Saturday, June 03, 2006

A Misstep in Bush's Quest for Historical Redemption

By Anonymous Liberal

Faced with disastrously low approval ratings, President Bush seems to have resigned himself to the hope that future generations will judge him more kindly than his contemporaries. I don't think this is a particularly realistic hope, but you can't blame a guy for trying to find a silver lining to an otherwise soul-crushing set of circumstances. Bush's most loyal apologists, and lately Bush himself, have taken to invoking the example of Harry Truman, a man who endured similarly dismal approval ratings toward the end of his presidency, but whose historical legacy has steadily improved since then. Just last week, Bush when out of his way to draw this comparison:


"By the actions he took, the institutions he built,
the alliances heforged and the doctrines he set
down, President Truman laid the foundations for
America's victory in the cold war," Mr. Bush told
the class of 2006.

Yeah, I get it. And I understand why this is a pleasing analogy for Bush. Presidents want to be judged kindly by history. This is especially true when they stand little chance of being judged kindly in the present. But here's my question: if Bush is hoping that his validation will come from future generations, why on earth is he yet again coming out in support of the Marriage Protection Amendment?

The march of history is often unpredictable. One generation's fool can be the next generation's visionary. In many respects, though, the march of history is entirely predictable. We know, for example, that future generations will enjoy technology and gadgetry that far exceeds our current technological know-how. The progress of science and technology is incremental and inexorable.

Similarly, free societies inevitably progress toward greater tolerance and greater equality. Old biases tend to die off with the people who hold them. Does anyone really doubt that gay marriage will be a fact of life in most parts of this country within a generation? In the few years since gay marriage was legalized in Massachusetts, public opinion has already shifted considerably. Polls consistently show that most younger Americas have no problem with allowing gay couples to marry. So the writing is clearly on the wall. Future generations will almost surely view the Marriage Protection Amendment (and its state counterparts) in the same light that we now view anti-miscegenation laws. Indeed, I suspect even most social conservatives realize this, which is why they are frantically trying to take advantage of popular opinion while it is still on their side.

I always marvel at this phenomenon. Why is it that each generation of social conservatives thinks that it will be the one to stop history's march? They never seem to realize the power or inevitability of the processes they're opposing.

Bush, of course, is under no such illusions, which makes his decision all the more strange. He knows the MPA won't pass. And as Steve Benen points out, he has to know that his 11th hour support of the amendment is unlikely to satisfy his fundamentalist base. And I doubt that Bush himself personally supports the MPA. So why bother endorsing it? Why publicly support a measure that future generations will overwhelming view as nothing more than a statement of ignorance and bigotry?

For someone who is so clearly hoping for historical redemption, this is certainly a counter-productive move.

UPDATE: Via Andrew Sullivan, here's what James Dobson had to say earlier this week on his radio show:

"... As you all very well know, marriage is under
vicious attack now, I think from the forces of hell itself."

Nice. No wonder Dobson and his followers are so willing to stand athwart history, yelling 'stop'. For them, the inexorable march of history = the forces of hell.

65 comments:

  1. "free societies inevitably progress toward greater tolerance and greater equality."

    I'm beginning to suspect that Bush is counting on that first part being inoperative, at least to some degree. Stolen elections, illegal detentions, the resurrection of long-discredited hate groups, corruption of the news by state propaganda, and the way reality itself seems to be subordinated to partisan ideology today indicate that he's made quite a bit of progress.

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  2. A fair point, Dave.

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  3. Thanks, a.l. Hopefully people will wake up and start pushing back soon. It's definitely not too late. Maybe the blogosphere and Glenn's book will help. I wish I could do more. My contributions to Glenn's research pool and my tiny blog seem pretty small in comparison to the kind of power the Malkinites weild.

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  4. Anonymous3:26 AM

    The bigger problem that Bush will have in the history books for publicly supporting a measure that future generations will overwhelming view as a statement of ignorance and bigotry is that it legalizes discrimination when it crosses the line from religion into Government and law

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  5. Anonymous3:28 AM

    *)*

    I think the Administration is consumed with one thing and one thing only...maintaining control of both houses of Congress in the '06 elections. If they do not, Dems will either expose a lot of illegal activity (worst case for Bush) or just prevent any more advancement of the Bush agenda (best case for Bush). Returning to your premise of Bush's historical motivation - either of these outcomes will prevent him from accomplishing the things which he believes will make him go down in history as great.

    Bush's only hope for stemming the coming backlash and retaining Rep control of Congress is to rally the base (the 30% of the country that still buys this crap). To do this, he has to support the amendment so Repubs can answer the November question of what they are doing about the social agenda they pushed in '04.

    On the other hand, Dems winning control in '06 will be a convenient out for the Adminstration, who will blame the coming collapse of their policies on Democratic undermining of their agenda "just when it was going to start showing fruit". With Rove working overtime on this message, '08 will be a very interesting election.

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  6. Anonymous3:33 AM

    *)*

    Oh yeah, one more thing. History will be so consumed with the Iraq war, the attack on the Constitution, the denial of global warming, the disastrous fiscal and taqzation policy and the utter stupidity of the Adminstration's attempt to secure our safety against terrorist attacks that The gay marriage ban won't make the short or long list of reasons Bush is viewed as a poor president. As I said, the amendment is all about maintaining control and Bush/Rove/Cheney know it.

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  7. Anonymous3:54 AM

    Anonymous said...

    "I think the Administration is consumed with one thing and one thing only...maintaining control of both houses of Congress in the '06 elections."

    Absolutely. But I don't think trying to energize the 30% base is going to do them much good. They already have that now in the polls. What they don't have is the other 2/3 of the country and I don't think they are going to get any of that back.

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  8. I wonder how many of those 30% will still support Bush once he's out of office and they no longer have to.

    I suppose it depends on whether the alliance between racists, the religious right, and the government keeps getting stronger or implodes. The dominionists are judging Bush on his long-term impact. Let's hope they're disappointed.

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  9. Anonymous4:01 AM

    *)*

    Gris lobo:

    Let's hope you are right, but I think gerrymandering, the number of seats that need to change over and the Republican grip over the mechanics of the election in key states makes it far from a foregone conclusion. I'm still amazed that Bush won in '04 with what a disaster he has been.

    It is also going to take better leadership than the very weak current leadership in the Democratic party.

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  10. Anonymous4:03 AM

    Other than low poll ratings, what makes Bush like Truman?

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  11. Anonymous4:18 AM

    Disenchanted Dave said...

    "I wonder how many of those 30% will still support Bush once he's out of office and they no longer have to."

    Virtually all of them. You're talking about the true blue faithful that couldn't be persuaded that Bush is a bad president even if he launched nukes and started WWIII tomorrow. They would still be chanting the mantra of the faithful that "at least he is a good christian".

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  12. Anonymous4:25 AM

    *)*

    Theere is still a significant contingent of He's better than the Democratic alternative. This is not captured in the approval numbers. The question "Do you approve of Bush?" is very different than "Do you like Bush better than...?" Many of my friends no longer defend Bush to me, they only come back with Bill Clinton and bashing and "can you imagine how bad it would be if Kerry was Prez." These discussions quickly devolve into a disagreement about which was the lesser of two poor choices.

    Until we get some decent Democratic leadership that stands for something other than saving their own individaul place of power, I fear that the '06 revolution will not be as dramatic as we all hope.

    I am sickened by the Adminstration (I mean really sickened), but while the Constitution would not be under seige with Dems in power, the Pelosi/Reid/Harman/Rockefeller etc. crowd does little to inspire my confidence.

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  13. Anonymous4:31 AM

    Anonymous said...


    "Let's hope you are right, but I think gerrymandering, the number of seats that need to change over and the Republican grip over the mechanics of the election in key states makes it far from a foregone conclusion. I'm still amazed that Bush won in '04 with what a disaster he has been."

    He actually didn't win in 04 anymore than he did in 00. You are absolutely right though that it is definitely not a foregone conclusion. As you said gerrymandering, combined with election and voting machine fraud may conspire to thwart the will of the people yet again

    "It is also going to take better leadership than the very weak current leadership in the Democratic party."

    You're absolutely right here too. Another key problem is that neither party really represents the will of the majority. The way the stands on the issues splits muddies the waters in every election, and on the really key issues, the economy, and trade they are both in lockstep preventing any real choice. A good third party is the real answer but that isn't going to happen anytime soon. At least not soon enough to make any difference.

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  14. Anonymous4:33 AM

    Anonymous said...

    "Other than low poll ratings, what makes Bush like Truman?"

    Nothing.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Anonymous4:36 AM

    Anonymous said...


    "Theere is still a significant contingent of He's better than the Democratic alternative. This is not captured in the approval numbers. The question "Do you approve of Bush?" is very different than "Do you like Bush better than...?"

    True enough which is why the pick for 08 is going to be extremely important. Hillary ain't gonna do it and neither is Kerry.

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  16. Anonymous4:39 AM

    *)*

    Well, Bush did win in '04 - he's the White House right? Doesn't mean he won fairly (I think RFK had alittle bit to say on that this week).

    Other than that agree with you on all points. I do think however that a significant enough amount of wealth is being accumulated in few enough hands that a third party candidate with the right name recognition and financial backing could get elected President. My hope here is that someone truly wealthy (like Gates or Soros) decides that making the world a better place for their children is worth a few billion. The main problem with the scenario Ia m laying out is that a true third party requires a national footprint and winning more than just the Presidency in order ti be viable and that is a much larger and more difficult proposition. Continued failure and incompetence on both sides of the aisle may lead to this, but if I were betting, I think that competent people and true Patriots will regain control of one or both parties shortly. For the sake of all of us and the survival of our amazing form of governance, I hope I am right.

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  17. Anonymous4:46 AM

    *)

    gris lobo said:

    the pick for 08 is going to be extremely important. Hillary ain't gonna do it and neither is Kerry.


    Probably not. '08 is a long way away and the field of candidates on both sides will be larger than normal. Hillary may be the front runner but it is much too early to be saying who is electable or not. That said, I do wonder if the group of people who would vote for Hitler over Hillary exceeds 50% (which is unfortunate, I don;t think she's great or anything, but she'd make an OK president; no Bill or anything and maybe my standards are lower than they used to be because of the last 5 years, but she'd be a better president than Kerry would have been)

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  18. Anonymous4:54 AM

    Anonymous said...


    "Well, Bush did win in '04 - he's the White House right? Doesn't mean he won fairly (I think RFK had alittle bit to say on that this week)."

    Yeah he is in the White House much to the woe and chagrine of the majority


    "The main problem with the scenario Ia m laying out is that a true third party requires a national footprint and winning more than just the Presidency in order ti be viable and that is a much larger and more difficult proposition. Continued failure and incompetence on both sides of the aisle may lead to this, but if I were betting, I think that competent people and true Patriots will regain control of one or both parties shortly. For the sake of all of us and the survival of our amazing form of governance, I hope I am right."

    A third party president though would wield veto power which would make it tough to pass the really bad legislation. When you have to have a 2/3 rather than just a simple majority the legislation that gets offered up starts looking significantly different. Especially if he/she had popular support and the public let it be known that the rest of them can be replaced just as easily.

    For the sake of all of us I hope you're right too, but I'm not real optimistic right now.

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  19. Anonymous5:07 AM

    *)*

    All I can offer up is that when our country has faced it greatest challnges some amazing men have come to the fore. I'm hoping for that again. Admittedly that is not not long on fact or analysis, but it lets me sleep at night.

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  20. Anonymous5:12 AM

    " Bush's most loyal apologists, and lately Bush himself, have taken to invoking the example of Harry Truman,"

    Who was the only previous president to drop a nuke.

    As long as these maniacs inhabit our White House, we are all in mortal danger.

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  21. Anonymous5:17 AM

    Anonymous said...

    "the pick for 08 is going to be extremely important. Hillary ain't gonna do it and neither is Kerry.

    Probably not. '08 is a long way away and the field of candidates on both sides will be larger than normal. Hillary may be the front runner but it is much too early to be saying who is electable or not. That said, I do wonder if the group of people who would vote for Hitler over Hillary exceeds 50% (which is unfortunate, I don;t think she's great or anything, but she'd make an OK president; no Bill or anything and maybe my standards are lower than they used to be because of the last 5 years, but she'd be a better president than Kerry would have been)"

    Yeah but it is going to take someone who is very electable. Someone who will appeal not only to the party faithful but also to a majority of the all important independent swing voters. I just don't think that Hillary or Kerry fits that profile. And if the Dems do take one or both, the House and Senate, then the pressure is off to counter the Republican domination of the executive and the legislative branches which means the Pres pick has to be better.

    Well, I'm gonna pack it in for the night. Enjoyed the confab.

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  22. Anonymous7:29 AM

    If Bush is looking for some sort of historical comparative validation, he should forget about Truman and take a closer look at Caligula.

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  23. This post skirts a key idea: accountability. Republicans have been on the wrong side of almost every issue, in the long view of history. Minimum wage laws have not resulted in no jobs, inter-racial marriage has not brought about the utter ruination of Western civilization, and Bill Clinton's tax increases did not bring on a disastrous recession.

    I'm more than tired of these people being allowed to walk away from their wrong judgments, time after time.

    Banning gay marriage is wrong, and I hope history will punish those leaders who are (once again) choosing the wrong side.

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  24. Anonymous8:45 AM

    *)*

    Republicans have been on the wrong side of almost every issue, in the long view of history

    Pharo:

    I can't let that one stand, it's just the sort of rhetoric that is causing so many problems. The Republican party has a long and sometimes proud history including Licoln and the Civil War - were they wrong about that? Teddy Roosevelt was A Republican - was he wrong that Trusts were a serious threat? True, I can;t come up with too many recet examples, but let's not damn the whole party.

    Sometimes tax increases have been good sometimes tax decreases have been good. Anyone could make a list of issues where the Dems have been wrong as well.

    The fact that the Reps are wrong about so many issues today does mean that the Republican party is wrong - just the current leadership.

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  25. I don't know why Bush even bothers pushing that gay marriage amendment, considering how much of the constitution he's already ignored & shredded. Why hasn't Karl Rove already had the "Decider" simply outlaw gay marriage by decree, like any other dictator would have done by now? Then they could just start rounding them up for Gay Gulags?

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  26. Anonymous9:16 AM

    Bush's only hope for stemming the coming backlash and retaining Rep control of Congress is to rally the base (the 30% of the country that still buys this crap).

    You have missed the larger aspect of this strategy.

    THEY NEED TO CREATE THE ILLUSTION THAT THEY WILL "RALLY THE BASE" SO THAT THE MSM "ECHO CHAMBER" CAN SUCCESSFULLY "CATAPULT THE PROPPAGANDA" THAT THIS "ENERGIZED" BASE VOTES IN IMPROBABLE TO IMPOSSIBLE NUMBERS

    This allows them to STEAL elections with nonverifiable, proprietary software.

    Just like in 2004 - the lie of the "energized base" will be the cover that prevents a national dialog about the outright fraud and theft of elections on a scale we have never seen before.

    They are cranking up the mighty wurlitzer now.

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  27. Anonymous9:18 AM

    "Other than low poll ratings, what makes Bush like Truman?"

    Well, they both have shit in the white house. Chimpy is also doing it figuratively, across the entire nation.

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  28. Anonymous9:21 AM

    Historical comparison? Look no farther than an ol' bush family friend, ADOLPH HITLER

    Without the support of people like our "great deciders" grandfather prescott, there would have been no third reich.

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  29. Anonymous9:23 AM

    I hope history will punish those leaders who are (once again) choosing the wrong side.

    You mean like turn them into screaming homosexuals with santorum dripping out their asses?

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  30. Anonymous9:33 AM

    "free societies inevitably progress toward greater tolerance and greater equality."

    Not necessarily. This is perhaps why the founders were so cautious about giving free reign to democracy. They had read about the Athenians experience with it.

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  31. Anonymous9:40 AM

    Truman's low approval ratings were a direct result of his necessary smack down of a "beloved military leader". McArthur. If it had not been for that, (and the reason it was so public was that McArthur played to the press and aired this "dirty laundry" in public while still serving, unlike today's brass), Truman's approval ratings would have been much higher.

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  32. Anonymous9:44 AM

    The effort to rehabilitate Bush, and rewrite the history, will be enormous and they will spare no expense. People still think Reagan was a great president and Carter was awful. Neither statements are factually correct, yet Reagan's popularity remains inexplicably high while Carter's is much lower than it should be.

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  33. Anonymous9:47 AM

    A.L.,

    Your entire post is based on the assumption that Bush and the people around him are rational actors. I no longer feel secure in making that blanket assumption.

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  34. Indeed, I suspect even most social conservatives realize this, which is why they are frantically trying to take advantage of popular opinion while it is still on their side.

    This is the reason for their focus on extremely right wing judicial appointments.They want an unelected bulwark against the general and growing social acceptance of individual rights.

    Bush, of course, is under no such illusions, which makes his decision all the more strange. He knows the MPA won't pass. And as Steve Benen points out, he has to know that his 11th hour support of the amendment is unlikely to satisfy his fundamentalist base. And I doubt that Bush himself personally supports the MPA. So why bother endorsing it? Why publicly support a measure that future generations will overwhelming view as nothing more than a statement of ignorance and bigotry?

    This is purely short term political calculation. They want to keep the House and want to keep the money flowing from the wingnut organizations. Seems to me that the more puzzling thing is they seem to not have noticed that the wingnuts are starting to point out that (other than the judicial nominations mentioned above), the Republicans do not deliver anything substantive on these social issues--just bills that are designed to fail.

    You also should not underestimate the power of the bubble. The people around him are feeding him this Truman malarkey, the same way they fed him the Lincoln malarkey earlier. He apparently laps that stuff up. Such a pathetic figure.

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  35. For someone who is so clearly hoping for historical redemption, this is certainly a counter-productive move.

    Not if you think like Karl Rove. Although the religious right will never be satisfied, the move to frighten them with the threat that “marriage is under attack” may just motivate enough of them who are not pleased with Bush to still go to the polls in November – thus keeping Congress in the hands of Republicans – or at least that’s the plan here.

    If Bush can avoid real investigations and continue to cover-up the numerous scandals and crimes this administration is involved in, his “historical redemption” will stand a lot better chance if all that can be kept “secret” – if it is exposed, it will just be worse.

    The support for the MPA is a small price to pay if you can keep those bigger scandals covered up. It makes perfect sense for Bush to want to give some red-meat to the Christianists to get them to vote. They are the single most influential voting group in this country, and the Republicans cannot win elections without them.

    Really, when you consider all that, supporting this amendment, for the Rovians is a slam dunk. It is also one of those “wedge” issues that has been so successful in the past. I’m not surprised at all. Disgusted, yes; surprised, no.

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  36. I suppose it depends on whether the alliance between racists, the religious right, and the government keeps getting stronger or implodes.

    It all depends on the outrage level of the reasonable middle. The racists and fundies have the advantage of being angry all the time. Their agenda is driven by hatred so it doesn't take so much to get them going. What has to happen is for the middle third, who just want to live their lives and raise their families, to realize that THEIR rights are also being trampled. That's where Glenn's book comes in.....I hope.

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  37. Anonymous12:41 PM

    The effort to rehabilitate Bush, and rewrite the history, will be enormous and they will spare no expense.

    I fully expect to see his ass carved into mount rushmore.

    I am hoping that he will spend the rest of his time out of office on one long bender - drunk on his as and snorting coke til his nose falls off.

    I am also hoping he is out of office BEFORE 2008.

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  38. Anonymous12:43 PM

    You ain't seen nothing yet - he will "achieve" immortality when he uses his "decider" status to "decide" that he is chimperor for life, making the transition from a free democracy to a totalitarian facist state complete.

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  39. Anonymous1:08 PM

    Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzz,

    Whats with that moron upstairs - how could Glenn have given her the keys to this playhouse.

    Not only is she preaching and making proclaimations about religion, she is deleting reasonable posts that are on-topic because the disagree with her!

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  40. The social and religious issues are a sideshow and a way to manipulate people into voting against their own interests for 'moral' reasons. The real agenda is economic power and the protection of wealth.

    A state has failed when it must resort to totalitarianism in order to maintain the existing order. Communist states failed right out of the gate because they depended on people to act against their own nature as well as their interests. Capitalist systems have fared considerably better because they expect people to act for their own interest, but they can fail when wealth and power become too concentrated. America is the most prosperous nation in the world and consumes an inordinate portion of the world's resources. This is not because we are so much better or more deserving, but because we are the last great imperial power.

    Like other great imperial powers before us, our prosperity is derived from the cheap resources and labor of lesser nations we are able to dominate and exploit. We don't really need the largest military in the world by far to defend our freedom, we need it to project power around the globe and defend our lifestyle. All empires must fall, though, and America is an empire in decline. The efforts of some (e.g. the neocons) to demonstrate our continued omnipotence by striking out at any nations which appear weak enough to be easily overcome will only hasten the decline, especially when the easy prey end up biting us in the ass.

    The period of time when all of America could prosper together and enjoy rising standards of living is ending. Now the only way to preserve and grow the wealth of the ruling elite at the rates they are accustomed to and demand is by redistribution. When there is no longer plenty to go around, those with the least will be the first to sacrifice. Of course, asking the majority to sacrifice more and more for the sake of the minority isn't a sustainable direction in anything resembling a democracy. Eventually, bigotry and social darwinism would not be enough to convince the majority to continue voting against their own interests and we would see another shift to the left in economic policy as occurred during the first great depression. That is what must be prevented at all costs and is why the right is using all available means to secure power before it is too late. Their ability to rig elections has so far kept ahead of the swing in popular sentiment against them, but the disastrous results of right wing policy under Bush have accelerated the process and the clock is running out faster than they expected. The push is on now to end the grand American experiment and achieve the totalitarianism which will be needed to protect the wealth and power of the existing order.

    The outcome at this point is far from certain and there is still hope the right will fail. Either way we are going to be living in 'interesting times'.

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  41. al:

    "free societies inevitably progress toward greater tolerance and greater equality."

    This has nothing to do with either tolerance or equality.

    If a homosexual couple wants to exchange rings, have someone preside over a ceremony and call themselves "married," no one is going to throw them in jail or persecute them.

    That is the definition of tolerance.

    What some homosexuals are seeking is to have the courts compel society to recognize their unions as "marriages" and to subsidize them like marriage.

    Furthermore, no one is preventing homosexuals from entering into marriages as they have been defined for a millennium - between a man and a woman

    This is the definition of equality.

    Rather, some homosexuals wish to redefine marriage to include homosexual unions. To borrow a metaphor, there are literally a rainbow of loving human relationships of different kinds, but only one relationship has been defined as a marriage for a couple millennium.

    The fact that a homosexual decides that he or she does not desire to enter into marriage with a man or a woman of a different gender does not make the traditional definition of marriage "unequal."

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  42. Rather, some homosexuals wish to redefine marriage to include homosexual unions. To borrow a metaphor, there are literally a rainbow of loving human relationships of different kinds, but only one relationship has been defined as a marriage for a couple millennium.

    First, it's not just homosexuals that want this. Only a small fraction of people are homosexuals, yet fully a third of Americans support gay marriage. And that percentage is much higher among younger Americans.

    Second, you could use a refresher course in history. For most of the last millienium (and before that), marriage had nothing to do with love and everything to do with property and inheritance rights. It was a way of allowing for the orderly distribution of assets from generation to the next. Marriages were generally arranged by fathers and sealed with some sort of monetary consideration. It had everything to do with inheritance rights.

    The idea of marriage being a freely chosen union between two people who love each other is a relatively recent historical development. And inertia and prejudice are the only reasons gay couples have not yet generally beem allowed to engage in such unions.

    Surely, Bart, even you can see the writing on the wall. In 50 years, do you really think people will still be debating this issue?

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  43. Anonymous5:37 PM

    Bart said:
    "This has nothing to do with either tolerance or equality."

    It has everything to do with tolerance AND equality. What is opposition to gay marriage but intolerance and a desire to treat citizens unequally under the law. Good God, man, do you have to take the opposite side on every issue that appears here? And, by the way, have you made it your purpose in life to negate everything written in "Unclaimed Territory"? I get so tired of seeing your name in every discussion, and you always oppose what is being said. I simply don't understand why you do this unless you get some perverse pleasure in your own smug self-righteousness. Wholesome discussion is the essence of democracy but you never seem capable of allowing that liberals may actually be right about some things. I hardly think that the conservative track record has actually been that great over the years. Have you ever tried to make this world a better place, or are you committed to simply tearing down others, and then feeling so, so smug about it? Would you please just find another place to troll for a while. If I could go just one week without seeing your (fictitious) name it would make a lot of people very happy. There, now that you've gotten the kind of response that you wanted from me, I'm sure that you'll feel better for the rest of the day and be right back here blathering your spiel right away. You obviously are too insensitive to take anyone else's feelings to heart. "Pillowcase" by the way contains my real name.

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  44. What's the rate of illiteracy in the US ... 30% Since Bush it's probably swallowed up whole Fox communities. I'm beginning to think that the 30% still with him are Utah polygammists & illiterates. The #'s seem to match.

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  45. Anonymous6:38 PM

    A.L. For most of the last millienium (and before that), marriage had nothing to do with love and everything to do with property and inheritance rights.

    Precisely why celibacy for the Priesthood became the rule.

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  46. Anonymous6:41 PM

    Bart said:
    "This has nothing to do with either tolerance or equality."


    Bart is just a tightass. Parabus ceteris but lower taxes were the liberal position, Bart would marry a a man himself for the tax break. He's a freeloader who just wants something for nothing.

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  47. Anonymous6:59 PM

    From Bart at 4:38PM:

    "Furthermore, no one is preventing homosexuals from entering into marriages as they have been defined for a millennium - between a man and a woman. This is the definition of equality."

    No, what this is is nonsensicle.

    How exactly do you suggest a homosexual couple "enter into a marriage as they have been defined for a millennium"?

    I sometimes wonder how you come up with these comments; it simply defies logic and reason entirely.

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  48. Late to the thread and all the good comments have been taken. The very first, by Disenchanted Dave, was almost verbatim what I was thinking while reading A.L.'s post. I would like to respond to the question posed by anonymous at 4:03 am.

    "Other than low poll ratings, what makes Bush like Truman?"

    My dismal meter goes off the scale when I contemplate the possible answer to this. Maybe what makes Bush like Truman hasn't happened yet. Truman is the only world leader to date to deploy nuclear weapons against an unprotected civilian populace.

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  49. My apologies to Paul in LA for commenting prior to reading the entire thread. As I said, all the good ideas have been taken

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  50. Anonymous10:11 PM

    In 50 years:

    Global warming caused by humans will the scientific embarrassment of our generation as it will turn out to be a farce cult just like the 70's ice age scare was.

    The war in Iraq will be judged as a tragic but undeniable success as Iraq emerges with a democratic government with 100 times the economy of any other Arab state. History will be very kind to George W.

    11 states will allow gay marriage. 40 will not (D.C. will eventually be made a state) and Wisconsin, Minnesota and Massachusetts will allow polygamist civil unions.

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  51. Anonymous10:45 PM

    well anon - that's one way to avoid talking about treason, war crimes, war profiteering, crimes against humanity, and dismal failures of this administration.

    Just pretend you have a crystal ball and start pulling proclaimations out of your ass without having anything to justify the story you make up as you go along.

    Sure, it must play well on the wingnut blogs and at chimpy's carefully screened appearances, but it is falling flat across America and most here see it as the bold-faced lie that it is.

    Thanks for showing us that ignorance knows no bounds. Gratefully, most of America is seeing our "great decider" in a more honest and accurate light.

    He is a wildly unpopular man and his economics, "war on terror", national security, "war president thing" and policies are even more unpopular than the man himself.

    And only 25% think he is honest.

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  52. A.L. said...

    Bart: Rather, some homosexuals wish to redefine marriage to include homosexual unions. To borrow a metaphor, there are literally a rainbow of loving human relationships of different kinds, but only one relationship has been defined as a marriage for a couple millennium.

    First, it's not just homosexuals that want this. Only a small fraction of people are homosexuals, yet fully a third of Americans support gay marriage. And that percentage is much higher among younger Americans.


    There is a difference between telling a pollster you support or don't oppose something and actually acting on that alleged belief. There is no substantial movement among heterosexuals to democratically change the legal definition of marriage or they would do so. Every time they run state constitutional amendment to define marriage by the voters, the amendments win by large margins.

    Second, you could use a refresher course in history. For most of the last millienium (and before that), marriage had nothing to do with love and everything to do with property and inheritance rights. It was a way of allowing for the orderly distribution of assets from generation to the next.

    Actually, it had everything to do with raising children. Property transfer would not need to take place if everyone was shacked up and the men did not take responsibility for their mates and children.

    The idea of marriage being a freely chosen union between two people who love each other is a relatively recent historical development. And inertia and prejudice are the only reasons gay couples have not yet generally beem allowed to engage in such unions.

    I agree that marriages for love is a recent development. I raised it simply because homosexuals claim that their relationships are the equivalent to marriage because both are loving relationships. Homosexuals do their best to denigrate the primary purpose of marriage which is to create and raise the next generation.

    Surely, Bart, even you can see the writing on the wall. In 50 years, do you really think people will still be debating this issue?

    No, because marriage will be a passing fad among homosexuals. Very few are taking advantage of the Massachusetts law.

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  53. HWSNBN echoes the lovely sentiments of the Commonwealth of Virginia as detailed in the aptly named Loving v. Virginia:

    Furthermore, no one is preventing homosexuals from entering into marriages as they have been defined for a millennium - between a man and a woman.

    Simply lovely. The court in Loving (link above) commented on the similar argument put forth by courts of Virginia to uphold their miscegenation laws and punish the Loving couple for having the temerity to marry someone that the state did not approve:

    "Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

    Here's how the U.S. Supreme Court described Virginia's argument in favour of their anti-miscegenation laws, an argument analogous to HWSNBN's above:

    "Instead, the State argues that the meaning of the Equal Protection Clause, as illuminated by the statements of the Framers, is only that state penal laws containing an interracial element as part of the definition of the offense must apply equally to whites and Negroes in the sense that members of each race are punished to the same degree. Thus, the State contends that, because its miscegenation statutes punish equally both the white and the Negro participants in an interracial marriage, these statutes, despite their reliance on racial classifications, do not constitute an invidious discrimination based upon race."

    Neither blacks nor whites were prohibited from marrying; they just had to marry (if they were to marry) the kind of person the state thought permissible.

    The U.S. Supreme court said:

    "Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival. To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discriminations. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.

    "These convictions must be reversed."

    A unanimous decison. And a victory for the Loving couple, who were allowed to marry the person that they loved, and not just someone that the state deigned to allow.

    Cheers,

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  54. Anonymous3:47 AM

    Bart said:

    "Homosexuals do their best to denigrate the primary purpose of marriage which is to create and raise the next generation."

    And so you think that creating and raising the next generation is dependent on a piece of paper? And here all this time I've thought that a loving relationship and the sexual union between a man and a woman were responsible for that. And now I find out that it's all just dependent on some piece of paper drawn up by the Government.

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  55. Anonymous8:37 AM

    "free societies inevitably progress toward greater tolerance and greater equality."

    do they? I'd offer our country's so-called War on Drugs as a counterexample. It was conceived in racism and has a disproportionate effect on socially disadvantaged individuals, and it certainly is not an example of tolerance for persons whose personal preferences fall outside the norm.

    This crime against humanity is nearly a century old now, and shows no sign of slackening anytime soon. No, I'd say that the civil rights explosion of forty years ago, presumably the source of your optimism regarding the inevitable improvement of society, is a lucky accident of history, and no more.

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  56. Anonymous9:28 AM

    Bart -

    I've re-read your post at 4:38PM several times now, and it makes progressively less and less sense.

    What precisely are you trying to argue? That there is no legal prohibition against gays and lesbians actually marrying right now? That the entire definition of 'marriage' is under attack? That gays and lesbians should only be tolerated but never afforded legal equality in this arena?

    I sincerely hope you argue for your clients with greater coherence than this.

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  57. Pillowcase said...

    Good God, man, do you have to take the opposite side on every issue that appears here? And, by the way, have you made it your purpose in life to negate everything written in "Unclaimed Territory"?

    On this blog, I agreed with the decriminalization of most drugs, the fact that George Bush spends far too much money, and the opposition to adding the marriage and family amendments.

    I agree with maybe half of you by supporting the liberation of Afghanistan and the wiretapping of al Qaeda, even though those folks wrongly claim that warrants are required.

    All that aside, I come here to debate the issues, not to be part of some Greek chorus of agreement.

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  58. Gris Lobo said...

    Bart said: "Homosexuals do their best to denigrate the primary purpose of marriage which is to create and raise the next generation."

    And so you think that creating and raising the next generation is dependent on a piece of paper?


    By far the best way to create and raise the next generation is the institution of marriage. The fact that the government has licensed it is irrelevant.

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  59. yankeependragon said...

    Bart - I've re-read your post at 4:38PM several times now, and it makes progressively less and less sense.

    What precisely are you trying to argue? That there is no legal prohibition against gays and lesbians actually marrying right now?


    Marriage in our country has two guises - the marriage in fact and the government approval of that marriage through a license and subsidies.

    The marriage in act is the actual union of the man and the woman. That is usually accomplished by the church or simply making the commitment in fact ala a common law marriage.

    Society has decided to have their government recognize and encourage marriage above all other human relationships by providing a license which allows the couple to enjoy a variety of subsidies and legal benefits.

    There is no law preventing homosexuals from entering into a marriage in fact.

    What some homosexuals want is to compel society to recognize homosexual unions as the equivalent of marriage.

    I oppose changing the definition of marriage by the courts for two different reasons.

    First, the courts are illegally acting a legislatures and imposing laws which are nowhere in the constitutions on citizens which overwhelmingly oppose such laws.

    Second, homosexual unions are not analogous to marriage and do not provide society any benefit which would justify recognition or subsidy.

    If an elected legislature decides to change the definition of marriage, so be it. The people have spoken. However, this is not close to happening and should not be imposed by fiat.

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  60. Anonymous4:43 PM

    From Bart at 1:03PM:

    "There is no law preventing homosexuals from entering into a marriage in fact."

    I'll leave that alone right now, as I'm not sure I could form a real argument against what is essentially a chimira.

    "What some homosexuals want is to compel society to recognize homosexual unions as the equivalent of marriage."

    Heaven forbid they actually ask to be treated as full and equal partners in society.

    "I oppose changing the definition of marriage by the courts for two different reasons."

    So you're arguing the law should not be compelled to treat all its citizens the same under all circumstances (your first objection), and that basically the concept of 'homosexual marriage' is simply to "icky" for you to conceive as an equally valid partnership which can provide equal benefit to society (your second argument)?

    Remind me to set the bar lower for future expections where your arguments are concerned; like about ankle high.

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  61. Anonymous10:21 PM

    Bart said, "Second, homosexual unions are not analogous to marriage and do not provide society any benefit which would justify recognition or subsidy.

    If an elected legislature decides to change the definition of marriage, so be it. The people have spoken. However, this is not close to happening and should not be imposed by fiat. "


    While it is true, as Bart says, that homosexuals are currently allowed to have religious marriages, since several religions will marry same-sex couples, it is not yet allowed for ss couples to have legal marriages.
    However, Bart is not correct when he says that no legislature has voted to allow ss marriage: the California legislature did vote to allow ss marriage, but the Governator vetoed it: that is, an "activist gov."
    Bart also says that ss unions do not provide society any benefits which would justify legalizing ss marriage. Would you please enumerate exactly what benefit heterosexual marriages give society that ss marriages don't also give? Many of the ss couples I know either do already have children or are in process working on having children. The big difference as I see it is that ss couples only have wanted children, whereas over half of hetero's kids are accidents.

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  62. HWSNBN sez cluelessly:

    The definition of marriage has been the same for a couple millenium.

    The anti miscegenation laws did not change the definition of marriage, it simply made illegal interracial marriage.

    Homosexuals are attempting to change the definition of marriage.

    Some typos there. Let me fix tahts econd paragraph:

    "The anti-gay-marriage law did not change the definition of marriage, it simply made illegal gay marriage".

    That's the real issue, and this is why this "logic" of Bart's is a crock, in the face of such as Loving.

    Cheers,

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  63. Anonymous11:56 AM

    Bart: The anti miscegenation laws did not change the definition of marriage, it simply made illegal interracial marriage.

    Anti-miscengentation laws DEFINED marriage as only occurring among members of the same race.

    ReplyDelete
  64. A Harper's article from a while back on the "late term abortion ban" was an eye-opener. The Republicans don't want bills like the abortion ban or gay marriage bill to pass.

    They want to "lose" on these issues, so as to appear under attack by a corrupt society. Then, they can ressurect these issues even at times like this when they've failed on nearly every big issue. They can divert attention from the real issues and get people riled up hating immigrants, pro-choicers, gays, or whatever is next in the hate queue.

    Why on Earth would they want ever pass a successful late term abortion ban, or really amend the Consitution? This has nothing to do with how Bush will go down in history, and everything to do with trying to hold on to power in the here and now.

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  65. Anonymous9:39 PM

    Finally, ted came up with a plausible answer to "why? why is Bush pushing the anti-marriage amendment now?"

    But here's what I think is going on - this issue is seen by the Bush administration as an opportunity to snipe at and marginalize the judicial branch. Note the references to "the people" vs. "unelected judges" or the worst demon label of the moment - "activist judges". What does that mean? that the only good judge is one that does what we tell him/her to do?

    They're trying to make us forget that our judicial system is SUPPOSED to be "activist" - to protect the minority against the mob mentality of the majority. And Bush doesn't need the religious right, he doesn't need the amendment to pass, he doesn't even need it to be a distraction. They're getting that message, that judges are bad, out into the world. "Legislate from the bench" makes me guffaw in wonder. How about "innocent until proven guilty"? How about overturning illegal procedures by the congress? How about protecting the constitution from a direct, no-holds-barred, all-out war on many fronts?

    If they can convince America that all judges are opposed to americans, they'll succeed in taking away the judicial branch of government.

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