Increasingly, there is simply no role for courts to review the President's actions, nor for citizens to challenge the legality and constitutionality of those actions. A month or so ago I wrote about the administration's rapidly increasing use of the "state secrets privilege" -- once a rarely invoked weapon used by the Government to prevent litigation from exposing critical national security secrets, but now something which the Bush administration routinely exploits to prevent any legal challenge to its behavior. As lawyer Henry Lanman details in Slate today:
Never heard of the "state secrets" privilege? You're not alone. But the Bush administration sure has. Before Sept. 11, this obscure privilege was invoked only rarely. Since then, the administration has dramatically increased its use. According to the Washington Post, the Reporters' Committee for Freedom of the Press reported that while the government asserted the privilege approximately 55 times in total between 1954 (the privilege was first recognized in 1953) and 2001, it's asserted it 23 times in the four years after Sept. 11. For an administration as obsessed with secrecy as this one is, the privilege is simply proving to be too powerful a tool to pass up.
The Bush administration has now invoked this doctrine in virtually every pending legal proceeding devoted to challenging the legality of the warrantless NSA eavesdropping program - all but assuring, yet again, that no court can rule on the legality of that program. The administration also just used the same tactic to compel dismissal of a lawsuit brought by Khalid El-Masri, a German citizen who alleges -- with the support of German prosecutors -- that the U.S. Government abducted him, drugged him, flew him to multiple different torture-using countries as part of the administration's "rendition" program, only to then release him after five months when the U.S. realized it had abducted the wrong person. There is no dispute about the accuracy of El-Masri's allegations:
This year, German investigators confirmed most of Masri's allegations, which have received extensive publicity in Europe.
In December, during a joint news conference with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said Rice had admitted the mistake.
But no matter. The Bush administration believes that its actions -- like the court of the British King -- are above being scrutinized by some lowly federal court or subjected to principles of law intended only for plebeians. As courts almost always do, the Federal Judge in El-Masri's case deferred to the administration's "state secrets" claim and dismissed the lawsuit. The Bush administration used the same maneuver last year to compel "dismissal of a lawsuit by a Canadian citizen who claimed that he was taken to Syria by U.S. officials for detention and was tortured."
So the Bush administration goes around the world abducting other countries' citizens and torturing them. It then claims that the legality of its actions cannot be judged by anyone -- even American federal courts -- because American national security would be harmed if its actions were subjected to such review. Under the circumstances, it is so very difficult to understand why the rest of the world mocks, ridicules, and scoffs at the Bush administration's lectures to the world about principles of freedom and democracy, along with the administration's belief that it can even invade other countries around the world in order to impose what it understands to be "freedom and democracy."
Yesterday, President Bush gave a speech in Chicago on immigration and the "war on terror," and took questions afterwards. In response to a question about Venezuela and Bolivia (where the new leftist Government has begun nationalizing oil and gas resources, including breaking contracts with and expelling Latin American companies), the President issued this lecture to South America:
I am going to continue to remind our hemisphere that respect for property rights and human rights is essential for all countries in order for there to be prosperity and peace. I'm going to remind our allies and friends in the neighborhood that the United States of America stands for justice; that when we see poverty, we care about it and we do something about it; that we care for good -- we stand for good health care.
I'm going to remind our people that meddling in other elections is -- to achieve a short-term objective is not in the interests of the neighborhood. . . . I want to remind people that the United States stands against corruption at all levels of government, that the United States is transparent. The United States expects the same from other countries in the neighborhood, and we'll work toward them.
Thank you very much. I'm concerned -- let me just put it bluntly -- I'm concerned about the erosion of democracy in the countries you mentioned.
Who has less credibility to deliver these sermons to the world than George Bush? The stories of the U.S. abducting people, torturing them, and then blocking any judicial review of its behavior are read around the world. Photographs from Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib are ingrained in the minds of anyone around the world with a television set, as is the Bush administration's insistence that it is unbound by the Geneva Conventions and legal prohibitions on the use of torture. The threat by Alberto Gonzales over the weekend to imprison American journalists was reported prominently in international newspapers, as are stories of the U.S. Government eavesdropping on its own citizens in secret, the creation of secret Eastern European prisons, and the general lawlessness which has prevailed in this country since September 11.
In Brazil last week, an organized crime faction in São Paolo launched a wave of extremely violent, terrorist-like attacks on the city's police stations, banks, hospitals, and transportation systems, killing scores of police officers and creating havoc in that city for days. In response, the São Paolo Police engaged in what appears to be all sorts of reprisals against the gangs, including summary executions and indiscriminate killings of male youths in the gangs' principal neighborhoods.
The ensuing debate among Brazilians almost invariably emphasized the need to avoid giving into the emotional temptation to engage in extreme behavior, violate human rights, and abandon any principles of restraint in responding to the gang attacks. And, by far, the most commonly cited example of the dangers of those temptations is the manner in which the U.S. responded to the 9/11 attacks -- by torturing people, invading countries with no connection to the attacks, and generally abandoning the principles and values which had previously defined the country's sense of justice. When one wants to illustrate the hazards of abandoning all restraint in the face of an outrageous act, the U.S. is the example which now most readily springs to minds around the world.
As we lecture the world about the need for transparency and democracy, and as we continue to proclaim that our foreign policy is based principally on the objective of spreading our ideas about democracy to other countries -- even by military invasion, if necessary -- the U.S. has become a symbol of human rights abuses and anti-democratic measures around the world. We have squandered almost every molecule of moral credibility which we justifiably possessed for most of the 20th Century, particularly since World War II. In so many ways during the last five years, we have become a country which engages in those very practices which always characterized other countries, the ones we were grateful not to live in because they failed to protect the liberties and principles which defined the United States.
A detailed profile in this week's U.S. News & World Report of David Addington, Dick Cheney's top advisor who is a sightly more extreme version of John Yoo, provides the perfect snapshot which conveys why this has all happened:
Whether or not he became the de facto leader of the group, as some administration officials say, Addington's involvement made for a formidable team. "You put Addington, Yoo, and Gonzales in a room, and there was a race to see who was tougher than the rest and how expansive they could be with respect to presidential power," says a former Justice Department official. "If you suggested anything less, you were considered a wimp."
The crux of the Bush administration for the last five years has basically been a competition of contrived, cheap manliness where the winner is he who can wage the most aggressive and fundamental war on American principles of government which have defined our country since its founding. Vesting increased power in the Commander-in-Chief and compiling ever-increasing powers of secrecy have been the only two principles with any recognized value. Those most steadfastly loyal to those two objectives have flourished and consolidated power. As a result, the role of the judiciary and the Congress in our system of government has never been smaller, while the power of the President has never been greater. And the greatest enemy of the administration are checks and balances of any kind -- whether from Congress, the courts or the media.
And our last line of defense, the media, are being threatened for showing what little initiative they have.
ReplyDelete"Who has less credibility to deliver these sermons to the world than George Bush?"
ReplyDeleteNobody currently living.
Sad really.
U.S. = Rogue state.
ReplyDeleteRogue state
ReplyDeleteJust shoot me, already!
why all this whining about our great war hero George W. Bush doing what needs to be done? We will only be truly safe when our Supreme commander in chief proclaims the constutution a dead letter and dissolves Congress and the Courts. Then we can all sleep better at night. I know I'll wet the bed less.
ReplyDeleteAs someone who would like to travel the world before he dies I'm afraid Bush has dashed that hope. Anti-American sentiment is at an all time low. Thanks a lot.
ReplyDeleteI think this fits with the theme of your post quite well.
ReplyDeleteDoublespeak undermines war on terrorism: Amnesty
Look, we may be encouraging other regimes to express their power through torture and other fraternity pranks, but this is truly for the best. By giving these other regimes license to express their true selves, we give ourselves more blatant excuse for invading them and occupying their countries. Then we don't have to blatantly make stuff up to convince you its time to get your war on.
ReplyDeleteThe outcomes that we have to choose from are:
ReplyDelete1. The Repub neocons push the system to failure and establish a de facto totalitarian state--rigged elections, rigged courts, rigged media and mysterious "disappearances" of anyone who complains too loudly.
2. The Dems retake the house in November, pass a censure of Bush, enact superficial reform of lobbying and get on the gravy train. Within ten years, the Dems will push the system to failure and establish a de facto totalitarian state--rigged elections, rigged courts, rigged media and mysterious "disappearances" of anyone who complains too loudly.
3. The Dems retake the house in November, and
(a) Impeach Bush and Cheney,
(b) Reform the electoral process, including public campaign financing, independent redistricting and strictly controlled lobbying,
(c) Establish an independent AG and an independent Inspector General of secrecy, enact a shield law for secrecy whistleblowers and
(d) Eliminate corporatist dominion over the media.
In short, it isn't just about this particular gang currently in power. It's about a system that promotes and facilitates corrupt governance. Thoroughgoing reform of the system is the only real solution for the longer term.
Glenn -- thanks for naming it this way: "contrived, cheap manliness." That aspect of the horrendous misconduct of our rulers is often skipped over among all their other egregious faults.
ReplyDeleteAs for the state secrets privilege: they've created a situation where the can't go to court with most of what they know. A whole illegal edifice would come tumbing down. So they have to abolish effective judicial review. Gone. Over. No more of that blind justice stuff...
People occasionally comment (often sarcastically I know) that you should quit wasting your time talking reason to people who have all but abandoned it and will say anything, no matter how intellectually dishonest to stay in power.
ReplyDeleteI just want to say keep it up. You offer great analysis and simple explanations of complex issues during the most challenging period our nation has faced in my lifetime. We are indeed being boiled slowly by this administration, but it is encouraging to see a lawyer stand up to the powerful at a time when people have truly forgotten how a real patriot should act. Gonzalez' statements about prosecuting the press were uttered with his trademark grin, but the more they were examined and held up to history, the more chilling they appeared. I fear a lot of things today, but the most terrifying thing for me is that perhaps Americans will begin to suffer "scandal fatique" and once again return to fear-motivated, flag rallying if an attack on Iran begins and is spun with another smoking gun as mushroom cloud analogy. It will be much tougher to pull this off this time; hopefully impossible and people like you deserve much credit for that for providing us with a lucid picture of the path we are on under this administration. As frustrating as it is to see how far these people will go in clinging to power, it's exciting to see a movement building, guided by a few committed individuals.
Glenn says:
ReplyDeleteAs a result, the role of the judiciary and the Congress in our system of government has never been smaller, while the power of the President has never been greater.
And why is that? Because Republicans have won three elections in a row. From the looks of things it's going to be four this November.
Sorry but I still can't get worked up about the outrage du'jour when they turn out to be little more than puffery. Plame's a bust, The NSA got leaked only to demonstrate that the trumpeted fears about eavesdropping were overblown, and the signing statement brou-ha-ha, went nowhere.
Keep it up gang, like the "culture of corruption" meme, everytime you folks get up on the moral high horse, the saddle slips off.
Let me add that I was watching Hardball and found it surreal that in discussing the Jefferson case, Libby and Delay were vilified even though their charges remain manufactured, while the question about a guy caught with marked money is whether there is a challenge to his seat. Sad, just sad.
Shooter 242,
ReplyDeleteI'm sure glad I'm not the only one who drank his Koolaid this morning.
Great post, Glenn. Inspired me to write this.
ReplyDeleteFrom shooter242 at 1:22PM:
ReplyDelete"Plame's a bust, The NSA got leaked only to demonstrate that the trumpeted fears about eavesdropping were overblown, and the signing statement brou-ha-ha, went nowhere."
The Fitzgerald investigation is still ongoing. The NSA scandal continues to fester. And the 'Signing Statements' have yet to be fully examined.
Don't worry. Unlike the right-end of the dial, the majority of us know how to be patient.
"Let me add that I was watching Hardball and found it surreal that in discussing the Jefferson case, Libby and Delay were vilified even though their charges remain manufactured, while the question about a guy caught with marked money is whether there is a challenge to his seat."
I'd be careful about calling them 'manufactured', especially given how the charges against both Libby and Delay are factually based and well documented.
"Sad, just sad."
Isn't it so, especially if this is the best you can muster.
1:22 PM
Wow, shooter242 is blind as a bat.
ReplyDeleteLOL.
Addington most certainly is a nobody, a nobody you should know
ReplyDeleteBreaking the back of the corporate media.
ReplyDeleteWe have to trust bust these corporations.
Great post Glenn.
All the while Russia and China have moved closer together.
ReplyDeleteIran will be our Poland.
In so many ways during the last five years, we have become a country which engages in those very practices which always characterized other countries, the ones we were grateful not to live in because they failed to protect the liberties and principles which defined the United States
ReplyDeleteThis of course matches my take on the situation. All the justifications for all the actions we've taken as a nation in my lifetime (DOB 1957) ring hollow now. Even the phrase "defending freedom" which used to be the one rallying cry all Americans could get behind has lost its meaning.
Rallying cry?
ReplyDelete"Restore democracy in America NOW!"
Read Charles Sullivan:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13135.htm
By the mid-80s, as the Reagan administration began to suffocate in its own filth, the claim of "national security" began popping up everywhere, in defense of everything.
ReplyDeleteLast refuge of a scoundrel, anyone?
.
The same people who were so worried about the words 'under God' in the pledge of allegiance are the ones who seem to miss the phrase about 'liberty and justice for all'.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe their definition of 'all' is a lot narrower than the one the rest of us use.
And why is that? Because Republicans have won three elections in a row. From the looks of things it's going to be four this November.
ReplyDeleteBwahahahaha!
One election. From the looks of it, you and your kind are too blind, deluded and disoriented to find the polls. If this one gets stolen, blood will run in the streets. Your blood.
And the difference between a state sponsored "cold war", Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, Gulf War I, and War on Terror that calls for the Secrets Act to be invoked so often is ...? And while the Berlin wall came down, Russia stood down, Korea was resolved to the point of management, etc. certainly with the help of clandestine operations; now we have this grand series of schemes of secrecy which are not even minutely stopping AQ but instead giving cover to our govt's inability to define, detect & simply adapt to a stateless enemy. ps, got 6 copies of hwapa today. already found good homes for them.
ReplyDelete2000 is not open to debate. It's settled. Bush lost. He was selected by the SCOTUS.
ReplyDeleteWhat Americans think about the 2004 election
Note Bene: Fox News viewers are not Americans, they are traitors and should get "5 in the noggin".
Stolen Legitimate
ABC 56% 32%
CBS 64% 31%
CNN 70% 24%
FOX .5% 99%
MSNBC 65% 24%
NBC 49% 43%
Other 56% 28%
Fuck around again and you will not live to see the benefits of the fraud.
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteSo the Bush administration goes around the world abducting other countries' citizens and torturing them. It then claims that the legality of its actions cannot be judged by anyone -- even American federal courts -- because American national security would be harmed if its actions were subjected to such review.
You're plagiarising here, Glenn. I went to the on-line dictionary, and looked up:
"Dictatorship"
and that's what came up....
;-)
Cheers,
A little something for all the Plame down-players:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.firedoglake.com/2006/05/23/two-from-cia-said-to-testify-libbys-lying/
Don't you know how silly you look?
Glenn,
ReplyDeletePlease do not exagerate in your claims.
Don't let yourself succumb to cheap
shots. Don't let anger and hatred
creep in to your arguments.
The evidence is damning enough.
This country is far from a third
world dictatorship. Far better than most European governments. But we are also straying significantly from our ideals.
Correcting the government excess is too important to introduce partisanship and easily dismissed extreme statements. Just as the unchecked expansions under Clinton have been used by Bush - Bush's new powers will be used by the next President.
The elections in this country are free and fair. All Americans think like me. Those who don't are traitors and devils and evil doers. I can leg press 2000 lbs. of weight while watching Fox News and the 700 Club.
ReplyDeleteVote for John McCain.
The debate about who is the better driver is now over. It's moved to the "back away from the controls or get your head split open" phase.
ReplyDeleteBack before the 04 election I made a prediction. One of the goals of the Bush/GOP congress was to increase debt so much so as to be able to then create a crisis so that they could then say, well there's no more money for our social contracts. This would then allow them to end the New Deal and our social safety net which the radical part of the GOP has been after for 40 years.
ReplyDeleteAt the time I thought I was being precient.
What I see now is that bankrupting the treasury is but a slice of the goals these corrupt souls have in mind.
They fully intend to:
a) enrich themsleves
b) end constitutional democracy
c) begin to violently enforce their agenda
We've seen phase one and the beginnings of phase two.
shooter242 remains clueless:
ReplyDeleteAnd why is that? Because Republicans have won three elections in a row. From the looks of things it's going to be four this November.
"Whistling past the graveyard..." Shooter needs his daily fix of LittleGreenSnotballs and Freeperville just to keep from blowing his own head off in despair....
Sorry but I still can't get worked up about the outrage du'jour when they turn out to be little more than puffery....
You couldn't get worked up even if the RW foamers lauded the "Final Solution".... Oh, wait, they did...
... Plame's a bust, ...
Well, one bust so far. Soon to be two. And a lot more people have been in on the outing of a CIA NOC for political revenge. Kind of makes you proud to be a maladministration sycophant ... particularly when the maladministration is going nutzo about supposed "security leaks" and how criminal it is....
... The NSA got leaked only to demonstrate that the trumpeted fears about eavesdropping were overblown, ...
Huh? You mean that Rove was behind this all??? And they're still going to try and hand the journalists that leaked this non-secret, disinformation, "false story" anyway? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you....
... and the signing statement brou-ha-ha, went nowhere.
Hasn't started yet.
Keep it up gang, like the "culture of corruption" meme, everytime you folks get up on the moral high horse, the saddle slips off.
Cunningham has just begun to sing (probably thanks to some folks that said that maybe the sentence ought to be reconsidered in light of his "co-operation"....). Then there's Ney, DeLay, Abramoff, etc. Not to mention the wholesale gaft and corruption in the "Iraqi re-building".... The maladministration is scared sh*tless about a Democratic Congress.
Cheers,
What do you suppose happens when you accept one of these 101st Keyboard Kommando's challenges? He cuts and runs. More like scuttles away... Very brave, these bad boys... No wonder righteous indignation and anger scares them.
ReplyDeleteHew is our "great decider" and "chimperor in chief." Perhaps more importantly, he is our "war monkey" and therefor has total dictorial powers -- US Bill of Rights and Constitution are now "null and void."
ReplyDeleteHe will not have to leave office in 2008 because doing so will put the nation at risk. Even if he does decide to allow another to run for the office of POTUS in 2008 - we now only have the right to vote, but not the right to have those votes counted or verified.
Some will not have the right to vote because the "great decider" and his supporters reserve the right to have private contractors create "felon/ineligible" lists -- accuracy of these lists is not important.
Now let's all salute the chimpanzee fuhrer, HEIL CHIMPY!
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteIncreasingly, there is simply no role for courts to review the President's actions, nor for citizens to challenge the legality and constitutionality of those actions. A month or so ago I wrote about the administration's rapidly increasing use of the "state secrets privilege" -- once a rarely invoked weapon used by the Government to prevent litigation from exposing critical national security secrets, but now something which the Bush administration routinely exploits to prevent any legal challenge to its behavior. As lawyer Henry Lanman details in Slate today:
Never heard of the "state secrets" privilege? You're not alone. But the Bush administration sure has. Before Sept. 11, this obscure privilege was invoked only rarely. Since then, the administration has dramatically increased its use. According to the Washington Post, the Reporters' Committee for Freedom of the Press reported that while the government asserted the privilege approximately 55 times in total between 1954 (the privilege was first recognized in 1953) and 2001, it's asserted it 23 times in the four years after Sept. 11. For an administration as obsessed with secrecy as this one is, the privilege is simply proving to be too powerful a tool to pass up.
We have gone through this before. Even the critics like Lanman above recognize that the "state secrets" evidentiary privilege is well established and long standing. The use of this privilege is hardly radical and does not present any new limitations on judicial review.
DOJ is primarily using this well recognized evidentiary privilege in cases brought by legal groups without standing who are seeking to perform discovery fishing expeditions to disclose the means and methods of top secret intelligence gathering programs.
How many of these kind of law suits were filed pre 9/11?
Indeed, most of these cases should not have even proceeded to the discovery phase and should have been dismissed with prejudice from the outset for lack of standing. It is an abuse of discovery to use this process in a fishing expedition to find a plaintiff.
The Bush administration has now invoked this doctrine in virtually every pending legal proceeding devoted to challenging the legality of the warrantless NSA eavesdropping program - all but assuring, yet again, that no court can rule on the legality of that program.
Nonsense. There are two criminal cases with actual defendants with an actual legal claims that the NSA program was illegally used to gather evidence used against them or which would have exonerated them. These should be interesting.
The administration also just used the same tactic to compel dismissal of a lawsuit brought by Khalid El-Masri, a German citizen who alleges -- with the support of German prosecutors -- that the U.S. Government abducted him, drugged him, flew him to multiple different torture-using countries as part of the administration's "rendition" program, only to then release him after five months when the U.S. realized it had abducted the wrong person. m There is no dispute about the accuracy of El-Masri's allegations:
This is highly misleading. El Masri is not a US citizen and the alleged damages did not occur in the US. Therefore, he only has a limited statutory right around US sovereign immunity to bring a civil suit.
The fact is that al Masri did not have sufficient evidence against the United States to even present a prima facie civil damages case to the court, which is a very low standard. Because el Masri did not have sufficient evidence to prove his case, his lawyers sought discovery of classified materials in a fishing expedition looking for the evidence to make a case. The court was perfectly correct in ruling that el Masri had no right to access to classified materials and dismissed his civil damages claim.
So the Bush administration goes around the world abducting other countries' citizens and torturing them. It then claims that the legality of its actions cannot be judged by anyone -- even American federal courts -- because American national security would be harmed if its actions were subjected to such review.
DOJ has never made such an argument. El Masri's case was dismissed for lack of evidence.
In Brazil last week, an organized crime faction in São Paolo launched a wave of extremely violent, terrorist-like attacks on the city's police stations, banks, hospitals, and transportation systems, killing scores of police officers and creating havoc in that city for days. In response, the São Paolo Police engaged in what appears to be all sorts of reprisals against the gangs, including summary executions and indiscriminate killings of male youths in the gangs' principal neighborhoods.
The ensuing debate among Brazilians almost invariably emphasized the need to avoid giving into the emotional temptation to engage in extreme behavior, violate human rights, and abandon any principles of restraint in responding to the gang attacks. And, by far, the most commonly cited example of the dangers of those temptations is the manner in which the U.S. responded to the 9/11 attacks -- by torturing people, invading countries with no connection to the attacks, and generally abandoning the principles and values which had previously defined the country's sense of justice.
What an absolutely absurd comparison.
You alleged Brazil's police were committing illegal summary executions of any male citizen they thought might belong to a gang.
Exactly how do these alleged Brazilian crimes possibly compare to with perfectly legal interrogation (which does not fall under the definition of torture to which the US agreed) of captured foreign illegal combatants and the perfectly legal liberation of Iraq pursuant to a congressional AUMF and several UN resolutions from a tyrant who has murdered more than 300,000 of his own citizens?
Your own comparison undermines your argument.
Exactly how do these alleged Brazilian crimes possibly compare to with perfectly legal interrogation (which does not fall under the definition of torture to which the US agreed)
ReplyDeleteLike leaving a guy to suffocate in a bucket of his own shit? Like practising flying karate kicks into a guy's chest while he's duct-taped to a chair? Like threatening them with snapping dogs? Please review the Senate's statement on ratifying the UNCAT.
of captured foreign illegal combatants
How many have been released as harmless, now? Oops! Sorry! To say nothing of the abduction and torture of a US citizen.
and the perfectly legal liberation of Iraq pursuant to a congressional AUMF and several UN resolutions
The authorization that was supposed to give Bush the credibility he needed to pursuade the "irrelevant" UN before Bush forced the removal of the weapons inspectors? And as for UN resolutions, when do we invade Turkey and Israel?
from a tyrant who has murdered more than 300,000 of his own citizens?
from a malfunctioning Republican puppet who murdered the Kurds and the Shi'ites with the Republicans' blessings?
Your own comparison undermines your argument.
Your ignorance undermines your right to a place in the human race. You are truly ignorant enough to be a conservative.
.
You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing!
ReplyDeleteYou mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it ...
Step away from the controls, Bart. Nobody is going to ride this bus over the cliff with you at the wheel. Capice?
Glenn, it's good that you are recognising that America is becoming or perhaps already is recognised as the current century's "Nazis". However at some point you'll have to look again at US history and remove the blinkers.
ReplyDeleteI didn't say the U.S. is this century's "Nazis" and I don't believe that to be even remotely the case. And I think anyone who does believe that has something seriously wrong with their thought processes, historical perspective and/or several other faculties.
As far as I'm concerned, the U.S. was the single greatest force for good throughout the 20th century. Like all countries, it was far from perfect, but its role in defeating the Germans in World War II, the Nazis and Japanese in World War II, and worldwide Communism (which I know you love, but which I find to be as great an evil as any form of government to exist) renders its role in preserving freedom and liberty heads and shoulders above that of any other country, by far.
Please do not exagerate in your claims. Don't let yourself succumb to cheap shots. Don't let anger and hatred creep in to your arguments.
The evidence is damning enough.
This country is far from a third
world dictatorship.
I don't know what you're talking about, honestly. I didn't say that this country is "a third world dictatorship." I said that it is becoming a symbol for human rights abuses and its ability to preach democracy and freedom around the world is severely undermined by its own actions.
There are countless countries which are far worse than the U.S. in every single area. I do not think the U.S. is the root of evil in the world - not even close. But I do think that this administration has transformed this country from a superpower that commanded respect and credibility into one that is seen, on balance, as a force for disruption and aggression, and it is hardly difficult to see why that is.
Good post as always, Glenn.
ReplyDeleteThe dominant fact of life recently has been; on one hand the overwhelming torrent of bad news about the BushCo™ Badministration coming from internet sources reflecting the 'well-known liberal bias of reality', and, on the other hand the nearly absolute silence of the mainstream media on the issues that trouble our era. I call this the credibilty chasm, as gap is far too pale a word.
Not so obliquely related to your post is the article in Sunday's Boston Globe: An anti-Bush Alliance
Synopsis:A coalition of nation states (including Russia, China, Khazakstan, and three more -stans), called the Shanghai Alliance are meeting to consider the inclusion of India, Pakistan, Mongolia, and Iran. "The purpose of this collaboration is to give form to a common policy of resisting what the governments in Beijing and Moscow have come to see as an aggressive, overbearing America.
I have posted my reaction at my own blog, Friendly Neighbour, Here
It is becoming increasingly difficult to dis/cuss the current regime without drawing parallels to Germany, circa 1937. A google search of the term 'fascist America' returns an astonishing 10,600,000 hits. Only a couple of weeks ago that number was just under 8,000,000.
Even in countries with strong historical ties with the US, support for the Bush regime is exceedingly weak. Political leaders such as Tony Blair or Canada's Stephen Harper risk their own political positions to align themselves with Bush.
Hitler's greatest error was that his salient batshit craziness caused other nations to band together to oppose him. Who would have predicted a union between Great Britain, the US, and the USSR?
With Republican neocon dominance of all US institutions that would traditionally stand in the way of BushCo™'s juggernaut effectively neutered, will the international community be required to be the last bulwark against 'an aggressive overbearing America'?
See linked editorial in Kennebec Journal (Augusta ME) regarding Maine Civil Liberties suit against Verizon. Verizon is claiming "State Secret" privilege. A private (publicly traded) corporation invoking "state secrets" for not releasing info?
ReplyDeletehttp://kennebecjournal.mainetoday.com/view/columns/2760520.shtml
It just keeps getting worse.
From Bart at 2:50PM:
ReplyDelete"The use of this privilege is hardly radical and does not present any new limitations on judicial review."
The over-use of this privilege and the deliberate orchestration of events and avenues of exploration constitute both abuse and sets new limitations. We're talking about what is happening right now, Bart, not what prior Administrations have done save by way of comparisons.
"Exactly how do these alleged Brazilian crimes possibly compare to with perfectly legal interrogation (which does not fall under the definition of torture to which the US agreed) of captured foreign illegal combatants and the perfectly legal liberation of Iraq pursuant to a congressional AUMF and several UN resolutions from a tyrant who has murdered more than 300,000 of his own citizens?"
I see. So every individual currently held at Camp X-Ray and in the various 'black sites' in Eastern Europe has been tried and found to be a 'foreign illegal combatant'?
And here most press accounts I've read are stating the CIA and company have admitted the majority of them are either innocents who got caught up in the dragnet or who they simply can't make a determination one way or the other.
As for the flare-up in Brazil, keep in mind the police were dealing with what could be argued to be armed insurrection. The fact they moved swiftly to qwell the violence, overstepping the bounds of ethical or legal behavior for their jobs can and should be a matter investigated and prosecuted if need be.
By contrast, the invasion of Iraq was prompted not by any immediate threat to either the territory or critical interests of the United States. The fact the Iraqis are none too pleased with how the occupation has been going so far is perfectly understandable, as is the armed resistence.
"Your own comparison undermines your argument."
I quite agree, although I think you really should quit looking in the mirror when you talk. It leaves one to wonder about your mental stability.
The troll HWSNBN doesn't know how to click a blue clicky:
ReplyDeleteWe have gone through this before. Even the critics like Lanman above recognize that the "state secrets" evidentiary privilege is well established and long standing. The use of this privilege is hardly radical and does not present any new limitations on judicial review.
Lanman explains how its current use is new and troubling. The troll either didn't read the article or he ignored it (or is too stoopid to understand it).
Lanman also explains how the genesis of this rule in Reynolds showed the very pitfalls of this "privilege" (but this information has only recently come to light, long past the point where it could embarrass or harm the perps politically or criminally).
That at the same time as we see that the "privilege" should have been looked at askanse in the first instance, that the maladministration should be trying to expand it to completely cut off any legal investigation should be troublign to anyone with a brain. HWSNBN lacks such, though....
Cheers,
I'm sursprised that you didn't include this example as well.
ReplyDeleteMaher Arar, a Syrian-born Canadian citizen, was detained at J.F.K. Airport in September 2002 on his way home to his family in Canada. He was held in solitary confinement and interrogated without the benefit of legal counsel. The Administration labeled him a member of Al Qaeda, and rendered him, not to Canada, his home and country of citizenship, but to Syrian intelligence authorities renowned for torture.
Link
I'm sursprised that you didn't include this example as well.
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure that is the other case I referenced in the post where the Bush administration also successfully invoked the state secrets doctrine to compel dismissal of the lawsuit.
HWSNBN continues his dissembling:
ReplyDeleteDOJ is primarily using this well recognized evidentiary privilege in cases brought by legal groups without standing....
If there's an issue of standing, then they wouldn't need to invoke the SSP.
More obfuscation from the troll HWSNBN.
I won't bother to recount his initial comments on the El-Masri case here, which were just plain wrong (but possibly just uninformed; the troll probably shot off his mouth [imagine that] before actually looking at the judge's orders).
I'll repeat: Time to cut the fluff and smokesceen here, and tell the troll HWSNBN that he gets to put forth each of his lies once and no more (ala Gedaliya). One post per topic, and then he can think about what he said wrong before he tries his next prevarication. There is no "free speech" value in continuous repostings of false statements.
Cheers,
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteGrand Moff Texan said...
ReplyDeleteBart: Exactly how do these alleged Brazilian crimes possibly compare to with perfectly legal interrogation (which does not fall under the definition of torture to which the US agreed)...
Like leaving a guy to suffocate in a bucket of his own shit? Like practising flying karate kicks into a guy's chest while he's duct-taped to a chair? Like threatening them with snapping dogs?.
Glenn is referring to the policy of the United States while you are referring to criminal acts of some soldiers which have and are being criminally prosecuted. How many Brazilian police are being prosecuted for their crimes? Another telling comparison.
Bart: ...of captured foreign illegal combatants...
How many have been released as harmless, now?
Hundreds have been released after the military held combatant status hearings as required under the Geneva Conventions. Indeed, these hearings were so liberal the several released detainees returned to the battlefield against our troops in Afghanistan.
Another telling comparison with the alleged Brazilian summary executions by the police which pretty much guts the claim detainees do not get due process.
Bart: ...and the perfectly legal liberation of Iraq pursuant to a congressional AUMF and several UN resolutions...
The authorization that was supposed to give Bush the credibility he needed to pursuade the "irrelevant" UN before Bush forced the removal of the weapons inspectors?
The UN resolution supporting the Persian Gulf War, the resolutions adopting the terms of the Coalition ceasefire agreement with Iraq and several following resolutions listing the ongoing non compliance with the ceasefire agreement all authorized the use of force by the Coalition to enforce to ceasefire agreement. No further resolutions from Saddam's oil for food bribed allies were required.
Bart: ...from a tyrant who has murdered more than 300,000 of his own citizens?
from a malfunctioning Republican puppet who murdered the Kurds and the Shi'ites with the Republicans' blessings?
This is perhaps the most reprehensible and absurd of the leftist slanders in defense of Saddam's massive crimes against humanity.
Under this insanity, the US was wrong not to have intervened militarily to stop Saddam in the 80s and was wrong again to have intervened to stop saddam in 2003.
HWSNBN:
ReplyDeleteThis is highly misleading. El Masri is not a US citizen and the alleged damages did not occur in the US. Therefore, he only has a limited statutory right around US sovereign immunity to bring a civil suit.
The fact is that al Masri did not have sufficient evidence against the United States to even present a prima facie civil damages case to the court, which is a very low standard.
Ah, IC. The troll still hasn't read the judge's orders. He just makes sh*te up to correspond to his perverted 'legal theories'....
May as well be arguing with a famed "criminal prosecutor" from Pluto....
Cheers,
Bart said "...(which does not fall under the definition of torture to which the US agreed)..."
ReplyDeleteFUCK what technical legal definition the US agreed to...ANY physical or psychological abuse of a prisoner under one's control and in one's keeping is torture, pure and simple.
It is simply NOT ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR to even so much as slap or punch a captive who is kept in restraints and is helpless to fend off the blows. I'm not talking about "legal" definitions, I'm talking about purely humane, civilized behavior. Any apologia for such behavior as we have been party to expresses the thinking of a barbarian and a brute. That those under our detention may even--some of them--be proved to be guilty of barbaric behavior themselves DOES NOT justify our abuse of them. The Constitution's prohibition of "cruel and unusual punishment" applies not merely to accused criminals but to those convicted of crimes, and even though you will say we have no legal obligation to apply Constitutional standards to foreign nationals, it is more than mere legalism...it is the expression by the founders of a philosophical idea...that there are behaviors which civilized, free people do NOT countenance.
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, et al have already demonstrated they are criminals and barbarians, and so, Bart, have you in your approval of their barbarism.
From Bart at 3:40PM:
ReplyDelete"This is perhaps the most reprehensible and absurd of the leftist slanders in defense of Saddam's massive crimes against humanity."
Who's defending Hussein? Texan's comment simply noted he came to power under the Nixon and Ford Administrations, was armed and heavily supported by the Reagan Administration, and committed his worst atrocities with the full knowledge and silent support under the Reagan and early in the Bush41 Administrations.
Geez. Can't even point out simple history to some people.
"Under this insanity, the US was wrong not to have intervened militarily to stop Saddam in the 80s and was wrong again to have intervened to stop saddam in 2003."
Obviously you don't consider the larger context when pipping up, do you?
Thanks to Reagan's (barely intelligent) brinkmanship and renewing the Cold War, Hussein was useful to US foreign policy in the region during the 1980s. Certainly he kept Iran busy with that spiteful, meaningless war for most of the decade. Armed intervention at that point and in that context would have truly been insane.
It was only when Gorbechev was busy reforming and opening up the USSR, unintentionally weakening it in the process, coincidentially when Hussein decided to try his little land-grab in 1991 that he ceased to be 'useful', and therefore the US could move to first contain, then isolate him and Iraq.
The 2003 invasion, by contrast, has no rational or strategic rationale beyond serving the emotional and intellectual vanity of current occupants of the West Wing.
Sorry, I didn't read far enough down the 2nd time through. It's still a good link for your readers to follow.
ReplyDeleteIn the court of the Crimson King
ReplyDeleteOn soft gray mornings widows cry
The wise men share a joke;
I run to grasp divining signs
To satisfy the hoax.
The yellow jester does not play
But gently pulls the strings
And smiles as the puppets dance
In the court of the crimson king
....Greg Lake et al
"We stand for good health care."?
ReplyDeleteWTF???
Robert1014 said...
ReplyDeleteBart said "...(which does not fall under the definition of torture to which the US agreed)..."
FUCK what technical legal definition the US agreed to...ANY physical or psychological abuse of a prisoner under one's control and in one's keeping is torture, pure and simple.
That is not a definition. How do you define "abuse?" I might feel that I am being "mentally abused" if my detainers played hip hop music.
It is simply NOT ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR to even so much as slap or punch a captive who is kept in restraints and is helpless to fend off the blows.
Good thing then that physical beatings are not one of the coercive interrogation techniques approved by DoD.
The Constitution's prohibition of "cruel and unusual punishment" applies not merely to accused criminals but to those convicted of crimes, and even though you will say we have no legal obligation to apply Constitutional standards to foreign nationals, it is more than mere legalism...it is the expression by the founders of a philosophical idea...that there are behaviors which civilized, free people do NOT countenance.
Actually, I would point out that foreign enemy combatants in a war do not enjoy our constitutional criminal justice rights.
Foreigners tried as criminals in our country do enjoy these rights.
That hardly makes us "barbarians." The US has never extended the constitutional rights of criminal defendants to enemy POWs, nevertheless illegal combatant terrorists.
HWSNBN lies once again:
ReplyDeleteDOJ has never made such an argument. El Masri's case was dismissed for lack of evidence.
Nonsense. Flat-out wrong.
And HWSNBN proves he's either a sadist or he hasn't read the judges order:
Exactly how do these alleged Brazilian crimes possibly compare to with perfectly legal interrogation (which does not fall under the definition of torture to which the US agreed) of captured foreign illegal combatants and the perfectly legal liberation of Iraq pursuant to a congressional AUMF and several UN resolutions from a tyrant who has murdered more than 300,000 of his own citizens?
And just a little FYI for for the reality-challenged HWSNBN:
Even the maladministration has as much as admitted that El-Masri was not an "captured foreign illegal combatant[]". (Long) after they figured out they had the wrong man, they finally dumped him on the side of the road in Albania without so much as a fare-the-well or a dollar to call a cab. HWSNBN needs to actually read something besides Freeper.com....
Cheers,
And, of course, like a good "officer of the court," Bart avoids speaking to the point I made explicitly: that the Constitution is more than merely a legal document, but a philosophical expression of acceptable behavior. And YES, to the extent our not extending Constitutional protections to foreign enemy combatants results in their being abused, tortured, or otherwise treated as you or I would not prefer to be treated by captors, that does make us barbarians.
ReplyDeleteGiven the revelation of these past few years, the fact of our barbarism is not even a matter for debate.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 3:40PM: "This is perhaps the most reprehensible and absurd of the leftist slanders in defense of Saddam's massive crimes against humanity."
Who's defending Hussein?
This slander was being used as an argument against removing Hussein from power.
Texan's comment simply noted he came to power under the Nixon and Ford Administration...
So what? He seized power with the help of the Sunni dominated military. We didn't place him there.
...was armed and heavily supported by the Reagan Administration...
This is a flat out lie.
Russia was Iraq's primary arms source followed distantly by France and Germany.
The Russians, French and Germans supplied almost all of Iraq's WMD materials and initial expertise. Indeed, recently translated Iraqi documents indicated that Iraq's Russian WMD scientists were dodging UN inspectors just before the war.
http://rayrobison.typepad.com/ray_robison/2006/03/russian_scienti.html
...and committed his worst atrocities with the full knowledge and silent support under the Reagan and early in the Bush41 Administrations
What silent support? This is the slimiest slander by the left.
Bart: "Under this insanity, the US was wrong not to have intervened militarily to stop Saddam in the 80s and was wrong again to have intervened to stop saddam in 2003."
Obviously you don't consider the larger context when pipping up, do you?
Thanks to Reagan's (barely intelligent) brinkmanship and renewing the Cold War, Hussein was useful to US foreign policy in the region during the 1980s. Certainly he kept Iran busy with that spiteful, meaningless war for most of the decade. Armed intervention at that point and in that context would have truly been insane.
Strange, it was Saddam who invaded Iran to conquer a disputed oil rich border area and murdered a million men on both sides in the process, including through the use of chemical weapons.
I agree that military intervention by the US to stop this would have been insane. We had our hands full winning the Cold War.
was wondering if anyone has done a blog on the state secrets issue. Particularly interested in a survey of cases and principles. Does this exist?
ReplyDeleteHey Bart,
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you check out our own declassified documents? Remember the Rummy Handshake? The Reagan people overlooked his atrocities - his using WMDs on civilians - in order to pimp a pipeline deal for Bechtel.
Here are the documents:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/index.htm
The same players are back at it again, with the hands in the pot. The more you examine history, the more apparent that not much has changed since 911.
here's the full link
ReplyDeletewww.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/
NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/index.htm
bart said:
ReplyDeleteAs you well know, the Constitution trumps any and all statutes.
bart, is the FISA law un-Constitutional? You implied it in a previous post, and you declined to answer when I asked for a clear answer.
Can you please clarify? Is the FISA law, in your opinion, un-Constitutional?
shooter242 said:
ReplyDeleteI'd prefer that the representatives of Americans know [if the nominated CIA Director intends to engage in waterboarding], rather than the entire world...
My questions still stand unanswered, shooter. If you believe the McCain Amendment has already told "the world" that we do not engage in waterboarding, then why are you concerned with "the world" finding out what General Hayden has to say about waterboarding? If you think we've already sent the message, then what's the big deal about demanding our future CIA director reiterate that message under oath?
Bart said, "This slander was being used as an argument against removing Hussein from power."
ReplyDeleteThe most relevant argument for our not removing him from power is that we lacked any legal basis to do so...no matter whether the result was the sunny Shangri-La fabricated for public consumption by Rumsfeld, et al, the war would still have been a crime. Of course, as is so often the case with crimes committed in hopes of munificent reward, the reality has been grim, brutal, and a real karmic boot up the ass of its perpetrators.
Arne Langsetmo said...
ReplyDeleteHWSNBN lies once again: DOJ has never made such an argument. El Masri's case was dismissed for lack of evidence.
Nonsense. Flat-out wrong.
And HWSNBN proves he's either a sadist or he hasn't read the judges order:
I have read the judges order, but you apparently have not or simply do not understand it.
El Masri filed a civil complaint alleging that unknown men detained and tortured him and that these men were part of a CIA rendition program.
However, the order notes that El Masri did not offer a scrap of evidence to back up his claim that these men were agents of the United States, only his allegations and media reports derived from his allegations.
The government filed a motion asserting the "state secrets" evidentiary privilege and sought to dismiss the case because there was no claim without disclosure of classified information.
The Court granted this motion in its entirety holding that the case can only proceed if the Government is compelled to disclose classified materials in it answer then in later discovery.
Because el Masri did not come into court with evidence (not mere allegations) which create a prima facie case that the unidentified men he alleged abused him were agents of the US and was relying upon government disclosure of classified information to proceed, the case was dismissed.
How much is debate "cheapened" on this board when bart and shooter242 decide to:
ReplyDelete1. throw bulls--t on the wall to see what sticks
2. refuse to back up their claims with facts and/or refuse to answer legitimate questions about their claims
3. wait a day for Glenn to post something new, in order to throw more bulls--t on the wall to see what sticks
4. wash, rinse, repeat...
bart and shooter242, you may perceive this as a personal cheapshot, but that's just too damn bad. You haven't held yourselves accountable for the things you've said in the past, and that's dishonest and lazy.
This community deserves better, and Glenn deserves better.
From Bart at 4:10PM:
ReplyDelete"This is a flat out lie."
Is it?
"Russia was Iraq's primary arms source followed distantly by France and Germany."
"The Russians, French and Germans supplied almost all of Iraq's WMD materials and initial expertise. Indeed, recently translated Iraqi documents indicated that Iraq's Russian WMD scientists were dodging UN inspectors just before the war."
http://rayrobison.typepad.com/ray_robison/2006/03/russian
That would be far more impressive and persuasive if you didn't depend so much upon a single source.
"What silent support? This is the slimiest slander by the left."
No, its a recognition that the DIA and the Pentagon were fully aware of his use of chemical battlefield weapons on the Kurdish enclaves in northern Iraq and against the Iranian army, and there was neither a sense of urgency nor even mild concern from it.
Additionally, I don't recall a single protest being raised by the White House or the State Department over the issue at the time. Silent support, if only by omission of protest.
"Strange, it was Saddam who invaded Iran to conquer a disputed oil rich border area and murdered a million men on both sides in the process, including through the use of chemical weapons."
Bravo, you understand my point.
"I agree that military intervention by the US to stop this would have been insane. We had our hands full winning the Cold War."
Or perhaps you don't.
Bart, look at a map of the region. Then examine the geopolitical landscape of the time. Then give consideration to the logistics that would have been required. Then consider again this was at the height of the Cold War and both the US and USSR had a lot of nuclear missiles aimed at one another and MAD was still the doctrine of the day.
Armed intervention under those conditions was neither practical, rational, nor sane. The USSR wouldn't have stood for it, interpreting it as a regional land-grab by Washington, and the logistics would have difficult if not impossible to work out to move and supply a force of sufficient size to actually topple Hussein and stabilize the country (as we are learning to our cost today).
Hussein was a monster and his regime deserved to be destroyed, no argument there.
But I daresay we had more immediate and strategically-significant priorites in March of 2003 to focus on, Bin Laden among them, than a punative expedition into Baghdad. Sadly, the Bush Administration decided the other way.
bart said:
ReplyDeleteThis is perhaps the most reprehensible and absurd of the leftist slanders in defense of Saddam's massive crimes against humanity.
Just out of curiosity, bart, but do you know what Saddam Hussein is on trial for? Can you name the specific charges, and when these crimes occurred?
For example, is he on trial for the gassing of the Kurdish population? Or the gassing of the Iranian army during the Iran-Iraq War?
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteHey Bart, Why don't you check out our own declassified documents? Remember the Rummy Handshake?
Yes. Reagan also shook hands with the leader of the Soviet police state as well. That hardly means that we supported that police state.
The Reagan people overlooked his atrocities - his using WMDs on civilians - in order to pimp a pipeline deal for Bechtel.
Here are the documents:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/index.htm
These documents indicated that the US was staying neutral in the war between the blood soaked regimes of Iraq and Iran. They also indicate that the US would keep a close eye on the use of chemical weapons by Iraq but would not intervene because of "the low probability of achieving desired results." In short, our military was deployed elsewhere to support the Cold War.
There is no evidence whatsoever in those documents to support the slander that the US armed Iraq or encouraged their use of WMD.
If your criticism is that the US did not militarily stop Iraqi war crimes back in the 80s, exactly what is your objection to the intervention in 2003?
cfaller96 said...
ReplyDeletebart said: As you well know, the Constitution trumps any and all statutes.
bart, is the FISA law un-Constitutional? You implied it in a previous post, and you declined to answer when I asked for a clear answer.
To the extent that FISA is held to require warrants for the gathering of intelligence against foreign groups and their agents, it is an unconstitutional attempt to limit or eliminate the President's Article II powers.
For general gathering of criminal evidence, it is perfectly constitutional and a very useful tool.
yankeependragon said...
ReplyDeleteFrom Bart at 4:10PM: "Russia was Iraq's primary arms source followed distantly by France and Germany."
"The Russians, French and Germans supplied almost all of Iraq's WMD materials and initial expertise. Indeed, recently translated Iraqi documents indicated that Iraq's Russian WMD scientists were dodging UN inspectors just before the war."
http://rayrobison.typepad.com/ray_robison/2006/03/russian
That would be far more impressive and persuasive if you didn't depend so much upon a single source.
My citation to the captured document is only to support my allegation that Iraq was using Russian nuclear scientists in their nuclear weapons program just before the war.
The fact that Iraq was using Soviet weapons with a few Euro contributions is well documented. I can offer myself as a first person source because I fought against these weapons during the Persian Gulf War and then provided security while the engineers blew up 100s of tons more of these captured weapons after the ceasefire. Not an American weapon in the lot.
"What silent support? This is the slimiest slander by the left."
No, its a recognition that the DIA and the Pentagon were fully aware of his use of chemical battlefield weapons on the Kurdish enclaves in northern Iraq and against the Iranian army, and there was neither a sense of urgency nor even mild concern from it.
Support, silent or no, is an affirmative act. There was no moral or substantive support for Iran using chemical weapons.
Via Defense Tech:
ReplyDelete[F]rom an interview that First Amendment lawyer Floyd Abrams did on Charlie Rose's show the other night. Abrams, it turns out, was on a privacy panel overseeing TIA [Total Information Awareness]:
We basically said if you want to engage in data mining, which we said was a very good way to gather information to fight terrorism, you should go to the FISA court to get permission...
The panel presented its conclusions to Secretary Rumsfeld--who, it might be noted, is also a boss the NSA, since it's a military agency. Rummy thanked them, got some good P.R. and sent them on their way.
Asked by guest host Brian Ross, "Do you feel used?" Floyd said:
[I]t's one thing to be on a commission and then be ignored. That's --that's life. But not even to be told that the government was then engaged in the very activities that we were writing about does seem as if we were being used, yes.
Bart said:
ReplyDelete"There is no evidence whatsoever in those documents to support the slander that the US armed Iraq or encouraged their use of WMD."
Sounds like a strawman argument. I didn't say the US "armed" or "encouraged use of WMD".
I simply pointed out how the Reagan administration looked the other way while Saddam brutalized his people
and used WMDS. At that time, making money for Bechtel and other well connected interests trumped human rights, democracy and freedom.
bart: Support, silent or no, is an affirmative act. There was no moral or substantive support for Iran using chemical weapons.
ReplyDeleteWikipedia says:
U.S.-Iraqi arms transfers in the war
Western support for Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war has clearly been established. The United States, the Soviet Union, West Germany, France, many western companies, and Britain provided military support and even components of Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction program. The role the United States played in the war against Iran however, although present to some degree, is not as well known.
After the revolution, with the Ayatollahs in power and levels of enmity between Iran and the U.S. running high, early on during the Iran-Iraq war, realpolitikers in Washington came to the conclusion that Saddām was the lesser of the two evils, and hence efforts to support Iraq became the order of the day, both during the long war with Iran and afterward. This led to what later became known as the Iraq-gate scandals.
Much of what Iraq received from the West, however, were not arms per se, but so-called dual-use technology— mainframe computers, armored ambulances, helicopters, chemicals, and the like, with potential civilian uses as well as military applications. It is now known that a vast network of companies, based in the U.S. and elsewhere, fed Iraq's warring capabilities right up until August 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait [15].
The "Iraq-gate" scandal revealed that an Atlanta branch of Italy's largest bank, Banca Nazionale del Lavoro, relying partially on U.S. taxpayer-guaranteed loans, funneled $5 billion to Iraq from 1985 to 1989. In August 1989, when FBI agents finally raided the Atlanta branch of BNL, the branch manager, Christopher Drogoul, was charged with making unauthorized, clandestine, and illegal loans to Iraq—some of which, according to his indictment, were used to purchase arms and weapons technology.
Shooter242 said...
ReplyDelete"And why is that? Because Republicans have won three elections in a row. From the looks of things it's going to be four this November."
Yup, I'd say y'all got a real winning strategy for the fall there Shooter:
Let the RNC run the fall election on the issue of saving Bush's neck. ''This election isn't about you,'' Republican candidates would say, ''or your jobs, your skyrocketing health care and gas costs or your stagnant incomes. And it's not about the country being mired in a costly occupation of Iraq, saddled with record foreign debt, accelerating outsourcing and a $1 trillion trade deficit this year alone. No, this election is about George Bush. Vote to protect him and Dick Cheney from accountability. Vote Republican. We may not do much for you, but we'll keep George Bush and Dick Cheney above the law.''
bart said:
ReplyDeleteTo the extent that FISA is held to require warrants for the gathering of intelligence against foreign groups and their agents, it is an unconstitutional attempt to limit or eliminate the President's Article II powers.
For general gathering of criminal evidence, it is perfectly constitutional and a very useful tool.
Okay, several questions:
1. What is a "foreign group or agent" in your mind? How is the definition of a "foreign group or agent" established?
2. What is the difference between "requiring warrants for the gathering of intelligence against foreign groups and their agents" and "general gathering of criminal evidence"?
3. Did Presidents Carter, Bush Sr., and Clinton make the argument you just made?
shooter242 said:
ReplyDelete...Because Republicans have won three elections in a row. From the looks of things it's going to be four this November...
Here is an interesting (and faulty) assumption: that reelection constitutes support of any given policy embraced by the Republican Party.
But if that is right, shooter242, then logically doesn't the opposite hold true if Republicans lose the majority this fall?
In other words, if Democrats take back the House, does that mean Republicans (and you) are wrong? You seem to imply that Republicans are right because they keep getting reelected, so I'm just wondering...
HWSNBN continues dishonestly:
ReplyDelete[HWSNBN]: DOJ has never made such an argument. El Masri's case was dismissed for lack of evidence.
[Arne]: Nonsense. Flat-out wrong.
Just for the record, and for the dead-of-brain here such as HWSNBN:
From the judge's order:
"At issue is whether the assertion of the state secrets privilege by the United States is valid, and if so, whether this privilege prevents the case from proceeding."
IOW, HWSBN is once again completely full'o'shite.
[Arne]: And HWSNBN proves he's either a sadist or he hasn't read the judges order:
HWSBNN snips his own comment about comparing Brazil to "perfectly legal interrogations" of "captured foreign illegal combatants", in the context of the discussion of El-Masri!!!:
"Exactly how do these alleged Brazilian crimes possibly compare to with perfectly legal interrogation (which does not fall under the definition of torture to which the US agreed) of captured foreign illegal combatants and the perfectly legal liberation of Iraq pursuant to a congressional AUMF and several UN resolutions from a tyrant who has murdered more than 300,000 of his own citizens?"
Ignoring the feces HWSNBN throws at the wall about AUMFs and UN resolutions about Iraq (WTF was HWSNBN thinking? What's this case got to do with Iraq?), he's clearly implying that El-Masri was an "illegal combatant" "legally interrogated". Here's the allegations (which HWSNBN obviously didn't read, either that of he's a sadist):
"They forced El-Masri to make a statement that he had not been mistreated by his captors, and would shortly be flown back to Germany. After his captors videotaped this statement, El-Masri states that he was blindfolded and driven to what sounded like an airstrip approximately one hour from Skopje. Still blindfolded, he alleges he was led to a building where he was beaten, stripped of his clothing, and sodomized with a foreign object. He further alleges he was dragged naked to a corner of the room where his captors removed his blindfold only for him to be blinded again by a camera's flash. When he regained his sight, he claims he saw seven or eight men dressed in black and wearing black ski masks. El-Masri cntends that these men were members of a CIA 'black renditions' team, operating pursuant to unlawful CIA policies at the direction of defendant Tenet."
And that's just the beginning of El-Masri's tale of abuse.
Note for doubters of his veracity: He filed his claim against the owners of the airplane that "rendered" him off to Afghanistan (a U.S. company). There's independent records of the flight. And his account is similar to that of others as well. Then we have the Abu Ghraib pictures that make undeniable that these types of abuses are happening....
Even the maladministration pretty much admits he was not an "illegal combatant" ... it was a case of mistaken identity; getting the names mixed up. Much later (considerably after he alleges that the CIA and Condi Rice were aware of the fact the CIA had goofed the name), he was finally flown to Albania, and dumped on the side of the road to make his own way back to Germany.
But HWSNBN refers to this as "legal interrogation" of a "illegal combatant". Talk about not reading the opinion.... And what is it with this fascination for brutal sexual perversion amongst U.S. interrogators, anyway?
[HWSNBN]: I have read the judges order, but you apparently have not or simply do not understand it.
Go tell someone who will believe you, Bart. You know, some complete eedjit that's living under a rock with a bottle in hand. Oh, sorry, that'd be you....
HWSNBN obviously didn't read the opinion, or he wouldn't have said the absurd things he said above, or things like this:
[HWSNBN]: Good thing then that physical beatings are not one of the coercive interrogation techniques approved by DoD.
Let me fix the typo there:
"Good thing then that physical beatings that result in death or organ failure, at least most of the time, are not one of the coercive interrogation techniques approved by DoD. OTOH...."
That describes the policies described by El-Masri, and that we're seeing (or would see, if the maladministration didn't use a bogus SSP like in Reynolds to quash any hint of light into its malevolent practises).
El-Masris not the first to allege physical beatings. Matter of fact, there have been people beaten to death in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
Then there's this absolute gibberish:
[HWSNBN]: El Masri is not a US citizen and the alleged damages did not occur in the US. Therefore, he only has a limited statutory right around US sovereign immunity to bring a civil suit.
The judge explained under what grounds El-Masri was suing. The phrase "limited statutory right" is just plain wrong in this context: The statutory (and constitutional) bases for the suit was explained, and were not under dispute. HWSNBNB's term "limited statutory right" is just pure bafflegab.
But back to HWSNBN's subsequent lies:
El Masri filed a civil complaint alleging that unknown men detained and tortured him and that these men were part of a CIA rendition program.
However, the order notes that El Masri did not offer a scrap of evidence to back up his claim that these men were agents of the United States, only his allegations and media reports derived from his allegations.
The order does no such thing. HWSNBN is lying again. In fact, there's plenty of evidence for many of the allegations in El-Masri's claims (including the flight records of the plane he says transported him). From the order: "In his complaint, El-Masri alleges that documentary evidence supports his recollection. He claims aviation documents show that late on the evening of January 23, 2004, a Boeing business jet owned by defendant Premier Executive Transport Services and operated by defendant Aero Contractors Limited flew from Skopje, Macedonia to Kabul, Afghanistan with a brief stop in Baghdad Iraq. This documnetary evidence is attached..."
Not to mention the fact that "criminal prosecutor" Mr. DePalma here should know that opposition to a 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss or motion for summary judgement doesn't require evidence be presented; for purposes of the motion, the facts are presumed as alleged by the non-moving party. You know, this is first year law school stuff. HWSNBN truly has eedjits for clients (if he has any).
But funny about the parts of the order that HWSNBN leaves out.... You know, things like beatings and sodomy. I get the feeling that HWSNBN kind of likes those parts ... but he ain't gonna admit it in public.
Cheers,
This makes me so angry! I wish I could do something about this travesty, this light which we, as americans are viewed in now makes me so sad.
ReplyDeleteIn addition to the Angry Left, watch for the Immoral Left. Look for the quote from Sarah Brown at http://www6.lexisnexis.com/publisher/EndUser?Action=UserDisplayFullDocument&orgId=2653&topicId=100020589&docId=l:383478903&start=1.
ReplyDeleteThe whole article's worthwhile, by the way, not least because it quotes an editorial published in HUMAN EVENTS articulating the disgusting notion that poor people should suffer consequences for indulging in sex.
I'm just wondering, in all of the arguments in defense of Bush's power supposedly granted by Article II-- is there a single law extant anywhere in the world to which the President is subject? Or is he, as some (I'm looking over at you, Bart) seem to be arguing, above all laws-- foreign and domestic, state and federal, past and present? Do you also think he should wear a giant crown of jewels and carry a Holy scepter? Where exactly is there a line, if any?
ReplyDeletecynic librarian said...
ReplyDeleteVia Defense Tech:
[F]rom an interview that First Amendment lawyer Floyd Abrams did on Charlie Rose's show the other night. Abrams, it turns out, was on a privacy panel overseeing TIA [Total Information Awareness]:
We basically said if you want to engage in data mining, which we said was a very good way to gather information to fight terrorism, you should go to the FISA court to get permission...
The panel presented its conclusions to Secretary Rumsfeld--who, it might be noted, is also a boss the NSA, since it's a military agency. Rummy thanked them, got some good P.R. and sent them on their way.
Asked by guest host Brian Ross, "Do you feel used?" Floyd said:
[I]t's one thing to be on a commission and then be ignored. That's --that's life. But not even to be told that the government was then engaged in the very activities that we were writing about does seem as if we were being used, yes.
:::rolls eyes:::
Maybe Sec Def ignored this advice because it is nonsensical.
Data mining in publicly sold data information like telephone, utility, shopping billing information is analysis of data, not surveillance of electronic communications. FISA has no bearing on this kind of analysis.
Bart,
ReplyDeleteI live in São Paulo, which Glenn mentioned. I believe I can see what he is pointing at.
Basically, after the shock and awe of the PCC's strikes, the police, along with many, many people here, went on "kill them all" mode. Normally educated people were preaching for arme dinvasion of poor neighborhood, rounding up anyone who looked suspect and either killing them or locking them up for good.
Any voices advocating moderation and sticking to the rule of law and human rights were (and are) viewed as thug-symps. After all, they are scum. You wouldn't want to uphold their 'rights' when so many people lost the right to even LIVE, right? What if it had been your borther of wife they killed?
That incensed "it's ok to skip the rules to get the bad guys" rethoric even escalated to the point of some people advocating genocide of the "favelas", the terminally poor neighborhoods the gangs (though the PCC is WAY more than a gang) use as hideouts and strongholds, and where millions of people live.
Run around Little Green Footballs and you can find that sentiment replicated. Terrorists have no rights; ergo, those suspected of being terrorists also don't get any. It's the classical slippery slope.
I suggest you read about the "Rota 66" case, if you can find it in english; basically, the police had its own extermination program here, killing people for carrying pot, for petty burglary or for being brown or black; it went on for a long time, with the implicit approval of most of society...until one rich kid that liked to dress 'black' got murdered. then, suddenly, everyone turned back to being a pious humanist.
The administration also just used the same tactic to compel dismissal of a lawsuit brought by Khalid El-Masri, a German citizen who alleges -- with the support of German prosecutors -- that the U.S. Government abducted him, drugged him, flew him to multiple different torture-using countries as part of the administration's "rendition" program, only to then release him after five months when the U.S. realized it had abducted the wrong person.
ReplyDeleteWhen the terrorists set off a nuke in an American city, you're going to wonder why the rest of us aren't quite as sympathetic as we were come Sept. 11th.
From Phoenician in a time of Romans at 10:02PM:
ReplyDelete"When the terrorists set off a nuke in an American city, you're going to wonder why the rest of us aren't quite as sympathetic as we were come Sept. 11th."
Should it ever come to that, we'll have the Republicans to thank for leaving our port unsecured, wasting our military and intelligence assets in Iraq, cutting funds for nonproliferation, and generally acting as a mass recruiting tool for Al Qaeda and company.
In other words, don't expect the rest of us to have any sympathy for the Elephants.
cynic librarian said...
ReplyDeletebart: Support, silent or no, is an affirmative act. There was no moral or substantive support for Iran using chemical weapons.
Wikipedia says:
Before we begin, look for the bait and switch method used by this author where he makes a broad charge which he claims is common knowledge but which is not supported by the following evidence.
This is a very common method used in NYT and AP hit pieces.
U.S.-Iraqi arms transfers in the war
Western support for Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war has clearly been established. The United States, the Soviet Union, West Germany, France, many western companies, and Britain provided military support and even components of Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction program. The role the United States played in the war against Iran however, although present to some degree, is not as well known.
Note how the author's opening statement distinguishes between countries and western companies, implying that he is speaking about the government when he refers to the United States and not merely US companies.
However, he does not provide any evidence whatsoever of US government support for Iraq's WMD programs.
Much of what Iraq received from the West, however, were not arms per se, but so-called dual-use technology— mainframe computers, armored ambulances, helicopters, chemicals, and the like, with potential civilian uses as well as military applications.
The author is already backtracking from the lie implicit in the title of this piece - U.S.-Iraqi arms transfers in the war. There were no arms transfers from the US to Iraq.
It is now known that a vast network of companies, based in the U.S. and elsewhere, fed Iraq's warring capabilities right up until August 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait [15].
Here is where the author admits the lie in his opening paragraph, which implied that the US government provided WMD materials to Iraq.
The "Iraq-gate" scandal revealed that an Atlanta branch of Italy's largest bank, Banca Nazionale del Lavoro, relying partially on U.S. taxpayer-guaranteed loans, funneled $5 billion to Iraq from 1985 to 1989. In August 1989, when FBI agents finally raided the Atlanta branch of BNL, the branch manager, Christopher Drogoul, was charged with making unauthorized, clandestine, and illegal loans to Iraq—some of which, according to his indictment, were used to purchase arms and weapons technology.
Now we learn that part of the financing was illegally performed by an Italian bank. Apart from the fact that this bank defrauded the US government of subsidies, this has nothing to do with the United States.
cfaller96 said...
ReplyDeletebart said: To the extent that FISA is held to require warrants for the gathering of intelligence against foreign groups and their agents, it is an unconstitutional attempt to limit or eliminate the President's Article II powers.
For general gathering of criminal evidence, it is perfectly constitutional and a very useful tool.
cfaller96: Okay, several questions:
1. What is a "foreign group or agent" in your mind? How is the definition of a "foreign group or agent" established?
A foreign group is either state or non state actor of two or more persons.
An agent is a person acting on behalf of the group.
2. What is the difference between "requiring warrants for the gathering of intelligence against foreign groups and their agents" and "general gathering of criminal evidence"?
I think you are asking what is the difference between gathering criminal evidence and gathering intelligence.
Gathering criminal evidence is simply gathering evidence for admission against a defendant in a criminal trial and is usually performed by or at the behest of law enforcement agencies. For example, if Justice requested that NSA tap a telephone of a suspected traitor for admission in a criminal trial of that traitor, that is collection of criminal evidence even though NSA is doing the actual physical collection.
In contrast, intelligence gathering pretty much covers everything else so long as it is directed against a foreign group and it agents in the US.
3. Did Presidents Carter, Bush Sr., and Clinton make the argument you just made?
Carter was the moron who agreed to give away some of his Article II powers by signing FISA.
Clinton made a very similar argument to search the home of Aldrich Ames.
I have no idea what George I may have done.
Arne the Liar said...
ReplyDeleteBart: DOJ has never made such an argument. El Masri's case was dismissed for lack of evidence.
[Arne]: Nonsense. Flat-out wrong.
Just for the record, and for the dead-of-brain here such as HWSNBN:
From the judge's order:
"At issue is whether the assertion of the state secrets privilege by the United States is valid, and if so, whether this privilege prevents the case from proceeding."
As I explained, el Masri had no evidence of his own to proceed to trial. He was relying completely on classified information provided by the government in its answer and in discovery. Once the judge properly applied the "state secrets" privilege, el Masri was left with no case.
On the other hand, if el Masri had any substantial admissible evidence identifying the men who allegedly detained him as agents of the United States, he could have proceeded to trial even without being able to discover classified materials possessed by the government.
This is the last time I explain this to you. Stop lying.
HWSBNN snips his own comment about comparing Brazil to "perfectly legal interrogations" of "captured foreign illegal combatants", in the context of the discussion of El-Masri!!!:
"Exactly how do these alleged Brazilian crimes possibly compare to with perfectly legal interrogation (which does not fall under the definition of torture to which the US agreed) of captured foreign illegal combatants and the perfectly legal liberation of Iraq pursuant to a congressional AUMF and several UN resolutions from a tyrant who has murdered more than 300,000 of his own citizens?"
Lie #2. Do you see me allege anywhere that el Masri is an illegal enemy combatant or even mention el Masri?
Note for doubters of his veracity: He filed his claim against the owners of the airplane that "rendered" him off to Afghanistan (a U.S. company). There's independent records of the flight. And his account is similar to that of others as well. Then we have the Abu Ghraib pictures that make undeniable that these types of abuses are happening....
This is not evidence that the men who allegedly kidnapped him were agents of the US, that either them or he were on this flight or that el Masri was tortured.
el Masri does not allege he was sent to Abu Ghraib, thus these photos are irrelevant and inadmissible as evidence.
bart: Good thing then that physical beatings are not one of the coercive interrogation techniques approved by DoD.
Let me fix the typo there:
"Good thing then that physical beatings that result in death or organ failure, at least most of the time, are not one of the coercive interrogation techniques approved by DoD. OTOH...."
Lie #3. Nothing like that is among the interrogation techniques approved by DoD.
Bart: El Masri is not a US citizen and the alleged damages did not occur in the US. Therefore, he only has a limited statutory right around US sovereign immunity to bring a civil suit.
The judge explained under what grounds El-Masri was suing. The phrase "limited statutory right" is just plain wrong in this context: The statutory (and constitutional) bases for the suit was explained, and were not under dispute. HWSNBNB's term "limited statutory right" is just pure bafflegab.
This is probably ignorance and not a lie.
Normally, a citizen or non citizen may not sue the government under the doctrine of sovereign immunity. Congress has enacted a statute allowing civil suits against the government under limited circumstances.
Bart: El Masri filed a civil complaint alleging that unknown men detained and tortured him and that these men were part of a CIA rendition program.
However, the order notes that El Masri did not offer a scrap of evidence to back up his claim that these men were agents of the United States, only his allegations and media reports derived from his allegations.
From the order: "In his complaint, El-Masri alleges that documentary evidence supports his recollection. He claims aviation documents show that late on the evening of January 23, 2004, a Boeing business jet owned by defendant Premier Executive Transport Services and operated by defendant Aero Contractors Limited flew from Skopje, Macedonia to Kabul, Afghanistan with a brief stop in Baghdad Iraq. This documnetary evidence is attached..."
Which part of "El Masri did not offer a scrap of evidence to back up his claim that these men were agents of the United States" did you not comprehend? Flight information is not evidence that these men were agents of the United States.
Next time you get called for jury duty, you can legitimately tell the judge that you should be excused because you are too stupid to understand basic evidence.
Not to mention the fact that "criminal prosecutor" Mr. DePalma here should know that opposition to a 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss or motion for summary judgement doesn't require evidence be presented; for purposes of the motion, the facts are presumed as alleged by the non-moving party. You know, this is first year law school stuff. HWSNBN truly has eedjits for clients (if he has any).
You are half right.
Motions to dismiss take the allegations in the complaint as fact for the purposes of the motion.
However, motions for summary judgment require the submission of proof of sufficient evidence to make out a prima facie claim. This is usually done through affidavits.
Although this motion is fashioned as a motion to dismiss, it is really more akin to a motion for summary judgment because the government is seeking to bar discovery and then claims that there would be insufficient evidence to proceed.
But funny about the parts of the order that HWSNBN leaves out.... You know, things like beatings and sodomy. I get the feeling that HWSNBN kind of likes those parts ... but he ain't gonna admit it in public.
That is because these parts are irrelevant to the motion at hand. El Masri himself can testify to this. The issue addressed by the motion is whether agents of the US were involved.
e_five said...
ReplyDeleteI'm just wondering, in all of the arguments in defense of Bush's power supposedly granted by Article II-- is there a single law extant anywhere in the world to which the President is subject? Or is he, as some (I'm looking over at you, Bart) seem to be arguing, above all laws-- foreign and domestic, state and federal, past and present? Do you also think he should wear a giant crown of jewels and carry a Holy scepter? Where exactly is there a line, if any?
The President is subject to virtually the entire federal criminal code so long as it does not seek to limit or eliminate an Article II power.
See the Articles of Impeachment against Nixon and Clinton for several examples.
F. Jardim said...
ReplyDeleteBart, I live in São Paulo, which Glenn mentioned. I believe I can see what he is pointing at.
Basically, after the shock and awe of the PCC's strikes, the police, along with many, many people here, went on "kill them all" mode. Normally educated people were preaching for arme dinvasion of poor neighborhood, rounding up anyone who looked suspect and either killing them or locking them up for good.
Any voices advocating moderation and sticking to the rule of law and human rights were (and are) viewed as thug-symps. After all, they are scum. You wouldn't want to uphold their 'rights' when so many people lost the right to even LIVE, right? What if it had been your borther of wife they killed?
That incensed "it's ok to skip the rules to get the bad guys" rethoric even escalated to the point of some people advocating genocide of the "favelas", the terminally poor neighborhoods the gangs (though the PCC is WAY more than a gang) use as hideouts and strongholds, and where millions of people live.
Sounds a lot like the reaction of many of our citizens to the rioting in Los Angeles after the trial of the police officers accused of beating Rodney King. Substitute blacks for "favelas."
Run around Little Green Footballs and you can find that sentiment replicated. Terrorists have no rights; ergo, those suspected of being terrorists also don't get any. It's the classical slippery slope.
I cannot speak for LGF. Under the Geneva Conventions, a detainee in a war gets a hearing to determine his status as a legal combatant, civilian or an illegal combatant who does not fall under the definitions of the other two categories.
Reportedly, all of our detainees have received these hearings. Hundreds have been found to be civilians or basically harmless and released.
However, once you are determined to be an illegal combatant at a hearing, you have no rights under international law except not to be tortured as defined under the Torture Convention. Illegal combatants can be legally executed on the spot. They live at Guantanomo at our pleasure.
Phoenician in the time of Romans:
ReplyDelete[from the post]:The administration also just used the same tactic to compel dismissal of a lawsuit brought by Khalid El-Masri, a German citizen who alleges -- with the support of German prosecutors -- that the U.S. Government abducted him, drugged him, flew him to multiple different torture-using countries as part of the administration's "rendition" program, only to then release him after five months when the U.S. realized it had abducted the wrong person.
When the terrorists set off a nuke in an American city, you're going to wonder why the rest of us aren't quite as sympathetic as we were come Sept. 11th.
That doesn't even make any sense. You need to work on your English skills a bit.
Now, as for the logic part: Why are you of the curious opinion that the gummint f**king up royally is going to save us from some (hypothetical) nuclear threat? Because that's what this was: The gummint spent many thousands of dollars flying an innocent person thousands of miles in a private jet only to torture him for five months to no result (and if they had managed to extract a 'confession' out of him, it would have been useless garbage). Talk about a waste of resources (and tax dollars). So you defend this incompetence? Why?
Now a personal question: Have you always been a panty-wetter?
Cheers,
The President is subject to virtually the entire federal criminal code so long as it does not seek to limit or eliminate an Article II power.
ReplyDeleteAnd since the President gets to decide what does or does not "seek to limit or eliminate an Article II power", this is no limitation at all. If the country passes by kidnapping and torturing people on the Presidential say-so then, congratulations, you have an elected dictatorship.
Now, as for the logic part: Why are you of the curious opinion that the gummint f**king up royally is going to save us from some (hypothetical) nuclear threat?
Learn to read.
i, I am not an American.
ii, I am disgusted at American policies and at America by virtue of condoning these policies.
iii, I'm not the only non-American with this opinion.
iv, A nuclear attack on an American city is a near certainty eventually.
v, It is unlikely that I will have much sympathy. Indeed, if the terrorists cite retaliation for your illegal occupation of Iraq, then a large part of my opinion will be that you got what you asked for.
So here we have an anti-american piece of eurotrash or other misfit sub-normal population group actively wishing for a nuclear attack killing 100,000 or more innocent civilians and stating in advance that these innocent civilians in the USA deserve to be melted by a band of 7th century crazies.
ReplyDeleteOK as far as it goes, but don't any of you moonbats here ever stop to pause and THINK about the company you keep and the company you attack?
When you moonbats are voting, and look around and see all the drug addicts and gang members and high school drop out losers all in the same line as you, after having determined with their most formidable and well trained intellect to vote for the same person you moonbats here think is so great, doesn't that ever give you pause that maybe you aren't so perceptive and intelligent as you constantly tell each other you are?
I mean really, when the regulars here are collegially passing messages back and forth with an avowd anti-american piece of shit who is actively wishing right hear in front of you that a 100,000 USA citzens be melted by a troop of cave dwelling, bat shit eating, burka wearing imbiciles with a nuclear bomb you have nothing adversarial to say to such a piece of shit?
And you wonder why people think the moonbats are anti-american, anti-security, anti-USA themselves.
When you hang out with anit-american envious and jeolous pieces of goat dung like Phoenician, how could you have any different opinion of yourselves.
Wake up!!! Cast off your pretenses and realize your taking sides with the brilliant minds of the lower 25% of the bell curve and the blantantly murderous anti-american pieces of crap such as this Phoenician asshole.
Says the "Dog"
Oh no, while hypatia is relatively new on the internets' comments -- Mona is not. While PITR may be new here, its comments are splattered everywhere. The same goes for DavidByron - eater of massive bandwidth on all blogs and banned universally (not really but he thinks so-- alhough ATB did, in fact). Bart seems to have settled in here. I'm sure he will become as much of an ingrate as ppgaz at balloon-juice. It seems that every venue has its pets.
ReplyDeleteMe? I prefer to stay here and bother ewo and hypatia. Every environment has its thorns.
And then there is the dog. Don't get me wrong, I have two. The both of them are good dogs, mostly. One is prone to digging, the other can't get the concept of housetraining, but I still have hope. I still have hope for the faux dog. As others have said to others in the comment section of this blog, bring it on internet dog. I am certain that I have lived through far worse than you have ever faced, lived (truly) in places you haven't even heard of, and in my old age, could take you out with little effort.
ReplyDeleteToo threatening for you? Seriously -- take your names and foolish naive notions somewhere else. (Not going to happen, I know. Pity nonetheless).
If you would like to talk about human rights -- I'll listen. Just so long as you drop the stupid pic. You give American Standard Rottweilers a bad name. They are decent creatures. You, not really.
David, I'm curious. What link did you follow to get here? You are very late in the game to be selling your wares.
ReplyDeleteHow did you find this blog? I'm serious curious. I know how I did and there was no evidence of you in that path. You showed up very late.
Can you give me the link that linked you here?
Just askin'
HWSNBN still has his pants on fire (but neither of his two neurones):
ReplyDeleteArne the Liar said...
I've been trashing HWSNBN's numerous lies for months now, and with documentation, examples, cites, and all. But HWSNBN thinks he can just go and call me a "liar" and that's enough to convince people. Did I mention he's an ignorant fool?
[Bart]: DOJ has never made such an argument. El Masri's case was dismissed for lack of evidence.
[Arne]: Nonsense. Flat-out wrong.
[Arne]: Just for the record, and for the dead-of-brain here such as HWSNBN:
From the judge's order:
"At issue is whether the assertion of the state secrets privilege by the United States is valid, and if so, whether this privilege prevents the case from proceeding."
As I explained, el Masri had no evidence of his own to proceed to trial....
HWSNBN misspells "asserted (and falsely so)". Now what I did above is "explained" ... complete with a quote from the opinion. Who you gonna believe, HWSNBN or your lying eyes?
... He was relying completely on classified information provided by the government in its answer and in discovery....
HWSNBN needs to titrate the Haldol up a notch. Or lay off the bottle. One of the two.
... Once the judge properly applied the "state secrets" privilege, el Masri was left with no case.
There will be an appeal and we will see how "proper" it was. Who knows, maybe someone will even take another look at Reynolds and say that in retrospect, that's a sterling example of why the privilege is a crock. But even if not, they may not uphold the privilege in tis particular case.
Nonetheless, irrelevant to the question under dispute here: The case was dismissed because the judge thought that no trial could be "fairly litigated" under the circumstances, assuming that the gummint needed to protect some "state secrets". He did not dismiss for lack of evidence (a point I covered in my last post, but which seems to elude the troll HWSNBN still). Of course, HWSNBN can prove me a liar by just quoting from the opinion where the judge dismissed for lack of evidence. And monkeys could fly out of "Criminal Prosecutor" DePalma's a$$ too ... and the latter is far more likely in my book.
On the other hand, if el Masri had any substantial admissible evidence identifying the men who allegedly detained him as agents of the United States, he could have proceeded to trial even without being able to discover classified materials possessed by the government.
Nonsense. The question was whether the inquiry might uncover (alleged) 'state secrets'. In fact, the gummint argued that it didn't matter whether they had done so or not; either way, they would be at a disadvantage in not being able to mount a defence without revealing these supposed 'state secrets' (from the opinion: "The applicability of the state secrets privilege is wholly independent of the truth or the falsity of the complaint's allegations.").
"That's some catch, that Catch-22."
"It's the best there is...."
This is the last time I explain this to you. Stop lying.
Ooooohhhhh. Li'l Bartie's getting frustrated. Wah, wah, wauuuuggghhhh.
To quote someone else of far greater intellect and humour than HWSNBN here: "'Shut up', he explained...."
;-)
[Arne]: HWSBNN snips his own comment about comparing Brazil to "perfectly legal interrogations" of "captured foreign illegal combatants", in the context of the discussion of El-Masri!!!:
HWSNBN: "Exactly how do these alleged Brazilian crimes possibly compare to with perfectly legal interrogation (which does not fall under the definition of torture to which the US agreed) of captured foreign illegal combatants and the perfectly legal liberation of Iraq pursuant to a congressional AUMF and several UN resolutions from a tyrant who has murdered more than 300,000 of his own citizens?"
Lie #2. Do you see me allege anywhere that el Masri is an illegal enemy combatant or even mention el Masri?
I have to wonder WTF HWSNBN is talking about here then. Sounds like he's having a conversation with a guy on Pluto. Certainly isn't this thread where we were talking about ... El-Masri!!!.
But just for the record, even were HWSNBN correct in his last statement WRT WTF he was talking about unbeknownst to any rational human beings, nonetheless my statement above would not be a lie, contrary to the troll HWSNBN's assertion. But I should apologise; that fact is obvious to anyone with a functioning neocortex. Sorry, folks.
[Arne]: Note for doubters of his veracity: He filed his claim against the owners of the airplane that "rendered" him off to Afghanistan (a U.S. company). There's independent records of the flight. And his account is similar to that of others as well. Then we have the Abu Ghraib pictures that make undeniable that these types of abuses are happening....
This is not evidence that the men who allegedly kidnapped him were agents of the US, that either them or he were on this flight or that el Masri was tortured.
Sure it is. Circumstantial, but nonetheless evidence. HWSNBN might want a refresher course on the FRE. You know. Like FRE Rule 401.... Like I said, first year law school stuff....
el Masri does not allege he was sent to Abu Ghraib, thus these photos are irrelevant and inadmissible as evidence.
Depends on the allegations. You know, FRE Rule 406. ;-)
[HWSNBN]: Good thing then that physical beatings are not one of the coercive interrogation techniques approved by DoD.
[Arne]: Let me fix the typo there:
"Good thing then that physical beatings that result in death or organ failure, at least most of the time, are not one of the coercive interrogation techniques approved by DoD. OTOH...."
Lie #3. Nothing like that is among the interrogation techniques approved by DoD.
HWSNBN hasn't been reading the memos of the maladministration, IC.... They really did put up an -- ummmm, "interesting" -- definition of "torture", one which earned them quite a bit of scorn from many people....
[HWSNBN]: El Masri is not a US citizen and the alleged damages did not occur in the US. Therefore, he only has a limited statutory right around US sovereign immunity to bring a civil suit.
[Arne]: The judge explained under what grounds El-Masri was suing. The phrase "limited statutory right" is just plain wrong in this context: The statutory (and constitutional) bases for the suit was explained, and were not under dispute. HWSNBNB's term "limited statutory right" is just pure bafflegab.
This is probably ignorance and not a lie.
You said it, not me, Bart. But I still go for "lie". Or "deliberate obfuscation". How's that?
Normally, a citizen or non citizen may not sue the government under the doctrine of sovereign immunity. Congress has enacted a statute allowing civil suits against the government under limited circumstances.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The ol' "sovereign immunity". You know, I seem to remember that they kicked the King's butt over two hundred years ago and told him to shove it, and his "sovereign immunity" with it. Yes, there's folks that claim that there's some "doctrine of sovereign immunity", but in my mind that's horsepuckey. HWSNBN will not be able to find a single word in the U.S. Constitution that says the federal gummint may entertain suits against itself only when it specifically deigns to do so.
If there's a statute that gives a cause of action to someone to sue, they can sue. If there's a statute that limits a couse of action under the provisions of the statute to certain suits or plaintiffs, it is limited to certain suits or plaintiffs. I'd note that pretty much anyone is permitted to make civil rights claims (with the exception of, for example, some discrimination claims where right to sue is conditioned on having made an EEOC claim first, etc.) or claims of a violation of their constitutional rights. Not that the "lawyer" Mr. DePalma would know about that; hell, that's lawyerese.... ROFL.
In this particular case, no one on any side of the case at bar made any such claim of "sovereign immunity" (or more accurately and.or on point, of a statutory bar to El-Masri's suit). HWSNBN is just full'o'shite here. Which is really the crux of the matter: El-Masri wasn't "privileged" or "lucky" to get in the court door; he was just following the law, HWSNBN's insinuations that he really ought not be there in fairness notwithstanding....
[HWSNBN]: El Masri filed a civil complaint alleging that unknown men detained and tortured him and that these men were part of a CIA rendition program.
[HWSNBN]: However, the order notes that El Masri did not offer a scrap of evidence to back up his claim that these men were agents of the United States, only his allegations and media reports derived from his allegations.
[Arne]: From the order: "In his complaint, El-Masri alleges that documentary evidence supports his recollection. He claims aviation documents show that late on the evening of January 23, 2004, a Boeing business jet owned by defendant Premier Executive Transport Services and operated by defendant Aero Contractors Limited flew from Skopje, Macedonia to Kabul, Afghanistan with a brief stop in Baghdad Iraq. This documnetary evidence is attached..."
Which part of "El Masri did not offer a scrap of evidence to back up his claim that these men were agents of the United States" did you not comprehend? ....
What part of "allegation" does HWSNBN not understand? If he's under the curious impression that El-Masri's allegations offered to the court are not "evidence", I'd be loath to hire him as an attorney. Think about that, any Colorado Springs drunks out there lurking....
Flight information is not evidence that these men were agents of the United States.
HWSNBN still seems to be uncomprehending of FRE RULE 401. The first substantive rule. The one they do on the first day of class. Pathetic.....
Next time you get called for jury duty, you can legitimately tell the judge that you should be excused because you are too stupid to understand basic evidence.
I'm afraid that I do understand "basic evidence". I have pity on Mr. DePalma, "Criminal Prosecutor", Esq.'s clients ... if there are any.
[Arne]: Not to mention the fact that "criminal prosecutor" Mr. DePalma here should know that opposition to a 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss or motion for summary judgement doesn't require evidence be presented; for purposes of the motion, the facts are presumed as alleged by the non-moving party. You know, this is first year law school stuff. HWSNBN truly has eedjits for clients (if he has any).
You are half right.
Motions to dismiss take the allegations in the complaint as fact for the purposes of the motion.
He's repeating what I said. I assume he thinks that's profound ... but then again, that may be the closest he ever gets to such....
However, motions for summary judgment require the submission of proof of sufficient evidence to make out a prima facie claim. This is usually done through affidavits.
And???? The moron thinks that the judge would have ruled on the "state secrets" stuff if there had been insufficient facts alleged to sustain a verdict in the favour of the plaintiff. Nonsense, of course.
FWIW, Paula Jones's case floundered on these rocks: While she alleged a lot of things, even if they were all taken as in her favour for purposes of decision, she wouldn't have had a legally supportable verdict in her favour. IOW, she failed to alleged facts that actually would constitute actual sexual harassment if true, and her case was tossed on SJ. She had incompetent lawyers, I should add (BTW, I read the briefs and predicted the outcome on this one; while the "pundits" were surprised, I was saying "I toldja so...").
As I was saying, the allegations are quite sufficient for a cause of action under both the Fifth Amendment and the Alien Tort Statute to prevail. HWSNBN is bllowing it out his a$$ when he claims that there was no "evidence".
Although this motion is fashioned as a motion to dismiss, it is really more akin to a motion for summary judgment because the government is seeking to bar discovery and then claims that there would be insufficient evidence to proceed.
Nope. They were claiming quite simply (and HWSNBN would know this if he bothered to read something) that allowing the case to proceed at all would risk revealing "state secrets". Pure and simple. Read the opinion.
[Arne]: But funny about the parts of the order that HWSNBN leaves out.... You know, things like beatings and sodomy. I get the feeling that HWSNBN kind of likes those parts ... but he ain't gonna admit it in public.
That is because these parts are irrelevant to the motion at hand....
Nah. It's because HWSNBN doesn't want to admit that his master Dubya's gummint is incompetent, butal, and sadistic.
El Masri himself can testify to this. The issue addressed by the motion is whether agents of the US were involved.
Nope. I quoted the "issue" (as the judge himself stated it) above. HWSNBN thinks he knows better than the judge. That's a recipe for disaster in a courtroom. Don't -- i repeat, DON'T -- even think of hiring Mr. Harold "Bart" DePalma, Esq., "student 'Criminal Prosecutor'" and bowhard extraordinaire, of Colorado Springs, CO, as your defence attorney, even if all you need is someone to plead your DWI down a notch. You'll be sorry, believe me.
Pwn3d.
Cheers,
HWSNBN engages in a lot of other prevarication and smoke blowing before coming up with this:
ReplyDeleteIllegal combatants can be legally executed on the spot. They live at Guantanomo at our pleasure.
Combine that with his insistence that "illegal combatants" are those so designated by Commander Codpiece or his minions, and perhaps every sentient being here will see why Glenn's book is so very important.
Thanks, Bart, for making that crystal clear.
Cheers,
I don't have time right now to take up davidbyron's argument and discuss it point-by-point. I do want to affirm that some of what he says makes a lot of sense, and I must admit that I identify with some of the "feelings" that his argument evokes.
ReplyDeleteIn lieu of tackling the thorny issues he proposes--and the somewhat star mannish nature of his logic--I suggest that he and others take a look at an article I skimmed through today by the moral philosopher Thomas Nagel.
Nagel's article, The Problem of Global Justice, undertakes the investigation of what global justice might look like in the world today. He winnows the main theses down to two, cosmopolitanism and a Rawlsian political framework. Eventually, he opts for the Rawlsian framework because, he says, it reflects more the nature of the current political realities.
Now, there's not enough space here to undertake an exposition of Nagel's finely honed moral analysis. I'll simply repeat here his conclusion--a conclusion that I find a morally objectionable but certainly quite cogent and coherent.
Now my reason for boring everyone with what many will probably consider the ramblings of an ivory tower philosopher. While I understand the sentiment expressed in this view, Nagel's argument is indeed valid because it does do what eh says it does: reflects the present-day political options and landscape. In particular, I believe that his thought gives some insight into the reason that the Democrats have not opposed the Bush foreign policy in Iraq and Perhaps Iran.
Anyway, here are some of the passages that strike me as indicative of how the insiders of both parties are thinking with regard to the Mideast:
So I close with a speculation. While it is conceivable in theory that political authority should be created in response to an antecedent demand for legitimacy, I believe this is unlikely to happen in practice. What is more likely is the increase and deployment of power in the interests of those who hold it, followed by a gradual growth of pressure to
make its exercise more just, and to free its organization from the historical legacy of the balance of forces that went into its creation. Unjust and illegitimate regimes are the necessary precursors of the progress toward legitimacy and democracy, because they create the centralized power that can then be contested, and perhaps turned in other directions without being destroyed. For this reason, I believe the most likely path toward some version of global justice is through the creation of patently unjust and illegitimate global structures of power that are tolerable to the interests of the most powerful current nation-states. Only in that way will institutions come into being that are worth taking over in the service of more democratic purposes, and only in that way will there be something concrete for the demand for legitimacy to go to work on. (p. 146)
....
My conclusion, though it presupposes a conception of justice that Hobbes did not accept, is Hobbesian in spirit: the path from anarchy to justice must go through injustice. It is often unclear whether, for a given problem, international anarchy is preferable to international injustice. But if we accept the political conception, the global scope of justice will expand only through developments that first increase the injustice of the world by introducing effective but illegitimate institutions to which the standards of justice apply, standards by which we may hope they will eventually be transformed. An example, perhaps, of the cunning of history. (p. 147)
Phoenician in a time of romans:
ReplyDeleteLearn to read.
i, I am not an American.
ii, I am disgusted at American policies and at America by virtue of condoning these policies.
iii, I'm not the only non-American with this opinion.
iv, A nuclear attack on an American city is a near certainty eventually.
v, It is unlikely that I will have much sympathy. Indeed, if the terrorists cite retaliation for your illegal occupation of Iraq, then a large part of my opinion will be that you got what you asked for.
I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. Perhaps I should have been clued in by the fact that your statement didn't seem to make sense to me. I hope you forgive me; we get too many trolls around here with the knee-jerk "What about suitcase nukes in our basements? What'll you say then? Then you'll be sorry" type hysteria, and I'm a bit on hair-trigger. You sounded at first blush too close to that kind of stuff, and I let fly.
Now I see what you were saying (should perhaps have caught it the first time). Yes, there will be little weeping abroud the next time, now that the U.S. has acted so execrably and unjustly (and not only to foreigners, but also to its own) purportedly in response to the Satanic Infidel Apostate Terra-ists. The U.S. is asking for it, and they shouldn't be surprised.
I apologise for any insinuation you were a "bed wetter". I was wrong.
I will try to read more carefully next time. OK?
Cheers,
"The Dog" seems to have reading problmes as well:
ReplyDeleteSo here we have an anti-american piece of eurotrash or other misfit sub-normal population group actively wishing for a nuclear attack killing 100,000 or more innocent civilians and stating in advance that these innocent civilians in the USA deserve to be melted by a band of 7th century crazies.
Well, this time, I read what Phoenician said with a bit more care. While I have to admit I'm not blameless myself, I must state that "The Dog" just doan know how to reed..... Which surprises nobody here.
Cheers,
"The Dog":
ReplyDelete[after a racist, bigoted diatribe, exudes this miasma]:
Wake up!!! Cast off your pretenses and realize your taking sides with the brilliant minds of the lower 25% of the bell curve and the blantantly murderous anti-american pieces of crap such as this Phoenician asshole.
Hmmm. I don't recall agreeing with you, Bart, notherbob2, or Gedaliya on anything. Refresh my memory; maybe I slipped up there once.
Cheers,
So here we have an anti-american piece of eurotrash or other misfit sub-normal population group actively wishing for a nuclear attack killing 100,000 or more innocent civilians and stating in advance that these innocent civilians in the USA deserve to be melted by a band of 7th century crazies.
ReplyDeleteAgain, learn to read. Provide proof of the bits in bold or STFU, asshole.
I cannot speak for LGF. Under the Geneva Conventions, a detainee in a war gets a hearing to determine his status as a legal combatant, civilian or an illegal combatant who does not fall under the definitions of the other two categories.
ReplyDeleteExact cite, please.
If you're talking about Article Five of the Third Geneva Convention, then feel free to show a single neutral party that would consider a bunch of military officers of one side to constitute "a competant tribunal". If the boot was on the other foot - if Iraqis were kidnapping US soldiers, giving them a trial and condemning them to death on their own authority, you'd consider it murder.
What you are doing in Gitmo and elsewhere is criminal. You kidnap people, deprive them of their legal rights, and abuse them. Some may be terrorists, many are not. And please don't bother trying to tell us only US law applies.
It is contemptable. In that America condones it, and it does, it makes America contemptable.
armagednoutahere:
ReplyDeleteBart, what sense would it make for the govt to avoid a trial that would prove to the world the CIA didn't pick up El-Masri? Are you really claiming the CIA didn't do it, and therefore can't possibly be proven to have done so by El-Masri, but the US will allow the world to believe these terrible things when a trial would prove the CIA innocent? When you find yourself making arguments that at bottom are just absurd, don't even you start to question your loyalties.
Actually, sad to say, but they have that covered. See the opinion. The ruse is that if they say both that 'national security' is at stake and also claim non-involvement in this specific case, that would give the inference in other cases where the "state secret privilege" is invoked that the alleged facts are indeed true, indirectly 'revealikng' "state secrets" in that case.... See pp. 11-12 of the opinion.
Yossarian: "That's some catch, that Catch-22."
Doc Daneeka: "It's the best there is...."
Joseph Heller was a very perceptive -- and prescient -- man. And a veteran, I might add. I think that John Yoo and company must have adapted the book as an instruction manual. But Yoo didn't have the benefit of a military "education", as Heller did. HWSNBN reminds me of Minderbinder. But you're free to differ....
Cheers,
robert 1014, great posts.
ReplyDeleteGlenn writes:
"You put Addington, Yoo, and Gonzales in a room, and there was a race to see who was tougher than the rest and how expansive they could be with respect to presidential power," says a former Justice Department official.
Good thing Orin Kerr wasn't in the room or the race would be over.
Daphne, you are by far the most mean-spirited person who has ever posted on this blog and I have been reading it since near its inception. That's another race where there isn't any contest.
My theory is that the reason your I.Q. is so low is because there's no room for any brains in your body because it is filled to capacity with raw, bubbling hatred.
See a psychiatrist.
There has been much talk on this blog about the often despicable actions of commenters on blogs, mostly on the right.
ReplyDeleteOne group of commenters who I have found above the cut are many of the people who post on Huffington Post.
I think that site represents a Democratic slant, but often its Democratic posters display an admirable willingness to turn on someone in their own party because the it is the ideas in which they believe that are most important to them.
Alan Dershowitz, one of the most despicable people on the planet, wrote a blog there a little while back blasting the study on the Zionist Lobby and he got what he deserved from the commenters, many of whom condemned him for his advocacy of torture.
Now there is a new post up by Dershowitz in which he blasts Katherine Harris for being a crook.
I was thinking the commenters might now write in praise of him because he had a common enemy with him.
My own quick visceral response was to be thinking that if I lived in Florida I would definitely vote for Katherine Harris. The single fact that Dershowitz was condemning her would trump everything else for me. That's how much I despise what he stands for.
So I was once again impressed with the commenters who came out vehemently blasting Dershowitz. They didn't sound like partisan commenters to me but people whose conscience he had really offended who were having the same visceral response to him that I was.
Here are some of the comments which were marked as "favorites":
↓Readers' Favorite Comments
Mr.Dershowitz may be defending many of the Zionists,neo-cons and armageddonists who supported the illegal pre-emptive war in Iraq, in the near future. Wasn't Mr. Dershowitz a strong supporter of both the war and Jack Abramoff? Peace
- imhotep, 05.23.2006
Dershowitz whould know about being a crook. He blasted Prof Mearsheimer & Prof Walt. Dershowitz advocated a case FOR TORTURE. How is Huffington, allowing this bigot a forum. May have to stop, viewing Huffington. Dershowitz is part of zionist, pro war Neo-con group.
- trumanstar, 05.23.2006
Looks like Harris is going to need a good lawyer. Maybe you could represent her Mr. Dershowitz, or is campaign finance violations not high-profile enough for you? Claus Von Bulow,Patricia Hearst, Leona Helmsley, Jim Bakker, Mike Tyson, O.J. Simpson were good enough for you and they were charged with offenses including murder. I suppose all THOSE people were innocent?
- Danothemoderateguy, 05.23.2006
It's weird, but if Alan Dershowitz
says there's something rotten about
Katherine Harris, then it seems all the
more likely she has some redeeming
characteristic.
- Doofus, 05.23.2006
Of course Katherine Harris is a crook (and more, possibly a criminal as well for her role in the theft of the Florida election).
But you? Alan Dershowitz-Still a Plagiarist.
- LiberalWeenie, 05.23.2006
Hey. I'm not saying that Katherine Harris didn't do everything that Dershowitz accuses her of doing. I'm saying that if she waived a check for $1,000,000 in front of his face he'd defend her in a hot second. He never met a guilty rich person he didn't like.
Often the commenters at that site have a lot more principle than Arianna Huffington. What does it say about a woman who allows a person who has come out strongly in favor of torture and stands for everything that is corrupt and evil to post a blog there?
The Dog's Dogfather. I would shoot either of them on sight. Dime sized hole right between the eyes.
ReplyDeleteDaphne, you are by far the most mean-spirited person who has ever posted on this blog and I have been reading it since near its inception.
I have yet to read which comment he is referring to, Daphne, but I'm sure I will approve of it. Pay no attention to this little daisy. I call him Casper Milquetoast.
armagednoutahere:
ReplyDelete'Cause thats the most absurd thing I've ever heard of. It tells me any time they invoke state secrets, the claims they're avoiding either affirming or denying are true, are, in fact, true.
Actually, I think it's the other way around (and while slightly more "logical", the result is even more perverse):
The gummint is saying that they must have an official policy neither to affirm or deny any allegations which might reflect on what they're doing, even if they're not doing anything. You see, "not doing anything", if it's established as a judicially noticed "fact", is also a "state secret" for several reasons:
1). It tips off the Terra-ists to the secret policies (or lack thereof) of the gummint and thus helps them, thus harming the nation by the revelation of this "secret" non-policy (or policy of doing nothing). You'll see a variant of this excuse put forth by HWSNBN in past threads where he wants to simultaneously defend the maladministration from allegations they are doing stuff that most people would think quite wrong, and also to insist that the maladministration must not be held to account.
2). Such an admission of non-action in one specific case might be seen as an "assent by silence" to other allegations of similar actions in other cases where the gummint (for reasons of honesty, heh-heh-heh) cannot truthfully both invoke the "state secrets privilege" and deny the specific alllegations. This is the excuse put forth in the El-Masri case.
Of course, this bafflegab is pernicious.
The gummint makes a "state secret privilege" motion in a case ("pick a case. any case..."). The plaintiff says: "Now, waiddaminit, I didn's say anything about state secrets". The gummint says: "Well, even if you didn't, we did, and this case might risk exposing 'state secrets'. Not that we actually did anything that might be surreptitious. But even the fact that we didn't (and we're not saying we didn't) is 'Top Secret' as well, and to be perfectly honest, we can't even tell you what we're talking about."
And down the rabbit-hole we go....
Glenn ought to think about adding some stuff on this if he does a second edition or a second book. The "mind" of the maladministration is truly fascinating.
One thing of note is that the opinion seems to make a distinction between official acknowledgement of a fact and what is generally known anyway. Even if pretty much every person of sapience knows that El-Masri was kidnapped, rendered, and mistreated, the gummint is to be afforded the privilege of "plausible deniability", the chance to say, "well, that may not be true, we just aren't saying", because even a hint of either acknowledgement or denial in court carries so much more weight. Like people aren't going to figure things out for themselves without this. Heh. Such a reverence for the "truth" makes me just want to stand up and salute....
Cheers,
FWIW, I have to laugh at the gummint brief on the motion to dismiss in the El-Masri case:
ReplyDelete"The state secrets privilege is without peer among government privileges. As a manifestation of the President's Article I powers to conduct foreign affairs and provide for the national defense, the state secrets privilege has constitutional underpinnings."
Wonder if they put that in the Table of Authorities..... ;-)
D'ya think they hired HWSNBN to help write the brief?
Cheers,
bart said:
ReplyDeleteA foreign group is either state or non state actor of two or more persons.
An agent is a person acting on behalf of the group.
For the love of God, bart, you skipped the most important part of my question- when is an American citizen considered to be a "foreign agent"? How is that established?
bart said:
In contrast, intelligence gathering pretty much covers everything else so long as it is directed against a foreign group and it agents in the US.
Well, we're still hanging on what it means to be a "foreign agent", aren't we? When is intelligence gathering without a warrant allowed on an American citizen, (presumably because he/she has been designated a "foreign agent")? How is that designation of "foreign agent" status established?
bart said:
Carter was the moron who agreed to give away some of his Article II powers by signing FISA.
So, again, you believe FISA un-Constitutionally constrains the President's Article II powers? Wow. Just out of curiosity, how long have you believed this? When did you first state that FISA is un-Constitutional? 1980? 1990? 2000?
Regardless of whether Carter was a "moron" or not, you yourself just admitted that the Article II powers you cite have already been "given away". If Article II powers have already been "given away", as you state, doesn't that mean that no later President had those powers anymore?
bart said:
Clinton made a very similar argument to search the home of Aldrich Ames.
No, he didn't, and more importantly, I think you know that. Jamie Gorelick testified to the President's "inherent authority" in the absence of FISA legislation (in Clinton's case, physical searches). Never did she mention that FISA was an un-Constitutional constraint to the President's Article II powers.
By the way, Congress disagreed with the "inherent authority" argument and inserted legislation to cover physical searches. The Clinton Administration abided by the new requirements.
Presidential activity in the absence of legislation is far, far different than Presidential activity in violation of legislation. I think you know that.
bart said:
I have no idea what George I may have done.
In fact, he never made any argument that FISA was un-Constitutional, isn't that correct? And Reagan? Reagan never claimed FISA was un-Constitutional, isn't that correct?
Glenn:
ReplyDeleteYou were wondering why the sudden spike in the use of the state secrets evidence privilege...
cynic librarian said...
wired.com's blog has some interesting thoughts on the new surveillance laws:
Congress is moving on NSA legislation and Justice Department lawyers are swamped by the number of NSA-related, according to this great little round-up from National Journal's Sarah Lai Stirland:
In federal courts around the nation, meanwhile, the administration is busy fighting legal challenges to its wiretapping authority.
The Justice Department is scheduled to file responses to two lawsuits brought by civil-liberties groups in Michigan and New York on Friday. The two courts gave Justice more time to file after department attorneys requested it.
In a filing with a federal district court in New York last week, the attorneys said they were overwhelmed by the workload posed by several NSA-related lawsuits being filed around the country. The attorneys also said department heads must approve the proposed legal argument in the case. They plan to argue that the wiretapping involves military and state secrets and that the case should be dismissed.
That is the same argument Justice made to a federal court in San Francisco, where the Electronic Frontier Foundation has launched a class-action lawsuit against AT&T for allegedly giving the government consumer telephone records. Justice intervened and asked the court to dismiss the case because the facts involve a state secret that, if revealed, could jeopardize national security. Justice and EFF are scheduled to submit their arguments on that point sometime Monday.
http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=34136&sid=28
armagednoutahere:
ReplyDeleteAre you an attorney? Or did you say at one point you went to law school and didn't go into law? Your blog says something about telecommunications I think, or am I thinking of someone else? Anyway, you're amazingly astute, and enjoyable to read.
IANAL. I did do a couple years law school (Boalt), but for various reasons dropped out. I would not have made a very good layer anyway; one thing that's deadly to legal practise is timeliness, and I suck at that.... I would have made a good courtroom attorney, though (did well in moot court and civil advocacy practicum, although one judge who was "hearing" the moot court stuff told me I'd have to cut my hair; guess I'm no Ron Kuby).
I did learn a few things (outside of law itself): 1). You can learn law without going to school (which is true of many subjects [but not surgery]). 2). Most of what lawyers do is boring, boring, boring. 3). There's little (and dwindling) money in public interest law and you have to keep your day job if you want to do this. 4). The above-mentioned fact that a legal career wouldn't have been a very good match for my personal proclivities.
I am indeed in telecommunications (at least for this moment in a peripatetic career). In fact, I have a fair bit of experience in the CALEA end of things and the technology of intercepts as well as of telecommunications in general. This career suits me fine (although I do keep a leery eye on the incursions on our freedoms). And I'm not quite as involved in the CALEA stuff at the moment. I also have a background in biology, sciences in general, and an interest in SCUBA and fishes ... see my blog for some neat pix.
Thanks for the kind words.
Cheers,
What the hell does HWSNBN stand for?
ReplyDelete(H)e (W)ho (S)hall (N)ot (B)e (N)amed-- onaccounta trolls just want attention and to see they names up on the screen
ReplyDeletearmagednoutahere:
ReplyDeleteWhat amazes me is that they would think they're accomplishing anything other than making themselves look guilty.
Yes, in the reality-based world, this is true. Similar concerns pertain to people who "plead the Fifth", which is why I have advocated (many years ago on Usenet, for one) that anyone that wants to uphold American values and civil liberties should "plead the fifth" on a regular basis if not all the time) just for the hell of it, particularly when compelled to testify. Were this a common practise, there wouldn't be the implicit "guilt" associated with "pleading the Fifth", and it would be seen more as a right that we all have, rather than only a legal dodge for scummy criminals. Civil liberties are rights of us all (consider the right to privacy, for one) (and if such rights were in fact just dodges for criminals, they'd be much harder to defend as "rights" or even prudent policy).
... They refuse to deny or affirm in all cases, but the fact that they're not admitting guilt is by itself a claim of innocence of some kind, isn't it? I mean, if someone sues the govt and they do anything but come clean and pay up, they're making a claim of innocence of some sort, aren't they? ...
To some extend, yes. I think the response to some that say that El-Masri got the shaft here is that he ought to rely on the legislature or the executive to do right by him. Of course, if they did that (fat chance, you Terra-ist, you!), they'd just be confirming that the CIA was involved ... but there's a smokescreen of plausible deniability if it's not the people directly responsible admitting "guilt" (or being found to be at fault). But the chances of El-Masri getting a dime outta the maladministration or their cronies in Congress are non-existent.
Or are they saying we might be guilty but to admit it would reveal state secrets so we can't even do that?
It's more "Alice In Wonderland" than that: Even a claim that we never render anyone -- even if true -- reveals "state secrets" (in revealing operational parameters of our intelligence programs). Such a legal "admission" would give the Terra-ists information about how to exploit or evade our "intelligence" programs, dontcha see? In fact, I think this very argument was made publicly as to whether we ought to have a policy (or a law) specfiying that we don't torture people (or don't torture them in certain ways).
Whether they deny claims in one case and fail to in others, or deny them in all cases but claim its state secrets so they can't show the proof of their innocence, or whether they just say "we just can't say" in all cases where they pull a "state secrets," the overall effect is to admit guilt to the real world people out here watching them make their adolescent excuses.
True, I think, in practise. Compounded here by the fact that El-Masri had independent evidence (despite the bloviations of HWSNBN) as to the events in question, not to mention leaks about such programs, which is publicly known. The public (and any Terra-ists) are not constrained by either the "state secrets privilege" logic, nor the rules of evidence, and can figure things out themselves. The brief in opposition to the motion to dismiss made such arguments, saying that the information was public anyway, but the judge rejected this argument. See, the Terra-ists won't be absolutely sure we do this kind of stuff unless the gummint officially confirms it, and this nagging doubt will give them sleepless nights and that's a "good thing". Conveniently ignoring the fact that if the gummint is doing so -- and actually catching some Terra-ists -- the Terra-ists would be the first to know.
In the real world, any time the govt is accused of something they're not guilty of, they would jump at the chance to clear themselves.
One would think. Might be of more worth than the theoretical and absurd "value" in keeping such programs (or lack of such) from being "officially" acknowledged and keeping the Terra-ists on tenterhooks. One could even argue that an official admission of the existence of such programs might be of more tactical value in terms of discouraging or deterring terrorism.
But such logic doesn't penetrate the legal realm here. You, of course, are free to draw your own conclusion as to the motivations behind the gummint denials.... Occam's razor springs to mind: What's the most straight-forward explanation for the gummint behaviour? Any thinking person can figure this one out....
Failure to do this is seen as an admission of guilt in the eyes of real people (and other govts, I should think) in the world.
Indeed. No one else is compelled to accept or follow the gummint "logic" in their argument here. But the gummint is good at pretending. That pretty much sums up our maladministration.
Cheers,
[I said]:
ReplyDeleten fact, I think this very argument was made publicly as to whether we ought to have a policy (or a law) specfiying that we don't torture people (or don't torture them in certain ways).
Or, to put it more clearly: We ought to let people know that we (may) behave lawlessly -- outside the rules -- just so 'they' know we can be bad-asses and tremble in their boots. We're willing to "fight dirty".
What an epitaph for a country that used to be a paragon of civil liberty and the alleged inventor and patentee of a Constitution and the rule of law (nevermind that Iceland actually beat us to the punch by over half a millenium)....
Cheers,