I just this morning read the obviously significant USA Today article detailing the fact that the NSA is maintaining a comprehensive data base of every call made by every American – both internationally and domestically – whether they have anything to do with terrorism or not, obviously all of this without warrants or oversight of any kind. I'm not going to pretend to have all of the legal issues figured out in two hours, and so I won't yet opine as to whether there are serious grounds for arguing either that this is legal or that it’s illegal.
But there is one highly significant, and revealing, item buried in the USA Today article regarding Qwest's refusal to cooperate with the NSA’s demands (and it heroic refusal to capitulate to the NSA’s intimidation tactics and threats) that it turn over its customers' calling data:
The NSA, which needed Qwest's participation to completely cover the country, pushed back hard.
Trying to put pressure on Qwest, NSA representatives pointedly told Qwest that it was the lone holdout among the big telecommunications companies. It also tried appealing to Qwest's patriotic side: In one meeting, an NSA representative suggested that Qwest's refusal to contribute to the database could compromise national security, one person recalled.
In addition, the agency suggested that Qwest's foot-dragging might affect its ability to get future classified work with the government. Like other big telecommunications companies, Qwest already had classified contracts and hoped to get more.
Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.
The NSA's explanation did little to satisfy Qwest's lawyers. "They told (Qwest) they didn't want to do that because FISA might not agree with them," one person recalled. For similar reasons, this person said, NSA rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from the U.S. attorney general's office. A second person confirmed this version of events.
This theme emerges again and again. We continuously hear that the Bush administration has legal authority to do anything the President orders. Claims that he is acting illegally are just frivolous and the by-product of Bush hatred. And yet, as I detailed here, each and every time the administration has the opportunity to obtain an adjudication of the legality of its conduct from a federal court (which, unbeknownst to the administration, is the branch of our government which has the authority and responsibility to interpret and apply the law), it does everything possible to avoid that adjudication.
This continuous evasion of judicial review by the administration is much more serious and disturbing than has been discussed and realized. By proclaiming the power to ignore Congressional law and to do whatever it wants in the area of national security, it is seizing the powers of the legislative branch. But by blocking courts from ruling on the multiple claims of illegality which have been made against it, the administration is essentially seizing the judicial power as well. It becomes the creator, the executor, and the interpreter of the law. And with that, the powers of all three branches become consolidated in The President, the single greatest nightmare of the founders. As Madison warned in Federalist 47:
From these facts, by which Montesquieu was guided, it may clearly be inferred that, in saying "There can be no liberty where the legislative and executive powers are united in the same person, or body of magistrates," or, "if the power of judging be not separated from the legislative and executive powers," he did not mean that these departments ought to have no partial agency in, or no control over, the acts of each other.
His meaning, as his own words import, and still more conclusively as illustrated by the example in his eye, can amount to no more than this, that where the whole power of one department is exercised by the same hands which possess the whole power of another department, the fundamental principles of a free constitution are subverted. This would have been the case in the constitution examined by him, if the king, who is the sole executive magistrate, had possessed also the complete legislative power, or the supreme administration of justice; or if the entire legislative body had possessed the supreme judiciary, or the supreme executive authority.
The attribute which most singularly defines this administration is its insistence that our Government is based on unilateral and unreviewed Presidential Decree. The President directs the telecom companies to turn over this information and they obey. That’s how our Government works, as they see it. And if the telecom companies are concerned about their legal liability as a result of laws which strongly suggest that they are acting illegally if they comply with the President’s Decree, and thus request a judicial ruling first, that request, too, is denied. There is no need for a judicial ruling once the President speaks. What he orders is, by definition, legal, and nobody can say otherwise, including courts.
Amazingly, again and again, they don't even want their own Justice Department to know what they are doing because they are afraid that DoJ lawyers will tell them that it is against the law. They don't want to hear that it is against the law. As USA Today reported: "For similar reasons, this person said, NSA rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from the U.S. attorney general's office. A second person confirmed this version of events." They know very well that their conduct might be, and in some cases that it is definitely is, illegal, but they are purposely avoiding having the DoJ be able to opine on the legality of their behavior.
That is the same inherently corrupt motive which led the NSA to refuse to give DoJ lawyers security clearance to enable the DoJ to investigate whether their lawyers acted unethically in connection with the NSA illegal eavesdropping program. As intended, that refusal caused the DoJ to shut down its investigation. As Jack Balkin notes about that cover-up, also disclosed yesterday:
Note the irony: While private phone company employees at AT&T and other corporations must have sufficient security clearances to know what is going on in the NSA program- because they are helping to run it-- the Justice Department's own ethics lawyers do not. It's a convenient way to forestall any investigation into wrongdoing.
They desperately avoid not only a ruling from a court as to whether their conduct is legal, but also opinions from their own Justice Department lawyers, likely driven by the fact that many DoJ lawyers opined that the NSA program was illegal -- something they do not want to ever hear again.
Ultimately, I think that the impact of this disclosure may be more political than legal. I think most Americans will find it simply creepy that the Administration bullied the telecom companies to provide them with data to enable it to keep track of every single call every American ever makes, no matter who they are.
But beyond that, when the NSA scandal first broke, the administration’s principal political defense was to continuously assure Americans that they were eavesdropping only on international calls, not domestic calls. Many, many Americans do not ever make any international calls, and it was an implicit way of assuring the heartland that the vast bulk of the calls they make – to their Aunt Millie, to arrange Little League practice, to cite just a few of the administration’s condescending examples – were not the type of calls being intercepted. The only ones with anything to worry about were the weird and suspect Americans who call overseas to weird and suspect countries. If you’re not calling Pakistan or Iran, the Government has no interest in what you’re doing.
That has all changed. We now learn that when Americans call their Aunt Millie, or their girlfriend, or their psychiatrist, or their drug counselor, or their priest or rabbi, or their lawyer, or anyone and everyone else, the Government is very interested. In fact, they are so interested that they make note of it and keep it forever, so that at any time, anyone in the Government can look at a record of every single person whom every single American ever called or from whom they received a call. It doesn't take a professional privacy advocate to find that creepy, invasive, dangerous and un-American.
UPDATE: Two additional points worth making: (1) One of the disturbing aspects of the NSA warrantless eavesdropping program was that it was seen by many intelligence professionals as a radical departure from the agency's tradition of not turning its spying capabilities on the American public domestically. The program disclosed yesterday decimates that tradition by many magnitudes. This is a program where the NSA is collecting data on the exclusively domestic communications of Americans, communicating with one another, on U.S. soil -- exactly what the NSA was supposed to never do.
(2) The legal and constitutional issues, especially at first glance and without doing research, reading cases, etc., are complicated and, in the first instance, difficult to assess, at least for me. That was also obviously true for Qwest's lawyers, which is why they requested a court ruling and, when the administration refused, requested an advisory opinion from DoJ.
But not everyone is burdened by these difficulties. Magically, hordes of brilliant pro-Bush legal scholars have been able to determine instantaneously -- as in, within hours of the program's disclosure -- that the program is completely legal and constitutional (just like so many of them were able confidently to opine within hours of the disclosure of the warrantless eavesdropping program that it, too, was perfectly legal and constitutional). Having said that, there are some generally pro-Bush bloggers expressing serious skepticism over the legality and/or advisability of this program.
All we need it the Chimperor in Chief!
ReplyDeleteCRANKS AND KOOKS: KERRY WON IN '04 ... HEAR ONE OF THEM--LARRY DAVID--TELL YOU THE STONE-COLD EVIDENCE THAT, YEP, GEORGE BUSH STOLE IT IN 2004. AGAIN
ReplyDeleteHear Greg Palast reading his new book, Armed Madhouse, Chapter 4: The Con-Kerry Won. Read the except here.
Cue the "glibertarians" to explain to us why this is really no big deal.
ReplyDeleteThe scary people on the comment threads here are the ones like Bart, who are clearly smart enough to put up a good fight and muddy the waters. But that means they are also smart enough to realize they are being fundamentally dishonest. They just don't have a case, and this post is a good example of the clear evidence of that fact.
What must it be like to wake up every morning knowing that you have found yourself in a position where you have to use your talents to intentionally mislead people. Maybe this explains why so many Republican pundits and "serious people" like Klein, Cohen or even Deborah Howell lash out so quickly. They must be deeply unhappy.
I hate waiting for lawyers to take care of political problems, but do we have the basis for criminal or class action against our phone companies?
ReplyDeleteHas Hayden been exposed as a liar?
Are you surprised the government has a database of domestic phone calls?
ReplyDeleteNo 79%
Yes 21%
What's your reaction to the database?
It bothers me 78%
I'm OK with it 22%
Total Votes: 8,368
An IT guy looked into this about a month ago at DKos. An excellent read for those of us who are not IT pros:
ReplyDeleteAll About NSA's and AT&T's Big Brother Machine, the Narus 6400
(...)
How powerful is this? OC-192 carries about 10 gigabits of data per second. Ten billion bits per second, monitored in real-time. That is stunning. This is one damned powerful machine, one of the most powerful I've ever heard of in 25 years in IT.
(...)
Remember that semantics is not just the data, but rather the meaning of the data. It looks at the the data in a more comprehensive way than looking for keywords. Each NarusInsight machine does this at 2500 million bits per second, in real-time.
You really wonder why BushCo doesn't want to talk about this stuff? It's the biggest invasion of privacy in history by several orders of magnitude.
How can we know? From Narus' Lawful Intercept and Regulatory Compliance page...
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteAs a lawyer (you, not me), I'm wondering about the possible legal status of anyone filing as an injured party.
Based on the USA Today and CNN reports, it seems that we're all (except Qwest subscribers) being tracked. I see this as an infringement of my 4th amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure. This might be a reasonable test case against the NSA and/or Bush administration.
If ever there was a prize for the perfect timing of a book's publication, How Would A Patriot Act would certainly take that prize home. 2nd printing end of May? My only concern is getting the book in the proper hands. I noticed my Working Assets (Sprint, by the way) bill shows your book on its pre-order list. Perhaps Quest would like to make a similar offer?
ReplyDeleteGlenn - this also explains why Bush has never vetoed a bill (though he's attached "signing statements" to 750+ of them, apparently), and why the Administration dodged the Uighur-Gitmo case (Qassim v. Bush; it was mentioned on TalkLeft a couple days ago). The Bush Administration doesn't just reject other branches of government, they reject the legitimacy of other branches by denying them an opportunity to check or balance their power.
ReplyDelete*Nothing* can, or can be seen to, limit their power. Anywhere.
Domestic spying inquiry killed
ReplyDeleteJustice Department says NSA wouldn't grant clearance
Wednesday, May 10, 2006; Posted: 8:19 p.m. EDT (00:19 GMT)
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The government has abruptly ended an inquiry into the warrantless eavesdropping program because the National Security Agency refused to grant Justice Department lawyers security clearance.
Bullshit on the claim that content isn't being monitored. They don't have to "listen" to every call. They couldn't. Read the DKos link up thread.
George Orwell was off by a couple of decades.
ReplyDelete"Totalitarian regimes maintain themselves in political power by means of secret police, propaganda disseminated through the state-controlled mass media, regulation and restriction of free discussion and criticism, the use of mass surveillance, and widespread use of terror tactics." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism)
This administration fits the definition of 'terrorist' as 'systematically using terror, especially as a means of coercion' (into giving up our civil liberties and leaving them in power). (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/terrorist)
Boy, it sure would be trivial to put together some J. Edgar Hoover-like blackmail opportunities with that data.
ReplyDeletesynuclein said...
ReplyDeleteGlenn,
As a lawyer (you, not me), I'm wondering about the possible legal status of anyone filing as an injured party.
EFF has filed a class action on your behalf.
"We now learn that when Americans call their Aunt Millie, or their girlfriend, or their psychiatrist, or their drug counsellor, or their priest or rabbi, or their lawyer, or anyone and everyone else, the Government is very interested."
ReplyDeleteButter wouldn't melt in Mr. Greenwald's mouth. Review earlier posts to ascertain the real motives behind this blog's push for an investigation. Dressing up the impeachment lynch mob in blue suits and red ties and bringing in Aunt Millie in order to attract moderates so that an investigation (witch hunt) can be instituted ...is Rovian.
just when I thought I was out of outrage at the unending criminal enterprise that is our government ... Boy, is Verizon going to hear from me when I get home.
ReplyDeleteFor extra creepy, watch "The President's Analyst" with James Coburn (comedy, 1967). The telephone company took over the world in that film forty years ago. Watching it now is downright eerie.
ReplyDeleteThe feds just shut down the class action lawsuit against AT&T over domestic spying, citing "state secrets." For bonus points, look at this series in the South Jersey Courier-Post on the dubious origins of the "state secrets" precedent: http://www.courierpostonline.com/specialreports/statesecrets/m062203a.htm
I pose the question on my blog:
ReplyDelete"How much money did the TelCo Execs get for selling our information to the NSA?
They obviously were not court-ordered to turn the information over, as Qwest has made obvious, so what "perk" was given to AT&T, BellSouth, and Verizon in order to convince them to turn over the records?
Simple future government telco contracts? Or straight up cash? No-bid contracts to re-wire Iraq's [and Iran?] telecommunications system?
And how do we find this out?"
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI am anxiously awaiting the the response from the Bush Cultists. How will they defend this?
ReplyDeleteFrom the DKos AT7T Brig Brother diary...
ReplyDeleteImagine how great a tool "instant compliance" with the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act could be with this kind of reach and detail. Especially if a secret Presidential Directive allows it to be used without the warrants required under the Act.
That's what it appears we are up against, folks. Real-time semantic data monitoring on a huge scale. A scale beyond what most of us can even comprehend. It's scarey.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/4/8/14724/28476
Notherbob2,
ReplyDeleteAttack the messenger as always. The government is illegally spying on you, but we shouldn't stop them because the people who want investigation or impeachment are "bad"
yeah right.
As usual, an insightful posting. However, some points: BushCo will insist that the "content" of the surveilled communications was never gathered nor the actual parties (just numbers). Of course, of what value are "patterns" of communications without knowledge of the parties or the content of their communications? How does this information get obtained? How may it legally be used in any criminal prosecution? Second, it is not yet clear what persons or agencies have access to this data, where it is stored, for how long and how the analysis is conducted.
ReplyDeleteThose with more expertise in these areas should comment.
notherbob2 said...
ReplyDeleteDressing up the impeachment lynch mob in blue suits and red ties and bringing in Aunt Millie in order to attract moderates so that an investigation (witch hunt) can be instituted ...is Rovian.
Who writes your material, notherbob2? Because that was hilarious. You should send that stuff to Colbert. you might as well get paid for it.
>The usefulness of the NSA's domestic phone-call database as a counterterrorism tool is unclear. Also unclear is whether the database has been used for other purposes.<
ReplyDeleteGee... not only is it illegal and immoral but it's also ineffective.
I feel better already
Phillybits said...
ReplyDelete“… so what "perk" was given to AT&T, BellSouth, and Verizon in order to convince them to turn over the records?”
A death sentence for Net Neutrality, is my guess.
Phone companies hand over ginormous databases to the government. Phone companies take over the internet. Quid pro quo.
ReplyDeleteAn interesting aspect of this is that is shows the desperation of the defense of the program uncovered in December. Why make the fact that domestic calls are (mostly) excluded a prime defense unless you are either stupidly secure that this second program will never come to light or you figure you can deal with it when necessary with the same old arguments? That entire leg is now cut out from under the defense of the NSA spying program. Of course they'll split hairs, and note this is external and not internal data.
ReplyDeleteFurther, the Administration and its defenders shamelessly assume that no matter what wrongdoing comes to light they can deal with it in turn. I do wonder sometimes what more it could possibly take to wake "the heartland." This is somewhat reassurring because it suggests that things will keep coming out and eventually the camel's back with creak under the strain...
Anybody know if this includes cell phones? I have heard AT&T and Verizon, but what about Cingular, Tmobile etc. . . Also interesting, what about VIOP like Vonage?
ReplyDeleteCIA Nominee Softens on Eavesdropping
ReplyDeleteBy KATHERINE SHRADER, AP
WASHINGTON (May 10) - Gen. Michael Hayden, nominee to be director of the CIA, told at least one Democratic senator that he may be open to changing the law that governs eavesdropping on U.S. soil to allow the Bush administration's warrantless surveillance.
CIA in Transition
According to Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill., Hayden indicated he could support a congressional debate on modifying the Foriegn Intelligence Surveillance Act
The discussion about The Rule of Law, Courts, The President Broke the Law, The Role of the Judiciary, Mr. President, Tell it to a Judge, and all of the rest of it has become obsolete.
When you have a Presidency that wants to establish a Dictatorship, a compliant Congress, and a country that is willing to allow that to happen, the concept of "Laws" is irrelevant.
Are certain people uncomfortable with the notion that "If the President does it, it's not illegal"?
Colbert doesn't like that?
OK. They'll just change the laws to make whatever the President wants to do legal.
The "Rule of Law" was only significant when there was general agreement that the "spirit" of the laws passed would reflect the concept of Government which reflects the fundamental values in The Declaration of Independence and the Consitution.
Laws themselves and abiding by the "Law" mean nothing if the laws are just changed willy nilly to allow a fascist Dictatorship to operate legally.
The question all along should have been "What laws?"
The Patriot Act was a law.
How many objected to that when it was passed?
The USA PATRIOT Act gives the government a blank check to spy on us.
-antiwar.com
And it ushered fascism into America.
Great writing Glenn... you are an informational asset for me.
ReplyDeletesynuclein said...
ReplyDeleteGlenn,
As a lawyer (you, not me), I'm wondering about the possible legal status of anyone filing as an injured party.
Based on the USA Today and CNN reports, it seems that we're all (except Qwest subscribers) being tracked. I see this as an infringement of my 4th amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure. This might be a reasonable test case against the NSA and/or Bush administration.
I'm with synuclein about the need to file a lawsuit over this, but I doubt a lawsuit against the gov't will go far. It might be easier to sue the phone companies, because as Qwest's refusal to go along suggests, they could be held liable for giving up information like that. Check your phone bills for any info on user agreements.
"The sources said the NSA made clear that it was willing to pay for the cooperation."
ReplyDeleteOur tax dollars at work? Like in Iraq and New Orleans and for black programs we and Congress aren't allowed to know anything about? These guys have brought down our country and are feeding off it like a pack of hyenas. Angry? You bet.
I think more examination is needed of just why this would wind up being "the largest database ever assembled in the world" if all it consists of is call records. Phone numbers, dates, times and durations don't take a lot of space.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, if they were digitally recording the converstions as well, that likely would be the biggest database ever.
Presumably they also collect everyone's email -- wonder when that will come out?
ReplyDeleteHeh. They are all approaching the tipping point on the right side of the boat. Bush is a uniter, after all.
ReplyDeleteJan Rooth said...
ReplyDeleteI think more examination is needed of just why this would wind up being "the largest database ever assembled in the world" if all it consists of is call records. Phone numbers, dates, times and durations don't take a lot of space.
On the other hand, if they were digitally recording the converstions as well, that likely would be the biggest database ever.
Don't read the comments? You might just miss something. The link up thread to the DKos diary from a month ago. An 25 year IT pro does provide your answers.
aviel said...
ReplyDelete"The sources said the NSA made clear that it was willing to pay for the cooperation."
Our tax dollars at work? Like in Iraq and New Orleans and for black programs we and Congress aren't allowed to know anything about? These guys have brought down our country and are feeding off it like a pack of hyenas. Angry? You bet.
This indicates, to me at least, that they know the cops are on the way and are grabbing everything they can before beating it out the back door. I could be wrong.
Time to break out the pikestaffs.
ReplyDeletemichael said...
ReplyDeleteI would like to know from these hordes of Bush bootlicker apologists, is there anything - ANYTHING - that Bush could do which they would regard as unconstitutional???
Raise "their" taxes. Not let them leave with the loot and head off to bermuda when the looting is done.
Yeah, posted on this "avoidance behaviour" on the maladministration's part last night on the next to last thread.
ReplyDeleteThings will come to a head. A court confrontation ... or perhaps even a silent coup ... or both.
Cheers,
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeletemichael said...
I would like to know from these hordes of Bush bootlicker apologists, is there anything - ANYTHING - that Bush could do which they would regard as unconstitutional???
Raise "their" taxes. Not let them leave with the loot and head off to bermuda when the looting is done.
12:54 PM
I forgot one. Not let them own as many machine guns and armored vehicles as they can afford, and at least one tactical nuke per household, (for when that "bad element" moves into the neighborhood).
Of course everyone realizes that if you participate in any type of "rewards" program with a retailer, then the NSA is busy trying to correlate all this "who do call?" data with all the "what do you buy?" data and the "where do you surf?" data and by looking at it all, the identity of the all the terrorists is just going to come popping out.
ReplyDeleteAnd of course once all this hardware is in place and all the outrage has died down, the information would NEVER be used for any other purpose.
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteThings will come to a head. A court confrontation ... or perhaps even a silent coup ... or both.
12:57 PM
I actually think the coup has been going on for some time. It's got to be done differently here, bloodless, low intensity, like a fencing match. All the leaks are telling.
Anonymous wrote:
ReplyDeleteDon't read the comments? You might just miss something. The link up thread to the DKos diary from a month ago. An 25 year IT pro does provide your answers.
Thanks but I did read the comments and link and they don't answer my question.
The explicit claim has been made that this particular program, which is resulting in "the biggest databse ever assembled on Earth," collects only external data.
I'm questioning that claim, on the basis that external data alone would not result in such an enormous database. Indeed, the phone companies (collectively) already keep that data, and I don't think their databases have been discussed as being exceptionally large.
DefenseTech cites Glenn's posting, and links to an article about the software processes used to capture and analyze the data. [See this article for links to the relevant and supporting information]:
ReplyDeleteJamie adds: Traditionally, the devices which record dialed phone numbers are called pen registers, and trap-and-trace devices. The ECPA provided some legal privacy protection. It was controversial when Section 214 of the Patriot Act amended 50 USC 1842 to allow the FBI to record this information with minimal oversight. The Department of Justice has been required for some time to report to Congress the number of pen registers and trap-and-traces, though in recent years [PDF, see question 10] it declared that information classified.
when I told a group of my "whacko commie lefist moonbat" friends here in San Francisco about the article I'd just read in the USA Today, their response ranged from "oh well, you knew it was going on" to "what can we do" to "that's wrong but i can't change it" to outright silence.
ReplyDeletewhile i appreciate the passion with which you post, Glenn, I was somewhat benumbed by the reaction of my friends. anecdotal i know, this is my community into which i hope to generate a traction of ideas that what is happening to our country is perverse and wrong.
and it was as if i stepped into molasses. and i've spent the last 12 hours trying to clean myself off -- all the while asking myself over and over What the F$%# is wrong with these people?
the OBVIOUS wrongness of this NSA program is abundantly clear. i don't even want to waste my time questioning the ethics or morality of people who would choose to deliberate run roughshod over the Law, the Constitution and my country.
i just want to take immediate, decisive action. in the face of clear and present danger, the only thing that matters is what you do.
but, i exclaiming WTF is wrong with you people?!, i actually refer to my friends. and the reality of their apathy is painfully sad and demoralizing.
He's on TV. He looks like a defendant, a perp even, and the first words out of his mouth are 9/11.
ReplyDeleteDavid Ensor at CNN just supported the govt's logic, saying that because the telco compnany lawyers went over it, it "must be okay." What he failed to mention, though, is that Qwest's lawyers asked for DoJ letters and further legal justification for the NSA datalogging.
ReplyDeleteJan Rooth said...
ReplyDeleteAnonymous wrote:
Perhaps it's technically over your head.
I gotta say, with Smith v. Maryland out there, and recent cases such as NH v. Gubitosi, I am surprised Qwest put up such opposition. It suggests to me: (a) they are really to be commended on their privacy principles; (b) they feel they have some implicit promise of confidentiality to customers they feel they cannot breach absent court order; or (c) there is more to the details of this program than just gathering phone numbers and basic call information.
ReplyDeleteRegarding legality ...
ReplyDeleteSince what this amounts to in fact is a "pen register" on every single phone, I guess the legality question boils down to whether the Electronic Communications Privacy Act covers pen registers for foreign intelligence purposes.
Not being a lawyer, I haven't a clue.
Anonymous wrote:
ReplyDeletePerhaps it's technically over your head.
I so appreciate the condescension, but no - it's not over my head.
Perhaps my point is too abstruse for you to comprehend? I'm referencing the explicit claim made about this program - that it only records external data and attempting to reconcile that with the statement that the result is "the largest database ever assembled."
C)there is more to the details of this program than just gathering phone numbers and basic call information.
ReplyDeleteDing! Ding! Ding! We have a winner. I am not an IT, telecom, computer geek, but I know enough to know that what I read at the DKos diary and the voluminous links to definitons and other sites and info that we are dealing with a very new beast here. As to "semantics" in this context, it goes beyond my level of comprehension but it's not what they are claiming it is, innocuous and benign.
"In an effort to provide more complex network traffic analysis, Narus is introducing its semantic network traffic service. The company cites research which predicts the fast-growing ISP sector will become stagnant without the ability to offer differentiated services. In order to gain significant revenues from these services, a technology was necessary to allow usage based pricing.
"We realized that, at the heart of the data that is needed to accurately measure usage and enable 'pay-as-you-go' business models for Internet service providers, is what we call the 'semantics' of network traffic," said Ori Cohen, Narus' founder and chief executive officer.
"In short, by seeing the 'semantics' of network traffic, service providers can see 'inside' the data, providing much more detailed insight about the use of the Internet and the perceived value of specific applications than existing technologies allow."
Semantic Traffic Analysis uses network technology to consistently capture and analyze all IP data streams on heavily trafficked networks remotely and non-invasively. In addition, the semantics of the data stream are determined also, as well as the protocol used and the application taking place. A variety of other data is available as well."
Remember that semantics is not just the data, but rather the meaning of the data. It looks at the the data in a more comprehensive way than looking for keywords. Each NarusInsight machine does this at 2500 million bits per second, in real-time.
You really wonder why BushCo doesn't want to talk about this stuff? It's the biggest invasion of privacy in history by several orders of magnitude.
How is it that the Administration has Lawyers with security clearances to block the EFF's ATT lawsuit but none to investigate its own dealing with the NSA????
ReplyDeleteJan Rooth said...
ReplyDeleteRegarding legality ...
Since what this amounts to in fact is a "pen register" on every single phone, I guess the legality question boils down to whether the Electronic Communications Privacy Act covers pen registers for foreign intelligence purposes.
Not being a lawyer, I haven't a clue.
1:08 PM
Yes, I'm about 99% sure that the ECPA covers pen registers. Here's some confirmation from an unlikely source:
http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2006/05/usa_today_on_th.html
If I had been forced to guess, I would have said that this is not legal, since (if I am recalling correctly the debate about the NSA warrantless program), even a pen trace that records only phone number called and not the content of each call requires a warrant. I have no doubt we will see commentary about the legal aspects soon enough.
Glenn, could you confirm this?
Jan Rooth said...
ReplyDeleteAnonymous wrote:
Perhaps it's technically over your head.
I so appreciate the condescension, but no - it's not over my head.
Glad to be appreciated. Troll by anytime.
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteAn IT guy looked into this about a month ago at DKos. An excellent read for those of us who are not IT pros:
All About NSA's and AT&T's Big Brother Machine, the Narus 6400
As I mentioned in a post months past, the distinction between "call content" (traditional Title III warrant taps) and "pen register" taps has been blurred by the digital age. It used to be that call content was analog and/or carried on separate channels from the data signalling (which, before the "intelligent network" with call forwarding, embedded fax, etc., used to be pretty rudimentary and sparse as far as really private information goes). But with VoIP ("voice over IP"), integrated data services, multifunction communications devices (PDA which do phone and e-mail, etc.), and such, the line has become quite blurry.
Even for IP, the "HTTP GET", which just "accesses" a page (which might be thought to be similar to placing a call) actually contains perhaps a bit more information than you would really want to hand out (such as where you are coming from, what keywords and or parameters you used, etc.). Then there's the Java stuff that can be used pass back and forth hidden information (cookies for example, but on an unsecured machine, a whole lot more).
Snooping the entirety of IP connections is a very intrusive snoop. And some folks want to call it just "data mining". No. It's become essentially equivalent to "call content". Which should require a Title III warrant (or at the very least, the roughtly equivalent FISA court order).
Cheers,
Ah-ha!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.usiia.org/legis/ecpa.html#s3121
§ 3121. General prohibition on pen register and trap and trace device use; exception
(a) In general.--Except as provided in this section, no person may install or use a pen register or a trap and trace device without first obtaining a court order under section 3123 of this title or under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.).
(b) Exception.--The prohibition of subsection (a) does not apply with respect to the use of a pen register or a trap and trace device by a provider of electronic or wire communication service--
(1) relating to the operation, maintenance, and testing of a wire or electronic communication service or to the protection of the rights or property of such provider, or to the protection of users of that service from abuse of service or unlawful use of service; or
(2) to record the fact that a wire or electronic communication was initiated or completed in order to protect such provider, another provider furnishing service toward the completion of the wire communication, or a user of that service, from fraudulent, unlawful or abusive use of service; or (3) where the consent of the user of that service has been obtained.
(c) Penalty.--Whoever knowingly violates subsection (a) shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.
What's interesting to note in the USA Today article is that the whistleblowers are saying they're freaked at what's going on at the NSA. What does that tell you?
ReplyDeleteDefense Tech describes it this way:
But, until recently, those databases didn't seem particularly intimidating, because NSA snoops were sworn to purge the identities of American citizens, as soon as they got caught in the surveillance net. As one former signal intelligence specialist told me a few months back:
"It's drilled into you from minute one that you should not ever, ever, ever, under any fucking circumstances turn this massive apparatus on an American citizen," one source says. "You do a lot of weird shit. But at least you don't fuck with your own people." [emphasis in the original]
So I'm a "horde" now? I guess I should lay off the buffet for a while.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, your essential argument seems to be that folks such as myself who feel this is a non-scandal simply don't have the legal qualifications to digest reams of case law, precedent, etc needed to understand the magnitude of the NSA’s transgressions.
That may very well be true up to a point, but guess what I d have?
I have a Sitemeter on my blog. I collect IP addresses just as the NSA collects phone numbers. I know when a visitor comes to my site, what city, state and country he comes from, how long he stayed, and which links he clicked on while he was there, just as the NSA knows where a call was placed, where it was placed to, and how long it was. I actually collect more data than does the NSA. So do most bloggers, and almost all commercial web sites.
You know what these millions of web sites typically do with that data?
They package and sell it, whether they are selling your data for email spam campaigns or using your information—like the NSA does—to determine patterns to selling advertising, like that blogad on the side of your page and mine.
You are using this same kind of external customer data for commercial gain, while the NSA is collection it to save your life. I don’t think we need to be lawyers to figure out which use is more constitutionally valid.
Glad to be appreciated. Troll by anytime.
ReplyDeleteOh great. "Anonymous" snorts and me that maybe I'm just too lazy to read the comments or too stupid to understand them, and then had the chutzpah to call me a troll. At least I have the decency to identify myself.
Take a good look in the mirror, "anonymous."
Now can we get back to the issue? I never disputed the technical capability, I questioned how two particular statements being made about this particular program can possibly be reconciled.
Maybe the answer is the one you're proposing. But if so, the statement that this program only collects "external" data is false. This was precisly my point - that the likelihood that this claim is false needs to be seriously examined.
Confederate Yankee said...
ReplyDeleteblah, blah, zzzzzzzzzzz....
sitemeter
blah, blah, zzzzz
Relative of Jan's?
It's illegal and it's not just a record of who called who? WTF is calling who abstruse?
And no CY, you don't have the brain.
ReplyDeleteConfederate Yankee said...
I have a Sitemeter on my blog. I collect IP addresses just as the NSA collects phone numbers. I know when a visitor comes to my site, what city, state and country he comes from, how long he stayed, and which links he clicked on while he was there, just as the NSA knows where a call was placed, where it was placed to, and how long it was. I actually collect more data than does the NSA. So do most bloggers, and almost all commercial web sites.
You know what these millions of web sites typically do with that data?
They package and sell it, whether they are selling your data for email spam campaigns or using your information—like the NSA does—to determine patterns to selling advertising, like that blogad on the side of your page and mine.
All true, but there are key differences:
(1) When an internet user gets their service, they generally consent to having this information made available to websites such as yours. With this new program, no such consent was asked for or given.
(2) As illustrated by the ECPA excerpt above, this is strictly prohibited by law. What blogad companies do is legal.
Jan...Maybe the answer is the one you're proposing. But if so, the statement that this program only collects "external" data is false.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, are you knew to this planet? You don't look like an alien. How obstuse of me.
Amazing the GOP wants to trash the Constitution to create more dots, after the deciderer stated that 9-11 happened not because of a lack of dots but the failure lay in connecting the dots.
ReplyDeleteSo, why is it they want more dots?
Does this sound like Alice in Wonderland stuff or not?
I have no patience for dullards today, or people who need to get up to speed (where the hell have they been the last two years?). I am so f@cking pissed I want to... do something like water a particular tree...
ReplyDeleteIn reponse to a comment when I first posted the link to this USA Today article early this morning (on another of Glenn's postings), I opined on the political ramifications of the information:
ReplyDeleteIt does say a lot. I still think that USA Today is the workingperson's newspaper. It's a national version of NYC's Daily News. That this news about NSA makes it into this paper will definitely get the NSA story to the street. How they'll respond is less predictable.
I can imagine that we'd be talking about some version of just more distrust of the government and further convincing them that the President is a liar. That's about the only that has stuck with most people.
That's because people don't like to be sold a bill of goods. Perhaps this story in USA Today will ram home the truth that not only has Bush sold them a bill of goods, he's also made fools of them. He's laughing at them to boot.
Perhaps this story will burst that bubble that some people still have that Bush is just a good ole boy. When you start talking about techno stuff and using it to listen to people's phone calls--that's just not what a good ole boy would do. That's what commies do.
Of course, it would have been over-the-top to add "and pedophiles" to that last sentence.
We've been undocked from a reality that I was once comfortable with.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading the USAToday story last night I felt it was now safe to say we've crossed the threshold into a fascist state. The speed at which this administration and congress are moving is frightening. And, I mention congress because they are implicitly allowing the president to claim unconstitutional power.
The next few months leading to November will be critical. If we are to see the emergence of a fascist dictatorship it will have to come before then. The polls show that Americans do not support spying programs, the war, secret prisons, and corruption. What amazes me is that the people obviously don't support the administration but no one is motivated to do anything about it.
Start watching for the October surprise, it might come early.
"You are using this same kind of external customer data for commercial gain, while the NSA is collection it to save your life. I don’t think we need to be lawyers to figure out which use is more constitutionally valid."
ReplyDeleteNo, Confederate, you don't need to be a lawyer to figure out basic elements of the Constitution, but - and you'll forgive my rudeness here, I'm sure, but this sort of crap gets me riled up - you might want to take a basic civics class. 5th grade civics should do it, I think.
The Constitution is fundamentally not about the relations of private citizens to one another - it's about the relations between GOVERNMENT and private citizens. To even bring up the question of your private business practices as a Constitutional question betrays a serious misunderstanding of the Constitution. My god, have you even read the thing?
It becomes more clear every day that the 32% that still approve of Bush's performance in office are the folks that wear tin foil on their heads when they go outdoors to prevent Russian satellites from reading their thoughts.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone wants to tell Qwest that they thank them I was told by customer service that there is no e-mail. Here is the address:
ReplyDeleteQwest
Attn Executive Office
1801 California Suite 5200
Denver, CO 80202
Good catch, dwbh.
ReplyDeleteThat appears to answer my question - a "foreign intelligence" purpose does not constitute an exemption from the court order requirement.
>You are using this same kind of external customer data for commercial gain, while the NSA is collection it to save your life.<
ReplyDeleteWe're from the government, we're here to help!
If this were such a great program, then it would be sold to Congress, passsed and signed into law. All Americans after all agree that we want to catch the terrorists.
The fact that the NSA is deliberatly keeping all this from both FISA and the DOJ suggests that what they are actually doing is something that we wouldn't approve of if we knew what it is.
And the key to that argue is simple. We don't know what they're really doing. And they're not about to tell anyone.
So anyone who defends the program is doing so out of ignorance and with what I think is a mystifying trust of people in power.
Which are you, dumbass or bootlicker? Let's have a gander at your web habits.......
ReplyDeleteThat kkklown? Both.
Oy.
ReplyDeleteI know this is off-topic, but is the "anonymous" feature going to get turned off anytime soon?
Glenn:
ReplyDelete1) Do you have any grounds to believe that this program is illegal? If so, I would love to hear it.
2) If there is no reason to believe that the program is illegal, exactly why would the NSA be seeking unconstitutional advisory opinions from the courts? How exactly does this data mining fall under FISA or the FISA court's jurisdiction?
3) Why does the NSA need to give Justice attorneys the highest level of security clearance when it has its own attorneys to consult? I haven't been overwhelmed with Justice's operational security since they leaked everything they knew of the NSA Program to the WP.
Let's talk about what this program is all about. The telephone companies are sharing their billing records with the NSA. These records consist of essentially the telephone number making the call, the telephone number receiving the call and the time period of the call.
No one is alleging that the government is listening in on any calls, knows the parties making the calls or anything at all about the subject matter of the calls.
So why does NSA want this material? Welcome to the world of data mining of public information. Like the DoD program Able Danger before it, the NSA is probably gathering terabytes of publicly available information on virtually everything imaginable, analyzing known past terrorist activity to identify patterns and then designing programs to identify these patterns in this enormous mass of material.
Is data mining effective? Well, from what we know of the Able Danger program, they were able to identify the Cole attack and the Atta 9/11 cell before both attacks. Pretty damn good.
However, DoD lawyers blocked Able Danger from warning the FBI about Atta and the Navy about the Cole attack and compelled the Able Danger team to destroy years worth of data base work because they were afraid it might be interpreted as invading the terrorist's privacy.
INSANE.
Tell me again why we need to be upset at anything concerning this story except for the fact that USA Today told this to the enemy?
To all supporters of the NSA programs, put your money where your mouth is. Fuck politics, let's just talk about the kind of world we want to live in. Please cut, paste and answer the following questionnaire. Any other appropriate questions and better wording of this post is much appreciated. My answers to all are NO.
ReplyDeleteI believe the government should collect in a database and analyze for all Americans:
__The phone numbers I call and receive.
__The addresses of email I send and receive.
__The GET and POST strings of websites I visit.
__The IP addresses of all my internet transactions.
__The addresses of postal mail including FedEx etc. that I send and and receive.
__The positioning information of my cell phone.
__The billing data of my purchases.
__ My banking records.
__ My medical records.
__The political demonstrations I participate in.
__The content of my phone, email and internet activity.
bart asked:
ReplyDelete1) Do you have any grounds to believe that this program is illegal? If so, I would love to hear it.
I believe Glenn said he hasn't had time to think it through yet.
But if you'll look at the comments above, it appears that there is a legal requirement for a court order to implement a pen register, and to all appearances this program amounts to placing a pen register on millions of phones.
One might also note the unwillingness of the NSA to even get a letter from the AG, let alone an advisory opinion from the FISA court, to assuage Qwest's concerns.
Aaron in NM said...
ReplyDeletebart:However, DoD lawyers blocked Able Danger from warning the FBI about Atta and the Navy about the Cole attack and compelled the Able Danger team to destroy years worth of data base work because they were afraid it might be interpreted as invading the terrorist's privacy.
Please post a legitimate cite for this astonishing revelation.
Curt Weldon.
Bwahahahahaha!
Jan Rooth said...
ReplyDeleteOy.
I know this is off-topic, but is the "anonymous" feature going to get turned off anytime soon?
1:52 PM
We don't care.
I knew that USA today was going be called a traitor before the thread was out.
ReplyDeleteAs stated, I am President of the Orin Kerr fan club. Best legal analyst on these electronic spying matters on the Internet.
ReplyDeleteI never thought it would be possible for Orin Kerr, my hero, to outdo himself. There didn't seem to be much room to allow that to happen.
But he's done it. Why don't they give Pulitzer Prizes for the most provocative legal articles in America?
Here is Orin's entire take on the USA story's revelations:
Orin Kerr, May 11, 2006 at 2:50am] 1 Trackbacks / Possibly More Trackbacks
The Other NSA Surveillance Program?: Those who were following the NSA domestic surveillance story back in January will recall that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales strongly hinted that there was another surveillance program out there that remained top secret. Well, it looks like that program may now have been leaked, too. Thursday's USA Today breaks the story:
(quotes excerpt from USA article)
For more on the program, see here.
The "see here" is a link to the USA article.
Wow! He-a-a-a-a-vy.
While Orin is out of the room checking for any new faxes from Yoo, Gonzales, Bork, or Alito, another blog host on VC says:
For the time being, I'll leave in Orin's very capable hands an analysis of whether this particular domestic surveillance program is legal.
Personally, we here at the Orin Kerr fan club could hardly stand the suspense.
Good. OK is back already. (Gee, that was quick.)
Goes through his usual long "serious" legal discussion of all the different legal issues involved and then concludes:
To summarize, my very preliminary sense is that there are no Fourth Amendment issues here but a number of statutory problems under statutes such as FISA and the pen register statute. Of course, all of the statutory questions are subject to the possible argument that Article II trumps those statutes. As I have mentioned before, I don't see the support for the strong Article II argument in existing caselaw, but there is a good chance that the Administration's legal argument in support of the new law will rely on it.
Thanks, Miles.
Miles?
Why did I write that?
My mistake. I meant OK of course.
Now I am not saying Orin's contributions regarding the General Hayden nomination is anything to sneeze at.
To be clear, there may be reasons to oppose General Hayden’s nomination. But his understanding of the Fourth Amendment is not one of them.
(For those not following this story, to sum up Gen. Hayden's understanding of the Fourth Amendment, warrants don't have to be reasonable and NSA doesn't need warrants anyway to spy on Americans---that about does it.)
And I was also a fan of OK's article (wasn't that the very first serious discussion of the NSA spying revelations---Orin must have been up all night on that one) in which he also concluded that they were not a violation of the Fourth Amendment.
But personally I think Orin Kerr keeps getting better and better.
A Real Patriot.
On USA Today 'the enemy', I say this:
ReplyDeletePeople like Bart are the real enemy, and should be swinging from lampposts before we end up with tyranny here in the USA.
To the Bush cultists:
ReplyDeleteWake up and smell the Constitution burning!
Aaron in NM said...
ReplyDeleteAlso, someone, and we all know who, is being strangely silent today.
1:55 PM
I'm just posting under a new pseudonym. Jan Rooth.
>One might also note the unwillingness of the NSA to even get a letter from the AG, let alone an advisory opinion from the FISA court, to assuage Qwest's concerns.<
ReplyDeleteEspecially since they would be otherwise strongly motivated to do so in order to secure Qwest's cooperation.
bart: Tell me again why we need to be upset at anything concerning this story except for the fact that USA Today told this to the enemy?
ReplyDeleteBart, Just a general observation: We don't know yet what they are doing. What we do know is that people who do know what the NSA is doing felt so ambivalent about it that they risked prosecution by blowing the whistle on the program(s). You may not think that says something, but I think it says a lot.
These people are insdiers who know the parameters allowed by NSA standard operating procedures regarding domestic spying, are trained in their responsibilities under the law, and support unequivocably the search for and capture of terrorists. And yet, given all this, they risk their jobs, their legal status, etc. and they come out and say something's wrong. There's a lot of smoke there... we have yet to see the fire.
More to your assertion quoted above: Those high-paid corporate lawyers at Qwest sure did think there are legal and constituional problems involved. So much so, they even asked the DoJ to give some kind of waiver or something. But the DoJ couldn't or wouldn't do that. Any guess why Bart? (of course you do...)
Also consider the one legal issue that does seem clear, as reported by USA Today about Qwest's CEO:
"According to sources familiar with the events, Qwest's CEO at the time, Joe Nacchio, was deeply troubled by the NSA's assertion that Qwest didn't need a court order — or approval under FISA — to proceed. Adding to the tension, Qwest was unclear about who, exactly, would have access to its customers' information and how that information might be used.
Financial implications were also a concern, the sources said. Carriers that illegally divulge calling information can be subjected to heavy fines. The NSA was asking Qwest to turn over millions of records. The fines, in the aggregate, could have been substantial. (...)
Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.
The NSA's explanation did little to satisfy Qwest's lawyers. "They told (Qwest) they didn't want to do that because FISA might not agree with them," one person recalled. For similar reasons, this person said, NSA rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from the U.S. attorney general's office. A second person confirmed this version of events."
My only concern is getting the book in the proper hands.
ReplyDeleteYou mean outside of the circle of links that is ALL BLOG AND NO ACTION?
The faux "advertise liberally" crowd won't stand for anything, they claim that actually doing anything liberal or progressive is not a "netroot" thing.
Gee glenn, do you think it might be a good idea to build bridges and link to someone other than FDL occasionally?
The "circle of links" may have created your "brand" and sold you book, but do you want to do more?
BushCo will insist that the "content" of the surveilled communications was never gathered nor the actual parties
ReplyDeleteAnd earlier he "insisted" that they were not doing the spying in the first place.
Lying liars will say whatever they can pull out of their arse....
Like a 7 1/2 pound perch.
It's very unlikely that this new spying program is clearly legal, else there wouldn't have been such resistance by the NSA legal team to bring in the (Ashcroft!!) Dept of Justice to give their blessings.
ReplyDeleteDitto the essentially rubber stamping FISA court.
So forget about the "clearness" of the legality, especially if right-wing blogging "lawyers" instantly proclaim it. They're pretty dispassionate in their analysis.
You think the DoJ is trying to hide something?
ReplyDeleteThe Department of Justice has been required for some time to report to Congress the number of pen registers and trap-and-traces, though in recent years [PDF, see question 10] it declared that information classified. [my emphasis]
Also consider the one legal issue that does seem clear, as reported by USA Today about Qwest's CEO:
ReplyDelete"According to sources familiar with the events, Qwest's CEO at the time, Joe Nacchio, was deeply troubled by the NSA's assertion that Qwest didn't need a court order — or approval under FISA — to proceed. Adding to the tension, Qwest was unclear about who, exactly, would have access to its customers' information and how that information might be used.
What kind of goombah is disa Nacchio guy? The other heads of the telecom families knew that our government is a biziness, a criminal enterprise, justa like-a dem, so da constitution is justa outta date! Da biziness of government is-a da biziness. Datsa fascism for you!
...that Bush could do which they would regard as unconstitutional???
ReplyDeleteEvidently, the only thing would be actually ENFORCING the constitution and a actually CARRYING OUT his oath of office.
Yup, its chimpy's upside-down world, and ALL HYPOCRACY IS ON SALE AT GREATLY REDUCED PRICE!
Come and get your's before the corruption and thievin' is done!
bart said...
ReplyDelete"Let's talk about what this program is all about. The telephone companies are sharing their billing records with the NSA. These records consist of essentially the telephone number making the call, the telephone number receiving the call and the time period of the call."
... and back in December we were told, don't worry, no domestic calls were being targeted. Now it looks like all of them.
Don't worry, I'll only stick it in a little bit.
Sheesh.
President Fuckwit: "The intelligence activities I authorized are lawful..."
ReplyDeleteAnyone else get the feeling that these words will go down in history together with such phrases as "I am not a crook", "Mistakes were made", and "I did not have sexual intercourse with that woman"?
Which, to be fair, I suppose he didn't, and that mistakes were made, but Nixon is still a crook. And George is about to join Dick's august club of reputation.
Seriously, this administration's domestic spying activities have long since passed reprehensible and un-american. Between one party control and domestic eavesdropping, we have entered the territory of Sovietism and totalitarianism.
thelastnamechosen said...
ReplyDeleteTo all supporters of the NSA programs, put your money where your mouth is. Fuck politics, let's just talk about the kind of world we want to live in. Please cut, paste and answer the following questionnaire. Any other appropriate questions and better wording of this post is much appreciated. My answers to all are NO.
I believe the government should collect in a database and analyze for all Americans:
__The phone numbers I call and receive.
So long as they are not getting the identities of parties or content, I do not have an objection to this. Your telephone company has this information and is very likely selling it to marketing companies.
__The addresses of email I send and receive.
See above answer.
__The GET and POST strings of websites I visit.
See above answer.
__The IP addresses of all my internet transactions.
See above answer.
__The addresses of postal mail including FedEx etc. that I send and and receive.
How would they do this?
__The positioning information of my cell phone.
No. This is content and none of their business.
__The billing data of my purchases.
Yes for certain types of purchases such as materials for explosives, fireaarms and such. No for everything else.
__ My banking records.
No. This is content.
__ My medical records.
No. This is content. However, Medicare, Medicaid and the VA may already have this.
__The political demonstrations I participate in.
If you are in public where the entire world can see you, why not? Why can the press identify you but the police cannot?
__The content of my phone, email and internet activity.
No. This is the dividing line in my mind. Others may disagree.
Instead of hurling around hollow accusations of "illegality," we should be seriously debating the pros and cons of programs like public record data mining vs. privacy.
Perhaps my point is too abstruse for you to comprehend?
ReplyDeleteThere really are many morons here, but we try to get along with them.
Don't ya just love the condenscending attitude of people that proclaim to be technical wizards and information specialists, yet they cannot grasp the underlying meaning of a simple question or statement?
None of this should be a surprise to anyone paying attention to the dictatorship. The Bush/Cheney /Rumsfeld clique doesn't regard the constitution as anything but a piece of paper, so that is really all we have to remember when we get more disclosures of their shady and cadaverous calamity. It should be very clear to any American at this point that these buffoons will refuse to listen to any argument that what they are doing is destroying this country, the phony "war on terror" trumps any concern about ANY previous law or solid precedent. The real irony is these things are getting shoved down our throats by the same scum that for decades preached they are from the "get the government off your back" crowd, so the defenders of such heresy have been closet fascists all along. Pitiful sheep that follow anything these fools tell them. Where are those stupid Militia groups that preached so much about this very type of government intrusion into ones private life?
ReplyDeleteIt should have been obvious when these bastards claimed that this program was only for international calls that it was of course much more, hasn't this been the MO of these scum-bags all along? Have they ever told the truth about ANYTHING??
"No need for Democracy-No need for Congress-No need for courts" could be the campaign slogan for the Republican party for years to come. Just think of all the savings for the taxpayer when we could just do away with those idle branches of government that don't have any legs anymore. These pigs just can't say it. They can only spew crap like:
"As we know, there are known knowns. And there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know, but there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know."
This is why anything these chumps say is a farce, they don't give a rats ass how creepy they are, they are going to do what they please and what was once the USA be dammed.
How do you feel about the government's database of domestic phone calls?
ReplyDeleteIt bothers me 76%
I'm OK with it 24%
Total Votes: 60,755
****
Bush Says Government Not 'Trolling' Phone Records
Lawmakers Demand Probe Into Reported Database of Calls
By LAURIE KELLMAN, AP
Bush did not confrim the report that AT&T Corp., Verizon Communications Inc., and BellSouth Corp. began turning over records to the NSA shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, as USA Today reported based on anonymous sources it said had direct knowledge of the arrangement.
"Our intelligence activities strictly target al-Qaida and their known affiliates," Bart said. (Heh heh) "We are not mining or trolling through the personal lives of innocent Americans."
Bush said any domestic intelligence-gathering measures he's approved are "lawful," and he says "appropriate" members of Congress have been briefed.
The disclosure could complicate Bush's bid to win confirmation of former NSA director Gen. Michael Hayden as CIA director.
Congressional Republicans and Democrats demanded answers from the Bush administration Thursday about a government spy agency secretly collecting records of ordinary Americans' phone calls to build a database of every call made within the country.
The top-ranking Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee said he was shocked by the revelation about the NSA.
"It is our government, it's not one party's government. It's America's government. Those entrusted with great power have a duty to answer to Americans what they are doing," Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont.
The Republican chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, said he would call the phone companies to appear before the panel "to find out exactly what is going on."
The companies said Thursday that they are protecting customers' privacy but have an obligation to assist law enforcement and government agencies in ensuring the nation's security. "We prize the trust our customers place in us. If and when AT&T is asked to help, we do so strictly within the law and under the most stringent conditions," the company said in a statement, echoed by the others.
Bush did not confirm or deny the USA Today report. But he did say that U.S. intelligence targets terrorists and that the government does not listen to domestic telephone calls without court approval and that Congress has been briefed on intelligence programs.
He vowed to do everything in his power to fight terror and "we will do so within the laws of our country."
The companies said Thursday that they are protecting customers' privacy but have an obligation to assist law enforcement and government agencies in ensuring the nation's security. "We prize the trust our customers place in us. If and when AT&T is asked to help, we do so strictly within the law and under the most stringent conditions," the company said in a statement, echoed by the others.
The White House defended its overall eavesdropping program and said no domestic surveillance is conducted without court approval...
On Capitol Hill, several lawmakers expressed incredulity about the program, with some Republicans questioning the rationale and legal underpinning and several Democrats railing about the lack of congressional oversight.
"I don't know enough about the details except that I am willing to find out because I'm not sure why it would be necessary to keep and have that kind of information," said House Majority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio.
Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., told Fox News Channel: "The idea of collecting millions or thousands of phone numbers, how does that fit into following the enemy?"......
-AP story.
*****
Domestic Call Q&A
Is this legal?
That will be a matter of debate. In the past, law enforcement officials had to obtain a court warrant before getting calling records. Telecommunications law assesses hefty fines on phone companies that violate customer privacy by divulging such records without warrants. But in discussing the eavesdropping program last December, Bush said he has the authority to order the NSA to get information without court warrants.
Source: USA Today
Aaron in NM said...
ReplyDeletebart:However, DoD lawyers blocked Able Danger from warning the FBI about Atta and the Navy about the Cole attack and compelled the Able Danger team to destroy years worth of data base work because they were afraid it might be interpreted as invading the terrorist's privacy.
Please post a legitimate cite for this astonishing revelation.
There is an entire blog devoted to this program - http://abledangerblog.com. They give transcripts of the Congressional hearings and much more.
Also, Google around on this subject for more information.
This is fascinating stuff to me. This is one of the first attempts to use the net as an intelligence gathering tool.
bart: So long as they are not getting the identities of parties or content, I do not have an objection to this. Your telephone company has this information and is very likely selling it to marketing companies.
ReplyDeleteConsider this from Defense Tech:
Now, some people might find some small measure of comfort in the fact that this particular NSA effort is only looking at calling patterns -- not the contents of the calls themselves. Don't be. Back in January, we learned that this data-mining is directly leading to a "flood" of tips, given to the FBI, virtually all of which have led "to dead ends or innocent Americans." [my emphases]
I am an IP paralegal. We use e-mail to transmit drafts of patent applications back and forth to our inventor/clients. Interviews with examiners at the Patent Office or Trademark Office are often handled by telephone. This written and verbal correspondence is, evidently, available for NSA techno geeks to review. Oh, joy.
ReplyDeleteWhile the Trademark Office has had a system for on-line filing since 2003, the Patent Office finally developed a user-friendly on-line filing system in the last month or so. One can now file a patent application using the Patent Office on-line system by uploading the text and drawings in PDF format.
I cannot help but wonder just how confidential this information now is.
Bart said,
ReplyDeleteSo long as they are not getting the identities of parties...
Isn't all this information useless without the identities of the parties?
Your telephone company has this information and is very likely selling it to marketing companies.
Doesn't the phone company also have the identity information also?
__The addresses of postal mail including FedEx etc. that I send and and receive.
How would they do this?
With the cooperation of those involved. Is this a yes answer to this question or do you draw the line at physical mail?
the cynic librarian said...
ReplyDeletebart: Tell me again why we need to be upset at anything concerning this story except for the fact that USA Today told this to the enemy?
Bart, Just a general observation: We don't know yet what they are doing.
This is true. Congress' intel committees should look into this if they already haven't been briefed as they were with the NSA intercept program. That is their job.
What we do know is that people who do know what the NSA is doing felt so ambivalent about it that they risked prosecution by blowing the whistle on the program(s). You may not think that says something, but I think it says a lot.
You have no idea who is doing the leaking or what their reasons are. For example, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) is encouraging agents to illegally leak classified material simply because they disagree with Administration and its policies, not because anything being done is actually illegal. This is treason, not whistleblowing.
More to your assertion quoted above: Those high-paid corporate lawyers at Qwest sure did think there are legal and constituional problems involved.
They are seeking legal assurance from the government to protect the company from civil suits. I don't blame them. I would advise the same thing, especially since the CIA is leaking like a sieve and my company could not rely on the government to keep even their most top secret programs confidential.
Undercover Blue said...
ReplyDeletebart said..."Let's talk about what this program is all about. The telephone companies are sharing their billing records with the NSA. These records consist of essentially the telephone number making the call, the telephone number receiving the call and the time period of the call."
... and back in December we were told, don't worry, no domestic calls were being targeted. Now it looks like all of them.
Can you read for content? No one is alleging that NSA is listening to everyone's telephone calls.
It becomes more clear every day that the 32% that still approve of Bush's performance in office are the folks that wear tin foil on their heads when they go outdoors to prevent Russian satellites from reading their thoughts.
ReplyDeleteDon't be a MORON!
Its 31% and taking the margin of error into account, it could be a Nixonian 27% or lower!
Don't expect the MSM to report it in the 20's -- that will make it to obvious that chimpy's defenders are all the lunatic fringe.
That wouldn't be very "fair and balanced," would it?
Couldn't this database be used to negate all wiretaps as "fruit of the poisoned tree"?
ReplyDeleteSistah Toldja has written a devastating rebuttal of Glenn's post.
ReplyDeleteHer response?
Glenn's post is "completely unglued." Got that Glenn, QED, you're wrong. This is the real strength of America, folks. Democratic discourse at its finest.
bart: You have no idea who is doing the leaking or what their reasons are. For example, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) is encouraging agents to illegally leak classified material simply because they disagree with Administration and its policies, not because anything being done is actually illegal. This is treason, not whistleblowing.
ReplyDeleteWell, there's a simple solution to that, no? Let's get them before a committee, with all appropriate legal protections and job security ensured.
The problem is, the Senate Intel committee wouldn't do this for Russell Tice, who says he has information about illegal activities. Now not only do we have Tice saying bad things are afoot at NSA but also others (note the plural) blowing the whistle to USA Today. How many more people have to come out before you stop using the ad hominem, lame-footed slime attack?
An accompanying sidebar of Q&A on the NSA program has the following (noted by War & Piece):
Q: Does the NSA's domestic program mean that my calling records have been secretly collected?
A: In all likelihood, yes. The NSA collected the records of billions of domestic calls. Those include calls from home phones and wireless phones. [...]
Q: Who has access to my records?
A: Unclear. The NSA routinely provides its analysis and other cryptological work to the Pentagon and other government agencies. [my emphases]
When I brought this topic up in conversation, recently, someone told me not to blame Bush, that it started with Clinton and ECHELON. Anyone know the story on that, and whether it is actually relevant?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure, if I knew all about what the NSA program was doing that I would object to it. I have by doubts but it is beside the main point. The main point is that the President, authorized a program that was illegal at the time and then when called on it, declared that the law didn't apply to him.
ReplyDeleteNow all this is being defended on the basis of the difference between
"The executive Power shall be vested in a President " and "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress "
Apparently the lack of the "herein granted" is taken to mean that the President can do whatever the hell he wants and no one can stop him.
Does anybody seriously beleive that this what our founders intended?
the cynic librarian said...
ReplyDeletebart: So long as they are not getting the identities of parties or content, I do not have an objection to this. Your telephone company has this information and is very likely selling it to marketing companies.
Consider this from Defense Tech:
Now, some people might find some small measure of comfort in the fact that this particular NSA effort is only looking at calling patterns -- not the contents of the calls themselves. Don't be. Back in January, we learned that this data-mining is directly leading to a "flood" of tips, given to the FBI, virtually all of which have led "to dead ends or innocent Americans." [my emphases]
Either this blogger is a moron unable to read or he is lying.
The NSA Intercept of international calls to and from telephone numbers captured from al Qaeda is not a traditional data mining program. The NSA computer simply screens for certain words and phrases in the surveilled calls.
The Able Danger style data mining involves terabytes of information of all kinds and examines all of this unrelated information for patterns consistent with terrorism.
The bitch from an alleged and unidentified FBI source was that the poor FBI was turning up too many dry holes from the tips it got from the intercept program, which is not remotely similar to the data mining blown by USA Today.
Also, the fact that an anonymous alleged FBI source bitched about having work to hard has nothing at all to do with the fact that the NSA records data mining does not involve the content of our calls.
That is the same inherently corrupt motive which led the NSA to refuse to give DoJ lawyers security clearance to enable the DoJ to investigate whether their lawyers acted unethically in connection with the NSA illegal eavesdropping program.
ReplyDeleteI’m far more alarmed by this, really, than what I know so far of the pen registry-type program. There is a basis, a good one, for believing the govt will misbehave even when subject to FIS Court oversight, so imagine how it carries on outside of the Court. As this May 2002 Opinion from the FIS Court shows, the FBI has frequently engaged in improper shenanigans, thus meriting a judicial smackdown and an investigation by the Office of Professional Responsibility.
One need not read the following to understand the substantive law; the law has changed some since this was issued, and the point is simply the fact of improprieties and an OPR investigation, and a Court that announced it still had received no satisfactory explanations for various misbehaviors:
In September 2000, the government came forward to confess error in some 75 FISA applications related to major terrorist attacks directed agaiinst the United States. The errors related to misstatements and omissions of material facts. including:
a. an erroneous statement in the FBI Director's FISA certification that the target of the FISA was not under criminal investigation;
b. erroneous statements in the FISA affidavits of FBI agents concealing the separation of the overlapping intelligence and criminal investigations, and the unauthorized sharing of FISA information with FBI criminal investigators and assistant U.S. attorneys;
c. omissions of material facts from FBI FISA affidavits relating to a prior relationship between the FBI and a FISA target, and the interview of a FISA target by an assistant U.S. attorney.
In November of 2000, the Court held a special meeting to consider the troubling number of inaccurate FBI affidavits in so many FISA applications. After receiving a more detailed explanation from the Department of Justice about what went wrong, but not why, the Court decided not to accept inaccurate affidavits from FBI agents whether or not intentionally false. One FBI agent was barred from appearing before the Court as a FISA affiant. The Court decided to await the results of the investigation by the Justice Department's Office of Professional Responsibility before taking further action.
In March of 2001, the government reported similar misstatements in another series of FISA applications in which there was supposedly a "wall" between separate intelligence and criminal squads in FBI field offices to screen FISA intercepts, when in fact all of the FBI agents were on the same squad and all of the screening was done by the one supervisor overseeing both investigations.
…In virtually every instance, the government's misstatements and omissions in FISA applications and violations of the Court's orders involved information sharing and unauthorized disseminations to criminal investigators and prosecutors. These incidents have been under investigation by the FBI's and the Justice Department's Offices of Professional Responsibility for more than one year to determine how the violations occurred in the field offices, and how the misinformation found its way into the FISA applications and remained uncorrected for more than one year despite procedures to verify the accuracy of FISA pleadings. As of this date, no report has been published, and how these misrepresentations occurred remains unexplained to the Court.
So that's the corruption that occurs when there is oversight from the Court and the OPR. But when Bush says "trust me," we should meekly do so.
I am quite certain that when the lid blows on all this, there will be much rot underneath.
Glenn, it is important to note that if the NSA and/or administration can keep track of even just calling patterns, that there is a serious potential for abuse there. Knowing, for example, that Joe Everyman called an ACLU lawyer several times, is information that could be used against him, even if the content of the conversations is not known.
ReplyDeleteThat fact should bear heavily on the legality of the program.
thelastnamechosen said...
ReplyDeleteBart said, So long as they are not getting the identities of parties...
Isn't all this information useless without the identities of the parties?
Apparently not.
Bart: Your telephone company has this information and is very likely selling it to marketing companies.
Doesn't the phone company also have the identity information also?
How does the telephone company know who is using the telephone? They know the customer information, but not who is using the phone.
__The addresses of postal mail including FedEx etc. that I send and and receive.
How would they do this?
With the cooperation of those involved. Is this a yes answer to this question or do you draw the line at physical mail?
I am not sure. If they cannot gather the information, it is a moot question.
anon: ...someone told me not to blame Bush, that it started with Clinton and ECHELON. Anyone know the story on that, and whether it is actually relevant?
ReplyDeleteActually, there's much speculation that the present-day NSA program is based on R&D done under Reagan's NSA director, John Poindexter. This program was outlawed but many sources think it was just renamed and moved under wraps to a corner of the NSA. Once Bush decided to unilaterally spy on Americans, he brought that Poindexter program to the fore.
How this puts the onus on anyone else but Bush is beyond me. He's the one who signs the documents. Oh, I forgot, the buck doesn't stop with Bush it gets spent at the local NSA Radio Shack so he has "deniability."
The Domestic Law Enforcement component
ReplyDeleteNoteworthy, the reference in the USAToday piece that NSA is sharing the fruits with the Drug Enforcement Agency.
Local and federal Narcs have been routinely getting Number Dialed records for drug investigations, by simple request, since the early '80s, as a preliminary step when they don't have enough for a search warrant. Not sure when this datadump came to include local calls, somewhere between 1984 and 1994.
There was a rumor circulating among marijuana defence attorneys back in 1982 that the DEA had grabbed records of all long distance calls placed from payphones to and from Tuscon, and from there was datamining the recipient numbers.
the cynic librarian said...
ReplyDeletebart: You have no idea who is doing the leaking or what their reasons are. For example, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) is encouraging agents to illegally leak classified material simply because they disagree with Administration and its policies, not because anything being done is actually illegal. This is treason, not whistleblowing.
Well, there's a simple solution to that, no? Let's get them before a committee, with all appropriate legal protections and job security ensured.
Hell no! The leakers had this opportunity before going to the press. I am not going to give them immunity so they can spill their guts and slide like Ollie North.
Bring them before criminal grand juries and make them testify or take the 5th. Then, if you have the evidence, bring them to criminal trials. Let the judge determine if they can argue the Whistleblower defense.
Bart said,
ReplyDeleteI am not sure. If they cannot gather the information, it is a moot question.
Come on Bart, the mail gets delivered. Of course they can collect the information. You obviously have a specific reason for not answering this question. Care to share?
Bart: The bitch from an alleged and unidentified FBI source was that the poor FBI was turning up too many dry holes from the tips it got from the intercept program, which is not remotely similar to the data mining blown by USA Today.
ReplyDeleteDefense Tech disagrees:
More than a dozen current and former law enforcement and counterterrorism officials, including some in the small circle who knew of the secret eavesdropping program and how it played out at the F.B.I., said the torrent of tips led them to few potential terrorists inside the country they did not know of from other sources and diverted agents from counterterrorism work they viewed as more productive.
"We'd chase a number, find it's a schoolteacher with no indication they've ever been involved in international terrorism - case closed," said one former F.B.I. official, who was aware of the program and the data it generated for the bureau. "After you get a thousand numbers and not one is turning up anything, you get some frustration..."
Officials who were briefed on the N.S.A. program said the agency collected much of the data passed on to the F.B.I. as tips by tracing phone numbers in the United States called by suspects overseas, and then by following the domestic numbers to other numbers called. In other cases, lists of phone numbers appeared to result from the agency's computerized scanning of communications coming in and out of the country for names and keywords that might be of interest. The deliberate blurring of the source of the tips caused some frustration among those who had to follow up.
Here is some perspective concerning the data being used by the CIA. There are dozens of private companies who gather publicly available data concerning your name, aliases, DOB, addresses, telephone numbers, criminal record, who is living with you, and other personal information and sells it for a fee.
ReplyDeleteI use such a service to check out clients and witnesses.
bart: Here is some perspective concerning the data being used by the CIA. There are dozens of private companies who gather publicly available data concerning your name, ...
ReplyDeleteHow disingenuous is this? All of that commercial data collection is regulated by laws. Indeed, there's tremendous oversight of this activity, as there should be. In fact, I can even get a record of it--the comapneis are required to provide me one on request.
OTOH for you to equate the CIA's data collection with credit reporting and corporate background checks is absurd. It's a false analogy. What the CIA does and can potentially do with that data is vastly different from what data collection companies can do with that data.
There's an added dimesion in the fact that the CIA, via the NSA, is capable of acquiring more data than any of these commercial companies can. The fact that ATT set up a hub for the NSA to log all calls and other telecommunications is obviously something that commercial comapnies can't do.
Here’s the surprise.
ReplyDeleteWhen and if the Bush administration does attack Iran it will unleash a massive wave of terrorist attacks.
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/US_military_seen_ready_for_Iran_0511.html
Since we have steadfastly refused to secure our own borders and protect sensitive installations throughout the country these places will find themselves easily exploited by suicide bombers.
Action in Iran will, obviously, inflame the rest of Europe and the world against us. Targeting our civilians in the area will be seen as justified throughout the middle east and in the radical Muslim communities in Europe.
I also bet that Russia will seek to rearm and seek a policy of containment against our aggression.
China may be put under pressure by the international community to reduce its buying of US treasuries.
Bush called this word war three just days ago.
Is he intent on starting it?
-----Anonymous, at 12:21 pm., said,
ReplyDelete"I am anxiously awaiting the the response from the Bush Cultists. How will they defend this?"
Here's a sample, from David Ensor at CNN:
This has probably been lawyered out pretty thoroughly by the telephone company lawyers and the US government. It's unlikely they're gonna find law-breaking... I'd be a little surprised to hear that any laws have been broken because companies and governments go into this kind of thing with their eyes pretty wide open.
Some lawyers, like Glenn, excel in marshalling cogent arguments to defend one side of an issue. Others, apparently the type to whom Ensor refers, prefer to assess the likelihood that an issue will ever reach a court or any other formal forum. The government and companies involved indeed have their eyes pretty wide open. They are confident, not in the rightness of their cause, but in the belief that BushCo™ will continue to succeed in keeping this issue far from any meaningful scrutiny. The mainstream media will then use this fact to catapult the propaganda that this is legal.
Perhaps a new terminology needs to be coined for this quasilegal state, where something is flagrantly wrong, but whaddayagonnadoaboutit applies.
With no oversight by Congress, and no HINT of journalistic integrity in the US, whaddayagonnadoaboutit seems to be the new prevailing legal principle.
the cynic librarian said...
ReplyDeletebart: Here is some perspective concerning the data being used by the CIA. There are dozens of private companies who gather publicly available data concerning your name, ...
OTOH for you to equate the CIA's data collection with credit reporting and corporate background checks is absurd. It's a false analogy. What the CIA does and can potentially do with that data is vastly different from what data collection companies can do with that data.
That is true. NSA is using this data to hunt down al Qaeda cells like the Atta 9/11 cell which Able Danger found. The company I am using will sell the data for any reason to anyone, including criminals.
How does that weigh on your moral scales?
There's an added dimesion in the fact that the CIA, via the NSA, is capable of acquiring more data than any of these commercial companies can. The fact that ATT set up a hub for the NSA to log all calls and other telecommunications is obviously something that commercial comapnies can't do.
This is also true. I merely wanted to give the people here a little bit of perspective about their real life "privacy."
The datamining geeks at wired.com take the Prez's statement and add pointed commentary and objections. The money quote:
ReplyDelete[Bush said] Fourth, the privacy of ordinary Americans is fiercely protected in all our activities. We are not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of Americans. Our efforts are focused on links to Al Qaeda and their known affiliates. So far we have been very successful at preventing another attack on our soil.
[Geek says] This by far is the most revealing remark. USA Today reported that the NSA is looking through the database for patterns of communications that resemble a terrorist network. That is exactly what the controversial Total Information Awareness system was intended to do.
Instead the president seems to be saying that the NSA is starting somewhere. Perhaps they start with the phone number of an Al Qaeda operative overseas and see what numbers they call in the United States. Then from there, the NSA can daisy chain to see what numbers are called by those people. Another highly likely starting place is the 340,000 name long terrorist watch list. If you use those as the starting point for your investigation, you could plausibly say that the NSA is not 'mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of Americans.' [boldface in the original]
This is all the fault of the Clenis(TM).
ReplyDeletebart: I merely wanted to give the people here a little bit of perspective about their real life "privacy."
ReplyDeletewired.com geek (commenting on Bush's speech):
This is largely a canard. Al Qaeda has known for more than a decade that the United States has a finely tuned ear, can spy on international communications and uses wiretaps extensively within the United States.
Knowing that the government has a database of every call placed by every American citizen since 2001 and possibly earlier is of no help to Al Qaeda operatives, though they might take some measure of pleasure at how far their monstrous attacks have pushed the American government. [my emphasis]
What they are doing sounds like a pen register, which is governed by the following language in 18 USC 3121:
ReplyDelete(a) In General.— Except as provided in this section, no person may install or use a pen register or a trap and trace device without first obtaining a court order under section 3123 of this title or under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.).
(b) Exception.— The prohibition of subsection (a) does not apply with respect to the use of a pen register or a trap and trace device ***by a provider of electronic or wire communication service***—
(1) relating to the operation, maintenance, and testing of a wire or electronic communication service or to the protection of the rights or property of such provider, or to the protection of users of that service from abuse of service or unlawful use of service; or
(2) to record the fact that a wire or electronic communication was initiated or completed in order to protect such provider, another provider furnishing service toward the completion of the wire communication, or a user of that service, from fraudulent, unlawful or abusive use of service; or (3) where the consent of the user of that service has been obtained.
(c) Limitation.— A government agency authorized to install and use a pen register or trap and trace device under this chapter or under State law shall use technology reasonably available to it that restricts the recording or decoding of electronic or other impulses to the dialing, routing, addressing, and signaling information utilized in the processing and transmitting of wire or electronic communications so as not to include the contents of any wire or electronic communications.
(d) Penalty.— Whoever knowingly violates subsection (a) shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.
The reason that the NSA didn't want to have to talk to a judge is that they'd have to convince them that the taps related to the property of the communications provider or that the other exception applied. Good luck with that.
Do we need any more evidence that this is blatantly illegal?
(definitions of pen register pasted below).
the term “pen register” means a device or process which records or decodes dialing, routing, addressing, or signaling information transmitted by an instrument or facility from which a wire or electronic communication is transmitted, provided, however, that such information shall not include the contents of any communication, but such term does not include any device or process used by a provider or customer of a wire or electronic communication service for billing, or recording as an incident to billing, for communications services provided by such provider or any device or process used by a provider or customer of a wire communication service for cost accounting or other like purposes in the ordinary course of its business;
(4) the term “trap and trace device” means a device or process which captures the incoming electronic or other impulses which identify the originating number or other dialing, routing, addressing, and signaling information reasonably likely to identify the source of a wire or electronic communication, provided, however, that such information shall not include the contents of any communication;
(Cross-posted at tpmcafe)
bart: The company I am using will sell the data for any reason to anyone, including criminals.
ReplyDeleteHow does that weigh on your moral scales?
Oh, so now we are to weigh the actions of our government against the actions of criminals? How's that for justice? Because criminals do it, we can do it. The ends justifying the means has not been a great ethically sustainable argument, Bart.
But then--flash of light--I begin to see a glimmer of something beyond simple statement of your ethical superficiality in these statements. You are really being ironic here right? You are--tongue in cheek--saying that the NSA activities are tanatamount to what criminals do. In effect, ironically, this type of datamining and sharing of information is what criminals do, so that's what out govt is stooping to: criminality.
Wow, bart, you are an ironic genius. Your Stephen Colbert-like schtick really had me going there!
We had our accountability moment in November 2004, and apparently we chose a dictatorship.
ReplyDelete"Chose?" There was a choice? Both levers had a "D" on them. In code, of course.
As they will in the next election.
One of the more disturbing aspects of this NSA scandal is that it's led to few, if any, real leads to terrorists. All those millions, maybe billions, of phone calls logged and bupkus.
ReplyDeleteHow more shocking would it be if the NSA program(s) actually don't even work? That's the finding of a leading "leading authority on social network analysis."
According to Defense Tech:
The worst part -- the thing that's most disappointing to me -- is that this [NSA wiretapping] is not the right way to do this. It's a waste of time, a waste of resources. And it lets the real terrorists run free. [my emphasis]
Kerry spoke on this issue today and came out firing - http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=2951
ReplyDeleteTo those who think that talking about possible legal action is getting nothing done, what the fuck do you want us to do? Buy a load of shotguns and start an armed rebellion? I don't see that getting far. Building legal groundwork takes a long time, but if you get it right the first time, you might just, oh, WIN THE GOD-DAMN CASE!
ReplyDeleteJesus Tap-dancing Christ.
And to the anonymous Einsteins out there, I'm terribly proud of you and stand in slack-jawed, glassy-eyed wonder at your brilliance. Now shut the fuck up. If someone is asking an honest question in good faith, calling them an idiot for not having the answer just makes you a douchbag.
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002399.html
ReplyDeletehume's ghost: "Sistah Toldja has written a devastating rebuttal of Glenn's post... Glenn's post is "completely unglued."
ReplyDeletePosted this in response:
Sister Toldjah: "Look for Qwest to be given hero status by the hate-Bush wing of the Democratic party..."
I think you might want to change "the hate-Bush wing of the Democratic party" to:
"the 65% of the American public who disapprove of the job Bush is doing";
or,
"the 76% of the country who are concerned and creeped out by the program."
Perhaps it is better to be 'unglued' than glued to the policies and authoritarianism of Bush and his administration?
For the life of me, I can't understand how any true conservative can continue supporting this administration and domestic intelligence gathering activities, which have clearly crossed the constitutional right we possess to be "secure in our homes" without gov't interference.
Between one party rule and domestice eavesdropping, Bush has gone the way of the Soviets and totalitarianism.
If that what you want to support, go for it.
But please stop disgracing the name of conservatives. Call yourselves Authoritarians, Totalitarians, Fascists, Oligarchians, or Executive Unitarians for all I care.
But there is nothing conservative in this intelligence collecting of the phone records of all Americans, and associating such actions with the support of conservativism is reprehensible, and a slur to all good conservatives.
My conservative credentials are strong. And I know a little something about the law. And I think the legality of this program is questionable at best, and certainly distasteful.
ReplyDeleteThat said ... man, you moonbats on the left are going to drive most people on the right to agree with Bush just because you are so crazy.
Let's start with the fact that the link to National Review that asserts they say the program is "completely legal" actually doesn't even come close to saying that. Blatant misrepresentation on Glenn's part.
Speaking of misrepresentation, if the DOJ did not actually approve of this program -- and that they would not provide a letter from the AG backing the program certainly is not significant evidence supporting that claim -- it would pretty much be a first, even though Glenn claims this has happened "again and again." The one additional example he comes up with was about an ethics investigation, which is completely different from what we're looking at here, which is legal review.
Continuing in reverse order, Glenn's quotes from the Federalist, while interesting, are question-begging. I could go on about this in great detail, but the bottom line is that if a law was broken here -- and Glenn admits he does not know -- then Congress can change the law, and it can sue the President in Court to stop the program, and the program was known by the Congress, and by definition this all means that the President is not usurping the authority of the other two branches.
If he were, there would be no possible recourse. But, of course, there is. And a just-as-reasonable case could be made that Congress is just as guilty of usurping the authority of the other branches, as it tries to force its interpretation of law on the President, which it has no legal authority to do, without Court approval. Note how the Congress rarely actually sues the President, though this is the proper method for forcing the President to comply with a law they think he is violating. Why do you think that is?
Remember the Cheney task force? They tried to usurp executive authority, and the Court slapped them down. They don't want to do that again. Yet they still do what they can to force their will on the President, usurping his authority, such as when they essentially forced Rice (as NSA advisor) to testify under oath, something they have no right to do.
Again, I think this program is probably a bad on. And I actually agree with Madison that Congress is, and should be, the dominant branch of government (most people think the branches are coequal, but they are wrong). But just because I think Congress should dominate, and just because I think this program is bad, doesn't mean I will agree with you that Bush is grabbing the power of a monarch and that Congress gets to say so.
If Congress thinks this program is wrong -- the wiretapping program too -- then they should sue the administration to stop those programs. Let the Court decide. And if the administration, in the end, is found to be in the wrong, and still continues with the program, at that time I will agree with those who say he is usurping the Court's authority.
But go ahead, keep claiming Bush stole the election in 00 or 04, keep accusing Bush of being the worst President ever, keep being absolutely bonkers. And the voters on the right will hear you, and become so disgusted by your lack of sanity that they will come to the polls in droves just to make sure your guys don't win.
Seriously. You can attack this program while not being batshit insane. And it will only help your side if you do it. Not that I want your side to be helped ... so really, don't let me stop you ...
laughing gravy:
ReplyDeleteIt becomes more clear every day that the 32% that still approve of Bush's performance in office are the folks that wear tin foil on their heads when they go outdoors to prevent Russian satellites from reading their thoughts.
Comrade tovarich, eet vorrrks! Veee seeee nada! Veee cann't see any thooots there at alll....
Cheers,
HWSNBN sez:
ReplyDelete3) Why does the NSA need to give Justice attorneys the highest level of security clearance when it has its own attorneys to consult?
"Why do you keep insisting on your own lawyer? We'll give you one of ours...."
The troll HWSNBN marches on in defence of the growing protofascism....
Cheers,
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteLet's talk about what this program is all about. The telephone companies are sharing their billing records with the NSA. These records consist of essentially the telephone number making the call, the telephone number receiving the call and the time period of the call.
And that should require a court order or a subpoena.
As Qwest was prescient enough to say:
Tell it to the judge!
Cheers,
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteWhen I brought this topic up in conversation, recently, someone told me not to blame Bush, that it started with Clinton and ECHELON. Anyone know the story on that, and whether it is actually relevant?
Echelon is (part of) the Menwith Hill facility in the U.K. Located there so that it doesn't violate FISA law. You don't need a FISA warrant to tap international calls from locations outside the U.S., provided you're not "targeting" a "U.S. person". The U.S. has, for a long time, snooped promiscuously on communications overseas, and since it's all overseas and targeting foregn persons, no harm, no foul (except to the furriners, who sometimes get upset, but who they gonna call?)
Cheers,
Knowing, for example, that Joe Everyman called an ACLU lawyer several times, is information that could be used against him, even if the content of the conversations is not known.
ReplyDeleteMore likely, knowing that Joe Congressman or Fred Newspaperman has been calling a pedophile sex ring, the NSA or FBI makes sure that Joe Congressman doesn't demand any of that nasty Congressional oversight of the government's wiretapping operations or that Fred Newspaperman forgets about investigating the FBI agent's purchase of that Lamborghini.
The Cynic Librarian:
ReplyDeleteActually, there's much speculation that the present-day NSA program is based on R&D done under Reagan's NSA director, John Poindexter....
Poindexter was never DIRNSA.
IIRC, Bobby Inman was, forf at leats part of the time. FWIW, Inman has recently come out and stated that the current program is likely not legal.
But Inman did a job back then WRT the DES key size; thanks to him and NSA, even a PC nowadays can crack the code used by, for instance, ATMs in communicating to the bank....
Cheers,
DON'T WORRY. BE HAPPY. (You too, size 12 boot)
ReplyDeleteEveryone is getting too negative on this blog.
It's easy to always look at the glass and see it as 76% empty.
But think positive. We now know that 24% of the people in this country are not pedophiles combing the web looking for prey.
That same 24% are not involved in human traffickking which uses telephones, credit cards, the Internet.
The only dark cloud is that the 24% doesn't include any elected politicians.
For every piece of, er, damaging information Elected Politician X has on Elected Politician Y, Y has two on X.
Situation under control. It's a wash.
To Size 12 Boot: Ve have seen ze videotapes. Your designated targets will more than easily accomodate your foot. Proceed as planned.
You can start with Pat Roberts who assures us everything being done is legal, and it's necessary to protect our safety. Besides, Al Queda isn't entitled to Fourth Amendment protection. The real threat to this nation is all these damn leaks and he sure hopes there won't be any more of them.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeletePerhaps my point is too abstruse for you to comprehend?
There really are many morons here, but we try to get along with them.
Don't ya just love the condenscending attitude of people that proclaim to be technical wizards and information specialists, yet they cannot grasp the underlying meaning of a simple question or statement?
Very smart people, regardless of who they voted for, still want to believe their government isn't as bad, or worse, than Ronnie's "evil empire". That's Pollyannaish. I didn't see anyone here claim to be "technical wizards" or "information specialists". Quite the opposite, in fact. If you still think that "discrepancies" in conflicting "statements" about what this criminal dictatorship is doing are important or relevant, you haven't been paying attention. You are in fact, asking dumb questions. Choose the option that is the greater evil and horror know that doesn't even come close to the awful truth. How many times to you have to get slappped in the face with a dead fish to know something stinks rotten?
Jan rooth said...I started off pointing out a discrepancy between two statements made with regard to this program and suggesting that this was something to pursue.
Anderson, Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton, nobody, Gore, and Kerry. Thanks for asking.
You voted for Dukakis?
notherbob2: I call ad hominem. Anyway, having looked up earlier posts, Glenn's *real* motivation is clearly to restore the rule of law to this country. ;-)
ReplyDeleteBart, you are a troll. The grounds for believing that the program is illegal have been listed repeatedly *on this blog*: it violates multiple customer privacy laws on the part of the phone companies, and the surveillance laws on the part of the government. Take your pick.
ReplyDeleteIt is not even worth listening to you.
Glenn, forget banning anons. Ban bart.
bart:
ReplyDelete"This is true. Congress' intel committees should look into this if they already haven't been briefed as they were with the NSA intercept program. That is their job."
Still in denial! They weren't properly briefed for the NSA program. Pelosi requested a list of names who were *informed* of the program -- and the administration classified *that*! Look it up.
They have no chance. The Bush administration simply refuses to cooperate with any Congressional investigation. The Congressional "Republicans" appear so intent on covering up for him that they won't even *launch* investigations. They're still preventing the end of the Intelligence committee's 9/11 investigation, for chrissake!
"and the program was known by the Congress,"
ReplyDeleteFavorite canard of the trolls here today!
The program was not known by the Congress. It was revealed in USA Today.
Buy a clue, trolls!
Hi liberals, your friend Karl here. Forgive me for stating the obvious but your dispute with Republicans is the so-called narcissism of minor differences, "a convenient and relatively harmless satisfaction of the inclination to aggression, by means of which cohesion between the members of the community is made easier." (Freud). The very idea of America, capital accumulation, is common to both parties. American politics are simply the political weapon of money, and the media is the means through which money operates in a liberal democracy. Not once in your history has a politician, whether Democrat or Republican, espoused or implemented a policy that did not set in motion and ultimately serve only money, with the predictable results you are beginning to notice: accelerating social and economic inequality; declining marginal returns with regard to investments in organizational solutions to socioeconomic problems; ever-deepening hierarchies of control -- the obsession with law and order in your “culture” is telling -- missing white women, hello? -- not to mention historically unprecedented rates of incarceration, NSA eavesdropping, and so on; rapidly dropping levels of literacy, critical understanding, and general intellectual awareness; the emptying out of cultural content and its replacement with kitsch and commercialism. It’s no accident the dumbest man in the world was elected President twice in a row. It’s what representative in the term representative democracy means.
ReplyDeleteThe tragic comedy of the narcissism of minor differences is that both sides are simply assisting money to be more effective. One cannot even call this corruption, because it is in fact the necessary end of your system, and the reason your system is quickly coming to an end.
Did you think America was immortal?
Karl Marx
Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18
ReplyDeleteSection 2703. Required disclosure of customer communications or records
(c) Records Concerning Electronic Communication Service or Remote Computing Service. -- (1) A governmental entity may require a provider of electronic communication service or remote computing service to disclose a record or other information pertaining to a subscriber to or customer of such service (not including the contents of communications) ONLY when the government entity -- (A) obtains a warrant issued using the procedures described in the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure by a court with jurisdiction over the offense under investigation or equivalent State warrant; (B) obtains a court order for such disclosure under subsection (d) of this section; (C) has the consent of the subscriber or customer to such disclosure...
(d) Requirements for Court Order. -- A court order for disclosure under subsection (b) or (c) may be issued by any court that is a court of competent jurisdiction and shall issue only if the governmental entity offers specific and articulable facts showing that there are reasonable grounds to believe that the contents of a wire or electronic communication, or the records of the information sought, are relevant and material to an ongoing criminal investigation. In the case of a State governmental authority, such a court order shall not issue if prohibited by the law of such State. A court issuing an order pursuant to this section, on a motion made promptly by the service provider, may quash or modify such order, if the information or records requested are voluminous in nature or compliance with such order otherwise would cause an undue burden on such provider.
pudge said...
ReplyDeleteMy conservative credentials are strong. And I know a little something about the law. And I think the legality of this program is questionable at best, and certainly distasteful.
That said ... man, you moonbats on the left are going to drive most people on the right to agree with Bush just because you are so crazy.
He can have you. He's welcome to ya. All 31% of you. Thanks for playing.
Baby picture of Pudge.
ReplyDeleteHow do we sue the phone company?
ReplyDeleteJan Rooth said...
ReplyDelete"Now can we get back to the issue? I never disputed the technical capability, I questioned how two particular statements being made about this particular program can possibly be reconciled.
Maybe the answer is the one you're proposing. But if so, the statement that this program only collects "external" data is false. This was precisly my point - that the likelihood that this claim is false needs to be seriously examined."
Jan, the only thing I can say is that we all have been so continuosly lied to by this Administration that I would recommend that you consider any claim they make false until proven otherwise.
If Bush says it is daylight outside I check my clock and then go to the door and look outside to see for myself before believing it.
anonymous:
ReplyDeleteI didn't see anyone here claim to be "technical wizards" or "information specialists".
Well, I'll admit to a lot of background here ... and to a fair amount of experience in wiretap equipment and technology. But I did go to law school.... *cue Holiday Inn Express theme*
Cheers,
Your statement in the article....
ReplyDeleteThat has all changed. We now learn that when Americans call their Aunt Millie, or their girlfriend, or their psychiatrist, or their drug counselor, or their priest or rabbi, or their lawyer, or anyone and everyone else, the Government is very interested. In fact, they are so interested that they make note of it and keep it forever, so that at any time, anyone in the Government can look at a record of every single person whom every single American ever called or from whom they received a call. It doesn't take a professional privacy advocate to find that creepy, invasive, dangerous and un-American.
My comment....
AS an ordained minister I am sure many of my parisioners are going to be just agast when they finally figure out what You and I know. That their 'private call' to me is in somebody's database. I could be accused of 'breaking the confessional' when it would be just another 'government leak' that lets someone know who called me. Since I live in maryland, NSA territory, maybe the 'analyst' recognizes my number, the number of his wife, and wonders 'why'?
anon: "[Bush] can have you. He's welcome to ya. All 31% of you. Thanks for playing."
ReplyDeleteAccording to the latest Harris poll, that's down to 29% now. And that poll was taken *before* the latest NSA scandal hit the wires.
Minister in Maryland said...
ReplyDelete"My comment....
AS an ordained minister I am sure many of my parisioners are going to be just agast when they finally figure out what You and I know. That their 'private call' to me is in somebody's database. I could be accused of 'breaking the confessional' when it would be just another 'government leak' that lets someone know who called me. Since I live in maryland, NSA territory, maybe the 'analyst' recognizes my number, the number of his wife, and wonders 'why'?"
An excellent point. Glad you posted here tonight.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteHow do we sue the phone company?
11:25 PM
Small claims court. I'll respam a thought from the upper thread wherein a fellow asked...
Why do I need the ACLU of EFF? Can I just go down to my local police station and make out a complaint that " The Stored Communications Act prohibits the telephone companies from disclosing such information to the government unless they receive a subpoena or a court order for the records. 18 U.S.C. 2702(c), 2703 (c)." and that I have reason to believe that someone has done that with my phone records without a FISA warrent?
They will tell you it's a civil matter, which it is. Your best bet is to organize as many people as possible to flood the local small claims courts all over the country with nuisance suits against the Telcos. This method was used quite effectively by multiple affected members of a community filing individual cases against slumlords who owned crack houses and refused to do anything about them. Sometimes, for whatever reason, the actions of the local police just dealt with individual bad actors, but never addressed the underlying problem, that being an unscrupulous landlord was getting 5 times market value rent for a house that wasn't fit to live in. There's that wondeful laissez faire capitalism at work again.
Thousands and thousands of small claims actions filed against the telcos, in conjunction with the actions by the ACLU and EFF, no matter how frivolous or hopeless, would send a clear message, and in cases where a judge found merit, and there may be many of those, there wouldn't be enough corporate lawyers to go around. And most corporate lawyers have less of a clue about the small claims laws, courts and procedures, than you or I. No lawyers allowed. A representative of the Telco, probably an attorney, would have to appear on their behalf. Remember to name the top guy, the CEO, as a defendant. Nolo Press has books on the small claims procedures. Before Bushco, there were small claims clinics offered by your local and municipal courts. It would be like a modern day Boston Tea party. The Tea Party was directed at the corporations of the day as it was the Crown,
Why the Colonists Feared Corporations
In which the citizens of Boston demonstrate the use of the hatchet as an anti-monopoly device (1770-1773)
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteanonymous:
I didn't see anyone here claim to be "technical wizards" or "information specialists".
Well, I'll admit to a lot of background here ... and to a fair amount of experience in wiretap equipment and technology. But I did go to law school.... *cue Holiday Inn Express theme*
Cheers,
1:07 AM
Arne says "cheers" an awful lot. I just hope he's not tipping a glass every time he does. ;)
Gris Lobo said @ 12:01 AM ...
Jan Rooth said...
I was a bit confused by, and suspicious of, this fellow, too. What kind of Democrat still trusts this administration? His own party no longer trusts him, for Chrissake!
Six Footprints and No Screams (from us all) Why?
ReplyDelete1. Both the 4th amendment AND the FISA law explicitly call for "probable cause", not 'professional judgement' or 'reasonable cause'.
2. Simple FISA translation: if you need to, do what you will, but tell us no later than 72 hours afterward: i.e. FISA is no impediment or argument on the grounds of 'FISA will slow our ops cycle down'.
3. When will the other 'NSA' foot drop? There are TWO great US domestic phone call spying scandals in play right now - but only one is receiving headlines - Now why is that? - since they're both doing the same thing but in different ways, and the one that isn't being written about is surely more threatening and more likely to result in political and commercial blackmail material. Why is the MSM not screaming about AMDOCS? Or is AMDOCS in media?
AMDOCS (an Israeli company) does the billing for more than 80% of all doemstic US traffic. Both reports and media write-ups over the last 5 years or so claim and otherwise document that Amdocs - along with 'sister' firm Comverse (also an Israeli firm) are traffic analysing and selectively recording virtually every phone call in the US - and could be passing information on to the Israeli government (surely not huh?!). Don't take my word for it: Google "AMDOCS" and become very afraid.
4. Producing the complete lists of those the NSA is specifically monitoring (to the appropriate Senate and House entities).
It's never going to happen because, as written in the blog, there is the curious behaviour of NSA in response to Quest's request for a court ruling (from FISA) or a DoJ clarification. Thus here's the billion dollar question:
5. "Do you now or have you ever monitored a member of the US House of Representatives, or a member of the US Senate?" No one will answer this question. Yet, if it should ever come to light that this has occurred, I'll bet on the following, twisted argument that exploits a resonance in American (and world perceptions):
Investigator: "Why? Why spy on House and Senate memebers?
"NSA: "9/11".
Investigator: "9/11?"
NSA:"From an exhaustive analysis of public and, private, and secret data we've come to the conclusion that 9/11 cannot have occurred without significant and high-level domestic assistance. High-level assistance."
Invesitgator: "Are you trying to say some members of the House and/or Senate KNEW about or assisted 9/11?".
NSA:"No. We've reasonable grounds (not probable cause) for thinking so and need - in the face of so possible and gigantic a risk, to determine once and for all if it's so. Hence the surveillance program."
My take: Dumbya is Nixon and he's got everyone (535 House and Senate members) in his sights (on tape or disk). Except Dumbya's just the "face" of the puppet master - and Chinny-Rummy-Camby-Cond(y)-Johnny-Elly-Bolty-et al are the puppet master's fingers and hands.
6. Anybody ever think that the 750+ Signing Statements Bush has appended to executive orders, bills, laws, etc signed by him amount to one of the clearest ever sets of evidence by a head of state for war crimes? Every one of his "employees" can point upward and say "the boss's doing, don't ask me, I just follow orders around here" [I know, I know, since the WWII Nuremburg Trials 'just following orders' isn't supposed to stop a judicial bullet of any kind - but then again, Nuremburg was unequivocal about the grounds for invading another country (Hitler's pre-eminent crime) without immeditae, proximate, and threatening cause [my words, their sense].
In summary: If the NSA is so disturbing then AMDOCS ought scare the living day lights out of us! And you just know they both know about each other (Comverse too). Is this like one burglar bumping into another on the same job? - Or is there an even deeper evil about the jobs they're both pulling?
Look, you asked a dumb question you thought was smart. Leave it at that, (or blow me). As Fukuyama said (recalling Moynihan) on TDS last night, (a news source I suggest you avail yourself of), some mistakes can only be made by Ph.D.s.
ReplyDeleteanonymous:
ReplyDeleteArne says "cheers" an awful lot. I just hope he's not tipping a glass every time he does. ;)
Wish I was. :-)
It would be like watching a Dubya SOTU and downing a shot everytime Dubya says "terrah" or "9/11". About the only way to enjoy such. Although quite painful the next morning.
Cheers,
x-y-no said... lots of foul words and obscene language I didn't bother to read.
ReplyDeleteI like anonymous because through the magic that is Google and the internets, I already know more about you than I ever wanted to. Look, Jan... STFU and go back to watching Chris Matthews and reading Richard Cohen. They are your kind of people. By all means, stay here as long as you like and just ignore all 50 of me, mmk?
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteanonymous:
Arne says "cheers" an awful lot. I just hope he's not tipping a glass every time he does. ;)
Wish I was. :-)
It would be like watching a Dubya SOTU and downing a shot everytime Dubya says "terrah" or "9/11". About the only way to enjoy such. Although quite painful the next morning.
Tell me about it. No don't, because for medical reasons I am not allowed to indulge in either of the the more common means of self-medication and stress relief (wait, there's a third, but that's not happening either). I am reduced to on-line snark to blow of steam and try to keep my sanity. All things considered, I'm not wrapped half as tight as Jan. Perhaps.... Nah, never happen. :-)
This Washington Post-ABC News poll was conducted by telephone May 11, 2006 among 502 randomly selected adults nationwide.
ReplyDeleteThis is preposterous. The majority of these people probably hadn't even heard yet about the information revealed in the USA Today article, which had just come out and had not yet started being debated.
This is the relevant poll. When the numbers got up to about 150,000 responses (before the poll was taken down) the percentages remained the same.
How do you feel about the government's database of domestic phone calls?
It bothers me 76%
I'm OK with it 24%
Total Votes: 60,755
Those who voted in this poll online were aware of the USA article.
That's probably why the Washington Post, Water Carriers extraordinaire, did their own poll as an attempt to counter.
Hey notherbob2 - you did read the original post, didn't you? You didn't just skim it? You do realise that the person in question "brought in Aunt Millie" to quote Bush's EXACT WORDS when defending illegal wiretapping? Remember, he was appealing to "moderate" REPUBLICANS to believe (or exonerate) him, simply by saying that the program was "not interested in" "Aunt Millie" herself?
ReplyDeleteVerizon - We never stop spying for you
x-y-no said...
ReplyDeleteOh, look ...
SusanG over at DailyKos mkaes the same point I did:
8. Given the fact that it's being touted as the largest database in the world, it's highly unlikely we're simply talking about logs of phone calls made. It's probably not targeting just who you called and who called you. Emails, instant messaging and text messaging are also possible data being tracked, according to AP.
Guess she's a cocktail weenie eating limousine liberal who ought to go back to watching Chris Matthews and reading Richard Cohen too.
Frankly, I'm happier being in her company than that of "anonymous" shithead.
I respect Markos a great deal but The Kossacks can be so serious.
Guess she's a cocktail weenie eating limousine liberal who ought to go back to watching Chris Matthews and reading Richard Cohen too.
ReplyDeleteFrankly, I'm happier being in her company than that of "anonymous" shithead.
Cocktail weenie eating limo liberals at DKos? I doubt it. They are more likely found reading TNR and haunting TPM. I eat hot dogs cold and drive a beat up VW that I live in.
AT&T INC. (NYSE:T) Delayed quote data
ReplyDeleteAfter Hours (RT-ECN): 25.62 0.00 (0.00%)
Last Trade: 25.62
Trade Time: May 12
Change: -0.49 (1.88%)
Prev Close: 26.11
Open: 26.11
Bid: N/A
Ask: N/A
1y Target Est: 29.00
Day's Range: 25.62 - 26.14
52wk Range: 21.79 - 28.82
Volume: 12,993,700
Avg Vol (3m): 16,692,600
Market Cap: 99.40B
P/E (ttm): 16.87
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Div & Yield: 1.33 (5.10%)
Change Down (-1.88%)
Maybe the couple hundred people who told WAPO they don't mind putting up the white flag and surrendering to a dictatorship should stay long.
But the 75% Americans who disagree can take this opportunity to invest differently and start doing business with companies like this:
BB&T
As for MA BELL?
Seems people forgot to set those parental controls high enough. Certain kinds of "parents" should be kept out of a "man's castle."
Mousing around on rightie blogs I saw this S Ct case being cited - Smith v Maryland 1979 - saying pen registers didn't require a warrant. Did that get overruled later, or underlying law changed, or ... what?
ReplyDeletea blast from the past
ReplyDeletehttp://forums.therandirhodesshow.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=12745
A few cites from cnet and freerepublic:
ReplyDeleteI saw this S Ct case being cited - Smith v Maryland 1979 - saying pen registers didn't require a warrant.
That changed with the Electronic Communications Privacy Act in 1984, which was in response to Smith vs. Maryland.
Section 702 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 requires telecom companies to protect the privacy of their customer records. "Except as required by law...."
Telecommunications Act of 1996, section 222 requires telephone companies to not disclose Customer Proprietary Network Information (CPNI) except in very limited circumstances.
The New York Times reported in February that NSA officials had recently met with Silicon Valley companies while shopping for better data mining techniques.
Virage, in San Mateo, Calif., boasts that its products that can transcribe the text of audio conversations are perfect for "intelligence agencies" and lists federal agencies (including the NSA's parent agency) as customers.
in February, Yahoo General Counsel Michael Callahan declined five times to say whether the company opens its records to the NSA without a court order.
A bill introduced by Sen. Specter would explicitly require the government to receive approval of present and future electronic surveillance programs from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
The NSA has also bugged undersea fiber optic cables that link the communications in the U.S. with countries overseas. And with the permission of the phone companies, the agency has also attached monitoring equipment inside these telephone facilities so that information can be sent to NSA's supercomputers in Fort Meade, Md., to be analyzed, the article said.
Much of the Internet traffic that's transmitted in the United States traverses just a handful of switching centers owned by big communications companies, such as Verizon. The busiest are MAE East (Metropolitan Area Exchange), in Vienna, Va., and MAE West, in San Jose, Calif. The NSA has access to those switching centers.
In addition, the Federal Communications Commission has ordered broadband providers to build in back doors for electronic eavesdropping. A federal appeals court in Washington, D.C., heard arguments last week in a lawsuit challenging those rules.
bIlluminati