Friday, May 12, 2006

Polling hysteria and the NSA program

Somehow, The Washington Post -- on the very same day most people learned about the new NSA data-collection program -- managed to conduct a poll which purports to show that "63 percent of Americans said they found the NSA program to be an acceptable way to investigate terrorism." The reaction is painfully predictable. Bush followers are celebrating with glee, as though the issue is resolved in their favor and they won, while some Democrats are quivering with caution, urging that this issue be kept at arm's length lest they take a position that isn't instantaneously and overwhelmingly popular.

I didn't even read about this story until yesterday morning and it took awhile to process the various issues and implications. I'm still doing that. I have a hard time believing that less than 24 hours after this program was first revealed by USA Today, most Americans had informed themselves about what this program is, why it is a departure from past practices, and what are its potential dangers and excesses -- let alone had an opportunity to hear from those who are opposed to the program explain why they are opposed to it.

The whole point of having political leaders and pundits is to articulate a point of view and provide support for that view in order to persuade Americans of its rightness. That process changes public opinion on every issue, all of the time, often dramatically. None of that has occurred here. Let's have a few days of debate over whether Americans actually want the Government to maintain a permanent data base of every call they make and receive -- to their girlfriends and boyfriends, their doctors and lawyers, their psychiatrists and drug counselors. And let's have a debate about whether the law prohibits this program. And then let's see where public opinion is.

When the NSA eavesdropping scandal was first disclosed, Rasmussen Reports quickly issued a blatantly flawed poll purporting to show that "Sixty-four percent (64%) of Americans believe the National Security Agency (NSA) should be allowed to intercept telephone conversations between terrorism suspects in other countries and people living in the United States. " The question mentioned nothing about warrants. It mentioned nothing about FISA. And it specified that the Government would be eavesdropping only on conversations "between terrorism suspects."

The only surprise with the results was that only 64% favored that. One would think that virtually everyone would favor eavesdropping on terrorism suspects. Nonetheless, since that was the first poll, it was held up by Bush followers as proof that the NSA scandal was political suicide for Democrats; the media repeated this theme; and many Democrats were scared by it.

As the debate over the NSA scandal became more informed and more Americans understood the issues at stake, virtually every poll thereafter showed that a majority or plurality of Americans oppose warrantless eavesdropping and/or believe the President broke the law, and some even show that a plurality favors the Censure Resolution. Opinions change when people stand up and explain why what the Government is doing is wrong and dangerous, and Americans respect politicians who are willing to do that even when -- especially when -- they are not guaranteed by the consulting class ahead of time that they will win.

All other issues aside, there is nothing for Bush opponents to lose here by pursuing this issue. Nobody who has abandoned George Bush is going to again become a supporter of his because he is keeping track of the telephone calls of every single American. There is no question that some of his supporters will be opposed to this and that will contribute to the shakiness of their support, but nobody is going to become a George Bush fan again because he's compiling these records.

We go through the same empty rituals and are subjected to the same worthless warnings over and over and over from the same know-nothing, pompous pundits. When the NSA scandal first broke, and Bush's popularity rating showed a slight bump upwards (well within the margin of error) in a Rasmussen poll, uber-snarky geniuses like Mickey Kaus spat out oh-so-knowing warnings like this:


Bush hits 50% on Rasmussen. ... Another spy scandal and he'll be at 60%!

I recall those days all too well. The NSA scandal was going to be Bush's political salvation. It would shift the debate back to terrorism, where they always win. Americans are too simplistic and stupid to care about the rule of law or privacy. They only want to cheer on the swaggering, sometimes-reckless Cowboy as he smashes the Bad Guys with machismo and grit.

Meanwhile, in the real world, ever since the NSA scandal was revealed, the President's approval rating has done nothing but plummet. That, of course, does not demonstrate a causal relationship, but it certainly proves that scandals of this type do not remotely help the President in any way. All of those frightened Beltway Democrats who were anonymously screeching that Russ Feingold's Censure Resolution played right into Karl Rove's omnipotent hands, that it destroyed the Grand Democratic Plan, that it would allow the President to recover by forcing the debate back onto his turf -- how wrong were they, as always? After five months of the NSA scandal and increasing debates over the administration's lawlessness, Bush's approval rating today fell to 29% -- a full 4% higher than Richard Nixon when he resigned in disgrace.

Maybe we should listen to the Mickey Kaus's and his friends at The New Republic and in the old Clinton consultant buddy clubs as they meekly urge that we not talk about these data collection programs because -- to use Kaus' very prescient words: "Another spy scandal and he'll be at 60%!"

The danger here is that Bush followers are attempting to instill as permanent conventional wisdom that the "vast majority of Americans" favor this program, something the national media stars (who love polls -- at least poll results -- because they're really easy to understand and explain) will be only too happy to pass along. This only works because Bush opponents allow it to work. They so often internalize this notion, too - "oh, boy - we better stay away from that issue. Most Americans are against us on this. They won't like it if we speak out." And then they run away from the issue, never articulate or advocate the other side, and then point to the fact that that position is a minority view as proof that they were right to run away from it.

It was just revealed yesterday that the NSA is trying to build a data base showing every single call that every single American makes or receives. It is not that hard to explain why that is so dangerous, how powers of this type have been continuously abused in our history by administration's of both parties, and why oversight is therefore critical in both preventing abuse and in ensuring that we engage in aggressive and effective anti-terrorist efforts. It's hard to fathom that Democrats are going to leap at this insta-poll and conclude that it's just too "risky" to take a stand on this issue, and just run away from it. I've seen signs that some of them intend to do just that, but I also believe that many of them view this program as simply too much -- finally over the line -- and will throw some caution to the wind and act on their passion and beliefs. One can hope.

226 comments:

  1. Current daily Excite poll figures

    According to a report published in USA Today yesterday, the National Security Agency (NSA) has secretly collected records of ordinary Americans' phone calls to build a database of every call made within the country. The report claims the program does not involve listening to calls – but documents who talks to whom in personal and business calls so the agency can look for patterns that may suggest terrorist activity. (AP)
    Do you think the National Security Agency should be allowed to collect records of phone calls by ordinary Americans?


    Yes 40% => 1398 votes

    No 56% => 1952 votes

    I'm not sure 3% => 126 votes
    Current number of voters: 3476

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  2. Anonymous1:02 PM

    Good advice for life:

    don't read, listen to, or link to Mickey Kaus.

    I would add "don't even mention", but then I'd contradict myself.

    He, Maureen Dowd, Cohen, and the TNR gang who torpedoed Clinton and Gore are all headed to the special circle that Dante reserved for people who betray their own proclaimed ideals.

    And their motivation? The pure joy of reveling in their own cleverness, of being the kewlest of the kewl kids, of having the DC cocktail circuit pat them on the head.

    Feh. We're rebuilding this party, and this country, without the likes of them.

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  3. Anonymous1:03 PM

    Every so often, we read that another poll has been conducted that shows that Americans oppose the provisions of the Bill of Rights when they are not identified as such. I have to assume that these polls are conducted to give us a general picture of the level of public consciousness, not to plumb the depths of our commitments and misgivings regarding our conflicting desires for freedom and safety.

    So the first thing we know is that the poll lacked ambition, or it would have told us more. Does it tell us that the public supports what the government is really doing, or that the public still trusts the government more than it should?

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  4. Anonymous1:04 PM

    Actually, if it wasn't for the help of the NSA spying scandals, Bush's approval ratings would be in the low twenties or lower instead of the whopping 29% he's at now.

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  5. It's similar to the attitude that Media Matters identified - where someone spins "good news" as good for Bush and "bad news" as good for Bush.

    They've been spun so much that all their faculties of logic have been destroyed and that part of the brain constists of neuro-receptors for the desire to eat cocktail weenies.

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  6. Democratic Senators Noah Spine, Caspar Milquetoast, Sy Lence, and Will Capitulate are going to get right on this issue, I'm sure.

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  7. Anonymous1:13 PM

    I would like to know hat exactly was the question that pollsters asked?

    I think it is telling that this poll happened so quickly, long before people could fully digest the implications. In my opinion, the poll is part of an effort to frighten mainstream Democratic Politicians away from asking tough questions.

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  8. I also believe that many of them view this program as simply too much -- finally over the line -- and will throw some caution to the wind and act on their passion and beliefs.

    Alas, like many people, I have long ago concluded that most Democrats in Congress have no passion or beliefs. The question we need to ask is why the nominating process in the Democratic Party produces these timorous, uninspiring drudges.

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  9. Mike,

    Do you have any, you know..."evidence" to back that claim or would that just be caving into the "factinistas" and you just "know it in your gut"?

    Really, how can the idea of the president illegally spying on Americans where the program is not only illegal, but ineffective actually help him in any way?

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  10. Anonymous1:17 PM

    People simply do not understand how the information -- phone numbers of caller and called, and duration of connection -- can be used with data mining software. If persons truly understood the implications of data-mining and the sharing of results among -- what is it almost every other federal agency? -- they wouldn't respond with such apparant acquiescence to polling questions asking whether they approve of such activity.

    Most people believe that they're not doing anything wrong, so why not? This is an extremely naive position. The government has a lot of hugely successful practice copping numbers for many, many years. That's the reason they wanted even more, to the point of totality, numbers to analyze.

    The government has been collecting “pen register” information (numbers calling and numbers called) for years and years, way before 9-11.

    They’ve just gotten an easier way to do it now by tapping into the communication backbones of the major telecoms (’cept Qwest…who finally got my DSL service back up and running after 20 long hours, praise the lord).

    Since the very beginning of the use of microwaves to carry long-distance communications the govt (probably NSA) has been sucking every microwave transmission out of the air and using software (there’s a small 14 person outfit in York, Nebraska, that’s been writing this sigint capture software under govt contract for years) to analyze the patterns of phone calls.

    How does this information get used?

    Here’s a suspicion of mine as a result of way too many coinkydinks on Interstate 80 where huge stashes of drugs and cash are routinely intercepted by the Nebraska State Patrol (who have, at any given time, only about 70 troopers on the entire Nebraska highway system).

    There’s got to be some way these guys know there’s a shipment of contraband working it’s way west to east, or east to west. They know because the couriers have instructions to “phone home” occasionally to “report in” on their status. Just a simple phone call. They don’t even have to say anything and they’re already busted.

    Starting with just one “real” phone number that is known to be part of an organized ring, data mining techniques soon will yield up the rest of the ring if every outcall and incoming call are recorded and analyzed.

    Once the contraband begins to move, as traced by phone calls (not the content, remember, the information in the phone call is not important, only the numbers and times) law enforcement will have a pretty good idea exactly when the contraband will pass a certain point, say in Nebraska.

    From that moment on, all the officer needs is a license plate from, say California, and two swarthy individuals. Plop down a pretext for a stop (there’s ca’zillions of ‘em), bring in the dogs, and voila…huge contraband bust.

    Humans are creatures of habit and patterns. If the NSA can deduce meaning from sneaky crypto-dudes trying everything in their power to keep the hidden meanings hidden, how much more can they learn by tracking the simple habits and patterns of ordinary Americans living their every day lives?

    I'd really like to know the answer to that question.

    --

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  11. Alas, whatever became of doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do?

    The Democrats are perceived as weak on defense because their to afraid to DEFEND THEMSELVES!

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  12. Anonymous1:23 PM

    Biased poll structure, as has been pointed out at dKos. The question is right after an incredibly biased false-dichotomy question which implies that privacy rights and fighting terrorism are mutually exclusive.

    Not to mention the claim *in the poll question* that the Republicant administration isn't listening to the contents of the phone conversations. At this point we have only Bush's word for that, and we know how much *that* is worth.

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  13. Glenn:

    Given your ongoing citation to presidential popularity polls which intentionally add an additional 10% of self identified Dems than those who actually vote as some sort of referendum on the issues which you raise here, I find it amusing that you take an entire post to attack the recent snap polls on the NSA telephone record database for being inaccurate.

    This is why the President should never govern by polls.

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  14. Excellent. 71 Dems have stopped lying about their support for intelligence gathering on al Qaeda. Let the debate be joined during the elections!

    Friday, May 12, 2006 12:24 a.m. EDT
    Dems Join Suit to Ban Terrorist Surveillance

    Until now, Democrats had insisted that they didn't want to end President Bush's terrorist surveillance program, saying instead that the law merely needed to be changed to make terrorist surveillance inside the U.S. illegal.

    On Wednesday, however - even before USA Today's bogus report about the NSA's phone number data collection program - 71 House Democrats signed up to sponsor a move that would make it illegal for the NSA to continue to monitor terrorist phone calls.

    The liberal web site Raw Story reported Thursday:

    "The 71 Democrats and one independent filed an amicus brief in two federal courts reviewing challenges to the warrantless wiretapping program in Detroit and New York, joining the American Civil Liberties Union and the Center for Constitutional Rights."

    "Both suits demand the program be stopped."

    Predictably, Michigan Democrat John Conyers led the charge:

    "As our brief makes clear, this Congress dealt with this issue authoritatively almost 30 years ago - warrantless spying on American soil is flatly prohibited," he railed.


    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/5/12/02558.shtml?s=ic

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  15. Anonymous1:27 PM

    The NSA story didn't even hit the local newspapers until today. It will take a few days for most people to realize the stakes. And the wording of the questions totally invalidate the poll results anyway, falsely implying that it was somehow limited to terrorists and those related to them.

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  16. Anonymous1:28 PM

    All other issues aside, there is nothing for Bush opponents to lose here by pursuing this issue. Nobody who has abandoned George Bush is going to again become a supporter of his because he is keeping track of the telephone calls of every single American.

    As this is an absolute truism, you have to ask yourself why the Democrats Power Elite keeps "running away" from hot button issues like this which could obviously be used to their great advantage.

    It's not because they fear political fallout or are reading those phony polls. They know better.

    It's because they want this and other programs like it to stay in place.

    Isn't that obvious?

    Despite the "roadblocks" that both parties continue to throw in the path of the American people, this issue is one that has "hit home" like the Port Deal.

    That was scuttled. This must be also. Knowledge is power and the blogosphere must play the role of educator in a louder and louder voice.

    If every American knew the full implications of these programs and what was really involved, all but a handful would be against them.

    Good post, Glenn.

    Did you get a chance to read the new USA article yet?

    I keep asking myself: What would have happened if USA Today hadn't posted that first article? The power of the "press" (in its wide meaning) has never been so important in this country before.

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  17. It was just revealed yesterday that the NSA is trying to build a data base showing every single call that every single American makes or receives. It is not that hard to explain why that is so dangerous, how powers of this type have been continuously abused in our history by administration's of both parties, and why oversight is therefore critical in both preventing abuse and in ensuring that we engage in aggressive and effective anti-terrorist efforts.

    So why don't you do just that?

    How exactly is this database in any way dangerous to me?

    Exactly what Constitutional rights have I given up if the NSA as opposed to my telephone company knows that one telephone number called another telephone number at a particular time?

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  18. Anonymous1:33 PM

    Holy Chit look at the small print!

    At the very bottom of the page called "Natinal Security Agency"
    (No, I didn't misspell -- that's the way it's written)

    "The telephone survey of 1,000 Adults was conducted by Rasmussen Reports December 26-27, 2005. The margin of sampling error for the survey is +/- 4.5 percentage points at the midpoint with a 95% level of confidence (see Methodology)."



    December 26-27, 2005???!!!


    LOL Sorry, but if true that DESERVES 3 question marks and 3 exclamation points! They have a seance maybe? Hell, I want a psychic reading from Rasmussen!

    Don't know whether to laugh or cry!

    (I posted this over at DU)

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  19. Anonymous1:36 PM

    Dan,

    It's not my gut. I just read Kaus too much. If this new scandal will help Bush's ratings go up to 60%, and the NSA scandals have only been helpful to Bush so far, than logically his ratings would be lower without the NSA scandals. Logically to Kaus at least.

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  20. Anonymous1:37 PM

    Do the math -- the total US population is: 295,734,134 according to www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook The spooks would know, right?

    Our Great Decider has an approval rating of 29% -- therefore we have 85,572,889 Americans that are not al Quada.

    This means we have 209,971,235 Americans that are Al Qaeda.

    Now granted, there is likely some support for the Decider among Al Qaeda. After all, they hate us for our freedoms and the Decider is taking that away from us. Also, many probably have benefited from the increased funding that the war-on-terror has brought to the military-industrial complex. And look at the “put” options on 9/11? But we cannot exclude Al Quada from participating in the U.S. economy. That would be communism.

    American that support the administration don't mind don’t mind being spied on. Like you said, Ed, there’s no reason for concern. Most of us don't use those freedoms anyhow. The only people that have cause for alarm are those tree-huggers that disapprove of the POTUS anyhow. We have just seen that they are Al Qaeda, so there’s no loss there.

    I am sure that if the liberal mainstream media would only tell the reasons for increased surveillance, there would be more support for the administration. This would result in fewer Al Qaeda member in the U.S.

    Look, the wealthy are doing their part to support the War on Terror by accepting more tax cuts. This is only 5% of the population, however, so as noble as this gesture is, the rest of us need to do more. Real Americans should shut-up and allow our Great Decider to decide. If we don’t all do our part, we will surely see another terrorist attack on U.S. soil.

    In fact, it is wholly within the prerogative of our Great Decider to initiate one. This was probably what happened on 9/11, as a preemptive strike against Al Qaeda. The country rallied about the administration, reducing the calculated number supporting Al Qaeda within the U.S.

    After all, creating “terrorist” attacks may be best way to increase popular support for the POTUS, thereby reducing the Al Qaeda membership in this country. And if you love America, what’s wrong with that?

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  21. Anonymous1:38 PM

    I repost a link Cynic Librarian put at the end of the last thread.

    The American people are going to have to be made aware of the real issues here in a hurry before they get distracted with "pen registers" statutes and phony trumped up polls.

    Framework for a police state US government phone spying targets all Americans

    The NSA database is a blueprint for political repression and intimidation on a massive scale.

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  22. Re the polls

    "Bush followers are celebrating with glee, as though the issue is resolved in their favor and they won"

    Bush followers treat every measure this way. If it turned out Bush authorized research into human cannibalism, the Bushies would fall right in line and cheer if some silly poll indicated public approval.

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  23. The question the Post uses does not use the word "warrant", the acronym "FISA", the phrase "court order", or the word "illegal". It is worthless.
    As other commenters have pointed out, it's a crap poll that sets up a false dichotomy between hunting terrorists and privacy rights. The real dichotomy is between Bush obeying the law and Bush flouting the law.

    The Bushites cannot win this fight if it's based on the facts. So let's fight it with the facts.

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  24. J i O said... "Here’s a suspicion of mine as a result of way too many coinkydinks on Interstate 80 where huge stashes of drugs and cash are routinely intercepted by the Nebraska State Patrol (who have, at any given time, only about 70 troopers on the entire Nebraska highway system)."

    They've got a licenseplate recognition camera on eastbound I-80 4 miles west of Fremont, plugged into the DEA database. Similar devices along I-70 and I-80 near the Ohio-Indiana line.

    Plate recognition is much easier than face recognition, especially as cars all face directly ahead,so no rotation algorithm's needed.

    I doubt savvy drug mules make a lot of cell calls while en route. For those that do, location tracking is a greater risk than who's called monitoring.

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  25. BTW, we can see Richard Morin's hand in this poll design. This is the gem whose way to reply to people asking for polls about impeachment was to detail just how angry he was getting.

    Of course, he never had qualms about asking the same question during the Clinton administration.

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  26. Anonymous1:43 PM

    I wonder what the poll outcome would have been if the first question asked was:

    Do you approve or disapprove of the Secret Service protecting President Bush enroute to a speaking event, by pointing rifles at protestors lining the road?

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/5/12/8012/38216

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  27. whispers said...

    The question the Post uses does not use the word "warrant", the acronym "FISA", the phrase "court order", or the word "illegal". It is worthless.
    As other commenters have pointed out, it's a crap poll that sets up a false dichotomy between hunting terrorists and privacy rights. The real dichotomy is between Bush obeying the law and Bush flouting the law.


    Given that the objective of the data analysis is identify al Qaeda and the fear (without any facts to date) is that our "privacy rights" are somehow compromised, then the dichotomy in the Post poll is exactly correct.

    The fact that you wish to avoid that factual dichotomy to make this about Bush says all that needs to be said about your motives.

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  28. bart: Exactly what Constitutional rights have I given up if the NSA as opposed to my telephone company knows that one telephone number called another telephone number at a particular time?

    The easy answer to this is what they will do with it potentially. As some point out, using this database you could determine whether I called a Washington Post reporter. You could also track calls to political opponents to identify supporters. Lots of things you could do.

    The other, just as important, question is what can't this databse do. That question has been debated and seems to point out that it can't find terrorists.

    Social network analysis guru, Vladis Krebs, says:

    The worst part -- the thing that's most disappointing to me -- is that this is not the right way to do this. It's a waste of time, a waste of resources. And it lets the real terrorists run free. [my emphasis]

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  29. Anonymous1:53 PM

    I keep wondering whether polls are the only way the public is willing to say "no more". Where is the outrage?

    I don't think you can count on democrats anymore than republicans. The voter keeps going back and forth between the two and eventually they all end up in the same place, by screwing, in some fashion, the public which they are supposed to represent. When are we going to learn to get off this ride to nowhere? There is no wide representation between these two parties. They simply represent those of thier base and the rest of us (at least after they get elected) end up snatching crumbs thrown our way to keep us content. I don't know why exactly, that America keeps going around in circles?!

    I don't put alot of stock in Arlen Spector's "hearings" either. So far, the only they have done is keep the scandal alive, but not much else. If he really wanted and was concerned about the state of aou Republic, he could (and should) subpeona Administration officials under oath and really put pressure on them. Bush is so bold because he believes he can be since this congress has shown itself to be all talk and very little action. Will this change? I think it is unlikely!! Spector can have his "hearings", but it may only bring "the little man's" poll numbers down a couple more points.

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  30. Anonymous1:55 PM

    Bart, you are part of the lunatic fringe now. Didn't you see?

    29 percent

    Pretty close to the number of Americans that believe elvis is alive and visiting earth in UFOs

    Thanks for bringing some comedy in the thread, but now you are part of the "crazies"

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  31. the cynic librarian said...

    bart: Exactly what Constitutional rights have I given up if the NSA as opposed to my telephone company knows that one telephone number called another telephone number at a particular time?

    The easy answer to this is what they will do with it potentially. As some point out, using this database you could determine whether I called a Washington Post reporter. You could also track calls to political opponents to identify supporters. Lots of things you could do.


    To achieve this, you need far more information than is provided in these records, which do not include the identity of the telephone number owner, the identity of the actual persons on the call or the content of the call.

    Try again.

    The other, just as important, question is what can't this databse do. That question has been debated and seems to point out that it can't find terrorists.

    Social network analysis guru, Vladis Krebs, says:

    The worst part -- the thing that's most disappointing to me -- is that this is not the right way to do this. It's a waste of time, a waste of resources. And it lets the real terrorists run free. [my emphasis]


    This claim might have some merit if Mr. Krebs actually knew what NSA was doing and actually knew what results were being achieved.

    Like the data mining expert I quoted from NPR, Mr. Krebs is simply guessing.

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  32. Anonymous1:57 PM

    Completely missed dateline at the beginning of the article!

    " National Security Agency

    December 28, 2005
    --Sixty-four percent (64%) of Americans believe the National Security Agency (NSA) should be allowed to intercept telephone conversations between terrorism suspects in other countries and people living in the United States. A Rasmussen Reports survey found that just 23% disagree."

    *snip*

    So they had this ready and waiting... they were prepared

    But there's a big change once it hits home that ten of millions of actual (i.e. probably oneself)American citizens were spied on, no?

    ej, just saw your post -- it appears to me it is discerned or presented today as a farm-fresh poll.
    And it appears many others are viewing it as a breaking poll, from what I've read so far...

    It's an obvious and understandable mistake -- but most people aren't going to note the date and many will use it to defend a certain set of talking points, possibly by people who know better
    ...can't say I'm surprised at that.

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  33. Anonymous1:59 PM

    Please stop responding to bart. I know its fun to repeatly smash his arguments but he has actually said people are supporting terrorists by speaking out against this administrations policies. That one statement alone shows that he is not only full of shit, he has no idea what it means to be an American. Stop feeding the troll. He is anti-American.

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  34. Anonymous1:59 PM

    Creatonist polling! Another triumph of freedumb™.
    .

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  35. Anonymous2:00 PM

    Is there a single person in America who has not once said something on the phone he or she would rather not have anyone but the person to whom the comment was made know about?

    I would think that is the "slam home" point to all those who are apolitical and say they have nothing to "hide."

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  36. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  37. >To achieve this, you need far more information than is provided in these records, which do not include the identity of the telephone number owner.<

    Were talking about the NSA !! You don't think they have instant access to that information from other sources??!!

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  38. Anonymous2:07 PM

    Its funny, for all the monitoring thats being done what do we have to show for it? We have 1 trial in all these years and some people cought trying to take out the Brookland bridge. What ever happened to all thoes terror alerts before the election? Oh yeah, they were FOR the election. Fear sells and at least 29% of Americans are still buying.

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  39. Anonymous2:08 PM

    Keith, that is what I was trying to say. Only a moron would get up on their little soapbox and try to refute talking points from a "copy and paste" troll that reflect less than a third of all Americans!

    Come on, folks, quite thinking that reading this blog makes you part of the intellectual "elite" and that you have anything of value by debating the obvious.

    When you consider the margin of error, chimpy has reached nixonian levels of popularity.

    Even conservatives and repugs are starting to bale.

    What kind of idiot feels they have to counter the kool-aiders and shills

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  40. The problem with the American public, I think, is also that they are merely looking at this matter in the manner of "okay, so the NSA knows who we are calling, who the hell cares". But they are not giving any importance to the bigger issue of the law being broken, that phone companies might have also broken the law by divulging confidential information and the possibility that this might set a trend for other illegalities in the future where people might just point to this instance to justify their actions.

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  41. Anonymous2:08 PM

    Last night on The News Hour, they had two Senators talking about it and the GOP one kept insisting that the DoJ lawyers had given their approval of the NSA programs and that it was all legal. Its sad when some lame cubicle slave like me knows that the DoJ lawyers were denied the intelligence clearance they needed by the NSA to investigate and were forced drop the whole thing and even the otherwise good Lehrer, nor his Dem Senator guest knew enough to bring that up.

    BUT, I do feel that almost everyone opposed to the program is already opposed to Bush and the recent drop in poll numbers have more to do with his base leaving him over issues like immigration (I even read the word "impeach" over the issue at a right wing site). The only positive things you hear about Bush from ANYONE are those that agree with his use of the NSA, war, etc.

    I do believe we have a constitutional crisis on our hand, but I believe the penchant for "fear" in the US is still strong enough that we should let him lose his base on Immigration, then look for justice after his demoralized base fails to show up for the midterms, the stick it to him.

    The only way I've heard this topic framed in a good way was when Cafferty said something to the affect of, "Stop wasting our money and invading our privacy spying on Americans and secure our borders, inspect our ports, and find Osama Bin Laden."

    The only way Dems can bring up the terror subject is to continually pound on the genuine failures of the administration, and to not get bogged down in the legality of a vague subject matter that might actually have some anti-terrorism uses.

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  42. bart: This claim might have some merit if Mr. Krebs actually knew what NSA was doing and actually knew what results were being achieved.

    Bart, you may be a lawyer but you're obviously not a systems architect or techlogically savvy person. There's only so much that software engineers can do with the technology, and what they can and can't do is known to everyone with knowledge and expertise in the field.

    As strange as it might be to you, the people developing and running these programs are not the smartest technos in the US. They are smart, yes (I have met some of them who work on nukes), but they are not the cream of the crop--those are the ones who work at the corporations for the 6 and 7 figure salaries.

    There is also the fact that everyone needs to go to school and learn from Herr Doktor Professors. Even the NSA systems analysts, architects and designers. They learned the same stuff as everyone else--the same engineering principles, the same tech history, etc. You don't just make this stuff out of nothing.

    The point being: anything the NSA does is easily understtod in principle by many graduate-level software engineers. Once you know the principles of the science and the available research, you know what tech can and can't do. That's the nature of electro-mechanical systems.

    Therefore, your statement not only shows ignorance about the nature of technology and what these systems can and can't do, you also show something of a misplaced trust in the government's ability to make something other people can't.

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  43. Anonymous2:12 PM

    Look, all polls are done by DESIGN, right? And if their is a DESIGN, then there has to be a DESIGNER!

    Therefore, proclaimations about the public's wild support of domestic spying have to be true, you know, they are coming from a higher power that I choose to call God.

    Why do so many think it is their role to question the MSM. Just go with the flow.

    ACCEPTANCE IS THE ANSWER TO ALL OF LIVES PROBLEM!

    ...and compliance helps too.

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  44. Actually the program has identified hundreds of terrorists. They've just been dealt with extrajudiciously.

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  45. Anonymous2:15 PM

    the cynic librarian, you are the leader of all the small-minded troll feeders here.

    Are you just stupid or do you have nothing to do sitting in a library somewhere?

    Maybe you think you know EVERYTHING and feel an overwhelming urge to tell the world, but please....

    Get lost in the stacks...

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  46. Anonymous2:16 PM

    Has anyone determined whether Democrats are going to call for the NSA to turn in their phonebooks?

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  47. Anonymous2:18 PM

    To achieve this, you need far more information than is provided in these records, which do not include the identity of the telephone number owner, the identity of the actual persons on the call or the content of the call.

    Abs-o-lutely right!

    To true believers like Bart, this signifies who completly harmless this, and how warm and fuzzy it makes hiim feel.

    To me, this signfies something much deeper and darker.

    I have a hard time beleiving our benovalent decider just decided to collect this data for a hobby. Without some way to quantify such data, its worthless!

    So Bart supports wasting even more taxpayer dollars?

    I would like to think no breathing human could be this stupid, but apparently Bart, by his own admission, is.

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  48. Anonymous2:19 PM

    Anyway, this is the Oval Office. It's a shrine to democracy. And we treat it that way.... It is to be respected and honored because the office of the President is bigger than the person who occupies it. It's one of the great things about a true democracy -- is that the institutions outlast the individuals, and therefore, there's stability in the process.

    -George W. Bush

    Yes. The institutions outlast the individuals. Doesn't that explain exactly why the "opposition" party keeps going along with the Buscho run-away power grab?

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  49. phd9: Actually the program has identified hundreds of terrorists. They've just been dealt with extrajudiciously.

    According to FBI sources, the program has done nothing of the kind. It's led to hundreds of false leads and dead-ends.

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  50. Anonymous2:19 PM

    Meanwhile, the FBI raided the home of Dusty Foggo - the CIA's #3 man who recently resigned.

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20060512-0906-foggo.html

    Bart,

    You better call Mr. Rove and get the latest talking points on this.

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  51. Anonymous2:20 PM

    Ben Masel wrote: [license] Plate recognition is much easier than face recognition, especially as cars all face directly ahead,so no rotation algorithm's needed.

    Granted, Ben, but that begs the question of how do they know exactly which license plate number to target in the first place?

    What is in public view is "fair game" and license plates are no exception. Now you've made me wonder if it was a federal grant that bought the hardware. 'Cause you know if that's the case the agreement was to share data.

    More data points for the data-miners, where there's never a methane explosion or cave in.

    My question remains: Given the fact that all these numbers and call times actually have been collected and stored (another dimension not discussed in sufficient depth) what is it exactly that the NSA (or apparantly any other federal agency) do with them? And not in the specific "targeted" way the administration is talking about. I mean full-bore hard-core analysis of every node's relationship to every other node.

    --

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  52. Anonymous2:25 PM

    CNN.com poll:
    Created: Thursday, May 11, 2006, at 10:58:16 EDT
    How does the report that the NSA is building a database of Americans' phone calls make you feel?
    Creepy 75% 142928 votes
    More secure 25% 46497 votes
    Total: 189425 votes

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  53. phd9: Actually the program has identified hundreds of terrorists. They've just been dealt with extrajudiciously.

    According to FBI sources, the program has done nothing of the kind. It's led to hundreds of false leads and dead-ends.

    Sorry, I forgot the snark indicator.;-)

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  54. keith: I know it feels good but stop feeding bart. He called you a terrorist supporter. All of his arguments are meaningless after that. He is anti-american.

    Bart's one of those who sometimes asks good questions and tries to deal with issues in a semi-honest way. I see no reason to lump him with other trolls. Hell, even Jao and Glenn respond to his questions, as do others.

    As far as being anti-american. Yes, I agree. You say he called me a terrorist. No, he called some little demon in his paranoid fantasy that he thinks exists somewhere a terrorist--if he actually faced a real human being and said it to their face, I imagine he'd find himself stopped by a bit of fear and trepidation at his own stupidity.

    to anon: KMA--who made you judge, juror, and exceutioner? Your other presumptions are unwarranted and unworthy of response. Speaking of which, have you ever noticed how few people actually do reply to your many snarky beside-the-point off-issue look-at-me comments?

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  55. Anonymous2:32 PM

    Two points. First, about the polls, CNN had a Quick Poll yesterday. Yes, the poll is not scientific, but does lead one to suspect the polls that support the president...when I captured the results to post to another forum it was roughly 4:30 pm Eastern:

    "How does the report that the NSA is building a database of Americans' phone calls make you feel?"

    Creepy 77% 61664 votes

    More secure 23% 18902 votes

    Total: 80566 votes

    Second point. Having had relatives who lived in a totalatarian society, nobody is considered innocent. The fatal mistake Americans make is the assumption that the government police agencies only go after "evil-doers", and so giving up civil rights for security is a-ok. No harm, no foul.

    The very fact of obtaining phone records from tens of millions who are law abiding indicates that Bush and Company believe the records can somehow provide information or patterns about terrorists. The implication is clear--the populace at large is somehow guilty of something, otherwise why pursue such common acts as calling a innocent friend or relative.

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  56. the cynic librarian said...

    bart: This claim might have some merit if Mr. Krebs actually knew what NSA was doing and actually knew what results were being achieved.

    Bart, you may be a lawyer but you're obviously not a systems architect or techlogically savvy person. There's only so much that software engineers can do with the technology, and what they can and can't do is known to everyone with knowledge and expertise in the field.


    OK. lets say that Mr. Krebs has correctly identified that NSA is performing social network analysis on this data.

    Here is a good description of social network analysis.

    http://www.tcf.org/list.asp?type=NC&pubid=1239

    To date, the published and non classified results of this analysis provide a relatively low but still significant hit rate which can be substantially improved the more telephone numbers you know belong to the enemy.

    Mr. Krebs' main complaint appears to be that Human intelligence and the surveillance of telephone numbers for which you already have probable cause provide a greater volume of valuable information.

    I agree.

    However, what if you do not have any human intelligence assets in the cell planning the next attack. We didn't have any in the 9/11 cell.

    Moreover, what if you do not have a telephone number to tap, nevertheless probable cause, for the cell planning the next attack. We didn't for the 9/11 cell.

    What social network analysis, albeit with its low return of hits, provides is the identity of the cell members and their telephone numbers so you can them perform HUMINT and then get a warrant to tap their phones.

    Able Danger's data mining program identified the Atta 9/11 cell. If they were not blocked from referring this to the FBI, the FBI could have performed HUMINT on the Atta cell from which FBI could have gathered probable cause to tap the telephones being used by that cell.

    In sum, Able Danger's network analysis was the only means which we successfully found this 9/11 cell.

    The fact that some intelligence collection methods are easier or provide a better return does not mean that other intelligence collection methods with a lesser return are also not critical because they cover areas which the other collections methods miss.

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  57. Anonymous2:33 PM

    "The annihilation of the individual self and the attempt to overcome thereby the unbearable feeling of powerlessness are only one side of the masochistic strivings. The other side is the attempt to become a part of a bigger and more powerful whole outside of oneself, to submerge and participate in it. This power can be a person, an institution, God, the nation, conscience, or a psychic compulsion. By becoming part of a power which is felt as unshakably strong, eternal, and glamorous, one participates in its strength and glory. One surrenders one’s own self and renounces all strength and pride connected with it, one loses one’s integrity as an individual and surrenders freedom; but one gains a new security and a new pride in the participation in the power in which one submerges. One gains also security against the torture of doubt. The masochistic person, whether his master is an authority outside of himself or whether he has internalized the master as conscience or a psychic compulsion, is saved from making decisions, saved from the final responsibility for the fate of his self, and thereby saved from the doubt of what decision to make, he is also saved from the doubt of what the meaning of his life is or who 'he' is. These questions are answered by the relationship to the power to which he has attached himself. The meaning of his life and the identity of his self are determined by the greater whole into which the self has submerged."

    - Erich Fromm, Escape from Freedom

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  58. Anonymous2:46 PM

    This Washington Post-ABC News poll was conducted by telephone May 11, 2006 among 502 randomly selected adults nationwide.

    This is preposterous. The majority of these people probably hadn't even heard yet about the the bulk of the information revealed in the USA Today article which had just come out and had not yet started being debated.

    Below is the more relevant poll. When the numbers of those polled got up to about 150,000 responses (before the poll was taken down) the percentages remained the same.

    How do you feel about the government's database of domestic phone calls?
    It bothers me 76%
    I'm OK with it 24%
    Total Votes: 60,755


    Those who voted in this poll online were aware of the USA article.

    That's probably why the Washington Post, Water Carriers extraordinaire, did their own poll as an attempt to counter.

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  59. Anonymous2:46 PM

    Bart's one of those who sometimes asks good questions and tries to deal with issues in a semi-honest way.

    And I thought that librarians had specialty training to "parse" questions and determine what they are really all about.

    Guess I was wrong.

    At least you seem to miss that our resident troll is just spewing venom in the threads and you are failing to acknowledge that chimpy is wildly unpopular anyhow.

    You cannot possibly be a professional reference librarian if you think there is value in partaking in this sideshow.

    Please spare us the egotisical rants and links about info that the VAST MAJORITY would not question anyhow.

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  60. So that others might understand issues involved in social network analysi--an issue bart says Krebs does not understand--consider Krebs' map of two organizations. The question is--based on that map, which one do you say is al-Qaeda, and why?

    Of course, the problem involved in any such discipline as this is that an extensive expertise is required to make an educated guess. Second, the more you learn about the subject area of expertise, it starts looking something like an art rather than a science. That means there's no absolute certainty involved at all. You can increase the certainty, but it would mean including factors that the NSA has not incorporated into their system.

    Bart, which one do you choose? Why?

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  61. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  62. Anonymous2:52 PM

    I wonder if there is a connection between the availability of phone records for sale by obscure companies in the last few years (see AmericaBlog for background), and this NSA phone records program that apparently involves up to a 100 subcontractors. Have these NSA subcontractors been playing with side-business ideas like creating off-shoots selling phone records ($100 for a days' worth of calls or so)?

    It certainly seems to fit with (i) the speed of response - getting anyone's phone records within an hour or so - and (ii) the (vague) denials of big phone companies that they have anything to do with it.

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  63. Anonymous2:54 PM

    I didn't like how Russ Feingold went about pushing his censure resolution, but I was for it in the end. Now, I find myself pretty speechless. Russ did the right thing, I'm learning so more and more.

    And that 502 telephone sample poll in the Post--what a waste.

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  64. Anonymous2:56 PM

    Wow, Eric Fromm. Reminds me of when receiving MANAS made my day. But I digress.

    Thanks for calling MK out, again.

    But don't forget how right he was about welfare reform. We know he was, because he tells us so often, in so many different ways. He knows lots about cars, too, because he tells us it is so. We can also thank him for teaching us that "income equality" is so passe. As long as we're "civil" to them, poor children can eat dirt.

    So don't forget to be "civil", eat your broccoli, and don't take any position the WP poll proves is unpopular. Above all, remember that speaking truth to power is just not funny!!!!!

    RIP Mick.

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  65. phd9 wrote:

    Actually the program has identified hundreds of terrorists. They've just been dealt with extrajudiciously.

    You're claiming some sort of inside knowledge?


    Ok, let me explain.

    Keith said:
    Its funny, for all the monitoring thats being done what do we have to show for it?

    Which prompted me to put on my tinfoil hat for a moment and imagine that if we had a super-secret program that was designed to catch terrorists, the what's to prevent us from having a super-secret program that disappears them to Eastern Europe, where they are held without charge, subject to cruel interrogation techniques and then summarily executed.

    Hence my comment about them being dealt with "extrajudiciously"

    I am fully aware that the NSA program has to-date been a failure.

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  66. I wonder if NSA is going to look into determining who was called for this poll so they can investigate those who oppose the program.

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  67. i was planning to post my own analysis of this very flawed poll, whose questions must have been written by karl rove himself, but i see that glenn, as usual, has already said just about all that needs to be said about it. thanks again! hopefully, people will start to calm down and properly ignore it.

    ... i'm glad you asked

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  68. Anonymous3:19 PM

    Excellent. 71 Dems have stopped lying about their support for intelligence gathering on al Qaeda. Let the debate be joined during the elections!

    We shouldn't go so fast that we fail to take note of signs of victory.

    If one believes that Bart is speaking for the government, as I always have, this one statement of his represents a tremendous victory for all those who oppose the direction into which Bushco has been, and is further attempting to lead this country.

    The thrust of Bart's entire position on these threads during all these months has been "It's all about Al Qaeda."

    In light of all that's come out his above statement dramatically points out the following:

    They've hit bottom now. They've scraped the bottom of the barrel and there's nothing left but the sound of a tin spoon stratching against some rotten wood.

    Their only argument, an argument which once persuaded a somnambulent public, now reads as outright buffoonery.

    On Sept. 11, 2001 and decreasingly thereafter, the country believed "national security measures" were about Al Qaeda.

    It's been a long educational process for almost all of us (although there were some astute observers who never bought into that myth) but almost everyone now realizes the picture has been greatly distorted.

    Maybe not all yet realize it's about the introduction of a police state, but at least that's the issue on the table now instead of Al Qaeda.

    No matter how hard "they" try, the steady stream of facts from a wide variety of sources have now exposed the myth.

    It's almost a little sad how pathetic they look in their attempts now to throw hissy fits and tantrums because they have lost their major talking point and are thus losing their audience.

    Almost.

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  69. Anonymous3:20 PM

    The easy answer to this is what they will do with it potentially.

    So, if they don't do ANYTHING with it, have they broken the law? If it's only used to intercept terrorists' calls, has anything illegal taken place?

    Or are you saying that something's potential use is what makes its use illegal? Using this logic, drinking alcohol should be illegal, because I could potentially drive drunk and kill someone.

    I'm still confused.

    TV (Harry)

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  70. Anonymous3:27 PM

    eyes wide open said:

    Yes. The institutions outlast the individuals. Doesn't that explain exactly why the "opposition" party keeps going along with the Buscho run-away power grab?

    I think that is exactly why the "opposition" party goes along with it. They are eagerly looking forward to the day when Hillary! can be the "unitary executive".

    They may be disappointed. It's hard to believe that Bush & Co have spent all this effort creating the Imperial presidency only to hand it over to somebody else.

    OTOH we may already have a unitary Party, in which case it wouldn't really matter, would it?

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  71. The easy answer to this is what they will do with it potentially.

    So, if they don't do ANYTHING with it, have they broken the law? If it's only used to intercept terrorists' calls, has anything illegal taken place?


    It's worth repeating. The issue isn't that the NSA program is going on. The issue is that the President is trying to position the Commander in Chief role as being above the law. If he succeeds in putting that precident in place, then it will be available to all future presidents.

    This must be fought, because no matter how you feel about the domestic spying issue, a President who considers herself above the law is no longer accountable to the American people and our grand 200 year experiment will have failed.

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  72. Anonymous3:34 PM

    Cynic,

    You are part of the reason that people get away with calling Americans terrorist supporters for challenging this administration. He responds in a semi-honest way? WTF is that? Anyone who wips out the "you support terrorists" needs to be shut down immediatly. You, like the spineless dems often do, only ligitamize that behavior by not denouncing it and refusing to engage these people. Glenn should not either.

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  73. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  74. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  75. The recent poll about the NSA phone-tapping scandal points up several issues that serve to cover up the underlying problems. On the face of it, the poll represents something very simple about most people in a modern, secular society run by technocrats, bureaucrats, professional politicans, spin-mesiters, and various other subjec matter experts in technology.

    This very simple fact is that most people simply don't know enough to make an educated decision. Indeed, most people don't have the time, inclination, desire or even intelligence to want to make an educated decision.

    Without supporting evidence to the contrary, therefore (and as Glenn rightly points out)--most people will simply go with the experts, their gut feelings, and the presumption that these decisions are made by people who do have the knowledge, data, and information to make the right decision.

    After all, that's what we do in a representative democracy. We elect people who are paid to have the time to investigate these things and to act on our behalf. They're the ones who are supposed to look out for our interests.

    There are several possible aspects to this situation. The present discussion about the NSA spying program(s) deals with highly technical, arcane, abstruse, and generally inaccessible areas of technological know-how that most people just don't want to deal with.

    Add to this the fact that even among those who do have the knowledge and expertise there are disagreements about how the technology can and can't work. My discussion with bart exhibits just one such area of disagreement. In the area of social network analysis you have expert vs. expert fighting over the idea that the NSA program is even workable.

    Bracketing for a moment the question of who's right or not, a larger question then presents itself: who determines who's right, why do they choose that answer, and what will they do with it?

    The conundrum of having competing groups of experts arguing over the right answer is best exemplified by the continuing debate over the intel leading to the Iraq war. Here you saw experts from both sides saying this that and the other thing.

    The very fact of disagreement created an opportunity, therefore, for political interests to exploit that uncertainty for their purposes. Those with the most power will impose their interpretation of the facts, backed by their experts, to carry out policy.

    To my mind, if you have a politican who says their interpretation is the only one, you are seeing someone who's either a liar or a very self-decieved mind. This ultimately means, I think, that it's not a matter of the facts but the political will to believe and enforce one interpretation of the facts.

    This leads to one further consideration about the difference between politics and morality. That is, given the fact that experts disagree and will always disagree, what do we rely on to make decisions? True, we live in a world of probabilities, and often the best argument is the one that points to an interpretation that is seemingly the most probable.

    In the hands of politicians and spin-mesiters, however, the probability can become very confused very quickly. In this sense, you begin not to deal with facts or probabilities but other factors that include biases, beliefs, stereotypes, fears, and other psychological factors.

    One question that gets lost in the battle of the experts is a simple, yet seemingly vaporous thing of the past. This is the question of morality. For me, this is exemplified in something that former UN arms inspector in Iraq, Scott Ritter, often says: no matter the debate one way or the other, the simple fact is that the invasion of Iraq was outright immoral. It is that sense of moral outrage that gets lost in the debates about the facts between the brainiacs, tech gurus, and politicos.

    In the question about NSA spying, the moral question is about how does it affect us as moral beings. What effect does living in a society based on government spying have on how people understand themselves as moral beings? Doesn't such a situation lead not to moral behavior but programmed and conformist behavior because it takes responsibility out of the picture altogether?

    I know, it's all reminiscent of A Clockwork Orange and 1984. Well, I won'tmake excuses for those great works. They are great not because they reflect a certain time/place but because they deal with questions that point to a otential future whose reality we are or are not living.

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  76. This is the same man, Richard Morin, who felt it was "too soon" to poll on impeachment early this year. As far as I know the WashPost-ABC polling outfit has still not asked the impeachment question. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but please do so with a link). Yet his outfit did immediate impeachment polling when the Monica blue dress garbage broke.

    Similarly, it's somehow vital to have a pre-emptive instant poll, less than 24 hours after most people learn of the program, about the NSA call records. This poll couldn't be a more blatant effort to buy off the large finger-to-the-wind segment of our current "representatives."

    Sorry, Richard Morin gives every sign of being a partisan rather than professional pollster. And the American people, or at least 300 of the ones called for this poll, seem to prefer living in a national security state to a free republic.

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  77. Anonymous3:45 PM

    Glen Greenwald Said:

    "We go through the same empty rituals and are subjected to the same worthless warnings over and over and over from the same know-nothing, pompous pundits. When the NSA..." story first broke

    When reading these words I thought you were talking about your own posts and the vast majority of commenters here.

    I find all the chicken little talk about how the sky is falling on our rights and liberties and the terrorists have won if the government has an anonymous database of phone numbers called. People, real everyday people, might pay more attention to your dire warnings if they weren't so irrelevant to what is actually happening. Those of you screaming about the constitution is thrown away, the sky is falling, cats and dogs are living together, etc. are all acting like the government is randomly invading homes of ordinary citizens on a regular basis and carting them off to re-education camps. That just isn't happening. Its hard to get worked up into a mouth foaming rabid state when the alleged problem is to 99.99% of the citizens an intrusion on their liberty so minor, so inconsequential, that they are completely unaware of the intrusion and it has absolutely NO, NONE, NADA effect on their daily lives.

    But some will say well yeah, but just wait if they get away with this then random home invasions and re-education camps are just around the corner. To this I say bollocks, the American people know when to get concerned and elect different politicians and change the laws and the courts. If *real* as opposed to *theoretical* invasions of liberty began to start happening, invasions of liberty that affected people's daily lives, the politicians involved would be done away with in short order.

    So for me and I suspect the vast majority of the american people I say GMAFB. Its rational to be more afraid of what the terrorists want to do to us than it is to be afraid of our own government's efforts to try and find the terrorists. If that equation should change, the people will change the government. Until then I feel much more endangered by the ACLU and those who want to protect me from the governments efforts to catch criminals and terrorists than I do by the government's efforts to catch criminals and terrorists.

    Remember its not conservatives that have re-education camps. That's the province of the left.

    Says the "Dog"

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  78. Keith, You propose a false dichotomy. There's an alternative to shutting them down. That's rational, civil discourse. The alternative to this, for me at least, seems exactly what we are supposed to be fighting: open, free, open-minded speech. Your view seems the extreme obverse of the present admin's cult of secrecy, ie, it shuts down discussion at the root, often with a threat attached.

    Now, as alarmed as I am by recent developments (impending Iran attack, NSA spying, Bush stoopidity, neocon attempts at carrying out an at the top putsch), I still believe that such discourse is the best avenue of attack.

    But I am keeping other options on the table, so to speak.

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  79. Anonymous3:55 PM

    Wow, the trolls are becoming more tense, shrill, and off-topic...

    There are really just shills, not people that have any vested interested in this country's well-being or the truth.

    They are watching the chimperor crumble before them, running out of ways to spin it, and now just spew mean-spirited nonsense, hoping to create a negative atmosphere in a generally meaningful dialog.

    Guess their moto is:

    If ya can't dazzle 'em with your brilliance, just pee in their sandbox!

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  80. Anonymous3:57 PM

    Oh, and please don't add your own urine... It doesn't work to try and wash out piss with more piss.

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  81. Anonymous4:06 PM

    Well Glenn, I think it's time for an apology to Bush.

    You've been pounding him for quite some time now and have yet to produce anything substantive as evidence. Put another way, Bush is guilty of whatever you can plausibly smear him with whether or not evidence supports your position.

    He didn't illegaly wiretap, he didn't illegaly eavesdrop. You have admitted that you have no idea what's going on, but it didn't stop you from supporting investigations, calls for censure, and pushing for the possibility of impeachment.
    Are you going to at least pretend neutrality or put up a sign declaring this blog as part of the fever swamp?

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  82. Anonymous4:08 PM

    I have heard it discussed that the information gathered was "call logs."

    What exactly is a call log? The phone company call accounting system comes to mind. This is the system that any switched call uses to accually record usage in order to bill for it. The information in this repository includes name, address of owner of both sides of the call.

    The more draconiam light signal splices on the other hand contain only the raw endpoint signatures and the content of the call/message. Very simple to use the previous repository to dig up the ownership of each end. But this is more insidious because it contains content.

    Email and other internet messages are a different story. Lots more goodies in those records.

    My guess is that old records are usefull only for building graphs of calling patterns. Such a runtime graph would be rather large. How many calls have you ever made? But there are mathematical graph analysis techniques to examine smaller areas of this large graph.

    If I beleived that this information would only be used in the sense of terrorist cell identification as in abledanger, etc. I would see merit in it if ( big if ) there were reasonable oversite. Personally, I don't think that is the case. The information will be used to bust child porn, then drug dealers, and finally everyday opposition to people in charge. The pattern is to inoculate each step from the worst possible upto plain old opposition. ( Anybody opposed must be a terrorist sympathizer, right? )

    sorry to post as anon. Blogger ids for everything I try are taken. And it takes to long to keep retrying.

    bille

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  83. Now, my little (big?) paranoid meter is working overtime these days, I admit, but the following fact just adds one more notch to it: Pentagon begins planning to deploy troops to United States border with Mexico.

    Isn't there a law on the books against mobilizing troops in an offensive posture on US soil?

    What with talk of other troops mobilizing to the Persian Gulf in what seems to be a preparation for an attack on Iran, my inner paranoid daimon is asking: "what if the troops at the border aren't poised to keep illegals out, but to obviate any public and mass demonstrations against the government for attacking/nuking Iran."

    I know, this public voicing of my paranoia is completely irresponsible. Please disregard.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Datamining guru (and self-avowed libertarian) Ryan Singel at wired.com, takes names and numbers in his fact-filled, anxious review of what the NSA is doing and its potential for authoritarian rule:

    But even if you believe (as I do) that the government is using this system as part of good faith attempts to prevent another murderous attack by radical religious extremists, you should be worried.

    Much of this apparatus, including the recently revealed NSA eavesdropping and phone record-mining programs, has no oversight.

    There are no immutable logs, no evidence that internal Inspectors General are watching for abuses, and few reports to Congress. Congress knows little about many of the activities, and those who have learned some basics about programs haven't done the most basic due diligence in making sure the programs are not abused or meet legal muster. ...

    There's literally no oversight of the NSA's domestic activities other than that of lawyers appointed by the same Administration conducting the program.

    And when several of those lawyers balked at the program, they found those objections bought them a one-way ticket to the private sector. ...

    This architecture is too sweeping and too easily turned to illegitimate and un-American purposes to be beyond the Constitution's check and balances.
    One need only to read the introduction chapter to the 1976 Church Committee report on Intelligence and the Rights of Americans to understand this simple principle.

    But even if that turn to the darkside never happens, one doesn't have to look far to see how Kafka-esque consequences flow from well-intentioned surveillance operations.

    That's why the story matters. ...

    ReplyDelete
  85. Anonymous4:30 PM

    Cynic,

    I have no problem with bart posting here. He can post away as far as I'm conserned. Even though it seems like he makes some rational arguments he should disreguarded just as you would someone who said, "you libs should be shot for not suporting the CIC in a time of war." You are encouraging/supporting this when you enguage bart who has said that people here support terrorists. That statement should end any ideas you have about enguaging in "rational civil discourse" with him. You are wasting your time with him. Even though he says some semi-intelligent-like things, how can you take anyone seriously who says you support terrorists? You can't. But you continue to. You should stop. Everyone should. A lot of bat shit crazy people have very high IQ's. They are still bat shit crazy. Just like bart is for calling anyone here a terrorist supporter for speaking out in defense of true American values.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Anonymous4:40 PM

    See actual poll questions. Note absence of the key word: Warrant! If the concepts of warrant or warrantless are not included in the polling question, you can rest assured the data produced is a) flawed and b) Rove inspired.

    Rove wants this issue framed as surveillance of the terrorists. He wants no, I repeat, no mention of lawful warrants to conduct such surveillance.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Meanwhile, in the real world, ever since the NSA scandal was revealed, the President's approval rating has done nothing but plummet. That, of course, does not demonstrate a causal relationship..

    This is one reason why I like Glenn's writing so much. Someone with less integrity would ignore logic, and use a causal relationship that cannot be shown as a prop for their argument. Hell, a lot of pundits on the right would have made this the CORE of their argument. And, considering the aetiological ignorance of their readers, they would have gotten away with it.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous4:46 PM

    Frank Luntz was in Ottawa (capital of my home and native land Canada) last week to meet with prominent conservatives.

    The back story is that, after 12 years of Liberal party rule, the Conservatives under Stephen Harper eked out a minority vicory in an election held earlier this year - mainly due to a 1997-2001 scandal perpetrated by some Liberals involving govenment-sponsored advertising contracts.

    Luntz gave a speech to a group described by the Montreal Gazette as having "close ties to Harper" and advised them as to how to win a majority next time. Here's the money quote:

    "I want you to leave here committed to insisting that the Conservative government hold that previous Liberal government accountable, that you do oversight, that you do investigation, that you continue doing it for the next year so that every Canadian knows and will never forget..."

    So please, Democrats: Take the man's advice. Don't be shy.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Mickey Kaus is a right-wing nut.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Anonymous4:56 PM

    Far from disqualifying Gen. Michael Hayen from the job of CIA director, the political and news media uproar over a report that the NSA is mining data from domestic phone calls only reinforces why Hayden should be confirmed.

    For all the hyperventilating on the TW news and on Capitalo Hill--by Republicans as well as Democrats, sad to say--there is little new in yesterday
    's disclosure by USA Today. And even less to cause American's concern.


    Thus begins today's NY Post editorial, a paper owned by Rupbert Murdock, Hillary's new buddy.

    This is higly alarming for multiple reasons:

    l) The obvious distorted propaganda that attempts to put its "print" on this issue to fool the American people.

    2) The fact that there is nothing in these paragraphs that Hillary Clinton herself, the leading candidate for the Democratic nomination, would disagree with or has come out in disagreement with in a public statement.

    3) The sheer insanity of position and the telling "sad to say."

    They see they have a live one on their hands with this issue, and their propaganda machine has swung into full gear. Malkin's article on this is also carried in the Post, and her motives appear to becoming more and more questionable and possibly very dark.

    Her piece ends with:

    I, for one, will be sure to continue to do business with Verizon, in support of its willingness to cooperate with the government to prevent another 9/11. In fact, I think I'll pick up the phone and give them a call right now. And if you're listening, NSA: thank you!

    If YOU are listening you traitor to America and the Constitution, I suspect I see another motive here on the part of the Government for whom you act as its apologist.

    The Government clearly doesn't want "private" (ha) business such as Verizon to have to answer to their shareholders if their stocks go down because of actions such as these.

    That could be a big deterrent to additional companies following these same policies. Angry shareholders don't have to wait until elections to make their displeasure known: they can just pick up the phone and call their broker and say "SELL."

    Personally I think the NetRoots should address themselves to those tactics now and use the market place itself to get their point across.

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  91. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  92. A couple of facts I remember from an article about 'phone phreaks' (people who used various devices to get free long distance calls). I read the article at least 10 or 15 yrs. ago, so this might not be wholly accurate.

    1)Ma Bell was collecting this type of information for years before de-regulation, and never even told law enforcement officials of the existence of the capability. Bell apparently didn't want the hassle or expense of having to go through these records, sort them out and hand them over to FBI, local, state police, or whoever.

    2)When Bell was broken up into 'baby bells', some of the new entities disclosed that the system existed, and various law enforcement started making use of it, for both evidential and investigative purposes.

    3)The system, which was used by Bell for billing, and also to determine where new equipment should be deployed, was call AMM, for Automated Message Management.

    Anyone who watches Law and Order, or a similar cop show knows that it is now a standard practice to 'pull the LUDS' (Local Usage Data Sheet) of a suspect at the beginning of an investigation.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Anonymous5:02 PM

    I have Bellsouth as my land line. They're one of the companies that gave out their clients phone info, yes? Where do I go to file a class action lawsuit against them for violating the Stored Communications Act?

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous said...

    Meanwhile, the FBI raided the home of Dusty Foggo - the CIA's #3 man who recently resigned.

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20060512-0906-foggo.html

    Bart,

    You better call Mr. Rove and get the latest talking points on this.


    What talking points? DOJ and Justice are also part of the Administration. If Justice can prove a case against the man, send him to prison.

    You may recall that I am the one calling for Justice to investigate and prosecute the traitors leaking from CIA and send them to Super Max out here in Colorado along with the al Qaeda terrorists who they are aiding and abetting.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Anonymous5:07 PM

    Bart, somewhere on this thread, asks how his liberty is being endangered by the data mining going on:

    Here's one man's perspective:

    http://www.buzzflash.com/
    contributors/06/05/con06189.html

    ReplyDelete
  96. Re: the Buzzflash link.

    Greg Pallast can be a little bit over the top a times but it does make for interesting reading.

    ReplyDelete
  97. The poll was intentionally put out before the media offered up any info to Americans. This way they could dictate the poll and give the weekend warriors a stenography talking point. Rove may be down but he certainly ain't out.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anonymous5:32 PM

    Somewhat of a tangent, but I am curious if anyone has any information on what effect (if any) these disclosures have had on the stock or business of the telecom giants. A sharp drop in stock value or loss of customer base may be more telling than any poll as to what the sentiments of Americans are.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Anonymous5:32 PM

    This means we have 209,971,235 Americans that are Al Qaeda.

    Yikes. It's amazing the Empire State Building is still standing. For such a large group of people, they certainly are disorganzied. Maybe they drink.

    If it turned out Bush authorized research into human cannibalism, the Bushies would fall right in line and cheer if some silly poll indicated public approval.

    I got a good laugh when I read this. A short lived laugh, however, as it quickly dawned on me that it is absolutely true. An argument can be made (and has been made throughout history) for absolutely anything if your audience is uninformed enough, unintelligent enough, distracted enough with their own lives, and your propaganda is swift enough and cleverly enough devised.

    It's really not just this phone records current disclosure. They have and are getting every single tool through which they can manipulate and control people.

    And Big Business is helping them do that. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.

    Maybe you are a nobody who does nothing and they have no interest in you.

    Then one day you are given a parking ticket unfairly (could be anything), talk back to the "meter maid" and suddenly they develop an "interest" in you. You are a "feisty" person who doesn't defer to authority and they can't have that. And they sure know where to then go to find out everything they want to know about you.

    You're theirs.

    ReplyDelete
  100. We're talking about a survey of 500 people that WaPo found available at 3am.

    Remind me again who are the "journalist wannabes" that are "just a bunch of guys in their pajamas"?

    ReplyDelete
  101. Who I call, and when I call them, is none of the government's damn business. This country was founded on the principles of limited government, to protect enormous personal liberty.

    The phone company can have that info, because it needs to connect the call, and bill me, and I agreed to that. But the government has no business with that information, unless it can prove to a court that there is a reasonable suspicion that I have committed a crime, or that there is a serious threat to the nation. That's it. We have a Constitution, and black-letter law that support this.

    There has been no proof produced before a court, because there is none, that I am a criminal or a threat, so the government should butt out. It's that simple.

    We can argue whether the technique does or doesn't work, or whether their time would be better spent elsewhere, but the fundamental truth is that the government has no right to do this, under our system.

    It surprises me that more people don't angrily resent it. It's just none of their damn business.

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  102. Anonymous5:41 PM

    Thank you to the poster who posted the link to Glad You Asked (which links to Glenn's post of today), a blog I had never seen before.

    That is an excellent example of another fine blog with worthwhile discussion going on.

    Others might want to check that out. In many ways, it's very refreshing.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Robert1014 said...

    Bart, somewhere on this thread, asks how his liberty is being endangered by the data mining going on:

    Here's one man's perspective:

    The Spies Who Shag Us

    The Times and USA Today have Missed the Bigger Story -- Again

    A BUZZFLASH GUEST CONTRIBUTION
    by Greg Palast

    I know your shocked -- SHOCKED! -- that George Bush is listening in on all your phone calls. Without a warrant. That's nothing. And it's not news.


    Lie #1.

    This is: the snooping into your phone bill is just the snout of the pig of a strange, lucrative link-up between the Administration's Homeland Security spy network and private companies operating beyond the reach of the laws meant to protect us from our government. You can call it the privatization of the FBI -- though it is better described as the creation of a private KGB.

    The leader in the field of what is called "data mining," is a company, formed , called, "ChoicePoint, Inc," which has sucked up over a billion dollars in national security contracts.

    Worried about Dick Cheney listening in Sunday on your call to Mom? That ain't nothing. You should be more concerned that they are linking this info to your medical records, your bill purchases and your entire personal profile including, not incidentally, your voting registration. Five years ago, I discovered that ChoicePoint had already gathered 16 billion data files on Americans -- and I know they've expanded their ops at an explosive rate.


    While I doubt they have your medical records. I already posted here that all the rest of this information is public and on several data bases - including your voting records. Guess how they redistrict with house to house accuracy?

    They are paid to keep an eye on you -- because the FBI can't. For the government to collect this stuff is against the law unless you're suspected of a crime. (The law in question is the Constitution.)

    This is also incorrect. Nothing in the Constitution prevents the government from collecting your personal information. See the IRS, the Census Bureau, Medicare, Medicaid, SS, VA and the military just to name a few agencies. All the restrictions on data collection and sharing are statutory.

    But ChoicePoint can collect if for "commercial" purchases -- and under the Bush Administration's suspect reading of the Patriot Act -- our domestic spying apparatchiks can then BUY the info from ChoicePoint.

    This is more than possible. The data are all public. However, exactly what does this have to do with the sharing of telephone records, which is far less invasive than this?

    I first ran across these guys in 2000 in Florida when our Guardian/BBC team discovered the list of 94,000 "felons" that Katherine Harris had ordered removed from Florida's voter rolls before the election. Virtually every voter purged was innocent of any crime except, in most cases, Voting While Black. Who came up with this electoral hit list that gave Bush the White House? ChoicePoint, Inc.

    Lie #2.

    Florida has their own databases and shares other national data bases of your criminal records. I used them on every case as prosecutor. The list used to purge felons had a less than 2% error rate.

    OK, I have to go back to work now and don't have any more time to waste on this drivel.

    As soon as you come up with something concerning the actual telephone records, you let me know...

    ReplyDelete
  104. In 1984, the one thing that Winston always believed even when facing his own death was that he would “still hate Big Brother.”

    Yet, by the end of the book, when the “re-programming” was finally successful, Winston realized one truth above all, “He loved Big Brother.”

    Right Blogostan is positively jubilant that the years of their propaganda and “re-programming” has finally been successful and the American public now loves Big Brother and embraces an authoritarian government that monitors their phone calls and their private lives.

    However, I think that says a lot more about them than it does the American public.

    Yesterday, as I walked into the club where I work out, Leahy was on the TV obviously angry, and a friend of mine was angry at him for being upset that NSA was collecting data on everyone. He angrily said, “So what? - what do I care if they know who I call!”

    First, I explained how this totally contradicted what the administration had been telling us for the last years, citing their lies. He remained unconvinced. But then, as I explained the potential for abuse, he came around. It had simply not occurred to him the myriad of ways this information could be abused and the lack of oversight.

    Now he’s rather conservative and passionately hates Hillary and Clintons. When I laid out several ways that a “President Hillary” could use this information against her political enemies and businesses who don’t support her (and the potential for corruption) he became convinced and came out against the program after all.

    That took me less than 10 minutes. As the public slowly becomes aware of the potential for abuse, I think they will have second thoughts about embracing Big Brother.

    In short, the “re-programming” that has been done on the frightened American public by the Bushies and their acolytes in the media has not been internalized and can be undone and reversed with a quiet explanation of the relevant facts, and by raising pointed questions about the type of government they really want to live under.

    Yes, there is fear, but I don’t believe that it has become so fundamental to our basic worldview that most Americans are now willing to sacrifice our basic democratic values and beliefs.

    If that does happen, it would be the greatest victory Osama could have hoped for.

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  105. Anonymous5:51 PM

    Here's another reporter's perspective on the datamining:

    http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/051106.html

    I'd also like to see your documentation that the felon purge list used by Florida in 2000 had an error rate of less than 2%.

    This goes against any reporting on the matter I've seen, and even against Florida's own admission to the errors contained in the list.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Anonymous5:55 PM

    My fellow Americans,

    We are at war. During war time, intelligence gathering is a necessary and important part of my Article II powers. That is why I have sent a crack team of operatives into the Wategrate Hotel to bug the offices of the enemy, the Democrats.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Anonymous5:56 PM

    I think that this scandal will yet again show the power of the blogosphere. While some national Dems might waffle for a bit I think that they are finding themselves caught between a rock (the punditocracy) and a hard place (us).

    The time lag between the waffling because of their fear of right wing talking points and standing up because of the support from (or fear of) blogs keeps getting smaller. Every time we run through this cycle the online impact gets more efficient. I'm seeing more concerns of the blogosphere showing up in news coverage where even a year ago it was slim pickings.

    Maybe it is wishful thinking, but imagine the potential impact of the left blogosphere in the fall elections. The ability to counter Rove and other's right wing techniques for keeping the general public docile is growing.

    Keep up the good work Glenn!

    - Geekmouth

    ReplyDelete
  108. Anonymous5:57 PM

    Listen people, it is really simple:

    1. When we're talking about a wiretap we're talking about a court order. LIE

    2. We are only monitoring overseas communications. LIE

    3. We are only monitoring domestic calls that connect to known terriorist international numbers. Lie

    4. We are only keeping track of domestic numbers and call patterns. No content. Any bets on this one?

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anonymous5:59 PM

    Here is the link to the site robert 1014 referenced.

    Consortium news

    Copying and pasting robert's link didn't work for me.

    From the little I just read (I'm going back there in a minute) that too looks like a terrific site. I highly recommend a visit.

    United we stand.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Anonymous6:02 PM

    The polls are being taken out of context and any numbers that get waved in your face no do not include reactions to the latest WH scandal, one so deep, they even had to disrupt Rove's teaparty for hayden and put the smirking chimp in front of the camera.

    They know this one is going to hurt.

    BE SURE TO TAKE THIS POLL

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3080261/

    Currently 76% ARE concerned about this!

    ReplyDelete
  111. Anonymous6:06 PM

    To believe that the government can be trusted to remain within the law without oversite is not only stupid, it ignores logic, history and basic human nature. THATS WHY AMERICA WAS FOUNDED USING THE CONSTITUTION, THE RULE OF LAW, AND CHECKS AND BALANCES. NO EXCEPTIONS. NOT EVEN NATIONAL SECURITY. I DON'T CARE HOW SCARED YOU ARE! Nothing matters if there is no oversite. Period.

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  112. Anonymous6:06 PM

    cynic librarian, you have convinced me that funding to public libraries need to be cut back.

    You have nothing interesting to say on this and constantly call out our trolls.

    You must not have enough constructive things to do - it is time to close the reference desk?

    Please, you are not that insightful, ooze arrogance, and constantly make childish points as if they are some form of great intellectual insight.

    ITS TIME TO DEFUND LIBRARIES and it the nonstop display of self-importance, arrogance, yup truly pathetic troll baiting continues, IT IS TIME TO BURN BOOKS TOO!

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous6:11 PM

    Eyes Wide Open said...
    Here is the link to the site robert 1014 referenced.

    Consortium news

    Copying and pasting robert's link didn't work for me.

    From the little I just read (I'm going back there in a minute) that too looks like a terrific site. I highly recommend a visit.

    United we stand.


    I only gave you a link to Robert Parry a week ago. If I change my name to Anonymous Rand again, will you pay attention to me then?

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous6:15 PM

    Anonymous said...
    cynic librarian, you have convinced me that funding to public libraries need to be cut back.


    You can't defund money from a library. They are already as anemic as the stone that is a "compassionate conservative's" heart.

    You have nothing interesting to say on this and constantly call out our trolls.

    That's how square dancing with trolls works. Dosey-do. Your turn.

    ReplyDelete
  115. Anonymous6:19 PM

    ITS TIME TO DEFUND LIBRARIES and it the nonstop display of self-importance, arrogance, yup truly pathetic troll baiting continues, IT IS TIME TO BURN BOOKS TOO!

    Try fueling your Hummer with books. It's got an internal combustion engine.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Anonymous6:20 PM

    Paul Rosenberg:

    Releasing this poll like this is obviously fulfilling a propaganda function. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    Amen.

    It's the way Versailles--not just the GOP--has rallied around him.

    Well, when you start writing about what is actually going on rather than blaming it all on Republicans, I get interested.

    Can you state once more, in two sentences or less :) what you mean when you focus on the "Versailles" mentality?
    (Please do not include anything which has to do with socialism or anarchy, if you would be so kind. Please appeal to a wider audience :)

    The Nightline segment last night was another example. They clearly aren't up to covering topics like that anymore. They should stick to Isabella Rossilini. That segment they handled well. They allowed her to convey a level of complexity and nuance that was utterly inconceivable in their NSA segment.

    I had the exact same reaction to both segments. Aside from Isabella being a highly intriguing "real" individual who has had her foot in many different "worlds", the really heartbreaking and alarming aspect of her life story is how vividly it demonstrates how tragically the lives of individuals (her parents, her siblings and herself) can be thrown into such turmoil and in some ways wrecked when the "mob", led by a savage press egged on by tyrants in government, turns against one for its own reasons and gets the mob to follow.

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  117. Anonymous6:26 PM

    Rachel Maddow this AM on AAR said she believes the repugs are baiting the democrats with the announcement yesterday about the data mining. She pointed out that they were all too ready to take advantage of the opportunity to be strong on war and security while hoping the dems would make a big deal about the civil rights thing and look weak. They were too quick on the comeback for this not to have been a setup as this smacks of Rove all over the place she says.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Anonymous6:55 PM

    posted at "the carpetbagger" earlier.



    [ really!

    this is just a lot of hand wringing.

    i'm confident the explanation is that most respondents had little or no idea what was involved.

    they gave an uninformed off-the-cuff response over the telephone to a question out of the blue.

    respondent ignorance

    and

    question wording

    make most polls shaky bases for any analysis.

    i would bet that if you sat the approving respondents down for a one day seminar/discussion of what was involved both, technically and politically,

    you would get a complete reversal in the numbers. ]


    i would add here at unchart territory:

    i believe there have been a number of demonstrations of just this point done in academia and in media research.

    give people some accurate information and a chance to digest it and discuss it with each other,

    and then observe how they process that information to reach impressively sensible and reasonably unified

    final opinions,

    relative to their first off-the-cuff, off-the-wall opinions and comments.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anonymous: NSA Whistleblower To Expose More Unlawful Activity: ‘People…Are Going To Be Shocked’

    Read satellites. You mean the ones with video cameras that can pick up a license plate from space? ... who knows? Are we really seeing Enemy of the People (the film with Will Smith) put into widespread use here?

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  120. Anonymous7:23 PM

    You can't defund money from a library. They are already as anemic as the stone that is a "compassionate conservative's" heart.

    Well evidently some maintain underutilized computers and personal that have nothing better top do than bait the trolls.

    I can take the arrogance and egotistical, self-importance that they bestow on us, but the constant "one-upping" of the resident trolls is too much.

    Looks like at least one library could cut back some more.

    ReplyDelete
  121. To the Dog:

    "Remember its not conservatives that have re-education camps. That's the province of the left. "

    Does the phrase "arbiet macht frie" ring any bells with you?

    "But some will say well yeah, but just wait if they get away with this then random home invasions and re-education camps are just around the corner. To this I say bollocks, the American people know when to get concerned and elect different politicians and change the laws and the courts. If *real* as opposed to *theoretical* invasions of liberty began to start happening, invasions of liberty that affected people's daily lives, the politicians involved would be done away with in short order."

    Given the various provisions of the Patriot Act - "no knock" searches, for instance, and the "enemy combatant" designation, how can you be sure that nobody has been "disappeared?"

    Especially given the sheer expertese in the practical logistics of such admin cronies as Poyndexter and Negroponte, how, exactly, can you be sure?

    The point here is that when there is a program with undocumented capablity and no oversight, it is prudent to assume that it will be used politically and abusively. If not now, it will be tomorrow.

    It amazes me that Conservatives of any sort would be sanguine about this, much less make the argument that, since the sheeple have not yet stampeded, there is actually nothing to be concerned about.

    I do not consult my neighbors here in the trailor park on matters outside their information sphere and education. To a large degree, it's above my intellectual pay grade as well - which is why I look to sources who can demonstrate some understanding of the technology and potential capabilities.

    THOSE people are concerned.

    It would seem, therefore, that complacency is the product of ignorance, or a willful counterfiet thereof.

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  122. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  123. Anonymous7:48 PM

    BREAKING NEWS!

    Get some popcorn and pull up a comfortable chair. This is just getting started:

    NSA Whistleblower To Expose More Unlawful Activity: ‘People…Are Going To Be Shocked’

    CongressDaily reports that former NSA staffer Russell Tice will testify to the Senate Armed Services Committee next week that not only do employees at the agency believe the activities they are being asked to perform are unlawful, but that what has been disclosed so far is only the tip of the iceberg. Tice will tell Congress that former NSA head Gen. Michael Hayden, Bush’s nominee to be the next CIA director, oversaw more illegal activity that has yet to be disclosed:

    A former intelligence officer for the National Security Agency said Thursday he plans to tell Senate staffers next week that unlawful activity occurred at the agency under the supervision of Gen. Michael Hayden beyond what has been publicly reported, while hinting that it might have involved the illegal use of space-based satellites and systems to spy on U.S. citizens. …

    [Tice] said he plans to tell the committee staffers the NSA conducted illegal and unconstitutional surveillance of U.S. citizens while he was there with the knowledge of Hayden. … “I think the people I talk to next week are going to be shocked when I tell them what I have to tell them. It’s pretty hard to believe,” Tice said. “I hope that they’ll clean up the abuses and have some oversight into these programs, which doesn’t exist right now.” …

    Tice said his information is different from the Terrorist Surveillance Program that Bush acknowledged in December and from news accounts this week that the NSA has been secretly collecting phone call records of millions of Americans. “It’s an angle that you haven’t heard about yet,” he said. … He would not discuss with a reporter the details of his allegations, saying doing so would compromise classified information and put him at risk of going to jail. He said he “will not confirm or deny” if his allegations involve the illegal use of space systems and satellites.

    Tice has a history for blowing the whistle on serious misconduct. He was one of the sources that revealed the administration’s warrantless domestic spying program to the New York Times.

    http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/12/more-unlawful-activity/

    ReplyDelete
  124. anon: You have nothing interesting to say on this and constantly call out our trolls.

    You must not have enough constructive things to do - it is time to close the reference desk?


    Well, I guess if I sat back in the cloud of anonymity shooting non-sequiturs and bits of snark, I might think that I was someone worthy too.

    But then it's hard to keep these anonymice separated. How's the cheese over there in shadow land? Which one are you... Do you know?

    As far as the "insightful, ... arrogance, and ... childish points as if they are some form of great intellectual insight", please feel free to disregard or rebut.

    BTW I'll talk to whom I want, thanks, you troll you.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Anonymous7:49 PM

    Hey Kids! Wave to the nice NSA guys. They may be friendly, they may be not. We just don't know, but they are probably here. (Red blooded, patriotic Americans of every political persuasion are everywhere, including the NSA, so I wouldn't worry too much.)

    AmericaBlog Welcomes the NSA


    Hi! ::::waving::::

    ReplyDelete
  126. Anonymous7:53 PM

    Cynic Librarian said... I guess if I sat back in the cloud of anonymity shooting non-sequiturs and bits of snark, I might think that I was someone worthy too.

    Hey! I resemble that remark! Are you sure you ain't a libertarian who can't spell?

    ReplyDelete
  127. Anonymous8:00 PM

    Anonymous... I can take the arrogance and egotistical, self-importance that they bestow on us, but the constant "one-upping" of the resident trolls is too much.

    Of course you can take the arrogance and egotisticality. (I made that word up just now. Like it?) And I bet you get "one-upped" and "one-offed" often. But let's just get it out of our systems and get back to the matter at hand. Try to understand that these are stressful times for all of us, and some folks try to have a sense of humor about these things. Are you Jan Rooth? As they say in the street, "If you can't take a joke..." You know the rest.

    ReplyDelete
  128. anon: Hey! I resemble that remark! Are you sure you ain't a libertarian who can't spell?

    My apologies to all well-meaning anonymice... even the ones who don't spell correctly, but not the ones who think they can tell people who to talk to and instead of rebuttal take pot-shots.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous8:05 PM

    Bob King said...
    To the Dog:


    Don't talk to dogs with such big words, Bob. They don't understand them. Try, Sit. Heel. Fetch. Roll over. Play dead. Having a rotten old tennis ball in your hand helps. Then quote Adlai Stevenson:

    "I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them."

    ReplyDelete
  130. Glenn, the last line of your post "One can hope."

    Yes indeed, and I will continue to hope, to stand up, to fight, until the last dog dies. What else can we do? Die? I don't think so.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Anonymous8:08 PM

    the cynic librarian said...
    anon: Hey! I resemble that remark! Are you sure you ain't a libertarian who can't spell?

    My apologies to all well-meaning anonymice... even the ones who don't spell correctly, but not the ones who think they can tell people who to talk to and instead of rebuttal take pot-shots.

    8:03 PM


    My friend, no aplogies are necessary. I was only having fun and people really need to grow thicker skins. As Glenn and many of us on the left have been saying, civility is highly over rated. I'd rather be brutally honest than honestly brutal.

    ReplyDelete
  132. Here's the way the question was stated in the WaPo poll:

    "It's been reported that the National Security Agency has been collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans. It then analyzes calling patterns in an effort to identify possible terrorism suspects, without listening to or recording the conversations. Would you consider this an acceptable or unacceptable way for the federal government to investigate terrorism? Do you feel that way strongly or somewhat?"

    First, we have no idea how the phone numbers were used so this question is a lie. Second, can we say BIAS?!?!

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anonymous8:08 PM

    Breaking: Randi Rhodes just announced that Karl Rove has told the WH he WILL be indicted!

    ReplyDelete
  134. Anonymous8:17 PM

    Forget it, the Democrats have already thrown in the towel with Nancy Pelosi promising not to seek Bush's Impeachment should the Democrats regain the House in November.

    Feinstein was ready to back Hayden, then decides to play to the other side of the fence and opine about the 4th Amendment.

    All of which makes Howard Dean's 50-State Strategy meaningless, because the Demos aren't gonna push at all.

    Thanks for nothing, you loser weasel clowns. I think I'll take the money for future donations and go play Texas Hold 'Em in Vegas, I have better odds at actually WINNING SOMETHING.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Brit Hume's report on Fox News states that the records which the telecoms have been providing to NSA are known as call data records or call detail records. It further reports that such records have been routinely provided without warrants to law enforcement for years.

    Indeed, it appears that call data records are readily available and analyzed by business. Try Googling the term.

    Finally, once again the Congressional leadership and intelligence committee was briefed on this NSA data analysis from the beginning.

    Tell me again what rights I have surrendered by having NSA analyze this publicly available data?

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous8:21 PM

    the cynic librarian said...
    Anonymous: NSA Whistleblower To Expose More Unlawful Activity: ‘People…Are Going To Be Shocked’

    Read satellites. You mean the ones with video cameras that can pick up a license plate from space? ... who knows? Are we really seeing Enemy of the People (the film with Will Smith) put into widespread use here?


    Any of you ever take the Amtrak cross country? There is a southern route that goes through NOLA but
    if you took the northern route that snakes through and over the Rockies, you may have seen the famous Colorado river rafter's salute as the train passed by just about any small town. You may know it as "mooning". I think that the NSA will be getting "saluted" often if that's the case. Do you suppose they can make out the one finger salute from way up there?

    ReplyDelete
  137. Anonymous8:21 PM


    Robert1014 said...

    Here's another reporter's perspective on the datamining:
    http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/051106.html


    Robert Parry, you are a complete moonbat! No sane person is going to read your paranoid screed, much less pay good money for it.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Anonymous8:23 PM

    Ian S said...
    Breaking: Randi Rhodes just announced that Karl Rove has told the WH he WILL be indicted!

    8:08 PM


    I never doubted it, but I thought it would come next week.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Anonymous8:25 PM

    Anonymous said...

    Robert1014 said...

    Here's another reporter's perspective on the datamining:
    http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/051106.html


    Robert Parry, you are a complete moonbat! No sane person is going to read your paranoid screed, much less pay good money for it.


    I never had to pay for it. Are you ugly or just the only sane man on the planet? Both perhaps?

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous8:29 PM

    bart said...

    Tell me again what rights I have surrendered by having NSA analyze this publicly available data?


    Bart, you surrendered all your rights when you surrendered your citizenship and your wits. The only thing you haven't surrendered is your willing suspension of disbelief.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Anonymous8:32 PM

    Anonymous said...
    I never had to pay for it. Are you ugly or just the only sane man on the planet? Both perhaps?


    Perhaps you are suffering from multiple personality disorder?

    ReplyDelete
  142. the cynic librarian said...

    So that others might understand issues involved in social network analysi--an issue bart says Krebs does not understand--consider Krebs' map of two organizations. The question is--based on that map, which one do you say is al-Qaeda, and why?

    This is a silly exercise.

    NPR was interviewing another alleged expert and his take was just the opposite.

    He does not claim like Krebs that CIA is taking all of the billions of calls and boiling them down to a cluster of possible al Qaeda telephone numbers.

    Rather, NSA is starting from telephone numbers captured from al Qaeda and then working out to identify other numbers which may be al Qaeda through this network analysis.

    If NSA has the capability of boiling down billions of calls to arrive at these neat patterns and can identify the patterns as terrorist based on some sort of algorithm, then color me very impressed.

    ReplyDelete
  143. Anonymous8:36 PM

    Trolling hysteria hits Unclaimed Territory... Happy Fitzmas everyone... Apparently Rove has told Bush he will be indicted. No link yet but Jason Leopold broke the story.

    ReplyDelete
  144. Anonymous8:38 PM

    Anonymous said...

    Perhaps you are suffering from multiple personality disorder?


    I do have multiple personalities. What's really frightening is that you are one of them.

    ReplyDelete
  145. William Arkin at WaPo (requires subscription) provides the most in-depth, detailed description of the NSA program to date. This article includes history, capabilities, and actual program and sotware descriptions.

    Although there is no evidence that the harvesting programs have been involved in illegal activity or have been abused to reach into the lives of innocent Americans, their sheer scope, the number of "transactions" being tracked, raises questions as to whether an all-seeing domestic surveillance system isn't slowly being established, one that in just a few years time will be able to reveal the interactions of any targeted individual in near real time.

    ReplyDelete
  146. Anonymous said...

    bart said... Tell me again what rights I have surrendered by having NSA analyze this publicly available data?

    Bart, you surrendered all your rights when you surrendered your citizenship and your wits. The only thing you haven't surrendered is your willing suspension of disbelief.


    In other words, you too cannot identify a single right which either you or I have surrendered.

    Thanks for playing.

    ReplyDelete
  147. Anonymous8:41 PM

    "Tell me again what rights I have surrendered by having NSA analyze this publicly available data?"

    If it's so routine, why did Qwest refuse the NSA request and indeed ask for the request to be run through FISA? A request that was apparently denied.

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous8:43 PM

    Ten years from now Bart will still be arguing this case, attempting to re-litigate it. Stare decisis, Bart. Stare decisis.

    ReplyDelete
  149. the cynic librarian said...

    William Arkin at WaPo (requires subscription) provides the most in-depth, detailed description of the NSA program to date. This article includes history, capabilities, and actual program and sotware descriptions.

    Although there is no evidence that the harvesting programs have been involved in illegal activity or have been abused to reach into the lives of innocent Americans...

    This is a refreshing admission after all the misrepresentations and outright lies by the press and politicians and bloggers on the subject.

    ...their sheer scope, the number of "transactions" being tracked, raises questions as to whether an all-seeing domestic surveillance system isn't slowly being established, one that in just a few years time will be able to reveal the interactions of any targeted individual in near real time.

    This is absolutely silly. The government has the capability to impose an incredibly invasive domestic intelligence collection system against the citizenry at any time. The question is whether the government is doing so, which this reporter admits that it is not.

    ReplyDelete
  150. Anonymous8:46 PM


    Anonymous said...
    Trolling hysteria hits Unclaimed Territory


    "We're not mining or trolling"

    ReplyDelete
  151. Ian S said...

    "Tell me again what rights I have surrendered by having NSA analyze this publicly available data?"

    If it's so routine, why did Qwest refuse the NSA request and indeed ask for the request to be run through FISA? A request that was apparently denied.


    My guess would be that they wanted more CYA from whack job civil suits than NSA was willing to provide.

    Going back to the question I actually posed, it appears that you too are unable to name a single freedom either you or I is losing.

    Thanks for playing.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Anonymous8:49 PM

    In other words, you too cannot identify a single right which either you or I have surrendered.

    Thanks for playing.


    Bart, I was hoping you would leave the country since you wet your diaper daily about "terrists" trying to kill you and you now think you will no longer be safe here (Makes me wonder why that 2nd Amendment is so important to you guys, since it's basically useless). I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one in a courtroom like you... (wait, I have actually, In Pro Se, In Pro Per) but even I know the word "privacy" isn't in the Constitution. This is why I like "judicial activists" as long as they aren't Scalitos. I'm glad Renfield the vampire's assistant has found eternal peace.

    ReplyDelete
  153. The link for the Rove indictment article by Jason Leopold is here.

    ReplyDelete
  154. Anonymous9:04 PM

    "My guess would be that they wanted more CYA from whack job civil suits than NSA was willing to provide."

    So , again, if it was as routine as you claim, why would they have to worry about "CYA from whack job civil suits"? After all, routine simply means it's done all the time. And if it's done all the time, there's obviously no concern even about civil suits.

    ReplyDelete
  155. So what are Americans losing by giving all their phone records directly to NSA without a warrant?

    It’s called “checks and balances”; it’s called the “separation of powers” – both of which are fundamental principles that this country was founded upon – the very basis of our democracy.

    Now some of us “patriots” here don’t think that loss is trivial, like our trolls do. Patriots find these loses alarming and threatening, not a cause for celebration.

    Fred Kaplan explains the crucial issue here:

    But here's the crucial issue: The executive branch of the government cannot be trusted with sole access to such massive and intrusive information. This has nothing to do with who the president is; it has everything to do with the nature of power. To dispute this fact is to dispute the need for checks and balances; it's to dismiss the constitutional premise of the U.S. government.

    The problem with the indiscriminate data-mining that USA Today details is that it's not susceptible to warrants. Under FISA, the application for a surveillance order must include the identity or description of the target, the nature and location of the place being tapped, the type of information being sought, how long the monitoring will last, and so forth. There's no way, under any law, that an attorney general could ask any court to approve surveillance of everybody, everywhere, forever. That goes beyond what warrants of any sort can do.


    The reason we have cause to be paranoid, he says, is that Bush and those around him are not interested in checks and balances, and they also believe that what they’re doing is by definition legal.

    In short, they don’t recognize that under our system of government that the executive branch is not the sole determinate of what is legal and what is not. They’ve intentionally avoided the courts (and thus oversight) as to the legality of what they are doing.

    And without any oversight by a court, we face what Kaplan calls the “alarming predicament of facing a president who—at least on this issue—possesses absolute power. Bush and Gonzales may say they won't use the NSA data improperly. But there is nobody who can verify that claim.”

    So, if we want to keep some sort of data-mining program, we need someone outside of the administration who can assure that this information is not being misused.

    Without that, we have lost the basis for our democracy – a very great loss indeed.

    ReplyDelete
  156. Anonymous9:31 PM

    So , again, if it was as routine as you claim, why would they have to worry about "CYA from whack job civil suits"? After all, routine simply means it's done all the time. And if it's done all the time, there's obviously no concern even about civil suits.

    You won't get a coherent answer. I hoisted him on his own petard earlier proving him amongst the stupidist of the the living dead and he never replied.

    Because he can't. Stupid is as stupid does.

    ReplyDelete
  157. Consider Yourselves Lucky to Live in the Xtian Reich

    This story: picture of things to come?

    ...Fisher is on the staff of Revolution Books, and on January 28, while she was putting Bush Step Down posters on telephone polls in Cleveland Heights, she was ordered by a police officer to take them down or face a fine. When she complied, she was asked for her ID, which she did not have on her. He then grabbed her by the arm, pushed her against a store window, and knocked her face down onto the sidewalk. He was joined by another officer, and they both pressed their feet against her back until she could not breathe. Her chin was pressed down into the concrete; Fisher has osteoradionecrosis in her jaw from radiation treatments for cancer.

    Fisher was handcuffed and shackled. During this time, Fisher yelled out to everyone who passed what the posters were about. One of the police officers then told her, Fisher says, to "Shut up or I will kill you! I am sick of this anti-Bush shit! You are definitely going to the psyche ward."

    ReplyDelete
  158. Anonymous9:34 PM


    Anonymous said...

    BREAKING NEWS!

    Get some popcorn and pull up a comfortable chair. This is just getting started:

    NSA Whistleblower To Expose More Unlawful Activity: ‘People…Are Going To Be Shocked’


    Yawn. Tice is a well known leftist

    nutjob
    .

    ReplyDelete
  159. Anonymous9:45 PM

    Anonymous said...


    Yawn. Tice is a well known leftist

    nutjob.



    Talk about shameless self-promotion. This nutjob has to quote himself at his waste of cyberspace.

    Cynic Librarian,

    I get concerned about the bible thumpers too. Check out information on millenarianism. I think it's a natural phenomenon that occurs every 100 years, and hits with an order of ten magnitude every 1000. Throw in 9/11 and you have a volatile mix that should subside as we move away from the marker. I hope.

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous10:01 PM

    if you oppose the administration, you are giving comfort to the enemy. Thus you are the enemy. Hence the spying.

    remember its a clear choice, either we throw away the constitution or we allow a terrorist act.

    is this the america we believe in?

    isn't it really all about control? The pentagon has effectivly taken control of the government. All priorities and decisions are now looked at through a national security lens. money has flowed freely in the dept. of homeland security.

    it can get a lot worse, if we let it. i'm literally praying that we get some power back in nov.

    ReplyDelete
  161. anon @ 9:45pm: Throw in 9/11 and you have a volatile mix that should subside as we move away from the marker.

    Perhaps you are right. But the apocalyptic phenomenon was going on well before 2000. Tim LeHaye's work was preceded by Hal Lindsay in the 70s and 80s.

    I know people who are arranging their lives around this belief. Often, they are passing on the belief to children in a home-school environment. So the children have nothing to gauge the belief against.

    Those who study apocalyptic as a religious and social phenomenon will tell you that the feelings, beliefs, and symbology have their setting in dire social and cultural upheavals. Underlying much apocalyptic thought is a deep despair that God's will is not being done in a world seemingly cut off entirely from that will.

    At its worst apocalyptic feeds an other-worldly longing that repudiates things of this world in favor of a heavenly reward. This can be disastrous on a personal and social level, since it leads to actions that might attempt to bring about that end-time in ways that resemble self-fulfilling prophecies.

    At its best, apocalyptic reflects a powerful spiritual and moral sense for social injustice and political despotism. It's my thinking that apocalyptic is a spiritual despair that seeks a reestablishment of justice and right living.

    Of course, how that gets translated through the various ideological and social conditioning filters informs the type of apocalyptic response that individuals express. Therefore, we see that apocalyptic in LeHaye's work is translated through a socially conservative and possibly fascist filter. The apocalyptic currents of Liberation Theology, on the other hand, is translated through a filter that depends on the experience of living with the poor and dispossessed of the world.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous10:23 PM

    remember its a clear choice, either we throw away the constitution or we allow a terrorist act.

    This is the false dichotomy that the public has been presented with. It angers me no end that the current administration and their supporters believe that the Constitution of the United States is so week that a group of terrorists can spark the inferno that burns through the entire document. I believe that the Constitution makes this country strong.

    The men who wrote our constitution were not weak-kneed pansies. They took action and were thinkers. They carefully considered the balances that were needed for a country to be successfully governed while mitigating against tyrrany.

    Actually, I think the new meme that needs to be propogated is that if the Bush administration has done everything they wanted, including going beyond what is allowed by our laws, then they are 100% responsible for not preventing any and all future attacks by terrorists against this country. We need to start mentioning this frequently so that when the inevitable attack comes they will not be able to claim that all these pesky laws and rights are the reason they failed.

    Geekmouth

    ReplyDelete
  163. Anonymous10:27 PM

    Thanks, in this instance, to The New Republic: they did give the question on their in-house blog, The Plank. In case non-subscribers can't get the link, the question that the WaPo polled on read:
    "It's been reported that the National Security Agency has been collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans. It then analyzes calling patterns in an effort to identify possible terrorism suspects, without listening to or recording the conversations. Would you consider this an acceptable or unacceptable way for the federal government to investigate terrorism? Do you feel that way strongly or somewhat?"

    I don't like this, but I would answer "acceptable" and "somewhat" (honestly, "rather") to this question. Here's why. First, the question says NOTHING about warrantless, or non-FISA-approved, or illegally (which BTW, makes the poll useless). Second, I'm not at all sure that I trust Southwestern Bell-AT&T or American Express more than the NSA not to abuse my personal data--and they have it anyway. Third, after September 11, we should have had a national debate and then legislation on this topic--and this is how I would have come down in the debate that didn't happen (because The Decider pre-empted it).

    The salient point in all of this isn't whether its proper or necessary or popular or needed; its that this administration went off on its own into an Article 2 netherworld of its own making and on its own (beyond-constitutional, beyond-legal) authority. Post 9-11, I do think the numbers would be like this, or even higher, and legislation could have been passed, and safeguards could have been passed, and there could have been legislative and judicial oversight of needed data-mining activities. But no, not in Dick Cheney's and John Yoo's world of unconstrained Executive power.

    ReplyDelete
  164. Anonymous10:32 PM


    The link for the Rove indictment article by Jason Leopold is here.


    How stupid can you be? Karl was having a bit of fun with the liberal media and this idiot walked right into it and now has pie dripping all over his face.

    ReplyDelete
  165. Anonymous10:47 PM

    It's all about informing and conforming our opinions. As if we don't know how to draw our own conclusions. As the Post poll numbers were cited on MSNBC, their own e-mail poll showed opposite results with about 3 to 1 against the latest NSA revelations. Hmmmm? Could the Post poll numbers be flawed? Why yes, yes I believe they are.

    ReplyDelete
  166. Anonymous10:47 PM

    what you say is thoughtful. write shorter articles.

    ReplyDelete
  167. Anonymous10:54 PM

    I wonder how all the second ammendment proponents feel about this violation of the fourth ammendment? Democratic leaders should do a poll of NRA members and publish that.

    ReplyDelete
  168. ender: Just leave Bart be. He is insane and needs some help but unless you can prescribe meds I don't think you can help him.

    I do appreciate your kind remarks and concern. Put it down to my anti-authoritarianism or some other character defect, but I really do think it's counter-productive to proscribe discussion.

    I imagine that you and others are right about Bart and his motives for posting at this site. I, however, have my own reasons for dealing with him as troll, self-deceived mouthpiece for the corrupt Right, or whatever other descritpion one can find to describe him.

    He does sometimes ask questions that I think should be seriously entertained. This is simply because the clarification of those points through discussion helps enlighten dimensions of a debate that otherwise don't get explored on a forum that seems mostly liberal.

    I don't like the idea or practice of enforcing any type of closed-mindedness. This gets into the area of a PCness that I think stunts thought as well as reinforces the stereotypes that the other side might have about their opponents.

    Perhaps it is best that you not read my responses to Bart, as you already do. I can only hope that you will continue to read my other random remarks. For the latter, I again express my appreciation and graittude.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Anonymous11:05 PM

    I guess substandard is the new right wing buzzword for LYING & LYING & LYING some more.

    The behaviour of the former Bush supporters is truly idiotic. They cannot ever admit to the egregious sins of this cabal of crooks & liars.

    I'm so goddamn sick of them that I'd say it's time to deport the remaining 29% of the people that still support him. Think how much better off we'd be without the Malkin's, Goldbergs, Limbaughs, Savages, Coulters, and their admirers. Would any other country on earth want them? I sincerely doubt it.

    I know that my intolerance of the right wing freaks is bordering upon a hatred that is hypocritical, but I also have grandkids and the world these monsters would create is not one I would want to live in.

    Their is obviously something disconected in their heads that divorces them from reality and decent morality.

    Just imagine if they had their own country they could create their own 4th Reich.

    ReplyDelete
  170. For an excellent run-down of misleading news reports and misstatement of facts on the USA Today article about the NSA domestic spying database, see Media Matters:

    As with the exposure of the warrantless surveillance program in December 2005, media figures and Bush supporters have advanced numerous misleading or false claims in the wake of the news, as Media Matters for America documents below.

    ReplyDelete
  171. Anonymous11:29 PM

    Jack Balkin (www.balkin.blogspot.com) is, and has been, in a particularly fatalistic mood about all this. And he's probably right. Snooping technology has been around for a long time, and it has been greatly improved in recent years. It would be surprising if the government and other power-hungry nosey parkers did NOT use it.

    I would love to see some informed discussion about how we can live freely in a world where this kind of technology exists and will inevitably be used. Oh, I suppose that we could start by obeying our own laws.

    Balkin recently led a seminar focused on the type of information that ordinary people now can access, and those at the seminar kicked around some fascinating ideas about how that information might be used to better our lives. This may not be the time or the place to go all Pollyannish, and I am absolutely disgusted at what's being done in the name of national security. But it seems to me that now is the time for all good legal and moral philosophers to come to the aid of humanity. Because the truth is that regardless of who did it and why, we've all been digitized, and we're likely to stay that way.

    ReplyDelete
  172. Anonymous11:32 PM

    CHECK THE SOURCE OF THE COMPANY WHO POLLED FOR ABC AND THIS IS WHAT YOU FIND:

    I haven’t seen anyone mention this yet - but the reason this poll’s results are so off from what would seem possible might also have to do with who did the poll…

    ABC credits the poll to TNS Intersearch Corporation in Pennsylvania. A little digging reveals this:

    “TNS is one of the world’s leading market information groups. We provide market measurement, analysis and insight through our global network of operating companies in 70 countries. Working with national and multi-national organizations, we help our clients to develop effective business strategies and enhance relationships with their customers. In July 2003, the group merged with NFO WorldGroup, Inc. Further information on TNS can be found on www.tns-global.com.”

    TNS Intersearch is a unit of UK-based market research conglomerate Taylor Nelson Sofres.
    according to Hoovers “TNS Telecoms, a unit of UK-based market research heavyweight Taylor Nelson Sofres, provides market data and research reports to clients in the telecommunications industry. The company’s primary clients are telecommunications service providers”

    So the poll was done by a company whose primary client is telco’s.

    Not that they would have any interest in scewing a poll about how people feel about telcos right?

    http://www.hoovers.com/tns- telec...factsheet.xhtml

    ReplyDelete
  173. Anonymous11:35 PM

    jp

    great weblog reporting.

    how DID you track this stuff down?

    if you can, educate us in how to follow this stuff.

    thanks

    ReplyDelete
  174. Ian S said...

    Bart: "My guess would be that they wanted more CYA from whack job civil suits than NSA was willing to provide."

    So , again, if it was as routine as you claim, why would they have to worry about "CYA from whack job civil suits"?


    Like the groundless fishing expedition civil suit on behalf of all AT&T customers. Or any number of baseless ACLU suits involving the NSA surveillance program.

    ReplyDelete
  175. Anonymous11:40 PM

    Well I don't know where you found all those people, but the word around here is people are mad as hell.

    ReplyDelete
  176. Anonymous11:51 PM

    I doubt Bart is really a fan of the administration or a fascist. I think he's just got a contrarian streak. He'll be defending the indefensible long after the good ship Bush crashes and burns...they'll need a good defense attorney!

    ReplyDelete
  177. Zack said...

    So what are Americans losing by giving all their phone records directly to NSA without a warrant?

    It’s called “checks and balances”; it’s called the “separation of powers” – both of which are fundamental principles that this country was founded upon – the very basis of our democracy.


    :::chuckle:::

    1) Since when are checks and balances one of our individual rights?

    2) When did any of the branches give up a check or balance because the telecoms volunteered to give NSA telephone number and time data.

    Fred Kaplan explains the crucial issue here:

    But here's the crucial issue: The executive branch of the government cannot be trusted with sole access to such massive and intrusive information.


    Why not?

    This has nothing to do with who the president is; it has everything to do with the nature of power.

    LMAO!!!

    Did the estimable Mr. Kaplan have anything negative to say when the Clintons were rifling through the FBI files of their political enemies?

    The government has far more information than the unidentified telephone numbers about every American through the Census, IRS, FBI, military, ATF, Medicare, Medicaid, VA and several other departments. If they want to abuse their power, the government has ample opportunity.

    The problem with the indiscriminate data-mining that USA Today details is that it's not susceptible to warrants.

    The problem is indiscriminate, non targeted data mining is that its doesn't work. It has to be aimed at some distinguishable group to work.

    The problem with most media is that they are self important morons.

    Under FISA, the application for a surveillance order must include the identity or description of the target, the nature and location of the place being tapped, the type of information being sought, how long the monitoring will last, and so forth. There's no way, under any law, that an attorney general could ask any court to approve surveillance of everybody, everywhere, forever. That goes beyond what warrants of any sort can do.

    Thankfully, then, warrants are not required by the 4th Amendment for data mining public data.

    ReplyDelete
  178. BrendaAnn11/60 said...

    I doubt Bart is really a fan of the administration or a fascist. I think he's just got a contrarian streak. He'll be defending the indefensible long after the good ship Bush crashes and burns...they'll need a good defense attorney!

    :::heh:::

    You have the contrarian part right.

    However, I would gladly exchange an impeachment of Bush in exchange for restoring the secrecy of the NSA programs and imprisoning the traitors who disclosed them to the enemy.

    To me, this has nothing to do with Bush, it has to do with fighting a war.

    To almost everyone else here, it is simply another reason to take shots at Bush, the country be damned.

    ReplyDelete
  179. Anonymous12:03 AM

    could we just say it simply:

    this system,

    this opportunity,

    this necessity,



    WILL be abused!!!!

    now

    or

    later,

    it WILL be abused!!!

    even if it has not been abused up to now.



    that is the whole point of constitutional government!!!!



    as the comic books say,

    who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?

    what may be sincere and innocuous today,

    may be used in a deadly way against a political opponent

    OUT of power,

    tomorrow.


    in fact,

    i think it is likely that the illegal searching has been used against:

    american soldiers trying to write about iraq,

    against american journalists reporting unfavorably on iraq,

    against arab-americans for purely political reasons (soviet-style show trials,

    against americans who question the war,

    and against republican senate members to obtain info which might be used to blackmail the senators for things they have been recorded as saying.

    rest assured,

    for a presidency which operates by force and threat,

    as the bush presidency does,

    the opportunity to use force and threat by intercepting phone calls is

    too good an opportunity to miss.



    in short,

    given their track record,

    there is no reason in the world NOT to believe that the bush administration has abused this national security "opportunity".

    ReplyDelete
  180. Anonymous12:25 AM

    Cynic, I opened your link to the Arkin article and the entire article appears and I don't have a subscription, so perhaps others can also read it. It's a hugely informative article and before I paste here how it concludes, here are my own observations after reading that article.

    Modern technology has changed the entire dynamic of the world we live in now just as the Industrial Revolution changed the world in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries.

    One cannot nor should not want to stop progress but rather be aware that something good can also be used for destructive purposes.

    That's where we are now. I noticed it the day the Patriot Act was passed (I guess Sen. Feingold felt the same) even though I see now it had been going on a long time before that. The Patriot Act should have been the shot heard round the world but it wasn't and now it may all just be too late.

    I would say if Gen. Hayden is confirmed it means that for whatever myriad of reasons Americans either cannot or will not or do not want to take a stand at this juncture of history.

    The issues are clear enough now and are out in front of everyone in less than two days. Do they care?

    If not, it's a losing battle and almost foolish to waste any more time on any of this except for those who for whatever their reasons think it makes sense to keep fighting skirmishes in a War that has already ended.

    The USA article threw down the gauntlet. Do the American people want to pick it up?

    I could write volumes about the research efforts and the software programs and tools used to process the mountains of information the NSA and other agencies ingest. No doubt over the coming days and weeks, more will be written. For today though, I provide a pointer, based upon my research, of software, tools and intelligence databases that I have been able to identify in government documents relating to data mining, link analysis, and ingestion, digestion, and distribution of intelligence. My hope would be that other journalists and researchers will follow the leads.


    The following is a list of some 500 software tools, databases, data mining and processing efforts contracted for, under development or in use at the NSA and other intelligence agencies today:


    A2IPB
    ABA
    ABC Terrorism Prediction Model
    ABIS (Automated Biometric Identification System)
    AC2
    ACCO (Army Central Control Office) counter-intelligence investigations database
    ACOA
    ACTOR (Analyzing Complex Threats for Operations and Readiness)
    Adversary
    AeroText
    AFIS (Automated Fingerprint Identification Systems)
    AIES (Automated Information Extraction System)
    AIM
    AIR (Arabic Information Retrieval):
    Aira Data Mining Tool
    AIPSA (Automated Intel Processing for Situational Awareness)
    aiSee
    AKA
    ALADDIN (Automated Link Analysis for Data Mining of Distributed Information)
    ALE (Aires Life Extension)
    Alembic
    ALICE d'ISoft
    Alien Migration db
    Alterian Nucleus
    AME (analyst modeling environment)
    Analyst Notebook/Analyst Notebook Link Chart Reader
    Analyst Workbench
    Anchory
    AnswerTree
    Answerer
    AOCG (automated org-chart generation)
    APOLLO
    Aquarius
    ARENA
    ARM
    ART (Author-Recipient-Topic)
    ASAS (All Source Analysis System)/ASAS-L with MAST
    ASID (Automated Systems Integration Management Intelligence Database)
    ASIM (Automated Security Incident Measurement)
    Association
    AT Sigma Data Chopper
    ATHENA
    ATIX (Anti-Terrorism Information Exchange/Automated Trusted Information Exchange):
    AUDITT
    AutoMap
    Autonomy
    Automatic Identification System
    Automated Warning Prototype
    Auto-X tools
    AutoTrackXP (ATXP)
    AXIS (Analysis and eXploration of Information Sources)
    AVS/Express Visualization Edition
    Basketball
    BioWar
    Blackknight
    Blue Data Miner
    BNN (Broadcast News Navigator)
    Breve
    Broadbase EPM (Enter Perf Mgmt)
    Brocade
    BUILDINGCODE
    BusinessMiner
    C2PC
    CADRE (Continuous Analysis and Discovery from Relational Evidence)
    CamStudio
    Camps
    Capri
    Carillon
    CART
    CASIAT (Computer Assisted Security Investigative Analysis Tool)
    Categorizer/Tree Studio
    CATEIS (Counterintelligence Automated Tactical Exploitation & Information Software)
    CCDB (Consolidated Counterdrug Data Base)
    CCIP (Counterterrorism Collaboration Interoperability Project)
    CCM
    Centrifuge
    CETA
    Chassis
    CHATS (CI/HUMINT Automation Tool Set)
    Checkpoint
    CHIMS (CI/HUMINT Information Management System)
    CHINET (Chinese Name Extraction and Translation)
    Choicepoint
    CIA TD/TDX
    CiceroLite:
    CIDAR (Critical Infrastructure Detection, Analysis and Reporting)
    CIM (Critical Intent Model)
    CIM/SEAS Nested Argumentation
    CIPA (Counter Insurgency Pattern Assessment)
    CIRC
    CIS (Case Information System)
    CITF (Criminal Investigative Task Force) Web-enabled Database
    CJMTK
    Clear Case
    Clear Quest
    ClearForest
    ClearResearch
    Clementine
    CMS (Case Management System)
    Cobra Focus
    CODIS (Combined DNA Index System)
    CoGen
    COGNET
    Cognos (COTS Tool for Report Generation)
    Coliseum
    Conceptual Model of Counter-Terrorism Operations
    Constant Web
    Construct
    Content Analyst
    Context
    Convera
    Cornerstone
    Coverterm
    CPOF
    CPXP
    CrimeLink
    CrissCross
    CrossGraphs
    CTAC (Counter-Terrorism Analysis Capability)
    CTDB (Combating Terrorism Database)
    CT-AVRS/CT-AVARS (Combined Theater - Analyst Vetted Relational System/Combined Theater Analyst-Vetted, Relational, Structured Database)
    Cubist
    Cultweave/Cultweave II
    CyberLINXX
    CyberTrans
    CYC
    Darwin
    Data Clarity
    Data Detective
    Data Logic/RDS
    DataMiner 3D
    Data mining suite
    DataMite
    DataScope
    Data Serfer
    DataSurferPlus
    Data Surveyor
    DB2
    dbProbe
    DCIIS
    DECIDE
    DecisionWORKS
    DeltaMiner
    Diamond
    DIAZ
    DIMS (Detainee Information Management System)
    DNA (Dynamic Network Analysis)
    Dollar-Dinar db ($$)
    DOORS
    Dream Media
    DTES
    DyNet
    Eagle Eye
    EARS
    EASYBORDER
    EICK
    EKM
    Elite Network Modeling
    Emergejust (EJ)
    Enterprise Miner
    ENVIE (Extensible News Video Exploitation for Intelligence Analysis)
    Envision
    EP
    FaceIt
    FactBrowser
    Fair Isaac
    Fascia
    FAST DIAMOND US
    FAST ISSM
    FAST toolbox for OOTW
    FastTalk
    Fastus/TextPro
    FatCat
    FeedDemon
    Festival
    FINTEL
    FOMA
    FORECITE Monitor
    Foreign terrorism communication profile database
    Foundationstone
    Fraud Investigator
    Freedom
    Fulcrum Knowledge Server
    GATE (General Architecture for Text Engineering)
    GBAE (Glass Box Analytical Environment)
    GCS
    GDA
    GDM-FC
    Geo-Browser
    Genysis
    GeoTagger
    GIDI
    GIP (Generic Intelligence Processor)
    Glide
    Graphlet
    GRAPHVIZ/graphvis
    Grindstone
    Groove Workspace:
    Groundbreaker
    Group Discovery Algorithm
    Guardian
    Harvester
    HD Map
    HIDTA DIG (High Intensity Drug Trafficking Areas Digital Information Gateway)
    Highpoint
    HIS (HUMINT Imagery Server)
    Homebase/Homebase II
    HMSng (HUMINT Management System next generation)
    HPS (HUMINT Processing System)
    Hydrant
    i2 Visual Notebook:
    IAA (Intelligence Analyst Associate)
    IAFIS (Integrated Automated Fingerprint Identification System)
    iBase
    IBM Intelligence Miner for Data
    IBM MT:
    IC ROSE
    IdentiFinder
    IDP (Intelligence discovery portal)
    IDW (Investigative Data Warehouse)
    IE CounterDrug
    IES (IIR Evaluation System)
    IFS (Intelligence Fusion System)
    ILS
    iMapData
    IMPACT (Intelligent Mining Platform for the Analysis of Counter Terrorism)
    InCLUEsion
    Indri
    InFact
    InfoMASQ
    Informix Red Brick Formation
    InfoWorkspace
    InfoXtract
    INQUEST
    IN-SPIRE
    Insta-Know
    Intelligent Miner for Text
    Intelligenxia
    InterSCOPE 3-D Geospatial Visualization
    INTREPID (Intelligence and Terrorist Photograph Identification Database)
    IR Discover
    ISM (InfoSphere Management System)
    ITN (Identification Tasking and Network)
    IWS
    Jabber
    Jaguar
    JDS
    JMIE
    Juggernaut
    JWARN (Joint Warning System)
    KATE-DataMining
    KDD Explorer/SRA KDD Explorer
    Keycard
    KeyPlayer
    KnowledgeSEEKER
    KnowledgeSTUDIO
    LADS (Linkage Analysis Database System)
    LAS
    LAW (Link Analysis Workbench)
    LDS (Lotus Discovery Server)
    LEADMiner (NIPS)
    LEMUR
    LexiQuest Mine
    LingPipe
    LingSoft
    LinkView
    LSI (Latent Semantic Indexer)
    Mage
    Mailorder
    Mainway
    Malolo
    Malta
    MAPLE
    MARS
    MatView
    MAUI NITE
    MayaVis
    Media Manager
    METIS
    METS (Metadata Extraction and Tagging Service)
    MindManager
    MINDS (Multilingual Interactive Document Summarization)
    MINER
    Minerva
    MineSet
    MiTAP (MITRE Text and Audio Processing)
    MODEL 1
    Modus Operandi Database
    Mohomine
    MPES
    Name Variant
    NameStats
    NDA (name data archive)
    NDCore
    NDEx (National Data Exchange)
    NDPIX (National Drug Pointer Index)
    NER (named entity extraction)
    Nested Vision 3D
    NetDraw
    Netica
    NetMap Analytics
    NetMiner
    NetOwl/Net Owl
    NETVIZ
    NexMiner
    NLP++
    Noƶscape
    NORMALLAW
    NORA (Non-Obvious Relationship Analysis)
    NorthernLight
    NRM (NSA Reference Model)
    Nuggets
    Oasis
    ObjectFX
    OCULIS
    OMNIDEX
    OnTap
    OnTopic
    Open Visualization Data Explorer
    Optionspace Visualization
    ORA
    Orion
    ORIONMagic
    OSALAT (Open Source Automated Link Analysis Tool)
    Outline/Magic
    Overwatch
    PAC (Portal Automated Collection)
    Pajek
    Paladin
    Pantheon
    PASSGEAR
    PathFinder
    PEAC-WMDv5 Decision Support tool
    Pen-Link
    Pensa
    Pinpoint
    PINWALE
    Pipeline
    PIRANHA
    Plus
    Polaris
    PolyAnalyst
    PowerDrill
    Powerplant
    PPS
    Procon
    Project Foundry
    Proximity
    PrudSys Discoverer
    PTEK
    QACTIS (Question-Answering for Cross-Lingual Text, Image, and Speech)
    QANDA
    Query Tree NG/Querytree
    QUIET (QUery Improvement Elevation Technique)
    QKS Classifier
    Radiant Garnet
    Rampart
    Rational Rose
    Raven
    Razor
    REES
    Remedy
    Renoir/Renoir+
    REPAST
    Rigel
    RMS
    ROSID (Rapid Open Source Intelligence Deployment System)
    ROVER
    RPS
    S-PLUS
    SAFE
    SaffronNet
    Saffron Web
    SAIL Labs Media Mining (MM) and Communications Mining (CM) Tool
    SameTime
    Sandbox
    Sander
    SANDKEY.
    SAS/SAS Enterprise Miner
    SAVANT (Systematic Architecture for Virtual Analytic Net-centric Threat Information):
    Scenario
    SeaLink/SeaWatch
    SEAS (Structured Evidence Argumentation System)
    See 5/C5.0
    Semantic Forests
    Semantic Navigator
    Semantic Web
    SEMESTER
    Semio Taxonomy
    SERIF (Statistical Entity & Relation Information Finding)
    SIAAD (Secure Information Access Analysis & Dissemination)
    SIAM (Situational Influence Assessment Module)
    Siena
    SIFT
    SIGINT on Demand
    SKYWRITER
    Slate
    SmartDiscovery
    SmartDiscovery Analysis Server
    SmartDiscovery Awareness Server
    SNAKE (Social Network Analysis for Knowledge Exploitation)
    SOCIDS
    SoNIA
    Soundex
    Sparkler
    sphinxVision
    SPIRE/Themeview
    Springtide
    Spotfire Pro
    SPSS/Clementine
    SpyGLAS
    SS7
    SSNAStandpoint
    Starlight
    StarTree
    STK (Surge Toolkit)
    Strategic Player
    STRONG ANGEL
    Subdue
    SUMMAC (Summarization Analysis Conference)
    Suspect Finder
    Swarm
    Sybase
    Syllogic Data Mining
    Symphony
    SyNERA
    Synergist
    System Dynamic Modeling
    SYSTRAN
    TACS
    TAG Manager (Thematic Argument Group Manager)
    TAIC (Text Analysis International Corporation)
    TAPAS (Threat Anticipation Program Agent-Based Simulation of Terrorist Motivations, Objectives and Strategies)
    TEES (Trainable Evidence Extraction System)
    Tel-Scope
    TER (The Easy Reasoner)
    TERQAS (Time and Event Recognition for Question Answering Systems)
    Teradata
    TextWise
    Themelink
    ThingFinder
    THREADS (Threat HUMINT Reporting, Evaluation, Analysis, and Display System)
    Threat Tracker
    TILADS (Terrorist Identification Linkage Analysis Database)
    Timewall
    TIMEX
    Tina Tool
    Tinman
    TIRT
    TKT (Tacit Knowledge Toolkit)
    TMODS (Terrorist Modus Operandi Detection System)
    TOLLS
    Tom Sawyer
    TouchGraph
    Trailblazer
    TravelNet
    TRIDENT
    TRIST (“The Rapid Information Scanning Tool”)
    Trusted Wisdom
    TruTalk
    TTKB
    Ucinet
    UWIL
    Vantage Point
    Verity Indexer
    Verity K2E (Verity K2 Enterprise)
    Verity Locales
    Verity Profiler
    Verona
    VIA Repository
    Viceroy
    Virtual Situation Book
    Viscovery SOMine
    Visual Insights ADVIZOR
    Visual Links
    VisualMine
    ViTAP
    VizServer
    VKB (Virtual Knowledge Base) FINTEL ISM
    Voltaire
    WAEWarlord
    Watchtower
    Watson Pro
    Webster
    Webtas (Web-based Time Line Analysis System)
    WilmaScope
    Windgrinder/WnGrinder
    Wired
    Wrangler
    XMB (XML Metadata Browser)
    XpertRule Miner
    Yellowstone

    By William M. Arkin | May 12, 2006; 10:47 AM ET | Category: Domestic Role of the Military , Intelligence

    Previous: Still Preparing For the Wrong Disaster

    ---|

    Finally, there are two applicable exceptions to the general rule of the Communications Act of '34 (amended in '96), which prohibits carriers from releasing CPNI info: when the law requires it or when the data at issue is in aggregate form. (posted by another)

    ReplyDelete
  181. Anonymous12:42 AM

    Read an analysis of the Washington Post poll based upon the “terror management theory” and how it may impact the strategy for the upcoming midterm elections here:

    www.thoughttheater.com

    ReplyDelete
  182. Anonymous1:14 AM

    In response to the question posed earlier about what rights have been violated by this NSA activity, how about "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures?"

    The Fourth Amendment. Make a note of it.

    And in case you have the Hayden edition, the rest of it reads:"and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

    ReplyDelete
  183. Anonymous1:43 AM

    At 29% Bush's popularity will only drop by losing his hard-core base. All the hard-core conservatives I know believe one thing in common: "keep the government out of my business". Anyone who thinks this helps Bush with his base is crazy.

    ReplyDelete
  184. Anonymous2:02 AM

    Bob King: great post.

    Cynic: If I had to read only one commenter, it would be you and a good percentage of what I have learned while reading this blog has been through links of yours and your discussions of the subjects those links concern.

    I do scroll by your posts to Bart, as I now scroll past his although I respect, of course, that you have your own reasons for responding and should continue to do what you please.

    Just thought I would chime in, however, to post my own reaction :)

    There have been three "large" polls thus far on the USA revelations each containing over a hundred thousand responses.

    Those are CNN, AOL, and MSNBC.

    The percentage against this program in each is 75%. A very clear majority of Americans.

    ReplyDelete
  185. "Americans are too simplistic and stupid to care about the rule of law or privacy" It's almost scary how true this seems.

    ReplyDelete
  186. Anonymous2:10 AM

    I heard an interesting explanation of this poll today. Perhaps the people were so scared when answering that NSA was listening they had to say "YES". LOL

    I was really suprised at the turn around time in this poll. The news story came out yesterday. WaPo had this poll posted on their site by 7:00 am today. It was a random group of 502 that were surveyed. That is an extremely low number for a survey. As matter of fact they even admit this in their polling report:

    The practical difficulties of doing a survey in a single evening represent other potential sources of error in this or any other overnight poll

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postpoll_nsa_051206.htm

    When you consider most people were working then came home and maybe saw a 5 minute blurb on the evening news about it (and that is a big maybe), these people who responded were NOT informed on the actual implications of what came out yesterday. Let a respectable polling company run a legitimate poll, instead of WaPo/ABC trying a good spin poll, and I am sure the results will be different.

    Jamie
    http://www.intoxination.net

    ReplyDelete
  187. Anonymous2:15 AM

    It's the royal court mentality of Beltway, national media and "chattering classes." The mentality that dismisses everything said by anyone outside their clique. All 300,000,000 of us.

    Thanks. I "get it" and could not agree more.

    ReplyDelete
  188. Anonymous2:32 AM

    Re: Tice

    "He said he “will not confirm or deny” if his allegations involve the illegal use of space systems and satellites."

    The man hasn't even testified yet and nobody knows what he is going to say. It's amazing that the apologists on this site have already dismissed whatever he will say not even knowing what it will be.

    This "kill the messenger before he even delivers the mail" tactic is becoming very boring, to me at least.

    Once Rosenkrantz and Gilderstern are dead it's full speed ahead.

    I was one who completely believed that the "Star Wars" strategic defense program of the Cold War era had to do with putting a protective shield over this country as a deterrent.

    Now I see how dumb that was of me. It never had anything to do with that. It was just part of a plan to march toward a Surveillance State including putting cameras in the sky.

    NSA. NASA. What's the difference really?

    Neither really works in the service of the people in this country. They work in service of Versaille.

    (Love that word--thanks, Paul. It says it all in just one word.)

    PS. What happened to all the "astronauts"? Astronauts: ha.

    ReplyDelete
  189. A Washington Note commenter, Lara (8:14pm), gives a statistician's explanation of the WaPo NSA scandal poll:

    That being said, I am certain that the ABC [WaPo] poll was taken TOO early to register a "good" reading on how the public feels about the issue. Most people haven't even heard about it....but my guess is that by Monday (just when Bush is trying to distract the country with his immigration speech), more people will have had a chance to understand the issues. Should someone do a poll that covers Sun. - Mon. and then is reported out on Tuesday, the percent favorable would most likely change.

    ReplyDelete
  190. Anonymous3:24 AM

    ender said...

    "I didn't realize until today that this Richard Morin guy was behind that poll. Not only am I no longer concerned that the poll might be valid, I am now strongly suspicious that he may have called 502 people from a list of known BushCo supporters."

    That is a pretty low poll number if it is from a list of Bush supporters. :-)

    ReplyDelete
  191. Anonymous4:24 AM

    Bart... You have the contrarian part right.

    However, I would gladly exchange an impeachment of Bush in exchange for restoring the secrecy of the NSA programs and imprisoning the traitors who disclosed them to the enemy.

    To me, this has nothing to do with Bush, it has to do with fighting a war.

    To almost everyone else here, it is simply another reason to take shots at Bush, the country be damned.


    Bart,

    You are no "contrarian". If you remain the only supporter of a failed foreign policy you are just an idiot, and a dangerous idiot, at that. You look plenty capable of re-upping. At least then you could put your "money" where your mouth is. Right now you aren't putting anything on the line. Just advocating other people throw their good money after your bad ideas.



    contrarian: a person who takes a contrary position or attitude; specifically : an investor who buys shares of stock when most others are selling and sells when others are buying

    ReplyDelete
  192. Anonymous4:27 AM

    Hours after the USA story breaks, the Washington Post comes up with a hastily conducted poll to capture the limelight and set people's initial perceptions of what others are thinking.

    Disenchanted Dave had this post on his blog:

    Today I was thinking about the new revelations regarding NSA spying. I've read a few bits of analysis; of the people that have commented so far, everyone seems to agree that Orin Kerr is probably the most qualified to discuss the issue; so far serious commentators with law degrees seem to be keeping their conclusions tentative. (Unserious commentators on the right are not). To the extent that there's any consensus on the previously disclosed wiretapping issue among law professors, it seems to be that it's probably permissible under the 4th amendment (i.e. it's not an unreasonable search or seizure) but that it almost certainly violates a few important laws (especially the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act).

    Yes, Dave is right. Everyone does "seem to agree that Orin Kerr is probably the most qualified to discuss the issue".

    And it happens every time there is another revelation about some spying program. Orin Kerr, (like WAPO) manages to always "steal some time" away from grading those papers of his to post the next morning the "definitive" analysis of each new issue.

    It's always the same. Change a few specifics to deal with each new issue and then trot out the same conclusion: It's not a violation of the Fourth Amendment. It might be someone had a hair out of place on the way to the debate (blah blah blah) but nothing that cannot be combed into place by rewriting a few laws and let's move on.

    And Marty Lederman, Jack Balkin, Disenchanted Dave and anyone else reading Orin's analysis, always the first out of the gate, concludes he is right because he's an "expert", sighs, and then, yes, moves on.

    Why does everyone keep falling for this same obvious three card monte?

    How can people be so naive?

    I am here to say Orin Kerr is WRONG WRONG WRONG as usual, and any twelve year old who can comprehend a simple concept can see that for himself:

    Amendment IV

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


    The stuff in bold is the important part, as the rest just speaks to the procedures for getting warrants when there is "probable cause"---and probable cause does not include these trumped up justifications for instituting a police state. That's bart's domain.

    You not only need a warrant but your explanation for why it is necessary to violate this most important right of every American must be reasonable in the first place.

    Am I the only person in America who doesn't need Orin Kerr to "let me know" what the Fourth Amendment says so clearly?

    Glenn, can you not see that? I suspect you can because you are brilliant, you haven't given up yet as apparently so many others have, and you don't have an "agenda" as Orin Kerr does.

    So say so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Why is everyone so afraid of Orin Kerr? Why do they kiss the ring on this blatant careerist, dictatorship apologist's hand?

    You all think Orin Kerr knows more about the Fourth Amendment than your own lying eyes? Even Marty Lederman thinks that?

    Who gave this careerist the right to interpret the Fourth Amendment for all of America?

    Orin Kerr, you do not scare me.

    Of course these programs are a violation of the Fourth Amendment. Even an idiot can see that.

    I know how to read, Orin Kerr, and you are full of it.

    Please do not include this as one of those times where "you can fool all of the people some of the time."

    Maybe you fool everyone else in America but you do not fool me.

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated.

    End of story.

    ReplyDelete
  193. to know everything you need to know about this poll, skip to the last sentence in the article:

    "The practical difficulties of doing a survey in a single night represents another potential source of error."

    ReplyDelete
  194. Anonymous7:47 AM

    Anyone with more business acumen (or frankly, interest and talent) than myself able to confirm if there has been any effect on this scandal towards the stock of the involved telcos?

    I'm genuinely curious, and haven't found any info in my own searches, as it has not ever really been my field.

    The reason I find it of such interest, however, is that regardless of rigged or faulty polling, if AT&T stock tanked Friday, and/or Qwests went up, it could be a great indicator of the general public's disposition towards the call tracking. Heck, there may even be other indicators towards a company's health that I am not aware of that could show the same sorts of info.

    If WaPo wants to put out crap polls (and I'm sure Fox will be right behind, or just cut and paste Rasmussen), then it would be nice to have a stock ticker to toss back as a rebuttal, and it might be a more immediate indicator than polls that attempt to be more unbiased.

    ReplyDelete
  195. Anonymous10:08 AM

    Progressives? Does it occur to anyone here that naming yourselves after a disproportionate tax system is not inspiring? Aside from that the sight of "progressives" trying to justify months of calls for censure and impeachment is just sad.

    You people owe an apology not only to Bush, but certainly to Bart, who in the end was the only one that was even close to right. Beyond that he was the only one with a concern for the country, rather than little minds, and smaller lives, interested in looking larger than you are.

    For months you have indulged yourselves in participation of the "digital lynch mob" trashing anyone and anything within reach, while exposing the people trying to protect you, no matter how wrong-headed your opposition. Are you proud of yourselves? Do you think leaking and exposing a program less intrusive than a phone marketer's was worth threatening the leadership of YOUR country?

    So far you've been wrong about Plame, the NSA, Iran, Iraq, the economy, immigration, and a host of other things, but being wrong just seems to spur greater heights of absurdness. Yes, you owe Bush and Bart apologies, but I don't expect to see them. It would require maturity beyond your experience, and objectivity that would seperate you from the mob.

    None of you have the guts for it.

    ReplyDelete
  196. Here are some interesting provisions of the federal criminal code which appear to apply to the telecom provision of call records to the government:

    TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 121

    § 2702. Voluntary disclosure of customer communications or records

    Release date: 2005-08-03

    (c) Exceptions for Disclosure of Customer Records.— A provider described in subsection (a) may divulge a record or other information pertaining to a subscriber to or customer of such service (not including the contents of communications covered by subsection (a)(1) or (a)(2))—

    (1) as otherwise authorized in section 2703;

    (2) with the lawful consent of the customer or subscriber;

    (3) as may be necessarily incident to the rendition of the service or to the protection of the rights or property of the provider of that service;

    (4) to a governmental entity, if the provider reasonably believes that an emergency involving immediate danger of death or serious physical injury to any person justifies disclosure of the information;

    (5) to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, in connection with a report submitted thereto under section 227 of the Victims of Child Abuse Act of 1990 (42 U.S.C. 13032); or

    (6) to any person other than a governmental entity.

    CHAPTER 121—STORED WIRE AND ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS AND TRANSACTIONAL RECORDS ACCESS

    § 2709. Counterintelligence access to telephone toll and transactional records

    Release date: 2005-08-03

    (a) Duty to Provide.— A wire or electronic communication service provider shall comply with a request for subscriber information and toll billing records information, or electronic communication transactional records in its custody or possession made by the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation under subsection (b) of this section.

    (b) Required Certification.— The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, or his designee in a position not lower than Deputy Assistant Director at Bureau headquarters or a Special Agent in Charge in a Bureau field office designated by the Director, may—
    (1) request the name, address, length of service, and local and long distance toll billing records of a person or entity if the Director (or his designee) certifies in writing to the wire or electronic communication service provider to which the request is made that the name, address, length of service, and toll billing records sought are relevant to an authorized investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such an investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely on the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States; and

    (2) request the name, address, and length of service of a person or entity if the Director (or his designee) certifies in writing to the wire or electronic communication service provider to which the request is made that the information sought is relevant to an authorized investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such an investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

    (c) Prohibition of Certain Disclosure.— No wire or electronic communication service provider, or officer, employee, or agent thereof, shall disclose to any person that the Federal Bureau of Investigation has sought or obtained access to information or records under this section.

    (d) Dissemination by Bureau.— The Federal Bureau of Investigation may disseminate information and records obtained under this section only as provided in guidelines approved by the Attorney General for foreign intelligence collection and foreign counterintelligence investigations conducted by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and, with respect to dissemination to an agency of the United States, only if such information is clearly relevant to the authorized responsibilities of such agency.

    (e) Requirement That Certain Congressional Bodies Be Informed.— On a semiannual basis the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation shall fully inform the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence of the House of Representatives and the Select Committee on Intelligence of the Senate, and the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives and the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate, concerning all requests made under subsection (b) of this section.


    It appears that there is no general expectation of privacy concerning telephone number records. Pursuant to Section 2702(c)(6), the telecoms are allowed to voluntarily release these records to any private citizen. Voluntary telecom release to the government is generally limited to emergencies, which this program does not appear to be.

    However, later in Section 2709, Congress ordered the telecoms to release these records to the FBI when they are "relevant to an authorized investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities." Furthermore, the FBI may disseminate these records to other government agencies like the NSA and disclosure of these requests by the releasing telecom to the public or the press is illegal.

    Interesting stuff.

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  197. Anonymous10:09 AM

    Progressives? Does it occur to anyone here that naming yourselves after a disproportionate tax system is not inspiring? Aside from that the sight of "progressives" trying to justify months of calls for censure and impeachment is just sad.

    You people owe an apology not only to Bush, but certainly to Bart, who in the end was the only one that was even close to right. Beyond that he was the only one with a concern for the country, rather than little minds, and smaller lives, interested in looking larger than you are.

    For months you have indulged yourselves in participation of the "digital lynch mob" trashing anyone and anything within reach, while exposing the people trying to protect you, no matter how wrong-headed your opposition. Are you proud of yourselves? Do you think leaking and exposing a program less intrusive than a phone marketer's was worth threatening the leadership of YOUR country?

    So far you've been wrong about Plame, the NSA, Iran, Iraq, the economy, immigration, and a host of other things, but being wrong just seems to spur greater heights of absurdness. Yes, you owe Bush and Bart apologies, but I don't expect to see them. It would require maturity beyond your experience, and objectivity that would seperate you from the mob.

    None of you have the guts for it.

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  198. Anonymous10:24 AM

    Earth to Shooter242...Earth to Shooter242........come in please.....what planet are you on.......

    God, just when you think the brainwashed lunacy of the right can't get any worse, along comes this nutcake.

    Can't help but wonder how these entities from parallel realities come from...

    Another right wing pussy. All bark, no bite, thoroughly brainwashed by Faux News-Bush is God, the Republican party is the party of God, there are WMD in Iraq....On and on, the drivel never stops from this horde.

    Perhaps there is an element of subtle sarcasm in his posting or it's a parody. If so I apologize for condemning idiocy and instead compliment you on your excellent parody of right wing stupidity.

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