I am so excited and I can't believe I am finally going to get to read How a Patriot Would Act!
-EWO
PS. Don't worry. I did give Leslie the original of those tapes but I kept a copy just in case we need her co-operation for your next book.
I especially agree with the part of the posting on The Anchoress. I occasionally visit freeperville just to get a feel for what that community is focused on and I have noticed that the number of reads for the stories they choose to feature (they had nothing about the NSA phone scandal at all) has dropped through the floor - where there used to be thousands of reads on every article now there are only hundreds, some even less than that. The number of comments has dropped precipitously and there are a lot of posts in the threads worrying about when the anti-RINOs are going to show up. There were also posts clearly from the opposition that were left up. It used to be that they fanatically policed against any views that didn't follow the party line.
ReplyDeleteThe freepers have been a strong part of the rightwing machine. If they are turning off and tuning out it is a good sign. In a perfect world they would realize how much has been screwed up by the politicians they supported and switch sides, but I guess they have chosen to crawl back under their rocks to mutter to themselves about liberals, gays and immigrants until it is safe to come back out.
The right wing is a herd movement and it is critically important to them to be a majority. With Bush at 29% after such a long period of low poll numbers it is sinking in that they may be outnumbered. They have a lot more difficulty pretending that their racist and homophobic positions are in line with the majority and they fear exposure and ridicule.
Geekmouth
Glenn:
ReplyDelete(3) One aspect of the new NSA story which merits significantly more attention is just how revealing and intrusive the information is which is being collected and stored. Knowing the identity of every single person whom you call and from whom you receive calls can be almost as illuminating and privacy-destroying as listening in on the calls themselves.
To start, this is a flat out lie. The USA Today reported that these records do not include the identity of the owner of either phone number or the persons actually using these numbers. So, you folks calling porn 900 numbers are safe.
Even if this allegation was true, 18 USC 121, Section 2709 requires the telecoms to provide the government with "the name, address, length of service, and local and long distance toll billing records of a person or entity" when requested by the FBI for counter terrorism investigations and this information may be shared with other government departments for that same purpose.
In sum, the government is entitled by law to the identity of the owners of the numbers to perform counter terrorism investigations, but it instead declined that information to protect your privacy.
Glenn, this is getting tiresome. Are you bothering to check your facts and the law before you make these allegations?
Chris said... and luckily for him/Rove, Dems have been as afraid to fight as he is, though for different reasons, in an oddly symbiotic fashion).
ReplyDeleteThis is precisely why some people were convinced America was a one party system years ago, with Republicans and Rebuplicans Lite. Democrats either do not get it, or they are complicit. I have no clue. It is mystifying. As Truman observed...
"Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for the real Republican all the time."
As Truman observed
Government does its "too secret to whisper" dance in court again on the back of a "renditioned" former prisoner by US operatives:
ReplyDeleteFor at least the fifth time in the past year, the Justice Department yesterday invoked the once rarely cited state secrets privilege to argue that a lawsuit alleging government wrongdoing should be dismissed without an airing, this time in the case of a German citizen seeking an apology and monetary compensation for having been wrongfully imprisoned by the CIA.
Assistant U.S. Attorney R. Joseph Sher said yesterday in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia that the government cannot confirm or deny the allegations made by Khaled al-Masri, who sources have said was held by the CIA for five months in Afghanistan. His allegations, Sher contended, "clearly involve clandestine activity abroad." Therefore, he said, "there is no way that the case can go forward without causing the damage to the national security."
Terrific article in the San Francisco Chronicle. Does anyone have the link to the 8 1/2 minute video the article mentions or has it been on this blog already?
ReplyDeleteThis article suggests that 200,000 Kalashnikovs sent by the US from Bosnia to Iraq may have simply been lost, perhaps comandeered by the "insurgency." On the other hand, it's possible that the guns were never meant for the Iraq army the US is building. Instead they were headed for the militias and death squads that news reports suggest the CIA and Pentagon are arming and putting in the field.
ReplyDeleteThe Pentagon has secretly shipped tens of thousands of small arms from Bosnia to Iraq in the past two years, using a web of private companies, at least one of which is a noted arms smuggler blacklisted by Washington and the UN.
According to a report by Amnesty International, which investigated the sales, the US government arranged for the delivery of at least 200,000 Kalashnikov machine guns from Bosnia to Iraq in 2004-05. But though the weaponry was said to be for arming the fledgling Iraqi military, there is no evidence of the guns reaching their recipient.
jay c: But it's nice to know you [Bart] at least cherish some illusion of protected anonymity.
ReplyDeleteI am still waiting for Bart and those like him to tell us when they voluntarily route all their phone calls, emails, and personal snail mail directly through the offices of the NSA.
Americans overwhelmingly believe that The Devil Bill Clinton did a better job than the Epic Savior Hero George Bush
ReplyDeleteYeah, right!
It's clear that Bush's temporary slump in the polls is due to the public perception that the administration has been dithering on immigration and on Iran thumbing its nose at us. Look for Bush to take bold action in both areas during the forthcoming weeks and you will see a dramatic turnaround.
ej:
ReplyDeleteThe WaPo and Newsweek are asking two different questions.
WaPo told the respondent what was involved in the program and asked whether they supported the program.
Newsweek intentionally did not describe the programs and then asked whether the programs were "too intrusive." This is akin to push polling. Given that maybe 10% of the respondents could accurately describe the programs given the lies told by the press and disinterest by the average person, the Newsweek poll is misleading to say the least.
However, these polls are not meant to inform, they are political tools.
Another Telco not playing along: TDS
ReplyDeleteTheir release:
TDS' Policy Concerning Customer Call Records
Date: May 11, 2006
For More Information Contact:
DeAnne Boegli
525 Junction Road
Madison, WI 53717
608-664-4428
Recent news reports have called attention to a program of the National Security Agency that has collected call records from major telephone carriers including Verizon, SBC/ATT and Bell South.
TDS has a strong policy to protect our customer records and is in fact mandated by the Communications Act , section 222 to protect your records, and we do so with great care. TDS would only assist law enforcement or government agencies when requested via a valid subpoena. When these requests are made we do comply with state and federal laws.
Calls placed outside of our network which connect to one of the carriers that do participate in this program may become part their database, we are unable to restrict this activity. TDS does not have any authority over the other Carriers that complete your call.
We have no further information regarding the NSA program.
Can you point out that the false use of the word 'anonomized' in reference to call detail data provided with our telephone number attached is disengenuous at best. OK, it's a LIE.
ReplyDeleteBart, re:
ReplyDeleteTo start, this is a flat out lie. The USA Today reported that these records do not include the identity of the owner of either phone number or the persons actually using these numbers.
Actually Glenn's statement is not a lie at all. Even though the reports are that only phone numbers were given to the NSA, reverse telephone lookups are ridiculously easy to do. Every police department in the country (as well as many other organizations) can do reverse telephone lookups.
Do you think Visa can't do a reverse telephone lookup on just about every adult in the country? If Visa and every police dept. can do it, how hard do you think it is for NSA?
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteIf your publisher is so willing, perhaps she would deliver a copy of your book to each and every member of Congress.
Might even want to try to make a big splash about it similar to the way FDL did with those famous "Rubber Stamps".
I wouldn't mind seeing a handoff of your book to Sen. Reid on the evening news!
The Anchoress expresses the feelings I had in November 2004 (albeit different reasons!). It is a very depressing feeling. What we all need to do is realize that for better or worse, we're citizens in this together. We shouldn't take political polls and defeats personally--but we shouldn't be afraid to reflect on the issues and policies and think independently without bias.
ReplyDeleteWhat partisan, knee-jerk responses does each of us give? I remember when I finally gave myself permission not to rationalize Clinton's indiscretions away--very liberating! The republicans need to free themselves of this horrible, horrible Administration's hubris and dictatorial ways.
Poor Bart
ReplyDeleteHis spin is getting more shrill & desperate as more people realize what an incompetent, draft-dodging, budget-busting ChickenHawk with Delusions of Grandeur President Jr really is at his corrupt core
Now, if President Jr is willing to say-UNDER OATH-and hooked up to a lie detector with a live TV audience, that our privacy is just as cherished to the President as his love of ever-expanding & unchecked Imperial Power, THEN maybe we'll have something to talk about
But as we all know, this President has a deep, pathological aversion to either himself or his Administration personnel being in a position of telling the truth unforced by any legal mandate
Sorry Bart, President Jr's numbers are only going to get worse, and all the fixed Diebold voting boxes and Karl Rove "Bash Gays" political strategy will NOT repair the too-tattered Administration come the November Elections
How sad it must be to belong to such a shrill & shrinking minority of those who have no problem with President Jr claiming unchecked political powers at the clear expense of our Constitution, while screaming bloody murder should someone like Hillary Clinton become President and use those same exact powers-established by W & a non-oversight loving Congress-in an attempt to crack down on gun crimes
What we'll be seeing in the runup to the 2008 elections-conditioned on the Dems taking back at least either the House or Senate-will be a GOP panic-inspired attempt to start rolling back these unConstitutional claims of Presidential power-after all, the GOP can't stand for allowing the same rules to apply to itself it insists applies to all others not of the GOP mob
What's weird to me is that I still feel much the same way The Anchoress does.
ReplyDeleteI can't fully enjoy the GOP's panicky fall becaue I have no confidence in the Democrats' ability to do anything about it.
It's like they're still so hypnotized by this President, for some reason, that they just can't see that the mob has turned against him.
And if only one kid stood up, pointed and said "Look! The clothes have no emperor!" (to coin a phrase), the spell would be broken.
But the Democrats are too busy sewing, and don't want to disturb the circle.
From Bruce Schneier's blog:
ReplyDeletehttp://schneier.com/blog/
"The NSA would like to remind everyone to call their mother's this Sunday. They need to calibrate their system."
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteWhat bothers me most about this newest privacy scandal is the association that people aren't making... that if NSA are culling information from phone records, what other records are they gathering? The idea that phone records alone are insufficient as an information tool was almost immediately passed around -- what would make them more efficient than in combination with other types of records?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteBart, re: To start, this is a flat out lie. The USA Today reported that these records do not include the identity of the owner of either phone number or the persons actually using these numbers.
ReplyDeleteActually Glenn's statement is not a lie at all. Even though the reports are that only phone numbers were given to the NSA, reverse telephone lookups are ridiculously easy to do. Every police department in the country (as well as many other organizations) can do reverse telephone lookups.
Glenn posted:
3) One aspect of the new NSA story which merits significantly more attention is just how revealing and intrusive the information is which is being collected and stored. Knowing the identity of every single person whom you call and from whom you receive calls can be almost as illuminating and privacy-destroying as listening in on the calls themselves
Glenn stated that the telecoms were providing identity information. This is a lie.
Anyone can gain this same call data for a fee.
Anyone can gain reverse telephone number identity information as well.
I do this frequently in my practice to identify witnesses.
Exactly what is the big deal?
efPer Hary Reids contention that the pro-Bush faction in DC is a criminal enterprise.
ReplyDeleteDid anyone see Professor Jonathon Turley on Countdown the other night? He pointed out all the people in the administration who had been convicted,(ie Iran-Contra)indicted (ie Libby and others) or were suspected and/or are being investigated at this time. Turley made it seem deliberate. I think he even said something to the effect, Bush seems to like these kinds of people in his admin.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteMad Dog has a good idea, but I'd broaden it a bit: send copies of the books to the media (in addition to, or instead of, Congress like Mad Dog suggested). It'll simultaneously increase the chances of you getting on TV and in newspapers and make their coverage better.
I bet if you started a fundraiser and got someone to give matching funds, you could get a ton of copies out there. Or maybe you could keep half the money and use the other half for that. Whatever fits your business model.
Dave
Poll numbers tanking, more info on spying comming out next week, time to strike Iran. The wingnuts are pushing for it even harder:
ReplyDeletehttp://tammybruce.com/archives/2006/05/striking_iran.php
WTF is wrong with these people? This country is in deeeep shit.
On the NSA/Qwest story. I wonder if it would be considered extortion to threaten future contracts if Qwest didn't comply.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, at 1:54 pm said,
ReplyDelete"Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for the real Republican all the time."
How does that explain Joe LIEberman? Given a clearly Democratic district, the Republicans will guarantee a victory by surreptitiously backing a Democrat in Name Only. As Michael Moore pointed out in Stupid White Men.
This practice is neither fair, nor democratic. But it is Republican.
While it's good to know that a Republican blogger is as weary as the rest of us on the left, what would be outstanding would be to see some Republican congresspeople fleeing their party (which has been decimated by the neocons agenda) to sit as Independents.
ReplyDeleteThey don't seem to understand they they have become impotent under Bush's inherent authority and they're hanging on to their so-called Republicanism even though it died long ago. It's pathetic, really.
Disenchanted Dave said...
ReplyDeleteGlenn,
"Mad Dog has a good idea, but I'd broaden it a bit..."
Thanks for the compliment!
BTW Glenn,
I am totally serious that I hope you and your publisher have a couple of good marketing "rabbits" to pull out your hats!
It would be a real shame if the release of your book wasn't complimented with some sharp, focused (and hopefully brilliant) ideas to grab some spotlight!
Whether its something like a "photo op" with Sen. Reid, or one with Patrick Fitzgerald, I'd like to think you are going to take advantage of the opportunity. After all, its said that opportunity only knocks once!
Go for it!
devoman: Actually Glenn's statement is not a lie at all. Even though the reports are that only phone numbers were given to the NSA, reverse telephone lookups are ridiculously easy to do.
ReplyDeleteMedia Matters reorts:
But the original May 11 USA Today article on the program made clear that phone customers' names, addresses, and "other personal information" can "easily" be obtained by cross-referencing their phone numbers with other databases, as Media Matters for America noted. A May 12 Washington Post article further reported that "the government has many means of identifying account owners, including access to commercial databases from ChoicePoint and LexisNexis."
I think that members of the media and politicians will get copies some way or another...look at how well the presales have been. Many of their consumers and constituents will be caught up on it.
ReplyDeleteI think many of them will be so disillusioned and discouraged that they will simply want to tune politics out.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the hardcore Bush supporters who do not become disillusioned will become more deranged in their thinking, and even more harsh in their rhetoric (if that’s possible).
Limbaugh’s recent tirade against “liberal Hollywood Jews” and Glen Beck’s open racism on CNN are prime examples of the mainstreaming of racism and extremism. The demonization of “liberals” will become even more extreme from those who remain active, because it is this hatred and fear that might possibly get “the base” to the polls.
For a perfect example of how deranged recent news has made some of them, consider Mark Noonan’s dismissal of the poll on Clinton (comment at 8:14):
Given that Clinton never got 50% of the vote, the results of that poll just prove that it is massively overweighted in favor of Democrats...but, please, keep believing those polls...they are surely more important than the votes on election day...in fact, don't even show up on election day...all you'll need is a new CNN poll the day after election day, right?
Noonan is worried about liberals and Democrats signing up “to be al-Qaeda auxiliaries” because he is so confident that they will continue to lose elections regardless of what biased polls say. He thinks more and more Democrats will development conspiracy theories that Republicans are stealing the elections pointing out that some “moonbats” even believe elections in 2000 and 2004 were stolen.
I'm not worried about a civil war in the traditional sense, but I am deeply worried that thousands of Americans will essentially sign up to be al-Qaeda auxiliaries - bringing terrorism home to the United States in the worst possible way: via nearly untrackable native-born American citizens.
No wonder he’s so supportive on spying on Americans and developing “social network analysis” because he believes that those who vote Democratic “will be easy prey to extremists who wish to use violence against America.”
And since they will not be “brown” people but “native-born” and not easy to recognize the idea of the government knowing everyone’s political views, the web pages they read, who their friends are and who they call, brings great comfort to those like Noonan who are no longer able to distinguish Harry Reid from Osama Bin Laden.
Billmon makes the excellent point that polls on this subject don’t change what’s right and wrong.
ReplyDeleteThe whole point of having civil liberties is that they are not supposed to be subject to a majority veto.
What the government is doing is illegal and unamerican, and that would still be true if the polls showed 99% support -- in fact, it would be even more true.
I'm wondering to what extent the negative (for the GOP) results of that poll are attributable to the use of this phrase: "Bush-Cheney Administration."
ReplyDeleteIt just struck me that I don't recall seeing Cheney's name featured so prominently alongside Bush's in polling before. Maybe it's always done that way and I just never noticed.
But with Cheney's approval ratings down in the 20% range, it can't be helping W too much for the pollsters to explicitly foreground the association in the minds of their subjects. Not that it's the least bit unfair or inaccurate--Billmon's habit of refering to it as the Cheney administration is right on target IMO.
There's an interesting AP story on the use of the state secrets privilege in the EFF/ATT case here.
ReplyDeleteFor what its worth, my little ten-town telco in rural Maine -- PineTree Networks -- prints a reverse directory right in the local telephone book.
ReplyDeleteI've got to think the ghost of J. Edgar Hoover is positively salavating in whatever hell he's currently in as he contemplates the Bush phone number mining operation. Seems to me this could possibly be preparation for the most extensive blackmailing operation in history. Journalists, politicians (especially those "Christian" pols calling their favorite phone sex hotline), and just regular folks all are in danger of getting caught up in the Bush dragnet as searches are conducted with no probabal cause, or even a vague suspicion of wrongdoing.
ReplyDeleteBart...However, these polls are not meant to inform, they are political tools.
ReplyDeleteBart is not meant to inform. He is just a politcal tool.
Vaughan said...
ReplyDeleteI remember when I finally gave myself permission not to rationalize Clinton's indiscretions away--very liberating!
Indiscretions? Compared to Bush's serial lying and serial crimes and murder, you bring up Clinton's indiscretions? Do you still support prohibition, too? If you want to elect saints, move to Vatican city. I don't give a rat's ass how much poon tang the guy gets, and then lies about it to protect his family and job, as long as he does his job.
Having Democrats obtain subpoena power in November is one to achieve that
ReplyDeleteBut who is going to obtain "subpoena power" over the Supreme Court, which has the final say on the real issue: whether these things are in violation of the Fourth Amendment?
As far as I am concerned that is a rhetorical question but the reality is only the Supreme Court can decide that.
Thank you for the link to the video, Michael Birk.
ReplyDeletejao,
ReplyDeleteThanks for so perfectly taking bart's talking points down. Although it would be satisfying to continue to do so, it would be best to ignore his b.s from now on. He has called people here terrorist supporters for their opposition to the administration. Need we say more about his creditibility? It is clear he is anti-American and is here to spread lies (as you have handily shown) in support of this criminal administration. How can we take anyone seriously who calls any American a terrorist supporter for speaking out against our government (It is OUR government! Some have forgotten this!). We can not and we should not.
PR,
ReplyDeleteYour lies belie your comments.
Too bad you cannot seem to add anything useful to anyone, much less here.
So let's see if I have it straight for the Democratic platform
ReplyDelete* Leave Iraq ASAP
* Leave the US borders porous
* handcuff the intelligence agencies
* Get Iran the bomb
* Raise taxes
Does that about cover it?
I DO think it's interesting though that there is no mention of how handcuffing intelligence agencies prevented Agent Rowley from looking into Moussaoui's laptop or the passing on of flying lessons to nowhere. Is that what you folks are in favor of? Come to think of it, aren't you the same group that blamed Bush for not connecting dots? Can I assume that if you folks are successful there won't be any blame on Bush for the next attack?
I am really interested to know what you people plan instead of this program. Good intentions?
Shooter...
ReplyDeleteI'm sure someone, somewhere, agrees with your post; no one within miles of this blog, I'm fairly sure. By the way, who exactly are "you people"?
I think I see where you get your moniker though; from shooting off blanks into the night.
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDeleteSo let's see if I have it straight for the Democratic platform
* Leave Iraq ASAP
* Leave the US borders porous
* handcuff the intelligence agencies
* Get Iran the bomb
* Raise taxes
Does that about cover it?
(...)
I am really interested to know what you people plan instead of this program. Good intentions?
You left out mass deportations of un-American morons like yourself, but as you well know, some of the best intentions and deeds in the service of the protection of democracy are prohibited by our laws.
bart and Shooter :
ReplyDelete2005
Two Japanese Soldiers on Mindanao
A report in early May 2005 talked about two former Japanese Army soldiers found on Mindanao
Reportedly, their names were Yoshio Yamakawa, 87, from Osaka, and Tsuzuki Nakauchi, 85.
Doubts rise over Japanese WWII 'soldiers'
From the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC)
Japanese officials were studying new information to confirm whether two elderly men in the southern Philippines were soldiers left over from World War II, but suspicion was rising of a hoax or a trap set by kidnappers. The story of former Japanese soldiers ready to emerge from the mountains 60 years after the war has attracted a horde of media, mostly from Japan, to the city of General Santos on the troubled island of Mindanao. On the third day of waiting for a Japanese contact to produce the two men, Shuhei Ogawa, the embassy spokesman, said officials had sent information from several sources, including the Philippine government, to Tokyo for analysis. "We have a clearer picture now. That means it's easier to make a decision whether to proceed or not," he told reporters. Japanese officials met the Japanese contact - a trader who only gave his name as Asano, on Sunday, he said. Mr Ogawa said he had been told to wait in General Santos for instructions from Tokyo. He did not give details of the information or say whether it confirmed that the two men were the first cases in 30 years of wartime stragglers being found. Scepticism began to grow three days after the stragglers' story broke in Japan's media, because there has been no credible proof the two elderly men exist. Media named the pair as Yoshio Yamakawa, 87, from the western city of Osaka, and Tsuzuki Nakauchi, 85. The last known Japanese straggler from the war was found in 1975 in Indonesia.
A treasonous cabal with tentacles in the highest reaches of the military and intelligence community, as well as in various media (including the blogosphere), is actively conspiring to aid and comfort our mortal enemies, by revealing our most sensitive military plans to the mad mullahs in Iran. The President must forestall this imminent treason by any means at his disposal.
ReplyDeleteFirst it was "A Good Leak".
ReplyDeleteToday it's "The Right Call".
A once great paper lies down with dogs and wakes up with fleas.
And shooter -- it takes a brave man to challenge a straw man to a duel. Take it outside why don't you.
My review of How Would A Patriot Act for Random Lengths News will run in our next issue.
ReplyDeleteNext issue of what?
Jao, superb analysis of words in your 7:43 post. The fact that most people are not qualified or don't take the time to do that kind of analysis is why propaganda so easily succeeds.
I would like to ask you, jao, if, based upon only the facts you know so far, you are in favor of the confirmation of Gen. Hayden.
And shooter -- it takes a brave man to challenge a straw man to a duel. Take it outside why don't you.
ReplyDeleteIt's very easy to denigrate someone's actions when not held responsible for the results. Do you have a better idea or not?
Try again
ReplyDelete(this is TOO hard)
http://www.nsa.gov/sigint/
I'm weary Lord.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, is there anything else to say?
ReplyDeleteMy review of the book will hopefully be up shortly (it's based on the prepublication manuscript, but it should still be relevant).
ReplyDeleteOK. I read Paul Rosenberg's review of Glenn's book. First of all, the book sounds even better than I had hoped for, and I was already convinced it was going to be spellbinding.
ReplyDeleteI really cannot imagine how Glenn did that in six weeks. It's astonishing. No wonder they were working 20 hours a day and Glenn still had time to write this blog.
It confirms what I suspected. Glenn is twins.
Paul's review is simply terrific-superb-with the exception of one completely, utterly wrong sentence but I will leave that aside because I understand the lens through which Paul sees the world and I guess if you look at things through that wrong lens, the sentence follows.
Another thing I don't think Paul understands is that a good portion of what he calls "centrists" (who are often apolitical) cannot be described away as "naive".
They are often highly intelligent, observant people who have become very cynical (with good reason) about the "system" and they know a bad investment when they see it.
Time spent trying to correct this system (once you catch on what it is) is simply a bad investment of one's time (we all only have one life) unless you have some kind of extra stake in politics. Most people don't.
The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
This is summed up well by the first comment after Paul's review which reads:
"Oh, the humanity." (0.00 / 0)
bush, is the "front man", this is about the system. Why else would Hillary be going to dinner with Murdock and allowing him to throw her a fund raiser. Sounds like a great book, next. Peace.
Nevertheless, hope springs eternal in every idealist's heart no matter how "disenchanted" he has become.
So I can't wait to read the book.
PS. I don't care what Scalia said in an 8-1 opinion. Let him wax poetic all he likes and try to establish his credentials as a principled human being while waiting for the kill.
Subsequently he had a chance to "make a difference" on a later case and he didn't. Not to mention his comments in Sweden.
The proof is in the pudding.
ggr:
ReplyDeleteyour comment above about senate democratic leader harry reid saying, in a phone conversation,
that the pro-bush contingent was "corrupt to its core"
fired some neurons that led to the recollection that reid spent a fair amount of time as a younger man fighting corruption in las vegas.
if i am right, than he may understand what is happening in washington right now
better than most politicians there,
better than most journalsits writing about what goes on there,
and better than most of us who have never lived thru an attack on either corrupt politicians or the mob.
Billmon makes a key observation that I haven't seen enough of, here.
ReplyDeleteThe whole point of having civil liberties is that they are not supposed to be subject to a majority veto. Hobbes may not have believed in natural rights, but our founders did. And their opponents, the anti-Federalists, were even more zealous about restraining the powers of the federal superstate, which is why they forced the Federalists to write the Bill of Rights directly into the Constitution.
It defeats the purpose of having a 4th Amendment if its validiity is entirely dependent on breaking 50% in the latest poll. It would be nice to have "the people" on our side in this debate, and obviously a lot of them are, even if Doherty's plurality still prefers Leviathan's crushing embrace. But some things are wrong just because they're wrong -- not because a temporary majority (or even a permanent one) thinks they're wrong.
[snip]
And in a republic, there are many issues where it is totally appropriate to cite polling results to support a particular position. It's certainly legitimate for the majority to insist that its money be spent or not spent on certain things, that different revenue sources be taxed at higher or lower rates, that speed limits be raised or lowered, that certain judges be confirmed or not -- or about a million other legislative questions. And they certainly have a right to hold their elected representatives accountable for not paying attention to what the majority wants.
But constitutional rights are different. A true natural lawist would argue that they are beyond the power of governments or the voters to grant or deny. Like the man said, they're "self evident," not to mention "inalienable."
In the end, the framers were more pragmatic: If the majority wants to abolish the 4th Amendment -- or the entire Bill or Rights, for that matter -- all it has to do is get two thirds of each house of Congress to pass a new amendment, get the president to sign it and three fourths of the states to ratify it. Or, it can get two thirds of the states to call a constitutional convention, and try its luck there. Win that battle, and the NSA can tap everbody's phones until the cows come home. But until then, the 4th Amendment stands, and it is most definitely not subject to majority rule.
We all know this of course. But I've met with staff of my elected officials recently, and have found them (all Democrats) stunningly unwilling to concede that there is serious, glaring problem here.
The Congressional staffer would not agree, personally, that the president was violating the law. A Senate staffer, astoundingly, said the senator was waiting for an investigation. before coming to a decision on censure.
I found myself in each case saying that we are talking about 6th grade civics here, not any fine point of law. This nation used to be about process. It's astounding, but I think we have to keep reminding people how the system works, as if we were talking to a 6th grader.
These are not issues where polls carry weight. The obsession with them on a constitutional matter is very unhealthy.
And lest anyone think that's a bad thing, I'll take naivite over cynicism any day of the week
ReplyDeleteNo, you really don't want that. Cynicism gets a bad rap. Diogenes was the first cynic. The Cynics of Greece probably couldn't be called true cynics, as cynics are not joiners, (see Marx, Groucho, not Karl). Twain, Beirce, Mencken are all cynics. Naivete is charming on a date but not for politics. That's a different kind of contact sport.
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDeleteAnd shooter -- it takes a brave man to challenge a straw man to a duel. Take it outside why don't you.
It's very easy to denigrate someone's actions when not held responsible for the results. Do you have a better idea or not?
Shooter, every Republican knows the Democrats don't have a plan. Did you miss another memo?
The Xtian Reich Hones Its Mythology
ReplyDeleteAccording to Salon.com:
Two dancers, donning black overcoats, crossed their arms menacingly. As a Christian pop ballad swelled on the speakers, a boy wearing judicial robes walked out. Holding a Ten Commandments tablet that seemed to be made of cardboard, he was playing former Alabama Supreme Court justice Roy Moore. The trench-coated thugs approached him, miming a violent rebuke and forcing him to the other end of the stage, sans Commandments.
There, a cluster of dancers impersonating liberal activists waved signs with slogans like "No Moore!" and "Keep God Out!! No God in Court." The boy Moore danced a harangue, first lurching toward his tormentors and then cringing back in outrage before breaking through their line to lunge for his monument. But the dancers in trench coats -- agents of atheism -- got hold of it first and took it away, leaving him abject on the floor. As the song's uplifting chorus played -- "After you've done all you can, you just stand" -- a dancer in a white robe, playing either an angel or God himself, came forward and helped the Moore character to his feet.
Frank Rich in 'NYT' Defends Newspapers, Rips 'Traitors' in Washington
ReplyDeleteBy E&P Staff
NEW YORK In his Sunday opinion column for The New York Times, Frank Rich, who returned from book leave just last week, shook off the cobwebs to launch a vigorous defense of newspapers -- and an attack on the real "traitors," including top officials.
Rich opens by recalling charges of treasons against the late New York Times editor Abe Rosenthal when he published the Pentagon Papers in 1971. "Today we know who the real traitors were: the officials who squandered American blood and treasure on an ill-considered war and then tried to cover up their lies and mistakes," Rich observes.
Now history is repeat itself, as the Bush administration and tis defenders "are desperate to deflect blame" for the Iraq fiasco, "and, guess what, the traitors once again are The Times and The Post. This time the newspapers committed the crime of exposing warrantless spying on Americans by the National Security Agency (The Times) and the C.I.A.'s secret 'black site' Eastern European prisons (The Post). Aping the Nixon template, the current White House tried to stop both papers from publishing and when that failed impugned their patriotism....
"When reporters at both papers were awarded Pulitzer Prizes last month, administration surrogates, led by bloviator in chief William Bennett, called for them to be charged under the 1917 Espionage Act.
"We can see this charade for what it is: a Hail Mary pass by the leaders who bungled a war and want to change the subject to the journalists who caught them in the act. What really angers the White House and its defenders about both the Post and Times scoops are not the legal questions the stories raise about unregulated gulags and unconstitutional domestic snooping, but the unmasking of yet more administration failures in a war effort riddled with ineptitude. It's the recklessness at the top of our government, not the press's exposure of it, that has truly aided the enemy, put American lives at risk and potentially sabotaged national security. That's where the buck stops, and if there's to be a witch hunt for traitors, that's where it should begin."
Rich also suggests that perhaps the recently exposed NSA database on phone records "may have more to do with monitoring 'traitors' like reporters and leakers than with tracking terrorists. Journalists and whistle-blowers who relay such government blunders are easily defended against the charge of treason. It's often those who make the accusations we should be most worried about. Mr. Goss, a particularly vivid example, should not escape into retirement unexamined. He was so inept that an overzealous witch hunter might mistake him for a Qaeda double agent."
He closes with a denunciation of Gen. Michael Hayden for new CIA chief, based on his leadership at NSA. "If Democrats — and, for that matter, Republicans — let a president with a Nixonesque approval rating install yet another second-rate sycophant at yet another security agency, even one as diminished as the C.I.A.," Rich declares, "someone should charge those senators with treason, too. "
shooter242 said,
ReplyDeleteIt's very easy to denigrate someone's actions when not held responsible for the results.
I suppose your confidence here isn't too surprising, since WRT the Clinton era Republicans know this dictum a little too well.
anon @12:49 said,
Shooter, every Republican knows the Democrats don't have a plan. Did you miss another memo?
Ho-ho-HO. Very fresh humour indeed. Of course, you could be a non-Bushite trying to be ironic, but I somehow doubt it.
In order to get everything straight, Bart (I haven't bothered to read shooter) operates from the idea that 1) one is guilty until 2) proved not guilty and 3) that just because one is not guilty, one can never be cleared/deemed to be innocent.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the NSA latest is concerned, look no further than Bart's thinking. You are all suspect until you are not, and even then, you are never really cleared.
What threat does the NSA program -- any of them -- pose to any of us? The basic idea that one is innocent until proven guilty. It is not a threat if you think you have nothing to hide. However, if you don't think you have anything to hide, perhaps you are most vulnerable. Since you will be assumed guilty.
I could be all wet.
Thanks for editing that other thread Glenn.
Paul... Cynicism says, "you can never prove it, and even if you could, I still wouldn't believe you."
ReplyDeleteI don't know if I would entirely agree with that. As I have said before, though not on this thread, I am a cynic and a skeptic. They are not mutually exclusive.
Ho-ho-HO. Very fresh humour indeed. Of course, you could be a non-Bushite trying to be ironic, but I somehow doubt it.
You are wallowing in cynicism here, and being a bit too skeptical. I never do that. I am just cynical and skeptic. Have your snark-o-meter calibrated. I've never found plans to be all that helpful. Once they are taken off the page and put into action they run headlong into reality.
Zack said...
ReplyDeleteBillmon makes the excellent point that polls on this subject don’t change what’s right and wrong.
“ The whole point of having civil liberties is that they are not supposed to be subject to a majority veto. What the government is doing is illegal and unamerican, and that would still be true if the polls showed 99% support -- in fact, it would be even more true.”
WEST VIRGINIA STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION v. BARNETTE, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)
Mr. Justice JACKSON delivered the opinion of the Court.
[...]
The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.
Obsidian Wings dissects Bush's radio speech that mentions the illegal NSA database of millions of US caller records. S/he writes:
ReplyDeleteLet's leave aside the obvious lies: that the NSA program "strictly targets al Qaeda and its known affiliates" (tens of millions of them, apparently, all here in the US), or that "we are not trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans." I'm interested in the claim that our privacy is being "fiercely protected" by this administration. And I'm curious: what, exactly, is the threat to our privacy from which we are being fiercely protected? If Bush and his administration are our protectors, what exactly is he protecting us from?
...
Maybe the real reason we went to war with Iraq was that Saddam Hussein was after the personal records of American citizens; and there's some deep, dark reason why the President can't tell us about it. Maybe that explains why none of his other rationales make sense: they're all just cover stories for Saddam's unmentionable threat to our privacy. Maybe our privacy is threatened by fiscal sanity, or the estate tax, or the city of New Orleans, or that fish the President caught. Or maybe the reason he likes to whack away at the mesquite on his ranch that it's a would-be invader of privacy in a very, very clever disguise.
Somehow, I don't think so.
So what is this nameless threat to our privacy from which our President is so fiercely protecting us? The only thing I can think of is: himself.
Wiki actually has an entry for "cynicism". Very interesting, and links to Philosophical Skepticism, as well a Machiavellianism and a few other things. I don't think Paul is a deluded social pretender who buries his head in the sand. I am not quite this bad, either: [some] cynics [may]see themselves as depersonalised and self-serving inhabitants of a meaningless, fictitious, and shallow world.
ReplyDeleteDespite the negative portrayal of cynics, some would argue that such people simply "refuse to look through rosy-tinted spectacles" and do not fear to demolish popular beliefs no matter how sacred society considers such alleged misconceptions. Cynics themselves tend to take this view, regarding themselves as enlightened free thinkers, and their critics as deluded social pretenders who "bury their heads in the sand". However, an excess of cynicism in an individual can cause social or psychological difficulties when cynics see themselves as depersonalised and self-serving inhabitants of a meaningless, fictitious, and shallow world. It can be argued that an excess of cynicism actually leads to a disassociation from reality, because it leads to easy rejection of hard answers.
Paul and anon: Interesting comments on the concept of the cynic. Paul is correct when he states that the original meaning does not necessarily have to apply to the current meaning of the word today. As everyone knows, words change all the time and what a word used to mean and what it means now can be very different.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with Paul, however, in this way: the great thing about humans knowing their history is that they can try to recover aspects of their history that they believe have been corrupted or forgotten.
In this way, a cynic such as Diogenes, for example, who didn't say he believed nothing but that he simply sought an honest individual is a very powerful exemplar.
The cynic method of questioning all values, of course, led them to attack and undermine the pretensions of those in power. Therefore, we find some indication that it was cynic philosophers who led an unseccessful rebellion of the poor against the Romans.
Indeed, as I have mentioned before, some historical-Jesus scholars think Jesus might've been a wandering cynic philosopher, preaching opposition ot the Romans and their puppet regime in Jersualem.
Because a word means something today doesn't mean it can't mean something different several years from now. The example of the cynic philosopher of antiquity has much to offer political thought of today--especially for those who seek honesty in all things from politicans and proponents of all diverse ideologies.
This took a lot longer than I expected. My pre-review of Glenn's book is finally up.
ReplyDeleteGood stuff
As for American's attitude about the latest NSA news it's important to remember that O'Reilly and others have portrayed the collected numbers as being completely international, others have portrayed them as simplybeing who suspected terrorists call and I have no doubt this is shouted loudly to acquaintances.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Anchoress leaving she was funny. This Christian spiel including the claim reasonable people could disagree with angry, hateful remarks leading to her classic: that the sins of Judas and others of the past could be forgiven, but Democrats were a new order of evil never imagined by Jesus.
She flipped.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIt's clear that Bush's temporary slump in the polls is due to the public perception that the administration has been dithering on immigration and on Iran thumbing its nose at us. Look for Bush to take bold action in both areas during the forthcoming weeks and you will see a dramatic turnaround.
Dreaming, always dreaming, You're dreaming your life away.
the cynic librarian said...
ReplyDeletePaul and anon: Interesting comments on the concept of the cynic. Paul is correct when he states that the original meaning does not necessarily have to apply to the current meaning of the word today. As everyone knows, words change all the time and what a word used to mean and what it means now can be very different.
What kind of anarchist goes to the dictionary, looks up the word and says: "That's me!"? The lexicographer is not your friend. Just ask Orwell.
Jason Leopold breaking the news that Karl HAS been indicted.
ReplyDeleteWe shall see. I find it quite likely, and long overdue.
Paul Rosenberg said...
ReplyDeleteLike Attracts Like
"There was corruption, such as Funeralgate, while he was Texas Governor, and, of course, the stealing of the 2000 election. In short, criminality runs through everything he touches."
That and incompetence too. When he became Governor of Texas the budget was in surplus. When he left to campaign for pRESIDENT he had already destroyed the surplus and was running budget deficits. At least in part due to a tax cut that he signed into law that no one had asked for, nor felt was needed.
One of our regs posted that article from MoJo Blog about the woman being treated as mentally ill in Ohio, with the cop threatening to kill her for putting up anti-Bush literature. Welcome to the new evil empire, right?
ReplyDeleteCNN is reporting on the story of the US military forcing mentally ill troops into combat in Iraq.
Report: Mentally ill troops forced into combat
Military not following own rules on deployment, paper says
It not only can happen here. It appears that it already did, right under our noses, like they said it would. Not from a threat without, but within.
Interesting thread but I am too tired to address all the interesting points now.
ReplyDeleteIs the rumor I heard true? Bush is going to be on TV Monday night announcing that Congress and he have agreed on amnesty for illegal immigrants?
Does everyone here agree that this phonegate is a violation of the Fourth Amendment?
So far the only people I have read who see it as clearly as I do are Billmon, Zack, Jay and by implication Thomas.
If Hayden gets confirmed as it appears he will be, can't you all see that it's all over but the shouting?
We'll have let Orin Kerr get away with it.
I think talking about any laws at all is allowing oneself to fall into the trap of being misdirected while the real criminal gets away.
The issue is it's UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Anyone can see that. Why isn't everyone saying that? Are we signing off on the Constitution in 2006 because the High-Tech Crime Spree mentality has won?
That's disgusting, actually. I am outraged, shocked, naive, cynical and just plain disgusted.
But mostly I am shocked which I guess means I am naive. It's a circle?
PS. I just realized this is what you get when you allow a bunch of phony Borkian intellectuals right and left to dominate the debate.
Everyone bought into this myth that agree with it or not, Roe was poorly decided.
I reject that. There sure as hell IS a right to privacy in the Constitution. Maybe it's an implicit right but it's probably the biggest right in the whole Bill of Rights.
A person has the RIGHT to be left alone and they especially have the right to be left alone by the Government as long as they don't commit any crimes.
That's what Brandeis said and I totally agree with him.
Hilarious! McCain at Liberty University this week, attacking the blogosphere...
ReplyDeleteWhen I was a young man, I was quite infatuated with self-expression, and rightly so because, if memory conveniently serves, I was so much more eloquent, well-informed, and wiser than anyone else I knew. It seemed I understood the world and the purpose of life so much more profoundly than most people. I believed that to be especially true with many of my elders, people whose only accomplishment, as far as I could tell, was that they had been born before me, and, consequently, had suffered some number of years deprived of my insights…It’s a pity that there wasn’t a blogosphere then. I would have felt very much at home in the medium.
From the entry on cynicism at Wiki:
A modern development of cynicism arises from the observation that as people age and gain experience they tend to adopt opinions of their parents that they may have rejected when younger. Sometimes called Batwainism (Born-again-Twainism), it takes its name from the remark attributed to Mark Twain that when he was a young teenager he first began to realise the extent of his father's ignorance, but that by the time that he was twenty-one he was astonished by how much his father had learned in such a short time.
I knew Mark Twain. And you, John McCain, are no Mark Twain.
McCain is so far out of the mainstream he has no idea who the blogosphere is. Kids are on cellphones texting one another. What a desperately unhip idiot he is.
ReplyDeleteDemographics of Democratic Blog Activists
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDelete"It's very easy to denigrate someone's actions when not held responsible for the results. Do you have a better idea or not?"
Hey Shooter you are with the party in charge that is running things so where are YOUR ideas? Or are you saying you support torture, spying on Americans, arresting Americans and holding them indefinitely with no charges, outing CIA agents, lying to start wars, nuking Iran, and continually lying to the American people about what you are doing?
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"McCain is so far out of the mainstream he has no idea who the blogosphere is. Kids are on cellphones texting one another. What a desperately unhip idiot he is."
Worse than that he has sold out in an attempt to get the endorsement of a pRESIDENT that is at 29%, and the religious right.
I used to respect him as a fellow Viet Nam vet and a POW, but he has turned out to be just another politician.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteCNN is reporting on the story of the US military forcing mentally ill troops into combat in Iraq.
Report: Mentally ill troops forced into combat
Yup, they're desperate. The Repubs are finding they can't get anybody to sign up to go fight their based on lies war for them. So they have to send the ones with PTSD back into battle with a prescription for anti-depressants. You can't keep sending guys and girls back into battle over and over. Some of those kids are on their fourth tour already. But hey since when has Bush listened to anybody other than those around him that have no military combat experience.
As of January the military was also refusing to release 13,000 troops who have already served their time under the military's stop loss program. And I also read that the military is not allowing reserve officers to resign their commission.
orionATL said...
ReplyDeleteyour comment above about senate democratic leader harry reid saying, in a phone conversation,
that the pro-bush contingent was "corrupt to its core"
fired some neurons that led to the recollection that reid spent a fair amount of time as a younger man fighting corruption in las vegas.
As is the usual pattern, when democrats go the "Holier than Thou" route, the past proves otherwise. Apparently Harry isn't as clean as advertised, earning the name "Dingy Harry". Between nepotism and Abramoff, you might want to find another standard bearer.
Paul Rosenberg said...
ReplyDeleteClinton v. Bush On Natural Disasters
A real eye-opener in the Clinton/Bush comparison is this:
on handling natural disasters, it was 51 percent to 30 percent, also favoring Clinton.
So, let's see. Bush lost New Orleans, Clinton lost.... Help me out here, people! What major metropolitan are did Clinton lose that was roughly 2/3 the size of New Orleans? I'm drawing a blank here.
Sorry, I can't let this pass. Bush didn't lose New Orleans, New Orleans was a classic Dem city with a Dem mayor in a state with a Dem Governor.
I actually hope that you make an issue of New Orleans. It will be a wonderful opportunity to talk about levee committees using funds to buy a casino, how the Governor ordered abandonment of starving, thirsty, people at the Superdome we saw on TV, and of course the flooded school buses. Please feel free to bring up the subject at any and all times.
Spark says:
ReplyDeleteShooter, every Republican knows the Democrats don't have a plan. Did you miss another memo?
Ho-ho-HO. Very fresh humour indeed. Of course, you could be a non-Bushite trying to be ironic, but I somehow doubt it.
And yet my point remains. It's very easy to criticize. Anyone can do it. The hard part is coming up with a viable alternative, but as always you have none.
One can only presume that your alternative to tracking terrorists in this country, is leaving them to their own devices and then criticisizing the inevitable results.
It worked that way for 9/11, Good job.
I actually hope that you make an issue of New Orleans.
ReplyDeleteShooter, you don't get it. You write as if everyone contributing to this site were Democratic party operatives.
As far as I can tell, the people contributing here are Democrats, Republicans, conservatives, moderates, Libertarians, centrists, and more.
The common thread here is people recognize that the current administration's policies are undermining the principles of our constitutional republic. This is a cross-party issue!
That this is being done in the name of fighting terrorism doesn't make it any better. Most of us believe that the damage being done to our country by this systematic erosion of checks and balances is far worse than the incremental gains we get in the fight against terrorism.
Daphne said:
ReplyDeleteWhat threat does the NSA program -- any of them -- pose to any of us? The basic idea that one is innocent until proven guilty.
Oh what colossal hypocrisy! The people here have indicted, tried, and would love to impose a sentence on Bush without evidence. Only on the seriousness of the charges.
How many have called for censure and impeachment? All of you?
And yet here we have a program that is less intrusive than telemarketing. Were are the apologies for being wrong yet again?
anon says:
ReplyDeleteI've never found plans to be all that helpful. Once they are taken off the page and put into action they run headlong into reality.
That may very well be true, the difference here is that having a plan recognizes the reality of a situation. Having none is willful ignorance.
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDeleteThat may very well be true, the difference here is that having a plan recognizes the reality of a situation. Having none is willful ignorance.
An ill conceived plan from a willfully ignorant man and his willfully ignorant administration is a disaster looking for a place to happen. And here we are.
Shooter,
I don't like to play badminton, not even with experts. You ain't know expert. This is getting boring.
Shooter, stop obsessing over your straw men.
ReplyDeleteGen. Odom's plan is the ticket. He's not even a Democrat.
Shooter....Oh what colossal hypocrisy! The people here have indicted, tried, and would love to impose a sentence on Bush without evidence. Only on the seriousness of the charges.
ReplyDeleteHow many have called for censure and impeachment? All of you?
Pot meet kettle.
The list of people you have indicted, tried and imposed sentence on for no more than excersing their first amendment rights is too long for the space allowed. Cindy Sheehan(she's also ugly), Michael Moore(he's fat), Rachel Corrie (she's flat, as in dead, hahaha). Do I need to go on?
No one wants impeachment, not yet. First Cheney has to go, like Agnew. Then we will deal with Chimpy, who has admitted breaking laws, and his replacement.
Gris Lobo said...
ReplyDeleteShooter242 said...
"It's very easy to denigrate someone's actions when not held responsible for the results. Do you have a better idea or not?"
Hey Shooter you are with the party in charge that is running things so where are YOUR ideas? Or are you saying you support torture, spying on Americans, arresting Americans and holding them indefinitely with no charges, outing CIA agents, lying to start wars, nuking Iran, and continually lying to the American people about what you are doing?
Well, I'm certainly not sitting behind a keyboard relying on false premises as a national policy.
* Torture? Nope, nobody supports torture and the ones responsible for Abu Ghraib have been disciplined.
* Spying on Americans? Not the NSA it seems, but it certainly happens every day in several industries. Interestingly, it would be a safe bet that spyware knew more about Moussaoui than the FBI before 9/11, because of 4th Amendment restrictions. The surviving families might have a few choice words about that.
* Arresting Americans without charges? You mean arresting ONE American that became a cause celebe'? Well, maybe Bush will pardon him just like a previous President pardoned actual convicted terrorists.
* As for Plame, it seems Wilson was the outer after all. LOL.
* As for Iraq, there was no lying. Even Blix said Saddam wasn't forthcoming to the UN just before invasion. I'll believe him a lot sooner than I'd believe you.
* Nuking Iran? Oh please, that's one of the biggest strawmen around. In fact, this is the grand opportunity for UN apologists to demonstrate the effectiveness (or lack of) their institution to corral a chalenger to the status quo. I'm not holding my breath on this one. In fact I predict that the UN drops the ball once again and Iran gets the bomb. Then what Spanky?
* It seems now, that you folks are the continuous liars. It is all you have to offer. Hysteria, criticism, and fabrication. Yeah, that's real leadership.
Devoman says:
ReplyDeleteThe common thread here is people recognize that the current administration's policies are undermining the principles of our constitutional republic. This is a cross-party issue!
You have a vaild comment, but I have to point out that everyone has a different motivation behind their dissent. I also have to point out that we have discovered that Bush's program is exponentially less intrusive than either Carter's or Clinton's. It's relevant in that the Republic didn't fall in either occasion.
As for tradeoffs, I'm still waiting to hear whether protecting Moussaoui's rights was worth the 3000 dead in NYC. The silence on that one is deafening.
"weak, impotent, borderline-sad figure "
ReplyDeleteThe technical term is:
LOSER.
Bush is a loser, and always has been, and everyone who supports him is a loser, too.
The sooner and louder we get the word out, the better--might save some people some embarrassment.
Paul said...
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
What kind of anarchist goes to the dictionary, looks up the word and says: "That's me!"? The lexicographer is not your friend. Just ask Orwell.
It depends on the lexicographer. Since Bierce has already been mentioned, from The Devil's Dictionary:
CYNIC, n.
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic's eyes to improve his vision.
p.s. "anarchist" is not a good example to use in this discussion, since it's the folks who describe themselves as cynics who are mostly the problem, IMHO. They think it's hype to abandon all hope.
I agree but I chose anarchists specifically because it is my contention that a true anarchist must define his idea of anarchy for himself. Pure anarchy is a lonely prospect, like pure cynicism.
FRIENDLESS, adj.
Having no favors to bestow. Destitute of fortune. Addicted to utterance of truth and common sense.
A.B.
Some day I hope to be King of the Anarchists.
Paul Rosenberg says:
ReplyDeleteSo, let's see. Bush lost New Orleans
A typical example of the Republican mind. If they can find anyone else who bears any responsibility for anything, they automatically absolve themselves of all responsibility for everything.
Right. Blame Bush for everything, while taking no responsibility for anything. Projection?
Tell you what, We'll take responsibility for holding up rescue people in sexual harrassment seminars, if you folks take responsibility for blocking food and water to the people at the Superdome.
Paul @11:03,
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree with you more. I'm a DemSoc myself. I still want to be King of the Anarchists, just for a day.
In reply to Shooter's comments:
ReplyDeleteI also have to point out that we have discovered that Bush's program is exponentially less intrusive than either Carter's or Clinton's. It's relevant in that the Republic didn't fall in either occasion.
Yup, if the NSA program(s) were the only issue, we'd have very little to discuss or even disagree on (and frankly, the discussion on this blog on the NSA issues is quite reasoned). But this is just the next instance on top of many much worse abuses. It's the collective whole that has people up in arms.
As for tradeoffs, I'm still waiting to hear whether protecting Moussaoui's rights was worth the 3000 dead in NYC.
I doubt that you'd find many people here who wouldn't agree that a mistake was made by the FBI in that case.
But that's really not the issue; nobody disputes that one.
Here's the different world-view we have. You seem to be willing to sacrifice many of the principles of our republic to gain a small edge in the fight against terrorism.
I believe the edge you think you're gaining is illusory and the chipping away at the foundations of our principles far more profoundly dangerous.
I believe that OBL and Al-Qaeda's strategy is not to defeat us by attacks - they know they can't succeed that way. Instead, it's to promote in us a bunker mentality and to have us tear down our own institutions. If that is their strategy, Bush is certainly playing right into their hands.
Just ask yourself: Does the US have more or less international influence now or immediately post 9-11? Is the US military stronger or weaker now than post 9-11? Back then, I heard the right say it was better to be feared than respected. We've gone a long way toward being neither. No matter how you slice it, Bush was dealt a strong hand and misplayed terribly.
This quote falsely attributed to Thomas can be found on wingnut websites all over the web, and explains the red scare and bias that still pollutes political discourse in this country.
ReplyDelete"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ’liberalism,’ they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." Norman Thomas, former U.S. Socialist Presidential Candidate
See: Lou Cannon. Governor Reagan: His Rise to Power.
PublicAffairs, 2003. ISBN: 1586480308. (F866.4.R43 C36 2003 in most
academic libraries; in 979.4... or BIO section of most public
libraries). On page 125, Cannon says [of Reagan] ..."a favorite line was
this supposed prediction of Norman Thomas...", and "This is a suspect
quotation, and Reagan gave no reference for it". Cannon also says in a
note "If Thomas said this, I have been unable to find evidence of it...."
Reagan, or his people, probably just made it up. Swiftboating liberalism, FDR and the New Deal is nothing new. Ask Hypatia.
Web searches turn up a related quote from Upton Sinclair
(which ALSO should be double checked!) in Wikipedia -
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Upton_Sinclair :
"The American People will take Socialism, but they won't take
the label. I certainly proved it in the case of EPIC. Running
on the Socialist ticket I got 60,000 votes, and running on the
slogan to 'End Poverty in California' I got 879,000. I think
we simply have to recognize the fact that our enemies have
succeeded in spreading the Big Lie. There is no use attacking
it by a front attack, it is much better to out-flank them.
Letter to Norman Thomas (25 September 1951)". See also at the
bottom of http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Jupton.htm
I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them.
Adlai E. Stevenson
I have always feared the right and conservatism run amok as much as any other form of extremism.
Shooter242 said...
Right. Blame Bush for everything, while taking no responsibility for anything. Projection?
Tell you what, We'll take responsibility for holding up rescue people in sexual harrassment seminars, if you folks take responsibility for blocking food and water to the people at the Superdome.
Shooter! You people are still blaming the Clinton for chrissakes! Bush and the GOP run the show. Act like a man for once and take responsibility for something, you squid manuvering, pusillanimous mass!
... As long as you continue to tar social democracy with all the crimes of communism, I feel equally entitled to tar the free market with the crimes of slavery, segregation, colonialism and genocide; piss me off and I'll add fascism and the Nazis.
Greg Erwin
Devoman said... @ 11:38 AM
ReplyDeleteI don't like superlatives all that much, but you should get your own blog. That was a good distillation of what many people are thinking.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletedevoman writes:
ReplyDeleteI doubt that you'd find many people here who wouldn't agree that a mistake was made by the FBI in that case.
But that's really not the issue; nobody disputes that one.
If it were that simple I'd agree as well, but the full issue includes the Reno justice Dept., the Gorelick memo, the career hit an FBI supervisor received due to FISA warrant criticism, and the fear of trangressing potential fourth amendment protections. As in most things, balance is all. Moussauoi's laptop remained closed because of fear of unemployment. When one's boss puts out a memo saying we are going to impose tighter standards than legally required, paralysis results.
You seem to be willing to sacrifice many of the principles of our republic to gain a small edge in the fight against terrorism.
That is certainly the impression some would like to extend, but I would maintain it's political posturing. The records involved are less comprehensive than an ordinary phone book's. What principle was lost here?
I believe the edge you think you're gaining is illusory and the chipping away at the foundations of our principles far more profoundly dangerous.
I'm sure you do, but it's a basic truth that rights don't matter much to the dead. Iran has been found with near weapons grade uranium. It's obvious to one and all that Iran is moving to nukes that it will maintain for itself and distribute to terrorists. So far, people with your point of view are relying on the UN to curtail that possibility and failing miserably.
To further put this brou-ha-ha about phone records in perspective, here are a dozen or so longstanding instances of warrantless searches.
Instead, it's to promote in us a bunker mentality and to have us tear down our own institutions. If that is their strategy, Bush is certainly playing right into their hands.
Excuse me? It's liberals that are howling for the censure and impeachment of our government, and over less intrusive programs than the garden variety tele-marketer. It is no accident that the communications between and from terrorists have an eerie resemblance to Democratic talking points.
Just ask yourself: Does the US have more or less international influence now or immediately post 9-11?
More. Consider that both OBL and Saddam were counting on the political weakness of Clinton style foreign policy to determine their own futures. Through a burst bubble, 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq, Katrina, filibuster attempts, fights over taxes, and subterfuge from his own CIA, Bush has maintained a steady course through thick and mostly thin. For once the US can be counted on to follow through with promises. The international community may not like us, but for a change they respect us.
JaO said...
ReplyDeletebart: Even if this allegation was true, 18 USC 121, Section 2709 requires the telecoms to provide the government with "the name, address, length of service, and local and long distance toll billing records of a person or entity" when requested by the FBI for counter terrorism investigations and this information may be shared with other government departments for that same purpose.
Section 2709 does not apply. The FBI has nothing to do with this program.
And you know this how? I don't know and neither do you.
I presented this statute merely to show that there is no expectation of privacy concerning these records, that any private individual can gain access to the same records and the Congress intended to require telecoms to provide this information to the government for counter terrorism activities.
For the government to have invoked 2709, which was designed to cover specific, targeted requests, senior FBI officials would have had to certify that every phone call in the country was "relevant" to a terrorism investigation. No such certification was made, nor could it have been.
2709(c) merely requires that the FBI certify that the requested "records sought are relevant to an authorized investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities."
This provision does not require individualized evidence of any type to obtain these records.
There is no bar against a mass request of all records so long as these records are being used for this purpose.
Another pesky problem with Section 2709 is that a federal court has ruled it to be unconstitutional. That ruling is pending appeal.
Really? Did it violate Article II?
I had not performed a case law check on the statute. Do you have the cite for the decision? I would enjoy reading it.
bart, this is your second notice that you are spreading disinformation about 18 USC 2709. Please stop.
You are the one who is assuming facts not in evidence and misinterpreting 2709(c).
Once again, I never posted that 2709(c) actually applied to this case because we have no information on the facts of the transaction nor the actual legal authority NSA or any other involved agencies are using. I merely pointed out the government's powers under this statute and how the NSA is in fact taking less information that it would otherwise be entitled to under this statute.
bart: Anyone can gain this same call data for a fee.
That is not true.
The only way to do this is to buy information obtained fraudulently from scam artists. There are "services" purporting to sell such data, but they are not legitimate. Whatever data they do have is probably not legal. See this consumer warning from Sprint/NEXTEL.
There is no restriction under the USC to keep anyone from obtaining these records. See 18 USC 121, s. 2702(c).
However, these are also business records and the property of the telecoms. The telecoms can restrict the dissemination of these records (except for the mandatory disclosure in 2709 for counterterrorism) if they wish, but no law prevents this. As a customer, you have no legal rights to keep the telecoms from disseminating their records.
bart: Anyone can gain reverse telephone number identity information as well.
That statement is actually true.
The reverse-lookup information is readily obtainable from open commercial sources, which gives lie to the adminstration's disingenuous claim that because this particular NSA program only collects the phone numbers, the records are somehow "anonymized." As USA Today reported (and as bart points out himself here), it is a trivial matter for the NSA to match the legitimately obtained directory names and addresses back to the phone numbers.
The Administration has not even acknowledged the existence of the program described by USA Today. When exactly did they make any legal arguments on its behalf? Almost all the arguments have been on the blogs.
To start, this is a flat out lie. The USA Today reported that these records do not include the identity of the owner of either phone number or the persons actually using these numbers.
ReplyDeleteBogus. Please, at the soonest available moment, google your phone number. Google your parent's phone number. The gist is that it is irrelevant whether or not a phone number has a name tied to it - that protects nothing. The ONLY thing that protects a phone number from a good google search is being unlisted...but being unlisted only applies to the public at large. Law enforcement or the Jack Booted Thugs of BushCo can get right to the name associated with even an unlisted number without a warrant.
This is a clear violation of privacy and an indication that the pen register law needs to be fixed as well. Funny how it is that companies managed to work and make money before there were wholesale privacy violations with shared databases, purchase tracking, etc. Imagine that for literally about 500 years companies got by without needing to violate your privacy. Time to get back to that way of business.
Shooter's link to some "article" with no byline or author, dateline Brussels and out of some outfit in Bahrain, about weapons grade uranium in Iran is a hoot. Talk about "useful idiots", Shooter, if you are that stupid and gullible, I almost feel sorry for you. Rest assured the rest of us aren't.
ReplyDeleteCould it be this story?
ReplyDeleteIran is back in the spotlight for its alleged nuclear weapons program, and this time the international pressure to dismantle will be strong. United Nations nuclear inspectors have found traces of extremely highly enriched uranium in Iran, of a purity reserved for use in a nuclear bomb. Iran claims that its military had indeed enriched uranium but only to create unsophisticated models for use by civilians. The recently found highly enriched uranium, Iran says, was contaminated before it reached Iran's borders. Washington, however, remains skeptical and is pressuring the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) to trace the origins of the enriched uranium. With Pakistan’s ‘father of the nuclear bomb’ Abdul Qadeer Khan’s recent confession that he secretly sold uranium to Iran, and Libya’s resolution to dismantle its nuclear program, "the trap is sprung," says a senior US official. Iran will have to allow persistent inquiry of its nuclear agenda, whether it likes it or not. – YaleGlobal
Alarm Raised Over Quality of Uranium Found in Iran
Craig S. Smith
The New York Times, 11 March 2004
Get a brian, moran. And learn to use google, goober.
Goober says...Excuse me? It's liberals that are howling for the censure and impeachment of our government
ReplyDeleteBzzzt! Wrong answer. Quite a few conservatives are as well. Smarter ones that you, perhaps. And the xenophobic right.
I know there aren't that many liberals here, but if all of us shout, "BOO!" at the same time, Bart and Goober just might be scared shitless and run away.
ReplyDelete6I've got to wonder if the age thing has something to do with it. I grew up in the 50s and 60s and had the fear of a nuclear holocaust drummed into all of us at the time. Perhaps this explains why I have a more jaded and fatalistic, and less hysterical outlook on the possibility of a dirty bomb going off in my backyard. Not something I want. After 9/11 I was in shock, like most of the nation. It was no WMD attack, but it was no joke either. NYC is my home town and I have family there. I'll bet neither Bart or Shooter do. It took awhile to get over it, but I did, probably because of when and where I grew up. The irony is that another global warming, super charged hurricane or bird flu epidemic is going to make 9/11 look small by comparison, again. Like Katrina did. I have to think these guys just want to kill brown people, especially if they have oil. They both seem a little hysterical to me.
ReplyDeleteanon says:
ReplyDeleteShooter's link to some "article" with no byline or author, dateline Brussels and out of some outfit in Bahrain, about weapons grade uranium in Iran is a hoot. Talk about "useful idiots", Shooter, if you are that stupid and gullible, I almost feel sorry for you. Rest assured the rest of us aren't.
So let me see if I've got this straight.... you're going to castigate me for a marginal source, while you don't have the brass to even pick an unverifiable handle?
If you choose to get off your butt and check the reliability of the story by say, googling "iran weapons grade" in less than a second you'll get verification. Meanwhile consider if that lame attempt at throwing stones while demonstrating a distinct lack of intellectual integrity was worth it.
I know it's a no-brainer and assumed that everyone knows what it is that we're supposed to be losing when privacy is threatened. In many cases, it's even assumed that privacy is one of those "things" that people throughout history have found to be the most important thing in life.
ReplyDeleteMaybe "privacy" is something that's a remnant of the "ghost in the machine" mentality that builds on the idea of a soul inhabiting a body. Maybe it's a rancid leftover of the Protestant idea of religious conscience. We could even get Hindu about it and talk about the spark that animates every human and never dies.
One historical note about public versus private is that the notion of privacy, at least in western societies, has not been the preeminent notion of being who one is. In past ages, being seen by others and acting in public spaces was the way that we are who we are. The notion of going home and only there achieving true personhood was not even a question.
The modern notion of privacy only begins to take shape in the second half of the 19th century--coinciding interestingly with the rise of industrialization. As industrial capitalism progressed, westerners retreated further and further away from the public spehere and further and further into the sanctity of the home.
There have been numerous attempts to recover that older sense of personhood. Nazi Germany's penchant public displays of power and mass rallies were such attempts. The 60s so-called counter-culture movement also displayed aspects of this communal nature of personhood. There have been others. For Xtians, at least, the notion of church and the body of Christ represents a way of achieving this higher personhood.
With the regimentation and rationalization of modern life, it seems that people find themselves unable to achieve any real sense of being who they are in public life. Public life is merely the empty space that is inhabited by largely anonymous beings carrying out routinized activities that maintain the functioning of a larger entity meant simply to provide the basic necessities that support the far more important world that is entered via privacy.
When people talk about an expectation of privacy, therefore, they generally feel that something as important as their life itself is being threatened. That some are willing to allow some of this privacy to be taken over by the government post-911 in order to protect that very privacy makes a lot of sense. For others, however, that entrance of the government into our privacy is just one more way that the machinery of modern life hopes to erode and destroy that very thing that supposedly makes us who we are.
Paul Rosenberg said...
ReplyDeleteSo, let's see. Bush lost New Orleans
Shooter - Right. Blame Bush for everything, while taking no responsibility for anything.
Rosenberg - Did I do that? No. If course not. I didn't even say anything about Bush in the post Shooter0-4-2 was responding to. But I did implicitly acknowledge the obvious--that it's almost always the case that many people share responsibility for both success and failure.
Yep, Rosenberg says Bush lost New Orleans, not we, not us, not local officials, just Bush. Apparently liberals haven't figured out the "being on record" thing. Yes Rosenberg, by your own words, you did exactly that.
Further Lessons In Conservative Blameshifting
In the real world, no one doubts that the federal government has responsibility for dealing with major disasters.
Do you mean to say that local officials have no role? No responsibility? That FEMA is the complete and total repository of all emergency knowledge regarding wildfires, tornadoes, hail, hurricanes, earthquakes, volcano eruptions, plagues of locusts, and flooding? In all the far flung states from Anchoarge to Key West?
This must be one of those spots where you are "implicitly"... "acknowledging the obvious"?
Man what a great cover line. Any time a mistake is made, you can just say "I was implicitly acknowledging the obvious".
Shooter - Tell you what, We'll take responsibility for holding up rescue people in sexual harrassment seminars, if you folks take responsibility for blocking food and water to the people at the Superdome.
Rosenberg - No, sorry, that's not what anyone in the real world is talking about.
Gee what a surprise. But actually it is what the real world is talking about. The reason Katrina is pointed out over and above all the other hurricanes that are inflicted upon the world, is days and days of video taken of suffering people. Days and days. It left an indelible impression that every liberal in the world would like to hang around Bush's neck like an albatross. But isn't it amazing that the Democratic Governor actually blocked aid from the Red Cross and Salvation Army to these suffering people while you try and ignore all those days 24/7 of suffering poor people.
We're talking about Bush's total disengagement, as shown in the videotape, described, for example, by USA Today:
Video shows Bush, Chertoff warned before Katrina
From staff and wire reports
WASHINGTON — On the day before Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, the head of the National Hurricane Center told President Bush that the city's levees were "a very, very grave concern," a newly released videotape shows.
And you expected what exactly? For Bush and Chertoff to throw themselves on the levee in an effort to protect the city? Maybe that was something you are going to say was "implicitly acknowledging the obvious"? The didn't do everything perfectly, but they damn sure didn't lose New Orleans. The Democrats did that before and after the hurricane.
Today in WAPO:
ReplyDeleteFired Officer Believed CIA Lied to Congress
Friends Say McCarthy Learned of Denials About Detainees' Treatment
A senior CIA official, meeting with Senate staff in a secure room of the Capitol last June, promised repeatedly that the agency did not violate or seek to violate an international treaty that bars cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment of detainees, during interrogations it conducted in the Middle East and elsewhere.
But another CIA officer -- the agency's deputy inspector general, who for the previous year had been probing allegations of criminal mistreatment by the CIA and its contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan -- was startled to hear what she considered an outright falsehood, according to people familiar with her account. It came during the discussion of legislation that would constrain the CIA's interrogations.
Shooter...
ReplyDeleteRe: Moussauoi's laptop remained closed...
Interesting rant, but not particularly relevant to much of anything.
The records involved are less comprehensive than an ordinary phone book's....
You continue to focus on this one situation, which by itself is not particulary troubling. I think I've been clear that I'm speaking much more generally and of much larger issues.
Iran has been found with near weapons grade uranium... people with your point of view are relying on the UN to curtail that possibility and failing miserably.
Oh really? And I said this where? I see you're resorting to the straw man argument again. You've been called on that about a half dozen times on this thread alone. It's pretty easy to win an argument when you get to advance your opponents viewpoint also. Why don't we all stop contributing and you can prop up your straw man and then knock him down.
And the Iran situation illustrates my point perfectly. Imagine if after 9-11, Bush announced a world-wide effort to rid the world of nuclear weapons in the hands of dangerous regimes. With the world's sympathy behind us, Bush could have united the major world governments behind him and I seriously doubt we would be where we are wrt to Iran and North Korea.
This is a perfect example of how Bush badly mis-played his hand.
And finally, in response to your closing rant about liberals, impeachment, etc. I can see that you confuse love of country with loyalty to the present government. When the government jeopardizes the principles of the country, it's time for the citizens to speak out. That's why you see people from all points on the political spectrum turning away from this particular government.
Geroge W. Bush made it clear where he stands when he said wrt the Constitution: “It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!”
So Shooter, where do you stand? With George W. Bush or with the Constitution of the United States? That may be stark, but that is how I view it.
(and to anon at 12:04, thanks for the kudos, but I'm lucky if I can spill out a cogent thought once or twice a week).
McCain vigorously defended his support for the war in Iraq while saying that opponents have a moral duty to challenge the wisdom of a conflict that has exacted a huge toll on the nation.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who is not familiar with the late comedian Al Kelly who specialized in doubletalk (hilarious) should take the time to research him.
He's back now in the form of McCain. Not half as funny but twice the doubletalk.
I think statistics and polls are nothing more than manipulations based on question phrasing and the order in which they are asked.
ReplyDeleteI rejoice when I see the Shrub's "numbers" plummeting but the real test will be in the voting booth. We can not rely on polls, we must stay active and diligent in our efforts to unseat the neocon's in the upcoming election.
Good luck w/your book :)
Al Kelly, the double-talker, used to live in the Jackson Hotel. Friday nights, he'd go to this kosher restaurant called Marron's, and you hear him ordering, double-talk: `I'll have a fine with a drell and poimin, with a leetle slice of bleave hove.'
ReplyDeleteMcCain Translation: I consider justice good but those who oppose it have a moral obligation to do so.
Or, more apt, People have a moral obligation to oppose evil, but I viogrously support and condone it.
THIS vs. "Page Six Ethics Are Endorsed by Jesus Christ" Hillary Clinton?
That's the choice?
Let's band together now to try to save the Fourth Amendment. It may not be enough to save the country but at least it's a start.
Oh Boy. I see I am not the only moral absolutist around. There's another and to tell you the truth, I really like the company!
ReplyDeleteDon't fail to read this article (who adds people to that "Lions" list headed by Senator Feingold?---this guy should be put there immediately and get honorary mention because although he's not a politician, wow, is he ever a Lion!)
Condoleezza Rice at Boston College? I quit
DEAR Father Leahy,
I am writing to resign my post as an adjunct professor of English at Boston College.
I am doing so -- after five years at BC, and with tremendous regret -- as a direct result of your decision to invite Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to be the commencement speaker at this year's graduation.
Many members of the faculty and student body already have voiced their objection to the invitation, arguing that Rice's actions as secretary of state are inconsistent with the broader humanistic values of the university....
But I am not writing this letter simply because of an objection to the war against Iraq. My concern is more fundamental. Simply put, Rice is a liar.
She has lied to the American people knowingly, repeatedly, often extravagantly over the past five years, in an effort to justify a pathologically misguided foreign policy.
Spreading the truth serum, it's been abundantly clear for a long while that Bono is a thoroughly corrupt human being.
Why doesn't anyone just come out an say so?
I'll start. Bono is a thoroughly corrupt human being and deserves no support from anyone about anything.
devoman says:
ReplyDeleteRe: Moussauoi's laptop remained closed...
Interesting rant, but not particularly relevant to much of anything.
Of course it is. Moussaoui's civil protections are directly related to 3000 dead on 9/11. It's the relationship most are studiously ignoring. Abstract ideas about civil liberties have real world consequences that cannot be ignored.
I think I've been clear that I'm speaking much more generally and of much larger issues.
After perusing your previous two posts, all you say is "You seem to be willing to sacrifice many of the principles of our republic to gain a small edge in the fight against terrorism."
Vague platitudes don't contribute much to the conversation. You're going to have to be a bit more specific.
Bush announced a world-wide effort to rid the world of nuclear weapons in the hands of dangerous regimes. With the world's sympathy behind us, Bush could have united the major world governments behind him and I seriously doubt we would be where we are wrt to Iran and North Korea.
This is a perfect example of how Bush badly mis-played his hand.
That's a lovely thought that has no basis in reality. Not only does "ridding the world of nukes" have nothing to do with 9/11, are you saying that the US should just shrug off the attack as nothing to be concerned with, other than as an opportunity to play victim? You might as well put a sign on the Statue of Liberty saying "please sir, may I have another?" And lastly, as of 9/11, the official international line on Iran and North Korea was that they don't have nukes. That puts a crimp in the old fantasy doesn't it?
< I can see that you confuse love of country with loyalty to the present government. When the government jeopardizes the principles of the country, it's time for the citizens to speak out. That's why you see people from all points on the political spectrum turning away from this particular government.>
Like it or not this administration represents us for another two and a half years. You may want to represent to the world that you don't accept it, but it matters not. Bush is still the one they will talk to. The net effect of your dissent is only to undermine the credibility of the rest of the country. Thanks for nothing.
jao: And I suggest that such rhetorical excess on a matter that you are this wrong about hurts your interests politically.
ReplyDeletejao, I don't have any political interests. I already said that from the first minute I decided to see what was on the blogosphere (less than six months ago), it was for one reason and one reason only: my interest in the Fourth Amendment.
That is why I was hoping so desperately that Janice Rogers Brown would be nominated for the Supreme Court.
Say what you will everyone, but I laboriously studied her decisions and I concluded she understands the Fourth Amendment probably better than anyone else in America.
"A man's home is his castle" and "government keep your mitts off eveyone" are positions perfectly consistent with a society in which laws are enforced properly and order is maintained.
The Patriot Act is in its essence a gigantic violation of the Fourth Amendment. That's why I viscerally despised it from the beginning, and if anyone actually took the time to read that entire act and has half a brain so would he.
jao, you are against Roe, are you not?
And you have no understanding, imo, of the Fourth Amendment.
I think it was Billmon who discussed Hobbes at length but Billmon came to the wrong conclusion on that.
In short, I think he concluded that the choice was between believing Hobbes was right about the "state of nature" and Robert Bork.
It's not. I think Hobbes is absolutely right about the life in the "state of nature" but the antidote isn't Bork. It's the United States Constitution.
Yours is a case which, respectfully, strikes me as an unhappy one. A superior intellect, a gift for analysis, great legal knowledge, all the tools with which to come to the right conclusions and yet you don't.
You keep waiting for a President who has declared himself above all laws to go tell it to a judge.
Meanwhile people are dying, being tortured, innocent people are rotting in detainment centers as their families lives are also ruined, we are entering a police state, Iraq is now in the process, in the name of "regime change", of establishing a Death Squad Military Dictatorhip, and America is quickly going down the drain and taking traditional "American values" along with it.
You keep waiting for that telling it to a judge. But your vigil reminds me a lot of Nero's fiddle. Others here have noticed Rome is burning.
Just thought you would all like to know- Jason Leopold is sounding more credible in his assertion that Rove has been indicted. He was on KPFK today and stated categorically he will out any sources who have misled him, and said he made that clear to the sources.
ReplyDeleteMy Dear Paul Rosenberg,
ReplyDeleteAs you may have realized, in many ways I am a tremendous fan of yours.
However, here's a very simple way to demonstrate why you have "gone wrong" despite your great potential :)
You write Socialism means public ownership of the basic means of production.
Paul, although this may not be the single most false statement ever made, it's certainly a contender for one of the top five.
That simple misunderstanding of socialism lies at the heart of your entire political philosophy.
Let me be so bold as to correct you.
Socialism means "GOVERNMENT ownership of the basic means of production."
You have this wacky notion (sorry my dear) that Government can be put on the "honor system" and counted on, once it grabs everything, to distribute it benevolently back to "the people." The same "people", btw, that it grabbed it from in the first place.
Tell me Paul. Where did you ever see any evidence that Government could be put on the "honor" system? In Versailles? I think not. It's never worked once in history. (See: Nature, human.)
I hope you read the entirety of Richard Dreyfuss' speech to the National Press Corp a few months ago.
He's wrong in a lot of his conclusions, but nobody is more right in recognizing that power corrupts and that those who have power never relinquish it voluntarily.
And that is precisely why you have to be very, very careful about what "institutions" you put in place and what power you vest in those institutions and you have to be very careful to make them resistant to the possibility (probability) of being corrupted by random individuals.
Hope you read his speech. It's a classic.
The problem, Paul, is deep down, however sophisticated you are, you're too "naive" and not "cynical" enough.
By "cynical" here I mean "realist."
Anyway, once you are in a Dictatorship, worrying about whether it's a capitalist Dictator (a contradiction in terms in my own opinion) or socialist Dictator (not a contradiction in terms in my own opinion) is like worrying about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Which brings us back to the Fourth Amendment.
The REAL contradiction in terms is Dictatorship and the Fourth Amendment.
shooter,
ReplyDeleteHow about , "bin ladden determined to attack the U.S." or the intell obtained on sept. 10, not translated until sept, 12 that said zero hour?
If you and your fellow bedwetters had their way, we would erect a superdome over the US declare bush king and nuke the world so we could be safe from evil doers. After all, civil rights don't really help you if you are dead! You are such a freekin coward! Adults understand that we can keep this countries principals intact and keep it safe at the same time. The constitution and the bill of rights are not subject to change because of national security, or because you are a scared little child. You want to change the foundations of this country because of our national security, then they have won because it is no longer America. Alought you would like to have it another way , I think most Americans would rather fight to the death with our principals intact, rather than subvert them for some percieved "safety". WTF is wrong with you?
By the way,
"The net effect of your dissent is only to undermine the credibility of the rest of the country. Thanks for nothing."
I can't believe that you must be reminded that this is the freakin' USA! Dissent is the most patriotic, American thing you can do! Get out if you don't like people "undermining" our disaster of a president! Damn it feels good to be an AMERICAN!
Shooter, I've explained my views on this topic as clearly as I can. I don't think there's much point explaining further.
ReplyDeleteHowever, one thing you said simply astounds me. That is you don't understand the connection between getting rid of nuclear weapons in the hands of dangerous regimes and 9/11. Let me explain that to you and maybe you'll see the bigger picture.
9/11 taught us we are vulnerable to asymmetric warfare. There is no dispute about that; everybody gets it.
Given that and given that we have finite resources, we have to choose carefully where we spend our effort and resources. Bush and company would like to cloud your mind and have you think of all WMD as representing the same danger. But nuclear weapons present a far greater danger to us than chemical weapons.
Post 9/11 Bush spoke to us about an "axis of evil" consisting of Iraq, Iran, and North Korea. Iraq was believed to have chemical weapons (and this was a perfectly reasonable belief at the time since we knew where he got them from). But there was very little evidence of an ongoing nuclear program in Iraq and practically speaking Iraq presented no imminent threat to us.
On the other hand, N. Korea especially was known to be developing their nuclear program.
Now roll forward 4 years. Saddam Hussein is in jail, our military is tied up fighting an insurgency in Iraq, we are spending hundreds of billions of dollars on a war that is difficult to extricate ourselves from, North Korea most likely has one or more nukes, and Iran is well on its way and our ability to project power over them is small.
You can believe GWB played his cards masterfully if you like. The rest of us don't think so.
That's why we think our danger is much greater today than after 9/11.
Finally, to tie this back to the main subject of this thread, let me state what should be obvious to you, but you choose to ignore because doing so fuels your self-righteous anger.
Most contributors to this thread (and certainly Mr. Greenwald) have not argued against the need for wiretapping as well as the other surveillance activities the NSA engages in. Rather, it is doing these activities extra-constitutionally and without oversight that is the burr under our saddle.
If we had an administration that understood and respected the Constitution we might not be so alarmed. But this adminsistration has consistently moved to expand its unchecked power at every opportunity and often with audacious and unprecedented arguments.
Goober says ....So let me see if I've got this straight.... you're going to castigate me for a marginal source, while you don't have the brass to even pick an unverifiable handle?
ReplyDeleteIf you choose to get off your butt and check the reliability of the story by say, googling "iran weapons grade" in less than a second you'll get verification. Meanwhile consider if that lame attempt at throwing stones while demonstrating a distinct lack of intellectual integrity was worth it.
That's what I did, Goober.
Virtually the identical story has been circulating in "the press" for about two years. Don't you find that a bit odd?
And "anonymous sources" are often used by members of "the press" in their stories, Goober. Haven't you been paying attention? Do people really have to spell everything out for you? You are a hoot and a goob. Just for fun, try googling "WMDs in Iraq".
Eyes WIde Open said...
ReplyDeleteMy Dear Paul Rosenberg,
You write Socialism means public ownership of the basic means of production.
Paul, although this may not be the single most false statement ever made, it's certainly a contender for one of the top five.
Brainwashed.
Paul Rosenberg
ReplyDeletesaid...
Quite a lot actually, none of it factual except the history lesson on the origin and history of FEMA.
So we start with a personal insult, go to lecture mode and finish up with a little patronizing. My work here is done.
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDeletePaul Rosenberg
said...
Quite a lot actually, none of it factual except the history lesson on the origin and history of FEMA.
So we start with a personal insult, go to lecture mode and finish up with a little patronizing. My work here is done.
Is that a promise? If you keep that promise, we will all give you a hearty "Masterfuuly done!"
And pray for smarter trolls.
Shooter242 @ 6:16 said...
ReplyDeleteNicely summed up the basic exit strategy of neo-conservatives in Iraq and elsewhere. As Bart would say, "It's been the basic template since Vietnam."
Paul... The people polled responded by favoring Clinton 51-30, and I asked, quite fairly, I think, what major metropolitan area Clinton had lost
ReplyDeleteHouston?
paul rosenberg, your review of Glenn's book was most excellent.
ReplyDeleteCan't wait to read it!
JaO said...
ReplyDeleteMe: Section 2709 does not apply. The FBI has nothing to do with this program.
bart: And you know this how? I don't know and neither do you.
Well, we know from what was reported in USA Today that the disclosure by the telcos to NSA was "voluntary." If it were not, and the government wanted to invoke Section 2709, it would have been compulsory.
If the USA Today reporter knew 2709 from a hole in the ground, he would have mentioned it. The press is the last place you want to get legal analysis.
Qwest would not have been able to refuse in such a circumstance.
This is your first good point Congrats!
Of course, invoking 2709 would have required the FBI director to certify that every phone call anyone makes within this country is "relevant" to an anti-terror investigation. No evidence is required to support such certification, but it is supposed to be true.
Based on my understanding of social network analysis from Krebs and the other authors linked here, all the numbers in the nation would be required. I still don't see the problem here.
You said you liked Wilki, didn't you?
ReplyDeleteSocialism is an economic system in which the means of production are owned and controlled collectively or a political philosophy advocating such a system. This control may be either direct, exercised through popular collectives such as workers' councils or community councils,
Yeah, real practical. Very likely to work out well. Ho ho ho. See Hobbes.
or it may be indirect, exercised on behalf of the people through the State.
I don't know how to do strikethrough, or I would have put a line through State and substituted Versailles.
In Marxist theory, socialism is the transitional stage between capitalism and communism, in which "the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat" and the stateless, classless society of communism has not yet been achieved.
The "stateless, classless society of communism", the other side of the transition, came to pass and it was really cute, wasn't it?
Don't say Marx didn't have it right. He wrote the book. You are just an interpreter.
He had it right. Socialism is nothing but communism before the revolution and communism has been tried and it failed. BIG TIME. Veddy veddy big.
Let's agree to move on, shall we friend, forget which of us is "brainwashed" and try to salvage what we can of the Fourth Amendment.
Peace.
devoman says:
ReplyDeleteHowever, one thing you said simply astounds me. That is you don't understand the connection between getting rid of nuclear weapons in the hands of dangerous regimes and 9/11. Let me explain that to you and maybe you'll see the bigger picture.
Son, I can see NYC from my deck. Nobody needs to tell me about the impact of a rogue nuke. As I've said elsewhere, this is the international community's big chance to demonstrate their power of persuasion regarding Iran. How's that working for you so far?
Most contributors to this thread (and certainly Mr. Greenwald) have not argued against the need for wiretapping as well as the other surveillance activities the NSA engages in. Rather, it is doing these activities extra-constitutionally and without oversight that is the burr under our saddle.
Oh please. Excuse me if I say this is not believable. Have the contributors made any suggestions about enabling such a program while maintaining secrecy from the objects of the program? Hopefully everyone here understands that when discussing a plan to thwart terrorism in public, the plan is no longer viable? Congress has demonstrated repeatedly that it cannot keep a secret. Informing them of a plan is the surest way to inform the opposition what not to do in the future. Is that your aim?
If you have an idea let's hear it.
through popular collectives such as workers' councils or community councils
ReplyDeleteCouncils. Gotta love them.
Efforts to build unified Iraqi government snagged
A member of an influential Shiite alliance bloc is threatening to form a new government unilaterally if rival groups don't scale back their demands.
My lover, the great dictator
ReplyDeleteThe ex-mistress of Venezuela’s leader, darling of Britain’s left, predicts an autocratic disaster, reports Tony Allen-Mills
THERE are many reasons why Herma Marksman still looks back fondly on the 10 years she spent as the mistress of Hugo Chavez, who at the time was an ambitious lieutenant-colonel on his way to becoming the president of Venezuela.
“I keep the best memories of him close to me,” Marksman said last week. “He’s the kind of man that showers you with flowers and chocolates, serenades you with romantic songs and never forgets your birthday. People say he is a violent man, but he never raised a hand or his voice to me.”
Yet Marksman’s tone changed when she talked about his role as the leader of the so-called Bolivarian revolution — the populist Latin American phenomenon that has turned Chavez into a global icon of anti-American agitation.
For almost a decade in the 1980s and 1990s, Marksman encouraged her military lover as he used her home to plot a coup against Venezuela’s decadent civilian government. The couple shared a dream, she said, of “a prosperous Venezuela where justice would reign”.
That dream, for her at least, is shattered. “Now you can’t trust him,” she went on bitterly in her first interview with any foreign media. “He is imposing a fascist dictatorship. A totalitarian regime is coming because he doesn’t believe in democratic institutions. Hugo controls all the powers.”
Oh dear. Another "populist" dream shattered. I'm shocked I tell you, shocked. Not.
Can we get the number of his Swiss bank accounts through the Freedom of Information Act? What? They don't have one there?
re Shooter's comment:
ReplyDeleteSon, I can see NYC from my deck.
Please don't patronize me. And most NYC residents I know can't stand the way Bush used 9/11 for his personal political benefit.
But the beautiful thing about this country is that you are free to support him all you want. One thing we can all be thankful for, however, is that you won't be voting for him for president again.
re Shooter's comment:
ReplyDeleteSon, I can see NYC from my deck.
1) Please don't patronize me.
2) I can see NYC from my tube. That doesn't make your argument any stronger.
3) Most NYC residents I know can't stand the way Bush used 9/11 for his personal political benefit. I'll wager he is less popular in NYC than in the nation overall.
But the beautiful thing about this country is that you are free to support him all you want. One thing we can all be thankful for, however, is that you won't be voting for him for president again.
Sorry for the double post.
ReplyDeleteBart said... Based on my understanding of social network analysis from Krebs and the other authors linked here, all the numbers in the nation would be required. I still don't see the problem here.
ReplyDeleteBart cites Krebs, Maynard G. I cite Gillis, D.
EWO,
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
Paul Rosenberg said...
ReplyDeleteBe Careful What You Wish For...
I actually learn interesting stuff from the smarter trolls. Even Bart and I are in agreement on some things not entirely unrelated to this topic. His bias there is that this relates to his income as a DUI defense attorney.
Devoman said...
ReplyDeletere Shooter's comment:
Son, I can see NYC from my deck.
Anyone on the west bank of the Hudson can see NYC from their windows or terrace or front stoop. I though only Californians had decks. Hot tub, too?
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteThanks for all the great coverage. It doesn't matter which political party you're from, what the Bush administration is doing is wrong and bad for America.
For anyone interested in writing the CEO of their telecommunications company (Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, & BellSouth), please refer to the contact information for the CEOs on my blog, including some email addresses. I don't want to post this elsewhere and get other bloggers in trouble. I mean, isn't sharing confidential email addresses a no-no? (However, it doesn't require a warrant, as far as I know.)
http://laikoa.blogspot.com/
{I'm sorry. I can't help myself.}
ReplyDeleteShooter said:
Have the contributors made any suggestions about enabling such a program while maintaining secrecy from the objects of the program? Hopefully everyone here understands that when discussing a plan to thwart terrorism in public, the plan is no longer viable?
While I certainly don't like Bush, I am also not one to go out of my way to villify him if I think he is doing his job. I, and most of the people you are arguing with, Shooter, genuinely and sincerely don't believe that George W. Bush is doing his job, as far as that job consists of "...preserving and protecting the Constitution of the United States..."
Please stop insulting our sincerity and patriotism.
When Bush starts owning up to the problems, we might start listening to his solutions.
Had Bush gone to the Congress and said - "Hey, I need some extra leeway here becasue this enemy is somewhat unique and I dont think our current methods are going to be effective..." (Oh wait, he did, we passed the Patriot Act, twice...) I would have been more than happy to hear about it, even after the fact. But the fact is, he, and you in your posts about Congress' leaking and "can't keep a secret" are treating the CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES and the JUDICIAL SYSTEM OF THE UNITED STATES as if they are PARTY TO THE ENEMY. Congress is ON OUR SIDE. The US Judicial System is ON OUR SIDE. George Bush is not the only person fighting the war on terror, he's just the only person who thinks he's the only person.
If there are problems with the system, let's fix them - using the current means available. Instead, the Unitary Executive (and where the hell did that come from all of a sudden?) has decided that it is up to him, and him alone, to change all the rules, and declare himself above them, to boot.
I don't want to see Osama win, or care overly much if the Democrats win. I care that there doesn't seem to be any custodiet-ing of ipsos custodes. And if Osama and his gang of lunatic assholes make us betray our founding principles, we have only ourselves to blame.
PS -
Paul - great point above about FEMA and people who are still in favor of Bush and Co. - I try and avoid throwing stones in here, but if you can bring yourself to think that Bush is better than Clinton on this one area, your porch light is definitely flickering.
and to whoever made the comment about Houston - LOL
Paul, I haven't read Ms. Smith's book, so I will have to address some of the implications of the modern concept of privacy from a framework I am familiar with.
ReplyDeleteThere seem to be two extremes in the current political arena concerning privacy. These are extremes so they'll overstate possible solutions that fall in between the extremes. The first extreme is that of civil libertarians who say that "everything is allowed" (with apolgies to WS Burroughs) and see privacy as a way for people to do anything they want, as long as it's in the privacy of one's home. The second suggests that privacy, while a good, must be channeled and disciplined according to well-worn and traditional means.
The first argument is perhaps a prescription for anarchy. In its more legitimate manifestations, though, it makes an absolute appeal to conscience. It assumes that humans have the right to privacy, limited only by the external laws and the appeals of conscience.
The second argument distrusts individual privacy, believing that most people are prone or disposed to do bad things unless they have some form of social oversight. Many who espouse this view see traditional socialization processes as key to curtailing the excesses that they see humans capable of. Unless people have some form of absolute, eternally verifiable laws, then they will not know how to use their privacy correctly, ie, morally.
This wide spectrum of ways to understand privacy occurs in a historical context of declining models of authority. Modern rationalism since the Enlightenment has made any appeal to authority in ehtical, political, or other matters as continually open to question and critique. Nothing--in a modern, secular society--has an inherent and unquestionable authority.
As such, the invoking of privacy presents certain problems for modern society. Yes, it can shroud abuses and even crimes but it also presents perhaps one of the only alternatives for facing the moral and political issues the modern world evinces. How the US deals with privacy and what restraints and limitations that a surveillance society might provoke are questions that need answer.
Yet another poster shows us why shooter and others are so wrong. To put it in terms the 29% can understand, you are either with the constitution and the bill of rights (us) or you are against them (bush and company). Most people in the USA are with us.
ReplyDeleteMost contributors to this thread (and certainly Mr. Greenwald) have not argued against the need for wiretapping as well as the other surveillance activities the NSA engages in. Rather, it is doing these activities extra-constitutionally and without oversight that is the burr under our saddle.
ReplyDeletePlease.
The 4th Amendment does not require the Executive to obtain warrant either to gather intelligence against foreign groups and their agents in the US or to gather telephone records for any purpose. This is well established in case law.
This is why all the moaning and groaning about lost constitutional rights is a crock.
No one has been able to name a single constitutional right which they have lost to these NSA programs.
Jao, again, there seems to be some confusion here about what a pen register is or is not. The definition that makes sense to me is the following (from a comment at Obsidian Wings):
ReplyDeleteIf the former, it violates the federal "pen register" statute, a pen register being a "device or process which records or decodes dialing, routing, addressing, or signaling information transmitted by an instrument or facility from which a wire or electronic communication is transmitted."
Now what is the splitter that the ATT installed in their secret NSA site but a "device"? It's a device that "records or decodes dialing, routing, addressing, or signaling information".
What am I missing here?
For if the device installed at the secret NSA ATT site is a pen register, then it violates legal statutes when "The Department of Justice has been required for some time to report to Congress the number of pen registers and trap-and-traces," but "in recent years [PDF, see question 10] it declared that information classified."
In other words, the DoJ knows that they are using pen registers, knows that it's illegal and therefore are not reporting them.
Perhaps one can make the case that it's not the splitters that are actually doing the data collection. But that may be a detail that needs further investigation. There's some technological issues that need resolution here, most notably the question related to the infrastructure that the various telcos' phone traffic is over.
As I noted in an earlier comment, when Ma Bell was broken up the baby Bells still had to use the hardware infrastructure that Ma Bell owned. They didn't have any of their own. In the agreement breaking up Ma Bell, the fair use of this infrastrucutre was a large part.
This means that most phone traffic is still being routed thru MaBell hubs. If the NSA has splitters at these hubs, they are using those to capture the phone numbers. In their agreement to turn over the phine numbers, all the telcos did was to give an okay for the NSA to collect the numbers via the splitters.
Most of this is speculation based on limited knowledge. It bears further investigation, however.
Nick:
ReplyDeleteHad Bush gone to the Congress and said - "Hey, I need some extra leeway here becasue this enemy is somewhat unique and I dont think our current methods are going to be effective..." (Oh wait, he did, we passed the Patriot Act, twice...) I would have been more than happy to hear about it, even after the fact.
As you noted, Mr. Bush did go to Congress for changes in the law concerning the gathering of criminal evidence. This is in the Congress' power under Article I.
However, the Courts have universally held that gathering intelligence against foreign groups and their agents in the US is an Article II presidential power. The President need not go to Congress to get its approval to exercise his Constitutional powers.
If there are problems with the system, let's fix them - using the current means available. Instead, the Unitary Executive (and where the hell did that come from all of a sudden?) has decided that it is up to him, and him alone, to change all the rules, and declare himself above them, to boot.
There are no problems with the system apart from an intelligence community waging a war of leaks against the Administration cleaning house in the CIA.
If the Dems in Congress want to have a national debate over whether NSA should be spying on al Qaeda, bring it on! That is what democracy is supposed to be about.
Bart...No one has been able to name a single constitutional right which they have lost to these NSA programs.
ReplyDeleteWe almost had a contrued right to privacy. Then the conservatives hit the courts. One step up, two steps back with you people.
Bart,
ReplyDeleteListen to Arlen Specter to hear your outright lies and deceit exposed. How do you face yourself at night? I heard one of your buds on the radio today. Needless to say, the bald-faced lies were so outrageous I thought the radio would grow a nose.
According to Think Progress:
[Arlen Specter:] Senate Judiciary Committee Arlen Specter (R-PA) disagreed with that assessment this morning. On Face the Nation, Specter said that Bush and others in the administration “still haven’t complied with the act to inform the full intelligence committees as required by law.”
“[T]here really has to be in our system of law and government, checks and balance, separation of powers, congressional oversight,” Specter added, and “there has been no meaningful congressional oversight on these programs.”
Hey Bart, you may have forgotten but the last right wing idiot(that I'm aware of anyway) to use the term 'Bring it on' probably wishes he never said it.
ReplyDeleteOf course, that maybe wishful thinking on my part since it would require at least a minimal handle on reality and a bit of introspection-qualities I seriously doubt Bush possesses.
I can tell by the way you write that you're fairly intelligent. Doesn't it chafe you in the least that you're constantly having to support such a dolt?
If it wasn't so pathetic and tragic it could be quite funny.
Glenn's blog is the only place I know of right now to attempt some serious examination of the writing of the Bush following bloggers. Is there anyone else who does it or has done it better? I know many, many others touch on this and that but who has tried to dissect it and really understand it?
ReplyDeleteI was just over at the Belmont Club and I could hardly believe the sycophantic and rationalizing nature of the writing and commentary there. There was a definite quasi-religious component with many quotings of the Bible and a lot of reaching way back into obscure places in history. I also got the feeling that Wretchard himself had a Christian missionary background. It was just so weird. A very strange kind of bubble those people live in.
nick says:
ReplyDeleteBut the fact is, he, and you in your posts about Congress' leaking and "can't keep a secret" are treating the CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES and the JUDICIAL SYSTEM OF THE UNITED STATES as if they are PARTY TO THE ENEMY. Congress is ON OUR SIDE. The US Judicial System is ON OUR SIDE.
Is the problem here that you don't believe Congress leaks, or you don't like the consequence of leaking pointed out? Either is just ignoring reality. I don't believe leakers are in league with the terrorists, but they certainly are useful to them. You may not like that characterization, but that makes it no less true.
George Bush is not the only person fighting the war on terror, he's just the only person who thinks he's the only person.
Ironically, every individual that leaks probably thinks themselves heroic, singlehandedly fighting the oppression, of fighting the war on terror. The important distinction being, that they weren't elected President. Twice.
If there are problems with the system, let's fix them - using the current means available. Instead, the Unitary Executive (and where the hell did that come from all of a sudden?) has decided that it is up to him, and him alone, to change all the rules, and declare himself above them, to boot.
Like it or not the rules got changed on 9/11. More importantly the entire country got a chance to vote on how Bush was doing in 2004. Like it or not Bush won again.
So now here we are after the CIA leaked the NSA program,
Feingold throws out a censure resolution,
The word impeachment echoes around the country,
And all the wrongs attributed to Bush about eavesdropping and wiretapping, and trampling on the Constitution are lies. And you have the gall to blame Bush, while defending the actual criminals in this case?
Sorry Nick, but this just goes to show that the law only means something, when it's useful to you.
Bart, forgive me for piling on but since it was my words you responded to, I can't help myself.
ReplyDeleteYou say...
The 4th Amendment does not require the Executive to obtain warrant either to gather intelligence against foreign groups and their agents in the US or to gather telephone records for any purpose. This is well established in case law.
I'm not an attorney so I clearly can't argue with you on the finer points of constitutional law (although others contributing on this blog are and your posts seem very suspect).
My point is that from a practical point of view it doesn't make any difference. To the layman, Bush's actions (not confined to the NSA situation, but more generally) seem to conflict with the checks and balances and separation of powers we were all taught in high school civics class. As a result, we begin to get alarmed.
Then we see the government acting in ways that seem foreign to us. Condoning torture, throwing citizens in jail without due process, conducting surveillance without judicial oversight, initiating a war by deceiving us with cherry-picked intelligence.
Now, we're really alarmed. And it explains why most Americans don't trust the President (which if you think about it, is a very bad situation). We perceive he lied to us (and repeatedly did so). The facts speak for themselves.
So you can continue splitting legal hairs and calculating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The tide is turning and I think you will be swept away, all the while holding up a law book saying, "wait, no law was broken, see it says right here...."
{snark}
ReplyDeletePolitical opponents of GWB who slanderously insinuate that he would investigate his political opponents are sabotaging our country in a time of war and the president has a duty to investigate them for possible ties to our enemy.
{/snark}
Dos this remind anyone else of the whole "You called us violent - now we must kill you for that slander" reaction to the Denmark cartoons issue.
Even better was a comment on MyPetJawa which said - I paraphrase: "Liberals can't seem to tell the difference between a terrorist who wans to kill themn and a conservative who simply disagrees on political issues. This leads them act in ways that are objectively treasonous and make them as much of a threat to us as as OBL - and they must be destroyed."
ReplyDelete....what?
Wy do you people continue to enguage bart when he says idotic things like,
ReplyDelete"If the Dems in Congress want to have a national debate over whether NSA should be spying on al Qaeda, bring it on! That is what democracy is supposed to be about."
This is the exact kind of childish bs talking point that the Dems let go unchallenged all the time. "The dems are weak on defense because they don't want to spy on Al Qaeda".
"Error," Justice Janet Rogers Brown said in one dissent, "does not improve with repetition. The third time is not the charm."
ReplyDeleteI'm with her. I go by the Constitution itself. If a bunch of SC decisions were wrong, that doesn't mean those wrong interpretations should be written into stone.
Like Kelo.
There's a Trojan Horse which has been snuck into the country. Inside it is a partnership between a Dictator and the forces of technology.
Technology can be used to better mankind or it can be used to destroy it. You can't stop technology but you don't have to let it destroy you.
The Fourth Amendment stands between the army inside the Trojan Horse and Freedom as envisioned in the Constitution.
The only thing that has been scorned around here is the Consitution.
PS. Paul, wrong argument. There are no capitalists in the Beltway. There are crooks. Socialist flavorerd crooks are no better than capitalist flavored crooks.
Crooks are crooks. Crime Sprees are Crime Sprees.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Can't violate this not even if there are terrists roaming around. There have always been barbarians in this world and there were plenty on tap when the Constitution was ratified.
They took that into account. They weren't dummies.
jao: I am going on information such as the following:
ReplyDeleteA Los Angeles Times article dated Dec. 26 quoted an unnamed source as saying the NSA has a "direct hookup" into an AT&T database that stores information about all domestic phone calls, including how long they lasted. [my emphasis]
This "direct hookup," I believe is the hardware splitter I discussed in my original comment.
[C]ommunism has been tried and it failed. BIG TIME. Veddy veddy big.
ReplyDeleteWhere?
Socialism is nothing but communism before the revolution.
I wonder if Sweden knows, and every other functioning social democracy on the planet. They aren't borrowing money like their is no tomorrow. It kills you doesn't it? Much to your chagrin, not literally. You would love the proof your false hypotheses so desperately need.
Anti-Terrorism consultant and ex-CIA operative Larry Johnson on the impending constitutional crisis:
ReplyDeleteHowever, just as with the Patriot Act, what was appropriate in the fall of 2001...namely, an overabundance of caution...is not appropriate nearly five years later. This is what makes the Bush administration's politicization of the Patriot Act and their reaction to the unfolding disclosures about their warrantless wiretapping and sweeping use of data mining so dispiriting.
When the disclosures came out, the administration could have made an argument that would have satisfied all but the most ardent opponents of the Bush presidency. They could have made the argument that they had acted in an overabundance of caution, that they recognized that orders had been illegal in some circumstances, that five years on it was now appropriate to cease certain operations, and that others should be put on a legal footing through negotiations with the Intelligence Committees. This would have been a recognition that the near-post-9/11 world is not the same as the post-9/11 world. We have moved on to the next stage.
Instead of doing this, the administration decided to create a constitutional crisis. It can be characterized as an argument that the near-post-9/11 world will never end until the threat of terrorism is wiped off the face of the planet. This would be an unsatisfying argument even if terrorism were decreasing...which is it not. To find a legal footing for conducting operations that were only appropriate in a near-post-9/11 environment, they have embraced the unitary executive theory. In essence, the administration has said that executive can ignore laws passed by Congress if those laws interfere with the President's duties as commander-in-chief. Thus, the President can ignore ratified treaties, prohibitions on torture, the FISA law, and who knows what else.
If you haven't read about how Rumsfeld and his Pentagon are "privatizing" the war in Iraq through mercenary comapnies, you will find this article by Helena Cobban (covering a WaPo story) of interest:
ReplyDeleteAs I read her piece, the way that it seems to work is this. Each Iraqi government ministry (and perhaps other government entities, as well) has to put out a contract for its own security. These contracts are placed with what she describes as "private security companies", which then hire and organize that ministry's FPS units.
Are the "private security companies" in question Iraqi-owned and run? Or are they owned and run American, British, South African, Israeli, or other foreign "experts" in this field? She doesn't say.
But what does seem clear is that-- in addition to the huge (and notably unsuccessful) efforts the occupation authorities have put into trying to recruit, train, and organize new army and police units for the still-weak Iraqi "government"--the occupation authorities have also been helping to pump arms and money into a large number of FPS units that come under the supervision of "private security companies" (i.e. companies of mercenaries.)
And the funds for these most likely come from the "budgets" of the ministries concerned.
And the result is to establish a large number of parallel and unsupervised mercenary-led forces inside the country.
HWSNBN tries more obfuscation:
ReplyDeleteTo start, this is a flat out lie. The USA Today reported that these records do not include the identity of the owner of either phone number or the persons actually using these numbers. So, you folks calling porn 900 numbers are safe.
The roll HWSNBN think that a phone number doesn't provide any identifying information. He's clueless, of course.
Even if this allegation was true, 18 USC 121, Section 2709 requires the telecoms to provide the government with "the name, address, length of service, and local and long distance toll billing records of a person or entity" when requested by the FBI for counter terrorism investigations and this information may be shared with other government departments for that same purpose.
18 USC 2709:
(b) Required Certification. - The Director of the Federal Bureau
of Investigation, or his designee in a position not lower than
Deputy Assistant Director at Bureau headquarters or a Special Agent
in Charge in a Bureau field office designated by the Director, may
-
(1) request the name, address, length of service, and local and
long distance toll billing records of a person or entity if the
Director (or his designee) certifies in writing to the wire or
electronic communication service provider to which the request is
made that the name, address, length of service, and toll billing
records sought are relevant to an authorized investigation to
protect against international terrorism or clandestine
intelligence activities, provided that such an investigation of a
United States person is not conducted solely on the basis of
activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution
of the United States; ...
So they get the name and address. Yup. Nothing like "no identifying information". So this doesn't apply to the NSA request, does it? At least, if Dubya ain't a liar....
Not to mention, there's been no showing of such certification, not to mention no such certification could be made for the entire
customer base.
But the statute says "perso or entity", doesn't it? Think that the AG walked in with a list of half the U.S. pupolation? But had he done so, it would make the situation clearer, dontcha think?
Cheers,
The troll HWSNBN states dishonestly:
ReplyDeleteGlenn stated that the telecoms were providing identity information. This is a lie.
This very same troll cites in defence of Dubya a statute that requires tecons to hand over "name, address, length of service, and local and long distance toll billing records of a person..."
We ca see who the fool is here.
Cheers,
shooter242 said...
ReplyDeleteAnd yet my point remains. It's very easy to criticize. Anyone can do it. The hard part is coming up with a viable alternative, but as always you have none.
One can only presume that your alternative to tracking terrorists in this country, is leaving them to their own devices and then criticisizing the inevitable results.
It worked that way for 9/11, Good job.
9/11 was on "your" watch, genius. Considering the utter fiasco the so-called GWOT has become, any future terror attacks on US soil are solely attributable to "you" as well. IF those damning little facts are (however unlikely) sticking in your craw, the responsibility to remove the blinkers and look up those "viable alternatives" lies in you, not in me or us via proselytizing. As always it's a horse to water thing, and there's only so many ways we can tell you that currently you're ever so dangerously "dehydrated".
Rabid, actually, IMHO.
I would like to further add that when you, shooter242, say...
ReplyDeleteIt's very easy to criticize. Anyone can do it. The hard part is coming up with a viable alternative
Wrong. The hard part is accepting the criticism AND therefore the responsibility. Bush supporters have done none of the first and therefore, just like the President, feel no need to accept any of the latter. Talk to us once you finally feel Dubya is the bona-fide fuckup 71% of Americans and 99% of the world think he is. Trust me, you don't have to look or think hard for those "viable alternatives".
Well I hope you're all happy. I just read that the SC ruled that anticipatory searches of houses for "contraband" without warrants have been ruled not in violation of the Constitution.
ReplyDeleteThat can only be the first step on a pretty creepy road. First the phones, then the emails, then the living quarters.
What next? Body cavities?
Probably all of you have as little to hide as I do.
Is that really the point?
First congratulations to antiwar.com!
ReplyDeleteThey met their goal and raised $60,000 in seven days from their readers to keep the site going.
Every time I get thoroughly disgusted with human nature, something nice like that happens to prove there are many good people in this world who care deeply about the suffering and unnecessary bloodshed of others.
Not that the news from that site is always so happy. But that's hardly their fault.
Shiite lawmaker threatens to form government unilaterally
BAGHDAD (AP) — Efforts to create a national unity government in Iraq stumbled Sunday as a member of an influential Shiite alliance bloc threatened to form a new government unilaterally if rival groups did not scale back their demands. Sunnis said they may withdraw from the process entirely.
Report: Pakistan supplied nukes to Syria
Defense Tech quotes intelleigence historian Christopher Aid:
ReplyDeleteI'll tell you where this story probably will go next. Notice the USA Today article doesn't mention whether the Internet service providers or cellphone providers or companies operating transatlantic cables like Global Crossing cooperated with the NSA. That's the next round of revelations. The real vulnerabilities for the NSA are the companies. Sooner or later one of these companies, fearing the inevitable lawsuit from the ACLU, is going to admit what it did, and the whole thing is going to come tumbling down...
The newest system being added to the NSA infrastructure, by the way, is called Project Trailblazer, which was initiated in 2002 and which was supposed to go online about now but is fantastically over budget and way behind schedule. Trailblazer is designed to copy the new forms of telecommunications -- fiber optic cable traffic, cellphone communication, BlackBerry and Internet e-mail traffic.
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDeleteWell, I'm certainly not sitting behind a keyboard relying on false premises as a national policy.
What false premises Shooter? Point one out. It's you that's sitting behind your keyboard trying to defend a 29 percenter with falsehoods and misdirection
"* Torture? Nope, nobody supports torture and the ones responsible for Abu Ghraib have been disciplined."
Yes and we still don't know about rendition, and secret black site prisons that have been reported. At least you admit torture happened at Abu Ghraib. Someday when the facts come out you'll have to admit to the rest of it too.
"* Spying on Americans? Not the NSA it seems"
And here you were doing so well with the Abu Ghraib admission.
Washington, D.C., March 11, 2005 - The largest U.S. spy agency warned the incoming Bush administration in its "Transition 2001" report that the Information Age required rethinking the policies and authorities that kept the National Security Agency in compliance with the Constitution's 4th Amendment prohibition on "unreasonable searches and seizures" without warrant and "probable cause," according to an updated briefing book of declassified NSA documents posted today on the World Wide Web.
By JAMES RISEN and ERIC LICHTBLAU
Published: December 16, 2005
"WASHINGTON, Dec. 15 - Months after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials."
Published on Friday, May 12, 2006 by the New York Times
"President Bush has insisted in the past that the government is monitoring only calls that begin or end overseas. But according to USA Today, it has actually been collecting information on purely domestic calls. One source told the paper that the program had produced "the largest database ever assembled in the world."
The government has stressed that it is not listening in on phone calls, only analyzing the data to look for calling patterns. But if all the details of the program are confirmed, the invasion of privacy is substantial. By cross-referencing phone numbers with databases that link numbers to names and addresses, the government could compile dossiers of what people and organizations each American is in contact with."
"Document 24: Statement for the Record of NSA Director Lt Gen Michael V. Hayden, USAF before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, April 12, 2000
In a rare public appearance by the NSA director, Lt. Gen. Michael Hayden outlines the regulatory safeguards and oversight mechanisms that are in place to ensure that the agency's electronic surveillance mission does not infringe upon the privacy of U.S. persons, and to respond to recent allegations that NSA provides intelligence information to U.S. companies.
The agency may only target the communications of U.S. persons within the United States after obtaining a federal court order suggesting that the individual might be "an agent of a foreign power." The number of such cases have been "very few" since the passage of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act in 1978. In cases where the NSA wishes to conduct electronic surveillance on U.S. persons overseas, the agency must first obtain the approval of the Attorney General, who must have probable cause to believe that the individual "is an agent of a foreign power, or a spy, terrorist, saboteur, or someone who aides or abets them." With regard to the unintentional collection of communications to, from, or about U.S. citizens, Hayden stresses that such information is not retained "unless the information is necessary to understand a particular piece of foreign intelligence or assess its importance."
* Arresting Americans without charges? You mean arresting ONE American that became a cause celebe'? Well, maybe Bush will pardon him just like a previous President pardoned actual convicted terrorists."
One that we know of and that is one too many. Bush has already done it once, what's to say he won't do it again? Again at least you admit it happened.
* As for Plame, it seems Wilson was the outer after all. LOL.
Show me the evidence, I'm not just taking your word for it. I will however admit I'm wrong if you have proof.
* As for Iraq, there was no lying. Even Blix said Saddam wasn't forthcoming to the UN just before invasion. I'll believe him a lot sooner than I'd believe you."
BS: Condolezza Rice: We can't afford to have the next smoking gun be a mushroom cloud. Donald Rumsfeld: I know that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction and I know exactly where they are at.
Monday 17 April 2006 By Jason Leopold
Eleven days before President Bush's January 28, 2003, State of the Union address in which he said that the US learned from British intelligence that Iraq had attempted to acquire uranium from Africa - an explosive claim that helped pave the way to war - the State Department told the CIA that the intelligence the uranium claims were based upon were forgeries, according to a newly declassified State Department memo.
* Nuking Iran? Oh please, that's one of the biggest strawmen around. In fact, this is the grand opportunity for UN apologists to demonstrate the effectiveness (or lack of) their institution to corral a chalenger to the status quo. I'm not holding my breath on this one. In fact I predict that the UN drops the ball once again and Iran gets the bomb."
Bush won't rule out nuclear strike on Iran
Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:12am ET165
By Edmund Blair
TEHRAN (Reuters) - President Bush refused on Tuesday to rule out nuclear strikes against Iran if diplomacy fails to curb the Islamic Republic's atomic ambitions.
Asked if options included planning for a nuclear strike, Bush replied: "All options are on the table. We want to solve this issue diplomatically and we're working hard to do so."
Speculation about a U.S. attack has mounted since a report in New Yorker magazine said this month that Washington was mulling the option of using tactical nuclear weapons to knock out Iran's subterranean nuclear sites.
* It seems now, that you folks are the continuous liars. It is all you have to offer. Hysteria, criticism, and fabrication. Yeah, that's real leadership."
Not us Shooter, you and your ilk that support the 29 percenter. I also notice that you, from the party in charge, had not a single positive solution to offer. Only attempted defense of a failed president with failed policies as his only legacy.
It's a good thing they did raise that money.
ReplyDeleteThis just in:
Fascism: Are We There Yet?
The surveillance state and the dangers of 'data-mining'
To congratulate Justin on raising that money, I will print the whole article here.
Don't like him? Start scrolling. But jao, if I have such an ignorant understanding of the Fourth Amendment, how come Justin agrees with me?
The lies keep coming. During the run-up to war with Iraq, we were told this administration knew for sure that Saddam had "weapons of mass destruction," and not only that, but knew exactly where they were. When no WMD turned up after the invasion, the Bushies came up with a bushel of excuses and denied ever saying that in the first place.
Oh, but don't worry – their real motive for going to war was to export "democracy" to Iraq – which, as anyone can see, is happening – so none of that matters anyway.
When it came out that the U.S. government was intercepting and listening to all overseas calls, the president himself stepped up to the plate and declared that they weren't spying on domestic calls – and now we learn that the biggest database in the world is being compiled by the National Security Agency (NSA) in which a record of every phone call made in the U.S. since 2001 is kept.
Oh, but don't fret – no one in government would ever allow this vital and potentially sensitive information to be put to unsavory purposes, such as blackmailing political opponents or similar dirty tricks. That anyone in Washington would do such a thing – why, it's unthinkable!
Trust us, say the biggest liars since the boy who cried wolf. Scooter Libby really doesn't remember outing undercover CIA agent Valerie Plame, and Ahmed Chalabi really is a "hero in error." All the lying war propaganda vomited forth by this administration and its media toadies on the front page of the New York Times, then dutifully lapped up by administration talking heads on the Sunday morning talk show circuit, was just an honest mistake. They didn't mean to deceive us, you see, and this is supposed to make us feel better as well as let the War Party off the hook.
It does neither. It won't matter in the long run, however, if the neocons get what they're after. What's really at stake here is the continued relevance of the Constitution and the legacy of the Founding Fathers. Listen closely – you can hear them turning in their graves.
What is significant about this new revelation is the way the White House is spinning it: they claim it's all perfectly legal, because the president – according to their creative interpretation of the Constitution – has the "inherent" authority to create such a database. Congress may object, but it isn't up to them – it's up to "the decider," as Dubya has recently begun referring to Himself. Instead of a president, we now have a decider in chief, who combines the qualities of a chief executive, a military chieftain, and a king. Not a modern monarch, all of whom are merely symbolic reminders of fallen empires, but a king of old, who could dismiss Parliament and rule by decree.
The phone record database is ostensibly a weapon to be used against terrorists plotting another 9/11: by employing a technique known as "data-mining" the authorities are supposed to be able to detect "bursts" of unusual calls and reveal a pattern that will somehow lead them to the bad guys. A piece in the Christian Science Monitor says this "can be used to identify a 'social network' of interconnected people – including, perhaps, would-be terrorists." Yes, and also including the "social network" of the political opposition, antiwar leaders, and – yikes! – antiwar writers.
Hey, I wonder if Justin picked up that "yikes" from me? Anyway, it certainly is applicable.
Data-mining is the Big Idea now energizing the burgeoning "anti-terrorist" industry, and its purpose is nothing less than to build databases that can be "cross-referenced in the hope of matching patterns, relationships, and activities that bear investigating." The Monitor goes on to cite Silicon Valley security expert Bruce Schneier, of Counterpane Internet Security:
"You should presume that phone numbers are being collated with Internet records, credit-card records, everything."
That's why they call it totalitarianism – because they want access to everything. The totality of your life must be available at the touch of a button. Remember "Total Information Awareness," the scheme cooked up by John Poindexter and Donald Rumsfeld that Congress ordered dismantled? Well, this "data-mining" business is it: Rummy, it appears, just embedded the program in a different bureaucratic rat-hole, and they've been pursuing their quest for omniscience ever since, without the knowledge or oversight of Congress. This usurpation has so riled Sen. Arlen Specter, Republican of Pennsylvania, and 50 other members of congress, that there will be a congressional investigation into the matter.
"Privacy nuts," sneers The Weekly Standard,
Justin, hold on a minute. You mean Bill and Fred are still on the loose? Why haven't those two raving lunatics been taken into protective custody, put in a Bellevue Psychiatric Ward where they belong, administered their meds, given some cute jammies, some plumped up pillows, and turn the TV on to Dr.Stangelove so the rest of us can get back to business? I mean, I like a laugh as much as the next person but I am starting to lose my sense of humor about these two delusional nuke-loving maniacs. OK, Justin, go on....
. which wheels out good old reliable ,eather MacDonald to explain why "only a paranoid solipsist could feel threatened" by this latest intrusion. After all, Heather explains, your name won't be attached to the number: it's just a bunch of digits, silly. And even then, there's just so much data that getting anything out of it is going to be very difficult. There, there – now go back to sleep.
But if there's too much data to glean meaningful patterns in anything close to real-time, then doesn't that invalidate the entire "data-mining" procedure as a useful tool in tracking terrorists? As William Arkin put it in a fascinating piece on this subject of "harvesting" useful intelligence from a massive database:
"An all-seeing domestic surveillance is slowly being established, one that in just a few years time will be able to track the activities and 'transactions' of any targeted individual in near real time."
And digits can always be attached to a name, as MacDonald admits:
"True, the government can de-anonymize the data if connections to terror suspects emerge, and it is not known what threshold of proof the government uses to put a name to critical phone numbers. But until that point is reached, your privacy is at greater risk from the Goodyear blimp at a Stones concert than from the NSA's supercomputers churning through trillions of zeros and ones representing disembodied phone numbers."
The mere fact that "it is not known what threshold of proof the government uses" before implementing this Orwellian technique tells us all we need to know about this very imminent threat to what is left of our civil liberties. What threshold of proof must be reached before the government arrogates to itself the "right" to ferret out the perhaps intimate details of your life? If we are talking about this government, one shudders to contemplate the answer. The Bush administration considers itself above the law: it recognizes no law but itself, and to hell with the Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights.
The old republic passes away, but what will take its place? The outlines of the new system emerging from the ruins of the Constitution are beginning to take shape, and it isn't a pretty sight. One of my favorite bloggers put the issue in context, warning against:
"The ultra-conservative legal scholars who invented the doctrine of the unitary executive and turned into our own home-grown version of the Fuhrerprinzip – now backed by the ability to process 10 billion bits of telecommunications data per second. Big Brother, eat your heart out."
Last year, a number of writers, including Lew Rockwell of the Mises Institute, Scott McConnell of The American Conservative, and myself, among others, took up the question of whether or not America is going fascist. A unique confluence of various factors gave rise to this kind of speculation: the leader cult that had grown up around the president, the worship of the military, and a foreign policy stance somewhere between old-style British imperialism and Soviet-style "liberation" (as when the Red Army "liberated" Afghanistan in the 1970s). Rockwell started the discussion with his perceptive comments on "Red State Fascism," and the topic soon became a subject of debate all over the Internet, as well as in print. I chimed in on several occasions with my own somewhat pessimistic prognosis. Scott was more optimistic, yet still clearly worried about the future prospects of a genuinely fascist regime taking hold in the land of the free. The existence of government "data-miners" with full access to our phone records, our financial records, and every other bit of data they can dig up, provides yet more evidence that Rockwell is right about the rising fascist danger. As he put it:
"The most significant socio-political shift in our time has gone almost completely unremarked, and even unnoticed. It is the dramatic shift of the red-state bourgeoisie from leave-us-alone libertarianism, manifested in the Congressional elections of 1994, to almost totalitarian statist nationalism. Whereas the conservative middle class once cheered the circumscribing of the federal government, it now celebrates power and adores the central state, particularly its military wing."
The Bushies and their media megaphones are loudly touting a recent poll that shows majority support for increased surveillance. This, I think, underscores the prescience of Rockwell's analysis. The present regime is busily building up the structural basis of a police state, one in which they will have the power to see into everything with the possible exception of your very soul – and that, I can almost assure you, is coming.
Yes, data-mining can be used to track those millions of Americans who aren't plotting terrorist attacks – and, heck, Big Brother can even watch us from space. I suppose executive orders could be used to lock up political dissidents without charges or a trial: and, yes, the U.S just possibly might use its doctrine of military "preemption" to defeat a threat that was never there. Luckily for us, we're governed by angels. Otherwise, I shudder to think what might happen…
YIKES. And jao doesn't object?
Unbelievable. He thinks it's moi who is misguided?
EWO said...YIKES. And jao doesn't object?
ReplyDeleteUnbelievable. He thinks it's moi who is misguided?
Heh. He's not the only person here who knows you are misguided about a great many things. But you are making progress. At least you stopped calling capitalism a form of government.
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDeleteWell, I'm certainly not sitting behind a keyboard relying on false premises as a national policy.
Belle Waring posted on warbloggers at Crooked Timber today. Her post was STFU Syndrome. One comment jumped out at another blogger, but this is the one, by Keiran over there at CT, that had me rolling on the floor.
Son, we live in a world that has blogs, and those blogs have to be guarded by men with computers. Who’s gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Waring? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Reynolds and you curse the Keyboarders. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Reynolds’ existence, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don’t want the truth because deep down, in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me on that blog. You need me on that blog. We use words like “fisk,” “indeed,” “heh” … We use these words as the backbone to a life spent at home defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a woman who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the endlessly self-important invective that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a laptop and start to post. Either way, I don’t give a damn what you think you are entitled to!
Eyes Wide Open said...
ReplyDeleteWell I hope you're all happy. I just read that the SC ruled that anticipatory searches of houses for "contraband" without warrants have been ruled not in violation of the Constitution.
You idiot. You are the kind of schmucks that have been agitating for this for years! You cite Janice Rogers Brown! Well, you've got your "property rights" and no "privacy rights". I bet unscrupulous car salesman just love you.
Joe Lieberman: The Collapse of a Paper Tiger
ReplyDeleteNearly every Democrat knows that Joe Lieberman is George Bush's best friend in politics. After seeing Robert Greenwald's newest short, you'll see why Ned Lamont will replace Joe Lieberman in the U.S. Senate, providing for the first time in years a second Democratic Senator from Connecticut and a real voice for progress.
Glenn, your book is now also available for pre-order in international amazon.stores, at least on amazon.de in germany. Congratulations. Ordered my copy.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, the NSA also has a contract with a company called Clearpoint, which can specifically match a whole profile (including but not limited to - ss#,credit history,arrest record, and medical record) from just a phone number. So the bogus claim of...'we are just monitoring phone numbers' is clearly a smokescreen.
ReplyDeleteDruidbros says:
ReplyDeleteGlenn, the NSA also has a contract with a company called Clearpoint, which can specifically match a whole profile (including but not limited to - ss#,credit history,arrest record, and medical record) from just a phone number. So the bogus claim of...'we are just monitoring phone numbers' is clearly a smokescreen.
For the love of Pete, do you people listen to yourselves? Are you actually suggesting that the government be restricted from information available to any credit card company? If you folks are just realizing that your lives are open books to a myriad of industries, welcome to the 21st century!
Let's see how honest you people are. Is it the information about your lives that is the problem, or just that the NSA is using it? Here's your conundrum in a nutshell, if you consider databases of personal information for credit card, insurance, health care, social security, telephony, and auto registery, legal; you can't deny the government from using the same information.
If you are going to deny one you'll have to deny all. Consider life off the information grid for a moment. No loans, no mortgages, no health insurance, no credit or debit cards, no cable. Yikes.
Now then, some of the 9/11 gang were known to be in the country and actively being searched for, yet the searches were blocked by information restrictions. Further I'll bet that most people here didn't know that information flow is so restricted that pre-Patriot Act, if a criminal wiretap accidentally turned up a terrorist plot, it could not be passed on to anyone. Conversely if a FISA warrant accidently turned up a bank robbery plan, passing on that info gets the agent 15 yrs in Leavenworth, minimum.
While fourth amendment concerns are legitimate, one has to be concerned with the idea that a consequence of overprotectiveness leads to safe haven for people that wish us harm. Arguably "the wall" had already cost 3000 lives, how many more is this group willing to concede?
For the love of Pete, do you people listen to yourselves? Are you actually suggesting that the government be restricted from information available to any credit card company?
ReplyDeleteThat's a voluntary association between me and my bank. The fact that three corporations have amassed all this data in the form of personal credit histories is troubling as well. Thanks for reminding us. We need to do something about that as well.
While fourth amendment concerns are legitimate, one has to be concerned with the idea that a consequence of overprotectiveness leads to safe haven for people that wish us harm. Arguably "the wall" had already cost 3000 lives, how many more is this group willing to concede?
Arguably "the wall" of Bush and Republican ignorance and incompetence led to 3000 deaths. If the "terrists" try to finance there next operation on Mastercard we can all rest easy. Priceless.
It wouldn't matter to me if the NSA phone scandal was perfectly legal. It is just plain wrong, and not the first time gov't engaged in legal but immoral activities.(Jim Crow, surveillance before FISA).
ReplyDeleteThe answer is, change the damn law to make it illegal. The people who cannot see this as an invasion of privacy,(or won't admit it) have serious problems. Get a clue- the Bushies won't spare you from abuse just because you keep boot-licking. THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU. YOU ARE BEING USED.
And telling bushbots to imagine Hillary with this power won't work. The abject hypocrisy displayed by these people every day in every way tells you what the response would be to that scenario, should it come to pass-"Hillary is a traitorous liberal,she can't be trusted with national security, case closed"(nevermind the fact that Hillary is about as liberal as Lieberman)Besides, what is good for their goose cannot be allowed to benefit the gander on the other side;witness all the pearl clutching about the lack of "civility" in the fever swamp of the lefty blogosphere when these folks wouldn't know true civility if it served them tea.
Shooter asks...
ReplyDeleteFor the love of Pete, do you people listen to yourselves? Are you actually suggesting that the government be restricted from information available to any credit card company?
For the love of Pete, do you actually read these posts?
Druidbros suggested no such thing. He was commenting on the disingenuous of Bart who stated that the NSA was just monitoring phone numbers.
How do I know know this? The last line of Druidbros post gave me a clue: "So the bogus claim of...'we are just monitoring phone numbers' is clearly a smokescreen."
Since you initial premise is wrong, all your commentary that follows is pointless. Thanks for playing, though.
Shooter...one has to be concerned with the idea that a consequence of overprotectiveness leads to safe haven for people that wish us harm.
ReplyDeleteNo. One doesn't. You are the one who must be concerned. OCD? I think we are seeing the early manifestations of a new modern phobia or mental disorder. The greek would be trein. Treinaphobia, but Terroraphobia works well, too. It's a specific form of agoraphobia and paranoia with obsessive/compulsive overtones.
Shooter has two choices. He can choose to rely on MAD, (it worked quite well during the Cold War), or choose to go mad. He has chosen the latter. Perhaps he was unbalanced before. I think that's a distinct possibilty.
ReplyDeleteHow long does it take for a coalition of rightwingnuts to come unglued? Not long at all.
ReplyDeleteConservative Christians Criticize Republicans
Some of President Bush's most influential conservative Christian allies are becoming openly critical of the White House and Republicans in Congress, warning that they will withhold their support in the midterm elections unless Congress does more to oppose same-sex marriage, obscenity and abortion.
Damn. That's not good... for wingnuts. Shooter, shouldn't you be trying to keep your ball of wingnuts from coming unglued? (Good luck with that.)
Trying to win new converts to your cause from this milieu is probably counter-productive.
Jeebus! Look what uber-conwingnut Viguerie is saying:
ReplyDelete"There is a growing feeling among conservatives that the only way to cure the problem is for Republicans to lose the Congressional elections this fall," said Richard Viguerie, a conservative direct-mail pioneer.
Mr. Viguerie also cited dissatisfaction with government spending, the war in Iraq and the immigration-policy debate, which Mr. Bush is scheduled to address in a televised speech on Monday night.
Sounds like he is already floating the "we meant to lose" meme. That's not very promising. Do you know how to apply a tourniquet, shooter?
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDelete"Let's see how honest you people are. Is it the information about your lives that is the problem, or just that the NSA is using it? Here's your conundrum in a nutshell, if you consider databases of personal information for credit card, insurance, health care, social security, telephony, and auto registery, legal; you can't deny the government from using the same information."
It's almost unbelieveable how full of it you are shooter.
Data-mining is an untested idea that uses algorithms applied to massive amounts of data on the general public. Patterns are then analyzed to try and tease out potential terrorists. The program seeks to aggregate commercial and government records that would scrutinize the lives of innocent people. The program would make EVERY PERSON IN THE COUNTRY A POTENTIAL SUSPECT.
The goal is to predict terrorist attacks by looking for telltale patterns of activity in passport applications, visas, work permits, driver's licenses, car rentals, airline ticket purchases and arrests, as well as credit transactions and education, medical and housing records.
But such reviews of millions of transactions could put innocent Americans under suspicion. One of John Poindexter's own researchers for TIA, David D. Jensen at the University of Massachusetts, HAS ACKNOWLEDGED THAT "HIGH NUMBERS OF FALSE POSITIVES CAN RESULT"
So how many false positive people is Bush going to have arrested and thrown in jail with no charges and no legal recourse?
"A citizen must have the right to see what data is held about him or her, and they must have the right to correct errors in those data,"
But they won't have that with the NSA secret database because it will all be classified.
"The Computer-Assisted Passenger Prescreening System II (CAPPS II) is being developed by the Transportation Security Administration, and is intended to be used for determining whether people should be allowed to fly."
And we all know how that already worked out. Lot's of errors to include Congressmen and babys in strollers not being allowed to fly because they showed up on the no fly list as potential or known terrorists.
Opponents of new government surveillance measures such as TIA or Operation TIPS, the Justice Department's aborted plan to utilize citizen informants, often invoke the specter of the East German secret police and communist Cuba's block watch system. But we don't have to look to totalitarian states for cautionary tales. There's a long and troubling history of military surveillance in this country.
During World War I, concerns about German saboteurs led to unrestrained domestic spying by U.S. Army intelligence operatives. Historian Joan M. Jensen notes, "What began as a system to protect the government from enemy agents became a vast surveillance system to watch civilians who violated no law but who objected to wartime policies or to the war itself.
The War Department relied heavily on a quasi-private volunteer organization, the American Protective League, composed of self-styled patriots who agreed to inform on their fellow citizens.
At the War Department's request, APL volunteers harassed labor organizers, intimidated and arrested opponents of the draft, and investigated such potential subversives as Mexican-American leaders in Los Angeles, pacifist groups, and antiwar religious sects. Through it all, the army caught exactly one German spy, a naval officer who tried to enter the United States via Nogales, Arizona.
Sound familiar? Wasn't it Quaker meetings the Government investigated recently?
Throughout the 20th Century, in periods of domestic unrest and foreign conflict surveillance has ratcheted up again and again, most notably in the 1960s. During that tumultuous decade, President Johnson repeatedly called on federal troops to quell riots and restore order. To better perform that task, Army intelligence operatives began compiling thousands of dossiers on citizens, many of whom had committed no offense beyond protesting government policy. Reviewing the files, the Senate Judiciary Committee noted that "comments about the financial affairs, sex lives and psychiatric histories of persons unaffiliated with the armed forces appear throughout the various records systems." Justice William O. Douglas called army surveillance "a cancer in our body politic."
"If you are going to deny one you'll have to deny all. Consider life off the information grid for a moment. No loans, no mortgages, no health insurance, no credit or debit cards, no cable."
A false choice and simply not true.
devoman says:
ReplyDeleteHow do I know know this? The last line of Druidbros post gave me a clue: "So the bogus claim of...'we are just monitoring phone numbers' is clearly a smokescreen."
Since you initial premise is wrong, all your commentary that follows is pointless. Thanks for playing, though.
Unlike the last line from Druid I start with a question. Meanwhile the last line you are enamored of is just speculation. So far, you all have been wrong about wiretapping, eavesdropping, and Constitutional abridgements. There is no reason to think you're going to be right (correct)any time soon.
Justice William O. Douglas called army surveillance "a cancer in our body politic."
ReplyDeleteAnd you all know how cancer is treated, so cut it out, shooter, or we will have to iradiate and poison it.
Shooter...There is no reason to think you're going to be right (correct)any time soon.
ReplyDeleteWe'd rather be patiotic Americans than be "right" or even "correct". Thanks in advance for taking what few marbles you have left and going to play somewhere else.
Anon says:
ReplyDeleteDamn. That's not good... for wingnuts. Shooter, shouldn't you be trying to keep your ball of wingnuts from coming unglued? (Good luck with that.)
OTOH some conservatives speculate that having a Dem branch of Congress would be a welcome diversion. You people would go nuts on investigations, that always backfire; give us something to criticize for a change, and make you responsible for doing something other than complain.
Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it. But I doubt very seriously it will happen. However, if you want to start calling Pelosi "Speaker" be my guest. Heh.
It also occurs to me that most people here have forgotten that the first two years Bush was president, the Senate was Democratic. How did that work for you? Heh, heh.