Observing and commenting on the behavior of Arlen Specter is one of the most unpleasant obligations a person can have, but for anyone following the NSA eavesdropping scandal specifically, and the Bush administration's abuses of executive power generally, it is a necessary evil. The principal reason that the Bush administration has been able to impose its radical theories of lawbreaking on the country is because Congress, with an unseemly eagerness, has permitted itself to be humiliated over and over by an administration which does not hide its contempt for the notion that Congress has any role to play in limiting and checking the executive branch. And few people have more vividly illustrated that institutional debasement than Arlen Specter, who, along with Pat Roberts, has done more than anyone else to ensure that Congress completely relinquishes its constitutional powers to the President.
Congressional abdication is so uniquely damaging because the Founders assumed that Congress would naturally and instinctively resist encroachments by the executive, and the resulting institutional tension -- the inevitable struggle for power between the branches -- is what would preserve governmental balance and prevent true abuses of power. But for the last five years, Congress has done the opposite of what the Founders envisioned. They have meekly submitted to the almost total elimination of their role in our Government and have quietly accepted consolidation of their powers in the President.
If the Congress is unmoved by their constitutional responsibilities, then at least basic human dignity ought to compel them to object to the administration's contempt for the laws they pass. After all, the laws which the administration claims it can ignore and has been breaking are their laws. The Senate passed FISA by a vote of 95-1, and the McCain torture ban by a vote of 90-9, and it is those laws which the President is proclaiming he will simply ignore. And yet not only have they not objected, they have endorsed and even celebrated the President's claimed power to ignore the laws passed by Congress. And that failure, more than anything else, is what has brought us to the real constitutional crisis we face as a result of having a President who claims the power to operate outside of, and above, the law.
A bill proposed yesterday by Arlen Specter to resolve the NSA scandal -- literally his fifth or sixth proposed bill on this subject in the last few months -- would drag the Congress to a new low of debasement. According to The Washington Post, Specter has introduced a bill "that would give President Bush the option of seeking a warrant from a special court for an electronic surveillance program such as the one being conducted by the National Security Agency." This proposal is the very opposite of everything Specter has saying for the last several months:
Specter's approach modifies his earlier position that the NSA eavesdropping program, which targets international telephone calls and e-mails in which one party is suspected of links to terrorists, must be subject to supervision by the secret court set up under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).
A law which makes it "an option" -- rather than a requirement -- for the Government to obtain a warrant before eavesdropping is about as meaningless of a law as can be imagined.
But that complete change of heart by Specter is not even nearly the most corrupt part of his proposed bill. For pure corruption and constitutional abdication, nothing could match this:
Another part of the Specter bill would grant blanket amnesty to anyone who authorized warrantless surveillance under presidential authority, a provision that seems to ensure that no one would be held criminally liable if the current program is found illegal under present law.
The idea that the President's allies in Congress would enact legislation which expressly shields government officials, including the President, from criminal liability for past lawbreaking is so reprehensible that it is difficult to describe. To my knowledge, none of the other proposed bills -- including those from the most loyal Bush followers in the Senate -- contained this protective provision. And without knowing anywhere near as much as I would need to know in order to form a definitive opinion, the legality of this provision seems questionable at best. It's really the equivalent of a pardon, a power which the Constitutional preserves for the President. Can Congress act as a court and simply exonerate citizens from criminal conduct?
The sole provision of this rancid bill which seems to have any value or purpose is this one: one which "would consolidate the 29 cases that have been filed in various federal district courts challenging the legality of the NSA program and give jurisdiction over them to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, which was established by FISA. Any decision of that court would be subject to Supreme Court review and otherwise would be binding on all other courts." While a judicial ruling on the legality of the administration's conduct would be nice and all, it is a somewhat empty gesture if those who broke the law are first immunized from liability for their misconduct.
What makes this proposed amnesty so particularly indefensible is that Specter himself has spent the last two months loudly complaining about the fact that he -- along with the rest of the country -- has been denied any information about how this illegal, secret eavesdropping has been conducted. Has that power been abused? Has it been exercised for political, rather than national security, reasons? Before one even considers shielding those responsible for this lawbreaking from liability, wouldn't one have to at least know the answer to those questions?
Excess attention on Specter's role in all of this should be avoided. As easy -- and as justifiable -- as it is to express contempt for Specter's inevitable, craven submission to the dictates of the Bush administration, it is also indisputably true that no Senator other than Russ Feingold has done more than Specter to keep the issues of the president's lawbreaking in the news and to prevent a quick sweeping under the rug by the administration of this scandal. Specter's constant complaints have at least kept reporters talking about these issues. If one wants to really attack Specter, one should first answer this question -- where are all the great, heroic Senate Democrats who are standing up to the administration on these issues in a way that Specter isn't? They don't exist. While Specter does nothing more than make some noise, at least he has been doing that.
And while Specter always falls obediently into line with the administration in the end, most Senators, of both parties, begin from that position, particularly with regard to matters of national security and executive power. Specter is the most vivid illustration of Congressional debasement, but he is hardly the only example. Anyone with doubts about that should go and review how the Democrats reacted to Sen. Feingold's introduction of an extremely mild resolution to simply censure the President for breaking the law.
Specter receives substantial criticism because of the flamboyant way in which he engages in what can only be described as sado-masochistic rituals with the administration. He pretends to exercise independence only to get beaten into extreme submission, and then returns eagerly for more. It is as unpleasant to watch as it is damaging to our country. But Specter's unique psychological dramas should not obscure the fact that it is the entire Congress which has failed in its responsibilities to take a stand against this President's lawbreaking and abuses, and there is plenty of blame to go around in both parties. The reason the President has been allowed to exert precisely the type of unrestrained power which the Founders sought, first and foremost, to avoid, is because the Congress has allowed him to.
The Post article suggests that the Specter bill is likely to attract the support of the President's loyalists in the Senate such as John Kyl, as well as the administration itself. Will any Democrats other than Russ Feingold object to the effort by the Senate to shield the President and his administration from liability for past lawbreaking? Will the media discuss in any meaningful way the rather extraordinary development of the Senate literally placing the President above the law by declaring that he cannot be punished for his patently illegal acts against Americans? We are at the point we're at because the Congress and the media have been so eager to allow the President free reign to do what he wants. This new Specter bill drags the country to a still new level of lawlessness. We will soon see if there are any limits to the willingness of Congress and the media to tolerate and endorse transparent attacks on our system of government.
It will be interesting to see how this is covered in the media.
ReplyDeleteSpecter has backed down so many times that I’m beginning to suspect that his letter to Cheney was planned to cover up what he’s really doing.
Did I read that right, "ANYONE who authorizes under Presidential authority..."? Is that indicating ANY president, or is it inclusive of Cheney et al?
ReplyDeleteDid I read that right, "ANYONE who authorizes under Presidential authority..."? Is that indicating ANY president, or is it inclusive of Cheney et al?
ReplyDeleteSince Bush himself has admitted that he ordered the warrantless eavesdropping program, anyone who ordered or was involved with warrantless eavesdropping was, by deifnition, acting under presidential authority. That means that it exempts anyone and everyone. It's also the case that if the President ordered warrantlesse eavesdropping for political purposes, that, too, would receive exemption from criminal liability.
I haven't yet found the actual text of the Specter bill, and am relying on the Post article. If anyone has or finds the Specter bill, please post a link here or e-mail me.
Have you considered that Specter is just playing his cards? He has power over Bush on this issue; he needs pork for his home state; and when Bush agrees to give it to him, he shuts up.
ReplyDeleteA law which makes it "an option" -- rather than a requirement -- for the Government to obtain a warrant before eavesdropping is about as meaningless of a law as can be imagined.
ReplyDeleteSince the Bush administration now considers all laws 'optional' for them, I guess Specter has decided to make it official. If I didn't know better I might think this was a case of legislative sarcasm.
Excuse me, the correct headline would read
ReplyDelete"Specter seeks to "pardon" the President for past lawbreaking."
The Post article says that this is the by-product of a compromise between the President's Senate allies, the administration and Specter. Therefore, it is obviously not just Specter doing this. He is just the vessel being used to promote this legislative amnesty.
That of course presumes the guilt of the President. Didn't some nitwit here say the left presumes innocence until proven guilty? How wrong is that?
If the administration and its allies didn't think there was a substantial chance that they would be convicted in a court of law of criminal behavior, it seems unlikely that they would favor the inclusion of this amnesty provision in this bill.
Nobody is suggesting that the President should be presumed guilty - i.e. imprisoned without a trial (the way that he does to U.S. citizens). Instead, like all other citizens, he should be subject to criminal prosecution if he broke the law. This bill prevents that, which is why it is so pernicious.
"I would love to see the President be given his day in court. [...] Why are you nitwits so determined to prevent that from ever happening?"
ReplyDeleteMichael,
I don't see anything wrong with Congress recognizing the President's constitutional authority.
It seems some in Congress may be questioning FISA's ability to survive a Supreme Court challenge, and for good reason.
What if it's not about granting the President "amnesty", but is instead more closely related to Congress itself hoping to avoid a lengthy constitutional showdown?
Imagine, if you will, a world where terrorists are history, Iraq is a self governing democracy, and the Supreme Court strikes FISA down as unconstitutional...
I did not vote for Nader either time (and cannot conceive of throwing away my vote in a future election), but must admit that his position gains great weight whenever the Senate is in session. Perhaps we do need an opposition party after all.
ReplyDelete"...the Founders assumed that Congress would naturally and instinctively resist encroachments by the executive, and the resulting institutional tension -- the inevitable struggle for power between the branches -- is what would preserve governmental balance and prevent true abuses of power."
ReplyDeleteThe Founders opposed the formation of political parties. If the Senate was full of independents, I'd bet there would be a little more oversight.
Specter's bill:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:S.2453:
The Fly said: Imagine, if you will, a world where terrorists are history, Iraq is a self governing democracy, and the Supreme Court strikes FISA down as unconstitutional...
ReplyDeleteAnd maybe pigs will fly, lollypop trees will bloom, the weather will always be agreeable, la la la.
Come back to reality Mr./Ms. Fly
Glenn,
ReplyDeleteThis
where are all the great, heroic Senate Democrats who are standing up to the administration on these issues in a way that Specter isn't?
isn't fair. Leahy has spoken out in very strong terms. I don't know whether anyone else has, but he certainly has. Since I'm limited to what is reported, there may be other people who have spoken out as strongly.
Leahy has spoken out in very strong terms. I don't know whether anyone else has, but he certainly has.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Leahy has made some noise from time to time, like Specter. But his actions have been weak and inconsistent. He refused to support Feingold's cenusre resolution and also voted to confirm the architect and primary defender of the NSA program - Gen. Hayden - as CIA director.
I would hardly say that Pat Leahy has been some sort of crusader against Presidential lawbreaking. If he were, he would at least be willing to support a censure of the President, wouldn't he?
Well, it is true that there has been no action, outside of Feingold's that comes close to actually asserting the power of the legislative branch.
ReplyDeleteHope you have a good time in Vegas, and that YKos turns out to be a tipping point.
For a brief description of the Roman emperors' being solutus legibus (released from the laws), see http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Lex_Regia.html
ReplyDeleteBrian Boru
Personally, some os Spectre's comments and attitude seem like this is more of a ego issue (i.e. being slighted) than a constitutional/legal one.
ReplyDeleteGlenn:
ReplyDeleteI am a bit puzzled as to your opposition to the Specter Bill, at at least in the way it is described by the WP.
Let us start with the screaming title to your blog...
"A new low -- the Senate seeks to "pardon" the President for past lawbreaking"
The WP does not mention anything about "pardoning the President" for anything. Rather, the report states:
Another part of the Specter bill would grant blanket amnesty to anyone who authorized warrantless surveillance under presidential authority, a provision that seems to ensure that no one would be held criminally liable if the current program is found illegal under present law.
Unless you think that the President can give himself authority, this would appear to protect those acting under Presidential orders, not the President himself. This is as it should be. If you think Mr. Bush broke some law, move to impeach him.
Next, you have claimed repeatedly that you do not oppose listening in on al Qaeda like the Canadians and others did to bust several al Qaeda cells around the world just recently. Rather, you claim to merely oppose spying a hypothetical warrantless spying on Americans without any relationship to al Qeada.
If this is so, what could you possible oppose about the centerpiece of the Specter bill as described by the WP?
The new proposal specifies that it cannot "be construed to limit the constitutional authority of the President to gather foreign intelligence information or monitor the activities and communications of any person reasonably believed to be associated with a foreign enemy of the United States."
Bush has cited his constitutional authority as president as justification for undertaking the warrantless NSA surveillance. The White House and Vice President Cheney have said up to now that no additional legislation is necessary to bring the program within the law.
This provision only excuses the President from the requirements of FISA to the extent of his constitutional authority. How can you oppose that?
My only quibble with the language is that it narrows the current case law determining the scope of the President's Article II intelligence gathering power from the agents of any foreign group to only agents of "foreign enemies." We also spy on our foreign friends when necessary, as they do to us.
However, once this is corrected, FISA would then comply with the Constitution.
The chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee has proposed legislation that would give President Bush the option of seeking a warrant from a special court for an electronic surveillance program such as the one being conducted by the National Security Agency.
I have no idea what this means without seeing the text of the bill. The reporter may simply be referring to the fact that the President is not required to seek FISA warrants to conduct Article intelligence gathering, but may do so at his discretion.
If you come across a link to the actual bill, I and others here would like to see it.
You ask: "Will the media discuss in any meaningful way the rather extraordinary development of the Senate literally placing the President above the law by declaring that he cannot be punished for his patently illegal acts against Americans?"
ReplyDeleteIn a constitutional democracy, there would be no need to discuss such a proposal because it could only come from an ineffectual clown. Since we have an ineffectual clown who is actually exercising power (against his branch on behalf of the executive) in a leadership role, we must suffer the indignity of taking him seriously.
The constitutional crisis precipitated by the initial "election" of George W. Bush and exacerbated by every twist and turn of his administation is a story that the press has been determined to miss. Since it requires nothing more than a high-school education to notice how the system described in civics classes has been abused and distorted, there is no defense for this lack of enterprise.
Nevertheless, accepting the press with its limitations, this is a story that could still get some ink. Specter has stood up and bent over repeatedly. We witness his indignation and then, for no observable reason, he backs down. It has just happened again. He was working toward an already weak proposal and now, in response to no public argument against it, he has replaced it with comprehensive abdication. What changed his mind? We're not privy the the whole conversation that he has been having with the boys who want to make George a king. Who wrote this latest proposal to come out under Specter's name?
If reporters can't get excited about the constitutional disaster taking place under their noses, maybe they can get excited about what's going on behind the curtain: What does the administration have on Specter? How do they get him to shame himself, Congress, and the Constitution time after time? What kind of sadomasochistic pantomime is this?
If the press won't treat the Specter spectacle as news, maybe there's hope that they will wake up and treat it as gossip.
This is soooooooo pre-9/11. This isn't just your everyday WWII; these people are serious ... and dark-skinned.
ReplyDeleteIt's a whole new game now. The rule of law applies as always, except when the preznit is acting in the security interests of the country, and we'll all die if he's not given unfettered freedom to do whatever he thinks is necessary (just as he did at Booker elementary school, and as he did during Katrina) to keep us safe and dry (undergarments in particular). And because that is the new law, the "rule of law" stays intact and robust as ever....
Dontcha see?
Cheers,
Instead of Mitchell, Haldeman and Ehrlichmen conducting a coverup of illegal survellance, this president's co-conspirators in the coverup appears to include a majority of the Congress. And the Woodwards & Bernsteins today use their deep throats just to suck it all in, in gulp after gulp.
ReplyDeleteshooter242:
ReplyDeleteThat of course presumes the guilt of the President. Didn't some nitwit here say the left presumes innocence until proven guilty? How wrong is that?
Juries decide matters of fact. When the facts are not in dispute, and it's a matter of law, we are free to make our own decisions.
Cheers,
Specter folding is less of a surprise to me than this thing with the Dems. Here we are in glorious 2006 when the "dems" are going to "take back..." something and we hear nary a peep outside fo Feingold land. Where's the opposition? Why haven't the Dems been launching a platform this year? Man, I hope they read 'Crashing the Gates.'
ReplyDeleteIf they keep coatsing like this and not bother to fight...anything...Will they really take back anything save another stinging and embarassing loss?
I feel like we the people are standing around in a circle while a full blown gang rape is happening and we are all pretending to not notice, or say things like, "It's fine, it'll be alright. It's for the good of the country. We must be safe from Terrah."
Lordy, I am so fatigued with the state of things, the Bush Co. The never ending inaction. I keep fantasizing about this magical day when a real opposition arises and a new voice is heard and the truth comes out and America begins healing itself.
Can you imagine that anymore? Getting back to the America we used to be?
How much you want to bet that if Specter's proposed legislation were to become law, it would be immediately repealed the instant a Democrat became president.
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting to read the attempt at constitutional justification in Specter's first attempt at legislation:
ReplyDelete(7) The Constitution provides Congress with broad powers of oversight over national security and foreign policy, under article I, section 8 of the Constitution of the United States, which confers on Congress numerous powers, including the powers--
(A) `To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water';
(B) `To raise and support Armies';
(C) `To provide and maintain a Navy';
(D) `To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces';
(E) `To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions'; and
(F) `To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States'.
(8) It is in our Nation's best interest for Congress to use its oversight power to establish a system to ensure that electronic surveillance programs do not infringe on the constitutional rights of Americans, while at the same time making sure that the President has all the powers and means necessary to detect and track our enemies
Specter rattled off the list of the handful of express powers Congress has over the military, but does not cite a single one as authority for FISA. This is unsurprising since there are none which refer to directing or conducting intelligence gathering.
Rather, Specter cited to Congress' general power of oversight over the executive branch as the grounds for requiring the President to come to the judiciary for permission to conduct his Article II intelligence gathering.
Two glaring problems here...
First, the Constitution grants Congress and not the Judiciary oversight power over the Executive. Congress may not delegate its Constitutional powers to the judiciary.
Assuming arguendo that the FISA court could exercise Congress' oversight power, all that allows the FISA court to do is call Administration officials in to notify Congress what they are doing. Oversight does not require seeking permission from Congress or the FISA court to conduct Article II intelligence gathering.
Therefore, it becomes painfully apparent why Specter's latest bill makes the obvious concession that FISA may not infringe upon the President's Article II constitutional powers.
It's worth noting that all this cowardice and abdication of Congressional responsibility is being done in service of a president who is hovering around a 33% approval rating and will be out of office in two years!
ReplyDeleteJust what the hell does the administration have on these guys, when there's no apparent reason for their spineless behavior?
-L-
Quit putting your hopes in the Impotent dems. Thier just as pathetic as the repubs. the only real hope is that the people replace many on both sides in elections, if we have elections or the voting is not completely corrupted by then.
ReplyDeleteThe people hold some responsibility in this. If half or three quarters of the country don't care about what is going on, (they may care more about thier materialistic lives) then they deserve what happens to that which they take for granted.
And where are the so-called conservative constituecies of these out-of-control republicans? Why are they not complaining? I say, conservatism is dead, if it was ever alive to begin with.
Yeah, Alex you're right about putting any hope into the Dems. I think I am just waxing fantastical about a magic opposition that is of the people and for the people...You know, all that...
ReplyDelete*sigh*
I'm not surprised. I wondered how Specter was going to cave this time.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone asked him how he feels about being a tit on a bull?
Just what the hell does the administration have on these guys, when there's no apparent reason for their spineless behavior?
ReplyDeleteHas it ever occurred to any of you that the President has all the law on his side and that is why Congress on both sides of the aisle has backed down repeatedly?
If you have read Glenn's book as I have you will notice that he...
Avoids discussing the President's Article II powers, avoids discussing the dozens of cases confirming that the President is the sole organ of foreign policy,
Avoids discussing the half dozen cases holding that the President has the Article II power to conduct warrantless intelligence gathering against foreign groups and their agents,
Avoids identifying Congress' Article I authority to direct or conduct intelligence gathering or limit the President from doing the same which would justify applying Youngstown, and
Avoids even citing to the FISA provisions which supposedly apply to the NSA Program as it leaked and not how it actually exists.
Indeed, for all the accusations of law breaking in the book, Glenn only discusses actual cases and statutes in a tiny fraction of the tract.
That is because there is no law to back up the baseless charges of lawbreaking and Congress knows this.
Bart, the problem is that intelligence is mentioned nowhere in the Constitution. The President's Article II authority derives from equally elliptical language:
ReplyDeleteThe President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States...
Are you asserting that that unambiguously gives the President plenary powers, while dismissing the language of Article I?
I also don't see how the above can magically overcome the clear language of the Fourth Amendment:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
That last is where the courts get involved, of course.
Looks like Dick yanked Arlen's chain mighty hard this time. Not only got him in line, but got him to sit up and shake as well.
ReplyDeleteArlen Specter, Republican bichon frise: annoying, incessant bark, but no bite.
ReplyDeleteIf the Post story is accurate, then even the consolidation section of the bill is pretty meaningless. Yes, transfering the cases to the FISA court would take the "state secrets" defense out of play, but the bill itself would effectively moot all the most important legal issues raised by those cases. The program itself would no longer be illegal and the amnesty provision would cover past law breaking. So the only issues left would be the 4th amendment issues, and the FISA court strikes me as likely to find in the Bush administration's favor there.
ReplyDeleteSo all in all, this bill really really sucks (at least if the Post story is accurate).
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteSpecter rattled off the list of the handful of express powers Congress has over the military, but does not cite a single one as authority for FISA. This is unsurprising since there are none which refer to directing or conducting intelligence gathering.
Yeah, and these same laws don't provide authority for 42 USC 1983 either. Another clearly unconstitutional law inasmusch as it unduly restricts the preznit from doing what he thinks is proper to protect nash'nul s'kurity.....
I'd note also that just a quick search produces thousands of hits for other laws that are similarly unconstitush'nul.
Lawdy, lawdy, Congress has really stepped in it this time....
Then there's this "straw man" of the troll HWSNBN here: "refer to directing or conducting intelligence gathering." His second favourite "straw man" after "DemocRATS don't want the administration to spy on All-Keeda!"....
HWSNBN will ignore these points, though, and you'll seem his favourite "straw men" repeated time and time again in subsequent threads.
Cheers,
There are 3 bills regarding intelligence, and it doesn't appear that any of them reflect the Washington Post article.
ReplyDeleteS.2453,
S.2455,
S.3001
Just a thought...
ReplyDeleteIsn't the NSA under the overall direction of the DoD?
"The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States..."
If not, who then does direct the activities of the NSA?
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteTwo glaring problems here...
First, the Constitution grants Congress and not the Judiciary oversight power over the Executive. Congress may not delegate its Constitutional powers to the judiciary.
Yep, 'tis true, which is why that pesky 42 USC 1983 has to be struck down.....
Cheers,
The Polite Liberal said...
ReplyDeleteBart, the problem is that intelligence is mentioned nowhere in the Constitution. The President's Article II authority derives from equally elliptical language:
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States...
Intelligence gathering is also by definition an executive power and Article II also grants all powers of the Executive on the President.
The language of Article II is not elliptical, it is very broad and general.
Are you asserting that that unambiguously gives the President plenary power, while dismissing the language of Article I?
I am not dismissing anything actually written in the Constitution.
The President has general power over the military and foreign policy while Article I reserves to Congress very specific powers over certain enumerated areas of the military and foreign policy. Article I does not grant Congress either general executive or CiC power as Article II does the President. Therefore, the President has plenary power over all areas of foreign policy and the military which Article I does not expressly reserve to the Congress.
I also don't see how the above can magically overcome the clear language of the Fourth Amendment:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. That last is where the courts get involved, of course.
The 4th Amendment only requires warrants for "unreasonable searches and seizures." The courts who have examined this issue have all universally held that intelligence gathering is not an unreasonable search which requires a warrant. Rather, the courts set up a bright line that warrants become required when the primary objective is to gather criminal evidence rather than intelligence.
PL, none of this is in the least way a radical departure from the past. All presidents have used this Article II power. The only reason this is in the least an issue is that a radical Congress elected in 1974 unconstitutionally attempted to limit a range of Presidential powers through FISA and other actions.
Yes, exactly what DID Cheney say to Spector? I would love to have been a fly on the wall.
ReplyDeleteIt is going to take an outraged horde of citizens converging on the Senate chambers to get the attention of these zombies. What the hell is going on? Is this really America?
Oy. Slap Dick Comedy
ReplyDeleteIt's worth noting that all this cowardice and abdication of Congressional responsibility is being done in service of a president who is hovering around a 33% approval rating and will be out of office in two years!
ReplyDeleteKevin Phillips's 1994 analysis of Congress seems to provide some explanation why Congress seems so inexplicably out of touch with the public.
Theoretically, a member of Congress represents a chunk of Missouri or Connecticut, and these voters alone get his or her mailings, satellite television feeds, and weekend visits: he or she is their representative. But the reality of what the average senator or congressman represents is a tailored slice of interest-group Washington: the party caucus or national committee, some contributors and polictical action committees, and a collection of think tanks and coalitions, associations, corporations, and unions. Grassroots party loyalty being so loose, 75 percent to 85 percent of senators and congressmen can use the right combination of interest-group backing to entrench themselves. to ordinary voters, representative government has become a shell - and behind it, only the influentials are truly represented.
the fly:
ReplyDeleteIsn't the NSA under the overall direction of the DoD?
"The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States..."
If not, who then does direct the activities of the NSA?
NSA is funded by the Pentagon, and the director ("DIRNSA") must be a military officer (albeit the deputy DIRNSA must be a civilian). Yes, the ultimate "CinC" of the NSA is the preznit ... as far as "directing" goes, but that hardly prevents Congress from regulation that specifies how the NSA may behave in performing the actions that the preznit directs. Just as Congress can pas laws that specifiy how law enforcement officers must behave on perfomring their duties, even as their day-to-day tasks are "directed" by the preznit (and his inferiors). This "directing"/"regulating" confabulation is a "straw man" that HWSNBN is pushing, but it's a patently ridiculous "straw man".
Cheers,
the President's Article II constitutional powers.
ReplyDeleteThis magical powers in no way, shape, or form, can abrogate a single inalienable right, SOME of which are listed in the Bill of Rights (the particular enumerated rights in the Bill of Rights are merely those that were repeatedly violated by improper governments before). The President cannot, under any circumstances, violate the 4th Amendment. THAT is the issue with the NSA spying. It isn't about the President collecting intel on FOREIGN enemies, it is about collecting illegal intel on American citizens sans warrant.
Bush can spy on Al Qaeda all he wants. He cannot spy on me without a valid warrant. FISA is intended to do exactly what the courts are supposed to do but in a manner that protects secrets: ensure that American citizens 4th Amendment rights are protected because they are inalienable.
Any talk about the President's "inherent authority in Article II" nonsense is a sideline. The issue, the only issue, is illegal spying on American citizens. Period.
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteThe language of Article II is not elliptical, it is very broad ...
... and not too high. ;-)
Sorry, math reference, HWSNBN probably won't get it.
Cheers,
HWSNBN engages in circulus in demonstrandum:
ReplyDeleteThe 4th Amendment only requires warrants for "unreasonable searches and seizures."
"And because what we're doing is legal, it's reasonable. And because it's reasonable, therefore it's not unconstitutional and therefore it's legal, don't you see?!?!?"
Cheers,
The language of Article II is not elliptical, it is very broad ...
ReplyDeleteYeah, just as "broad" as are the Article I powers. Article II is no more broad and superduperpowerful than Article I. Article II doesn't trump, supercede, or overpower Article I. In fact, it is II instead of I for a reason: the Legislative branch was intended, and IS, the predominant force in government. The President is NOT the premier position. If anything, it is inferior to the Legislative.
The 4th Amendment only requires warrants for "unreasonable searches and seizures."
ReplyDeleteAs usual, the rightwingers carefully parse the entire Amendment rather than reading the entire thing to see the context. We all have the inalienable right to be secure in our persons, effects, etc. That is first. As for "reasonable", that is not for the President to decide. The courts determine reasonableness under the law and Constitution. The President is incapable of making such rulings. First, this particular president is a flaming idiot who wont read something that isn't a comic or a set of sports scores. Second, it is the sole Article III power of the Courts to make the decision of reasonableness.
HWSNBN hungers for the "Plumber" days:
ReplyDelete"The only reason this is in the least an issue is that a radical Congress elected in 1974..." [sic; FISA was passed in 1978]
... got real steamed that the Nixon maladministration had misused and abused the intelligence agencies, the FBI, the IRS, and various other gummint agencies and employees to pursue partisan political hackery and dirty tricks through thorougly illegal (and intrusive) means. So they decided that from then on, somone outside of the fox ought to be watching over the chicken-coop, at least where the rights of U.S. citizens were concerned.
Cheers,
::Higgins' accent from Magnum PI::
ReplyDeleteOh. My. God.
::/end Higgins' accent::
...Assuming arguendo that the FISA court could exercise Congress' oversight power, all that allows the FISA court to do is call Administration officials in to notify Congress what they are doing. Oversight does not require seeking permission from Congress or the FISA court to conduct Article II intelligence gathering....
The gist of this argument (admittedly taken out of context, but that doesn't really bear on the point I am making) is somehow that oversight is "sight" only, and contains no immplication of an authority to correct, limit, prohibit, or conscript behavior that it finds in violation of principle, ethics, mores, or law. This is patently absurd.
This is also the part of the Congress' Article 1 powers that you conveniently interpret to support your argument and ridicule and dismiss all other potential interpretations:
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
The spirit and language of these provisions seems to me to be that the President's powers as Commander in Chief are in no way meant to be plenary or absolute, and are subject to oversight, correction, and legal sanction.
Later on, you make the convenient statement:
...none of this is in the least way a radical departure from the past. All presidents have used this Article II power. The only reason this is in the least an issue is that a radical Congress elected in 1974 unconstitutionally attempted to limit a range of Presidential powers through FISA and other actions.
A radical Congress??!! HOW ABOUT A RADICAL GODDAMMN THIEF CROOK LYING BASTARD OF A PRESIDENT WHO ABUSED HIS AUTHORITY AND COMMITTED ANY NUMBER OF WAR AND CIVIL AND CRIMINAL OFFENSES IN THE GODDAMN PROCESS??!!!
This is maybe the most infuriating comment you have made in the time I have been reading this blog, Bart. And that is saying a lot.
Oh, and the 4th Amendment does not require warrants for unreasonable searches and seizures. It prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures, and requires authorities to seek a warrant in order to prevent such. It requires some really sohpisticated sophistry to construe it otherwise.
The Founders never anticipated the modern Republicans.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that most of my points were made by others (probably more clearly and eloquently) while I was carefully editing my comment and hyperventilating.
ReplyDeletenick:
ReplyDeleteOh, and the 4th Amendment does not require warrants for unreasonable searches and seizures. It prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures, and requires authorities to seek a warrant in order to prevent such. It requires some really sohpisticated sophistry to construe it otherwise.
Nah. Just circular reasoning. See my post above on it. The troll HWSNBN didn't think this one up (I doubt he's capable of coming up with an original "argument" of his own, period); the same "logic" has been put forth by maladministration flacks and sycophants of more "intellectual capacity" than HWSNBN; I've seen it elsewhere in amicus briefs....
Cheers,
I don't know why anyone is surprised about the current situation. That Specter ever started in on this issue allowed time for the Republicans to come up with a game plan - some way to retroactively make it okay that laws had been broken. As a side benefit, Specter got a lot of personal attention in the process ("Look at me! See? Some Republicans DO care about laws that Congress has passed"). He even fooled the Democrats into thinking for a little while that he was maybe a nice guy. It was all part of their plan. The problem with Democrats (well, not including the ones in Congress who continue to just sit around allowing everything to be given away) is that they are too trusting. The Republicans have proven time and again that the ONLY thing they care about is obtaining and holding on to power. They stick together, even when it seems as though they are not, and all of their actions are for the purpose of achieving their common end.
ReplyDeleteI don't know why anyone is surprised about the current situation. That Specter ever started in on this issue allowed time for the Republicans to come up with a game plan - some way to try to make it okay, retroactively, that laws had been broken. As a side benefit, Specter got a lot of personal attention in the process ("Look at me! See? Some Republicans DO care about laws that Congress has passed"). He even fooled the Democrats into thinking for a little while that he was maybe a nice guy. It was all part of their plan. The problem with Democrats (well, not including the ones in Congress who continue to just sit around allowing everything to be given away) is that they are too trusting. The Republicans have proven time and again that the ONLY thing they care about is obtaining and holding on to power. They stick together, even when it seems as though they are not, and all of their actions are for the purpose of achieving their common end.
ReplyDeleteHate to say I told you so, but . . .
ReplyDeletePrince Bart bows very low, nose brushing the ground on which his majesty doth tread:
ReplyDelete"Therefore, the President has plenary power over all areas of foreign policy and the military which Article I does not expressly reserve to the Congress."
And here I, not given to Tory persuasions, was thinking the Congress, as the Federal voice of the people, who retain all rights and power not expressly delegated, would merit better consideration from Citizen Bart.
AAAAAHG! I doubt this even gets much media coverage. Unbelievable!
ReplyDeleteI just started your book. Good stuff so far. I'll write my thoughts when I've finished.
instead of I for a reason: the Legislative branch was intended, and IS, the predominant force in government. The President is NOT the premier position. If anything, it is inferior to the Legislative.
ReplyDeleteInherent in the Constitution.
While Congress can impeach Presidents, the President cannot dissolve Congress and call for new elections.
Such power is possessed by several European presidents, and the Monarch in the UK.
One may assume that this omission is purposeful.
They may need to do this so that they have the chimperor to "pardon" them after they steal enough of the midterm elections to continue to cover up the criminality.
ReplyDeleteThey will steal enough elections in 2006 and then immediately distract us from the grand theft by proclaiming to have a MANDATE TO ELIMINATE SOCIAL SECURITY.
This is going to get ugly now - can we quit talking about sphincter providing "oversight" now?
He was part of the cover-up of the coup detat in 1963 and he is part of covering up the crimes after the coup-detat in 2000.
Is anyone really surprised?
anybody care to predict bart's take on this?
ReplyDeleteBart will proclaim:
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Fusce auctor enim eu lacus. Curabitur consequat lacinia arcu. Vestibulum augue mauris, luctus non, posuere sed, consectetuer sit amet, sem. Duis gravida facilisis diam. Mauris id diam. Nullam posuere bibendum sem. Fusce vitae nunc eu nibh pretium placerat. Nulla facilisi. Duis viverra tellus at ligula. Fusce et odio. Vestibulum rhoncus, risus vitae auctor tempor, augue arcu semper leo, vitae feugiat massa tellus a sapien. In hac habitasse platea dictumst. Nam a erat.
Curabitur sem. Nulla mauris urna, dapibus nec, sagittis vel, interdum elementum, sem. Praesent ultrices risus tristique diam. Aliquam erat volutpat. Ut commodo. Quisque interdum malesuada libero. Quisque venenatis porta felis. Fusce porttitor erat sit amet dolor. Nunc congue odio id augue. Quisque vitae dui. Ut vulputate felis ac mauris.
Fusce ut est. Praesent velit neque, scelerisque in, fermentum eget, cursus a, nulla. Vestibulum nibh augue, pellentesque at, viverra sit amet, auctor nec, enim. Duis mattis fermentum enim. Integer arcu metus, imperdiet feugiat, tincidunt id, mattis ut, lectus. Cras quis quam. Donec malesuada semper libero. Maecenas ullamcorper tincidunt nulla. Class aptent taciti sociosqu ad litora torquent per conubia nostra, per inceptos hymenaeos. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Sed dictum, nunc vitae auctor volutpat, nulla sapien euismod nisl, ut tempor nibh massa id orci. Etiam lacus nibh, tincidunt id, venenatis ut, nonummy ut, lacus. Donec id mi pharetra orci vestibulum molestie.
Morbi eu metus eget orci adipiscing consequat. Morbi pellentesque condimentum eros. Suspendisse potenti. Morbi fringilla, enim sed vestibulum elementum, diam orci egestas est, id elementum eros erat ac est. In hac habitasse platea dictumst. Sed hendrerit ultricies nunc. Donec eget enim vel turpis condimentum pulvinar. Maecenas molestie tincidunt orci. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Etiam pulvinar, urna a ullamcorper auctor, odio turpis sodales lectus, nec euismod sem libero eget erat. Nunc ut ligula id leo malesuada volutpat. Class aptent taciti sociosqu ad litora torquent per conubia nostra, per inceptos hymenaeos. Pellentesque euismod, felis a rutrum malesuada, nisi neque rutrum justo, vel nonummy tortor massa id mauris. Vivamus sed magna. Nulla pellentesque laoreet risus. Suspendisse nec purus. Maecenas quis sem. Duis nec pede. Fusce et mauris.
Vivamus quam risus, gravida eu, mattis in, ultrices ac, ante. Curabitur ut ipsum. Sed mattis, erat non tempor condimentum, lectus diam tempor nunc, gravida vestibulum nulla purus quis felis. Curabitur non lacus vitae sapien tincidunt posuere. Duis gravida mauris. Nullam eu neque euismod pede auctor blandit. Aliquam erat volutpat. In in elit id nunc convallis consequat. Vivamus at augue a pede posuere hendrerit. Etiam diam. Cras gravida risus eu enim. In rhoncus. Phasellus vehicula ornare turpis. In fringilla. Suspendisse tempor dictum ligula. Nullam consequat, ante eu aliquam pulvinar, est ante pharetra risus, ac malesuada sapien mi sodales mi. Sed nibh. Duis mattis sapien a ipsum. Duis eu purus. Proin libero.
Nullam et urna. Phasellus a urna. Pellentesque cursus risus quis mauris. Ut sagittis nunc et felis. Aliquam dictum justo eget ipsum. Vestibulum iaculis, lacus sed tristique imperdiet, justo diam dictum mauris, sed pharetra augue urna eu enim. In laoreet. Proin lacinia semper tellus. Donec diam sapien, ultrices quis, feugiat vel, tempus id, nisi. Aliquam faucibus turpis non eros. Fusce eu dui a purus pellentesque interdum.
Fusce vitae lectus. Mauris at mauris eu turpis placerat bibendum. Phasellus adipiscing. Pellentesque lacinia, est non mattis ornare, lorem leo porttitor augue, nec porta quam lacus imperdiet ante. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; Integer sit amet quam non tellus facilisis sagittis. Proin tristique. Morbi id orci et pede iaculis semper. Vestibulum gravida quam vitae nulla. Aliquam sed urna in nisl blandit congue. Pellentesque faucibus porta urna. Integer lorem purus, pulvinar ut, cursus vel, auctor imperdiet, erat. Nunc risus nibh, posuere eget, condimentum vel, suscipit vitae, dui. Nam sed sapien id sem sollicitudin aliquet. Phasellus volutpat, turpis non sagittis faucibus, erat nulla blandit mi, nec pellentesque nisl turpis a lectus. Duis orci. Nullam leo ante, cursus at, consectetuer at, viverra non, elit.
And some moron will get up on his soapbox and refute the obvious lies and off-topic, copy and paste talking points by adding:
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By having a Senator like Spector perform a pseudo-check, the necessary catalyst (pressure!) is removed, so opponents don't unify and the public doesn't mobilizing.
ReplyDeleteAnd for the most-part, greenwald has gone along with this charade. I am not saying intentionally, but he has still made too big a deal about an obvious con.
Not trying to be critical or snarky, but we do need to have an honest dialog about how this game is played and how various players are being "played."
I really cant understand how you conservatives can be so fearful. If we dont protect our civil liberties we wont have anything left to defend.
ReplyDeleteI get tired of trying to explain to you how we cant go around blindly supporting everything that President George W. Bush does. Its not patriotic.
I just called up Spectre's office and told the nice lady (always be polite to the staffers) that it was a shame that Spectre came out and looked like a whiny little baby and a big coward. Probably won't help but it sure made me feel better.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, Hi
ReplyDeleteJerry Hill here, met you in Gainesville at the Civic Media Center, tall guy with a beard... Hope your tour is going smoothly and that you get lots of media coverage: critical mass. Here's a link to my favorite conspiracy theory [grins] which i posted in a diary on TPM Cafe:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/11/13/4383/9905
i have diaries at kos and mydd, too, but i'm not prolific.
i really enjoyed seeing you live in-person; thanks for what you're doing. Good to see that you had time to blog a bit.
To Bart and other contrarians -
ReplyDeleteRather than try to engage your arguable reasoning and rationales, mainly because they make so little sense, let me instead offer this little poser to you:
If the NSA program under discussion and the actions of the Executive Branch are all above board and legally defensible, then precisely why must this bill include provisions promising amnesty to said parties in the first place?
Once again, I don't expect any serious answers to be offered on this, or any that actually address the original question.
What makes this proposed amnesty so particularly indefensible is that Specter himself has spent the last two months loudly complaining about the fact that he -- along with the rest of the country -- has been denied any information about how this illegal, secret eavesdropping has been conducted.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I am so tired of this meme -- the man that covered the coup-detat in 1963 never had the backbone or integrity to do anything about this.
He just created the distractions and the lie that there was some oversight in the house - this spin is what allowed him to advance the pardon.
Classic propaganda - can't blame anyone from being mislead, but enough is enough.
When are we going to accept that the lying liars are not going to be our saviors on any of this?
I don't know when you liberal folks are going to wake up?!!
ReplyDeleteThis prez and his white house, and increasingly this congress,both parties are becoming enemies of the people!!! The blind worship of the so-called conservative base is bad enough but do you have to follow in thier footsteps? When these parties attack the constitution as they are, they are showing thier contempt of "we the people" and the rule of law.
These parties don't give a shit about you quoting the constitution or the bill of rights. No matter how much you quote, they continue to show thier contempt of all of us. Will the people unite behind common principles enshrined in the constitution or will they remain fractured factions, slaves to political ideologies??
I don't give a shit about conservatism nor liberalism, niether the facist repubs or the relativistic do nothing dems. Quite defending the parties(both)and stand up for America.
I wonder when this nation is going to un-brainwash itself from the bullshit of both these parties???
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteyankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteTo Bart and other contrarians - Rather than try to engage your arguable reasoning and rationales, mainly because they make so little sense, let me instead offer this little poser to you:
If the NSA program under discussion and the actions of the Executive Branch are all above board and legally defensible, then precisely why must this bill include provisions promising amnesty to said parties in the first place?
Ask Mr. Specter. Seriousy. None of his ideas have made any sense to me except as face saving measures for Congress.
I would guess, but do not know, that extending a faux and totally unnecessary amnesty is more face saving for Congress to sidestep the fact that FISA is unconstitutional when applied to intelligence gathering.
No one else in Congress is proposing this.
Specter is one of the most phony, sneaky, and disgusting members of congress.
ReplyDeleteHas it ever occurred to any of you that the President has all the law on his side and that is why Congress on both sides of the aisle has backed down repeatedly?
ReplyDeleteWell, it's been made clear that the President thinks that way. That's the issue with a lot of people - that George Bush has the same level of logic, respect for the Consitution, honesty, and thoughtfulness as a cut-and-paste weblog troll.
Glenn's post talks about possible legislation aiming to grant amnesty, and you post this nonsense? Because, of course, you need legislation to protect people when they have all the law on their side. Could you just find another group of people to annoy, you useless, useless man?
May I ask - why write that letter at all? Has anyone bothered to ask him why he would write what he did, then boast about it, but then turn around and do this? His actions look like those of a raving nutcase at best, and a cynical, hypocritical, maliciously manipulative bastard at worst. If you write that letter, the logical follow-up would be a bill that is about 180 degrees opposite of the one he just offered up. So what is going on here?
ReplyDeleteAl said...
ReplyDeleteBart: Has it ever occurred to any of you that the President has all the law on his side and that is why Congress on both sides of the aisle has backed down repeatedly?
Glenn's post talks about possible legislation aiming to grant amnesty, and you post this nonsense? Because, of course, you need legislation to protect people when they have all the law on their side. Could you just find another group of people to annoy, you useless, useless man?
This is Specter's legislation. The WH agreed to the DeWine bill, which had none of this nonsense in it.
Alex at 5:33pm:
ReplyDeleteRead the archives.
Read the posts that are currently up.
Read Glenn's book, for Pete's sake.
Then, if you want to come back and whine about people not doing anything, at least your whining will be better-informed whining.
Bart says,
ReplyDeleteThe 4th Amendment only requires warrants for "unreasonable searches and seizures."
HAHAHAHAHAHAH
woo! that is HILARIOUS! Can you *really* be that f'ing stupid?
I can see it now, a cop goes to a judge and says, your honor, i have a totally unreasonable search of a person i'd like to make. There is no suspicion of guilt or reason to make the search...(if there was, it would be a reasonable search, get it? reason? reasonable?) can i have the warrant?
What do you think the judge would say?
The fourth amendment, as posted here on this very thread, says that citizens shall have the right to be *free...from unreasonable searches and seizures*. It then goes on to enumerate that a warrant is required in ALL CASES *as a means of ensuring that ALL SEARCHES are REASONABLE.* That is the *point* of the warrant, get it?
come on, i expect better of my ideological opponenets than rank idiocy.
'scuse me, but the Administration pooh-poohed the DeWine bill, saying "it wouldn't pass Constitutional muster." This is diametrically opposed to their current claims of authority, and belies their view that, depending on the issue, the law is either a convenience or an obstacle.
ReplyDeleteGood lord Bart are this naive???
ReplyDelete"Has it ever occurred to any of you that the President has all the law on his side and that is why Congress on both sides of the aisle has backed down repeatedly?"
That is blatant lunacy! Is it impossible for you to see that this is a partisan Congress that basically would let the idiot playing President off the hook for any and all errors.
Hasn't it ever occurred to you that this is little more than a rubber stamp Congress that in their spinelessness have let this nation go to hell?
Conservatives idiotic rationalizations for Bushes behaviour are endlessly bizarre. They'd be comic if Bush and his accomplices weren't causing so much damage.
I can tell from your posts that were you in Congress you'd be another spineless rubber stamp.
Is it possible to have a recall election of a sitting senator? Do any of you guys know?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteGee glen, guess they all read your new book...
ReplyDeleteSure am glad FDL and gang are doing the "netroots" thing - their brand of political dialog is so much better than the people that have run traditional parties.
And best of all, they can criticize anyone they want and proclaim absolutely zero tolerance for anyone that does not choose to worship their "brand" of politics.
What a concept, proclaim to be the soul of a political party but isolate yourself from any real dialog.
Zenji said...
ReplyDeleteBart says: The 4th Amendment only requires warrants for "unreasonable searches and seizures."
HAHAHAHAHAHAH
woo! that is HILARIOUS! Can you *really* be that f'ing stupid?
Ah, another resident in a glass house throwing stones...
The fourth amendment, as posted here on this very thread, says that citizens shall have the right to be *free...from unreasonable searches and seizures*. It then goes on to enumerate that a warrant is required in ALL CASES *as a means of ensuring that ALL SEARCHES are REASONABLE.* That is the *point* of the warrant, get it?
Why are you editing the 4th Amendment in your attempt to make your point?
The 4th Amendment in whole states:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
By its plain language, the 4th Amendment enforces the people's right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures unless the government obtains a warrant based on probable cause that a crime has been committed.
The text does not state: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against all searches and seizures, shall not be violated..."
The courts have found a wide variety or searches to be reasonable. The usual dividing line is whether a common citizen could perform the same search in the normal course of life.
I have posted the half dozen cases universally finding that intelligence gathering does not need a warrant well over a dozen times on this blog.
Read them.
You're a joke, Bart. You're a misleading troll. You use transparently inconsistent and intellectually dishonest lines of argument that seem to make sense up until a certain level of context - the context of the laws and principles of our nation - is reached, and then when someone gets to that, you ignore them.
ReplyDeleteFirst, the Constitution grants Congress and not the Judiciary oversight power over the Executive. Congress may not delegate its Constitutional powers to the judiciary.
Transparently ridiculous. There's no abdication here. What there is are laws passed by Congress, including the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which the judiciary then rules on. Laws are not unconstitutional only ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. In several cases here you claim that FISA is transparently unconstitutional as if the whole world understood that and it was settled fact, but FISA is not unconsitutional. No law is unconstituional until declared so by a court. If President Bush violates FISA, his and your opinions of its constitutionality are meaningless. He is a criminal. Impeachment, jail, goodbye. He has broken the law.
What part of this don't you understand? Do you think George Bush can break any law he wants based on his own opinions of their constitutionality? What about criminal law? You could make any transparently ridiculous argument about the unconstitionality of criminal stautues, and the George Bush could just gun people down on the streets.
Or how about:
Intelligence gathering is also by definition an executive power and Article II also grants all powers of the Executive on the President.
By *whose* definition exactly. And so what if it is? Congress has to right to regulate that presidential power and subject it to law conditionally just like every other presidential power. The only reason they could not is unconstitutionality and this can only be declared BY A COURT!!!!!!
The 4th Amendment only requires warrants for "unreasonable searches and seizures." The courts who have examined this issue have all universally held that intelligence gathering is not an unreasonable search which requires a warrant.
Mendacious, dishonest trash. The courts have granted the president the right to search without warrants for agents of foreign intelligence agencies. That's the end of it. There's never been a case law where the president was allowed to spy without warrants on US citizens for intelligence gathering or anything else.
Interesting that there were no suicide bombings in Iraq today. I thought that al Qaeda would retaliate today with plans already in the pipeline...
ReplyDeleteglasnost said...
ReplyDeleteYou're a joke, Bart. You're a misleading troll. You use transparently inconsistent and intellectually dishonest lines of argument that seem to make sense up until a certain level of context - the context of the laws and principles of our nation - is reached, and then when someone gets to that, you ignore them.
Here we go again with the name calling by another product of government schools with no comprehension of the law...
Bart: First, the Constitution grants Congress and not the Judiciary oversight power over the Executive. Congress may not delegate its Constitutional powers to the judiciary.
Transparently ridiculous. There's no abdication here. What there is are laws passed by Congress, including the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which the judiciary then rules on. Laws are not unconstitutional only ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.
Dude, we are talking about whether Congress may delegate its own constitutional power to provide oversight of the Executive. You are confusing this with normal judicial review.
Under judicial review, the court can make a ruling of law. Under Congressional oversight, the Congress may merely ask questions.
In several cases here you claim that FISA is transparently unconstitutional as if the whole world understood that and it was settled fact, but FISA is not unconsitutional. No law is unconstituional until declared so by a court.
Really? So if Congress passed a law making all posters on this blog my personal slaves, then you are saying that law would not violate the 13th Amendment until a court said it did?
You apparently missed the discussion here on the Clinton Justice memo listing all the cases which held that the President need not follow lows which he reasonably believes to be unconstitutional.
If President Bush violates FISA, his and your opinions of its constitutionality are meaningless. He is a criminal. Impeachment, jail, goodbye. He has broken the law
So, if Mr. Bush refuses to enforce the hypothetical law making you my slave, he should be impeached?
Intelligence gathering is also by definition an executive power and Article II also grants all powers of the Executive on the President.
By *whose* definition exactly.
Dude, Congress does not go out and conduct intelligence surveillance on its own and it does not command the intelligence agencies which do. This is by definition an executive function.
And so what if it is? Congress has to right to regulate that presidential power and subject it to law conditionally just like every other presidential power.
Really? So congress can pass a law making Hastert the CiC and to deny the President the veto?
Did you take 6th grade civics?
Are there any other remedial civics students here?
I have to say I think Specter has come up with a rather novel approach to things. Since the Executive branch has claimed Article I powers as its own, it appears Arlen has decided turnabout is fair play and has proposed legislation that would grant the legislature the power to pardon, previously thought to belong exclusively to the presidency.
ReplyDeleteHigh marks for creativity, though, sadly, failing marks for Democracy.
Bart, the problem is that you've misread the FISA appelate case that you keep citing.
ReplyDeleteNo-one is arguing that the President doesn't have the power to conduct warrantless searches for purposes of national security. As the case you cite points out, that power is vested in the President by Article II.
The problem is that the Congress, under its Article I power to regulate the army and the navy, has every right to verify that the President is in fact conducting warrantless searches for national security purposes (as opposed to, for example, reasons of domestic politics). FISA is the mechanism the Congress selected to conduct this regulation.
Your interpretation effectively gives any President the right to conduct any surveillance for any reason, since you believe that the President's powers of surveillance are plenary. That's entirely contrary to Federalist #69, for example, which cites Congress's role as a key difference between the roles of the President and of the King of England.
To see where you go wrong, all you have to do is note that you've taken parallel clauses in the constitution--Congress's right to pass laws
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces
and Article II's statement that
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States...
and read them completely differently. You read the first as narrowly as humanly possible, while giving the second a vast penumbra. By doing so, you dismantle every possible check on the Presidency save impeachment.
p j evans said:
ReplyDeleteRead the archives.
Read the posts that are currently up.
Read Glenn's book, for Pete's sake.
Then, if you want to come back and whine about people not doing anything, at least your whining will be better-informed whining.
You assume I am not informed cause you did not like my post. It is not that people are not doing something, but you folks on the other side are on a merry-go-round to nowhere. As if "conservatism" or "liberalism" are the only points of view. It is the only points of view that is allowed by the political system that both parties control with the help of the MSM.
the base of both parties are nothing more than cogs in a well oiled political machine that is bringing this country down even after the base gets screwed, they always come back for more somehow.
Both of these political parties are the problem, with the help of a willfully ignorant public, or an uncaring one. All these parties do is manipulate the public through thier marketing consultants through the MSM to get elected. They represent corporate lobbyists and special interest groups not the people. So continue to put false hopes in both these political parties merry-go-round and if the dems do get in this year, in another ten years the people will vote them out and the repubs will continue to pass on the corruption, back and forth, round and round.
It is convenient to those in the minority to champion the constitution in public view, and with their actions, or inactions in congress help this administration continue to dismantle our rights. I geuss it is appropriate to show your character only after you gain power rather than when you in the minority and helpless. And it costs them nothing to play you like a fiddle!!
Why do some people keep trying to engage Bart in dialogue? His narrowminded, prolix and voluable posts are always the antithesis of Glenn's essays. I suppose that he sits, waiting for the lastest one to pounce on. Imaginative, he is not. He is stunningly argumentative in the worst way.
ReplyDeleteThe Dude is Nude!
I got a kick out of Andrew Cohen, the Washington Post's new legal blogger, calling Specter "Snarlin' Arlen" the other day when he actually thought Specter was serious about reigning in the White House. Nevertheless, I have to say that there are only a handful of Senators who have even spoken out against Bush's transgressions. Most Democrats mumble something about being a nation of laws with a separation of powers, and isn't it just a shame that Bush doesn't seem to believe it. No talk of impeachment, censure, or even limited hall privileges.
ReplyDeleteSo, much as I find the spectacle repulsive, I have to agree that Specter would probably be less inclined to do the twostep if he weren't totally alone within his own party and getting virtually no help from the opposition. That he's spoken up at all demonstrates a resolve that many Democratic Senators can't match these days.
Therefore, I resolve not to make any more Snarlin' Arlen references this weekend.
Appeals court sides with Bush on wiretap issue
ReplyDeletePanel rules Internet services have similar obligations to phone companies
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13227866/
I'll take the bait.
ReplyDeleteBart, please consider the kinds of hurdles that attorneys would have to scale to get search warrants under your interpretaion of the 4th Amendment:
ASS'T DISTRICT ATT'Y GREENHORN: Your Honor, the District Attorney's office requests a warrant to search John Doe's apartment because we have been provided by his former girlfriend with a videotape that shows Mr. Doe receiving $10,000 for a kilo of "Panama Pink" crack cocaine.
JUSTICE BEDAMNED: Mr. Greenhorn, you must be fresh out of college. Your application does not meet the unreasonableness criterion of the Fourth Amendment. Don't you know that your reasoning must be specious, lacking in facts, and otherwise meet the unreasonableness criteria established by Monty Python v. Board of Education, 47 1/2?
A.D.A. GREENHORN: Excuse me your Honor, yhou're quite right. Let me shuffle my papers aimlessly for a minute and re-present my argument.
J. B. You have my leave so to do.
(GREENHORN SHUFFLES PAPERS, WHISPERS INTO CELLPHONE)
A.D.A. GREENHORN: Your Honor, the District Attorney's office requests a warrant to search John Doe's apartment because he has been wearing a loud shirt in a residential area, without a dog license.
J. B. That's better, but strictly far more than is necessary. In future, please just assert that the District Attorney has no good reason at all, or picked Mr. Doe at random. That's quite sufficiently unreasonable for a search warrant.
A.D.A GREENHORN: Thank you your honor. I would also like a warrant to perform a full cavity search on Bart the Blogger, for no good reason.
J. B: Certainly. That's better. Next!
As vomit inducing as Spector's abasement surely is,I can't help wonder what the 'pugs think they are going to do about a DEMOCRATIC president handed that much power.Oh how the tables will be turned..
ReplyDeleteMy views have never been popular on this blog, but I have developed a great deal of admiration for most of the posters here despite many moments of frustration. To me they have mostly seemed to be, whatever their political differences, kind people who love America, have compassion for others including life's unfortunates, and a profound respect for the system of government our Founders left us.
ReplyDeleteSo with a heart full of good will for the commenters on this blog and to Glenn, I take leave and genuinely wish you all well.
I think the handwriting on the wall is clear enough now, and it turns out that my original observation-- that I was hoping was incorrect-- is the true one:
The dogs bark but the caravan moves on. --Arabian saying.
I guess the more things change the more they remain the same. I personally never thought there would be so few dogs barking but that's the way it turned out this time.
I would urge all on this blog, because of my feelings of affection for them because of their efforts here to consider this:
The more time spent on a situation once you realize it is probably hopeless, the less productive it becomes.
There are things in our own lives we all cherish. Even a police state won't keep us from being able to enjoy them. The time we spend hitting our heads against a wall is time taken away from those we love and life is short.
I personally have spent six months getting "acquainted" with politics, and countless hours reading, and not a single positive thing has come out of even one of those hours. It has been the reverse because I took time away from the things which are most important to me.
I now intend to hold close that which is precious to me and leave hopeless situations to others more idealistic.
Apparently the caravan is like City Hall--you can try but you find out along the way you simply cannot fight it. So what's the point of even trying?
Sooner or later, I think the phrase "aside from Sen. Feingold" is going to have to be amended to read "including Sen. Feingold." And then there will be no little indians at all.
It seems there is something going on that none of us knows about. I've concluded we are not going to find out either.
Politics. Caravans. Strange sciences, but for me, at least, they are going to have to remain strange from a distance.
Good luck to all the kind people here, people who are not heartless and people who are not cruel, as the song goes.....
Easy To Be Hard
How can people be so heartless
How can people be so cruel
Easy to be hard, easy to be cold
How can people have no feelings
How can they ignore their friends
Easy to be proud, easy to say no
Especially people who care about strangers
Who care about evil and social injustice
Do you only care about bleeding crowd
How about a needing friend, I need a friend
How can people be so heartless
You know I'm hung up on you
Easy to be proud, easy to say no
Especially people who care about strangers
Who care about evil and social injustice
Do you only care about bleeding crowd
How about a needing friend, we all need a friend
How can people be so heartless
How can people be so cruel
Easy to be proud, easy to say no
Easy to be cold, easy to say no
Come, on, easy to give in, easy to say no
Easy to be cold, easy to say no
Much too easy to say no
On the Internal Struggle
Generally, one requires a warrant. In various special circumstances, one being weapon patdowns in various situations, you do not.
ReplyDeleteRelevant here, this sometimes includes searches for purely national security reasons in certain contexts. Or, generally, non-criminal. Cf. Alcohol and drug checkpoints (safety vs. criminal).
Nonetheless, even here, the search must not be "unreasonable." Thus, reasonableness rules for airport and border searches. In fact, even with a warrant, such a search might be (such as forcing someone to vomit pills -- Rochin v. CA -- or removal of a bullet, Winston v. Lee).
Thus, the "unreasonable" test is an additional bar. Warrants are generally favored, but even if not, the search/seizure cannot be unreasonable.
There also are legislative checks. Thus, generally, banking records are not protected, but Congress can regulate them (interstate commerce and so forth) to protect our privacy. The same applies to regulation of the military, including military intelligence. FISA was a result of history of executive abuse requiring such protection.
Finally, Congress can protect our rights overall from federal invasion, including by the executive. As noted, the 4A is only the tip of the iceberg. Payton v. NY underlines how legislative action can help drawn up our "reasonable expectation of privacy."
Ditto.
PS. I see I am leaving at a good time. Those who enjoy bullshit can read the following post by Feingold (no more Sen. Feingold from me--I only use titles of respect when I respect someone) on the Huffington Post:
ReplyDeleteRedeploying from Iraq, Refocusing on Terrorist Networks
I commend our military forces for their success in targeting Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. The death of this ruthless terrorist, who led an insurgent campaign of brutal suicide bombings, kidnappings and hostage beheadings in Iraq, is great news for the Iraqi government and the Iraqi people. It is also a testament to the professionalism and capability of the men and women in the U.S. military and the effectiveness of well-planned and targeted operations.
Al-Zarqawi's death, however, will not end the insurgency that has pushed Iraq into a violent downward spiral. As we herald this significant accomplishment, we also near a very sad marker: the 2,500th death of an American soldier in Iraq. As long as large numbers of U.S. troops remain indefinitely in Iraq, that tragic death toll will continue to rise, because Iraq will remain a crucible for the recruitment and development of a wide range of terrorist networks determined to fight so-called American 'occupiers.'
The first step in creating a strong national security policy is recognizing that our massive presence in Iraq weakens our national security. Our Iraq-centric policies are diverting resources and attention from other places around the world where terrorist networks that threaten the U.S. are operating. We need to redeploy troops from Iraq so that we can focus resources on global terrorist networks and the conditions throughout the world that allow them to take root and thrive. I have repeatedly called for our troops to redeploy from Iraq by the end of 2006, and have filed an amendment to the Department of Defense authorization bill -- which the Senate will be taking up next week -- that would give that deadline the force of law.
It's time to return to our true national security mission in the wake of 9/11 by crafting a comprehensive strategy to fight terrorism. Our approach must be global, taking into consideration that our enemies can move easily in places with little or no governance, and can use 21st century technology to communicate, plan, and even execute attacks against us. This strategy must focus on developing strong partnerships with countries like Indonesia, the Philippines, and Mali, focused not only on security assistance, but on the development of a strong rule of law, respect for human rights, and fighting corruption.
A comprehensive strategy to fight terrorism must also address countries like Somalia. Failed states like Somalia are the breeding grounds for terrorism and instability. We know that this East African country is home to a range of terrorist and criminal networks that operate throughout the region. Yet, the U.S. government currently has no strategy to eliminate the conditions that allow these terrorists to train, equip, rest, and plan. Our budget for programs to counter these conditions is a mere $2 million per year, excluding food aid. That's roughly $1.6 billion less than we are spending on Iraq every week.
This Administration's single-minded focus on Iraq has crippled our ability to address the threats we face around the world. We should redeploy U.S. troops from Iraq by the end of the year so that we can refocus on our true mission in the wake of 9/11: defeating the global terrorist networks that threaten us.
Yeah, and the earth is flat. Woof woof. Or not. Pathetic.
PS. I hope you all read the myriad of articles about this Al-Zarqawi person. Apparently he was some fringe lunatic madman who had about as much to do with Iraq, Islamic Fundamentalism or any global terrorist network as Son of Sam.
whig said...
ReplyDeleteEnder is a provocateur.
Advocating violence is not constructive.
It's easy to feel the seduction of that approach for some people, but it cannot work. If you have to resort to violence to take power you have to use violence to hold it. If you have to use violence to hold power you are going to replace a bad system with another bad system.
Find a peaceful solution.
1:58 AM
Horseshit. A thorough and searching analysis of Thoreau would tell you even he wouldn't agree with you. Thoreau's Civil disobedience can include actions involving what you would call destructive violence. It inspired members of the Danish resistance to thev use of explosives against targets to resist the Nazis. When no peaceful solution or resolution is possible, even "peace officers" resort to pre-emptive, non-negotiable, coercive lethal force. And I do not read Ender as advocating that in any case. Not yet. Carry on, Ender.
EWO,
Good-bye.
We'll miss the drama.
ender said...
ReplyDeleteIs it time to break shit yet?
Not quite yet. Let me see if I can track down the CIA handbook they distributed in Nicaragua with suggestions on how the general populace could "slow down" the Sandinistas. Lot's of borderline stuff, like calling in sick, phone jamming, other "monkey wrench" types of actions and more the kind of thing the the GOP does on any election day.
I used to have a link to the scanned pages of the actual handbook, with the illustrations, it was in Spanish, but with translations. Really funny pictures. This is what the U.S. Government wanted the population in Nicaragua to do so it must be legal. Everything we do is legal, right? We are America, Dammit!
ReplyDeleteIn the mean time, read this, Ender:
PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS IN GUERRILLA WARFARE
A tactical manual for the revolutionary that was published by the Central Intelligence Agency and distributed to the Contras in Central America.
I'll see if I can track the leaflet link down.
NB: No one here is advocating anything. This was advocated by the U.S. Government, a government that meeets all of the definitional requirements of failed state more and more every day. This is for educational and informational purposes only.
ReplyDeleteCIA Sabotage Manual
Commentary:
The CIA had produced the book in Spanish to distribute in Nicaragua, and in 1999 an Australian activist redesigned the booklet, translating the text into English. And then had this to say:
"While the original document was intended to facilitate subversion of the Nicaraguan government, the techniques may be applied to any other state or ‘military-industrial complex’ with which the individual is aggrieved. NB: not only are some of these activities illegal, but encouraging people to engage in them is also illegal. With this in mind, this text is presented as a snapshot of the cold war mentality of intelligence agencies, and not as a practical guide to acts of sabotage."
"If Jesus were alive today, he would be a guerrillero."
ReplyDeleteCamilo Torres: priest and guerilla fighter
...Camilo Torres formed the United Front in January 1965, at the same time as the ELN, which had been formed in July 1964, came to public attention in the mountains of Santander. From that time Camilo and the ELN formed part of the same history, and the same commitment to struggle to the death, if necessary, for the liberation of the poorest classes.
Camilo was born in Santa Fé de Bogotá on February 3, 1929. From a very young age he expressed his intention to study for the priesthood. In 1954, after being ordained, he went to Belgium to study sociology at the University of Lovaina. On his return to Colombia five years later, he discovered the complex problems affecting Colombia and immersed himself in them.
His contact with ordinary people, and his respect for them and their achievements, quickly led him to become an important leader of the people's movement. He was convinced that only through unity could the acquisition of power be achieved, and it was from this perspective that, along with other leaders of the people's movement, he formed the United Front.
The front very quickly became part of the life of the poor classes of Colombia. Camilo's ideas were constantly developing, and he began to stress the need for unity between Marxists and Christians to achieve the common objective of making revolution so as to feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty and give clothes to the naked. Camilo used to say, "Why should we debate amongst ourselves whether the soul is mortal or immortal, when we both know that hunger is mortal?" He called on Christians to live up to the moral and ethical demands of their faith, contending, "Revolution is not only permitted for Christians, but obligatory".
He once described the objectives of the United Front movement in the following way: "Our principal work is to organise the non-aligned majority of the poor classes, who don't belong to any political party, into a program and a line of action that will lead us toward the taking of power by, and for, the poor".
The work of the front gave meaning to its slogans, "For the unity of the people forever", and "For the taking of power by the people forever." Camilo realised that the corrupt political class of Colombia would not develop policies beneficial to the people, nor hand over power to them, and that it fell to the people to take power for themselves.
In early 1965, Camilo began to have contact with the National Liberation Army because he shared the principles and objectives of this emerging guerilla movement. Later that year, in an open letter to the Colombian people, he wrote, "I have joined the ELN because in it I find the ideals of the United Front, and the desire for, and existence of, a unity of the base, a campesino base, without differences of religion or traditional parties. The ELN will not lay down its arms until power is totally in the hands of the people."
The progressive radicalisation of Camilo, the repression against the United Front and the imprisonment of its members all hastened his joining the guerillas in the mountains. His life was under threat from the oligarchy, who feared him because they saw his leadership and ideas questioning the structures of repression and creating consciousness amongst broad sectors of the poor classes.
On October 18, 1965, he joined the ELN as an ordinary combatant. He expressed his wish to be considered as just another soldier in a letter to the leadership of the ELN. He wrote, "Be sure that with God's help I will put aside all other considerations, except the good of the revolution, in whatever role I am assigned. I don't aspire to be a leader, just to serve up to the ultimate consequences."
He remained true to these words until his death. In his difficult life as a guerilla, he happily performed his duties, rejecting any privileges offered him on the basis of his priesthood and history within the people's movement. Teaching campesinos to read, he shared with them the little food they could offer him and came to understand and share their needs.
It was his strong desire to serve that led him to ask to participate in political-military actions. He was refused several times because of the risks involved. Nevertheless, he continued to ask, and eventually was allowed to form part of a column that was to carry out an ambush of army troops and attempt to seize their weaponry. On February 15, 1966, in Patio Cemento in the department of Santander, Camilo died in combat...
Hmmm, Cujo 12:05 AM, I hadn't realized that Specter was running for president:
ReplyDelete"...Specter was serious about reigning in the White House."
(Yes, I'm a member of the spelling and grammar police. Particularly annoying errors lately in other posts are 'thier' and 'niether'.)
bart said...
ReplyDelete"Interesting that there were no suicide bombings in Iraq today. I thought that al Qaeda would retaliate today with plans already in the pipeline..."
There was a total ban on traffic in Iraq today. The streets were empty.
bart said...
ReplyDeleteHere we go again with the name calling by another product of government schools with no comprehension of the law...
That's hilarious, Bart. And an indication of your own ignorance and partisan political bias. If there were any truth to your assertion or thesis, Catholic school girls would be no fun at all. Trust me, they are. Not that you'd ever know that. It is your comprehension of the law that is at variance with the majority of the commenters here, and the last 100 years of jurisprudence, specifically The Warren Court and The Burger Court. You might prefer that the 14th Amendment had never been conceived of, passed and adopted, but I doubt that you would argue that in any of your DUI cases. Bart would prefer that no indigent people be provided with legal counsel in any criminal proceedings. Gideon v. Wainright takes money out of his grubby little hands.
aqualung said... (anyone ever ask him his political affiliation?)
ReplyDeleteEssentially Bart is the American Nazi party. He used to be a "glibertarian" but decided that was "too utopian". He is now an American fascist. He is a frequent commenter at Free Republic (have we gotten his screen name there, yet?) He was probably not even campaigning for Bush prior to 2000, (too liberal) few Freepers were, and only became slightly enamored of him after he climbed on top of that pile rubble in NYC and barked bullshit through his bullhorn. That's all it took to get the fascists excited.
Specter's is a new form of domestic terrorism, keeping what's remaining of the aware, and awake, American public on edge.
ReplyDeleteThese occasional "psychological dramas" as Greenwald aptly characterizes them, are like a well-scripted play whose end is already established. They thrash the mind in their beginning tone suggesting "some hope" in otherwise a sea of total criminality, and then dash these same hopes with a swift knife in America's back.
It wasn't enough that the current mal-administration threatened reporters with arrest for publishing all those precious "state secrets" so, in comparison, electronic spying on each and every citizen of this country is small potatoes for the press. Seems to me they're looking forward to tanks in the streets.
So with one Democrat left standing, do we have hope?
Not a goddam thread of it.
I've read your book. I admire your work, and I wish that all that you said could make a difference. But, I am a lot older than you are and my shock over what has happened to our Constitutional powers and rights as citizens, in fact our whole apprehension of what it means to be a citizen is far greater than even yours. With every passing day, every piece of news from Washington, I realize that the game is lost. Voting machine fraud, special interest money, corporate power and influence over Congress, and the ignorance of the American Pulic about their most basic rights and obligations as citizens tell me that we have entered the dark journey to a police state and a dictatorship and there will be no turning back to what I once recognized as American Democracy.
ReplyDeleteThere seem to be at least three possibgilities for Specter's actions:
ReplyDelete1) He's using the letter to Cheney and other anti-NSA talk as a smokescreen to cover his real agenda of covering Bushco's asses;
2) He's using the legislation described by Glenn as a smokescreen for his effort to gain oversight of the NSA spying operations;
3) He's schizophrenic; such violently disjunctive behavior can only come from someone who's profoundly torn at the core of his psyche.
No doubt, the truth lies somewhere in between 1 and 2: Specter's trying to wobble his way to a compromise that will have elements of both extremes; that is, he's trying to gain oversight powers while giving Bushco some face-saving cover.
Hmm, let's see. Pardons in advance would mean there's no point in investigations. Optional warrants will mean that oversight also is optional. How nice for them.
ReplyDeleteMakes a person wonder if the William Jefferson kerfuffle was an object lesson.
semper fubar: What else so easily explains why even the democrats roll over so easily?
ReplyDeleteMy guess is that the Dems play dead on these issues because their market research and focus groups show that it is not a "politically" prudent thing to do. Since there's little stomach for rational discussion on this issue, the Dems seem willing to play center of the filed, hoping thereby to gain influence with the middle of the road voters.
David Byron:
ReplyDeleteJust to clarify, the post by "Al" at 5:47 was not from me. Any posts by me always have a blogger link to my profile. Plus, I try very hard never go ad hom.
Why do some people keep trying to engage Bart in dialogue?
ReplyDeleteBecause we have morons like CYNIC LIBRARIAN who don't have a clue about what an REAL REQUEST for information is nor understand the concept of a dialog.
Chipping in your 2 cents worth on the inane, off-topic, and obvious falacies of our resident "copy and paste" troll seems to make some feel better.
It actually turns the whole thread into a platform for a lying liar to catapult his propaganda.
Guess I am most disappointed with the one that proclaims to the world to be part of a profession that should know better.
I expect an attorney that makes a living defending drunk drivers to be dishonest and a shill.
I also would hope that a professional librarian would actually think about the reader's information needs before endlessly baiting a troll that brings nothing to the dialotg -- feeding that troll just invites more nothingness.
And to proclaim you are a librarian -- what a sham!
Oh boy, we are gonna get into the arguments about who gets to use anonymous handles and letters...
ReplyDeleteway to go, glad some think they own abc or whatever... And it makes them special...
The Polite Liberal 11:38 PM,
ReplyDelete"No-one is arguing that the President doesn't have the power to conduct warrantless searches for purposes of national security. As the case you cite points out, that power is vested in the President by Article II.
The problem is that the Congress, under its Article I power to regulate the army and the navy, has every right to verify that the President is in fact conducting warrantless searches for national security purposes (as opposed to, for example, reasons of domestic politics). FISA is the mechanism the Congress selected to conduct this regulation."
This is the section of FISA, the part that specifically addresses congressional review, that AG Gonzales was talking about during the NSA hearings:
"(1) Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year [...]
(2) An electronic surveillance authorized by this subsection may be conducted only in accordance with the Attorney General’s certification and the minimization procedures adopted by him. The Attorney General shall assess compliance with such procedures and shall report such assessments to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence under the provisions of section 1808 (a) of this title."
Note that no requirement for judicial review is mentioned in this section of FISA. I know you guys don't like to hear it, but General Hayden has appeared a number of times before the Senate Intelligence Committee beginning in October of 2001.
Yes, I know about the "there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party" part, but there is a legitimate question as to whether or not ALQ contacts fairly fit within that definition, or if they might be more accurately classified as "agents of a foreign power" under the AUMF depending on the scope of their activities.
In any case "no substantial likelihood" is not the same as if FISA read "zero likelihood" as some people imply.
Dems briefly made a huge fuss about Rockefellers infamous handwritten letter to VP Cheney dated July 17, 2003 hidden in a drawer, ["Clearly, the activities we discussed raise profound oversight issues. As you know, I am neither a technician nor an attorney."] that is until they realized how silly this entire hidden letter scenario might appear to some of their constituents.
Ex Post Facto justification opens an new window of interpretation to the whole of law.
ReplyDeleteOnly Mr.Magic Bullet could do this...
-Mr.Murder
At the risk of commenting to a dying or dead post, I provide the following quotation from Claude Lefort's essay Human Rights and the Welfare State:
ReplyDelete[T]here is no institution which can, by its very nature, guarantee the existence of a public space in which it is possible to question right on an increasingly broad basis. But, conversely, that space presupposes that the image of its legitimacy is reflected on a stage erected by distinct institutions, on a stage upon which actors entrusted with political responsibilities can be seen to move. And when parties and Parliament no longer assume their responsibilities, it is to be feared that, in the absence of a new form of representation capable of responding to society's expectations, the democratic regime may lose its credibility. It must also be feared that what I have termed the distinction between power, law and knowledge, which lies at the origins of the modern consciousness of right, may lose its symbolic efficacy when the exercise of justice on the one hand and the dissemnination of information through the press, radio and television on the other are no longer seen to be essentially independent of one another. In other words, when political, juridical and intellectual actors so often appear to be acting in accordance with orders dictated by interests, by the need for group discipline or by the need to court public opinion, we have good cause to worry about the corruption they are spreading. -- from Democracy and Political Theory, pp. 43-44
Go here to understand what this immunity is all about.
ReplyDeleteIT'S ABOUT THREE SOUTH DAKOTA PATRIOT ACT MURDERS BY "DOD CONTRACTORS USING NSA WIRETAPPING" TO murder Daschle's ex chief of staff, RICH GORDON.
IT'S about the use of Directed Energy Weapons to induce brain tumors, strokes, and heart attacks.
IT's about a secret orwellian government, that hides behind plausible deniabilty using DOD contractors and subcontractors to do illegal surveillance, while...the FBI sits around with a thumb up their ass.
It's about the destruction of the rule of law.
Go here...follow all links....
http://control-alt-delete.ca/v-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=6454&start=90&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
JaO,
ReplyDelete"Just to correct the record, the FISA language quoted out of context by The Fly in this comment is not at all what he claims. Rather, this section covers the special case when the government wiretaps a foreign government"
You are mis-quoting FISA. It doesn't say "foreign government", it says "foreign power", or "agents of a foreign power", nor does FISA specify any geographical limitations on where such surveillance would be allowed to take place, if that's what you intended to imply.
That's what I love about this blog...
ReplyDeleteEqual time for tin foil hat wearing wingnuts:
shooter242 @ 4:15
and
tommythebug @ 5:21
How fitting.
Specter seeks to pardon Chimpy from his crime of ignoring FISA and lying to Americans numerous times; going out of his way to lie, actually? OoooK.
ReplyDeleteHowever, Specter cannot pardon him for international crimes.
Imagine Bush and Cheney being arrested at 12:01 pm, after the next president is sworn in, by Interpol.
"The Fly" selectively (and dishonestly) quotes 50 USC § 1802:
ReplyDeleteThis is the section of FISA, the part that specifically addresses congressional review, that AG Gonzales was talking about during the NSA hearings:
"(1) Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year [...]"
What was in those little ellipses there? Anything significant? Well, let's see..... *Mmmmm, browsing* Well, lookee here:
"... if the Attorney General certifies in writing under oath that—
(A) the electronic surveillance is solely directed at—
(i) the acquisition of the contents of communications transmitted by means of communications used exclusively between or among foreign powers, as defined in section 1801 (a)(1), (2), or (3) of this title; or
(ii) the acquisition of technical intelligence, other than the spoken communications of individuals, from property or premises under the open and exclusive control of a foreign power, as defined in section 1801 (a)(1), (2), or (3) of this title;
(B) there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party; and
(C) the proposed minimization procedures with respect to such surveillance meet the definition of minimization procedures under section 1801 (h) of this title; and
if the Attorney General reports such minimization procedures and any changes thereto to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence at least thirty days prior to their effective date, unless the Attorney General determines immediate action is required and notifies the committees immediately of such minimization procedures and the reason for their becoming effective immediately."
Yep. "The Fly" didn't leave out anythign of significance there, did he (including the cite to the specific statute he was quoting).
Such honesty is breath-taking in this age of "argumentation throug sound bites".
Cheers,
shooter242 tries the ol' tu quoque "Clinton's penis! Clinton's penis!" tactic for the three hundred sevety-fourth time:
ReplyDeleteOh, and how naive you are. This is a good opportunity for an object lesson.
To wit: Democrats abuse power in greater and more creative ways than Republicans.
The only difference is that you and the majority of the press accept it because it's being done by your side. I believe that's the definition of hypocrisy, yes?
Consider these items.....
* Indicting a White House support agency chief to get him out of the way for a friend.
Huh?
* Stacks of FBI files in the white house for unknown purposes.
Despite $60 million and a IC run amok, nothing to show for this; Starr dropped this charge.
* Accusations of rape
Here I'll agree. Accusations of rape are ana bose of power (and the Republican house managers that used this tactic to try to strong-arm a reluctant Congressmen into signing on to their little impeachment party really ought to be ashamed of themselves. But that's to the Republicans' discredit, so dunno why you brought that up....
* Having over a hundred pages of a special prosecutor's report redacted by fellow Democrats because of IRS audits on enemies and favors performed.
Ummm, Nixon was the one that hijacked the IRS....
* Warrantless eavesdropping via Carnivore
Huh? Any specifics of the charge here?
* Don't forget Eschalon
Legal. Overseas. Go look it up ("Menwith Hill" in particular).
* Bombed Iraq
Here I'll agree. But still tu quoque
* Bombed Bosnia for 80 days straight, killing lots of civilians,
Dunno where you get this "lots of civilians". Just to make things clear: Did you oppose this?
* kidnapped a kid and sent him to a communist country
Ummm, nope. Sent him back to his father on order of the court.
* seduced an intern
And?.... Oh, yeah. Sorry, I forgot: "Clinton's penis! Clinton's penis!!!"
Nah, the hypocrisy is all on your side, shooter.
Cheers,
In passing I note that HWSNBN has, as predicted, ignored my counters to his blathering here.
ReplyDeleteCheers,
Why the congress has fallen on their swords for this president is beyond my comprehension. What in the world are they trying to do? Allowing the president to continue with his lawless ways will change our democracy forever. Why congress doesn't care about this is so surreal. The mainstream media has been such a disappointment. What has happened to their patriotism? Why have they completely rolled over for Bush? What Bush, congress, and the media are doing to our democracy is a disgrace!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThe Polite Liberal said...
ReplyDeleteBart, the problem is that you've misread the FISA appelate case that you keep citing.
I am not relying upon the In re Sealed Case opinion. The dicta in that case ( as was the testimony of the FISA judges before Congress) is an interesting indication of how that the FISA courts would rule that FISA does not apply to the President's Article II powers.
No-one is arguing that the President doesn't have the power to conduct warrantless searches for purposes of national security. As the case you cite points out, that power is vested in the President by Article II.
Some folks here confused about the 4th Amendment might disagree, but I am glad we have that straight.
The problem is that the Congress, under its Article I power to regulate the army and the navy, has every right to verify that the President is in fact conducting warrantless searches for national security purposes (as opposed to, for example, reasons of domestic politics).
This provision concerns the ability to enact a code for the discipline and order of the uniformed services, which they did with the UCMJ. The provision says nothing about directing intelligence gathering, the courts have never interpreted this provision to do so and Congress never claimed it was using this provision to enact FISA.
Even if this provision applied to intelligence gathering, it would be limited to the uniformed services by the plain text of the constitution. It is very debatable that the NSA would fall under that definition. They are primarily civilians and I do not believe that UCMJ covers NSA.
Your interpretation effectively gives any President the right to conduct any surveillance for any reason, since you believe that the President's powers of surveillance are plenary.
No, the courts have limited this power to situations where the targets are foreign groups or their agents and the primary purpose is intelligence gathering, not criminal evidence collection. That is the sole exception of which I am aware. That limited exception is plenary because only the President has this power.
Bart, just a very quick question here.
ReplyDeleteWould you be making these same arguements if the President was a Democrat?
No?
Didn't think so.
jao:
ReplyDeleteCongress' general authority to regulate the military is not controversial.
As I pointed out by supplying a link to the thousands of laws passed by Congress that apply to (or at least reference) the military (and most of which are not the UCMJ). HWSNBN ignores this, of course.
And of course, HWSNBN continues wit his "straw man" anout "directing" surveillances, when in fact they were simply regulating surveillances.
Which is why HWSNBN is simply a dishonest troll....
Cheers,
*sigh*
ReplyDeleteFISA always complied with the Constitution. There was NEVER any controversy over that, and nobody suggested that it did... until Bush got caught with his hand in the warrantless cookie jar.
A secret tribunal where defendants' lawyers can be prevented from seeing evidence against their clients is in no way complying with the Constitution.
The FISA law should have been challenged decades ago.
What the hell has happened to the sensibilities of Americans that apologists for this criminal administration can show up in public discourse, drop exasperated *sighs*, as if their warped notions are universally accepted, and not be run out of the country on a rail?
How much you want to bet that if Specter's proposed legislation were to become law, it would be immediately repealed the instant a Democrat became president.
ReplyDeleteHow is it not occurring to bright and articulate people that Republicans wouldn't be backing any of the legislation of the last 6 years if there was a chance in hell that Democrats were going to ever be in the majority again?
The election machine is broken, Republicans are able to steal elections. They're stolen the last 3 and can steal all future ones. All Republicans have to do is get their base to show up in big enough numbers to make noise and make it look close while their operatives are knocking legal voters off the voting polls through felon purge lists and caging lists, then they fix the paperless receipt machines, toss out provisional ballot voters, and another election falls into their laps.
It's over. The great experiment in democracy is done, America is finished.
I was heartened by Spectre's initial opposition, but he is a relentless weasel- making noise to keep himself front and center, and then legally justifying the crimes with incredible legislation when attention is diverted. When he started hearings for Alito, he invited him to not answer anything he didn't want to, undermining and subverting the whole process at the start. Why bother even holding hearings? He is a craven creature, not much changed from the hustling lawyer who came up with the "Magic Bullet theory" to explain the unbelievable contentions of the Warren Commission.
ReplyDeleteThe truth is, every Repub has decided that his and Party fortunes will sink or swim based on Bush's standing; and they will do anything to protect him, lest the tidal wave of voter disgust sweep them away. They aren't Americans anymore, they are corrupt empty shells, and 80% could be immediately imprisoned for their crimes. There is no explanation for Dems silence except for their neutering at the hands of the tyranical majority.
http://hammernews.com/
http://hammernews.com/unpatrioticspying.htm
This fundamental issue which carries implications of the survival ofthe basic tenets of the Constution will notbe opposed by any politiion with anythingto lose-meaning allof them.
ReplyDeleteBush has his trump card which he plays every time. That card is fear and patrriotism. Any Senator who publically opposes Exectutive abuses can be accused of crippling the President's efforts to protect our country. Nolo Contendre
if the 9-11 bombers would have done that a week earlier, and focused on the national capitol, they could have nailed the whole bunch in a joint session of congress.
ReplyDeletehow unfortunate for us that they didnt!!
Trying to give Coulter a run for her money on how low the rhetoric can go? Comments like the above aren't witty enough to justify the level of perniciousness.
ReplyDeleteIf-- and only if -- we do OUR part, the Congress can be repaired with deaths only of hte political variety.
"(1) Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year [...]
ReplyDeleteUpthread I am referring to the Attorney Generals congressional testimony. I may have been mistaken about what section of FISA he refers to there, but as I recall a few of the Senators were asking the Attorney General about an "escape hatch" provision in FISA, and there was some linkage made by the A.G., via some such provision, to the 2001 AUMF.
Anyway, my overall point was not to discuss FISA itself, but to highlight those phrases in FISA including "Notwithstanding any other law" in the context of applying FISA to the enemy as they are later defined in the more recent AUMF:
"those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons"
Note that in the AUMF unlike FISA, all of these various suspects are not referred to collectively as "international terrorists" but are instead lumped together as one entity in a catch all paragraph, i.e. together a "foreign power".
I don't think it requires a huge leap of imagination to conclude that the NSA might want to conduct international military surveillance of all of the above, and in that case no FISA warrant would be required unless they were specifically targeting US persons.
Additionally, the AUMF also contemplates military action against nations that harbored the suspected organizations, or persons.
Again, the section of FISA I was talking about permits warrant less surveillance of foreign powers, [not just foreign governments] and their agents:
"(a) 'Foreign power' means-
(1) a foreign government or any component thereof, whether or not recognized by the United States;
(2) a faction of a foreign nation or nations, not substantially composed of United States persons;
(3) an entity that is openly acknowledged by a foreign government or governments to be directed and controlled by such foreign government or governments"
Hence, the FISA and AUMF definitions seem to intersect there to a certain degree, and I don't see why ALQ in Afghanistan [and in other theocratic states] wouldn't fall under (2) "a faction of a foreign nation or nations, not substantially composed of United States persons" in FISA.
It seems to me that if Congress intended there to be a brick wall isolating FISA from being read in light of all subsequent laws, it would have made sense for them to leave out the phrase "notwithstanding any other law".
JaO 8:25 PM,
ReplyDelete"(4) a group engaged in international terrorism or activities in preparation therefore [...] That precisely describes Al Qaeda, a stateless organization that is a faction of no government whatsoever."
Congress deemed it necessary to specifically enumerate in the 2001 AUMF "those nations, organizations, or persons he [the president] determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons" rather than the "group engaged in international terrorism" and for good reason...