Wednesday, May 10, 2006

Embrace the anger - It's not 1972 anymore

There isn't much meat left on the bone known as the Richard Cohen column from the other day, what with all the ravenous savages having feasted on it for a couple of days, including those with a particularly voracious appetite who even greedily went back for second helpings. But there is an "idea" floating around in Cohen's column that is all-too-common, including among many Democrats, and is therefore worth examining:

The anger festering on the Democratic left will be taken out on the Democratic middle. (Watch out, Hillary!) I have seen this anger before -- back in the Vietnam War era. That's when the antiwar wing of the Democratic Party helped elect Richard Nixon. In this way, they managed to prolong the very war they so hated.

The "Angry Left" cartoon has forever been a favorite tactic of those models of Civility and Rhetorical Restraint on the Right -- and as demonstrated by the head-patting praise which the "good boy" Cohen received from Bush supporters, it still is. And many Democrats have internalized it, too. Anger is a bad, bad thing and must be avoided at all costs. McGovern's 1972 defeat proves that.

This argument is false -- dangerously so -- for so many reasons. Most successful political movements need passion. Anger, when constructively directed, is a potent and inspiring passion. It is noble to be angry about dangerous situations and corrupt leaders, and there are few passions which can compete with anger for inspiring oneself and others to meaningful action.

Conversely, those who are entirely devoid of anger are often lifeless, limp, uninspiring figures who seem to be drained of soul and purpose. An anger-less political movement is embodied by a plodding, bespecled, muttering Jay Rockefeller. Or John Kerry's non-response to the Swift Boat attacks. Or the Democrats' often ponderous, half-hearted, overly-rational mutterings on all too many issues or in response to all too many corruption and lawbreaking scandals. Or craven, eager-to-please "liberals" who are more interested in convincing Fox News and other Bush followers how balanced and reasonable they are than they are than in fighting for any actual political ideals -- like Joe Klein, or Richard Cohen, for example.

Democrats need to get away -- as far away and as quickly as possible -- from that bland, mushy, sonorous, overly calculating and painfully restrained, passion-free dead zone. And in that regard, a much bigger problem for Democrats has been a lack of anger -- and most other human passions -- not an excess of it.

Beyond those generic observations about anger, this is simply not 1972 anymore. Richard Nixon didn't win the 1972 election because Democrats were angry. He won because he was a highly popular president whose policies Americans agreed with and liked. His approval ratings hovered steadily at 60% from the time he was elected until well into the Watergate scandal. Nixon was elected because he was popular (see UPDATE below).

The contrast with our current situation could not be more stark. Bush is as unpopular now as Nixon was popular then. Not just "the Left," but a majority of Americans, is disillusioned and angry with Bush. After all -- although Beltway pundits find this notion to be oh-so-distasteful and overblown -- a majority of Americans believe that Bush "intentionally misled" the nation into invading Iraq. Don't you think they're angry about that? How many people do you know who aren't angry when they think that someone has "intentionally misled" them into anything -- let alone that a President did so in order to induce their support for a disastrous war on false pretenses?

Every time there is another story about American soldiers dying in Iraq or Iraqi Government death squads or brewing civil war, Americans are reminded that we are stuck over there with no end in sight -- and that we went there because we were told we had to for non-existent WMD's and (implicitly) because Saddam planned 9/11. And it turns out that none of that was true. Of course people are angry about that, and there is no equivalent blow to a president's credibility -- not in 1972, maybe not ever.

And every poll makes clear that Americans dislike and distrust this president and his party, and want more scrutiny of them, not less. As Democrats.com pointed out yesterday in response to the discussion here about whether Democrats should run away from their intent to investigate the administration, an overwhelming majority of Americans -- 67% -- believe that Congress has given too little scrutiny to the administration's conduct. People know that there are things that are profoundly amiss in our country, that this misconduct has been concealed, and they are obviously deeply disturbed by it. What else would explain a President's crashing to humiliating and soon-to-be-historic-levels of unpopularity -- even in a supposed "time of war"?

The right wing understands the value of political anger all too well. Their biggest stars and most influential pundits traffic in the angriest and most bitter rhetoric imaginable. We know the routine by heart now -- liberals are godless traitors and mentally ill, subversive, fascist losers who should be spoken to only with baseball bats, sedition convictions, and nooses. While the Right insists that liberals are terribly rude for not being more civil -- and also, for their own good, nurtuingly tells liberals that they should not be so angry if they want to win elections -- the Right long ago dispensed with any limitations on the ugliness and anger of the rhetoric they invoke, routinely. Anyone with any doubts about that can just click on a few of this paragraph's links, if you can stomach it.

The crux of the successful Republican political movement in the 1990s was based on few things other than anger. And it still is. The Republican Party was driven by the "angry white male" throughout that decade, who insisted that Hilary had Vince Foster murdered and the Clintons were taking over the world with UN black helicopters. The anti-Clinton movement was symbolized by that ultimate manifestation of political anger -- militias:

[Covert Action Quarterly investigation Daniel] Junus wrote that: "The militias represent misguided right-wing populism with real and imagined grievances stoked by a politics of resentment and scapegoating." Typically, members are angry men with military training who believe that their way of life is being threatened; that they have been backed against a wall.

Republicans didn't send out their whiny Richard Cohens to condemn this anger and tell everyone to just stop it. They did the opposite -- they recognized that anger drives people to political activism and to the polls, and they rode that deep-seated anger to take over the House, solidify their gains over state legislatures, and defeat Clinton's Vice President in 2000 with a Southern candidate who exploited those cultural resentments.

Karl Rove is the master of culling and using political rage. I've been reading some of the interviews from the book Patriotic Acts, by Bill Katovsky, which compiles a series of oral histories on dissent. One of the people interviewed in the book is Max Cleland, and here is what he says about why he lost his 2002 Senate race:

By 1968, Nixon had embarked on the Southern strategy: "Go after the redneck boys on race. It'll bring 'em in every time." You know, it has become more subtle over the years. Certainly, it's what Ralph Reed had used against me in my 2002 re-election campaign.

The Confederate emblem on the state flag was the incendiary bomb in Georgia politics. And it hit the third rail. Which killed us all. It gave the hatchet to the right wing. They raised the issue that Democrats were trying to take away Georgia's culture. The cultural war included the Confederate flag. That was their symbol. . . .

Karl Rove got a lot of money to come down and push nothing but voter registration and turnout for white males. That's what was coming off the charts in anger against Democrats. . . .

They buried us with their strategy. It turned out an extra 140,000 angry white males who normally don't vote. And it turned the mid-term election. Governor Roy Barnes and I lost by apporximately the same margin.

Republicans rode the anger so hard that they even ended up impeaching a President with very high approval ratings -- something which conventional wisdom (but few facts) maintain hurt the Republicans, but Cleland knows otherwise:

I voted not guilty. While Clinton lied and so forth, it certainly was not an impeachable offense. But it brought down the Democratic progress, and it activated the radical right. It gave them something to beat the Democrats over the head within the elections of 2000. Which is one reason Bush won.

Anger has been the great driving force for Republicans. It is the language they speak. And I'd go so far as to say that no political movement could really succeed without the passion of anger. People need a reason to devote their time, money and energy to a political cause. That incentive will usually come in the form of believing that there is something terribly unjust, corrupt and/or dangerous about the current political situation, and in people who are alive and impassioned, that will usually result in some anger. Those who have no passion or beliefs and are more interested in showing how rational and balanced they are will turn up their effete noses at displays of anger, but it is a potent and necessary force to enroll people in political change.

There are some basic facts which Democrats like Cohen and The New Republic mysteriously seem not to be able to ingest. Let's review a few of those. Republicans don't tell Democrats to repudiate their "angry base" because they want to help Democrats figure out how to win elections. Republicans don't actually want Democrats to figure out how to win elections.

Republicans tell Democrats to repudiate their "angry base" so that eager-to-be-liked-and-desperate-to-be-considered-reasonable Democrats like Joe Klein, Marshall Whitman, Joe Lieberman and Richard Cohen will attack other Democrats and depict them as radical, deranged freaks. Because when a bulk of Democrats are so eager to curry head-pats from the Right that they spend more time attacking the symbols of their own party than they do attacking the Right, that is a good thing for Republicans. It breeds divisiveness among Democrats, confuses their message, and destroys the symbols of their own party. "Hey, look - even Richard Cohen and Joe Klein and Joe Lieberman and The New Republic say that those Democrats are deranged and angry and radical and anti-American. And all the while, they say how George Bush and Newt Gingrich are really great guys for whom they have the highest respect."

That is why the Right encourages this idea among Democrats that anger is fatal and to be avoided - even as they perfect the art of using it themselves. They know from lots of experience that a political party that coalesces around its impassioned anger can be very successful. The sooner Democrats figure that out, the better off they will be.

UPDATE: A commenter notes that Cohen was likely talking about the 1968 election, not the 1972 election, "when the antiwar wing of the Democratic Party helped elect Richard Nixon." That's probably true. But the anti-war protestors of 1968 weren't trying to defeat Richard Nixon. They were trying to force the Government to withdraw troops from the Vietnam. And the images which I presume Cohen is invoking -- violent rallies and convention protets -- is a far, far cry from anything happening today (notwithstanding Cohen's self-indulgent and disgustingly overblown reference to "digital lynch mobs").

Were those images of street violence and unbridled rage a cause in Humphrey's defeat? Possibly, and it seems that many who lived through that time were so trauamtized by it that they vowed never to offend anyone from the other party ever again -- a vow to which they have steadfastly adhered for these almost four decades. But from that hardly follows that anger should be forever avoided as a political tool. As Republicans have demonstrated for quite some time, the party which runs away from anger is the party which stands for nothing, inspires nobody, and loses.

220 comments:

  1. Anonymous3:44 PM

    Anyone read the William Rivers Pitt open letter to Richard Cohen?:

    http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/050906R.shtml

    Its execellent. A must read about this subject.

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  2. Anonymous3:52 PM

    Yes. I am angry at the squandered opportunities to make the life of each American citizen safer both here and abroad. The purpose of "national security" is to protect the safety of American citizens. That's supposed to be the raison d'etre for all the illegal NSA spying, the detainee camps, the gulags, the surveillance, the rings of steel and everything.

    Experts: U.S. Hasty in Brushoff of Iran

    Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's abrupt dismissal of a letter from Iran's president might only strengthen hardline attitudes and mistrust of America, some Iranians warned Tuesday.


    As President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad began a high-profile visit to a key Muslim country, Indonesia, a former top Iranian official said Rice's response will give new justification to those who oppose ties with the U.S.


    Iran's former ambassador to France, Sadeq Kharrazi, said the letter — the first from an Iranian head of state to an American president in 27 years — "could have been a turning point in relations." But he said Rice squandered the opportunity with what he called a "hasty reaction."


    "This gives a pretext to those in Iran who oppose re-establishment of ties with America," he said...

    Iranian political analyst Saeed Leilaz said Rice's quick brushoff would fuel anti-American feelings in Iran.

    "It could have been the beginning of a new process," he said. Rice's response "strengthens the suspicion (inside Iran) that the U.S. is thinking of a military option only and not a political solution" to the standoff over Iran's nuclear program, he said.


    US, Iran standoff grows tenser

    Despite rare letter, Washington sees no reason to engage Tehran as the UN considers action.

    The White House did not even bother to translate the letter before they dismissed it as just another attempt to "Lambaste Bush."

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  3. Anonymous4:00 PM

    ...they dismissed it as just another attempt to "Lambaste Bush."

    As I understand it, they did the same thing with the Bill of Rights and the U.S. Constitution.

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  4. Anonymous4:06 PM

    Another cogent post. The top level Dems don't want people angry because then they lose control. Anger can be a great motivator but it is volatile and unpredictable. The Dems governing model is top down leadership like a corporation. The fact that they don't emphasize voting rights and registration as the highest priority for winning elections speaks to this also. I'm sick of the party of stiffs like Kerry and Gore and Hilary sitting waiting for their small opening to move in and nick the Elephant. If the Democrats really want substansitive change they have to focus and critique not just react. Not that this is any kind of a new idea, but beholden to the same corporate interests as the Republicans they walk the tightrope of entitlement and heirarchy. The party leaders' negative reaction to Pelosi's coming out in favor of 'net neutrality' and against monolithic electronic media is just another example of their financial entanglements overriding progressive action, made more obvious in this case because all they would have to do is maintain the status quo.

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  5. Democrats need to get away -- as far away and as quickly as possible -- from that bland, mushy, sonorous, passion-free dead zone

    Yes, dead zone; that is where the so-called centrists are. If you are not angry at the horrors you are either dead, stupid, or evil. Guess which one is Cohen?

    Glenn, thank you once again for laying it out. Every dem politician needs to see this one; and I hope they know, they can mush mouth all they want, the Cohens of the world will not shame us out of our angry passion over what has gone on in this country the past 5 years. To continue trying will only succeed in inviting even more ridicule from the true descendents of Patrick Henry. The msm has been breeched-Onward!

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  6. Anonymous4:15 PM

    I certainly agree with embracing the anger and showing strong opposition to the Repub agenda. Such as the 70 bil tax cut for the rich that the Repubs currently have on the table. The Dems really need to get some backbone before the November elections. But hey, I and others have said that before.

    I was amazed this morning when I read a story that Hillary is embracing Rupert Murdoch and cozying up to Newt Gingrich.

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  7. Anonymous4:16 PM

    "Democrats need to get away -- as far away and as quickly as possible -- from that bland, mushy, sonorous, passion-free dead zone. And in that regard, a much bigger problem for Democrats has been a lack of anger -- and most other human passions -- not an excess of it."

    In my opinion, the biggest reason that the mainstream of the Democratic Party lacks the passion necessary to upset the status quo is that the mainstream of the Democratic Party *benefits* from the status quo. It's a reasonably comfortable niche inhabited by folks like Joe Klein, Marshall Whitman, Joe Lieberman, Richard Cohen, not to mention Hillary and Bill Clinton, Jane Harman, Dianne Feinstein and Richard Blum, and John Kerry. Why would these people even consider distancing themselves from the financial and political constituencies they've courted through their Republican-lite agenda? That agenda has put them in their respective positions of power... it has made them part of the "royal court" (to borrow Glenn's phrase). You can't blame 'em for wanting to hang on to that. Additionally, these courtiers are betting that progressives will continue to support them with our votes and our money, no matter how far they drift from our own progressive values. And, worst of all, we do it! So, again, you can't really blame 'em, nor can you expect much to change, until we, ourselves, initiate that change.

    That's why I'd like to take this opportunity to shill for the political party I happen to belong to: the Green Party. The Green Party accepts no contributions from corporations or unions or PACs. Thus, our candidates are free to represent the folks they're theoretically intended to represent: the voters. This financial independence also frees our candidates to truly stand for progressive values like social justice, non-violence, grassroots democracy, and ecological wisdom. I urge y'all to join me in going Green.

    You can check out the Green Party's website, here:

    www.gp.org

    And for those of you who'd *like* to support a party other than the Democratic Party (as currently oriented), but fear the prospect of third-party candidates "spoiling" a race and inadvertantly helping the Republicans, may I urge you to join me in supporting Instant Runoff Voting (IRV). IRV is a simple and completely constitutional voting method that allows the voter to rank his/her choices, thus eliminating the classic Nader/Gore "spoiler" dilemma we often face at the polls. Australia and Ireland use IRV. London elects their mayor with IRV. San Francisco recently adopted IRV for its civic elections. And there's no constitutional obstacle preventing IRV from being adopted in *your* town, city, county, and state.

    To learn more about how you can join me in supporting IRV to rid ourselves of the "spoiler" dilemma, check out the Center for Voting and Democracy's website, here:

    www.fairvote.org

    Thanks,

    Patrick Meighan
    Venice, CA

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  8. Anonymous4:18 PM

    In 1972, the conservatives were the "Silent Majority." In 2006, the liberals are the "Seething Majority."

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  9. Anonymous4:21 PM

    Another excellent post! Thanks Glenn!

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  10. Anonymous4:23 PM

    Our founding fathers were so angry they started a revolution. Now that's real anger.

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  11. I'm always intrigued by the Angry Democrat meme (immature childlike tantrums, etc) vs the mature label Repub's refer to themselves as outraged. The exquisite moment of Lynn Cheney refer to John Edwards as "not a good man". Her outrage was palpable. Perfect example of the use of outrage to suck all the air out of the room or argument. It doesn't have to be nurtured by facts or ethics but instead feeds off of moral ineptitude.

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  12. Anonymous4:26 PM

    Indeed, much of this is the case. I think, however, the trouble is deeper. Technology, Martin Pawley's 'Private Future' is here, and 'atomizing social devices' have created a context- and community-free polity, in which 'values' freaks are able to seize the high ground by virtue of their Wurlizter.

    HRC let the cat out of the bag with her words on the 'vast rightwing conspiracy' to bring down Clinton's presidency. She also failed, in my view, to go nearly far enough in backing it up outside the particulars of the personal because she is fairly comfortable, and isn't all that intersted in the afflicted Constitution.

    In other words, for the Democratic leadership and the chattering classes, the political is personal, and they are quite comfy at the moment. Oh, could you turn up the air conditioning a tad? And another Mojito would be nice. Thanks!

    Shallow? Greedy? Feet of Clay? Alas, yes, yes, and yes.

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  13. Anonymous4:29 PM

    "Overly rational"? In a country where George W. Bush has won two national elections, should we press for less rationality?

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  14. Anonymous4:33 PM

    The Green Party??!?!?!? ROFLOL, if you're serious about saving America then support Lieberman's opponent in the Democratic primary instead of wasting your time with the Greens.

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  15. Anonymous4:34 PM

    And you know something? You know something?

    Not only are we going to New Hampshire ... we're going to South Carolina and Oklahoma and Arizona and North Dakota and New Mexico, and we're going to California and Texas and New York. And we're going to South Dakota and Oregon and Washington and Michigan. And then we're going to Washington, D.C. To take back the White House. Yeah!

    We will not give up.

    We will not give up in New Hampshire. We will not give up in South Carolina. We will not give up in Arizona or New Mexico, Oklahoma, North Dakota, Delaware, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan.

    We will not quit now or ever.

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  16. Anonymous4:38 PM

    The Green Party? Jesus, talk about people who benefit from a status quo of losing, here you are shilling for perpetual defeat.

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  17. My favorite quote from the William Rivers Pitt piece.

    "It isn't an excess of outrage that plagues this nation today, but an abject lack of it."

    I think that there is a matter of balance to be considered. I, for instance, usually refrain from profanity in my posts (unless of course someone's a REAL F**ktard).

    But when you consider that the issues were dealing with include rendition, torture and secret prisons, failure to be angry pretty much leaves you in a moral vacuum.

    The slogan reads:"If you aren't outraged then you're not paying attention." What we need to accomplish now is to get people to PAY ATTENTION!

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  18. Anonymous4:41 PM

    Another thing that angers ME on this topic is the use (intentional by conservatives, well-intentioned but equally incorrect by liberals) of the term "centrist" or "moderate" to describe the target of progressives' discontent with people like Lieberman, Cuellar, Emanuel, Bob Casey, and Hillary Clinton, and faux-centrist organizations like the DLC and the DCCC.

    Most of us who vigorously oppose those people's ascendancy isn't based on their specific policies so much as on their accommodationism. For example, Hillary almost always votes with the party, and is strong on the environment, health care, etc. -- but she attended Fox News' anniversary party, and will be feted at a fundraiser thrown by Rupert Murdoch in July; she's asking her donors not to contribute to any other potential Presidential candidates, using Soros' money to create but monopolize a voter-info database that should be available to all Democrats through the DNC, and manipulating backroom politics to rig primaries in favor of her preferred candidates (like Bob Casey, Sherrod Brown, and Tami Duckworth, effectively shutting Democratic voters out of the process. She's plenty progressive on the Senate floor, but she's still one of the bad guys. Similarly, Lieberman isn't bad because he sometimes votes more conservatively than I'd like; he's a bad guy because he goes out of his way to provide Bush with bipartisan cover. Obama is a wonderful candidate, but he's strongly backing Lieberman's reelection, and like Hillary is involved in rigging the primaries.

    On the primary-rigging issue, an email I got a while back from Pennacchio's campaign in Pennsylvania, which Hillary and Obama are undercutting, puts it perfectly:

    Mrs. Clinton is a creature of the common wisdom of her Party, which is defined by centrism, triangulation, and, in our view, capitulation. Mr. Casey is the poster boy for all of these tactics, especially when you've moved the notion of the center a hundred yards to the right. Mrs. Clinton gave money for the same reasons any Democrat has given money to Bob Casey: he's the Party's choice to run against Rick Santorum and Rick Santorum must be defeated. We see a flaw in that logic, most notably in the fact that the Party as embodied by its voting citizens has not yet spoken on this matter. To presume their choice, to dictate it, is the sort of hubris we see chipping away at the Republicans right now.

    Given the choice between a strong team player who understands that Bush really IS the enemy but who on policy is a moderate, or a manipulating, scheming, self-loyal rather than party-loyal triangulationist who usually votes liberally but leaves the reservation precisely when unity is needed (as on the Alito nomination) -- damn it, I'll take the moderate-voting good Democrat over the liberal-voting Republican enabler every time.

    So to say we oppose "centrist" or "moderates" is too simplistic. We oppose Vichys and cowards. We'd rather eat sauerbraten and drink Liebfraumilch with true democrats who speak with German accents but fight the Nazis hard, than eat brie and drink Bordeaux with collaborationists who speak perfect French. Not only is it more pleasant, but it's actually a hell of a lot more likely to succeed than "centrism" (really "triangulationism") is, since the DLC strategy has NEVER won 51% of a Presidential vote, lost us the Congress in '94, and has been unable to win it back.

    But few people understand the distinction: when we go after the Vichy, they accuse us of going after the French.

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  19. Anonymous4:46 PM

    My brother, a republican, asks me why I'm so angry about this administration, as in "damn dude, why you yellin?"

    It's an easy question to answer. I'm angry because my 11 month old kid is more likely to get asthma where i live (smoky mountains) because Bush lifted the restrictions on the coal plants surrounding us - that PISSES ME OFF. I'm angry because this administration (and the previous) threw out the CAFE standards so that the majority of these new cars on the road get about 15 miles to the gallon, increasing polution, squandering fuel, and leading to our ever present meddeling in the middle east, where we have 2400 dead and 18000 wounded, and 400 billion dollars invested. Money that could have gone for working on infrastructure in this country, improving schools, research and development, anything but just pissing away our tax money and the lives of thousands of brave young Americans. That PISSES ME OFF.

    I've usually got a good lather going by this point, that redneck boil coming to the surface, and usually he backs the fuck off real quick.
    I don't trust politicians without passion - what the hell good are they.

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  20. It's funny. I was just mulling over writing a post on the same subject. But I couldn't have said it better than you just did.

    The one point I'd add is this: when columnists like Cohen write about the destructiveness of anger in politics, they are confusing two very different situations.

    It is true that angry politicians tend not to be very successful. The good ones, like Reagan and Clinton project an inspiring optimism.

    But that does not mean that pundits, commentators, and the general public are similarly hurt by anger. As you point out, the opposite is true. Anger motivates. When people cast their votes, they often choose to vote for a reassuring optimist, but it is very often their anger that gets them to the polls in the first place, and it is that anger that good politicians are able to harness.

    Justified anger among the public can be a powerful force for change.

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  21. Anonymous4:47 PM

    gay veteran: "The Green Party??!?!?!? ROFLOL, if you're serious about saving America then support Lieberman's opponent in the Democratic primary instead of wasting your time with the Greens."

    It's certainly possible (preferable, actually) to support progressive Democratic primary campaigns with your money and time while--at the same time--registering with a political party that actually stands for the things that you stand for.

    Hence, while I, personally, haven't gotten involved in Ned Lamont's campaign ('cause I live in California, not Connecticut), I have been donating much of my money and time to the primary campaign of a Democrat named Marcy Winograd, who is challenging the Bush-lite Democratic congressperson in my home district: Jane Harman. And I've been doing it while still being a registered Green Party member, and working to help the Green Party grow here in L.A.

    Okey doke?

    Patrick Meighan
    Venice, CA

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  22. Anonymous4:57 PM

    Relax, everybody. Bush's 31% approval rating virtually assures a November bloodbath.

    Just keep Markos "0 for 13" Moulitsas away from your candidate and you'll do fine.

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  23. THERSITES SAID- "Most of us who vigorously oppose those people's ascendancy isn't based on their specific policies so much as on their accommodationism."

    I couldn't agree more. The thing that, to this day, gets me angrier than anything else when I think about it is how Howard Dean was depicted by the media and the DNC as some raving Pacifist Leftist all because he strongly and forcefully opposed the administration, even though he was one of the least ideological political figures to prominently emerge in years, if not longer.

    What made him notable was the strength of principle and the obvious lack of intimidation he felt in standing up and critizing the Commander - at a time when the nation had been bullied into sheepish compliance. But to the media and the DNC, "speaking out forcefully" = Far Left Radical, and so one of the least pacifistic and leftist candidates in the race got depicted as the pacifist hippie socialist.

    If you ask most journalists today about Howard Dean, they will scoff about how liberal and leftist he is. They are completely incapable of independent thought. That was - and is - so dishonest, so transparently so, that it still is amazing that it happened and that it persists.

    Glenn, I agree with the bulk of the your post, but in all fairness to the empty suit that is known as Richard Cohen, he was far more likely to be referring to the 1968 election than to 1972.

    Thanks, Marlowe. You're almost certainly right. I added an Update correction about this.

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  24. Anonymous4:58 PM

    Richard Nixon didn't win the 1972 election because Democrats were angry. He won because he was a highly popular president whose policies Americans agreed with and liked.

    I have seldom more emphatically disagreed with one of your posts. Do you not get WHY Nixon was so highly popular? Well, you were in swaddling clothes then. He ran largely on a law and order campaign, against the left.

    Weathermen. Homocidal Black Panthers. Frequent calls to violence and overthrow of the govt; swarms of angry demonstrators occupying admistration buildings and closing down universites, and not only to protest the war. Any "left" cause would do.

    C. 1969, "underground presses" did such things as seeking out and publishing the not-publicly-disclosed home addresses and telephone numbers of police officers, so that anti-war folks could go "off the pigs" ("off the pigs" was a signature left-wing motto of the day) who were arresting them during their violent demonstrations. My Uncle was one of those "pigs," and he purchased a gun for my Aunt and taught her how to use it when their address was published -- since he did, after all, have to go to work and so couldn't be home all the time to defend his wife and my five cousins.

    That was the most historically illiterate thing you have ever posted. Nixon was swarmed to by middle American because of the terrifying pictures on TV and in newspapers of angry, rioting radicals, blown up buildings, and just mindless violent rhetoric that was the hallmark of the left at the time.

    Get. A. Clue. America will never vote for "Days of Rage."

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  25. I don’t think it’s an accident that many of these people in the “establishment” wing of the Democratic Party who repudiate their “angry base” were also basically supportive of invading Iraq and many of them continue to be afraid to challenge that decision in spite of the polls showing the majority has turned against it.


    These guys are for the most part the remaining Cold Warriors and “New Republic” hawks in the Democratic Party, their lack of passion and denunciation of “their base” seems almost proportionally related to their more right-wing views on foreign policy. There are some exceptions of course, but I don’t think that generalization is totally mistaken.

    As Digby said in his latest post post


    Many of my fellow baby boomer liberals believe that the country recoils from extremes and they are right. But they are stuck in a time warp.

    Also, they are confusing anger and passion with extremism and that is not the case – I think the majority of Americans are angry at this administration, and I don’t think that majority is extreme at all – their anger and passion needs to be embraced and reinforced, not denigrated.

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  26. Anonymous5:08 PM

    I knew Glenn's tirade sounded familiar!:

    The alliance... will die. As will your friends. Good, I can feel your anger . . . . Take your weapon [and] strike . . . with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete.

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  27. Anonymous5:12 PM

    Maybe I'm from another generation, but there was a time when the phrase...

    "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

    ...was viewed as politically inspiring.

    For those of you who don't know what I'm refering to ... (1) shame on you and (2) rent the movie "Network" ASAP.

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  28. EXACTLY!!!! I'm looking for an angry candidate(not hillary) more angry than Feingold. Yeeeeaaaarrrrgggghhh! THAT kind of passion. Dems need to quit playing according to the GOP playbook. My gawwd, how many times are they going to respond just like Rove knows they are? Damn right the left is angry...and so is everybody that can think independently.

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  29. Weathermen. Homocidal Black Panthers.

    Mayor Daley's police bludgeoning the heads of news photographers.

    There was no shortage of overreaction on either side of that divide. And of course until the "Swift-boating" incident, I thought most of us had pretty much gotten past all that. But rather than refight the Vietnam war, we need to take what we've learned from it at translate it into positive action.

    Swift-boating is of course the other reason that anger still needs to play a role in today's politics. Digby has said it best on a number of occasions but it bears repeating. Americans won't trust Democrat's to defend their country until they've shown a willingness to defend themselves!

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  30. Will Pitt took whatever meat was left.

    Nothing but marrowless bones left of Cohen now.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Bill Clinton occupied the same political ground as these 'liberal' blowhards, but he brought passion, conviction and broad and deep policy knowledge to it. It tended to overcome the phoniness he could also project. This is what made him a winner where passionless Kerry et al. could only be losers. People want a little fire, even from centrists.

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  32. Anonymous5:26 PM

    I see an inherent problem. The polls show that 70% of the country disapproves of Bush. People clearly DO want a change. The election should be bloodbath.

    BUT, the more vocal people on the Left, like Markos or Michael Moore, etc., are a huge turn-off to most in this country. The embrace of the vocal-Left may be the kiss of death. Unfortunately, their embrace will likely kill the chances of, say, Russ Feingold in '08, and give a leg up to Hillary, even though Russ is far more impressive.

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  33. Bill Clinton occupied the same political ground as these 'liberal' blowhards, but he brought passion, conviction and broad and deep policy knowledge to it. It tended to overcome the phoniness he could also project. This is what made him a winner where passionless Kerry et al. could only be losers. People want a little fire, even from centrists.

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  34. Sorry for the double post. Blogger freaked (I suspect the 'word verification' server).

    ReplyDelete
  35. Anonymous5:39 PM

    Patrick Meighan said...

    "That's why I'd like to take this opportunity to shill for the political party I happen to belong to: the Green Party. The Green Party accepts no contributions from corporations or unions or PACs. Thus, our candidates are free to represent the folks they're theoretically intended to represent: the voters."

    I'm not against voting for third party candidates, in fact I have done so in the past on more than one occasion. I also think that a solid, electable third party would be good for the country. On the issues that really matter to the survival of the country, the economy and trade, I don't see a nickels worth of difference between the Repubs and the Dems. But for this mid-term election there is nothing more important than reigning in Bush. IMO the only way to do that is to get Democrats elected and in control of one or both houses of Congress. Just don't think there are enough electable third party candidates to get that done.

    Come back and talk to me when the 2008 presidential campaign comes up.

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  36. Anonymous5:39 PM

    The hidden Imam writes:

    "People clearly DO want a change. The election should be bloodbath.
    ...BUT, the more vocal people on the Left, like Markos or Michael Moore, etc., are a huge turn-off to most in this country. The embrace of the vocal-Left may be the kiss of death."


    Dude, you can substitute the word "angry" with "more vocal" if you want, but it's still the same shine-ola.

    By the way, "more vocal"? I don't see or hear much from Michael Moore these days. Not since this movie which was a couple of years ago. Maybe conservatives talk about him all the time, but that doesn't mean he's being more vocal.

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  37. Anonymous5:54 PM

    Glenn, thank you so much for everything you write. I feel like the country is lucky to have someone like you who knows the law and can so articulately explain everything in a manner understandable to the average person. I can't wait to read your book!

    Anyway, you wrote:

    > and defeat Clinton's Vice
    > President in 2000 with a
    > Southern candidate who exploited
    > those cultural resentments

    I think one should be careful about how one speaks about what happened in 2000. Clinton's Vice President in 2000 was not defeated. Instead, we observed the unprecedented selection of the pResident by the Supreme Court. If the votes had be allowed to be counted, we would have had a different result in 2000 and would probably still have a real elected president now (although with the voting machine problems, who knows?).

    I know this is a fine point, but I think it's important to remind people of this fact whenever possible.

    God bless you for your good work.

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  38. Anonymous6:03 PM

    Rasselas said...
    "Overly rational"? In a country where George W. Bush has won two national elections, should we press for less rationality?

    4:29 PM


    He lost the election in 2000. He was selected by the SCOTUS.

    We aren't really sure what happened in 2004.

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  39. HYPATIA SAID _ Get. A. Clue. America will never vote for "Days of Rage."

    Here's one of your handful of bugaboos - the Angry Leftists from 1968 and how they Ruined Everything for Democrats -- and so it's off to the races with the pre-ordained Pieties without regard to what anyone said.

    Try to mull over just this one fact - this one simple little fact -- and then go read what you wrote again to see how overblown it is -

    There are ways to express anger besides going into the street and setting fire to things and breaking the law and spewing "mindless violent rhetoric." In case you haven't noticed, nobody is doing that.

    And the anger which Richard Cohen along with everyone else is referring to when they sayt that anger is going to doom the Left is the anger that gets written down in e-mails and other venues and which expresses policy objections to what this administration has done.

    Your post illustrates the warped and misguided thinking I was talking about - "1968 lawbreaking radicals were angry, therefore anger must be avoided at all costs." It's like saying - "the 1968 radicals were against the war so nobody who is against a war can ever win."

    I listed multiple ways that anger has succeded in our poitical system in the almost 40 years since 1968. I distinguished directed and constructive anger from the DNC convention protests and fist-raised explosions. The Republicans throughtout the 1990s were fueled by rage and they won. You missed all those points because you saw "1968 riots = good" -- which wasn't actually anywhere in my post - and that triggered one of your pre-set outbursts.

    Michael Dukakis, Walter Mondale and John Kerry were the opposite of anger. They were passion-less, limp, emotion-less figures. Bill Clinton, by contrast, was full passion and raw human emotion. He was real. That's what people want - not overly rational, tightly wound accountants wearing wire-rim glasses and viewing Reasonableness and Calm as the Highest Virtues. They want passion and principle.

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  40. Anonymous6:16 PM

    He lost the election in 2000.

    Really? By what electoral vote count?

    ReplyDelete
  41. Mr. Greenwald, my sister is a law student at UChicago and is a liberal, but has informed me that FISA is unconstitutional because it limits the President's Article II powers as Commander-In-Chief. Does the President have unrestrained power to do anything he considers "in defense of the country"? Does this hold water? I feel like it's ridiculous, but I respect the source.

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  42. Regarding the 1968 election, Nixon would never have been elected if Robert Kennedy had not been assassinated in June. Humphrey was was LBJ's vp, and so linked to his war position, and it took him awhile to get out from under that. Nixon said he had a "secret plan" to end the war and bring the troops home. If people had known the secret plan was going to take seven more years they would have never voted for him the first time. Even so, Humphrey was gaining fast at the end, and would have won if the election was held two weeks later. Marlowe is right that 1968 was an important election and Humphrey a great man. But 1968 is also the year Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King were assassinated, and this country and the world have been much the worse for it. It is hard to describe the deep sadness of losing our most important heroes during the sixties. First Jack, then Martin, and finally Bobby. I still have the feeling the world as it could have been has been horribly changed by that violence. I am not sure that the sadness that ensued has tempered our anger to this day.

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  43. Anonymous6:52 PM

    Glenn, my "pre-set outburst" was triggered by this:
    The "Angry Left" cartoon has forever been a favorite tactic of those models of Civility and Rhetorical Restraint on the Right -- and as demonstrated by the head-patting praise which the "good boy" Cohen received from Bush supporters, it still is. And many Democrats have internalized it, too. Anger is a bad, bad thing and must be avoided at all costs. McGovern's 1972 defeat proves that.


    It's no "cartoon." You see, there really was a very angry and violent left in the 60s and 70s, whose rhetoric preceded their murders, violent sit-ins, war on the police that included murders, worship of Black Panthers with their executions, and bombings. Your suggestion that this was some mere "cartoon" will strike any reasonable people alive back then as deranged. Cohen was invoking that actual angry left that really existed. And it has been plaguing the Democrats since then. Anything that brings that past to mind can only harm Democrats, and I don't think Cohen's observation was off the mark.

    By what moral right do you condemn Michelle Malkin for her having knowingly sent hordes of vicious right-wingers to the email and voicemail boxes of students who protest military recruiters? You think it is a greater outrage for Richard Cohen to disagree with you about Steve Colbert than to send 4,000 emails to him that were replete with mindless, rage-filled, foul-mouthed and even threatening "disagreement." In fact, I see no evidence that you see a thing wrong with that kind of email campaign.

    Nobody's political views have been more characterized by passion and anger than my own. But that is quite distinct from mob violence, which the force that kind of email campaign Malkin and the anti-Cohenites unleashed is a category of. Retreating from milquetoast politicking is one thing, and certainly in order from the Democrats. That, however, has nothing to do with flooding political opponents with sick, dehumanizing and vituperative messages.

    Anger can be productive. It is also dangerous, and no responsible leader recommends that it be directed in irresponsible ways. Malkin did what she did, and then apparently there was an in-kind response, and she had to seek some security measures. Isn't escalation fun? Either side, left or right, that is promoting this uncivilized MO in the service of their politics is to be condemned, and I do condemn it. Let's hope it stops before anyone is seriously hurt.

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  44. Anonymous6:54 PM

    "The concept of the `objective opponent,' whose identity changes according to the prevailing circumstances--so that, as soon as one category is liquidated, war may be declared on another..."
    - Hannah Arendt

    ReplyDelete
  45. Anonymous6:58 PM

    elaine said:

    >> he lost the election in 2000

    > Really? By what electoral vote
    > count?

    The Supreme Court sElected GWB in
    2000 so there was never a truly valid electoral vote count. There were many votes that were never counted. Doesn't that make you feel bad as an American???? Imagine if it had been Bush on the losing end in the end? Wouldn't you be mad???

    If all of the Florida votes had been counted, Gore would have won the Presidency. It has been proven.

    You can find articles about this if you are interested. Just search on Gore won 2000.

    Here are a few links:

    http://legitgov.org/index_hot_April5.html

    http://www.americanpolitics.com/2001gore.html

    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/1/8/05317/12357

    There were also the 3000 odd people in Palm Beach County who accidentally voted for Pat Buchannan. Even P.B. said there was no way that 3000 people in Palm Beach County could have voted for him, since it was a Democratic party stronghold.

    Open your eyes.

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  46. Mr. Greenwald, my sister is a law student at UChicago and is a liberal, but has informed me that FISA is unconstitutional because it limits the President's Article II powers as Commander-In-Chief. Does the President have unrestrained power to do anything he considers "in defense of the country"? Does this hold water? I feel like it's ridiculous, but I respect the source.

    Every American should know intuitively that we don't have a country where the President has unlimited, monarchical power to do whatever he wants - including violate laws - in the area of national security. That's just obvious.

    But in case it isn't, you might want to read to your sister this excerpt from Antonin Scalia's opinion in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 124 S.Ct. 2633 (2004) regarding what the power of a President is - and what it is not - in our system of government:


    The proposition that the Executive lacks indefinite wartime detention authority over citizens is consistent with the Founders' general mistrust of military power permanently at the Executive's disposal. In the Founders' view, the "blessings of liberty" were threatened by "those military establishments which must gradually poison its very fountain." The Federalist No. 45, p. 238 (J. Madison).

    No fewer than 10 issues of the Federalist were devoted in whole or part to allaying fears of oppression from the proposed Constitution's authorization of standing armies in peacetime.

    Many safeguards in the Constitution reflect these concerns. Congress's authority "[t]o raise and support Armies" was hedged with the proviso that "no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years." U. S. Const., Art. 1, §8, cl. 12. Except for the actual command of military forces, all authorization for their maintenance and all explicit authorization for their use is placed in the control of Congress under Article I, rather than the President under Article II.

    As Hamilton explained, the President's military authority would be "much inferior" to that of the British King:

    "It would amount to nothing more than the supreme command and direction of the military and naval forces,
    as first general and admiral of the confederacy: while that of the British king extends to the declaring of war, and to the raising and regulating of fleets and armies; all which, by the constitution under consideration, would appertain to the legislature." The Federalist No. 69, p. 357.


    _________________

    So, to recap (according to Scalia) - (1) a principal fear of the Founders was that the Preisdent would have too much power in the area of national security; (2) "the President's military authority would be "much inferior" to that of the British King"; and (3) the President's power as Commander-in-Chief under Article II is "amount(s) to nothing more than the supreme command and direction of the military and naval forces."

    One last thing - FISA was enacted was almost 30 years ago by a vote of 95-1. During that time, nobody of any prominence ever argued it was unconstitutional - including in the Reagan and Bush administrations, which complied fully with it as they fought the Cold War. The claim that FISA was unconstitutional only arose once George Bush got caught violating the law and needed an excuse. Only did people start claiming that it's OK that he violated FISA because it's unconstitutional - including Orrin Hatch, who voted for it, never complained about it, but then claimed it was unconstitutional once Bush got caught violating it.

    Does that tell you anything about the validity of this claim and what is motivating it?

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  47. Anonymous7:01 PM

    hypathia,

    Well of course no one will vote for anarchy. That is not what this post was about. It was about how the memory of that anarchy (some real and some exaggerated) has destroyed the Democratic Party by making its leaders passionless. You can't let the fear of 68 hold you back from confronting the evils of the current Republican regime.

    And let me make on meta point that should put this issue to rest for you. What is the major historical difference between "left wing" thought then and "left wing" thought today.

    Marxism is dead today.
    The USSR is a fading memory.
    Revolution as a political method on the left is completely discredited.

    Left of center thinkers and activists do not look to Marxism for solutions or strategies.
    The American left today is based on the Enlightenment values of involved and active citizenship within the Constitution.

    The whole we must fear anger idea loses its power when you realise that the "bad thinking" in some of the left of the late 60s is gone.

    Interestingly enough it is in the neo-conservatives revolutionary military mission to bring democracy to the tyrannies of the world that bad marxist thinking is most prevelent, but I digress.

    Our anger, the anger of involved principled citizens is powerful and is a necessary fuel to mend our Nation.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Anonymous7:02 PM

    Mr. Greenwald, my sister is a law student at UChicago and is a liberal, but has informed me that FISA is unconstitutional because it limits the President's Article II powers as Commander-In-Chief.:

    What a coincidence. My brother is a conservative and says that you're a liar and Bush belongs in prison.

    I love how your student sister is "informing" you that FISA is unconstitutional - as though she's in any position to do something so pompous and dumb.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anonymous7:03 PM

    Yessiree Bob. I think you folks should get out there and write nasty letters to anyone and everyone, and then riot in the streets. Yeah, that's the ticket, rioting. It worked well in Seattle after all.

    Then maybe riots during DNC meetings, to emphasize what pusses your leaders are, and how they've betrayed the movement. Then there's the amazing hypocrisy of becoming the fatcat party. Millions for politics, and none for the poor!

    Yeah, yeah, it could be the million "mad as hell" march, where you are just not going to take it anymore!
    Burn Bush in effigy, set up booths to shoot Cheney in the face, and dunk Condi statues in vats of Aunt Jemima syrup! Yeah boy, you can show all those squishy liberal courtiers how real Liberals should act! March, March, March!!!

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  50. Anonymous7:04 PM

    Marxism is dead today.

    Oh great - now you've done it. Cue Hypathia and her Leftists-are-Stalinist script.

    PLEASE nobody mention Michael Moore.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous7:06 PM

    Elaine said...

    He lost the election in 2000.
    Really? By what electoral vote count?


    That's a gimme: 5-4

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  52. Anonymous7:09 PM

    angry left that really existed. And it has been plaguing the Democrats since then. Anything that brings that past to mind can only harm Democrats

    And so whenever anyone on the left becomes angry – it brings to mind “that angry left that really existed” and this is why no one on the left can ever become angry again. If they do they are nothing more than smelly hippies – violent smelly irrational hippies.

    Conservatives “own” the trademark and copyright on “anger” just as they “own” 9/11, patriotism, national security, morality, and every other good and positive thing that exists.

    And this is why they’ll be in power permanently.

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  53. The republican sound machine can be deadly effective. Howard Dean's "screaming" incident has become a legend. Why? How did such a small incident become a defining characteristic? At times it seems that he'll never distance himself from that moment in time. Of course, it has absolutely no bearing on his possibilities as a successful democratic candidate or his ability to be an effective leader in the party.

    But, the media has effectively damaged him by its repetition. That's what these limp ideologues in the democratic party that we rail against think about before they ever open their mouths. It may be triangulation and it may be an over dependence on 'consultants' but it is the prime thought process that drives answers to questions posed.

    Picture Dukakis and his reaction to someone raping his wife hypothetical.

    We know that the proper reaction was righteous anger and indignation followed by a concrete and passionate response.

    His response spoke volumes. It made him less than a human at that point.

    The gift of the blogs is the it can serve as an institutional memory and can hold those accountable for their misstatements, among other powerful uses; but it's limitations are that it can't create or dissipate the above type of moments. Blogs and e-mailers expressing their outrage will never overcome video on a loop of Monica and Bill hugging.

    Candidates rely on these consultants so as to avoid saying ANYTHING that can then be used against them like this. Breaking the back of this type of fear from political leaders is a daunting challenge.

    We are asking for courage in the face of this onslaught of talking points and statements that are stuck in a feed back loop. Feingold has shown that it's possible to overcome this fear.

    I'd posit that kicking the consultants to the curb would be a giant first step. But, I'd also caution that reasonable anger expressed against policies is anathema to our current crop of democratic leaders. Leadership against the onslaught will be key this November.

    But, overcoming the fear that anything said would be turned into visceral public memory courtesy of a lapdog media may be more than just distancing ourselves away from consultants. Just once when an idiotic question is asked by the likes of pumpkin head or tweety of a democratic leader I'd like to see it thrown back at them with the contempt and anger that it deserves. The last thing in the world Pelosi should have done is hem and haw about investigations into this administration. There were a hundred reasonable responses that would have generated huge support across the political spectrum. Such as, "no bid contracts without congressional oversight has wasted and lost billions of the tax payer's dollars, don't you think it's reasonable to investigate and see where that money went." Anger expressed in a reasonable and articulate matter to the fact that the taxpayers are getting bilked would not be too much to ask.

    Fear is the worst motivator and that is what motivates the leadership. Maybe attacking the infrastructure of this compliant media should be job one of a democratic congress. Breaking up the telcos would be my first suggestion and repealing the telecommunications act of 96.

    Any thoughts?

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  54. Anonymous7:19 PM

    phd9:
    Weathermen. Homocidal Black Panthers.

    Mayor Daley's police bludgeoning the heads of news photographers.

    There was no shortage of overreaction on either side of that divide. And of course until the "Swift-boating" incident, I thought most of us had pretty much gotten past all that. But rather than refight the Vietnam war, we need to take what we've learned from it at translate it into positive action.


    uh - oh, not another Swift Boat day.::grin::

    I absolutely agree with you in regards to the insanity on "both sides" of the cultural divide in the sixties. I wasn't born till '69, so can't claim to have lived through it, but have been, and remain, interested in that era of history.

    I would not want to dismiss Hypatia's testimony in regarding her personal experience about the fear and anxiety of the time felt by her family, but would submit that this was not everyone's experience.

    What I think is completely missed in the saying "when the antiwar wing of the Democratic Party helped elect Richard Nixon"is that Nixon ran in '68 against an incumbent Vice President who had failed, even once, to denounce or separate himself from LBJ's escalation of the war in Vietnam. Much of Nixon's platform was based on the lie that he was the man to being peace to Vietnam. Remember "Peace with Honor?" (He also lied visciously about his war plans in the 72 election.)

    Did the radical left cost McGovern some votes in 72? I am sure they did. Did they cost him the election? I don't think I would argue that.

    Watergate, remember, was a break in at Democratic party headquarters during the election. Nixon won by a landslide because he was popular, and also because he was a crook, and a master politician. (to quote Clemens: "but i repeat myself")

    He categorized the fundamentally decent, family oriented, South dakota WWII farmer as a peacenik, hippie, abortionist pussy.

    Was he aided in this by the fear and paranoia of the right about the radical changes being demanded by Woodstock Nation (Abbie Hoffman's somewhat grandiose term)? Certainly. But this was dirty politics at its "best" or "worst", depending on if you are basing your value judgement on pragmatism or morality.

    Lee Atwater begat Karl Rove.

    The 60's radical movements were expressing the deep frustration of the progressive element of the American society with the lack of change in American attitudes with regards to issues of social justice. The Panthers and the Weathermen were mediagenic, but there were many people in the "quiet desparation" class of simple humanity who felt and articulated ideas and issues of great sympathy to those causes identified as radical, leftist, or revolutionary. See Death At an Early Age by Jonathan Kozol.

    Someone a few days back brought up the fact that the Civil Rights marchers were often pegged, labeled, and dismissed as Communists, which is a pretty good point in the middle of the Cold War as well.

    The Democrats lost their way in the prosecution and continuation of the war, and left the left with nowhere to go but out.

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  55. Anonymous7:21 PM

    anonymous said:

    > And this is why they’ll be in
    > power permanently.

    No, they will be in power permanently only if we fail to ensure that every vote is counted and counted correctly. With the current situation of hackable voting machines, we are certain to have, indefintely, unelected government officials. Something must be done to ensure that every vote is counted and counted correctly. If this means paper votes counted manually, and no election results for several days following any given election, then that is, at least in my opinion, much preferable to results that can be shifted in the blink of an eye without any paper trail and that do no reflect the will of the people. This really needs to be solved if democracy as we idealize it and believe it to be in our country is to survive.

    I think that most Americans are in denial - most people believe that no one would ever dare to steal votes or to cheat in elections, but it has happened and will continue to happen unless something is done to prevent it. In my opinion, votes not getting counted at all and not getting counted correctly in the United States of America, makes the United States of America no better than any other banana republic. We have descended to that level and whether you declare yourself to be a Republican or a Democrat, you should care about this!!!!

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  56. Anonymous7:25 PM

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  57. Anonymous7:32 PM

    Is there anyone with more blind rage, spewing out in ellipticized profanity and utter disregard for the laws of civility than the pundits of the Right like Limbaugh, Beck, Coulter, et al.?

    And it is this rage that draws many to them. Perhaps many don't even but their arguments--as ridiculous and absurd as they are--but they do find the rage expressing some indefinable anger in their own lives.

    Of course, the question is where this pent up rage of the audience come from?

    ReplyDelete
  58. Anonymous7:35 PM

    Anon writes: And so whenever anyone on the left becomes angry – it brings to mind “that angry left that really existed” and this is why no one on the left can ever become angry again.

    Of course not. But it is absurd to argue -- in light of rather recent hisotry -- that the image of an angry left that is dangerous and frightening is a "cartoon," and especially so when the person making that point has been the target of an email campaign that the organizers fully well knew -- just as Michelle Malkin did -- was going to result in a pile of vile and even threatening communications. Nobody wants to be or should be on the receiving end of such things, and it is well past time for EVERYBODY to agree to fucking stop it.

    You've got your angry right, too, you know. And it caused a FL judge to live under armed guard due to the emails and telephone calls he was receiving. Enough!

    I was disgusted when Jeff Goldstein declared that there existed some sort of state of American of civil war in which the right supposedly was going to have to segregate itself from the left, maybe we'd have to live in different parts of the nation. But if "anger" is going to be channeled by wholly abandoning civility from political discussion and discourse, and instead we are going to merrily rush into the age of harassing those with whom we disagree via vicious and even threatening emails and voicemails, well, count me out. Left and right can have that civil war without me.

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  59. Anonymous7:35 PM

    BTW, I feel that the '68 election was one of the great tragedies of post-WWII American history. Had Humphrey, IMO one of the great political heroes of the 20th century, won, the story of America would have been very different, right down to today.

    If Humphrey had truly been a "hero," he would have stood up to Daley and his cop-thugs in Chicago when they were beating the shit out of any and all demonstrators, peaceful or not peaceful, in a disgraceful police riot. But he needed Daley's support in the general election, so he just kissed the TV screen when the convention vote put him over the top, and grinned like an idiot, even though the smell of teargas and the sound of billy clubs against brain matter were hard to miss even in the safety of his hotel room.

    If Humphrey had truly been a "hero", he would have disassociated himself from LBJ's war much earlier, when it would have counted, but he didn't want to cross Lyndon (who famously gloated to one of his aides "I've got Hubert's pecker in my pocket") because he needed him if he wanted to be nominated, and what's a little grovelling to LBJ like a panting puppy if it means getting a nomination?

    My attitude toward Hubert runs more towards the Hunter S. Thompson view of him: "“a shallow, contemptible and hopelessly dishonest old hack.” A trifle harsh, I suppose, but much more accurate than to call him "one of the great political heroes of the 20th Century."

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  60. One thing I think of when I think of anger, and my "model" for anger is this:

    13 Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!” 17 Then His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up.”

    I embrace that anger. Naturally, he was asked by who's authority he dared to do such a thing...also we know what happened to him later, after his enemies discussed just how "dangerous" he was...still, his anger was just, righteous, powerful and he was in total control. He even stopped to make a whip.

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  61. Gandhi had this to say about anger and I embrace this, as well:

    "I have learned through bitter experience the one supreme lesson to conserve my anger, and as heat conserved is transmuted into energy, even so our anger controlled can be transmuted into a power which can move the world."

    — from Gandhi the Man, by Eknath Easwaran, Nilgiri Press.

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  62. Anonymous7:58 PM

    Anger can consume or it can transform, it can cause bitterness and can for sure be very destructive, or it can motivate one to action to make things better.

    Many people are very uncomfortable with it to the point of not even being aware of it within themselves and feeling offended when others around them become angry.

    Glenn's statements about the Democrats being too nice all of the time really resonated with me. I agree with him that there needs to be more passion in the Democratic Party. I also liked what he said about supporting people way left of us, or at least not attacking them.

    The word "anger" is a hot word and people will respond to it according to their own backgrounds and experiences with it, so I can understand that hypatia is freaked out by suggestions that Democrats should not feel guilty about expressing more anger - that more anger would be beneficial. I, on the other hand, am comfortable with my own anger (although I honestly do try to avoid angry people whenever possible). My take on what Glenn was saying, though, was that the Republicans are trying to make anger seem like a bad thing and to make Democrats feel like they must be civilized at all times and that anger is uncivilized, when in fact the Republicans are angry most of the time and don't give a hoot about who is offended and use it whenever possible to achieve their own political ends.

    I think a lot of stuff is going on that Democrats should be really rightfully angry about and I am constantly disappointed that they are not, so it was great to read Glenn's views on this topic.

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  63. Anonymous8:11 PM

    Marain writes: so I can understand that hypatia is freaked out by suggestions that Democrats should not feel guilty about expressing more anger -

    Please, please understand I am decidedly not opposed to expressing politically driven anger. I do that ALL THE TIME. But I do not organize email campaigns so that people who disagree with me are inundated with 4,000 messages that include a good many missives along the lines of "fucking die you fascist pig." And I also don't claim that those on the receiving end of such disgusting campaigns are referencing a "cartoon" about the "Angry Left" in light of recent history. (And there is so much more where that came from. We can do Huey Newton and the Black Panthers next, and all the left-wingers, including celebrities who hosted parties for them, who admired the cop-killing, dissident-executing Panthers.)

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous8:26 PM

    hypatia wrote:

    > Please, please understand I am
    > decidedly not opposed to
    > expressing politically driven
    > anger. I do that ALL THE TIME.
    > But I do not organize email
    > campaigns so that people who
    > disagree with me are inundated
    > with 4,000 messages that include
    > a good many missives along ....

    I'm sorry, but I totally don't understand where you're coming from and don't get any of your references and didn't come to ANY of your conclusions as to how the anger Glenn was talking about should manifest itself (certainly not in SPAMMING of hated persons with opposing political views (I despise spam)). I didn't get the impression that Glenn was trying to say that the Democrats should model themselves after Rush Limbaugh. There are things happening that Democrats should truly be angry about and that they shouldn't feel guilty about being angry about - that's what I got from what Glenn wrote.

    It seems to me that other people here respond to you in a certain way (maybe you are a troll?), but in case you are honestly speaking to me, I would only suggest that you step back and reread what Glenn wrote and try to detach yourself from any emotional baggaage that for you accompanies the word "anger".

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  65. Anonymous8:49 PM

    Marain writes: It seems to me that other people here respond to you in a certain way (maybe you are a troll?),

    Yes, I'm a well-known troll here, and it is indeed not uncommon that people respond to me at this site in a certain way. That would be becasue assaulting left-wing pieties cannot pass without vituperative attack here. Anyone who punctures those balloons is, by definition, a troll; sub-human, someone you should first slap and then strangle if I were in your presence, a moron and a cretin, ugly, and the ever-popular fascist. That is what increasingly passes for intelligent discussion here.

    But you write this: but I totally don't understand where you're coming from and don't get any of your references and didn't come to ANY of your conclusions as to how the anger Glenn was talking about should manifest itself (certainly not in SPAMMING of hated persons with opposing political views (I despise spam)).

    And Glenn wrote this about the 4,000 emails Richard Cohen was directed to receive by left-wing bloggers:

    And the images which I presume Cohen is invoking -- violent rallies and convention protets -- is a far, far cry from anything happening today (notwithstanding Cohen's self-indulgent and disgustingly overblown reference to "digital lynch mobs").

    Cohen was, in fact, subjected to a digital lynch mob, just as arch-right-winger Michelle Malkin subjected left-wing student protestors to it. Glenn has sent legions of angry emails flooding Glenn Reynolds' email box with vile and foul hate messages. This seems to be the emerging weapon of choice for the online Angry Left and Right. Cohen's protest is neither disgusting nor overblown. He is expressing the sentiments of civilized people of any ideology.

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  66. Anonymous9:07 PM

    Arthur Jensen: It is the international system of currency which determines the vitality of life on this planet. THAT is the natural order of things today. THAT is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today. And YOU have meddled with the primal forces of nature. And YOU WILL ATONE. Am I getting through to you, Mr. Beale? You get up on your little 21-inch screen and howl about America, and democracy. There is no America; there is no democracy. There is only IBM, and ITT, and AT&T, and DuPont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon. Those are the nations of the world today.

    You have meddled with the primal forces of nature, Mr. Beale, and I won't have it. Is that clear? You think you've merely stopped a business deal? That is not the case. The Arabs have taken billions of dollars out of this country, and now they must put it back. It is ebb and flow, tidal gravity. It is ecological balance. You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations; there are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems; one vast, interwoven, interacting, multivaried, multinational dominion of dollars.

    The world is a business, Mr. Beale; it has been since man crawled out of the slime. Our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that perfect world in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality - one vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock - all necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused. And I have chosen you, Mr. Beale, to preach this evangel.

    Howard Beale: Why me?
    Arthur Jensen: Because you're on television, dummy. Sixty million people watch you every night of the week, Monday through Friday.
    Howard Beale: I have seen the face of God.
    Arthur Jensen: You just might be right, Mr. Beale.

    -----
    Howard Beale: I don't have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It's a depression. Everybody's out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel's work, banks are going bust, shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter. Punks are running wild in the street and there's nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there's no end to it. We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat, and we sit watching our TV's while some local newscaster tells us that today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes, as if that's the way it's supposed to be. We know things are bad - worse than bad. They're crazy. It's like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don't go out anymore. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we are living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, 'Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials and I won't say anything. Just leave us alone.' Well, I'm not gonna leave you alone. I want you to get mad! I don't want you to protest. I don't want you to riot - I don't want you to write to your congressman because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street. All I know is that first you've got to get mad. [shouting] You've got to say, 'I'm a HUMAN BEING, Goddamnit! My life has VALUE!' So I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell, [shouting] 'I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!' I want you to get up right now, sit up, go to your windows, open them and stick your head out and yell - 'I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Things have got to change. But first, you've gotta get mad!... You've got to say, 'I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Then we'll figure out what to do about the depression and the inflation and the oil crisis. But first get up out of your chairs, open the window, stick your head out, and yell, and say it: [screaming at the top of his lungs] "I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!"

    ReplyDelete
  67. Anonymous9:26 PM

    shargash said...

    More significantly, there is no evidence that Johnson would have ended the war any sooner if he had won a second term.

    Actually, there is evidence (here, for example) that Johnson would have ended the war in September or October of 1968, but that Nixon interfered--an illegal act of staggering proportions--as bad as treason, in effect, given the enormous casualties it resulted in.

    If a Democrat had done this, you would have heard about it every time a Republican got a parking ticket. But since the transgressor was a Republican, it remains virtually unknown.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Anonymous9:44 PM

    All you need to know about Hypatia is that she still thinks David Horowitz is a credible source for opinions and analysis on liberals, liberalism and the left. When you realize that she thinks democratic socialism is evil and leads to "hundreds of millions of corpses" in Sweden, and that millions of corpses left in the wake of the effort to wipe out socialistic tendencies in governments like Vietnam, no matter how democratic and popular, are no big deal, than you have her pegged. It's also helpful to note that she thinks FDR was an unwitting tool of the Soviet Union and his administration was riddled with KGB moles attempting to deliver us into the abovementioned evil. Hypatia is Mrs. Dr. Strangelove.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Anonymous9:50 PM

    Actually, it's quite possible she may be Mrs. Gen. 'Buck' Turgidson and Mrs. Brig. Gen. Jack D. Ripper. In which case she is a female polygamist. Probably the first.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anonymous9:58 PM

    But I do not organize email campaigns so that people who disagree with me are inundated with 4,000 messages that include a good many missives along the lines of "fucking die you fascist pig."

    Nobody "organized" an email campaign against Cohen, just as nobody organized the email campaign against the Washington Post's blogger-plagiarist. Where do you get this idea? It's clear that the outburst of outraged emails was spontaneous. There was no need to "organize" anything. 4,000 people had obviously had enough of Cohen's wankerdom.

    As to the idea that a majority of the emails said something like "fucking die you fascist pig" -- what proof of this do you have? Cohen admits he read very few of the emails, and he didn't quote from a single one. We know from the Post's lies about the emails to Jim Brady during the Domenech fiasco that the vast majority of those emails were neither obscene nor freeperish. Why would you believe a liar like Cohen, especially since he won't show us the emails, and we know from various blogs on which the emailers have reproduced what they wrote to him that a lot of them were civil, sensible, well-written and -- angry? -- you better believe it. But so what? If Cohen can't take strong criticism, he doesn't deserve to be pulling down his $500,000 a year.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Anonymous10:01 PM

    Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (1964)

    General Jack D. Ripper: Your Commie has no regard for human life. Not even his own.

    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Erm, what about the planes, sir? Surely we must issue the recall code immediately.

    General Jack D. Ripper: Group Captain, the planes are not gonna be recalled. My attack orders have been issued, and the orders stand.

    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Well, if you'll excuse me saying so, sir, that would be, to my way of thinking, rather... well, rather an odd way of looking at it. You see, if a Russian attack was in progress, we would certainly not be hearing civilian broadcast.

    General Jack D. Ripper: Are you certain of that, Mandrake?

    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Oh, I'm absolutely positive about it.
    General Jack D. Ripper: And what if it is true?

    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Well, I'm afraid I'm still not with you, sir, because, I mean, if a Russian attack was not in progress, then your use of Plan R - in fact, your order to the entire Wing... Oh. I would say, sir, that there were something dreadfully wrong somewhere.

    General Jack D. Ripper: Now why don't you just take it easy, Group Captain, and please make me a drink of grain alcohol and rainwater, and help yourself to whatever you'd like.
    [Mandrake snaps to attention and salutes]

    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: General Ripper, Sir, as an officer in Her Majesty's Air Force, it is my clear duty, under the present circumstances, to issue the recall code, upon my own authority, and bring back the Wing. If you'll excuse me, sir.
    [He finds the doors locked]

    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: I'm afraid, sir, I must ask you for the key, and the recall code. Have you got them handy, sir?

    General Jack D. Ripper: Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about war?

    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: No, I don't think I do, sir, no.

    General Jack D. Ripper: He said war was too important to be left to the generals. When he said that, 50 years ago, he might have been right. But today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

    General "Buck" Turgidson: Mr. President, about, uh, 35 minutes ago, General Jack Ripper, the commanding general of, uh, Burpelson Air Force Base, issued an order to the 34 B-52's of his Wing, which were airborne at the time as part of a special exercise we were holding called Operation Drop-Kick. Now, it appears that the order called for the planes to, uh, attack their targets inside Russia. The, uh, planes are fully armed with nuclear weapons with an average load of, um, 40 megatons each. Now, the central display of Russia will indicate the position of the planes. The triangles are their primary targets; the squares are their secondary targets. The aircraft will begin penetrating Russian radar cover within, uh, 25 minutes.

    President Merkin Muffley: General Turgidson, I find this very difficult to understand. I was under the impression that I was the only one in authority to order the use of nuclear weapons.

    General "Buck" Turgidson: That's right, sir, you are the only person authorized to do so. And although I, uh, hate to judge before all the facts are in, it's beginning to look like, uh, General Ripper exceeded his authority.

    General "Buck" Turgidson: General Ripper called Strategic Air Command headquarters shortly after he issued the go code. I have a phone transcript of that conversation if you'd like me to to read it.

    President Merkin Muffley: Read it!

    General "Buck" Turgidson: Ahem... The Duty Officer asked General Ripper to confirm the fact that he *had* issued the go code, and he said, uh, "Yes gentlemen, they are on their way in, and nobody can bring them back. For the sake of our country, and our way of life, I suggest you get the rest of SAC in after them. Otherwise, we will be totally destroyed by Red retaliation. Uh, my boys will give you the best kind of start, 1400 megatons worth, and you sure as hell won't stop them now, uhuh. Uh, so let's get going, there's no other choice. God willing, we will prevail, in peace and freedom from fear, and in true health, through the purity and essence of our natural... fluids. God bless you all" and he hung up.

    General "Buck" Turgidson: Uh, we're, still trying to figure out the meaning of that last phrase, sir.

    President Merkin Muffley: There's nothing to figure out, General Turgidson. This man is obviously a psychotic.

    General "Buck" Turgidson: We-he-ell, uh, I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in.

    President Merkin Muffley: General Turgidson! When you instituted the human reliability tests, you *assured* me there was *no* possibility of such a thing *ever* occurring!

    General "Buck" Turgidson: Well, I, uh, don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up, sir.

    [Turgidson advocates a further nuclear attack to prevent a Soviet response to Ripper's attack]
    General "Buck" Turgidson: Mr. President, we are rapidly approaching a moment of truth both for ourselves as human beings and for the life of our nation. Now, truth is not always a pleasant thing. But it is necessary now to make a choice, to choose between two admittedly regrettable, but nevertheless *distinguishable*, postwar environments: one where you got twenty million people killed, and the other where you got a hundred and fifty million people killed.

    President Merkin Muffley: You're talking about mass murder, General, not war!

    General "Buck" Turgidson: Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks.

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  72. Anonymous10:08 PM

    Nobody "organized" an email campaign against Cohen, just as nobody organized the email campaign against the Washington Post's blogger-plagiarist. Where do you get this idea? It's clear that the outburst of outraged emails was spontaneous. There was no need to "organize" anything. 4,000 people had obviously had enough of Cohen's wankerdom.

    She gets the idea from Free Republic, where she used to hang. It's called "Freeping".

    ReplyDelete
  73. Anonymous10:13 PM

    Anonymous said...
    shargash said...

    More significantly, there is no evidence that Johnson would have ended the war any sooner if he had won a second term.

    Actually, there is evidence (here, for example) that Johnson would have ended the war in September or October of 1968, but that Nixon interfered--an illegal act of staggering proportions--as bad as treason, in effect, given the enormous casualties it resulted in.

    If a Democrat had done this, you would have heard about it every time a Republican got a parking ticket. But since the transgressor was a Republican, it remains virtually unknown.

    9:26 PM


    Just like Reagan's operatives interfered with Carter's attempts to free the remaining hostages in Iran.

    ReplyDelete
  74. Anonymous10:16 PM

    W A R N I N G

    LITTLE GREEN SNOTBALL LINK

    the hidden imam said...
    Glenn, in the past, you've determined from your own independent research that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, and all the violence and intolerance we are seeing now are the result of a tiny minority of extremists corrupting an otherwise wonderful faith. You can add this to your file.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anonymous10:18 PM

    Thank God the exception proves the rule. Rev. Fred Phelps is still a registered Democrat and The Hidden Imam is a member of Mensa.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Anonymous10:25 PM

    Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.

    ReplyDelete
  77. As someone who voted for Bobby Kennedy in the 1968 California primaries -- I was listening to the radio, and had just heard Bobby's victory speech when we had yet another disaster in that tumultuous year -- I well remember the difficulty the Democratic Party had with that damn war. First of all, LBJ escalated it, so it was a "Democrat war." It was splitting the party into pieces. Those who had rallied around Bobby were, I think, on the path to victory, and that would have been a different future entirely. After that, there was the Chicago convention and riot, worsened not by the demonstrators, let me remind you, but by Daley's police riot. All the peace candidates were defeated, and Humphrey started out as the "don't cut and run" candidate. He had to take an oath to LBJ. He started running far behind Nixon, who had "a secret plan" to bring us "peace with honor," whatever the hell that meant, if anything. There's considerable evidence that the Nixon campaign sabotaged the peace talks that summer.

    And then, in the dying weeks of the campaign, Humphrey finally started talking about what he wanted, not the party, and not LBJ: to withdraw from Vietnam. His poll numbers went up and up, until he came as close to winning in '68 as Bush did in 2000: 500,000 votes. Of course, with Wallace taking away the Southern states, it looked worse on the electoral map.

    The anger made us lose to Nixon? I don't think so. A Democratic president made a terrible decision, and it split the nation. The majority wanted to get out of Vietnam, but both parties conspired to keep us there. Some people, who you could hardly call Democrats, rioted and sat in. Like me. I'd do it again.

    But much better would be coherent leadership from the Democratic party. Let the Cohens of the world worry about "anger."

    ReplyDelete
  78. Anonymous10:32 PM

    Yes, I'm a well-known troll here, and it is indeed not uncommon that people respond to me at this site in a certain way. That would be becasue assaulting left-wing pieties cannot pass without vituperative attack here.

    "Assaulting" left-wing pieties? Goodness gracious, and I thought you were against violence!

    One can only admire your amazing bravery in turning up day in day out at a leftist site so that you can impress us all with your bravery in assaulting all our pieties. How noble of you. We all see you as our teacher, I can assure you, poking all our little bubbles for us!

    However, I do have a teensy little fact I want to point out: Receiving an obscene email isn't the same as being lynched. The reason for this is quite simple: when you receive an obscene email, you don't actually die.

    You might like to take another look at the title of the post: "It's not 1972 anymore." If it were 1972, and we were surrounded by left-wing terrorists, and mad celebrities coddling Panthers, you would have a point.

    We are not. And there is no sign of anything vaguely comparable.

    Cohen was, in fact, subjected to a digital lynch mob, just as arch-right-winger Michelle Malkin subjected left-wing student protestors to it.

    Cohen is a columnist with thousands of readers. His entire job is to state opinions. When thousands of readers get upset, they send thousands of emails. If that is upsetting for Cohen, he is in the wrong profession. In particular, columnists are well-known to assess popular sentiment by counting the number of letters they get.

    Protestors do not have an audience of thousands because they are private individuals with modest individual voices. Okay?

    To sum up:

    Richard Nixon didn't win the 1972 election because Democrats were angry.

    D-E-M-O-C-R-A-T-S =/= W-E-A-T-H-E-R-M-E-N

    ReplyDelete
  79. Anonymous10:40 PM

    Glenn, in the past, you've determined from your own independent research that Islam is a religion of cabbages and kings, and....

    And also, I'll just change the subject to whatever just popped into my head.

    Hi there! You're in the wrong thread! Bye bye!

    ReplyDelete
  80. Anonymous10:41 PM

    Very interesting thread this, with it's discussion about "anger."

    I wrote earlier that I was "angry at the squandered opportunities" because I was picking up on the mindset of this thread.

    Upon reflection, that is the wrong word.

    Because what I believe, upon reflection, is that "anger" is always counter-productive and ultimately self-defeating.

    "Passion", however, is something without which life is only a pale imitation of what it could be and is a driving, positive life-force which can often even change the world.

    "Anger" as commonly perceived has an element of bellicosity to it based upon grievance collecting and a desire for revenge.

    Sometimes it starts with mere frustration and then it grows....

    Passionate intensity born of a set of principled convictions seeks mostly to identify, expose and then redress whatever wrongs have been committed by effecutating positive change. It is not really a desire to see the perpetrators brought to justice, be held accountable for their crimes and be meted out retribution.

    I think this is what Gandhi was getting at and I think he was extremely wise.

    This is not to say I think Yeats was entirely wrong when he said:

    "The best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity."

    I interpret his actual meaning to be something which might certainly be less poetically phrased but might better capture the core of what he was saying:

    "The best lack all passionate conviction while the worst are inflamed by anger-driven intensity."

    I personally am not angry at Bush. If he and every corrupt, self-serving and morally reprehensenible person in Government who have done such damage were to pack their bags and move to Elba--- I would celebrate like it was the Fourth of July.

    I have mentioned The Hague not to call for anyone's head, but because I have feared that nothing else of sufficient moment is going to happen that will result in the type of broadsweep changes that this country now needs. To the extent that The Hague would be the ultimate spotlight, it would be a positive force for change.

    Now, a request for unbiased facts please, as I don't know how these things went down not having heard them at the time.

    "She is a little late to the party,'' said John Aravosis, a Washington gay-rights activist and political blogger. "For the longest time, Mary wouldn't speak. Now she gets a million-dollar book advance and suddenly she is speaking. It rings a little hollow.''

    Cheney became a flashpoint for both sides in America's culture wars during the 2004 campaign after Bush endorsed the constitutional ban to shore up political support on the religious right.

    Cheney, who served as director of her father's re-election campaign, stayed silent when Aravosis launched a controversial Internet campaign DearMary.com pleading with her to denounce Bush.

    She stayed silent when Kerry, during a debate with Bush, responded to a question on whether homosexuality was a choice by telling the nation Dick Cheney had a daughter "who is a lesbian"...

    But in her book, Cheney reveals she refused to attend Bush's 2004 State of the Union address after reading a draft copy of the speech that spoke of the need to defend the sanctity of marriage.

    When Bush later endorsed a constitutional amendment to expressly forbid gay marriage, Cheney "seriously considered packing up my office and heading home'' to the house she shared in Colorado with her longtime partner, Heather Poe.

    It "gave me a knot in the pit of my stomach to think of my candidate for president endorsing the federal marriage amendment,'' she writes.

    In her interview with Diane Sawyer, Cheney said of Bush: "I think he's a very good man. On these issues, he hasn't caught up.''

    Cheney is less generous to Kerry and Edwards, who she accuses of "sleazy'' politics for mentioning she was gay during debates with Bush and her father.


    Here are my two questions:

    l) Did Kerry without Mary Cheney's permission say on televion that she was a lesbian? (I know she was already out and proud of it---that is not my question.)

    2) Did Edwards do that also?

    If the answer to those two questions is "yes" (because I abolutely cannot see any "legitimate' reason for either to have done so) then my own personal opinion is that all three of these people are completely morally reprehensible and are the farthest thing we need either as elected officials or as spokespersons for any group.

    Why Mary Cheney is a moral disgrace speaks for itself.

    Paraphrasing Shakespeare's enigmatic sonnet which starts "They that have the power to hurt and will do none....",

    I believe that "They that have the power to do good and will do none...." are indeed the "lillies which fester [which] smell far worse than weeds."

    PS. Despite the silly accusations on this blog which assert otherwise, hypatia and I obviously differ quite significantly in many of our views.

    I know what I think about the issues which hypatia has addressed most frequently but to know whether she has a broad set of beliefs with which I would generally agree I would have to know far, far more about her views on a whole range of subjects and on what evidence she came to those conclusions.

    I have become increasingly uncomfortable and actually very upset about the treatment she has received on this blog. I have felt hurt by how she has been treated.

    She has been consistently attacked in a far more bitter and angry way than even bart, who is generally quite forcefully supportive of Bush's polices (other than spending).

    I knew the Malkin "right" uses and endorses those tactics. But if this is any indication of what the "left" is capable of, gee, I hardly knew ye. But I certainly neither like nor respect ye.

    Is a highly articulate, extremely informed person with passionate convictions about the evils of the system of Communism (on that I could not agree with her more) the real enemy of all of you?

    If so, that is most revealing and extremely frightening. I don't think it bodes very well for the future of this country.

    Maybe those types of attacks could cease?

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  81. Anonymous10:48 PM

    Just one point on the anti war left causing the election of Nixon. In 1972 I attended a McGovern rally hosted by Warren Beatty and Candace Bergen. Bergen mentioned supporting Humphrey in '68 because he wasn't Nixon but now realized there was no difference between the 2. This thinking remarkably predicts the Nader line in 2000. After seeing the result of 8 years of Bush can anyone seriously argue there is no difference between the two? This is not to argue that the anti-war left was wrong about Vietnam pr Iraq. Events have proven them right on both counts. The point is that by trying to elect a president who agrees with them on everything they got a president who agrees with them on nothing.

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  82. Anonymous10:50 PM

    I'd like to change the subject, too.

    Just now on Marlboro Country, Joe Scarborough is suggesting that the elections are rigged... On American Idol

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  83. Anonymous10:53 PM

    Eyes Wide Open and Hypatia are trolls. In the words of Bart The Super Lawyer... Case Closed.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Embrace your leftwing anger - PLEASE!

    I fully encourage you to continue to attack your own Donkey pressies - Cohen is hardly the first - like a pack of rabid Donkeys.

    What delights us Elephants isn't the fact that your left wing is rabidly hateful. They have been that way since Reagan.

    Rather, we are delighted that you Donkeys are attacking one another with the same mindless craziness usually reserved for Karl Rove.

    What is also amusing is that the elite Donkey media is so disengaged that they didn't have a clue how rabid the Kos / Move On wing of the party was.

    Enjoy your anger! Revel in it! And make sure you punish any Donkey that has that disagrees with you. They are traitors.

    ;^)

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  85. Anonymous11:14 PM

    As additional analysis in support of your arguments, Glenn, I would like to point you (and your commentators) to one of my favorite blog posts of all time: Souljahs of Fortune, available at http://mattwelch.com/archives/week_2004_11_07.html#002860

    ReplyDelete
  86. Anonymous11:28 PM

    EWO writes: Despite the silly accusations on this blog which assert otherwise, hypatia and I obviously differ quite significantly in many of our views.

    You and I are obviously aware that Rand followers (you, and I'm not sure whether you consider yourself an Objectivist) and libertarians (me, and emphasis on lower case "L") are DIFFERENT. We do not agree on some significant matters, and no one made that more clear than Ayn Rand herself, who was considered being called a libertarian an insult. But what we share is unwillingness to remain on the liberal/left plantation. That is a thought crime, here.

    Therefore, we are legitimately subject to endless ridicule, vicious attacks, gross mischaracterizations of our views, and even wishes to kill. It isn't enough to oppose Bush and his theories of Executive power, or that I hate most of Fox News; to hold those views from other than a left perspective is to be rendered sub-human, and to be treated worse, as you say, than is the pro-Bush troll Bart. Other Objectivists or libertarians are increasingly unlikely to join the discussion here, and at this point I wouldn't encourage them to.

    That anyone could doubt Richard Cohen did receive tons of hate-filled emails after a blogswarm grew up over his criticizing a comedian for dissing Bush at a freakin' dinner, well, that shows just how seriously the left really should be taken. Of course Cohen received those nasty emails; one need only read here to see how "angry" left-wingers are willing to address those with whom they disagree, as if they are not human beings. And this site is by no means the depths of the left-wing sewer, which also has its analogs on the right.

    A pox on all the online rage-aholics, anger-mongers and dehumanizers, I say.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Anonymous11:42 PM

    This is why some people here, not many perhaps, have a problem with you, Hypatia.

    Yes, I'm a well-known troll here, and it is indeed not uncommon that people respond to me at this site in a certain way. That would be becasue assaulting left-wing pieties cannot pass without vituperative attack here. Anyone who punctures those balloons is, by definition, a troll; sub-human, someone you should first slap and then strangle if I were in your presence, a moron and a cretin, ugly, and the ever-popular fascist. That is what increasingly passes for intelligent discussion here.

    As you yourself have stated, much of that "abuse" came from the right before and after you got here. Before you saw "the light" as it were, about Bush. You can't help the fact that you have internalized the crap the right has been spewing about the left for years. It's to be expected. You have been helping to spread that manure for years. It's those morons supposedly on "the left" that this anger is directed at.

    What gets you osctracized, ridiculed and held to account here is your continual intellectual dishonesty, (see above), your incessant red-baiting, (and no one here is even a communist), and repeating distortions of the truth and outright lies as fact. There are probably a few other things in there, but you get the gist.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous11:47 PM

    BR writes: Nixon also promised to bring the nation's civil unrest (focused on campuses and in ghettos) to a swift end.

    These two promises by Richard Nixon, more than anything else, are what got him elected. "Democratic Anger" had almost nothing to do with it.


    Thank you. But it was even more than a matter of mere "civil unrest." Violent riots, murders of police with the pervasive call to "off the pigs," blowing up the Army-Math Research Center at the UW-Madison campus, and the endless reams of "radical" polemics that encouraged all this insanity that Americans saw on TV and in the pages of their newspapers; it frightened Americans, and not unreasonably. That was a very Angry Left, indeed, and hardly a "cartoon."

    I have come to greatly disagree with David Horowitz on many matters, but it is worth noting what sent him out of the left. He had been working with the Black Panthers -- the darlings of the chic and Hollywood left -- and they executed his friend and former bookkeeper, a 45-yr-old mother. They also killed cops, and shot and left paralyzed a left-wing lawyer who wouldn't cooperate in a prison break. The left didn't care. It was considered "impolite" to talk about these things, because the Panthers were in the vanguard of the revolution against AmeriKKKa and were not to be criticized.

    Indeed, Horowitz wouldn't say all that he wanted to about the murders in public until Huey Newton was dead, becasue he feared for his life. So, he may be off the mark now, but he is nowhere near as revolting as the left he left.

    Nixon promised to quash this anarchy, and he won.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Anonymous11:48 PM

    Hypatia.... A pox on all the online rage-aholics, anger-mongers and dehumanizers, I say.

    11:28 PM


    If you and little EWO can't stand the heat, perhaps you ladies should just stay out of the kitchen. What do you girls think of feminism?

    ReplyDelete
  90. Anonymous11:50 PM

    Love your blog but I got to disagree with you on this one.

    A clear mind is always better than an angry mind.

    Passsion is good - but passion does not require anger. Anger makes you stronger but it clouds the mind and makes you rigid and inflexible.

    I have rarely regretted deciding to wait until I was not nagry to make a decision. I have frequently regretted decision made while angry.

    Anger always looks right in the short term - it rarely turns out to be right in the long term.

    Blue Lee said it best - be like water. Flexible, adaptable, and clear.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Anonymous11:50 PM

    Paul Rosenberg said...
    Hypatia's PTSD

    Slowly, but surely, we are gaining glimpses into Hypatia's traumatized youth. I now realize why it is pointless to try to hold a rational discussion of politics with her. She should have gotten professional counselling to deal with her childhood trauma.

    Her worldview reminds me of the post-Civil War Southern White worldview, in which the formerly docile, passive, happy-go-lucky slaves turned into a race of homicidal rapists. The statistics from that time are telling indeed:


    Well... Shock and Awe...

    ReplyDelete
  92. Anonymous11:53 PM

    Anonymous said...
    Love your blog but I got to disagree with you on this one.


    We all agree with your sentiments, but new age, pop psyche aside, anger is not something one can avoid dealing with. Ask any mental health professional. glenn is correct, and you are correct, up to a point, but Glenn is more correct.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Anonymous12:02 AM

    Regarding the chatter about the "digital lynch mob" (sic) to whose rough hands the cosseted Mr. Cohen was supposedly subjected, for what it's worth, here is the letter I sent him last week:

    "Mr. Cohen,

    One cannot argue another into finding funny that which is not experienced as funny in the moment. As has been said, explaining a joke--dissecting it, as it were--kills it.

    However, I, for one, did find Mr. Colbert's performance at the White House Correspondents' Dinner funny...and brave. Was it rude? Perhaps. Should the President of the United States be spared rude commentary to his face on his performance in office? Absolutely not.

    I don't particularly care for Mr. Colbert's television program...oh, it's amusing, but I don't seek it out to watch it, as I do THE SIMPSONS or THE DAILY SHOW, from whence Mr. Colbert's show derives. In other words, it's alright. I like Colbert in small doses...as the roving correspondent on THE DAILY SHOW, or as the high school teacher on the former Comedy Central program STRANGERS WITH CANDY. At half hour length, he palls on me just a smidgen. Perhaps he does his faux-O'Reilly act too well.

    But, that is neither here nor there, except to point out that I don't have a predisposition to champion him as a fan. (Just as you felt compelled to tell us you're a funny guy, to certify your bona fides to judge whether Colbert was or was not funny.)

    The larger point is: the President is not just some show-biz has-been who is owed some respect or deference despite (or because of) his fading career. He is the acting head of our country, the "commander in chief" of our military, as he is too fond of reminding us at every opportunity, the frequency of his claim intended as both a club to end any arguments as to his actions, and to bolster his own personal insecurity. This is a man who has violated international law by invading a country under false pretenses, and who has violated domestic law and the Constitution in his authorizing the warrantless NSA wiretaps, in his detaining (at least) two American citizens incommunicado in military detention for years, without charging them and without bringing evidence against them; he has violated the Geneva Conventions, not to mention simple human decency, in sanctioning the use of torture against detainees, whom he and his ruling cohort dismiss as "terrorists," and "the worst of the worst," without having to prove these claims, (and notwithstanding that even if and where these characterizations are true, this does not justify torture, even if Bush and company define it down to "mere" abuse).

    Frankly, Bush deserves much more in the way of a "rude" awakening than this. Although I have no hope he will ever face the cold fact of an indictment against him for his various crimes against humanity, he certainly deserves to; if the worst rebuke he will face for his actions is a 20 minute lampooning at a Washington banquet of the power elite--who themselves were deservedly lacerated--then he has, like the corporate CEO who "suffers" termination with only his Golden Parachute to comfort him, got away with his offenses scot free.

    Cordially,

    Robert XXXXXXX"

    Given some of the language and sentiments I see expressed here, I don't doubt that a significant number of the emails sent Mr. Cohen's way were abusive; however, lacking any evidence to the contrary, I'd bet more of them than Mr. Cohen has admitted to (or can see) are similar in tone to what I wrote than to the verbal "thrown rocks" he indicates. And, as Glenn and others have rightly pointed out, the events of our times can elicit from attentive citizens no less than anger, passionate anger at the fraud, corruption, abuse and murder unleashed by our rogue administration in the interests of "spreading democracy"(sic) and in our name.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous12:04 AM

    First off, Glenn, I put in my little order for your book. I didn't go to your book page first at Amazon (don't hate me for going there -- I had my reasons) but rather I went to "The Party of Death" page and then ordered King Dork. Those of you who are curious will see why if you visit the page.

    This post of yours, more than any other has compelled me to comment. My first opportunity to vote for President was for JC. I worked for JJ when he ran. I never worked for Clinton. Don't get me wrong, I voted for him, just didn't work for him.

    As someone whose vision of reality will never be that, I have never felt anger. I simply try to do what I can to get what is closest to my beliefs in practice.

    I remember going into a Halmark store in suburban Houston and finding wild crazy angry video tapes, stickers etc. against Clinton. The local talk radio was full of "hate." Odd that one of the most vocal locals has now been convicted of indecent exposure, having flashed his privates to a 12 year old girl. I guess I should leave off questioning family values in this crowd, what with Libby's book and all.

    OT, sorry.

    While reading your post, Glenn, I became nostalgic for the times when passion was not equated with outrage, when action was personal, individual. I use this new medium to keep in touch and learn. But I still remember what I learned during the preparations for a pro-choice rally I work at here in Houston, prostests get attention -- hand written letters do, too.

    I'd add that buying books do as well. I'm not advocating one over the other, but I am saying that a hand written letter means a lot, even in this digital, internet connected age.

    It took me almost an hour to type this with corrections. It doesn't even encompass all the thoughts and feelings that Glenn's post brought out in me. And of course, I didn't refresh. I'll g read the comments now.

    lo siento mucho y gracias glennito :)

    ReplyDelete
  95. Anonymous12:05 AM

    As someone who actively counseled people to "Dump the Hump" in 1968, I can say in retrospect (as have folks like my old friend Tom Hayden) that was not the right move.

    However, "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!" has always been the best organizing strategy for a political party, and Glenn has hit the nail on the head here with his analysis of the righties.

    And that pair of limpdicks, Cohen and Klein, are the kind of little dorks who probably were regularly chased home from school for tattling to the teacher. That's certainly the image I have of that whiny prick Lieberman.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Anonymous12:05 AM

    The reverse was definitely not the case. The white community frequently organized itself into mobs, and either lyunched blacks, often haphazardly, (which happened more often in the South) or drove them out of town (which happened more often in North, especially the Midwest.)

    You forgot Rosewood, Paul. Which is the only case we've uncovered, to date, of whole black communities being wiped out by angry white mobs. I'm sure there were other cases. Talk about piles of hidden corpses. There is another case of a black WWI war hero (MOH I think) who had to barricade himself in his home in Kansas, or Missouri... So many...

    ReplyDelete
  97. Anonymous12:12 AM

    bart: And make sure you punish any Donkey that has that disagrees with you. They are traitors.

    Sex is better after a good argument. Just keep the harsh rhetoric out of the bedroom.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anonymous12:13 AM

    White christian merkin patriots hide the bodies better.

    Visit the links there, Hypatia. It will be like looking in the mirror.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Anonymous12:14 AM

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6556243338032887518&q=bruce+lee+interview

    go to 15:50

    ReplyDelete
  100. Anonymous12:16 AM

    bart said...
    Embrace your leftwing anger - PLEASE!

    blah, blah, blah...


    Bart is Vader! He only looks like yoda!

    ReplyDelete
  101. Anonymous12:19 AM

    I read the post of hypatia to which Glenn responded.

    I think hypatia's post contained some mildly inflammatory language which is some times her style when she writes about issues about which she feels strongly and I found it slightly disrespectful to Glenn but nothing even close to deserving the response that Glenn then lobbed at her.

    Glenn could have written to hypatia privately if he felt strongly about responding to her post.

    Instead he chose to hold her out for a public hanging.

    I guess it's easier to attack someone when everyone else is attacking that person. Well, that's one way to be "popular" I suppose.

    Probably hypatia herself doesn't agree with me on this and accepts Glenn's response as just part of the discussion.

    I don't. I find it highly objectionable on many counts not to do with the content or the "passion" of the issues being discussed.

    This is the first time I have been ashamed of an action of yours, Glenn. Frankly, I never would have predicted you would act in such a fashion.

    Please do not respond to me privately or on this blog about this matter. Maybe hypatia can take that type of response from the host of a blog but I cannot.

    I would have written you privately about this but because you chose to do that to hypatia, I thought you should taste that medicine and see whether you really like its taste that much.

    I don't need to taste that medicine to assess its flavorability because I already know I find it very bitter. You needen't enlighten me further about that.

    I hold myself up as no role model in my responses to others once my passions are aroused.

    But even I, often as legitimately deserving of criticism as anyone in that regard, would have enough self-control and respect for my readers not to do that to someone if I were the host of a blog.

    Glenn knows that I have been one of his most passionate admirers since the very first time I read a post of his.

    If this indicates that Success Is Going To Spoil Rock Hunter, I would suggest some serious re-thinking about whether this is the direction in which you want to go.

    I think an apology to hypatia for the tone of your response to her would be in order.

    I'll be waiting. Will I see that? I don't know. I am curious to find out. I certainly hope so. There are really not that many hero candidates around. It's hard to reconcile oneself to the notion that there may be even one less than one had hoped for.

    I don't ask that anyone be perfect. I ask that this particular blog host, a very special person, set an example and not do that to any
    commenter on this blog.

    Whatever else your response was Glenn, it was also a personal attack.

    PS. I don't think you will find any evidence of Sen. Russ Feingold or Paul Craig Roberts speaking to someone like that.

    They have very passionate convictions but they remain gentlemen at all times.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Anonymous12:21 AM

    The Black Panthers were adored by left-wing elites in the 60s and 70s. Hollywood and NYC celebrities hosted parties for them, and they were considered an integral part of the revolution against the nation, nevermind that they, like, killed people. Even their radical lawyer, Faye Stender. Her crucifixion style shooting on top of the murder of left-wing bookkeeper Betty Van Patter, all to no protest from the left, are what initially drove David Horowitz out of the left. It is this kind of thing that horrified Horowitz, and America, about the "Angry Left":

    One of FAYE STENDER's many claims to fame is that she was [Black Panther] GEORGE JACKSON's lawyer. He was accused of killing CORRECTION OFFICER JOHN MILLS. STENDER made JACKSON a cause celebre. She was responsible for editing JACKSON's book, SOLEDAD BROTHER, a collection of JACKSON'S letters from prison and got GREG ARMSTRONG at BOUBLEDAY to publish it. The book was a huge seller and the royalties from it were originally supposed to go to the Jackson defense committe that she founded. The money would be spent for legal fees and a PR campaign to raise grassroots support for JACKSON and other "political prisoners."

    In fact, the money was siphoned off to the Black Panthers who used it to buy weapons and rural property in the Santa Cruz mountains. The property was used as a training camp where Panthers and other revolutionaries learned weaponcraft, bomb making and unarmed combat. JACKSON's ultimate goal in this was to have this "army" of trained insurgents bust him out of prison and escape to Angola.

    Fay Stender got caught between competing interests. She saw JACKSON's trial as a political cause, a non-violent showcase that would bring to light all the racial and class injustices suffered by blacks in the US prison system. Her client, by his own admission, wanted to cut throats and create political change via firing squad like his heroes Che and Fidel. On the other side was Newton, who for all his political rhetoric, was never anything more than a slick street thug. Newton was eventually killed by an Oakland drug dealer who refused to pay tribute.

    In MAY 1979, STENDER was visited by a former PANTHER and member of the the BLACK GUERILLA FAMILY, the prison gang that JACKSON founded. At gunpoint, he made her sign a confession that she betrayed JACKSON and was the cause of his death. Then he shot her five times and left her for dead. Miraculously, she survived but was left paralyzed. She testified against her attacker and then moved as far away as she could from the BAY AREA -- HONG KONG.

    A year later, disillusioned and still in fear from associates of her former client, she took an overdose of pills and died.


    Yeah, Nixon just "manipulated" this stuff, and exaggerated about the left. No serious person should have been upset about such things, which were trivial, as Paul Rosenberg will be so happy to tell you.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Anonymous12:24 AM

    Anonymous said...
    link

    12:15 AM


    Yes, I studied Tai Chi, a Yang style, very martial, kicks and blows... but



    Bruce Lee never surfed the breaks off Sunset Beach, Waimea Bay and the Banzai Pipeline... That's real water. It may or may not be angry, but it pours you, you don't pour it.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Anonymous12:26 AM

    Hypatia said...
    The Black Panthers were adored by left-wing elites in the 60s and 70s.


    And little Davey Horowitz... He's never been very consistent. he's unbalanced.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous12:35 AM

    Hypatia, you really are scraping the bottom of the gossip barrel for mud. You learned well from your master, young padewan.

    She was responsible for editing JACKSON's book, SOLEDAD BROTHER, a collection of JACKSON'S letters from prison and got GREG ARMSTRONG at BOUBLEDAY to publish it.

    I never read the BOUBLEDAY publication.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Anonymous12:36 AM

    What gets you osctracized, ridiculed and held to account here is your continual intellectual dishonesty, (see above), your incessant red-baiting, (and no one here is even a communist), and repeating distortions of the truth and outright lies as fact. There are probably a few other things in there, but you get the gist.

    No, what causes people to, oh, wish to kill me is that I have a command of the facts when left-wingers want to revel in claims that "McCarthyism," by which they mean all opposition to domestic Communists, was worse than the American Stalinists and their crimes, if most here will even concede such crimes. I tell no lies, and on the few occasions when I have erred in a fact claim, I have admitted it. (I seldom make fact claims unless I am quite sure of myself, so it is seldom necessary for me to retract.But I always do so when I see I am wrong.)

    I state truths that violate left-wing orthodoxy, and there is a price exacted for that here. Like being told I'm essentially sub-human or that I should be slapped and strangled. That's how the conversation here goes lately. Really quite disgusting.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Anonymous12:37 AM

    If there is a god in that mystical place heaven, does it mean the EWO will go away?

    Powers that be let it be so. I would much rather read Mona's arguments, given that she has seen the light of the commenting is futile that is BART than EWO's pathelogical spewings.

    EWO -- don't let the screen door -- oh well you know.

    There is hope for decent discourse -- finally?

    ReplyDelete
  108. Anonymous12:48 AM

    Mona,

    If I have ever responded to you (not sure I have directly) I have never accused you of the list that you repeat. I think, correct me if I am wrong, of baiting and "gotcha" on such minor points as to be absurd of you effort in the past.

    I admire your debates with BART, though I wish you had weighed in on the thread about the administration avoiding any review. You tell me why you didn't. BART twisted the facts and the legal aspects in that thread, but you offered nothing.

    I enjoy reading your comments as well as your posts. As an anarchist, your libertarian leanings are close to my own beliefs. I just think you are a little too paranoid.

    Be that as it may, you pose no threat to me or my political beliefs. Were it so with others who comment on this blog, there could be harmony.

    I'm used to hoping for an impossible future . . .

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anonymous12:52 AM

    In other news, several million people in some country somewhere died for no particular reason.

    However, every single person in Hollywood and every single leftist sang the praises of the Black Panthers. Therefore they are evil, bad to the bone, and must never be angry ever again.

    Instead he chose to hold her out for a public hanging.

    Oh for God's sake, can the reeking self-pity. SHE ISN'T ACTUALLY DEAD.
    UNLIKE AN AWFUL LOT OF VIETNAMESE.

    I guess it's easier to attack someone when everyone else is attacking that person. Well, that's one way to be "popular" I suppose.

    Probably hypatia herself doesn't agree with me on this and accepts Glenn's response as just part of the discussion.

    I don't. I find it highly objectionable on many counts not to do with the content or the "passion" of the issues being discussed.

    This is the first time I have been ashamed of an action of yours, Glenn. Frankly, I never would have predicted you would act in such a fashion.


    WTF???

    What exactly did he say that horrified you so much that you couldn't even quote it??

    Or is asking that question tantamount to murdering you?

    ReplyDelete
  110. Anonymous1:00 AM

    I state truths that violate left-wing orthodoxy

    You state "truths" that don't comport with other folks perceptions of reality, which as we all know, has a "liberal bias".

    People here just want to slap you and shake you and tell you to "Snap out of it!" Just because we care enough to make the effort.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Anonymous1:01 AM

    I state truths that violate left-wing orthodoxy, and there is a price exacted for that here.

    What? $2.99?

    Like being told I'm essentially sub-human or that I should be slapped and strangled.

    No, what you do is blandly and condescendingly insult everyone, then act surprised that there are hostile responses, then claim that you are being persecuted and then announce that you have been murdered and are now dead.

    I just did a simple search. The only person in this thread to use the word "slapped" or "strangled" is (so far) you. Considering what you claim is at stake, accuracy would be nice.

    You could ask Greenwald to start deleting vicious comments. That, however, would deprive you of your victimhood.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Anonymous1:07 AM

    EWO writes to Glenn about me: Whatever else your response was Glenn, it was also a personal attack.

    It would be hard to explain, but I actually didn't take it that way. No doubt many (and many who approved) did. Certain people have a license to, within limits, play hardball with me. As I do with them (and my own game might get harder, tho I'd really rather not. Granted that Glenn almost never does that with his left-wing commenters (or left-wingers at all), and so I understand why you see it as you do, and appreciate your sentiments.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous1:09 AM

    Hypatia,

    I know about Stender and Betty Van Patten. I know that some Panthers were not about to be gunned down without a fight. I also know that the FBI and the local cops in various cities did things that you only approve of because "those people" were leftists. Forget all that for a moment, especially that gossip you just posted about Stender which doesn't sound like more than National Enquirer stuff. It doesn't even conform with the "facts" as Horowitz tells them in Radical Son: A Generational Odyssey. But forget that, read some reality. Just hold your nose and ignore the stench of the "liberal bias".


    An Academic Bill of Rights?
    David Horowitz's Odd Gripe

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous1:18 AM

    I just did a simple search. The only person in this thread to use the word "slapped" or "strangled" is (so far) you. Considering what you claim is at stake, accuracy would be nice.

    You could ask Greenwald to start deleting vicious comments. That, however, would deprive you of your victimhood.

    1:01 AM


    Glenn can't do that. Not with this comments platform. Hypatia has suffered this abuse at right wing sites, and here. But the way she tells it, it is now becoming a way to paint this blog in a negative light. The death threats came from right wing sites, by her own admission. When she says that folks here have threatened to "slap her" or "strangle her" that's a bit of a distortion on her part. Some things were said, but no court would construe them as actual, actionable threats. This is what gets people angry enough with her to want to slap her and to state they are that angry. not quite the same thing as, "I am going to track you down and _______ and then _____ you to _____!

    For that you go to right wing sites. Want to see? and it's questionable if that would be actionable either. everyone knows they are blowhards.

    ReplyDelete
  115. Anonymous1:20 AM

    Jade said: The only person in this thread to use the word "slapped" or "strangled" is (so far) you. Considering what you claim is at stake, accuracy would be nice.

    Sweetheart, try "slap" and "strangle" outside of this thread. And I assure you, I'm not crying victim, I'm disgusted. I've objected to the way others have been treated here as well, becasue I find it revolting.

    If I were of a mind to, I could slice and dice with the best of them, and frankly, the site owner knows that better than most. But I don't really like myself in full-on bitch mode, and these days don't usually go there. No, my objection is to such vitriol being lobbed at anyone; I'm just the canary in the coalmine showing why non-leftists would not find the environment here acceptable.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Anonymous1:20 AM

    You are Mona from L2R, aren't you?

    ReplyDelete
  117. Anonymous1:21 AM

    Granted that Glenn almost never does that [criticise people who call him an illiterate in the comments to his blog] with his left-wing commenters (or left-wingers at all), and so I understand why you see it as you do, and appreciate your sentiments.

    X-D

    Hyp, ... are you even capable of writing a sentence which is NOT ludicrously patronising?

    Dear oh dear, it's not easy being a high-volume troll on a politically-opposed blog is it? Really, you ought to be paid for bestowing your opinions upon us!

    Tell us about how evil we are and how we all love terrorists! Go on! We promise not to drop napalm on you for being so vewy bwave as to challenge our little orthodoxies!

    ReplyDelete
  118. Anonymous1:22 AM

    An edit, if I am allowed, on this *peace* thread --

    I said I think, correct me if I am wrong, of baiting and "gotcha" on such minor points as to be absurd of you effort in the past.

    I meant: I think, correct me if I am wrong, that I have accused you of baiting and "gotcha" on such minor points as to make your effort in the past absurd.

    thx for the space glenn, sincerely.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anonymous1:24 AM

    Sweetheart, try "slap" and "strangle" outside of this thread. And I assure you, I'm not crying victim, I'm disgusted. I've objected to the way others have been treated here as well, becasue I find it revolting.

    By all means, do try it. You will find that she plays the victim rather well.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Anonymous1:24 AM

    You are Mona from L2R, aren't you?

    I am. And ObWi and several other places. Do I know you?

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous1:30 AM

    Anyway, Mona, Hypatia.. whatever your name is, you need to get over yourself. We all like to go slumming once in awhile, (I like to visit the Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler for kicks), but as Jade says don't act surprised when the natives get restless and boil you a bit before skewering.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Anonymous1:35 AM

    If I were of a mind to, I could slice and dice with the best of them, and frankly, the site owner knows that better than most. But I don't really like myself in full-on bitch mode, and these days don't usually go there. No, my objection is to such vitriol being lobbed at anyone; I'm just the canary in the coalmine showing why non-leftists would not find the environment here acceptable.

    This made me laugh. Not with anger or fury, but pure mirth. Mona, give us all a break for once, mi amiga.

    Your comments, when it comes to communists and others you lump into that category, verge on the histeric. I have lived my entire adult life not having "my party" rule in this country. You actually prove the post by Glenn. You vocalized your point to the extreme and blanketly believe every rumor. I stay away from rumor. I trust my own beleifs.

    Again though, I admire your tenacity with BART, but doubt your convictions based upon your absence from that one thread.

    Is that fair? You tell me :)

    ReplyDelete
  123. Anonymous1:35 AM

    "Hypatia" said...
    You are Mona from L2R, aren't you?

    I am. And ObWi and several other places. Do I know you?

    1:24 AM



    No, but I know of you. But please... nobody here is going to hurt more than your feelings on occasion, so drop the act. It doesn't play well here, or anywhere, anymore. Times they are a-changing.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Anonymous1:37 AM

    Jade embarrasses herself:
    Dear oh dear, it's not easy being a high-volume troll on a politically-opposed blog is it? Really, you ought to be paid for bestowing your opinions upon us!

    Tell us about how evil we are and how we all love terrorists! Go on! We promise not to drop napalm on you for being so vewy bwave as to challenge our little orthodoxies!


    How long have you been here? My participation has been virtually from the inception of this blog, and I've authored guest posts, one with Glenn (some top 10 bad Americans nonsense) and several on my own. But he and I do not always agree, and we sometimes even are testy about it.

    But I totally agree with him about the excesses of Bush's theories of Executive power. Which is among the reasons I'm here.

    If you can, attempt to hold these two thought in your head: one can reject George Bush, and not be left-wing. I know it is hard, but do try with all your might.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Anonymous1:43 AM

    Hypatia" said...
    Jade embarrasses herself:


    There she goes again. Old Faithful.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Anonymous1:44 AM

    I'm just the canary in the coalmine showing why non-leftists would not find the environment here acceptable.

    Please just go back to the pet-store. We're all full up on canaries, believe me.

    Poor little non-leftists. Not even Glenn Greenwald's blog comments are safe for them now. Do shed a tear for them all, what with only Malkin, LGF, and 23876349 other nice right-wing dollhouses and tea-parties for them to visit.

    (Sigh.) This is a high-traffic blog, and that means the average quality of comments is bound to be low. I am not condoning floods of invective by any means. But this little dance of pious horror at the offensiveness of the blog environment has worn very, very thin of late.

    It is not reasonable to expect that you must feel absolutely and totally comfortable and at ease in every single web forum. It would be nice if that were so, at least on the left-wing side, but it is not in the least practicable, and it wastes everybody's time when precious people insist that everyone must always be nice and that every single disgusting comment be systematically tracked down and its author be subjected to sensitivity training.

    We are not going to be sidetracked by this prissy drivel at a time when the government is babbling about "keeping nukes on the table" in an atmosphere of "preemptive war". Sorry.

    You might like to try out your ideas on right-wing blogs -- "Let's make things nice for leftists visiting Protein Wisdom! Rush Limbaugh, were you aware that your invective makes leftists uncomfortable?" That ought to be fun.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Anonymous1:47 AM

    BR writes: In fact, Black Panthers and all the rest of the Uprising "Left" of those days -- including nearly all the students up in arms -- were acting in opposition to the Democratic Party and its officials in authority.

    But I insist that is true! It totally is. The "New Left" HATED liberals and Democrats. But still, the Democrats never found a way to distance themselves from the violent radicals who were pursuing similar (not identical) goals, and Nixon promised to deal with them, which is what the public wanted to hear. Believe me, I totally know the contempt with which the radicals held the Democrats. They hated them more than they did Republicans.

    ReplyDelete
  128. Anonymous1:47 AM

    Hypatia... If you can, attempt to hold these two thought in your head: one can reject George Bush, and not be left-wing. I know it is hard, but do try with all your might.

    Hypatia,

    As I have pointed out before, and some here may be aware, this is not something most of us need reminding of. Most here don't read John Birch Society "literature" for fun, like I do. But they were against before you were for him. Some of us here probably wouldn't like them much, either.

    ReplyDelete
  129. whig:

    The Tim Russerts and the rest of them need their own Colbert moments. All it takes is a guest with the courage to turn the tables, to ask questions right back.

    .... and they'll never be invited back again. So's the reasoning of the MSM, at least. They figure the threat of that will protect them. Tough luck, though. They're a dying breed and they don't even know yet about the cancer that's going to kill them from within soon.

    As Glenn has demonstrated with his book, it's a whole new ball game now, and the MSM ... like with pretty much everything else they've missed ... just doesn't get it.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  130. Anonymous1:51 AM

    So... the enemy of your enemy is your uneasy ally, but not necessarily your friend, no?

    Just ask Churchill and Uncle Joe. Don't ask FDR, he was a "useful idiot" and tool of Stalin.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Anonymous1:54 AM

    Arne...As Glenn has demonstrated with his book, it's a whole new ball game now, and the MSM ... like with pretty much everything else they've missed ... just doesn't get it.

    Cheers,

    1:50 AM


    Got to give props where they are due... Freep. We can beat them at their own game. Best game to beat them at. Then change the game.

    ReplyDelete
  132. Anonymous2:02 AM

    Hypatia/Mona,


    Just FYI, one of the reasons I remember you from L2R after all this time was the stunningly rigid adherence to your own right wing orthodoxy and pieties. It made that much of an impression on me. Even there you stood out like an uneven nail or a sore thumb.

    I'm kind of an uneven nail myself. I try to keep my head down.

    "The uneven nail gets pounded down."

    Old Chinese Proverb

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anonymous2:03 AM

    My 2 cents:

    EWO - maybe you are confusing paul's post with one of Glenn's? or maybe there was a post that was removed that i never saw? either way, please stop whining.

    Hypatia -

    I think some of how you characterize your comments as "challenging left wing orthodoxy" (if I might rephrase your statement) is certainly true.

    You also do so in an exceedingly inflammatory and confrontational way.

    This is not to justify the threats or ad hominem attacks on you, which I find reprehensible. I personally welcome the differences of opinion and would regret it if you left, even though I often take great issue with what you say.

    As a person who has read most of the posts here over the last few months, there are certain topics on which you are awfully self-righteous and isolated from every one else in this little sphere. There is something that can be, and often is, extremely infuriating about your certainty and rectitude in stating things (such as the comment I took exception with the other day about Arthur Miller being a fellow-travelling Stalinist) which most of the people here - for better or worse - are going to consider as "off the wall" remarks.

    Certainly a challenge to a flawed concensus is welcome. But a little humility wouldn't hurt.

    the open source truth process

    You admit to having voted for Bush in '04 - perhaps there are some flaws in your decision making process.

    Mayhap we can all learn from each other.

    Oh, and by the way - Michelle Malkin posted the phone numbers of the students, something I would consider a lot more threatening than my e-mail.

    And to everyone who keeps taunting "troll, troll" - my understanding is a troll is someone who would come here just to incite, and antagonize, and make a mess. I don't think this is an accurate characterization of either Hypatia or Bart (jury still out on Shooter, and I can't bring myself to defend the poodle at all).

    That's my two minutes as blog police.

    ::ironic grin in posting a most un-humble post where I ask someone else to display humility::

    ReplyDelete
  134. Anonymous2:06 AM

    Jade spews: Poor little non-leftists. Not even Glenn Greenwald's blog comments are safe for them now. Do shed a tear for them all, what with only Malkin, LGF, and 23876349 other nice right-wing dollhouses and tea-parties for them to visit.

    I despise Malkin and LGF (as you would know about LGF if you googled the Top Ten Bad Americans post Glenn and I crafted). I don't even remember whether that was his choice or mine, because we totally agreed.

    Now sweetling Jade, try this advanced, really complicated thought: one can be a non-leftist and have contempt for authoritarian hate-mongers like Malkin and Charles Johnson. Yes! It is so startlingly true!

    And one can also lament that discourse at this blog has taken a turn toward the level at LGF, without claiming victim status. One might simply like her political discussions, you know, intelligent and -- gasp!-- cerebral.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Anonymous2:07 AM

    But I insist that is true! It totally is. The "New Left" HATED liberals and Democrats. But still, the Democrats never found a way to distance themselves from the violent radicals who were pursuing similar (not identical) goals, and Nixon promised to deal with them, which is what the public wanted to hear. Believe me, I totally know the contempt with which the radicals held the Democrats. They hated them more than they did Republicans.

    There you go -- lumping everyone on the left of you together. As I said, you and I are very close politically, whether you like it or not.

    I just wish you could have seen your way to the thread about Judicial review - not that it was lost, but your voice would have meant a lot.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous2:14 AM

    Hyppie pulls rank:

    How long have you been here? My participation has been virtually from the inception of this blog.

    I have been reading this blog (but not the comments section, because it bores me) pretty much since it was started. Yes, I did actually appreciate your guest posts. Which is why your absurd arguments here as a commenter are so alarming.

    More desperate patronisation:
    If you can, attempt to hold these two thought in your head: one can reject George Bush, and not be left-wing. I know it is hard, but do try with all your might.

    My brother is an anti-Bush conservative, as are a large number of British Tories. (Plug for a specimen of that rare thing, a right-wing anti-Bush blog: Dennis the Peasant.)

    You might like to try holding the idea in your head that the Democrat Party and the Weathermen were not actually the same thing. (There, you see? I can be patronising as well.) Because this is the assumption lying behind your initial claim that Greenwald is illiterate.

    The most celebrated right-wing celebrities are Coulter, Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly. They make a living out of yelling and screaming. It hasn't done their side any political harm at all. Please DO EXPLAIN why Anger (which of course is completely different from Passion) is bad politically, with reference to above phenomenon. We're all desperate to hear it. Because what your knee-jerk response amounts to is that "flooding political opponents with sick, dehumanizing and vituperative messages" is perfectly okay for every single right-wing babbler on the radio, while writing an angry letter to a silly columnist is "mob violence".

    Get. A. Clue.

    ReplyDelete
  137. Anonymous2:17 AM


    Just FYI, one of the reasons I remember you from L2R after all this time was the stunningly rigid adherence to your own right wing orthodoxy and pieties. It made that much of an impression on me. Even there you stood out like an uneven nail or a sore thumb.


    I have remained in friendly contact with two of the liberal authors of that blog, and several liberal commenters. If they hold that view of me, they've done a fine job of hiding it. But the discussion there was much more intellectual, and that might be why the unpleasant dynamic here did not arise.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Now I'm pissed off. This is the people's level paper. If USA Today is scooping the WaPo what does that tell you?

    USA Today says:

    The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.

    The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans — most of whom aren't suspected of any crime. This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist activity, sources said in separate interviews.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Anonymous2:34 AM

    Night Mona, I've got to go teach the next generation as it were :)

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous2:38 AM

    If you're not angry then you're on the take. Simple as that.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Anonymous2:40 AM

    Oh dear God.

    This is my last comment for now (and with any luck forever).

    Hyppie "spews" (to quote Hyppie, who tearfully warns us against writing angry letters to journalists):
    Cohen was invoking that actual angry left that really existed. And it has been plaguing the Democrats since then.

    The angry right has been plaguing the Republicans since then also. Not an assassinating Right, certainly, but an unmistakably vicious phalanx of nippers who sometimes go bananas and do things not mentioned in online integrity pledges, such as murder homos and blow up buildings in Oklahoma.

    ... And? Results?

    THEY LOVE IT! Nuts = votes.

    Just to make it crystal clear:

    I will never buy a book which dehumanises or vilifies conservatives. I will certainly buy a book which criticises Right-Wing Pieties fully, frankly, and without interrupting itself every second paragraph to simper about how only a Frenchman could possibly want socialised medicine, or how exciting it must be to go hunting quails, or how Al Gore lied about inventing the Internets. Okay? Okay.

    PS 1: this blog's comment section is rather bad, but is nowhere near reaching LGF standards of loathsomeness. And you know it.

    PS 2: running around pretending to be the greatest female mathematician of the ancient world makes you look a bit up yourself.

    That patronising enough for you? Just saying.

    ReplyDelete
  142. Anonymous2:42 AM

    Jade writes: You might like to try holding the idea in your head that the Democrat Party and the Weathermen were not actually the same thing. (There, you see? I can be patronising as well.) Because this is the assumption lying behind your initial claim that Greenwald is illiterate.

    I said he was displaying historical illiteracy in claiming it was a "cartoon" to depict the left of that era -- not DEMOCRATS -- as angry. And that's a fact.

    The most celebrated right-wing celebrities are Coulter, Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly. They make a living out of yelling and screaming. It hasn't done their side any political harm at all. Please DO EXPLAIN why Anger (which of course is completely different from Passion) is bad politically, with reference to above phenomenon. We're all desperate to hear it.

    And I cannot abide any of them. At. All. I've spewed disgust with Coulter and O'Reilly most especially, here and elsewhere.

    Do you want to be like them? If you do, I'll spew disgust at you, too.

    I'm not a conservative. Never have been, and especially not of this populist sort that thrives at Fox.

    And I heard some stuff of your brother's issues with Roger Simon and Pajama's Media. I don't know enough to reach any definitive conclusion, but it sounds as if he has grounds to be pissed.

    ReplyDelete
  143. elaine:

    [Anonymous]: He [Dubya] lost the election in 2000.

    Really? By what electoral vote count?

    Didn't you hear? It was close ... five votes to four.

    Five cowardly, anonymous, lying voices making a stunningly bad decision by virtually any legal standard, against four dissents, each of which skewered the false "logic", the lack of consistency, and the absence of any judicial integrity of the anonymous per curiam opinion (which had the chutzpah to claim that it was such a ... ummmm, "unique" ... decision that it should never, ever be followed again).

    Hope that clears things up.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  144. the cynic librarian,
    You can bet that any "flags" set off by this system leads to surveillance of actual conversations. That is the point of datamining.

    Fucking SOB's.

    If the democrats can't get a spine now there is no hope for them at all.

    I think this is just the tip of the iceberg and I am praying for global warming.

    ps
    People, stop your irrelevant sniping. The game is back on.

    ReplyDelete
  145. "benjamin":

    Go soak your head. Rote (and verbatim) repetition is surely about the lamest troll possible.

    You got more of a response than you deserved last time with the exact same lame question. Now go FO, OK?

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  146. Hypatia:

    Cohen was invoking that actual angry left that really existed.

    OK, when we start tying the noose around the neck of the Republicans for Timothy McVeigh, the Freemen, the Minutemen, the various Militias, the Posse Comitatus (you ought to be familiar with those nut-jubs, Hypatia, they're from Wisconsin), David Koresh, the Ruby Ridge nuts, William Butler, the Aryan Nations, the Worldwide Church of the Creator, the Klan (yah, you know, David Duke, Imperial Wizard and Republican nominee for guv'nuh of Louisiana), and all the rest of the RW violent weirdos, yeah, maybe we can start to say the Democrats were Black Panther lovers and all, eh?

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  147. Anonymous3:00 AM

    NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls"

    The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.

    The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans — most of whom aren't suspected of any crime....

    "It's the largest database ever assembled in the world," said one person, who, like the others who agreed to talk about the NSA's activities, declined to be identified by name or affiliation. The agency's goal is "to create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's borders, this person added.

    For the customers of these companies, it means that the government has detailed records of calls they made — across town or across the country — to family members, co-workers, business contacts and others.

    The three telecommunications companies are working under contract with the NSA, which launched the program in 2001 shortly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the sources said. The program is aimed at identifying and tracking suspected terrorists, they said....

    The sources would talk only under a guarantee of anonymity because the NSA program is secret.

    Air Force Gen. Michael Hayden, nominated Monday by President Bush to become the director of the CIA, headed the NSA from March 1999 to April 2005. In that post, Hayden would have overseen the agency's domestic call-tracking program. Hayden declined to comment about the program.....

    The NSA's domestic program, as described by sources, is far more expansive than what the White House has acknowledged. Last year, Bush said he had authorized the NSA to eavesdrop — without warrants — on international calls and international e-mails of people suspected of having links to terrorists when one party to the communication is in the USA. Warrants have also not been used in the NSA's efforts to create a national call database.

    In defending the previously disclosed program, Bush insisted that the NSA was focused exclusively on international calls. "In other words," Bush explained, "one end of the communication must be outside the United States."

    As a result, domestic call records — those of calls that originate and terminate within U.S. borders — were believed to be private.

    Sources, however, say that is not the case.
    With access to records of billions of domestic calls, the NSA has gained a secret window into the communications habits of millions of Americans. Customers' names, street addresses and other personal information are not being handed over as part of NSA's domestic program, the sources said. But the phone numbers the NSA collects can easily be cross-checked with other databases to obtain that information....

    AT&T recently merged with SBC and kept the AT&T name. Verizon, BellSouth and AT&T are the nation's three biggest telecommunications companies; they provide local and wireless phone service to more than 200 million customers.

    The three carriers control vast networks with the latest communications technologies. They provide an array of services: local and long-distance calling, wireless and high-speed broadband, including video. Their direct access to millions of homes and businesses has them uniquely positioned to help the government keep tabs on the calling habits of Americans.

    Among the big telecommunications companies, only Qwest has refused to help the NSA, the sources said. According to multiple sources, Qwest declined to participate because it was uneasy about the legal implications of handing over customer information to the government without warrants....

    The agency was considered so secret that for years the government refused to even confirm its existence. Government insiders used to joke that NSA stood for "No Such Agency."

    In 1975, a congressional investigation revealed that the NSA had been intercepting, without warrants, international communications for more than 20 years at the behest of the CIA and other agencies. The spy campaign, code-named "Shamrock," led to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), which was designed to protect Americans from illegal eavesdropping.

    Enacted in 1978, FISA lays out procedures that the U.S. government must follow to conduct electronic surveillance and physical searches of people believed to be engaged in espionage or international terrorism against the United States. A special court, which has 11 members, is responsible for adjudicating requests under FISA.

    Over the years, NSA code-cracking techniques have continued to improve along with technology. The agency today is considered expert in the practice of "data mining" — sifting through reams of information in search of patterns. Data mining is just one of many tools NSA analysts and mathematicians use to crack codes and track international communications.

    The usefulness of the NSA's domestic phone-call database as a counterterrorism tool is unclear. Also unclear is whether the database has been used for other purposes.

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous3:05 AM

    It Can't Happen Here?

    The USA PATRIOT Act gives the government a blank check to spy on us, prisoners are being held indefinitely without formal charges, and the Bushies are trying to put a uniformed general in charge of a traditionally civilian agency, the CIA.

    In the meantime, a climate of fear and war hysteria is constantly evoked by the semi-official media, and we are told that anyone who questions our policy of perpetual war is aiding and abetting "terrorism."

    Do you see a trend here?

    It is a frightening trend, one that presages the end of our old Republic and the birth of something entirely new and foreign to American soil: fascism. We face something altogether unprecedented: a regime that, having declared a permanent emergency, is now articulating a legal and political theory that justifies extraordinary abridgements of our liberties in perpetuity.

    They can read our e-mails, they can eavesdrop on our conversations, they can spy on dissident groups, and they don't make any bones about it. They claim to be exporting "democracy" and liberty abroad – while, at home, they shrink our liberties.


    -Antiwar.com Editors

    ReplyDelete
  149. Anonymous3:06 AM

    And Jade, about this: Hyppie pulls rank:

    No, you, after several others also did, deemed me a troll. I merely pointed out how unlikely that characterization is in light of the history of my participation here.

    ReplyDelete
  150. Hypatia:

    You think it is a greater outrage for Richard Cohen to disagree with you about Steve Colbert than to send 4,000 emails to him that were replete with mindless, rage-filled, foul-mouthed and even threatening "disagreement." In fact, I see no evidence that you see a thing wrong with that kind of email campaign.

    Take a deep breath. OK. Slow, now. Richard Cohen's e-mail address was printed at the bottom of his freakin' column! I even sent him an e-mail. I said I thought he was funny. And kindly pointed him over to Atrios, where the people were laughing their heads off about him....

    You do seem to get incensed about the weirdest things sometimes, Hypatia. Do try and get a clue, OK? Just because you're on-board on the more egregious and obvious outrages of the Dubya maladministration doesn't mean you've quite gotten the hang of it. And that's friendly advice, Hypatia, OK?

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  151. lastname: You can bet that any "flags" set off by this system leads to surveillance of actual conversations. That is the point of datamining.

    The information in this article contradicts hwat Hayden has said publicly. In his public statements the good general said that they don't take in millions of calls etc. This article contradicts that. I hope some of the good senators asks about this contradiction.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Hypatia:

    Marain is right. With words I wish I had the sense to use. You're confusing "anger" with "violence". They are not the same. You need to learn that. Or you will simply be an exemplar of pointless anger manifested in rather misguided ways, the very same thing you so excoriate the radicals of the '60s for....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  153. Hypatia:

    Word to the wise:

    Anyone who punctures those balloons is, by definition, a troll; sub-human, someone you should first slap and then strangle if I were in your presence, a moron and a cretin, ugly, and the ever-popular fascist. That is what increasingly passes for intelligent discussion here.

    You've managed to botch a few things here lately that really seem to be below your apparent abilities. That has irritated some, some to the point of rather reactionary rhetoric. But you need to step back and maybe see what it is that has provoked such a strong and pretty much unanimous outcry (myself included). Some humility and some mea culpas for some of your vestigial RW tendencies (the Swift Boat crapola comes to mind; you were given the references and ignored them) might do a lot to keep people's tempers from flaring. We're here to help you. Even if you don't appreciate it. :-)

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  154. the cynic librarian,
    If this doesn't bust this whole thing open with the democrats and the "major" media then things are much worse than even I could imagine. Did you ever have the feeling the only reason the NYT ran the Risen story was because his book was going to reveal it anyway?

    Dianne Feinstein is looking particularly foolish.

    I swear I will vote republican if the democrats can't stand up. If I am going to be raped it will be by someone that can look me in the eye while they do it.

    I am fucking angry if you can't tell:) This USA today story tells me I am not the only one.

    ReplyDelete
  155. Paul Rosenberg [from a previous posting]: I't been eons since I last read The Fall of Public Man. But I must admit I always read it through the lens of the Port Huron Statement--that is, the New Left's call for participatory democracy--which gave a somewhat different emphasis.

    Paul, the comment I used Sennett to refer to was about the pollution of the public sphere, as you put it. I suggested that it was not the cons who did it, but that it'd been done well before that. I used Sennett to justify that comment, since one of the themes of that book is about the depoliticization of the public sphere. This has been done by various socio-economic factors inherent to capitalism.

    In the place of politics, Sennett argues in that book, the media (who now serve as the mediators and channels of the public discussion) have put personality and private feelings and emotions. Instead of politics now, what we see covered are lifestyle issues and investigations of how people feel about things--not the investigation of the political/social ramifications or underlying causes of their situation.

    I see this as a subsumption of political issues and a carving up of different political issues into easily consumable artifacts which the consumer society finds sellable. It can be seen in how the 60s and 70s movements were emptied of their political content and the cultural and other aspects of the movement separated out and sold as so many lava lamps.

    The media treats every political statement as just such an advertising message. This is a statement you made and which I agreed with. You suggested, however, that this was something the cons accomplished. I suggested that both political parties exploit it. Need I mention more than "focus groups" to indicate how the Dems play the same game as the cons?

    You raise other issues about the labor movement. I believe that the labor movement was killed long before Reagan. Reagan just drove the stake into the vampiric body that was then called the labor movement. As you will know, the demise of the labor movement was orchestrated before the second world war by industiralists following the principles laid out by Bernays and others. John Dos Passos' novels are a great protrayal of these events.

    I apologize for the rather scattered nature of these remarks. It's been something of a long night. But I did want you to know that I had not forgotten about your posting and I did wish to respond to your very knowledgeable comments.

    ReplyDelete
  156. Anonymous3:38 AM

    I have remained in friendly contact with two of the liberal authors of that blog, and several liberal commenters. If they hold that view of me, they've done a fine job of hiding it. But the discussion there was much more intellectual, and that might be why the unpleasant dynamic here did not arise.

    2:17 AM


    I love L2R and ObWi but they are a more rareified atmosphere. I spoke only for myself, no one else. This is like stepping from the lecture hall to the beer hall on campus after class. Beer halls have a prominent place in politics, some good, (early meetings of the continental congress were held in taverns on the run from the British), and some bad (that putsch thing). The point is, it's going to get "less delicate" than you may be used to. No one here means you any harm. Have a beer. You'll be fine.

    ReplyDelete
  157. lastname: I am fucking angry if you can't tell:) This USA today story tells me I am not the only one.

    It does say a lot. I still think that USA Today is the workingperson's newspaper. It's a national version of NYC's Daily News. That this news about NSA makes it into this paper will definitely get the NSA story to the street. How they'll respond is less predictable.

    I can imagine that we'd be talking about some version of just more distrust of the government and further convincing them that the President is a liar. That's about the only that has stuck with most people.

    That's because people don't like to be sold a bill of goods. Perhaps this story in USA Today will ram home the truth that not only has Bush sold them a bill of goods, he's also made fools of them. He's laughing at them to boot.

    Perhaps this story will burst that bubble that some people still have that Bush is just a good ole boy. When you start talking about techno stuff and using it to listen to people's phone calls--that's just not what a good ole boy would do. That's what commies do.

    ReplyDelete
  158. Anonymous3:43 AM

    Or have some tea... but I wish you would read that Counterpunch article up thread.

    An Academic Bill of Rights?
    David Horowitz's Odd Gripe

    ReplyDelete
  159. The Cynic Librarian linked an article in USA Today that shows just how widespread and damaging the eavesdropping program has really been. Here's the link again: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm

    Here's a quote: "The agency's goal is "to create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's borders, this person added." Raise your hands if you think the feds can legally track when and what number X telephone has called, where X = every telephone in the country.

    I point this out because Bart has long claimed that if it were ever discovered that the federal government has been eavesdropping on people who are not in fact terrorists, he would be just as furious as the rest of us. Feel the rage?

    Here's classic Bart: "I am not giving up a scintilla of my freedom under this NSA program and neither are you unless you are making foreign calls to al Qaeda telephone numbers."

    Au contraire.

    Here's an exchange we had in the same thread:

    me: You also haven't explained why you believe that the paranoids in the executive branch aren't in fact wiretapping domestically, even though they've said it's within their rights to do so.

    Bart's comeback:

    Your ongoing delusions are not my problem to solve...

    1) The WH has never claimed that it had the right to perform intelligence gathering in domestic to domestic calls. I am really not sure why they are drawing their line there since the Supremes actually left that issue open in the Keith case.

    2) While I am a fan of X-Files, I don't tend to have paranoid delusions about the government tapping my telephone. It is not up to me to disprove your paranoid delusions. If you have some evidence, present it.


    Check and mate. Your personal telephone history is in that database, Bart. I guess you must have been calling some members of Al Qaeda in another country.

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous3:48 AM

    This is like stepping from the lecture hall to the beer hall on campus after class.

    Yes, this site is become a beer hall. Perhaps it is time to recognize that and for me to act accordingly.

    The thread below was only a brief return to intelligent discourse. People now check in for red meat and to get pumped up on anger. Recognizing that reality likely should dictate behavior.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Anonymous3:55 AM

    "Hypatia" said...
    And Jade, about this: Hyppie pulls rank:

    No, you, after several others also did, deemed me a troll. I merely pointed out how unlikely that characterization is in light of the history of my participation here.


    Lighten up. Trolling can be fun, parody trolling, anyway. If done well it's high art. Where do you think Colbert got his chops from? He honed is art and instrument at SCTV and TDS, but his personna and material came from the internets.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous4:04 AM

    "Hypatia" said...
    This is like stepping from the lecture hall to the beer hall on campus after class.

    Yes, this site is become a beer hall. Perhaps it is time to recognize that and for me to act accordingly.

    The thread below was only a brief return to intelligent discourse. People now check in for red meat and to get pumped up on anger. Recognizing that reality likely should dictate behavior.


    Well Hypatia, if you are that stuffy, that's your issue, not ours. One of my most memorable and lasting friendships from my days at university is the relationship developed over many beer with the brilliant physics grad student who taught the astronomy lab I had to take for my GE reqs. He didn't like me on sight that first day. After a few beers it was a steady diet of talking politics and women and theoretical physics. He loved to talk detonation waves and he was a an unapologetic leftist back then. Scary huh?

    ReplyDelete
  163. the cynic librarian,
    You can be damn sure they are doing this with email and website activity too. It would be foolish not to log that information also. Maybe the Bush admin can sell all this info to eHarmony.com so at least I can get a couple "compatible" dates out of this.

    This new info certainly puts the governments "request" for search engine data into a new light.

    Is USA Today now part of the "liberal" media?

    ReplyDelete
  164. Anonymous4:22 AM

    There is no nuance, or complexity. No ambiguity. No people who undergo dramatic transformations--or even gradual evolution.



    No humour that I can find. That's why I'm a degenerate leftist. Larry the Cable Guy and Drew Carey just aren't funny. Better yet, just ask Dennis Miller if comedy and conservatism are compatible. I think he's doing NetZero commercials now. Now that's funny!

    ReplyDelete
  165. Anonymous4:23 AM

    My research and experience is that the presidential elections have been rigged since 1960. The Disposable Presidents have been set into campaigns, placed into the presidency and then, more often then not, left to twist slowly slowly in the wind as the military-industrial-organized crime complex routinely covers up its quadrennial designs and practices.

    This statement which was written by a blog host whose name I lost before I could copy and include it is one which supports whatever research I myself have done thus far.

    Whether or not the electoral votes would have shifted enough to have given Nixon the Presidency in 1960 I don't know. I do know the evidence is persuasive that Illinois was stolen from Nixon although I don't see too much discussion of that these days on the Internet.

    Whatever else he was, Nixon gets credit for doing the second most important domestic thing any President has done.

    One ended Slavery. Nixon ended the Draft which made slaves of all those who were drafted regardless of race.

    The war affected as well the presidential elections of 1968 and 1972. In 1968, the candidacy of Hubert H. Humphrey was significantly weakened by the bloody confrontations in Chicago at the Democratic National Convention between youthful critics of the war and the police.... In a law and order campaign, he also appealed to those who abhorred antiwar and other unruly demonstrators.

    ReplyDelete
  166. Anonymous4:30 AM

    Geronimo Pratt. Good point. That brought me to COINTELPRO and other books, one by a person who's name I won't mention here because Hypatia would have an attack of apoplexy. It's all been out into left field from there. I don't regret a moment of it. If the left were as violent as Hypatia seems to think, Alan Berg would still be alive and the Murrah building would still be standing.

    ReplyDelete
  167. Anonymous4:37 AM

    And so Hyp continues:

    Hollywood and NYC celebrities hosted parties for them, and they were considered an integral part of the revolution against the nation, nevermind that they, like, killed people.


    I can do that, too...

    Hollywood and NYC celebrities hosted parties for them, and they were considered an integral part of the establishment and the nation, nevermind that they, like, killed people.

    But I'm talking about Crazy Joey Gallo and his pals, and my statement is actually true.

    ReplyDelete
  168. Anonymous4:44 AM

    This gives short shrift to the actual amount of celebrity and influence he had at the time. They made movies about him and his kind... they still do. (Shhhh! They were bad but at least they were white.) I can't wait for the HBO series based on the life of Fleeta Drumgo.


    Joey Gallo strutted out of jail in 1971 a changed man. He was still a psychopathic, antisocial killer, but he was a well read psychopathic antisocial killer who had explored his sensitive side. He had taken up oil painting and read the great works, Camus, Kafka and those guys. He could even quote a few lines from their work when he wanted to impress someone, and Crazy Joe was all about impressing someone.

    In the late 1960s, the wonderful Jimmy Breslin knocked out a wonderful book based on the Gallo's, called "The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight" and Hollywood made out a film about it.

    Joey wasn't all that excited about the book or the film or Breslin either for that matter. He didn't like being portrayed as the head clown in an idiot factory. Nonetheless, he invited Jerry Orbach, the New York actor who portrayed him in film, over to his massive Greenwich Village apartment for dinner. The Orbach's loved Joey and introduced him to their world.

    But Joey never brought them into his world, which was still that patch of urban decay called the Red Hook, over in Brooklyn.

    He never told them how he worked a deal with the devil himself, Carlo Gambino, to whack Joe Colombo. He never told them how he had convinced a slow witted Black man named Jerome Johnson to murder the mob boss in the middle of Columbus Square in 1971, with assurances that Gallo's people would create a disturbance so he could escape. Colombo's goons plugged Johnson so many times, they're still counting the holes.

    After Joe Colombo got whacked, some nutcase in media made up a story that what was left of the Colombo family management put out an open contract on Crazy Joe's life, but that's not true. In those days, the bosses had at least some common sense. You don't leave a contract to chance so that any moron with a six shooter can collect a finder's fee. There was another story that Crazy Joe got whacked because he put Joe Colombo to sleep. That's not true either. Colombo was a nutcase, he had it coming to him and he knew it.

    No, they whacked Crazy Joe for the same reason everybody else gets whacked, because he got greedy, and he got stupid, and as a result, he got dead.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Anonymous4:53 AM

    The guy was a star... high profile, like gotti years later. I'd have to say gangsters and mobsters have more of an affinity with the right, than the left?


    Concluding part

    On April 7, 1972, Crazy Joe Gallo caught the cab that took him to see the angels.

    It was Joey's 43rd birthday, and his sister arranged a small party for him at the Copa over in Manhattan. Joey dressed in a black suit that night.

    The party arrived at the Copa Cabana at 11:00 P.M., just in time for the midnight show, featuring Don Rickles. Joey loved it. It relaxed him and he needed to relax.

    They were joined by actor Jerry Orbach and wife and comedian Jerry Steinberg and his date. A parade of well wishers dropped by the table to shake the hand of the small, rail-thin gangster in his shiny, black, pin-striped suit. Gallo was happy.

    At 4:00 A.M. the Gallo party is the last to leave the restaurant. The group consists of Robert Bongiovi, AKA Bobby Darrow, one of Gallo's two bodyguards and a convicted rapist who was tossed out of the army, had met a woman and skipped out early. The remaining group, Gallo, his wife, Sina, a dental assistant he had married three weeks before, her ten year old daughter from a previous marriage, Lisa Essary, Joey's sister, Carmella Fiorello and Peter Diapoulos, AKA Pete the Greek.

    The Greek is married with four children at home, but is out for the evening with a lady friend, Edith Russo.

    They pile into Gallo's black Cadillac, which is plastered with stickers "A.I.D," an acronym for Gallo's latest money-making scam, "Americans of Italian Descent."

    Inside the car, someone suggests they grab something to eat, Gallo agrees and suggests Chinese food and Pete the Greek swings the car around to Chinatown, but the entire place is closed.

    "Go across the street," Gallo says and Pete the Greek swung the car across Canal Street and into Little Italy. The only thing open is a new place, on the corner of Hester and Mulberry Streets, Umberto's Clam House.

    They park and climb out of the car. They pass the portion of the street where Marlon Brando, as Don Corleone, was shot at the fruit-stand as his son Fredo watched in horror. Joey saw the movie and he liked it, but he thought that some of the death scenes were "too flashy."

    He wasn't around when part two of the film premiered and showed a reenactment of Joey's older brother Larry getting duped into a 1961 peace meeting at the Sahara Lounge, a bar room in Flatbush, that was run by a guy named Clemenza who was a pal of Joe Profaci's.

    It went down just like they showed it in the movie too. One of Joe Profaci's best soldiers, a hood named John Scimone, was waiting for him outside the bar. Scimone gave Larry a $100 bill as a goodwill gesture.

    They went into the bar, which was closed. Clemanza was alone inside, wiping glasses. The room was dim except for a bar light from a beer advertisement. Larry and Scimone talked at the bar, when Carmine "The Snake" Persico and Sally D'Ambrosio slipped up behind him and threw a rope around Larry's neck and started to strangle him, when the side door to the bar opened and a cop named Eddie Meagher walked in and asked Clemanza: "What's go'n on in here? You open or what?"

    Then he saw Larry Gallo's feet hanging out of a telephone booth, he reached for his weapon as Scimone, Persico and Sally D ran past him and started a gun battle out in the middle of the street with Meagher's partner who was waiting in the patrol car.

    That was 1961. Then Larry died of throat cancer and when Joey got sprung he took over the Gallo's tiny, hand-to-mouth operations in Red Hook. And then Joe Colombo got clipped and Crazy Joe Gallo was talking about taking over the entire family....


    Questions? Comments? Hypatia?

    ReplyDelete
  170. Anonymous7:02 AM

    Shooter242 said...

    "Yessiree Bob. I think you folks should get out there and write nasty letters to anyone and everyone, and then riot in the streets. Yeah, that's the ticket, rioting. It worked well in Seattle after all."

    As long as you are making suggestions I think I should make one for your side too Shooter.

    "Could there be a third President Bush? The current chief said Wednesday that younger brother Jeb would make a great one, too, and has asked him about making a run. The first President Bush likes the idea as well."

    I think that it would be a great idea for the Repubs to nominate and run Jeb for President in 2008.

    ReplyDelete
  171. Anonymous7:31 AM

    YES, MYRA

    ReplyDelete
  172. Anonymous7:45 AM

    Glenn--please remember the crux of marlowe's argument: it wasn't anger that lost in 68, it was apathy. And thank you thersites for your excellent post and introducing me to your blog. Triangulation/centrism/dlc'ism is the heart of the current problem.

    ReplyDelete
  173. Anonymous8:03 AM

    "Activism is a two headed beast, without anger it lacks focus and momentum, without hope, it can only lead to despair."

    ReplyDelete
  174. Anonymous8:25 AM

    I noticed at least twice in this column the implication that Bush won in 2000. Didn't he actually lose? What did I miss?

    ReplyDelete
  175. Anonymous9:03 AM

    peggyinrollamo said...

    "I noticed at least twice in this column the implication that Bush won in 2000. Didn't he actually lose? What did I miss?"

    You didn't miss anything. There are a few people who post here that play fast and loose with the facts when trying to support their arguments.

    ReplyDelete
  176. Anonymous9:07 AM

    Another great piece. Thanks. Dead on. I thought the anger issue was internalized by the Kerry campaign and resulted in their willing vicitimization by the Republicans.

    Just an offhand observation about the anger issue. It is part of the pyschobabble arsenal of right wingers. I have seen way too times when right wingers resort to pyschobabble when trying to respond to issues of policy and mere fact (eg. global warming). Suddenly personality and motiviation become thee issue.

    Calling out "angry liberals" is sometimes not so much about anger as about right wingers fundamental belief that liberals are not authentic people who are basically mentally ill. Anger (mostly invented) is simply one of the symptoms to them that proves their worldview.

    Whether or not liberals are actually angry doesn't matter in the end. In the end, right wingers will find some "mental defect" to hang on their opponents. Which is why it is fruitless give into the preception ("oh let's not look angry"), as it will be something else the next time.

    ReplyDelete
  177. Anonymous9:19 AM

    Anonymous said:

    "Whether or not liberals are actually angry doesn't matter in the end. In the end, right wingers will find some "mental defect" to hang on their opponents. Which is why it is fruitless give into the preception ("oh let's not look angry"), as it will be something else the next time."

    Excellent point, now if Nancy Pelosi would just read your post and take heed we might get somewhere.

    ReplyDelete
  178. Anonymous9:41 AM

    Arne Langsetmo said...
    "benjamin":

    Go soak your head. Rote (and verbatim) repetition is surely about the lamest troll possible.

    You got more of a response than you deserved last time with the exact same lame question. Now go FO, OK?

    Cheers,

    2:48 AM


    errr....

    was this in response to me?

    ReplyDelete
  179. Anonymous9:57 AM

    The funniest part of Cohen's piece is his leap from a few angry e-mails to visions of street violence. Hysterical much?

    He raises the spectre of 1968 and then fails to take note of the fact that it was the Chicago police department (that hotbed of angry liberals) which was responsible for the things turning violent at the convention. The police rioted.

    In 1968 the anger was bipartisan. But the violence ... well, read the history of 1968 for yourself (Mark Kurlansky, 1968, The Year That Rocked the World and decide.

    It's what Richard Cohen should have done before he started spouting off.

    ReplyDelete
  180. Anonymous9:57 AM

    peggyinrollamo said...
    "I noticed at least twice in this column the implication that Bush won in 2000. Didn't he actually lose? What did I miss?"
    gris lobo said:
    You didn't miss anything. There are a few people who post here that play fast and loose with the facts when trying to support their arguments.


    Dear Peggy,
    Yes, Bush won and the recount confirms it, in addition the important Supreme Court vote was 7-2.
    The reason you think otherwise is that you've been lied to. Let me demonstrate. Here is a blog entry
    declaring that a Mr. Sammon is uttering falsehoods regarding this.

    The salient paragraph is this....
    Sammon's claim that the court decided the case 7-2 was a reference to opinions by two of the dissenting justices -- David H. Souter and Stephen G. Breyer -- agreeing with the majority that the recount as ordered by the Florida Supreme Court violated the Equal Protection Clause. But, contrary to Sammon's claim, their position was not that the recount should be halted, but that the case should be remanded to the state court to correct the constitutional infirmity.

    What isn't made clear is that there are multiple questions to be answered, mainly, is the recount Constitutional, and what is to be done about it. The important question as the text says is that by a vote of 7-2 the recount was not Constitutional. It was a violation of the Equal Protection clause.

    As for whether Bush won, a consortium of major newspapers did recounts under various scenarios to see what would have happened.
    Here is the result according to PBS, the most neutral source I could find.

    More than three months after Democrat Al Gore conceded the hotly contested 2000 election, an independent hand recount of Florida's ballots released today says he would have lost anyway, even if officials would have allowed the hand count he requested.

    Bush won. Bush won under the most likely scenarios for recounts. But if you include all the different variations of hanging chads, overvotes, absentee ballots, and marks made on the ballots, it is indeed possible to find a combination under which Gore won. That is what is being presented to you as fact. Rather like woulda, coulda, shoulda. More like an urban myth.

    ReplyDelete
  181. Anonymous10:02 AM

    Gris Lobo says:
    I think that it would be a great idea for the Repubs to nominate and run Jeb for President in 2008.

    The plan is for McCain to win in '08, Jeb after that.

    ReplyDelete
  182. Anonymous10:05 AM

    By what moral right do you condemn Michelle Malkin for her having knowingly sent hordes of vicious right-wingers to the email and voicemail boxes of students who protest military recruiters? You think it is a greater outrage for Richard Cohen to disagree with you about Steve Colbert than to send 4,000 emails to him that were replete with mindless, rage-filled, foul-mouthed and even threatening "disagreement."

    Not the same thing, and you must know it, Hypatia.

    Cohen is a high-profile figure in the media who occupies some of the most desirable real estate in journalism. The students Malkin targetted were anything but.

    Besides, I think Cohen's idea of a "threatening email" might fall a bit short of what most reasonable people would consider threatening - he's shown himself to be quite the wilting violet, after all.

    ReplyDelete
  183. Anonymous10:14 AM

    Okay, I read through the whole thread just to see if anyone had made (what I consider) the crucial amendment To GG's brilliant post:

    DIVISION OF LABOR

    You need a lot of angry people to win elections. But you *must*, at all costs, keep your candidate from appearing angry.

    GG is right. The Democratic party has got to employ anger. But we also have to INSULATE our top candidates from that anger. They have got to be likeable, affable, sunny, and generous.

    Who am I describing? Reagan, and Bush II (or rather, their carefully constructed personae). They have highly un-angry public faces--and whenever Bush II gets angry (pouty, in his case), he looks very unattractive and loses votes.

    How does modern Republicanism work? It works by putting Reagan out front, and putting Meese in the background. Bush I out front, and Sununu in the background. Bush II out front, and Rove in the background. Got it? Genial, likeable buffoon out front: psychopath behind.

    What happens when you put the angry face at the head of the ticket? Ask Pat Buchanan. And, I would say, ask Howard Dean--not that he *was* anywhere near as angry as a Buchanan, but rather that Rove saw that by painting him that way, he could sink him. And it worked.

    Look, Limbaugh and O'Reilly and the rest of the anger-mongers: they are doing yeoman work for the Republicans because they *don't run for office*. They know their job: keep the base angry, so that the *genial* clown can win.

    So here's what's right about the Cohenesque line that anger will kill the Democrats: an angry *front man* will indeed kill the Democrats, or the Republicans (again, cf. Buchanan).

    What's wrong about Cohen--well, that's what GG put so well: without an angry base, without angry mouthpieces, without angry loyalists, lieutenants, and troops, you don't have a movement.

    But this point is so simple, and so easy to miss: the American people does not want to *elect* those angry people to public office.

    Your best anger-guys are your mid-level celebrities who don't stand for election--Limbaugh, Falwell, Robertson, etc.--who can thus do all the dirty-work for the genial headliner.

    When Kerry was savaged by the Swift Boat lies, what should he have done? Not much different, I'd say--he probably just should have smiled more and said "there you go again" (ask yourself: what would Reagan have done?).

    But everyone *from Kerry on down* should have filled the airwaves with howls of outrage. Every democratic senator, governor, and dog-catcher should have gone on the war-path, pumping out the anger. (But senators are top-ticket people; shouldn't they avoid anger? Do I contradict myself? No, just a further amendment: Senator X will suffer for being angry in their own election on their own behalf, but less or not at all for being angry on behalf of President Y).

    Okay--I've gone on too long. Simple message: Anger is like fire. Can't live without it. Can't let it spread uncontrollably. A passionless party won't get out the vote. But an angry *candidate* is seldom an electable candidate.

    ReplyDelete
  184. Anonymous10:15 AM

    Shooter242 said...
    Gris Lobo says:
    I think that it would be a great idea for the Repubs to nominate and run Jeb for President in 2008.

    The plan is for McCain to win in '08, Jeb after that.


    Yes. We all know about Republicans and their plans. Iraq, for instance.

    From the latest NYT poll.


    Hillary Clinton - 34%
    John McCain - 31%
    Al Gore - 28%
    John Kerry - 26%

    I think the angry majority wants someone more angry, and to the left. See you there, pooter.

    And your link to PBS is RE: the 2000 recount is laughable. Considering that you used to hate it when it had a "liberal bias" (read just normal). Since 1994 the Goopers have been neutering it. Now it's just a shell of it's former self. It's Fox News without T&A.

    ReplyDelete
  185. Anonymous10:22 AM

    divide said...
    Okay, I read through the whole thread just to see if anyone had made (what I consider) the crucial amendment To GG's brilliant post:

    DIVISION OF LABOR

    You need a lot of angry people to win elections. But you *must*, at all costs, keep your candidate from appearing angry.


    Interesting point. I agree with you, but see no danger of any Democrat going off. Have you? Furthermore, Reagan isn't my idea of a role model. Mr. Smith goes to Washington was fiction,(like Reagan's image) and fiction from a long, long time ago. There are many different ways to express anger so it's expression is appropriate, constructive, entertaining even, and a force for change for the better and the good of all. A fire in the belly is what the people want.

    ReplyDelete
  186. Anonymous10:24 AM

    Case in point: One of the reasons people on the left like Al Franken, but don't love him, is because he is too affable.

    ReplyDelete
  187. Anonymous10:30 AM

    It looks like there will be more folks dropping by soon who will be in for a bit of "culture shock".

    Bush, GOP Congress Losing Core Supporters

    ReplyDelete
  188. Anonymous10:35 AM

    In re: the 2000 election, not so fast on the draw, Shooter; there is certainly dispute and ambiguity, but your assertion that Bush definitely won is not borne out by the reality. Under SEVERAL recount scenararios, each using different standards for evaluating the votes, GORE won.

    http://mediamatters.org/items/200603160002

    Moreover, this is not even to consider the THOUSANDS of voters who were disenfranchised that day in Florida: many voters in predominantly black communities were turned away from their polling places, directed to go elsewhere, or asked to show identification which was not part of the normal process of voting. Many of these people, either frustrated at the runaround they were being given, or having to go to work, never did return to vote. Then there are the thousands of voters who had their right to vote stripped from them, as they were alleged to be felons who had no right to vote. The list of these alleged felons was provided by a Bush-friendly company called DBT, now owned by ChoicePoint of Atlanta. The list was later found to be riddled with errors, with thousands of those listed not having any criminal records. This has never been disputed by the state of Florida, and in fact has been acknowledged by them. The persons on the "can't vote" list had been purged from the voting rolls merely because their names were the same as or similar to the names of felons drawn from a nationwide database.

    No fair-minded person can deny that in 2000, the election fix was definitely in, and Gore should have been the rightful winner.

    ReplyDelete
  189. Anonymous10:35 AM

    Al Franken--

    what point does he constitute a case in support of?

    I was making the point that Americans like their *top-ticket* candidates to be genial and affable, and distrust top=-icket people with an angry image, while they will tolerate much more raw anger from mid-level, non-candidates.

    I didn't take a stand on whether mid-level celebs do better with more or less affability mixed in to their anger (whether one finds O'Reilly etc. affable is, I suspect a matter of taste, or more accurately, a matter of sociology: if you are a white male of a certain stratum, you will find him very affable, even as you credit him for being angry about the important things).

    So I said: too much visible anger--> not electable.
    (e.g. Buchanan)

    You say: too little visible anger-->not a successful mid-level celebrity
    (e.g. Franken).

    We aren't necessarily agreeing here, and you *may* even be supporting my case, i.e. that Democrats would *like* Franken, as a designated attack-dog, to do his attacking more dutifully.

    (What was it Sununu said to Bush I, "I'll be your pit-bull for you"? It takes a lot of pit-bulls to work behind the electable golden retrievers.)

    ReplyDelete
  190. Dan Lewis:

    Here's classic Bart: "I am not giving up a scintilla of my freedom under this NSA program and neither are you unless you are making foreign calls to al Qaeda telephone numbers."

    Au contraire.

    "Oh, but you see, they weren't listening in on the calls, just recording every single call ever made ... except on that traitorous Osama-loving Qwest network (which will shortly be charged en masse with sedition for "helping the enemy on a time of war") ... and besides, they weren't collection any personally identifying information (other than phone numbers, who called who, and when, and for how long, and such, I mean) ... and anyways Dubya's Article II powers clearly allow him to do this if he needs to do this so I'll keep from wetting my pants (and don't, don't tell me about the ports, I don't wanna know about it, please), and you just don't know if he actually caught me calling that 900 number last Friday and can't you just shut up? Shut up? Just SHUT UP!!!....."

    <*/BARTfoam>

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  191. nick:

    was this in response to me?

    No. It was in response to "Benjamin's" Xerox copy post (6:44 PM) of another he'd put on a previous thread.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  192. Anonymous11:09 AM

    robert says:
    there is certainly dispute and ambiguity, but your assertion that Bush definitely won is not borne out by the reality. Under SEVERAL recount scenararios, each using different standards for evaluating the votes, GORE won.

    LOL. Only if you ignore the reality of Bush getting more votes. In fact that IS what we are talking about here, reality. Under the scenario Gore wanted, Bush won. Anything else is fantasy. You can come up with scenarios until you are blue in the face, but the reality is that Bush won. Fair and square, before and after the recount. Being a sore loser is not an attractive characteristic.

    No fair-minded person can deny that in 2000, the election fix was definitely in, and Gore should have been the rightful winner.

    The Yankees should have won the World Series, but they didn't. Like it or not there was a deadline for resolving all issues and it passed. The election is over and all the people who can't accept defeat are starting to sound just like rednecks bemoaning the loss of the Civil War. Good Lord man, if Gore had just won his home state it would have been his. Worse, his strategy and your defense was to cherry pick certain Dem areas for recount. How dishonest is that?

    But in the end this is one of those contentions by Democrats that nullify that "righteous" anger meme. Between this, backtracking on Iraq, blaming Bush for 9/11, and a host of smaller slights, how can you folks demand any respect? This is exactly the kind of thing that undercuts your claim to leadership. Who wants to follow two-timing wussies?

    ReplyDelete
  193. shooter242, like the good Dubya-b***sucker he is, does his duty:

    Dear Peggy,
    Yes, Bush won and the recount confirms it, in addition the important Supreme Court vote was 7-2.


    He gets trounced in a previous thread, and then goes on to repeat his lies anew someplace else. "Facts" are malleable, and "we're creating our own reality" (as someone from the maladministration so inadvertently but accurately put it).

    Four dissents. But Shooter ran out of paws to count them on.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  194. Anonymous11:14 AM

    I was making the point that Americans like their *top-ticket* candidates to be genial and affable, and distrust top=-icket people with an angry image, while they will tolerate much more raw anger from mid-level, non-candidates.

    Considering he replaced one of the most popular, genial and affable presidents in American history, it's no wonder he wasn't as popular, especially when he went after McArthur. he was right to do so, but Harry S Truman was anything but genial and affable. Eisenhower wasn't either, nor Nixon. If you want a guy you can go out and have a beer with, keep voting for dorks like Bush, not that I would have a beer with the guy, as affable as he may appear to you. As Chris Matthews says: "Everyone loves the president, except for those whackjobs on the left."

    31%

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  195. Anonymous11:16 AM

    Arne... Four dissents. But Shooter ran out of paws to count them on.

    Cheers,


    Tripod, the 3-legged dog.

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  196. Anonymous11:25 AM

    In the midst of wrestling with the blogger software, it occured to me how the NSA debate undercuts the anger meme.

    So you're angry about a technical violation of the law. Not the action itself, but the technical violation of the law.

    Why should anyone care about the legal technicalities of spying on Al Qaeda, if everyone is agreed it's a good thing? Has anyone said tracking down Al Qaeda members is bad? What is there to get button-busting upset about? It makes no real sense, it is obviously a charade.

    Everybody gets upset about lawbreaking, but the dissonance of yelling about a technical aspect of an action that's wanted, is going to have to be resolved at election time. Once the issue is examined by the voters, the action taken in their best interest (spying on Al Qaeda) will always win out.

    Oneof the anomalies of the polling data if you look at pre-election 1994 is that Bush came out behind in most categories. But he still won.
    Perhaps you should consider the above as one reason why.

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  197. Anonymous11:29 AM

    I didn't take a stand on whether mid-level celebs do better with more or less affability mixed in to their anger (whether one finds O'Reilly etc. affable is, I suspect a matter of taste, or more accurately, a matter of sociology: if you are a white male of a certain stratum, you will find him very affable, even as you credit him for being angry about the important things).


    Oh, look! Here they come! The defectors, (or people who would now enjoy a beer with O'Reilly more than Dubya)!

    Arne... Four dissents. But Shooter ran out of paws to count them on.

    Cheers,

    Tripod, the 3-legged dog.


    Shooter,

    Do you have to lean against the tree you are peeing on to keep from falling over?

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  198. Anonymous11:36 AM

    Anonymous ...

    Arne... Four dissents. But Shooter ran out of paws to count them on.

    Cheers,

    Tripod, the 3-legged dog.

    Shooter,

    Do you have to lean against the tree you are peeing on to keep from falling over?


    Not pooter... He just pees on himself.

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  199. shooter242:

    What isn't made clear is that there are multiple questions to be answered, mainly, is the recount Constitutional, and what is to be done about it. The important question as the text says is that by a vote of 7-2 the recount was not Constitutional. It was a violation of the Equal Protection clause.

    Nope. The cowardly anonymous per curiam holds in Part I (right there in the last sentence, for the slow of reading) an "equal protection violation" (curiously enough, they find such absent any factual record to base this on).

    But here's how it works: When people concur in part and dissent in part, they say so. Like, "Justice [x], concurring as to Part I and dissenting as to Part II...", or "concurring as to Part I but dissenting as to remedy..." None of the dissenters did any such thing. They all, to a person, said "[D]issenting".

    The cowardly per curiam authors, in an attempt to grab a fig leaf, lied and claimed that the dissenters were agreeing with them as to Part I. Simply not true (and this wasn't the only lie of the per curiam authors; they also misrepresented the Florida Supreme Court's holding).

    Here, straight from Breyer's opinion, is what he said about any equal protection violation:

    "And the more fundamental equal protection claim might have been left to the state court to resolve if and when it was discovered to have mattered." Dubya v. Gore, Breyer dissenting.

    Breyer at least had the presence of mind to say: "Hey, let's first see if there actually is any merit to the EP claim, when we actually have some facts to work with." Matter of fact, he said the state courts, dealing with state election laws, were entirely up to the task.

    Similarly with Souter's alleged "concurrence".

    Pretty sad when you have to insist on making your opponent's argument for them in order to win your debate.


    As for whether Bush won, a consortium of major newspapers did recounts under various scenarios to see what would have happened.
    Here is the result according to PBS, the most neutral source I could find.


    More than three months after Democrat Al Gore conceded the hotly contested 2000 election, an independent hand recount of Florida's ballots released today says he would have lost anyway, even if officials would have allowed the hand count he requested.

    Strangely enough, Dubya profited most from the loosest standards for counting undervotes. But overvotes are also important (amd in some counties, in "stealth" manual counts such overvotes were counted again and included in the "certified" totals), and when these were examined statewide, Gore came out ahead. Asked later, Judge Lewis said that he had been aware of the question of the overvotes and may well have ordered them to be examined as well if he'd been allowed to proceed.

    And that's not counting the "felon" purges that Harris did, and the infamous butterfly ballots in Palm Beach that had thousands of elderly Jewish voters casting votes for Buchanan.

    Bush won. Bush won under the most likely scenarios for recounts. But if you include all the different variations of hanging chads, overvotes, absentee ballots, and marks made on the ballots, it is indeed possible to find a combination under which Gore won....

    Ummm, if you include the overvotes, Gore came out ahead. Dubya does best with the loosest standards for counting "hanging chads" but he still got less votes if the overvotes are counted. Pick your standard for "undervotes", you still don't find a count that Dubya won if the overvotes are counted.

    ... That is what is being presented to you as fact. Rather like woulda, coulda, shoulda. More like an urban myth.

    Just looking at who got the most votes, Shooter. That was Gore.

    Cheers,

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