Tuesday, May 02, 2006

Facts that reflect poorly on the President are false by definition

(updated below)

If you're one of the few loyal Bush defenders who are still around, and a fact is revealed which casts a very negative light on the administration, what do you do? Easy - shut your eyes really tightly, put your fingers in your ears, and just petulantly insist, based on nothing other than faith and desire, that it's not really true. Attack the motives and character of those involved. Threaten those responsible for disclosure of this damaging information with imprisonment. And then insist some more that it just can't be true.

MSNBC reporter David Schuster reported yesterday that at the time the Bush administration disclosed her employment with the CIA, Valerie Plame was working on a project "tracking the proliferation of nuclear weapons material into Iran." Schuster also reported that intelligence sources of his claimed that her disclosure forced her to cease this work and that it disrupted and harmed the efforts of the United States to obtain intelligence relating to Iran's weapons activities.

For obvious reasons, these facts, if true, reflect very poorly on the administration, particularly given its current claims that Iran is the new Nazi Germany, that it is the world's greatest threat to all that is Good, and that stopping Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons is the overarching national security priority. Outing a CIA agent working on precisely that problem, all in order to discredit a political critic, is extremely embarrassing, to put it mildly.

So, if you are a person who defends the administration no matter what, what is there to say about this? You begin by insisting that it's just not true -- it can't be -- and mix in those denials with some nice, distracting character smears. Jeff Goldstein, for instance, says that this MSNBC report is almost surely not true because, among other reasons, the Leader and his aides would never do something to harm the interests of the United States over something as insignificant as Joe Wilson:

Or, put another way, we’re being asked to believe unnamed sources when they tell us that the Bushies sabotaged their own stewardship over Iranian nuclear intelligence gathering initiatives because they feared impotent former diplomat Joe Wilson—who was eventually quite thoroughly discredited by the Senate Intelligence Committee Report and by his own tangle of public lies and half truths.

Which, I suppose that’s possible. But color me skeptical (emphasis in original).

Goldstein provides a whole host of reasons why it is just absurd to think that outing a CIA agent working on Iran's nuclear program could possibly have any negative impact on our intelligence capabilities. I mean, it's just one CIA agent - what's the big deal? Thus, to think that outing Plame impeded our efforts is to believe that "Valerie Plame, who was working as an analyst from a desk in Langley, had exclusive insights into Iran’s nuclear weapons program and is in fact some sort of irreplaceable James Bond-type super spy."

So, to recap: The President -- being The President -- would never do anything to harm the country's intelligence efforts, particularly over something like this, so this just can't be true. And even if it is true, it's only one little CIA agent they outed, so how bad could that be? And oh, Joe Wilson is a liar, so that should be considered, too.

Taking a different approach, Bush defender AJ Strata is angry that Americans even learned about this information:

You would think the CIA insiders would know better than to leak more national security information to the media.

Maybe those responsible for informing Americans about this treachery by the Government can share a cell with the reporters who informed Americans about the Government's illegal eavesdropping program. Like Goldstein, Strata can't believe that everyone would make such a fuss over one single little CIA agent:

What a joke! Valerie was the only analyst who cold track Iran’s ambitions? This is the reason I think this was a canary trap. Only a reporter would be so naive and gullible at the same time! Or are the VIPerS this dumb? Someone tell me this is just a joke and these people are not this stupid.

And with his characteristically substantive commentary, Tom Maguire insists that the whole thing just can't be true -- it just can't be -- because the reporter, Shuster, is a "lying weasel" and "an ignorant clown." And besides, those Guardians of the Truth, Andrea Mitchell and Bob Woodward, previously decreed that there was no national security harm as a result of the Plame leak, so this whole thing is already settled.

All of this reality-denying rationale was spat out literally within hours of the disclosure that Plame was working on Iran's nuclear program when she was outed by the administration. It is a frenzied effort to defend the administration that is composed every standard weapon in the Bush apologist arsenal -- attacks on the motives of those who disclose the information, threats of criminal prosecution against those responsible, an insistence that the Leader's Goodness precludes the truth of the accusations, and when all else fails, a simple fact-free refusal to believe that it's true. There's not yet any coordination or coherence to it because it's driven by emotional instinct - the instinct to simply deny any fact that undermines the pro-Bush world-view. It's just an undifferentiated outburst of denial and attack, all fueled by the overarching desire to defend the President.

I recently documented how this self-justifying, fantasyland mindset is constant and applicable to every issue. Insurgency in Iraq? Can't be; it just doesn't exist. Reports of civil war? Not true - the media is just biased and dishonest. Poll after poll showing the President is reaching historic levels of unpopularity? The polls are just biased and corrupt because the President is really beloved. Secret torture gulags in Eastern Europe? They don't exist either - that was all just a masterful set-up to find the CIA leakers (a fantasy in which Strata indulges for the Plame disclosure, too: "I think this was a canary trap"). The CIA agent outed by the administration was working on Iran's nuclear program? False - the reporter is an idiot, her husband is a liar, it's just one CIA agent, and the President is too good and smart to do that, no matter what facts emerge.

The denial is so steadfast, immediate and shrill because the notion that perhaps it's true never occurs to them. They begin with the premise that any fact that reflects poorly on the Leader is false, and then set out in search for rationale to prove that. When the NSA scandal first emerged, scores of Bush defenders became instantaneous, overnight experts on FISA, and, within hours, wrote post after post insisting that the President's NSA program didn't violate the law, FISA doesn't cover this type of eavesdropping, the law doesn't really require warrants, that it doesn't apply to terrorism, FISA has nothing to do with the NSA program -- all rank nonsense which even the administration refused to get anywhere near, and even eventually repudiated. But Bush defenders then were in the same frenzied mode. A fact had emerged that reflected poorly on the President -- that the President had ordered eavesdropping in violation of the law -- and denial of that fact was the only option. The mission, therefore, was to find the rationale would best support that denial.

I honestly don't know how much impact the disclosure of Plame's CIA employment had on our intelligence efforts, if any. And neither do Bush defenders. But they don't care if it did or didn't. They only care about defending the President no matter the seriousness of his wrongdoing or the obviousness of his errors, and if the only way to do that is to simply refuse to believe facts that contradict that goal, then so be it. The most glaring and destructive by-product of that reality-denying syndrome is the disaster in Iraq, but it is by no means the only one. It repeats itself over and over in almost every issue of controversy.

UPDATE: Raw Story, who (as unmentioned by MSNBC) was the first to report the Plame-Iran connection back in February, has posted an update regarding some additional information reported by Shuster, including a claim that Cheney was aware at the time of the Plame disclosure that she was working on sensitive intelligence matters.

175 comments:

  1. Anonymous11:10 AM

    In the long run, reality always wins.

    Always.

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  2. Anonymous11:19 AM

    Goldstein's deductive reasoning is quite flawed. For example, he finds it hard to believe...

    that Valerie Plame, who was working as an analyst from a desk in Langley, had exclusive insights into Iran’s nuclear weapons program...

    Why is this hard to believe? In any organization, there are people who become specialists in very specific areas of expertise. And this is her area of expertise. And why is it necessary to believe that there are redundant sources of the same information or multiple people with the same expertise?

    And why does working at a desk at CIA headquarters somehow diminish her role? Is it the straw man (or woman) analogy to James Bond?

    His post reads exactly as you'd expect if he already determined his conclusion and had to work backwards to justify it.

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  3. Schuster reported yesterday that Plame was working on a project "tracking the proliferation of nuclear material into Iran?"
    Little slow on the uptake, eh? This fact has been known in the blogosphere for some months.Raw Story had it first

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  4. This comment on Jeff’s site pretty much sums it up:

    Shorter Jeff Goldstein:

    Even if Plame was working on Iran-related issues, the leak was still OK because (a) the CIA has more than one person working on Iran, and (b) Plame wasn’t James Bond, anyway. Secondly, this story is just as likely a result of an elaborate sting operation to catch rogue Democrats in the CIA—or, if it’s not, it’s probably just those same rogue Democrats leaking in the vain hope that they can take the focus off of the burgeoning McCarthy scandal, which implicates half of Democratic Washington in a plot to undermine the foreign policy of a democratically elected administration and is sure to be the silver bullet which saves the Republican majorities this fall.

    Furthermore, we can’t trust these anonymous sources, because that would require believing that the Bushes burned someone important to analyzing intelligence re Iran just to fend off Wilson’s charges—even though there is plenty of credible reporting indicating that (a) Wilson’s charges were viewed as a plausible threat to the President’s reelection; (b) the White House Iraq Group initiated a concerted action to discredit Wilson in the press; (c) and both Rove and Libby have testified that they didn’t know about Plame’s classified status or what job she performed within the CIA. So, yeah, it’s totally far-fetched that they would have burned Ms. Plame if she were actually working on Iran-related intelligence.

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  5. Glenn,

    I think you describe well the AJ Stratas and Jeff Goldsteins of the world, but I wouldn't lump Tom Maguire into that category. Based on my own experiences interacting with him on this particular subject (Plamegate), I've found him to be quite reasonable and I think he tries hard to stick to the known facts and report even the ones that are damning to his side. His reasons for being skeptical of Shuster's report aren't the same as the others; they're not reflexive.

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  6. Little slow on the uptake, eh? This fact has been known in the blogosphere for some months.Raw Story had it first.

    There are lots of things that get said on the Internet. Matt Drudge says a lot of things. We all can decide for ourselves which sources we think are sufficiently credible to rely upon. Regardless of what else is true, there is a significant difference in impact between something being reported by Raw Story and something being reported by MSNBC.

    AL SAID: His reasons for being skeptical of Shuster's report aren't the same as the others; they're not reflexive.

    I don't agree. To me, he is a lot like Glenn Reynolds (who, unsurprisingly, has a great affinity for the way Maguire posts). They try very hard to work behind a veneer of passive-aggressive reasonableness, but it only masks, not alters, the irrationality.

    What facts did Maguire offer to support his belief that this story is untrue, other than (a) Shuster is an idiot and liar and (b) Woodward and Mitchell (whose credibility he has questioned before when it suited him) said it wasn't true?

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  7. Brewster Jennings, the cover company with its additional employees, contracts and network that we're told took over 10 years to knit together was dismantled by Plame's outting. Strata omits that detail and it is important because the complexities of these networks and the inroads that were in place cannot be recreated like ordering another box of cereal for breakfast. Intelligence communities for all their courage are also fragile and mortal.

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  8. Anonymous11:37 AM

    Devastating analysis, as always.

    What concerns me is how in the world a democracy based on an informed citizenry (as the Founders envisioned) can possibly continue in the future with such an extraordinary percentage of reality deniers in our midst.

    The Bushi Movement has created an enormous segment of deluded dead-enders, whose bitterness and inability to accept the abject failure of their corrupt, abusive leader, party and cause will haunt us for a very long time and probably change the very nature of our republic.

    Indeed, neither they nor their "methods" have been defeated!

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  9. At the risk of giving a complete bozo hits he doesn't deserve (and don't -- I repeat, DON'T go visit if you are concerned about that ... or have a weak stomach) I tender misamatic efflux, spelling errors, gawdawful graphics and all.... There you'll see in all its glory exactly what Glenn has been describing for the Cult'O'Bush.

    Cheers,

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  10. "miasmatic". Need coffee. ;-)

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  11. Glen,, excellent post. The comments have been great too. While I wake in Javaland, perhaps you and the readers here might appreciate this piece of artistic truth depicting the Great Decider--hilarious yet strangely (to me at least) horrifying at the same time.

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  12. Anonymous11:59 AM

    This is an interesting drama.

    On one side we have a story reported (not for the first time) asserting that Valerie Plame was doing useful, even important work relating to Iran and weapons of mass destruction. On the other we have apparently frantic defenders of the administration attempting to call the story into question not by refuting the assertions but rather by declaring them impossible on the basis of assumptions regarding how things "work" in an administration that screws up everything it touches.

    I find it disingenuous that the administration's defenders refuse to recognize the likelihood that Plame was doing valuable, secret work as a longtime employee of the CIA. I find it disingenuous to pretend that the administration doesn't have access to very solid information on the damage wrought by outing Plame and putting her and her associates out of business. If the administration is not seeking that information, it is just another dereliction to add to the list. If it has the information and it is not sharing it with its friends, perhaps they should reevaluate the relationship.

    It is reasonable to suspect that the people telling the truth are the ones who are trying the hardest: those willing to question the serial lies (starting in Bush's first presidential campaign) cranked out by the administation regarding its motives, its plans, and its actions. Either the administation has taken its defenders into its confidence and they are lying, or it has withheld the truth about itself and let them howl misinformation, resentment, and frustration until they are exhausted and thoroughly discredited.

    Just keep taking notes, everybody.

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  13. It starts at the top.

    In James Risen's State of War, he notes that when a CIA agent in Iraq sent a report to Washington in 2003 that concluded that the US was losing control and an insurgency would soon grow significantly, the White House's response was to ask whether the agent was a Democrat or Republican and that the agent was removed from his position, despite, of course, turning out to have been correct in his analysis. Risen states that the WH treated negative reports as if they were partisan political attacks, regardless of whether or not they were true.

    The consequences this type of atmosphere has for the governance of the country are, to put it midly, negative. For example, earlier in State of War, Risen also writes about a pre-invasion CIA program to send family members of Iraqi nuclear agents into Iraq to question the agents about the state of Iraq's nuclear program. The CIA sent 30 family members: all 30 members came back and reported that there was no nuclear program. This information did not get passed on to anyone outside the agency, though, because the CIA had been looking for evidence of WMD's and felt that the White House did not want to be presented with contrary evidence, according to Risen.

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  14. The premise many operate with, and not just out and out apologists, is that Bush and his administration are genuine in their efforts to protect Americans from terrorism.

    They arent, in fact they pursue policies that undermine our security. They use tactics that undermine our security. It takes and unbelievable level of willful blindness to miss this and the relevant evidence.

    A number of Congressional panels and independant think tanks have given the president failing to barely passing grades on report card reports with respect to national security.

    A Congressional inquiry found that FEMA and the President's response were curiously "disengaged."

    Intelligence analysts from all over the world, including the CIA and Mossad, have pointed out how disasterous our foreign policy has been with respect to terrorism - specifically in Iraq.

    I am being brief here, and if interested it wouldnt be hard to find what I am talking about via Google. The point is that there is a mountain of evidence showing that what we think of as national security has very little influence on foreign policy. It has a lot of influence on rhetoric because they recognize its importance on domestic opinion, but very little on actual policy considerations. Secrets and classifications are mostly to protect power, not national security.

    This is just another example of that trend. They outed an agent working on Iranian nuclear programs for political power.

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  15. Anonymous12:06 PM

    Goldstein says that he's skeptical, but not willing to dismiss it entirely. He needs to know more.

    And so would I. There's nothing "in denial" about suspending judgment until all the facts are in.

    Bill
    industrialblog.powerblogs.com

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  16. Anonymous12:08 PM

    The willingness to deny any reality which threatens the belief-set of the committed is behavior characteristic of a cult or other similarly ideologically defined and driven group. Stalinism comes to mind. (That also came to mind watching the nervous reactions of most at Steven Colbert's performance--no one dared laugh for fear of incurring the wrath of Dear Leader.)It's also something not unlike the behavior of an alcoholic or other addicted personality.

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  17. Anonymous12:09 PM

    The Psychotic Patriot blogged this story in February, when Juan Cole did, and it's good to see it percolate into the MSM and back in to the blogosphere again. Obviously Cheney's gang was planning Iran, not Iraq.

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  18. As a followup to my comment, I dont mean to suggest that they intentionally undermine national security. I think they pursue other interests and mask them as national security. For example, Iraq. Ostensibly about disarming a country that was going to arm terrorists or fly unmanned vehicles into our country and deliver a chemical weapon payload. I would argue that it is really about maintaining access and control to oil and staking a reliable military outpose in a region vital to our economic and political interests. In the process they have made us more succeptible to terrorist attacks in the future, but that obviously was not a goal.

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  19. Mainsailset:

    Brewster Jennings, the cover company with its additional employees, contracts and network that we're told took over 10 years to knit together was dismantled by Plame's outting. Strata omits that detail and it is important because the complexities of these networks and the inroads that were in place cannot be recreated like ordering another box of cereal for breakfast. Intelligence communities for all their courage are also fragile and mortal.

    Add to that the reporting of such as James Risen and James Bamford in their recent books about the horrible state of HUMINT in recent years. One of the reasons for the fact the CIA couldn't out-and-out check out and refute the Dubya maladministration propaganda about Iraqi WoMD is that they were effectively blind, having (IIRC) not a single agent on the ground in Iraq (and IIRC, Risen also mentions that the U.S. managed to flub the Iran intelligence operations and get their agents and/or contacts there all compromised or even arrested with one SNAFU). In a situation like this, losing just one more agent is a substantial loss....

    Cheers,

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  20. Anonymous12:20 PM

    "Just one analyst"--the whole Brewster-Jennings network was rolled up. I'm sorry, did I miss something?

    "Only someone as small as Wilson"--This wasn't revenge, it was witness intimidation.
    Wilson was pulling the mask off the fact that they lied us into a war. What could be a bigger reason to go after someone?

    Factually, one should probably remain open at this point to the possibility that the Brewster-Jennings was not the only or even primary operation against the Iranian nuclear program (how could any of us know?). But that is irrelevant. You come to precisely the same conclusion about the administration regardless.

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  21. Over at No More Mr Nice Blog the blogger, Steve, has a nice post up about what happens when you spend all your time demonizing washington and the government (as the right has for decades). You get a populace that probably thinks its not worth saving. He said this in the context of people watching (or not watching) the new movie about flight 93. But I think it applies even more strongly in the case of right wing defenders of bush in the matter of the outing of VAlerie Plame. His followers are having a hard time both swallowing the White House line that the CIA are democratic/pacifistic/incompetent/anti war/anti bush partisans who should be attacked and destroyed

    and also following a party line that says that the CIA is the holder of state secrets and should be protected from investigation or exposure because their work is so important, valuable,and necessary to the state (ie BUsh).

    This, it seems to me, is also at the root of some of the anti-Plame hysteria. They are havinga hard time having it both ways: if the CIA is out to get bush then of course Rove is justified in burning Plame (anyway what does a desk dame know about anything). On the other hand, why call for the investigation and imprisonment of reporters for reporting on any of this if the CIA is useless and those prisons where they have been torturing people presumably doing the US no good at all.

    It makes my head hurt just to think of the confused and pathetic world of these right wing posters.

    But I'd also like to agree with the third comment on this thread, Paul Rosenberg's, when he said that the real basis of the anger and name calling on the right s the fear, the barely suppressed hysteria, that in fact everything they've been told and everything they are repeating is a lie and that they are going to be the last to admit it. And of course, that is the case. They will be defending a position and a set of facts that bush et al abandon long, long, after the rest of the world has acknowledged it. THey aren't called flat earthers for nothing.

    aimai

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  22. Glenn, As I have previously noted this behaviour of the ardent Bush supporters is just like members of any religious cult. The psychological ability to divorce onesself from objective facts and reality parallel cult members. There is no use talking to them because they have a filter which cant be turned off.I base this observation upon the information I received while taking a cult course in seminary.

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  23. bithead:

    You're still ticked 'cause you got banned for being a total idiot?

    I get banned because you, like the other RW foamers, look like gibbering baboons when someone cuts your pieces to shreds, so you do the favourite thing for a brown-shirt wannabee and "Censor! Censor! Censor!"

    But glad to see that you admit it, so recently after Gleen here has said that he won't even go after the useless trolls at the cost of free and open discussion.

    IC that I'm still banned at your site. Heil Hitler!

    Eat that, Bithead.

    Everyone else: Don't bother with Eric Florack ("Bithead") here other than go take a peek and laugh at him. He'd just take hit counts as encouragement.

    Cheers,

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  24. >The denial is so immediate and shrill precisely because the notion that it's true--that it's all true, all the horrible things that Bush has done--haunts them constantly.<

    I try to stay away from those sites for fear I might catch a shrapnel wound once heads start exploding.

    There's no doubt in my mind that the shrillness of the arguments are being driven by cognitive dissonance.

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  25. Anonymous12:31 PM

    Bush defenders have reduced themselves to the level of children who stick their fingers in their ears and go lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala so they can't hear what is being said.

    I do like the heading but can this heading be transferred to any other president? I think not and I hope not. I think that now (and hopefully not into the future) it applies to Bush and only Bush. If a republican during Clinton's term wrote this it would say:
    Facts that reflect poorly on the President are true by definition

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  26. Anonymous12:42 PM

    Arne L writes: Eat that, Bithead.

    Everyone else: Don't bother with Eric Florack ("Bithead") here other than go take a peek and laugh at him. He'd just take hit counts as encouragement.


    Just as a general point of information: "Bithead" is, as far as I know, the only commenter the laissez-faire Jon Henke at QandO has ever banned. Henke is less reflexively anti-Bush than many here, and far more inclined to see some merit in ideas considered "right-wing," than is the vast bulk of the readers here. But Bithead's mindless pro-Bush crap got on Henke's last nerve.

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  27. The odd thing about this Plame-outing story is that it came out over 70 days ago in RawStory and The Washington Note. At the time, I went out on a limb and suggested that the Plame outing was associated in some way with the Larry Franklin/AIPAC scandal of funneling US secrets to Israel.

    I posted my question/speculation at The Washington Note--hoping perhaps some push back that showed it to be paranoid delusion. Now, you have to realize that The Washington Note is written by Steve Clemons, whom some people call a super-uber journalist with contacts high up in the insider circles of the intelligence and beltway community. So to receive the response I did to my speculation was somewhat surprising.

    You can read my own reaction to the response and the responder at my blog. Better yet, you can read the responses in the comments section at Clemons' blog.

    The comment directly related to my suspsicions runs in part:

    If Valerie Plame and her office was working primarily on detecting Iran WMD issues at the time she was outed in July 2003, there doesn't seem to have been dramatic developments to study, as the Iranian program hadn't amounted to much, and was by all responsible accounts a decade away from any sort of building an actual bomb. Likely, that's exactly what she was reporting to her superiors -- which wasn't what the White House wanted to hear.

    At the same time that the Niger yellowcake forgery was making its way to the Oval Office, Larry Franklin's contacts at the Israeli Embassy was making "suggestions" for changes to Pentagon documents about the Iranian WMD program. Some of this information made its way into reports that Franklin, the DoD Iran desk officer, prepared for his superiors. Franklin also travelled to Rome with an OSP coleague in December 2001, where he met with Manoucher Ghorbanifar and Mike Ledeen. This group has been linked to the network that introduced the Niger Yellowcake forgery into US files.

    Franklin's primary contact at the Israeli Embassy "FO-3" in the indictment, was Naor Gilon, the Mossad Chief of Station, who fled DC when the FBI investigation was leaked. See, Lawrence Franklin Indictment, pp. 23-34, para. 6.

    I would suggest that the the Niger yellowcake forgery was Track 1 of a disinformation program to justify U.S. military action against Iraq. Furthermore, much of allegations about Iranian WMDs, such as the August 2002 opposition group disclosures, are Track 2 of the same operation to draw the US into a widening general war in the Middle East. Same M.O. and group of perpetrators behind both deadly deception campaigns.

    Posted by leveymg at February 13, 2006 05:26 PM


    This story has some legs to it which the MSM should be out there investigating before the poop hits the fan in Iran.

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  28. Anonymous12:46 PM

    Glenn Greenwald said... There are lots of things that get said on the Internet. Matt Drudge says a lot of things. We all can decide for ourselves which sources we think are sufficiently credible to rely upon. Regardless of what else is true, there is a significant difference in impact between something being reported by Raw Story and something being reported by MSNBC.

    In Glenn's defense it should be noted that Raw Story has had a few problems in it's brief history. That being said, this story has been floating about for awhile, like many others that the "liberal media" neglects to cover, until forced to by the blogosphere, and Raw Story didn't lead us down the road to war, like the NYTimes, the WaPo, and just about everybody else. Perhaps when Glenn finally has some time to read instead of write, he can sample some of the fine books that have recently been published about the MSM. We don't want him to stop writing, but we don't want him to rely to heavily on MSNBC or the MSM for his news, either. I'm sure many of us could make suggestions. Boehlert's Lapdogs is the most recent.

    John Cole update takes Tom Maguire to task.


    This is a passage I may refer again and again. When I see this, and i see it alot, it scream, "Cult!"

    Glenn Greenwald: They only care about defending the President no matter the seriousness of his wrongdoing or the obviousness of his errors, and if the only way to do that is to simply refuse to believe facts that contradict that goal, then so be it. The most glaring and destructive by-product of that reality-denying syndrome is the disaster in Iraq, but it is by no means the only one. It repeats itself over and over in almost every issue of controversy.

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  29. Anonymous12:46 PM

    Proving anybody's motives for anything is always tricky. But I think that the possibility raised by Justin Raimondo at antiwar.com is quite plausible: that the Wargasm Party was not after Wilson but was actually after Plame and Brewster Jennings. Why? Because their intelligence on Iran's nuclear program would disprove the Wargasm Party's story that Iran is going to nuke us any second now. Gotta keep those darn facts out of the debate!

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  30. druidbros:
    Glenn, As I have previously noted this behaviour of the ardent Bush supporters is just like members of any religious cult. The psychological ability to divorce onesself from objective facts and reality parallel cult members. There is no use talking to them because they have a filter which cant be turned off.

    Well this particular cult runs all three branches of government. Media distributes their talking points uncritically. I wish we could "stop talking to them" and have the problems go away, but we can't. They have to be confronted, at every turn, until this artificially constructed world-view is thoroughly discredited. Which is exactly what Glenn is doing.

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  31. Hypatia:

    Just as a general point of information: "Bithead" is, as far as I know, the only commenter the laissez-faire Jon Henke at QandO has ever banned. Henke is less reflexively anti-Bush than many here, and far more inclined to see some merit in ideas considered "right-wing," than is the vast bulk of the readers here. But Bithead's mindless pro-Bush crap got on Henke's last nerve.

    LOL. Thanks for that tidbit. So "Bithead" got bannned himself? And on a conservative (actually, to be fair, I think you're saying more libertarian) site. That's too funny when he brags about banning me....

    But: "Know your enemy...." We have to at least acknowledge the pathology of the Dubya supporters to effectively counter it.

    Cheers,

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  32. That last sentence of my comment should read: "Before the nuclear poop hits the fan in Iran."

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  33. Anonymous1:02 PM

    Justin said... In the process they have made us more succeptible to terrorist attacks in the future, but that obviously was not a goal.

    On what basis do you make that assumption? I'm not suggesting it was/is, or that we will likely ever have definitive proof one way or the other, but I wouldn't make assumptions about this bunch, other than:

    1. They would do anything, and I mean anything, to achieve and maintain power and control of our government.

    And 2. They are grossly incompetent when it comes to achieving any other goals besides those in #1 above.

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  34. So when do we see the leftists admitting that their knees are jerking... "If Bush says it, it must be a lie".

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  35. That being said, this story has been floating about for awhile, like many others that the "liberal media" neglects to cover, until forced to by the blogosphere, and Raw Story didn't lead us down the road to war, like the NYTimes, the WaPo, and just about everybody else.

    Let me emphasize this again. I have no position on whether or not Shuster's story is true - particularly the part about the disclosure of Plame's identity harming our intelligence gathering efforts. I am not assuming that the Shuster story is true or false because I don't know. I'm not going to assume it's true just because its being true would politically harm the administration.

    But what I do know is that I have seen Raw Story report many, many items which turned out to be false and/or which should not have been reported. I beleive they now acknowledge this themselves. As a result, I do not consider them a reliable news source and would not assume that things that were reported only there are true.

    To me, the willingness to believe things simply because they bolster your political aims is no more noble - or intellectually honest - than the refusal to believe things because they undermine those aims.

    My post isn't about whether Valerie Plame worked on Iran or whether there was national security impact from this disclosure. It was about how Bush supporters automatically deny all facts which reflect poorly on the President.

    Perhaps when Glenn finally has some time to read instead of write, he can sample some of the fine books that have recently been published about the MSM. We don't want him to stop writing, but we don't want him to rely to heavily on MSNBC or the MSM for his news, either.

    As I said, if - as appears to be the case - you are under the impression that I am assuming this Plame story to be true becasue MSNBC reported it, then you should read the post again, because it actually does not hint, suggest or imply any of that in any way.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Anonymous1:06 PM

    Glenn, as usual is on target with one exception. Remeber BNovak outed Brewster Jennings a week or so after outing Plame. So, even if it were only one agent (bad enough) the subsequent outing of B-J allowed our enemies then and now to connect a whole lot more dots and that would have finished the network now and in the future. I wouldn't work for someone that has done this act before, nor would I expect someone in Iran to dothe same.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Glenn, ever done any appellate work?

    I'm not sure if I understand the point of your question (and the answer, by the way, is "yes - lots of it"), but if you are suggesting that appellate lawyers do what I describe in this post - namely, disregard facts which undermine their case and embrace facts which support it - I wouldn't disagree at all. That's what advocates are supposed to do - be biased and devoted to a particular viewpoint, rather than the truth.

    That's exactly what citizens should not do, especially those who are publicly opining. Comparing Bush defenders to lawyers defending a client is a good analogy - they are interested in defending their client no matter what, not in the truth.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Anonymous1:11 PM

    So when do we see the leftists admitting that their knees are jerking... "If Bush says it, it must be a lie".

    Bithead doesn't seem to be unusual for Bush lickers. In fact, he's not that annoying because his posts are so empty.

    What makes his contributions so uniquely disgusting and vile is THAT PICTURE. PLEASE, I beg of you, in the name of that which is merciful, delete that thing. I cannot bear to see it everytime he utters some thought.

    And Glenn - I know you are against deletions, but you must consider public safety and the health of your readers. We should not have to be subejcted to a picture of some horrible man that is burdened with masculinity issues and so covers his face with a graying beard. I am going to puke.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Anonymous1:13 PM

    So when do we see the leftists admitting that their knees are jerking... "If Bush says it, it must be a lie".

    Actually because of the objective empirical data available from the recent past, it is very reasonable to assume that "If Bush says it, it must be a lie".

    Go read any book on probability and statistical estimation.

    ReplyDelete
  40. The Right knows they are lying/manipulating the facts to fit their story. Think of the Xtian witnesses in the PA intelligent design case who lied through their teeth on the stand. They serve a higher purpose, God'slaw, ergo they are allowed to break minor laws in pursuit of higher truths.

    Slavoj Zizek (a psychoanalyst) has done some decent analysis of the post-modern fascist mentality that the Bushites and liberal Communists exhibit:

    Obedience to the master [Bush, the gof-man] allows you to transgress everyday moral rules: all the dirty things you were dreaming of, everything you had to renounce when you subordinated yourself to the traditional, patriarchal, symbolic Law you are now allowed to indulge in without punishment, just as you may eat fat-free salami without any risk to your health.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Glenn:

    Outing a CIA agent working on precisely that problem, all in order to discredit a political critic, is extremely embarrassing, to put it mildly.

    I agree. However, what does this statement have to do with the Plame matter. Reporters were calling the Administration (not the other way around) about Plame's role in sending her hubby to Niger before Wilson published his NYT Op Ed lying about what he was told in Niger. It is temporally impossible for the WH to be taking revenge for an act which had not yet occurred.

    MSNBC reporter David Schuster reported yesterday that at the time the Bush administration disclosed her employment with the CIA, Valerie Plame was working on a project "tracking the proliferation of nuclear weapons material into Iran."

    OK, let's assume this leak is true. Nothing else about the Plame case has been true, but let's assume for laughs and giggles that this leak is the first true allegation.

    It has to be embarrassing to say the least when unidentified CIA sources are blowing the cover off Plame's alleged work on Iran in order to shore up a false story about the WH taking revenge on Plame to get even with Wilson.

    BTW, the unidentified CIA sources and this reporter are all committing a felony violation of multiple classified materials statutes. While it appears that it was publicly known that Plame worked for the CIA, the fact that she was allegedly working on Iran's nuclear program is not publicly known.

    Schuster also reported that intelligence sources of his claimed that her disclosure forced her to cease this work and that it disrupted and harmed the efforts of the United States to obtain intelligence relating to Iran's weapons activities.

    This is crap. Why could Plame not work as an analyst on Iran's nuclear program? She is not running agents in Iran according to this article.

    For obvious reasons, these facts, if true, reflect very poorly on the administration, particularly given its current claims that Iran is the new Nazi Germany, that it is the world's greatest threat to all that is Good, and that stopping Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons is the overarching national security priority.

    You think that just might be the intent behind this illegal disclosure? You would have to be a credulous fool not to see this.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Anonymous1:27 PM

    Bithead said: So when do we see the leftists admitting that their knees are jerking... "If Bush says it, it must be a lie".

    That's certainly true in some cases. I would add that the "well the other kids are doing it too" defense is a fairly limp defense.

    This points to a larger problem with our current political system: the president has been elevated to the level of a Great White Father. The office has far too much power (well past what the Constitution establishes) and the person of the president is either venerated as a god or hated as a devil.

    Cripes, people, he's just a stinking politician. So pretty much everything he says is a damn lie, just like his predecessor and just like his successor.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous1:28 PM

    It's all about the bubble. That's why Colbert is important.

    ReplyDelete
  44. >To me, the willingness to believe things simply because they bolster your political aims is no more noble - or intellectually honest - than the refusal to believe things because they undermine those aims.<

    Which is of course why we proudly refer to ourselves as the reality -based community.

    The problem with the war cheerleaders (I refuse to call them right-wingers) is that they've painted themselves into a corner. Its amazing how much maneuvering room they could buy themselves if they were willing at any point to say, "I was mistaken".

    ReplyDelete
  45. Anonymous1:30 PM

    I am not sure if Ockham's razor applies, but Valerie Plame was CIA. She was the NOC. She was covert.
    To expose her is a crime.

    ReplyDelete
  46. PhD9 said...

    Which is of course why we proudly refer to ourselves as the reality -based community.

    :::chuckle:::

    1) The misnomer "reality based community" was a self identifier for secularists who opposed the "faith based community."

    2) It is interesting that you would invoke that misnomer while defending the fabricated story of the WH revenging themselves against Plame for the Op Ed lies of Wilson.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Glenn:

    [I]f you are suggesting that appellate lawyers do what I describe in this post - namely, disregard facts which undermine their case and embrace facts which support it - I wouldn't disagree at all. That's what advocates are supposed to do - be biased and devoted to a particular viewpoint, rather than the truth.

    Yeah, they're supposed to "zealously" represent their client, and if there's any effective legal defence or argument that can be put forward towards that end, they should use it (concomitant with the requirement that briefs and arguments be effective and not grand expositions on law from Hammurabi to the 21st century). This annoys some people (the "arguing in the alternative", where you can have defences like "I wasn't there, and even if I was there, I didn't have a gun, and even if I had a gun, I didn't pull the trigger...").

    But that doesn't mean "buying in" to whatever your client tells you. SOmetimes you want to know all the facts as your client sees them ... and sometimes (for various reasons not worth discussing here), you don't want to know. But as a general rule, you should, as a lawyer, try and find out as much about the case as possible, and the arguments from both sides, so that you can rationally plan your best legal arguments or defences. That's what discovery is all about. And you want to read the briefs of the other side, acknowledge (and hopefully counter) their best arguments, and be ready to try a case that has a lawyer trying just as hard n teh other side to make his or her best case.

    Which requires an open mind. Ignoring facts is a recipe for disaster, embarrassment, or even disbarment.

    And I think that Glenn woudl agree with me on that.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  48. Glenn:

    Comparing Bush defenders to lawyers defending a client is a good analogy - they are interested in defending their client no matter what, not in the truth.

    Believing in your "cause" is not sufficient. It's not you that will decide the case; regardless of your "zealousness" and fervour, it's the judge in the end that will make the actual decision.

    Admittedly, if you believe your cause (or manage to convince others of that), the judges (humans as well) are more likely to buy it. FWIW, I had one moot court judge come up to me afterwards while I was arguing the Adarand side of Adarand v. Pena and ask, "Is that the side you really support?" That's the way it should be (for a lawyer). The reason for her question was probably related to her other comment; she told me that I should lose the pony-tail..... Maybe one of the reasons (but not the prime one) IANAL. ;-)

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anonymous1:44 PM

    Even here, many are not ready to talk about the very real, documentable, sinister connections between the chimperor's family and some of the most terrible events of the previous 100 or so years.

    The Bush/Nazi connection is a great example -- chimpy and his enablers are not incompetent, they have pulled off one of the greatest coups in all of history.

    http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

    ReplyDelete
  50. diane d.:

    And Glenn - I know you are against deletions, but you must consider public safety and the health of your readers. We should not have to be subejcted to a picture of some horrible man that is burdened with masculinity issues and so covers his face with a graying beard. I am going to puke.

    Good thing my mug isn't up there, eh? My fiancee has similar opinions of the fuzz, too (but I did shave it all for her once).

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous1:49 PM

    Glenn: As I said, if - as appears to be the case - you are under the impression that I am assuming this Plame story to be true becasue MSNBC reported it, then you should read the post again, because it actually does not hint, suggest or imply any of that in any way.

    I was actually reinforcing a comment made on a recent previous thread in response to a post you made about the MSM and the blogosphere discusssing. You were syaing how you turned to blogs for analysis and didn't think blogs would replace the MSM. Agreed. Rather than look for it, let me just say that one of the reasons we are here discussing these issues is the fact that we have both. The blogosphere can act as a lens to focus the press, who function largely as gatherers of facts and data. This is one of the things you do well. Focus. This is excerpted from the article that was linked to in the comment you probably didn't see because it came at the end of the thread.


    30-year Anniversary: Tonkin Gulf Lie Launched Vietnam War

    Jeff Cohen and Norman Solomon
    (7/27/94)

    ...Daniel Hallin's classic book The "Uncensored War" observes that journalists had "a great deal of information available which contradicted the official account [of Tonkin Gulf events]; it simply wasn't used. The day before the first incident, Hanoi had protested the attacks on its territory by Laotian aircraft and South Vietnamese gunboats."

    What's more, "It was generally known...that `covert' operations against North Vietnam, carried out by South Vietnamese forces with U.S. support and direction, had been going on for some time."

    In the absence of independent journalism, the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution — the closest thing there ever was to a declaration of war against North Vietnam — sailed through Congress on Aug. 7. (Two courageous senators, Wayne Morse of Oregon and Ernest Gruening of Alaska, provided the only "no" votes.) The resolution authorized the president "to take all necessary measures to repel any armed attack against the forces of the United States and to prevent further aggression."

    The rest is tragic history.

    Nearly three decades later, during the Gulf War, columnist Sydney Schanberg warned journalists not to forget "our unquestioning chorus of agreeability when Lyndon Johnson bamboozled us with his fabrication of the Gulf of Tonkin incident."

    Schanberg blamed not only the press but also "the apparent amnesia of the wider American public."

    And he added: "We Americans are the ultimate innocents. We are forever desperate to believe that this time the government is telling us the truth."


    My point is, this notion we have of the intrepid reporter, digging deep and speaking truth to power is, as Steven Colbert pointed out the other night, often more of a fiction, than fact.

    "In your spare time, [Colbert advised the press], "write that novel you got kicking around in your head -- you know, the one about the intrepid Washington reporter with the courage to stand up to the administration. You know -- fiction."

    ReplyDelete
  52. HWSNBN spreads the usual Dubya Disinfo:

    However, what does this statement have to do with the Plame matter. Reporters were calling the Administration (not the other way around) about Plame's role in sending her hubby to Niger before Wilson published his NYT Op Ed lying about what he was told in Niger.

    Hate to say it, but from reasonable accounts (including the perps), the information went from the maladministration, including Rove and Libby, to the news folks first.

    Want to try stay in the reality-based world?

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  53. The HWSNBN shilling troll sez:

    It has to be embarrassing to say the least when unidentified CIA sources are blowing the cover off Plame's alleged work on Iran...

    Ummm, doofus: If the work wasn't really being done, no harm, no foul, eh? Kind of shoots your "See! They're leaking more stuff. 'Arrest that man!' [h/t to Bolt's A Man For All Seasons])" wailing all to h***....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous2:00 PM

    Bart,

    The GJ meets tomorrow. Tomorrow a sealed indictment against Rove is handed down. Friday it is made public. I'd make make a wager with you but I'm an atheist and gambling is against my religion.

    ReplyDelete
  55. don:

    [I think you're replying to me]

    It's one thing not having agents on the ground and another not having intelligence.

    True. But I said "HUMINT". There are some that have complained that over-reliance on technical means of intelligence has left us a little blind (witness the Iraq debacle).

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  56. Anonymous2:05 PM

    "Seixon: (until they effectively silenced me)"

    How? You won't shut up. Nevermind. We'll ask them. Soon I hope.

    ReplyDelete
  57. HWSNBN gets another fact wrong:

    1) The misnomer "reality based community" was a self identifier for secularists who opposed the "faith based community."

    Nope. The "reality-based community" stole it from the maladministrationm itself.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  58. seixon:

    I am a fascist, a right-winger, a Republican operative, a Zionist, conservative, and all sorts of lovely things. Oh, and a Nazi, of course.

    Can I vote for "clueless berk"? Glenn has already explained that the truth of the new stories is not the point of his post here.

    OBTW, if it quacks....

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  59. Everything that happens around George Bush is seen through the rose-colored prism that he is the great defender of the United States from the "brown terrorist hordes".

    Everytime evidence arises that reveals how little time and energy the administration actually spends protecting people, Bush followers experience a moment of cognitive dissonance and then lash out.

    You can see this with the immigration issue as well (although in this case at least the conservatives are lashing out at their own party as they should).

    Bush doesn't favor building a WALL to keep out the brown hordes to the south? This disturbs them.

    The idea that an enemy of Bush's was a vital national security asset violates their whole world view. Ask a conservative how many liberals are in the military and the answer is usually "none?.

    ReplyDelete
  60. And in the case that Plame was working on Iran... so what? Obviously it was a bitch that her cover was blown, but she can thank herself and her lying husband for that. I bet they haven't sought an apology from Richard Armitage - the real leaker. Nope, it was ROVE from day one for Wilson. He knew where to focus.

    Wow, thanks for proving Glenn's point, which was not that the article should be taken as fact, but that people like you immediately dismiss such evidence automatically.

    BTW, whatever you might think of Plame and her "lying" husband, when her identity was exposed by the Leaker-In-Chief (who has admitted he gave the order for Fuck's sake, so stop saying her identity was "well-known" in Washington) - everyone she knew, worked with ever spoke to, especially abroad was put at risk.

    Even if Plame was just a receptionist at CIA - every hostile government would assume the worst (that's she was a spy) and treat everyone she associated with as a threat. All her friends will are undoubtedly now treated as possible CIA agents if they ever travel abroad. They may or may not be, Bush hasn't leaked their identities yet, but exposing just one agent does tremendous harm to many people, and thus, the national interest.

    It doesn't matter what specific case she was working on for CIA - whether it was Iran, Sudan, Canada or Wonderland. Multiple other CIA operatives and humint sources were either exposed or put at suspicion thanks to this Administration's willful leak. Aided of course by Bob "douchebag" Novak who certainly made sure the world knew she was a CIA operative, whether or not any washington reporters already knew (I'm sure other reporters know some other things that are classified, but so long as they honourably choose not to publish those facts, hostile powers will not learn them, a secret kept is still a secret kept).

    As for her "lying" husband: The yellowcake story was false and Iraq was never even remotely close to getting uranium out of Niger. If he was lying, the administration could have easily refuted him and exposed him as a liar. Oops, silly us for trusting a US Ambassador's word over the ever reliable "curveball."

    ReplyDelete
  61. Anonymous2:33 PM

    Bithead said...
    So when do we see the leftists admitting that their knees are jerking... "If Bush says it, it must be a lie".


    No, no, no. Pavlovian might be Diane D.'s reaction to your picture. I can see why and I wish I didn't. I'm originally from NYC. I have this little bell that goes off. It's the bell on my bullshit detector. We all have them, but coming from NYC, mine is more sensitive and finely tuned than most. I used to calibrate it once a week. Then Bush got into office. I calibrate it every day now because that damn bell is going off all day long now. When Bush is talking, or Bart or you are typing, that damn bell just won't stop.

    ReplyDelete
  62. >It is interesting that you would invoke that misnomer while defending the fabricated story of the WH revenging themselves against Plame for the Op Ed lies of Wilson<

    Like any good scientist, my theories are subject to refutation by any additional evidence that may come to bear.

    I've been following the Plame for a while now. I read Wilson's editorial the day it came out. I read Novak's column the day it came out. I read David Corn's column in which he pointed out that Novak's column was evidence of a crime the day it came out. I then waited the additional months it took before any of it became news. I am reasonably familiar with what information has been released to the public and what speculation exists as to what information is still being held behind the grand jury veil of secrecy.

    I would be delighted to hear any evidence which would support the notion that any aspect of this story has been fabricated, but in the meantime I will cite bart's post as additional evidence of Glenn's original premise which is that Bush defenders selectivly ignore facts which fail to support their world-view.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Bart Said:

    Reporters were calling the Administration (not the other way around) about Plame's role in sending her hubby to Niger before Wilson published his NYT Op Ed lying about what he was told in Niger. It is temporally impossible for the WH to be taking revenge for an act which had not yet occurred.

    Upon what exactly are you basing this Wilson is lying assertion?

    Snark about reality vs. faith based seems a tad ironic, does it not?

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous2:41 PM

    Hume's Ghost said...
    "And in the case ..."

    Theology and Falsification


    I'll see you that, and raise you this... and side bet you that this will make you laugh more.

    The Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult
    by Murray N. Rothbard


    Written in 1972, this was the first piece of Rand revisionism from the libertarian standpoint.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Anonymous2:45 PM

    From the above link by the libertarian Rothbard...

    "And the Randian movement was strictly hierarchical. At the top of the pyramid, of course, was Rand herself, the Ultimate Decider of all questions."

    Bush is a Randian. He is the "Ultimate Decider". We all need to sweat.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Anonymous2:51 PM

    Glenn says:
    I honestly don't know how much impact the disclosure of Plame's CIA employment had on our intelligence efforts, if any. And neither do Bush defenders. But they don't care if it did or didn't. They only care about defending the President no matter the seriousness of his wrongdoing or the obviousness of his errors, and if the only way to do that is to simply refuse to believe facts that contradict that goal, then so be it.

    How in the world is anyone expected to consider this seriously? Bush detractors don't care about the validity of any handy slur as this paragraph amply demonstrates. Here we have an announced bit of info, that Glenn specifically states is an unknown. But so what? It's enough to write a nice long post bashing Bush and supporters. No facts required, just emotional bluster. Hell, Bush isn't even involved in the Plame controversy, but of course that's irrelevant.

    I'm sorry, but this is just another example of setting double standards. It's ruinous to mention that the prime detractor of the SOTU was sent to Niger by his wife in the CIA, but outing a surveillance program is OK because we think it might, possibly, may, be illegal? And oh yeah, we are morally superior whistleblowers.

    Anytime a reader here wants to weigh the extent of emotionally based rhetoric, need only consider that response of thousands to Deborah Howell. I've seen the observation made here that conservative blogs tend not to have comment sections. Howell's experience is why. Bush supporters may be constant, but reflexive Bush detractors tend to be rude, crude, and socially unacceptable.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Anonymous2:59 PM

    If Plame was such a great thinker and analyst why did she think it was a good idea to send her husband, unqualified as he was, to do nothing but (according to him) sit by the pool drinking booze and having a few giggles with the locals before coming back and telling the CIA bupkis. Since that was her idea of investigating weapons of mass destruction proliferation, I'm glad the Bitch is gone. I'm more glad if she was assigned to working on Iranian nukes after doing such a spectacular job on Iraq's WMD. After all it was her agency and her work that lead her ultimate boss to promise the President "WMD in Iraq is a Slam Dunk".

    sheesh

    Says the "Dog"

    ReplyDelete
  68. Hey Glenn- I did not mean to imply you were slow on the uptake, but Schuster. If msm figures took the blogosphere seriously, they could have important stories much sooner.As to Raw Story, you said:

    >But what I do know is that I have seen Raw Story report many, many items which turned out to be false and/or which should not have been reported. I beleive they now acknowledge this themselves. As a result, I do not consider them a reliable news source and would not assume that things that were reported only there are true.<

    Certainly, this could be said about ALL msm outlets, except the part where they admit their mistakes.

    Whether Plame was working on Iranian nuclear proliferation is an important story and tied inextricably to why she was outed. MSM needs to be a lot faster with this kind of exposure, and stop worrying about coddling the hysterical, infantile Bush Cultists.

    Glenn, your dedication to "outing" reality is greatly appreciated.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Anonymous3:05 PM

    Shooter 242: "Hell, Bush isn't even involved in the Plame controversy, but of course that's irrelevant." A straight shooter you ain't.

    Bush is involved.

    First, he is the president, and the people involved report, directly or indirectly, to him.

    Second, he committed himself publicly to getting to the bottom of the affair.

    Third, the law enforcement apparatus is an arm of the executive.

    I could go on, and I'm sure others can add more ties that bind him to this. But here's my last one:

    Last, Bush recognizes no Constitutional limits to his power. He therefore finds himself free to inquire, surveil, search, arrest, torture, imprison, and execute anyone. If he doesn't know the answers (and he should), he could find out.

    Our boy is involved.

    ReplyDelete
  70. shooter242:

    It's ruinous to mention that the prime detractor of the SOTU was sent to Niger by his wife in the CIA.

    Ummm, no. It's ruinous to out her as a NOC. It's only pathetic to try and slur what her husband says using the ad hominem fallacy of charges of nepotism.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  71. Anonymous3:11 PM

    If Plame was such a great thinker and analyst why did she think it was a good idea to send her husband, unqualified as he was, to do nothing but (according to him) sit by the pool drinking booze and having a few giggles with the locals before coming back and telling the CIA bupkis.

    Maybe she was afraid that the repug crooks would provide him with prostitutes if he stayed home. Maybe even a gay one like gannon/guckert.

    Can you really blame her for wanting her husband as far away from the culture of corruption and immoral sex rings?

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=1684086&page=1

    The only differences are:

    1. Gannon/guckert swallows and doesn't wear a blue dress like monika.

    2. Clinton had sex with a consenting adult and did not trade any sex acts for political favors.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Shooter242,
    I don't get your point--let me say it in a "socially acceptable way." You assert that there is no moral or legal difference between the White House outing and destroying the career of a CIA agent in order to impeach (somehow) the testimony of her husband in political matter and (some) leaking of classified information on a matter dealing with possible illegalities by the government. Is that a fair recap?

    So, to your mind, there is no difference between the perceived momentary interest of the political party in power (the Bush White House) and the state (which holds the right to protect state secrets and classified information?

    You are seriously arguing that the White House did, with malice aforethought, destroy the career of a CIA agent and her networks and contacts in order to simply impeach the testimony of her husband in another matter and that it was justified as a matter of state security? What security? THe White House doesn't have a legal right to protect its *public status* or even any legal or constitutional or even historic right to protect its image from attack--not since John Adams anyway--and certainly not by cutting off its CIA nose to spite its CIA face.

    Your post shows the utter confusion that Bush supporters seem to show between the Country--our Country, and its interests,and those of the temporary occupant of the White House. Its a shame that we need to remind you, if you are an American Citizen, that however Bush got into the white house, and however he leaves, he remains nothing more than an elected representative of the people. Not a King, not a God, and certainly not "the state."

    aimai

    ReplyDelete
  73. "The Dog" sez ...

    ... nothing of consequence. But his frothings simply prove Glenn's case. The verdict: "Guilty, Your Honour."

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  74. Anonymous3:14 PM

    Thanks bart, for so perfectly illustrating Glenn's point with your fantacyland post.

    "OK, let's assume this leak is true. Nothing else about the Plame case has been true,"

    Quick review of the facts for you:

    1.Plame covert
    2. Plame outed
    3.CIA refers case to justice department
    4.Libby is indited for purjury/obstruction in investigation of #2
    5.Just because no one has YET been charged in the outing of Plame, does not mean she was not outed. Or do you contend the CIA made a mistake in notifing the Justice Department?

    Here the procecutor explains it himself. Note paragraph 6 and 7:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801340.html

    Now note how silly you and your friends look with your Plame is a big joke comments. Again thinks for the glaring example.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Dog Says:

    If Plame was such a great thinker and analyst why did she think it was a good idea to send her husband, unqualified as he was, to do nothing but (according to him) sit by the pool drinking booze and having a few giggles with the locals before coming back and telling the CIA bupkis.

    Dog, on what exactly are you basing the assertion that Wilson was unqualified?

    It gets a bit tiresome to read comments that make assertions that are contrary to known facts. If you have some special resource we'd all like to hear/see it.

    ReplyDelete
  76. >It gets a bit tiresome to read comments that make assertions that are contrary to known facts. If you have some special resource we'd all like to hear/see it.<

    But it does prove the point of Glenn's initial post.

    Having gone completely off topic, we are still miraculously - on topic!

    ReplyDelete
  77. Anonymous3:28 PM

    I don't disagree with the post today. But, as a general matter, the same criticism could be levelled at the Left and the Leftist blogosphere. If Glenn were truly a truth seeker, as he implicitly claims to be, then he would shine the spotlight on the Left every once a while. He'll find the same amen corner, cheerleading and rooting for the home team that he finds on the Right. But that's not his interest right now.

    Ultimately, Glenn IS doing appellate work. For the time being, he's advocating against Bush, embracing the facts and evidence he believes is supportive for the cause. Like I said, I don't disagree with the post today. But this notion that the Right and its cheerleaders are the only ones not intellectually honest and not interested in the objective truth is a fiction.

    "The bias makes the blog," I once read. So true.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Anonymous3:29 PM

    Arne Langsetmo said...
    "The Dog" sez ...

    ... nothing of consequence. But his frothings


    He might have rabies. He certainly has fleas, ticks and worms.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Anonymous3:30 PM

    From shooter242 at 2:51PM:

    "It's ruinous to mention that the prime detractor of the SOTU was sent to Niger by his wife in the CIA, but outing a surveillance program is OK because we think it might, possibly, may, be illegal? And oh yeah, we are morally superior whistleblowers."

    The State of the Union is simply a speech, not some sacrosanct national institution above critique or correction.

    Mrs. Wilson never 'sent' her husband anywhere. There is ancedotal evidence she suggested him as a investigator on the issue involved, primarly because of his past experience in the region.

    The surveillance program runs counter to established US Statute (FISA), thus making it illegal. This has been admitted by the President himself when the story broke. Until the Courts rule one way or the other, no amount of screaming FISA is 'unconstitutional' will change the illegality of the program under discussion.

    Thanks for proving Glenn's point once again.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Anonymous3:32 PM

    ...he would shine the spotlight on the Left every once a while.

    You must be a "newbie," Glenn reciprocates to the "advertising liberally" circle of links all the time. An you know, they are right about EVERYTHING.

    They are GODS and if people would just forget about socio-economic issues, shut up, and do what they are told; we would have a great government!

    ReplyDelete
  81. Anonymous3:33 PM

    Shorter hidden yes ma'am:

    But, but you guys do it too!

    Now that's a case of arrested development, unless you actually are 12.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Anonymous3:33 PM

    I think we are overlooking a very simple exposure of the bush defenders lack of creditibilty.
    In the end folks, we only need look at one fact that illistrates this very clearly. Throughout his ENTIRE presidnecy there has not been ONE SINGLE bush administration critic, NOT ONE that has not been smeared as:

    A liar, partican, one with a bone to pick, tring to sell a book, bitter, unAmerican. There are many more of course.

    We all know no one is perfect, (77% of us at least) so the fact that this administration has not had one, what it or its defenders would call, legimate detractor says it all. They have no creditibility.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Anonymous3:37 PM

    Anonymous @ 3:32 PM,

    WTF is your major malfunction? Would you prefer he carries ads for Halliburton? Greenpeace? You don't have to pay to come here to make an ass out of yourself. You should. If Glenn wants to use his blog to make some money selling ad space for all the work your not paying him to do, that's none of your business, is it? If you don't like it, vote with your feet, K?

    ReplyDelete
  84. Plame wsn't the only one "outed" -- when they outed Plame they outed her cover, the company she usd as cover, anyone she did business with, any collegues, any friends, any assets.

    This was the worst case of treason ever.

    ReplyDelete
  85. (S)He is a recurring commenter, whose only contribution is to join any thread to bemoan the "'advertising liberally' circle of links" which (s)he has an animus towards.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Anonymous3:48 PM

    But, but you guys do it too!

    Exactly. So bear that in mind the next time you feel all high-minded and vicariously vindicated through Glenn's post. Personally, I think the idiots on the Right are well matched by the amen corner of the Left to which I can only assume you subscribe.

    Now that's a case of arrested development, unless you actually are 12.

    Case in point.

    ReplyDelete
  87. That people are unwilling to give up their preconceptions and most cherished beliefs is understandable and perhaps uniquely human. If people were always changing their minds, heck, they'd be in constant upheaval, probably psychologically unstable. You have to believe in something that change all the time to get along in life.

    The Bushites have put their--understandable--faith and trust in GW. That's understandable for all kinds of reasons. Bush represents a worldview that brings order to the chaos of the modern world. He appeals to a higher authority for his actions, something many in their most dire moments find themselves doing.

    As polls show, a huge majority of people in the US would not even give an atheist who runs for office the time of day. So, the notion that many voted for Bush because he is a man of faith is also quite normal and reasonable. People want a leader who just doesn't pull his/her principles out of their rear ends. They hope/want to believe that the leader understands that there is a higher law, a higher power than base human self-interest.

    S'alls good so far. With 911, the majority of the public rallied around the flag and by implication the commander-in-chief. To do otherwise would be unreasonable--perhaps even anti-social, if not treasonous, given the nature of the attack and its consequences.

    In his role of (supposed) commander-in-chief, the majority of the people were willing to give the President a lot of leeway in deciding what is or is not in the country's interests. He has the info, after all, that we the public cannot and probably should not know or have access to.

    There was very little criticism of the President's military operation in Afghanistan. Any criticism that there was was looked upon as either eccentric at best, misplaced at worst. Most people could live with that--we are a nation proud of its tradition of freedom of expression.

    The war in Iraq seemed absolutely reasonable to a majority of people, especially given the "evidence" evinced by the Knower-in-chief and his knower insiders. Who could argue with the possibility of germ letters, mushroom cluds on the horizon, and the crazy Arab/Moslems who all look alike and whom people can hardly tell part anyway?

    The breaking point to this wholly reasonable and common-sense view of the public came with the fact that no WMDs were found. Then there's the fact that many Iraqis just didn't lie down and accept us as liberators. If there's one thing that the public can't stand it is being lied to by the knower-in-chief or anyone else. People generally don't like to be seen by others as rubes or self-deluded fools who'll believe in falshood.

    But there're those who see the world differently than most people who believe in comon-sense. These people see common-sense just as a form of PCness and therefore self-delusion. These true believers are the ones who see reality, see the truth, see the REAL threat.

    The fact that facts do not turn out in the way they were reported is simply a matter of interpretation and open to an infinite number of interpretations. Here, big picture view overrides petty facts. The point is that these "facts" are just details that only the petty-minded enemies use to attack and undermine the greater reality.

    This greater reality is that 1) western/American values are under attack from inside by the secularist/relativists, 2) under attack from outside by medievalist mind-sets, 3) Moslems/Arabs are procreating like rats and, given the nature of their ideology, are all born to be terrorists who mindlessly wish to kill us and our cherished way of life, and 4) the nature of reality is struggle and the winners in this struggle are those who will go to any lengths to protect themselves.

    Of course, fewer and fewer of the majority public are willing to accept much of this. To the true believers, they are caught in the snares of illusion and self-deception. Depending on the filter you want to use, they are either those who will be Left Behind or duped masses who will follow any lie just as long as the facade of truth can be ginned up in the form of threat to their private worlds and consumerist fantasies.

    Now, we on this forum who accept Glenn's work must assume some things about this "gullible" majority. We must assume that they have the ethical disposition to common-sense judgement to weed out fact from fiction. I still believe that most people are disposed to acknowledging a more reasonable, common-sense argument such as Glenn's.

    At heart, this argument will be more credible to the public the more it appeals to them as ethical beings who do indeed think that the truth in the form of evidential and forensic facts matter.

    In a world of change and variability, all truth is probabilistic. In most cases, people in general are willing to believe the better argument which can prove its case inductively. Truth in this case is the more probable.

    Given all the potential for manipulation and spin that the political insiders give to the facts, there are just some things that you can't deny. In the argument presented by Glenn, the things that people can't and won't deny is something that relates to an inherent immorality that inspires the grand gestures perpetrated by this admin.

    ReplyDelete
  88. "This was the worst case of treason ever."

    In the past, for money, agents have been outed which resulted in their death. For 4 million dollars, Alrich Ames gave up the identities of every agent working for the CIA in Russia.

    Outing Plame was deplorable, but I think calling it the worst case of treason ever is hyperbole.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Anonymous3:55 PM

    I'd guess that blowing Plame's cover blew the entire front company's cover as well. What a concept.

    ReplyDelete
  90. hume's ghost: Outing Plame was deplorable, but I think calling it the worst case of treason ever is hyperbole.

    I appreciate your distinction here between the Ames treason and that of those who outed Plame. I don't know whether you've read my previous posting on Plame and her work on Iran, but if that is true and getting her out of the way so the case against Iran can be made to appear true... Well, I think the idea that someone was treasonously outed to make way for a war that will potentially kill tens of thousands of innocents as well as put our roops in harm's way--that seems to be a pretty horrendous form of treason.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Anonymous4:02 PM

    Kevin Phillips, the Republican analyst, wrote a book called American Dynasty. And in there, he claims that, during the president’s 2000 campaign, he did sing The Star Spangled Banner in Spanish at some Hispanic festivals, various campaign events.

    FACTS LIKE THIS ABOUT OUR CHIMPEROR ARE FALSE!

    ReplyDelete
  92. Anonymous4:06 PM

    WTF is your major malfunction? Would you prefer he carries ads for Halliburton? Greenpeace?

    I am not talking about ads, morons. I am talking about the circular set of links to the same set of blogs that know no more about issues and policies than anyone else. I am suggesting this silences any discussion about issues that democrats can actually WIN on.

    But feel free do disagree, but I will still talk about the "circle of links" and the people that misappropriate the term "liberal" to promote themselves and non-liberal agendas.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Anonymous4:11 PM

    You are missing one possibility:
    They actually did know Plame was important to anti-nucular prolife-eration and for that reason outed her: needing to assist in creating the eternal monster of terrorism so the endless war can be waged....welcome to the neocon nightmare

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous4:23 PM

    "There's no doubt in my mind that the shrillness of the arguments are being driven by cognitive dissonance."

    If they were in the grip of cognitive dissonance, they'd be changing their minds or otherwise altering their beliefs to fit new information. They may have decided that, for example, it's just fine to kill Muslims because they're The Other, thereby resolving a dissonance. But their reaction to criticism of The Leader is pure, defensive, narcissistic rage: "How DARE they say that about My Leader (me)!" It's extremely difficult to get through the thick skulls of narcissists, so the backwash will always be with you.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Anonymous4:23 PM

    No one can tell me that Wilson didn't lie. He said, in his own words, that he wasn't sent on behalf of the CIA. None of you can deny that. Wake the hell up.

    If so, it would be interesting to see you apply this standard to others (Bush et al). Do you believe they have lied about anything? Are they also "proven liar[s]"?

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  96. Anonymous4:27 PM

    No one can tell me that Wilson didn't lie. He said, in his own words, that he wasn't sent on behalf of the CIA.

    And your point is?

    That he should have told us that he was having a homosexual romp with gay prostitute gannon/guckert as a "favor" from the republican party?

    ReplyDelete
  97. On whether Plame was "covert" or not:

    A variety of arguments regarding Ms. Plame's status as "covert" have arisen as a result of Special Counsel Fitzgerald's investigation. Although the Special Counsel himself has refused to state whether Plame was "covert," [180], in a 5 February 2005 concurring opinion, Circuit Judge David S. Tatel made two references to Plame's covert status. First, on page 28 of the opinion, Judge Tatel referred to Plame as an "alleged covert agent." Second, on page 38, Judge Tatel stated that because Fitzgerald had allegedly referred to Plame as "a . . . who had carried out covert work overseas within the last 5 years," in footnote 15 of a recent affidavit, Judge Tatel inferred that Mr. Fitzgerald must have at least "some support" for that conclusion.[181]. Because Special Counsel Fitzgerald's affidavit[182] does appear to assume that it is at least possible that Libby could be guilty of intentionally exposing the identity of a "covert" agent (see affidavit, fn. 15), Judge Tatel appears to have inferred that Fitzgerald had concluded that Plame was an agent who had carried out covert work within the last 5 years.[183], [184].

    For my money, this entry at wikipedia is still the best understanding and description of this Plame affair. I've always found the following statement intriguing:

    While many observers are convinced that the administration intentionally leaked Ms. Plame's identity in retaliation against Wilson for his public challenge to the African yellowcake claim, Michael Ruppert offers a different theory.[230] Ruppert shares the belief that the leak was intentional, but argues that the motive was to forestall a possible investigation by Plame and the CIA into the reserve capacity of Saudi oil fields. In this view, the leak was part of a strategy to conceal a coming crisis in energy supply from the American people, known as the peak oil theory.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Random Thoughts...

    - The "Philip Agee" law, or the Intelligence Identities Protection Act as it is formally known, was a bad law when enacted and is still a bad law. Do not misunderstand, I take a perverse pleasure in applying bad laws to those in power, because only they can change them. The outsourcing of treason to the Judiciary is a dangerous game. Should this be illegal? Be very careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

    - Theory: The number of trolls and empty name calling masquerading as discourse is directly proportional to the use of the term "Bush Supporter." Said another way... your party guests, like your pets and children, always hold a mirror to yourself.

    - The crazy scientist who believes they are one rubber band away from cold fusion, one day may be correct. The value they provide will be determined by facts, not intention.

    - "Bush Supporter" is true by definition. X=X. So is "Bush Supporter Attacker" or "Bush Supporter Attacker Supporter" or "Bush Supporter Attacker Supporter Attacker." Freeform poetry in 2500 words or more, ad infinitum.

    - I see very few, if any, Bush supporters. I see many supporters of the Republican and Democratic parties.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Anonymous4:38 PM

    Seixon,

    No wonder you so adhere to a pro-Bush, (or at least, anti-anti-Bush), bias: your poor comprehension of the reported facts. Wilson did not go to Niger on behalf of the CIA, as such...the CIA sent him on behalf of the Vice-President's office. It was not a CIA mission, not something they did of their own initiative. They responded to the VP's request that the Niger rumors be checked out. So, Wilson's assertion he was sent on behalf of the government is...well, how about that? The TRUTH.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Anonymous4:42 PM

    I see very few, if any, Bush supporters. I see many supporters of the Republican and Democratic parties.

    I agree. In contrast to Glenn's self-serving, albeit amusing, pop-psychological portrait of "Bush Supporters," to my mind, most "Bush Supporters" are really Republican supporters. They are attempting, against all odds, to stop, or at least, minimize the damage to the Republican party. Yes, at times they sound desperate. And, yes, they should be called out on inconsistencies and hypocrisy. But the whole cult of personality spiel is a bunch of nonsense.

    ReplyDelete
  101. They responded to the VP's request that the Niger rumors be checked out. So, Wilson's assertion he was sent on behalf of the government is...well, how about that? The TRUTH.

    For a more detailed analysis of why Wilson didn’t lie as Hitchens claimed see this take down by Larry Johnson.

    These talking points have been discredited repeatedly – of course that doesn’t keep them from being repeated every time this subject comes up – that’s what they do.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Anonymous5:12 PM

    "In contrast to Glenn's self-serving, albeit amusing, pop-psychological portrait of "Bush Supporters ... "

    Pop psych? If you wish. But it doesn't take an MD to see when someone or some group's behavior is disordered.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Anonymous5:19 PM

    Politically Lost wanted to know how I can say Joe Wilson wasn't qualified to investigate WMD proliferation in Niger.

    1. Joe Wilson had zero experience as a spy or intelligence gathering asset for the CIA. He was a diplomat.

    2. Even if one argues that somehow a diplomat is qualifed to be a spy asset for the CIA, nothing makes it more clear that Joe Wilson was not only NOT competent for the job but didn't take the job seriously than his OWN WORDS in describing what the did. It was Joe Wilson who described his investigative trip on behalf of and at the expense of the CIA and his country as a couple of days sitting around by the pool and drinking booze.

    Anyone who thinks that Joe Wilson's own description of what he did to investigate something as important as WMD intelligence gathering represents operations tactics and procedures of a person qualified to do such a job is either insane or in denial or both.

    Only a person of the most marginal character would take money to do a job so important to their country, and then, in effect, bragg about how all they did was sit around by the pool and drink booze for a couple of days.

    Any CIA agent who would send such a buffoon to do such an important job, is incompetent and should be fired for such a serious lack of judgement.

    So Politically Lost, how do I know Wilson was incompetent? I read Joe Wilson's own words describing what he did and what a piss poor attitude he had about doing it.

    Says the "Dog"

    ReplyDelete
  104. Anonymous5:44 PM

    seixon, just getting a blogger account does not make it acceptable to post the kind of comments you do.

    If you disagree with something Glenn says, may I request that you address his statement(s) and say why you disagree?

    Please do NOT call Glenn an idiot. I think I speak for a good many on this site when I say that is offensive to the people who frequent this site and I personally would suggest Glenn ban you if you ever do that again.

    I bet everyone here has disagreed to a little or big extent at one time or another with something Glenn has written. They could be right, they could be wrong, but people of independent minds often disagree with a particular statement made even by a person for whom they have tremendous admiration and respect.

    I myself disagree with what Glenn wrote "appears" to be what anonymous boesch had written, as I interpreted that in an entirely different way: i,e, not as a perjorative laced criticism of Glenn, but the same way anonymous boesch later wrote he intended it.

    If I am right and my interpretation of anonymous boesch's original comment is the correct one, then if I were anonymous boesch my feelings would have been hurt, which is why I point this out in support of him.

    But, I could be wrong about that too. Just an observation.

    One thing I know I am not wrong about is that to call Glenn an idiot rather than to disagree, even vigorously, with a statement or position of his is completely unacceptable to me and I would guess to many others here.

    And Glenn cares about what we think too.

    Therefore, each and every time you or someone else does that from now on, I will exercise my own right to write an e-mail to Glenn and request that as a personal favor to a loyal reader, i.e. me, he delete all such comments.

    I don't expect Glenn to do me any personal favors, btw, and whatever he decides is more than fine with me. But I will continue to make my own position known about that.

    I know Glenn can probably "take it" without blinking an eye, but whereas I do not object to calling idiots idiots, I strongly object to calling anyone who is anything but an idiot an idiot.

    Anyone remember that scene in To Kill a Mockingbird where a person tells the daughter of Gregory Peck to "stand up" because her father (a hero) is passing by?

    That has always stayed in my mind because I relate to that concept. I only wish I had more occasions to "stand up."

    To diane d. Your own posts should have a warning at the top: do not read any posts by this commenter if you are drinking any liquid at the time.

    I was doing just that when I unfortunately started reading your comment, and was lucky to salvage my soda drenched keyboard. You are just too, too funny.

    Now that I know that, I won't be drinking anything when I start to read a post by you, so please, keep them coming :)

    This is to Cynic specifically: Cynic, I only read about the Plame-Iran issue late last night.

    I have had no time to really read up on that yet, so I would like to know if you think the following theory does have credibility since you are somewhat informed about this issue already.

    Could it be that the whole "outing" of Valerie Plame because of her husband's article about the niger forgery was a complete red herring?

    Is it possible that that was a ruse, participated in by many, to discredit her quickly and get her off the case of her Iran work because even back then Iraq was just one part of a broader scheme to follow the neo-con agenda and establish a US presence in the Middle East, including Iraq, Iran, Syria, Egypt, etc. and they didn't want anyone who was not part of the "inner circle" to be sniffing around and possibly come up with something which could cast a different light on their (real) long range agenda and perhaps derail their plans?

    If there is any merit at all to that theory, my own opinion is that the "outing" of Valerie Plame (with all its implications including the reason it was done) and what it could lead to is indeed a very, very serious act of treason against the citizens of the United States of America.

    I assume when people say "treason against the US" they imply treason against the People of the United States.

    If they don't, they should. Ain't nobody here but us chickens.

    I see others on this thread are addressing this theory, but I wondered what your own conclusions (based upon all the information you have so far) are at this point.

    Thanks, Cynic, if you read this.

    PS. Ditto about the comments about Colbert on this thread. I was fairly nonplussed when I heard Dana Millbrook (aboout whom I don't know too much except what I read on FDL) and Chris Matthews on Hardball yesterday state that Colbert "fell flat", didn't understand his audience, "wasn't subtle enough" and "went over the line."

    Matthews concluded with the statement that the President should not have been insulted in that way because he is "not just a politician, he is the Head of State."

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous5:51 PM

    Its amazing how low the bar is set for joe wilson or schuster to be lying, but when it comes to bush the bar jumps so high that he could say almost anything without crossing it.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Arne Langsetmo said...

    Bart: However, what does this statement have to do with the Plame matter. Reporters were calling the Administration (not the other way around) about Plame's role in sending her hubby to Niger before Wilson published his NYT Op Ed lying about what he was told in Niger.

    Hate to say it, but from reasonable accounts (including the perps), the information went from the maladministration, including Rove and Libby, to the news folks first.


    Feel free to link to any such statement. Novak, Miller and the Time reporter all called the Administration.

    Want to try stay in the reality-based world?

    Only leftists would claim that this web of contradicted slanders is reality.

    The book 1984 was spot on about you folks.

    Double Un Good.

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  107. Arne Langsetmo said...

    Bart: It has to be embarrassing to say the least when unidentified CIA sources are blowing the cover off Plame's alleged work on Iran...

    Ummm, doofus: If the work wasn't really being done, no harm, no foul, eh?


    Hardly. If Plame was at all active in the collection of human intelligence against Iran, Iranian intelligence can trace back her postings and meetings to find the Iranian sources for her intelligence.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Anonymous said...

    Bart: The GJ meets tomorrow. Tomorrow a sealed indictment against Rove is handed down. Friday it is made public. I'd make make a wager with you but I'm an atheist and gambling is against my religion.

    Doubtful.

    However, a GJ will indict the proverbial ham sandwich if asked by the Prosecutor. If Fitz is looking for another scalp to justify his dry hole investigation, the charge will be the same a Libby - allegedly lying to the GJ.

    If Fitz had the evidence of an actual violation of a classified information statute, he would have already brought charges.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Politically Lost said...

    Bart Said: Reporters were calling the Administration (not the other way around) about Plame's role in sending her hubby to Niger before Wilson published his NYT Op Ed lying about what he was told in Niger. It is temporally impossible for the WH to be taking revenge for an act which had not yet occurred.

    Upon what exactly are you basing this Wilson is lying assertion?


    Upon returning from Niger, Wilson provided and oral report to CIA describing how the former Niger PM informed him of the visit of an Iraqi trade delegation in 1999 seeking to open up trade with Niger. Given that all Iraq has ever traded with Niger is uranium, the PM believes that Iraq was seeking more uranium.

    Afterward, Wilson lied in his NYT Op Ed that he found no evidence in Niger that Iraq was seeking uranium. This moron probably assumed that his debriefing at CIA would remain secret and his lie concealed.

    Ooops!

    ReplyDelete
  110. Anonymous6:19 PM

    aimai says:
    and (some) leaking of classified information on a matter dealing with possible illegalities by the government.
    Let's get this out of the way first. In Democrat theory the entire government is possibly illegal. Should one follow your characterization, every and all actions, proposals, orders, appointments, thoughts, and what color underwear for the President should be publically examined for possible illegalities. I hope that strikes you as absurd, but it is the basis for which you wish to excuse the NSA leakage.

    So, to your mind, there is no difference between the perceived momentary interest of the political party in power (the Bush White House) and the state (which holds the right to protect state secrets and classified information?
    Hmmm. This is a novel approach. I'm not a lawyer and some of the more esoteric concepts of the Constitution may have escaped me.
    It looks like you are trying to seperate the "state"(legal basis of government) from the people elected to operate the machinery of government (state)? But only people can have secrets and classified information. Are you elevating the bureaucracy above elected representatives? Sorry, but you'll have to help me out with that one.

    You are seriously arguing that the White House did, with malice aforethought, destroy the career of a CIA agent and her networks and contacts in order to simply impeach the testimony of her husband in another matter and that it was justified as a matter of state security? What security? THe White House doesn't have a legal right to protect its *public status* or even any legal or constitutional or even historic right to protect its image from attack--not since John Adams anyway--and certainly not by cutting off its CIA nose to spite its CIA face.

    With malice aforethought? Do I need a lawyer? Goodness. Where to start.....
    * The basic idea that the White House has to sit by, and take no action to defend it's policy, is absurd.
    * Plame's career is not destroyed. As far as I know, she still drives to and from Langely just like she did before this brou-ha-ha.
    * Novak brought up her name, Wilson brought up the idea that her status was more than pedestrian. Novak also vetted his story with the CIA, who on initial contact gave only the standard caveats.
    * Wilson's initial report was considered supportive of the administration position. It was only when Wilson went on a one man interview binge to discredit the administration, that the affair ensued. Even that wouldn't have happened if Wilson didn't have the colossal ego to think he, and he alone, should have been sufficient to dissuade Bush from pursuing Iraq.
    In fact I would go so far as to say that Plame is the least guilty party in all this and not a victim of Bush, but her husband's egotism.

    By the way, do you folks anticipate putting up Plame for beatitude? Saint Valerie has a nice ring to it, and would be ever so helpful when pulling her out every so often, to make political points.

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  111. Anonymous6:19 PM

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801340.html

    Keep ignoring it Bart, maybe it will go away.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Anonymous6:20 PM

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801340.html

    Keep ignoring it Bart, maybe it will go away.

    ReplyDelete
  113. I am not really sure if the argument -- that the only government investigation into the charges of Niger yellowcake sales to Iraq was performed by an unqualified socialite on a boondoggle from his wife -- actually helps the administration.

    ReplyDelete
  114. seixon:

    Amongst other ridiculous errors of fact:

    I'd also like to mention that the "outing" of Plame would never have been a big deal if David Corn and other Wilsonistas hadn't made such a big deal out of it after Novak's column.

    Novak's widely syndicated in newspapers acroos the country. Not so for Corn.

    Better 'facts', please.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  115. Anonymous6:45 PM

    I forgot to say one more thing about the possibility that Valerie Plame was deliberately "outed" by the top levels of this administration because they didn't want her to continue her work (if she was working on that) on the Iran/nuclear capabilities issue.

    Let us posit for a moment that the above is in fact true. That leads me back to something which has been at the back of my mind for a long time. I have no conclusions, but it's a thought which has been bubbling around there.

    People have been very, very quick to make a hero out of Patrick Fitzgerald. This is true especially of people on the "left."

    He could well be everything those people think he is.

    But just maybe he is not.

    So far, try as I might (and I have benefited especially from the work that FDL has done on this issue), I just cannot see that anything really significant or productive has yet resulted from his efforts.

    That gives me pause.

    Getting a conviction against Libby is essentially meaningless in my opinion. He'll just be pardoned, and I am not one who is especially interested, or interested at all, in fact, with things like vengence and personal vendettas. I am interested in minimizing injustices, preserving freedom, and heading off incipient Dictatorships at the pass.

    Even getting a conviction against Rove would accomplish little in my opinion, except give Huffington Post some endless material to write about. (I am beginning to be highly suspect -- Judicious Suspicion is my middle name-- of Arianna Huffington herself, btw.)

    So what's is all about Patrick? A McGuffin? Something important? Or another red herring?

    It seems the jury is definitely still out concerning each and every aspect of the Plame leak, Joseph Wilson, the NY Times role in that whole thing, the Fitzgerald investigation, and, well, everything.

    It could well be we will never find out the truth but my present opinion is that based upon what I have read so far, the truth could possibly best be found in the writings of some (not all) of the contributers to antiwar.com.

    Do I accept every thing I read from those writers a given? Nope. But I have noticed that many of the things which they write about start out there and after a few weeks or months find their way into the MSM and onto the Internet, are then evaluated by many of different political viewpoints, and generally then concluded to be true.

    So they have a very good track record so far in my opinion.

    I don't think going through life as a "detective" who tries to connect all the dots for oneself makes one a "paranoid" personality. I think it makes such a person someone who is very interested in finding out what the truth really is.

    To Paul Rosenberg: My opinion is that your post early in this thread is very, very perceptive and plumbs some of the deeper levels of human psychology. I myself would add one thing to your observations. That would be the concept of "careerism". I define, for these purposes, a "careerist" as someone for whom the pursuit of his career is more important to him than his desire to seek out and then act solely upon the truth.

    Very few people tell off their bosses in defense of the "truth" if to do so would jeopardize their own careers.

    ReplyDelete
  116. seixon:

    No one can tell me that Wilson didn't lie. He said, in his own words, that he wasn't sent on behalf of the CIA.

    He may have been told that he should say that, for any number of reasons.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  117. "The Dog" sez:

    1. Joe Wilson had zero experience as a spy or intelligence gathering asset for the CIA. He was a diplomat.

    Ummm, hate to break it to you, but many "diplomats" are spies. Or, the other way around, many spies are diplomats.

    IOW, you're just talking out your a**...

    It was Joe Wilson who described his investigative trip on behalf of and at the expense of the CIA and his country as a couple of days sitting around by the pool and drinking booze.

    Ummm, that's not what the Senate report says. Did you have some evidence for this assertion? Oh, yeah, nevermind, sorry, forgot for a minute who I was talking to....

    And "ej" has the booze angle covered.

    Only a person of the most marginal character would take money to do a job so important...

    Ummm, he didn't. Only expenses incurred. Say, I can tell you that a visit to central Africa is not exactly a day at DisneyWorld. When was the last time you were there?

    Any CIA agent who would send such a buffoon to do such an important job, is incompetent and should be fired for such a serious lack of judgement.

    IC. We need a CIA full of doofuses like you? No thanks.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  118. HWSNBN:

    Feel free to link to any such statement. Novak, Miller and the Time reporter all called the Administration.

    The flow of information, not the call. But you knew that, you troll.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  119. HWSNBN:

    Hardly. If Plame was at all active in the collection of human intelligence against Iran, Iranian intelligence can trace back her postings and meetings to find the Iranian sources for her intelligence.

    *ZIP* Ten miles over his poinetd little head. You can't claim that Plame's actions were only alleged and then say that there was some terrible security leak in saying she did what you've just claimed she didn't in fact do.

    Does that help? Or are you still clueless?

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  120. Anonymous7:15 PM

    ej said...

    Quoting Joe Wilson in 2003 NYT Op Ed: I spent the next eight days drinking sweet mint tea and meeting with dozens of people..


    OK, he spent 8 days sitting by the pool and drinking booze.

    Here are some gems from the same NYT Joe Wilson Op Ed:

    I (Joe Wilson) made it abundantly clear to everyone I met that I was acting on behalf of the United States government (i.e., CIA)

    No doubt this method and practice of investigating international dealings with rogue regimes seeking WMD and nuclear weapons materials is straight out of the Inspector Clouseau (sp?) School Of International Mystery. Guaranteed to get the truth when you are especially careful to tell everyone you meet, "look at me I'm Joe Wilson super spy for the CIA. Now come clean and tell me what you know about your country dealing in nuclear weapons materials to the sworn enemies of the USA".

    Brilliant, Joe. Just Brilliant.

    Again from the Joe Wilson's mouth and the same NYT piece:

    In short, there's simply too much oversight over too small an industry for a sale to have transpired.

    Translation: There is no way a tin pot African Country's bureaucrats could be corrupt or just fooled. We all know and Joe Wilson especially knows tha bureaucrats can't be fooled and can't be corrupt.

    Brilliant Joe, Just Brilliant.

    Joe in this same NYT's piece likes to quote his opinion of what are standard government operating procedures, but he fails to explain why his wife failed to follow standard operating procedures and have him sign an NDA regarding his work for the CIA as is standard operating procedures.

    The Joe Wilson mission from the beginning was designed to be at best a free vacation and at worst an incompetent exercise conduct in a highly incompetent manner under the direction of an incompetent CIA agent, directing her incompetent husband.

    To quote from that same NYT Joe Wilson Op Ed:

    Joe Wilson was the Ambassador to Gabon and is an international business consultant.

    Well Gabon, why didn't somebody say so. Gabon is superspy training grounds for the USA. Everybody knows that. Just ask Joe Wilson. He'll be glad to tell everyone he meets he works for the CIA and is on a mission for the CIA to find out what the enemies of the USA have been up to.

    Gee I hope questioning Joe Wilson's competence and using his own words to demonstrate the might powers of our man in Gabon doesn't get me labeled as an unthinking whacko Bush supporter.

    Says the "Dog"

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous7:25 PM

    Seixon says: "After all the talking points from Wilson's apologists saying that he never claimed he was sent by the government..."

    Who has ever said this?

    Those who would slander Wilson have lied and put words in Wilson's mouth, saying Wilson "claimed" that Dick Cheney sent him to Niger. Wilson never said this. He said--truthfully--that Dick Cheney's office asked the CIA to check out the Niger rumors. RESPONDING TO THE VP'S REQUEST, the CIA sent Wilson to check on the matter.

    Thus, Wilson was sent on behalf of the government.

    Not at the direct, personal request from Cheney to Wilson; not as an initiative developed by the CIA. But, as an envoy sent by the CIA to carry out the government's directive.

    Those who persist in holding on to untenable beliefs re: Wilson may fool the ever-diminishing pool of true believers, but rational people can easily parse Wilson's own words and see where they differ from what others have claimed he said.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Anonymous7:27 PM

    Said doggie: "Gee I hope questioning Joe Wilson's competence and using his own words to demonstrate the might powers of our man in Gabon doesn't get me labeled as an unthinking whacko Bush supporter."

    You're an unthinking whacko bush supporter.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Anonymous7:31 PM

    Yankeependragon says:
    The State of the Union is simply a speech, not some sacrosanct national institution above critique or correction.

    In this particular case it was Bush's personal public case for his policy. As you say it's not above critique or correction, but one can be sure that if one calls the President a liar in the nation's paper of record, rebuttal will follow.

    The surveillance program runs counter to established US Statute (FISA), thus making it illegal. This has been admitted by the President himself when the story broke. Until the Courts rule one way or the other, no amount of screaming FISA is 'unconstitutional' will change the illegality of the program under discussion.

    It may or may not be illegal. As I understand it, we don't know the exact nature of what's being done and how it fits in with the law. If you really, really, really, want to be right, I'll go along with you and say that the program may very well be illegal. Feel better? Good. Now I'm going to say I don't care if it is. FISA is a product of fear that the fourth amendment will be shattered because of electronic surveillance. That's all well and good but meaningless if New York goes up in smoke.

    Therein lies the flaw with trying to determine how many angels dance on the head of a pin. The legal niceties of FISA immobilized the FBI into ignoring flying lessons and a certain laptop. This particular debate wishes to stop the process of determining who should be examined with a warrant, by demanding warrants for the unknown. Personally, I want some dots to connect. You folks can contemplate your legal navels all you like but the rest of the world doesn't care, particularly the parts that like killing Americans. I understand Judge Richard Posner has some sway with libs, here's his view.....

    Ronald Dworkin, the distinguished legal philosopher and constitutional theorist, wrote in The New York Review of Books in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks that “we cannot allow our Constitution and our shared sense of decency to become a suicide pact.” He would doubtless have said the same thing about FISA. If you approach legal issues in that spirit rather than in the spirit of ruat caelum fiat iusticia (let the heavens fall so long as justice is done), you will want to know how close to suicide a particular legal interpretation will bring you before you decide whether to embrace it. The legal critics of the surveillance program have not done this, and the defenders have for the most part been content to play on the critics’ turf.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Anonymous7:34 PM

    From the Dog at 7:15PM:

    "No doubt this method and practice of investigating international dealings with rogue regimes seeking WMD and nuclear weapons materials is straight out of the Inspector Clouseau (sp?) School Of International Mystery."

    Sorry, but Sydeny Bristow and Jack Bauer were unavailable. We had to make do with more conventional techniques of interviewing people to see if Iraqi envoys had been approaching Nigerian officials to purchase the reported yellowcake.

    My gods, you really have no idea how the real world works, do you? No, of course you don't.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Dog Says:

    1. Joe Wilson had zero experience as a spy or intelligence gathering asset for the CIA. He was a diplomat.

    Solid evidence, I stand corrected. It only ignores all the other work he's done in the past leading the former President Bush to call him an American hero during the first gulf war; as well as other postings he held in Africa and Europe, diplomats of course do not engage in intelligence gathering...how silly of me. But, he was only a diplomat. You are correct about that. He was just the Ambassador to the very country he was sent to investigate the claims of attempting to buy uranium. Which of course has been shown by objective reality (remember now George Tenent has admitted for everyone that those uranium claims are false) that Wilson's report was not only correct but has been shown that the claims were in fact forgeries. But, Dog your point makes it very clear that Wilson could not possibly be credible as to his ability to ask the Nigerian state run uranium mining industry people that he worked with for years whether the Iraqi's were seeking yellowcake.

    Dog says: It was Joe Wilson who described his investigative trip on behalf of and at the expense of the CIA and his country as a couple of days sitting around by the pool and drinking booze.

    Anyone who thinks that Joe Wilson's own description of what he did to investigate something as important as WMD intelligence gathering represents operations tactics and procedures of a person qualified to do such a job is either insane or in denial or both.

    Yup, I think you've turned me completely around on this now. Wilson's report has shown to be accurate. Not only accurate but our intelligence services had to issue an apology for ever using the infamous sixteen words in the president's SOTU speech. Saying they should have never been included in the speech. But, you're right...you imply that he may have been in pleasant surroundings when he investigated the claims. Well, that has me utterly convinced Wilson was totally unqualified to investigate and prove the yellowcake assertions wrong. I feel much better now.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Anonymous7:48 PM

    From shooter242 at 7:31PM:

    "In this particular case it was Bush's personal public case for his policy. As you say it's not above critique or correction, but one can be sure that if one calls the President a liar in the nation's paper of record, rebuttal will follow."

    So, deliberately revealing a CIA officer with a still-classified NOC is perfectly acceptable so long as its part of a 'rebuttal' defending a lie told to the American people by their highest elected official?

    Strange logic.

    "FISA is a product of fear that the fourth amendment will be shattered because of electronic surveillance. That's all well and good but meaningless if New York goes up in smoke."

    And we don't want 'the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud', right?

    My god. You really have bought that line, haven't you?

    "You folks can contemplate your legal navels all you like but the rest of the world doesn't care, particularly the parts that like killing Americans."

    Amusing. Why don't you just come out and advocate for the mass bombing of 'the rest of the world', that way we'll all be safe and sound.

    You really don't think about these things too deeply before you write them, do you? Pity. I was holding out hope you were more evolved than the Dog.

    And you're quote from Dworkin doesn't impress me either. Our country is in no greater danger today than it was on September 10th, 2001, save from these sorts of hysteronics.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Bart,
    Thanks for your replies in the previous thread.

    Do you have a cite for this?
    Given that all Iraq has ever traded with Niger is uranium...

    shooter242,
    In a previous thread you said.
    OTOH the NSA program is designed to scan for possible suspects. 
In short, how do you issue a warrant without knowing who to make it out for?

    I then pointed out this was not the administration's position.

    you then replied,
    Which brings up the next problem with the issue...what exactly is the nature of the program? We don't know, and discussing it in open forums is not good.

    Which seems to contradict an earlier statement you made.

    But...if there is no argument that the Government shouldn't eavesdrop on Al Qaeda, why isn't any of this energy expended to find a legal remedy to the problem?

    Do you believe the administration is lying to the public about the true nature of the program?

    Wasn't your statement about "the NSA program is designed to scan for possible suspects" in direct contradiction to your statement that "discussing it in open forums is not good"?

    ReplyDelete
  128. Anonymous9:47 PM

    one of the few loyal Bush defenders who are still around

    But . . . but . . . I thought your famous theory was that for nearly all conservatives, the whole raison d'etre of conservatism was now to defend Bush to the death, to participate in an authoritarian cult of worshipping Bush as the epitome of conservatism, etc., etc. Or maybe this is the famous second part of your theory: Conservatives are deserting Bush in droves.

    Guess you have your bases covered with that theory! No matter what happens, you will have "predicted" that conservatives were either going to support or oppose Bush.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous12:32 AM

    Seixon says :"So he was not sent on behalf of Cheney, and not on the initiative of the CIA, but the CIA made the decision to send him. LOL.

    Look, the CIA made the decision to send him. The "government" had nothing to do with sending Wilson. They asked the CIA a question, they never asked Wilson to be sent. They never even knew that Wilson had been sent."


    You are obviously not very smart...no matter how much you may tell yourself that every time you think you've got off a zinger...your ellision of the facts and oh-so-unsubtle restating of what hasn't been said and misinterpretation of what has been said is transparently a dope's tactic.

    Wilson was sent by the CIA in response to Cheney's request that the Niger rumor be checked out. In other words, ON BEHALF OF CHENEY. Cheney didn't approach Wilson, didn't select Wilson, didn't name him to be sent. Wilson never said Cheney asked him or in any way selected him, contrary to the lies of your peers (and perhaps of you). Cheney asked the CIA to look into Niger. The CIA selected Wilson and he was sent. The purpose was to answer a question for the VP's office, i.e., "the government." The CIA didn't initiate the idea out of thin air; it was a direct response to the VP's request that Niger be checked out.

    So, no Wilson advocate has said Wilson denied being sent by the government, as you falsely posit...in fact, that's what Wilson's supporters point out as the facts, in contrast to the lies that Wilson claimed to have been sent "by Cheney," as in, at Cheney's personal request.

    It's very simple and quite clear. You can continue to huff and puff and make yourself look ever more foolish, but, as others here have already pointed out--as if it needed to be--you perfectly illustrate the point of Glenn's column.

    ReplyDelete
  130. Anonymous12:36 AM

    I don't know as much about the Plame/Wilson affair as almost everyone else here does because I haven't spent as much time following it.

    Nevertheless, I will pop in with these two observations, in case anyone is interested in what a non-partisan person who hasn't been following the whole thing all that closely thinks.

    The words that "Dog" quotes as having been spoken by Wilson himself certainly do not strike me as particularly brilliant.

    They actually seem somewhat ridiculous.

    Could be because I don't know all the facts or could be because, as Dog points out, those statements of Wilson's should give any objective observer some pause.

    Also (this from direct observation) when I first saw Joseph Wilson on television, I was entirely underwhelmed with either his seriousness or his sincerity.

    He actually struck me as sort of a Clifford Irving figure.

    In addition, I heard with my own ears him saying (something vaguely to the effect) that some day the government should build something like a spy hero museum (I think that's what he said--if it wasn't, please do not accuse me of lying--it's just how I remember it) and he should have a prominent place in such a museum, like a James Bond or something.

    Then I pick up Vanity Fair and see him and his wife in sort of a "super spy" shot on the cover.

    My re-action was HUH? We are talking about a very, very serious issue here. So many Americans have been killed and maimed in Iraq, and according to the reports of the writers I trust the most, over 100,000 thousand Iraqis have lost their lives (forget about all the limbs and eyes and hands, etc.) most of whom were guilty of nothing more than being Iraqis caught in a cross fire of forces they didn't even understand.

    So I said to myself, why the hell is this guy posing for such a picture on the cover of Vanity Fair? What is this all about?

    I used to be a person who could find humor in almost anything (except injustice and causing physical pain and suffering to any sentient being). I really can't find any humor at all in what is happening in Iraq or this country as a matter of fact.

    As a human being who cares about other human beings, I was actually very offended by Joseph Wilson's seeming posture and I therefore was inclined to just write him off as just another "tool" of a corrupt government which was up to something I didn't know anything about and wouldn't likely find out enough true facts to ever know.

    Nobody else here noticed those things?
    I have also observed a certain tendency, no disrespect intended, for various regulars on this blog to be somewhat biased in their own views.

    They seem more readily willing to accept one interpretation of facts than another when I really can't see it's clear the facts themselves would definitely lead to the conclusions they appear to easily reach.

    The facts appear, to me, to be so confusing and inconclusive that virtually anything could be the truth.

    Are there actual Bush cultists?

    That's an easy one. Resoundingly yes. How do I know? There's one in my own family. Nothing Glenn has written goes far enough in describing how these types operate. Or the one in my family is perhaps the worst case in America? That's possible too. As a matter of fact, alas, I think that is indeed true.

    In the hundreds of exchanges between myself and this person before I stopped speaking to this person because I couldn't take it anymore, there wasn't one in which when I said the word "Bush" this person's response did not include the word "Clinton."

    I threatened to never speak to this person again if I could not get one response without the word "Clinton."

    I couldn't, so I don't.

    In this person's view, not a single thing Bush has done has been wrong with the sole exception of the Dubai Port Deal.

    That also gets swept away by focusing on Clinton's attempt to sell something to the Chinese, I forget what actually.

    Most of the other people in my own life who are serious Bush "cultists" are those lost to the Christian End Times Fundamentalist movement.

    Even when they were also mad at Bush because of the Port Deal, they decided it was not that important because the end times were coming and Jesus would take care of everything.

    Surely Bart, Dog, shooter, and seixon acknowledges such types are out there.

    Don't you?

    I did a survey of the hard core Bush base people in my own life, and they fall into four categories:

    l) The Religious Extremists. These people also hate all "Islamofascists" which they describe as almost every Muslim.

    2) The Personality Cultists, who are usally the "conservative Republican" strict partisans who adore Bush himself because they see him as a conservative Republican despite all evidence to the contrary.

    The next two groups are somewhat apolitical, and it occurs to be that Glenn's observations may focus more on the political types as those are the ones we hear from and read about most.

    3) The one issue people. Taxes. That's all the care about. These types read the Wall Street Journal, are assured that Bush is doing a fine job, and vote their pocketbooks without regard to any other issue. They don't really care.

    4) The neo-cons, who are often but not always 'Israel is always right don't bother me with the facts types.'

    If you add up the numbers, about half fall into Glenn's description of the "Bush cultist" profile, although each is a little different from everyone else in his own particular emphasis.

    How about the loyal Bush supporters in the personal lives of those who post on this blog? How would you describe the motivation behind their unswerving loyalty to Bush?

    We often write here about "this type" or "that type", but how about some specific observations about actual people you each know personally?

    ReplyDelete
  131. "The Dog":

    "In short, there's simply too much oversight over too small an industry for a sale to have transpired."

    Translation: There is no way a tin pot African Country's bureaucrats could be corrupt or just fooled. We all know and Joe Wilson especially knows tha bureaucrats can't be fooled and can't be corrupt.

    Brilliant Joe, Just Brilliant.

    Certainly brighter than you. He knows that the mining consortiums, which are not the gummints there, arethe ones that run and control the mines.

    OTOH, you RW foamers seem to make a lot of hay over what a gummint official's guess was (yes, it was a guess; the Iraqis never said what the purpose of the visit was) as to why they were there in 1999[IIRC]), so I'd say it's a bit hypocritical to accuse them of dishonesty as well.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  132. "The Dog" drips venom at those that would impugn his Fuehrer:

    The Joe Wilson mission from the beginning was designed to be at best a free vacation and at worst an incompetent exercise conduct in a highly incompetent manner under the direction of an incompetent CIA agent, directing her incompetent husband.

    A person whose gratest talent in life is pushing the power switch on a PC lectures a career diplomat and a hero (see, e.g., Wilson's work in Gulf War I, something you're too braindead to have ever heard of), not to mention arrogant enough to tell the whole fr***ing CIA how to do it's job.

    I'm going to be really glad when hateful and vicious p**cks like you are considered to be the loathsome vermin they are and are shunned by all polite company. I'd be even happier if a law is passed that makes any such people the conscripts for any future wars that they are so in love with, and makes them scrub the toilets with their own toothbrushes while waiting for it to happen.

    IOW, I've had it with your malign slanders here. Now get lost.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anonymous1:08 AM

    Eyes wide open:

    Wilson is certainly not lacking in a certain pomposity and high self-regard, but he has had a long career in the diplomatic services, going back to 1976, and he faced down Saddam Hussein just before the commencement of Desert Storm, when he sheltered over one hundred Americans in the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad and defied Hussein's threats to execute anyone sheltering foreigners. Ultimately, Hussein publicly apologized for his threat. Bush, Sr. called Wilson a hero for that.

    So, despite Wilson's character flaws--and who of us doesn't have them?--he's a far far better and braver man than GWBush or DICK Cheney, and more truthful both of them put together.

    In my defense of Wilson, and I think this is true of most of those who defend him against the slanderers in the Bush camp, I have never tried to paint him as a perfect man or a saint, or as a James Bond. But...most of the slanders against Wilson go back to his original NYTimes Op Ed column, and if you read that and compare it against the misrepresentation of it by those who have a vested interest in smearing him, one has to defend Wilson...if one has in interest in the truth.

    You can read Wilson's original op ed column here:

    http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0706-02.htm

    ReplyDelete
  134. Anonymous1:14 AM

    bart, you're an idiot. You wrote:

    1) The misnomer "reality based community" was a self identifier for secularists who opposed the "faith based community."

    100% Wrong. The phrase "reality based community" first appeared in a New York Times article by Ron Suskind (Oct. 17, 2004), in which he quoted an aide to George W. Bush who wished to remain anonymous. The quote follows:

    The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

    -- This is the origin of the phrase, as a single Google or Wikipedia search could have found. The reason it's had resonance is because the Bush administration's actions so often seem to be disconnected from reality (WMDs in Iraq! Saddam working with al-Qaeda! Private accounts will save Social Security! They'll greet us with flowers! For an example of three which were proven false long, long ago.)

    ReplyDelete
  135. northerner:

    But . . . but . . . I thought your famous theory was that for nearly all conservatives, the whole raison d'etre of conservatism was now to defend Bush to the death, to participate in an authoritarian cult of worshipping Bush as the epitome of conservatism, etc., etc. Or maybe this is the famous second part of your theory: Conservatives are deserting Bush in droves.

    Guess you have your bases covered with that theory! No matter what happens, you will have "predicted" that conservatives were either going to support or oppose Bush.

    Nah. We're just noting the interesting phenomenon (at least to clinical psychologists) that Dubya's appoval rating is more than a couple points above a flat zero percent. Hope that explains things.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous1:17 AM

    seixon:

    You discredit yourself by refering to Wilson as Plame's "lying husband".

    So far, everything Wilson said has proven to be true.

    Care to come back to the reality-based community?

    ReplyDelete
  137. Anonymous1:27 AM

    "He'll find the same amen corner, cheerleading and rooting for the home team that he finds on the Right"

    Well.... no.

    There are certainly a *few* leftists out there who act like anything anti-Bush is true by definition. Some of the people who keep insisting that the WTC was brought down by controlled demolition, despite the views of qualified structural engineers and explosives experts, fall into that category.

    But it's far from common, and they get ridiculed. By leftists.

    In contrast, I can only find two types of defenders of President Bush: those described by Glenn, and those who admit that they haven't really been paying attention to what's going on.

    There's a quantitative difference here. It would be an example of phony balance, of the sort which is grossly misleading, to discuss the rare and uninfluential left-wing cultists as if they were equivalent to the extremely common and influential Bush cultists.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Anonymous1:32 AM

    "Personally, I think the idiots on the Right are well matched by the amen corner of the Left"

    They're not, though: the idolators on the right are more numerous, louder, and more influential -- and most importantly, there aren't *any* Bush defenders left who *aren't* acting like Glenn described. (Certainly there are people left on the Right who aren't acting like Glenn described. They all hate Bush: see Pat Buchanan.)

    Take a look through unbiased eyes. Weigh up the evidence. Your personal thought is just... wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Anonymous1:35 AM

    yankeependragon said...

    So, deliberately revealing a CIA officer with a still-classified NOC is perfectly acceptable so long as its part of a 'rebuttal' defending a lie told to the American people by their highest elected official?

    Sorry Yank but I don't agree that Plame was mentioned in any other capacity than as an operative until Wilson started talking about her. Needless to say the unwillingness of Fitzgerald to address her in terms other than "classified" leave her out in the cold. Nor do I agree that Bush lied. He may have been wrong, but he didn't lie.

    And we don't want 'the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud', right?
    My god. You really have bought that line, haven't you?


    Which part of Iran's race for a nuke are you ignoring? Considering Pakistan, Islam already has the bomb. Has that not registered?

    Our country is in no greater danger today than it was on September 10th, 2001, save from these sorts of hysteronics.

    Said like a man living in the boonies and far from conflict. I can see NYC from my deck. In other words, my posterior is actually on the line. You may live in a pre-9/11 world, but a goodly number of us don't have that luxury.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous1:38 AM

    "How widely read was Novak's column?"

    Extremely widely read. It was nationally syndicated.

    Yet more proof that the Bush defenders will deny any fact in order to defend Dear Leader.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Anonymous1:47 AM

    thelastnamechosen said:
    you then replied,
    Which brings up the next problem with the issue...what exactly is the nature of the program? We don't know, and discussing it in open forums is not good.
    Which seems to contradict an earlier statement you made.


    Somebody brought up a supported point that my earlier characterization was wrong. I can certainly accept that possibility.

    But...if there is no argument that the Government shouldn't eavesdrop on Al Qaeda, why isn't any of this energy expended to find a legal remedy to the problem?
    Do you believe the administration is lying to the public about the true nature of the program?


    If I were the government I certainly would, but what does that have to do with figuring out how to make the program legal?

    Wasn't your statement about "the NSA program is designed to scan for possible suspects" in direct contradiction to your statement that "discussing it in open forums is not good"?

    I'm not talking about anything that wasn't brought up elsewhere. The damage is done, now is the time to see what can be done to salvage the legalities.

    ReplyDelete
  142. Anonymous1:48 AM

    shooter242 wrote:

    "I'll go along with you and say that the program may very well be illegal. Feel better? Good. Now I'm going to say I don't care if it is."

    Good. One more Bush supporter has admitted that s/he doesn't give a damn about the rule of law, and supports the elevation of Bush to dictatorship. It's good to get these people out in the open, so that they can be completely discredited.

    You do know, I hope, that Congress *asked* Bush, after 9/11, if he wanted additional changes to FISA, if he found it too restrictive, and he said "No." Then he proceeded to simply break the law.

    Which route would a responsible person who cared about the Constitution have taken? Amend the law so that it allows you to do what you want legally -- or just break it?

    Bush choose the latter.

    ReplyDelete
  143. Anonymous1:50 AM

    Incidentally, "the Dog", mint tea is non-alcoholic. Calling it "booze" is inaccurate.

    Try the reality-based community; you might like it.

    ReplyDelete
  144. Anonymous1:57 AM

    shooter242 wrote:


    Ronald Dworkin, the distinguished legal philosopher and constitutional theorist, wrote in The New York Review of Books in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks that “we cannot allow our Constitution and our shared sense of decency to become a suicide pact.”

    This is an un-American point of view. The Constitution was not a suicide pact -- but the Declaration of Independence essentially *was*.
    http://blogs.salon.com/0001823/2004/07/04.html

    You and Dworkin, according to Dworkin's logic, would have opposed the Declaration of Independence, and supported the rulership of King George.

    Well, no surprise you support a new King George then! But please think about your views more carefully: do you *really* believe these fundamentally anti-American ideas? And if so, although you have the right to express those ideas, why should we listen to you?

    ReplyDelete
  145. Anonymous2:03 AM

    "But . . . but . . . I thought your famous theory was that for nearly all conservatives, the whole raison d'etre of conservatism was now to defend Bush to the death, to participate in an authoritarian cult of worshipping Bush as the epitome of conservatism, etc., etc."


    "Or maybe this is the famous second part of your theory: Conservatives are deserting Bush in droves."

    "Guess you have your bases covered with that theory! No matter what happens, you will have "predicted" that conservatives were either going to support or oppose Bush."

    Well, let's add a prediction to make the theory a little less tautological.

    (1) Those conservatives who oppose Bush will admit many, if not all, of the facts, even if those facts disagree with their previous views. They will also be angry and/or disenchanted with the Republican Party as a whole, because it is so tied to Bush's cult.
    (2) Meanwhile, every conservative who still supports Bush will go out of their way to deny any fact which makes him seem bad.

    Yep, seems like those predictions are correct so far.

    ReplyDelete
  146. Anonymous2:11 AM

    "Republicans, Democrats, Bush supporters and haters, Americans, how did we get to this un-thinking place? How did we get here?"

    Well, Bush's well-documented suppression and doctoring of scientific research was a start. (See Union of Concerned Scientists, Henry Waxman's website, etc.)

    The Republican elevation of "faith" over science certainly helped discourage thinking. (See the hostility to the HPV vaccine, etc.)

    The administration telling people that they need to "watch what they say", referring specifically to unpopular views (not to revealing classified information), certainly helped.

    But all of this is recent. It must have started earlier, before the 2000 election, when the press did such an appalling job of coverage, describing the whole thing as a horse race, failing to describe the genuine differences between Bush and Gore (such as on the environment), and allowing Bush to spew total lies with no corrections, while allowing fabricated attacks on Gore (he did *not* claim to have invented the Internet) to go unquestioned.

    Oh, I don't know when it started. But it is clearly unfair to tar Democrats with the same brush as Republicans. The Republican Party (with rare honorable exceptions like Ron Paul) has been actively encouraging, even demanding, this unthinking behavior. The Democratic Party is not.

    ReplyDelete
  147. seixon:

    Which newspapers did Novak's column appear in? I can't seem to find any media sources having carried it.

    Google is your friend. Novak is syndicated through Creator's Syndicate (www.creators.com) and appears in newspapers throughout the country, and the article appeared in the Washington Post amongst other papers. Now that's the last of that; next time you have to see if you can figure out how to do a search all on your own. Hopefully it won't bee too challenging for your level of ability....

    Care to tell me what newspapers carried Corn's column? My guess is no; you, as would any dutiful RW foamer, will ignore the fact you've been shown to be a clueless berk and move on.

    More cluelessness:

    Oh, let's not forget Cooper's column in TIME. Tell me TIME doesn't have an audience. Do it.

    No, I won't, but what did Matt Cooper (not exactly a member of the VLWC) say?

    Here ya go:

    And some government officials have noted to TIME in interviews, (as well as to syndicated columnist Robert Novak) that Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, is a CIA official who monitors the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.

    So yes, let's not forget this; Libby, Rove and the rest of the maladministration thugs were outing Plame to whoever they could get to listen (and hopefully spread the ad hominem). Not exactly sure why you're making my case for me; were you drinking or just stoopid?

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous2:16 AM

    Someone who drank the kool-aid wrote: "I mean, Saddam and al Qaeda are laughing their asses off."

    Actually, al Qaeda is. Their recruitment is way up thanks to Iraq. bin Laden is still sending out "death to America" videos quite happily, and is now threatening another attack on the US (as he did before 9/11). The Taliban -- al Qaeda's one admitted ally -- is slowly taking over Afghanistan again. Terrorist attacks are up worldwide (according to the U.S. State department).

    Bush has been the best thing for al-Qaeda since 9/11. And the worst thing for the US.

    Please, come back to the reality-based community.

    ReplyDelete
  149. Anonymous2:18 AM

    "Which newspapers did Novak's column appear in?"

    Start with the New York Post. I believe the Chicago Sun-Times also (not sure).

    These are not small papers.

    ReplyDelete
  150. The brain-dead seixon continues:

    [Arne]: He [Wilson] may have been told that he should say that [he wasn't on the CIA's tab], for any number of reasons.

    Yes, such as implicating the Bush administration in having sent him. Good boy, you're starting to get it. LOL.

    Such as not putting the CIA's fingerprints on such things. Such as not getting his wife in trouble or placed under suspicion. IOW, the standard "official cover" that many of the actual regular CIA employees use abroad: "I'm working for the gummint..."

    *sheesh* You're pretty damn slow. Or just a rather pathetic troll.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  151. seixon:

    I do all my own work, thanks.

    Ummmmmm ... it shows.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  152. Anonymous2:32 AM

    Sane person:
    And we don't want 'the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud', right?
    My god. You really have bought that line, haven't you?


    Kool-aid drinker:
    Which part of Iran's race for a nuke are you ignoring?

    Very important point here. There's no reason to believe that Iran would nuke the US. Iran's President -- who is not known for mincing his words, and in fact occasionally seems to be frothing-at-the-mouth crazy -- has explicitly said that even if they had a nuke, they would not attack the US unless attacked first.

    It is eminiently logical for Iran to want a nuke. After all, Iraq had no nukes, and the US invaded and trashed it. North Korea had nukes, so the US didn't mess with it. If Iran is trying to get a nuke, they are trying to get it as a deterrent.

    Given the rumors from top generals that Bush is considering a nuclear first strike on Iran, I'd want a nuke too! That stuff is batshit crazy: a nuclear first strike has been ruled out by all civilized nations, and pretty much all uncilivized nations too. Even the US ruled it out, except in the case of a massive conventional invasion of Western Europe by the USSR. Until Bush.

    I don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud -- the smoking gun which proves to the remainder of the American People that Bush is dangerously deranged and must be removed, that is!

    ReplyDelete
  153. shooter242:

    [yankeependragon]: So, deliberately revealing a CIA officer with a still-classified NOC is perfectly acceptable so long as its part of a 'rebuttal' defending a lie told to the American people by their highest elected official?

    Sorry Yank but I don't agree that Plame was mentioned in any other capacity than as an operative...

    IOW, part of the CIA Directorate of Operations, the spook branch, as opposed an "analyst" (or more demeaningly, a "desk jockey"), as the RW Mighty Wurlitezer is still untruthfully trying to paint Plame as.

    And you missed this little part of Novak's column:

    "Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an agency operative on weapons of mass destruction."

    Not only her employer and her position, but also her mission. Good job there, Bob.....

    I'm a bit surprised you applaud this behaviour, Shooter. Care to explain why?

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  154. Anonymous3:01 AM

    CarolynC said...

    "It's not just during the last five years that the right has gotten it wrong, because they refuse to consider unpleasant facts. These same folks have been at it for decades, and the failed policies of today are based on the distortions that occurred back then.
    I think of the war in Vietnam."

    Sorry to burst your bubble but it was Johnson and the Democrats that escalated the war in Viet Nam.

    ReplyDelete
  155. Shooter242,

    I am not sure if I understand your reply. Let me try again with a little less prosecutorial zeal.

    Do you believe the NSA program involves datamining?

    Myself, I think that is a fair guess. There isn't much, if any, direct evidence but I think it is logical speculation.

    When you said...
    Somebody brought up a supported point that my earlier characterization was wrong. I can certainly accept that possibility.

    Were you referring to my post which stated the administration's denial?

    In response to my question...
    "Do you believe the administration is lying to the public about the true nature of the program?"

    You replied...
    If I were the government I certainly would, but what does that have to do with figuring out how to make the program legal?

    First, I hope you realize that in order to make the program legal we must know how the program works. Unless we grant the President the ability to spy on anyone, for any reason he wants, which certainly will not be possible unless we amend the constitution, we have to know how the program works.

    If you are going to have a rational conversation about making the program legal you need to cede this basic point.

    Second, if the government is lying about the nature of the program, we cannot know how the program works. Again, if you are going to have a rational conversation about making the program legal you need to cede this basic point.

    Can you expound upon why, if you were George Bush, you would lie about the true nature of the program to the public. Also, would you, if you were George Bush, consider it appropriate to lie to the Supreme Court about the program?

    ReplyDelete
  156. You know, there's a certain karmic justice in the fact that a post from Glenn about how impervious to facts the RW foamer battalions are induces these very same people to flood the thread with ignorant missives that demonstrate without a doubt that Glenn was spot-on.

    Say, Glenn, care to elaborate on the curious fact that these people are so blindly unaware of how others see them that they haven't the foggiest clue they're doing this? I personally am of the opinion that these people have a deficit of introspective ability and an inability to place themselves in the shoes of others, and I think this is a distinct type of pathology, separate from mere obliviousness to facts that run contrary to their hopes and prejudices (hopefully Colbert helped at least Dubya out on this count last Saturday). Care to comment?

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  157. Anonymous4:28 AM

    Shooter242 said:

    It may or may not be illegal. As I understand it, we don't know the exact nature of what's being done and how it fits in with the law. If you really, really, really, want to be right, I'll go along with you and say that the program may very well be illegal. Feel better? Good. Now I'm going to say I don't care if it is. FISA is a product of fear that the fourth amendment will be shattered because of electronic surveillance. That's all well and good but meaningless if New York goes up in smoke.

    Ah the final argument. He didn't break the law. We don't know enough to know if he broke the law. And even if he did break the law it was to protect us.

    Of course you are ignoring the fact that only 2 to 5 percent of the cargo containers that enter our ports are actually inspected for say an A bomb. And the fact that somewhere between 1 and 3 million (nobody is sure exactly how many because we don't even come close to catching them all) people cross our southern border every year. 85,000 of them that we know about being from countries other than Mexico. People from all over the world including the Middle East. Any one of which could be carrying a small suitcase with a nuke, or a biological, or a chemical weapon in it.

    But hey, George is protecting us by listening to all of our phone calls and reading our e-mail without bothering to get a warrant or inform the full intelligence oversight committees.

    ReplyDelete
  158. Anonymous5:10 AM

    I noticed some posts by kevin hayden and ken solo (and others) on the other thread which I thought were really great and I hope they post more here.

    Below is an excellent article that everyone should read, especially bart, shooter, seixon and dog.

    Isn't this really what it is all about? How come some people just don't see this? What's the matter, don't they have a conscience?

    Hideous Kinky


    Imagine growing up in a family where every day, father raped daughter, mother tortured son, brother abused brother, sister stole from sister and the whole family murdered neighbors, friends and passing strangers. Imagine the underlying assumptions about life that you would adopt without question in such an atmosphere, how normal the most hideous depravity would seem. If some outsider chanced to ask you about your family's latest activities, you would spew out perversions as calmly and unthinkingly as a man giving directions to the post office.

    This state of unwitting confession to monstrous crime has been the default mode of the U.S. establishment for many years now. Government officials routinely detail policies that in a healthy atmosphere would shake the nation to its core, stand out like a gaping wound, a rank betrayal of every hope, ideal and sacrifice of generations past. Yet in the degraded sensibility of these times, such confessions go unnoticed, their evil unrecognized – or even lauded as savvy ploys or noble endeavors. Inured to moral horror by half a century of outrages committed by the "National Security" complex, the establishment, along with the media and vast swathes of the population, can no longer discern the poison in the air they breathe. It just seems normal.

    And so it was again this week when The Washington Post outlined the Pentagon's plan to put dirty war – by death squad, snatch squad, secret armies, subversion, torture and terrorism – at the very heart of America's military philosophy. Not defense against declared enemies, not deterrence of potential foes, but conducting "continuous" covert military operations in countries "where the United States is not at war" is now the Pentagon's "highest priority," according to the new "campaign plan for the global war on terror" issued by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.


    It goes on and is a terrific article.

    BTW, Cynic Librarian and armegednoutahere: I think you are two very wise people and you really tell it like it is. Thanks.

    PS. Did anyone read that new cover story yet in US World and News Report called something like THE SPY AMONG US?

    ReplyDelete
  159. Anonymous9:18 AM

    thelastnamechosen said:
    Do you believe the NSA program involves datamining?
    Myself, I think that is a fair guess. There isn't much, if any, direct evidence but I think it is logical speculation.


    I don't really know what is being done or how, pretty much like everyone else. The informational point I was reponding to, was a statement by General Hayden, former head of NSA I believe.

    You replied...
    If I were the government I certainly would, but what does that have to do with figuring out how to make the program legal?
    First, I hope you realize that in order to make the program legal we must know how the program works. Unless we grant the President the ability to spy on anyone, for any reason he wants, which certainly will not be possible unless we amend the constitution, we have to know how the program works.


    OK, now I can see why I wasn't comprehending your point. I presume you are familiar with the story about the CIA being able to track OBL by way of his satellite phone, until that info was published and he changed his method of communication? (Yes, I understand that it is now considered urban legend, but the illustration is still valid.) I also presume that you understand the implications of making the NSA program public as well?

    Fortunately, the program is not totally secret, since it is revealed to ranking members of the appropriate Congressional committees. I'm afraid you'll have to rely on their judgement as to the value and intrusiveness of the Program. It's certainly good enough for me. As for the Supreme Court, I trust that the nine members can keep a secret as well.

    Second, if the government is lying about the nature of the program, we cannot know how the program works. Again, if you are going to have a rational conversation about making the program legal you need to cede this basic point.

    Then I guess we'll just leave it as is, since it can't be proven to be illegal without going public. If I were a Democratic President though, I suppose I'd make the argument that all these communications are by way of public infrastructure, and as such are subject to inspection. I wouldn't be surprised to see that come up soon.

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous9:32 AM

    Armagednoutahere says:
    So seixon's claim is complete horseshit. Glenn makes it clear he doesn't know whether Shuster is right. He only says, (and from your posts his words seem to describe you exactly) that Bush fanatics can't even allow the possibility that Shuster might be correct. So you decide its somehow to your advantage to prove him right.

    On the other hand it is illustrative of the Bush hater zeal, that any possible wrong, even if acknowledged as unproven or even dubious, is occasion to launch into a verbal jihad. It's much like a verbal force field where no possible positive energy from the right can get through. That action pretty much says it all.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Anonymous10:02 AM

    Gris Lobo said:
    Ah the final argument. He didn't break the law. We don't know enough to know if he broke the law. And even if he did break the law it was to protect us.

    Of course you are ignoring the fact that only 2 to 5 percent of the cargo containers that enter our ports are actually inspected for say an A bomb. And the fact that somewhere between 1 and 3 million (nobody is sure exactly how many because we don't even come close to catching them all) people cross our southern border every year.


    This is ironry at it's finest. You're arguing that the number of searches currently conducted on cargo and persons entering the US are not comprehensive enough. Did you consider that all those inspections are warrantless?
    Well I agree, it's not enough, which is why warrantless searches of information should be added to the arsenal.

    Not only are persons and cargo subject to warrantless searches entering the country, here is a list of other occasions where a warrant is not needed.
    http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200512201735.asp

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous10:31 AM

    Eyes Wide Open said...
    Imagine growing up in a family where every day, father raped daughter, mother tortured son, brother abused brother, sister stole from sister and the whole family murdered neighbors, friends and passing strangers.

    I was just going to let this pass, but it's so vile an analogy that I have to comment.
    Apparently your eyes are only open to the sins of America and have no idea what happens in the real world. This is not Sunnybrook Farm. It is only because Americans have it so good that people like you have the time and freedom to come up with this garbage. And it is garbage. It's verbiage so loaded with emotional connotations that one cannot help but feel queasy about it and the association of it with the US. You are being manipulated by feelings. Those feelings are real but the relevance to reality isn't.

    Here's a classic example that I have used elsewhere. You recall the emotionally charged pictures coming from the Superdome in New Orleans after Katrina, yes. And I'm sure you have heard the recriminations of FEMA and what a terrible job it did along with the administration, yes. And I'll bet that you have blamed the Superdome victims on Bush, yes? Well, that aspect of Katrina is not true.

    In fact, the Red Cross and Salvation Army were poised to go to the Superdome, but blocked by order of the Louisiana Governor. Why? Because she didn't want anyone else going there. That's it, that's all. Suffering by decree of a Democrat. Hopefully at this point you're outraged, but probably at me. Maybe you'll believe video interviews of the heads of those organizations.
    http://thepoliticalteen.com/video/mgarrett23.wmv

    Think about this the next time you let your feelings run away with you. Usually it's the case that if someone tugs at your heartstrings, it's because it's the only argument available.

    ReplyDelete
  163. Anonymous10:36 AM

    From shooter242 at 1:35AM:

    "Said like a man living in the boonies and far from conflict. I can see NYC from my deck. In other words, my posterior is actually on the line."

    For the record, I actually live in NYC. And, but for a small quirk in my morning commute that day, I would have been in the towers when those planes hit. My wife and I both saw those towers collapse and lost people we knew.

    Please don't presume you know a damn thing, either about me or what 'risk' really is, especially as my family and I still live in the City itself while you are safely across the river.

    I've also studied terrorism since April 19, 1995 (I don't need to explain the significance of that date, do I?), and recognize both its potentials and its limitations. Unlike yourself and other hysteronics, I recognize there is about as much chance of Bin Laden or his ilk toppling America as there is of another destroyer comet hitting the Earth within the next week (possible, but supremely remote).

    Thanks for confirming any earlier suspicion of mine, btw. Feel free to crawl out from under the bed anytime now.

    As to your concern over Iran's nuclear program, while I share it, I also acknowledge most estimates have it as years away from bearing fruit. And Pakistan has eyes only for keeping India at bay while keeping itself reasonable stable.

    Try looking at the world a little more objectively, and maybe you won't embarrass yourself with such depressing regularity.

    Oh, and concerning the Plame investigation? Its still ongoing, so I'd suggest you hold your tongue until Mr. Fitzgerald says he's actually finished.

    ReplyDelete
  164. Anonymous11:19 AM

    Yankeependragon says:
    Unlike yourself and other hysteronics, I recognize there is about as much chance of Bin Laden or his ilk toppling America as there is of another destroyer comet hitting the Earth within the next week (possible, but supremely remote).

    Shifting the subject I see. I would agree about America, not so NYC. But maintain that denial, it will indeed make you feel better.

    As to your concern over Iran's nuclear program, while I share it, I also acknowledge most estimates have it as years away from bearing fruit. And Pakistan has eyes only for keeping India at bay while keeping itself reasonable stable.

    There's an awful lot of assumptions in there, not the least entertaining is the reliance on "intelligence". Isn't this info coming from the same folks that didn't even know there was an Iran program 'lo these many years?

    Try looking at the world a little more objectively, and maybe you won't embarrass yourself with such depressing regularity. Oh, and concerning the Plame investigation? Its still ongoing, so I'd suggest you hold your tongue until Mr. Fitzgerald says he's actually finished.

    Tsk.

    ReplyDelete
  165. Anonymous11:42 AM

    From shooter242 at 11:19AM:

    "Shifting the subject I see. I would agree about America, not so NYC. But maintain that denial, it will indeed make you feel better."

    Oh, so now we're worried about *just* New York City? And no response that I'm a resident? Don't worry, I didn't expect one.

    Look, the City is a target, yes. And a damned big one. I've known that since I moved here. So too is Washington DC, Philadelphia, Chicago, LA, San Francisco, OK City, Hackensack NJ, La Crosse WI, and every other city and town in the continential US. That's the beauty and horror of terrorism: it can hit anyone anywhere.

    Continue to hide under the bed if that's what makes *you* feel better. The rest of us will keep living our lives despite the danger. After all, its still statistically more likely one will be killed by someone you know than in another 9/11-type attack.

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  166. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  167. shooter242:

    This is ironry at it's finest. You're arguing that the number of searches currently conducted on cargo and persons entering the US are not comprehensive enough. Did you consider that all those inspections are warrantless?
    Well I agree, it's not enough, which is why warrantless searches of information should be added to the arsenal.


    The problem is that Dubya's NSA program apparently sweeps in purely domestic conversations. In addition, they claim the ability to "target" people within the U.S., who may have never left the country, without a warrant. While it's arguable whether the Fourth Amendment applies to conversations intercepted abroad of which "target" a U.S. person, if that's the problem here and the Fourth Amendment doesn't apply, then change the FISA law insetad of violating it. The FISA law was passed in response to abuses by the CIA and NSA through the '60s and '70s as exposed by the Church and Pike committees (see James Bamford's fine book "The Puzzle Palace" for the grimy details). IOW, "mend it, don't end it." As has been pointed out, FISA allows even the domestic wiretaps ... if you can show good reason ... and get a warrant. Fourth Amendment intact.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  168. One last thought on this imperviousness to fact, Glenn: It's not limited to the Dubya supporters, it infests the maladministration itself!

    Perhaps the most cutting part of Colbert's routine last Saturday was this little gem:

    "The greatest thing about this man is he's steady. You know where he stands. He believes the same thing Wednesday that he believed on Monday, no matter what happened Tuesday."

    While the U.N. inspectors in Iraq were calling the U.S. "intelligence" about WoMD "garbage, garbage, and more garbage" (some have reported they used a more scatalogical term), and were spending their days looking at "hidden SCUD" sites and finding literally chickens*** (one such building was a chicken farm), and while el Baradei demonstrated within a day, using that modern weapon of defence analysts, Google, that the Niger documents were cheap forgeries, this information didn't once give pause to the maladministration's plans to invade. Any rational person would say, "umm, waiddaminnit ... maybe we ought to hold off and see what the truth really is". But not Dubya or his maladministration. Full speed ahead, the facts be damned.

    The maladministration worked hard to ignore any facts counter to their preconceived notions, and to establish the ones they favoured as engraved in gold..

    Similarly with global warming. Similarly with troop numbers. Similarly with "Plan B". Similarly with budget numbers. Similarly with Katrina. The list just goes on and on. Similarly with Terry Schiavo. Similarly with "intellignet design". The list goes on and on....

    The maladministration itself is completely impervious to facts; it's not just the foamers and sycophants. I agree that the foamers and sycophants pose a bit of a quandary for long-term democratic processes in this country. Seixon, "Shooter242", "Dog", and "Bart" are annoying but ultimately pretty harmless. But the maladministration's obliviousness to truth is a much more immediate and compelling problem; they're the ones running the gummint, spending our tax dollars, and with their finger on the button. Maybe you ought to post on that.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  169. Anonymous12:39 PM

    From seixon at 11:16AM:

    "For ME, this has everything to do with Shuster, and nothing to do with anything else. Try to get it through your rabidly partisan heads."

    Good compartmentalization. Attack the messenger, appropriately in some respects, and ignore the actual story.

    Now, get *this* through you head:

    1. Valerie Wilson's position and work at the CIA were legally classified.

    2. Her husband's investigation in Niger on the yellowcake story was entirely above-board, not some James-Bond-esque nonsense. There is NO evidence he was selected for this based purely on his wife's say-so.

    3. He accurately presented his findings and made them public only when the President presented a factually inaccurate story in the STOU.

    4. Mrs. Wilson was subsequently 'outed' by Robert Novak's column as both an officer in the CIA and someone who worked on WMD issues; this blew her NOC and laid bare any and all her contacts overseas.

    5. At this time, the full damage this did to US intelligence gather assets is unknown to the public (with damned good reason), and recent revelations notwithstanding, the investigation into the matter by Mr. Fitzgerald is still ongoing. The full picture may, in fact, never be known.

    6. You can criticize the source of recent stories all you wish; that is your right as a US citizen.

    You are equally free to simply ignore the larger issues involved here, including the potential damage done to US intelligence work at this increasingly dangerous point in our history. That, too, is your right.

    But don't expect the rest of us to actually follow you down your private rabbit hole of ignorance. We actually take this stuff seriously.

    ReplyDelete
  170. Anonymous9:29 AM

    From seixon at 12:57PM:

    "That you take anything coming out of David Shuster's mouth seriously will have to be your own downfall. You won't have me falling for that one, sorry."

    Actually, I give Shuster's story no more credit than I give the latest press releases from either the RNC or DNC: a healthy degree of skepticism coupled with the knowledge there might be some factual truth to them.

    That said, you are quite correct the CIA has declined to publically state how much or little damage has been done to our intelligence networks thanks to Novak revealing Mrs. Wilson, thus leaving nothing but outright speculation on it. I personally take no position there and have heard nothing from any knowledgable source. Admirable restraint in my opinion, particularly for a gossip-prone environment like inside the Beltway.

    I will grant I don't know definitively Mrs. Wilson's contacts were compromised or blown, but simple common sense would suggest that once her employer was known and a couple dots were connected (i.e. her picture recognized or maiden name become known), the business front and all its contacts would immediately become suspect and whatever intelligence flow they might have generated would immediately stop. Try actually thinking about this before responding again.

    And tell me again how the main thrust of Ambassador Wilson's investigations (that Iraq did NOT either procure nor seriously pursue a purchase of yellowcake uranium from Niger) was in any way mistaken or proven incorrect.

    Does the man have a tendency to shoot his mouth off? Unfortunately yes. Does that wreck his creditability on the issue? No.

    ReplyDelete
  171. Anonymous10:52 AM

    From Greenwald:

    What facts did Maguire offer to support his belief that this story is untrue, other than (a) Shuster is an idiot and liar and (b) Woodward and Mitchell (whose credibility he has questioned before when it suited him) said it wasn't true?

    Well, as to Shuster being an idiot and liar, I cited two specific, recent stories Shuster did on Plame/Libby/Cheney that can best be explained by a theory that he is an idiot and a liar.

    The alternative view, that he is slanting stuff to please Chris Matthews new friends on the left, is also a strong possibility.

    I have also added Dana Priest to the list of reporters who didn't see any great harm from the Plame leak:

    Dana Priest: I don't actually think the Plame leak compromised national security, from what I've been able to learn about her position.

    I figured folks who happily disqualify Woodward and Mitchell will have a harder time with her.

    Well, folks who follow the link provided in the post will see that; I don't infer from my traffic stats that many are doing so. Some might describe that as typical behavior for the "Sheltered from reality-based community", but not me!

    More from Greenwald:

    I don't agree. To me, he is a lot like Glenn Reynolds (who, unsurprisingly, has a great affinity for the way Maguire posts). They try very hard to work behind a veneer of passive-aggressive reasonableness, but it only masks, not alters, the irrationality.

    Does anyone know what Greenwald bills for the psychological counseling? And is he licensed - his background is in law?

    My favorite comment is still this, posted heroically and anonymously:

    So far, everything Wilson said has proven to be true.

    Care to come back to the reality-based community?


    Everything he said, except the misquotes and misattributions, that is.

    WARNING - let me advise that "Sheltered from Reality" crowd that what follows is a Weekly Standard link about Wilson.

    Tom Maguire

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  172. Anonymous10:57 AM

    FWIW, Shuster's follow up report represents a recycling of a Josh MArshall post from last fall.

    Shorter Marshall - "They KNEW Plame was covert. UPDARTE: Well, not so much".

    But Shuster keeps breaking 'em and his target market keeps buying.

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  173. Anonymous11:42 AM

    From Tom Maguire at 10:52AM:

    "Everything he said, except the misquotes and misattributions, that is."

    I see. So its now been established that Iraq was indeed seriously pursuing purchasing yellowcake uranium from Niger?

    Forget Shuster and Wilson's tendency to exaggerate a bit. Has the core story been disproven?

    THAT is what you should be asking yourself, provided of course you're willing to actually examine the facts.

    And please don't go quoting the Weekly Standard from two years ago as evidence of how reprehensible a lying Wilson supposedly is. This is the same crowd that was screaming the bottom was about to fall out of Social Security a couple years back.

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  174. Anonymous1:21 PM

    Yankeependragon,

    That Standard Article was one of the few written about Wilson's sworn testimony in front of the Senate Intelligence committee.

    The Senate Committee is where he described his anonymous exaggerations and lies to Kristoff and Pincus as "a little literary flair" as well as putting the misattributions on Kristoff and Pincus. (I wonder what the reporters thought of that?) It was also after this testimony and the release of the Senate report that Wilson was dropped from the Kerry campaign as a foreign policy advisor.

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