Saturday, June 03, 2006

Liberal Jesus

By Barbara O'Brien

I want to thank Glenn for inviting me to blog at you while he's away. I also hope I am not imposing on this generosity by plunging in with a post on religion. I promise this will be a request for tolerance, not conversion. I am not a Christian, but I am religious, and sometimes I find myself defending Christians from the religion haters among us lefties. This week’s potshots come from radio show host and author Barry Seidman, who describes himself as a humanist and secularist. In response to recent advances by the Christian Left, Seidman writes that he’s happy the Christian Left is “joining the good fight against Christo-fascists like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Tim LaHaye and President Bush.” However,

… the coupling of religion and politics is as dangerous for the left as it is for the right, because absolutism, authoritative supernaturalism and the actual tenets of the Abrahamic religious texts can never be reconciled with democracy and freedom.

In my experience liberal Christians respect the separation of church and state, so it’s not clear to me what worries Mr. Seidman. I infer he thinks that religious liberals are just kidding themselves about their liberalism. No matter how tolerant they try to be, he thinks, sooner or later their Inner Whackjob must assert itself. Liberal Christians may be just one bad hair day away from reviving the Inquisition.

Seidman continues,

... members of both the religious right and left subscribe to the same ethics of hegemony and domination as did their ancestors who wrote their unscientific understanding of ethics on papyrus thousands of years ago. Both create just-so stories and impart their beliefs while nurturing insidious territorialism. The ancients did not have the scientific knowledge or the intellectual maturity necessary to live together with all of humanity in mutual respect, free of myths and separatist values. What is our excuse?

I think Seidman speaks for many of the secular Left who see Christians as a tribe of primitives clinging to Stone Age superstition. Though they may use electronic gadgets and take Lipitor to reduce their cholesterol, they distrust science as the work of the Devil. And the worst among them are determined to turn America into a pre-Enlightenment backwater. Although liberal Christians may seem reasonable on the surface, deep down there's got to be something wrong with them, we think. How can Christian dogma be reconciled with rational thought?

Christianity may be the most dogmatic major religion on the planet, I admit. In most denominations the follower is presented with an elaborate belief system and told he must accept these beliefs absolutely; doubt often is considered weakness. Since the West is overwhelmingly Christian, here even the nonreligious assume this dogmatism is what religion is all about.

But conservative Christianity’s emphasis on a literal belief in doctrine and ancient texts is an aberration among religions and is not even true of all of Christianity. Historian Karen Armstrong argues that a rigidly literal reading of scripture is a relatively recent development.

... faith is not a matter of believing things. That’s again a modern Western notion. It’s only been current since the 18th century. Believing things is neither here nor there, despite what some religious people say and what some secularists say. That is a very eccentric religious position, current really only in the Western Christian world. You don’t have it much in Judaism, for example. …

… I think we’ve become rather stupid in our scientific age about religion. If you’d presented some of these literalistic readings of the Bible to people in the pre-modern age, they would have found it rather obtuse. They’d have found it incomprehensible that people really believe the first chapter of Genesis is an account of the origins of life.

Westerners often cling to an infantile religion focused on a Big Daddy God and the face of Jesus mysteriously appearing on pancakes and cheese sandwiches. And since that's what much of religion in America looks like, it's easy to assume that’s what religion is. That, and the fact that the world seems infested with warring religious whackjobs, makes religion easy to hate. I understand that.

But the problem isn’t with religion. The problem is that, somehow, we’ve allowed religion to be defined by the stupid and the warped, resulting in stupid and warped religion at war with all things rational and humane. But religion doesn't have to be that way.

Followers of other religions can be baffled by notion of scriptural literalism. His Holiness the Dalai Lama was once asked what he would do if science disproved something written in a sutra. He said that he would revise the sutra. Westerners sometimes don’t know how to take this, but even the Buddha told his followers they shouldn’t accept anything he taught them on faith. Believing the sutras is not the point of the sutras, any more than believing in science is the point of science.

Many of the world's religions do not regard their sacred texts as collections of facts that must be accepted unblinkingly by the faithful. Rather, texts, doctrines, and practices are means, not ends. They are interfaces with realities that confound the limitations of human intellect. These realities also confound the limitations of human language, so they cannot accurately be explained in words. From this perspective any religious understanding that can be explained in words or reduced to dogma is flawed. As it says in the first line of the Tao Teh Ching, "The Tao that can be explained is not the Tao."

For this reason, the language of the world's sacred texts is more often representational than literal, and most scriptures are meant to be read as allegory or myth rather than as God's FAQs. Some religious traditions regard their deities not as meddling invisible super-persons but as something more like Jungian archetypes. Even the God of monotheism is viewed by some monotheists as an allegorical creation meant to represent something beyond understanding and ordinary existance; the ground of being, for example. Karen Armstrong points out that science also uses mythological language — e.g., “Big Bang,” “black hole” — for realities that dangle just outside the scope of most human cognition.

But people stuck in rigidly left-brained, literal thinking can render even the most mystical religion into dogma. Thus, fundamentalism. Fundamentalism can happen to any religion, but monotheism seems especially suseptible to it. And at the moment Muslim and Christian fundamentalists have gone way beyond the nuisance stage and present a genuine threat to civilization on this planet. But the fault for this lies in the corruption of religion, not in religion itself.

Mr. Seidman accuses liberal Christians of intellectual dishonesty.

[E]ven if the Religious Left has developed a healthier and somewhat more liberal understanding of human society based on compassion, interconnectedness, fairness, and justice, it is just as sure that they did not base these views on actual scripture. They merely attempt to make scripture fit their liberal beliefs, because the Bible is anything but liberal. I call this buffet religiosity--cherry-picking the parts of scripture that conform to their worldview, and discarding the ones that don’t. (How, exactly, one can justify cherry-picking the words of God, is beyond me.)

I have had lovely discussions with liberal Christians who understand the Bible was written by people with limitations and prejudices, and that ideas about God have evolved over time. Many even accept historical evidence that the Gospels were not, in fact, written by Apostles but by second- and third-generation followers who didn’t know Jesus personally. Once you accept that Jesus’s words may have been imperfectly recorded in the Gospels, disregarding the parts that seem out of whack is not “cherry picking,” as Seidman assumes, but critical thinking. (See also the Jesus Seminar.)

I've long suspected that whatever Jesus was about got buried pretty quickly under the interpretations of lesser teachers and dogmas that arose in the centuries after his death. The Doctrine of Trinity itself didn’t become the central doctrine of the church until the 4th century; some biblical scholars doubt that Jesus saw himself as God. (As a Jew, he might have been appalled at the idea.) And although most Christians don’t question standard doctrine, there are those who find their true spiritual quest in digging through the doctrinal minutia of the ages to get closer to the authentic Jesus.

Mystical and dogmatic approaches to Christianity co-existed through most of Christian history. Mystics like Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross lived in the shadow of the Inquisition. In recent times dogmatism has prevailed, but mysticism didn’t die altogether. And in a time when the light of science makes most religious dogma seem, well, absurd, some Christians are working to restore Christian mysticism to its former place of respectability. Even though I ducked out of that struggle to take up the Buddhist path instead, I heartily wish them well.

My point here is that secularists like Mr. Seidman should not prejudge the religious and assume we’re all enslaved by ancient superstitions or believe in a Santa Claus God. Clearly, Mr. Seidman has a narrow and limited (and, may I say, dogmatic) understanding of what religion is.

Throughout American history Christians have played a leading role in social and political progress, from the Abolitionist movement to the Civil Rights movement. In recent years Christian liberalism, like political liberalism, has been eclipsed by the Christian and political Right. Of all people, liberals should be able to understand that Christianity is not necessarily what the Right says it is. We must not allow rightwing groupthink to infect us and divide us.

Thomas Jefferson said “it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” Likewise, Mr. Seidman need not concern himself with the religious views of others who aren’t concerning themselves with the secularist views of Mr. Seidman. Instead of worrying that the Christian Left will contaminate democracy, I recommend that he, like Jefferson, swear “eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” That’s the enemy of us all, religious or not.

Recommended reading: "Dalai Lama honours Tintin and Tutu" (the BBC, June 2, 2006); Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science" (originally published in the New York Times magazine, November 9, 1930).

158 comments:

  1. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  2. Anonymous12:13 PM

    Contrary, Heavenly, and Cardinal Virtues


    The Cardinal Virtues:
    prudence, temperance, courage, justice

    Classical Greek philosophers considered the foremost virtues to be prudence, temperance, courage, and justice. Early Christian Church theologians adopted these virtues and considered them to be equally important to all people, whether they were Christian or not.

    The Theological Virtues:
    love, hope, faith

    St. Paul defined the three chief virtues as love, which was the essential nature of God, hope, and faith. Christian Church authorities called them the three theological virtues because they believed the virtues were not natural to man in his fallen state, but were conferred at Baptism.

    The Seven Contrary Virtues:
    humility, kindness, abstinence, chastity, patience, liberality, diligence

    The Contrary Virtues were derived from the Psychomachia ("Battle for the Soul"), an epic poem written by Prudentius (c. 410). Practicing these virtues is alledged to protect one against temptation toward the Seven Deadly Sins: humility against pride, kindness against envy, abstinence against gluttony, chastity against lust, patience against anger, liberality against greed, and diligence against sloth.

    The Seven Heavenly Virtues:
    faith, hope, charity, fortitude, justice, temperance, prudence

    The Heavenly Virtues combine the four Cardinal Virtues: prudence, temperance, fortitude -- or courage, and justice, with a variation of the theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity. I'm still researching the origins and popular usage of this formulation.

    The Seven Corporal Works of Mercy

    Continuing the numerological mysticism of Seven, the Christian Church assembled a list of seven good works that was included in medieval catechisms. They are: feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, give shelter to strangers, clothe the naked, visit the sick, minister to prisoners, and bury the dead.


    Of course Evangelists will tell you this is a false teaching of the evil Papists.

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  3. liberals should be able to understand that Christianity is not necessarily what the Right says it is.

    Any close reading of the gospels reveals a Jesus far removed from the cartoon teachings of the religious right. Even using the phrase "a loving God" reveals the flaws in their pro-war anti-love theology.

    Though I follow my own path spiritually, the one thing that I realized very early was that if there is only one God then s/he's there for everyone. Any religion that divides the world into practitioners and infidels is false.

    Having said that, my science reading indicates to me that religion as experienced by most people is in fact an evolutionary adaptaion selected for because of its ability to promote group cohesion and group identity. As such, it isn't going to go away anytime soon, and if we're going to continue to flourish as a species, we're going to have to come to grips with it.

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  4. You write:

    "Rather, texts, doctrines, and practices are means, not ends. They are interfaces with realities that confound the limitations of human intellect. These realities also confound the limitations of human language, so they cannot accurately be explained in words."
    Instead you say these means are:
    " ... meant to represent something beyond understanding and ordinary existance; the ground of being, for example."
    Forgive me but it appears you've simply changed the venue here. Instead of tangible means (texts,etc.) for your dogma you've changed the venue of "religion" to subjective,mystical means.
    What are these "realities" you speak of? What is "the ground of being"?

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  5. I'm reading a new book called God Without Religion. The premise I'm interested in is how Religion per se gets out in front of God ... kinda sums it up.

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  6. Ms. O'Brien:

    Thank you for your thoughtful article.

    This week’s potshots come from radio show host and author Barry Seidman, who describes himself as a humanist and secularist. In response to recent advances by the Christian Left, Seidman writes that he’s happy the Christian Left is “joining the good fight against Christo-fascists like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Tim LaHaye and President Bush.” However,

    … the coupling of religion and politics is as dangerous for the left as it is for the right, because absolutism, authoritative supernaturalism and the actual tenets of the Abrahamic religious texts can never be reconciled with democracy and freedom.


    This is the perfect example of the religious and secular divide. Christianity, Islam and Judaism are about the voluntary submission of humans to the laws of God. Secularism is about rejecting the laws of God to do as we wish as individuals.

    So called Liberal Christianity tries to have it both ways. They proclaim their belief in God, but argue that individual men and women should be able to reinterpret the law of God any way they wish and all interpretations are as good as any others.

    If you believe in God and believe in absolute truth as I do, then neither secularism nor "Liberal Christianity" can work for you.

    There are undoubtedly mistakes in the religious texts written by fallible humans in all faiths. However, mistakes are not a license to reject all religious texts as "myths" or "allegories."

    The Dalai Lama had it exactly right. It is the duty of humans to search for the truth and reject that which is demonstrably false in order to find God.

    Hell has been described simply as a place without God. To reject the truth means that you will be without guideposts and unable to reach God.

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  7. Anonymous12:37 PM

    This is BULL posting religion on Glenn's blog. If I wanted to read a pius sermon from you, I would check your blog....

    Which I quit doing many months ago because of your attitude towards the views of other liberals, progressives, and democrats (don't mind you deleting the wingnut trolls, but you didn't stop there).

    HO HUM, gratefully AL wrote a reasonable, thoughtful, and inclusive post downstairs.

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  8. "Secularism is about rejecting the laws of God to do as we wish as individuals."

    I praise in order to twist. Secularism has two strands. First, the "separation of church and state" strand (a secular state). Second, the non-God belief structure.

    The latter replaces "God" with reason in some form, while our resident dissenter here implies it means self-gratification. Since what the "laws of God" depends on human experience (who does God reveal things too?), human reason applies there too.

    As to the post ... the idea religion (especially of the biblical times variety) didn't include literalism works for me, up to a point. But, to say it didn't include "believing in things" is a bit ridiculous.

    Don't use "believing" if all you mean "resisting literalism." Consider the gospels: they repeatedly find it necessary (at times quite literally, almost ridiculously so at times) to appeal to OT "prophecies" to show that Jesus was the answer to their prayers.

    As to the "cafeteria" approach, this is more troubling in various instances. The most troubling are liberal Catholics, of which people like Anna Quindlen might fall. "Catholicism" means something. For instance, one really can't be a true loyal Catholic and support abortion and gay marriage.

    But, the theme goes further. "Christianity" implies something too, though a bit less clearly than the doctrinal requirements of Catholicism.

    As to Jesus as God, John repeatedly has him saying as such, while the other gospels surely seem to be. Jesus "of God" (putting aside the third part of the trinity) was surely accepted by the 2nd century by the official church.

    Good piece, but it goes a tad far.

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  9. Anonymous12:48 PM

    Barbara...excellent, thought-provoking post!!

    Thanks for tackling such an important subject, at a critical time, with the recent news of a rising liberal Christian posture on the geo-political mess BushCo has engineered.

    Seidman seems to be pulling a common tool from the GOP bag of tricks in belittling, or diminishing the value of liberal Christianity's ability to employ critical thinking. It's the "Democrats do it too," line of argument, wrapped up in Ecclesiastical vestments.

    There is so much meat in what you wrote, and it's a shame that the dogmatic will dismiss it as modern thought, and therefore unacceptable and dangerous.

    Styve

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  11. They proclaim their belief in God, but argue that individual men and women should be able to reinterpret the law of God any way they wish and all interpretations are as good as any others.

    Reading Leviticus reveals why such reinterpretation is appropriate and necesary. As we as humans have matured so our sense of justice and morality matured. It was only a few generations ago that human slavery was considered perfectly in keeping with scripture. Our breaking with tradition leads not to less morality but to a more inclusive and humane morality. Which unironically was exactly what Jesus was all about.

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  12. Joe said...

    Bart: "Secularism is about rejecting the laws of God to do as we wish as individuals."

    I praise in order to twist. Secularism has two strands. First, the "separation of church and state" strand (a secular state). Second, the non-God belief structure.

    The latter replaces "God" with reason in some form, while our resident dissenter here implies it means self-gratification.


    No, secularism replaces the laws of God with whatever the individual wants to believe. You can fashion that as "reason," but reason is not required under secularism. Thus, the secular argument I quoted that religion is incompatible with democracy, where everyone gets to express what they believe.

    Since what the "laws of God" depends on human experience (who does God reveal things too?), human reason applies there too.

    No, the laws of God were revealed to man by God. Humans can confirm the wisdom of God's laws through personal experience. For example, a society with intact families which follow the Ten Commandments is much likelier to be happy than one who does not.

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  13. Anonymous12:55 PM

    I am also no Christian, in fact, I'm an atheist, but I have read the New Testament, and Christianity means absolutely nothing if it is not a command to love all humanity and to act on that love by tending to those who are weak, sick and destitute. This is not the mealy-mouthed "love" of modern pop culture, but a deep compassion for humanity, an understanding that the human condition is fraught with injustice, poverty, hate, hunger, and pestilence. The christian's only purpose is to provide to those in need that which they need.

    Mother Theresa was not an extraordinary example of a Christian...all those who would call themselves Christians are compelled to do just as she did, and to the same degree.

    As you can see, there are almost no real Christians in the world, as there rarely have been.

    Christianity is a radical call for humans to rise above our selfishmess. our egos, vanity, fear, hate, and greed, tribal and social conflicts, and to understand that all humans are brothers, all are afflicted, and all deserve aid and comfort.

    It is not in the least about believing in some supernatural entity whom we will someday reside with in Heaven, but is a vigorous and harsh discipline for living. Few persons can achieve that which Christ commanded, but those who would follow him must do all they can in the attempt.

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  14. Anonymous12:59 PM

    Bluester:

    Instead of tangible means (texts,etc.) for your dogma you've changed the venue of "religion" to subjective,mystical means.

    Mysticism isn't subjective if you're practicing it within a disciplned tradition. I did mystical boot camp at a Zen Buddhist monastery, and I assure you the Zennies don't put up with subjectivity.

    New Age-style play-pretend mysticism that was popular awhile back is something else entirely, of course.

    What are these "realities" you speak of? What is "the ground of being"?

    That which is ineffable cannot be explained in words. I'll say only that I haven't perceived anything by means of Zen practice that contradicts science.

    Please note that it's fine with me if this religion stuff doesn't interest you. I argue, however, that it's a tad patholotical to hate it just because it doesn't interest you or because there's something about it you don't understand. There are many things I don't understand, yet I don't hate them. Well, OK, I do have a bit of an attitude about algebra, but I admit that's a personal flaw.

    I'm a disaster at team sports and was much traumatized by being forced to play team sports in high school phys ed, yet I don't hate team sports. Nor do I feel a compulsion to talk you out of watching Monday Night Football if that's your thing. To each his own, eh?

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  15. Anonymous1:04 PM

    HEY GANG - THERE IS A REAL DIALOG AND NOT A BUNCH OF SERMONE IN THE THREAD "DOWNSTAIRS." BE SURE TO SCROLL AND JOIN US

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  16. Anonymous1:05 PM

    Glenn, you are going to hear about this BULLSHIT when you get back!

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  17. Anonymous1:12 PM

    However, mistakes are not a license to reject all religious texts as "myths" or "allegories."

    The notion that myths and allegories must be rejected because they aren't true is a newfangled and limited understanding of myths and allegories. Jesus himself taught in parables. If you were to find out that, for example, the parable of the Prodigal Son was a story Jesus made up to illustrate a point, does that mean you have to toss it out of the Gospels? Or is it still OK to reflect on it to perceive the point Jesus was trying to make?

    To suggest that scripture can be interpreted in an allegorical way is not to reject it, but to see what the scripture is teaching in a different light.

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  18. Anonymous1:14 PM

    From Bart at 12:26PM:

    "So called Liberal Christianity tries to have it both ways. They proclaim their belief in God, but argue that individual men and women should be able to reinterpret the law of God any way they wish and all interpretations are as good as any others."

    Were all humanity, or at least all Christians, perfect copies of one another experiencing exactly the same things exactly the same way, this criticism would be valid.

    As it is, given the propensity of individuals to have both different perspectives and experiences (witness our ongoing debate over the scope and authority granted by Articles I and II of the Constitution, as 'sacred' a text as any for our system of governance), expecting us all to hold the *exact* same set of values and subscribe to *exactly* the same interpretation of God/the Divine is a fool's errand.

    Certainly there can be broad areas of consensus and agreement, but equally there can and will be points of disagreement; how many of the different branches of the 'Christian' faith share the same basic tenents yet different on comparatively small points of doctrine or ceremonies of worship?

    "If you believe in God and believe in absolute truth as I do, then neither secularism nor "Liberal Christianity" can work for you."

    Agreed. If you're conviction of "absolute truth" is just that, then clearly there can be no alteration or amendment to it. Clearly 'secularism' nor 'liberal Christianity' are an anathema. You can tolerate neither inquiry nor challenge of that truth.

    In other words, you're every bit the fanatic and would be better off joining Aum Shinrikyo or signing up with Al Qaeda.

    "There are undoubtedly mistakes in the religious texts written by fallible humans in all faiths. However, mistakes are not a license to reject all religious texts as "myths" or "allegories." "

    Oddly, I didn't see anything of the sort being suggested in Ms. O'Brien's post. I suspect you're showing more of the weakness of your own faith than offering a decent argument here; after all, if you faith cannot withstand a bit of justified criticism, particularly the tendency to accept stories literally millennia-old as fact with a notable lack of evidence to confirm or at least support them, precisely what good it then?

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  19. sometimes I find myself defending Christians from the religion haters among us lefties.

    Glenn, you are going to hear about this BULLSHIT when you get back

    Nothing makes bart and shooter happier than when they see liberals forming a circular firing squad. I'm not sure the best way to heal this rift but I do want to thank you for the post!

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  20. Anonymous1:42 PM

    Bart, I don't see why you label Seidman's quote about religion being incompatible with democracy as a "secular" argument.

    It appears to be solely an argument advanced by one Barry Seidman.

    If secularists can believe whatever they want to believe, then they are free to agree with Mr. Seidman or disagree with him.

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  21. yankeependragon said...

    From Bart at 12:26PM: "So called Liberal Christianity tries to have it both ways. They proclaim their belief in God, but argue that individual men and women should be able to reinterpret the law of God any way they wish and all interpretations are as good as any others."

    Were all humanity, or at least all Christians, perfect copies of one another experiencing exactly the same things exactly the same way, this criticism would be valid.


    Bart: "If you believe in God and believe in absolute truth as I do, then neither secularism nor "Liberal Christianity" can work for you."

    Agreed. If you're conviction of "absolute truth" is just that, then clearly there can be no alteration or amendment to it. Clearly 'secularism' nor 'liberal Christianity' are an anathema. You can tolerate neither inquiry nor challenge of that truth.


    I also posted:

    The Dalai Lama had it exactly right. It is the duty of humans to search for the truth and reject that which is demonstrably false in order to find God.

    Hell has been described simply as a place without God. To reject the truth means that you will be without guideposts and unable to reach God.


    You are confusing inquiry seeking the truth with refusing to follow truths and laws with which you disagree. The latter is not inquiry, it is rebellion.

    In other words, you're every bit the fanatic and would be better off joining Aum Shinrikyo or signing up with Al Qaeda.

    al Qaeda does not follow Islam as it is instructed in the Quran. Like liberal Christians, they change the truths and laws with which they disagree to conform with their group world view.

    Bart: "There are undoubtedly mistakes in the religious texts written by fallible humans in all faiths. However, mistakes are not a license to reject all religious texts as "myths" or "allegories." "

    Oddly, I didn't see anything of the sort being suggested in Ms. O'Brien's post.


    Try this:

    For this reason, the language of the world's sacred texts is more often representational than literal, and most scriptures are meant to be read as allegory or myth rather than as God's FAQs.

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  22. Anonymous2:02 PM

    But, of course, all religious myths and texts ARE allegories, as there is no supernatural realm, no actual God or gods, no heaven.

    Religious texts are lessons in how to live life, and dramatize life's turmoil and conflict, and show the means by which others have and by which we should cope with life's challenges. To be "born again" as a Christian is a metaphorical description of the new person one becomes when one dispenses with one's old values, biases, and self-serving vanity and selfishness in order to serve the needs of other humans in the NOW, in this, the only world available to us.

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  23. I've long suspected that whatever Jesus was about got buried pretty quickly under the interpretations of lesser teachers and dogmas that arose in the centuries after his death.

    That's certainly what Thomas Jefferson thought

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  24. Robert1014 said...

    But, of course, all religious myths and texts ARE allegories, as there is no supernatural realm, no actual God or gods, no heaven.

    Religious texts are lessons in how to live life, and dramatize life's turmoil and conflict, and show the means by which others have and by which we should cope with life's challenges.


    None of the people who wrote these religious texts thought they were writing self help books. They believed that they were relaying the word of God given to them.

    If these authors were deluded about God's word, what does that say about the law which they were relaying to others?

    You cannot separate God from His Law.

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  25. Anonymous2:09 PM

    bart: "al Qaeda does not follow Islam as it is instructed in the Quran. Like liberal Christians, they change the truths and laws with which they disagree to conform with their group world view."

    Um, so you believe that fundamentalist Christians are not following Christianity properly? I don't necessarily believe that. I think all fundamentalists are fooling themselves with this absolute truth business. They twist the truth and law to suit their world views as much as anyone (witness every bart post).

    If al Qaeda takes the parts of the Quran that serve their violent purposes and justifies this as being the 'literal truth of the Quran', that's just what a fundamentalist does? How do 'liberal Christians' approach religion like al Qaeda? If they are being wishy-washy, New-Agey or relativists, aren't they doing the exact opposite.

    Besides, the moderate Muslims in the Middle East are the liberals who are "re-interpreting" the Quran to be peaceful (At least that's what al Qaeda claims). Your argument is backwards.

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  26. Anonymous2:10 PM

    Christians and Jews are moral relativists. They believe that it is permissible in some situations to behave in the most immoral ways imaginable because God told them.

    It is permissible to commit genocide on the inhabitants of a country because you are the chosen people and God gave the land to you. (Cannan, North American)

    It is permissible to sacrifice your child for the Glory of God (Isaac, Jesus)

    This moral relativism is inconsistent with any rational ethical guidelines, and let's face it, once you have rejected Abraham, the Promised Land and the Crucifixion, there isn't really much left of Christianity and Judiasm, except for the prohibitions against wearing cloth made of wool and linen and eating shellfish.

    So Christians and Jews are faced at the very least with an internal contradiction.

    I haven't read Barbara O'Brien before. Apparently she is interested in religion and seemingly you also, "respect the separation of church and state." Maybe she can also resolve the obvious contraditions to your satisfaction. Maybe she doesn't even have an Inner WhackJob.

    All I can say is that she must be capable of some prodigious, and frankly incomprehensible, internal mental gymnastics. If she don't condemn the genocide of the Caananites, on what internally consistent basis can she condemn the Holocaust?

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  27. Anonymous2:12 PM

    Barbara, interesting article. But here's my simple answer: Jesus told us that "Love God" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" are the commandments that override and supercede ALL other commandments and laws. He lived this out by helping all in need, even breaking Jewish laws of the time in order to do so, even helping those who were the enemies of the Jews, even befriending those Jews who were outcasts (tax collectors, lepers, prostitutes, etc.).

    His life was the prime example of selfless compassion. Whether or not you believe Jesus was the son of God, you can still use his life as an example of how to live.

    My point is that *all* Christians should *always* be about these two greatest commandments. With these two commandments, there is no tortured logic, or bending of rules to reach a "liberal" conclusion. And we can still be students of science, and of mystery.

    Robert1014, an avowed atheist, in his post shows that he "gets it".

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  28. This is an exceptionally poor post - and a disappointment, too, since this blog has been a favorite of mine for a while now. Seidman is correct: it is cherry picking when you pick some things to believe as Truth and other things not when the only criteria are your own culturally-derived values. Everyone in every religion cherry picks because it's impossible to treat everything in an ancient religion as equally valid. Few, though, are honest enough to admit that this is what they are doing - to admit that they have arrived at an independent decision to treat some things as belonging to an ancient culture and as no longer applicable, even though the text doesn't explicitly permit it.

    I'll have to post a more detailed response on my own site in a couple of days. There are simply too many flaws here to deal with in a comment. It's a shame, but perhaps instructive, that the author didn't deal with what should be treated as the most important point: how to ensure that religious liberals don't make this same mistake that conservatives made when they coupled religion and politics - making political beliefs a test of religious sincerity and vice-versa. Conservatives didn't always do this, but it's an attitude that has developed and is dangerous. There's nothing about political or religious liberalism that would automatically prevent. Liberals are just as susceptible as conservatives. Seidman was right to bring it up.

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  29. Anonymous2:19 PM

    Bart: I was writing about all the sacred texts and scriptures in the whole world of all religious throughout human history, not just the Bible. And in most of the world's religions, the sacred texts, scriptures, whatever you want to call them, are understood not to be factual accounts of history.

    For example, I don't believe Hindus value the Bhagavad-gita as a factual history of a physical Krishna and a physical Arjuna on a historical battlefield. Maybe a few do, but on the whole the Gita is valued because of what it says about the nature of existence. The story is just a vehicle. It doesn't matter whether it really happened or not.

    There's no historical evidence that the Buddha ever existed. I am inclined to think stories about the Buddha are based at least a little on an actual guy, but it's possible all the accounts of the life of the Buddha were just made up by somebody. It's obvious from the historical record that the stories were embellished considerably as time went on, in any event. But as a Buddhist I have no problem at all accepting accounts of the Buddha's life as myth and not literal history. Believing that some ancient stories are literally true is not what the religion is about. That's not what most religion is about.

    Literalness is a bugaboo common to monotheism, but is an aberration in the context of all the world's religions taken together.

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  30. steve said...

    bart: "al Qaeda does not follow Islam as it is instructed in the Quran. Like liberal Christians, they change the truths and laws with which they disagree to conform with their group world view."

    If al Qaeda takes the parts of the Quran that serve their violent purposes and justifies this as being the 'literal truth of the Quran', that's just what a fundamentalist does? How do 'liberal Christians' approach religion like al Qaeda? If they are being wishy-washy, New-Agey or relativists, aren't they doing the exact opposite.


    First, you are confusing fundamentalism with theocracy.

    Fundamentalists by definition apply their religious tradition as written - no addition or subtraction.

    Liberal Christians like the "cafeteria Catholics" pick and choose what they want to apply from their religious tradition.

    al Qaeda are not fundamentalists. They have taken the concept of religious striving known as Jihad and turned it into a death cult, abandoning the commandments to love their fellow human beings and against murder and suicide.

    Where al Qaeda and Liberal Christianity are similar is that they pick and choose what they want from their religious traditions. This is not fundamentalism.

    Where al Qaeda and Liberal Christianity are different is that al Qaeda wants to force their world view on others in a fascist theocracy. Liberal Christianity doesn't even believe in evangelism or the spreading of the word of God.

    Besides, the moderate Muslims in the Middle East are the liberals who are "re-interpreting" the Quran to be peaceful (At least that's what al Qaeda claims). Your argument is backwards.

    Try reading a good translation of the Quran with annotations. The Quran, like the Bible, commands humans to love one another. This is not a "reinterpretation." It is there for anyone to read.

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  31. Anonymous2:25 PM

    Fundamentalism n.
    "A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism."

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  32. Barbara O'B. said...

    Bart: I was writing about all the sacred texts and scriptures in the whole world of all religious throughout human history, not just the Bible. And in most of the world's religions, the sacred texts, scriptures, whatever you want to call them, are understood not to be factual accounts of history.

    I would strongly disagree. The three religions which are followed by the vast majority of the world's population - Christianity, Islam and Judaism - all purport to report factual accounts of history. Indeed, the Quran is supposed to the the word for word revelation of God as written by Muhammad which corrects the errors of Christianity and Judaism.

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  33. I think all fundamentalists are fooling themselves with this absolute truth business. They twist the truth and law to suit their world views as much as anyone.

    And insofar as they are leading the attack on science education in this country, they are foolish and dangerous.

    All I can say is that she must be capable of some prodigious, and frankly incomprehensible, internal mental gymnastics. If she don't condemn the genocide of the Caananites, on what internally consistent basis can she condemn the Holocaust?

    I gathered from her post that she is a practicing Budhist and as such probably has little to say about the Caananites.

    The whole point of the exercise is that "secular" Liberals who eschew alliance with Christian liberals do so at the expense of the entire movement if for no other reason than it allows the Christian right to steal the claim of moral authority for a theology and ideology which is morally bankrupt.

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  34. Anonymous2:30 PM

    Whether or not you believe Jesus was the son of God, you can still use his life as an example of how to live.

    Back in my days of formal Zen study I once saw my teacher, dharma heir of a respectable Japanese lineage, offer incense to Jesus as one of his spiritual ancestors.

    This sort of thing makes fundies, both religious and secular (lots of secular fundies these days, methinks), nuts, because it doesn't fit their cognitive filing system.

    I am not telling people they should or should not be religious. I'm just trying to expand people's narrow ideas about what religion is so they aren't so judgmental about it.

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  35. Anonymous2:42 PM

    The three religions which are followed by the vast majority of the world's population - Christianity, Islam and Judaism - all purport to report factual accounts of history.

    As I said, literalism is a bugaboo of monotheism. However, most of the world's religions are not monotheistic. And I have met lots of sincere and devout Christians who were not literalists. They are a minority, that's true, but that doesn't mean there's something wrong with them or the way they view Christianity.

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  36. I think O'Brien recognizes a legitimate problem; many atheists (including myself at times) see sane religious people as ticking time bombs--you never know when they might go off. I think that most religious people have accepted enough assumptions that fundamentalism becomes pretty irrefutable, and they can only remain sane and reasonable people by keeping their religious beliefs separate from their everyday ones, and by cherrypicking when appropriate (note: "most"≠"all"). Given the assumptions I think most religious people have, I don't think they can really justify either of those practices. If something shakes them up, they're likely to either jettison their religious beliefs (e.g. enlightenment thinkers after the Lisbon earthquake) or jettison their rationality (e.g. the Church during the same period). Some believers seem to be immune, but we outsiders have no way of telling which ones, so we see all of them with some skepticism. That's probably not fair of us, and it does cause unnecessary problems, some of which O'Brien addresses.

    I'd like to see a form of Christianity that is not susceptible to dogma, but I haven't encountered it yet. I do believe that Buddhism is capable of the kind of rational spirituality O'Brien describes, but I'm less sure about monotheists.

    I'd be thrilled to see some kind of mutual detente where the kind of Christians O'Brien is talking about demonstrate their rationality and we secularists begin to trust them more. I think it has to come from both sides.

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  37. How about we have just ONE blog that gets all of the democrats-hate-religion concern trolls?

    I figured that blog would be Drum's Washington Monthly, with good 'ol Amy Goodman, but maybe this blog would serve as well.

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  38. Anonymous2:47 PM

    All I can say is that she must be capable of some prodigious, and frankly incomprehensible, internal mental gymnastics.

    You don't know the half of it. You should have met me after a few months of Zen koan study. :-)

    If she don't condemn the genocide of the Caananites, on what internally consistent basis can she condemn the Holocaust?

    What an odd thing to say. Why do I have to be religious at all to condemn genocide? Are you saying that nonreligious people must be sociopaths?

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  39. Ms. O'Brien:

    It certainly is refreshing to find some variety here, and in particular I appreciate the fact that you can get your points across without the usual anti-Bush political rhetoric sprinkled throughout your post.

    I respect the fact that Roman law and Christianity together form much of the basis for all of western civilization today, and had a major influence on the framers of the US Constitution. It is truly amazing how many people today are totally unaware of this, and are nonetheless eager to mindlessly toss all religious components of ancient history out the window as a mere inconvenience to be replaced with who knows what.

    The separation of church and state and freedom of religion issues are well settled, unless people start demanding freedom from all traces of religion, which is a step too far. Tolerance for the thoughts and ideas of others, it seems, would go a long way toward helping to maintain a constructive political dialog. While entertaining, this Blog is often taken over by a small army of narrow minded followers never stepping out of line.

    That's fine, but what would be wrong with allowing others to try to find some common ground along the way? Why is it that people like Anonymous 12:37 PM, desperately try to stifle discussion of all ideas that happen to fall outside the average Bush haters comfort zone?

    Anonymous 12:37 PM, try re-reading and understanding this new authors post before commenting on it further, it seems to me there is nothing for you to fear other than your own stupidity.

    Bart [2:22 PM] makes a great point.

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  40. There is an enormous amount of pseudo-Christian blather in this country. But there is very little real Christianity being practiced.

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  41. Anonymous3:01 PM

    From Bart at 1:46PM:

    "You are confusing inquiry seeking the truth with refusing to follow truths and laws with which you disagree. The latter is not inquiry, it is rebellion."

    Clearly you missed my first point, to whit you simply can't expect every person on the planet, or even just two of them, to interpret events, evidence or their personal experiences in precisely the same way. Human beings aren't wired that way.

    Yes, we can have shared values with an awful lot of grayscale variations between them, and yes we can hold a general consensus about what is 'true' versus 'false'.

    But ultimately you and I and the remaining 6 billion individual humans on this planet cannot and will not hold exactly the same outlook on everything, most especially God/the Divine. We have only our own experiences to work from and the values/moral system that evolve from those experiences. The notion of a single "absolute truth" is, in my estimation, absurd.

    "al Qaeda does not follow Islam as it is instructed in the Quran. Like liberal Christians, they change the truths and laws with which they disagree to conform with their group world view."

    The same of course goes for Episcapalians, Mormons, Catholics, Penacostals, Baptists, Anabaptists, Methodists, Seventh-Day Adventists, Protestants, and pretty much every other sect and cult to arise out of Christianity.

    Guess the only logical argument is to outlaw it completely, or you can just acknowledge that no-one has a monopoly on 'truth'.

    Finally, I maintain Ms. O'Brien wasn't advocating an outright rejection of all religious texts everywhere as 'myths'. She was pointing out they are essentially human constructs whatever their origin (the Qu'ran is really the only religious text out there reported to be a direct transcription of the Word of God, at least as communicated by the Archangel Gabriel to Mohammed; the fact its text, unlike the Christian Bible, has gone unedited and without addition or subtraction is something of a testament to the durability of its message and the faith of its adherents). As such, they are no more deserving of unquestioned obedience than Tolstoy's "War and Peace" should be viewed as an exact historical account.

    Ultimately, any religion is little more than myth and allegory was it rests upon personal experiences that often border on the supernatural; it does no harm to the faith itself to admit this, as it is the faith itself and the message it contains (whatever that might be) which is important.

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  42. Anonymous3:02 PM

    "see Christians as a tribe of primitives clinging to Stone Age superstition"

    Yup. And you can add to that followers of any religion. Scientists have identified a region in the brain that when stimulated with electricity invokes a sense of encountering the supernatural or "god". There's also a gene that seems to control how much the supernatural appeals to people. So it really is primitive and not controlled by the rational brain. Hit 'em in the knee with a small hammer and their foot jerks. Fire a specific neuron in the brain and Jeezus is talkin' to them.

    That said when religion is used as the Dalai Lama has said for the comfort and enlightenment of human beings it's a good thing. That's not the way 99% of the religious whack jobs (fundies of any religion) use it. They forfeit their "image of god" potential to be subservient wretches cowering in fear of the big, mad, daddy in the sky.

    As an atheist, I appreciate what a mature embrace of religion can do for a person. I wish the religious leaders would do a better job of imparting that to their followers.

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  43. Anonymous3:03 PM

    If she don't condemn the genocide of the Caananites, on what internally consistent basis can she condemn the Holocaust?

    "What an odd thing to say. Why do I have to be religious at all to condemn genocide? Are you saying that nonreligious people must be sociopaths?"

    You don't have to be religious to condemn genocide. It is trivial to articulate a consistent moral position against genocide, outside a religious framework.

    The point is that the religious Jews and Christians contenance the genocide of the Caananites but condemn the Holocaust. What's the difference besides the person claiming that they hear God's voice?

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  44. Anonymous3:14 PM

    From Bart at 2:27PM:

    "I would strongly disagree. The three religions which are followed by the vast majority of the world's population - Christianity, Islam and Judaism - all purport to report factual accounts of history."

    Of course, any religious text seeking 'legitimacy' in the court of public opinion will make the same claim. Of them, only the Qu'ran has the strongest claim as it was written by Mohammed himself in his own lifetime. The four gospels in the Bible by contrast were written anywhere from 30 to 100 years after the crucifixion, plus there are 20 or so more such 'gospels' not included in the modern printings of the Bible. I admit I can't speak for the veracity of the Torah or any of the Jewish texts.

    Bart, you've yet to present a decent argument against her point. Do you even have one?

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  45. Anonymous3:15 PM

    disenchanted dave: Excellent points.

    I was raised a devout Christian but left Christianity in my early 20s after my skepticism in various dogmas reached critical mass and my entire faith collapsed. I still thought there was probably something to this God and Jesus thing that had been buried under the dogmas, but the various institutionalized Christian churches aren't much help with that.

    After some years of religious meandering I found my way to Buddhism, which works for me. But I can also see that a "rational spirituality" approach, as you put it, could work with Jesus's teachings as well. And, as I said, I have met actual Christians who are going that way. I believe some of the medieval Christian mystics went down a similar path.

    Even liberal Christians who accept standard Christian doctrine are not necessarily irrational, nor are they likely to turn into Grand Inquisitors. Oddly, among liberals some secularists are more rigidly fundamentalist than most Christians. As we are seeing on this thread.

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  46. Anonymous3:35 PM

    As an atheist, I'll take liberal Christians over atheist NeoCons any day of the week.

    Yes, they do exist. Atheism in and of itself does not guarantee sanity.

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  47. Anonymous3:42 PM

    "Liberal Christians may be just one bad hair day away from reviving the Inquisition."

    Dang, a Christian with a sense of humor!

    The core problem, though, isn't liberal vs. conservative Christians/Muslims/Bhuddists/Jainists/Jews. The problem is religion itself. It is a power concentrator that organizes and emphasizes primitive and ugly parts of the human psyche, and inevitably they lead to horrific us vs. them behaviors. We'd all be a lot better off without relkigion of any kind, and any form of religion when present in any government is a disaster waiting to happen.

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  48. Scientists have identified a region in the brain that when stimulated with electricity invokes a sense of encountering the supernatural or "god".

    We'll leave it as an exercise for the reader as to how that particular region of the brain came to be.
    The fact that such a "God circuit" not only exists but is easily exploited by religious leaders to lead to acts of incredible grace or incredible evil is just one of the quandaries that we as humans are now forced to deal with.
    But deal with it we must!

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  49. Anonymous3:44 PM

    The point is that the religious Jews and Christians contenance the genocide of the Caananites but condemn the Holocaust. What's the difference besides the person claiming that they hear God's voice?

    Christians didn't get together and vote for me to speak for them, but as I recall, in those long-ago days when I was still a Christian, I thought most of the stuff that went on in the Old Testament was mildly interesting but had little bearing on what I believed as a Christian. If there are any liberal Christians around who want to tackle that question, though, be my guest.

    In any event, I am reasonably certain that most non-fundamentalist Christians are opposed to genocide under any circumstance. And, frankly, whether they're being doctrinally consistent or not is something they have to work out for themselves. I don't see why it's your concern, any more than how they have sex or what they choose to read.

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  50. Anonymous3:45 PM

    bart:

    The three religions which are followed by the vast majority of the world's population - Christianity, Islam and Judaism - all purport to report factual accounts of history.

    "Religions" can't "purport." Only people can purport. Who exactly is doing the purporting and what gives them the authority to do so on behalf of all followers of their respective religions?

    Further, if there's anyone who can be shown to "cherry-pick" the parts of their religion they choose to embrace or reject, it's the Christians who enthusiastically support killing their fellow humans with whom they disagree.

    It's sad, but entirely predicable that so much venom can be inspired among people who like to think of themselves as peace-loving when the subject is broached along with the suggestion that peace is a principal tenet of every major religion.

    "I'll only go for peace as long as it conforms with my narrow, bigoted view of reality...otherwise, I'd just as soon kill you."

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  51. It is a power concentrator that organizes and emphasizes primitive and ugly parts of the human psyche, and inevitably they lead to horrific us vs. them behaviors

    Those parts of the psyche aren't going away anytime soon and the last time I checked, atheist vs religious was an us vs them dichotomy.

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  52. i must strenuously object to the phrase "religion haters among us lefties": at best it's facile, or more likely at worst, totally off the mark...

    it isn't religion we hate, or, better put, loathe/despise/detest, it's the sanctimonious, hypocritical pratts who would have it shoved down our throats...

    i am not a christian, not anymore; used to be catholic, but i don't really have to get into that church's long history of forcing doctrine at the point of a spear, do i... ?

    i *am*, however, receptive to spirituality, with an appreciation to the *individual's* perception of what, in fact, is vs. what is not...

    or to summarize (as i must get back to work here) a bumper sticker i saw a while back: "i don't know, and neither do you!!"...

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  53. actually the bumper sticker read: "militant agnostic: i don't know and neither do you!"

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  54. yankee: The four gospels in the Bible by contrast were written anywhere from 30 to 100 years after the crucifixion, plus there are 20 or so more such 'gospels' not included in the modern printings of the Bible.

    The earliest Christian writing is Paul's letter to the Thessalonians, written 40CE. The eraliest canonical Gospel is Mark, ca. 60-70ce. Matthew and Luke are ca. 80s CE and rely on Mark. John is perhaps as late as 90CE although it probably contains material as early as Mark.

    The "other" (gnostic) Gospels, were written 100 to 200 years later. Some (Crossan) have speculated that the Gospel According to Thomas (GT) (only) contains material that relies on the so-called Q source material, which is pre-Markan, ca. 40-50 CE. GT,as we now have it from Nag Hammadi is probablt 130-150 years later than Jesus' crucifixion, although Crossan disputes this.

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  55. phd9: The fact that such a "God circuit" not only exists but is easily exploited by religious leaders to lead to acts of incredible grace or incredible evil...

    Allof this talk of a god gene is highly speculative and quite debatable. There's a lot of work to be done here. Even if there were to be a so-called gene for religion, would that explain anything about religious belief? I think not.

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  56. barabara ob: In any event, I am reasonably certain that most non-fundamentalist Christians are opposed to genocide under any circumstance.

    I believe that many if not most fundamentalist Xtians are also against genocide.

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  57. All of this talk of a god gene is highly speculative and quite debatable

    I however, reserve the right to beleive in it as a matter of faith! /snark

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  58. phd9: I however, reserve the right to beleive in it as a matter of faith!

    As Kierkegaard would say: "Exactly!"

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  59. Anonymous4:12 PM

    it isn't religion we hate, or, better put, loathe/despise/detest, it's the sanctimonious, hypocritical pratts who would have it shoved down our throats...

    I'd like to believe that, but seems to me some commenters here went ballistic purely over the topic of religion and not over what I wrote.

    I suspect most of these people have a knee-jerk hatred religion because of experience with religion or nasty religious people, which I fully understand. Even so, it's still a knee-jerk hatred of religion, and as such, it's bigotry.

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  60. barbara ob: There's no historical evidence that the Buddha ever existed.

    This is not true. While there's little evidence, that's not the same thing as no evidence.

    barabara: Literalness is a bugaboo common to monotheism, but is an aberration in the context of all the world's religions taken together.

    What an over-generalization! Many early interpreters of the Bible saw it as allegory. But what you say about the historical aspect as of primary import for the Abrahamic religions is paramount. You have not even begun to broach the issue of why this is important but simply dismiss out of hand.

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  61. disenchanted dave: many atheists (including myself at times) see sane religious people as ticking time bombs--you never know when they might go off. I think that most religious people have accepted enough assumptions that fundamentalism becomes pretty irrefutable, and they can only remain sane and reasonable people by keeping their religious beliefs separate from their everyday ones, and by cherrypicking when appropriate (note: "most"≠"all"). Given the assumptions I think most religious people have, I don't think they can really justify either of those practices.

    You and Jesse Ventura related? LOL this is so far beyond any rational basis that I find it almost impossible to believe where to begin in showing the inanity of your remarks.

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  62. Anonymous4:39 PM

    "I'd like to see a form of Christianity that is not susceptible to dogma..."

    The tendency toward hewing rigidly to dogma is innate in the human mind...no philosophy or system of ideas or relgious faith can prevent some among its followers from becoming dogmatic.

    It seems to me that part of the point of Buddhism, about which I know little, is specifically to create a way of being free of dogma, hence the absurdist koans, meant to shock people from their rote ways of reacting (rather than thinking).

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  63. Anonymous4:39 PM

    What is Christianity? It's a story. People who tell different versions of the story are fighting to get their version accepted as The One.

    Which is true? The facts behind the stories have long since been lost. There is no way to decide. Liberals and authoritarians will pick a version on the basis of their general approach to life. Tradition is just received opinion, opinion backed by authority.

    The BuzzFlash website had an interview last week with Michelle Goldberg, who had this comment that seems relevant here:

    [quote] One of the things Hannah Arendt talks about is the way totalitarian movements construct an entire parallel reality, and then insist that that reality be substituted for the actual reality. You see this with everything from what’s going on in the science class, to the construction of foreign policy, to the promotion of abstinence education to the kind of fictitious numbers that are given for the Bush tax cuts. It’s something quite new in American politics – this idea almost of radical relativism – the idea that truth is determined by the person who has the power to impose it.

    . . . Technology has also allowed for the creation of an entire parallel media. It used to be that most people got pretty much the same news. People had access to pretty much the same entertainment. Technology has allowed an completely fictitious [right-wing] world to become an all-encompassing bubble.[end quote]

    Calling Christianity a story doesn't diminish it. Human minds exist in story like fish exist in water. Language is a story. Any noun and verb is a short story. What we've learned in the age of science is to check our stories against the facts.

    Our minds work by pure association; one recent book on religion and science said we are programmed to see agency everywhere, causes. This has worked pretty well: Eat a berry, get sick -- avoid such berries. Unfortunately, associations can be mistaken: Old woman squints at me, I get sick -- old woman is a witch. See the leaves move in the trees -- posit invisible spirits among us.

    Science teaches us to test our stories against evidence. Check out the berry, find toxins, label it poisonous. Check out the sickness, find a virus infection, old woman had nothing to do with it. Check out the moving leaves, discover the atmosphere, develop a theory of weather systems -- tornadoes have nothing to do with spirits.

    Religion fits into our need to find causes. Religion is also socially useful -- we need ways to come together as communities and consider our responsibilities to ourselves, our neighbors, and our environments. But tribes are prone to define themselves against the outsider. As well as discovering ourselves in our meetings, we may also demonize the outsider who seems to be threatening.

    The problem with Christianity is that it's an old story, one that predates science. When people began to check it against the facts, it didn't compute. We are not bodies animated by souls; we turn out to be organisms related to all the other organisms on the planet. Stories of heaven CANNOT be checked out. There are no FACTS available. It looks very much as if our sense of being an invisible pilot sitting at a control panel behind our eyes is an illusion; thoughts are electro-chemical processes of our bodies, and our bodies grow, die, and decay at last.

    But Christianity, and some other religions, teach adherants to privilege story over facts. Faith conditions people to accept authority and tradition instead of evidence. (Stories can be that powerful.) Liberal Christians can seem dishonest, because they want to keep the meaning, the implications of the story, while not really facing up to whether or not the story is factual.

    Intellectual religion has been playing this compartmentalization game since Darwin and the discovery of Deep Time. Fundamentalists sneer that Liberals don't really believe; Liberals defensively point to some statements in the tradition to support their stances; but No, they don't believe because no one steeped in a scientific outlook CAN believe in the flat-earth and biology-free accounts of the Bible. But the Liberals proclaim allegiance to the MEANING of the tradition, if not the letter, and it all gets down to power-plays and name-calling.

    So Christianity is dead in the scientific story-world we mostly live in -- not even Fundamentalists really BELIEVE in it; they just use it as a weapon. They willfully ignore the parts that don't suit their needs, just as their Liberal opponents do, and they take modern medicines and use modern machinery, just like everyone else does.

    Somehow, since our kind seems programmed for some sort of story about why we are all here and what we should do about it, we need to build on what seems progressive in the Jesus story (that which leads to self examination and compassion toward others, and not to drawing harsh lines between persons and communities) while submitting the new story-- and all our stories -- to the test of evidence and fact.

    The Democrats should be screaming "Evidence!" at every turn, since the Right Wing assault is almost evidence-free. And they should be giving thought to putting it all into a story as compelling to the majority as the authoritarian fantasy of the Bushes has proved to be.

    (Of course, the Bushes have not won on narrative alone, but have depended on their friends in the media to cover their dirty tricks in the 2000 and 2004 elections with stories of how we must always move on and never look back. Of course, they told different stories with the Clintons and Whitewater. But stories don't have to fit together -- they only have to be good of kind.)

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  64. Anonymous4:41 PM

    Barbara writes: Oddly, among liberals some secularists are more rigidly fundamentalist than most Christians. As we are seeing on this thread.

    I'm not really a "liberal" as that term is defined in contemporary America, but I am a secular non-theist. And as such I declare that you are exactly correct.

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  65. Anonymous4:41 PM

    maha - you are just another shrill voice and a basket-case. Shame on glenn for turning a thoughtful, provocative, open-minded forum over to you.

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  66. robert: It seems to me that part of the point of Buddhism, about which I know little, is specifically to create a way of being free of dogma, hence the absurdist koans, meant to shock people from their rote ways of reacting (rather than thinking).

    You should try to read the various religious texts of Buddhism--of which there are three main branches: hinayana, mahayana, and theravada (a variant of mahahayana). The main example of Buddhism that most Americans have is Zen, which is a minor, very small denomination within world Buddhism. If you're looking for a ritualistic religion, Tibetan (Therevada) is as ritualized as it gets.

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  67. For all the over-generalizations about science and religion, very few point out the fact that religion provides no way of life. While it's critical of much, science does not provide a way to live that accounts for the many reasons that people need to find a place in the universe.

    How many of you modernists really even understand science? You have to rely on experts whose esoteric knowledge is beyond the ken of most of us. So, you want to take their word for it? Go ahead, but most people do live in a world where they wish to experience the difference that living a life according to morals and impertaives give to their life meaning.

    They are not happy to wait for the next scientific discovery to overturn the last major scientific discovery to make their way in the world. Of course, this attitude in no way invalidates the scientific process or its methodologies; what it does show is that few if any real human beings actually can or will live a life according to those discoveries and facts that few but the initiates understand anyway.

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  68. Anonymous4:57 PM

    Anonymous at 4:39 was me. I haven't posted here before and missed the drill, though I've posted on Steve Gilliard's Newsblog and Moon Over Alabama.

    Also missed out on noting that Buddhism offers a useful filter through which to view Western Christianity, as someone pointed out shortly before I posted. Buddhism seems to have more room for experience and less Divine baggage than most other systems. It doesn't seem very progressive in Tibet or India, but it offers a fresh approach to people looking for faith in a world of science.

    Philip Pullman in his Dark Materials trilogy is on to something -- he says forget about the Kingdom of Heaven; what we need now is a Republic of Heaven.

    Onward and upward.

    Mudduck
    Queens, NYC

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  69. Absolutism is the problem, yet Bush, such a true believer, must ultimately believe that all those Iraqis he's saving are going to Hell according the religious dogma he so often adores.

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  70. Anonymous5:07 PM

    If you're looking for a ritualistic religion, Tibetan (Therevada) is as ritualized as it gets.

    A correction -- the three branches are hinayana, mahayana, and vajrayana, of which the last two are pretty much the same thing. Tibetan Buddhism can correctly be called either mahayana or vajrayana, and it is richly mystical. The rituals and other practices are tools to engage mysticism.

    The Dzogchen sect of Tibetan Buddhism is particularly close to Zen (they don't look much alike on the surface, but they are), and I understand the Dzogchen's believe they invented Zen, although Zennies think that's unlikely.

    Therevadan Buddhism of south Asia is hinayana, altough I understand they consider the word hinayana a pejorative, and I apologize to them for using it.

    That said, it is true that there are differences among the diverse Buddhist sects, and many of the larger sects in Asia place more emphasis on devotion than on mysticism.

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  71. Anonymous5:10 PM

    phd9 observes:

    "Those [nasty] parts of the psyche aren't going away anytime soon and the last time I checked, atheist vs religious was an us vs them dichotomy."

    You're right--we absolutely are stuck with the nasty bits. The question is how best to handle them. Religion doesn't work; never has and never will. Its limitations are systemic.

    You're also correct that, intellectually anyway, atheism can be a weapon. To date, though, it seems never to have become a weapon in the same way that religion repeatedly has done. That's not to say it can't. But as yet, I haven't seen atheism used as an excuse for murder, torture, and kleptocracy. I'd welcome examples to the contrary. And no, Communism isn't atheism.

    Buddhists, please google "aum shinrikyu." I know, I know. They aren't REAL Buddhists. Nor is Osama bin Laden a REAL Muslim. Nor was Torquemada a REAL Christian. And so on and so on.

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  72. Anonymous5:26 PM

    Good God. More Jesus on a ramrod. Isn't there something more important than christian sensitivities to talk about? I'm tired to death of the notion that we who have no use for it "just don't get it." It's a patriarchal religion with a death wish at its center. It's never not misused. Never. Why do the 80% feel they have to convert, force, or receive understanding from the rest of us? Having come here for information and good discussion, i'm revolted to find this crap.

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  73. Calling Christianity a story doesn't diminish it. Human minds exist in story like fish exist in water. Language is a story. Any noun and verb is a short story.

    Talk about taking what I've been trying to say all along and nailing it a single sentence! (OK-3)

    Stories are indeed the currency of thought and we humans are very susceptable to them. (How many hours does the average American watch television?)
    Creation stories have the added advantage of being to old to check against reality. Bart was here earlier asserting that "the laws of God were revealed to man by God". No one who was there at the time is here now to refute the assertion. And the fact that the story itself has survived this long adds additional plausability to it in the minds of believers. Was there a burning bush that told Moses what to do? I doubt it. Did Moses tell his followers there was and thus secure their co-operation? You bet! Was it a good story that helped keep the Jews cohesive and less vulnerable to their enemies? Right again.

    Whether you beleive a word of it or not, you can't deny the power of the story to shape people's attitudes and values.

    And liberals need to recognize that power and learn to use it or were going to continue to be left out in the cold!

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  74. Cynic Librarian,

    If you actually read my post before mocking it, you'd have seen that I was laying out the extreme version of the argument so that it could be identified and transcended. In the part you don't quote, I said that atheists tend to "see all [believers] with some skepticism" even though some are quite reasonable. I said "That's probably not fair of us, and it does cause unnecessary problems." My solution was not eliminating religion; I said that "I'd like to see a form of Christianity that is not susceptible to dogma," and that the kind of "rational spirituality O'Brien describes" sounds good to me.

    Would Jesse Ventura write this?

    "I'd be thrilled to see some kind of mutual detente where the kind of Christians O'Brien is talking about demonstrate their rationality and we secularists begin to trust them more. I think it has to come from both sides."

    Do you think that aspiring for detente is "inane," or would you like to retract your remarks?

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  75. Anonymous5:45 PM

    Barbara... I'd like to believe that, but seems to me some commenters here went ballistic purely over the topic of religion and not over what I wrote.

    I suspect most of these people have a knee-jerk hatred religion because of experience with religion or nasty religious people, which I fully understand. Even so, it's still a knee-jerk hatred of religion, and as such, it's bigotry.


    Religion and spirituality are not mutually inclusive. Bart is an excellent example of that. Scientology is a religion according to some.

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  76. Anonymous5:46 PM

    barbara o'b: "Even so, it's still a knee-jerk hatred of religion, and as such, it's bigotry."

    Yet another Christian claims that rejecting her sanctified myths is tantamount to persecuting her ethnic culture. Contemporary religion is nothing more than brand-name superstition subsidized with a non-profit tax status. It deserves no more respect than any other corporate franchise. My own personal beliefs are founded on the conviction that Mary Kay Cosmetics make me look 20 years younger.

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  77. Welcome, Barbara.

    I enjoy your blog, and unlike that troll that seems to have followed you here, I enjoyed this post.

    It is interesting to observe our ubiquitous conservative troll dismiss the religion of all liberals, claiming that the right-wing has a monopoly on Christianity because they believe in “absolute truth” and ridicules “cafeteria Catholics” for how they apply their religion.

    One interesting development of right-wing religion is how blatantly it has absorbed materialism into its tenets, the more “stuff” you have the better, the closer to Jesus you are, and you’ve been rewarded for virtue. These ideas are of course ignoring what Jesus actually said on this topic, so they are engaging in exactly what they accuse liberals of – picking and choosing what they want from religious tradition.

    The same is true of many of our hate groups which have used Christianity as a religious foundation to justify their racism and hate. There is little of the “love thy neighbor” in their righteous rants – indeed, quite the opposite of how Jesus admonished us to act.

    There are numerous examples of right-wing Christians applying very selectively the teachings that they want to promote, and blithely ignoring those which they find inconvenient and incompatible with their right-wing views. Christians were taught to be good stewards of nature. “Take it and rape it” was espoused by devout Christian Ann Coulter, not Jesus.

    The most obvious one is the Golden Rule ("Do to others as you would have them do to you."), which Karen Armstrong points out is an idea that pre-dates Christianity, and is the one common theme of all religions.

    Unfortunately, that is the one rule that seems to be assiduously ignored by many of those who inhabit the universe of what is known as the “religious right”

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  78. Anonymous5:51 PM

    Many early interpreters of the Bible saw it as allegory. But what you say about the historical aspect as of primary import for the Abrahamic religions is paramount. You have not even begun to broach the issue of why this is important but simply dismiss out of hand.

    It is very important to some but not as universally important to ALL Christians as you seem to think. And I'm not here to reconcile the doctrinal problems of Abrahamic religions.

    My point is that there is more to religion than believing in dogmas or even believing in God, and that "liberal Christian" doesn't have to be an oxymoron. There is a strong tradition of liberal Christianity in America -- Reinhold Niebuhr comes to mind. Just because it's been pretty tepid lately doesn't mean it never existed.

    I'm arguing that you don't have to run screaming from religious people just because they are religious. It is possible to be deeply religious and rational at the same time. And one can be deeply religious without feeling compelled to assimilate others into the religion Borg Collective.

    I grew up in the Bible Belt in the 1950s, so I know full well how, um, assimilated people can get. And, frankly, I think the fundies have gotten worse since then. As I said, they've gone past the nuisance level and are becoming increasingly dangerous. I'm not sure what can be done to push them back.

    However, marginalizing liberal Christians or attemtping to purge the taint of religion from liberalism seems counter-productive, as well as un-liberal.

    I say chill out and don't worry about religious people until they tell you you're going to hell if you don't accept JEEzus, at which time I suggest you slap your hand on your wallet and walk away.

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  79. Anonymous5:57 PM

    zack -- Thank you. What's fascinating to me are the number of commenters who assume I am a Christian even though I explicitly said I wasn't.

    That's how bigotry works. Those persons saw the word "religion" and filled in all the blanks with their own preconceptions.

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  80. Anonymous6:04 PM

    Seidman... [E]ven if the Religious Left has developed a healthier and somewhat more liberal understanding of human society based on compassion, interconnectedness, fairness, and justice, it is just as sure that they did not base these views on actual scripture. They merely attempt to make scripture fit their liberal beliefs, because the Bible is anything but liberal. I call this buffet religiosity--cherry-picking the parts of scripture that conform to their worldview, and discarding the ones that don’t. (How, exactly, one can justify cherry-picking the words of God, is beyond me.)

    Thomas Jefferson is a cherry-picker. From Wiki... many links to be found at the entry there.

    The Jefferson Bible, or The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth as it is formally titled, was an attempt by Thomas Jefferson to glean the teachings of Jesus from the Christian Gospels. Jefferson wished to extract the doctrine of Jesus by removing sections of the New Testament containing supernatural aspects as well as perceived misinterpretations he believed had been added by the Four Evangelists.

    Intent and Initial Attempt
    Prior to the "Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth," Jefferson had made an earlier abstraction of the words of Jesus entitled "The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth," the purpose of which he mentions in a letter to John Adams dated 13 October, 1813:

    "In extracting the pure principles which he taught, we should have to strip off the artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms, as instruments of riches and power to themselves. We must dismiss the Platonists and Plotinists, the Stagyrites and Gamalielites, the Eclectics, the Gnostics and Scholastics, their essences and emanations, their logos and demiurgos, aeons and daemons, male and female, with a long train of … or, shall I say at once, of nonsense. We must reduce our volume to the simple evangelists, select, even from them, the very words only of Jesus, paring off the amphibologisms into which they have been led, by forgetting often, or not understanding, what had fallen from him, by giving their own misconceptions as his dicta, and expressing unintelligibly for others what they had not understood themselves. There will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man. I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill." [1]

    Jefferson frequently expressed discontentment with this earlier version, however. "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" represents the fulfillment of his desire to produce a more carefully assembled edition.

    Content
    Jefferson arranges selected verses from the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in chronological order, mingling excerpts from one next to those of another in an attempt to unite them in a single narrative. Thus he begins with Luke 2 and Luke 3, then follows with Mark 1 and Matthew 3. He provides a record of which verses he selected and of the order in which he arranged them in his "Table of the Texts from the Evangelists employed in this Narrative and of the order of their arrangement."

    Miracles and references to the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus are notably absent from the Jefferson Bible. The Bible begins with an account of Jesus's birth without references to angels, genealogy, or prophecy. The work ends with the words: "Now, in the place where he was crucified, there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. There laid they Jesus. And rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed." There is no mention of the resurrection.


    Purpose and Use
    After completion of the "Life and Morals", Jefferson shared it with a number of friends, but he never allowed it to be published during his lifetime. His reluctance appears to be based upon his conviction that religion was a private matter as well as his desire to avoid slander and criticism.

    The book was first published in 1903 for the United States Congress. For many years copies were given to new members of Congress. The text is now freely available on the Internet since it is in the public domain.


    Slander and criticism!? Shocking!


    How can Christian dogma be reconciled with rational thought?


    Ms. O'Brien may find Pierre Teilhard de Chardin has already been there and done that. Google him.

    As to Christian mysticism... Thomas Merton. I'd put links, but google and leave it to God... or chance.

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  81. Anonymous6:07 PM

    Best philosophical statement of intent ever:

    "Orthodoxy is the only heresy."

    Rev. Ivan Stang, Church of the SubGenius

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  82. Anonymous6:07 PM

    Buddhists, please google "aum shinrikyu." I know, I know. They aren't REAL Buddhists. Nor is Osama bin Laden a REAL Muslim. Nor was Torquemada a REAL Christian. And so on and so on.

    Believe me, I can tell you even more stories about Buddhism gone bad. It happens. Anything humans get involved with can be screwed up. This is not limited to religion. If we tossed out every aspect of human civilization that somebody, somewhere, screwed up, there wouldn't be much left, would there?

    People who believe THEIR (fill in blank -- religion, ideology, party, whatever) is always perfect are, by definition, whackjobs. Beware of all whackjobs.

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  83. Anonymous6:11 PM

    How can Christian dogma be reconciled with rational thought?


    Ms. O'Brien may find Pierre Teilhard de Chardin has already been there and done that. Google him.


    "How can Christian dogma be reconciled with rational thought?" was a rhetorical question. But thanks for helping to strengthen my point.

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  84. Anonymous6:17 PM

    Barbara O'B. said...
    Buddhists, please google "aum shinrikyu." I know, I know. They aren't REAL Buddhists. Nor is Osama bin Laden a REAL Muslim. Nor was Torquemada a REAL Christian. And so on and so on.

    Believe me, I can tell you even more stories about Buddhism gone bad. It happens. Anything humans get involved with can be screwed up. This is not limited to religion. If we tossed out every aspect of human civilization that somebody, somewhere, screwed up, there wouldn't be much left, would there?

    People who believe THEIR (fill in blank -- religion, ideology, party, whatever) is always perfect are, by definition, whackjobs. Beware of all whackjobs.


    I like Dean Worbois' take on it all. He is a native American so his culture and religion was wiped out by white culture and Christian religion. He cites the founders thoughts on religion, particularly Christianity... this is Jefferson:

    "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

    Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

    The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."

    Dean Worbois:

    These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

    Among those who confuse Christianity with the founding of America, the rise of conservative Baptists is one of the more interesting developments. The Baptists believed God's authority came from the people, not the priesthood, and they had been persecuted for this belief. It was they—the Baptists—who were instrumental in securing the separation of church and state. They knew you can not have a "one-way wall" that lets religion into government but that does not let it out. They knew no religion is capable of handling political power without becoming corrupted by it. And, perhaps, they knew it was Christ himself who first proposed the separation of church and state: Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto the Lord that which is the Lord's.

    In the last five years the Baptists have been taken over by a fundamentalist faction that insists authority comes from the Bible and that the individual must accept the interpretation of the Bible from a higher authority. These usurpers of the Baptist faith are those who insist they should meddle in the affairs of the government and it is they who insist the government should meddle in the beliefs of individuals.

    The price of Liberty is constant vigilance. Religious fundamentalism and zealous patriotism have always been the forces which require the greatest attention.

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  85. Anonymous6:27 PM

    "How can Christian dogma be reconciled with rational thought?" was a rhetorical question.

    Well yeah, it can't. But he (a Jesuit) was one of the many who have tried to make that point (and usually get burned at the stake or put under house arrest, like Galileo). His teachings are interesting and I felt he should be thrown into the mix.


    In his posthumously published book, The Phenomenon of Man, Teilhard sets forth a sweeping account of the unfolding of the material cosmos in the past up to and including the development of the noosphere in the present and including his vision of the Omega Point in the future.

    Teilhard de Chardin is the proponent of orthogenesis, the idea that evolution occurs in a directional, goal driven way. This is often viewed as a teleological view of evolution. This still would not be the same as teleological implications of intelligent design. It does not deny the capacity of evolutionary processes to explain complexity. To Teilhard, evolution unfolded from cell to organism to planet to solar system and whole-universe (see Gaia theory).

    Controversies about his line of thought centre on the question of whether or not the mission started by Christ ended with the crucifixion, or is it up to mankind to continue it throughout the evolutionary process. In turn, this demands to know whether or not the key to human salvation is the mediation of the Catholic Church and its sacraments or the actions undertaken by mankind in moving towards the Omega point and so realising the actual Christogenesis. Teilhard said "A religion which is supposed to be inferior to our ideal as mankind, whatever the miracles surrounding it, is a LOST RELIGION. And, again, having to choose between heaven and heart, between God and Mankind, in both cases Teilhard chose the second.

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  86. Anonymous,
    "barbara o'b" (as you call her) is right to describe "a knee-jerk hatred of religion," or at the very least a knee-jerk hatred of religious people as "bigotry." I've experienced it, and I can assure you it is. I'm not proud of it.

    Incidentally, she said at least once or twice in her post that she's not a Christian, so she's clearly not "[y]et another Christian claim[ing] that rejecting her sanctified myths is tantamount to persecuting her ethnic culture." Incidentally, she's not talking about rejecting myths, she's talking about scornful disdain and hatred that I described and others demonstrated earlier in this thread.

    You say that "[c]ontemporary religion is nothing more than brand-name superstition subsidized with a non-profit tax status. It deserves no more respect than any other corporate franchise." In many cases (e.g. scientology and the churches involved in "Justice Sunday"), you're pretty clearly right. In other cases, I'm much less sure. Besides, even if religion is just another franchise, some franchises are better than others. I try to treat them accordingly. Do you?

    Based on your snide and factually uninformed post, I really think you should ask yourself that question.

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  87. barbara: It is very important to some but not as universally important to ALL Christians as you seem to think.

    Please provide examples.

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  88. disenchanted: "I'd be thrilled to see some kind of mutual detente where the kind of Christians O'Brien is talking about demonstrate their rationality and we secularists begin to trust them more. I think it has to come from both sides."

    Many Christians are secularists, so I am not sure that you speak for the entire group. As far as demonstrating rationality--hmmm, let's see, Augustine, Barth, Aquinas, et al. You can find just about as many "rational" Christians as you like--as they say, where there's a will, there's a way.

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  89. barabara: The rituals and other practices are tools to engage mysticism.

    Much like catholicism, I think, by which I mean western and eastern rites.

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  90. Anonymous6:59 PM

    Lovely post, thank you very much.

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  91. barabara: My point is that there is more to religion than believing in dogmas or even believing in God, and that "liberal Christian" doesn't have to be an oxymoron. There is a strong tradition of liberal Christianity in America -- Reinhold Niebuhr comes to mind. Just because it's been pretty tepid lately doesn't mean it never existed.

    Your comments are certainly refreshing and provide some measure of moderation into the debate. That it should be necessary to even talk about religion and liberalism as though one were anathema to the other is a red herring. There are numerous Christian liberals, not to mention Marxits etc. My own dispositions lie with the Liberation Theologians of SA, but that's just me. The problem with any religious expression--ANY--in my eyes, is when it becomes an institution; then you get, as someone else remarked, the insider/outsider mentality.

    As much as I admire many liberal and conservative/fundamentalist Christians, I think their call to community simply doesn;t work anymore in the present age, where such claims to authority simply do not resonate anymore.

    I am afraid we will have to go through much fear and trembling--clashes of fundamentalisms on all sides--before something new and beautiful arises. When this happens, all religions will lie decimated and hollow in the ruins.

    That's my apocalyptic sermon for the day!

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  92. What gets left out in discussions like this is what motivates a fundamentalist to become as they are. I do not think that taking a patronizing, snobbish attitude about being more rational is any more a rational answer than the diatribes I might get from a fundie.

    The fundamentalists are serious folks who perceive very serious rpoblems in the world. Whether they feel themselves besieged by modernist pretentions while seeing those pretenstions used to destroy what's good and cherished in life, or whether one can reduce the argument to one of loss of self-identity, the issues are real and important that fundamentalists raise.

    People need stability in their lives so they can live and feel ehtically alive. What the modern era has done is to deprive people of any lasting framework within which to find that type of life which will enable them to feel they are acting as good people while also being to pass on to their loved ones a way of life that will not trashed after they die.

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  93. barabara: A correction -- the three branches are hinayana, mahayana, and vajrayana, of which the last two are pretty much the same thing.

    I always fuck up on that. And varayana is one of faves--I love how they do sex and religion!

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  94. To those that reflexively and aggressively reject any religion:

    I understand your position, and sometimes I'm even sympathetic to it. I know a lot of good people that have been hurt and/or horrified by religion. People that have been sexually assaulted by their religious role models. People that have been told to participate in genocide when God asks them to and that Hitler, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, and other terrible figures are only alive because people had too much false compassion to kill these figures' ancestors like God asked. People that have been sexually mutilated because of their parents' beliefs. People whose families have been split up permanently because of interfaith marriage. People whose family members have been driven to neoNazism by their purported love of Christ. And I've read about what Inquisitions and Crusades can do to people. I'm well aware that public opinion of us (atheists, secular humanists, et al.) is extremely low. So I'm no stranger to the horrors religion can unleash.

    Still, it's probably unfair of us to ask all religious people to prove that their faith won't make them do those things before we grant them our trust. It's certainly unfair of us to be as bigoted as some of the commenters in this thread apparently are. Strong, moral people will find a way to do good deeds even if their preacher tells them not to. And religion can bring about positive changes that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. It's important for us to remember the Gandhis, the Martin Luther Kings, and so on. Not just the Fred Phelpses and Osama bin Ladens.

    We have nothing to lose by keeping our minds open. We should respect other people unless they give us a good reason not to. I submit that metaphysical beliefs--even ones we find ridiculous--are unimportant in that regard. If we're right that there is no God, then beliefs (faith-based or otherwise) don't matter. Only actions do. Ms. O'Brien hasn't given us any reason to think she would act unethically. We should treat her with respect.

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  95. Anonymous7:22 PM

    I think a tendency to fundamentalism of belief--whether it be in religion or any other philosophy--is inherent in at least a percentage of humans, and potential in most. It is a psychological mechanism, and it seems that fundamentalists not only prefer, but demand certainty. Ambiguity is anathema to the fundamentalist...it is unnerving to them that there may be not merely complexities, but unknowns...areas of life not amenable to explanation.

    One sees that some people require stories they read or movies they see to have tidy endings where all loose ends are tied up and explanations are carefully spelled out...if the story does not provide this required spelling out, they are disconcerted, unsatisfied, perplexed. Others prefer, or can at least enjoy equally, stories where some semblance of the complexities of life are presented, and character motivations and plot resolutions are left, to greater or lesser degree, indeterminate.

    Fundamentalism as a syndrome has nothing to with the particular faith or philosophy, but with the mind of the adherent.

    "Orthodoxy is the only heresy"
    --Stang

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  96. Anonymous7:33 PM

    very very good. Many thanks

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  97. Cynic Librarian:

    Atheists are the single most distrusted minority in this country. We take a lot of shit.

    I've taken several opportunities here to acknowledge big problems on "my side" in line here and to urge people that share my beliefs to treat religious people with more respect. You, however, have been hostile and dismissive, totally unwilling to acknowledge any problems Christians cause and taking every opportunity to ridicule our concerns. When we're concerned about dogma and hostility in a nation that hates us more than any other group, naming a few dead philosophers and making snarky references to Jesse Ventura doesn't do much to distinguish you from James Dobson in our minds.

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  98. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  99. disenchanted: You, however, have been hostile and dismissive, totally unwilling to acknowledge any problems Christians cause and taking every opportunity to ridicule our concerns.

    I haven't even addressed the issue of the many many many many many problems with what I call Xtianity. Hel,, I'm the first one to say it. In fact, I agree with Simone Weil, who once said (I paraphrase) that Christians have more to learn from many atheists than they do from Xtians.

    I also know that atheists are the most misunderstood, disliked individuals in Amerika. I always find this animosity very strange, since I've always sought out and learned much from them--living and dead.

    I haven't addressed the faults of religion/Xtianity because I accept it as a given; something that Barbara took assumed as well. What I have argued in my posting to you is that your assumption that religion/Christianity has no rational apologists is simply misinformed.

    What I have noted in your postings is that you not only assume that there are no rational religionists but that you leave unasked the central question: what criterion of "reason" are you using? To assume, as many rationalists do, that there's only one form of reason or that reason is somehow beyond question or historical accretions is irrational in my view.

    The very notion of what constitutes reason must itself be asked and answered--or at least stated in what form of reason you advocate.

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  100. You're right. I did cross the line when I said your position was "so far beyond any rational basis that I find it almost impossible to believe where to begin in showing the inanity of your remarks."

    Oh, wait. I didn't say that. You did.

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  101. Anonymous8:15 PM

    one of a hundred anonymouses:

    We are not bodies animated by souls

    I'm sure glad you settled that question once and for all.

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  102. Thanks for the deft treatment of an important topic. I'm not entirely convinced that literalism is less a problem for non-Christians, or polytheists, but it's a small point. Well done and thanks again.

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  103. Anonymous8:30 PM

    "Anything humans get involved with can be screwed up. This is not limited to religion."

    Religion seems to be especially prone to, if not actually adapted for, this kind of screwing up. That is my objection to it.

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  104. Anonymous8:33 PM

    barabara ob: In any event, I am reasonably certain that most non-fundamentalist Christians are opposed to genocide under any circumstance.

    the cynic librarian: I believe that many if not most fundamentalist Xtians are also against genocide.

    I'd be interested in reading any Christian, or Jewish, condemnations of the Caananite genocide. As far as I know both fundamentalist and non-fundamentalist Protestants in American grow up siging a song celebrating it, "Joshua fought the Battle of Jericho, ...."

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  105. Ray:

    I can't speak for everyone, but my classmates and I were among the people I mentioned above that were "told to participate in genocide when God asks them to and that Hitler, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, and other terrible figures are only alive because people had too much false compassion to kill these figures' ancestors like God asked." That was referring specifically to the Amalekites; God told King Saul to kill all of them and destroy their livestock etc. He didn't quite finish the job, and so God drove him insane, killed his children, and divided his kingdom. And, if my teachers are to be believed, it also led to the Holocaust and 9/11.

    I can think of at least two or three teachers I talked to about it; none of them were apologetic about it. It was God's will. I don't remember if they all bought into the "ancestor of Hitler" argument, but I know that at least one did.

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  106. Uh, I should have proofread. I assume this didn't cause any confusion, but it can't hurt to fix it.

    "terrible figures are only alive" should read: "terrible figures were only born."

    Hitler and some of the other figures they mentioned aren't alive.

    ReplyDelete
  107. HWSNBN sez:

    Christianity, Islam and Judaism are about the voluntary submission of humans to the laws of God.

    Do as you please. But I note that this is not true of the other major world religion, Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, which is why it's growing far faster than any other religion in the world right now.

    No, secularism replaces the laws of God with whatever the individual wants to believe.

    HWSNBN is lying again. Hey troll: Go check out those commandments of yours.

    If you believe in God and believe in absolute truth as I do, then neither secularism nor "Liberal Christianity" can work for you.

    One problem for the troll HWSNBN here: He's be demonstrated on more than one occasion to be wrong. So pardon me if I don't take his word (or for that matter the word of anyone that claims to know "God's laws") for the truth of the matter as to what "God's laws" are. Clearly, there's plenty of differnce of opinion, so many -- if not all -- that claim they know this kind of stuff are wrong, including some supposedly pretty smart people (and that latter caqtegory doesn't include HWSNBN). Look, if God wants to lay down his laws, He can come visit me, and sit a spell in front of the fireplace, and He can hash it all out with me. For Him, I could make some time, I suppose. Everyone else can just go take a long walk on a short dock if they're going to claim they speak for the Big Guy; I have seen no evidence they do any such thing.

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  108. HWSNBN:

    There are undoubtedly mistakes in the religious texts written by fallible humans in all faiths. However, mistakes are not a license to reject all religious texts as "myths" or "allegories."

    "Licenses? We doan need no steenking licenses...."

    Seriously, since when do I need a licence to think? Maybe under the world HWSNBN envisions, I might, but they couldn't enforce it if they tried.

    Cheers,

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  109. HWSNBN:

    Hell has been described simply as a place without God. To reject the truth means that you will be without guideposts and unable to reach God.

    What a pile'o'crap. Tell it to someone who gives a damn. Oh, yeah, forgot, He doesn't exist. ;-)

    Cheers,

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  110. HWSNBN:

    No, secularism replaces the laws of God with whatever the individual wants to believe. You can fashion that as "reason," but reason is not required under secularism.

    To tell the truth, there's far less place for reason in religious thought.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  111. Anonymous8:56 PM

    One last note to "Bart":

    Your assertion "Fundamentalists by definition apply their religious tradition as written - no addition or subtraction" invites challenge.

    Fundamentalists -- or at least Fundamentalist Christians -- do no such thing. The Bible _requires_ interpretation from the first chapters of the first book -- in which you will find two mutually exclusive accounts of the Creation story -- to the last chapters of the last book.

    You may _believe_ that the doctrines you embrace add or subtract nothing from the sacred texts of your faith, but your believing it does not make it so.

    And no one should accept your implication that simply _asserting_ your supposed fidelity to texts should require deference from those of us whose Christian faith differs from yours.

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  112. HWSNBN:

    No, the laws of God were revealed to man by God. Humans can confirm the wisdom of God's laws through personal experience. For example, a society with intact families which follow the Ten Commandments is much likelier to be happy than one who does not.

    See what I meant about leaving reason behind.

    1). If HWSNBN's "fact" here was true, it wouldn't prove his thesis.

    2). Doubt that WSNBN has any evidence to back up his claim.

    3). Intact families maye be happier, but that hardly implicates religion. And depite HWSNBN's hallucinations, the God of Moses didn't invent the tem commandments, and Jesus didn't patent them. I call them "the 3 1/2 commandments, the 2 1/2 good ideas, and the 4 manifestation of a vengeful and vain deity". The 3 1/2 commandments are pretty much common to all religions (and this is hardly surprising; they're just basic rules needed for a relatively civil society. Don't know of a single family, though, who's better off for not having a crucifix on their dashboard. Oh wait, many Christians do have such (or saints, ot such things). And the stained glass ... wonderful stained glass. Yes it's very pretty ... even inspiring ... but doesn't it violate the second commandment? The Eastern Ortodox Church thinks so, as do the Muslims and Jews....

    Cheers,

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  113. Glenn Greenwald provides a very special perch from which BoB* can criticize not just Christianity, but those who eschew religion. The Christians (unless they're liberal!) are just not sufficiently down with the tie dye and mantra set for her standards.

    BoB laments on her her own blog that everybody in the comments section here responded not because they read her post, but because anybody who disagrees with her is a bigot who just goes all Danger, Will Robinson!" when they encounter the word religion.

    Clearly, nobody ever rejected religion while giving the topic even a second's thought, as it never gets discussed all that much in America. Apostasy schmostasy.

    I'm just trying to figure out the strategery here.

    This might be yet another trial balloon to find if we can lure to the left any moderates among those choking on Bush's backwash who might not miss hating teh gay, so long as the Democrats' Big Tent excludes evil secular humanist atheists.

    In the words of Alan Watts, upon accidentally encountering D. T. Suzuki and being greeted with, "Ah, Mr. Watts! I understand you know a great deal about Zen Buddhism!"

    "Know. Nothing."

    *if we can convince BoB to pronounce her initials backwards, will she vanish back to The Fifth Dimension in her beautiful balloon?

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous9:52 PM

    This post is a rehash of GOP talking points in stealth mode and is not suited to this blog
    How about a post on Liberal hatred America or Liberal partying' it up with the terrorists sentiments?

    Liberals do not hate God or faith. Power grabbing masqueraded as religion, religious hustling, holier than thou'ism and rank hypocrisy are what Liberals take exception with. The manipulation of that Liberal position by GOP crap mills is in remarkable harmony with the cant of your post.


    You missed gun grabbing my dear lady...shame on you!!!

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  115. Anonymous10:52 PM

    I don't normally get over to this blog, but I thought this was a fine post. Sadly, when one thinks of American religion these days, what you see are the nut-jobs who are against Evolution, dislike science, want to eliminate contraception, etc.

    This topic has come home to roost at my house of late. Both my wife and myself were raised in church families, but as we were married several years, drifted away for a variety of reasons. Primarly we disliked being looked down on by fellow congregants who thought we were less "devout" than the norm, as we were late in having kids.

    Having been married for nearly 20 years, and with a teenage daughter, she has found herself questing for a belief system, but out of hand has rejected almost all typical religions as being too judgemental. In lieu of traditional beliefs, she's headed off thinking about wicca and other pagan belief systems. While I would like to provide alternatives to her, and am actively working to do so, I am constantly disheartened by the judgementalism of so many "religious" people in the community.

    As to Barbara's post, I think it encapsulates much of what is wrong in our current religious environment. Too many have substituted judgements of others for what really matters, which is the development and refinement of personal character. It's a pity so many of the Pat Robertson's of the world cannot see the impact of their activities on the faith they profess to love so much.

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  116. Anonymous11:00 PM

    Richard offers piffle about Barbara: The manipulation of that Liberal position by GOP crap mills is in remarkable harmony with the cant of your post.

    And others have gone on narrow-minded and frankly ignorant rants, lamenting that Glenn Greenwald turned over his blog to such a silly little girl as Barbara O'Brien, who actually thinks the subject of religion is timely and worth discussing in terms other than sheerly demonizing it -- and she even is very well-versed in the sociology of the religion phenomenon!

    Look, all you cretins spewing at her, you should assume that Greenwald does not just "turn over his blog" to a writer unless he is quite familiar with her style, interests and general posture. Cuz yanno, Greenwald is just kinda smart like that.

    I enjoyed Barbara's post, but lacked much time to engage it. Please, Barbara, don't let the idjits dissuade you from further posting regarding whatever matters -- including religion -- you wish to post about while Glenn is on lite blog duty. I look forward to your doing so and am appalled at the behavior of some of the other commenters here.

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  117. Anonymous11:10 PM

    "I am not a Christian, but I am religious, and sometimes I find myself defending Christians from the religion haters among us lefties."

    This made me stop reading in disgust. Fuck you. I hope Glenn is embarassed at your offensive drivel.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Anonymous11:30 PM

    Tolerance obviously is both a serious and funny thing.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anonymous11:39 PM

    Great post.

    I'm all in favor of mysticism. And I've come to believe that doctrine and dogma are actually immoral.

    Unfortunately, doctrine is nearly endemic in Christianity these days. The one doctrine-free church I can think of is the Unitarian Universalists. The UCC (Congregationalists) may qualify. The Anglicans are rather low-doctrine. Apart from that, I'm drawing a blank.

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  120. Anonymous11:39 PM

    Hypatia,

    This is a quote from Barbara on her own blog:

    "I may not have as many readers as Glenn, but y'all are way smarter."

    I don't know. As I commented over there at her blog, I don't get the competitiveness of this. I agree with you -- I read the post and comments, per usual -- but I don't understand the judgemental tone she took over at her blog about the people who participate here. I thought that the majority of regulars stayed true to form and you can never tell about anonymous commenters -- unless you have access to IP addy's.

    As I noted over there -- I think her response was a little petty, but I thanked her twice -- sincerely.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous11:52 PM

    Hi bart!

    "Christianity, Islam and Judaism are about the voluntary submission of humans to the laws of God."

    Bear with me and consider this possibility for a moment:

    There is no God. The laws you are submitting to come from one of two sources:
    (1) Other men, whom you are voluntarily enslaving yourself to
    (2) Your own prejudices and self-interest, which you have not recognized on a conscious level

    In either case you are doing something grossly immoral.

    In the first case you are surrendering your moral judgement to someone, without any evidence that you should trust them. This is a recipe for becoming a killer who was "just following orders" (from God).

    In the second case, you are deluding yourself. This is a recipe for acting out the worst impulses you have (I'll kill my neighbor!), but justifying them because "God agrees".

    In contrast, secularists, and liberal Christians, and liberal Jews, and liberal Muslims, understand that they are personally responsible for their actions and for their own moral behavior. We strive to understand our impulses and where they come from. And we strive to identify what behavior is genuinely good (i.e. improves the happiness of ourselves and others overall and in the long term), and to behave that way.

    I am not kidding here. Think about this very carefully. The concept of "surrendering to God" is routinely used as an excuse to surrender your own moral judgement in favor of.... something else. Almost always something worse.

    Before you do God's will, ask yourself "How do I know this is God's will? How do I know it's not the preacher's will, or my worst impluses, or the will of some con artist who wrote a religious text hundreds of years ago, or (if you believe in the devil) Satan's will?" If you're honest and humble, you'll eventually realize that you *don't know*. You can never know.

    If you leave God out of it -- except as a name for a source of inspiration, or for that which we do not understand, or for a Jungian archetype, or something similar -- and actually focus on reality, on your own conscience, on what happens to other people when you do things -- you will find true morality, rather than the false morality of "submission to God" or of "following the Bible".

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  122. Just to make myself clear to anyone here that thinks that I'm out bashing "liberal Christians" (or Mahabarbara) here:

    I don't think it's impossible to co-exist with liberal Christians or even conservative one, or even Fundamentalists and evangelicals. One of my best friends during law scholl days was a charsimatic evangelical, and we had plenty of fine discusions, fun times, and even true friendship.

    I am more than glad to work with any such people on the things we have in common, but ... BUT:

    I ask that they accord me and my views respect, and that they deal with me honestly. I have a very strong dislike for anyone who's a fraud, a liar, a hypocrite, or a bigot, and it doesn't matter where any of that comes from or why they are what they are.

    I won't find too many "friends" at a Republican convention nor at a Rush Limbaugh bake sale. It's not their religion that is the problem; they're free to hold whatever views they want. JUST DON"T TRY AND IMPOSE IT ON ME!!! While this tends to be the haibt of those in certain religions (and in fact is required behaviour in some), believe me, I don't neet their "salvation" ... and if I did, I'd ask for it. My charismatic friend had the understanding (and I'd say, in a way, perhaps even the proper Christian perspective) to leave me alone on this ... and we got along fine.

    Now here's HWSNBN once again speading the slanderous crapola that seculars and atheists have no morals and do just as they please. Strangely enough, I understand where his religious views come from (misguided though I think they are), but he simply has no idea as to mine, and seems to want to tell me what I think (and "wrongly", I might add, from his perspective). That's really the ultimate insult. When that's the situation, there is no more discussion ... and I don't think that politeness pertains any longer.

    Mahabarbara doesn't do that, and though some of her views may differ from mine, she has my respect. Not so HWSNBN.

    Cheers,

    ReplyDelete
  123. Anonymous12:01 AM

    Bart wrote:

    "reason is not required under secularism."

    Technically, no. However, I've met very few secularists who aren't rationalists.

    Many forms of religious belief, on the other hand, *prohibit* reason. Liberal Christianity doesn't. Biblical liberalism quite clearly does, for reasons too complete to go into in detail, but starting with the massive internal inconsistencies in the Bible. Catholic doctrine also prohibits use of human reason in certain crucial moral areas. "Submission to God" is in fact construed to require abandonment of reason in most fundamentalist churches.

    So, you are tarring secularism with a sin -- lack of reason -- which is in fact peculiarly promoted and exalted in right-wing Christianity. I think you need to use your *reason* and start looking at your Christianity in the mirror.

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  124. Anonymous12:05 AM

    "Bart" wrote:

    "For example, a society with intact families which follow the Ten Commandments is much likelier to be happy than one who does not."

    Absolutely dead 100% false. Get a study or shut up.

    Scandinavia: Most people ignore most of the Ten Commandments, and certainly the First (highest rate of non-belief in God in the world, etc.).

    Happiness: consistently highest in Scandinavia, of anywhere in the world, whenever it's studied.

    Please consider joining the reality-based community.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Anonymous12:11 AM

    Daphne writes: I thought that the majority of regulars stayed true to form and you can never tell about anonymous commenters -- unless you have access to IP addy's.

    True, and Barbara has gotten numerous intelligent and interesting responses here. Certainly it is hard to understand why she would disparage the gnereal intellectual capacities of commenters here based on this thread; my objection was merely to the few who reacted so crudely and even with paranoia that she was sending up some GOP talking points.

    Barbara: one thing to understand about this blog, is that there are one or more "anonymous" commenters who reliably spit out deranged vitriol, and so if particular nastiness and/or unreasonableness has not even a cyber-handle attached to it, I would suggest filtering it out and totally ignoring such a voice(s). Do that, and you'll find that the individuals not respectfully engaging you dwindle to a tiny minority.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Anonymous12:12 AM

    bart wrote:

    "Fundamentalists by definition apply their religious tradition as written - no addition or subtraction."

    Then all Christian fundamentalists are simply hypocrites. The amount of self-contradiction in the Bible and in Christian tradition is prodigious and well-documented.

    In actual fact, fundamentalist preachers pick their favorite bits of the Bible, call those "literal", and call the bits they don't like "metaphorical" or "obsolete". And then they claim, like you, that they are
    performing "no addition or subtraction".

    Tell me, should homosexuality be prohibited? Should wearing fabric made of mixed fibers be prohibited? These two things are treated exactly the same way in Leviticus -- and in the New Testament (where both are ignored entirely) -- but I've never found a fundamentalist Christian who treated them the same way.

    Liberal Christians, in contrast, are honest.

    Please, get a clue.

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  127. Anonymous12:14 AM

    Let's see whose commenters are the smartest!

    Let's have a competition!

    I personally don't think anyone has to clarify or apologize for anything on this thread -- not even Bart. It's religion -- or lack thereof. There will always be impishness in comments that are open. I admit that I get tired of Bart and shooter -- even David, but it doesn't keep me from reading.

    Barbara, welcome. Maybe when Glenn is back, you'll drop a comment here in our inferior threads every once and a while.

    later

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  128. Anonymous12:23 AM

    Wow Hypatia, we finally agree. I thought it might happen at some point, but I guess we have Barbara to thank for it.

    Thanks for being here -- there were other times on these threads that I chimed in and hoped you would, too. This time you did, and I sincerely thank you for that.

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  129. Anonymous12:26 AM

    Bart has just descended to a status lower than Shooter, whom I am almost certain is a glibertarian agnostic or atheist. Bart is the "total wingnut package". It's about time.

    My favorite "religious quote":

    Kill them all, God will recognize his own.

    -Arnald-Amalric, Papal legate, 1208 (when asked by the Crusaders what to do with the citizens of Beziers who were a mixture of Catholics and Cathar heretics).

    And Bart thought it was the 101st Fighting Keyboard Kommandos motto...

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  130. Anonymous12:39 AM

    robert1014 wrote:
    "It is a psychological mechanism, and it seems that fundamentalists not only prefer, but demand certainty. Ambiguity is anathema to the fundamentalist...it is unnerving to them that there may be not merely complexities, but unknowns...areas of life not amenable to explanation."

    Interesting comment.

    Scientific training might help with that.

    Scientific practice *demands* the acceptance of uncertainty and ambiguity. But it also strongly supports the *quest* for certainty (which can of course never be attained, but which we can get closer and closer to).

    It's actually rather interesting: the prevailing scientific philosophy is that there *is* a definite, real, certain reality, but that we don't know what it is, and can only get approximate descriptions of it, which we must test very skeptically.

    Everything is amenable to explanation, but we don't know for sure what the explanations are yet, and shouldn't fool ourselves into believing that we do.

    The scientific attitude really provides for both the desire for certainty and the acceptance of uncertainty. In a way which few other philosophies really do, as far as I can tell.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Anonymous12:43 AM

    There are liberal religious groups which see religious traditions as a source of inspiration, allegory, etc., and find religious ritual and study to be valuable, inspirational, wisdom-enhancing, etc. -- and which do not demand particular views from their followers, and encourage people to develop a true moral sense.

    Yes there are, which is why I do not totally trash all "believers". There are many "religious" (or as I prefer to call them, more
    spiritually awake and aware) people of all beliefs. (Witherspoon Society, Sojourners and my personal favorite, The Trinity Foundation, publishers of the world's first, award winning award-winning religious satire magazine, The Wittenburg Door. These are "believers" we can all live with, and our world is better for them being here. We could use more like them. I prefer not to believe. Socrates didn't approve of it. I'd rather just not know something and say so. As a result I end up knowing more than most. I know what I don't know, and that's alot.

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  132. Anonymous12:49 AM

    It's actually rather interesting: the prevailing scientific philosophy is that there *is* a definite, real, certain reality, but that we don't know what it is, and can only get approximate descriptions of it, which we must test very skeptically.

    Plato's allegaory of the cave.

    There is very little new under the sun, or in a cave.

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  133. Anonymous2:04 AM

    Barbara, have I not thanked you enough? Gees you brought Hypatia and I together in one thread. Clearly you haven't inhabited the threads here for long.

    Again, we welcome you. We, those of us who comment here, welcome you. The anons probably followed you from your own blog. I didn't want to point that out, but as someone earlier up-thread noted -- your trolls have probably followed you here and since it is a completely open blog, you get to meet them, head on.

    Thicker skin is what I recomend. Ask Hypatia.

    I'm still in the "wow" phase of agreement -- sorry that you aren't "in" on that point Babs.

    Comment when Glenn's around and we'll all see what gets in and out, no?

    I'll say it again, even though AL and Hume may get competitive :), thank you Barbara.

    Welcome Barbara to UT.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Anonymous2:10 AM

    Let me preface this by writing that I was the valedictorian of my Sunday school class through confirmation (8th grade). In addition, I happened to be baptised a Catholic and confirmed a Presbyterian, and told by my older, Catholic brother that I would go to Hell for that; my family is incredibly supportive.

    My first reaction to this post was that it was an embarrassingly naive one, and not worth the time it took to compose. The basic premise was: golly gee, don't blame religion, blame the people who practice it, 'cause, in theory, religion is a great thing.

    Well, DUH. The same can be said about Communism. And if you take the people out of religion, well, then what is it?

    I was then going to ask where these "truly" religious voices were for the last five years?

    After reading 90% of the comments, however, and the responses Ms. O'Brien was kind enough to offer, I realize that religion, for her, is a very private thing. Religion is something to be explored for personal enlightenment, rather than something to bring about positive social change. She cares not a whit about the dichotomy regarding the acceptance of the slaughter of the Canaanites and the abhorrence of the Holocaust (that's not part of her current religious history), and anyone who questions such an inconsistency should just leave it to the "dichotomists" to reconcile it.

    So, her real complaint is that, in a Democracy, or rather a Republic, one man has stated his objection to "Religion," (as in organized religion, which is not the religion Ms. O'Brien professes to practice), and somehow this diminishes her ability to practice her version of religion.

    Talk about your WATB. The man isn't even talking about her, but she takes exception. It's the tired "WAR ON CHRISTMAS" argument. Because she's religious, no one can speak ill of religion.

    Talk about knee-jerk.

    That said, my final thought on this post is that it is an embarrassingly naive one that isn't worth the time it took to compose it.

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  135. Anonymous2:10 AM

    Is it just me or does Barbara sound a bit like David?

    Nah, it must just be me.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous2:25 AM

    Daphne it is you who sounds like David Byron. If the two of you would stop posting on this blog, maybe the comment section would be as good as Barbara's which I have never even read, but with a hate-America person like David Byron on this blog, who has no right to be here because this is a blog for patriotic Americans of all stripes and a vicious person like you, no blog could survive that, especially this one.

    ReplyDelete
  137. Anonymous2:55 AM

    Now that is spoof proper. I must say that your infection is LATE and WEAK.

    Shag off now, ya hear?

    ReplyDelete
  138. Anonymous4:30 AM

    When we value the earth
    and the air more than money,
    As we realize that we
    are all one people,
    And know that we are part
    of one great Creating,
    Then we begin to
    make real progress.

    ReplyDelete
  139. As promised, I've posted my take on the idea that the real problems with fundamentalists are things like scriptural literalism, things which are merely a "corruption" of religion and not something which liberal believers need worry about.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous12:41 PM

    Call me intolerant, but it strikes me that and adult who believes in magical beings in the sky who are concerned about or involved with the population of Earth is deluded. Whatever name you want to put on it - religiosity or Christianity or whatever - it's still silly. We would all like Daddy to take care of us forever, but that's not the reality we live with.

    Organized religion will turn this world to dust.

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  141. Anonymous1:02 PM

    I lost my religion but I found a new one. Politics.

    ReplyDelete
  142. BoB wrote:

    I do mind straw man arguments, hyperbole (such as yours), intellectual dishonest (ditto)

    Then why are you defending and rotting your brain with religion, which would consist of nothing but straw man arguments, hyperbole and intellectual dishonesty, were it not for its nearly unique capacity to melt strong minds?

    As for your remarks on bigotry:

    I suspect most of these people have a knee-jerk hatred religion because of experience with religion or nasty religious people, which I fully understand. Even so, it's still a knee-jerk hatred of religion, and as such, it's bigotry.

    And you said you didn't like straw man arguments, hyperbole or intellectual dishonesty, you nasty religous person.

    Why the knee-jerk hostility toward apostates, former believers, atheists, agnostics, and secular humanists? Was it because of experience with atheism, or nasty atheist people? Or even worse, those horrid enlightenment era deists?

    You quotemine (a creationist style of dishonesty) Jefferson where it suits you, yet you side with the equivalent of those who wore black armbands on the day of his inauguration, in protest that "an atheist would be president!" McCain speaks at Falwell's seminary and diploma mill, and Howard Dean tries to make nice with effing Pat Robertson on the 700 Club, because there is a de facto religious test for political office in this country-- scratch that, it's a test for Christianity.

    That must be why you're jumping on the political bandwagon to make "secular humanists" the target of the lefty two-minute hate, just as the rightwads have teh gay and teh brown. You're only jiving yourself with that Kozmik Debris-- you're peddling religious hatred of "the other" on behalf of the people that hate you too.

    You won't be welcome among those you defend, so long as you let them hear you singing "Paramahansa Yogananda, parlez vous" at the Last Chant Saloon and drinking Third Red Eye with all your sacred cowgirls. You're not doing yourself any favors coming on all ecumenical and syncretist, as if to say "Whom you call Indra, we call Zeus!" when the people you're pandering to figure those are all just names for Satan.

    If you've found some sacred space of your own, convincing yourself that your simulation of communion with Goodhead after enough transcendental mastication maps onto something real outside your omphallus, well, bully for you. I don't mind pretending Gould's Non Overlapping Magisteria is the order of the day so long as I have to share freeways and checkout lines with you. While my favorite Lennon tune is "Imagine" he also wrote "Whatever Gets You Through The Night." The night is large, and full of wonders. If you believe it because you bloody well feel like it to piss off the atheists, groovy. Mainline to your heart's content.

    I am under no obligation to respect any religion and am, so far, free to reject your unevidenced ill-defined cluster of associations around the word God, and your humpty-dumptying and retconning of what you want religion and faith to mean. I will, however, defend to the death your right to believe it, along with my right to mock it. You can demand my respect for your belief, but as an American, it is my responsibility to respect your right to believe, not what you believe.

    My right to reject what you believe is something you'd be stupid not to defend as well, because I've got news for you and all your friends who don't know being skyclad is a priviledge, not a rite-- your marginal little non-mainstream religion is placed in jeopardy every time you join the assault on the handful of non-believers in this country. You will be crushed by the pendulum you help to push even farther away from the Founders' vision of a wall of separation between Church and State. When you and your imaginary friends join up to take a dump on the evils of secular humanism, you're only shitting your own bed, because you and your pals the liberal Christians are every bit as far beyond the pale as I am, at this dark time at least.

    I'll believe the pendulum is headed back in the right direction the first time a president is sworn in not on a bible, but clasping a DVD of Star Wars where Han shoots first.

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  143. Anonymous2:34 PM

    I oppose intelligent design, but I endorse the book it came from.

    ReplyDelete
  144. If I'd had more time, I might have written something as pithy as what Shorter Liberal Christian said:

    I oppose intelligent design, but I endorse the book it came from.

    --but only if what is meant by opposing intelligent design is making sure that Of Pandas and People is politely reshelved in the religion section at bookstores after being misplaced in the science section, whle liberal Christians join secular humanist scientists at the local schoolboards to oppose its use as a textbook designed to displace science education.

    Because gabbling on about Teilhard de Chardin's teleology as if that were a positive example of religion smearing its peanut butter on science's chocolate while pooting on about the evils of secular humanists would be opposing intelligent design in the "not" mode.

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  145. Anonymous3:48 PM

    People tend to get upset in blogs like this one when those on the left reinforce Republican narratives. The thing about Seidman's piece, even though it is anti-Christian, is that it buys into and reinforces the narrative of Dobson, Falwell, Robertson et. al. It assumes that members of the religious right leadership who think Christianity is mainly about not having sex are the "real" Christians, whereas Christians who genuinely live Jesus' teachings (i.e., "blessed are the peacemakers", i.e. "love your enemies", i.e. "insofar as you have done it to the least of these you have done it to me") in their lives are actually sad, deluded secular liberals who are just pretending to be Christian. I don't think Seidman could have written a post that would make Dobson Falwell and Robertson happier.

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  146. Anonymous3:48 PM

    It is nice to see some tolerance for others ... Regardless of one's stance regarding religion or politics ... it is hard to tout intolerance mantras without making sure the mantras themselves are not as intolerant as the opposite position.

    A looking glass always is a good thing to have around.

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  147. In response to me, Bart says ...

    No, secularism replaces the laws of God with whatever the individual wants to believe.

    Again, what do followers of Christianity believe? What God reveals to them. Who has to analyze the revelation? Amazingly, to be cynical, religious practice tends to match up with "whatever the individual wants to believe." Few are Christians but don't "want to" be Christians.

    You can fashion that as "reason," but reason is not required under secularism.

    It surely isn't required under revealed religion, is it? But, it surely is under secularism (again, this isn't the separation of church and state secularism, which is often the end promoted), since humans have to reason "what they want" ... that is the REASON why it is the right thing. It tends not be "it just feels good."

    Thus, the secular argument I quoted that religion is incompatible with democracy, where everyone gets to express what they believe.

    Those who support secularism generally support religious freedom, in fact, arguing religion thrives more in a secular state.

    No, the laws of God were revealed to man by God. Humans can confirm the wisdom of God's laws through personal experience.

    Again, man has to understand it. If man does not, it is revealed, but not understood -- Jesus underlined this happens a lot.

    For example, a society with intact families which follow the Ten Commandments is much likelier to be happy than one who does not

    It is unclear if believing in God, not taking his name in vain, not honoring the Sabbath, and not coveting (quite American) is the necessary for happiness.

    You need better arguments if you want to be the resident dissenter.

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  148. Anonymous6:20 PM

    You quotemine (a creationist style of dishonesty) Jefferson where it suits you, yet you side with the equivalent of those who wore black armbands on the day of his inauguration, in protest that "an atheist would be president!"

    By some coincidence, I posted on the "Barbara's Religion Post" thread that I think it's a shame an atheist can't get elected to national office in this country.

    That must be why you're jumping on the political bandwagon to make "secular humanists" the target of the lefty two-minute hate,

    I don't hate secular humanists, and I don't want anyone else to hate secular humanists. I'm just asking that secular humanists not be so judgmental toward religious people who haven't done them any offense.

    You won't be welcome among those you defend, so long as you let them hear you singing "Paramahansa Yogananda, parlez vous" at the Last Chant Saloon and drinking Third Red Eye with all your sacred cowgirls.

    That's not true of all Christians, but I recognize it is true of many. I will defend them anyway, however, because I think it's the right thing to do. Their prejudice toward me is their problem.

    I don't happen to believe in God, by the way.

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  149. Anonymous9:53 PM

    Barbara,

    I have to admit that I didn't bother reading all of the comments posted, but I did read enough negativity to feel inclined toward providing you a little positive reinforcement....not that you need it. Anyway, your post was a thought provoking and I would say sometimes elegant essay, which I found very interesting. And this is coming from a "radical" liberal who many of my friends would describe as anti-religious. It has even inspired me to take a glance at your blog as well.

    thanks,

    badick

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  150. Anonymous12:46 AM

    Bart said: "No, the laws of God were revealed to man by God. Humans can confirm the wisdom of God's laws through personal experience. For example, a society with intact families which follow the Ten Commandments is much likelier to be happy than one who does not."

    This is simply not true. According to the 2005 United Nations Human Development Report, the healthiest and happiest nations in the world don't include the most Christian nation in the world, the US. The criteria for making this determination were measures like per capita income, education level, access to health care, infant mortality, women's rights, suicide rates, violent crime rates, among others. The top countries for these measures included Canada, the UK, Australia, Norway, Sweden, Japan, Denmark, Iceland - countries with extremely low levels of religious affiliation and participation. Christians are constantly lied to when they are told that Christianity makes for a better place to live. As the report makes clear, religions and/or religious teachings like the Ten Commandments are not necessary for a society to have happy, healthy, well-adjusted citizens. The worst off on the UN report were the most religious countries in the world. Religions actually make societies far less well-off.

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  151. Anonymous1:31 AM

    Give me a break... which is the bigger problem:

    Secularists, humanists and
    atheists opressing and preventing the religious from expressing their views or the oposite?

    Too many (any) can an avowed atheists, claiming morality derives from we humans do here on earth to each other, running for office... or the oposite?

    Let the religious left win some elections for progressives and then we can talk; then I'll give you a little respect. Because Lord knows the religious right (and the super rich corporations) are the problem. We little atheists, secularists, humanists (did somebody say brights) are NOT the problem.

    Let's focus on real problems... raise and enforce minimum wage; re-establish progressive taxation (fair and simplify); stop waging unjust war... all this the religious right enables... and the religious left is even more powerles than the rest of the left to do anything about.

    Religious left... go take back religious America, then I'll give you some respect.

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  152. Anonymous2:22 AM

    chicagomom said...

    "Au contraire. The premises of our theory of individuality and inherent equality were based on Protestant Christianity"

    Nope. They were based on pre-Christian Greek philosophy. Via certain European Protestant philosophers, certainly; but those philosophers always had immense trouble reconciling Christianity with their philosophy.

    It's rather unfortunate that Christians routinely claim that major philosophical concepts came out of Christianity -- when those concepts are actually from pre-Christian philosophers. It's intellectually dishonest.

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  153. chicagomom said... "Au contraire. The premises of our theory of individuality and inherent equality were based on Protestant Christianity"

    anon@2:22am: Nope. They were based on pre-Christian Greek philosophy. Via certain European Protestant philosophers, certainly; but those philosophers always had immense trouble reconciling Christianity with their philosophy.

    It all depends on what you mean by "individual." The idea of an immortal soul--which might define what it means to be an individual-- goes back to Plato, but Aristotle had many problems with that.

    The Greeks had a cosmic understanding of humans, not a historical one. That concept that individuals have histories and that the meaning of history (the world of becoming) is important--time--is something that originates in the linear Judeo-Christian notion of time.

    The Greeks saw time as circular, tied to natural rhythms. Jews and Christians see history as somehow independent of nature.

    The Protestant theologian Bultmann ascribes the turn to history as the mark of the Middle-Platonist Augustine, as can be seen in his Confessions.

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  154. Anonymous5:10 AM

    I know I'm coming late to this, and someone may have said this better than I will, but it can't be said enough. "Secular" does not equal "atheist". And no, there are no "two strands of secularism" as one commenter claims, one of which is about separation of church and state and the other about replacing religion with rationality. Atheism rejects a belief in God. Secularism is for the separation of church and state, pure and simple. It makes no claims on the validity of religious belief. There are Christian (and Jewish and Buddhist and spiritualist and...) secularists, just as there are secular atheists.

    Secularism is NOT antithetical to religion -- it is antithetical to theocracy. In fact, many folks are secular precisely because they believe that the intermingling of church and state leads to the corruption of religion rather than to the purification of the state.

    For my part I am both secular and an atheist, but the two are unrelated. As an atheist I am not hostile to religion, since Jefferson's quote should be even more applicable to atheists. If there is no God, it really does me no harm when someone persists in their error - we have no canonical imperative to evangelize on behalf of nothing. Private beliefs are private and I certainly won't hold it against anyone who chooses to believe differently from me - it just isn't that important. But when it comes to religion and the state, things get worrisome.

    Democracy is inherently public. It relies on reasoned debate and necessary compromise in the public sphere, and the "truth" that arises from this process is imperfect, flexible, and limited to those things upon which a majority can agree. Religious belief, on the other hand, is inherently private. It is rooted in a very personal, interior experience. Its "Truth" is perfection itself, omniscient and omnipresent. Public debate is largely irrelevant to the personal journey which seeks this "Truth", and the absolute nature of the "Truth" it seeks is antethetical to compromise.

    The interiority of religious belief means that there are as many variants of a particular religion as there are believers. So, the problem with introducing religion into politics (and vise versa) is that it is not always clear which form of political religion we'll get with any particular candidate. Maybe the candidate's personal religion will be a liberal variant which chooses to focus on commandments to love one's neighbors and help the poor while ignoring the less tolerant aspects of the religion. Maybe the candidate will be openly theocratic like the Islamists in the Middle East or the Dominionists here at home. But the most frightening possibility is that the candidate's personal religion will inform him that he has a duty to lie and deceive in service of his "Truth", to preach unity in prelude to entering the political sphere with a righteous sword, to preach compassion in prelude to condemning thousands to hell on earth - perhaps even to go so far as to overturn the order of national and international law, internally dividing his own country into two camps of Gog and Magog, sowing dissention among the nations and chaos in the Holy Land in order to bring the final battle and hasten the End Times.

    But that would never happen.

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  155. Anonymous2:57 PM

    Seidman clearly does not grasp the nature of Christianity in this country. But Barbara seems to have missed what may have been his main point: religious thought does not belong in the public sphere, and if we are forced to accept its presence there because the Right has forced an opening and shoved it in, then it's plainly a bad thing, on balance, even if the version of Christianity is a tolerant one. And it unAmerican.

    Talking politics in church is fine. Talking church nonsense in the agora is not, and has not been for centuries. Politics is for talking about taxes, services, laws, crime, spending, making war, making peace, etc.

    Churchies have opinions on these matters too and should express them. But which God to worship and how is not appropriate for any place but the temple.

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  156. Anonymous5:37 PM

    Couple of things (didn't read through all the comments, so someone may have covered...),
    1. Buddhism isn't rightly a religion. More like a philosophy. (Buddhism doesn't ask one to believe in a god/God, asks you to tread a middle way, etc.
    2. Hindu is a little more like religion, in that you need to believe in 'supernatural' phenomenom/beings.
    3. The only Karen Armstrong i've read was "Battle for God". I thought she had a simplistic view of fundamentalism. Superstition is a common trait of humanity, and Christianity appears to have been (as much as anything) a reaction to Roman and Jewish fundamentalism, (and Islam might have been a reaction to early Christian righteousness...), so in my mind, fundamentalism is the fall back position that believers (not students/scholars), must take when the world/universe, (God?), challenges their beliefs. Note the long and sincere battle against evolution, even though it's obvious and provable.

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  157. Anonymous12:30 PM

    I would like to add a personal note! I am the gr-grand daughter of a Baptist minister, the grand daughter of a gospel singer and the daughter of one of the most righteous woman who ever lived. I have not attended the Southern Baptist church where I have been a member sincer 1961, in 15 years. I find that my spirituality is suffering because of my inability to have a place of worship. I am appalled at the state of Christianitiy in America. I do not understand how men like Falwell, Robertson and Dobson are allowed to speak for Christians. I believe that Jesus weeps for America. Occasionally I will watch my own television pastor on Sunday. The Sunday after George Bush was ordained Prsident my minister made the comment, "Aren't you glad the Christians won the election?" I can find no church in my area where I think I would feel comfortable to worship. I am a born-again Christian and try to live my life as an honor to the Father God and his Son and heir Jesus Christ. I believe in loving one another, helping the poor and never placing myself in judgement of others. I have raised 3 wonderful children, and have 3 equally wonderful grand-children. I have lost one daughter to the Republican Party and although her brother and sister give her a hard time about it, I know she is only trying to do what I have taught her and that is to think for herself and make wise decisions. Consequently, she is a member of NARAL and also NRA. She is able to reconcile these two things and I respect that. I refuse to let that be much of an issue with me because at times I see her inner conflict and know that she feels different from her family. She and her husband who works for DOD have adopted 2 precious children from Eastern Europe and are excellent parents. "In as much as you have done to the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me". I have no choice except to stay away from the church I dearly love. I clearly believe in freedom of worship and freedom not to worship. It is essential to America today that we strive to maintain separation of church and state. It is a dangerous path. Once our state repesentative ran on a platform that a vote against him was a vote against God. He was a Minsiter. He was never voted out of office but he did die during office. Politics does not belong in the pulpit. It is wrong, it is unAmerican and it is frightening and upsetting to me. Never before in my 60 years have I truly been afraid for America. I am now!

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  158. Anonymous1:14 PM

    I don't see why you feel you need it. But enjoy!

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