Yesterday, I referenced an article in National Review by Jonah Goldberg in which Goldberg argued that the two most glaring examples of failed Republican presidents -- Richard Nixon and George Bush -- weren't conservatives at all, but were actually liberals. I characterized this claim as "dishonest" because, as I pointed out, virtually no conservatives were claiming that Bush was a "liberal" when his popularity ratings were in the 60s and he was perceived as some sort of heroic, beloved political figure. It is only now that his approval ratings are reaching historically low levels, and it is becoming unavoidably apparent that his presidency is dying and failed, that conservatives are seeking to claim that Bush's failure is not a failure of conservatism because -- as it turns out -- Bush was really a liberal all along. Alas, Bush's failure is simply the latest instance of the failure of liberalism.
Both Jonah as well as Jon Henke of QandO (both on his blog and in comments here yesterday) responded to my contention (Jonah doing so without even linking to my post, always a sure sign that someone is blogging with intense resentment and anger). Jonah and Jon both claim that my argument is unfair and inaccurate because Jonah -- like many other conservatives -- has long criticized President Bush specifically and "compassionate conservatism" generally. Henke, for instance, points to Goldberg's long-standing "criticism of Bush's free-spending, 'big government' brand of conservatism," while Goldberg points out that he has "criticized compassionate conservatism for at least five years and running." I don't disagree with any of that -- to the contrary, in response to Henke's comments here, I acknowledged that -- but it is entirely besides the point. And the point I was making encompasses far more than just Goldberg, who is merely illustrative of the emerging tactic by conservatives which I was condemning.
There is a vast difference -- really a fundamental difference -- between (a) expressing criticisms of the strain of conservatism espoused by the president (compassionate conservatism, big government conservatism, etc.) or objecting to isolated, discreet policies of the president as being insufficiently conservative, and (b) claiming that the president is not a conservative at all, but is actually a liberal. Many conservatives, including Goldberg, have made statements which fall squarely in category (a) throughout the president's first term, and I never said or implied otherwise.
What is new, however -- and this was the point I made yesterday quite clearly -- is that conservatives are no longer merely criticizing isolated policies of Bush's or claiming that his conservatism isn't the right type. They are now trying to repudiate him altogether, claiming that he is not and never was one of them, because Bush actually isn't a conservative at all. Actually, like Nixon, he is a liberal. As Goldberg put it rather unambiguously:
But there is one area where we can make somewhat useful comparisons between Nixon and Bush: their status as liberal Republicans.
That newfound premise enables conservatives to argue that the collapse of the Bush presidency is not a case where a conservative failed. This is a case where a President failed because he wasn't a conservative at all, but was actually a liberal. Now that Bush's presidency is rapidly becoming an irreversible failure, the effort is underway to attribute those failures to Bush's liberalism -- something we never heard when Bush was popular and his presidency thriving.
In a very prescient post, Digby, quoting a speech from Rick Perlstein, predicted back in January that exactly this would happen. In fact, Digby and Perlstein's description of what conservatives would say once Bush's presidency irrevocably collapsed was almost verbatim what Goldberg said in his article:
My point was not that Grover and company were going to leave the Republican Party, but that they were laying the groundwork for purging others from the coalition. They will not do this while Bush is in office, for obvious reasons, but they are beginning to make the case that Bush was not a "real conservative" and therefore anything he did while in office cannot be defined as "conservatism." They do this whenever a politician becomes unpopular.
I linked to Rick Perlstein's post on HuffPo from a while back in which he tells of his speech to the conservative cabal that was meeting at Princeton late last year:
This part of my talk, I imagine, is long after the point a constitutive operation of conservative intellectual work has clicked on in your minds: the part where you argue that malefactor A or B or C, or transgression X or Y or Z, is not "really" conservative. In conservative intellectual discourse there is no such thing as a bad conservative. Conservatism never fails. It is only failed.
One guy will get up, at a conference like this, and say conservatism, in its proper conception, is 33 1/3 percent this, 33 1/3 percent that, 33 1/3 percent the other thing. Another rises to declaim that the proper admixture is 50-25-25.It is, among other things, a strategy of psychological innocence. If the first guy turns out to be someone you would not care to be associated with, you have an easy, Platonic, out: with his crazy 33-33-33 formula--well, maybe he's a Republican. Or a neocon, or a paleo. He's certainly not a conservative. The structure holds whether it's William Kristol calling out Pat Buchanan, or Pat Buchanan calling out William Kristol.
Dave Neiwert described it this way: "But he is in essence disposable, an empty suit filled by the psychological needs of the movement he leads. He's sort of like a Fraternity President on steroids: Bush's presidency is all about popularity, not policy." And this is how Atrios put it: "The interesting paradox is, as I've written before, that they'll dump Bush and transfer the cult onto the next Daddy figure that comes along."
Sure, it's true -- as Goldberg and Henke point out -- that conservatives periodically criticized Bush throughout his first term for particular deviations from what they thought was pure conservative doctrine -- too much spending here, support for an unwarranted entitlement program there. But with very few exceptions (e.g., Pat Buchanan), they did not claim that Bush was not a conservative, and they certainly never claimed that he was a liberal. That is what is new -- glaringly new.
The argument which began as a claim that Bush the Conservative sometimes advocated un-conservative views has morphed into a claim that Bush is not and never was a conservative at all. That is the difference between, on the one hand, claiming that someone is an impure and imperfect ideologue, and on the other, excommunicating them entirely and claiming that they are not even part of your political movement.
I happen to agree that, in most areas of significance, Bush has never governed as a conservative -- to the extent conservatism is understood as being devoted to principles of restrained federal power rather than an eagerness for expanded authoritarian force -- and his policies rest on premises wholly antithetical to core conservative principles (the most notable exception being judicial appointments, which have been consistently geared towards appointing and elevating conservative jurists to the federal bench). I have written multiple posts here making exactly that point, and wrote an article published several weeks ago in The American Conservative (not available online) which was, in part, premised on that fact. As this week's excellent report from the Cato Institute documented, and as has been evident for a long time, this administration, in almost every area, seems driven by one overarching principle -- an endless expansion of its own power in almost every sphere.
Nonetheless, the reason it is "dishonest" for conservatives to now distance themselves from Bush -- not merely by criticizing isolated policies but by claiming he isn't a conservative at all -- is because conservatives have long and enthusiastically embraced Bush as one of their own and never called him a "liberal" until very recently. Bush won the Republican nomination in 2000 against John McCain as a result of the vigorous support of conservatives. Bush has called himself a conservative ever since he appeared on the national political scene and very few conservatives have -- until very recently -- ever objected to that label.
Conservatives have continuously claimed Bush as one of their own despite his big-government approach, which many have insisted is actually used by Bush as a tool to promote the conservative agenda. Here, for instance, is Christopher Wilcox in The New York Sun in an article effusively praising conservative Fred Barnes's reverent literary tribute to Bush's greatness:
One of Mr. Barnes's most important points is how unhappy many conservatives are with Mr. Bush's big-spending ways. This certainly has been reported elsewhere, but Mr. Barnes goes further, claiming that Mr. Bush is deliberately transforming the conservative movement from its small-government orientation to a more activist approach.
Conservative Fred Barnes recognized that Bush has aggressively expanded the reach of the federal government but wrote a whole book praising Bush as a grand success. Blogs for Bush echoed this view, praising Bush for expanding federal power in service of conservative policies. Conservatives have been forced to recognize that Bush has expanded the power of the federal government -- that fact is just unavoidably true -- but they never claimed that made him a liberal, until now.
What is going on here, quite transparently, is a rehabilitative project. Bush's presidency cannot be salvaged, but the reputation of conservatives/conservatism can be -- by separating the former from the latter. Had that separation been insisted upon when Bush's presidency looked to be an epic success, I would have had no objection to it; indeed, I would have agreed with that effort, since I have long believed that Bush's self-description as a "conservative" was a manipulative misnomer. But during Bush's high-flying years, most conservatives embraced Bush as one of their own, and even now, the dwindling band of Bush loyalists are self-described conservatives.
As a political reality, conservatives are responsible for Bush's presidency. They claimed him as one of their own and engineered both of his elections. The newfound recognition that -- hey, what do you know? -- Bush, after all, turns out to be a liberal, is prompted by the collapse of his presidency, the collective realization that he has been a grand failure, and a desire to shield conservatism from the fallout. If this labelling of Bush as a "liberal" were prompted by genuine and intellectually honest observations, then the claim from conservatives that Bush is really a liberal would have been made long before he tumbled to 32%. It wasn't, and that is what makes it so dishonest.
UPDATE: To underscore the point just a bit more, Digby wrote in November of last year:
There is no such thing as a bad conservative. "Conservative" is a magic word that applies to those who are in other conservatives' good graces. Until they aren't. At which point they are liberals. Get used to the hearing about how the Republicans failed because they weren't true conservatives. Conservatism can never fail. It can only be failed by weak-minded souls who refuse to properly follow its tenets. It's a lot like communism that way.
Reading Goldberg's article describing Bush as a "liberal," is it possible to imagine a more perfect embodiment of exactly what Digby is describing?
UPDATE II: Jonah replies to this post with a reasonable, mostly substantive response, including an explanation that he failed to link to my post due to an oversight, which I believe. I actually think these issues are both interesting and important, and so I will try to answer Jonah's post later today, though it may have to wait until tomorrow.
Renaming themselves, or fiddling with micro-semantics doesn't zip back through time and change actual events though. The panic-stricken Repugs circled their wagons and attacked critics even when the facts of this administration's wrongdoing and failures were abundantly clear. (Everyone was, despite media pretenses otherwise, working from the same facts; the other half were just pretending not to notice them.)
ReplyDelete.
Until the backpeddlers admit that, their attempt to slowly step away in the hope of slapping a liberal label on this extreme right wing admin won't play. (Even by wingnut pretzel logic, it's ridiculous to pretend that critics of the Bush admin were by definition "liberals", and now the failed and reckless admin were also "liberals" all along.)
Good post. I'm sure someone is currently combing the National Review archives finding even more examples.
ReplyDeleteYou see this sort of thing all the time with religions and cults. The second coming didn't happen in 1996, but it'll happen in 2000 for sure. Or 2001. If the facts don't match the theory, it's not because it's a bad theory, it's because the theory didn't actually predict what people said it predicted.
" ... during Bush's high-flying years, most conservatives embraced Bush as one of their own ... "
ReplyDeleteI had the distinct impression that the smarter, actual conservatives were holding their noses during this embrace. Which makes them all the worse, because they KNEW what Bush was. Now let's see if the born-again set figures out he's not one of them, either.
Shouldn't Mr. Greenwald's mind self-implode at this point? His big theory was that conservatives are all in some authoritarian cult around Bush, so much so that they identify conservatism with anything that Bush does, and accordingly label any criticism of Bush as "liberal."
ReplyDeleteNow Goldberg has called Bush himself a "liberal." So what will happen now? According to Greenwald's theory, this is impossible in the first place: Goldberg should be identifying conservatism with Bush. What will happen next? Other conservatives will label Goldberg a "liberal" for labeling Bush a "liberal"?
I strongly agree that Bush is not, and never has been, a conservative in the traditional meaning of the term in modern American politics. But "not conservative" does not equate to "liberal". With this administrations's monomaniacal focus on the accumulation of power, I suggest that Mr. Bush and his ilk are more aptly categorized as totalitarian and anti-democratic, far off the acceptable spectrum of American political philosophy.
ReplyDeleteYou see, it's great post like this that has lead me to go on indefinite hiatus. I am simply in awe as to how you can explain what I am intuitively thinking but lack the words to express. You are a God-A Blogging God!
ReplyDeletePerhaps it goes to show you, the word has been demonized and disemboweled to the extent that it is meaningless.
ReplyDeleteGuess is the faux "advertise liberally" circle of links can proclaim themselves liberal, why not chimpy?
This is not just from the right. Perhaps it would be helpful for those that say they are on the left to get back to the basics, the socio-economic issues that allow families the opportunity to raise children with a respectful lifestyle.
Clearly, chimpy doesn't give a damn about poverty, under his policies the poverty rates have soared. Of course, not that the faux "advertise liberally" crowd gives a damn.
"Liberal/progressive" politics used to create coalitions of people that won elections. Now it is a meaningless word.
and there i was all ready to share my profound insight that this is exactly the way the far left treats communism, and then you slapped that digby quote on the very end of the post...
ReplyDeleteNational Review (and other American) conservatives: People who get up in the morning, look in the mirror, don't like what they see and figure they must be looking at a liberal.
ReplyDeleteShouldn't Mr. Greenwald's mind self-implode at this point? His big theory was that conservatives are all in some authoritarian cult around Bush, so much so that they identify conservatism with anything that Bush does, and accordingly label any criticism of Bush as "liberal."
ReplyDeleteAs I made clear more times than I can count, but for some reason can't seem to induce people like you who need a way to criticize my authoritarian cult post to ingest - I strongly agreed with the posts from Digby, Atrios, Dave Neiwert and others who said, in response to that post, that the movement would get rid of Bush as Leader once he was no longer able to sustain it - either because of failing popularity or any other impediment - and they would find a new Leader. That is precisely what is happening now. He failed, so it is time to repudiate him.
Oh, right: This just proves Greenwald's second theory that conservatives, far from defending Bush as a "conservative" at all costs, are in fact turning on Bush for failing to be "conservative."
ReplyDeleteHow convenient that no matter what happens, no matter whether conservatives support or oppose Bush, Greenwald can claim that this proves his theory.
Also: If anyone is being "dishonest" here, it's Greenwald's insistence that Goldberg never criticized Bush's "liberal" beliefs before. Sure, Goldberg may not have used the exact words "Bush is a liberal Republican" before. But he sure as heck put forward that very idea. See this column from Sept. 2005, for example, where Goldberg says, "Ultimately, this is the core problem with all ideologies that try to make government an extension of the family. Welfare-state liberalism wants the government to act like your mommy. Compassionate conservatives want the state to be your daddy. The problem: Government cannot love you, nor should it try."
Translation: Goldberg is basically equating Bush's philosophy with welfare-state liberalism.
Or see this column from Jan. 2004, where he says, "after three years with George W. Bush at the helm, many conservatives are starting to feel like we've been sent to the catacombs." Nowhere does Goldberg say that Bush really is a "conservative," just of a different stripe. To the contrary, the whole column is criticizing Bush for NOT being conservative at all. Again, he may not use the exact words "Bush is a liberal Republican," but any literate reader would get that message.
[Note to Greenwald: Figure out whether anyone ever labeled Goldberg a "liberal" in 2004 for writing a column so critical of Bush.]
A while ago on Meet the Press, David Brooks said:
ReplyDelete"Sometimes in my dark moments, I think [George W. Bush] is 'The Manchurian Candidate' designed to discredit all the ideas I believe in."
That statement really sums up what's going on right now. Conservatives see that the Bush administration is a sinking ship, and they are worried he will drag conservatism itself down with him.
I think the problem is that Goldwater/Reagan conservatism was never a tenable or coherent governing philosophy. It was a collection of slogans dreamed up by people far removed from the task of actually governing. Bush was the first Goldwater/Reagan conservative to preside over a unified Republican government. So instead of paying lipservice to conservative principles, he was actually forced to govern with them. And it has been a disaster. Those principles have proven to be incoherent and ill-suited to actually governing. Now discliples of Goldwaterism are worried that their very reason for being has been discredited, perhaps permanently. So they have to distance Bush from those principles.
Actually, paleoconservative Paul Craig Roberts has been saying that Bush is not a conservative for years now. However, he doesn't call Bush a liberal, and he has long been getting a -lot- of flack from bona fide conservatives for being a traitor and blasphemer.
ReplyDeleteIt's an interesting kind of doubltethink that this part of the blogosphere engages in:
Bush is failing because he is a liberal after all...BUT he spent 4 years being opposed by terrorist-loving, sectarian -liberals-!!
The Plame case, the NSA issue, and so many others, are all attacks by the liberal elites...targeting Geroge W. Bush, the liberal.
George W. Bush, the liberal, has appointed two heavily conservative judges to the supreme court, as well as hundreds for lesser courts. Probably in support of his secret gay marriage and abortion right manteinance agenda.
Bush's semi-privatization of Social security was foiled by his ideological bedmates...the liberals.
It'sa fun game...that can be played ad infinitum.
Oh no you don't, Bushbots,you are not getting away that easily. The whole country is becoming aware that the world view of the American Conservative "Movement" is bad for ordinary Americans, and unhitching yourselves from the Bush bandwagon won't save you now. We see you, and you are ugly.
ReplyDeleteSo, the Bush Cultist don't like their man anymore? How could this happen? Because amoral, syncophantic rats always abandon ship when all hope of bountiful crumbs is lost.
Isn't it strange - Bush is a liberal, yet it's liberals who've been opposed to him from the start. What an odd thing the conservative mind is.
ReplyDeleteWhat else is dishonest in Goldberg's collumn? How about,
ReplyDelete"Nixon has a fascinating reputation as one of the most right-wing presidents of the 20th century."
Who in the world thinks Nixon was a right-wing conservative? Some one who, no doubt, has no idea what the term Reagan Revolution means. Perhaps the beer-swilling undergaduates Goldberg invariable meets up with after giving his stump speech to the college Republicans have posters of Nixon plastered in the dorm rooms (next to Reagan and W), and Jonah--Socrates-like--disabsuses them their Nixon-worship. Jonah says Nixon wasn't a conservative because he signed into law the EPA, and every one at the table says, "You're right dude. Nixon sucks."
Oh, and btw, Bush is not a conservative or a liberal- he is a corporate-fascist, grabbing power on behalf of multi-nationals so they can continue to rape the planet from every possible angle, unimpeded by any sensible or humane regulation of their depraved actions.
ReplyDeleteAl Gore once called Bush a moral coward because he never took any action on behalf of the people to the detriment of his corporate cronies. See report of Gore’s speech here
They are now trying to repudiate him altogether, claiming that he is not and never was one of them, because Bush actually isn't a conservative at all.
ReplyDeleteI’m not so sure about “altogether” – the one area where they won’t repudiate him is “national security” and their “war on terrorism” which they desperately need to use against the Democrats this fall.
This, they believe, is their strong suit, and while you'll see criticism on spending, immigration, I don’t think you’ll see too many frontal attacks against the decision to invade Iraq and his policies that supposedly “protect” us from terrorists.
Take, for example, Liddy Dole’s fundraising appeal:
If Democrats take control of the Senate in '06, they will cancel the Bush tax cuts, allow liberal activist judges to run our courts and undermine all Republican efforts to win the War on Terror.
Even worse, they will call for endless congressional investigations and possibly call for the impeachment of President Bush!
So, you see, they really need Bush’s war on terror, which they now describe as entirely “Republican” – they own the “war on terror” just as they own 9/11. Oh, how strange to hear that the impeaching of Bush is even more of threat to them than undermining our “war on terror” – in other words, in this realm, Bush remains “the war on terror” which they will continue to wrap themselves in.
Accordingly, the last thing that will want to hear is how badly Bush has botched even the “war on terror” and as David Cole pointed out today has amounted to little more than tough talk and overheated charges that “evaporate under scrutiny”
And the very last thing so-called conservatives want to hear is this advise:
The administration needs to turn away from symbolism and toward substance if it is to have any hope of protecting us from the next attack.
This is where the Republicans are most vulnerable and why, on this issue, they will stick to Bush.
Doesn't the notion that Bush is a closet liberal immediately lose all credibility by the fact that he is despised by liberals?
ReplyDeleteIn any case, by their actions, the cons who are saying Bush is actually a liberal are also, in essence, validating the criticism that his is an administration that believes words speak louder than actions. No one can deny that no matter what Bush's true ideological classification is, he's been paying lip service to the cons the whole time, but only acting in the interest of political self-preservation or to further the agenda of his supporters/apologists.
It wouldn't be so bad except for the way the word Liberal has been used by the Newsmax crew and others as being synonymous with "icky" Note the usage here.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/h/hillary-soldier.htm
Hillary Clinton (D-NY) has already started her 2008 presidential campaign by aligning herself with the military and pretending to be tough on terror. Fortunately, the ultra-liberal Hillary has yet to brainwash all of the voting public into believers that her symbolism is really substance.
So to these folks calling GW a liberal is really throwing him under the bus.
This was inevitable. In order to sell the new bag of goods they have to distance themselves from the old bag of goods.
ReplyDeleteI'd say what this shows is not how "liberal" Bush and the Republicans in Congress (gotta count them too!) have been but the fundamental inapplicability of the conservative agenda. If they couldn't implement their conservative agenda even when they controlled two parts of government (and a good part of the third), maybe this is a sign that there's something wrong with the agenda.
Northerner
ReplyDeleteSorry bud, you dont get to slip out that easy.
You know how you guys made liberal a bad word?
Pretty soon you will understand how that feels. You can argue logic all you want, but to the average American, conservitism now means the third world they saw on TV after Katrina.
Conservitism means letting corperations assrape the middle class.
Conservitism means high gas prices, polluted enviorments and global warming.
Consevitism means endless war for Halliburton profits and Big Brother.
Conservitism means torture and endless imprisonment of US citizens and wiretapped phones.
Is this true? Who knows, but it is the growing perception.
You guys made your bed than shit all over it. Time to lay in it.
Bush will forever be the albatross around your necks.
BTW
ReplyDeleteThere is a place with no taxes, no restricion on firearms, no enviormental laws, and no Democrats.
Sounds like conservitive heaven doesn't it?
That place is called Somolia, and I'll be damned if I let you physcopathic greed-heads drag us there.
This spat with Jonah is much ado about nothing. Compassionate Conservative or Liberal Republican -- what's the difference? There has been criticism of Bush on his liberal policies. If that was drowned out by support for him, so what? We're living in a polarized time. You stand by your party when duty calls. That's all Jonah, et al. were doing. If you don't do that, then John Kerry wins the election. To call them dishonest; well, not everybody can be a Saint like you.
ReplyDeleteSo the question becomes, can the Conservative ethos, as represented by mere mortals, actually effectively lead a country into health and stability or is it simply a collection of premises worthy of discussion but not workable on the ground?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis spat with Jonah is much ado about nothing. Compassionate Conservative or Liberal Republican -- what's the difference?
ReplyDeleteNight and day. Whether he's one of yours or not. Wheter his failures can be blamed on conservativsm or heaped on liberalism.
This is really almost hilarious. We are starting to hear conservatives say that George Bush is a liberal, and when we take note of that rather startling development, we are told: "Hey, nothing's changed. No big deal. Yeah, Bush is a liberal. Is that something new?"
Sorry, imam, doesn't work.
ReplyDeleteThe dreaded "L" word has only recently been attached to the President. Any criticism of him prior to that point was couched as a policy dispute (as apposed to a philosophical/goverance one) and avoided the label.
Now that he's sinking like a stone and proving more crudely adjusted than James Dean's brakeline, only NOW do the talking heads dare repudiate him so.
Remember, it was the President himself who berated the world "You're either with us, or against us".
I'm getting a bit scared, as I am interpretting what they are saying is that they need an even bigger extremist in the White House. Then the true rightousness of Republicanism will be revealed.
ReplyDeleteIt means that the term "liberal" is being defined by the right. They use is as a "catch-all" for everything they don't like.
ReplyDeleteThe real problem is the way the term is thrown about on the LEFT!
It is a meaningless word because both sides use it to mean "against republicans". This is a lie now and it always was.
In some sense Bush is not a "real" conservative. That, however, doesn't make him a liberal by default. Bush's failure as president is the neoconservative's failured policies. While it is true that Bush has had changing identities in the conservative movement, ultimately his lasting decisions, like Iraq, has been tailored by those that surround him: Cheney, Rumsfield and Rove.
ReplyDeletethe two most glaring examples of failed Republican presidents -- Richard Nixon and George Bush -- weren't conservatives at all
ReplyDeleteThat's because there's no such thing as conservatism, it's just a marketing ploy.
Each GOP preznit since Nixon and the last decade of a GOP controlled Congress proves that: spend like liberals, pander to bigots (but never actually give them what they want). It's all just a cover for laundering tax dollars into private hands and shifting the tax burden off of the useless an on to people who actually work for a living.
Honest conservatives are just suffering from battered spouse syndrome. They keep returning to their abusers.
.
That, however, doesn't make him a liberal by default.
ReplyDeleteOutside of the GOP's trailer-park constituency, you mean?
Ford and Chevy. Levi and Wranglers. Cotton and polyester. Tastes great, less filling. It's the yin and yang of an exploitable, ignorant mass.
Nevermind that "liberal" and "conservative" are so unmoored from their actual meanings as to be functionally useless in talking about actual policy.
.
Would someone please enlighten us as to exactly why Jonah Goldberg is qualified to render an opinion on these matters (other than the fact that he is the spawn of the most excreable Lucianne Goldberg)? And why newspapers and other purveyors of dead tree fiber bother to print his screeds (other than the need to stir the waters in order to attract eyeballs)?
ReplyDeleteHe is merely a propagandist worthy of some backwater Soviet province; my seven-year old daughter's opinions mean more than Goldberg's.
I'm having a hard time figuring out what policies and actions, exactly, have made Bush a "compassionate conservative" anyway.
ReplyDeleteSure, I suppose a small number of Bush's legislative proposals may have lacked a hardcore conservative quality to them...
...but the decline of the Bush Administration is 95% attributable to two things: the Katrina response (or lack thereof), and the War in Iraq. Neither of these have the earmarks of compassionate anything, or liberalism.
Jon Henke tries to defend the about-face of some people by pretending that Dubya actually was always "liberal" and that conservatives had criticised him for it all along:
ReplyDeleteThe column was replete with criticism of "compassionate conservatism", which Goldberg essentially called liberal governmental means to conservative cultural goals.
Only problem with this is that "compassionate conservative" was just campaign smoke'n'mirrors and that Dubya has never been "compassionate" in action, either as a "liberal" or a "conservative".
On the 'Arbeit Macht Frei-inan' phrase "compassionate conservative", I'd note that Michael "Savage" Weiner long ago accused Dubya of stealing that phrase from "Savage" (and not meaning it). But just a Google of "Michael Savage" or a listen to his foaming will give you an idea of what this "compassionate conservatism" consists of. It's an oxymoron. And in Dubya's case, a campaign ploy. Goldberg may disagree with what Dubya has done, but that hardly makes him either a "compassionate conservative (and harldy one of the Michael "Savage" variety) or a liberal. No. Dubya's a crony corporatist capitalist through and through. And a bully to boot. Compare Dubya's response to Karla Faye Tucker with the astoundingly more "compassionate" response of the Republican (former) Governor Ryan to a serious issue.
Cheers,
Is Bush the GOP's Goldstein?
ReplyDeleteThere's no such thing as "conservatism." Old school conservative "values"--fiscal responsibility, smaller government, state's rights, individual liberties, &c.--were gleefully sacrificed on the altar of political expediency. The Republican Party must be banished to the wilderness for at least a generation, having proved beyond a doubt their total inability to govern.
ReplyDeletethe one area where they won’t repudiate him is “national security” and their “war on terrorism”
ReplyDeleteI'm not so sure. I think if there was to be another major terrorist incident on US soil which pointed up the lack of progress in securing vulnerable facilities since 9/11, then he'd be abandoned on that issue as well.
Now that he's sinking like a stone and proving more crudely adjusted than James Dean's brakeline, only NOW do the talking heads dare repudiate him so.
ReplyDeletePerhaps both you and Glenn are mixing up cause and effect. Perhaps he's sinking like a stone because his base is upset about the huge government spending, immigration, the Dubai ports, etc. His approval rating on the immigration issue is like 25%, about 10 points less than on Iraq.
Glenn quoting Digby:
ReplyDeleteThere is no such thing as a bad conservative. "Conservative" is a magic word that applies to those who are in other conservatives' good graces. Until they aren't. At which point they are liberals. Get used to the hearing about how the Republicans failed because they weren't true conservatives. Conservatism can never fail. It can only be failed by weak-minded souls who refuse to properly follow its tenets. It's a lot like communism that way.
Hear, hear! When I started reading that paragraph, it brought immediately to mind the complaints of the various communist sects that the failures of the others was because they weren't the "true" communists. A certain relative of mine of the Marxist persuasion dismisses others with disdain as "revisionist Trotskyite" and such. While there is some truth to the claim that communism has never failed as it's never been tried, at least as Marx first described it (at least on the level of a whole country), that doesn't free it from the many sad case studies that show that, given human nature, it may be physically and politically impossible to achieve. And for that, communism has to answer (not to mention its faux "scientific" underpinnings as an objective description of an inexorable process that must happen).
But conservatism here has the same problem ... and is exhibiting the same symptoms.
Cheers,
Jonah says in his "rebuttal":
ReplyDeleteI'd be willing to bet his numbers all go significanly upward well before the end of his presidency.
I tihink you should take that bet Glenn. I would be willing to wager that Bush never sees the north side of 50% again, unless vast oil reserves are discovered underneath his ranch in Crawford.
Northerner said...
ReplyDeleteShouldn't Mr. Greenwald's mind self-implode at this point? His big theory was that conservatives are all in some authoritarian cult around Bush, so much so that they identify conservatism with anything that Bush does, and accordingly label any criticism of Bush as "liberal."
Now Goldberg has called Bush himself a "liberal." So what will happen now? According to Greenwald's theory, this is impossible in the first place: Goldberg should be identifying conservatism with Bush. What will happen next? Other conservatives will label Goldberg a "liberal" for labeling Bush a "liberal"?
10:55 AM
I give it an 8! It's got a great beat and I can dance to it!
northerner:
ReplyDeleteShouldn't Mr. Greenwald's mind self-implode at this point? His big theory was that conservatives are all in some authoritarian cult around Bush, so much so that they identify conservatism with anything that Bush does, and accordingly label any criticism of Bush as "liberal."
Nope. Greenwald correctly (or as correctly as group generalisations can) described the Cult'O'Bush, but this does have room for indiviual variations, and easily accepts the fact that some folks will eventually balk at the hypocrisy and split, and that others will engage in the more prosaic behaviour of saving their own a$$es in the face of a tsunami of reality. That doesn't change the fact that there's some three in ten with a penny's worth of change that are still sticking with Dubya despite the fact that reality should dictate that were everyone honest and rational, that number should be a flat-lined zero.
HTH.
Cheers,
northerner:
ReplyDeleteAlso: If anyone is being "dishonest" here, it's Greenwald's insistence that Goldberg never criticized Bush's "liberal" beliefs before. Sure, Goldberg may not have used the exact words "Bush is a liberal Republican" before. But he sure as heck put forward that very idea. See this column from Sept. 2005,...
Sept. 2005!!! Gimme a break.
Cheers,
Traditionally, the delineating line between conservatives and liberals has been about social justice/injustice. This is often best understood in economic terms along with its social ramifications.
ReplyDeleteIn essence, conservatives believe that humans are blessed by nature with talents that will ensure their success or failure in socio-economic terms. Those with the best talents rise to the top, others in varying degrees fall along the socio-economic hierarchy.
For conservatives, any injustices created by this situation must be worked out by enabling educational regimes that have built-in reward/punishment mechanisms. Those who socialize well and train well are rewarded with the social and economic benefits. Any socio-economic injustices are to be worked out at the level of personal character.
For conservatives, governmental interference in this natural process is actually interference that ultimately stymies social, economic, and personal growth because it inhibits the assumed natural order. Inequalities and injustice are just part of the world and must be accepted to ensure greater social order.
For liberals, the social order's inequalities and injustices must be addressed by various procedures and processes that level out the playing field. Many liberals, for example, see that the distribution of socio-economic benefits as morally wrong, and they must therefore be balanced out in some way--usually through political solutions that distribute the socio-economic benefits in a more equitable and just way.
Obviously, the preceding paragraphs describe a complex situation very schematically and over simplistically. It does not describe the varying degrees to which conservatives and liberals carry their analyses and consequent solutions.
Within this framework, it would seem that Bush is a classic conservative. His social and economic policies tend toward the conservative bias for the natural disposal of rewards and punishments. Many in the conservative camps might agree to this in terms of domestic policy, but some see the Bush foreign policy as perhaps a non-conservative approach because of its social engineering veneer.
Yet, the neo-conservative aspect to Bush's foreign policy is one of creative destruction. That is, the neo-conservatives see the effort in foreign policy to be one of destroying the status quo abroad which tends to be contrary to the reward/benefits of the talented. By returning these societies to chaos, they believe that the natural order can reassert itself.
Returning to the domestic scene, many conservatives find Bush's authoritarian proclivities in his admin's tendency to restrict the natural order by fiat from above. This is troubling because it appears at face value to disrupt that natural disposal of socio-economic rewards and benefits. Instead, the natural flow of information, for example, is replaced by an artificial restraint from above.
This is further perceived as a threat by some conservatives because it seems to indicate the potential for the authoritarian model to migrate to other aspects of socio-economic life. In this way, the Bush admin's sabotage of the constitutional and legal framework is perceived as a threat to a traditionally evolved set of time-tested standards. These standards guarantee the working out of the individual's natural talents, as described above.
"Compassionate conservatism" has always been just another ruse to further blur the line between religion and government while slipping more of your tax dollars to certain religious fronts. Anyone who uses the term in relation to conservative politics is neither a conservative, nor a liberal. fjsw
ReplyDeleteleo:
ReplyDeleteIf they couldn't implement their conservative agenda even when they controlled two parts of government (and a good part of the third), maybe this is a sign that there's something wrong with the agenda.
Indeed. See my comments above along the same lines (but in reference to a different group).
Cheers,
For conservatives, the "Cult of Bush" that Greenwald described is a lesser subset of the "Cult of Conservatism".
ReplyDeleteJust like Aesop's fox who concluded that the grapes were sour, conservatives like Goldberg are making it easy to abandon the "Cult of Bush" by simply moving the circles in the political Venn diagram, and engaging in some revisionism.
Glenn's post here is a case study in how people deal with cognitive dissonance, and should be recommended reading to all Psych 101 students.
Excellent observations Glenn,
ReplyDeleteYou really got a good view of this type of implosion and distancing from the extremely sincere William Kristol’s stuttering and stammering reaction to Colbert’s pointed question.
Suddenly, an archetypical neo-con such as Rumsfeld, has been dismissed as more distant than an acquaintance and an after-thought signatory to the neo-con PNAC.
The incompetence of this Administration’s and its policies are married in the conservative/neo-conservative agenda. Why the sudden change in opinion about execution? Polls! Same policies—Same rhetoric—Same people—New POLLS.
I must say how refreshing it is, though. For the longest time (5 years) I thought I was living in a country that the majority of the people had decided to go in the opposite direction. It was devastating. Fortunately, it was only ignorance that led swing voters to vote for this pathetic excuse for a pRESIDENT. Now that the results of these policies are affecting average Americans, the polls are finally reflecting their discontent.
People who claim that Glenn’s theory of “Cult Bush” has been disproved by this latest post are off the mark.
Bush is a brand, devised and sold as conservatism. It was bought wholesale by those unwilling to lend an ounce of scrutiny to the marketing. The base of this market are the absolutely blind ideologues and the architects of the movement.
I’ve stated months ago about the pavlovian response of the electorate to the bell ringing, as well as the Darwinian result of their policies. Once the electorate became deaf to the bell the ringer’s throw out the bell (Bush) until a new conditioning mechanism is devised. They are now in survival mode. The instrument of the message has failed and it will suffer the consequences. Bush is now being dispatched as the failed instrument not as a failure of the process of conditioning. A new whistle will be used to try and recondition the masses.
Take this gem for example:
From Imam
"Perhaps both you and Glenn are mixing up cause and effect. Perhaps he's sinking like a stone because his base is upset about the huge government spending, immigration, the Dubai ports, etc. His approval rating on the immigration issue is like 25%, about 10 points less than on Iraq."
20-25% is the base. They will always be the base. They are the like thinkers. That 20-25% only care about the product (whatever convolution of conservatism you chose). They just need to find a new salesman to peddle their product.
What will happen next? Other conservatives will label Goldberg a "liberal" for labeling Bush a "liberal"?
ReplyDeleteOnly the ones that can't count to eight and read a calendar.
Bush is an empty shell casing. Time to reload. Or, as Kang and Kodos put it, "the politics of failure have failed. It is time to make them work again."
Goldberg and the rest of the leninists will soon seize on a new vehicle for their failed ideas, blasting any of HIS critics as liberals.
.
If you're citing Diby's prophecy, allow me to blogwhere:
ReplyDeleteDispensing with the Dispensable Man, November 16, 2005.
The meaninglessness of "conservatism," February 13, 2006.
Looks like we're right on schedule. If the GOP's pattern plays out, they'll pick someone they don't really believe believes in voodoo economics, abandon him after one lacklust term, wander in the desert for a while, and then settle on another doddering candidtate who's sufficiently non-compos-mentis that they can project their need daddy needs on him.
In between, there will be messes for Democrats to clean up.
.
note to self: edit posts.
ReplyDeleteanother note to self: find snarky use for neologism "lacklust"
.
Sorry to be the spelling police, but it's "discrete"
ReplyDeleteI'd be willing to bet his numbers all go significanly upward well before the end of his presidency.
ReplyDeleteI tihink you should take that bet Glenn. I would be willing to wager that Bush never sees the north side of 50% again, unless vast oil reserves are discovered underneath his ranch in Crawford.
Should we let Bill Bennett in on this pool?
.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWhat else is dishonest in Goldberg's collumn? How about,
"Nixon has a fascinating reputation as one of the most right-wing presidents of the 20th century."
Milton Freidman thought Nixon was the most "socialist" of our presidents up until that time.
Frum at Cato. Those days are over.
The rats are fleeing the sinking ship and now it's every rodent for themselves. Unfortunately for the rats, it's not going to be easy to wash their hands of the failed Bush presidency. They have left a clear record - a paper(cyber)trail - for all the world to see. They cast their lot long ago when they ignored reality and kept riding the SS Bush.
ReplyDeleteAs someone posted upthread, the Bush presidency is the albatross that will hang around the necks of Republicans and conservatives for years to come.
Glen Greenwald - This is really almost hilarious. We are starting to hear conservatives say that George Bush is a liberal, and when we take note of that rather startling development, we are told: "Hey, nothing's changed. No big deal. Yeah, Bush is a liberal. Is that something new?"
ReplyDeleteI have been saying for some time that Bill Clinton was the best "Republican" president since Eisenhower.
"Without words said, a wave of understanding rippled through the crowd. Oceania was at war with Eastasia! The next moment there was a tremendous commotion. The banners and posters with which the square was decorated were all wrong! Quite half of them had the wrong faces on them. It was sabotage! The agents of Goldstein had been at work! There was a riotous interlude while posters were ripped from the walls, banners torn to shreds and trampled underfoot. The Spies performed prodigies of activity in clambering over the rooftops and cutting the streamers that fluttered from the chimneys. But within two or three minutes it was all over. The orator, still gripping the neck of the microphone, his shoulders hunched forward, his free hand clawing at the air, had gone straight on with his speech. One minute more, and the feral roars of rage were again bursting from the crowd. The Hate continued exactly as before, except that the target had been changed."
ReplyDeletegrand moff texan... another note to self: find snarky use for neologism "lacklust"
ReplyDeleteWhat Bob Dole takes Viagra for. You would too, if you were married to Liddy Dole. Damn that Bebe Rebozo!
Seconding Wingnut, I've often been struck by how similar Bill Clinton and George Bush are. Take Clinton's silver tongue, fashion it into a backbone and put it back in and you have Bush. Both speak to their base, govern to the middle, are reviled by the people they reach out to and are supported by the people they reject.
ReplyDeleteBut there's no such thing as a Bushbot outside of liberal fantasies. Never has been. Conservatives were never enthralled with Bush. Just because certain liberals are finally starting to awaken to that fact doesn't mean it just started happening.
Bush is neither a conservative nor a liberal. He is a totalitarian.
ReplyDeleteAnd when the conservatives embraced Bush, they embraced totalitarianism, too.
Willingly and knowingly.
I fear that we are in some sort of a weird post-liberal/conservative period where it is going to be the State against the serfs.
tim mcguire: Seconding Wingnut, I've often been struck by how similar Bill Clinton and George Bush are.
ReplyDeleteTo paraphrase William F. Buckley, did Clinton even have a political philosophy? Reflecting, perhaps, the very conservative elements of Clinton's admin. mixed in with some its liberal agenda.
> Conservatives were never enthralled with Bush. <
ReplyDeleteWell then let's change the subject. How do they feel about wars of aggression or warrantless wiretapping?
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteJust to clarify, are you agreeing with CATO, myself and several others that nearly all of Bush's domestic agenda apart from the tax rate reductions and the partial birth abortion bill is big government liberalism?
It is hard to deny this.
If so, I am presuming that you are then attempting to score hypocrisy points on conservatives for supporting Bush.
However, you are missing Bush's appeal to conservatives - the willingness to use the military against the Islamic fascists, tax rate reductions and abortion.
The conservatives have been grumbling about Bush's liberal domestic agenda for years. Perhaps you missed the criticisms of the roughly 28% increase in spending during the first term, the feud over Bush's cave to Kennedy by removing vouchers from NCLB and how Bush had to muscle his nee medicare entitlement through congress with the help of the Dems and a great deal of pork to Elephants because the GOP nearly rebelled on this?
Far too many Elephants went along with this nonsense. If you want to ream them, go right ahead. I will join you whole heartedly.
However, I find it hilarious that the Dems here are having so much fun condemning Bush for enacting their liberal agenda.
Enjoy the fun boys! Maybe the fact that Bush supports this nonsense will make you adopt conservatism...
tim maguire said...
ReplyDeleteSeconding Wingnut, I've often been struck by how similar Bill Clinton and George Bush are. Take Clinton's silver tongue, fashion it into a backbone and put it back in and you have Bush. Both speak to their base, govern to the middle, are reviled by the people they reach out to and are supported by the people they reject.
But there's no such thing as a Bushbot outside of liberal fantasies. Never has been. Conservatives were never enthralled with Bush. Just because certain liberals are finally starting to awaken to that fact doesn't mean it just started happening.
Once again, Maguire proves that wingnuts and bushbots couldn't spot snark with an arc light in broad daylight. They have lost alll the reference points of a coherent logical framework by having no basic underlying foundation or philosophy.
anon @ 1:37pm: I fear that we are in some sort of a weird post-liberal/conservative period where it is going to be the State against the serfs.
ReplyDeleteWhat many fail to recognize is that neo-con political philosophy is highly suspicious of democratic processes. They see the more natural human state to be one where the best lead the less best.
Nature prefers ahierarchical arrangement of the social order. Therefore, many neo-con theorists hearken back to Plato's description of the ruling caste in Republic as the preferred model for governing a state.
The disembarking of many of the neo-con pundits from the USS Bush is their realization, I suggest, at how non-virtuous he really is. His lack of the theoretical virtue of prudence--something they believed he had because of his gut instincts--has shown the neo-cons that do indeed need to find a new "philosopher king."
I think it could be stated in a couple of different ways:
ReplyDelete(1) The rats are leaving the sinking ship
(2) The lice are leaving the carcas
Nope. Greenwald correctly (or as correctly as group generalisations can) described the Cult'O'Bush, but this does have room for indiviual variations,
ReplyDeleteReally? Then why is Greenwald so nervous every time anyone points out the innumerable times that Goldberg or other conservatives have criticized Bush without themselves then being labeled as "liberal"? Boy, does Greenwald get touchy about that: He says that it is an "indescribably cheap" tactic, etc.
If anyone is being "dishonest" here, it's Greenwald's insistence that Goldberg never criticized Bush's "liberal" beliefs before. Sure, Goldberg may not have used the exact words "Bush is a liberal Republican" before. But he sure as heck put forward that very idea. See this column from Sept. 2005,...
Sept. 2005!!! Gimme a break.
Are you dishonest or illiterate? I also quoted a Goldberg column from January 2004, and in any event, both columns show that Goldberg was criticizing Bush before Spring of 2006 (which is when Greenwald says that Bush's poll numbers are declining and therefore conservatives are abandoning Bush). [Also note that the above commenter was right about cause and effect: It is stupid to suggest that conservatives are abandoning Bush because his poll numbers are declining. It's obviously the other way around.]
I remember Digby's post back in January quite clearly. I think it's one of the best examples of political blogging as science - insofar as science proves hypotheses by making testable predictions.
ReplyDeleteAs recent a recent poll of evangelical Xtians shows, Bush's approval rating among them is down to 55%. This, no doubt, is causing Rep strategists some stomach aches. If they lose the religious right, they have no chance of winning either the congressional elections nor the WH. This fact, I think, is why the Reps will nominate Bill Frist in 2008. His Xtian evangelical standing is higher than Bush's.
ReplyDeleteWe must work to give prairie dogs and field mice (my audience) the vote if we are too keep the conservative revolution going! Painting the map red!
ReplyDeleteGOOD NEWS. Earlier today, Amazon removed its 40% discount from Glenn's book. This followed a REVERSE in sales declines during early morning hours. (Book went from 200 to 160.) Evidently, Amazon is declaring the book a marketing success!
ReplyDeleteIs there any way to tie into comments partway down? Could they be numbered? Then access points could be provided.
Jonah Goldberg started criticizing Bush's spending binge back in 2003 as did Heritage and Cato...
ReplyDelete> http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/jonahgoldberg/2003/06/13/160737.html
http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-31-03.html
tim maguire said...
ReplyDeleteSeconding Wingnut, I've often been struck by how similar Bill Clinton and George Bush are. Take Clinton's silver tongue, fashion it into a backbone and put it back in and you have Bush.
Good time to address this. Clinton's stance on the Vietnam war took more backbone than Bush's. Hands down. Does anyone (besides yourself) ever take you seriously?
bart said...
ReplyDeleteJonah Goldberg started criticizing Bush's spending binge back in 2003 as did Heritage and Cato...
> http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/jonahgoldberg/2003/06/13/160737.html
http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-31-03.html
1:53 PM
I called him Hitler first. You lose.
I always thought he was an idiot. I still do. But Maher got me drunk once after the show so eveyone knows now.
ReplyDeleteDigby is right. Conservatives are going to do to bush what Commies did to Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, etc.
ReplyDelete"What? Him? Oh, he was never on our team and we have nothing to learn from his mistakes."
calvin is getting to be an "old" cat. He remembers that, in a previous life, the Communists used this same trick to discredit administration critics. They weren't really communists. They were revisionists or worse. The worse was being declared mentally ill and placed against one's will into a mental hospital.
ReplyDeleteThis was their version of Catch 22. It's a good thing that we have people like chicken poop Jonah around to keep us informed as to the "true" realities of life.
God forbid that the Dems do it for them. As Colbert noted the other night, "reality has a liberal bias."
Damn Liberal media!
ReplyDeleteAs I expected, we've gotten a number of emails from readers asking why we're giving as much attention as we are to the Patrick Kennedy story over at TPMmuckraker, given that it'll inevitably pull attention away from the various GOP corruption stories.
The answer is simple: when it comes to muck, we're on the case regardless of the person's party affiliation. We wouldn't be true to our mission if we didn't.
The simple fact is that when you have an alleged driving under the influence or sleep-driving story and it involves a Kennedy, the press is going to be all over that. What's new.
But here's what does get my attention. There's another pretty tawdry story that's out there -- one about members of Congress getting sauced up at rollicking parties and set up with hookers by crooked defense contractors in exchange for help bagging pricey defense contracts.
That's pretty salacious too. You'd expect the press to be all over it. As Justin reported yesterday, the legendary Watergate Hotel has already received mulitple subpoenas from federal investigators investigating the hotel's role in 'Hookergate'. So this thing's for real.
Yet, I'm not seeing any morning show's running with it.
And, while the Kennedy story is 'newsy' it doesn't really have any greater policy implications. And the public trust implications are minor. The Wilkes-Watergate-Hooker story, on the other hand, is both. It's salacious, which the press loves. And it's also directly tied to crooks ripping off taxpayers, probably allowing our service members abroad to have shoddy equipment or defense dollars going to worthless projects.
So, we're on the Kennedy case. But why the silence on the much bigger scandal bubbling up out of the House Defense Appropriations Subcommittee?
Cricket, cricket ...
Late Update: A number of readers have told me that NBC Nightly News has a piece on the story last night. Good for them.
I find it hilarious that the Dems here are having so much fun condemning Bush for enacting their liberal agenda.
ReplyDeleteOnce again, the right shows they don't know what the word "liberal" means. But thank you for stopping by to reinforce the thesis of this post. The donation of yourself as a specimen is truly appreciated.
Enjoy the fun boys! Maybe the fact that Bush supports this nonsense will make you adopt conservatism.
Why should we adopt what you have abandoned? Take your failed ideas elsewhere.
.
Involuntary tic from my inner copyeditor: ...objecting to isolated, discreet policies of the president...
ReplyDeleteShould be discrete. And I'll go pick nits in the corner whenever you can't take any more.
These conservatives are indeed behaving like the Marxist true believers who branded their insufficiently orthodox comrades as "counterrevolutionary". And there are lots of parallels to be drawn with organized religions, as well.
More damn liberal media!
ReplyDeleteU.S. Marines go hungry
The Iraq war has been the war fought on the cheap - not enough body armor, not enough armor on vehicles, not enough night vision equipment.
It has been the war in which packages from back home have had to fill some crucial needs.
Now, we have chow call at the Greenwood Credit Union in Warwick, R.I. It's the latest in home-front intervention. It's partially in response to the unthinkable image of U.S. Marines approaching Iraqi citizens and asking for food because they do not have enough.
There's a big barrel in the lobby of the credit union on Post Road in Warwick. It's decorated with ribbons and it's there because Karen Boucher-Andoscia's son, Nick Andoscia, called and asked his mother to send food.
... "I got a letter," says Karen. "And he had called me before that. He said, 'Send lots of tuna.' "
Nick told his mother that he and the men in his unit were all about 10 pounds lighter in their first few weeks in Iraq. They were pulling 22-hour patrol shifts. They were getting two meals a day and they were not meals to remember.
"He told me the two meals just weren't cutting it. He said the Iraqi food was usually better. They were going to the Iraqis and basically saying, 'feed me.' "
Karen started packing in that wartime tradition as old as mothers and sons. She packed a lot of the packaged tuna, not the canned.
She happened to mention her hungry son to people she works with at Greenwood Credit Union, where she is a teller and has worked for 30 years.
Pounds and pounds of food started showing up amid the daily business of loans and deposits and withdrawals. Marianne Barao, the branch manager, said it could be done, the credit union could become the place where people help feed hungry Marines who are risking their lives on a skimpy diet.
"We sent out 51 pounds this week," says Karen. "There are customers coming in saying, 'What do you need?' "...
The last thing he should have to worry about is an empty stomach. The last thing he should have to do is approach Iraqis and ask for food.
You have to wonder what the gracious hosts must think when a fighting man from the richest country on earth comes to their door in search of something to eat.
Are you dishonest or illiterate?
ReplyDeleteIf you didn't read the last post, linked to in this one, it doesn't matter if you're literate or not, you're still ignorant.
We've already dispensed with this kind of goalpost moving.
Move along.
.
Libertarianism is the Marxism of the right.
ReplyDeleteIf Bush policies are liberal, then all the Republicans in the Congress are also liberal since they have rubber stamped his policies throughout his years as president. The few exceptions have occurred since his numbers have dropped. In fact, the majority have gleefully exceeded his budget requests time after time to fund pork projects and funnel money to their large corporate welfare programs.
ReplyDeleteSorry, neither Bush nor his majority party are liberal. Their policies do little for the poor or the middle class (liberal). All their policies are welfare for the rich and to line their own pockets. Haliburton, defense contractors, oil companies, big Pharma and insurance industries etc (Republican - conservative).
I've always been fond of saying that when Bush calls himself a "compassionate conservative," he's lying TWICE.
ReplyDeletewingnut: More damn liberal media!
ReplyDeletewing, you might find the following article by an Iraq/Afghanistan vet (a real "libyarule" he!), detailing how Chickenhawk George and his henpeckers leave the men and women doing their dirty work out in the cold, hungry and without a home.
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteI think "northerner" may actually be on to something, although one has to swim through quite a bit of bile and connect some dots he/she isn't able to.
If you're right that there's a cult of Bush, and if that cult is rejecting its leader, then what's left? Picking a new leader? I don't see anyone on the horizon. Remaining headless? If so, then doesn't that mean that the Bush cultists do have some ideas independent of Bush? Or will they just collapse? Find some way to scapegoat another person and stick with Bush?
I'd really like to hear what you think, because I can't figure it out.
HWSNBN sez:
ReplyDeleteJust to clarify, are you agreeing with CATO, myself and several others that nearly all of Bush's domestic agenda apart from the tax rate reductions and the partial birth abortion bill is big government liberalism?
What "economic agenda apart from the tax rate reductions"?
Oh, you mean the bankruptcy "reform" bill? That kind of stuff makes a conservative's eye tear up....
Or how about privatisation of social security? The same....
Oh, I got it, no-bid contracts for Halliburton.... Ummm, the same....
Oh yeah, free logging in national forests and mining rights giveaways.... Lesse ... more of the same....
Deregulation of media ownership.... Oooops, more of the same....
Rejection of "new source" requirements? Yep. More of the same....
And JOOC, how's the partial birth abortion bill "conservative"?
Cheers,
HWSNBN sez:
ReplyDeleteHowever, you are missing Bush's appeal to conservatives - the willingness to use the military against the Islamic fascists,...
The troll missplelled "pandering to bed-wetting REMFs by pretenting to confront terrorism by way of picking fights with secular dictators so the bed-wetters can feel good about themselves as being 'big men' again".
I note he tossed in "abortion" there. But that's "pandering to the RW fundies" (along with the stem cell nonsense and putting the kibosh on "Pkan B"), who are social authoritarians, and not what used to be strictly called "conservatives" (though it's hard to tell the difference nowadays).
Cheers,
Bush Personnel Announcement at 1:45 ....
ReplyDeleteI'd really like to hear what you think, because I can't figure it out.
They are in complete disarray, ratf@cking each other and trying to hold onto their majorities in the House and Senate, because if they lose one of those, the subpoenas hit the fan and they will all get them some orange jumpsuits.
northerner:
ReplyDeleteReally? Then why is Greenwald so nervous every time anyone points out the innumerable times that Goldberg or other conservatives have criticized Bush without themselves then being labeled as "liberal"? Boy, does Greenwald get touchy about that: He says that it is an "indescribably cheap" tactic, etc.
Haven't seen that sepcific comment in that context, but I see no evidence that Glenn is at all nervous (not that it would actually support your original assertion if he were). You, OTOH, do seem a mite ... "touchy". Bun that's just my humble opinion.
[Arne]: Sept. 2005!!! Gimme a break.
Are you dishonest or illiterate?
Nope.
I also quoted a Goldberg column from January 2004, ...
So? The 2005 quote is no support, and you tendered it as such.
But 2004 is well on the downward slide as well.
Cheers,
Why is it that those who wish to criticize a post are 98% of the time doing so as "anomymous"? Don't want to be identified for some strange reason, I guess. My guess is they aren't "anomymous" on Blogs for Bush.
ReplyDeleteOh brother.
ReplyDeleteThere is actually some humor in all this. For some reason Democrats seem to be fixated on labels and stereotypes. It is certainly the only way that liberals could try and wedge Bush and conservatism.
Let's start with the basics, calling Bush a "liberal Republican" is not calling him a "liberal". You may be sure that Bush is not being likened to John Kerry or Al Gore. Are liberals going to claim Bush as one of their own? Of course not, I can hear gagging from here.
On the other hand, if calling Bush a “liberal” were to persist, fence sitting Democrats might feel better about supporting Bush in the quest for national security. Will this presage a bump in the ratings? Stranger things have happened.
But seriously folks, all that is required to short circuit this wistful view of conservative vulnerability is a couple of well placed vetoes. That's it. Throttle back the pork and the increased tax revenues are going to be highlighted. Better yet, will be the spectacle of liberals who have been calling for fiscal restraint, looking for a way to denigrate getting what they asked for. It's a lovely thought.
Lastly, the idea that conservatives are moving away from Bush, implies that they will be moving toward someone else. McCain perhaps? Considering that the "maverick" label is slipping, it will be interesting to see what you folks come up with for a substitute. Meanwhile Republicans will just keep on winning elections. After all, the liberal leader is Hillary, yes? Heh.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous Liberal Said:
ReplyDeleteI think the problem is that Goldwater/Reagan conservatism was never a tenable or coherent governing philosophy. It was a collection of slogans dreamed up by people far removed from the task of actually governing. Bush was the first Goldwater/Reagan conservative to preside over a unified Republican government. So instead of paying lipservice to conservative principles, he was actually forced to govern with them. And it has been a disaster. Those principles have proven to be incoherent and ill-suited to actually governing. Now discliples of Goldwaterism are worried that their very reason for being has been discredited, perhaps permanently. So they have to distance Bush from those principles.
WOW, that really hits the nail on the head. When I was coming of age politically in the mid to late 80's and beginning to hear the shrill and obnoxious cry of the conservative "movement" that was at that time the land of Limbaugh and Buchanan; I remember thinking that these uncomplicated slogans had no form nor substance to them that could possibly be tenable as governing philosophy. The conservative battle cry to eliminate environmental protections, union influence so as to free the market and we'd all get rich was one such untenable but central goals of the "movement".
Limbaugh and his ilk have used the phraseology of the conservative movement expertly guiding the country to the moment in time we have now. At times I do wonder if they look around at the zenith of the conservative agenda realize anything, see any larger truths and whether they ask themselves if they are responsible for this mess.
Glenn's post illustrates well the credo that anything unpleasant to the movement's reality is labled and tossed into the bin. And, that as Anonymous Liberal has nailed. That is their governing philosophy. The substance of the conservative movement is an effort to create the good and the "ungood" label and have it effectively communicated to the populace via the right wing sound machine what issue gets labled good and "ungood". In other words, they believe that framing the issue and placing those issues in a pre-determined/parametered catergory and effectively communicating this process to the populace will result in governance.
Much like the "we're an empire now" and we create our own reality. After 20 years of intense work by the RW sound machine many people have bought into the idea the governance is no more than a slogan backed by might. Obviously this has resulted in a nightmare senario where a true believer like Bush is now claiming that he has the power to legislate and interperate the constitution w/o checks and balances.
At times I do wonder if these sound machine propagators ever have a flash that maybe something is terribly amiss.
But there's no such thing as a Bushbot outside of liberal fantasies. Never has been. Conservatives were never enthralled with Bush. Just because certain liberals are finally starting to awaken to that fact doesn't mean it just started happening.
ReplyDeleteEr, no.
We need to define our terms here. There is indeed a certain brand of intellectual conservative that has long groused about specific Bush policies, maybe even suggested that in some areas, such as spending, he acts more like a liberal than a conservative. As Glenn notes, however, that never prevented them from embracing him as a fellow traveler when push came to shove; ultimately, he was one of them.
But there is another type of conservative who defines "conservatism" as "whatever the president or the party says it is." I happen to know a guy like this; every new headline on Drudge he e-mails me to me WITH COMMENTS ALL IN CAPITAL LETTERS!!! Politics is like a football game and he's the fan with the painted face and game jersey; it's his team - the Republicans - right or wrong.
And you'd better bet he describes both himself and his president as a conservative.
CIA Director Porter Goss, under suspicion by press articles for having flings with prostitutes provided by former congressman Cunningham who was convicted for corruption, has resigned.
ReplyDeleteShooter242 2:50 PM said...
ReplyDeleteOh! I get it now. Shooter. As in "shooters". As in drinking all day long. An I thought you were a sober gun nut.
They don't. Both positions are useful to them therefore both will be expressed at once.
ReplyDeleteAs in George Bush has failed to support our armed forces by sending them into battle underequipped, undermanned and without a clear mission or proper guidance as to what "success" might constitute. He is therefore a "liberal traitor"
Arnie:
ReplyDeleteSo? The 2005 quote is no support, and you tendered it as such.
But 2004 is well on the downward slide as well.
Baloney. Bush's approval rating in January 2004 was 59%. Downward slide? Maybe if you're comparing it to the post-9-11 numbers, which were astronomically high. But in any event, the fact is that Goldberg was slamming Bush for too-liberal policies in Jan. 2004, at a time when Bush was quite popular. Thus, Greenwald is full of BS. Surprised?
The real genius of the republican propaganda machine is not only that they repudiate their until-recently "dear" and "beloved" leader but they immediately make him a truly viscious, repugnant creature by making him a Liberal because as everybody knows Liberals are to America today what Communists used to be in the good old days of Joe McCarthy.
ReplyDeleteThe rhetoric about "true conservatism" sounds a lot like the way people tried to differentiate "true communism" from the Soviet Union. As in, communism as imagined by Marx is a great idea, but Stalin merely used its rhetoric to to establish a dictatorship. The fact is, "true conservatism," like "true communism," will never exist in reality because it doesn't work - politicians who sell themselves as conservatives always morph into something else, e.g., power-hungry dissemblers.
ReplyDeleteReally? Then why is Greenwald so nervous every time anyone points out the innumerable times that Goldberg or other conservatives have criticized Bush without themselves then being labeled as "liberal"? Boy, does Greenwald get touchy about that: He says that it is an "indescribably cheap" tactic, etc.
ReplyDeleteHaven't seen that sepcific comment in that context, but I see no evidence that Glenn is at all nervous (not that it would actually support your original assertion if he were). You, OTOH, do seem a mite ... "touchy". Bun that's just my humble opinion.
You weren't aware of this comment? I thought you did nothing but hit "reload" on this site 24 hours a day.
Anyway, for the "indescribably cheap" remark from Glenn, see this post. He was reacting with such defensiveness because I pointed out the obvious fact that his "cult" theory had no empirical support whatsoever beyond a few stray quotes, only one of which was from anyone of national renown (Rush Limbaugh), and some of which were from anonymous emailers or bloggers. This was relevant because of Greenwald's latest claim that he makes generalizations based only on citations to "influential and representative Bush followers rather than obscure and unrepresentative ones." (That was a patent falsehood, and it's no wonder he was so defensive when caught.)
There is a place with no taxes, no restricion on firearms, no enviormental laws, and no Democrats.
ReplyDeleteSounds like conservitive heaven doesn't it?
That place is called Somolia, and I'll be damned if I let you physcopathic greed-heads drag us there.
Well, you need to turn it around: The puzzle is, why don't so many self-professed rugged individualists pack up and move to the many libertarian paradises that our planet offers? Somalia, wide swathes of sub-Saharan Africa, and north Asia are all blissfully free of gummint regulatin' -- they're set to become economic dynamos, real soon now! Yet, oddly, none of our freedom-loving Republican friends seem especially eager to get in on the ground floor of these great opportunities. Odd, inn't?
-- sglover
Northerner said...
ReplyDeleteArnie:
So? The 2005 quote is no support, and you tendered it as such.
But 2004 is well on the downward slide as well.
Baloney. Bush's approval rating in January 2004 was 59%. Downward slide? Maybe if you're comparing it to the post-9-11 numbers, which were astronomically high. But in any event, the fact is that Goldberg was slamming Bush for too-liberal policies in Jan. 2004, at a time when Bush was quite popular. Thus, Greenwald is full of BS. Surprised?
I have some nice graphs for you...
Bush's popularity has been dropping since the day he was elected. Thus, you are ... you know the rest.
The parallel with Communism is striking. It is but a short step from saying Bush has failed the conservative revolution to denouncing him as a counter-revolutionary. Do that, and substitute "conservative" for "communist" and you have Soviet rhetoric to a T.
ReplyDeleteLike I was tellin' Ma just the other day -- that sumbitch had "left deviationist wrecker" written all over him from the git-go.
the Bush presidency is the albatross that will hang around the necks of Republicans and conservatives for years to come.
ReplyDeleteSaid the same thing after nixon, wasn't true then and it isn't true now. In reality, because the attention is all focused on a few individuals that were never qualified for high posts in government in the first place, attention is TOTALLY MISDIRECTED away from the people that actually pull the strings.
Complaining about chimpy means we are "paying no attention to the man behind the curtain"
My guess is they aren't "anomymous" on Blogs for Bush.
ReplyDeleteBoy are you an asshat, like posting as "jr." is meaningful and makes you kewl...
So far, that is the most pompus, narcissistic , hypocritical post I have seen today.
More evidence of lack of originality of conservative thinkers: Marxists had this style of argument cornered a generation ago. It's not that Marx was wrong, it's that his ideas were misinterpreted or implemented badly.... There were no real Marxist regimes, they were just state socialist, etc. I think the hard-core conservatives have spent so much time studying Marxism in order to critique it, they don't even realize how much of the worst of it they've internalized. Or maybe they do?
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, I would like to know what "conservatives" really believe. Are they really just yoking Adam-Smith-style-liberal economic policies to classic liberal political theory (with its suspicion of abuses of state power) with a dab of classic republican political theory (with its concern for the common good and a virtuous citizenry)? At least Marxists can point to where they break with liberal political economy; can conservatives? Or are they all really what in the 18th C would have been called liberals?
Bush is an aristocratic, authoritarian fascist. He is a tool of business, and a plutocrat. In other words, the real agenda of the American "conservative" right.
ReplyDeletenortherner: He [Glenn Greenwald] was reacting with such defensiveness because I pointed out the obvious fact that his "cult" theory had no empirical support whatsoever beyond a few stray quotes, only one of which was from anyone of national renown (Rush Limbaugh), and some of which were from anonymous emailers or bloggers.
ReplyDeleteI have cited the video, Faith in the White House, as an inidcation of a Bush cult so many times that I get tired of doing it. Not only is there a cult built along religious lines, as represented by this video, but the political ideology supporting the cult is an example of what used to be called a "cult of personality."
That some conservatives are now jumping ship--the most startling example being perhaps Francis Fukuyama--only indicates that some in the cult still retain a sense of reality. Nothing helps deprogramming cult brainwashing than cold, hard facts.
In addition, that neocons are jumping ship indicates their devotion to the dictum of the noble lie. That is, they only supported Bush and his religious following because religion itself is seen by neocons as a tool to control the masses.
Neocons themselves don't believe in any religious doctrine, but they do support the use of religion to promote their neocon agenda. While the believers go down on their knees in adoration of the man-god, the neocons work behind the scenes machining the hard realities of consolidating the empire.
Again, note that because Bush has shown himself inept at governing and keeping up the image of the noble lie, the neocons can jettison him as a useless tool.
From this discussion, it appears that the difference between "conservative" and "liberal" in terms of what core political theoretical positions define each is something which is mostly of interest to people in government or professional observers of government.
ReplyDeleteThese groups speak amongst each other and use various techniques to figure out how to market their brands to the public by identifying which of their ideas resonate with the public at large and then having the politicians they help elect give lip service to the most "popular" of those views once they are in office.
But "conservatives", "libertarians","liberals", "anti-war candidates", etc. never win any elections.
Republicans and Democrats do.
It's interesting to analyze who is a classic "conservative" Republican or a "liberal Republican" or a "Republican who governs as a liberal", or a
conservative Democrat", etc.
I don't see that it has any practical consequences. Presidents succeed or fail not by how faithfully they adhere to their party platforms (most stray widely, except during photo-ops, from the majority of their "party platforms" the day they get into office) but because of entirely different reasons.
A.L. writes above:
Bush was the first Goldwater/Reagan conservative to preside over a unified Republican government. So instead of paying lipservice to conservative principles, he was actually forced to govern with them. And it has been a disaster.
Actually, I don't know any Democrat or Republican who thought Bush, even on election day, was a "Reagan/Goldwater" conservative. His father wasn't, so why should they expect he would be?
Sunny writes: The whole country is becoming aware that the world view of the American Conservative "Movement" is bad for ordinary Americans
Guess you live on a different block. I never met one person who thinks that.
Sunny then writes:
Bush is not a conservative or a liberal- he is a corporate-fascist, grabbing power on behalf of multi-nationals so they can continue to rape the planet from every possible angle, unimpeded by any sensible or humane regulation of their depraved actions.
This statement appears to contradict the prior statement by Sunny, but the second statement is almost exactly what everyone I know who doesn't support Bush or no longer supports Bush thinks. These are about equally Democrats and Republicans.
Nobody is thinking "The American Conservative Movement is the Worst.
Movement. Ever."
They are all thinking that Bush is the Worst. President. Ever.
Whatever he's done, they don't like it.
BTW, is the War in Iraq a "conservative" or a "liberal" policy position?
Are torture gulags "conservative" or "liberal"?
Is illegal surveillance "conservative" or "liberal"?
Is the Patriot Act "conservative" or "liberal"?
Is the suspension of habeas corpus "conservative or liberal"?
Is a Monarchy put in place because war has been declared against a noun "conservative" or "liberal"?
Obviously all the above must be both because almost every liberal, conservative, Republican and Democrat in government has supported them and voted for them.
The bottom line is that the worst aspects of what Sunny, correctly or incorrectly identifies as, to her, the repugnant "worldview of the American Conservative movement" would remain theoretical points of debate and never get past the drawing board unless Democrats didn't have as their core issue, election after election, increased funding for Big Government.
Once you support giving Government a lot of money, I don't think you have the moral right to wail about how it spends it.
Grow up. How do you think it's going to spend it? On you? On poor people? Have you ever seen one Government in history who really cared about the disadvantaged? Name one.
Governments don't care about poor people. Other people do. You and me. Not Governments. They care about themselves.
Government never spends money the way a particular candidate promises it will and at least some "conservatives" recognize that.
Democratic voters never do.
They elect politicians to "collect the funds" and then a Republican gets in and spends those funds on the War on Drugs and the War on Terror and the Military Industrial Complex, and torture gulags, etc.
I actually hold Leftist liberals most accountable. Their stupid socialistic theories which are so foreign to anyone who actually decides to become a politician (and those are the people who vote on the various legislations) are what funds the Beast.
Every Republican President who has raised taxes and increased government spending has done so against Party Platform.
Democrats promise to do those things.
Increased "funding" always leads to disaster. You can give a teenager a credit card with no limit but don't expect him to exercise much "fiscal restraint."
Endless Wars are costly, haven't you "policy" wonks every noticed that? They need to be funded.
There are no clean hands around here except those of us who have always wanted to support and vote for candidates who run on a platform of extremely and I mean extremely small government and extremely large Consitutional civil liberties.
You know, sort of leave things in the hands of the people, where they belong.
But no such candidates ever run.
I think the main reason everyone likes Glenn so much is essentially because he is in the "Witness Protection Program."
He doesn't hang any of these "labels" on himself or identify himself as affiliated with or supportive of any particular party.
A man of ideas. That's good.
If he had put a "label" on himself, at least half his supporters would probably hate him.
They would blame him for all the failures associated with the policies and implementation of policies, or lack thereof, of that label.
PS. Letting off a little steam about "labels" here, it's about time I told you all that there is nothing in this world more "liberal" than these huge, monstrous, government enabled, multi-national corporatists Frankensteins.
If there were no Pope, there would be nobody to give papal dispensations.
The idiots who seem to think these evil mutants have something to do with laissez-faire capitalism are dumber than a dirt sandwich.
I lurk here and this is my second comment ever, but I can't help it
ReplyDeletethis David Byron is a piece of crap who believes that the U.S. is the world's greatest evil, that it is to blame for everything, and that Al Qaeda was justified in its attacks on the US (because, like everything, even 9/11 was America's fault).
He also defends Castro and every other anti-U.S. regime no matter how murderous, corrupt and destructive they are (just this week, Forbes listed Castro as one of the world's wealthiest individuals, with personal wealth greater than the Queen of England (but he hates the U.S., so he's great).
People like him are just the flip side of the Bush cultists - like those cultists have a pathology of believing that everything about the U.S. is Great and Perfect, Byron belives everything about it is Wicked and Bad. Bush cultists think the U.S. is to blame for nothing - Byron thinks they're to blame for everything. They are the same.
Although, there is something just a little extra sick about growing up in a country, and choosing to live in it in adulthood, and running around constantly saying how bad it is and how everyone else in the world is better. It's a form of self-debasing, self-humiliating masochism which is really disturbing to watch. This mentality also is found almost exclusively among outcasts, misfits and losers - the society rejected them, so now they hate the U.S. What a fucking sick creep.
The point in my mind Jonah per se, it's his post as a *symptom* of "true" conservatives disowning Bush as not conservative. So it matters less to me that Jonah can cite a previous instance of questioning Bush's brand of conservatism... he'd have a hard time convincing anyone that he wasn't on the bandWagon.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, it's refreshing to see Jonah (for the most part) respectfully dispute you instead of freaking out like many of his colleagues tend to do.
Like "Weapons of Mass Destruction", the terms "conservative" and "liberal" are often used more to obscure than describe. It's been obvious for a while that Bush's approach to governance is a departure from what, say, William Buckley or Russell Kirk might prefer -- so in that sense, he's no conservative. On the other hand, conservatives aren't much like what their predecessors had in mind, either. I've taken to using "rightist" or "right-winger" to describe what the Republican Party has evolved into -- and unfortunately for Goldberg and all the other remorseful shills, Bush is the embodiment of everything they've been working towards for the last 25 years.
ReplyDelete-- sglover
This is what happened to CLinton in his first two years in office: he tried to do a liberal thing: health care for everyone. It didn't work.
ReplyDeleteClinton changed and essentially became a conservative by claiming "the era of big government is over." THe government was properous and all was fine in the US.
Was Clinton a true conservative? Is REAL conservatism the way to run our country? ISn't that why so many Bush supporters hate Clinton, because he was a real conservative?
It's gotta hurt when you're such a failure that even the people who propped you up for five years start calling you their enemy.
ReplyDeleteBut really, who's the idiot there?
I just think it's nice that everyone agrees he (George W. Bush) is a failure. Why not just stick with this label and ignore all the rest?
ReplyDelete"Free spirits, the ambitious, ex-socialists, drug users, and sexual eccentrics often find an attractive political philosophy in libertarianism, the idea that individual freedom should be the sole rule of ethics and government."
ReplyDeleteAnyone who reads Hayek knows that he was referring to all theories that postulate any single SOLE rule of ethics.
Problem is that this simply does NOT fit most libertarians apart from a few extremists. What DOES characterise many is a healthy respect for the fact that EVERY attempt to take away freedom masqurades as a measure 'necessary for the community' and that the worst mistake a community can make is to fail to examine every such claim with a critical eye.
As for the extremists - I usally remind them that the Free-Market is based on the assumption that you cannot simply kill your competetors - and that, in many environments, this is simply not a valid assumption. Why make a better product for less money when I can just cut your throat?
Way the heck up there, northerner cites some articles written in '04 and '05 to lend some credibility to the concept that acknowledgement and scepticism of "compassionate conservatism" goes waaayyy back. Jonah G. does the same in his retort to Mr. Greenwald, citing an '04 column he wrote. It's only May of '06 guys. The Shrub has been the Shrub, come hell or high water, (change is bad), since at least 1999 on the public stage. Compassionate conservatism has been a marketing tool to dull the edges of Atlas Shrugged Brand conservatism at least since then. So what's with getting all proud and huffy about stuff written in the last couple of years. So What. Who cares. Stick a feather in your cap and call it Buyers Remorse.
ReplyDeletenortherner:
ReplyDeleteAnyway, for the "indescribably cheap" remark from Glenn, see this post. He was reacting with such defensiveness because I pointed out the obvious fact that his "cult" theory had no empirical support whatsoever beyond a few stray quotes, only one of which was from anyone of national renown (Rush Limbaugh), and some of which were from anonymous emailers or bloggers.
Ummmm, still don't see what you see. Keep in mind that we can't usually see other people's hallucinations.
Looked to me like he just set you straight. Hard to call that "nervous" in my book. Sure you didn't imagine it?
Cheera,
Shooter never supplies links.
ReplyDeleteHere's why.
From the Ted Kennedy quote. First paragraph of speech given at
I'm honored to be here at the School of Advanced International Studies. Many of the most talented individuals in foreign policy have benefited immensely from your outstanding graduate program, and I welcome the opportunity to meet with you today.
I have come here today to express my view that America should not go to war against Iraq unless and until other reasonable alternatives are exhausted. But I begin with the strongest possible affirmation that good and decent people on all sides of this debate, who may in the end stand on opposing sides of this decision, are equally committed to our national security.
Let's look for Al Gore's, shall we?
See Snopes Words of Mass Destruction for the Dem quotes these tools will provide.
ReplyDeleteRuizWyran said... I lurk here and this is my second comment ever, but I can't help it
ReplyDelete(just this week, Forbes listed Castro as one of the world's wealthiest individuals, with personal wealth greater than the Queen of England (but he hates the U.S., so he's great).
Bwawahahahaa!
Dude, don't delurk. Get some help.
Forbes estimated the communist leader's net worth at $550 million, but acknowledged "these estimates are more art than science."
$550 mil is chump change, dude.
Ummmm, still don't see what you see. Keep in mind that we can't usually see other people's hallucinations.
ReplyDeleteLooked to me like he just set you straight. Hard to call that "nervous" in my book. Sure you didn't imagine it?
Arnie -- don't be a moron. Read the comments. Use your "control-F" function to find specific words.
Heck, I'll reprint the comments here for you. Watch how Glenn has no response other than vituperation.
I had said this:
After the post that first put Glenn on the map, he was asked for, you know, evidence that Bush supporters were in a blind cult that accused all critics of Bush of being "liberals." His response offered examples from the following:
1. One (1) quote from Rush Limbaugh labeling Olympia Snowe, McCain, and some other Republicans as "liberals."
2. One (1) Washington Post story describing how Ken Tomlinson measured the liberal bias on PBS, and in so doing classified two Bush critics (Hagel and Barr) as "liberal." (I think the point here was that if PBS features conservatives only when they criticize Bush, that in itself is an example of liberal bias.)
3. One (1) quote from Newsbusters labeling Arlen Specter as "liberal."
4. One (1) quote from the utterly obscure blogger "Rousseau" labeling Andrew Sullivan as a liberal.
5. One (1) post from John Podhoretz claiming that some unknown emailer, from somewhere in the United States, called him a "liberal" for being upset at the Cheney shooting incident.
So there you go: A grand total of five quotes, only one of which was from a name that the public would recognize (Limbaugh), and two of which were completely obscure (an anonymous emailer and an anonymous blogger).
These five quotes were meant to be the evidentiary support for Glenn's grand, sweeping generalization in the original post, to wit, that "[p]eople who self-identify as "conservatives" and have always been considered to be conservatives become liberal heathens the moment they dissent, even on the most non-ideological grounds, from a Bush decree."
Thus, Glenn is clearly dissimulating when he now claims that his generalizations are supported by "ample documentation," and by "abundant (and meaningful) examples" from "from influential and representative Bush followers rather than obscure and unrepresentative ones." That's simply false.
Glenn got owned, no two ways about it. He had tried to support a generalization by quotes from anonymous bloggers and emailers, and then turned right around and specifically denied that he ever did such a thing.
Here's his response:
This is false on many fronts. Leaving aside the fact that I had written many posts prior to the Bush cult post which were as linked to as the cult post was, the original post you are referring to contained ample evidence and support for the arguments that were made, most of which were ignored by the critics of the argument (almost all of whom opted -- and still opt -- for the indescribably cheap tactic of saying: "Hey, that guy over there once criticized Bush a few years ago for being a little too loose with domestic spending and he wasn't called a liberal, so your argument is disproven").
The subsequent post to which you are referring -- which contained examples of conservatives who were called "liberals" by virtue of critizing the Presidnet -- was written in response to a specific request by several people (such as Tom Maguire James Taranto) who asked for examples of conservatives who were called "liberals" as a result of criticizing the administration. When - in response to their request for such examples -- I provided five examples, including by and against some of the most influential conservatives in the country, the resopnse was: "Oh, look, he's providing individual EXAMPLES as though that proves the trend." They asked for examples; when I provided them, they claimed that examples prove nothing. It was a sad and dishonest tactic that I ignored.
As I said in this post, you can say what you want about generalizations genearlly, or the Bush cult post specifically - you can disagree with it all you want, claim it is unpersuasive, etc. But the original post is filled with links, examples, documentation and support for the argument (as is the follow-up post the next day), rendering patently false the claim that the argument was simply asserted without support.
Notice any evidence there? Notice any quotes from prominent people? Nope. Just unsubstantiated claims that the quotes are somewhere else. Anyway, read further down that comment page to find my response, where Glenn got owned again, due to the fact that his "original" post was even worse (not only did it rely mostly on unheard-of conservatives, it misquoted an Oliver North column).
Also note above that Glenn thinks it is "indescribably cheap" for people to point out that someone once criticized Bush. Sauce for the goose: It is also indescribably cheap for Glenn to support his grand theoryby referring to anonymous emailers or bloggers. And it is a flat-out lie for him then to claim that his generalizations are supported by "ample" citations of "prominent" people.
Part of this stems from the success of conservatives to turn "liberal" into a bad word but just as much from Democrats failure to make any like effort to turn "conservative" into something bad in the minds of the public.
ReplyDeleteEvery Democrat interviewed over the past five years should have prefaced their remarks by saying these are just more of Bush's "radical conservative" policies.
Somewhere along the way, liberals and conseratives got dismissed. The founders attended something when they came up with the term, but certainly not the namecalling it has become.
ReplyDeleteIn fact for the last couple of years, liberal got the same meaning as a@@@hole, s---head. It got so bad that Democratic challengers as John Kerry and Howard Dean shied away from the dreaded term, "liberal." (Kerry even use the word "conserative" in his 2004 presidential run.) Even conseratives as Pat Buchanan or Bob Barr (basically, the small majority who make up for Buchanan's mag The American Conserative or the even small 3rd party Constitution Party) who did hold Bush's feet to the fire early on, got dismissed by Goldberg and his ilk as "liberals." A couple of months ago, as Glenn pointed out, "conserative" meant agreeing with Bush. Now as Bush is on his way to becoming the most despised president since Nixon and the reality is that their movement has become a failure, he has to become a "liberal" too, which is nothing in the political sense, but just namecalling. "Liberal" is a dirty word. If Bush manages to turn "conserative" in a dirty word, don't be surprise to see future Dem leaders use the word "conserative" as a form of badmouthing like it has been with "liberals."
As for conserative/liberal policies concerning Bush, I am reminded of a book my economics professor wrote called "Pouring liberal wine into conserative bottles." Bascially, like liberals, he believes in a social safety net, but wants the funding to be conserative and cautious. Thus the liberal wine was money and conserative bottle was the structure of the funding. Bush, seems like the exact opposite of that idea. He wants to pour conserative wine into liberal bottles. Take, a conserative idea of reforming social secruity. Bush's way of doing it was costly, rather than reduce benefits or increase payroll tax, (which was the only way to get any effect of privatizing social security), he wanted to borrow more money which would lead us into higher deficits. Or the tax rate he intend to cut. It was supposed to be 33% instead of 35%. While part of it had to do with the Senate, the other reason was that $300 tax rebate he included, in which the goverment had to give to all US citizens cost the goverment so much money that the tax rate never got as low as Bush wanted. Point is, even if one agrees with Bush's tax cuts or Social Security ideas, even they weren't done properly. Bush ends up costing the taxpayers more money when he is just merely cutting taxes.
It should be said conseratives are not the only ones calling Nixon a liberal. Michael Moore and Ralph Nader have gone on record saying Nixon was the most liberal of the last seven presidents we had. Yet, down the road, I don't think we'll be hearing that Bush was the most liberal president we had in a while.
The main question seems to revolve around conflation of the philosophical definition of 'conservative' and 'liberal' vs the political use of those words to indicate in-group vs out-group status.
ReplyDeleteConservative, esp under Bush 2, has come to mean 'one of us', no matter what the person does in office, including things that are obviously not-conservative in the real meaning of the term.
Bush and his crew are opportunists, not real conservatives nor real liberals; not very real at all. There actual philosophy, if it exists, seems to have to do with greed, power and narrow-mindedness.
When the cons were riding high, he was one of them and could do no real wrong; the high popularity and the control of more and more of govt, meant that conservative philosophy was winning.
But it wasn't: bamboozlement was.
Now that the game is up, bamboozlement 2.0 will be deployed.
Nixon was not a liberal, he was a power-craving maniac.
He pandered to reactionary Southerners and liberal Northerners as needed.
The worst insult to supposedly true-blue philosophical conservatives is to expose them as craven politicians.
This is what has happened to Bush.
And his backers.
'Liberals' in today's world can't hope to claim not to be political animals, nor should they expect to win if they fail to perform well in that sphere.
The winning spin is about results, the common good, good governance, sanity, effectiveness.
Bush's failure to deliver on these scores is the real issue, left and right.
Sure, he's not conservative. I agree.
ReplyDeleteCalling Bush a "liberal" is *totally* dishonest though. He's never done a *single* liberal thing in his life. On personal freedom issues, on governance, on corporate oversight, on the environment, on labor, he's done the exact *opposite* of all traditional and modern liberal proposals. Even his big social programs (Medicare D) were especially designed to be done in the opposite way from the way any liberal would recommend.
What is he? He's the oppositie of liberal. (That's not conservative!)
He's a fascist. Everything he's done is perfectly in line with traditional fascist principles as outlined by Mussolini. :-P
The underlying issue is that conservatives don't have a coherent set of principles. The conservative philosophy can be stated simply as "I want what I want." If a politician promises to give an "adherent" what he or she wants -- economic advantage, enforcement of religious precepts, a feeling of safety -- the politician is a fellow conservative. If the politician stands counter to what the adherent wants or seems to be an impediment to its achievement, he or she is a liberal. If the politician cannot deliver what the conservative desires, the politician ceases to be a conservative. As it becomes more obvious that Bush cannot deliver on any conservative desires, he can in no way be considered a conservative and therefore must be a liberal.
ReplyDeleteIn today's polemic political climate, it is inevitable that future conservatives will use Bush as an example in the future to explain why liberals should not be in power. They will say "look what happened when a liberal, i.e., Bush, was in charge..." The "real" conservatives will spin anything in defense of their tribal identity in order to maintain ideological purity and avoid having to acknowledge that "converatism" did not work and is not a viable governing philosphy. Great post which builds on Digby's prophecy.
ReplyDeleteGolberg asks: "Was Nixon a liberal, or not?"
ReplyDeleteThe answer there would be "no". Passing environmental legislation no more made Nixon a liberal than eliminating welfare made Clinton a conservative. One way to answer the question would be: did liberals at the time think Nixon was a liberal?
Similarly, if GWB is in any way a liberal, then the fact that not a single self-described liberal in America sees him that way, or has anything but contempt for him, is pretty hard to explain.
northerner:
ReplyDeleteNotice any evidence there? Notice any quotes from prominent people?
Yep. And I'll note that Glenn made his case for what he did, and also stated that some may find his case "unpersuasive". But he's got five quotes there easy as pie, and now it's your job to explain why Rush Limbaugh, feted honoree of the Republican Congressional delegation, doesn't count as "evidence".
I'd say that as a matter of fact, one example is "evidence". Five is even better.
Look, make your case, but I would say that Glenn was pretty much on target. Feel free to disagree, but your vituperation is unconvincing.
Cheers,
Arnie -- one quote from Rush Limbaugh is NOT "ample documentation" or "abundant (and meaningful) examples," not by any stretch of the imagination. Try to get that through your head. Why do you think Glenn gets so touchy when anyone points this out?
ReplyDeleteThank you for your intriguing prose. As a conservative, I'm very alarmed by the big government indulgeces of this administration. Not since Harry Truman created the CIA in 1947 has the nation had such a blatant assult on it's fundamental constitutional liberties put in place. The fear is not what this administration will do, as they are an unoganized lot, the fear is what future administrations will do with the power now being created.
ReplyDeleteStopping this assult on our constitutional rights is a bi-partisan effort.
xxx
Tatum
www.ilovepopwhore.com
888 363 2555