A virtual celebration is taking place among Bush-following bloggers because they think there has been a major discovery which proves once and for all that The Commander-in-Chief did nothing wrong when ordering warrantless eavesdropping on Americans even though the law makes it a criminal offense to do exactly that. They believe that magical new discovery shows that George Bush isn't the only to one to violate surveillance laws.
Franklin Roosevelt, they claim, also broke the law when ordering eavesdropping, and for some reason, they seem to think this constitutes a defense to Bush's lawbreaking. Powerline laments: "It is astounding that so little note has been taken of President Roosevelt's actions in connection with current controversies." Matthew Franck at National Review claims that "practically every constitutional argument now ginned up by the Democrats against George W. Bush’s NSA surveillance program was met and turned aside by FDR." All of this hoopla is based on a single article from that magazine so well-regarded for its scholarly articles in history and law, The American Spectator.
Despite the outburst of joyous hysteria among Bush followers -- "hey look - new discoveries show that the Leader isn't the only one to have broken the law!" -- none of this is new. Here, for instance, is an October, 2001 article from Slate's David Greenberg discussing Roosevelt's pre-war surveillance activities in the face of the wiretapping prohibitions in the Communications Act. Greenberg was reviewing the history of wiretapping abuses from the Roosevelt administration through the Nixon administration in order to provide context for the then-pending amendments which were supposed to fix the problems with FISA. For multiple, painfully obvious reasons, these claims about Roosevelt do not remotely provide a "defense" for Bush's violations of the law:
First, all other issues aside, it ought to go without saying -- but apparently it does not -- that to prove that Franklin Roosevelt engaged in wrongdoing or broke the law does not constitute a defense for George Bush's lawbreaking. It isn't news that other Presidents have broken the law. Richard Nixon broke the law, too. Proving that other presidents acted illegally doesn't exonerate George Bush from his deliberate acts of lawbreaking. That's just obvious.
Second, the ambiguities in the eavesdropping prohibitions in the Communications Act during Roosevelt's presidency were manifest. The wiretap ban was generated by concern over the Hoover-led FBI's domestic law enforcement efforts against violations of prohibition laws. As a result, the law specifically made it a crime not merely to intercept communications but to "divulge or publish" the content of those communications. Thus, it was far from clear whether the law prohibited wiretapping for foreign intelligence gathering purposes, as opposed to domestic law enforcement purposes. That was the ambiguity which Roosevelt believed justified his use of eavesdropping in order to monitor foreign espionage activities.
By contrast, FISA has no ambiguity, and not even the Bush administration claims it does. To the contrary, its title -- Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act -- makes plain that it applies to eavesdropping devoted to the collection of foreign intelligence, and FISA expressly applies both in times of peace and in times of war. In sum, there is no question that FISA prohibits exactly the warrantless eavesdropping in which the Bush administration deliberately engaged, and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales unambiguously admitted this at his December 19, 2005 press briefing with Gen. Michael Hayden:
Now, in terms of legal authorities, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act provides -- requires a court order before engaging in this kind of surveillance that I've just discussed and the President announced on Saturday, unless there is somehow -- there is -- unless otherwise authorized by statute or by Congress. That's what the law requires.
The Bush administration does not claim that there is ambiguity as to whether FISA encompasses the type of warrantless eavesdropping the President ordered. There is no ambiguity. It prohibits such eavesdropping on its face, and the administration admits this. It's true that they peddle legal theories arguing that they have the right to engage in warrantless eavesdropping notwithstanding FISA's criminal prohibitions of that eavesdropping, but they do not deny -- and they never have -- that FISA unambiguously outlaws precisely the type of eavesdropping the president ordered.
Put another way, Roosevelt understood the law to permit the eavesdropping activity he ordered. He therefore believed he wasn't breaking the law but was acting in compliance with it. By fundamental contrast, Bush understood perfectly that FISA prohibited exactly the eavesdropping he ordered -- there can be no doubt that FISA covers exactly this situation -- but he ordered the eavesdropping anyway because he believes he has the power to act even in violation of Congressional statutes. Roosevelt believed that he was complying with the law. Bush knew he wasn't but did it anyway because the theories of lawbreaking he has adopted vest in him the power to break the law. Those acts are not comparable. They are opposites.
Third, and perhaps most importantly, to point out that there have been past instances of eavesdropping abuses in this country -- as though that somehow justifies Bush's violations of FISA -- is backwards logic. As David Greenberg discusses (and as I document at length in my book), the domestic surveillance activities of World War II steadily expanded in scope and abuse -- from Truman's interception of all telegraphs transmitted in the United States to the FBI's sweeping surveillance of political figures such as Martin Luther King, Jr. under Kennedy and Johnson, and culminating with the extraordinary wiretapping abuses of the Nixon administration. Indeed, as Greenberg notes, "Roosevelt specified that his order applied to espionage by foreign agents," and the scope of that order steadily expanded under Truman, Eisenhower, and subsequent presidents, to include U.S. citizens.
All of these surveillance abuses, uncovered and documented by the 1976 report of the Church Commission, shocked and outraged the country. In the aftermath of those revelations, Americans demanded that clear-cut, definitive limits and safeguards be placed on the Government's powers to eavesdrop on American citizens.
The lack of safeguards on the eavesdropping powers exercised by Roosevelt and subsequent presidents is exactly what led the nation to enact FISA -- for the specific purposes of prohibiting those abuses by criminalizing warrantless eavesdropping and allowing eavesdropping only with judicial oversight. Americans in 1978, by consensus (the vote in the Senate approving FISA was 95-1) made it a crime to eavesdrop without warrants because they wanted to put an end to the history of abuse by past administrations, and they thus made the law crystal clear that warrantless eavesdropping would henceforth be a crime. To cite that history of abuse by past Presidents as though it somehow justifies violations of FISA is illogical and perverse beyond what can be described.
This "defense" would be like justifying violations of recently enacted anti-drunk-driving laws by pointing out that people used to drive drunk and got into accidents with great frequency, and therefore there is nothing wrong with people violating anti-drunk-driving laws now. Of course people drove drunk previously. That's precisely why the country enacted stringent laws criminalizing that activity. Going into court and defending some DUI defendant on the ground that many other people drove drunk in the past is not even a coherent argument, and yet that is what this new claim amounts to -- "past presidents illegally eavesdropped and therefore Bush is justified in violating the law that Americans thereafter enacted in order to prohibit such eavesdropping abuses."
In 1978, Americans made it a crime for their government to eavesdrop on them without judicial approval -- and they expressly applied that prohibition both to peacetime and wartime. The fact that an argument can be made that Franklin Roosevelt may have violated a much more ambiguous statute does not even remotely justify George Bush's violations of the crystal clear FISA. George Bush has no right to engage in behavior which the American people through their Congress made it a criminal offense to engage in. Period. That his followers are scraping around for arguments such as "55 years ago, Roosevelt did something similar" is a pretty good indication of how sparse are the available defenses.
UPDATE: One other point is worth making here. Whatever doubts existed as to whether national security demands entitled a President to violate the law were fully and unambiguously resolved by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1952, when it ruled in Youngstown Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U.S. 579 (1952) that President Truman's claimed need to sieze the steel factories in order to support the nation's Korean War effort did not entitle him to act contrary to Congressional intent that he not have seizure power. As Justice Jackson put it in his Concurring Opinion:
The essence of our free Government is "leave to live by no man's leave, underneath the law" - to be governed by those impersonal forces which we call law. Our Government [343 U.S. 579, 655] is fashioned to fulfill this concept so far as humanly possible. The Executive, except for recommendation and veto, has no legislative power. The executive action we have here originates in the individual will of the President and represents an exercise of authority without law.
No one, perhaps not even the President, knows the limits of the power he may seek to exert in this instance and the parties affected cannot learn the limit of their rights. We do not know today what powers over labor or property would be claimed to flow from Government possession if we should legalize it, what rights to compensation would be claimed or recognized, or on what contingency it would end. With all its defects, delays and inconveniences, men have discovered no technique for long preserving free government except that the Executive be under the law, and that the law be made by parliamentary deliberations.
Any presidential claim of lawbreaking powers was smashed by Youngstown. And let's just repeat that last excerpted line again: "men have discovered no technique for long preserving free government except that the Executive be under the law, and that the law be made by parliamentary deliberations."
Another example of how power and money allow clowns to interrupt serious discussion.
ReplyDeleteThe history is inateresting, the analogy doesn't fit, and the present issue remains clouded but unchanged. Nevertheless, Glenn, you believe (correctly) that you should address another ridiculous argument.
This administration needs to go because it interferes with our ability to accomplish anything useful.
Bush’s followers argument basically boils down to “yeah, but others did it too” which was an excuse I tried to use as a young child. To which my mother would always reply: “well, if your friends all ran off a cliff would you do it too?”
ReplyDeleteI don’t think I ever had a good come back to that one.
Roosevelt believed that he was complying with the law. Bush knew he wasn't but did it anyway because the theories of lawbreaking he has adopted vest in him the power to break the law. Those acts are not comparable. They are opposites.
And isn’t that exactly why Bush wants Hayden – his demonstrated willingness to break the law?
That’s the point Johnathon Turley makes today:
While alleged violations of federal laws have long been viewed as a negative resume item, it doesn't appear to be a problem for Bush's inner circle.
From his very first appointments, Bush appeared inclined toward officials who appear willing to treat the law as a mere technicality.
Hayden earned his bones by implementing the NSA operation despite clear federal law declaring such surveillance to be a criminal act. He can now join the rest of the made men of the Bush administration.
They can’t admit that Bush’s policies are based upon either circumventing or breaking laws he finds cumbersome, so they try to find someone else to point a finger at. Yes, their arguments are now mere distractions.
Those retorts are downright elevated compared with what I get when they're stumped. Suddenly, a blue dress & worse are injected into the conversation.
ReplyDeleteConsider yourselves lucky.
They're not saying that just any old "past presidents" did it: the argument is more like "Abe Lincoln engaged in plainly illegal wiretapping" or "Gandhi drove while drunk" or "Jesus shot a man in the face, too." If FDR did it, and we liberals all love FDR, then apparently we should be overwhelmed with cognitive dissonance. Interestingly, this bizarre logic fits with what GG has said about Bush worship--it seems to make sense to them that "if beloved president X did it, it can't be wrong," and they naturally project that bizarre logic onto us.
ReplyDeleteSo if one person robs a bank, it is illegal.
ReplyDeleteBut if two people do it, it is okay.
Or is it two people rob a bank each?
Or is it if someone robs two banks?
Actually, the better comparison might be one where they would argue that since everyone on the highway is speeding, then it must NOT be illegal for us to speed as well.
I think some cops might love to hear that argument.
Wow your argumentation is deadly. I would not want to face you in open court. I pray that the Democrats'consultants and advisers are reading your blog.
ReplyDeleteIt's like a big flashing neon sign: "look, you can take a principled stand on the constitution, earn respect and demolish your political rivals at the same time. A Dem Trifecta."
Great great work.
The former NSA chief who helped write the FISA laws, on Bush's NSA wiretapping (from Wired.com):
ReplyDeleteFormer National Security Agency director Bobby Ray Inman lashed out at the Bush administration Monday night over its continued use of warrantless domestic wiretaps, making him one of the highest-ranking former intelligence officials to criticize the program in public, analysts say.
"This activity is not authorized," Inman said, as part of a panel discussion on eavesdropping that was sponsored by The New York Public Library. The Bush administration "need(s) to get away from the idea that they can continue doing it."
AssRocket "is" a "lawyer", non?
ReplyDeleteBesides Glenn knocking down this argument like the straw man it is, they also said FISA was "out-of-date" and obsolete by virtue of its birthday in 1978. How is it that FDR's questionable activities then justify Bush's lawbreaking for these guys?
Well-written and convincing, as usual. This defense is pretty obvious, which leads me to believe that this meme about FDR is being propagated simply to muddy the waters.
ReplyDeleteOur best defense is some easy to understand, concise talking points to totally, quickly discredit this false equivalence between FDR and Bush. Your work is extremely valuable in that regard.
Has anyone doped out who is running the shop? Bush? Cheney? An oligarchy? A larger comittee short of full cabinet? In any case, the number of actors is low.
ReplyDeleteI have a few guesses but would like to know if anyone here has some insights. It's obvious that even if Bush were a genius, also good at conserving time; he wouldn't have time to read bills, analyze, & dream up 750 signing statements with all his other committments. Of course, there's a very, very large staff; but who is/are the director(s) of this charade.
If this is off topic today, it can wait.
Common glenn, an excessive amount of verbage and grandiocity, virtually all of it irrelavant.
ReplyDeleteWhy does chimpy break the law?
CUZ HE CAN!
According to Morgan Reynolds, the first (and only) adminstration insider that speaks out against the current criminals in the White House - the reason is these are amoral, criminal people that do not give a damn about anyone else.
QUITE TALKING LIKE THE FACT THEY ARE "UPPER CLASS" WHITE PEOPLE THAT THEY MUST BE HONEST!!!!!!
They stole 2 elections!!!!
GREAT CRIMES DEMAND EVEN MORE CRIMINALITY!
Please stop the excessive mental masterbation and just admit to yourself, committing crimes is what criminals do!
Anyone care to wager how Bart and company will respond to this one?
ReplyDeleteWant to see something really amazing?
ReplyDeleteSome on the right are even using the I word with respect to Bush. Granted, this is the extreme right. Like Bart, who is slightly more moderate and better educated... and the bone they have to pick with Bush is over immigration. Put on your HazMat gear and enter the Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler:
Jorge Bullshito Strikes Again
Posted on May 9, 2006 @ 4:28 pm
Comment by L.C. Rowane
Didn’t this idjit take a vow to protect and defend the constitution from ALL enemies fregin and domestic? I think he’s starting to show his true moonbat colors.
Posted on May 9, 2006 @ 4:36 pm
Comment by Cheryl
And I thought I could not have any more contempt for a president than I did for Klinton and Karter. Jorge just keeps getting more and more arrogant. He has violated his oath of office in so many ways.
Posted on May 9, 2006 @ 4:49 pm
Comment by bloodyspartan
I never thought I would be for impeachment but I a now.
This is what the Klinton administration does. Sell us out.
I can no longer tell the difference. The republicans will never get another dime as long as I am alive.
A little farther down thread they talk about having to "water the tree of liberty" if Hillary gets elected. Don't worry. They just plan direct violent action against the state at the compound, drink lots of beer and end up taking a beer drunken, midnite whizz in the neighbor’s shrubbery.
Common glenn, an excessive amount of verbage and grandiocity, virtually all of it irrelavant.
ReplyDeleteWhy does chimpy break the law?
CUZ HE CAN!
Please stop the excessive mental masterbation and just admit to yourself, committing crimes is what criminals do!
Go start a blog and just keep repeating over and over - CHIMPY IS A CRIMINAL!!! I'm sure that will convince a lot more people and do a lot more good than all of Glenn's fancy-pants logical and substantive arguments.
CHIMPY IS A CRIMINAL! Gee, I can feel the landslide now.
Put another way, Roosevelt understood the law to permit the eavesdropping activity he ordered. He therefore believed he wasn't breaking the law but was acting in compliance with it.
ReplyDeleteExactly. That American Spectator article -- and there is hardly a less reliable right-wing journal/blog on the planet -- falsely claims FDR was relying on his "inherent authority." Nonsense. He clearly stated, in the quotes the piece itself provides, that he believed he was not violating the law as interpreted by the SCOTUS.
Further, FDR's AG, Robert Jackson (discussed and quoted in the article), would go on to author the prevailing Opinion in the controlling case in these matters, namely, Youngstown. And therein Jackson virtually ridicules notions of "inherent authority" as a license for a president to violate a law of Congress.
There is so much that is dishonest and wrong with that AmSpec article, one hardly knows where to begin.
Despite the gggrrrrrr factor, I suppose this is good news, once one ingests Glenn's analysis, the "Rosevelt did it too" stance seems to add a few more nails to the coffin. Spectre must be having more and more problems with his, "Bush did it in good faith" defense.
ReplyDeleteMichael... Or, they'll just make it up and say, "Clinton did it too!" even if he really didn't.
ReplyDeleteClinton did everything. Clinton, (and the all-powerful Clenis™) is the root of all evil. All evil flows from the Clenis™.
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteFor multiple, painfully obvious reasons, these claims about Roosevelt do not remotely provide a "defense" for Bush's violations of the law:
First, all other issues aside, it ought to go without saying -- but apparently it does not -- that to prove that Franklin Roosevelt engaged in wrongdoing or broke the law does not constitute a defense for George Bush's lawbreaking. It isn't news that other Presidents have broken the law. Richard Nixon broke the law, too. Proving that other presidents acted illegally doesn't exonerate George Bush from his deliberate acts of lawbreaking. That's just obvious.
You are grossly misrepresenting the argument concerning the FDR precedent to create a strawman argument.
FDR's intelligence gathering was never presented as an example of "law breaking." Rather, it is another example of the President legally exercising his Article II powers to defend the nation. This precedent is yet another filet knife gutting your argument that Mr. Bush's actions are somehow "novel."
Second, the ambiguities in the eavesdropping prohibitions in the Communications Act during Roosevelt's presidency were manifest. The wiretap ban was generated by concern over the Hoover-led FBI's domestic law enforcement efforts against violations of prohibition laws. As a result, the law specifically made it a crime not merely to intercept communications but to "divulge or publish" the content of those communications. Thus, it was far from clear whether the law prohibited wiretapping for foreign intelligence gathering purposes, as opposed to domestic law enforcement purposes. That was the ambiguity which Roosevelt believed justified his use of eavesdropping in order to monitor foreign espionage activities.
OK, you are essentially arguing that the President is no perfectly legal ground if the statute in question is ambiguous. So far, so good. Let's proceed...
By contrast, FISA has no ambiguity, and not even the Bush administration claims it does. To the contrary, its title -- Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act -- makes plain that it applies to eavesdropping devoted to the collection of foreign intelligence, and FISA expressly applies both in times of peace and in times of war.
Ah, but you are citing the wrong statute.
Justice is arguing that the AUMF waived FISA so far as it could apply to gathering intelligence against al Qaeda and its allied organizations. Previous to the disclosure of the FDR precedent, you primary rebuttal to this point was that the AUMF was ambiguous and did not specifically address intelligence gathering. Now that a Donkey icon is on the dock, you now claim that ambiguity should be interpreted in favor of the President. If this is your current position, then the AUMF waived FISA.
Put another way, Roosevelt understood the law to permit the eavesdropping activity he ordered. He therefore believed he wasn't breaking the law but was acting in compliance with it. By fundamental contrast, Bush understood perfectly that FISA prohibited exactly the eavesdropping he ordered -- there can be no doubt that FISA covers exactly this situation -- but he ordered the eavesdropping anyway because he believes he has the power to act even in violation of Congressional statutes.
HUH?
Let me see if I get this straight...
Roosevelt was acting in good faith because he honestly believed that the congressional statute did not bar his intelligence collecting.
But, Bush is acting in bad faith because he honestly believed based on extensive case law that he had the Article II authority to perform his intelligence collection which would by definition override FISA.
Double standards anyone?
Third, and perhaps most importantly, to point out that there have been past instances of eavesdropping abuses in this country -- as though that somehow justifies Bush's violations of FISA -- is backwards logic.
You are apparently running out of arguments. 3 is a repeat of the strawman argument you made in 1.
Paul: It corrupts the very existence of the public sphere. And that is precisely what the conservative movement has done.
ReplyDeletePaul, I think this happened well before the conservative meovement, as argued by Richard Sennett in his book on the fall of public man. Conservatives merely exploited a vaccuum that was already there. Both parties exploit this.
A public spere invovles the precondition of location. There is no location in a modern secular society. The internet and web are supposed to take the place of that location, but that is an illusion. The illusion is that we are somewhere on the internet but we're actually nowhere.
The present-day conditions for public discourse cannot appeal to what used to be called the public spehere. Instead, it must appeal to a much starker emptiness--the emptiness of private beings trying to attain some form of community but without the conditions necessary for recognizing, building, and sustaining that community.
The forces behind the emptying of the public sphere are economic. Market forces and the lifeways produced by the capitalistic system determine the conditions for what passes as meaningful statements and the response to those statements. Your examples of advertising and marketing are spot on in this regard.
Alastair Haannay, in his book On the Public describes the emptiness of the modern public sphere:
We are then, in effect, at the outset, all of us outsiders. Worse, we are otsiders with no control. Instead of the citizen having an investment, the citizen is an investment, an investment handled by the economic powers that determine the safe future of the state, which in turn pampers and protects those privacies upon whose consumerist possibilities and habits its sponsors depend. In so far as the private citizen is the investment, what reaping the rewards of that investment requires is the continual expansion of the public sphere in which privacies can fruitfully but always still privately operate. (P. 79)
In this scenario, the political parties are just as much captive to the underlying logic of the economic system as are any others. They simply try to curry favor with the powers that control that system (if there is anyone) to reap the benefits.
How is it a defense to say "other Presidents violated the spirit of the constitution" when the administration is STILL engaging in domestic wiretapping?
ReplyDeleteIf it's wrong why are they continuing to do it?
whig said...
ReplyDeleteTurley's article is awesome, by the way. He is saying, point blank, and he's correct, that the Bush administration is not incidentally corrupt. It is intentionally corrupt, it is an organized criminal syndicate.
And judging by the brazen way they are looting their own country, not to mention Iraq, they themselves realize they won't be in a position to do so for much longer. Previous parasitic Republican administrations knew better than to drain the host of blood. This crowd seems to realize they will never get a shot at the trough like this ever again.
Unfortunatly how this plays out doesn't depend on what Powerline or Atrios have to say. When all is said and done, what happens depends on the 60% of Americans who aren't paying attention. That's why the best thing the Bloggers can do at this point is keep holding the mainstream media accountable for their continuing to aid in the cover-up.
ReplyDeleteYoungstown 1
ReplyDeletebart 0
FDR's intelligence gathering was never presented as an example of "law breaking." Rather, it is another example of the President legally exercising his Article II powers to defend the nation.
ReplyDeleteOne more time for you, Bart, in terms that anyone can understand:
(1) When Bush ordered the NSA to violate the law in 2001, the only justification the Justice Dept. invoked was the "inherent power" argument, not the AUMF argument. The AUMF justification was only found much later.
(2) Therefore, when Bush ordered the NSA to eavesdrop without warrants, he did so because he believed that he had the power to act in national security areas even in ways that the law prohibited. The theory they relied upon - and have since stated many times -- is that the President has the "inherent power" to violate the law in all national security matters.
(3) As Hypatia pointed out, Roosevelt -- unlike Bush -- did NOT invoke any claims of "inherent power" to violate the law. That is because Roosevelt did not believe that the law prohibited what he was doing. He stated expressly that the law allowed that eavesdropping.
(4) To summarize:
The Bush administration knew that the law prohibited the eavesdropping they ordered.
The Roosevelt administration believed that the law allowed the eavesdropping they ordered.
Bush asserted the right to act in violation of the law. Roosevelt did not.
I realize that the sort of simplistic obfuscation in which you engage worked for a few years to make Bush a popular president. It isn't working any longer. Americans are not that politically attentive, but they aren't dumb either.
They know their good faith in the government was abused to convince them to fight a war against a country they thought had planned 9/11 and was developing nuclear weapons, and as a result, they listen a lot more carefully - and with a lot more skeptacism - to the things people like you are saying.
The result? 31%.
Bart...Now that a Donkey icon is on the dock
ReplyDeleteThat's "in the dock". The elephant is on the block (chopping block). Hickory Dickory Dock. Bart tries to run out the clock. Bart loses his tail. Wait. That's Three Blind Mice.
Bart:
ReplyDeleteIf the president claims the legal authority to override an existing statute, then it seems to me that this legal proposition ought to be tested in court.
As Glenn points out, to the degree that it has been tested, the President has been required to act within the laws of the land.
I assume, however, that you are all for a legal test of the President's theory, right?
Glenn Greenwald said...
ReplyDeleteOne more time for you, Bart, in terms that anyone can understand:
(...)
The result? 31%.
12:40 PM
Even I can follow that, Bart. And I haven't yet finished my first cup of coffee.
georgelo said...
ReplyDeleteYoungstown 1
bart 0
Did any of you pick up on the fact that AG Jackson was defending the Roosevelt intelligence gathering against Congress before Justice Jackson wrote the concurrence to the Youngstown case?
This is only trivia since Youngstown has nothing at all to do with Presidential Article II authority to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering. However, since you brought up this irrelevant case, I thought I would bring up some further trivia.
Just throw this back in their face.
ReplyDelete"FreeRepublic On Fisa 11/30/2000 - A Trip Down Memory Lane
Bart and others need to read Glenn's post from last December quoting Jackson in Youngstown on the issue of "inherent authority." Jackson repudiates it, especially when such claims flout the legislated will of Congress.
ReplyDeleteAnd Bart: It may well be the case that Jackson had to argue w/ Congress about wiretaps and warrants. The AmSpec article says he didn't want that body to impose warrant requirements, which makes sense in the national security context vis-a-vis open, public courts.
As Robert Bork has written, the solution to such concerns, enacted in 1978, was FISA, which established a secret court, and required warrants to be secured from it. Bush is violating that "solution" -- aka a law -- and Jackson's Youngstown Opinion squarely forecloses that he may do so.
Did any of you pick up on the fact that AG Jackson was defending the Roosevelt intelligence gathering against Congress before Justice Jackson wrote the concurrence to the Youngstown case?
ReplyDeleteMoron - Hypatia made this exact point 10 comments earlier. But I think it will not suprise anyone that you don't read anything other than the crap you spew here. That's how egomaniacal blowhards always are.
However, since you brought up this irrelevant case, I thought I would bring up some further trivia.
This is why I hate Bart - a Supreme Court case in which the court rejected a President's asserted need to do X in order to protect the nation's security in a time of war which, but violated Congressional intent, is "irrelevant" to the NSA scandal -- in which exactly the same thing happened.
That is why the only thing interesting about Bart is figuring out if he is more stupid or more dishonest. Honestly, I vote - with certainty - for the former.
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteNice to hear from you. You usually studiously avoid answering my points.
Bart: Glenn, you are grossly misrepresenting the argument concerning the FDR precedent to create a strawman argument. FDR's intelligence gathering was never presented as an example of "law breaking." Rather, it is another example of the President legally exercising his Article II powers to defend the nation. This precedent is yet another filet knife gutting your argument that Mr. Bush's actions are somehow "novel."
To start, you appear to be conceding my initial point that you misrepresented the arguments presented by the conservative blogs as I discussed above.
Let us move on to your arguments which are unrelated to the portion of my post which you quoted...
One more time for you, Bart, in terms that anyone can understand:
Oooh, sounds like I hit a nerve.
(1) When Bush ordered the NSA to violate the law in 2001, the only justification the Justice Dept. invoked was the "inherent power" argument, not the AUMF argument. The AUMF justification was only found much later.
Agreed. Justice instructed Mr. Bush that several previous court cases have held that he has the power under Article II to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering.
(2) Therefore, when Bush ordered the NSA to eavesdrop without warrants, he did so because he believed that he had the power to act in national security areas even in ways that the law prohibited. The theory they relied upon - and have since stated many times -- is that the President has the "inherent power" to violate the law in all national security matters.
You are again being misleading by referring to FISA as the binding law in this case. The supreme law of the land is the Constitution. The Constitution gives the President and not Congress the power to direct and conduct intelligence gathering. Therefore, any Con Law I student knows that Article II trumps FISA in the area of intelligence gathering.
(3) As Hypatia pointed out, Roosevelt -- unlike Bush -- did NOT invoke any claims of "inherent power" to violate the law. That is because Roosevelt did not believe that the law prohibited what he was doing. He stated expressly that the law allowed that eavesdropping.
Correct again...and irrelevant. The purpose of presenting the precedent of the FDR intelligence gathering is to show that Mr. Bush is acting well within the precedent of previous Presidents and nothing he is doing is novel in any way. Thus, the image you have been peddling of Mr. Bush as a rogue president is a complete fabrication.
(4) To summarize:
The Bush administration knew that the law prohibited the eavesdropping they ordered.
The Roosevelt administration believed that the law allowed the eavesdropping they ordered.
Bush asserted the right to act in violation of the law. Roosevelt did not.
This syllogism is completely incorrect.
Mr. Roosevelt merely made an argument that a law around which he wanted to go was "ambiguous." He had no legal precedent on his side.
In contrast, Mr. Bush has precedent from 4 courts of appeal in decisions where cert was denied by the Supreme Court holding that he has the Article II power unencumbered by the 4th Amendment to conduct warrantless electronic intelligence gathering.
That begs the question of whether Mr. Roosevelt and not Mr. Bush was acting in good faith.
I realize that the sort of simplistic obfuscation in which you engage worked for a few years to make Bush a popular president. It isn't working any longer. Americans are not that politically attentive, but they aren't dumb either.
They know their good faith in the government was abused to convince them to fight a war against a country they thought had planned 9/11 and was developing nuclear weapons, and as a result, they listen a lot more carefully - and with a lot more skeptacism - to the things people like you are saying.
The result? 31%.
Letter from Iran. What did it say, what did the Bush Administration say it said, and how would the blogosphere respond to the letter itself?
ReplyDeleteThis underscores another section of the letter, in which the Iranian president makes his debut as a media critic, putting his critique of Western news outlets during the run-up to war with Iraq in some pretty familiar terms. After excoriating the media for ratcheting up the climate of fear that accompanied 9/11, he writes:
"In media charters, correct dissemination of information and honest reporting of a story are established tenets. I express my deep regret about the disregard shown by certain Western media for these principles. The main pretext for an attack on Iraq was the existence of WMDs. This was repeated incessantly – for the public to finally believe – and the ground set for an attack on Iraq."
Just as the canard that Iraq possessed WMD was accepted as an article of faith by the stenographers who call themselves American journalists, so similar fabrications about Iran are being readied for unveiling by the same crowd. Judith Miller may no longer be writing for the New York Times, but there are no doubt platoons of accommodating news hounds more than willing to take her place as a major conduit for the War Party's lies.
President Ahmadinejad is hardly done with his media critique, however: he continues his comments about 9/11, and makes an astonishing accusation. After expressing his sympathy for the U.S., he goes on to question why no one charged with protecting the American people was ever put on trial: and it is true that not a single U.S. government official was so much as fired, let alone charged with dereliction of duty. Some Western critics of the Bush administration's handling of the 9/11 crisis note this, too, but Ahmadinejad's questioning of this curious fact goes much further:
"All governments have a duty to protect the lives, property, and good standing of their citizens. Reportedly your government employs extensive security, protection, and intelligence systems – and even hunts its opponents abroad. September 11 was not a simple operation. Could it be planned and executed without coordination with intelligence and security services – or their extensive infiltration? Of course this is just an educated guess…."
Surely it was more than a guess, however, that prompted certain Western media outlets, including Fox News, to claim that one intelligence service in particular may have had advance notice of the 9/11 terrorist attacks...."
Highly interesting article and must read.
Here's a thought but first a disclaimer. I have absolutely no information about Iran that I haven't read on the Internet so I have no basis to conclude anything about Iran, its leaders, its capabilities or its intentions. Like almost everyone, I only know what I read and I try to sort it out as best I can.
Having said that, what if, for example, the man from Iran who wrote this letter were to post a guest blog on say, this blog or Huffington Post stating his positions?
Citizens of this country could respond and ask questions directly to him, including any journalists and government officials who chose to participate in the discussion. Obviously this has the usual pitfalls, including that this man may be totally insincere and using such a forum for disinformation.
But that applies equally to any individual who gets the ear of the American people. If he's lying and distorting the facts, the Internet can expose each incorrect fact or assertion that he makes.
As Glenn has been demonstrating on this blog on a daily basis, one of the best ways to debunk the assertions and arguments of others is to address them head on and expose their defects by countering inaccuracies with the actual facts.
Why is sole communication with a foreign nation's leaders left in the hands of a secretive government whose revelations thus far have themselves been distorted, inaccurate, and incomplete?
If this is a government by, for and of the people, wouldn't the blogosphere be a representative agent for those people to participate in matters which so directly affect their lives?
The UAE representatives were given ample opportunity to address the American people during the Port Deal controversy on television although that nation had direct links to individuals involved in 9/11.
We are not at war with Iran. Why can't their representatives address on an interactive basis the American People themselves?
Could the People do any worse than the present Government itself has been doing?
Or maybe the collective efforts of informed Americans can help to make the world a more peaceful place? I understand that might interfere with the interests of the War Party and the Oil Crowd and maybe even Wall Street, but did they ever openly participate in a Presidential debate and reveal their platforms so people would know what they were getting when they keep electing these people who rarely follow through and represent the people?
Jennifer?
Jefferson owned slaves, so it's perfectly understandable if Bush does.
ReplyDeleteHa ha, liberals!
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI like how everyone's arguing about the fine points of whether AUMF trumps FISA but we have to frame the whole debate on the question as to whether the president can be trusted. Or stated another way, how likely is what he is saying to be true? Recent history suggests that since almost everything he said about the justification for invading Iraq turned out to be false, our confidence in his justification for the NSA domestic spying program needs to be equally suspect.
ReplyDeleteOf course the above is a RIDICULOUS understatment but, then again, we wouldnt want to sully our political discourse with unnecessary snark, would we?
Bart... That begs the question of whether Mr. Roosevelt and not Mr. Bush was acting in good faith.
ReplyDeleteFunny thing is, they kept re-electing FDR to office and would still have been re-electing FDR to the office long after he passed away if not for the 22nd Amendment.
Glenn... I realize that the sort of simplistic obfuscation in which you engage worked for a few years to make Bush a popular president. It isn't working any longer. Americans are not that politically attentive, but they aren't dumb either.
They know their good faith in the government was abused to convince them to fight a war against a country they thought had planned 9/11 and was developing nuclear weapons, and as a result, they listen a lot more carefully - and with a lot more skeptacism - to the things people like you are saying.
The result? 31%.
Paul,
ReplyDeleteGreat post. I often find myself pissed that we actually have to "argue" with people about torture, spying on Americans, wars built on lies. What fucking country is this again?!
Bart,
Spying on Americans is ILLIGAL. Period. Read this:
http://www.wired.com/
Click on the ex-NSA chief article, then realize that you are full of shit. I know it makes you feel good to play around here but that is pretty much all you are accomplishing. Your product does not sell here. We cnat take seriously someone who says that the left "supports" terrorists as you havee mentioned on many occasions. This is America and I can disagree with anyone. Even the "commander in chief" especially durring war because he is doing terrible things in our name. America is nothing without laws, and nothinng but a dictatorship if the pres thinks he is above them when "protecting" us. So stop making lame excuses for all the shit that they do just because you are a scarred little child who doesn't know/has forgotten what America stands for.
Eyes Wide Open said...
ReplyDeleteAll government is inherently evil.
We get it.
Bart -
ReplyDeleteNobody here buys the whole "Article II" argument you've been pushing.
The fact the Administration itself hasn't brought that argument to the Supreme Court - which it could and should *if* they were serious about respecting the Constitution, its provisions, and the rule of law generally - is a strong indicator of how little credence it has.
You claim Roosevelt had no legal prescedent upon which to fall back on. No argument there. Neither does Bush, who is expressly blocked from ordering the sort of wiretapping and surveillance under discussion by the FISA statute.
You claim Article II empowers the President to order this activity, under the rubric of "intelligence gathering". Article II says nothing of the sort, merely stating the President is the "Commander in Chief" of the Army and Navy, and nothing further as to what that entails. It has been interpreted to encompass a number of areas over the past two centuries, so you're own contention (untested as it is) is no less legitimate; Truman himself invoked it in the seizures case that ultimately led to the "Youngstown" decision.
Congress by contrast, per Article I Section 8 Line 14, is authorized
"To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;"
Thus, Congress is empowered to put whatever legal limitations it sees fit or as necessary upon the conduct of the US military.
Simple enough, eh? Exactly why are you having such difficulty understanding it?
I don't expect an actual answer to that, btw. I doubt there's one to be had.
I keep rereading Article II and I still don't know hpow this wiretapping power got extracted from it.
ReplyDeleteAricle I however states that Congress has the power "To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;"
It also (quite quaintly) states that no appropriation of Money to raise an Army shall be for a period of more than two years. The founders apparently didn't envision that we would be in a perpetual state of war and would hence require a perpetual standing army!
ahh.. the simultaneous typing of Atricle I provisions by two different posters.
ReplyDeletePerhaps that means it's relevant!
e_five said...
ReplyDeleteJefferson owned slaves, so it's perfectly understandable if Bush does.
Ha ha, liberals!
And at least one of Jefferson's slaves probably slept on the floor by Tom's bed while he and the missus did the nasty. The founder's notions of privacy would seem alien to us now, as theirs would be to us. That being said, I think Jefferson, were he alive today, would have a great deal to say to Bart about his arguments with respect to article II. To put in bluntly, Bart would be sleeping on the floor by Tom's bed after awhile.
HWSNBN continues his prevarication:
ReplyDeleteAh, but you are citing the wrong statute.
Justice is arguing that the AUMF waived FISA....
And Justice is FOS. As Glenn has pointed out so well. Amongst other things, for the absolutely clear reason that the Patriot Act amended the laws, but did nothing to reduce the "probable cause" standard or carve out an exception for taps absent FISA court authorisation.
Sure, it's a "legal argument" the Justice Dept. cobbled together. But it's a real stinky one that shouldn't be acceptable coming from even a 1L, and harldy one to convince a court (something the maladministration has avoided having to do like the plague). It's all PR by the maladministration.
Cheers,
phd9...It also (quite quaintly) states that no appropriation of Money to raise an Army shall be for a period of more than two years. The founders apparently didn't envision that we would be in a perpetual state of war and would hence require a perpetual standing army!
ReplyDelete1:32 PM
That's where I was going, so make that 3. The state of war is a necessary condition for Bart's (and Bush's) article II argument.
Espionage goes on during times of war or peace. It's an argument and that's all it is. Tell it to the judge.
Yankee,
ReplyDeleteBart is not having difficulty understanding, he knows full well that his arguments are crap. There are one of two things going one here:
1. He knows its illigal, and is tring to defend it but does not care if spying is done cause he has nothing to hide. Thats ok by him if it catches "evil doers".
2. He knowss its illigal and does not care because he is discusted with libs and loves bush's policies and loves pre-emptive killing.
It doesnt matter in the end what drives him. Most people know this administration is full of retoric and no substance. They are imploding as more and more people realize the there was nothing there but retoric from the begining. Bottom line he gets it fully and just likes to come here and play. Best thing to do is what people have been doing which is destroy his lame ass arguments.
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN continues his prevarication
(...)
It's all PR by the maladministration.
Cheers,
You were correct the first time. Prevarication, obfuscation... tap dancing.
You are giving public relations a worse rap than they deserve, most of the time.
HWSNBN doesn't bother reading:
ReplyDeleteDid any of you pick up on the fact that AG Jackson was defending the Roosevelt intelligence gathering against Congress before Justice Jackson wrote the concurrence to the Youngstown case?
Ummm, yes. The troll might try paying attention to what someone other than himself is saying. But then, if he did that, he wouldn't be a troll, would he?
Cheers,
....But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
ReplyDeleteHe has refuted his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.....
declaration of independence
And don't forget that George Washington conducted warrantless domestic spying during the Revolutionary War! Oh, wait! Did we have a Constitution then?...
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN quotes out of context:
ReplyDeleteYou are again being misleading by referring to FISA as the binding law in this case. The supreme law of the land is the Constitution.
Here's "the rest of the story", as Paul Harvey would say:
"This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land..."
The "In re: Sealed Case" that the troll HWSNBN is so fond of citing dicta from, actually ruled on the issue of the constitutionality oof FISA (you know, like, in the actual holding?). Surprise, surprise: They said it was not unconstitutional.
Cheers,
The troll HWSNBB quotes from the constitution of the Soviet Union:
ReplyDeleteThe Constitution gives the President and not Congress the power to direct and conduct intelligence gathering.
It's gotta be there, cuz I can't find anything like this in the U.S. Constitution.....
Cheers,
I often hear the talking point being made, "If the Democrats are so worried, why haven't they proposed new laws?"
ReplyDeleteMake a new law when he ignores the existing one? Why bother? All we want is that he obey the laws on the books NOW.
(As if the Republican majority would let such a new law proposal get anywhere, anyway).
Ed
The celebrity pundit is dead. Long live the politically oriented blogger.
ReplyDeleteThe larger point is that Beltway courtiers like Cohen, Time’s Joe Klein and others currently succumbing to the vapors over critical e-mails from fans thrilled by Colbert’s gutsy performance are on their way out. The brief reign of the celebrity pundit began with cable TV and appears to be ending with the Internet. Washington socialites are quickly being replaced in public esteem by politically oriented bloggers like Josh Marshall, Kevin Drum, the inimitable Digby, Glenn Greenwald, Billmon, Atrios and many others.
Get to writing that book, Bart. Rover will be indicted.
'Hypatia" said...
ReplyDeleteBart and others need to read Glenn's post from last December quoting Jackson in Youngstown on the issue of "inherent authority." Jackson repudiates it, especially when such claims flout the legislated will of Congress.
That is incorrect.
In his Youngstown concurrence, Jackson offers a balancing test for situations where Congress and the President share Constitutional authority over a subject matter area.
Youngstown dealt with property seizure, which normally is a matter for Congress, but which Truman attempted to commandeer as CiC.
However, neither Article I nor any case law interpreting Article I gives Congress any authority to either direct and conduct intelligence gathering or to limit or eliminate the President's long recognized Article II power to perform intelligence gathering. Because Congress and the President do not share power over intelligence gathering, the Jackson balancing test simply does not come into play.
You might notice that neither the FISA court of review nor later the FISA judges before the Senate ever used this Youngstown argument. It simply does not apply.
I have to admit, I have been waiting a few days to see Bart tromp the "Article II" arguments back on out here in order to throw this out ...
ReplyDeleteAs I understand this whole situation, the President has decided, based on an interpretation of recent history (Reagan administration to present) that Sigining Statements are a way to establish his own "legislative intent" in the eventual judicial review of whatever statute is present.
The president has made signing statements to indicate where he felt that statutes were either interfering or undermining his constitutional authority as commander in chief of the armed forces (the McCain torture amendment siging statement comes to mind).
If this is so, where is the signing statement on the original Patriot Act, which expanded the scope and reach of FISA, an apparently very important and unconstitutional imposition on executive power and privelege? Why does the signing statement on the Patriot Act renewal not mention this horrible incursion on and limitation of the executive branch responsibilities and duties? Specifically the signing statement on the renewal reserves the right to withold reporting from Congress as the unitary executive sees fit - but makes no mention of FISA or the other provisions that are such an aggregious imposition on his ability to perform his duties and uphold the Constitution.
This is an obviously contentious issue, as evidenced by the fact that the President lied about it to the American public for years. He knew that there would be backlash, and didn't, at the precise moment that he could have, and has, traditionally, offered some historical precedent for his interpretation of the law, say anything.
Finaally about today's post, many excellent points made today, just wanted to stress my personal favorite: when Roosevelt spied, there was no federal statute which explicitly addressed and restricted the ability of the executive office to perform surveillance. There is one now. That is a pretty significant difference. Roosevelt couldn't have violated the FISA statutes because they weren't written until 33 years after his death.
I've been reading bart's citing of Article II as being the trump card rendering all other arguments about the wire-tapping issue for months now. Like many others, I had a hard time finding the Constitutional language that supported his position. However, after a lot of searching, I think I've got the answer.
ReplyDeleteEvidently, the original Constitution, written as we all know in ancient Aramaic, hasn't been correctly rendered into modern English in most translations. I've come across the actual wording and offer it here as a service to others who have been likewise perplexed:
Section 2.
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States and to abrogate any law or Constitutional Amendment as he sees fit provided he really really believes it's required, and none of these actions shall ever be considered a Case for Impeachment.
I think this settles it once and for all and that we all owe bart a huge apology...he's a gentleman, scholar and a true patriot.
>Article II power to perform intelligence gathering<
ReplyDeleteBart, I would love some sort of link I can follow so I can see what precedent your actually referring to. You keep using that phrase continuously but when I google it, all I get is list of blogs that are card carrying Bush water carriers.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteBart - Nobody here buys the whole "Article II" argument you've been pushing.
Well, because I have offered you the unconflicted legal precedent, you no long have ignorance as an excuse. Given the following points which you repeat ad nauseum and which have no legal merit, I guess you are just being an ass.
The fact the Administration itself hasn't brought that argument to the Supreme Court - which it could and should *if* they were serious about respecting the Constitution, its provisions, and the rule of law generally - is a strong indicator of how little credence it has.
As I educated you in the past, the Constitution bars the President or Congress from seeking advisory opinions. A person who has been allegedly injured by the NSA Program has to bring a case.
You claim Article II empowers the President to order this activity, under the rubric of "intelligence gathering". Article II says nothing of the sort, merely stating the President is the "Commander in Chief" of the Army and Navy, and nothing further as to what that entails. It has been interpreted to encompass a number of areas over the past two centuries, so you're own contention (untested as it is) is no less legitimate; Truman himself invoked it in the seizures case that ultimately led to the "Youngstown" decision.
All of the cases addressing this question have held that the President has this power as CiC. This issue is settled and has never been disputed.
Congress by contrast, per Article I Section 8 Line 14, is authorized
"To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;"
This provision is limited to the discipline of individual soldiers through the UCMJ and has never been held to apply to the command decision of against whom to direct intelligence gathering.
I don't expect an actual answer to that, btw. I doubt there's one to be had.
That is a lie. Stop playing the fool. You have posted these inane and legally unsupported arguments well over a dozen times. I have schooled you at least a half dozen times.
rothbard:
ReplyDeleteI've come across the actual wording and offer it here as a service to others who have been likewise perplexed:
well played, sir.
well played.
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN continues his prevarication: Ah, but you are citing the wrong statute. Justice is arguing that the AUMF waived FISA....
And Justice is FOS. As Glenn has pointed out so well. Amongst other things, for the absolutely clear reason that the Patriot Act amended the laws, but did nothing to reduce the "probable cause" standard or carve out an exception for taps absent FISA court authorisation.
With all due respect to Glenn, the argument makes no sense.
The government uses FISA warrants to gather criminal evidence, not to gather intelligence for which it needs no warrant.
Justice opposed lowering the standard for FISA warrants from probable cause to reasonable suspicion because the 4th Amendment requires probable cause to admit evidence in criminal trials.
This opposition had nothing to do with intelligence gathering because it was Justices opinion from the outset based on the case law that Article II trumped FISA and no warrants at all were required to perform intelligence gathering.
Glenn for Karl Rove's job in the upcoming 2008 Progressive Presidency!!
ReplyDeleteWhile FDR is irrelevant currently, I'm wondering if this executive order from Carter in 1979 (after FISA), and Clinton's email tappping program "Carnivore" are pertinent.
ReplyDeleteIn addition I'm wonder in if the chilling effect of the Reno Justice Dept, FISA, and the Gorelick memo, regarding the Moussauoi laptop and flying lesson info has been discussed here.
I'm also guessing that one of the reasons so few warrants are refused by the FISA court is that there may be some five or six layers of bureaucracy any warrant has go through. Anything surviving that gauntlet has been well ordered. But woe to those who do not follow the letter of the law.
I'm a great fan of the fourth amendment, but demanding an abstract perfection, when the country is trying to reconcile protections and new technology is asking for trouble, a la 9/11.
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN quotes out of context: You are again being misleading by referring to FISA as the binding law in this case. The supreme law of the land is the Constitution.
Here's "the rest of the story", as Paul Harvey would say:
"This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land..."
The "In re: Sealed Case" that the troll HWSNBN is so fond of citing dicta from, actually ruled on the issue of the constitutionality oof FISA (you know, like, in the actual holding?). Surprise, surprise: They said it was not unconstitutional.
Numnuts, Justice is not arguing that FISA is completely unconstitutional. It is perfectly constitutional for the purpose of issuing secret warrants for the gathering of criminal evidence in national security cases. Justice uses FISA continuously for this purpose.
Rather, FISA is unconstitutional to the extent that Congress is attempting to limit or eliminate the President's long recognized Article II power to gather intelligence.
nick said...
ReplyDeleteIf this is so, where is the signing statement on the original Patriot Act, which expanded the scope and reach of FISA, an apparently very important and unconstitutional imposition on executive power and privelege? Why does the signing statement on the Patriot Act renewal not mention this horrible incursion on and limitation of the executive branch responsibilities and duties?
At least this is a new argument. However, it is also easily disposed of.
Nothing in the Patriot Act addresses the NSA Program, thus there is nothing to which the President would address in the signing statement on that subject.
From Bart at 2:20PM:
ReplyDelete"Given the following points which you repeat ad nauseum and which have no legal merit, I guess you are just being an ass."
Name-calling? Well, whatever makes you feel better.
"As I educated you in the past, the Constitution bars the President or Congress from seeking advisory opinions."
Given the sitting President himself has admitted to this law-breaking, I'd say the matter has progressed beyond simply 'advisory'. And your arguments that the Constitution 'prohibts' the Executive and Legislative Branch from seeking such opinions haven't been all that convincing to start with.
""To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;"
"This provision is limited to the discipline of individual soldiers through the UCMJ and has never been held to apply to the command decision of against whom to direct intelligence gathering."
Sorry, doesn't fly. Not a single case you've mentioned indicates the Congress can't exercise wider power over the conduct of the military, never mind closes the door on the issue. The fact they haven't done so to date, with very good reason, is equally no indicator the Legislature is barred from this role.
(re: my expectation of no reply)
"That is a lie. Stop playing the fool. You have posted these inane and legally unsupported arguments well over a dozen times. I have schooled you at least a half dozen times."
Are they inane because they rest on a serious, factual reading of the Constitution itself, or because you haven't been able to come up with a decently-supported argument that disproves any of them?
PhD9 said...
ReplyDelete>Article II power to perform intelligence gathering<
Bart, I would love some sort of link I can follow so I can see what precedent your actually referring to. You keep using that phrase continuously but when I google it, all I get is list of blogs that are card carrying Bush water carriers.
Shooting the messenger again, huh?
Here is the case law:
Federal courts have unanimously held that the Constitution also grants the President, as commander in chief and sole representative of the United States in foreign affairs ,the implied power of directing and conducting warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States. (hereinafter “warrantless foreign intelligence gathering”). See, e.g., United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1144 (1982); United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 890 (1977); United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3d Cir. 1974) (en banc), cert. denied, 419 U.S. 881 (1974); United States v. Brown, 484 F.2d 418 (5th Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 916 (1974). See also In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717, 742 (Foreign Intel. Surv. Ct. of Rev. 2002).
Now you are free to show me any case law at all that holds Article I either gives Congress the concurrent power to direct or conduct intelligence gathering or to limit or eliminate the President's Article II power to do so.
The Constitution gives the President and not Congress the power to direct and conduct intelligence gathering. Therefore, any Con Law I student knows that Article II trumps FISA in the area of intelligence gathering.
ReplyDeleteThat's right. The President could beat your grandmother to death with a baseball bat, call it intelligence gathering, and there is nothing anyone can do about it, because the Constitution is the law of the land, and the Constitution grants the President the authority to gather intelligence.
PhD9 writes:
ReplyDeleteBart, I would love some sort of link I can follow so I can see what precedent your actually referring to. You keep using that phrase continuously but when I google it, all I get is list of blogs that are card carrying Bush water carriers.
Bart already knows what I am about to say, as it has been pointed out to him ad infinitum. He does not seek enlightenment, he seeks to propagandize, hence I do not recount this for his benefit.
There is, in fact, a good faith basis for a president to believe that vis-Ã -vis the 4th Am he does not need to seek a warrant when conducting a search in the national security context. There are some lower federal court holdings -- pre-FISA -- reaching that holding. No one, including Glenn, has quarreled with this fact, although it remains an open question whether the SCOTUS would affirm these lower court holdings, wrt the 4th Am. (I think it quite possible they would not.)
But FISA is a separate, statutory matter, and no court has ever held that Congress lacks national security authority, including in the electronic surveillance area; they have held the opposite, noting often that Congress shares national security authority with the President. For that reason, and independent of whether the 4th Am places a warrant requirement on the Executive in the national security context, FISA unambiguously does.
For the foregoing reasons, President Clinton sought FISA warrants for electronic surveillance, but not for physical searches undertaken in the national security context. Clinton relied, in good faith, on lower court holdings that he had this authority. For a time he did that. However, when FISA was amended, in the mid-90s, to require warrants for physical searches undertaken in the national security context, Clinton proceeded to comply with the law.
All of these pro-Bush blogs yammering on and on about all the courts that give Bush Article II authority are not wrong in terms of the 4th Am; they are simply wrong that this authority, even if it were ratified by the SCOTUS – an open question -- allows him to violate a law of Congress. SCOTUS would never ratify that, because it is squarely foreclosed by Youngstown.
hypatia,
ReplyDeleteyou just dont get it
here is what bart said:
article II article II article II article II article II article II
any con law I student knows that article II gives the president the power to ignore "laws" and "congress"
i mean, its practically written right there in article II
sheesh
HWSNBN dissembles once again:
ReplyDeleteHowever, neither Article I nor any case law interpreting Article I gives Congress any authority to either direct and conduct intelligence gathering or to limit or eliminate the President's long recognized Article II power to perform intelligence gathering.
Ummmm, the troll here keeps citing the preznit's authority as CinC as being some kind of authorisation to him to do wiretapping, but if that is the case, then the explicitly laid out authority of Congress to regulate the military comes into play. The troll HWSNBN ignores this logical inconsistency, of course.....
Cheers,
Fitzgerald did a good job for the fed unions!
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN dissembles yet further:
ReplyDeleteBecause Congress and the President do not share power over intelligence gathering, the Jackson balancing test simply does not come into play.
Look, the Constitution didn't apportion steel mill seizures between the preznit and Congress either.
But it did say that Congress has authority to regulate the military (of which the NSA is one component).
Cheers,
HWSNBN dissembles yet anon:
ReplyDeleteAs I educated you in the past, the Constitution bars the President or Congress from seeking advisory opinions.
I dealt with "advisory opinions" in a post a while back. In fact, rulings as to constitutionality have been challenged many a time even "before the act", by those who don't want to subject themselves to possible prosecution for acts which they are of the opinion can't be constitutionally proscribed. The real issue is not whether something an "advisory opinion", but whether there's an actual "case or controversy" and whether the person challenging the law has standing to challenge it. To have such standing, they don't need to break the law first (although Dubya's actions have removed even this small hurdle already).
The troll HWSNBN ignores this fact, of course, just like he ignores anythign else that goes contrary to his hallucinatory opinions.
Cheers,
Nobody Special writes:In those two cases, as has been noted before, In re Sealed has proven the constitutionality of FISA, and Truong is inapplicable because Truong was not an American citizen.
ReplyDeleteWell, those are not the reasons why Bart's "relying" on those cases is stoopid. The language he likes from In re Sealed Case is one sentence of dicta; it is not the holding of the case. As for Truong, the reason it is inapplicable is that the facts giving rise to it were pre-FISA,and it parsed the 4th Am, even if the deicision came down post-FISA.
HWSNBN hallucinates:
ReplyDeleteCongress by contrast, per Article I Section 8 Line 14, is authorized
"To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;"
This provision is limited to the discipline of individual soldiers through the UCMJ....
That's weird. The UCMJ is of rather recent vintage WRT the history of this nation. Aside from his cribbed "interpretation" of the UCMJ as being the only power of Congress here, which finds no textual support in the Constitution at all, is he claiming that all such regulations prior to the UCMJ were unconstitutional? If so, out with the case law cites to this previously unknown legal fact.....
Cheers,
HWSNBN lies:
ReplyDeleteThe government uses FISA warrants to gather criminal evidence, ....
Nonsense. Sheer nonsense. Outright lies.
Cheers,
In fairness, the look-mom-mikey-did-it-too defense is not a republican trait per se, but rather an AMERICAN trait.
ReplyDeleteOne only has to engage a discussion on racism in the south for about 30 seconds before some genius chimes in with "it's just as bad in the north".
There are approximately a jillion other such examples of such a defense, or rather, a "defense".
I call it a "smokescreen" defense, or a "lose 'em in cloud (of wrongdoing), or a "hey! look over there" defense. It is of course completely specious.
HWSNBN starts dipping into tautologies:
ReplyDeleteThe government uses FISA warrants to gather criminal evidence, not to gather intelligence for which it needs no warrant.
Ummm, the second part of that is tautological, seeing as FISA requires warrants for certain types of surveillance. In fact, ofr the types of surveillance that Dubya has admitted doing without warrants (and then tried to claim that are in his power because either FISA has been secretly amended by implication, or because Dubya is King of Amurkah and the laws of the United States don't apply to him).
Cheers,
Bart appears to think that honesty is a form of mental retardation. If so, he has a lot of company in his arrogance.
ReplyDeleteThe noise he and his colleagues have been making in recent years worries me, but not overmuch. We've seen his like before, and will again. In the meantime, his particular tenure atop the horse is coming to an end. History can be an uncooperative nag, especially when you attempt to ride it backwards.
Thanks everyone, I learned a lot today. now I even know what "plenary" means
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteEyes Wide Open said...
All government is inherently evil.
We get it.
God, you're dishonest. I never said all government is inherently evil.
I have stated that I believe that a society without a government would be very much like Hobbes' description of life in a state of nature: short, brutish and nasty.
Governments must exist to prevent chaos from ensuing when individuals live together in a society as most do.
The creation of the United States of America is the most shining example in history of what can happen when moral, passionate, committed and rational people take the time to exhaustively consider every aspect of what a Government which serves its citizens can best be.
To the extent that certain aspects of Government are and have been evil, that is because of the people who subvert the values on which this great nation was founded.
Paul Rosenberg can point out desirable aspects of Scandanavian countries and there are many countries around the world which have wonderful cultures and unique features which are admirable.
But he chooses to live here.
There is only one country in this world where everyone from all over the globe has so consistently tried to get in to rather than out of: The United States of America.
It's always been the single best country in the history of the world and that is because of its form of government.
I'd like to keep it that way and I believe the title of Glenn's book demonstrates he would too.
God, you are dishonest.
A Government by, for and of the people is the ideal. The more such a Government betrays that central concept, the more criticism is not only warranted but becomes mandatory.
"Hypatia" said...
ReplyDeletePhD9 writes: Bart, I would love some sort of link I can follow so I can see what precedent your actually referring to. You keep using that phrase continuously but when I google it, all I get is list of blogs that are card carrying Bush water carriers.
I provided the case law above.
There is, in fact, a good faith basis for a president to believe that vis-Ã -vis the 4th Am he does not need to seek a warrant when conducting a search in the national security context. There are some lower federal court holdings -- pre-FISA -- reaching that holding. No one, including Glenn, has quarreled with this fact, although it remains an open question whether the SCOTUS would affirm these lower court holdings, wrt the 4th Am. (I think it quite possible they would not.)
Good faith basis? You are getting off the Greenwald talking points.
I would add more importantly that this case law universally holds that the source of the President's authority to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering is Article II.
But FISA is a separate, statutory matter, and no court has ever held that Congress lacks national security authority, including in the electronic surveillance area; they have held the opposite, noting often that Congress shares national security authority with the President.
Given that no provision of Article I grants CiC power to Congress in general or grants Congress specific power to direct or cinduct intelligence gathering, your only legal hope is that some Court created such a power out of whole cloth. None has.
While it is true that Congress shares certain express powers over the military described in Article I, none of these provisions has been held to give Congress power to direct or conduct intelligence gathering.
Two things (an comment and a question):
ReplyDeleteFirst, folks, you have to understand, a large portion of Republicans feel that any attack against Bush is based upon hatred of Bush as a person, not based upon principle.
So, to them, this *is* a major accomplishment. They "proved" that no one cared about it until it was something that could be used to attack Bush.
This is an important part of this battle to re-claim our country. Accept that these people will not understand, and will not be convinced otherwise. They are sure that they are in a fight to protect their hero against unjust attacks. Unless/until Bush betrays them in an obvious-to-them manner, accept that they will (for good reasons) refuse to believe that this is a serious issue.
Second:
Glenn, did I understand correctly what you said? That Roosevelt's belief was that the law did not forbid the surveillance, but instead only forbade both surveillance *and* dissemination? i.e., Roosevelt thought, as long as he kept the information secret, he was in compliance?
If so, you're right... this doesn't defend Bush at all. Bush isn't claiming even a weasely attempt to make use of an ambiguity.
NobodySpecial said...
ReplyDeletePS, Bart, your case law is largely irrelevant, seeing as how it predates FISA in all but two cases.
In those two cases, as has been noted before, In re Sealed has proven the constitutionality of FISA, and Truong is inapplicable because Truong was not an American citizen.
All the case law establishes that the source of the President's power to direct and perform warrantless intelligence gathering is Article II.
Unless you can find me any case law establishing that some provision of Article II grants Congress the concurrent power to direct and perform warrantless intelligence gathering, then Article II trumps FISA in this area.
Bart, you are wrong. The necessary and proper clause of Article 1 gives congress the authority to regulate your king's Article 2 powers and the majority decision in Youngstown, not appellate dicta, says as much.
ReplyDeleteArne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN dissembles yet further: Because Congress and the President do not share power over intelligence gathering, the Jackson balancing test simply does not come into play.
Look, the Constitution didn't apportion steel mill seizures between the preznit and Congress either. But it did say that Congress has authority to regulate the military (of which the NSA is one component).
Really? Feel free to quote the opinion to back this up or admit that you are lying.
So, more to the point - just how do we get Congress to execute their function of "parliamentary debate" that is, actual oversight of these continuing, accumulating, illegal activities by the administration? What has to happen to clean up this mess, or do we just continue the slide into fascism?
ReplyDeleteArne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN dissembles yet anon:
As I educated you in the past, the Constitution bars the President or Congress from seeking advisory opinions.
I dealt with "advisory opinions" in a post a while back. In fact, rulings as to constitutionality have been challenged many a time even "before the act", by those who don't want to subject themselves to possible prosecution for acts which they are of the opinion can't be constitutionally proscribed.
This is correct, so far as it goes. However, the President and Congress may not seek such an injunction because there is no evidence this intelligence gathering is directed at them.
Once again, you need an alleged target of this intelligence gathering to bring this case.
I wonder if I can count all this free legal advice towards my pro bono goals with the bar?
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteCongress by contrast, per Article I Section 8 Line 14, is authorized
"To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;"
Bart: This provision is limited to the discipline of individual soldiers through the UCMJ....
That's weird. The UCMJ is of rather recent vintage WRT the history of this nation. Aside from his cribbed "interpretation" of the UCMJ as being the only power of Congress here, which finds no textual support in the Constitution at all, is he claiming that all such regulations prior to the UCMJ were unconstitutional? If so, out with the case law cites to this previously unknown legal fact...
This provision of Article I is limited to discipline of individual military members which Congress has expressed through the passage of the UCMJ.
You obviously could not meet my challenge to find any case law interpreting this Article I provision to apply to the direction and conduct of intelligence gathering.
Case closed.
If you bush supporters are so convinced that he is acting within the law, as many have stated here before, why do you think they are so hesitant to take the matter to the court? We all know the answer to that one. Like you wingnuts say about wiretapping American citizens, If you have nothing to hide who cares. The complete lack of oversite in the republican congress is very telling.
ReplyDeleteNotice how the appologists avoid talking about this:
http://www.wired.com/
"NEW YORK -- Former National Security Agency director Bobby Ray Inman lashed out at the Bush administration Monday night over its continued use of warrantless domestic wiretaps, making him one of the highest-ranking former intelligence officials to criticize the program in public, analysts say.
"This activity is not authorized," Inman said, as part of a panel discussion on eavesdropping that was sponsored by The New York Public Library. The Bush administration "need(s) to get away from the idea that they can continue doing it."
HWSNBN sez:
ReplyDeleteRather, FISA is unconstitutional to the extent that Congress is attempting to limit or eliminate the President's long recognized Article II power to gather intelligence.
So sez the troll. Trouble is that no court has ever held such. And despite HWSNBN's bloviations about how he's shown this repeatedly, he nas never actually quoted from any court case to show such a holding.
Cheers,
Tlazolteotl: What has to happen to clean up this mess, or do we just continue the slide into fascism?
ReplyDeleteThis question is something I asked a while ago, and I believe that jao was kind enough to answer with some background on the legal and constitutional issues involved.
The first avenue of redress would seem to be the courts. Yet, as many are finding, access to the courts involves asking the issue in a broad enough way to get at the purported illegality of the president's NSA program. To so so, you need to find a case that is specifically relevant as a legal issue in and of itself as well as general enough to address the constitutional issues at question.
I believe the case against ITT by the Electronic Front for Freedom (name?) based on information from a whistleblower from inside ATT presents some chance for actually dealing with the NSA program's legality.
Of course, there's always the political avaenue. But as many have shown in previous comments, it seems that neither party in congress has the motivation to undertake an investigation of presidential abuses of power. If recent remarks by the Democratic party leadership indicate anything, they show that even the opposition party has ruled out this option, even should they win one or both houses of Congress.
EFF is the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
ReplyDeleteThey, by the way do very important work.
Here's their summary of the case
ReplyDelete"Cut'n'Paste" troll HWSNBN cribs the nonsense of Dubya apologists to say:
ReplyDeleteFederal courts have unanimously held that the Constitution also grants the President, as commander in chief and sole representative of the United States in foreign affairs ,the implied power of directing and conducting warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States. (hereinafter “warrantless foreign intelligence gathering”). See, e.g., United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1144 (1982); United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 890 (1977); United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3d Cir. 1974) (en banc), cert. denied, 419 U.S. 881 (1974); United States v. Brown, 484 F.2d 418 (5th Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 916 (1974). See also In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717, 742 (Foreign Intel. Surv. Ct. of Rev. 2002).
Lies. In re: Sealed Case held no such thing. The dicta there didn't even say quite that, but that wasn't the holding at all. As for Truong, the holding there was that a warrant was required.
While I don't have WL/Lexis access, and can't look the others up, I suspect the maladministration is being just as disingenuous there.
You know, 1ls are expected to be able to distinguish between holdings and dicta. It's a pretty sad state of affairs when the U.S. gummint lawyers, supposedly some of the tops in the field, make such an elemental mistake.
Cheers,
HWSNBN sez disingenuously:
ReplyDelete[Arne]: But it did say that Congress has authority to regulate the military (of which the NSA is one component).
Really? Feel free to quote the opinion to back this up or admit that you are lying.
How about the Constitution:
"Article I, Section 8.:
The Congress shall have power ...
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;..."
Cheers,
JaO said...
ReplyDeletebart: As I educated you in the past, the Constitution bars the President or Congress from seeking advisory opinions. A person who has been allegedly injured by the NSA Program has to bring a case.
As you have been "educated" about multiple times in this blog as well as elsewhere, no advisory opinion is involved. The DOJ has long had the standing and opportunity to inititiate a test case in the FISA courts, which ruling could be reviewable by the Supreme Court.
The argument to which you linked claimed that Justice can go to the FISA court seeking to get a warrant and then turn around an challenge the constitutionality of the FISA statute to give that warrant. However, Justice has no standing to challenge its own warrant application.
The FISA judge can look at this in one of two ways:
1) As a pretense to gain an unconstitutional advisory opinion.
or
2) Moot because justice has conceded the constitutionality of the warrant process when it came in to get the warrant in the first instance.
For the last time, you need a party who has been genuinely harmed to get a case before the court.
bart: Here is the case law:
[Cites to Truong, etc.]
None of which cases are relevant today, because all these cases were pre-FISA. What was lawful before FISA was enacted then became unlawful. Before FISA was enacted in 1978, Congress deferred to the president's "inherent" authority in the area of foreign-intelligence surveillance; FISA repealed that deferral and replaced it with statutory requirements that have never even been challenged in court.
Congress cannot defer to something over which Article I does not give them any power to control.
As you well know, no court at any level has ever ruled that the president is not bound by the terms of FISA. In fact, Bush is the first president to violate FISA since its enactment.
This is true so far as it goes.
However, the FISA Court of appeal and the FISA judges before Congress pretty much informed you that they consider this a slam dunk for the President.
the cynic librarian said...
ReplyDeletemI believe the case against ITT by the Electronic Front for Freedom (name?) based on information from a whistleblower from inside ATT presents some chance for actually dealing with the NSA program's legality.
Finally, we have a case with alleged victims. However, these people have standing problems because they have no evidence that any particular user of ATT has been surveilled and the government will assert the secrets privilege to prevent this group from performing a fishing expedition looking for parties who have been surveilled.
The only case which I have read about with an outside chance is one where the defense attorney was allegedly given a classified document indicating that he or his client were the subject of this surveillance. This will give the court something to work with if the defense attorney is not lying about the contents of the document and if the defense can prove that any evidence gained through this surveillance was used against the defendant. The mere fact of surveillance isn't enough.
Of course, there's always the political avaenue. But as many have shown in previous comments, it seems that neither party in congress has the motivation to undertake an investigation of presidential abuses of power.
LMAO! Tell that to Pelousi.
What the Dems haven't gone brain dead enough to do is opposed a program designed to listen in on al Qaeda telephone calls into the US, which has over 70% support.
HWSNBN is really confused:
ReplyDeleteThis is correct, so far as it goes. However, the President and Congress may not seek such an injunction because there is no evidence this intelligence gathering is directed at them.
Huh? All they have to do is say: "Hey, look, we'd really like to wiretap some 'U.S. persons' without a warrant, but we're feeling a bit intimidated because there's this pesky FISA law that says that if we do, we're commiting a felony. Can you decide if what we plan to do is legal?" That's enough for standing, and for a constitutional challenge to the FISA law. That is, it would be enough if the Dubya maladministration actually wanted to establish their "wiretapping right" as a matter of law, rather than simply ignoring the law. Helps to have a Justice Department under your thumb; they have the authority to prosecute FISA violations, but when the person runnign teh show at Justice is the same person that says that statutes can be ignored when it's Dubya violating them, seems the only recourse left for the preznitdential law-breaking is impeachment. As Dubya says, "Bring it on!"
Cheers,
HWSNBN sez:
ReplyDeleteI wonder if I can count all this free legal advice towards my pro bono goals with the bar?
He misspelled "disciplinary hearing".
Citing dicta as "good law". *sheesh*
Cheers,
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDelete"Cut'n'Paste" troll HWSNBN cribs the nonsense of Dubya apologists to say:
Federal courts have unanimously held that the Constitution also grants the President, as commander in chief and sole representative of the United States in foreign affairs ,the implied power of directing and conducting warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents in the United States. (hereinafter “warrantless foreign intelligence gathering”). See, e.g., United States v. Truong Dinh Hung, 629 F.2d 908 (4th Cir. 1980), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1144 (1982); United States v. Buck, 548 F.2d 871 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 890 (1977); United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3d Cir. 1974) (en banc), cert. denied, 419 U.S. 881 (1974); United States v. Brown, 484 F.2d 418 (5th Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 916 (1974). See also In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717, 742 (Foreign Intel. Surv. Ct. of Rev. 2002).
Do you ever get tired of having your arse handed to you?
This is my post and collection of cases based on my research. Justice did not get all these cases.
Lies. In re: Sealed Case held no such thing. The dicta there didn't even say quite that, but that wasn't the holding at all.
Thus the "See Also" comment before the cite. That means that In re: Sealed cases addressed the issue, but was not a direct ruling on the issue.
As for Truong, the holding there was that a warrant was required.
No. The Truong case recognized that the President has inherent Article II authority to conduct intelligence gathering against the defendant and any evidence so gathered could be admitted against the defendant at trial. However, the court also held that when Justice became involved that the purpose of the surveillance changed from intelligence gathering to the gathering of criminal evidence and that required a warrant. This is why Justice seeks FISA warrants once the NSA Program identifies a target to Justice.
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN is really confused: This is correct, so far as it goes. However, the President and Congress may not seek such an injunction because there is no evidence this intelligence gathering is directed at them.
Huh? All they have to do is say: "Hey, look, we'd really like to wiretap some 'U.S. persons' without a warrant, but we're feeling a bit intimidated because there's this pesky FISA law that says that if we do, we're commiting a felony. Can you decide if what we plan to do is legal?" That's enough for standing, and for a constitutional challenge to the FISA law.
Glenn, can you do me a favor an educate this student concerning advisory opinions? He already flunked my Con Law I class.
HWSNBN lied again:
ReplyDeleteNo. The Truong case recognized that the President has inherent Article II authority to conduct intelligence gathering against the defendant and any evidence so gathered could be admitted against the defendant at trial.
The Truong court held that a warrant was needed, and excluded the wiretap evidence. Anything else the troll hallucinates is supposedly there is mere dicta.
And as I suspected, he didn't provide any of the other holdings.
As for his "see also" for In re: Sealed Case .... He's citing the case, but what he says the case said (that it "held" that the preznit has Article II powers to wiretap) is a lie.
But if he was honest, and admitted that In re: Sealed Case made no such holding, he'd stop citing it for that proposition.
HWSNBN is a liar. A determined one. One wonders why.
Cheers,
HWSNBN is delusional:
ReplyDeleteGlenn, can you do me a favor an educate this student concerning advisory opinions? He already flunked my Con Law I class.
All one needs to do to make sure that the troll HWSNBN never gets near a 1L (other than a restraining order) is to provide the dean of whatever law school has the misfortune to peruse his application with a list of links to his egregious misstatements of elementary law here.
I have no worry whatsoever about the troll passing judgement on my legal acumen; it's he who is in desperate need of a refresher. In fact, were I to actually sign on to his misstatements of fact and outrageous legal "opinions", I'd think that my law perfessers had commited malpractise.....
As for Glenn "educating" me, I'd say that at this point, HWSNBN is getting floridly psychotic. All is well with the world; I've driven him completely around the bend.
Cheers,
bart said...
ReplyDeleteCase closed.
3:59 PM
Bart's had to reopen that case a few times since 4PM. I bet those hinges are starting to squeak and squeal.
Bart practices in Colorado. How hard can it be to pass the bar there? It's not CA. He would probably have to take that Bar exam a few times.
ReplyDeleteI will grant Bart one point: the Supreme Court, all Federal-level and most State-level Courts cannot issue "Advisory Opinions" as this is barred by the Separation of Powers doctrine underlining our government presently (specifically Article III).
ReplyDeleteWhat Bart doesn't seem to get however is that this matter could be argued has passed beyond a 'civil' case, given and given the President himself has admitted this program technically lies within established Statutory framework (which has NOT been followed). As such, it could be brought as an actual criminal case to the Courts.
It might not go immediately to the SCOTUS, but certainly it would get the matter discussed properly.
Sorry, forgot to make the key point:
ReplyDeleteAn 'Advisory Opinion' is a civil procedure only.
As we're talking about potential law breaking here, that may require pursuing different avenues.
Mr. Greenwald, my sister is a law student at UChicago and is a liberal, but has informed me that FISA is unconstitutional because it limits the President's Article II powers as Commander-In-Chief. Does the President have unrestrained power to do anything he considers "in defense of the country"? Does this hold water? I feel like it's ridiculous, but I respect the source. (misposted elsewhere)
ReplyDeleteBenjamin -
ReplyDeleteOthers will doubtlessly weigh in on this shortly. My personal, somewhat nonprofessional reading of this is that:
(a) the argument FISA is "unconstitutional" is just that, an argument and not an judicially tested position, and
(b) there are, so far as I know, no cases pending or decided that have actually address the constitutionality of the FISA statute, and
(c) one should keep in mind this statute was specifically written to address Constitutional issues, so certainly the prospect it might intrude on Article II was doubtlessly considered when it was written.
yankeependragon:
ReplyDeleteI will grant Bart one point: the Supreme Court, all Federal-level and most State-level Courts cannot issue "Advisory Opinions" as this is barred by the Separation of Powers doctrine underlining our government presently (specifically Article III).
Not quite. There is no constitutional prohibition on "advisory opinions". Instead, as I have pointed out in a prior post, the 'ban' on "advisory opinions" is actually really an emergent property of the actual restrictions on judicial power, specifically that it is used to address actual "cases" or "controversies" (language to be found in the Constitution, by rules of standing (which ensure that the litigants in the adversary process have an actual stake in the matter and are indeed affected by the outcome, and are not there as sham litigants to resolve a legal principle which they may in fact have an opposite interest in from that claimed), and lastly that the court can actually do something to effect a remedy should either litigating party prevail.
One will see that "actual case or controversy" looks pretty much synonymous with "not an advisory opinion", but it's best stated in terms of the actual rules, as someone could sue to ask for an "advisory opinion" on a matter that in fact concerns directly only parties other than themselves, which would implicate a question of standing rather than indicate that there wasn't a real case (albeit involving other parties). Similarly for cases in which there is no judicial remedy; prudential rules say there's no point in deciding a case when any ruling from such can be of no actual consequence.
As I said, accuracy is necessary, particularly if one wants to understand how people can (and do) file suit before the [f]act so as to avoid jeopardy on a legal issue where the outcome is not known with certainty in advance. Laws do affect people's behaviour, and this is (at least in some instances) enough to get you through the courtroom door if you think the law itself is illegal, and you can show that but for the existence of the law, you intend to, or would, act in violation of it.
I think that it is not out of the question that someone might bring a suit claiming that their free soeech rights are being unconstitutionally infringed by fear of having their telephone calls snooped on illegally by the gummint, and, given the right factual posture, I don't think it's out of the question that you might find a court that would hear such a case, at least to the point of establishing factually whether the gummint's activities do in fact include such warrantless snooping on innocent U.S. citizens.
Cheers,
frankly, my dear:
ReplyDeleteThe inherent authority of the president to conduct warrantless searches to collect foreign intelligence information has been upheld repeatedly:
"The Truong court, as did all the other courts to have decided the issue, held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information."
[In re: Sealed Case No. 02-001 (Foreign Intel. Surv. Ct. of Rev. 2002)]
That's dicta. Better to quote a case where that was the actual issue and where the courts held, on this issue, in favour of the preznit (which wasn't true of either Truong or In re: Sealed Case; matter of fact, Truong held that the wiretap evidence should be excluded as it was done without a warrant, and In re: Sealed Cases held (in part) that FISA was constitutional, albeit WRT a different issue than conflict with preznitdential Article II power). However, you'll have a bit of a time finding such. Which is why the wingnuts keep reciting dicta from these two cases.
Cheers,
In Samuel Alito's hearings, which took place after the FISA controversy had broken out, he explicitly said he would apply Justice Jackson Youngstown framework in analyzing the constitutional issues if the controversy came before the court.
ReplyDeleteAs a judicial conservative myself, I have every confidence that if the court had to decide the question of FISA's constitutionality, both Roberts and Alito would join an overwhelming majority in rejecting Bush's position.
I hope you are right.
frankly, my dear:
ReplyDeleteFISA was specifically drafted to balance the president's authority to conduct warrantless surveillance for foreign intelligence gathering against the fourth amendment protections guaranteed to Americans by the constitution.
FISA was written to rein in the excesses of Nixon's (and previous administrations') lawless wiretapping, including spying on domestic "targets" for drug deals, etc. There was a huge backlash against the CIA and NSA for their wholesale spying after the Church and Pike committees had revealed what these agencies had been doing. FISA was the result. Granted, it did take into cognizance legitimate federal needs for foreign intelligence surveillance, but brought any domestic surveillance under the constraints of the Fourth Amendment by requiring warrants (or the equivalent thereof), and probable cause. See In re: Sealed Cases for a discussion of how well the FISA requirements mapped into Fourth Amendment requirements, as they said in their opinion, so that any such domestic taps would sufficiently comport with the Fourth Amendment even in the world of the peculiar needs of foreign intelligence surveillance activities. It's debatable whether the "warrants" of FISA are in fact equivalent to a Title III warrant (this hasn't been addressed by the U.S. Supreme Court at this time), but they said, "close enough for gummint work."
Requiring the preznit to abide by the Fourth Amendment (or a close approximation to the limits placed on Title III warrants by the Fourhth amendment) is hardly beign accomodating of the preznit's discretion. The accomodation, if any, was in the security needs of foreign surveillance, regardless of who's authorising it (which in the FISA case, is a court).
Cheers,
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteAs for Glenn "educating" me, I'd say that at this point, HWSNBN is getting floridly psychotic. All is well with the world; I've driven him completely around the bend.
Not completely. We should be so lucky. There is always another corner for Bart to turn since he is chasing his own tail.
:0 Cheers,
It's been mentioned many times here, but I think the important point to be made here is that Bush's defenders don't see this as an actual legal defense. They think that a critic of Bush is a liberal, a liberal likes FDR and believes everything he did was right (as they believe everything Bush does is right), and that FDR did the same thing as Bush (he didn't, as Glenn details, but they think he did). This attitude projection (believing your side is always right) leads them to believe that showing FDR did the same thing means liberal critics must sit down and shut up, or denounce liberalism because one of its heroes did something wrong once.
ReplyDeleteOf course, it doesn't mean that at all, and is entirely tangential to the discussion of whether or not Bush's actions are illegal. But as the very first commenter said, the defenders are just looking for cheap rhetorical points. Even if they don't realize it.
And the s*** is starting to hit the fan (particularly for Dubya b*tt-kissers like the troll HWSNBN):
ReplyDeleteFrom USA Today:
One company differs
One major telecommunications company declined to participate in the program: Qwest.
According to sources familiar with the events, Qwest's CEO at the time, Joe Nacchio, was deeply troubled by the NSA's assertion that Qwest didn't need a court order — or approval under FISA — to proceed. Adding to the tension, Qwest was unclear about who, exactly, would have access to its customers' information, and how that information might be used.
Financial implications were also a concern, the sources said. Carriers that illegally divulge calling information can be subjected to heavy fines. The NSA was asking Qwest to turn over millions of records. The fines, in the aggregate, could have been substantial.
The NSA told Qwest that other government agencies, including the FBI, CIA and DEA, also might have access to the database, the sources said. As a matter of practice, the NSA regularly shares its information — known as "product" in intelligence circles — with other intelligence groups. Even so, Qwest's lawyers were troubled by the expansiveness of the NSA request, the sources said.
The NSA, which needed Qwest's participation to completely cover the country, pushed back hard.
Trying to put pressure on Qwest, NSA representatives pointedly told Qwest that it was the lone holdout among the big telecommunications companies. It also tried appealing to Qwest's patriotic side: In one meeting, an NSA representative suggested that Qwest's refusal to contribute to the database could compromise national security, one person recalled.
In addition, the agency suggested that Qwest's foot-dragging might affect its ability to get future classified work with the government. Like other big telecommunications companies, Qwest already had classified contracts and hoped to get more.
Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal directly to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.
I'd note that the NSA used the same tactic back when they tried to get the big three cable companies to sign on to their "request" that they all turn over complete records of all international telegraphs to the NSA (all without warrant). See James Bamford's book "The Puzzle Palace" for the grimy details (and also for background on why the FISA law was passed in the first place).
Cheers,
Here you go folks. The opinions of a man who knows more about the constitution than all of us. He has some pretty harsh words for the congress and the pres:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/05/10.html#a8240
So, by the Bushies' logic, can we also round up all the Arab-Americans and place them in internment camps the way Roosevelt did with Japanese-Americans during WWII.
ReplyDeleteOn second thought, don't answer that.