Orin Kerr has a post which preliminary assesses some of the legal issues involved with the domestic data gathering program, concluding (in his standard, very careful law-professor-ese) that "my very preliminary sense is that there are no Fourth Amendment issues here but a number of statutory problems under statutes such as FISA and the pen register statute." I think -- preliminarily -- that the statutory problems may be more severe than he seems to suggest. But I want to emphasize that some of these issues are complex and this discussion is intended to lay out what appear to be the issues involved, including the likely grounds for finding that what the administration did was illegal. But none of this is set in stone or definitive, yet.
A "pen register" device is a mechanism for collecting various data with regard to how a telephone is used -- it enables the user to obtain the numbers to which the person made calls and from which they received them, along with the duration of the call. The purpose of that device is to enable the Government to gather exactly the information which the Government gathered here from the telecommunications companies -- comprehensive records of who you called and who called you, and for how long you spoke. The NSA now has all of that information about, presumably, every American, because the telecommunication companies gave it to them.
The ability of the Government to use pen registers is governed by various liberalizing changes made to Section 402 of FISA, by Section 214 of the 2oo1 Patriot Act. There is no dispute that the Government is prohibited from using pen registers without FISA court approval -- both under the old FISA and the more liberalized FISA as amended by the Patriot Act. As Mary DeRosa, senior fellow in the Technology and Public Policy Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, explained as part of a 2001 debate over various provisions of the Patriot Act:
Section 214 [of the 2001 Patriot Act] makes similar changes to procedures for obtaining pen register or trap and trace orders under FISA. "Pen registers" and "trap and trace" devices record information about the recipient and source, respectively, of a communication. They do not intercept the contents of communications.
Previously, FISA section 402 required the government to certify to the FISC that there was reason to believe a line monitored by one of these devices would be used by an individual or a foreign power engaged in international terrorism or spying that violates U.S. criminal laws.
Everyone seems to agree that even with the changes effectuated to FISA by the Patriot Act, the Government is still required to obtain approval from the FISA court in order to use pen registers; the only change mades by the Patriot Act was to lower the showing the Government was required to make to the FISA court in order to obtain permission to use a pen register. This appears to be the view even of executive power fanatic, ex-prosecutor Andrew McCarthy:
Prior FISA law required government to certify that the monitored communications would likely be those either of an international terrorist or spy involved in a
violation of U.S. criminal law, or of an agent of a foreign power involved in terrorism or espionage.
Consequently, Section 214’s modification of prior law is both modest and eminently reasonable. Agents are still required to obtain a court order before installing a pen register. In addition, they are still required to make a solemn representation to the court; now, however, that is limited to certifying that the information sought would be relevant to an investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities.
It is true that, strictly speaking, at least based on what we know, the Government has not used pen registers here. They didn't need to. Instead of collecting this information telephone-by-telephone, they just skipped the whole pen register annoyance and had the telecommunications companies give them all of that information for every phone. Still, it is hard to imagine (at least for people acting in good faith) how it could be illegal for the Government to use a pen register device without a court order for a single phone (it appears clear that that is illegal), but it is perfectly legal for the Government to obtain pen register information for everyone's phone in the country without bothering to obtain a court order of any kind.
Independently, the type of information obtained here by the Government seems clearly to fall within FISA's definition of "electronic surveillance." Section 1801(f)(1) of FISA defines "electronic surveillance" to include "the acquisition by an electronic, mechanical, or other surveillance device of the contents of any wire or radio communication sent by or intended to be received by a particular, known United States person who is in the United States. . . " In turn, Section 1801(n) defines the term "contents" as follows:
"Contents," when used with respect to a communication, includes any information concerning the identity of the parties to such communication or the existence, substance, purport, or meaning of that communication
There is, at the very least, a strong argument to make that the type of information obtained by the administration here falls squarely within the scope of FISA and thus requires warrants before it can be obtained. This would violate FISA for the same reason the NSA warrantless eavesdropping program does -- namely, it constitutes electronic surveillance on Americans and therefore is criminal unless undertaken with judicial approval.
Finally, there are several other seemingly significant legal issues governing this program, all of which are possible grounds for concluding that the President -- yet again -- violated the law when ordering surveillance on Americans, including various provisions of FISA governing the production of business documents by these companies to the Government.
Ultimately, however, the always-overarching issue is that it doesn't really much matter how these fascinating and academic statutory debates are resolved because the administration has claimed repeatedly that it has the right to violate statutes like this if its doing so is in pursuit of the national defense. As Professor Kerr put it, with great understatement:
Of course, all of the statutory questions are subject to the possible argument that Article II trumps those statutes. As I have mentioned before, I don't see the support for the strong Article II argument in existing caselaw, but there is a good chance that the Administration's legal argument in support of the new law will rely on it.
The Leader ordered this collection of sweeping data on the communications activities of Americans because The Threat of Terrorism required it. Therefore, even if multiple statutes make doing that a criminal offense, The President has the power to do it anyway. That, of course, is the Administration's view of the world. And that is the epic constitutional crisis we have in our country.
Finally, I would be remiss if I failed to point out this passage written by Andrew McCarthy from the above-linked debate on The Patriot Act and FISA, something McCarthy wrote before he knew the President had ordered eavesdropping on Americans without court approval:
Why such extensive access with virtually no court supervision? Because the items at issue here are primarily activity records voluntarily left in the hands of third parties. As the Supreme Court has long held, such items simply do not involve legitimate expectations of privacy. See, e.g., Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735, 744 (1979).
This renders them categorically different from the private information at issue in the context of search warrants or eavesdropping, in which the court is properly imposed as a bulwark, requiring a demonstration of cause before government may pierce established constitutional safeguards.
McCarthy wrote this before he knew that his Leader had ordered the NSA to eavesdrop on Americans without having courts "imposed as a bulwark." Before he knew the President had ordered this, McCarthy said he believed that it is necessary that the government not be permitted to eavesdrop on Americans without judicial approval because such oversight was necessary to protect "established constitutional safeguards." But once he found out that the President ordered eavesdropping without that judicial "bulwark," he changed his mind completely. What he previously said was necessary and proper -- judicial oversight for eavesdropping -- suddenly became totally superfluous and unnecessary, as he became one of the most vocal defenders of the administration's warrantless eavesdropping programs.
People who fundamentally change their views on issues this significant all in order to defend a Leader's conduct can be called many things. None of them is flattering.
UPDATE: Both Anonymous Liberal and Marty Lederman suggest that the telecommunications companies perhaps violated Section 222 of the Communications Act, which "requires telecommunications carriers to protect the confidentiality of customer proprietary information ("CPNI"), such as the telephone numbers called by customers and the length oftime of the calls. . . ." By e-mail, Georgia10 of Daily Kos argues that the companies seem clearly to have violated 18 U.S.C. section 2702, which also bans the disclosure of such information without a court order.
UPDATE II: I will be on Christopher Lydon's radio show Open Source tonight at 7:15 pm EST to discuss this newly disclosed surveillance program. Tomorrow morning, at 7:18 a.m. EST, I will be on The Bill Press Show to do the same. And tomorrow night at 6:30 p.m. EST, I will be on Sirius' The Young Turks. All three of those sites have a live audio stream.
Finally, I have a piece today on Alternet regarding the growing influence of the blogosphere, and they have included an excerpt from my book from the chapter which discusses the Bush administration's use of fear.
UPDATE III: I am happy to report that Working Assets, the telecommunications company whose publishing arm is the publisher of my book, was the only telecom company to sign onto the ACLU's lawsuit seeking an injunction against the Bush administration's warrantless eavesdropping program.
UPDATE IV: A fluid and well-informed discussion of the legal issues governing this data-collection program is provided here by Kate Martin, the Director of the Center for Strategic Studies, at the ACS Blog.
I was so happy about finding the statute that prohibited unauthorized pen registers in the last thread, and now Glenn says that pen registers weren't used in the first place.
ReplyDeleteThanks a lot, Mr. Killjoy. =P
Well, chimpy is the "Decider" after all, so if he decides that laws and the constitution do not apply to him, guess that is his right.
ReplyDeleteAfter all, we let him proclaim himself our "decider" by stealing 2 "accountability moments."
Who would have imagined that the "political capital" he proclaimed he was going to spend was actually just the knowledge that no one with a position of authority would actually apply any oversight no matter what he did.
Personally, at this point, I wish he would just nuke russia and china and we could get this whole thing behind us.
People who fundamentally change their views on issues this significant all in order to defend a Leader's conduct can be called many things. None of them is flattering.
ReplyDeleteWhich is why I hope you will all join me in assuring them that President Hillary Clinton will never abuse this authority, and thank y'all for giving it to her.
.
The Water Carrier Speaks!
ReplyDeleteSen. Feinstein on TV saying we are in the middle of a consitutional confrontation and she thinks that is going to be an "impediment" to the confirmation of Gen. Hayden which would be regrettable.
Thanks, Di.
DEA and local narcs have long been routinely getting call records from telcos by simple request. It's the first step they take when they have a lead but not enough for a warrant. The first instance I can recall seeing in discovery was 1982, when the telco only maintained records for long distance. In that case, frequent calls from a New York residence to payphones in Tuscon were, combined with a tip, deemed sufficient for probable cause for a physical search of the NYC premises.
ReplyDeleteIANAL, as they say, but I can tell you this is illegal under *some* statute.
ReplyDeleteWhy? Because Bush is bragging about it. The whole *point* of Bush's national security/terrorism policy is to brag about how strong he is and how his Administration will break any law it wants in order to "pertect tha 'merkin peeple" - and if he's not breaking a law, he's not doing his job.
Also, after five-plus years, how much of the smart money is on Bush *obeying* a law in any given policy dispute?
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteThis article doesn't warrant (pun intended) a response beyond this question: Can the president of the United States be put under house arrest?
With today's revelation in USA TODAY and more reports of war plans for invading Iran, that's the only question that need answering and action!
Chill out, folks. It all makes sense when you realize that when the Framers were talking about "checks and balances," they meant "unlimited and unfettered power aggregated in the person of the President." Words just had different meanings back then. It's like how "chips" in England isn't "potato chips" at all, but really "french fries."
ReplyDeleteI've a question that I haven't seen addressed yet. As I understand it -- and I may be incorrect in this -- the administration simply asked for this information from the telecoms, and, except for Qwest, they handed it over. Voluntarily.
ReplyDeleteDoes it change the calculus if the government asked for and received information from the company that had proprietary ownership of it, rather than getting it without their approval?
Glenn I thought this was helpful....
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, the Supreme Court has held that there is no constitutionally-protected privacy interest in the numbers one dials to initiate a telephone call. Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735, 742 (1979). Accordingly, the pen register and trap and trace provisions in 18 USC 3121 et seq. establish minimum standards for court-approved law enforcement access to the "electronic or other impulses" that identify "the numbers dialed" for outgoing calls and "the originating number" for incoming calls. 18 USC 3127(3)-(4). To obtain such an order, the government need merely certify that "the information likely to be obtained is relevant to an ongoing criminal investigation." 18 USC 3122-23. (There is no constitutional or statutory threshold for opening a criminal investigation.)
Does it change the calculus if the government asked for and received information from the company that had proprietary ownership of it, rather than getting it without their approval?
ReplyDeleteIt's a good question. I don't know the answer. It may depend on how coercive the "request" was - at least according to Qwest, it involved threats to eliminate them from consideration for future lucrative classified contracts. Requests that are accompanied by threats or coercion are not, under the law, viewed as mere requests.
This is why I don't think that would ultimately be a defense. Think about your question in the context of the NSA eavesdropping program - the same argument applies. They simply asked the phone companies to provide them access to the communincations and the companies voluntarily complied, but nobody would think that exonerates the administration because they then engaged in the affirmative act of listening in without warrants.
Same here - the phone companies handed the information over, but the Government then actively used it to record it, maintain it, use it for whatever they used it for. They didn't just receive this information. They used it. Assuming it's illegal to obtain this information without a court order under FISA, that would, I think, be enough to establish liability.
Damn, this is big - DJIA is down more than 130 points as of 2:20 pm
ReplyDeleteGlenn I thought this was helpful....
ReplyDeleteI didn't suggest (yet) that there were Fourth Amendment problems with what they did. Just because something isn't unconstitutional doesn't mean it's legal. Lots of things violate the law that don't conflict with constitutional protections.
Good points. Thanks for clarifying that point for me.
ReplyDeleteWhen the framers said "check and balanced," they meant"
ReplyDelete*checks to politicians from lobbiests and payments to the military-industrial complex.
*balance as in FAUX news, when a truthful bit of negative information about the chimperor comes out, "balance" it with some lies.
I'm inclined to beleive that if there indeed confining their attention to "external" data, that they are probably within the law, but if the pattern we're seeing continues to play out the way it has been, in another 2-3 weeks there will be another story revealing another facet of this program coming perhaps from Christian Science Monitor or some-such source which will no doubt confirm that what we were told previously was incomplete and yes, they are actually correlating the phone records of who dialed whom with the voice data that they've been interceping by some as yet unrevealed method.
ReplyDeleteThis is all so depressing that the only good thing I can think of is that the government would never, ever hand over Bill Gate's private business communications and patented programs to some unscrupulous competitor who is a really a subsidiary of the government like the phone companies.
ReplyDeleteAnd others.
I'd like to approach this program from another direction.
ReplyDeleteA program is classified for a reason. Generally, that reason is that disclosure of program activity would harm the security of the country.
In the case of foreign intelligence, it is clear that sources and methods, and therefore the information, needs to be protected.
In the case of this program, I see absolutely no rationale for classification. The target is the American public, the sources and methods are all easily discerned, and knowing that our phones are monitored does not harm the national security one bit.
Someone abused their classification authority.
Jon, Kerr links to this section of the Stored Communications Act § 2702. Voluntary disclosure of customer communications or records. I’ve read his link, and considerd Kerr’s parsing of matters:
ReplyDeleteIt's not clear to me that the SCA applies: the SCA was designed to deal with one-time disclosure of stored communications and records, not real-time collection and repeated disclosure. At the same time, the statute doesn't have an explicit exception for real time collection, so it's at least plausible that it does apply. If it applies, disclosure is permitted only if an exception to the statute covers this. I don't think that any of the exceptions apply, though: the emergency exception of 18 U.S.C. 2702(c)(4) seens to be the closest, but this doesn't sound like there was an "immediate danger" here. This was an ongoing program, not a program responding to a sudden emergency.
It’s more clear to me than to Kerr that the SCA applies, but I wouldn’t be willing to insist on it yet, especially since I have not tracked down all the defintions of terms in the statute. This really is all pretty complicated.
So is this iran contra redux...only this time with Total Information Awareness (TOA)?? It seems to be what TOA was all about, massive data mining on an unprecedented scale.
ReplyDeleteInteresting contractual question: If the telecos were paid for the information, which i am sure they were, either with actual secret gov.t contracts or tax/regulation incentives (or perhaps net neutrality quid pro quo?) does this add anything to the equation? For instance, most contracts that have as its purpose an illegal activity are void for public policy reasons...is this in the same league? Or is there a secret presidential order that the telecos rely on to claim everything they did was legal or "authorized"? Man, we all knew this was happening from abu gonzalez testimony in re: "the program the president has acknowledged" - i guess this is one of the one's that was referenced. I suggest we follow the electronic frontier foundation lawsuit closely and offer support where we can.
God help us all.
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteI defer to your legal knowledge, but there's a basic issue that may be being overlooked - the NSA is not allowed to spy on Americans.
Here's a quote from Russell Tice:
"As a signals intelligence officer, kids who go right out of college and work for the NSA, this is drilled into you, especially when you're young: You will not do this. This is number one of the NSA's Ten Commandments: You will not spy on Americans."
Shouldn't that be considered first?
This might be an extremely dumb question, but are there any implications for "freedom of association"? I know that phrase isn't in the Bill of Rights, but don't people have a right to, say, call whomever they wish? As far as we know, the NSA isn't preventing that, but isn't there some sort of expectation of privacy there, even if that may or may not extend to the records of the calls? And what about Justice Brandeis' famous "right to be left alone"?
ReplyDeleteGlenn, I'm a a little confused here.
ReplyDeleteDoes FISA apply to purely domestic calls?
I would have thought most of the call records intercepted* by the NSA through this program were domestic in both origin and recipient. Wouldn't that fall under regular federal laws regarding warrants for wiretaps and pen registers?
Or is FISA the primary statute regulating purely domestic telecom spying as well?
* I'm using 'intercepted' here because it's my belief, based on previous reports regarding NSA activities, that these records are not being 'given' to the NSA but are being collected through monitoring equipment installed by the NSA at ATT's, SBC's, and Verizon's backbone switches. If so, reports saying that the call records were 'given' to NSA are probably a subterfuge to conceal the existence and useage of such devices, which would be considered much closer to the legal definition of a pen register than merely having the data sent to them by the phone companies, no matter that the end result is the same.
sorry for the typos above : TIA is what was meant, sometimes my fingers type faster than my brain can comprehend and figure out what i wrote.
ReplyDeleteGiven that the NSA blocked an investigation by the Dept of Justice...by not giving clearance to certain lawyers to speak...can they do the same to block investigation into this scandal in regards to the telecom heads that it is rumored are going to be brought into a committee to tell the congress whats going on? Man, so many questions....and little to no hope of getting any real answers from this congress. Maybe this will be the proverbial straw the broke the rubber stamp republicans' back. Let us hope.
Electronic Frontier Foundation info on pen register cases pending -
ReplyDeletecelltracking!
proud to be waving to a best selling Patriot !
Anonymous: "A program is classified for a reason. Generally, that reason is that disclosure of program activity would harm the security of the country."
ReplyDeleteSlight correction:
*Ostensibly*, that reason is that disclosure of program activity would harm the security of the country.
Generally, that reason is that disclosure of program activity would embarrass someone in a position of political power.
Anonymous: "This might be an extremely dumb question, but are there any implications for "freedom of association"? I know that phrase isn't in the Bill of Rights, but don't people have a right to, say, call whomever they wish?"
ReplyDeleteActuality, that concept *is* in the Bill of Rights, though the exact phasing is "freedom of assembly". It's in the First Amendment.
One of the more disturbing aspects of this NSA scandal is that it's led to few, if any, real leads to terrorists. All those millions, maybe billions, of phone calls logged and bupkus.
ReplyDeleteHow more shocking would it be if the NSA program(s) actually don't even work? That's the finding of a leading "leading authority on social network analysis."
According to Defense Tech:
The worst part -- the thing that's most disappointing to me -- is that this [NSA wiretapping] is not the right way to do this. It's a waste of time, a waste of resources. And it lets the real terrorists run free. [my emphasis]
You know, from what I have heard here and at other blogs, it seems most people are concerned with person to person private phone calls being monitored and intercepted by this program. As well they should be. But it seems to me that American businesses and corporations ought to be very concerned about their communications and their intellectual content rights and other issues involved with conduct during the workday and protection of it's secrets. Does anybody else think that this is an even bigger concern, and because the Rethugs have always traditionally been associated with Big Business and corporations, that this may be one big divisive truth telling moment for American business and it's realtion to the Bush Administration?
ReplyDeletePeople who fundamentally change their views on issues this significant all in order to defend a Leader's conduct can be called many things. None of them is flattering.
ReplyDelete----
Which is why I hope you will all join me in assuring them that President Hillary Clinton will never abuse this authority, and thank y'all for giving it to her.
My two favorite things to do to wingnuts who defend this shit:
1) Ask them what they'd do if Clinton did it -- and then smack them down if they attempted to use the discredited "Gorelick gambit".
2) Tell them how lovely it will be when Hillary is sworn in on January 20, 2009 and gets to use all these lovely powers Bush has provided her.
John Gabriel--Yes, I meant the exact phrase isn't there, but "freedom of assembly" is. I was wondering what exactly the "freedom of association" derived from that clause refers to, covers, etc. Thanks.
ReplyDeletePresident Bush's handlers (and his dwindling knee-jerk defenders) clearly haven't internalized the fact that with a public approval rating in freefall, rushing him out to hastily reassure us that no Americans' rights have been violated without giving any details only serves to have create further distrust and suspicion.
ReplyDeleteIts way too late for "trust us, nothing to see here", and it's clear that Congressmen on both sides of the aisle know it.
John Gabriel:
ReplyDeleteI was pointing out that improper classification is itself a serious abuse. In this case, it hid a breathtakingly broad domestic surveillance program from the American people.
Further, this is somethig that can be questioned, publically, without doing a big dance. There had to be a rationale, and the classification authority is public knowledge.
As a non-lawyer I can't comment on the legality of the NSA's actions but as an American citizen I think this whole thing reeks of the worst kind of abuse of power. You are right Mr Greenwald, this is un-American ( a word from back when being American didn't mean doing bad things ). I think of our supine Congress and the rubber stamp republicans and I wonder how many of them have had their personal lives exposed through a simple analysis of their social networks as revealed in their phone records. Same goes for journos working to expose government abuses - how can they keep the confidentiality of their sources if the government already knows who they have been talking to. No need to actually listen to the conversations themselves. Just watching Colbert give his performance in front of the press and president you sense the fear in the room.
ReplyDeleteOn top of all these "suspicions" I have a much bigger one and it relates to network theory. In layman's terms, it is possible from the aggregated call data to deduce the complete social network of the US. Studies have shown that human social networks have points, an individual such as yourself or an organization, which connect separate subnetworks. The observed universe of individual combinations can be described by a power law that depicts individual groupings as a scale-free network such as the familiar graphs of the World Wide Web in which a few individuals have dense connections and the vast majority of individuals have sparse ones. A few individuals such as Juan Cole or Glenn Greenwald can be found in a large variety of contexts while most individuals have a very few number of contexts in which they appear. It is possible to control the access to information, and maybe the activities, of the subnetworks by "surgically" disconnecting from the social network certain nodes at strategic moments. Conversely, one could bring together two previously disconnected subnetworks, called a static hole, with a new node and thus control their communication. In sum, the manipulation of relatively small numbers of people or organizations can result in huge changes for the society as a whole. This whole issue reeks of the very beginnings of complex, and largely invisible, engineered social control the likes of which Hitler or Stalin would have wetted their pants to possess. This is not only about terror and it must be stopped.
ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_networking
Can I personally sue AT&T instead of being involved in the class action suit and what are my chances of winning? I would love to cash in on their treason.
ReplyDeleteI think this goes one step further to verifying what I have thought about this program all along. They don't want to have to wait for probable cause. They want to be able to search everyone, everywhere, without reason, and pin tags on the suspicious ones.
ReplyDeleteThe reason FISA is inadequate for their purposes is that you need a reason to tap people, and they want to tap people to get the reason to suspect them. The same mentality as the "preemptive strike"
Finding the enemy before he emerges.. I can't help but think we are well down the path to thoughtcrime.
John B.:"[It] seems to me that American businesses and corporations ought to be very concerned about their communications and their intellectual content rights ... and protection of it's secrets. Does anybody else think that this is an even bigger concern... that this may be one big divisive truth telling moment for American business and it's relation to the Bush Administration?"
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't call it a bigger concern, most people will naturally be more worried about their personal communications.
However, as an IT worker, the answer to your question is "Yes". It will be a huge concern in the business world -- part of the desire for strong encryption in the business world has been to pre-empt gov't surveillance.
There will be countless corporate IT meetings over the next couple of months over whether their own systems are being caught in this communications dragnet, and if there is anything they can do to avoid it, such as switching to a non-participating VOIP provider.
Also? Might be a good time to buy some Qwest stock.
While Qwest telephone service doesn't cover the entire country, it's business IP services do. For instance, the last company I worked for used Qwest for its T1's and leased lines (frame relay and asynchronous transfer mode), and they were located in Brooklyn.
I'd imagine a lot of companies will be looking into Qwest for T1's, etc. over the next six months.
In all honesty who knows what other covert surveilance is going on?
ReplyDeleteThey never admit to anything until it's been discovered. They maybe monitoring phone calls for all we know. For among what we do know, is that they lie repeatedly and are not to be trusted.
It's a sorry day.
"Freedom of Association" is a phrase that libertarians as cover for racism. (sorry for the overgeneralization.)
ReplyDeleteIts code for one's right to discriminate based on whatever criteria one chooses free from government interference.
I'm wondering if this is not only a violation of FISA by the Bush Administration, but also a violation of the privacy aggreement between each and every customer of AT&T, Verizon and Bellsouth - as well as a violation of the Telecommunications Act of 1996, which guarantees that CPNI (Customer Personal Network Information) will be kept confidential?
ReplyDeleteVyan
Please take a moment fellow bloggers to call, fax or email your various Congressmen and express your opinion on this development. Since you're reading this, I assume you've already decided not be be one of the QUIET AMERICANS. Take it back folks!
ReplyDeleteWould a suit in District Court of San Francisco be possible to be brought by a third year law student?
ReplyDeleteI'm grasping but I'm thinking along the lines of trying to find standing against the telcos for releasing phone records to the government.
Privacy laws have less teeth at the Federal level but here in CA the legislature has strengthend privacy laws greatly.
Maybe it would be better to file locally and not in fed court and just use the CA statutes to try and find standing. I'll try to find the applicable law here soon.
This is how a dictator would act...this is not how a Patriot would act!
ReplyDeleteHere's a question--perhaps it's been answered already but I didn't notice it--How about Working Assets? Did Working Assets, Mr. Greenwald's publisher, turn over their records to the NSA?
ReplyDeleteCan I personally sue AT&T instead of being involved in the class action suit and what are my chances of winning?
ReplyDeleteI was wondering about this from a consumer standpoint as well. Is it possible that they could be sued for breach of contract for sharing information that users did not authorize? I guess it might depend on whether the user opted out (I know that some individual states' attorneys general have been trying to make it an opt in vs. and opt out system).
Anyway, I would be interested in knowing whether a class-action or other legal route would have any legs - I have 10 months left on a contract with my carrier, and am plenty steamed, but the cost of breaking the contract from my end is pretty steep.
drlemur got me thinking. if this were a one-off data dump, it is a snapshot in time. how many phone calls have been made since? in order for this to be useful, the data would have to be refreshed every so often. has anyone asked if the phone companies are still providing our info to NSA?
ReplyDeleteThe Cingular (a subsidiary of AT&T and Bellsouth) Privacy agreement.
ReplyDeleteWe will not sell or disclose your personal information to unaffiliated third parties without your consent except as otherwise provided in this Policy. We may use information about who you are, where and when you browse on the Web, where your wireless device is located, and how you use our network to provide you better service and enrich your user experience when you sign up or use any of our products or services.
[snip...]
Under federal law, you have a right, and we have a duty, to protect the confidentiality of information about your telephone usage, the services you buy from us, who you call, and the location of your device on our network when you make a voice call. This information is sometimes referred to as "Customer Proprietary Network Information," or "CPNI." We share CPNI and other personal information about you with affiliates of AT&T and BellSouth Corporation (the parent companies of Cingular) that provide telecommunications services to which you also subscribe. Before sharing CPNI in any other way, we will first notify you of your rights under the law, describe how we intend to use the CPNI, and give you an opportunity to opt out of such usage (or, when required by law, to opt in)
Vyan
A few issues that come to mind here:
ReplyDelete(1) Federal wiretapping laws include both criminal and civil sanctions. What sort of criminal liability might the telco executives who agreed to this be facing? And who would have jurisdiction to prosecute them?
(2) From the phone records that the telcos apparently provided to the NSA, one could determine all sorts of demographic information simply by correlating it with commercially-available phone databases: a person's interests, political affiliation, church membership, etc. (What does it mean if a person has made calls to, say, Planned Parenthood? Or the NRA?) Does anyone put it past the Bush Administration to use such information for GOP campaign purposes? For political espionage? To determine who is and who is not awarded a HUD contract? What's the likelihood that some "overzealous staffer" has trundled a couple of hard drives down the street to Ken Mehlman's office?
"It's better to be a pig satisfied than Socrates dissatisfied."
ReplyDeleteBentham is so yesterday. I had to do a quick rewrite on that to get it au courante. Done.
How do you feel about the government's database of domestic phone calls?
It bothers me 76%
I'm OK with it 24%
Total Votes: 107,125
Any statisticians out there? I need some help breaking down this "24%".
What is the percentage of people who work for Government?
I'll plug in 15% as a working hypothesis but corrections would be appreciated.
If all these people got an assurance of a "pass" to keep them loyal to the Boss, that leaves about 9% of people who perceive their personal lives to be so totally lacking in anything of "interest" that they don't mind if their deepest, darkest secret is on the cover of the National Enquirer.
(What? You didn't know that was a "subsid"?)
OK. Here's where I need a statistician. What is the I.Q. cut-off point (starting at the bottom) for the bottom 9% of I.Q.s in this country? 33?
My boy OK is OK, however. Whew.
The Justice Dept. just came out and said it doesn't have the authority to investigate lawyers.
Or something.
Regrets, I've had a few, but then again, too few to mention...
Thanks, Frank. Great song.
Speaking of regrets, the poster who quoted Di forgot to include she ended by saying it would be very regrettable if Hayden's nomination ran into trouble.
Here comes Jane Harmon weighing in. Yippee, the cavalry. (Psst, how come the cavalry looks suspiciously like the caravan?)
"White House is in free-fall", chirps Jane. "Americans are alarmed and rightly so. Americans have lost their trust in a White House which refuses to obey the law."
No problemo dear. Just whip up a few laws which legalize all this stuff and you can get back to your day job.
What is it, by the way?
Anon@5:15 said:
ReplyDeleteHere's a question--perhaps it's been answered already but I didn't notice it--How about Working Assets? Did Working Assets, Mr. Greenwald's publisher, turn over their records to the NSA?
Working Assets doesn't have a network of its own. They lease their service from the big telcos. So it's unlikely they're caught up in this.
We had our accountability moment in November 2004, and apparently we chose a dictatorship.
ReplyDeleteJust another lie "catapulted" by the MSM
Poll: 2004 Election Was Stolen; according to viewers of all news networks except Fox News
In the first poll of its kind, OpEdNews.com, in the second OpEdNews/Zogby People's poll has learned that except for viewers of right wing news show, Fox News, poll respondents believe that the 2004 presidential election was stolen.
Overall, the poll found that 39% said that the 2004 election was stolen. 54% said it was legitimate. Shortly after the election, the NY Times suggested that a few fringe extremists and bloggers were concerned about the theft of the election.
But let's look at the demographics on this question. Of the people who watch Fox news as their primary sourc of TV news, one half of one percent believe it was stolen and 99% believe it was legitimate. Among people who watched ANY other news source but FOX, more felt the election was stolen than legitimate. The numbers varied dramatically:
Here are the stats by network listed as first choice by respondent and whether the respondent thought the election was stolen or legitimate.
Network Stolen Legitimate
ABC 56% 32%
CBS 64% 31%
CNN 70% 24%
FOX .5% 99%
MSNBC 65% 24%
NBC 49% 43%
Other 56% 28%
The poll asked people which was their favorite source of TV newst. Among the 689 people in the poll who answered this question, 37% watched Fox news, more than any other single network. CNN came in second with 21% with MSNBC third, with 13%. It makes sense for these three 24/7 news networks to be the top in this category, since the others air news for limited parts of the day.
A lot more information on Fox News viewers :
After Fox news, the second choice for news network among Fox viewers is ABC 38% and MSNBC 37%, followed by CNN with 27%, NBC with 19% and CBS with 6%.
74% of it's viewers are married. 15% are single and 10% are divorced, widowed or separated. Whether they are fair and balanced, is up for debate. But they appear to be THE family channel, at least for Republicans. 64% have children. 85% of them come from non-union families. Among churchgoers, half go to church, temple or mosque rarely, never or just holidays. But for Fox News Viewers half go frequently. Among NBC viewers, 67% go most frequently. NBC has the most religious viewers. More born-agains watch NBC; 54% to 46%, and Born Agains are least likely to watch ABC: 95%/5%, MSNBC 78%/22%, CBS 76% to 24% and CNN 65%/35%. More Catholics, Protestants and Born-agains watch Fox news than any other news network.
82% of people who identify themselves as conservative and 80 of those who consider themselves very conservative watch Fox News. Zero liberal or progressives watch Fox News as their first choice, and 42% of moderates chose FOx news as their first choice. The first choice of progressives (very liberal) is Other, assumingly C-Span and the like. The first choice of Liberals is CNN.
Fox news is the favorite of suburban, small city and rural dwellers. CNN is the first choice of large city dwellers.
Among immigrants Fox news is the top favorite.
46% of men and 30% of women watch Fox news.
Less than 2% of Democrats favor Fox news, while it's the favorite for 75% of Republicans and 34% of independents. For Republicans and independents, Fox is the network that is first choice. CNN is viewed as first choice by Democrats, with 38% choosing it.
The OpEdNews.com/Zogby People's Poll, with 42 questions, also found that the PA US Senate Race, with Rick Santorum, is not at all like other polls have reported. While Casey Has a 47-37% lead. He has spent millions of dollars to get it. His opponents Chuck Pennacchio and Alan Sandals are both within similar range, with 45% and 43% with Pennacchio having spent under $100,000 and Sandals having spent under $500,000. Both the current and a previous OpEdNews/Zogby people's poll found, that after respondents were given position information on the candidates, that Casey's lead disappears and he pulls a smaller percentage than either Pennacchio or Sandals.
We are waiting on further crosstab analysis of the data. We believe that we will find that if you pull out Fox viewers, the rest of America has a far different view of America and the Bush Administration
This poll was run May 9th through 10th, in Pennsylvania, by the Zogby organization.
Methodology statement from Zogby:
Zogby International conducted interviews of 707 likely voters online. Panelists who have agreed to participate in Zogby polls online were invited to participate in the survey. The online poll ran from 5/9/06 through 5/10/06. The margin of error is +/- 3.8 percentage points. Margins of error are higher in sub-groups. Slight weights were added to party, age, race, religion, and gender to more accurately reflect the population.
More detailed Statistics from the poll will be posted later today.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_rob_kall_060511_poll_3a_2004_election_.htm
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteWe had our accountability moment in November 2004, and apparently we chose a dictatorship.
ReplyDeleteCRANKS AND KOOKS: KERRY WON IN '04 ... HEAR ONE OF THEM--LARRY DAVID--TELL YOU THE STONE-COLD EVIDENCE THAT, YEP, GEORGE BUSH STOLE IT IN 2004. AGAIN.
Hear Larry David, auteur of HBO's "Curb Your Enthusiasm," and principal writer of the "Seinfeld" series, and Greg Palast reading Palast's new book, Armed Madhouse, Chapter 4: The Con-Kerry Won. Read the except here.
http://www.gregpalast.com/podcasting/ArmedMadhouse3-16.mp3
and
http://www.gregpalast.com/podcasting/ArmedMadhouse3-15.mp3
It looks like this issue is resonating with the public and the press.
ReplyDeleteDAMN! I was looking forward to seeing more about HOOKERGATE!!!!
Inquiring minds want to know... were the prostitutes male or female and where they adults or children?
Generally, that reason is that disclosure of program activity would harm the security of the country.
ReplyDeleteAre you a moron? "Generally" the reason is this administration does this is to cover the theft of 2 national elections, high crimes, treason, war crimes, and crimes against humanity.
Can I personally sue AT&T instead of being involved in the class action suit and what are my chances of winning? I would love to cash in on their treason.
ReplyDeleteME TOO!
The good news is, with this administration, there is plenty of treason to go around.
Am I the only one seeing blogger errors today? Are the netroots making too much chatter for the system or do you think that the readers at NSA just can't keep up?
ReplyDeleteAny chance of Russ Feingold jumping on this?
ReplyDeleteJames Bamford: Upcoming live on CNN.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, if the Communications Act prohibits telecommunication companies from disclosing this information as "customer proprietary information", that should have some relevance under the Smith v. Maryland "third party" line of cases, shouldn't it?
ReplyDeleteIt's a sad day in our Fourth Amendment jurisprudence that federal telephone data mining of this scope is not an unreasonable search in violation of our constitution.
That's the provision most ordinary Americans expect to protect them from this sort of executive misconduct.
ENDER SAID: That's about where I am, yes. At this point I am looking for a fight.
ReplyDeleteBut you guys keep up the legalese. It seems to be working so well.
The President's approval rating has plummeted from 60% to 31%, and Republicans are in trouble on every front.
But go ahead and set things on fire and throw rocks through windows while you pump your fist and scream PEOPLE POWER! and wave around a sign demanding END RACISM AND WAR NOW!!!. You'll feel a lot about yourself - you'll be really cool and radical - and I'm sure you'll accomplish a great deal in helping to defeat this administration.
Morons like you sicken me. And the worst thing about you is you're always all talk.
TDS: Another Telco not co-operating
ReplyDeletehttp://www.tdstelecom.com/absolutenews/templates/news_template.asp?articleid=419&zoneid=5
TDS' Policy Concerning Customer Call Records
Date: May 11, 2006
For More Information Contact:
DeAnne Boegli
525 Junction Road
Madison, WI 53717
608-664-4428
Recent news reports have called attention to a program of the National Security Agency that has collected call records from major telephone carriers including Verizon, SBC/ATT and Bell South.
TDS has a strong policy to protect our customer records and is in fact mandated by the Communications Act , section 222 to protect your records, and we do so with great care. TDS would only assist law enforcement or government agencies when requested via a valid subpoena. When these requests are made we do comply with state and federal laws.
Calls placed outside of our network which connect to one of the carriers that do participate in this program may become part their database, we are unable to restrict this activity. TDS does not have any authority over the other Carriers that complete your call.
We have no further information regarding the NSA program.
Defense Tech adds the following information in the most recent update to their story on the NSA scandal:
ReplyDelete"To me, it's pretty clear that the people working on this program aren't as smart as they think they are," says former Air Force counter-terrorist specialist John Robb. "Some top level thinking indicates that this will quickly become a rat hole for federal funds (due to wasted effort) and a major source of infringement of personal freedom." John gives a bunch of reasons why. Here's just one:
It will generate oodles of false positives. Al Qaeda is now in a phase where most domestic attacks will be generated by people not currently connected to the movement (like we saw in the London bombings). This means that in many respects they will look like you and me until they act. The large volume of false positives generated will not be hugely inefficient, it will be a major infringement on US liberties. For example, a false positive will likely get you automatically added to a no-fly list, your boss may be visited (which will cause you to lose your job), etc.
As Glen wrote, this phone record scandal is no more clearly illegal than the NSA's earlier violations of FISA, but monitoring people's domestic phone call records (and almost all domestic phone call records have been monitored) is going to be an issue that will decimate the support of an already decimated president. Arlen Specter has had enough.
ReplyDeleteBamford:
ReplyDeleteLegal?
It's alegal according to Bamford because there aren't any laws on the books yet covering data mining and some of other electronic stuff.
(He's knows a lot about NSA. Maybe OK could call him to discuss.)
Constitutional?
Bamford thinks not. It's in violation of the Fourth Amendment even if it is alegal.
Personally, I think the biggest crime of negligence ever committed in this country is that Wolf Blitzer has not yet been placed under House Arrest by some citizen.
Wolf chimes in: But we are facing a very big terrorist threat in this country and we have to give up some of our civil liberties to secure our safety.
(Aside: Patrick Meignan, can't you please go arrest this person and put us out of our misery. You are a good citizen. I think you owe that to the rest of us.)
Bamford: Balderdash. (not his exact words.)
Wolfie, still on the lam: But these programs have been very successful. The government has said they have prevented another attack by terrorists ( Defintion of ter-or-ist See: Belafonte, Harry) and their efforts have apprehended ten people.
Bamford: Like who? The guy who was supposedly going to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge with a blowtorch? Get real. (not his exact words.)
(Aside: Shouldn't we be spending part of the trillions spent on this War on Terror by putting two cops on the beat near the Big Bridges?)
Then Bamford makes what I thought was a very good point:
The things that kill practically everyone in this country are cancer, heart disease, AIDS, etc. Why doesn't the government spend the money on those?
Hmmmm. Guess the 24% never thought of that.....
Previously another NSA expert was interviewed who implied: they're getting it all--your medical records, your charges on credit cards, your travel, what you spend and on what when you are abroad, everything.
(Aside: No wonder gold is at $720. Pay cash.)
The money quote of the day goes to Jack Cafferty:
Boys and girls, we are in big trouble.
Prosecute AG Gonzales for lying to Congress:
ReplyDeleteNADLER: Number two, can you assure us that there is no warrantless surveillance of calls between two Americans within the United States?
GONZALES: That is not what the president has authorized.
NADLER: Can you assure us that it's not being done?
GONZALES: As I indicated in response to an earlier question, no technology is perfect.
NADLER: OK.
GONZALES: We do have minimization procedures in place...
NADLER: But you're not doing that deliberately?
GONZALES: That is correct.
If anyone here is interested in how the NSA analyzes the telephone business records it has received from telecom companies, NPR just interviewed an expert who has written about data mining techniques.
ReplyDeleteHe is speculating that the NSA is starting with the telephone numbers captured from al Qaeda. Then it identifies all the telephone numbers in the US which have contacted the captured al Qaeda numbers. This the the first degree of separation. Then they identify the numbers which have been in communication with the first degree of separation. This is the second degree of separation. NSA will proceed identifying numbers until they have gone through about 5-6 degrees of separation.
Then the NSA computers will look for patterns of shared communications between these numbers to identify likely al Qaeda communication nodes. It is these node numbers which NSA will start surveilling or whose owners the FBI will start to surveil.
The expert says that this is like looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack. Maybe 2-3 out of 10,000 leads will pan out. However, NSA has the resources to track down these leads and believes that the low lead to actual al Qaeda target ratio is worth it when you had no idea the target existed in the first instance.
Very interesting stuff.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, is it possible that AG Gonzales lied in his Senate testimony earlier? Take a look:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000622.php
NADLER: Number two, can you assure us that there is no warrantless surveillance of calls between two Americans within the United States?
GONZALES: That is not what the president has authorized.
NADLER: Can you assure us that it's not being done?
GONZALES: As I indicated in response to an earlier question, no technology is perfect.
NADLER: OK.
GONZALES: We do have minimization procedures in place...
NADLER: But you're not doing that deliberately?
GONZALES: That is correct.
It is true that, strictly speaking, at least based on what we know, the Government has not used pen registers here. They didn't need to. Instead of collecting this information telephone-by-telephone, they just skipped the whole pen register annoyance and had the telecommunications companies give them all of that information for every phone. Still, it is hard to imagine (at least for people acting in good faith) how it could be illegal for the Government to use a pen register device without a court order for a single phone (it appears clear that that is illegal), but it is perfectly legal for the Government to obtain pen register information for everyone's phone in the country without bothering to obtain a court order of any kind.
ReplyDeleteThat is easy. The pen register statute bars the government itself from using a pen register device to collect this data. However, there is nothing in the statute which bars the government from using any other means to gather this data such as requesting telecom companies voluntarily provide their business records.
Independently, the type of information obtained here by the Government seems clearly to fall within FISA's definition of "electronic surveillance." Section 1801(f)(1) of FISA defines "electronic surveillance" to include "the acquisition by an electronic, mechanical, or other surveillance device of the contents of any wire or radio communication sent by or intended to be received by a particular, known United States person who is in the United States. . . " In turn, Section 1801(n) defines the term "contents" as follows:
"Contents," when used with respect to a communication, includes any information concerning the identity of the parties to such communication or the existence, substance, purport, or meaning of that communication
Given that the business records turned over by the telecom companies have no such content information about who is using the telephone or the contents of the conversation, FISA is not implicated.
Ultimately, however, the always-overarching issue is that it doesn't really much matter how these fascinating and academic statutory debates are resolved because the administration has claimed repeatedly that it has the right to violate statutes like this if its doing so is in pursuit of the national defense. As Professor Kerr put it, with great understatement:
Of course, all of the statutory questions are subject to the possible argument that Article II trumps those statutes. As I have mentioned before, I don't see the support for the strong Article II argument in existing caselaw, but there is a good chance that the Administration's legal argument in support of the new law will rely on it.
If the courts have universally held that Article II provides the power to conduct warantless intellience gathering of the content of electronic communications, then it is more than reasonable to assume that the same power exists to collect intelligence through the much less invasive means of asking for business records with no content.
Indeed, the following quoted argument makes this case:
Finally, I would be remiss if I failed to point out this passage written by Andrew McCarthy from the above-linked debate on The Patriot Act and FISA, something McCarthy wrote before he knew the President had ordered eavesdropping on Americans without court approval:
Why such extensive access with virtually no court supervision? Because the items at issue here are primarily activity records voluntarily left in the hands of third parties. As the Supreme Court has long held, such items simply do not involve legitimate expectations of privacy. See, e.g., Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735, 744 (1979).
This renders them categorically different from the private information at issue in the context of search warrants or eavesdropping, in which the court is properly imposed as a bulwark, requiring a demonstration of cause before government may pierce established constitutional safeguards.
Kerr also cited this case in opining that the 4th Amendment requirement for Court oversight through the warrant process simply does not apply to these records.
McCarthy wrote this before he knew that his Leader had ordered the NSA to eavesdrop on Americans without having courts "imposed as a bulwark." Before he knew the President had ordered this, McCarthy said he believed that it is necessary that the government not be permitted to eavesdrop on Americans without judicial approval because such oversight was necessary to protect "established constitutional safeguards." But once he found out that the President ordered eavesdropping without that judicial "bulwark," he changed his mind completely. What he previously said was necessary and proper -- judicial oversight for eavesdropping -- suddenly became totally superfluous and unnecessary, as he became one of the most vocal defenders of the administration's warrantless eavesdropping programs.
Huh? The Supreme Court recognized that reviewing these records does not require the "judicial bulwark" of the 4th Amendment warrant process. How then can McCarthy justify his flip flop based on the lack of a "judicial bulwark."
This analysis of these records has nothing at all to do with the warrantless intelligence gathering by NSA which is authorized under Article II. Coflating the two programs does not change the precedent in Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735, 744 (1979) holding that the 4th Amendment does not affect the request for these business records.
If anyone here is interested in how the NSA analyzes the telephone business records it has received from telecom companies, NPR just interviewed an expert who has written about data mining techniques.
ReplyDeleteHe is speculating that the NSA is starting with the telephone numbers captured from al Qaeda. Then it identifies all the telephone numbers in the US which have contacted the captured al Qaeda numbers. This the the first degree of separation. Then they identify the numbers which have been in communication with the first degree of separation. This is the second degree of separation. NSA will proceed identifying numbers until they have gone through about 5-6 degrees of separation.
Then the NSA computers will look for patterns of shared communications between these numbers to identify likely al Qaeda communication nodes. It is these node numbers which NSA will start surveilling or whose owners the FBI will start to surveil.
The expert says that this is like looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack. Maybe 2-3 out of 10,000 leads will pan out. However, NSA has the resources to track down these leads and believes that the low lead to actual al Qaeda target ratio is worth it when you had no idea the target existed in the first instance.
Very interesting stuff.
Among many charges leveled at Axelrod, Snow declared that “CBS News misleadingly reports that only 8 million seniors have signed up for Medicare prescription drug coverage. But 37 million seniors have coverage....”
ReplyDeleteAxelrod: “Again, the White House is clearly manipulating what I broadcast to fit their agenda. And they are wrong to do that.”
Snow lambastes USA Today also.
Actually, USA Today seems to be pulling out of the gate with a surge recently.
Who owns that paper?
Remember, the NSA is a Pentagon agency. It is the US military that is spying on us.
ReplyDeleteIf the U.S. doesn't become an Orwellian police state, the terrorists will win!!!
ReplyDelete- Garamond12, 05.11.2006
From Daily Dish:
'Darko' Director Investigated Over 'Terrorism Links'
"Donnie Darko" director Richard Kelly could be forced to miss the Cannes Film Festival because his passport is being reviewed by the U.S. government.
Homeland Security is investigating 31-year-old Kelly, reportedly because there is a James Kelly on the terrorist watch list.
Fearing he will be unable to attend the premiere of his new movie, "Southland Tales," at Cannes later this month, Kelly has contacted a U.S. senator and has recruited his mother to hunt out documents to help him prove his American citizenship.
The Virginia-born writer/director fears the issue could be connected to the plot of his new movie, which is in part about security measures taken by the U.S. government following Sept. 11.
He says, "The paranoid conspiracy freak inside me is starting to think this has something to do with the film."
I guess that's how you have to couch things these days unless you never want to see your passport again.
Who is the polling expert on this site?
Question: What were Eva Braun's polling numbers?
Bart: I think you miss the bottom line. Tens (hundreds?) of millions of Americans have become surveillance targets. A large percentage of those Americans, say 75%, are not going to be happy about that.
ReplyDeleteWe are supposed to spy on foreigners. NSA is not a domestic security agency. Since the targets of this operation are... us, presumably the program was classified in the first place so that... we wouldn't know about it.
Please tell me why that is a valid reason to classify the program. I read security guides. Never, never has one said: "this is classified because we don't want Americans to find out that they are being surveilled"
No use arguing this statute or that statute. This administration crossed a bright line.
Is today's news really a shock to anyone here? Personally, ever since 9-11, I've assumed that the government was data-mining on a massive scale.
ReplyDeleteJust FYI, since people are asking...
ReplyDeleteHow Carnivore worked
FAS on ECHELON
Whatever they are doing now... who knows
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteSo it seems that the real lawbreaking was by the rogue agents of the CIA leaking to the NY Times, leading to little of use by liberals but of consequence to terrorists.
ReplyDeleteThis is why it is hard to get excited about all the yelling, anger, and denunciations of Bush. It was all just noise.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBart: I think you miss the bottom line. Tens (hundreds?) of millions of Americans have become surveillance targets.
This is a complete lie. There is absolutely no evidence of this. Once you get beyond the hysterics of the lead USA Today paragraph, you discover that no surveillance is going on. Indeed, this non content information has no personal information whatsoever.
A large percentage of those Americans, say 75%, are not going to be happy about that.
Once again, we get to the real reason behind this latest disclosure of intelligence gathering to the enemy - seeking partisan political advantage by through the Big Lie.
Reprehensible.
We are supposed to spy on foreigners.
No, the objective is to identify and stop al Qaeda and its allies, no matter what their nationality or location.
JaO said...
ReplyDeletebart; If the courts have universally held that Article II provides the power to conduct warantless intellience gathering of the content of electronic communications, then it is more than reasonable to assume that the same power exists to collect intelligence through the much less invasive means of asking for business records with no content.
Except that no court has held that Article II provides such power after Congress has acted by statute to forbid it. So your syllogism is based on a false premise.
The false premise is that Congress has the power to enact a statute to limit or eliminate an Article II constitutional power when Congress has no concurrent Article I power over the subject matter area.
And FISA, like Title III, requires a court order for the government to acquire the bare-bones call records without content.
No it does not. FISA concerns ONLY surveillance of the CONTENT of electronic communications.
Title III is the statutory enforcement of the 4th Amendment, which does not require a warrant for this information.
The tactic of seeking the same information "voluntarily" from the phone companies' "business records" rather than government pen registers may violate only the spirit of FISA and Title III.
The only people who argue that an act violates the "spirit" of a law are those who cannot prove that the act violates the letter of the law. The spirit of the law is in the eye of the beholder and is not enforceable.
the cynic librarian said...
ReplyDeleteProsecute AG Gonzales for lying to Congress:
NADLER: Number two, can you assure us that there is no warrantless surveillance of calls between two Americans within the United States?
GONZALES: That is not what the president has authorized.
NADLER: Can you assure us that it's not being done?
GONZALES: As I indicated in response to an earlier question, no technology is perfect.
NADLER: OK.
GONZALES: We do have minimization procedures in place...
NADLER: But you're not doing that deliberately?
GONZALES: That is correct.
How is this a "lie" (sic)? The USA Today article is not reporting any surveillance between two Americans within the United States.
There is no evidence of this Big Lie being spread around by the leftwing blogosphere.
This is a complete nonissue. It's like the police searching through millions of fingerprint records of innocent people looking for a match against fingerprints found at a crime scene.
ReplyDelete18 U.S.C. 2702 doesn't apply to phone calls, does it? That statute applies only to "electronic communications services," a term that is defined to include "any transfer of signs, signals, writing, images, sounds, data, or intelligence," but NOT "oral communication."
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThis is a complete nonissue. It's like the police searching through millions of fingerprint records of innocent people looking for a match against fingerprints found at a crime scene.
10:00 PM
How do you suppose LE got those fingerprints in the IAFIS database in the first place? Trolls are dumb.
northerer...
ReplyDeleteLast time I checked oral communication was "sound"
Bart says it's all a Big Lie.
ReplyDeleteGood enough for me. I'm going back to sleep, now.
bart,
ReplyDeletedo you deny that FISA limited the president's power to collect intelligence?
why were the offending portions not not declared unconstitutional? why did no president challenge this? why did president bush evade unconstitutional restrictions in the dark rather than by open challenge?
and if some portions were unconstitutional, does that mean the president can simply ignore them? is not a law "the law" until it has been struck down?
please, enlighten.
i think you are exactly right, and that is reflected in Bush's statement this morning, with respect to this program:
ReplyDelete"The government does not listen to domestic phone calls without a court order"
Now, with respect to this program, that is technically true: they do not actually listen to the calls, they just collect information about them. This was obviously a very carefully prepared statement by the DOJ, and it reflects the issues you discussed about.
i think you are exactly right, and that is reflected in Bush's statement this morning, with respect to this program:
ReplyDelete"The government does not listen to domestic phone calls without a court order"
Now, with respect to this program, that is technically true: they do not actually listen to the calls, they just collect information about them. This was obviously a very carefully prepared statement by the DOJ, and it reflects the issues you discussed about.
northerer...
ReplyDeleteLast time I checked oral communication was "sound"
Follow the links. The statute SPECIFICALLY says that it doesn't apply to "oral communication." That's not my phrase, it's what the statute says.
Arlen Specter has had enough.
ReplyDeleteThat just means that they are now monitoring all HIS calls and emails. They have probably put him on the "no fly" list too.
But hey, this is they guy that was part of the "definitive" look at the JFK assassination. He created the magic bullet and then that whitewash was complete.
Don't expect much from him now.
After all, even if he did have the brass to do it, there must be enough skeletons in his closet to shut him up real quick.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeletei think you are exactly right, and that is reflected in Bush's statement this morning, with respect to this program:
"The government does not listen to domestic phone calls without a court order"
Now, with respect to this program, that is technically true: they do not actually listen to the calls, they just collect information about them. This was obviously a very carefully prepared statement by the DOJ, and it reflects the issues you discussed about.
10:52 PM
Fooled you once, shame on me. Shame on you, you fool... as I fool you again and again!
SCREAM LOUDER PEOPLE! THEY ALL NEED TO GO! EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM. BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW AND SEND THEM TO D.C. IT'S TIME FOR ANOTHER REGIME CHANGE!
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteOk first of all you are a moron. Second, of all do the police have your fingerprints? If so why? If not do you support them going door to door to fingerprint everyone so that they would have your finger prints on record to compare them with a set found at a crime scene?
You just left the coffee shop, late one evening, where you had made a pit stop in the head and grabbed a cup of coffee. A few minutes later a bunch of murdering thieves enter...
You are the moron. This is how crime investigation has worked for the past century or more. Fingerprint records are collected for various purposes, not just from criminal suspects. For instance members of the armed forces, people applying for certain kinds of government employment, immigrants applying for visas or naturalization, etc. And if police have reason to believe you were present at a crime scene, you should and will be investigated.
New Harris poll.
ReplyDeleteBush at 29%
Free! Freefalling!
Facists like Bart prove the point. There is nothing they won't do to assault your freedoms.
ReplyDeleteAl Quaeda brought down a couple of buildings and killed people. Bart wants to destroy the Constitution and the entire country if you don't agree with him.
Which is the greater threat? Who is more dangerous to our way of life and our freedoms?
I love Marty Lederman but I don't think he should listen too much to his "friends." (Anyway, I love the tone of Marty's comments in his article and feel confident he is taking his "passion" pills which is what I have been hoping for.)
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, I'm with Bamford. Talk about unreasonable. If this isn't an unreasonable search, the word should be removed from the dictionary. Forget all the laws. Let's go back to a normal interpretation of the Constitution. Words are words.
Today Cafferty said:
We'd better all hope nothing happens to Arlen Specter, the Republican head of the Senate Judiciary Committee, because he might be all that's standing between us and a full-blown dictatorship in this country.
My own opinion is that all that is standing between us and a full-blown dictatorship is the Fourth Amendment.
You are the moron. This is how crime investigation has worked for the past century or more. Fingerprint records are collected for various purposes, not just from criminal suspects. For instance members of the armed forces, people applying for certain kinds of government employment, immigrants applying for visas or naturalization, etc. And if police have reason to believe you were present at a crime scene, you should and will be investigated.
ReplyDeleteAre you a cop? Or just a dumb cop. Inspector LeStrade? Or is it Clouseau?
Brandon Mayfield
A case of misidentifying a print: Brandon Mayfield is an Oregon lawyer who was identified as a participant in the Madrid bombing based on a fingerprint match by the FBI. The FBI Latent Print Unit ran the print collected in Madrid and reported a match against one of 20 fingerprint candidates returned in a search response from their Integrated Automated Fingerprint Identification (IAFIS) system. The FBI initially called the match "100 percent positive" and an "absolutely incontrovertible match". The Spanish National Police examiners concluded the prints did not match Mayfield and they eventually identified another man who matched the prints. The FBI later acknowledged they were in error and he was released from custody. In January of 2006, a U. S. Justice Department report was released which faulted the FBI for sloppy work but exonerated them of more serious allegations.
Shirley McKie
A case of misidentifying a print: Shirley McKie was a policewoman in 1997 when she was accused of leaving her thumb print inside a house in Kilmarnock, Scotland where Marion Ross had been murdered. Although PC McKie denied having been inside the house, she was arrested in a dawn raid the following year and charged with perjury. The only evidence was the thumb print allegedly found at the murder scene. Two American experts testified on her behalf at her trial in May 1999 and she was found not guilty. The Scottish Criminal Record Office (SCRO) never admitted a mistake.
On February 7, 2006, McKie was awarded £750,000 in compensation from the Scottish Executive and the SCRO.[1] Controversy continues to surround the McKie case with calls for the resignations of Scottish ministers and for either a public or a judicial inquiry into the matter.[2]
Stephan Cowans
A case of misidentifying a print: Stephan Cowans was convicted of attempted murder in 1997 after he was accused of the shooting of a police officer while fleeing a robbery in Roxbury, Massachusetts. He was implicated in the crime by the testimony of two witnesses, one of which was the victim. The other evidence was a fingerprint on a glass mug that the assailant drank water from, and experts testified that the fingerprint belonged to him. He was found guilty and sent to prison with a sentence of 35 years. While in prison he earned money cleaning up biohazards to accrue enough money to have the evidence tested for DNA. The DNA did not match his, he had already served six years in prison before he was released.
William West
A story that some regard as apocryphal circulates about events occurring in the late 19th century when a man was spotted in the incoming prisoner line at the U.S. Penitentiary in Leavenworth, Kansas by a guard who recognized him and thought he was already in the prison population. Upon examination, the incoming prisoner claimed to be named Will West, while the existing prisoner was named William West. According to their Bertillon measurements, they were essentially indistinguishable. Only their fingerprints could readily identify them, and the Bertillon Method was discredited. There is evidence that men named Will and William West were both imprisoned in the Federal Penitentiary in Leavenworth, Kansas, between 1903 and 1909. However, the details of the case are suspicious, especially since they differ between retellings, and the story did not appear in print until 1918. Today, people familiar with the story differ on whether the story was accurate, a test of people (possibly separated twins) who bore a striking resemblance, a test of known twins, or complete fiction. The story of Will West is mentioned on page 167 of Forensic Uses of Digital Imaging by John C. Russ, with mug shots of "the two Will Wests" on page 168.
PS. Hypatia, do you see why Alito was the wrong choice?
ReplyDeleteHarriet Miers would have been better. At least once Jr. is out of office she could arrive at good decisions.
As a commenter at Marty Lederman's site wrote, the Constitution is whatever 5 Justices think it is, or something like that.
Eyes Wide Open said...
ReplyDeletePS. Hypatia, do you see why Alito was the wrong choice?
Noooo! Are you an angry leftist? Are you at least... angry yet?
If a kid is being molested by one parent and goes to the other parent to tell them, and that parent is a blind moron in denial, and allows the molestation to continue, repeatedly telling the kid that he's crazy and angry and mean, do you think that kid has a right to be angry?
Hi liberals, your friend Karl here. Forgive me for stating the obvious but your dispute with Republicans is the so-called narcissism of minor differences, "a convenient and relatively harmless satisfaction of the inclination to aggression, by means of which cohesion between the members of the community is made easier." (Freud). The very idea of America, capital accumulation, is common to both parties. American politics are simply the political weapon of money, and the media is the means through which money operates in a liberal democracy. Not once in your history has a politician, whether Democrat or Republican, espoused or implemented a policy that did not set in motion and ultimately serve only money, with the predictable results you are beginning to notice: accelerating social and economic inequality; declining marginal returns with regard to investments in organizational solutions to socioeconomic problems; ever-deepening hierarchies of control -- the obsession with law and order in your “culture” is telling -- missing white women, hello? -- not to mention historically unprecedented rates of incarceration, NSA eavesdropping, and so on; rapidly dropping levels of literacy, critical understanding, and general intellectual awareness; the emptying out of cultural content and its replacement with kitsch and commercialism. It’s no accident the dumbest man in the world was elected President twice in a row. It’s what representative in the term representative democracy means.
ReplyDeleteThe tragic comedy of the narcissism of minor differences is that both sides are simply assisting money to be more effective. One cannot even call this corruption, because it is in fact the necessary end of your system, and the reason your system is quickly coming to an end.
Did you think America was immortal?
Karl Marx
Ok people, this whole thing is geting way out of hand.
ReplyDeleteHere is portions of Qwest's privacy policy. In short, they own everything, and can give the info to whoever they want. I'm sure the same applies to all the other telco's as well. Would somebody like to explain why access by government would be criminal and a marketing company wouldn't? This should be good. Heh,
Note this: "Our representatives pull up account records and may refer to your bill, your calling patterns, and other information we have to answer questions you may have or recommend how we can best serve you."
And this: "We share information within our Qwest companies to enable us to better understand our customers' product and service needs, and to learn how to best design, develop, and package products and services to meet those needs. . . . Currently, our primary lines of business include local and long-distance services, wireless services, cable services, dedicated web hosting, Internet access for businesses and consumers, on-line services, and directory publishing. We also offer other products and services, for example, Frame Relay, Asynchronous Transfer Mode (ATM), telephone equipment, voice mail services, and directory advertising."
And this: "As a general rule, Qwest does not release customer account information to unaffiliated third parties without your permission unless we have a business relationship with those companies where the disclosure is appropriate."
So let me get this straight, you people are going off the wall over phone records that aren't secret? But you'll sabotage a plan to try and identify people that want to kill you?
Why in the world would anyone want people with such a warped set of priorities to lead this country?
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDeleteOk people, this whole thing is geting way out of hand.
You can say that again. But it's the right hand, not the left. In fact, the right hand is so offensive, I think we may have to cut it off... at the knees.
>do you deny that FISA limited the president's power to collect intelligence?<
ReplyDeleteOf course he does. That's why he keeps repeating the article II, article I baloney.
Because article 1 includes the phrase "herein granted" and article 2 doesn't, he has concluded that the failure of the founders to explicitly empower Congress to regulate wiretaps, means that they don't have that ability.
That is his entire argument, everything else is just bluster.
Of course, some court may eventually rule his interpretation as being correct, but in the meantime noone in the current administration has shown any willingness to put that doctrine to an actual test.
My whole problem is this. If Congress can't pass a law that prevents the President from ordering what would otherwise be illegal wiretaps then they likewise couldn't pass a law that would prevent him from ordering what would otherwise be illegal assasinations.
Sliding the rest of the way down that slippery slope, if Osama Bin Laden represents a legitimate target for such an order, then why not Michael Moore. After all, we have it on good authority that he aids and abets the enemy. Just ask Ann Coulter.
Shooter thinks you save America by turning it into the "evil empire".
ReplyDeleteGive me liberty or death, Shooter,
This country is big, but it ain't that big. It just ain't big enough for the both of us. 29% bitches!
Sliding the rest of the way down that slippery slope, if Osama Bin Laden represents a legitimate target for such an order, then why not Michael Moore. After all, we have it on good authority that he aids and abets the enemy. Just ask Ann Coulter.
ReplyDeleteOr Shooter, or Bart once we take control.
29% bitches!
Shooter 242...Why in the world would anyone want people with such a warped set of priorities to lead this country?
ReplyDeleteNone of us could believe it either, but he managed to get in there twice, and both times it was "questionable" if not outright tampering and fraud.
The Exalted said...
ReplyDeletebart, do you deny that FISA limited the president's power to collect intelligence?
Yes. The Constitution trumps a statute enacted without Constitutional authority.
why were the offending portions not not declared unconstitutional?
Because no American has been injured and brought a case.
why did no president challenge this?
What is there to challenge? The Prez has all the current case law. Anyone attempting to enforce FISA would have to change the case law.
why did president bush evade unconstitutional restrictions in the dark rather than by open challenge?
Because only a complete dolt, like Carter for instance, would inform the enemy in a time of war of the means and methods of our intelligence gathering in order to bring a court case.
and if some portions were unconstitutional, does that mean the president can simply ignore them? is not a law "the law" until it has been struck down?
Yes, as I posted before, the Clinton DOJ looked at that issue and found that the court cases are unanimous that the President can and should ignore unconstitutional laws.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteFacists like Bart prove the point. There is nothing they won't do to assault your freedoms.
Ah, the usual retort of a leftist when he runs out of intellectual ammunition - which is usually pretty quick - they call you a Nazi.
Bart wants to destroy the Constitution and the entire country if you don't agree with him.
Which part of the Constitution would that be? The Supremes have already ruled twice that sharing business records about telephone calls does not violate the 4th Amendment.
Which is the greater threat? Who is more dangerous to our way of life and our freedoms?
Go ask the families of the 3500 murdered Americans whether they support the data mining performed by Able Danger which identified the Atta 9/11 cell before the attack. Then ask them what they think of the DoD lawyers who blocked the Able Danger team from notifying the FBI and possibly preventing the attack - all in the name of "privacy" for the terrorists.
Bart...
ReplyDeleteGlad to see your awake.
I'd like to ask you directly.
What is it that motivates you to post on these threads. It seems that everyone here knows exactly how they feel about the NSA program (which surprising considering that none of us have a clue as to what it actually entails.) But your here every afternoon and night explaining how everything that GW does is AOK because noone has the authority to stop him.
So what's in it for you?
Talk to me......
Ender said:
ReplyDelete"Perhaps we could eschew the violent revolution by peacefully taking to the streets, striking and in other ways cause general economic unrest for the powers that be. It seemed to work for Ghandi and King."
My thinking is that as a first step we should all switch to Quest tommorrow and suggest/advise all of our friends and relatives to do the same. At the same time asking them to pass along the info too.
Nothing gets a companies attention as fast as mass defection of their customers to a competitor.
Obviously Bart seeks to confuse the issues. Get this thru your thick skull - never before in history has a government manged to acquire so much information about its citizens. The availability of the complete map of social networks in this country is a nightmare that threatens to make us not free. The explanation that somehow the governement will do some things but not others with this info is idiotic in its face. Likewise, the assumption that NSA takes the US phone numbers found in possession of terrorists and plugs it into the ATT call info and tracks into the 6th degree of separation is deeply moronic. As found by sociologists many years ago there are only 6 degrees of separation between any two human beings on this Earth so we all are connected to Osama at some point. Bart, I have news for you - you are probably a 5th degree associate of Bin Ladin.
ReplyDelete>The availability of the complete map of social networks in this country is a nightmare that threatens to make us not free.<
ReplyDeleteNeed I remind us that every phone call made to/from a reporter to/from an anonymous source is included in those records!
Be very afraid!
melior said...
ReplyDeletePresident Bush's handlers (and his dwindling knee-jerk defenders) clearly haven't internalized the fact that with a public approval rating in freefall, rushing him out to hastily reassure us that no Americans' rights have been violated without giving any details only serves to have create further distrust and suspicion.
Its way too late for "trust us, nothing to see here", and it's clear that Congressmen on both sides of the aisle know it.
If Bush says it is daylight, I first check my clock and then walk to the door and open it to look and see outside for myself before believing it.
This new revelation brings up fewer privacy concerns: There is a big distinction between eavesdropping on private conversations and analyzing call traffic for patterns. As one Washington telecom lawyer put it, "It's a nonstarter."
ReplyDeleteShooter242 said...
ReplyDelete"Ok people, this whole thing is geting way out of hand."
Yeah, and Bush is the one that got it there.
>these laws seem to bind the companies rather than the government.<
ReplyDeleteForgive the wholesale quoting
1. It violates the Stored Communications Act. The Stored Communications Act, Section 2703(c), provides exactly five exceptions that would permit a phone company to disclose to the government the list of calls to or from a subscriber: (i) a warrant; (ii) a court order; (iii) the customer’s consent; (iv) for telemarketing enforcement; or (v) by “administrative subpoena.” The first four clearly don’t apply. As for administrative subpoenas, where a government agency asks for records without court approval, there is a simple answer – the NSA has no administrative subpoena authority, and it is the NSA that reportedly got the phone records.
2. The penalty for violating the Stored Communications Act is $1000 per individual violation. Section 2707 of the Stored Communications Act gives a private right of action to any telephone customer “aggrieved by any violation.” If the phone company acted with a “knowing or intentional state of mind,” then the customer wins actual harm, attorney’s fees, and “in no case shall a person entitled to recover receive less than the sum of $1,000.”
(The phone companies might say they didn’t “know” they were violating the law. But USA Today reports that Qwest’s lawyers knew about the legal risks, which are bright and clear in the statute book.)
3. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act doesn’t get the telcos off the hook. According to USA Today, the NSA did not go to the FISA court to get a court order. And Qwest is quoted as saying that the Attorney General would not certify that the request was lawful under FISA. So FISA provides no defense for the phone companies, either.
In other words, for every 1 million Americans whose records were turned over to NSA, the telcos could be liable for $1 billion in penalties, plus attorneys fees. You do the math.
– Peter Swire and Judd Legum
Link
PhD9 said...
ReplyDeleteBart...I'd like to ask you directly.
What is it that motivates you to post on these threads. So what's in it for you?
The perhaps vain hope I can talk one or two of you back from the precipice of turning your backs completely on your country in a time of war.
I am deadly serious because war is deadly serious business.
I served during the first Persian Gulf War and my youngest brother just went back for his second tour in Iraq.
For me, this isn't simply a game of political gotchya. This is real life personal.
The arguments being advanced here protect the enemy, not any innocent American.
None of our rights are in the least bit in danger by anything which has been disclosed to the enemy by some traitors in the intelligence community to a partisan press.
No one has offered a single innocent American who has been in the least way harmed by the NSA.
The closest I have seen to a genuine legal case against the NSA Program is being advanced by a perp convicted of financially supporting al Qaeda.
For God's sake people. Pretend Kerry is President and get behind your country again.
JaO said...
ReplyDeleteMe: And FISA, like Title III, requires a court order for the government to acquire the bare-bones call records without content.
bart: No it does not. FISA concerns ONLY surveillance of the CONTENT of electronic communications.
Title III is the statutory enforcement of the 4th Amendment, which does not require a warrant for this information.
You are quite wrong.
FISA includes an entire subchapter, SUBCHAPTER III - PEN REGISTERS AND TRAP AND TRACE DEVICES FOR FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE PURPOSES, devoted to acquisition of the non-content information such as phone numbers.
There is no allegation that the government is using a pen register to obtain this information. FISA does not address the voluntary provision of this information by a third party.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"This new revelation brings up fewer privacy concerns: There is a big distinction between eavesdropping on private conversations and analyzing call traffic for patterns. As one Washington telecom lawyer put it, "It's a nonstarter."
What new revelation? Sorry but you need to put your comment in context for me to be able to understand what you are trying to say.
Glenn, I think you are dead wrong about the pen registers not being used. Where's that information come from? According to Slashdot, this is exactly how this type of collection is done:
ReplyDeleteTraditionally, the devices which record dialed phone numbers are called pen registers, and trap-and-trace devices. The ECPA provided some legal privacy protection. It was controversial when Section 214 of the Patriot Act amended 50 USC 1842 to allow the FBI to record this information with minimal oversight. The Department of Justice has been required for some time to report to Congress the number of pen registers and trap-and-traces, though in recent years [PDF, see question 10] it declared that information classified.
I'd be interested in knowing where you get the idea that pen registers aren't in play here.
bart: There is no allegation that the government is using a pen register to obtain this information.
ReplyDeleteWhere do you get this information from? See my previous posting to this one. There it is explicitly stated by tech folks that it is exactly pen registers that are required to perform this type of snoopin. Please provide a citation and web site that contradicts this information.
“Given that another government agency — the IRS — maintains information on American citizens’ employment, banking, investments, mortgages, charitable contributions and even any declared medical expenses, this hardly seems like a major assault on personal liberty.” Ooh! Shocking new report! The IRS has a database with your personal information in it! That story is just waiting to be discovered.
ReplyDeletedwbh:
ReplyDeleteI was so happy about finding the statute that prohibited unauthorized pen registers in the last thread, and now Glenn says that pen registers weren't used in the first place.
Thanks a lot, Mr. Killjoy. =P
The original "pen registers" were mechanical devices that recorded the call data (dialed numbers) for later examination or analysis. That was in the days before electronic switching. Nowadays, the electronics are such that the data can be immediately and electronically delievred to the LEA (although even there it may end up in a recording device waiting for the agent assigned to go look through it).
But I think that it's not completely absurd to make a legal claim that the phone company's own billing system (or that of a billing service than does thisa for them) is the functional and legal equivalent of a "pen register" when the data is being used to deliver the very same information as a "pen register" installed by the LEAs themselves. One good test of this would be to see if the law really differentiates between who has installed the "pen register"; TPC or the FBI. I doubt it does; maybe someone can research it. FWIW, CALEA equipment today for delivering call content is owned, administered and operated by the telcos themselves (and the court order or wiretap warrant is delivered to the telco's legal department for implementation). And I doubt that anyone would claim that the information the CALEA box is delivering there is "normal business records".
Thus the "normal business records" dodge (which nonetheless require a subpoena of court order) is not a very compelling defence. And if they really want jut "normal business records" (adn not the "call detail records that the big telcos were turning over), give 'em the monthly statement amount. Anything more is more than they are legally entitled to. At least without a court's say-so. Particularly when specific federa; statutes forbid it....
Cheers,
bart...
ReplyDeleteThank you for your prompt reply. Now I can see clearly both what divides us ands what we have in common. The problem as I see it (and again I'm just some shmoe) is that we have failed to properly identify what we mean by the word enemy. 14 lunatics in the employ of Osama Bin Laden attacked us on Sept 11 and shocked us with the realization that the "sole remaining superpower" wasn't invulnerable to attack.
In spite of my peaceful nature, I was supportive of our efforts in Afghanistan though I was puzzled by the low number of our troops committed to the effort and our reliance on foreign fighters.
When the run-up to the current Iraq war began, my scepticism really kicked into high gear and as I've said on previous threads my BS detctor started going off. My two closest coworkers were both veterans, one having seen action during the first Gulf war, so mine was a minority postion among my peers. My choice to beleive Scott Ritter over Colin Powell is now fully vindicated.
So the question remains, who is our enemy?
Clearly anyone who shoots at our soldiers is our enemy. The problem in Iraq is that our enemy and our friends are indistinguishable until they open fire.
I'm getting long winded and losing my point but the bottomn line is that GW Bush has thrown a bunch of resources and effort toward creating enemies as opposed to defeating them, and as a result, I don't trust him to properly identify the enemies who may happen to already be on US soil.
You the other hand apparently have no choice but to trust him and I respect that but the other thing we agree on is this. It isn't about partisanship, it's about preserving our nation!
bart said...
ReplyDelete"The perhaps vain hope I can talk one or two of you back from the precipice of turning your backs completely on your country in a time of war."
So what you are saying Bart is that we should all bow before Bush and trust him to do the right thing. The problem with that is that he hasn't proven to be trustworthy, or to be particularly adept at doing the right thing.
His response on 9/11 was to first just sit there dumbfounded and then to run and hide. Staying incommunicado for the whole day after this country had had the most serious attack on it since Pearl Harbor.
Katrina: He couldn't be bothered to come back from vacation too early just because a little hurricane devastated New Orleans and the Gulf Coast.
Iraq: All the known evidence points to the fact that he and his underlings lied to get us into war. 2,400 dead and 17,000 wounded. And no end in sight.
Budget and trade deficits out of control and another request just made to raise the debt ceiling to north of 9 trillion dollars.
Talk of nuking Iran, yet another country that hasn't harmed us, and is by all estimates years away from being able to produce a bomb that we would need to worry about.
3 dollars a gallon for gas. At least in part because of Bush running around pissing off most oil producing countries and threatening and invading the rest.
The list could go on and on but I'm sure you get my drift.
If you truly do have a son in the military in Iraq I definitely do not blame him for what has happened and I pray for his safe return.
But don't expect me to support Bush. And given the facts I don't know why you do either.
I already fought my war for a lie in Viet Nam and I detest my or anyone elses kids doing it for Bush.
Good point cynic librarian. It is obvious technical clues that would point to actual criminal behaviour by NSA are being discounted too early. Glenn please don't discount the input of technical people in this issue. The danger here is that difficult technical issues of pen registers being neccessary or not may prematurely drag the NSA's actions into the netherworld of constitutional law instead of straightforward violation of existing statutes. My suspicion is that pen registers really where the main means to collect the connection info. Let's not write it off prematurely.
ReplyDeleteshooter242:
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, the Supreme Court has held that there is no constitutionally-protected privacy interest in the numbers one dials to initiate a telephone call. Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735, 742 (1979). Accordingly, the pen register and trap and trace provisions in 18 USC 3121 et seq. establish minimum standards for court-approved law enforcement access to the "electronic or other impulses" that identify "the numbers dialed" for outgoing calls and "the originating number" for incoming calls. 18 USC 3127(3)-(4).
Nonetheless, you still need a court's approval for a "pen register".
FWIW, the line between "the numbers dialed" and actual content have been blurred by the digital age. The feds have started requiring "dialed digit extraction" for buttons pushed after the initial call cut-through, and have claimed that this information is call data, and not the Title III call content. The logic is somewhat akin to this; someone calls the main switchboard at Your Big Corporation, Inc., and gets the automated attendant. They push a few more digits to access a persn by extension or by local name, these digits beign handled by the IVR of the corporation's PBX switch. The gummint says that they want to know who's called, and they want the digits after initial call cut-through to determine the extension. Well maybe (but if they want that, then go ask YBC, Inc. for their PBX logs). But the DDE equipment doesn't know the difference between some extension beign dialed, and an account numebr and pin being entered to do an on-line bank transaction. The latter is quite arguably "call content", and the equipment won't differentiate. As with any restriction of constitutional rights, at this point you have to ask: Is there a less restrictive way to achieve the same "legitimate" government ends? The answer is "yes".
In this day and age, the line betweem call content and call data is becoming increasingly blurred, and given that is the case, the proper course is more protections on individual privacy, not less. IMHO. Protofaswcisst may disagree, of course.
Cheers,
Can someone tell me why the following description by the ATT whistleblower on his installation of the NSA's infrastructure for domestic spying is not illegal?
ReplyDeleteOne of the documents listed the equipment installed in the secret room, and this list included a Narus STA 6400, which is a "Semantic Traffic Analyzer". The Narus STA technology is known to be used particularly by government intelligence agencies because of its ability to sift through large amounts of data looking for preprogrammed targets. The company's advertising boasts that its technology "captures comprehensive customer usage data ... and transforms it into actionable information.... (It) provides complete visibility for all internet applications."
My job required me to connect new circuits to the "splitter" cabinet and get them up and running. While working on a particularly difficult one with a technician back East, I learned that other such "splitter" cabinets were being installed in other cities, including Seattle, San Jose, Los Angeles and San Diego.
What is the significance and why is it important to bring these facts to light?
Based on my understanding of the connections and equipment at issue, it appears the NSA is capable of conducting what amounts to vacuum-cleaner surveillance of all the data crossing the internet -- whether that be peoples' e-mail, web surfing or any other data.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete“Given that another government agency — the IRS — maintains information on American citizens’ employment, banking, investments, mortgages, charitable contributions and even any declared medical expenses, this hardly seems like a major assault on personal liberty.” Ooh! Shocking new report! The IRS has a database with your personal information in it! That story is just waiting to be discovered."
You people need to ask somebody to give you some new material.
The: The law wasn't broken, and even if it was broken others are doing it too, or others did it before us is starting to sound pretty old and wear pretty thin.
the hidden imam: "Is today's news really a shock to anyone here? Personally, ever since 9-11, I've assumed that the government was data-mining on a massive scale."
ReplyDeleteFrankly, I'm appalled, but I can't say that I'm shocked either. Bush, Gonzalez, and the NSA's explanations that the eavesdropping program only targeted "suspected terrorists" never made any sense.
It should have been clear to everyone, all along, that the information they said they were monitoring couldn't possibly be attained or verified without large scale surveillance and data-mining.
the cynic librarian said...
ReplyDelete"Can someone tell me why the following description by the ATT whistleblower on his installation of the NSA's infrastructure for domestic spying is not illegal?"
Nope
shooter242:
ReplyDeleteMore from your cite (which, BTW, was bemonaing the low standards for TnT traces as a threat to privacy):
Recent court decisions have reemphasized that such devices' "only capability is to intercept" the telephone numbers a person calls. Brown v. Waddell, 50 F.3d 285, 292 (4th Cir. 1995) (emphasis added).
But they're wrong. See my post above. And the article you cited makes this point as well.
I'd be glad to enlighten any judge that is willing to listen to me.
Cheers,
Based on my understanding of the connections and equipment at issue, it appears the NSA is capable of conducting what amounts to vacuum-cleaner surveillance of all the data crossing the internet -- whether that be peoples' e-mail, web surfing or any other data.
ReplyDeleteAnd this surprises you because?
Its not the surveillance, its the lawbreaking.
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteSame here - the phone companies handed the information over, but the Government then actively used it to record it, maintain it, use it for whatever they used it for.
Regardless of who the original tortfeasors were, the statute prohibts the "dissemination" of such information. And if the gummint di that (which it asmost assuderly did), then they're not off the hook even if they weren't the ones who originally handed it out.
Hell, if the Rethugs want to pursue this line, point them to the MacDermott case....
Cheers,
shargash:
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly the sort of scandal that gets legs. There is lots of video of the administration telling lies. It touches everyone. At 31%, Bush just doesn't have enough friends left who matter to be able to deflect it.
WSJ latest sez 29%!
Cheers,
John Gabriel:
ReplyDeleteGlenn, I'm a a little confused here.
Does FISA apply to purely domestic calls?
Yes. See 50 USC 1801(f). It is intended to apply to surveillance conducted within the United States, or whic targets "U.S. persons". It was passed in response to the massive domestic spying that reached its culmination under Nixon, and which provoked a strong outcry when revealed by the Church commission and the Pike hearings in the late '70s.
OTOH, communications between foreigners intercepted abround are subject to neither FISA nor the Fourth Amendment. All's fair there ... if the NSA can manage to do it without getting strafed and torpedoed (USS Liberty, 1967), machine-gunned and captured (USS Pueblo, 1968), or shot down (as were many CIA/NSA spy planes including Power's U-2 and a frighteningly large number of other such planes during the cold war).
Cheers,
anonymous: "It is obvious technical clues that would point to actual criminal behaviour by NSA are being discounted too early. Glenn please don't discount the input of technical people in this issue."
ReplyDeleteGlenn, count me amongst the techs who say the NSA is unlikely to be collecting this data without the use of some type of pen register technology.
The most likely is a monitoring device attached to the network backbone switches in major cities and other choke points for each of the telcos known to be involved so far.
P.S. Anyone thinking they are safe from this monitoring, or can avoid it, by way of dealing with a non-participating telco, is deluding themselves. Whether or not your provider is working with the NSA, all your call has to do is pass through the network of a participating telco for the NSA to capture the call record data.
Government lawyers are saying that we all said it is okay for them to spy on us and monitor our phone calls and telecommunication. According to the WaPo (via RawSotry):
ReplyDeleteOne government lawyer who has participated in negotiations with telecommunications providers said the Bush administration has argued that a company can turn over its entire database of customer records -- and even the stored content of calls and e-mails -- because customers "have consented to that" when they establish accounts. The fine print of many telephone and Internet service contracts includes catchall provisions, the lawyer said, authorizing the company to disclose such records to protect public safety or national security, or in compliance with a lawful government request.
"It is within their terms of service because you have consented to that," the lawyer said. If the company also consents, "and they do it voluntarily, the U.S. government can accept it."
john gabriel: Anyone thinking they are safe from this monitoring, or can avoid it, by way of dealing with a non-participating telco, is deluding themselves. Whether or not your provider is working with the NSA, all your call has to do is pass through the network of a participating telco for the NSA to capture the call record data.
ReplyDeleteJohn, Isn't this because all baby bells still use the basic infrastructure that existed before the break-up of Ma Bell? That is, Sprint, for example, has no infrastructure for its call system--it routes all calls through hubs owned by the former Ma Bell. Ma Bell must allow this by federal statute.
HWSNBN is ignorant:
ReplyDeleteThat is easy. The pen register statute bars the government itself from using a pen register device to collect this data. However, there is nothing in the statute which bars the government from using any other means to gather this data such as requesting telecom companies voluntarily provide their business records.
The CALEA equipment currently mandated by law to implement both Title III and "trap'n'trace" wiretaps is installed by the telcos and is administered and operated by them. It is their legal departments (or designated employees) that take the warrant in hand, and who set up the "call data" or "call content" surveillances.
So HWSNBN's dissembling about the "gummint itself ... using a pen register device" is outdated. And wrong.
Cheers,
John Gabriel said...
ReplyDelete"P.S. Anyone thinking they are safe from this monitoring, or can avoid it, by way of dealing with a non-participating telco, is deluding themselves. Whether or not your provider is working with the NSA, all your call has to do is pass through the network of a participating telco for the NSA to capture the call record data."
It isn't a matter of feeling safer. It is making a point to the telcos that such behavior is not appreciated, by rewarding the one that resisted by declining with your business and taking it away from those that did.
HWSNBN dissembles further in support of his Fuehrer-In-Chief:
ReplyDelete[Glenn]: "Contents," when used with respect to a communication, includes any information concerning the identity of the parties to such communication or the existence, substance, purport, or meaning of that communication
Given that the business records turned over by the telecom companies have no such content information about who is using the telephone or the contents of the conversation, FISA is not implicated.
HWSNBN leaves out Glenn's emphasis. I added it back in, with a few more choice words. "Any information". You know, like who the phone belongs to? And any information about "the existence ... of that communication" pretty much seals the case.
While one might argue about whther "normal business records" are in fact immune from Fourth Amendment restrictions in all cases (I don't think you can make a compelling case that this is so), it doesn't matter here. When the law specifically prohibits such snoops, this trumps any common law "normal business records" practice common to civil suits.
Cheers,
HWSNBN assumes his conclusion:
ReplyDeleteIf the courts have universally held that Article II provides the power to conduct warantless intellience gathering of the content of electronic communications, ....
And if pigs could fly, we'd all need heavy-duty umbrellas to protect us from all the shite flying around.
Cheers,
HWSNBN continues the propaganda s**tstorm:
ReplyDeleteIf anyone here is interested in how the NSA analyzes the telephone business records it has received from telecom companies, NPR just interviewed an expert who has written about data mining techniques.
He is speculating...
Thanks. All we ned to know.
But FWIW, the laws prohibiting such don't make any distinctions as to the uses made of the information.
Cheers,
Again, there seems to be some confusion here about what a pen register or is not. The definition that makes sense to me is the following (from a comment at Obsidian Wings):
ReplyDeleteIf the former, it violates the federal "pen register" statute, a pen register being a "device or process which records or decodes dialing, routing, addressing, or signaling information transmitted by an instrument or facility from which a wire or electronic communication is transmitted."
Now what does the splitter that the ATT installed in their secret NSA site but a "device"? It's a device that "records or decodes dialing, routing, addressing, or signaling information".
What am I missing here?
For if the device installed at the secret NSA ATT site is a pen register, then it violates legal statutes when "The Department of Justice has been required for some time to report to Congress the number of pen registers and trap-and-traces," but "in recent years [PDF, see question 10] it declared that information classified."
In other words, the DoJ knows that they are using pen registers, know that it's illegal and therefore are not reporting them.
HWSNBN lies:
ReplyDeleteFISA concerns ONLY surveillance of the CONTENT of electronic communications.
The troll HWSNBN ignores 50 USC 1841 et.seq.
Imagine that from a person who thinks he ought to be teaching me ConLaw.
Lies, lies, lies. All in defence of Der Fuehrer.
Cheers,
Important article re: new movie
ReplyDeleteSophie Scholl: The Final Days, a true story.
The German Anti-War Movement, 1943
Yet the most unsettling scene in Sophie Scholl is not the interrogation or the show trial or the execution by guillotine.
No, the most disturbing moment comes when Sophie is read her indictment. Her distribution of mimeographed pamphlets, says the prosecutor, is an act of “troop demoralization and aiding the enemy.” It is a “crime against our hard-fighting troops.”
That is when this film should hit home with American audiences. Or at least with those who are not mere puppets.
Meanwhile I wish Marty Lederman would make friends with Jonathan Turley.
Jonathan says he has looked for a day but cannot find any "authority" for AT&T, etc. turning over those records to the government.
He said it's become clear this government is not going to investigate itself and it controls those who would do any investigation, including security clearances. He was on Countdown with Keith Olberman.
He hopes people will sue the telecoms, he said.
Me too. Dump the stock. We should organize a national dumping of those three telephone companies' stock and it's a good business move also. By the time they finish paying for lawyers in all the upcoming actions their bottom lines are not going to look all that good.
Buy Quest instead.
Which reminds me, way to go Working Assets! That's great about joining in on that ACLU suit. Terrific.
Can't wait to get Hillary's "parsed word" statement on this matter. I'm sure she is "shocked, shocked" at the whole matter.
Then she had to leave the room, go over to Rupert's and join Carville, Matelin, Begala and George Soros in listening to some of the more juicy AT&T conversations before Rupert has to turn them over to the National Enquirer.
As far as all these laws, statutes, pen registers, etc?
This "Dictatorship" has very deep roots, probably going all the way back to the time when Orwell wrote 1984.
In recent years, our Government, both parties, all branches, have been gearing up for it.
Just because it has now reached mushroom cloud visibility, it doesn't mean it hasn't been on the drawing boards for a long, long time.
Who put all these pen register laws, statutes, electronic surveillance blah blah blah blah on the books?
The bad guys.
Now you want to talk about how we have to turn over the country to a Dictatorship because we have to allow the laws the bad guys wrote to trump the Constitution?
I think we have to go back to the Fourth Amendment. That's what this is all about, not pen registers.
The Spook in Your Phone
Gen. Michael V. Hayden, nominated by President Bush to head the CIA, is the man responsible for the most extensive attack ever on the privacy of US citizens......
Yet this assault on our freedom was never disclosed to the public, debated by our elected representatives or tested by the courts. Most disturbing is the revelation by USA Today that leading members of Congress--Democrats as well as Republicans--had been told of this ghastly assault on our freedom but did nothing to thwart it. They must now be held accountable.
John Gabriel said...
ReplyDelete"P.S. Anyone thinking they are safe from this monitoring, or can avoid it, by way of dealing with a non-participating telco, is deluding themselves. Whether or not your provider is working with the NSA, all your call has to do is pass through the network of a participating telco for the NSA to capture the call record data."
An addition to my other post:
It isn't a matter of feeling safer. It is making a point to the telcos that such behavior is not appreciated, by rewarding the one that resisted by declining with your business and taking it away from those that did.
That is until Bush and Congress fix it so that we have to spend our money as they see fit:
"Tuesday 09 May 2006
Congress wants to change the Internet.
This is news to most people because the major news media have not actively pursued the story. Yet both the House and Senate commerce committees are promoting new rules governing the manner by which most Americans receive the Web. Congressional passage of new rules is widely anticipated, as is President Bush's signature. Once this happens, the Internet will change before your eyes.
Currently, your Internet provider does not voluntarily censor the Web as it enters your home. This levels the playing field between the tiniest blog and the most popular Web site.
Yet the big telecom companies want to alter this dynamic. AT&T and Verizon have publicly discussed their plans to divide the information superhighway into separate fast and slow lanes. Web sites and services willing to pay a toll will be channeled through the fast lane, while all others will be bottled up in the slower lanes. COPE, and similar telecom legislation offered in the Senate, does nothing to protect the consumer from this transformation of the Internet.
By giving the telecoms the ability to harness your Web surfing, the government will empower them to shake down the most profitable Web companies. These companies will sell access to you, to Amazon.com, Travelocity.com and even BaltimoreSun.com, etc. What if these companies elect not to pay? Then, when you type in "amazon.com," you might be redirected to barnesandnoble.com, or your lightning-quick DSL Internet service might suddenly move at horse-and-buggy speed."
Via I Cite:
ReplyDeletef you've been waiting until the Christian fascist movement started filling stadiums with young people and hyping them up to do battle in "God's army" to get alarmed, wait no longer.
In recent weeks, Battle Cry, a Christian fundamentalist youth movement, has attracted more than 25,000 to mega-rally rock concerts in San Francisco and Detroit and this weekend they plan to fill Wachovia Stadium in Philadelphia.
They claim their religion and values are under attack but, amidst spectacular lightshows, hummers, Navy Seals, and military imagery on stage, it is Battle Cry that has declared war on everyone else! Their leader, Ron Luce, insists: "This is war. And Jesus invites us to get into the action, telling us that the violent--the 'forceful' ones--will lay hold of the kingdom."
Is it possible that this is legal to have the military show up an event like this? I guess if the Blue Abgels can fly overhead for the Twins, then why not have Seals snorkeling for Jesus, huh?
northerner says:
ReplyDelete18 U.S.C. 2702 doesn't apply to phone calls, does it? That statute applies only to "electronic communications services," a term that is defined to include "any transfer of signs, signals, writing, images, sounds, data, or intelligence," but NOT "oral communication."
Better trolls, please. First time that I've ever heard someone claim that "oral communication" doens't consist of "sounds".
*sheesh* Are they all this stoopid???
Cheers,
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete“Given that another government agency — the IRS — maintains information on American citizens’ employment, banking, investments, mortgages, charitable contributions and even any declared medical expenses, this hardly seems like a major assault on personal liberty.” Ooh! Shocking new report! The IRS has a database with your personal information in it! That story is just waiting to be discovered."
Shorter anonymous glibertarian:
Shove a microscope up my ass! I don't care! Just let me keep my money!
the cynic librarian said...
ReplyDelete"Is it possible that this is legal to have the military show up an event like this? I guess if the Blue Abgels can fly overhead for the Twins, then why not have Seals snorkeling for Jesus, huh?"
Bush doesn't recognize any separation between Church and State.
This is just another one of his faith based initiatives. :-)
the cynic librarian said...
ReplyDeleteGovernment lawyers are saying that we all said it is okay for them to spy on us and monitor our phone calls and telecommunication. According to the WaPo (via RawSotry):
One government lawyer who has participated in negotiations with telecommunications providers said the Bush administration has argued that a company can turn over its entire database of customer records -- and even the stored content of calls and e-mails -- because customers "have consented to that" when they establish accounts. The fine print of many telephone and Internet service contracts includes catchall provisions, the lawyer said, authorizing the company to disclose such records to protect public safety or national security, or in compliance with a lawful government request.
"It is within their terms of service because you have consented to that," the lawyer said. If the company also consents, "and they do it voluntarily, the U.S. government can accept it."
That is fascism.
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDelete"Better trolls, please. First time that I've ever heard someone claim that "oral communication" doens't consist of "sounds".
*sheesh* Are they all this stoopid???"
LOL Haven't you heard, they all have become mimes and lip sync to the sounds of silence. :-)
bart said...
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
Facists like Bart prove the point. There is nothing they won't do to assault your freedoms.
Ah, the usual retort of a leftist when he runs out of intellectual ammunition - which is usually pretty quick - they call you a Nazi.
He called you a fascist. There are many kinds of fascism who aren't Nazis and have nothing at all to do with Nazism beyond an affinity for like minded political ecomomies. You are a fascist, Bart. And we haven't run out of ammunition. You give us plenty each day. Fortunately for you, so far it's just the kind of ammunition that doesn't end the debate, stat!
Northerner said...
ReplyDelete[phd9]: Northerer... Last time I checked oral communication was "sound"
Follow the links. The statute SPECIFICALLY says that it doesn't apply to "oral communication." That's not my phrase, it's what the statute says.
Ummm, "oral communication" doesn't appear at all on your first link (18 USC 2701 et.seq.). So where you get the idea it "SPECIFICALLY says it doesn't apply to 'oral communications'" is somewhat beyond me.
Second, 18 USC 2510 (your second link) distinguishes between "wire communication" and "oral communication", but primarily for purposes of defining which "oral communications" are subject to the law. In this case, "oral communications" would be, for example, two people talking in a room with a bug or directional mic recording their conversations. But the definition of "wire communication" here is:
"'wire communication' means any aural transfer..."
Go look up "aural" and get back to us afterwards.
If it's any help, you might try to distinguish between stored (possibly audio) records (addressed in some detail in 18 USC 2701 et.seq.), and real-time delivery of oral content, but that wouldn't help you much either; seeing as we're not talking about call content here WRT the NSA/telco snoops, that's irrelevant. The CDRs are stored records.
Cheers,
the cynic librarian said...
ReplyDelete"Is it possible that this is legal to have the military show up an event like this? I guess if the Blue Abgels can fly overhead for the Twins, then why not have Seals snorkeling for Jesus, huh?"
I'm ready to take them on, too with any kind of ammunition they'd like to use.
Is it fascism yet?
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN dissembles:
ReplyDelete[Bart, originally]: No it does not. FISA concerns ONLY surveillance of the CONTENT of electronic communications.
[jao]:You are quite wrong.
FISA includes an entire subchapter, SUBCHAPTER III - PEN REGISTERS AND TRAP AND TRACE DEVICES FOR FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE PURPOSES, devoted to acquisition of the non-content information such as phone numbers.
There is no allegation that the government is using a pen register to obtain this information. FISA does not address the voluntary provision of this information by a third party.
Irrelevant even if it were true. The troll HWSNBN is still wrong. FISA (as both "jao" and I have quite accurately pointed out) does apply to call data (i.e. "pen register" taps) as well as content surveillance. HWSNBN claimed that it applied "ONLY" to the latter (as is clear from his statement above).
HWSNBN is an ignorant buffoon or a liar (or both).
Cheers,
Good article by GG on alternet.
ReplyDeleteA comment in response to GG's article wrote:
Want to be truly revolutionary? Blog for a return to true laizzes-faire, blog for a return to a true free market, blog for a return to the constitutional REPUBLIC, not democracy! Blog for individual liberty and personal responsibility, not government programs and handouts. If our current government officials are so corrupt, what makes you think your Democrats or Greens are going to be any different?
Hey! There's another one out there.
That's comforting. Of course, as BJT observes, those views are the really revolutionary ones on the Blogosphere.
So far.
I don't think most Americans care if it is against the law, or even if it's not unconstitutional. They want it to be. Against the law, illegal and unconstitutional. And they don't trust this administration to do anything right, least of all catch terrorists or protect us from them. These fascists had a little pitchfork and torches action going right after 9/11. That's understandable, it caught most Americans up in the moment. Those days are over. The feeling among the population, both left, right and center is that if this kind of thing isn't illegal and unconstitutional, we damn well want it to be. Period.
ReplyDeleteThat should read
ReplyDeleteI don't think most Americans care if it isn't against the law,
Eyes WIde Open said... @ 3:50 AM ...
ReplyDeleteSweet Jesus! Give it a rest! That kind of wingnutism is what got us here. Does nothing ever penetrate your thick skull.
President Bush's Ratings Hit New Low, Poll Shows (WSJ: 29%)
ReplyDeletePS. "anon": Sorry, I do not respond to imperative statements. That's what got us here in the first place.
Imperative statements
An imperative statement indicates an unconditional action to be taken (such as ADD, MOVE, INVOKE, or CLOSE ---or GIVE IT A REST).
PS. "anon": Sorry, I do not respond to imperative statements. That's what got us here in the first place.
ReplyDeleteImperative statements
An imperative statement indicates an unconditional action to be taken (such as ADD, MOVE, INVOKE, or CLOSE ---or GIVE IT A REST).
This is a response. They don't come much denser than you, do they?
Shorter(very short) EWO...
ReplyDeleteA vehicle is speeding towrds him at 80mph... (in imperative statement if there ever was one). He stands there defiantly, saying,(in response), "Sorry, I do not respond to imperative statements."
Goodnight EWO, sleep well when you do get to sleep. :)
Perhaps I should have said stubborn instead, or as well, but let me leave you with this thought. Bush does not "respond" to imperative statements either. Like laws and constitutional prohibitions. Perhaps that is what has gotten us here as well. I am as cranky, sulky, stubborn and petulant as the next guy, but I don't come anywhere near close to Bush in that way. You just might. I'm out. :)
ReplyDeleteBesides coming to this blog to read Glenn's exceptional commentary I find a lot of the people that comment here have a lot of knowledge to share as well. But for the life of me there's one thing that I can't figure out. Why would people that are so intelligent waste their time arguing with a couple of the obvious trolls?
ReplyDeleteFWIW -- Someone over at Kos just told me that they had seen ads on Craigslist from the RNC to hire people to specifically write commentary on democratic blogs.
You don't suppose that old bart is one of those do you?
This may be a stupid question, but nevertheless I'd like an answer.
ReplyDeleteWhy do I need the ACLU of EFF? Can I just go down to my local police station and make out a complaint that " The Stored Communications Act prohibits the telephone companies from disclosing such information to the government unless they receive a subpoena or a court order for the records. 18 U.S.C. 2702(c), 2703 (c)." and that I have reason to believe that someone has done that with my phone records without a FISA warrent?
These are my phone records right.
Obviously, if I did that. If one person did that, it might not make a difference but if every customer of phone companies that are not Qwest did that, well then that might be something.
Ender said ...
ReplyDeleteNaaa it doesn't. To EWO and her friends places like Somalia look like heaven. No government to hassle them and all...
That is one modern nightmare scenario froma different culture, but we have historical examples in our own, culture and history...He should see how capitalism is working in Red China now. Much like this account, so clearly capitalism is, as we keep telling him, nothing but an economic system. I'll bet he's never tried to run a business or corporation on his sanctified "laissez faire" principles. It doesn't work.
The Ultimate Reality Show
The brutal history of Virginia Company,
“a prison without walls” (1607-1624)
How’s this for a prime time concept? Take a few dozen British gentlemen, the type who like to search for gold and challenge each other to duels, but who have never done anything useful or practical in their lives. Make sure each brings along one or two footmen to powder his wig, shine his buckles, and prepare his afternoon tea. Add a few specialized workers, such as jewelers and glassmakers, and a few with more down-to-earth skillsbut just a few. Then fill up the rest of a ship with half-starved street vagabonds, poor children, the widows of executed thieves, and various petty criminals. Transport the group across the Atlantic Ocean and drop it off on some land under the control of a preexisting nation of indigenous people. Check back in a few years’ time and count how many people are still alive. That, in a nutshell, describes the dismal story of the Jamestown colony, the one and only business venture of the London-based Virginia Company.
Timetogether,
ReplyDeleteWhy do I need the ACLU of EFF? Can I just go down to my local police station and make out a complaint that " The Stored Communications Act prohibits the telephone companies from disclosing such information to the government unless they receive a subpoena or a court order for the records. 18 U.S.C. 2702(c), 2703 (c)." and that I have reason to believe that someone has done that with my phone records without a FISA warrent?
They will tell you it's a civil matter, which it is. Your best bet is to organize as many people as possible to flood the local small claims courts all over the country with nuisance suits against the Telcos. This method was used quite effectively against slumlords who owned crack houses and refused to do anything about them. Sometimes, for whatever reason, the actions of the local police just dealt with individual bad actors, but never addressed the underlying problem, that being an unscrupulous landlord was getting 5 times market value rent for a house that wasn't fit to live in. There's that wondeful laissez faire capitalism at work again.
As long as EWO is anti-corporate, (and I think he is getting there, seeing the telcos as a threat to his liberty, and rightly so), I can go along with the idea of the laissez faire principles with respect to the relationship between government and the individual man or woman and even his or her small business, to a lesser degree.
ReplyDeleteWhy the Colonists Feared Corporations
(...)
To a surprisingly degree, the American Revolution was directly and explicitly an anti-corporate revolt. Part of the backdrop for that revolt were the long-standing anti-corporate sentiments among lower class people such as indentured servants and conscript sailors. In the eighteenth century, following with the legislative suppression of corporate enterprise in Britain after the Bubble Act of 1719, anti-corporate views also became common among both French and English intellectuals, and some of those thinkers influenced cosmopolitan Americans such as Benjamin Franklin. Among British and French thinkers, corporate enterprise was considered synonymous with monopolya way for privileged elites to profit at the expense of the general public. This aspect of anti-corporate sentiment was a pervasive theme in Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations. Smith wrote, “People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or some contrivance to raise prices.”
Why the Colonists Feared Corporations
ReplyDeleteIn which the citizens of Boston demonstrate the use of the hatchet as an anti-monopoly device (1770-1773)
Thousands and thousands of small claims actions filed against the telcos, in conjunction with the actions by the ACLU and EFF, no matter how frivolous or hopeless, would send a clear message, and in cases where a judge found merit, and there may be many of those, there wouldn't be enough corporate lawyers to go around. And most corporate lawyers have less of a clue about the small claims laws, courts and procedures, than you or I. No lawyers allowed. A representative of the Telco, probably an attorney, would have to appear on their behalf. Remember to name the top guy, the CEO, as a defendant. Nolo Press has books on the small claims procedures. Before Bushco, there were small claims clinics offered by your local and municipal courts. It would be like a modern day Boston Tea party.
Poll: Most Americans Support NSA's Efforts
ReplyDeleteBy Richard Morin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 12, 2006; 7:00 AM
A majority of Americans initially support a controversial National Security Agency program to collect information on telephone calls made in the United States in an effort to identify and investigate potential terrorist threats, according to a Washington Post-ABC News poll.
The new survey found that 63 percent of Americans said they found the NSA program to be an acceptable way to investigate terrorism, including 44 percent who strongly endorsed the effort. Another 35 percent said the program was unacceptable, which included 24 percent who strongly objected to it.
A slightly larger majority--66 percent--said they would not be bothered if NSA collected records of personal calls they had made, the poll found.
Underlying those views is the belief that the need to investigate terrorism outweighs privacy concerns. According to the poll, 65 percent of those interviewed said it was more important to investigate potential terrorist threats "even if it intrudes on privacy." Three in 10--31 percent--said it was more important for the federal government not to intrude on personal privacy, even if that limits its ability to investigate possible terrorist threats.
Half--51 percent--approved of the way President Bush was handling privacy matters.
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/12/AR2006051200375_pf.html
the cynic librarian said...
ReplyDeleteGlenn, I think you are dead wrong about the pen registers not being used. Where's that information come from? According to Slashdot, this is exactly how this type of collection is done:
Traditionally, the devices which record dialed phone numbers are called pen registers, and trap-and-trace devices. The ECPA provided some legal privacy protection. It was controversial when Section 214 of the Patriot Act amended 50 USC 1842 to allow the FBI to record this information with minimal oversight. The Department of Justice has been required for some time to report to Congress the number of pen registers and trap-and-traces, though in recent years [PDF, see question 10] it declared that information classified.
I'd be interested in knowing where you get the idea that pen registers aren't in play here.
bart: There is no allegation that the government is using a pen register to obtain this information.
Where do you get this information from? See my previous posting to this one. There it is explicitly stated by tech folks that it is exactly pen registers that are required to perform this type of snoopin. Please provide a citation and web site that contradicts this information.
The telecom companies themselves (not the government) collect this information in the regular course of their business for billing purposes.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteGris Lobo said...
ReplyDeletebart said..."The perhaps vain hope I can talk one or two of you back from the precipice of turning your backs completely on your country in a time of war."
So what you are saying Bart is that we should all bow before Bush and trust him to do the right thing.
For once and for all, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BUSH!
For the sake of this argument, I will agree with you that Bush is the wort president of this or any other time and should be impeached, hung, drawn and quartered.
Imagine that any Donkey of your choice is now President for life and the Elephant party has been outlawed.
NOW, let's get back to how to best to fight this war against a mortal enemy who wants to murder you and I and our families.
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDelete[Glenn]: "Contents," when used with respect to a communication, includes any information concerning the identity of the parties to such communication or the existence, substance, purport, or meaning of that communication
Bart: Given that the business records turned over by the telecom companies have no such content information about who is using the telephone or the contents of the conversation, FISA is not implicated.
HWSNBN leaves out Glenn's emphasis. I added it back in, with a few more choice words. "Any information". You know, like who the phone belongs to? And any information about "the existence ... of that communication" pretty much seals the case.
Try reading for content...
"Contents," when used with respect to a communication...
These business records are not referring to the content of any communication. They do not identify the person who owns the number, the person making the call, the person receiving the call or anything about the contents of the call.
PhD9 said...
ReplyDeletebart...Thank you for your prompt reply. Now I can see clearly both what divides us ands what we have in common. The problem as I see it (and again I'm just some shmoe) is that we have failed to properly identify what we mean by the word enemy. 14 lunatics in the employ of Osama Bin Laden attacked us on Sept 11 and shocked us with the realization that the "sole remaining superpower" wasn't invulnerable to attack.
No, our self declared enemies who declared war on us back in the 90s are not limited to the 19 or so men directly carrying out the 9/11 attack or even their small number of other coconspirators.
This is an ideological and religious war waged by a network of Islamic fascist organizations against the United States in particular and western civilization in general.
We need to stop thinking of this as a criminal justice matter. I think that is a major problem in our differences in how we interpret the NSA programs.
Most here look at this as a matter of theoretical rights of criminal defendants. I look at this as intelligence gathering to wage a war. In a war, we can legally hunt down and kill the enemy by all means fair and foul. Therefore, I hardly give a second thought to their privacy rights.
Likewise, many here and in the press think of this as yet another political skirmish in which leaking classified intelligence collection programs is simply another way of scoring harmless political points. To me, we are disclosing intelligence collection to an enemy who has demonstrated that it seeks to kill you and I. This is not harmless, it endangers lives.
If you want to talk about gas prices, we can compromise because in the end that kind of issue is a nuisance and not important in any meaningful way.
However, we are now talking about a war in which the enemy is giving no quarter and worships death. A war in which the enemy talks about needing to kill a million Americans to make up for imagined sins of this country. A war in which the enemy is seeking WMD to fulfill that goal.
Consequently, this is a war in which we need to use all means fair and foul in our disposal to stop and defeat the enemy so long as there is not a demonstrable, clear and present harm to our own people.
If you already have not seen this documentary, I strongly recommend that you see Inside 9/11 by National Geographic. The first episode details the origins and plans of al Qaeda and the larger Islamic fascist movement hilighted by actual audio tape of their speeches, which are reminiscent of European fascism.
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/inside911/
Then go see United 93. Maybe these will refocus you.
Bart... NOW, let's get back to how to best to fight this war against a mortal enemy who wants to murder you and I and our families.
ReplyDelete10:36 AM
Bart,
You said you commanded a platoon in GWI. I don't know what unit, or even what your MOS was, but would this mortal enemy you speak of, who wants to murder us all, be like the thousands of surrendering Iraqi troops you may have encountered, who had nothing but their underwear to use a white flag? If you don't mind, Bart, I'll wait until they have invasion forces off the beach, and a navy to get them there, before I get mu panties in a wad, like you have. An army is the wrong tool to use to stop a nuke coming into the country. And if you knew anything about crime and policing and crime control, the best method to use to prevent such a criminal act, which is what it is, is target hardening, not eavsdropping on anyone.
An army is the wrong tool to use to stop a nuke coming into the country. And if you knew anything about crime and policing and crime control, the best method to use to prevent such a criminal act, which is what it is, is target hardening, not eavsdropping on anyone.
ReplyDeleteLet me clarify that. An army in Iraq stirring up a hornet's nest of hatred is the wrong tool to use to stop a nuke( which they don't have yet) from coming into the country. Or bio, or chem, or a dirty bomb. And if you knew anything about crime and policing and crime control, the best method to use to prevent such a criminal act, which is what it is, is target hardening, as in, inspecting the containers at the ports, and keeping the borders secure. Perhaps a better foreign policy with respect to the ME is the best protection we could have, because, like it or not, Israel will not likely survive as it is. Eavsdropping on anyone won't do a damn bit of good. It didn't stop 9/11. It won't stop anything else. You love the Godfather. All repugs do.
"If anything in this life is certain, if history has taught us anything, it is that you can kill anyone."
Michael Corleone
Listening alone has never stopped anything. Awake, Aware, and don't present a soft target.
owenz said...
ReplyDeleteI have a simple question: what does NSA do when the data mining program indicates a terrorist threat in a domestic call?
You raise good questions and I don't have an answer for you beyond this. We have no way of preventing every attempt of another such attack. They cannot stop them in Israel, and they do all the same things we do, and more. Our government knows this. Can you imagine them saying this? It would be refreshingly honest, but I can't either. I think the reason our current administration is doing this is purely politics. It's Nixon on technological steroids. The real threat to this country is here from within. Not from without.
From Bart at 10:44AM:
ReplyDelete"This is an ideological and religious war waged by a network of Islamic fascist organizations against the United States in particular and western civilization in general."
Leaving aside the small fact Al Qaeda isn't an organization per se (at least not since the botched job done in Afghanistan and the Iraqi invasion) and more of a diffuse movement, and its more theological in orientation than political, I'd say you've *finally* got the point I've been hammering all this time. Congratulations.
Now, if you could just wrap your head around the small fact that (a) you literally *can't* shoot an idea, meaning conventional military force is pretty much useless, that (b) Al Qaeda and its fellow travellers have shown themselves to be smart enough to infiltrate the US and other countries and operate undetected until they're ready to strike, meaning conventional surveillence like this program is next to useless, and that (c) the network itself has shown great patience and ingenuity in its operations, meaning the fact we haven't seen another massive attack here in the States or elsewhere is *no* real indication there isn't another one coming or that we're any safer today than we were before.
Still, congratulations on your epiphany. You might actually be finally getting a grasp of the real nature of the enemy.
One of the more disturbing aspects of this NSA scandal is that it's led to few, if any, real leads to terrorists.
ReplyDeleteI commented on this to my wife last evening as this whole thing was rolling on Olbermann. With all this illegal domestic spying, all the violations of civil and Constitutional Rights this Administration purposely enacts simply to seize what they consider the "proper power of the executive taken away by those who whined about Nixon's activities", I cannot think of ANY arrests made. I cannot think of a single terror cell having been broken up. Nothing. All this shit and there's jackshit to show for it after 6 years (the spying started before 9/11, merely expanding afterwards). If they HAD nailed one or a few terror cells, they would have broadcast that all over the place as a means of winning points and support. Instead, nothing at all.
The whole thing is an abomination and is just as bad, if not worse, than all that Nixon did.
Not to mention, and adding to what yankee said much better than I could, another strike against us now would not serve OBL's purpose. I would be one of the first among you Bart, to say find out who and where and drop the hammer on them so hard, they never got up. I truly think we are safe as long as we are divided and destroying our own country like this, driven as we are by the vocal minority of extremists like you, Bart. I am never quite sure if OBL is just a lucky bumbler, like Bush has always been an unlucky one, or Allah really does love him more than God loves Bush, or a brilliant fucking guy. I'll know if he strikes us again because then he truly would be a moron. It would end this debate and spell the end of his movement. Bart just wants to commit genocide. He wants to go on a crusade. He was just born a 1000 years too late. As Bonaparte said..."Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
ReplyDeleteOr when he is doing exactly what you want him to do. A sensible policy in the ME is long overdue, and not a capitulation.
To put it bluntly, we are no longer safe because America's foreign policy since the end of WWII has been an abject failure.
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN sez:
ReplyDeletePoll: Most Americans Support NSA's Efforts
By Richard Morin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 12, 2006; 7:00 AM
A majority of Americans initially support a controversial National Security Agency program to collect information on telephone calls made in the United States in an effort to identify and investigate potential terrorist threats, according to a Washington Post-ABC News poll.
...
The article said:
A total of 502 randomly selected adults were interviewed Thursday night for this survey.
Did anyone ask them if they'd "read the news today [i.e., that day]"?
And the poll itself says:
The practical difficulties of doing a survey in a single evening represent other potential sources of error in this or any other overnight poll.
29%! Mars, bitches!
Cheers,
I thought I was safe from all this telespying because I am not serviced by the criminal organizations of AT&T, Verizon, Bell South. I'm in the sticks and am serviced by a boondock rural phone company. My long distance service is from MCI, not mentioned in the list of criminal co-conspirators...except that I went to MCI's website and find that they've partnered up with Verizon. Now I have to assume that MCI is in this just as deep as Verizon is.
ReplyDeleteI've written to MCI asking them to clarify their position and actions in this regard. I would encourage all of you to contact your phone companies to demand answers. They must be made to sweat this out.
On NPR yesterday, during a story about this whole mess, the person (can't recall who it was) being interviewed about this indicated that the phone companies are liable for something like $100,000 for each and every unauthorized release of this information. Which law stipulates this fine? I'd like to contact a lawyer to help feed the fear into MCI if for no other reason than to get them to NEVER play along with the NSA without a valid court order. If I could, I'd switch to Qwest in a heartbeat.
arne: [quoting WaPo] A total of 502 randomly selected adults were interviewed Thursday night for this survey.
ReplyDeleteThe margin of error must've been big as well. Typically, a representative poll will have a thousand or more participants.
American Dominatrix
ReplyDeleteWe're scaring the world – and they hate us for it
It seems to me that a nation where phone calls between private citizens are listened to and collected by a government agency is hardly one to brag about how it's going to bring the benefits of "democracy" and "freedom" to the rest of the world. Yet that hasn't stopped the U.S. from seeking to "export" its brand of corporate statism to the far corners of the globe, either by force or by less direct forms of coercion.
HWSNBN is wilfully obtuse [or it it just incurably stoopid?]:
ReplyDelete[Glenn]: "Contents," when used with respect to a communication, includes any information concerning the identity of the parties to such communication or the existence, substance, purport, or meaning of that communication
[Bart, from before]: Given that the business records turned over by the telecom companies have no such content information about who is using the telephone or the contents of the conversation, FISA is not implicated.
[Arne]: HWSNBN leaves out Glenn's emphasis. I added it back in, with a few more choice words. "Any information". You know, like who the phone belongs to? And any information about "the existence ... of that communication" pretty much seals the case.
[Arne]: Try reading for content...
"Contents," when used with respect to a communication...
Yes, and telephone calls are such "communication[s]". And the law Glenn cited defines "contents" not as the Title III "call content", but rather includes what is traditionally called "call data". Now, granted, that law is not FISA, but if HWSNBN is trying to hint that FISA is some kind of exception or defence to a violation of this law, he should look at the sections of FISA that concern "call data" and see that even here, a court order is required.
These business records are not referring to the content of any communication. They do not identify the person who owns the number, the person making the call, the person receiving the call or anything about the contents of the call.
The law in question, cited by Glenn, defines "contents", for purposes of that law, as above. That includes records "identify[ing] the person who owns the number", and "any information" about even the "existence" of the call, meaning obviously, amongst other things, records that show the call being placed.
Cheers,
cynic librarian:
ReplyDelete[Arne, quoting WaPo]: A total of 502 randomly selected adults were interviewed Thursday night for this survey.
The margin of error must've been big as well. Typically, a representative poll will have a thousand or more participants.
+/- 4%, rather than the more common 3%. The procedural difficulties in finding a random sample on a single night might add more error than just sample size.
Cheers,
The NSA boondoggle just doesn't work. It's money, peoplehours, and resources, pissed down a rat hole. And it undermines the social fabric by promoting a climate of fear and suspicion.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Defense Tech, updating a rebuttal to a critique of the possibility of finding terrorists using the method currently underway in the NSA vaccuum-sucking spying program on Americans:
"I find it almost impossible to believe that the NSA has a system good enough to beat human int[elligence], selective tapping, and the kind of progressive extension that Krebs cites," an MIT professor says, who also passes along this handy graphic.
"... There may never be a way of discerning relationship based on a single modality of communication. That's why most of the people I know are using millions of other sensors, like GPS, accelerometers, recording the voice, reading heart rate, etc. Then they may be able to say with moderate certainty that they can tell something from phone calls. The NSA can't do that with what USA Today says they're collecting."
New USA Today story:
ReplyDeleteNSA secret database report triggers fierce debate in Washington
Harold Koh, dean of Yale Law School and author of The National Security Constitution, called the scope of the database "quite shocking."
"If they had gone to Congress and said, 'We want to do this without probable cause, without warrants and without judicial review,' it never would have been approved," said Koh, a former law clerk for the late Supreme Court justice Harry Blackmun.
"I don't think any FISA court would have approved this kind of scale of activity."
The issue isn't amending FISA, imo. The issue is that an amended FISA to make legal this type of program violates the spirit of the Fourth Amendment.
Tens of millions of people doesn't imply twenty or thirty million. It could also mean 90 million or more.
All you know by that statement is that it's at least twenty million.
Don't Read this Comment; They're Watching
ReplyDeleteFor those who like their political hard-edged, direct, and muy caliente:
Via I Cite:
The exposure in Thursday’s USA Today of a vast and secret National Security Agency data base tracking the phone calls of hundreds of millions of Americans is further evidence of the advanced preparations for the establishment of a police state in the United States. The NSA database is a blueprint for political repression and intimidation on a massive scale.
The patently illegal government surveillance has nothing to do with preventing terrorist attacks, as claimed by President Bush and echoed by both the media and Democratic Party politicians who criticize various aspects of the program. It has been implemented by a state apparatus which sees its major opposition as coming from among the American people, not scattered bands of Islamic terrorists. At a time of growing social opposition, the government is systematically collecting data to find out what people are thinking and to whom they are talking.
...
Searches of the NSA database could also pinpoint all those who regularly called selected countries overseas, thus generating a list of potential targets for immigration raids. The database could also be used to monitor phone calls made to the media—such as those from the whistleblowers who spoke to the Washington Post about secret CIA torture centers in Eastern Europe or who exposed the illegal NSA monitoring of international phone calls. The White House could also identify government employees who regularly call Democratic members of Congress.
OT, but in the first 12 days of May, 5 more soldiers have died in Iraq than did in all 31 days of March, which month the troll HWSNBN cited as showing a compelling trend, one that showed that his Fuehr... -- ummmm, sorry, "Commander-In-Chief-Of-REMFs-And-You-Too-Bitches -- was winning his "Wah on Terrah", which makes all the usurpations of liberties so worth while.....
ReplyDelete"We had to destroy the village in order to save it."
Cheers,