"If cruelty is no longer declared unlawful, but instead is applied as a matter of policy, it alters the fundamental relationship of man to government. It destroys the whole notion of individual rights. The Constitution recognizes that man has an inherent right, not bestowed by the state or laws, to personal dignity, including the right to be free of cruelty. It applies to all human beings, not just in America--even those designated as 'unlawful enemy combatants.' If you make this exception, the whole Constitution crumbles. It's a transformative issue." - former general counsel of the U.S. Navy Alberto J. Mora, in "The Memo"
In A.L.'s "Defining America Down" post he noted that for the last four/five years the administration has been defining America's principles down. I think it's worse than that. I think our principles are being defined away. We used to be for human rights. Those have been defined away. We used to be for the rule of law. That has been defined away, too.
Yes, one can point out that there have been times in our past that we failed to live up to those ideals, to times that they were betrayed. But they were still there, and when an injustice was done, America could be called to task by pointing out we were failing to live up to a promise that was made in the Declaration of Independence and in the Bill of Rights. A promise that all humans are to be treated fairly, humanely, and equally before the law. When Frederick Douglass famously excoriated the United States on the Fourth of July for its hypocrisy in tolerating slavery, he pointed to the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights and reminded the nation that it was failing to live up to the principles that it claimed to hold sacrosanct.
But if the current administration gets its way, no one will be able to say we're failing to live up to our principles, because our principles will have been replaced with empty rhetoric that "is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." Rhetoric like: "extraordinary rendition," "enhanced interrogation technique," and "maximum flexibility." How else can you describe a statement like the following from George W. Bush on June 26, 2003 as anything but pure wind?
Torture anywhere is an affront to human dignity everywhere. We are committed to building a world where human rights are respected and protected by the rule of law…The United States is committed to the worldwide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example.Leading by example, how? By kidnapping people and sending people to countries that boil prisoners alive to be tortured? By "interrogating" people to death? By defining torture so narrowly that barely anything can be said to be torture? By arguing the right to torture people on technicalities? By arguing that those detained do not have the right to challenge torture?
In A.L.'s post he referenced a LA Times report that the Pentagon, with Cheney leading the charge, is now seeking to drop Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions from the Army Field Guide Manual which prohibits “humiliating and degrading treatment”. Unlike the other provisions where administration lawyers have sought to argue for the right to treat people cruely and inhumanely on technical grounds, there is no legal argument to be made for this. The provisions they seek to abandon apply to any person detained, regardless of their status as a POW. This is a flat our rebuke of the basic standards of human decency that the world agreed upon after World War II. Basic standards of decency meant to separate us from the people who committed the horrors of the Holocaust.
What strikes me is how shameless Cheney and his ideological allies are. They don't care if Congress passed legislation meant to suggest that cruel and inhumane treatment is unacceptable. They don't care if we can't bring terrorists to justice because the means by which we treat them are not admissable in court.*
They don’t care if experts believe that abandoning these basic standards of human decency will put our troops at risk around the world. They don't care if abandoning these standards turns opinion against us in the Arab world, where winning hearts and minds is a vital component of confronting terrorism. They don't care if those detained are radicalized by harsh treatment, creating the very threat they are supposed to be preventing.
They don’t care if the entire world, including our closest allies, begins to think that America is a rogue nation that will not follow internationally agreed upon rules of conduct. They do not care if these allies are reluctant to turn prisoners over to us because they fear that we will not treat them in a manner consistent with their laws prohibiting inhumane treatment. They do not care if the world thinks that we are hypocrites for declaring our commitment to human rights while quietly putting forth legal arguments that rules meant to protect human rights do not apply.
They don’t care if intelligence officials tell them that the use of torture as an interrogation method is unreliable, yielding more noise than intelligence. They don’t care if torturing Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi until he confessed the untrue statement that al Qaeda was being trained in chemical weapons in Iraq helped lead us into a costly and unnecessary war.
They don’t care if some grunts, a “few bad apples”, have to take the blame for their decisions to remove the guidelines meant to give our military clear standards of treatment to abide by. They don’t care if it has been demonstrated clearly that the abuses that have occurred are a result of upper level decisions to abandon the clear standards of treatment enshrined in the Geneva Conventions in favor of harsher interrogation tactics. They don't care if they were warned in advance that the legal theories they were arguing would invite abuse. They don't care if the abuses that took place at Abu Ghraib took place after interrogators under investigation for abuses (resulting in deaths ruled homicide) at Bagram were transferred there. They don't care if the abuses took place after the man who was in charge of Guantanamo, General Geoffrey Miller, where the Geneva Conventions did not apply, was transferred to Abu Ghraib to "Gitmo-ize" it.
They don't care about soldiers like Captain Ian Fishback begging for clear standards of conduct, bravely asking/stating
Do we sacrifice our ideals in order to preserve security? Terrorism inspires fear and suppresses ideals like freedom and individual rights. Overcoming the fear posed by terrorist threats is a tremendous test of our courage. Will we confront danger and adversity in order to preserve our ideals, or will our courage and commitment to individual rights wither at the prospect of sacrifice? My response is simple. If we abandon our ideals in the face of adversity and aggression, then those ideals were never really in our possession. I would rather die fighting than give up even the smallest part of the idea that is "America."They don't care about interrogators like Erik Saar who warn
The price we are paying for Gitmo is too high given the meager results we are getting. Guantanamo is a rallying cry throughout the Arab and Muslim world, and even some of our closest allies oppose us in this venture. The bottom line is this: the minimal intelligence we are gathering from those held in Cuba is not worth the harm we are doing to our international reputation. It's costing us our moral leadership in the world. How long until we pause, look over our shoulder, and find no one is following?They don't care that reports have shown that the bulk of people held at Gitmo don't belong there. They don't care if the ICRC reports that "certain CF military intelligence officers told the ICRC that in their estimate between 70% and 90% of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake." They don't care.
The question is: do we care? Do we care if our government tells us that freedom from cruel, degrading, and inhumane treatment are not basic human rights? In How Would A Patriot Act?, Glenn demonstrates that every power the administration claims to have to treat the targets of the "war on terror" inhumanely applies equally to American citizens. He writes
In its January 19, 2006, defense of the president, the Justice Department actually argued that the president's powers include "at minimum, discretion to employ the traditional incidents of the use of military force" within the United States and against U.S. citizens (p. 10 - 11). The memo also said the president can use these powers "wherever [terrorists] may be - on United States soil or abroad." And these powers, in turn, "include all that is necessary and proper for carrying these powers into execution" (p. 7).
And not only do they have the right to use those war powers against Americans on U.S. soil, they have the right to use them even if Congress makes it a crime to do so or the courts rule that doing so is illegal. Put another way, the administration has now flatly stated that whatever it is allowed to do to our enemies, it can also do to our citizens, and that neither Congress nor the courts can stop them.
Jose Padilla is an American citizen who lost the rights promised him by the Constitution because of nothing more than George Bush's fiat. If the Constitution does not protect Jose Padilla, it does not protect you. As Eric Alterman succinctly put it, "If Jose Padilla lives in a police state, then so do you."
One thing I believe the administration has correct is that we need to help spread democracy around the world. But democracy can not be spread by declaring that the most fundamental principles in our Constitution apply only to ourselves, or worse, only when George W. Bush decides they apply.
When John Yoo defined the President's powers to be without limit, he defined America away.
*Although the administraton, with the help of Congress, is working on making torture admissable in court.
UPDATE: If you're interested to know what argument the administration will be using to explain abandoning the minimum standards of humane treatment in the Geneva Conventions, Dave has written about it here, as well as the implications this might have in the future.
My first thought on seeing the headline in the LA Times the other morning was that that change would certainly make everyone in the command chain eligible for war crimes trials, right up to (and most definitely including) Bush and Cheney.
ReplyDeleteThese people make 'black helicopters' look like a reasonable solution. I'm almost looking forward to it.
Nice post.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I would add is that: American politicians don't act in a vaccuum, divorced from the electorate - they act WITH the electorate's consent (as an aggregate).
The root of the problem is that the ELECTORATE (as an aggregate) has been willing to give up its rights, and has been willing to go along with torture - of the brown-skinned in particular.
cdj,
ReplyDeleteI agree. Evidence of the electorate's fear-soaked complicity is echoed through the blogophone and radioland, which is connected straight into losers like Sens. Pat Roberts and John Cornyn who wash away concerns with the glib, idiotic "You don't need civil rights when you're dead".
I think Jack Baeur would disagree wholeheartedly with your "torture here or there should not be tolerated" talk.
ReplyDeleteGet a job.
If the Constitution does not protect Jose Padilla, it does not protect you.
ReplyDeleteThat's the bottom line!
If the Constitution does not protect Jose Padilla, it does not protect you.
ReplyDeleteThat's the bottom line
Get a job!!! There's got to be a way you can make money with these strong opinions. Why don't you try to be the liberal Bill O'Reilly or maybe even Rush Limbaugh.
ReplyDeleteAnd Shooter provides us all with a perfect example of what cdj points out.
ReplyDeleteShooter (McGavin?), I took your suggestions to heart. I stared at pictures of N and S Korea, the Japanese internment camps, the whole thing, and it just made me want to defend American ideals even more.
ReplyDeleteGot any other ideas?
I have an idea for you: Stick to golf and drinking, making logical arguments is not your forte.
Shooter sez,
ReplyDeleteI for one, am going to ignore the litany of complaints that passes for liberal commentary
Wow. Such a courageous break from stereotype. You're my hero.
"Maybe Bush will get Milosevic's old cell."
ReplyDeleteRiiiiiiiight. And if Pigs learn to Fly, we'll all have to carry heavy duty umbrellas.
Realistically, if the republicans do lose one or more house, it's not as though the giant crowd of 'red meaters' is going to evaporate. I'd imagine they'd be irate and vengeful. Limbaugh's not going away, nor is O'Reilley. Truth to tell, the Mightly Wurlitzer could lose entire ranks of pipes and still not stop playing. Indeed, I'm of the opinion that if dems take either the house or senate, we will see the anti-lib/anti-dem slant in the MSM increase. Dems winning seats is evidence of leftward tilt of the media yadda yadda.
Until the 'Liberal Media' myth gets dispelled, there's gonna be a lot of wheel spinning. Bolgs do what they can, and there are encouraging signs, and discouraging signs, sometimes at the same time. Case in point- TPMmuckraker's spat with the AP. The WP is occasionally giving credit to bloggers (Josh Marshall, Glenn) in news pieces, so the concept that blogs can have real impact or influence *is* getting beyond The Daily Show.
I'm guardedly hopeful.
Well as Scalia would no doubt say,
ReplyDelete"Freedom from cruelty is not one of the SPECIFIC rights given in either the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.
"Going by the Eight Amendment, Americans are free from cruel AND UNUSUAL punishments. And as everyone knows just being placed under the question is hardly punishment, no matter how unusual OR cruel it is.
"Which means as long as the cruelty is not an unusual punishment, the Supreme Court has no choice but to allow it."
I think I will be sick.
Minor nit:
ReplyDelete"Frederick Douglass"
Cheers,
Conditions in the US are becoming far worse than those that precipitated the American Revolution. An arrogant privileged overclass are allowed to rewrite the rules that govern society to their benefit, with no regard to the harm caused to others. The concentration of wealth and power equals or exceeds that of feudal Europe, while opportunities for social advancement have declined to an all-time low. And yet the peasantry remains blithely complacent, apparently waiting to give their attention to this crisis only when it comes out in a movie starring Tom Hanks.
ReplyDeleteOne distinction differentiates the modern corporate baron from the Peers of Olde England in the 18th century. The peers' capital was tied up in land, and could not conveniently be transferred to another country, whether that be a bank in the Caymans or a factory on the low-wage island of Saipan. This forced a noblesse oblige on the ruling class that is not in effect in this brave new world.
One wonders how many years of Democratic (o some other party) administrations it will take to restore the reputation of this country, repair the military and return to fiscal sanity.
ReplyDeleteRepublicans have absolutely no credibility on any of these issues. Every torture scandal and every new revelation of how the administration got into Iraq shows America as a hypocritical nation that doesn't live up to its ideals (as has already been ably argued in this blog by Anonymous Liberal and others). The military is apparently about 18 months away from taking decades to restore to full function - this according to a Colonel with a 30 year career (he was Colin Powell's aide at the State Dept., but his name escapes me - this was on Countdown last night). The deficit speaks for itself - the Republicans have raised the debt ceiling 5 times.
The cheapest, easiest and FIRST thing that should be done is returning to an America that lives up to the principles enshrined in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Although I think I know how Frederick Douglas must have felt regarding the likelihood of any real change coming in the short term.
Keep up the good fight Hume's Ghost - people have to be reminded of what we all are losing or they won't do anything about it all slipping away.
- Geekmouth
The Major said...
ReplyDeleteWell, we got Zarqawi didn't we.
I'm still not convinced this "major nuisance" isn't a piss poor attempt at parody, but he is right about one thing. It was one of his own men who tipped us off, but he wasn't tortured. He wasn't even captured. It was one of the newer Iraqi adherents who had recently joined Zarqawi, (previously his force had mostly been comprised of foreign fighters and outsiders) who decided it was time to take over from Zarqawi the Jordanian. He just dropped a dime on him. Not unlike some Iraqi would have eventually done with Saddam and both of his bastard kids, rendering this entire clusterfuck even more unnecessary, if that's even possible.
And the major said
ReplyDelete"I am a troll and I like to eat glue"
Yes, America has done bad things in the past, is doing bad things now and will probably do so in the future.
However America has also progressed. Actual slavery is dead. Women can vote, people can be gay.
The "terrorists" aren't a threat, an incompetent government that tries to cover up its incompetence by accumulating power is.
"Frederick Douglass"
ReplyDeleteThanks. I fixed it.
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDeleteGlenn, for the love of all that is holy, upgrade your software.
Please.
It's taking longer to post a comment than write it.
That is the upgrade, moron. It's designed to frustrate you in hopes you will go away. It works good, huh?
Cheney seems intent on "defining away" any security oversight, as exemplified by the article below.
ReplyDeletePropagandee
********
Cheney’s Office Declares Exemption from Secrecy Oversight
by Michelle Chen
The New Standard
*A correction was appended to this news article after initial publication.
June 7 – Thickening the haze of secrecy surrounding the executive branch, the Office of Vice President Dick Cheney has declared itself exempt from a yearly requirement to report how it uses its power to classify secret information.
In its 2005 report to the president released last month, the Information Security Oversight Office (ISOO), a branch of the National Archives, provides a quantitative overview of hundreds of thousands of pages of classified and declassified documents. But the vice president’s input consists of a single footnote explaining that his office failed to meet its reporting requirements for the third year in a row.
Open-government advocates say Cheney’s refusal to divulge even basic information about classification activities reflects an alarming pattern of broadening executive privilege while narrowing public accountability.
"It’s part of a larger assertiveness by the Office of the Vice President and a resistance to oversight," said Steve Aftergood of the Project on Government Secrecy, a division of the public-interest association Federation of American Scientists. "It’s as if they’re saying, ‘What we do is nobody’s business.’"
Though not the only government entity to shrug off the reporting duties, Cheney’s office is unique in that it has actually issued a public justification for its non-compliance. Cheney’s office argued on Monday that its dual role in the federal government places it above the reporting mandate.
Though not the only government entity to shrug off the reporting duties, Cheney’s office is unique in that it has actually issued a public justification for its non-compliance.
"This matter has been carefully reviewed, and it has been determined that the reporting requirement does not apply to [the Office of the Vice President], which has both executive and legislative functions," Lea McBride, a spokesperson for Cheney’s office, told The NewStandard.
Cheney’s press aides declined to specify to TNS how the office’s legislative role effectively exempted it from the executive order, or why the office had complied prior to 2003.
In a May 30 letter to J. William Leonard, director of the ISOO, the Project on Government Secrecy contended that Cheney’s rationale was illogical, because additional legislative functions should have no bearing on the vice president’s executive-branch obligations. Troubled by the continued non-compliance, the organization warned that if the ISOO did not act to enforce the vice president’s responsibilities under the executive order, "every agency will feel free to re-interpret the order in idiosyncratic and self-serving ways."
Each year, the ISOO publishes data on the amount of information classified by government entities, such as the Department of Justice and the Pentagon, and broadly analyzes how the bureaucracy processes national-security secrets. Mandated by an executive order, the report is intended to encourage greater accountability and minimize secrecy.
In 2003 – around the time Cheney’s office stopped reporting to the ISOO – the Bush administration affirmed and expanded the vice president’s classification powers through a revision of Executive Order 12958, the same order mandating the yearly ISOO assessment. The amended order explicitly granted the vice president unprecedented authority to classify information "in the performance of executive duties," including the ability to label information "secret" and "top secret" on par with the heads of federal agencies and the president himself.
Open-government advocates argue that argued the report on classification merely reflects the volume, not the individual public-interest value, of government secrets.
Critics also note another legal shield compounding the vice president’s reticence about how he handles secrets: Cheney enjoys general immunity from the Freedom of Information Act, which empowers members of the public with a process for demanding the release of government documents.
Along with Cheney’s office, the President’s Foreign-Intelligence Advisory Board and Homeland Security Council – both advisory bodies attached to the White House – also failed to report classification activity in 2005. In the footnote of its report, the ISOO suggested that the loss of this information was inconsequential, because these entities "historically have not reported quantitatively significant data."
However, Aftergood argued that because the annual report is a statistical breakdown of information processed, the quantitative data merely reflects the volume, not the individual public-interest value, of the secrets withheld by the government.
The most recent report shows that decisions to classify information have declined by about 9 percent since 2004, and the volume of newly declassified information has risen slightly. But watchdogs say the government is still amassing secrets at a disturbing rate: total classification activity was over 60 percent higher in 2005 than in 2001. Overall, agencies reported 14.2 million classification decisions last year.
Some question whether Cheney has wielded his power over secret government information to smear opponents.
Though Cheney’s obfuscation of his classification activity has been ongoing since 2003, the explosion of the Valerie Plame leak scandal, which centers on the suspected retaliatory leak of a CIA agent’s identity by the White House, has invited fresh scrutiny of the administration’s political opacity. Some question whether Cheney has wielded his power over secret government information to smear opponents.
In a February interview with Fox News, asked whether he had ever exercised declassification powers, Cheney replied, "I've certainly advocated declassification and participated in declassification decisions," though he refused to elaborate on the nature of those decisions.
Aftergood said that the ISOO could try to compel Cheney to comply with the executive order through enforcement mechanisms. These could include sanctions, which under the ISOO’s mandate might entail "termination of classification authority" or "denial of access to classified information" – or officially requesting an advisory ruling from the attorney general to clarify the vice president’s obligations.
Since receiving the letter, Leonard of the ISOO told TNS that he is "currently pursuing the matter." Noting the novelty of Cheney’s defense, he added, "I am not aware of any other entity claiming any such ‘exemption.’"
Jennifer Gore, communications director for the watchdog group Project on Government Oversight (POGO), pointed to a precedent for public-interest advocates bringing legal challenges to curb executive secrecy. Referring to the Watergate scandal, which also involved a court battle over the White House’s refusal to disclose incriminating documents, she said, "In the past, when members of the executive branch have voiced privilege as a reason not to turn something over, then it’s time to go to the courts."
To counterbalance the expansion of secrecy under the current administration, POGO is also advocating the Executive Branch Reform Act of 2006. The bill, introduced by Representatives Tom Davis (R-Virginia) and Henry Waxman (D-California), targets new, vaguely defined categories that build on the regular classification system, mainly the "sensitive but unclassified" label that has enabled agencies to limit public access to counterterrorism-related information.
Aftergood said that systemic problems in the classification system undermine the public value of the ISOO’s annual report, with or without full compliance from agencies. To move toward genuine transparency, he said, the ISOO’s tracking should encompass more aggressive, in-depth reviews of classified materials to monitor whether federal operatives are overusing or abusing their privilege.
"What’s really missing is a sense of the quality of the classification activity," Aftergood said. "You could tell me how many things you classify, but that doesn’t give me any indication of whether you exercised good judgment or not."
http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/3261
Zarqawi was tring to overthrow monarchies. When did that become a bad thing? When Bush was coronated or when his extended family began to include the Saudi Royal family?
ReplyDeletePlease watch my show, The Situation, on MSNBC. Nobody else will.
ReplyDeletePlease watch my show on MSNBC. My numbers are as bad as Tucker's.
ReplyDeleteIntelligence officials identified al-Iraqi with the help of an insider in al-Zarqawi’s network and began tracking his movements, waiting for him to meet with his boss, Caldwell said.
ReplyDeleteNo torture. Just his own people wanted him gone.
Kind of like the American people want Bush and the GOP gone.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThe Major said...
Well, we got Zarqawi didn't we.
I'm still not convinced this "major nuisance" isn't a piss poor attempt at parody, but he is right about one thing. It was one of his own men who tipped us off, but he wasn't tortured. He wasn't even captured. It was one of the newer Iraqi adherents who had recently joined Zarqawi, (previously his force had mostly been comprised of foreign fighters and outsiders) who decided it was time to take over from Zarqawi the Jordanian. He just dropped a dime on him.
And don't forget about the 25 million dollar reward. Haven't heard yet whether whoever turned him in will or has collected it or not.
"Why do we need to pretend that it was better in the days that blacks were slaves and the indians were being scalped, just to resist Bush's abuses?"
ReplyDeleteNo one is pretending that it was better in the days of the slaves and Indian displacements, and that's an insulting thing for you to say I'm suggesting.
The point was that despite those atrocious violations of the "all men created equal" sentiments of the founding documents people still adhered to those documents. They were still legally and spiritually binding. But now that prinicple is being defined away - according to the Yoo doctrine, the Constitution does not protect people equally under tha law.
"Zarqawi was tring to overthrow monarchies. When did that become a bad thing?"
ReplyDeleteSigh. Let's not go from one extreme to another. The insurgents are not heroes.
P J Evans said...
ReplyDeleteMy first thought on seeing the headline in the LA Times the other morning was that that change would certainly make everyone in the command chain eligible for war crimes trials, right up to (and most definitely including) Bush and Cheney.
The entire command line, yes, up to and especially including Li'l Butch and Big Dick, (but not excepting all the other little Eichmann's populating this barbaric administration), are already all eligible to be tried for war crimes, under the Nuremburg standard, which we helped create.
Our threatening of war, followed by the planning and executing of our wars of aggression against Afghanistan and Iraq, were war crimes, and they have only been compounded by the brutality which has flowed from those initial crimes: the killings of innocent Iraqis, the abuse and torture of prisoners at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere, (of which we have seen photos of only the least egregious horrors), the destruction of the physical infrastructure of the country, the theft of billions of dollars in reconstruction money, the poisoning of the environment through our use of depleted uranium shells...these all are, variously, crimes, war crimes and crimes against humanity.
See Consortium News' excellent article of June 06 on this very topic:
http://www.consortiumnews.com/
2006/060506a.html
So you are saying that a society that murders, buy and sells half it's population but pretends to have high ideals is superior to one where nobody (within the state at least) gets bought, sold or killed but where it doesn't pretend any more to have those high ideals?
ReplyDeleteNo,that is not what I'm saying, and if you didn't have an ideological dunce hat on, you wouldn't have the nerve to tell me I prefer the slavery of the past to the conditions of today.
It just seems to me that objectively modern America lives up to the values you subscribe to much more than America of 100 or 200 years ago. I don't like Bush but I'll take him over slavery and scalping any day.
No shit, David. What part of "I'm not suggesting that" can you not get through that thick skull of yours? I made the point explicitly, and you ignored it, again.
One more time: during slavery, Constitution meant rule of law and human rights. Slave owners violated rule of law and human rights, slave owners thus violating Constitution.
During Yoo doctrine, Constitution means whatever President says it means. So there is nothing that it is unConstitutional.
Or put another way:
ReplyDeleteDuring slavery, Douglass says, "hey, you're hypocrites, you're acting unconstitutionally."
During Yoo Doctrine, Douglas unable to say, "hey, you're hypocrites, you're acting unconstitutionally" because there rule of law no longer exists.
HG said, "Unlike the other provisions where administration lawyers have sought to argue for the right to treat people cruely and inhumanely on technical grounds, there is no legal argument to be made for this."
ReplyDeleteNot only is there a legal "argument" for it, but it's already been accepted by at least one Supreme Court Justice, and could become the Law of the Land this summer, possibly within days.
This is huge, but it hasn't gotten a whole lot of attention.
Gris Lobo said...
ReplyDeleteDon't forget about the 25 million dollar reward. Haven't heard yet whether whoever turned him in will or has collected it or not.
June 8, 2006, 1:53PM
$25 million bounty will be honored, Iraqi leader says
Associated Press
Iraqi Prime Minister Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said today that the $25 million bounty on Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's head will be honored.
"If Jose Padilla lives in a police state, then so do you."
ReplyDeleteThis won't be much of a deterrent to people who think living in a police state would be a good thing.
Iraqi Prime Minister Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said today that the $25 million bounty on Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's head will be honored.
ReplyDeleteExcellent! Let's give "terrists" or insurgents 25 million! Because that's what we will be doing. That money will end up killing lots more people than Zarqawi everv did. We have blind, incompetent morons and idiots at the wheel.
Good post, HG.
ReplyDeleteDavid Byron:
Do you really not understand the difference between a country that violates its principles and a country that defines its principles away so as to excuse the violation? You don't have to compare our current situation to how things were in 1850. How about comparing it to the way things were in 2000.
If a country that officially denounces torture is caught engaging in it, that's bad. It's hypocritical. But it's infinitely worse when a country changes its rules so as to make torture legal. The latter case degrades core civic and moral princples and threatens their continued vitality.
shooter242 makes his bid for Minister of Propaganda:
ReplyDeleteHere's something to consider. This war has been fought with more transparency than any in our history.
ROFLMAO. Jon Stewart has made some really great clips of maladministration honchos and flacks saying ad nauseam "I cannot confirm or deny...." Then there's the "state secrets" motions, the refusal to turn over documents, the refusal to seek court warrants, and now Cheney's insistence that his office doesn't even have to report on classifications.
It is in fact the most humane and legally bound war ever fought in history.
Patent nonsense on the face of it. Aggressive war, lack of U.N. sanction, based on lies, etc.... Then there's white phosphorus, napalm, cluster bombs, etc....
* We have one pereson denied Habeus Corpus who is actually famous for it.
"If it wasn't for the honor of the thing, I'd just as soon not have been blacklisted."
-- Lee Hays of the Weavers.
* Rendition is a Clinton program, and presumably reduced from former levels.
* Torture has actually been defined. How does that definition compare to torture during Vietnam?
* Current electronic wiretap and internet procedures are more restrictive than during Clinton and Carnivore.
The ol' tu quoque defence, eh? Sans evidence (and in some cases, simply outright false) as well.
* War resolutions were actually passed as opposed to Clinton's bombing of Iraq and Bosnia.
Based on lies. But I wasn't that fond of Clinton's bombing of Iraq. As for Bosnia, they went in as peacekeepers, not to invade and occupy the country, and they did it with NATO backing.
* The Armed forces are the actual originators of the stories Abu Ghraib and other incidents via investigations.
Since when did Sy Hersh join the Army?
Compared to the other major wars in the twentieth century, this one is as sanitized as war can get. Now, this is not to say war isn't brutal, it's merely a measure of ignorance on the part of writers that have no idea what war can be. Whatever imagined horror envisioned about our current situation is described, we can be certain it is nowhere near as horrible as in days gone by.
Says a Fighting 101st Keyboarder. Yes, war is hell. Which is why it ought to be a last resort, and not an election-year political ploy. But, that said, why would you advocate making it even more lawless?
This is why I won't get upset over the outrage du jour. No matter what progress is made, no matter what positive developments might occur, the "Mighty Wurlitzer" of the left will play a dirge. Fine.
Ummm, the "Mighty Wurlitzer" is a tool of the right. And you're part of it, Shooter.
We on the right will continue to point out that some aspects of life that are better than ever, and you folks can continue to cry in your coffee.
Sad for Shooter here, most people in the United States seem to be tending towards the opinion that things just aren't "better than ever" (at least those not already dead in Dubya's "war for a lie", Katrina, the 9/11 attacks, etc....
Cheers,
Fantastic post my friend. A plethora of knowledge before me! Thank you.
ReplyDeletecdj,
Nice point on the electorate...
Michael,
"News flash:
Jack Bauer is a fictional character on a TV show.
"24" is not a documentary. It is a television drama.
Please tell me you're a parody troll."
Ha! Well said! Parody troll...had me rolling...
But to the administration and it's apologists, it isn't torture if we do it because Americans don't torture. It may look like torture, sound like torture, and in fact be torture, but if the acts are perpetrated by US citizens/soldiers at the behest of the US government it is not considered torture because Americans don't torture.
ReplyDeleteDavid Byron wrote:
ReplyDeleteThe problem is you want to try and pretend that American values were this incredible perfect thing since day 1. The reality of course is that America has become more civilized as time went on just like any other country. No better than any other country. The reality is that slavery and scalping were compatible with their values and not ours because they were barbarians compared to us.
Actually, I don't think that. I don't think HG thinks that either. In fact, if you reread either of our posts, you'll see that they both say pretty much the exact opposite.
Personally, I don't think "the idea of America" that I referred to really took hold until sometime in the 20th century. Before then, America was a pretty backward place, and though it had great principles on paper, it failed miserably in living up to them (slavery, manifest destiny, etc.). But in the 20th century, America, though far from living up fully to its self-proclaimed ideals, came a lot closer to them. And that didn't go unnoticed. Whether deserved or not, America did become associated with certain ideas (freedom of speech, freedom of religion, rule of law, human rights, etc.).
And while you seem to want to talk about 1850s America, you refuse to look at the issue in terms of the comparison between American in 2000 and America in 2006 (which is relevant comparison).
In what sense are you repeatedly trying to claim Bush is worse than what happened back then?
ReplyDeleteI'm not. What is this, the third time I've said that now. Would it help if I just typed it over a couple hundred times? No it woudn't, because you can't get past your operating prinicple that everyone here doesn't recognize that America is a flawed nation that has done terrible things.
Look, I've read Zinn and what not. I know all the things that you know that America has done wrong that are wrong. I condemn those things, too.
But that's not the point, a point you're unable to acknoweldge because it gets in the way of your single minded absolute need to make sure everyone knows America has done bad things.
This leads you to say things that are incoherent, as you'll acknoweldge a point if it serves your purpose, but dismiss it if doesn't.
Take for example, Frederick Douglass. First, you trivialized the significance of his comments. Comments I said were meant to remind a nation that slavery violated the American ideal of "all men creted equal" and what not.
Now, you say that Americans have moved closer to that ideal. Can you see the disconnect? Why did they progress towards that ideal? What was is that spurred them foward? What drives humans to greater levels of toleration? Magic? Elves?
I'm not going to answer your question. Because I've already answered it. Until you set aside your false assumption that everyone here is blinded by a nationalistic love of the nation then there can be no meaningful communcitation with you.