Tuesday, May 02, 2006

Time to stop feeling guilty and start really bombing

(updated below)

The Wall St. Journal's Opinion Journal today published an Op-Ed by Shelby Steele that advances one of the most truly incoherent and just plain inane arguments I have read in a long time. And in response, many pro-war Bush defenders are drooling with reverence and praise, and for some reason, are viewing Steele's piece as some sort of license to unleash some of the truly ugly impulses which they usually have the decency, or at least political sense, to hide.

The crux of Steele's argument is that ever since World War II, the United States just doesn't fight wars the way we used to, and ought to. We don't use enough force because we suffer from excess restraint. And the reason we are too restrained is because we are laboring under an unwarranted sense of "white guilt," whereby we are too eager and desperate to escape from our distant racist past and prove that we aren't trying to subjugate the "brown people" anymore. As a result, when we fight wars against countries predominantly composed of other races, we are too nice and don't use enough military force, and as a result, we don't win anymore. If you think I'm unfairly summarizing Steele's argument, just marvel at these excerpts:

Certainly since Vietnam, America has increasingly practiced a policy of minimalism and restraint in war. And now this unacknowledged policy, which always makes a space for the enemy, has us in another long and rather passionless war against a weak enemy.

Why this new minimalism in war?

It began, I believe, in a late-20th-century event that transformed the world more profoundly than the collapse of communism: the world-wide collapse of white supremacy as a source of moral authority, political legitimacy and even sovereignty. . . .

The collapse of white supremacy--and the resulting white guilt--introduced a new mechanism of power into the world: stigmatization with the evil of the Western past. And this stigmatization is power because it affects the terms of legitimacy for Western nations and for their actions in the world. In Iraq, America is fighting as much for the legitimacy of its war effort as for victory in war. In fact, legitimacy may be the more important goal.

If a military victory makes us look like an imperialist nation bent on occupying and raping the resources of a poor brown nation, then victory would mean less because it would have no legitimacy. Europe would scorn. Conversely, if America suffered a military loss in Iraq but in so doing dispelled the imperialist stigma, the loss would be seen as a necessary sacrifice made to restore our nation's legitimacy. Europe's halls of internationalism would suddenly open to us.

As always, Steele is quick to remind us how very courageous he is for making such a taboo argument:

Today words like "power" and "victory" are so stigmatized with Western sin that, in many quarters, it is politically incorrect even to utter them. For the West, "might" can never be right. And victory, when won by the West against a Third World enemy, is always oppression. But, in reality, military victory is also the victory of one idea and the defeat of another. Only American victory in Iraq defeats the idea of Islamic extremism. But in today's atmosphere of Western contrition, it is impolitic to say so. . .

This is a fact that must be integrated into our public life--absorbed as new history-so that America can once again feel the moral authority to seriously tackle its most profound problems. Then, if we decide to go to war, it can be with enough ferocity to win.

In other words, the reason we failed to win in Korea, lost in Vietnam, and are bogged down in Iraq is because we are too afraid to do the right thing -- use all-out military force against our Enemies. We are too timid in our wars because we are afraid of people accusing of us of being racist, of inflaming our white guilt, of provoking criticism from Europeans. So instead, we leave the kid gloves on and don't use our full military might the way we should.

Now, from what I can tell, the only military force we are refraining from using in Iraq is full-scale carpet bombings where we eradicate a few cities, or using tactical nuclear weapons. Calls for fewer restraints on how we are fighting in Iraq would almost certainly have to include one or both of those tactics. And the war mongers among the Bush supporters, those who are prostrating themselves before the brilliance of Steele's "thesis," are calling for exactly that. The courageous warrior Jeff Goldstein knows what needs to be done -- and like Steele, he's not afraid to say it:

But compassionate conservatism, whatever you think of the concept domestically, clearly shouldn’t extend to war—and there are times when the international equivalent of Sherman’s march through the South would, in the long run, save American soldier’s lives and foreshorten the conflict.

Which is why there are times when we really should turn off the “smart” bombs and show our seriousness by putting the world on notice that, when we believe the situation calls for it, we are willing to ignore the inevitable bad press and the howls of protest from human rights groups, and exhibit a show of strength and military professionalism that is politically disinterested and tactically thorough and lethal.

Of course, no one wishes to see innocent civilians die (only the unserious make the claim that those who support what they consider to be a necessary war somehow luxuriate in collateral deaths). But at the same time, from a practical standpoint, there is nothing wrong with fighting a war as if it is a war—and sometimes the only way to disabuse the enemy of the notion that we are constrained by a moral calculus that makes little sense in urban combat situations is to refuse to show the kind of restraint they have come to anticipate and count on.

Matt Noonan of Blogs for Bush shares his beliefs with us that the White Supremacy of the 19th Century "had its good and bad points," but one thing that was lost when White Supremacy became discredited which Noonan wishes we had again is the certainty that Our Civilization is Superior. Due to the fact that we don't sufficiently recognize our superiority (due to our white guilt), we stupidly "pretend that we've something fundamental to learn from other civilizations whom we once oppressed." This myth - that we might have something to learn from other cultures -- causes us, in turn, to be too restrained when we should be engaging in some hard-core destruction of other countries.

But Noonan himself suffers from no such delusions. He knows that we are the best, and -- in one of my favorite sentences ever -- tells us that "it is this belief of (his) which sustains (him) through the difficult day to day of the War on Terrorism." Noonan is able to stand tall and resolute in his bunker even with the grave risks which confront him as he wages this war because he knows his society is superior. But there are too many of us who - in our white guilt - have forgotten this, and that is why we aren't strong enough to really get serious in this war. Also using the Steele article as some sort of protective shield, Daily Pundit similarly bemoans the "failure of will to destroy the enemy regimes that threaten us" and rails against "our delicacy in approaching Islamic fundamentalism."

Looking at the bright side of this deranged rhetoric, it is, in a sense, refreshing to see that many of these war supporters, in their great frustration, are finally relinquishing their solemn concern for the Iraqi people and the tearful inspiration caused by the Purple Fingers. Instead, they are now just calling for some good old-fashioned carpet bombings and mass killings. As Jeff tells us: "there are times when we really should turn off the “smart” bombs." After all: "no one wishes to see innocent civilians die . . . But at the same time, from a practical standpoint, there is nothing wrong with fighting a war as if it is a war."

Does it really have to be said that the reason we can't carpet bomb Iraq and "win the war" is because we are supposedly there to build Iraq, not to destroy it? Let's review a few basic, undisputed facts about our current occupation of Iraq -- undisputed because the administration itself acknowledges them. Once our original, predominant justification for our invasion disappeared -- that would be the whole bit about WMDs -- the only one we had left, the one we have since trumpeted over and over, is that we are there in order to improve that country, to enhance our reputation in the region, and to win "hearts and minds." As the President himself put it:

The terrorists know that democracy is their enemy, and they will continue fighting freedom's progress with all the hateful determination they can muster. Yet the Iraqi people are stepping forward to claim their liberty, and they will have it. When the new Iraqi government takes office next year, Iraqis will have the only constitutional democracy in the Arab world, and Americans will have a partner for peace and moderation in the Middle East.

People across the broader Middle East are drawing, and will continue to draw inspiration from Iraq's progress, and the terrorists' powerful myth is being destroyed. In a 1998 fatwa, Osama bin Laden argued that the suffering of the Iraqi people was justification for his declaration of war on America. Now bin Laden and al Qaeda are the direct cause of the Iraqi people's suffering. As more Muslims across the world see this, they're turning against the terrorists. As the hope of liberty spreads in the Middle East, the terrorists will lose their sponsors, lose their recruits, and lose the sanctuaries they need to plan new attacks.

According to the President, we're going to win because the terrorists bring suffering and destruction to Iraq and we don't. So they will like us and hate the terrorists and will soon be our "partner for peace." Advocating that we act more the way the President says Al Qaeda is acting -- by bombing more and killing more civilians -- doesn't seem all that compatible with those goals.

We are not there to conquer territory or drive the Iraqi government into forced surrender and submission. The Iraqi government isn't our enemy. Although it may be helpful to achieve one's objectives in a traditional war, large-scale destruction would achieve the very opposite effect of what we are supposedly trying to accomplish. The only choice we have is highly precise and targeted warfare against actual terrorists and insurgents. Any attacks that are more sweeping, destructive and indiscriminate will kill large numbers of innocent Iraqis -- the very people we claim we are there to help -- and will breed even more intense and widespread hatred towards the U.S. in the region, which would be the precise opposite of the goal we say we are trying to accomplish.

Escalating the use of military force in Iraq by indiscriminately killing civilians and eradicating whole cities would contradict every single statement we have made about why we are there, what we want to achieve, and what our plan is in that region. We're not refraining from those acts because of white guilt or a fear of what European diplomats will say about us. We're refraining from them because the wholesale indiscriminate slaughter of thousands or tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis -- all because we have grown impatient and annoyed with our pet little democracy-building project and just want to bomb the whole place into submission -- would be both morally reprehensible and, from the perspective of our own interests, an indescribably stupid thing to do.

To sit and listen to people who have spent the last three years piously lecturing us on the need to stand with "the Iraqi people," who justified our invasion of that country on the ground that we want to give them a better system of government because we must make Muslims like us more, now insist that what we need to do is bomb them with greater force and less precision is really rather vile -- but highly instructive. The masks are coming off. No more poetic tributes to democracy or all that sentimental whining about "hearts and minds." It's time to shed our unwarranted white guilt, really stretch our legs and let our hair down, and just keep bombing and bombing until we kill enough of them and win. Shelby Steele deserves some sort of award for triggering that refreshingly honest outburst.

UPDATE: Reporter Charlie Savage of The Boston Globe, who wrote what might be the most important article of the year thus far regarding the President's enthusiastic use of his sweeping theories of lawbreaking, is going to be on Air America's Majority Report tonight at 8:34 p.m. EST. You can check your local station or listen to the live feed here.

191 comments:

  1. The Shelby Steeles of the world may yet get what they want, in that it's hard to see what else the AC-130s we now have there will be used for. They mow down everything over a football-field-sized area...

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  2. Anonymous4:42 PM

    Shelby Steele is black! Maybe I'm living under a rock, but until I googled him, I had no idea of that. Maybe his theory of American race relations is that if we utlize our racist impulses externally, no one will be calling out to lynch Shelby if he looks cross-wise at the white women. Unbelievable.

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  3. Neiwert is going to have a field day with this editorial.

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  4. Anonymous4:44 PM

    The Shelby Steele Dinghy of American Justice Award

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  5. Anonymous4:54 PM

    People who are winning wars don't need to use loony rhetoric. "Hey, we won!" usually suffices.

    People who are losing wars because of bad management will look for all kinds of incredible excuses as to why they are not winning. Somehow, "We need to change strategies" never enters as a possibility.

    One subject they will never, ever, ever address is why, if the US has unmatched military might, we would ever need to use 100% of it against a much weaker opponent.

    I guess when they spot a mouse in their house, they seal the place up and fill it with cyanide gas, electrify the floors, and if that doesn't work, knock down the house. Most people hit it with a shoe or set a sticky trap. That works 99% of the time. Because a human really is smarter and stronger than a mouse.

    As was the case in Vietnam, Iraqis don't care if we bomb them into the Stone Age. They will keep fighting until we either leave or stay in such a manner as they can tolerate. They can be beaten (anyone can be beaten), but not by force escalation, unless you consider genocide a practical solution to American difficulties in Iraq.

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  6. Anonymous5:01 PM

    From the end of Noonan's blog entry:

    "In reading Mr. Steele's piece I began, I think, to better understand my leftwing readers - at bottom, they simply must be of the opinion that we are not the best, that American civilization, far too tainted with guilty white people, simply cannot be correct, and thus anyone we fight must have right on their side."

    Umh, thanks for the empathy Mr Noonan. Which reminds me, who gave this guy a license to practise armchair psychology?

    Matt uses a common rhetorical fallacy: you're either for us or against us. You either think America is the best, or you don't think it's the best. America, love it or leave it.

    What he misses is that the question itself is ill-posed. The US is part of an interconnected group of societies that make up the world community. The biggest mistakes we've made in recent memory (e.g., invading Iraq) has been when we stop taking our role seriously as good citizens of the world, puff out our chests and declare that we're #1, and go it alone.

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  7. Anonymous5:01 PM

    I think Steele wants us to Black and Tan Iraq. That didn't work out so well in Ireland but at least the British got to kill people when they were angry.

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  8. Wow. Sometimes arguments just leave me speechless. Steele's argument reminds me of someone who is losing a game of chess and in frustration picks up the board and throws it, scattering the pieces everywhere.

    When the going gets tough, just bomb the hell out of everything. That'll work.

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  9. We can always carry the logic to its full conclusion. If we kill everyone in the world who isn't us, then we won't have any enemies anymore

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  10. I re-post from Glenn's previous posting. The following applies to this posting as well, I think.
    --------

    That people are unwilling to give up their preconceptions and most cherished beliefs is understandable and perhaps uniquely human. If people were always changing their minds, heck, they'd be in constant upheaval, probably psychologically unstable. You have to believe in something that does not change all the time to get along in life.

    The Bushites have put their--understandable--faith and trust in GW. That's understandable for all kinds of reasons. Bush represents a worldview that brings order to the chaos of the modern world. He appeals to a higher authority for his actions, something many in their most dire moments find themselves doing.

    As polls show, a huge majority of people in the US would not even give an atheist who runs for office the time of day. So, the notion that many voted for Bush because he is a man of faith is also quite normal and reasonable. People want a leader who just doesn't pull his/her principles out of their rear ends. They hope/want to believe that the leader understands that there is a higher law, a higher power than base human self-interest.

    S'alls good so far. With 911, the majority of the public rallied around the flag and by implication the commander-in-chief. To do otherwise would be unreasonable--perhaps even anti-social, if not treasonous, given the nature of the attack and its consequences.

    In his role of (supposed) commander-in-chief, the majority of the people were willing to give the President a lot of leeway in deciding what is or is not in the country's interests. He has the info, after all, that we the public cannot and probably should not know or have access to.

    There was very little criticism of the President's military operation in Afghanistan. Any criticism that there was was looked upon as either eccentric at best, misplaced at worst. Most people could live with that--we are a nation proud of its tradition of freedom of expression.

    The war in Iraq seemed absolutely reasonable to a majority of people, especially given the "evidence" evinced by the Knower-in-chief and his knower insiders. Who could argue with the possibility of germ letters, mushroom cluds on the horizon, and the crazy Arab/Moslems who all look alike and whom people can hardly tell part anyway?

    The breaking point to this wholly reasonable and common-sense view of the public came with the fact that no WMDs were found. Then there's the fact that many Iraqis just didn't lie down and accept us as liberators. If there's one thing that the public can't stand it is being lied to by the knower-in-chief or anyone else. People generally don't like to be seen by others as rubes or self-deluded fools who'll believe in falshood.

    But there're those who see the world differently than most people who believe in comon-sense. These people see common-sense just as a form of PCness and therefore self-delusion. These true believers are the ones who see reality, see the truth, see the REAL threat.

    The fact that facts do not turn out in the way they were reported is simply a matter of interpretation and open to an infinite number of interpretations. Here, big picture view overrides petty facts. The point is that these "facts" are just details that only the petty-minded enemies use to attack and undermine the greater reality.

    This greater reality is that 1) western/American values are under attack from inside by the secularist/relativists, 2) under attack from outside by medievalist mind-sets, 3) Moslems/Arabs are procreating like rats and, given the nature of their ideology, are all born to be terrorists who mindlessly wish to kill us and our cherished way of life, and 4) the nature of reality is struggle and the winners in this struggle are those who will go to any lengths to protect themselves.

    Of course, fewer and fewer of the majority public are willing to accept much of this. To the true believers, they are caught in the snares of illusion and self-deception. Depending on the filter you want to use, they are either those who will be Left Behind or duped masses who will follow any lie just as long as the facade of truth can be ginned up in the form of threat to their private worlds and consumerist fantasies.

    Now, we on this forum who accept Glenn's work must assume some things about this "gullible" majority. We must assume that they have the ethical disposition to common-sense judgement to weed out fact from fiction. I still believe that most people are disposed to acknowledging a more reasonable, common-sense argument such as Glenn's.

    At heart, this argument will be more credible to the public the more it appeals to them as ethical beings who do indeed think that the truth in the form of evidential and forensic facts matter.

    In a world of change and variability, all truth is probabilistic. In most cases, people in general are willing to believe the better argument which can prove its case inductively. Truth in this case is the more probable.

    Given all the potential for manipulation and spin that the political insiders give to the facts, there are just some things that you can't deny. In the argument presented by Glenn, the things that people can't and won't deny is something that relates to an inherent immorality that inspires the grand gestures perpetrated by this admin.

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  11. Anonymous5:17 PM

    I think Steele wants us to Black and Tan
    Iraq.
    That didn't work out so well in Ireland but at least the British got to kill people when they were angry.

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  12. Anonymous5:18 PM

    I think deep down inside Goldstein resents that he's a housewife.

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  13. Anonymous5:19 PM

    Shorter version here. White Makes Right. Stop by and offer your own, short and sweet.

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  14. Don't you see we have to destroy Iraq in order to save it?

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  15. Anonymous5:20 PM

    There is an easy counter to this meme: Iraq. This war has forever demolished the idea that not tying our hands behind our back is all it takes to win.

    This war is lost because there was no restraint.

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  16. Anonymous5:25 PM

    The only thing I'm sure of is that Mr. Steele has confused "military professionalism" with "punitive violence." Even as the military is beginning to redevelop COIN doctrine, pundits like Steele want to throw the Iraqi baby out the window with the insurgent bathwater. Are we so bored of this war already?

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  17. Anonymous5:26 PM

    it's nice to know that only the true loonies are still willing to champion militarism. The more people like this sound off, the more their madness is exposed.

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  18. Anonymous5:31 PM

    I think Conrad's Kurz said it more succinctly: "Exterminate all the brutes."

    At some point, we pass the point for a Truth & Reconciliation Committee, and have to start thinking about the Nuremberg Principles.

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  19. Anonymous5:32 PM

    Steele is an idiot. If the premise of his argument were even valid, then he should be directing his ire at Donald Rumsfeld and George W. Bush -- the two dumbasses who refuse to call for a draft or massively increase our military presence in Iraq.

    Chastising the people opposed to the war in the first place makes no goddamned sense.

    Maybe he really is making fun of the dumbasses on the right who support the war, but refuse to commit the full-scale monetary, human, material, and political resources necessary to "win."

    Then again, maybe's he just a senile old Civil War historian pretending he know what the hell he is talking about with respoect to contemporary military and geo-political matters.

    --Hesiod

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  20. Apparently, these folks have plumb run out of insincere rationalizations for their conduct and policies WRT Irag et al.

    The "terror" of WMD didn't make the cut, nor evidently does "freedom" or "democracy". Guess the only thing left for these folks is to expose their true feelings; Kill 'em! If we can't fix the problem, kill more of 'em!

    And what then when this too does not produce their desired results? Their logic seems to inevitably lead to a "neo-con final solution" of kill 'em all!

    Fear and hate as a foundation of one's being does not make for a pretty picture!

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  21. Anonymous5:33 PM

    This misguided impulse is the same one that drove the administration to invade Iraq in the first place: The war on terror is a war between sovereign states and if you defeat the state then you have won the war. While Saddam's Iraq barely fit this criteria (i.e. it was a state), the insurgents there now and Al Qaeda in general do not have defined geographic territories or governments that can surrender. Thus indiscriminate bombing will only effect the few insurgents in the bomb radius and a lot of innocents.

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  22. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  23. Quoting from the article...

    "Only American victory in Iraq defeats the idea of Islamic extremism."

    Last time I checked Iraq was the last stronghold of secularism in the Middle East. So by allowing the Islamic extemists the opportunity to take over, we're defeating Islamic extremism.

    It makes so much sense that my head is spinning!

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  24. Anonymous5:34 PM

    English Ph.D. from Utah speculates on world events ... what's that saying about primates typing Shakespeare?

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  25. Anonymous5:35 PM

    Shelby Steele.

    Living proof that an oreo cookie is far more dangerous than a devil's food cake crack dealer and that Hoover institute is actually a museum of ancient and antique vacuum cleaners, or an outdate device employing bags full of dirt and dust.

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  26. Anonymous5:36 PM

    Sherman's March, that's the ticket. Nothing but flowers, celebration and togetherness in the South after the Late Unpleasantness. No Reconstruction, no carpetbaggers, no Jim Crow, no lynching, no KKK. It'll be better than a cakewalk, it'll be a cake-march.

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  27. It wouldn't do people like Steele one bit of harm to actually learn guilt, and throw in a little shame while they are at it. Obviously they haven't quite grasped the concept that such emotions often save us from practicing the brutality of rabid wolves.

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  28. Anonymous5:38 PM

    America has been a force for good in the world.

    Bwahahahaha!

    Since when?

    New Zealand has been a "force" for good in the world. They usually mind their own business and don't have to "force" themselves to do it.

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  29. Anonymous5:40 PM

    This editorial will be taken by the loathsome chickenhawk Charles Johnson and his racist "lizardoids" as yet more encouragement.

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  30. Anonymous5:40 PM

    hesiod -- I hope your comment about "senile Civil War historian" derived from the mention of Sherman's March and not from confusing Shelby Steele with Shelby Foote. That would be a huge slur on the memory of the latter.

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  31. Can you imagine being in those meetings authorizing some such plan as Steele suggests? The transcripts would resemble those from the Wannsee Conference.

    Speaking of which, anyone who's seen the Branagh movie version of this conference might not forget the controversey between Heydrich and Secretary of State Dr. Freisler over the fact that "the plan" must follow the infamous Nuermberg Race laws.

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  32. Shelby Steele is black! Maybe I'm living under a rock, but until I googled him, I had no idea of that.

    Oh, thank you. Until I read your comment, a cross-linked index in my BrainOS had caused me to believe, with abject horror, that Shelby Foote had said all of those stupid, stupid things (the invocation of Sherman only added to the confusion, of course).

    Phew. I am so relieved.

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  33. Anonymous5:45 PM

    I won't address how morally wrong Steele is about this. It would be a waste of time. I wonder, though, if he could at least be bothered to look up the Soviet war in Afghanistan. The Soviets tried his approach; see where it got them.

    He and the others in the Wargasm Party have to get over the fact that World War 2 is over. (And it wasn't as big a success as they think anyway.) Warfare has changed; they need to read the likes of Martin van Creveld and William Lind.

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  34. Anonymous5:46 PM

    dr2chase said...
    Sherman's March, that's the ticket. Nothing but flowers


    You don't know much about Sherman. That's cool. Neither does Victor David Hanson. Yes, he was the first proponent and advocate of the concept of total war. And he employed it, too. After h first pleaded with the south, where he was teaching in Louisiana before hostilities broke out, to think about what madness they were contemplating. They ignored him. They got what they asked for. Shelby Steele is the same kind of idiot that should get what he is asking for.

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  35. hesiod -- I hope your comment about "senile Civil War historian" derived from the mention of Sherman's March and not from confusing Shelby Steele with Shelby Foote. That would be a huge slur on the memory of the latter.

    Nice to see I wasn't the only one to (at least briefly) make that mistake, I guess. Foote may have had a slightly too starry-eyed view of "Bobby Lee" at times, but there is no way on earth that I can imagine him saying those ghastly things that Shelby Steele said.

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  36. Anonymous5:48 PM

    Since the beginning of the year, C-Span has been broadcasting a Republican Women’s Club meeting,
    where the president stands at the podium informing the group of the presentation for the meeting is
    being put on by the Center for Security Policy.

    She goes on to detail her motivation for creating the “Center” in a very sincere and soothing tone of voice. She then raises her pitch and begins to narrate an infomercial of sorts which leads to terrorists
    knocking out power grids after shooting a nuclear missile at the United States.

    It turns out that her co-conspirator in establishing the
    Center for Security Policy is Frank Gaffney, who wrote, War Footing at http://www.warfooting.com.

    After perusing the site, you will find many of the faces from the Iran-Contra debacle via the Reagan Administration. Apparently this crew has had Iran in their sights for quite some time. They have been drooling over moving on to Iran and have started running this very same commercial in various parts of the country according to Gaffney. It really can be quite compelling and will succeed in scaring the ‘be Jesus’ out of folks. The entire focus is to sell the Anti Ballistic Missile funding and at that time was targeted at markets in New Hampshire, Idaho and two other states which were yet to be announced according to Gaffney.

    At first, I thought is this crew including Bush, after world domination, or is it to suppress the supply of oil for his and dick’s golden parachute, then I read the articles about Peak Oil.

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  37. Anonymous5:50 PM

    Steele is a bit off balance about the change in warfare in the post-war era.

    We bombed the hell out of Korea; more than all the bombed dropped in the Second World War -- combined. When I find a link for it, I'll provide it.

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  38. What he's really leading to, it seems, is the neocon wet dream: the use of nuclear weapons. They seem to operate under the notion, "We've had em so long and we never got to play with them!" they are truly deranged, mutant-brained bullies.

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  39. Anonymous5:50 PM

    As Bush's poll numbers plunge and right-wing fundies are beginning to abandon him as the 'savior' of 'good Christians' in this country. They won't look to the left or even the center but even farther to the right for their voice. I am sure more voices like Steele will begin to crop up calling for increased violence to secure victory.

    Most right-wing Christians see us in a deathmatch with Islam. They don't care about Iraq and purple fingers so much and they probably never did. They want a complete irradication of Islam. They have the same 'end of times' rhetoric as bin Laden. The only difference is they aren't promised virgins for their sacrifice just a tax cut from the GOP. But they want more than their tax cuts for their votes, they want the blood of the heathens.

    I keep my fingers crossed that the adminstration is truly just about greed and not some armaggedon fantasy that many of their Christofacist members support.

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  40. Anonymous5:51 PM

    Shargash...
    America has been a force for good in the world.


    I'm sorry. I still have to laugh at the residual kool-aid still affecting those here on the right side of this issue. It's not meant to be mean, but you really need to flush your headgear out, new guy.

    Over a million Indonesians accused of being members or supporters of PKI were killed in riots and witch hunts. Lists of suspected communists were supposedly supplied to the Indonesian military by the CIA. A CIA study of the events in Indonesia assessed that "In terms of the numbers killed the anti-PKI massacres in Indonesia rank as one of the worst mass murders of the 20th century..." [1].

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  41. Anonymous5:51 PM

    Interesting and ironic that Dr. Strangelove was on cable just last evening.

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  42. Anonymous5:52 PM

    Does Shelby Steele think "ferocity" can compensate for inadequate forces, or did he just join Shinseki on Runny's shit-list?

    And since when does the right applaud the notion that we aren't doing enough in Iraq? I thought that kind of thing would get you kicked off the reservation.
    .

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  43. Anonymous5:54 PM

    but i thought everything was going to plan in Iraq. why do we need to carpetbomb if victory is just around the corner? do they actually think indiscriminate bombing is all we need to put us over the top?

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  44. Anonymous5:55 PM

    We bombed the hell out of Korea; more than all the bombed dropped in the Second World War ....

    Compare: World War II = 2,057,244 tons Vietnam War = 7,078,032 tons (3-1/2 times).
    .

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  45. anon: Most right-wing Christians see us in a deathmatch with Islam.

    You mean like: "Who ever heard of such a bloody, bloody, brutal type of religion? But that's what it [Islam] is. It is not a religion of peace. Islam means submission. Submission to the Quran, to Muhammad, to the quote, "will of Allah, as revealed by Muhammad." And the penalty of not submitting is death."

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  46. Anonymous5:56 PM

    By Mr. Steele's logic, should the governmental response to the civil rights movement of the 60s simply have been "more vigorous" and un-moderated by "guilt" of imposing our status quo (segregation) on an inconvenient protesting minority?

    I'm sure there were right-wing wackos at the time promoting simply shooting more of those uppity protestors until "they got the message" and stopped protesting.

    How far off have we gone as a country when a high-circulation periodical can publish a call to kill more innocent people as a solution to problems we've created for ourselves.

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  47. Anonymous5:58 PM

    It may be that we have been more restrained in our wars overseas since WWII because we are fighting countries that did not declare war on us and had little or no capability to do us real damage. Attacking someone in ferocious, all-out fashion who has not attacked us, who may not have had the ability to attack us at all, would make us seem like imperialists at best. One might even argue that the very fact that we don't feel we have the moral authority to grind the country into dirt means that we probably shouldn't be there because, as we know, "war is hell."

    -LG Rooney

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  48. Anonymous5:59 PM

    Hesiod wrote: "Then again, maybe's he just a senile old Civil War historian pretending he know what the hell he is talking about with respoect to contemporary military and geo-political matters."

    I'm a bit confused. Are you referring to Shelby Foote? Shelby Foote was the silver-haired, molasses-voiced historian of the Civil War (and an excellent 3-volume work he produced, by the way). Foote died in 2005. Shelby Steele is someone else.

    Sorry, off-topic, but didn't want Foote profaned for something he most certainly didn't write.

    Rob

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  49. Anonymous5:59 PM

    Foote may have had a slightly too starry-eyed view of "Bobby Lee" at times, but there is no way on earth that I can imagine him saying those ghastly things that Shelby Steele said.

    Shelby Foote, to his credit, is a sensible white man, as opposed to an ignorant, self loathing black man with a Ph.D. If I thought it mattered, I'd dig up articles by Walter Williams, (I think it was him. It was one of those tools.) Propagating the ridiculous revisionist myth that up to 10,000 black slaves fought on the side of the confederacy because they liked life on the plantation and didn't want to be free. And don't knock "Bobby Lee". He wasn't a fool. It was about honor with him. I wonder what he would make of all of this.

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  50. Anonymous6:02 PM

    Anonymous at 5:40 p.m., sorry, I hadn't gotten to your comment when I wrote mine. You already noted the Foote/Steele difference.

    Thanks.

    Rob

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  51. Anonymous6:02 PM

    Does it really have to be said that the reason we can't carpet bomb Iraq and "win the war" is because we are supposedly there to build Iraq, not to destroy it?

    No, the reason we invaded Iraq was to kill the terrorists. If the terrorists move amongst the people as the fish swim in the sea, then we must boil the sea and make bouillabaisse. The objectivists always saw things this way: they have always bemoaned our misguided policy of altruism. We must treat people who harbor terrorists exactly the same way we treat the terrorists.

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  52. Anonymous6:03 PM

    It's fantastic that the right is coming out into the open with what they have managed to keep hidden/obfuscated to date. This should bring their ultimate categorical rejection by the American people all that much closer.

    I would invite any Republicans who don't share these genocidal values to either stay home from the polls or vote for Democrats until the GOP can run these people out of the party, get their house in order.

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  53. Anonymous6:03 PM

    And everyone else's, it seems! :)

    Much more capable hands are on the case than I!

    Rob

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  54. Anonymous6:05 PM

    I don't think Mr. Steele's editorial deserves such a thoughtful, civil response, but I admire you for writing one :-)

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  55. Anonymous6:05 PM

    -LG Rooney @

    5:58 PM


    Ding! We have a winner! Well said, sir.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Anonymous6:08 PM

    What is so mystifying about Steele's argument is, as an historian he has to play stupid to make it. Your average know-nothing blogger he's not. In asserting that massive power will be victorious, and it's the lack of military projection which leads to failure, he simply cannot be unaware that colonialism has been losing to nationalism and tribalism since WWII. The US got its taste of that reality in Vietnam. What? You say 550,000 troops, napalm, mercenaries, 100's of bombing sorties daily and 57,000 dead means we weren't really giving it our all? I believe, however, that he is accurately channeling the thinking of the Cheneyites. Their experience in Vietnam and then Algeria seems to have been quite enough to educate the French, but it looks like America is gonna have to get its butt kicked again because the chickenhawks haven't been paying attention to Reality World.

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  57. Anonymous6:08 PM

    No, the reason we invaded Iraq was to kill the terrorists.

    What terrorist in Iraq? You mean the MEK? Someone better tell Sen. Brownback to quit pimping them, then.
    .

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  58. Anonymous6:08 PM

    Shelby Steele, and other black men who are conservatives and vote Republican, are like headless chickens voting for Col. Sanders. And they are all in the chickenhawk battalion, too.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Anonymous6:11 PM

    Grand Moff Texan,

    Unless I am grossly mistaken,

    Anonymous @ 6:02 PM was being sarcastic and taking a dry swipe at the right.

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  60. I'm posting this link because otherwise I would find our current topic too discouraging.

    http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28151

    ReplyDelete
  61. Anonymous6:17 PM

    Read this brief essay, if you already haven't, and if you haven't, why not?

    Shooting an Elephant

    By George Orwell



    Steele wouldn't even understand it, but then, he probably thinks he's a white man.

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  62. Anonymous6:24 PM

    Ask Panamanians about our "restraint."

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  63. Anonymous6:25 PM

    I'm not quite sure what 'white guilt' has to do with Iraq. Dress the average Iraqi in a soccer jersey and drop him onto the streets of Rome or Athens and he'd be indistinguishable from the rest of the population.

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  64. Anonymous6:25 PM

    The right is obviously on a quest to destroy satire. Who could write shit this good?

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  65. The United States has the power to destroy any country we wish with the flick of a wrist. In that, we are God-like. The question is, how do we use that power? We can practice compassion and restraint. Or, we can strike with a Mighty Sword, smiting the innocent with the guilty, and rely upon an ethereal God to sort them out.

    The irony is, if we use our godly power, we will likely compel the world to unite to destoy us.

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  66. Anonymous6:30 PM

    Am I mistaken, or did we not bomb the crap out of vietnam?

    "the bomb tonnage the US dropped on the "sanctuary" countries of Laos (2,093,300 tons), Cambodia (539,129 tons), and North Vietnam (539,129 tons) added up to about five times the tonnage that the US dropped on Germany in World War II."

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  67. Anonymous6:43 PM

    Anonymous said...

    http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2006-spring/just-war-theory.asp

    6:33 PM


    As is often the case with true wingnuts, absolutists and other demented and deluded people, one can never tell if it's parody or satire or not these days. This is made more difficult by the fact that objectivism is actually a revealed religion that must be accepted on faith, not a philosophy.

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  68. Anonymous6:56 PM

    Unless I am grossly mistaken,

    Anonymous @ 6:02 PM was being sarcastic and taking a dry swipe at the right.


    A considered possibility (the bouillabaisse reference made me think of In Like Flint, 1967), which is why I aimed my darts at the Senator.
    .

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  69. Anonymous6:58 PM

    Just how much time has Shelby or VDHanson spent humping a SAW in a live fire training exercise, even?

    I guess land navigation techniques in the stacks at Stanford's library and a Purple Heart for muscle strain reaching for a book is all it takes these day. Sign me up! I wanna fight for my country!

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  70. I submitted this response to Steele at the OpinionJournal. I don't know if it'll get put up, so I thought I'd regale you with it. Not, technically, a cross-post.

    This is an apologia for genocide. White supremacy? Is this guy nuts?
    What's white mean? Strictly speaking, only northern Europeans are
    anything close to white. And they're mostly kind of a pallid pink, not really
    white. What about the French? They're kind of almond colored. Are they
    white enough to satisfy the White Supremacists? The Italians? The
    northern Italians are probably ok. But the southern Italians...a little too
    greeny brown for most White Supremacists, I'll wager. And what about
    the synonym for white--Caucasian. Checked out any people from the
    Caucasus, lately? They're fairly brown. You get my point.
    And about minimalism (which I thought was a style of painting).
    Wouldn't it make more sense to address the underlying problems that create the
    mood for war in the likes of Mr. Steele, rather than to discuss where
    and when to kill everyone within sight who doesn't agree with him?
    Certainly, by now, even Mr. Steele must know that we were lied to about the
    reasons to attack Saddam Hussein's Iraq. Surely even someone so
    bellicose as Mr. Steele can see that to attack Iran would be folly, regardless
    of the amount of force used (or whether or not they use nukes). The WSJ
    owes the world an apology for printing this genocidal maniac's
    diatribe.

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  71. Yeah, the napalm, agent orange, and bombing of Cambodia was really pulling our punches.

    Is there anything more insideous than a Think Tank set up to provide an intellectual veneer of arguments that legitimate murder, pre-emptive war, and the demonization of enemies real (or perceived)-- all for the benefit of the corporate investor class?

    We've hit bottom.

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  72. I think modus potus got it right. What we're seeing here is the warbloggers begging BushCo. to once and for all give up the rhetorical veneer of "liberation" and admit we're there to kick ass, grab a permanent foothold in the Middle East, and intimidate Israel's neighbors and the entire globe to boot. They're basically admitting that the PNAC agenda is the one true agenda.

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  73. Anonymous7:06 PM

    There was an article in the Sunday Times magazine last weekend that seemed to offer some valuable insight into the madness that seems to have infected our country after 9/11, and which Glenn's previous post also focuses on.
    It was Freud and the Fundamentalist Urge, by Mark Edmundson.
    I provide some excerpts below, but I recommend the whole article; it's not that long (three pages):

    About this conflict — about this painful anxiety — what is to be done? Humanity, Freud says, has come up with many different solutions to the problem of internal conflict and the pain it inevitably brings. Most of these solutions, Freud thinks, are best described as forms of intoxication.
    * * *
    Freud had no compunction in calling the relationship that crowds forge with an absolute leader an erotic one. (In this he was seconded by Hitler, who suggested that in his speeches he made love to the German masses.) What happens when members of the crowd are "hypnotized" (that is the word Freud uses) by a tyrant? The tyrant takes the place of the over-I, and for a variety of reasons, he stays there. What he offers to individuals is a new, psychological dispensation. Where the individual superego is inconsistent and often inaccessible because it is unconscious, the collective superego, the leader, is clear and absolute in his values.
    * * *
    In his last days, Freud became increasingly concerned about our longing for inner peace — our longing, in particular, to replace our old, inconsistent and often inscrutable over-I with something clearer, simpler and ultimately more permissive. We want a strong man with a simple doctrine that accounts for our sufferings, identifies our enemies, focuses our energies and gives us, more enduringly than wine or even love, a sense of being whole. This man, as Freud says in his great book on politics, "Group Psychology and the Analysis of the Ego," must appear completely masterful. He must seem to have perfect confidence, to need no one and to be entirely sufficient unto himself. Sometimes this man will evoke a god as his source of authority, sometimes not. But in whatever form he comes — whether he is called Hitler, Stalin, Mao — he will promise to deliver people from their confusion and to dispense unity and purpose where before there were only fracture and incessant anxiety. But, of course, the price is likely to be high, because the simplifications the great man offers will almost inevitably involve hatred and violence.
    * * *
    When a relatively free nation is threatened by terrorists with totalitarian goals, as ours is now, there is, of course, an urge to come together and to fight back by any means necessary. But the danger is that in fighting back we will become just as fierce, monolithic and, in the worst sense, as unified as our foes. We will seek our own great man; we will be blind to his foibles; we will stop questioning, stop arguing. When that happens, a war of fundamentalisms has begun, and of that war there can be no victor.

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  74. Anonymous7:07 PM

    Steele's argument is just a more provocative version of "it's all the fault of the liberals" -- but it's real purpose is simply to provide cover for the ugly truth which is that the administration talked people into this war by telling lies (Niger, 9/11, mobile labs, etc.) and making false promises (we can do this on the cheap).

    If we spend time debunking this nonsense -- if we treat this in any way as a serious argument, all we do is divert attention away from those lies and false promises.

    And yet again, we will find ourselves in a defensive posture. Stay focused on what the neo-cons actually did -- not on their attempts now to shift blame to us.

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  75. Anonymous7:12 PM

    A considered possibility (the bouillabaisse reference made me think of In Like Flint, 1967), which is why I aimed my darts at the Senator.

    A well aimed shot.

    Brian McCaffrey said...
    The real tragedy of these military misadventures is that it leads us to think that we can't ever constructively intervene to save our neighbors. That just ain't so.

    Actually, I think that is the conclusion that these misadventures should lead us too. In the history of man, there has never been a truely benevolent hegemon, while there have been plenty of examples of imperial and colonial exploitation.

    6:53 PM


    WWII had to be fought. What we did afterward, cutting up the pie) is the root of many of our problems today. WWI? We could have taken a pass on that, perhaps. I don't know. GWI? Again, I don't know, but if we knew then that we were going to be back there today... well, as Patton used to say, (in one of his saner moments), he didn't like to pay for the same real estate twice. Our involvement in the Balkans under Clinton? Not too shabby. If we had stood pat in Afghanistan and actually pacified and rebuilt that country, it would be a rather different world today.

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  76. Anonymous7:14 PM

    The role of the Black Conservative Movement in Twentieth Century America is one of the few topics about which I am somewhat of an expert.

    Maybe some time I will write something about that subject, but for now, I just want to point out that there are some profound truths about the Black Conservative Movement which are actually quite tragic, in my opinion, and about which nobody seems to have even thought about, much less written about.

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  77. Anonymous7:16 PM

    don kuhn, aj,

    Excellent points. It's not uncommon, it's advisable, going back as far as Sun Tzu, to have multiple objectives in mind for any advance/campaign. It keeps the defense off balance.

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  78. Anonymous7:21 PM

    Did you get stupid when you decided 'the left' was more likely to buy your books?

    What do you think the "wrong track" polls and the "Bush Presidency" polls are saying?

    My read is that there are at least 20%(1/3 of the 60% 'wrong track' people- the other 40% are 'partisan' Dems and morons) that thought Iraq should be nothing more than a 'smoking crater in a field of glass' by now... why do you think they'll suddenly decide to vote for a Dem this year?

    I haven't voted for a Repub Pres since Reagan/1984(my first election)--- but, then again, I have never voted for a Dem President.(though, I'll admit that I'd almost be willing to campaign for Hillary if McCain is the Repub. nominee...)

    but one thing that was lost when White Supremacy became discredited which Noonan wishes we had again is the certainty that Our Civilization is Superior.

    Look at the facts... IMO, "Our Civilization" is absolutely Superior to every other civilization that has ever existed on this planet in it's entire history.

    Further, we are almost guaranteed to hold this position- no matter what!- for the next 50-75 years(Have you actually looked at our "budgets"(Defense and Entitlements) compared to the rest of the world?-- If the leftists and bureaucrats don't steal everything, the "decline" of the U.S. will not occur during my lifetime.


    Deal with it!

    But, then again, I guess when 20 or 30 thousand leftist nutballs want to give you money, you have to try to deliver what they expect...

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  79. Anonymous7:30 PM

    Shargash,

    I see your point but I believe those outrageous ideas should be treated as if they merit only our ridicule, not as reasoned arguments to be debunked by facts or undermined by logic. Satire is the appropriate tool here. A reasoned response lends credibility to an argument that has none.

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  80. Look at the facts... IMO, "Our Civilization" is absolutely Superior to every other civilization that has ever existed on this planet in it's entire history.

    Further, we are almost guaranteed to hold this position- no matter what!- for the next 50-75 years(Have you actually looked at our "budgets"(Defense and Entitlements) compared to the rest of the world?-- If the leftists and bureaucrats don't steal everything, the "decline" of the U.S. will not occur during my lifetime.


    Deal with it!


    What are the dimensions on which you measure the supremacy of a civilization? Do you have data on each of these dimensions of the superiority of the U.S.?

    What about crime rates, for example? Or the forty odd million without health insurance? Or the environmental degradation we cause?

    There are many great things about this country, but the automatic response about it being the greatest ever is most likely caused by the fourth of July speeches about how we are the greatest.

    These beliefs don't make Americans very popular in other countries.

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  81. Anonymous7:53 PM

    We're getting into divine retribution territory here....

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  82. Anonymous8:11 PM

    I remember back in the fall of '02, when we were first being sold this pig in a poke, that this was actually the tough-guy armchair warriors' first bastion of argument. "Give war a chance", they said. "War clarifies things", they said, citing the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo, as if Iraq were comparable in any regard.

    Then in the wake of no WMD, the warbloggers' rationale shifted seamlessly with that of their superiors in the Borg. "Liberate". "Freedom". "Turning the corner", as if turning one too many corners doesn't just lead you right back to where you began. "How can we let this nice lady with the purple finger down in her quest for democracy?" (We could all tell she was a lady, since she was being forced to wear a burqa. Democracy and all.)

    So now they are right back indeed to square one, argumentatively. Why? Because the sooner they can dehumanize the hated Other, the sooner they can get to incinerating them. It is necessary in order to steel oneself, sublimate one's soul, in order to justify the next pre-emptive attack.

    Next will come the inevitable smarm about how "first they said Afghanistan wasn't Iraq, then they said Iraq wouldn't be like Afghanistan", of course subbing Iran for wherever they need to hop their high horse.

    We'll see if it works this time, if Americans will allow their better angels to be overcome once again by pie-in-the-sky bullshit and stress over expensive gasoline. These people, these armchair warriors, are quite effective primarily because they have no conscience, and they know that most Americans have no memory.

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  83. Hmmmm.

    At risk of repeating points potentially made in the previous 110 comments (I come here to read Glenn's thoughts, not those of my fellow Glenn fans, snarky though that sounds) it's foolish to the point of lunacy to speak of winning the conflict in Iraq by amping up the body count.

    Our opponents in this war are extremists, most if not all of whom are quite willing to die for their cause. For people to advocate more death and destruction as a means to win against an enemy like that, they are basically saying, we have to kill every man, woman and child in Iraq. Until we do that, we can't win; massive overkill will not cowe this particular military opponent into surrendering. These guys don't do the white flag thing.

    Our options are essentially two -- we kill everyone in the Middle East capable of picking up a rifle, or we find a way to convince everyone in the Middle East that they don't need to pick up a rifle. Unfortunately, the last is cowardly liberal secular humanist rot, or some such thing, and leads inevitably to the global police state where white Americans are inevitably outvoted by all the inferior races, and we can't have it. Only the utter triumph of the superior Aryan genotype can be countenanced.

    It's sad but true -- the more Bush screws up, the more his crazy cult retreats into the past. Previously I've said that conservatives want nothing more than to reset the social clock to some weird ur-Utopian LEAVE IT TO BEAVER 1950s that never actually existed. Now, though, they're trying to drag us back to the 18th Century... although they want us to take our nukes with us.

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  84. The Wall Street Journal actually published this? This has to be some kind of joke, straight out of adequacy.org.

    This may be one of the most brilliant troll articles ever written and is certainly funnier than 95% of The Onion. The fact that he uses the term "white supremacy" has me in stitches.

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  85. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  86. Anonymous8:49 PM

    Steele could have saved a lot of words by just writing "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out".

    ReplyDelete
  87. Anonymous8:50 PM

    anon at 6:33. I am not reading any comments by the "anons" but in scrolling past them I couldn't help but notice your link which has the word "objectivist" in it.

    I am going to assume for the purposes of this discussion you do not know the following and it's an honest mistake on your part, but I am giving you the benefit of the doubt JUST THIS ONE TIME.

    You link to something affiliated with the Ayn Rand Institute.

    As I have pointed out on this blog many, many times but you may have never seen those posts, there is no group in America which stands in sharper contrast to the ideas and the philosophy of Ayn Rand than The Ayn Rand Institute.

    I simply cannot allow you, without my protesting what you are doing, to link to any of that group's writings or any group which is affiliated in any way
    with that group in an attempt to discredit the ideas of Ayn Rand herself.

    The Ayn Rand Institute is controlled by some of the most literally deranged people in America, a bunch of vicious, fascist, greedy, power-mad, delusional neo-cons whose only claim to credibility, in the eyes of some perhaps innocent but very unsophisticated thinkers, is the entirely false claim that they in ANY WAY represent the ideas of Ayn Rand.

    If your intention is to discredit the ideas of Ayn Rand on this blog, as is becoming increasingly obvious since you insert those links out of the blue when nobody is discussing her ideas, please "discredit" her own words, and provide the link to the entire article.

    Please do not continue to quote the words of the characters in her works of fiction. As she repeatedly stated, she was primarily a Romantic novelist, which was her true passion, and her characters, whose own views shift as the stories develop, are just that: characters in works of Romantic fiction.

    None of them are Ayn Rand. They are fictional characters.

    It is intellectually mandatory that you link to the words of Ayn Rand herself if you are attempting to discredit her ideas.

    Did you really read Ayn Rand's non-fiction books yourself and think that the Ayn Rand Institute or any of its "followers" are advocates of her own ideas?

    If so, what can I say except that you would then obviously be someone to whom the concept that 2+2=4 is not at all convincing.

    PLEASE. At least be honest in what you do, even if your sole intention is to discredit the ideas of Ayn Rand as it appears to be.

    BTW, you might first educate yourself about the actual definition of "selfish" which Ayn Rand uses in her book "The Virtue of Selfishness."

    Ayn Rand writes that the "exact meaning" of selfishness is "concern with one's own interests" (VOS, vii). She defined "selfishness" as a "serious, rational, principled concern with one's own well-being.

    She rejected the philosophy of "altruism" (in her words the view that "self-sacrifice is the moral ideal") as being inconsistent with a legitimate "principled concern with one's own well-being."

    She was not against, rather was for, the concept of "principled" charity and was herself a very generous donor to a variety of different efforts and individuals.

    I am 100% sure she gave away more to help others than you ever did. If that is the standard by which you judge others, judge yourself by that standard first.

    Of course, she had so much more to give. In every way.

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  88. This is the time of ghosts. We have the ghosts of VietNam, the crusades, white man's burden, manifest destiny, genocidal Indian wars. Is this the time when all those things we as a nation have repressed manifest themselves and we either choose to accept the heart of darkness we have so far negated or we perpetrate crimes aginst humanity that will deprive us forever of our spirits?

    Ethics demands that all stand up and cry out in defiance of such barbarity. Silence, as deGaulle knew, is the ultimate form of political power. We must oppose the silence of power with the silence of those future ghosts whose future shades will haunt generations to come if we allow this to stand.

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  89. "The brown current ran swiftly out of the heart of darkness, bearing us down towards the sea with twice the speed of our upward progress; and Kurtz's life was running swiftly, too, ebbing, ebbing out of his heart into the sea of inexorable time. The manager was very placid, he had no vital anxieties now, he took us both in with a comprehensive and satisfied glance: the 'affair' had come off as well as could be wished. I saw the time approaching when I would be left alone of the party of 'unsound method.' The pilgrims looked upon me with disfavour. I was, so to speak, numbered with the dead. It is strange how I accepted this unforeseen partnership, this choice of nightmares forced upon me in the tenebrous land invaded by these mean and greedy phantoms.

    "Kurtz discoursed. A voice! a voice! It rang deep to the very last. It survived his strength to hide in the magnificent folds of eloquence the barren darkness of his heart. Oh, he struggled! he struggled! The wastes of his weary brain were haunted by shadowy images now--images of wealth and fame revolving obsequiously round his unextinguishable gift of noble and lofty expression. My Intended, my station, my career, my ideas--these were the subjects for the occasional utterances of elevated sentiments. The shade of the original Kurtz frequented the bedside of the hollow sham, whose fate it was to be buried presently in the mould of primeval earth. But both the diabolic love and the unearthly hate of the mysteries it had penetrated fought for the possession of that soul satiated with primitive emotions, avid of lying fame, of sham distinction, of all the appearances of success and power.

    "Sometimes he was contemptibly childish. He desired to have kings meet him at railway-stations on his return from some ghastly Nowhere, where he intended to accomplish great things. 'You show them you have in you something that is really profitable, and then there will be no limits to the recognition of your ability,' he would say. 'Of course you must take care of the motives--right motives--always.' The long reaches that were like one and the same reach, monotonous bends that were exactly alike, slipped past the steamer with their multitude of secular trees looking patiently after this grimy fragment of another world, the forerunner of change, of conquest, of trade, of massacres, of blessings. I looked ahead--piloting. 'Close the shutter,' said Kurtz suddenly one day; 'I can't bear to look at this.' I did so. There was a silence. 'Oh, but I will wring your heart yet!' he cried at the invisible wilderness.

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  90. Anonymous9:19 PM

    Anonymous said...
    Steele could have saved a lot of words by just writing "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out".

    8:49 PM


    Good Catholics agree.

    In more modern times, however, we think of terror as organized but senseless violence, done in the name of an ideology. In the city of Beziers, in the year 1209, 15,000 men, women and children were slaughtered in order to root out the Albigensian heresy. “Whom should we kill,” asked Philip Augustus' [Simon de Monfort] general. “Kill them all,” the Papal Legate replied. “God will recognize his own.”

    EWO,
    Spoken like a "true believer".

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  91. Anonymous9:24 PM

    sfletcher99 said...
    Did you get stupid when you decided 'the left' was more likely to buy your books?


    Well you certainly don't read them. Books, I mean. So from a purely financial point of view, it's better to write them for people who do more than just look at the pictures. Since Glenn doesn't draw cartoons, wouldn't you agree?

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  92. I think its been said on this thread already, but it bears repeating. Steele's not really advocating that we kill Iraqis indiscriminantly. He's just setting up the arguement so that when we do indeed draw down the troops and depart, that everyone knows its those peacenik liberals fault that we lost and has nothing to do with the fact that there wasn't any outcome that could reasonably be called winning available in the first place.

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  93. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  94. It might prove worthwhile to remember that Robert Parry in 2005 was saying this "final solution" approach in Iraq is simply part of the messianic ideology of Bush:

    Bush in Iraq, Slouching Toward Genocide, By Robert Parry
    December 1, 2005

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  95. Anonymous9:32 PM

    Anonymous said...

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41771

    9:25 PM


    Bwawaaaahahahaa!

    From the wingnutdaily drool

    Of course, the hand wringers, peaceniks and leftist elites would shout and scream bloody murder about how aggressive, unfair and politically incorrect this doctrine appears. However, I believe it would accomplish the same thing as MAD – namely, the successful deterrence of nuclear holocaust. All we need is the will to declare it.

    Get a brian, Moran.

    If we were nuked, and we knew from whence it came, I'd help you climb on it for the ride down, slim.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Our friend from WorldNetDaily linked to above is apparently too young (or stupid) to remember the "Nuclear Winter" scenario.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Anonymous9:42 PM

    Kissinger floated the "mad dog theory" to justify the Christmas bombing - go do something so utterly irrationally over the top murderously violent that the world will fear you like a mad dog. Fundamental humanity and morality aside, it didn't work real well then either.

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  98. Anonymous9:58 PM

    First of all, EWO, I never linked to the Ayn Rand Institute, nor did I link to any Randian (obectivist) site. I never would. I don't find anything there worth linking too.

    I did link to this on this thread. That's all.

    The Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult
    by Murray N. Rothbard

    Written in 1972, this was the first piece of Rand revisionism from the libertarian standpoint.


    That's as far to the right as I go without a HazMat suit and protective gear. I suggest you read it.



    The Ayn Rand Institute is controlled by some of the most literally deranged people in America, a bunch of vicious, fascist, greedy, power-mad, delusional neo-cons whose only claim to credibility, in the eyes of some perhaps innocent but very unsophisticated thinkers, is the entirely false claim that they in ANY WAY represent the ideas of Ayn Rand.

    No! I'm shocked! I wonder why such people gravitate to that kind of cult?

    As she repeatedly stated, she [Ayn Rand] was primarily a Romantic novelist

    Everyone agrees on that. That's all she was, aside from being a cult leader.

    It is intellectually mandatory that you link to the words of Ayn Rand herself if you are attempting to discredit her ideas.

    Blow me.

    Did you really read Ayn Rand's non-fiction books yourself

    No, but I didn't read Saddam Hussein's efforts in that genre either. Fluff doesn't interest me.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Anonymous10:07 PM

    Eyes Wide Open said...
    [deletia]

    Here's the skinny on your

    Objectivist Death Cult

    ReplyDelete
  100. Anonymous10:16 PM

    I hate to see scum like Jeff Goldstein invoking the name of William Tecumseh Sherman. Sherman had many faults, he was no liberal even by the standards of his own day, but he was a man who knew exactly how bad war really was, not a chickenhawk. I also hate to see Sherman's March mis-characterized as some kind of genocidal killing spree. The distinctive thing about the March was that hardly anybody got killed. Plenty of white people lost their property -- both their legitimate property such as houses and barns and their illegitimate property, the slaves -- which is IMO the real reason the South still hates Sherman to this day. Slaughter our sons in battle, like Grant did? Cool. Liberate our slaves and make us have to actually work for a living? How evil!

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  101. Anonymous10:33 PM

    You know, one aspect of every good plan is that it is possible; another even more important aspect is that it is intelligible. Now I hate to seem so damn nitpicky, but before I decide to back Field Marshal Von Steele's Plan For Bloody Victory!, I'm really going to have to insist on some specific details.

    First detail: exactly where does the Field Marshal propose that we drop these loads of bombs he loves so dearly? Can he, perhaps, suggest a list of likely targets? You know, aerial-bombing targets in a guerrila war? perhaps the General hasn't thought this through too well. (Or, while Steele repeatedly says Iraq, Iraq, is he really talking about a more "target-rich environment," Iran?)

    Second detail: after we've so ferociously dropped all these bombs, then what? In the U.S. Civil War and World War II we followed up the massive destruction with an enormously expensive occupation that lasted for years. In WW2 the U.S.A. had a draft-fed Army of sixteen million men; to support this huge Army our military sequestered forty-eight percent of our Gross National Product. Whereas in Iraq, we can afford to field only one one-hundredth that many men to the war zone, and regarding paying for all this, even as the invasion began the Administration has handed out repeated massive tax cuts; in other words, the greatest fiscal sacrifice the Bush Administration feels it can ask from the taxpayer is literally less than nothing.

    Since there are neither uniforms nor front lines in a guerrila war, we have to assume Gen. Steele intends to order the troops to kill them all and let God sort it out. Well, might makes right, and by Jingo we've got the ships, I guess; have we the men? have we the money too? And after we've ruthlessly smashed our way to glorious victory, who will man the occupation? And who will pay for all of this?

    - W. Kiernan

    ReplyDelete
  102. Anonymous10:50 PM

    Exterminate the brutes!

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  103. Anonymous11:12 PM

    Well, they're getting warmer, but real white supremacists aren't entirely impressed:

    Of course, he doesn't really want returned what is the cause of White Guilt, which is The collapse of white supremacy, as that would mean a caste system in which Black Authors such as he wouldn't be celebrated by Whites so often.
    -----
    He is correct in his analysis that white guilt -a psychological/spiritual factor- is the basis of most of our problems. His solutions, if he has any, suck of course.
    -----
    He seems to insinuate quite strongly that white guilt was implanted into the white West's consciousness, whereas it did not collectively exist before. But he also does not go so far as to say we should drive a stake through its heart, either.

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  104. Anonymous11:16 PM

    I can't add to Glenn's summary in general, but will add another issue here, a strain of White-Man-Itis evidenced by Steele trying to convince himself we really can just take off the gloves and control the situation -- were it not for that pesky liberal guilt. In fact this is likely not the case:

    First, in Vietnam we inflicted at least 1 M combatant casualties - thes best quote I have seen, which was from a North Vietnames officer, when asked by Secretary of State Dean Rusk about civilian casualties: "We have no idea." I have seen estimates of 2.5M total casualties, the equivalent at the time relative to population of something like 10M US casulaties. The cost to us of inflicting these momentous casualties - which did not, obviously, end the conflict - was a net economic loss:

    Against the North Vietnamese, the Air Force paid a steep price to accomplish meager results against a highly resourceful enemy. From 1964 to 1973, the service lost 617 fixed-wing aircraft over North Vietnam.3 The United States also suffered economic costs from bombing that far exceeded those inflicted on the enemy. In early 1967, the Central Intelligence Agency estimated that rendering $1.00's worth of bomb damage on the North Vietnam cost American taxpayers $9.60.4 North Vietnam's gross national product actually increased during the bombing, as Ho Chi Minh skillfully played off the Chinese against the Soviet Union to secure a vast amount of military and economic support from each.5

    So the first point: what constitutes a "weak enemy" is really a question of a number of things, including replacement rates and will to fight. Barring truly genocidal proportions proportions, 'taking the gloves off' may not enable our ostensibly omnipotent but angst-ridden White Man to control the situation.

    Now the second point: strategic bombing's effectiveness (and feasbility) is highly overrated -

    strategic bombing failed to live up to prewar expectations. The bombing of major cities and industrial centers proved to be a necessary but not a sufficient cause for victory. The Allies' powerful air arms achieved a high degree of lethality (e.g., Tokyo, Hamburg, and Dresden) but could not sustain the tempo necessary to create a decisive, war-winning effect.7 Each bombing mission required enormous numbers of aircraft and ordnance, which in turn worked to reduce the frequency with which one could execute the missions and all but prevented the carrying out of multiple raids simultaneously. Until US aircraft dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki--President Truman's "rain of ruin" from the air--long-range bombing technologies were not sufficient to break an opponent's will to fight.8

    Specifically, note that (emphasis added):

    7. The Tokyo raids took place from 1942 to 1945. One particularly intense period of bombing during May 1945 produced 125,000 casualties. The bombing of Hamburg (1943) took place over four months and caused 90,000 casualties. The controversial bombing of Dresden (1945) occurred over three months and generated 80,000 casualties.

    8. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki produced 220,000 casualties within three days and helped convince the Japanese emperor to surrender.


    Thus, let us note a few things: in the heyday of slaughtering civilians in large numbers to achieve political purposes (also known as terrorism (WW II)), the very expensive process of conducting such slaughter was not sufficient to "win." In the case of Japan, let us note that we inflicted about 70,000 casulties per day on a country whose capability to resist has been destroyed -- indeed, Japan might have been able to resist an invasion if we came to them, but their navy and air force had been devestated and their supplies of fuel were perilously low. Thus even the case study of Japan, nukes "contrbuted" under the circumstances where it was clear to the Japanese government their only option was to sit there and take it indefinitely...they had no offensive capability whatsoever and their allies had been defeated, with most of the rest of the world definitvely allied against them. Even nukes are unproven, and even in the hypothetical case of use of tactical nuclear weapons to show what badasses we are, in the presence of an opportunity to strike back (in-country or through terrorism) and the prospect of assistance from other nations or groups, it is not at all clear that massive casualties and our big swinging nuclear cojones could change the situation--again, barring essentially genocidal behavior.



    In sum, this meme is the dangerous but also pathetic - the cry of folks who just can't get that sometimes you can't control the situation. Which is why you can't pursue dangerous strategies uninformed by history. Like invading Iraq - of "taking the gloves off" as proposed.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous11:39 PM

    Bring them democracy or kill them. whatever.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Here is Dave Neiwert's take on the Steele editorial.

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  107. Iran invasion imminent?

    According to Steve Clemons:

    America and the Europeans have co-drafted a UN Security Council Resolution with some teeth and have written into the resolution the trigger for economic sanctions against Iran if it fails to cease its nuclear program.

    This is serious.

    Previously, all John Bolton and Nick Burns had been able to push out of the Security Council was a declaration, which was not binding.

    On the military front, Sy Hersh's sources tell him that we are planning for an invasive hot strike against Iran. My sources do not confirm the Hersh assertion that a strike against Iran will occur this summer but do suggest that there is a great deal of operations/logistics planning underway. My sources also say that if a large scale operation against Iran looked likely, we would see scores of generals in the military elect to resign rather than participate.

    Resigning generals may be the canary in the cave if a real Iran strike is genuinely on course.

    But let's just suggest for the moment that there are some serious players in the Bush administration who see the military option as the right course, and others who don't. At this point, it seems clear that the military option is not one behind which there is consensus in the Bush White House.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Anonymous11:51 PM

    Check out the latest on the filth that is Juan Cole.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anonymous11:57 PM

    Linkmeister said...

    "Strictly from the Realpolitik point of view, what few sympathizers we have left in the Middle East would be cut off at the knees if we carpet-bombed Iraq. From a military point of view, you can't defeat an insurgency from 15,000-30,000 feet."

    We did a lot of carpet bombing in Viet Nam. I still have at least one aerial shot of a strike by a B-52. It didn't make one bit of difference in the outcome of the war there.

    Anyone who thinks that carpet bombing Iraq will do anything but kill a bunch of civilians (supposedly people we are trying to help) is completely delusional. It amazes me as I watch this unfold how many failed tactics from Viet Nam have once again reared their ugly head. Mostly from people that never served or even studied the war in Viet Nam and why we really failed there.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Anonymous12:01 AM

    no, really, it can only be truly appreciated in the original german

    ReplyDelete
  111. Of course, we will understand outselves the ferocity of this man's military when the gang members come back and teach their homeys new ways to take the streets. How's that saying go? What goes around comes around?

    According to the Chicago Sun Times:

    [Scott] Barfield[, a Defense Department gang detective] said gangs are encouraging their members to join the military to learn urban warfare techniques they can teach when they go back to their neighborhoods.

    "Gang members are telling us in the interviews that their gang is putting them in," he said...

    Barfield said he has documented gang-affiliated soldiers' involvement in drug dealing, gunrunning and other criminal activity off base. More than a year ago, a soldier tied to a white supremacy group was caught trying to ship an assault rifle from Iraq to the United States in pieces, he said.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Anonymous12:12 AM

    no, really, it can only be truly appreciated in the original german
    Here you go:

    Vernichtungskrieg

    ReplyDelete
  113. Having not read through all the comments yet, was anyone else struck by the irony that the way to counter the loss of "white supremacy" is with an international version of "Sherman's march through the south"?

    And the dwindling number of Dear Leader's true lackeys/believers wonder why they're being mocked & scorned more openly & often now

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  114. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  115. Anonymous12:34 AM

    the cynic librarian said

    "There was very little criticism of the President's military operation in Afghanistan. Any criticism that there was was looked upon as either eccentric at best, misplaced at worst. Most people could live with that--we are a nation proud of its tradition of freedom of expression."

    I supported military action in Afghanistan and still would if it had been done right. I would have supported a military incursion with the sole objective being to either capture or kill Osama Bin Laden and then immediately leaving when that had been accomplished. What I do not support are regime changes and trying to make the world a democracy at the end of a gun barrel.

    As for Iraq, I never supported sending our military there. Osama wasn't there. Bush jr. never built a real coalition and we did not have the support of the rest of the world as we did during the first Gulf War.

    To paraphrase two of my favorite quotes about war:

    There is no honor in war, only pain, and blood, and death.

    And the second:

    All too often decisions are made with a casualness and swagger that are the special province of those who have never had to execute these missions-or bury the results.


    "Now, we on this forum who accept Glenn's work must assume some things about this "gullible" majority. We must assume that they have the ethical disposition to common-sense judgement to weed out fact from fiction. I still believe that most people are disposed to acknowledging a more reasonable, common-sense argument such as Glenn's."

    I think that is already evident in the continued low and still dropping poll numbers of Bush and his admin.

    ReplyDelete
  116. hidden imam: Check out the latest on the filth that is Juan Cole.

    It seems that Hitchens has adopted the tactics of the NSA. He stole a private email of Cole's and published it in his bit of "attack journalism."

    The other side has decided that it's break it or lose it now. They'll do anything to destroy you if you disagree with them.

    Cole responds to Hitchens.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Anonymous12:38 AM

    Paul Rosenberg said...

    When you see so much multi-faceted cognitive impairment wall-to-wall, day after day, it kind of gets to you after a while. But it's a big mistake when we allow that to blind us to specific arguments we have not encountered before which need to be taken seriously. Otherwise, we will indeed begin to turn ourselves into a mirror image of solipsistic idiocy we behold in such horror.

    A very good point, and well taken by me as well as others I hope.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Anonymous12:45 AM

    Whoo's gotta drink? I had sex with Tucker Carlson. I like young boys.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anonymous12:53 AM

    I just can't quit you, Hitch.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Anonymous12:58 AM

    Frankly, I'm tired of reading these letters to the editor. It used to be that whenever I read that kind of crap in my own newspaper, I would always write a response. But what's the point? Simply talking about the letter isn't making a difference. Making sure opinions like his never get popular enough for congress to vote on it and the president to do it (hell, he could do it w/o congresses help, so let's put it this way).

    Making sure opinions like his do not get popular enough to land in the presidents head is the priority.

    And that's what I'm going to work on. If anyone wants to join me, I'll be out planning the next peace rally.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous1:00 AM

    Well throwing down WP as an incindirary weapon, pulverizing Fulluja (sp?) while cutting off water and medical supplies and forcing fleeing civilians back to the city don't seem too campsionate.

    And "shock and awe" was actually a military tactic created years ago designed to brutalize an enemy into a stupor.

    Do not mis-under-estimate our campassionitivity Iraq.

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  122. Anonymous1:00 AM

    That's too funny that Cole accuses Hitchens of being drunk and then proceeds to get totally unhinged. Yes, this rabid Left wing, borderline incoherent, charlatan would be a real asset to Yale.

    Oh, and he really convinced me about that Ahamedinejad. Very persuasive.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Anonymous1:12 AM

    shargash said...

    "I really get tired of the wingnuts citing Vietnam as a case where America would have won if only we had "taken off the gloves.""

    It's not that we would have won, we wouldn't have, but the gloves were really on and tied behind our backs, mostly as a result of LBJ's micro-mismanagement. The end result being of course the unecessary loss of the lives of American troops.

    I disagree with some of your other points but the reasons behind the failure in Viet Nam would take writing a book. Which I don't think Glen would appreciate me doing on his Blog. :) I always recommend reading "A Bright Shining Lie" by Neil Sheehan if you haven't read it already and if you want the true reasons for the failure there. Reasons that I can verify from the three years I spent there myself.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Anonymous1:12 AM

    Umm. Don't know how to break this to you, but Hitchens is firmly against bombing Iran. He advocates open and direct negotiations. But, go ahead, just take that Angry Muslim apologist, Juan Cole, at his word.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Anonymous1:28 AM

    The disclosure of an allegedly private communication is an issue between Hitchens and Cole. Personally, I could not care less that it was intended to be shared only within a certain group of people. The content is the content.

    Cole has been, and continues to be, one of the leading apologists for Angry Muslims. This latest bit was hardly surprising.

    ReplyDelete
  126. This is a new low for chickenhawkery.

    I once attempted a screed to the effect that chicken hawks are not merely cowards, they're elitists too.

    This really works to that theory's advantage. They want to bring back full bore ethnocentricism. The British Empire thought it was pretty snazzy too.

    Shorter: "It's ok to kill people in other countries because we're better than them, and our lives are worth more"

    Does Shelby have an account at Freerepublic? Writing stuff like this, it wouldn't surprise me.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Anonymous1:34 AM

    There is nothing - and I mean NOTHING - as bloodthirsty as a chickenhawk.

    Nothing in the world.

    ReplyDelete
  128. hidden imam: I could not care less that it was intended to be shared only within a certain group of people. The content is the content.

    Cole has been, and continues to be, one of the leading apologists for Angry Muslims. This latest bit was hardly surprising.


    Of course you don't care. Therefore, please forward to me all your personal mail and emails so I can publish them on the internet. Thanks.

    As far as Cole being the "Angry Muslim aplogist, does this 1) even make any sense besides simple-minded emotionalism? 2) What, in his response to Hitchens or any other of his postings at his blog leads you to think he approves of, I guess, "angry muslims."

    In the Hitchens response, Cole shows what he thinks of at least one "angry" Moslem, Ahmedinajad. He calls him a "pissant." Great apology that.

    In essence, your entire superficial cant originates, I guess, from the fact that Cole opposes the pro-Israel lobby. He has, as I imagine you are well aware, sent out a petition in support of the Mearshimer/Walt paper. This fact--and this fact alone--makes him for you an "Angry Muslim Apologist."

    This one fact blinds you to any other statement that Cole might make--so matter how reasonable, common-sense or informed those statements might be.

    ReplyDelete
  129. is stephen colbert writing shelby steele's material for him?

    ReplyDelete
  130. Anonymous1:54 AM

    Anonymous said...

    "There is nothing - and I mean NOTHING - as bloodthirsty as a chickenhawk.

    Nothing in the world."

    True enough but they also have one other peculiar trait, they are the only bloodthirsty animals in the world that refuse to go get their own blood. They always want to send someone else. :)

    ReplyDelete
  131. Yeah, we're not being rough enough with these wogs. I mean, we aren't doing things like this:

    Iraqi, 15, 'drowned after soldiers forced him into canal'

    An Iraqi teenager drowned after four British soldiers forced him into a canal at gunpoint to "teach him a lesson" for suspected looting, a court martial heard yesterday.

    The soldiers watched as Ahmed Jabar Karheem, 15, who was unable to swim, began to struggle when he was ordered into the Shatt al-Basra canal in May 2003. After the boy disappeared below the surface, the soldiers drove away. His body was recovered two days later.

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  132. New Zealand has been a "force" for good in the world. They usually mind their own business and don't have to "force" themselves to do it.

    You may wanna speak to some Western Samoans about that some time.

    I love my country, and think it's better than most in the world. But we do have our own history to contend with.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Look at the facts... IMO, "Our Civilization" is absolutely Superior to every other civilization that has ever existed on this planet in it's entire history.

    My civilization doesn't torture people.

    Yours does.

    You lose. Case closed.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Further, we are almost guaranteed to hold this position- no matter what!- for the next 50-75 years(Have you actually looked at our "budgets"(Defense and Entitlements) compared to the rest of the world?

    If things go on as they are for the next fifty to seventy five years, you'd better learn Cantonese - the Chinese'll own your country, and you'll be working for them.

    Looked at the foreign debt statistics recently?

    ReplyDelete
  135. Anonymous2:41 AM

    Would the kind of articles being written by the Right today have been written during the Cold War?

    No. And yet, The Cold War was far more dangerous than a bunch of criminal groups doing what was done in the 1970's and 1980's - blow things up.

    It seems the Republicans are truly missing the Soviet Union to rail against; to give Republicans meaning.

    The tragic result is that the Republicans have started to become the very evil they railed against during the Cold War; indeed, using some of the very same rhetoric and actions that made Reagan declare the Soviet Union an Evil Empire.

    And not that many around political power seem to care.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous3:11 AM

    (first time commenting on glenn's blog...)

    "In other words, the reason we failed to win in Korea, lost in Vietnam, and are bogged down in Iraq is because we are too afraid to do the right thing -- use all-out military force against our Enemies."

    Actually, I have had similar thoughts and made similar comments about our choice to not use "all-out" force -- but for different reasons.

    It doesn't have to anything to do with "white guilt."

    In World War II, we went to war with a determination to use everything we had, because we knew the stakes were extremely high and it was bound to be a very bloody deathmatch.

    In other conflicts, though, like Vietnam, or Mogadishu, or Iraq, the stakes are very low. In the case of Iraq, you can't justify the same kind of "all-out" tactics because it's just not worth it to us.

    IF (a big hypothetical IF) Saddam and the Baathists had been directly responsible for 9/11, and if he did have nuclear weapons he intended to use against the US, few people would be complaining now about the mess we have made of Iraq, or the Iraqi casualties, or the levels of force we used. Most people wouldn't care because the stakes would be so high AND SO CLEAR that there would be no second-guessing.

    But that's not the case. This war was optional, from beginning to end. The fact that it's just a huge cluster-fuck right now is even of less importance than the fact that we know we didn't need to be there. Fools like Evan Thomas still justify the war by saying things like, "Well, we were going to have to do it some day." That's a far cry from saying we have to do it now, and with everything we've got, or we will lose our lives or our liberty.

    The wingnutters that buy into the WP article's argument, though, may actually see it in those apocalyptic terms, that Saddam was SO incredibly evil, and we were SO in danger of their grave and gathering threat that all-out war was justifiable.

    That is their delusion, though. Good luck convincing anybody else of that, that hasn't already drunk the Kool-aid without barfing it up again.

    One more comment... The use of all-out force against non-white, or "barbarian" peoples, doesn't have that clear a record of success. The Italians in Algeria in World War II ran into the same problems. Mussolini's brutal genocidal approach to the insurgency problem didn't help him at all. Competence still matters more than brutality.

    -- Dumbo

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  137. phd9:

    We can always carry the logic to its full conclusion. If we kill everyone in the world who isn't us, then we won't have any enemies anymore.

    I think Randy Newman put it most lyrically in his masterpiece "Political Science".

    Here's a musical flash of it for you, and with amazingly up-to-date visuals....

    You're welcome. Enjoy ... or maybe the humour's just a bit like Colbert's speech last Saturday: Too true to be really funny.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  138. Anonymous4:36 AM

    "Looking at the bright side of this deranged rhetoric, it is, in a sense, refreshing to see that many of these war supporters, in their great frustration, are finally relinquishing their solemn concern for the Iraqi people..." This is exactly right. Although they'll admit it only reluctantly, too many of the war's supporters do not care a whit about the well-being of the Iraqi people, or the spread of democracy. They care about American control over a country with one of the Middle East's biggest oil reserves--preferably by a puppet government, and with a grateful populace. But, if the Iraqis don't have the good sense to be grateful and pliable, a brutal occupation force and a bloodied (and permanently cowed) population will do nicely. If you want to win "hearts and minds," carpet bombing makes no sense. If you want to rule by force and intimidation, as an imperial power must, then bombs away. The Romans had no qualms about "destroying a city to hold it." And hold them they did. Fortunately, I think very few Americans have the appetite for the indescriminate violence that imperialism requires--not because of some absurd reason like white guilt, but because it's immoral. However much we may want a $1 gallon of gas, Americans are supposed to be the good guys.

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  139. Anonymous4:37 AM

    As the carefully constructed myth of a New World Order begins to crumble under the force of reality the troglodytes spin their bloody revenge fantasies. Feeling themselves victims, unwilling and unable to acknowledge their fundamental misapprehension of global politics, they lash out to attack those they see as weak. Like the schoolyard bullies they would have been if they had had the guts to actually raise a fist, they pick an opponent they are sure they can beat and start in kicking. These are the same moral midgets who, after bombing Vietnam "back to the stone age," blame the loss of that war on dope smoking hippies and John Kerry. I think the thing we all fear is that these freaks have enough pull in the present administration to believe that tactical nuclear strikes on Iran would serve any purpose other than starting World War III. God help us all.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous5:51 AM

    The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.

    -Arabian Proverb

    Explanation: 1. Illustrates the situation where many minor characters may be vocal and loud, but the main idea or project will continue to progress.

    Is that all we are? Dogs who are barking as the caravan moves on?

    Yikes.

    Don't fear "the Jackal": The growing paranoia of Dick Cheney

    There's a lot for the blogosphere to buzz about tonight, and into that mix comes a fairly explosive profile of Dick Cheney in the new Vanity Fair, written by Todd Purdum....

    Just the short excepts that we've seen will confirm your worst fears, that the man who steered us into Iraq and is now pushing us toward Iran, and possibly a nuclear war there, is a raving victim of paranoia.

    Read it and weep:

    "Purdum reports that Cheney travels with a chemical-biological suit at all times. When he gave his friend Robin West and his twin children a ride to the White House a couple of years ago, West commented on the fact that Cheney’s motorcade varied its daily path. “And he said, ‘Yeah, we take different routes so that “The Jackal” can’t get me,’” West tells Purdum. “And then there was this big duffel bag in the middle of the backseat, and I said, ‘What’s that? It’s not very roomy in here.’ And [Cheney] said, ‘No, because it’s a chemical-biological suit,’ and he looked at it and said, ‘Robin, there’s only one. You lose.’"

    This is scary stuff, indeed. For those of you under 40ish, "The Day of the Jackal" was a Frederick Forsyth thriller, made into a 1973 movie, that follows an assassin's attempt to kill Charles DeGaulle (Spoiler alert: He misses...duh). For some men, four heart attacks might trigger a kind of fatalism, but the Cheney effect seems to be the reverse, an over-the-top survivalist instinct -- no doubt worsened by his many months brooding in "undisclosed locations" -- and the growing belief that people are out to get him on every street corner.

    Do you want this guy holding the hand of the guy with his finger on the button?


    You know how criminals always have to look over their shoulders? Eventually they get paranoid.

    But we are not criminals!

    It is so unfair that we are all forced to live in the nightmare world they created when they first started, long ago, to go on their Crime Spree. And we are just dogs barking in the night as their caravan slowly, inexorably but horrifyingly continues to move on.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Anonymous6:02 AM

    Phoenician in a time of Romans said...

    My civilization doesn't torture people.

    Yours does.

    You lose. Case closed.


    If it is really true (I have no idea) that phoenician's civilization doesn't torture people, then I would agree with him the case is closed.

    Sad, considering how this country started out.

    You can argue both sides of a lot of things in this world, but you cannot argue about a 15 year old Iraqi boy in a time of turmoil being murdered by a bunch of British (our allies) sadistic thugs.

    The "Finger Men" in action, I suppose. (from V is for Vendetta).

    ReplyDelete
  142. Anonymous6:21 AM

    Reading Mr. Steele make one wonder if we are not of superior "Aryenne"
    race? He is so close to the gibberish of Hitler it is chilling to say the least!

    ReplyDelete
  143. Anonymous6:28 AM

    In the chaos of Iraq, one project is on target: a giant US embassy called by the Iraqis "George W.'s Palace"

    In the pavement cafés, people moan that the structure is bigger than anything Saddam Hussein built. They are not impressed by the architects’ claims that the diplomatic outpost will be visible from space and cover an area that is larger than the Vatican city and big enough to accommodate four Millennium Domes. They are more interested in knowing whether the US State Department paid for the prime real estate or simply took it.

    While families in the capital suffer electricity cuts, queue all day to fuel their cars and wait for water pipes to be connected, the US mission due to open in June next year will have...
    the biggest swimming pool in Iraq, a state-of-the-art gymnasium, a cinema, restaurants offering delicacies from favourite US food chains, tennis courts and a swish American Club for evening functions.


    (Evening Functions: See Traffiking, Human.)

    Ozymandias
    By Percy Bysshe Shelley

    I met a traveller from an antique land,
    Who said--"Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
    Stand in the desart....Near them, on the sand,
    Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
    And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
    Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
    Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
    The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
    And on the pedestal, these words appear:
    My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings,
    Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
    Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
    Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
    The lone and level sands stretch far away."

    ReplyDelete
  144. Anonymous8:04 AM

    Roughly a million Vietnamese died in our war there.

    Well over a hundred thousand Iraqis have died to date.

    I'd hate to see what "unrestrained" looked like.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Having an aversion to spending any sweat in an effort trying to pound a square peg into a round hole I don't think I would ever be able to convince myself to adapt the mindview of what passes as a mainstream conservative these days.

    "You say we face a nonconventional enemy loosely scattered about the world? We need to start a conventional war against a nation-state in the Middle East that wasn't involved and occupy it for at least the next century."

    These kids should be at that back of a very short bus, not behind the driver's wheel with their foot on the accelerator.

    ReplyDelete
  146. Gee, that must be why we had such a great economy after Vietnam ended, and the world embraced us with open arms...(You know, the first and only "lost" war). And what in the hell is a "wussie" war? Idiotic buzz words for the Keyboard commandos, no doubt. Sure would like to see Mr. Steele approach any combat veteran from any conflict with that one.
    I guess it is mostly about selling books, because I really don't see a “guilt” rational being a cause for war. Wars and their out come are embraced by fear, economy, propaganda and the like, guilt has little to do with it. And if Steele thinks the Iraq war has been thwarted by "political correctness" he obviously has ignored the incidents of prisoner torture, DU munitions, possible use of white phosphorus, corruption and the blatant war profiteering. It appears the right is picking up some of the "psycho babble" that they constantly accuse the liberals of being guilty of.
    As far as democracy in Iraq, that has got to be a front. As most everyone knew (except the lied to U.S. public) prior to entering Iraq, the chances of an insurgency developing and or a probable civil war occurring were very high. Also, Steele states: ..” our war effort in Iraq is shrouded in a new language of social work in which democracy is cast as an instrument of social transformation bringing new institutions, new relations between men and women, new ideas of individual autonomy, new and more open forms of education, new ways of overcoming poverty--war as the Great Society”. No matter how you want to interpret that statement, it just does not matter. Before Iraq fell from grace, they had a respectable economy for that region and a fairly well educated society prior to the U.N. sanctions and the U.S. invasions. There was nothing “shrouded” about how the PNAC, through the Bush administration sold the second war as a liberation and a restoration of democratic civility, to usher in a new open market economy that would pay for itself, now that’s something to feel guilty about!. Three years after our “liberation of Iraq” they have no government, they have little gas & electric, less food and water along with the addition of constant violence. Mr. Steele, where I come from that is known as going from the frying pan into the fire…not good, and not that hard to understand

    ReplyDelete
  147. This goes ahead of my post above...it may or may not make more sense...

    Steele says:
    "a military victory makes us look like an imperialist nation bent on occupying and raping the resources of a poor brown nation, then victory would mean less because it would have no legitimacy. Europe would scorn. Conversely, if America suffered a military loss in Iraq but in so doing dispelled the imperialist stigma, the loss would be seen as a necessary sacrifice made to restore our nation's legitimacy. Europe's halls of internationalism would suddenly open to us."

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous9:17 AM

    Michaelgalien said

    But I am always wondering; what is the best way of dealing with this? Are arguments like these so incredibly ridiculous that I should ignore them (after having laughed about it) or is ignoring never the right option?

    I should have been more clear in my original Post. I am not really saying we should ignore this off-the-wall stuff. Just that we should treat it as the off-the-wall stuff that it is.

    By that I mean, don't waste time arging that it was white liberal guilt. Because the last thing liberals need is to crouch further down in a defensive posture ... that's what the liberals in Congress have been doing for the last 6 years and look how well that's working.

    Steele's "white guilt" argument is better approached with bug spray or a butterfly net (Swiftian satire).

    Catch the crazy thing and pin it to a 3x5 card for observation as an example of Wingnut Reasoning, Academic Division, Category Inanities, #85.

    Save the Orwellian passion and reasoned logic for the "more bombing will work" part of the argument.

    Which -- to the credit of this blog -- most commenters have done.

    ReplyDelete
  149. Anonymous9:29 AM

    Mix Steel's white-might-is-right attitude together with the Bush administration's arrogance and garnish it with W's messianic ignorance and you've got a recipe Wolgang Puck might call "Grim Goulash". It's a poison that was once concocted in Germany in the early twentieth century.

    ReplyDelete
  150. Anonymous9:33 AM

    Just for the record, I don't think that the US has ever held back in any of its wars. The record has consistently been insane levels of overkill, animalistic ferocity and a degree of ruthlessness that would intimidate Nazi's.

    Consider Iraq:

    - Shock and awe barrage of cruise missiles and smart bombs.

    - Attempts to take out the high command based on rumours that they were at civilian locations. Obliteration of civilians in those locations.

    - Approximately 150,000 Iraqi's dead by now. Perhaps number is closer to 200,000. The ratio of dead Iraqi's to dead Americans is somewhere between 50 to 1 and 100 to 1.

    - Use of depleted Uranium munitions for greater kill power, without regard to toxicological effects.

    - Use of 500 pound bombs dropped in civilian locations.

    - Use of White Phosporous on human targets (chemical weapons and a probable war crime).

    - Use of cluster bombs.

    - Targeted destruction of infrastructure, which has not been repaired.

    - Opening fire on demonstrators. Arbitrary arrest and imprisonments of tens of thousands. Indiscriminate use of torture at Abu Ghraib.

    - Destruction of Fallujah.

    - And on and on...

    I don't honestly see any way in which you guys are holding back, unless you are contemplating active genocide.

    ReplyDelete
  151. Anonymous10:32 AM

    Professor Foland said, "I'd hate to see what "unrestrained" looked like."

    One must not forget that many on the right have commonly taken the position "just nuke them" against many adversaries and really do believe that Viet Nam was "lost" because of lack of real resolve and willingness to loose all means of force. Also remember that many of those on the right consider themselves to be "Old Testament Christians." Consider the dedication to placing the Ten Commandments in the courthouses and the rates of incarceration of blacks in the South.

    In response to Professor Foland's question, one need look no farther than the Old Testament book of Joshua where the marching orders of the Israelites entering Palestine was total destruction of all people, animals, and even fruit trees. This is the model of the nuk'em crowd. They consider Iraq and Vietname to be failures of resolve and view the German invasion of the Ukraine as a job properly carried out according to the rules of conquest set forth in Joshua.

    Steele answer the question of why we invaded Iraq--the only answer is conquest and in the view of many rightwingers, Bush has screwed it up because he failed to
    follow the Joshua rules.

    By making the tacit beliefs of so many rightwingers explicit, the language of meme is developing toward a feroceous war including not only Iraq, but also Iran and more. If it begins, it will be the end of U. S. world hegemony. The logistics and population components are impossible for the U.S.

    The better question is how do we stop the U.S. from committing colletive suicide at the behest of the wackos?

    ReplyDelete
  152. Glenn:

    Weren't you just defending the views of a half dozen generals who shared many of Steele's views about not using enough force?

    Now you appear to be defending the Rummy "minimalist" approach.

    Do you have a position on this subject yourself or is this just you latest target of opportunity to take shots at the Right?

    ReplyDelete
  153. Anonymous10:45 AM

    Just for the record, I don't think that the US has ever held back in any of its wars.

    Actually I think the US has either lost or drawn every armed conflict since WW2. With the possible exceptions of Grenada and Panama.

    In fact OBL cited the vanquishing of the Army by a local warlord in Somalia as proof that we are surrender monkeys. (My term.)

    There was even a movie called "The Mouse That Roared" in which a country the size of Monaco declares war on the US with the intention of losing in order to reap the benefits of rebuilding. Back then it was a comedy, today it's an uncomfortable truth.

    ReplyDelete
  154. Anonymous11:05 AM

    And the peanut gallery has arrived.

    Morning Bart. Morning shooter.

    ReplyDelete
  155. Anonymous11:13 AM

    the hidden imam said @ 9:39 AM:

    At some point, Israel, like every other new nation, Iraq for instance, has to learne to stand on it's own. It has the only nukes in the ME. They don't need us. They need to get along with their neighbors. Or move.

    bart said... @ 10:35 AM:

    Bart,

    I would this from imam, dog, fly, and shooter. Definitely not what I would expect from you. You know better, and Glenn isn't a fool, even if not familiar with matters military. It's really beneath you.

    Shooter242 said @ 10:45 AM... ,

    See what I mean, Bart.

    Shooter, you left out Reagan in Lebanon and Bush 1 in GW I. Bart knows better about mission objectives and the legal definiton of war as opposed to all the other fine euphemisms they come up with for projecting MP all over the globe. Let him explain it to you.

    You guys are the mice that are squeaking now. Best of luck to you. Maybe you can rebuild, too.

    ReplyDelete
  156. Anonymous11:13 AM

    Steele does not mention that carpet and fire bombing tactics when they were used in WW2 against Japan and Germany - which killed hundreds of thousands of civilians - are largely regarded to have been ineffective in a military sense as German war industrial war production increased during the time.

    ReplyDelete
  157. Anonymous11:24 AM

    I wonder if Steele's "white guilt" thesis does not call for a return to a segregated army in the USA. He seems to believe that WWII was the last time the US armed forces "got it right." However, white America's underappreciation of the heroism and bravery of black soldiers during WWII was a major impetus behind the post-war civil rights movement. The push to end Jim Crow in civilian life inevitably entailed the end of segretation in the armed forces. Today, the armed forces constitute just about the most integrated sector of American life.

    Is not Steele unconsiously suggesting that American somehow would be better off if it undid all that? That an all white army would be more remorseless in subjugating the brown skinned people of the Mideast and elsewhere?

    ReplyDelete
  158. Steele should stick with his very pointed and effective critiques on the government racial discrimination marketed as "affirmative action." He obviously knows next to nothing about the modern military.

    As for his critique that the US military uses too little force post Vietnam, I can only think of two legitimate examples of this: 1) Carter's cutting the force level for the Iranian hostage rescue so as not to upset the Russians; and 2) Clinton's refusal to supply armor to Somalia for fear of "escalating" the conflict.

    Every other military operation post Vietnam has used enormous force and killed tens of thousands of the enemy. Steele is obviously clueless when he claims that the US has been "delicate with the enemy."

    The critique of smart bombs in favor of carpet bombing is particularly ignorant. Carpet bombing does not kill more of the enemy. It simply creates more dead civilians and a lot of rubble.

    What Steele reflects is the frustration with the slowness of a counterinsurgency campaign. Where the left wants to cut and run in the face of terrorism, some on the right want to lash out with ever greater force.

    Neither knee jerk reaction helps a counterinsurgency effort. Cutting and running hands an undeserved victory to the enemy while lashing out with blind force and killing more civilians merely reinforces an insurgency.

    The measured approach which we have taken in Iraq has been largely successful. The enemy among the Sunni have never been able to assemble enough fighters to pose a serious guerilla war against either the Coaltion or the new Iraqi government and military. Instead, the Sunni in Iraq are increasingly joining the government and the military and often turning on terrorist groups like al Qaeda.

    If we had laid waste to some of the Sunni major cities as Steele and some on the right have called for, I guarantee the enemy would have a much larger force fighting us right now and the Iraqi government would be solely Shia and Kurd with a real Civil War under way.

    Instead, our attacks against Fallujah and then against al Qaeda strongholds through the Euphretes Valley were measured responses - decimating the enemy with targeted attacks while inflicting amazingly few civilian casualties (despite enemy propaganda to the contrary).

    ReplyDelete
  159. Anonymous11:28 AM

    Shooter, you left out Reagan in Lebanon and Bush 1 in GW I. Bart knows better about mission objectives and the legal definiton of war as opposed to all the other fine euphemisms they come up with for projecting MP all over the globe. Let him explain it to you.

    According to my handy-dandy wiki entry Reagan presided over the Beruit barracks bombing in 1983, we left in 1984. Saddam remained in power after
    the first Iraq war. What part of all that is a win?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing

    Granted I'm not a military guy, but police actions are by definition just holding on to the status quo. But if Bart wants to correct me, I'll accept it.

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous11:29 AM

    Actually, shooter, I'm glad you brought that Peter Sellers flick, The Mouse That Roared, up. There is a the Elephant or Lion that freaked out over a mouse. Ever seen a lion or elephant freak out over a mouse? You know why you haven't (except in your daily cartoons)? Think about it.

    General Odom will even be on MSNBC today. Hardball maybe, not sure.

    Do your homework and find out all about him. Then you can read him at the Hudson Institute, other places, and here...

    Gen. William Odom

    All four docs at the link are topical, but you want to read What's Wrong With Cutting and Running" first.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Anonymous11:34 AM

    Granted I'm not a military guy

    No, you are not, so you're operating from ignorance. Bart, on the other hand, knows better but chooses to resort to cheap sophistry. I'm disappointed.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous11:40 AM

    After Press Dinner, the Blogosphere Is Alive With the Sound of Colbert Chatter

    A 20-minute address that was either hilarious and brave or not very funny

    This NY Times article is only available to paid subsribers. Does anyone know how to link to the full text?

    Self-described "huge Bush detractor"
    Noam Scheiber of the New Republic writes "I laughed out loud maybe twice during Colbert's entire 20-odd minute routine. Colbert's problem, blogosphere conspiracy theories outstanding, is that he just wasn't very entertaining."

    Main Entry: re·al·i·ty
    Function: noun
    Pronunciation: re-'a-l&-te
    Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
    1 : Blogosphere conspiracy theory.

    ReplyDelete
  163. Anonymous11:43 AM

    Think about it this way. Under Bush and the neocons, the image they are projecting to our enemies and the world at large is of John Wayne in a dress up freaking out and jumping up on a chair with a broom in her hands swatting at a tiny little mouse scurrying around on the floor. That's what you guys are behaving like. Insecure little pussies concerned about how you look. You bet your ass I'm ashamed to be an American, and you should be too under this pussified regime of selfish assholes who had "other priorities" when it came time for them to serve.

    ReplyDelete
  164. Shooter242 said...

    Just for the record, I don't think that the US has ever held back in any of its wars.

    Actually I think the US has either lost or drawn every armed conflict since WW2. With the possible exceptions of Grenada and Panama.


    Winning and losing is based on whether or not we achieve our stated objectives. Some of our military conflicts are difficult to evaluate in that manner because the civilians did not clearly state what our objectives were in going to war.

    Korea is a case in point. We won if our objective was to protect SK from NK conquest. It was a loss if our objective was to liberate NK, which was never stated, but appeared to be a welcome result of McArthur's counter offensive up to the Yalu. It was a tie if both sides objectives were the military defeat of the other.

    Vietnam was a loss by any measure. Our objective was to protect SV from conquest by NV and failed.

    Somalia is another objectiveness war without any end result in mind. Militarily, we won every engagement decisively. The Rangers properly consider the Battle of Mog one of their finest victories. Outnumbered over 10-1, the Rangers inflicted 1500 enemy KIA with only a handful of losses to their ranks.

    Every other military campaign of any significant size in which we have engaged since Vietnam were clear victories, including the Iraq War. We achieved all of our objectives in all of them.

    ReplyDelete
  165. Anonymous11:56 AM

    Mexico to Allow Use of Drugs
    Fox will sign the bill, one of the world's most permissive policies, in a bid to curb trafficking. U.S. officials say it will lead to more addiction.


    If you are in the mood to really get mad about the inequity of our criminal justice system (I am always in that mood) here's a good article by Paul Craig Roberts.

    Fake Crimes

    Consider justice. The US has the highest rate of incarceration in the world and imprisons 6 to 10 times as many people as any other industrialized country. Between 1990 and 2000 the US population increased 13%. The US prison population more than tripled.

    There are hundreds of thousands of innocent Americans in prison. They are there because the criminal justice system no longer works to discover the truth of a crime, but to convict at all cost whoever happens to be charged with a crime. And they are there because the US criminalizes more acts than any other country in the world, including tyrannical police states.


    I hope hypatia will weigh in on this recent action by Mexico. I wonder what the implications are for this country?

    ReplyDelete
  166. The Great American Decline

    Yesterday was the first time that all of my favorite bloggers – Glenn, Billmon, Neiwart and Digby weighed in on the same subject – and a most unpleasant subject it was: the beginning of the campaign for America to accept genocide, just as it has torture.

    Yes, as Glenn put it, “the masks are coming off.” The real question is to what extent has the administration’s thinking gone in this direction? Of course, Bush will never come out and say what we’re doing in a speech, but his actions speak louder than words – and his actions have belied his words in the lead-up and execution of the war on Iraq, so we won’t know until he acts.

    Actually, I don’t think we’ll embrace our new found genocidal proclivities in Iraq, I think we’ll withdraw to bunkers near the oil wells and let the Iraqis kill themselves, while we live in the luxury of our vast new embassy and permanent bases. I think we’ll get our “genocide” on in Iran – or at least attempt prove we’re beyond “white guilt” by bombing the hell out of it.

    But all that will prove is how badly Bush is losing – and losing it – both on the world stage and at home, and that is why the masks are coming off. The idea that we did not win in Vietnam because we were so “restrained” is absurd, the opposite is true, just as it is in Iraq.

    As Billmon pointed out, “there hasn't been a single example of a country or a people surrendering simply because they were bombed back into Stone Age.” If we had left Vietnam a smoldering humanless ruinous wasteland would that have been a victory?

    That’s true in Iraq too, we are losing because we’ve been arrogant heavy handed with flawed policies poorly executed. Our real generals, writes Billmon, “have tried massive search-and-destroy sweeps, mass arrests, "oil spot" pacification campaigns, surrounding entire cities with barbed wire fences, clearing others (Fallujah and Tel Afer) block by block, selective bombing, precision bombing, revenge bombing. We've had Marines go house to house killing everyone they find. We've dropped 500 pound bombs in crowded urban neighborhoods, we've shot people (lots of people) on sight for driving too close to military convoys.”

    We tried impose a government of our liking and our interests on another country in the name of democracy, and it didn’t work. Bush was against popular elections, and Sistani was the one who called for them. If Iraq ever does become a democracy, it won’t be because of Bush.

    The new calls for “genocide” to assert our lost “masculinity” and the superiority of our civilization are nothing more than the last gasps of insecure bullies who have been exposed as cowards and frauds – who are cornered and are now very dangerous.

    The frauds have taken place not only in foreign policy but at home as well, and Katrina pulled the mask off of the rampant racism that still exists in this country – oh, yes, we’ve gotten beyond our “white guilt” – and were now embracing our inner Klansmen. It’s ugly.

    As Diby put it, “The only thing I can add is that I'm not surprised, by either the racism or the embrace of all out war against the the newly "liberated" Iraqis. The conservative experiment is melting down. William F Buckley got what he always wanted and it turned out to be bullshit. We are finally seeing the facade of civilization crumble, leaving only the conservative id.

    The argument here is that racism is dead so we needn't worry about killing, deporting, marginalizing or demonizing "the other." How convenient for the party that has been exploiting the southern strategy for forty years and finds itself nearly as unpopular as the disgraced president who first embraced it.”

    But Bush’s failures and conservative failures are also America’s failures. It will probably be noted as the point in history as the start of the end of America’s preeminence in the world. That will be Bush’s legacy – the destruction of America from within.

    After 9/11 Bush had the world and the country behind him, he could have done great things with that support, but he didn’t. Instead he chose to use 9/11 to divide the country and implement policies that turned the world against us.

    The Bushies have been talking about “turning points” in Iraq for over 3 years, but the real turning point has been in this country, and it’s not been for the better. We have become the “evil empire” that we was fought against – at least part of America has anyway.

    We are seeing the start of the The Great American Decline – Bush’s epitaph.

    ReplyDelete
  167. Anonymous12:55 PM

    Worst. Comment. Thread. Ever. and possibly the worst post by Mr. Greenwald. Until Shooter showed up, the commenters were pretty much in over their heads. All knee jerks, no serious discussion. Ready, Fire, Aim. Phooey! And, no, I couldn't do any better, but at least I know that.

    ReplyDelete
  168. Anonymous1:19 PM

    Funny thing about scorched earth ... nobody can live on it, except maybe cockroaches.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Anonymous2:14 PM

    If Arlen Specter is going to hold hearings into lawbreaking, I hope he intends to identify the Mob Bosses who are behind all the lawlessness.

    For another piercing article on those Mob Bosses (also known as The War Party):

    http://antiwar.com/justin/

    "War With Iran? It would mean the end of our Republic"

    Seems the real problem is the same one that has kept, according to one recent article, Sen. Feingold's Presidential possibilities from "taking off".

    Money.

    Looks like some very deep-pocketed big donor is going to have to show up to save this country. Wonder why one hasn't done that already?

    There isn't one Patriotic Billionaire lurking out there some place?

    Why does Bill Gates think that immunizing third world children is a substitute for preserving our Constitutional Republic?

    Does he plan to raise his own children in another country?

    ReplyDelete
  170. Anonymous2:23 PM

    I'm guessing that the "... belief ... which sustains" Messrs. Steele, Goldstein and Noonam "through the difficult day to day of the War on Terrorism" is that they are too old for any draft to ever compel them to put their bodies where their mouths are.

    ReplyDelete
  171. Anonymous2:44 PM

    Winning and losing is based on whether or not we achieve our stated objectives. Some of our military conflicts are difficult to evaluate in that manner because the civilians did not clearly state what our objectives were in going to war.

    I'll be more than happy to stipulate that our military is the best around. I'm trying to convey the meekness of civilian control when confronted by other governments. In Somalia, the battle of Mog may be a heroic event but I and the rest of the world only know "Blackhawk Down". The military didn't retreat, but our government sure did, yes?

    Regarding the first Gulf War, certainly the Iraqi's were pushed back quickly and efficiently, but Saddam suffered little consequence other than losing forces. Politically, I have a hard time calling that a win. It's like no harm, no foul. Hmmm. that's not bad. How about.... "politically we have lost or drawn every armed conflict since WW2. Except for Grenada and Panama. How does that sit?

    ReplyDelete
  172. Anonymous3:01 PM

    So...do their arguments correlate White identity with violence, then?

    This new direction the hawks are taking is absolutely terrifying. But we all sort of knew/said that when cornered, they would take off the gloves/mask, didn't we?

    ReplyDelete
  173. Anonymous3:58 PM

    Overwhelming force can't work against a guerilla insurgency. Especially with the way our modern military is structured to favor stand-off weapons, such a tactic is only effective against command and control and logistical insfrastructure. Guerillas don't need to have those things.

    ReplyDelete
  174. Anonymous4:07 PM

    bart said...

    Winning and losing is based on whether or not we achieve our stated objectives.


    This is more creative, and deserving of the term "sophistry".

    Winning or losing has nothing to do with achieving "stated objectives". Achieving every stated objective is about accomplishing every mission and objective. The media didn't create this meme about Nam, "We won every major battle and lost the war." The propagandists like you did.


    notherbob2 said...
    Worst. Comment. Thread. Ever. and possibly the worst post by Mr. Greenwald. Until Shooter showed up, the commenters were pretty much in over their heads. All knee jerks, no serious discussion. Ready, Fire, Aim. Phooey! And, no, I couldn't do any better, but at least I know that.

    12:55 PM


    I forgot to include this moron in my earlier list. How embarassing for you, Bart. No wonder you lose every battle here. No wonder you never achieve one mission. Look at the slack-jawed drek sniffers you have to work with.

    ReplyDelete
  175. Anonymous4:14 PM

    Shooter said:


    I'll be more than happy to stipulate that our military is the best around.


    That's what all the Greeks thought about Sparta. Don't you read VDHandsome?


    I'm trying to convey the meekness of civilian control when confronted by other governments. In Somalia

    Somalia? Government?

    Go back to your war movies and First Person Shooters, son. Somalia is probably the best living example of Bart's and EWO's wet dream of no government and unrestrained capitalism. If Bushco and you morons on the right had your wet dream, the whole world would look like that.

    ReplyDelete
  176. Anonymous4:20 PM

    Vietnam was a loss by any measure. Our objective was to protect SV from conquest by NV and failed.

    Vietnam was a loss because we didn't know that we were getting involved in an internal struggle to liberate a country from years of imperial rule and we backed the losers from the start, the bad guys.

    ReplyDelete
  177. Anonymous4:51 PM

    Den Valdron said...

    "Just for the record, I don't think that the US has ever held back in any of its wars. The record has consistently been insane levels of overkill, animalistic ferocity and a degree of ruthlessness that would intimidate Nazi's."

    Just for the record I wish you could have been my door gunner during my last tour in Viet Nam when we were supposed to call on the radio to higher up to get permission to return fire when we were being shot at.

    Even the police in this country have always had the right of self defense when being shot at without having to call the desk sergeant first.

    Or mabe you could have flown missions over over North Viet Nam. Where Johnson established a 30 mile no fire zone radious around Hanoi so the pilots could watch the surface to air missles being unloaded off of cargo ships that would be fired on them the next day, but couldn't do anything about it.

    ReplyDelete
  178. Anonymous4:59 PM

    notherbob2 said...

    "Worst. Comment. Thread. Ever. and possibly the worst post by Mr. Greenwald. Until Shooter showed up, the commenters were pretty much in over their heads. All knee jerks, no serious discussion. Ready, Fire, Aim. Phooey! And, no, I couldn't do any better, but at least I know that."

    Thanks for your evaluation notherbob2. Here is your check for $0.00 dollars. We won't be needing you next time.

    ReplyDelete
  179. so i guess the russian situation in chechnya and the french situation in algeria are the model?

    we should disband the international criminal court and eliminate the war crimes tribunal at the hague before we pursue the "criminal war option"

    ReplyDelete
  180. bart said...
    Glenn:

    Weren't you just defending the views of a half dozen generals who shared many of Steele's views about not using enough force?

    Now you appear to be defending the Rummy "minimalist" approach.

    Do you have a position on this subject yourself or is this just you latest target of opportunity to take shots at the Right?


    the generals wanted more troops, more materials, more of everything, which would enable us to more efficiently police the defeated country.

    shelby wants to eliminate "smart bombs," i.e., he wants to use bombs that will kill indiscriminately.

    don't see the difference, troll?

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  181. Anonymous7:03 PM

    Hulk smash!

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  182. Anonymous10:22 PM

    Gris Lobo @ 4:51 PM said...

    The truth is we drove them (The Vietnamese)into the arms of the communists, just like we did Castro. Back then, nobody wanted to go there, They just wanted to overthrow the corrupt dictatorships backed by imperialist powers. Even Nixon didn't think Castro was a communist, (Eisenhower snubbed him and sent Nixon in his place). When Castro didn't like the deal we offered him, he said, "Fuck you!" Good for him and Ceasar Chavez.

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  183. Anonymous10:30 AM

    Anonymous said...

    "Gris Lobo @ 4:51 PM said...

    The truth is we drove them (The Vietnamese)into the arms of the communists, just like we did Castro. Back then, nobody wanted to go there, They just wanted to overthrow the corrupt dictatorships backed by imperialist powers. Even Nixon didn't think Castro was a communist, (Eisenhower snubbed him and sent Nixon in his place). When Castro didn't like the deal we offered him, he said, "Fuck you!" Good for him and Ceasar Chavez."



    Yes we did.

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  184. Anonymous3:30 PM

    There is nothing wrong with going "hard" on extremists, but how might we distinguish the extremists, who are concealed amongst the innocent civilian population. Does this mean that we have to "kill a few civilians" in order to be harder on these extremists? Will we stoop that low?

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  185. Anonymous2:02 PM

    "Only American victory in Iraq defeats the idea of Islamic extremism."

    How did all of these right wingers manage to get through the membrane from their twisted parallel universes to my world?

    In my reality I can distinctly remember that the brutal, secular dictator Saddam Hussain had quite an iron grip on Islamic extremism married to a penchant for purges of radical religous sects that were a threat to him; during the time he ruled Iraq.

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  186. Anonymous5:17 PM

    "Will we stoop that low?"

    Uh, haven't we already gone that low?

    A more appropriate question would be "How do we get our government to stop stooping so low?"

    Vote them out!

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  187. Anonymous11:57 AM

    I read Shelby Steeles editorial in it's entirety and from where I sit, both the hard left and hard right have taken it, bent and shape it to their own devices as usual.

    To put it in simplest terms, Mr. Steele is simply saying if you're going to fight a war, fight a war and fight it to win it. Something akin to the Powell Doctrine:

    "military action should be used only as a last resort and only if there is a clear risk to national security by the intended target; the force, when used, should be overwhelming and disproportionate to the force used by the enemy; there must be strong support for the campaign by the general public; and there must be a clear exit strategy from the conflict in which the military is engaged"

    Clearly this war has not met these standard from the very beginning. And clearly the hard right is only taking the "overwhelming and disproportionate" piece of the doctrine into account. And the hard left is interpreting the same clause to mean the wholesale distruction of Iraq to include indiscriminant killing of civilians.

    The problem is Steele didn't advocate any of that. He simple put forth the idea that America doesn't fight wars the way they should be fought because we are afraid of the condemnation of the rest of the world, based upon what white people have done in the past. This to me seems like a plausible and debatable argument. To once again and as usual cast Mr. Steele as some boot-lickin Uncle Tom because he doesn't share the same views as the left or the black "intellectual" community, is off base as usual. Confront the man's ideas with your own and with the respect he deserves for the courage to put them out there.

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